1 Monday, 27 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Zupljanin not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
7 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Good morning to everyone. Before I call for the appearances,
11 the -- whereas the parties are aware as to why we didn't sit next week --
12 last week, I'm sorry, the -- before we begin today's proceedings, I wish
13 to state publicly for the record that the -- last week the Trial Chamber
14 and Defence counsel and support staff did have a site visit and the --
15 whereas it was obviously an expensive exercise, the inestimatable value
16 of being able to see for ourselves, particularly those of us who are the
17 triers of the facts, is something which will obviously resound to the
18 benefit of the final judgement when we come to write it and we will be
19 issuing formal letters of thanks to those concerned, but I would wish at
20 this point to thank the Registry who would have facilitated this, the
21 support staff, the interpreters, the security persons, and especially the
22 authorities in Bosnia
23 were there. And of course the co-operation of counsel on both sides, and
24 we are all agreed that it was a quite useful exercise, which as I said
25 would be of ultimate benefit to all of us when we come to the end of this
2 Yes, may I have the appearances, please.
3 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. Welcome back. I'm
4 Tom Hannis, along with Jasmina Bosnjakovic for the Prosecution.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
6 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence
7 this morning. Thank you.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
9 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
10 Our client is not present in the court. He already signed a waiver and
11 will not be in the court until Wednesday.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 Before I continue, I see that according to the transcript I said
14 at line 14 Trial Chamber and Defence counsel, of course I meant counsel
15 on both sides. Thank you.
16 Mr. Hannis, we are given to understand that there is a
17 application which the OTP has to make first thing this morning.
18 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We filed a written application.
19 The next witness is ST-215. I met with him for the first time on Friday,
20 and for the first time in our contacts with him he indicated that he
21 wished to have certain protective measures. So we filed a written motion
22 on Friday indicating that he was seeking to have the protective measures
23 of a pseudonym and voice -- and image distortion. What I proposed to do
24 was because of the short notice is to have him come in in private session
25 and he can answer Your Honours' questions about why he thinks he needs
1 those measures. I said briefly in the motion his concerns, but I think
2 it's better addressed with you particularly one-on-one with him.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 Before we go into closed session, there is one housekeeping
5 matter which -- just in the event that I forget it later. We have
6 been -- I think everybody is aware of the problems with Courtroom II, and
7 as a consequence we have been requested to move tomorrow's sitting to the
8 afternoon instead of the morning. The Trial Chamber has decided that we
9 have little choice in the matter. I only trust that this is -- that
10 there is no inconvenience to counsel by this move. So you are on notice
11 that when we take the adjournment today we will be resuming I believe in
12 Courtroom I, thank you, at 2.15 tomorrow. Yes. So we go into closed
13 session. Yes, closed session.
14 [Closed session]
11 Pages 14845-14849 redacted. Closed session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but I understand that there is a face
19 distortion on the internet, but he's open to the public. Yes, he needs
20 the screens, yes.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 exhibit under seal.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. That will be Exhibit P1604 under seal,
24 Your Honours.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't know if we put on the record
1 that the witness looked at it and confirmed that the information is
2 correct as far as his name and date of birth. We can do that I guess
3 when we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 Now the blinds can be opened.
6 Mr. Witness, before I invite Mr. Hannis for the Prosecution to
7 begin, there are a few more preliminary questions which I would put to
8 you. The -- some of the matters have already been dealt with in the
9 course of the preliminary examination that we would have had dealing with
10 the application for protective measures. The first question I would ask
11 you to confirm is that the pseudonym sheet which was handed to you by the
12 Prosecution and which you've signed accurately states your name and date
13 of birth?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE HALL
23 I'm reminded that we need to go into private session to deal with
24 this. Thanks.
25 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE HALL
12 or before any of the courts in any of the countries of the former
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the --
17 JUDGE HALL
18 hearing and the procedure of the Tribunal is the side calling you will
19 begin by asking you questions.
20 Mr. Hannis, could you remind me as to how much time you've
21 indicated you will spend with this witness.
22 MR. HANNIS: Four hours, Your Honour, I believe is what we asked
23 and been given. I hope to be a bit shorter.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not more than two
2 JUDGE HALL
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and perhaps even less than
6 JUDGE HALL
7 Mr. Krgovic?
8 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, we will probably not cross-examine
9 this witness.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 So you would have heard, sir, from what has just passed between
12 the Bench and counsel that the total time that the examination --
13 questions by counsel would take is approximately a little less than six,
14 six and a half hours. Now, the -- as I said, the Prosecution would
15 begin, then counsel for Mr. Stanisic would have questions of you.
16 Counsel for Mr. Zupljanin has indicated that he doesn't intend to
17 cross-examine. Counsel for the Prosecution would then have a right to
18 re-examine you, and then at that stage or indeed at any earlier stage the
19 Bench may have questions for you. For technical reasons and also for the
20 comfort of witnesses and counsel and everyone concerned, the
21 sessions - and you heard Mr. Cvijetic use the word "sessions" - are of no
22 more than 90 minutes in length, indeed they are more like an hour and 20
23 minutes. And the technical reasons the tapes used by which these
24 recordings are memorialised have to be changed, and, as I said, it also
25 allows for the comfort and convenience of everyone else. And we usually
1 begin -- this is a morning sitting so we would sit from 9.00 in the
2 morning until 1.45, but as I said between -- that is broken up into
3 sessions to allow for the technical and other matters to which I have
5 Now for certain reasons, tomorrow afternoon -- because your
6 testimony would not have been completed by the time we rise today at
7 1.45, we would be sitting in the afternoon. So we would sit from 2.15 in
8 the afternoon until 7.00 p.m.
9 Now, notwithstanding those breaks to which I have referred, if at
10 any time there is any reason why you would need to take a break please
11 indicate it to the Trial Chamber and we would of course accommodate with
13 And with that I would invite Mr. Hannis to begin his
15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 WITNESS: ST-215
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
19 Q. Witness ST-215, let me ask you a few additional background
20 questions and I think I can do this in open session. Can you tell us
21 where you lived in 1990 through 1992?
22 A. From 1990 to 1992 I resided in Zvornik.
23 Q. And prior to the formation of the national or the multi-party
24 system in the former Bosnia
1 A. I was.
2 Q. Once the multi-party system was established, did you become the
3 member of some other political party; and if so, which one?
4 A. I became a member of the SDS
5 member of.
6 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, if we could go into private
7 session for the next couple of questions, I'm asking something that's
8 more specifically identifying.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 [Private session]
11 Page 14856 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 Q. Sir, as a member of the SDS
12 of certain instructions issued in late December 1991 for the organisation
13 and activities of the Serb people in Bosnia?
14 A. Yes. At the group of Serbian members of the Assembly of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina
16 certain guide-lines given to the representatives of the Serbian people
17 and told them what activities to undertake in view of the crisis that had
18 struck Bosnia and Herzegovina and in view of the events that preceded the
19 breakup of the former Yugoslavia
20 the breakup of the system of power in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 MR. HANNIS: Can we bring up on the screen Exhibit P15.
22 Q. Witness, in a moment I hope you'll be seeing on your screen a
23 document that we've been talking about. This is the cover page. I think
24 you looked at this during proofing. Do you need to see the inside
1 A. Well, if that's not a problem, I would appreciate it.
2 Q. No problem.
3 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the next page in both English and
5 Q. And on this first page we see a reference to Variant A. Do you
6 recall there being two Variants, A and B, for these instructions?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And as I understand it, Variant A was for municipalities where
9 there was a majority population of Serbs; and Variant B was for those
10 where Serbs were in a minority; is that correct?
11 A. Indeed, yes.
12 Q. And we have in this case an adjudicated fact, 1372, which
13 indicates that at the time Zvornik was approximately 59 per cent Muslim
14 and 38 per cent Serb. So Zvornik would have been a Variant A
15 municipality under these instructions?
16 A. No, Zvornik would be under B because Serbs were a minority there.
17 Q. You're absolutely right. I misspoke. I meant to say "B." Thank
19 And do you recall having these instructions received in Zvornik
20 in late December 1991?
21 A. I cannot confirm the authenticity of this particular document,
22 but I remember that we received similar guide-lines in Zvornik.
23 Q. And prior to the documents being received in Zvornik, had you
24 attended any meeting or been present where there were discussions about
25 these instructions prior to them actually being issued?
1 A. I can't recall being part of the work of a forum that might have
2 prepared these guide-lines.
3 Q. You don't recall being at any meeting of the Deputies' Club where
4 Mr. Krajisnik, Karadzic, Plavsic, and Koljevic discussed the instruction?
5 A. We had a lot of meetings of our Deputies' Club before the
6 conflicts broke out. At many meetings those things were indeed
7 discussed, but your first question was whether I participated in meetings
8 where these things were prepared. I said that I didn't; however, I did
9 attend meetings where there were discussions about the implementation of
10 measures that would ensue after all those things.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Do you recall when and how the SDS in Zvornik
12 received these instructions from the Main Board? Were they picked up by
13 somebody from Zvornik? Were they faxed or mailed to you, do you recall?
14 A. I really can't remember. A lot of documents arrived at the time.
15 I really can't remember how this particular document arrived, but I've
16 already told you -- I've explained how documents arrived, by mail, by
17 fax, they were brought personally by people from various sessions and
19 Q. And once the instructions were received in Zvornik, did the SDS
20 in Zvornik go about implementing the Variant B instructions?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. HANNIS: Could we next take a look at Exhibit P436.
23 Q. This is tab 3. Now, witness, you should see on your screen a
24 document dated the 22nd of December, 1991, called "Conclusions of the
1 election of a Crisis Staff. Do you recall this meeting and this -- these
2 conclusions, including the election of a Crisis Staff?
3 A. Well, I can't remember the specific meeting or what transpired at
4 that particular meeting, but it is certainly not in dispute that a Crisis
5 Staff was set up.
6 Q. And was the commander Branko Grujic, as is reflected here?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us if any member of the Crisis Staff was also a
9 member of the police and tell us the name of that person.
10 A. Dragan Spasojevic represented the Serbian people in the MUP. He
11 was a commander there -- actually, the commander of the police station in
13 Q. A couple other names. Can you tell us who Stevo Ivanovic was,
14 what organ was he a member of?
15 A. Stevo Ivanovic was the secretary for national defence in the
16 municipality of Zvornik.
17 Q. How about Kosta Eric?
18 A. Kosta Eric worked in the Territorial Defence and he was in charge
19 for civilian protection there.
20 Q. Item number 4 says that:
21 "Jovo Ivanovic is elected co-ordinator for negotiations with the
22 SDA ..."
23 What kinds of negotiations were contemplated with the SDA at that
24 time, if you know?
25 A. Negotiations to deal with all disputable issues and also to
1 prevent any possible incidents. He was appointed as a person who can
2 rally other people around himself in order to talk to the representatives
3 of the Muslim people and deal with any possible problems that had arisen
4 during the inter-ethnic conflict. I don't know how I should put it. I'm
5 talking about developments that were aberrations from any kind of normal
6 behaviour, as it were.
7 Q. And if you could help me with a couple of acronyms. In item
8 number 5 it says:
9 "Any political negotiations with SDA are forbidden to members of
10 GO," it says in my translation, "and MO, except for the people who are
11 authorised to do so by GO."
12 Do you know what those acronyms stand for?
13 A. GO is -- stands for Executive Board, whereas MO stands for local
15 Q. And that would be boards of the SDS?
16 A. Yes, of the SDS
17 Q. Thank you. I want to jump forward a bit to --
18 A. [In English] Excuse me.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. [Interpretation] I would like to dwell on this document for a
21 while. When I spoke to you I said that the Crisis Staff didn't comprise
22 only SDS
23 they were members of another party, and there were people who only
24 subsequently joined the SDS
25 members in the Crisis Staff.
1 Q. Okay. Can you tell us which of these named people were not in
2 December 1991 members of the SDS
3 A. Slavoljub Tomasevic, for example, was a member of another party.
4 It was the party of Dudakovic [as interpreted] or whatever his name was.
5 They were the heirs of the communist party and at the time -- Vaso Eric
6 at the time wasn't an SDS
7 Well, these are some of the people --
8 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise to my learned friend. There is
9 a -- I think small error in line 20 -- it's page 21, line 2. I think it
10 was not Dudakovic, maybe witness said the other name and maybe that was
11 kind of -- that was kind of party, and maybe we could get from the
12 witness what the ethnicity was the president of that party former -- just
13 for the sake of the transcript. Thank you.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Did you hear that, Witness, and can you help us with that?
16 A. The president of the party was a Muslim by ethnicity at the time.
17 I said Dudakovic but I made a mistake. His name wasn't Dudakovic, but
18 perhaps somebody from the Defence remembers the name of the president of
19 the party that followed in the footsteps of the communist party.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If the Chamber allows, we can
22 assist, but we can deal with the matter on the cross-examination as well.
23 MR. HANNIS: That would be --
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's only about one letter in the
25 last name of the person in question, one letter should be altered, but
1 it's not a problem.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 it's a matter of historical record. So if the clarification could be
4 made at this point, please go ahead.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The president of that party was
6 called Durakovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Durakovic. I apologise. I
8 made the mistake. The difference really is only one letter.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
10 Q. Nevertheless, these individuals named as members of the Crisis
11 Staff in this document were all Serbs; correct?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. Thank you. Next I want to go forward to April of 1992 and show
14 you a document that is P323. Now, at the beginning of April were you
15 aware of or did you hear about a take-over facilitated in part by Arkan's
16 men or Arkan's Tigers in Bijeljina municipality?
17 A. We followed the events in Bijeljina on television or on the radio
18 and so on.
19 Q. Did you see Mrs. Plavsic greeting Arkan in Bijeljina?
20 A. I saw that in Bijeljina not only Mrs. Plavsic but also a member
21 of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina; in respect of the Muslim people,
22 Fikret Abdic welcomed Arkan in Bijeljina.
23 Q. Take a look at the exhibit that's on the screen, P323 in
24 evidence. It's entitled: "Decision on the Declaration of the State of
25 War on the Territory of the Serbian Municipality
1 of April, 1992. Were you aware of this decision at the time it was made?
2 A. I do not have the paper here. Perhaps this page should be moved.
3 Could this be --
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I may assist, we only see the
5 English version on the screen, whereas the other -- oh, now it's okay.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it needs to be magnified.
7 MR. HANNIS: I think we need the right-hand side.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can see it. Yes, this is the
9 document that was adopted by the Crisis Staff.
10 MR. HANNIS:
11 Q. And do you know how it came to be adopted on that date? Was it
12 pursuant to some instruction from higher up or was it simply a decision
13 of the local Crisis Staff of which Mr. Grujic was the commander?
14 A. This was a decision of the local Crisis Staff, because at that
15 time - and that's the beginning of the conflict in Zvornik - chaos spread
16 and events occurred over which we had no control. And this is an attempt
17 of ours to establish control over the circumstances, that's -- that was
18 our line of thinking at the time.
19 Q. Was there a particular event that had taken place that led to
20 this decision being adopted or was it the totality of circumstances
21 throughout the municipality and Bosnia
22 A. I'd sooner say that it was a totality of circumstances, but
23 particularly the circumstances in Zvornik; but the situation in all of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina anywhere was extremely serious.
25 Q. Up to this time, though, January through the very beginning of
1 April, in Zvornik municipality were the joint organs working between
2 Muslims and Serbs?
3 A. Up until April 1992 the municipality of Zvornik
4 officially. Until April 1992 there was no official breakup of the
5 municipality, it functioned officially. But the functioning of the
6 municipality was much more difficult. It existed only on paper, whereas
7 from the functional point of view it was practically non-existent. Even
8 then we were completely divided and that happened before April, because
9 there had been a series of incidents which led to a sharp rise of
10 tensions. And there was no point in doing anything. There were many
11 attempts to reach agreement to improve the situation, but Zvornik
12 municipality could not set up control over things. And I can give you
13 examples. There was a murder of a taxi-driver in Zvornik which gave rise
14 to great tensions, and immediately before the conflict there was that
15 attack on a sergeant and a group of soldiers. And then there was
16 distrust and dissent within the MUP, that is, the police. And then there
17 was disagreement and dissent within various municipal services.
18 Q. Let me ask you this question: By geography - I'm no expert on
19 the constitutional law of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina or the RS. I
20 think by education and training you aren't either, but where does a
21 Crisis Staff draw the authority to declare a state of war? Isn't that
22 something that is more left to the National Assembly or the Presidency
23 rather than a local Crisis Staff?
24 A. Before that event in Zvornik certain decisions were adopted at
25 the level of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska. An Assembly or
1 parliament of the RS was established and so was an interim government or
2 a council of ministers. The situation was monitored and there were
3 negotiations with the Muslim side about a peaceful solution to the
4 problem of the breakup of former Yugoslavia
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You will know that the Cutileiro Plan was signed
6 which envisaged a peaceful break-away of Bosnia-Herzegovina from former
8 Q. I'm sorry --
9 A. -- the central authorities were crumbling --
10 Q. -- I don't think you're answering my question. Do you know what
11 authority a Crisis Staff, a municipality Crisis Staff, had under the
12 constitution or any laws in the former Bosnia or in the nascent entity
13 that became the Republika Srpska to declare a state of war, do you know?
14 A. The Crisis Staff declared the state of war in the territory of
15 the Serb municipality of Zvornik
16 that is the Serb municipality of Zvornik
17 And when we established a Serb municipality of Zvornik
18 with the following intention: If there should be a crisis it should take
19 care of the population, it should prevent the escalation of conflicts,
20 et cetera.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 Mr. Witness, do I understand your answer to Mr. Hannis's question
1 to be that for purely practical, organisational reasons this is -- this
2 declaration of a state of war was something that was permissible or
3 acceptable at the local level? Do I understand that to be the effect of
4 your answer?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From a legal point of view, as the
6 Prosecutor said, or from the constitutional point of view, at the level
7 of the republic that may not have been strictly legal. But with a view
8 to the situation, we constantly speak about law from this vantage point.
9 But I have come here to speak about the situation as it was there and
10 then. Chaos reigned. The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina had broken
11 apart. There were no authorities, no functioning authorities, and then
12 the Crisis Staff took a decision. Of course it derives its authority
13 merely from the fact that it was established and it tried to create a
14 situation that would lead to normalisation. There was chaos. We
15 couldn't sit there and think about what was lawful and what was not. I
16 hope I have made myself clear.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 MR. HANNIS:
19 Q. Witness, before I go on to the next days in April, let me ask you
20 about the two accused in this case. Did you know Stojan Zupljanin in
21 1992; and if so, when and how did you meet him?
22 A. In 1992?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I'm certain I didn't know Stojan Zupljanin until after September
25 1992. I'm sure of that. It must have been after September 1992. When
1 exactly, however, I can't remember now.
2 Q. And when you met him after that, what were the circumstances?
3 A. I met him at the Bosna Hotel in Banja Luka. He was introduced to
4 me by the vice-speaker of the Assembly, Mr. Branko Simic. He introduced
5 him as the security advisor or something like that, Stojan Zupljanin. We
6 were sitting there and talking about unrelated things.
7 Q. I take it you then had no substantive dealings with him in 1992?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And how about Mico Stanisic, can you tell us when and how you
10 first met him and the nature of your contacts with him in 1992?
11 A. I don't know whether or not I saw him at a meeting or another in
13 until the meeting at Sekovici. And that would have been by the end of
14 May 1992.
15 Q. Thank you. We'll talk more about that in a little bit. Let me
16 return to the 6th of April and the declaration of war in Zvornik, Serbian
17 municipality of Zvornik. Do you recall -- I think my calendar shows that
18 the 6th of April was a Monday. Can you tell us how --
19 A. [In English] Yes.
20 Q. -- your day began and what happened the next few days.
21 A. [Interpretation] On that day, Brano Grujic came to the building
22 where I was to fetch me. It was early in the morning and I was supposed
23 to go to the factory. He told me that something terrible was happening,
24 that there was conflict, that there were many roadblocks, and that we
25 should urgently go to Celopek where we should all assemble and see what
1 should be done and we should also collect information. We went to
2 Glinica, but we were stopped at a roadblock at Meterize and we were sent
3 back. And then we crossed the Old Bridge
4 new bridge and crossed to Karakaj. After that we went to Celopek and we
5 tried to establish contact with the members of the Crisis Staff, with
6 Jovo Ivanovic, Stevo Ivanovic, Radic, and the others. Once we succeeded
7 in doing that, we decided that we should move closer to the road, and we
8 decided to go to Alhos, that was a factory that didn't work at the time,
9 and we wanted to collect information about what was going on. That was a
10 moment when you could hear shooting including artillery fire and also
11 small arms fire. All traffic was interrupted and the phones weren't
13 We met at Alhos. Once the Crisis Staff was assembled, we decided
14 to go to Alhos. If you want me to continue, I can tell you what happened
15 in the following day --
16 Q. Can I interrupt for a minute just to ask you about Alhos. You
17 said it was a factory that didn't work anymore, but where was it located?
18 Was that in the area that's referred to as Karakaj?
19 A. Karakaj, yes.
20 Q. Now, I'm sorry, please continue.
21 A. At Karakaj we tried to collect information about what was going
22 on, where -- how the conflict began, who was fighting who, but we had
23 little success. We couldn't reach any of the officers who were out there
24 with their units, Obrenovic, and at Celopek there was a battalion that
25 had come back from Croatia
1 involved in the fighting towards Sapna and Zivinice and so on. All that
2 day it was like that until the meeting of the Crisis Staff. After the
3 meeting those volunteers started arriving.
4 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there. You mentioned trying to reach some
5 of the officers with their units and you mentioned an Obrenovic. Was
6 that Dragan Obrenovic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And he was a captain in the JNA, if I recall correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then you mentioned that there was a meeting of the Crisis Staff.
11 At what time of day on April 6th, if you remember, was that in the
12 afternoon or the evening?
13 A. In the early evening hours or in the late afternoon.
14 Q. And one or two more questions before we take the first break.
15 You said that after the Crisis Staff meeting those volunteers started
16 arriving. And can you tell us what you mean by "those volunteers." Who
17 were they and where were they from?
18 A. They were Arkan's men. Peja's with Marko Pavlovic arrived, and
19 in front of the building I cannot give the exact number, but there may
20 have been about a dozen of those people. I don't know the exact number,
21 but certainly a group arrived and could be seen outside that building.
22 Q. Let me break it down into a couple more questions. Who was the
23 leader of Arkan's men that came to Alhos on the 6th of April?
24 A. The leader of the men was Peja. They called him Major Peja.
25 Q. And Marko Pavlovic, who was he? Had you met him before and what
1 did you know about him?
2 A. I saw him after the establishment of the Serb municipality of
3 Zvornik. He was introduced to me by Dragan Spasojevic, who said that he
4 was a Serb businessman who wanted to invest in Zvornik municipality, who
5 wanted to help, and so on. I knew him as such.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. HANNIS: Perhaps that's an appropriate time for our first
8 break, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HALL
11 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
13 MR. HANNIS:
14 Q. Witness, when we broke we were talking about April 6th and Alhos
15 and some of the people who arrived there. You mentioned Marko Pavlovic,
16 who was introduced to you by Dragan Spasojevic, as being a Serb
17 businessman. Later in 1992 or even after the war, did you learn more
18 information about who Marko Pavlovic actually was?
19 A. After the war I found out that Marko Pavlovic was among us under
20 an assumed name, that he had actually come from Sremska Mitrovica or some
21 place; however, I'm not sure that he was born there. And I supposed that
22 he was a member of some federal security service. I'm not sure what
23 exactly the name of that agency would be.
24 Q. Also on the 6th of April, were any Serbian members of the Zvornik
25 police station arriving at Alhos, do you recall?
1 A. Now I cannot remember whether it was Monday or Tuesday, but I
2 believe that a group arrived on Monday.
3 Q. Can you tell us what happened the next day, Tuesday, the 7th, did
4 the Crisis Staff meet again?
5 A. On the following day the Crisis Staff met again. They were
6 assembled constantly, as it were, at least most of the members of the
7 Crisis Staff. They were considering what to do and what steps to take.
8 Some information had trickled through about what kind of conflict was
9 going on, where the roadblocks were, what was going on in town, and so
10 on. So we held meetings to see what to do in the future, how -- where we
11 should go from there. One of the suggestions was to set up contact with
12 the president of the municipality, that is the representatives of the
13 Muslims, to negotiate with them and try to solve the situation to learn
14 how they felt about it and what kind of solution could be arrived at.
15 Q. What was the name of the president, the Muslim president, of the
17 A. His name was Abdulah Pasic.
18 Q. And at this Crisis Staff meeting on Tuesday, the 7th of April,
19 were there any outsiders or non-members of the Crisis Staff attending the
20 meeting ?
21 A. When we decided to re-start negotiations with the Muslims, Marko
22 and Peja attended the session of the Crisis Staff. I then had a clash
23 with the so-called Major Peja, and I asked Brano who this man was and why
24 he had come because he was walking about all the time shouting things
25 such as, "What are you doing sitting here and we're -- while people are
1 dying out there?" And then I suggested that he leave, and so he did,
2 angrily. I suggested --
3 Q. The Marko you refer to is Marko Pavlovic?
4 A. I suggested and we decided to re-start negotiations with the
6 I said that I had a clash with Peja and Marko Pavlovic was at the
7 meeting with him.
8 Q. So what was done about the decision to try and negotiate with the
10 A. Later Jovo Ivanovic called up Pasic and they spoke to see where
11 we could meet and decide what to do later. We were not sure that we
12 could guarantee him security on our side and he wasn't sure that he could
13 guarantee our security in Zvornik, so it was Pasic who suggested that we
14 meet at Mali Zvornik in Serbia
15 following day.
16 Q. Before you went to Mali Zvornik on Wednesday, the 8th, also on
17 Tuesday, the same day that you decided to try and have some further
18 negotiations, did the Crisis Staff take any decision about mobilising any
19 forces in light of the crisis?
20 A. The Crisis Staff did take decisions once the state of war was
21 declared, including a mobilisation order. I don't remember the exact
22 date, but we tried to mobilise people to raise the reserve forces and
23 established some units and so on.
24 Q. Tell us what happened the next day, Wednesday, 8 April.
25 A. On the following day, Jovo Ivanovic and I went to that meeting.
1 Stevo Ivanovic was supposed to come along but didn't. So the two of us
2 went. We were driven there by one of the journalists who was there and
3 he had a car and he offered us to take us to Mali Zvornik. We went to
4 the Jezera Hotel with him, that's at Mali Zvornik, and we met Pasic there
5 and Alija Kapidzic who was commander of the TO for Zvornik. They were
6 the Muslim representatives.
7 We sat down to talk -- actually, we had coffee and then when we
8 wanted to start talking we asked the journalists to leave and that we
9 would give a statement to him later and he got up and left. We asked the
10 hotel personnel to find us a room where we would be undisturbed. He left
11 to look for a room, and during that time we spoke to them. And even now
12 I remember that they told us what the situation was like in Zvornik where
13 a Muslim population was left behind and where they were too. I remember
14 perfectly that they said that the situation was almost the same as it was
15 on our side, that there was utter chaos, that there were many new people
16 whom they didn't know, that they were setting up check-points all over
17 the place, they were stopping people, searching for weapons, even
18 searching houses and homes. That's what the two of us told us while we
19 were still there sitting there with nobody else present.
20 After that short conversation, the head waiter arrived, but with
21 him there were armed people and they ordered us to follow them. They
22 took us to the Municipal Assembly of Mali Zvornik. We were taken into a
23 large room.
24 Q. Can I stop you there just to clarify. Mali Zvornik is across the
25 river in Serbia
1 A. In Serbia
2 Q. And these armed men who took you to the room, what do you know
3 about them or what did you later learn about who they were?
4 A. I didn't know anything about them. I didn't know then, I don't
5 know now, but I'm sure that they were Arkan's men. They were his men
6 because the uniforms that they wore were not uniforms either of the army
7 or the police. Shall I continue or what?
8 Q. Yes. Please tell us what happened when you arrived in this large
10 A. When we arrived in this large room, in the central part there was
11 Arkan standing there. That was the first time I saw him in person. I'd
12 not seen him before, but I knew him from television and from newspapers
13 and so on. And there were a lot of people standing around him. We were
14 brought in and they asked us who we were. I said, "I'm a deputy and this
15 is the president of the Executive Board, the president of the
16 municipality of Zvornik," and so on and so forth. And then he said,
17 "What are you doing here?" And I said, "We are negotiating." "What
19 And now I have to go back to something I forgot to say. Before
20 we set off when Jovo Ivanovic had spoken to Pasic, Pasic told him this,
21 "We are ready and we accept to divide the municipality into a Muslim part
22 and a Serbian part to keep peace and to keep good relations." That's
23 what we had in mind and that's what we wanted to do. Then Arkan said,
24 "Take the two outside and the traitors should remain here." And then he
25 said, "What are you doing here? Why are you doing?" "We are
1 negotiating." "What about?" "We are negotiating about the division of
2 the municipality and restoring peace." And he says, "Who authorised you
3 to do that, traitors? This is not your job. You have to defend the
4 Serbian people. The Serbs are dying out there and you are negotiating
5 with Muslims. Zvornik is just one municipality and it's an integral
6 municipality and it cannot be split with the Muslims." I had never heard
7 that before. And then Peja approached us and hit both me and Jovo
8 Ivanovic. And when that was over he said, "Take them out."
9 We found ourselves in front of the municipality building and we
10 were waiting for a car to take us across the river. While we were there
11 waiting, Marko Pavlovic got out and he said, "I'll give you a lift back."
12 En route to Alhos Marko Pavlovic told us this, "And now, lads,
13 your political days are over. Go back to your companies. This is not
14 the work for you." And as of that moment onwards, we really no longer
15 engaged in politics. We both returned to our respective companies.
16 Q. Let me ask you a few more specific questions about this event.
17 In addition to Arkan in this large room, do you remember anybody else
18 present in the room when this conversation took place?
19 A. In addition to Arkan, I remember that there were two guys named
20 Jekic and one of them was Vojo Jekic. In my opinion, he probably had a
21 lot to do with the events. He was quite influential. I saw him in
22 Zvornik on a few occasions. There was also Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer; Dragan
23 Obrenovic; there was Marko Pavlovic; there was also the secretary for the
24 police from Mali Zvornik; and a few other men whom I can't remember as I
25 sit here today. In any case there were a lot of people there, Peja and
2 Q. And in the conversation when Arkan said, "Take those two out and
3 keep the traitors here," the two that were taken out were the Muslims,
4 Mr. Pasic and Mr. Kapidzic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you say Peja hit you and Mr. Ivanovic. How was that? Was
7 that a slap? Was that one punch? Was it multiple blows? How long did
8 that last?
9 A. I must admit that Ivanovic received more blows than I did. I was
10 slapped twice or three times and kicked twice or three times, and he was
11 slapped many more times than I was and also kicked many more times than I
13 Q. So on the 8th Pavlovic took you back to where, Karakaj?
14 A. To Karakaj, yes.
15 Q. And what happened then on the 8th in Zvornik town, do you know?
16 A. I don't know exactly at what point in time, but later on I heard
17 that Arkan had given an ultimatum to Kapidzic and Pasic for weapons to be
18 surrendered by either 1.00 or 2.00, and he told them that he knew exactly
19 how many rifles they had. That's what I heard. And then he let them go.
20 I heard that he had not ill-treated them or beaten them. At that point
21 that same evening or perhaps in the afternoon, later in the afternoon,
22 Zvornik came under attack. I don't know exactly. I was in the factory,
23 I wasn't there, but I believe that the attack against Zvornik started
24 sometime in the afternoon that same day.
25 Q. And do you know what forces on the Serb side were involved in
1 that attack and eventual take-over of the town? Was it army? Police?
2 Civilians? Who was it?
3 A. I cannot be a reliable witness to that. I can only tell you what
4 I heard. The central figure of all those developments was Arkan. I
5 don't know if there were any other paramilitaries in addition to Arkan.
6 I don't know who else was involved, whether any members of the military
7 were involved. I don't know. I can't confirm because I didn't see any
8 of that. I don't know. I wasn't present while that was happening.
9 Q. Okay. We have adjudicated facts about that. Let me ask you
10 about the next Crisis Staff meeting after the 8th of April. Do you
11 recall when that was?
12 A. The next Crisis Staff meeting was on the following day, on
13 Thursday. Jovan Ivanovic and I were again invited to attend the meeting.
14 The Crisis Staff meeting was called in order to set up some sort of power
15 that could be in power; that was the explanation. And the explanation
16 was that there were no authorities on either of the sides, at least not
17 any functioning authorities. Marko Pavlovic's proposal was to set up an
18 interim government, and the Crisis Staff concluded that this interim
19 government should indeed be set up, that the existing bodies of
20 government should be disbanded, and that new authorities should be set
21 up. And I don't know, it wasn't actually said precisely how that would
22 be done.
23 Q. We have some documents that purport to be from the provisional
24 government or temporary government as it's sometimes translated. Do you
25 know why this provisional government was created instead of just
1 continuing with the Crisis Staff and do you know whose idea was it? I
2 guess anyone other than Marko Pavlovic?
3 A. I can't tell you whose idea that was. I can only speculate.
4 However, I heard that it was Marko Pavlovic's proposal, that he was the
5 one who was of the opinion that this provisional or temporary government
6 should be set up. I don't know whether he discussed it with somebody
7 else. I can't tell you because I never attended any such discussions or
8 meetings if there were any.
9 Q. Now, from the documents it appears the provisional government was
10 set up sometime around the 9th or 10th of April and continued to function
11 until sometime in late August. During that time did you attend any
12 sessions of the provisional government?
13 A. I was asked by my managing director in my company to attend any
14 meetings when economic issues and mobilisation issues were on the agenda.
15 He asked me to protect people from the Glinica company. The Glinica
16 company was an important company, and when the number of staff was down
17 we experienced a lot of technical problems, we couldn't function
18 properly, and that's how I came to attend some of the meetings.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where you were and what you were
20 doing during the approximately ten days to two weeks between April 8th
21 and April 20th of 1992, if you remember.
22 A. I was in my company.
23 Q. When was the first time after the conflict started that you
24 returned to Zvornik town itself?
25 A. I believe that I returned to Zvornik around the 20th of April,
1 but I can't swear to that. I believe it was around the 20th of April
2 that I went back to my apartment.
3 Q. And can you tell us what did you see when you went into Zvornik
4 town, what were you able to observe about the conditions there?
5 A. Well, I can tell you that there was a lot of debris and rubble in
6 Zvornik. All the streets were in a state of disarray. Many shop windows
7 were broken. I could see a lot of armed people roaming the streets, and
8 on some shop windows there were inscriptions. When I arrived at my
9 building my apartment was in a good state of order, nobody had touched
10 it, but all of the Muslim apartments in my building had been broken into,
11 and I'm talking about my building only and the apartments that had been
12 broken in in that building.
13 Q. And in your building approximately how many flats were there?
14 A. Approximately 80.
15 Q. And of those 80, what was the division between Serb-owned and
16 Muslim-owned properties?
17 A. 50/50.
18 Q. Let me ask you about a couple of documents from the provisional
20 MR. HANNIS: If we could first show the witness 65 ter 2605. And
21 we need to enlarge the left-hand page of the B/C/S I think.
22 Q. This is in my English translation entitled: "A Decision to Form
23 the Territorial Defence Command ..." dated the 28th of April, listing
24 Marko Pavlovic as commander. Do you remember when this decision was
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Was Branko Grujic the head or president of the interim government
3 at that time?
4 A. He was the president of the interim government from the 9th of
5 April onwards. That's from the day the government was set up until the
6 moment the municipality Assembly had been reinstated to its previous
8 Q. Do you know why Marko Pavlovic, this outsider, had been appointed
9 head of the TO in Zvornik?
10 A. I can say that I don't know who he had spoken to and about what.
11 It would be speculation if I told you anything. However, I can tell you
12 that at that time on day one and day two after the exit from Zvornik it
13 was a problem to find a person who would lead the Territorial Defence.
14 To put it simply, there was simply no people. I remember that one guy
15 was appointed and left the position on -- within the scope of one day. I
16 don't know why Marko Pavlovic was appointed. I can't tell you that I am
17 a reliable witness to that. If I told you anything, it would be mere
18 speculation on my part.
19 Q. Were you able to observe the nature of the relationship between
20 Mr. Grujic and Mr. Pavlovic in terms of their working together?
21 A. Their relationship, it was fair based on what anybody could
22 observe. They didn't have any mutual conflicts. They co-operated
23 normally, they socialised normally, but in terms of their relationship
24 and how they functioned I don't know. But from what one could observe I
25 would say that their relationship was fair, that they were fair to each
2 Q. It was certainly better than your relationship with Major Peja?
3 A. I did not have any relationship with Major Peja after the events
4 in Mali
5 Q. Fair enough.
6 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to tender that document, please.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1605, Your Honours.
9 MR. HANNIS:
10 Q. And one more, Witness, from the provisional government. This is
11 tab 13. It's 65 ter 2607.
12 MR. HANNIS: And I think we need the right-hand page enlarged of
13 the B/C/S. No, I'm sorry. I've got the wrong page. Could I see the
14 left-hand side.
15 Q. This is a decision dated the -- also the 28th of April, and
16 it's -- at the top says:
17 "Following Article 5 of the decision on the declaration of the
18 state of war ..."
19 This is a decision relating to a commission for cleaning up the
20 battle-field. Item III
21 "Cleaning up of battle-field duties shall be transferred to the
22 TO staff command of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik
23 Before this date, do you know whose responsibility it was in the
24 municipality for cleanup of battle-fields, what department or section?
25 A. The department in charge of that before the war was the
1 department for civilian protection.
2 Q. Do you know why this change was made, to transfer those duties to
3 the Territorial Defence command?
4 A. I don't know. I really don't know why that was done.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to tender 2607.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1606, Your Honours.
9 MR. HANNIS:
10 Q. Now, Witness, after the take-over of Zvornik town did you observe
11 or hear what was happening in Muslim villages outside the town in Zvornik
13 A. After the take-over of Zvornik municipality, many Muslim villages
14 were torched. Muslims in the villages -- I can't remember the name --
15 oh, right, Djulici, Kozluk, and Sepak were cut off from the Drina River
16 because the front line was slowly moving towards Zivinice and Tuzla
17 Muslims from the upper part of the Drina Valley
18 Vlasenica and there was a front line set up in the direction of
19 Vlasenica. That was the situation around that time, and those people who
20 remained in Djulici, Kozluk, and Sepak were in extremely dire straits.
21 They didn't work, they didn't have electricity, they didn't have water,
22 they didn't have food. Nobody helped them. Nobody guaranteed their
23 safety. They were exposed to the paramilitaries who stormed in, arrested
24 people, intercepted vehicles, set up check-points. Their situation in a
25 nutshell was not enviable at all.
1 Q. And in connection with those Muslim villages that were being
2 torched, what was happening with the Muslim villagers who lived there?
3 Did you hear about arrests and killings of some of those people?
4 A. A majority of the villagers left the area of Zvornik and a lot of
5 those did indeed manage to leave it; however, the gangs that stormed the
6 villages, if they happened to come across somebody -- I heard that there
7 had been cases -- if they came across somebody they were known to kill
8 those people on the spot. And they also arrested some people and took
9 them to the prisons that they'd themselves had set up in Zvornik.
10 Q. Do you know the names and locations of any of those prisons set
11 up in Zvornik?
12 A. In Zvornik places where Muslims were incarcerated were at Divice,
13 in Celopek, at the farm. I can't give you any more details. I can't
14 give you any more places, but most times those three were mentioned.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you personally tell anybody in the government or
16 any other authorities about these crimes, these killings and torchings of
17 villages, the arrest and detention in those prisons?
18 A. The first contacts I had after the events in Mali Zvornik was
19 with the MP Micic from Bijeljina. He was the first one who heard from me
20 what had happened to me and how the power changed hands in Zvornik. And
21 the first occasion I had to talk to somebody at the higher level was a
22 meeting in Sekovici. That was my first direct contact with somebody
23 representing the republican government.
24 Q. Before you go further on that let me ask you one question about
25 Mr. Micic from Bijeljina. Do you recall his first name?
1 A. Dragan Micic.
2 Q. And do you recall approximately when you had that first
3 conversation with him?
4 A. I can't remember the date. However, it was at one of the
5 meetings of the regional board in Ugljevik. I had been invited to the
6 meeting and I saw him there. Since I had not attended the first Assembly
7 meeting at the time I was cut off from the rest of the world. That was
8 my first occasion to see him and that's when I shared with him the detail
9 of that story.
10 Q. Do you recall having taken part in an interview with
11 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, Stephen Margetts and
12 Brett Simpson in June 2002 when you gave a written statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in terms of when you may have spoken to Mr. Micic, do you
15 recall having indicated that that would have been sometime before the
16 Assembly session on the 12th of May in Banja Luka?
17 A. That's possible.
18 Q. You weren't able to attend that session because of the travel
19 difficulties to get from Zvornik to Banja Luka; right?
20 A. Yes. Actually, I didn't even know that there would be such a
22 Q. Now, let me ask you about the meeting in Sekovici. Where is
23 Sekovici? Is that a town? Is that a municipality? Where is it
24 vis-a-vis Zvornik?
25 A. Sekovici is a municipality which borders on Zvornik. It's
1 between Zvornik, Vlasenica, and Kalesija, that's where it's located.
2 Q. And what was the nature of this meeting that you attended? Do
3 you know who had called the meeting and for what purpose?
4 A. Brano Grujic invited me to Glinica. He told me that people from
5 the government of the republic are coming and that they wanted to see the
6 members of the Municipal Assembly and the members of the Executive Board
7 and so on. They wanted all those people to come to Sekovici to talk to
9 Q. Do you remember approximately how many people did attend?
10 A. I can't exactly remember how many, but there were all sort of
11 people. There were members of the Assembly, members of the
12 Executive Board, presidents of municipalities, members of Municipal
13 Boards of the SDS
14 the army and the police. I can't remember any individuals.
15 Q. Were there as many as 50?
16 A. I don't think so. Not as many as that.
17 Q. More than 20?
18 A. Let's say around 30.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. And who were the representatives from the
20 republican government who were present at the meeting?
21 A. The authorities of the republic were represented by Mico Stanisic
22 and Momcilo Mandic.
23 Q. What was the topic of discussion?
24 A. It was that people on the ground be informed that a government of
25 the republic was being established and that on behalf of their ministries
1 they should say what the current situation is like and what plans were in
2 place for the future. And they also wanted to hear about the situation
3 on the ground.
4 Q. And did you speak or provide any information to Mr. Stanisic and
5 Mr. Mandic about the situation in Zvornik?
6 A. I did take the floor at the meeting, but I very briefly merely
7 said what had happened with regard to Arkan and much along the lines of
8 the words of other people, that there were paramilitaries in Zvornik and
9 that they were acting on their own, stopping people, searching them,
10 looting, killing, and so on.
11 Q. And what reaction or response was there from those two, if you
13 A. They informed us that the ministries were being established and
14 that they had no funds. They were trying to set up a ministry on a
16 assisting the municipalities financially or in terms of resources. But
17 they gave instructions that attempts should be made to -- for the police
18 not to be involved in combat activities and that efforts shall be made to
19 provide security, that it should be the police to control the situation
20 on the ground to the extent possible rather than the TO or the army.
21 They said that they couldn't integrate the entire system now, but that
22 they would strive to achieve that for network to be put in place so that
23 everybody be able to establish contact with the central authorities.
24 Q. Do you recall if Mr. Mandic was at that time associated with the
25 Ministry of Interior?
1 A. I can't remember now who spoke on behalf of which ministry, but
2 they said that they were there as representatives of the Ministry of the
3 Interior and the Ministry of Justice respectively. But who was who, I
4 don't know now. I think that Mandic represented the Ministry of Justice,
5 whereas Mico spoke for the MUP.
6 Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Margetts and Mr. Simpson in 2002,
7 paragraph 132 of your statement:
8 "I think that Momcilo Mandic attended the meeting in Sekovici as
9 a representative of the Ministry of the Interior"?
10 A. Well, no. I'm saying even now I think. I'm not sure. I cannot
11 state with certainty that I remember how they introduced themselves. Why
13 the opportunity to see a document about the election of the Council of
14 Ministers so that for that reason I think that what I said is more likely
15 than the alternative, but I'm not sure.
16 Q. You think your memory is better today than it was in 2002 about
17 the events in 1992?
18 A. No, I don't. But I saw a document about the appointment of that
19 interim -- or what was it called? The Council of Ministers actually.
20 Q. Yes, but are you talking about a document related to the Assembly
21 of the Serb people in BiH?
22 A. Yes, yes. That's the document I mean.
23 Q. And what is it about that document that leads you to believe that
24 Momcilo Mandic was associated with the Ministry of Justice at the time of
25 this meeting in Sekovici? I don't understand the connection between
1 those two things.
2 A. Well, I'll tell you I wasn't sure. But when I saw that document
3 the idea came to me that it could be that way, but I'm not sure.
4 Q. But what is it about that document that makes you think that?
5 Was Mr. Mandic's name on it?
6 A. No. There is a document for the Assembly that speaks about
7 Mico Stanisic being a candidate for the position of minister of the
9 Q. Okay. And you're not aware of Momcilo Mandic serving for a time
10 as the deputy minister of the interior in the beginning weeks of the war,
11 April/early May 1992?
12 A. No, I'm not sure.
13 Q. In terms of the date of the meeting in Sekovici in your statement
14 in 2002 you indicated it was a few weeks after the start of the war. Is
15 that still -- was that still your memory?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, we've heard a lot of evidence about some of the
18 actions by various paramilitary groups in Zvornik including the Yellow
19 Wasps, but before I get to that besides speaking to Mr. Micic and
20 Mr. Stanisic and Mandic at the Sekovici meeting, did you inform any other
21 people in the government, any of the higher authorities, about these
22 crimes that you were aware of in April and May of 1992?
23 A. I can't remember that now.
24 Q. Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik?
25 A. I don't know when my first contact with Mr. Karadzic and
1 Mr. Krajisnik was. It was at Pale on the occasion of an Assembly
2 meeting, but I didn't have the chance to speak to either for any -- for a
3 longer period because Karadzic left the meeting and Krajisnik didn't have
4 much time. But I spoke to the vice-president of the Assembly,
5 Branko Simic, who promised me that he would relate everything I had said
6 to them.
7 Q. Let's talk about the Muslims leaving Zvornik municipality in
8 1992. I think in your statement you mentioned that you were involved I
9 think on four occasions with negotiations with some of those groups who
10 wanted to leave; is that correct?
11 A. In talks.
12 Q. Can you tell us about the first occasion -- I'm sorry. Can you
13 tell us about the first occasion?
14 A. First it was about the return of people who were preparing to
15 leave Kozluk. Two soldiers came to Glinica to fetch me. They were
16 saying that Major Peja wanted to see me and Ivanovic at Kozluk to try to
17 persuade the people not to leave. Ivanovic wasn't there but I was, so I
18 went to Kozluk. The people had really gathered to leave Kozluk. They
19 were all on tractor-trailers, on trucks, cars with all their belongings,
20 et cetera. They were setting off. I spoke to a mufti and a bishop, and
21 they wanted to speak out, to address the people. They climbed on a
22 tractor-trailer and were saying to the people that they shouldn't leave,
23 that the situation would calm down, et cetera, but they couldn't make any
24 specific promises. They couldn't promise them any things. I didn't
25 speak then.
1 Later there was an occasion when the people from Kozluk asked
2 questions about how security can be provided for them and how the
3 situation could be changed. That was the first time.
4 Q. How about Djulici, did you get involved in discussions or
5 negotiations about the Muslims from Djulici leaving Zvornik?
6 A. Yes, I did. Should I continue or what?
7 Q. Yes, please.
8 A. The Muslims from Djulici requested somebody to come and talk to
9 them and they did so for quite a time. They asked to see people who
10 could provide them guarantees and -- so that they could feel safe and so
11 that they could decide what they should do. They had met Peja and Marko
12 and Brano Grujic, that's what they said to us when we went there to see
13 them; and some of them, our people from that area, told me that they
14 wanted to see somebody who is not in the structures of authority because
15 they didn't believe that they were getting complete information.
16 We met one day and agreed to go and see those people so that I,
17 Dragan Spasojevic, Vinko Radovic, Nikola Spasojevic, and there was
18 another man from that area -- anyway, there was a group of some seven,
19 eight people. But before we left we saw Branko Grujic and Pavlovic. We
20 asked them what was happening to those people and what the problem was up
21 there, and then we learned that they had spoken to them and that they had
22 told them they couldn't solve their problems, that they didn't have any
23 personnel to guard them, and so on. The -- but if they felt unsafe they
24 were free to leave. If they want to leave, they were free to do so but
25 only to Serbia
1 their personal belongings and everybody was free to leave. But that
2 was -- wasn't to be understood as an order to those people but only in
3 case they want to leave that was the way to go about it.
4 When we arrived at Djulici at the house of Vinko Radovic, three
5 or four Muslims arrived and there was about a dozen of us and we listened
6 to the people describing the situation they were in and what was going on
7 there. They told us that before the war there were about 7.000 of them,
8 whereas now only 2500 had remained. They didn't have any work, no food,
9 all shops were closed, there was no medication available, and that they
10 were in dire straits. And they were looking for a solution. They asked
11 whether anybody could provide security for them, but the answer to that
12 was negative. And we said that we also heard that there were no forces
13 available to provide security. They were saying that daily there were
14 raids, that there were some men searching houses and people, arresting
15 people, and so on. They said that they were rough and ready to go and
16 they were inquiring as to how they could leave, and we told them what
17 Branko Grujic's and Marko Pavlovic's message to them was. And they
18 accepted that as the only option.
19 Q. And as I understand it the message was they could leave but they
20 could only go to Serbia
21 them, and buses would be provided for them to leave; is that right?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And did that happen? Were the people from Djulici allowed to
24 leave in that fashion?
25 A. I wasn't in Zvornik when the people left Djulici, but I can say
1 that according to what I heard from the people who were there when they
2 left that something terrible happened. Marko Pavlovic separated or
3 singled out a certain number of men from the others. They sent off the
4 rest of them to Serbia
5 school in Zvornik. They were locked up there at the school and they were
6 guarded by the TO. When I first saw Marko Pavlovic I asked him why he
7 had done that and how he could have done that, since he had been
8 promising to the people that they could leave. And he replied that in
10 He wasn't -- I'm not sure of the number he mentioned. And he said, "I
11 have a list and now we can exchange one group for the other." And I said
12 that that wasn't right and it wasn't in line with the promises made to
13 those people and that was no way to treat people because they weren't
14 soldiers but civilians, and he angrily replied that it wasn't for me to
15 tell the TO what to do. And that's how our conversation about that
17 Q. And do you know and did you hear what happened to those men from
18 Djulici who had been separated out and detained at the technical
19 school -- is that Karakaj technical school?
20 A. Karakaj, yes.
21 Q. Did you hear what happened to those men? Were they exchanged or
23 A. According to what I heard, they were not exchanged. There was
24 talk by the people from the TO who were securing the place that starting
25 from the first day of their detention every night soldiers of Repic and
1 Zuco or that paramilitary from Nis
2 took some of them away and that many people came to harm that way.
3 Marko Pavlovic, probably in a desire to stop that, organised their
4 passage to Serbia
6 because the on the way there many people got killed.
7 Q. Did you, after learning this about what Marko Pavlovic had done
8 with the men from Djulici, did you report that to anybody in the higher
9 authorities in the RS?
10 A. On the first opportunity I had, I spoke to Branko Simic about
11 that, and on one occasion I even spoke to Karadzic and Krajisnik about
12 that. And I told him in rough terms what had happened to those people
13 according to what I had heard.
14 Q. And what was the reaction from those three, if any?
15 A. The reaction -- their reaction was - how should I put it? - it
16 met with great disapproval and they couldn't believe themselves that
17 things like that could happen. Karadzic himself on several occasions
18 condemned any mistreatment of civilians or separation of civilians or
19 taking hostages, and he even issued orders to that effect. He was very
20 disappointed by what had happened in Zvornik.
21 Q. Do you know, Witness, if any action or discipline or criminal
22 charges were ever placed against Marko Pavlovic and his men in connection
23 with those events?
24 A. No, except for the fact that now he's standing trial in Belgrade
25 Q. Do you know what that's for in Belgrade?
1 A. I don't know any details, but I think it's about this event and
2 the overall situation in Zvornik.
3 Q. Thank you. What about the houses that were left behind by
4 departing Muslims? I assume that not all of them were torched. What
5 became of that property, if you know?
6 A. The people from Djulici said the following, "Whence we leave we
7 would like our houses to remain intact and unburned, and if possible the
8 authorities should see to it that the houses be preserved." And it was
9 their suggestion for the refugees, of who there were many in Zvornik, to
10 move into their houses so that the houses remain intact, to keep them
11 from torching. Later the transition authorities indeed decided to house
12 refugees there.
13 Q. Okay. If we could show you now Exhibit 65 ter 2614. I think
14 this relates to what you're talking about. It would be the right-hand
15 page I believe. My English describes this as a "decision regarding the
16 seizing of abandoned and uninhibited" - probably means
17 uninhabited - "residential and business premises in the region of the
18 Serbian municipality of Zvornik
19 Is this the provisional government decision you're talking about to deal
20 with abandoned property?
21 A. As far as I can understand this, this decision is a general
22 decision that doesn't apply to any specific cases. This decision covers
23 all of the territories that had been abandoned in Zvornik municipality,
24 that had been abandoned and that would be abandoned from then onwards.
25 That's how I interpret this decision.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to tender that.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1607, Your Honours.
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, Witness, during April through September of 1992, did you
7 have any duties? Did you have to do any work service?
8 A. I had a work obligation in my company, Glinica, and that was
9 installed immediately. The transitional government started giving me
10 either a military obligation or a work obligation, and as an MP I was
11 assigned a work obligation in the Glinica company.
12 Q. What was the nature of your work obligation? What did you do?
13 A. I was affiliated with the department which stored finished
14 products and planned the use of spare parts.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you have any duties in conjunction with
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, it's a minute or two early, but this
20 would be a convenient point for me to break.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 examination-in-chief, the Judge -- you would appreciate that the Judges
1 not being possessed of the attribute of by location are only today
2 catching up with matters that will have come in while we were away from
3 The Hague
4 relating to Thursday's witness. So what we have determined is that the
5 most efficient way time-wise of dealing with this would be if we -- if
6 you were to suspend your examination-in-chief of the witness who is now
7 in the box say 15 minutes early, about 1.30, and we could hear further
8 from you on that motion and get the Defence's response and we may be able
9 to dispose of it before we rise for the day.
10 MR. HANNIS: I can do that, Your Honour. I will ask my case
11 manager to e-mail Ms. Pidwell who is going to be handling that witness to
12 come down at 1.30 and we can address it with you then.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Witness now I want to talk to you about War Commissions. Did you
16 have an occasion in 1992 to meet a man called Dragan Djokanovic?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And I understand he was a -- well, let me ask you this: You were
19 aware about decisions at the republican level to try and create War
20 Commissions partly to do away or decommission the previously established
21 Crisis Staffs. Did you know about that?
22 A. I heard that even before Dragan Djokanovic arrived, but that was
23 the time when I first saw a decision to that effect.
24 Q. Let me show you now Exhibit P398. This is a document referring
25 to the appointment of members of a War Commission for the Serbian
1 municipality of Zvornik, and it's dated the 17th of June. Purports to be
2 based on review of a report submitted by Dr. Djokanovic. Have you seen
3 this document before? I think you saw it during proofing. I don't know
4 if you saw it in 1992?
5 A. I believe I saw it, most probably I did.
6 Q. And you see the members include Dr. Djokanovic and number 3 is
7 Branislav Grujic. That's Mr. Grujic who was president of the interim
8 government. We've heard evidence that Dr. Djokanovic initially proposed
9 a different person rather than Mr. Grujic. He proposed I think
10 Jovan Ivanovic as the third member of the War Commission. Do you recall
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what happened when Mr. Grujic found out that it was being
14 proposed that he, Mr. Grujic, not be part of this newly to-be-formed
15 commission, how did he react?
16 A. Dr. Dragan Djokanovic was a republican commissioner, and from the
17 outset he had problems with the setting up of the commission. And from
18 the outset he encountered disagreements about the goal of his arrival.
19 That was the biggest problem. And the goal of his arrival was to disband
20 the interim government, to restore the functioning of the Municipal
21 Assembly in Zvornik with all of its bodies. And the way Djokanovic went
22 about that business was something that Brano Grujic opposed to, and he
23 also opposed the goal that he had, at least the goal as Dragan Djokanovic
24 had envisaged it.
25 Q. And we see in this document that Dr. Karadzic is the one who
1 actually confirmed the appointment that included Mr. Grujic. After this
2 document was there any War Commission established in Zvornik
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, could we go into private session for a
1 JUDGE HALL
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 14901-14902 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
7 Q. One of the things that's spoken about in that document is trying
8 to resolve the matter of the SJB chief. Do you recall who was the
9 president of the SJB as of 1 July 1992
10 A. I really can't remember who the president was, but the
11 commission -- could I please read the second article of this decision if
12 that's what you're still talking about; right?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. "Due to the specific situation, the position of Zvornik ...
15 municipality and the lack of staff, we are unable to resolve the
16 following matter: The SJB chief. The War Commission is requesting help
17 from the Ministry of the Interior for the permanent solution of this
18 staffing problem."
19 One of the chiefs was one of the police officers who hailed from
20 Loznica. I don't know how long he stayed in that position and for how
21 long, and I don't know whether it was Marinko or that other guy whose
22 family name was Pantelic or something like that. I'm not sure who it
23 was. However, the problem was the fact that the police were unable to do
24 their job and they couldn't do it because they were under the great
25 influence of the commander of the Territorial Defence. They did not
1 secure what they were supposed to secure. They were supposed to secure
2 the population. They were supposed to look after public law and order.
3 What they did instead, they mobilised the population and they sent them
4 to the front line; and that was the gist of the problem.
5 Q. Okay. Let me show you Exhibit P341. This is tab 31 of the
6 documents proposed for this witness.
7 I want to show you a document now that may refresh your
8 recollection about who was the chief on a particular date and when he was
9 replaced by someone else. This is a MUP document dated the 2nd of
10 August, 1992, and it indicates that the current chief as of that date was
11 Marinko Vasilic and he was being replaced on that date by
12 Milorad Lokancevic. Does that refresh your memory about when the change
13 took place and who the new chief was as of 2nd of August?
14 A. As of the 2nd of August, 1992, the chief was Lokancevic as of the
15 2nd of August, 1992. However, the previous document covered an earlier
16 period. It didn't cover this particular date, did it?
17 Q. No, correct. And my question was V asilic the chief as of July
19 A. Vasilic stayed in the position until the moment Lokancevic was
21 Q. Thank you. Did you know a man named Dragan Adnan who was a
22 police inspector with the MUP?
23 A. Yes, I did know him.
24 Q. I would next like to show you a document that's also in evidence
25 Exhibit P338 dated -- it's tab number 23 and I want to show you this and
1 ask you about a couple of paragraphs in that talk about the situation in
2 Zvornik. in regard to the SJB. I see the first page is dated the 17th
3 of June, and if we could go to page 4 of the B/C/S and page 5 of the
5 Witness, I will tell you this is a section of a report from
6 Dragan Adnan that's talking about the public security station in Zvornik.
7 And if you could look at the first two paragraphs -- or, I'm sorry, the
8 second and third paragraphs on your page.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall seeing this during proofing?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And it talks about some of the problems in Zvornik with the
13 paramilitary formations, some problems with Captain Dragan. And the last
14 sentence in that first paragraph says:
15 "Due to such a decision and legalisation of the stay by
16 criminally inclined persons in this area, the chief of SJB Zvornik
17 dissatisfied with the decision by military authorities has submitted a
18 request to be released from this duty."
19 I take it that refers to Marinko Vasilic; yes?
20 A. I really can't remember, but I believe that it does refer to
21 Marinko Vasilic, yes.
22 Q. And that seems consistent with what you were saying before about
23 the police or the police chief not being able to do much because of
24 Pavlovic and how everybody was being mobilised and run by the TO?
25 A. He had constant problems and conflicts with Pavlovic with this
2 Q. And the next paragraph talks about how some of these persons have
3 committed rapes and even killed Muslim nationals who were ready for
4 exchange. They'd surrounded the government and Crisis Staff building,
5 and one of the members of Captain Dragan's paramilitary even threatened
6 the president of the government, holding a pistol under his throat. Did
7 you know about that, about those events?
8 A. I remember that event when the building of the municipality was
9 surrounded. We had expected people to come to go on talking about
10 information and transition to what the commission wanted us to do. And
11 while we were waiting for the people to gather, in the meantime the
12 building of the Municipal Assembly had been surrendered -- had been
13 surrounded. They focused mostly on Brano Grujic. The people were saying
14 that he had been ill-treated, that there was a knife at his throat, that
15 he had been threatened, but I myself did not see that. But I know that
16 the building was surrounded and that I do know that things like that did
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis.
19 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: 64, 25, I believe the witness said that -- what was
21 the position that Brano Grujic was holding at that point and it wasn't
23 MR. HANNIS:
24 Q. Can you tell us what position Mr. Grujic held at that time?
25 A. Mr. Grujic was the president of the interim government at that
2 Q. Thank you. Now I want to show you one more document. Do you
3 recall, pertaining to some of these issues, do you recall a meeting that
4 took place in Zvornik on the 30th of June, 1992, which was attended by,
5 among others, General Ratko Mladic and President Karadzic?
6 A. I remember that.
7 Q. Where was that meeting held?
8 A. That meeting was held in the building of the Municipal Assembly
9 of Zvornik.
10 Q. And if we could, I'd like to take a look at 65 ter 3583.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, this is -- this document is one of
12 some of the Mladic notebooks, and I think this may be the first time that
13 we're dealing with any of those in court. I want to show the witness a
14 particular excerpt. I think what I'll do at the end of that, I may ask
15 to have it marked for identification because I know there are probably
16 still pending issues with the Defence about authenticity, et cetera, but
17 I think you'll see why I want to use it with him. And I would like to
18 start with page 246 in the English in e-court and I think the B/C/S page
19 is 244. And for present purposes, if the usher could help me by handing
20 the witness a hard copy of the B/C/S I think it will go a little quicker.
21 And if in e-court we can have up those pages, 246 in English and
22 244 of the B/C/S.
23 Q. Witness, the first page I have reference is Zvornik, Tuesday 30
24 June 1992, 1330 hours, entitled: "Meeting with representatives of
25 Zvornik municipality." And there are a list of attendees.
1 A. Something is unclear here if I may say.
2 Q. Yes, what did you want to say? I think -- yeah.
3 A. This is what I wanted to say, that here in the introduction it
4 says: "Meeting with the representatives of the Zvornik Municipal
5 Assembly," but then read the list of attendees. President of the
6 Municipal Assembly of Bratunac and it goes on to Sekovici and then other
7 places and all these people do not represent the Zvornik Municipal
8 Assembly. I said to you what I remember from the meeting that I
9 attended, but I'm not sure whether this is a summary of several meetings,
10 that is, one summary note covering several meetings, that's one thing;
11 and secondly, whether it's authentic at all.
12 Q. Witness, I appreciate your volunteering to help me with the
13 authenticity, but that's not what I want to ask you. Did you attend a
14 meeting on the 30th of June with Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic in
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Who else was at that meeting?
18 A. At that meeting there may have been 15 people. When I was there,
19 there was Branko Grujic and I from Zvornik municipality, and there was
20 also Captain Dragan at that meeting. And there were other people whom I
21 don't remember now. I told you last time that I wasn't sure about
22 Marko Pavlovic. I don't remember him saying anything at that meeting.
23 Q. Did you stay for the entire meeting that you attended or did you
24 leave while other people were still meeting?
25 A. I left the meeting before the end.
1 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to page 249 of the English.
2 Q. And for you, Witness, I think it's the fourth page. I have
3 highlighted Branko Grujic's name. I think you may have just passed it.
4 On the left --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And under him the words are written:
7 "We have 32.000 Serbs.
8 "We have successfully implemented the President's decision to
9 settle Divic and Kozluk with our children."
10 In Zvornik at that time were you resettling Serb refugees into
11 the abandoned villages of Divic and Kozluk that the Muslims had then
13 A. At that time Serb refugees that had come to Zvornik were settled
14 in the abandoned villages -- the abandoned areas.
15 Q. He goes on to speak about problems with various formations and
16 Dencic called together these groups called Zuca and similar.
17 Captain Dragan appeared out of nowhere requesting to form a centre.
18 That's all correct and consistent with what you saw happened in Zvornik,
19 isn't it?
20 A. That's true. Even at that meeting the -- this problem was
21 raised, and I mean Captain Dragan's request to establish a centre.
22 Q. And had you in -- you -- had people in the municipal government
23 opposed or denied that request by Captain Dragan to form a centre in
25 A. We opposed it.
1 Q. Now if we could go to page 251 in the English and I think it's
2 one page over for you, I see the name Marko Pavlovic highlighted on the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And these remarks appear to be attributed to him. If you could
6 go over one more page, turn over one more page in your B/C/S and it's
7 page 250 in the English. At the bottom of my page it's written as:
8 "We were most active in evicting the Muslims. We had brought
9 peace to Sepak, Divic, and Kozluk. Some of them wanted to move out while
10 we demanded it."
11 That's consistent with your experience, isn't it?
12 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Zecevic.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, but we are not getting the proper
14 Serbian text on the monitors.
15 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. I'm sorry. Witness, can you tell us what number is on the bottom
19 of your B/C/S page?
20 A. I'm trying to find what you're referring to. Number 5 in my
21 version is Marko Pavlovic.
22 Q. I think it's 251 in the B/C/S. It's 253 in the English in
23 e-court. Yes, it's the bottom of that page in B/C/S on the screen:
24 "We were most active in evicting the Muslims, we had" -- and then
25 we have to go to the next page in e-court and B/C/S and likewise in
1 English, we have to continue on to the next page:
2 " ... brought peace to Sepak, Divic, and Kozluk. Some of them
3 wanted to move out, while we demanded it."
4 That's consistent with your experience earlier in the year with
5 Muslims in those municipalities, isn't it?
6 A. I don't know how to comment on this. I told you what I knew
7 about these things, whereas this differs completely. The statements are
8 different all together. Likewise, it says down there:
9 "We had to evict some of the people also for the sake of our
10 'heros' who fled from Kovacevici."
11 But Kovacevici is a Muslim village, so I'm unclear about what
12 this is all about.
13 Q. Thank you. Let me show you another document that may help.
14 MR. HANNIS: If we could look at P321, it's tab 26. And could
15 this 65 ter be marked for identification for present purposes?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, we seriously object to this document
17 being even marked for identification. First of all, Your Honours, we
18 don't -- this is not the Mladic diary. This is a transcript of alleged
19 Mladic diary prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor. So I don't really
20 see how can we admit the document which was produced in the course of
21 this year as an exhibit, produced by the Prosecution office. That is
22 beyond the dispute I think.
23 MR. HANNIS: It's --
24 MR. ZECEVIC: And -- I'm sorry. And additionally, the witness --
25 the witness does not recall many of the suggestions which Mr. Hannis put
1 to him. He expressed his reserves on the contents of it. And thirdly,
2 he even expressed his view of the authenticity of the document.
3 Therefore, I really don't see any basis for even MFI-ing this document.
4 We don't know what it is.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 me that for purely practical purposes, and we now see the arguments which
7 you are in a position to make based on this witness's testimony. But
8 inasmuch as the evidence that has been led through this witness is of
9 contemporaneous events, for want of a better way of describing it, it
10 seems that so as not to lose the fact that reference has already been
11 made to this material and we aren't losing sight of the fact that the
12 matter of authenticity still has to be determined, that there is no
13 prejudice to the Defence in allowing the convenience of it being marked
14 for identification at this stage. And it may very well be that as we
15 progress the whole thing would fall away, but I don't see any prejudice.
16 It's merely the convenience of doing it at this point. That's my
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, if I may very shortly explain, Your Honours.
19 The document which we saw which Mr. Hannis was reading from and which he
20 showed to the witness is not the document he's referring to. He's
21 referring to alleged Mladic diary. This document is not Mladic diary.
22 It is an excerpt from alleged -- alleged excerpt from the alleged Mladic
23 diary document which was prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor,
24 Your Honours. This is not the original document. This has nothing to do
25 with the document which we were dealing with in the course of this trial.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm not sure what my alleged learned friend is
3 saying because I guess if his point is what I'm using is a Latin
4 transcript of an original Cyrillic document, if that's what he's saying
5 then his arguments go to weight not to admissibility. And at this point
6 I'm not asking to admit it, I'm simply asking to mark it for
7 identification - and I think you're precisely on point, Judge - for
8 convenience and practicality because I'm hoping by the time we get to the
9 end of this case we will persuade you that this document is what we
10 purport it to be by the necessary standard for it to be admitted and then
11 you'll be able to find it and find those references. But this is just
12 the beginning of trying to deal with these materials.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
14 Could I just respond to the answer given by Mr. Hannis. It seems
15 to me that there are two issues relating to the eventual admission of
16 this excerpt. One is the authenticity and that remains to be confirmed
17 at a much later stage when we are able to see the final translation and
18 whether at that point it can be confirmed that the handwritten notes by
19 General Mladic correspond to the Latin transcription that the Prosecution
20 has made and that this Latin transcription has then been correctly
21 translated into English. That's one issue. And I think for that purpose
22 I don't have a difficulty in admitting the excerpt on an MFI basis at
23 this point.
24 But I do have another issue that relates to the contents of what
25 we have seen on the screen, because I think I was able to pick up the
1 number of persons who Mladic allegedly had listed as taking part in this
2 meeting. And I think I recall that I didn't see, for instance,
3 Branko Grujic's name among the participants. So I'm just -- I'm just
4 raising the question, are we talking about the same meeting that the
5 witness here says that he had with, among others, Karadzic and Mladic
6 and, on the other hand, the meeting that General Mladic has described in
7 his notes? Are we sure that this is one and the same meeting?
8 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, it's the Prosecution's position
9 that it is, that there weren't many meetings on the 30th of July in
10 Zvornik which were attended by Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic. We have
11 some testimony in evidence already from Dragan Djokanovic about a meeting
12 he attended with Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic. Now, you'll see
13 Dragan Djokanovic is listed as number 15 in the attendees of this
14 meeting, and on the second page of English, page 247 in e-court, number
15 18 is Marko Pavlovic. And then there's some following names without
16 numbers, but Branko Grujic is listed there as an attendee.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could -- excuse me, Mr. Hannis.
18 Could we ask the Registrar to have the document back on the
20 MR. HANNIS: The first page is page 246 in e-court of the
21 English. And that only lists the first 17 names. Mr. Grujic's name is
22 on the next.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1608, marked for identification,
2 Your Honours.
3 MR. HANNIS: Now if we could show the witness Exhibit P321.
4 Q. And, Witness, as this comes up I will tell you that this is
5 entitled Official Note about an interview. It's with Brano Grujic. It's
6 dated the 2nd of July, 1992, by an operative of the State Security
7 Service. And I think you had a chance to look at this during proofing.
8 If we could go to page 3 --
9 A. [In English] Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to page 3 of the English and it's
12 page 3 of the B/C/S as well in e-court.
13 Q. You'll see in the second half of your B/C/S page a paragraph that
15 "On the 30th of June this year, the temporary Serbian government
16 of Zvornik discussed the issues of Captain Dragan's volunteer training
17 centre ..." et cetera.
18 And I would like to go to the bottom of the page where it says
19 Dr. Radovan Karadzic and General Mladic visited Zvornik on the same day,
20 and in the presence of Captain Dragan General Mladic, among other things,
21 said he did not give any kind of approval for the establishment of a
22 voluntary training centre.
23 MR. HANNIS: And then I think we have to go to the next page of
24 the B/C/S, but we can continue on the same page in English. It goes on
25 to say:
1 "General Mladic said about Captain Dragan that he is no more than
2 an ordinary mobster ... that he, Captain Dragan, was looting in a manner
3 more subtle than Arkan and his men, but that he was not far behind them."
4 Were you aware that Captain Dragan and his men as well as Arkan
5 and his men were looting when they were in Zvornik municipality?
6 A. There was talk about looting throughout the war. Everybody was
7 familiar with these stories that goods were looted from shops, from
8 supply centres, and so on.
9 Q. Let me ask you about the Yellow Wasps. You knew about Zuco and
10 his group referred to as the Yellow Wasps and some of their activities in
11 Zvornik municipality in 1992?
12 A. Everybody in Zvornik knew about that, that they conduct searches
13 and inspections, that they loot and kill people. Repic was the
14 individual who was most often mentioned as the worst of them all, as the
15 one who mistreats others, kills them, and so on. But anyway, everybody
16 knew about the Yellow Wasps, Pivarski, Simo Chetnik, and the other
17 paramilitary units. And I believe that I told you that Brano Grujic gave
18 a good description of them here and he described them accurately.
19 Q. In that document you're saying Brano Grujic described it
20 accurately in that document that we've been looking at, that Official
21 Note --
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. When the Yellow Wasps were arrested, when that big roundup
24 occurred, did you participate in that in any fashion? Did you have
25 anything to do with that?
1 A. My connection with that incident has to do with Goran Zugic.
2 When he came to Zvornik to collect information he called on me and told
3 me what his duty was and warned me not to speak about it a lot, that he
4 was supposed to collect information. When all necessary information is
5 collected, that a group was already being prepared at the MUP who would
6 be able to stand up to them physically. That is, that they were better
7 equipped and better trained than the others. Other inspectors took part
8 in that as well, but I mostly spoke to him.
9 Q. And was he a member of the state security?
10 A. I don't know. I think he was with the MUP of the RS. I don't
11 know what his position there was, but I think he was an inspector of some
13 Q. Can you tell us what happened with the provisional government in
14 Zvornik after July 1992? I think you started to explain a little bit
15 when there was a session of the Municipal Assembly, but could you explain
16 to us how the provisional government eventually came to an end?
17 A. The provisional government ceased to exist when the Municipal
18 Assembly was established, when a president and an executive committee of
19 the Municipal Assembly were appointed, and the Assembly started working.
20 From that moment on, there was no more temporary government, provisional
22 Q. Do you recall approximately when that occurred in 1992?
23 A. I don't know, but I believe you have a document showing when the
24 decision was taken to open a municipal prison and that all other
25 detention facilities shall be closed, that a president shall be elected,
1 and so on.
2 Q. I don't have a document in front of me, but I seem to recall that
3 the date was 19 August; does that sound about right?
4 A. No, no. It must have been earlier.
5 Q. And during that session you said there was a decision taken about
6 establishing a municipal prison in Zvornik?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you know why that decision was taken? There had been lots
9 of people detained in Zvornik before that date.
10 A. There was an attempt to pass a decision for the ministry and the
11 police to lean on to take action to close down all illegal facilities,
12 and instead establishing a prison under official control of the
13 authorities rather than controlled by paramilitaries.
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, can I go into closed session for the
15 last two minutes before we --
16 JUDGE HALL
17 MR. HANNIS: -- finish with this witness for today. Private
18 session I meant.
19 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 Mr. Witness, we -- your testimony is of course not completed, but
22 we are about to take the adjournment for today and as you may have
23 gathered there are some procedural matters with which counsel and the
24 Bench have to deal. So you would now be escorted from the courtroom, but
25 I would remind you that having been sworn as a witness you can't have any
1 communication whatever with counsel from either side, and moreover in
2 such conversations as you have with persons outside of the court you
3 cannot discuss your testimony. So I would remind you that we resume
4 tomorrow afternoon, so we would continue your testimony at 2.15 tomorrow
5 afternoon. So you're now excused for the day. And as I said, just give
6 the usher time to lower the shades so that you could be escorted from the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you don't need me here or you
9 don't need me today anymore, do you ?
10 JUDGE HALL
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE HALL
13 the 23rd, and it's fairly straightforward but if you could in speaking to
14 it before we call on the Defence as to whether they are in a position to
15 respond without more -- could you help us a little bit with the
16 arithmetic in the sense that -- and it may be that I'm completely off the
17 mark here, that the three hours that this witness will have initially had
18 we assume would have included the usual 20 minutes for the 92 ter witness
19 who would have given previous testimony plus for good cause the
20 additional two hours and 40 minutes. But we are at a bit of a loss as to
21 understand why a fraction of 20 minutes is a third of an hour and that's
22 a third -- why -- what would have been one-ninth -- a fraction of
23 one-ninth of his original testimony suddenly explodes into double the
24 three hours. I mean, we are relieved that a part of your motion is that
25 you're not asking to enlarge the time available to you, but nevertheless
1 perhaps you could be of assistance in that regard.
2 MS. PIDWELL: I hope I can be of assistance, Your Honour. The --
3 this witness provided two interviews to the OTP, one in 2001 and one in
4 2009. The interview that was conducted in 2001 lasted -- or it was audio
5 recorded and lasted eight hours. It was transcribed into 94 pages of
6 English transcript. The second interview -- firstly, that interview was
7 done -- for -- in preparation for a different trial with a different
8 focus. This OTP team then went and re-interviewed him last year, at the
9 beginning of last year, and that interview was video recorded because it
10 was a suspect interview and it took -- well, from 9.30 in the morning
11 until 6.30 at night, so nine hours with breaks in between. That has been
12 transcribed into English and comprises 80 pages of transcript.
13 You will see that a lot of areas were covered and a lot of
14 evidence or topics covered in those two interviews. We have reviewed
15 those and because of the problems that we see with, firstly, the
16 transcription; secondly, the fact it hasn't been translated back into
17 B/C/S language; and thirdly, the length of time it would take for this
18 witness to re-listen to all of that because he doesn't speak English and
19 it's only been transcribed into English, and in addition there are some
20 personal factors which I won't go into in respect of this witness as to
21 why he hasn't been able to listen to those. We consider we cannot fulfil
22 the requirements of 92 ter and that was the basis for changing his mode
23 of testimony. This issue was actually first raised by Mr. Krgovic a
24 couple of weeks ago with Ms. Korner directly. Unfortunately, neither of
25 them are here to confirm that, but he raised this as what he foresaw to
1 be a problem.
2 So the original package, 92 ter package, comprised eight -- now,
3 Judge Delvoie must be able to assist me with my maths, but it's 16 or 17
4 hours' worth of interviews. And so we asked for a couple of hours in
5 addition to the 92 ter package to review additional documents with him
6 and go through that process. Now if he's turning into viva voce we're
7 going to have to condense all of the information in those two interviews
8 from 16 or 17 hours into hopefully less than six. That is an estimate.
9 He only arrives here today and will be proofed over the next couple of
10 days and I'm anticipating that that estimate will shrink more, but I
11 won't be able to provide confirmation of that until I've actually gone
12 through the documents and his evidence with him in proofing.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, could I just ask if the problem
15 relating to the two statements given by the witness to the Prosecution is
16 that the recordings have not been translated into B/C/S? Is that the
17 real problem?
18 MS. PIDWELL: That is a large part of the real problem in terms
19 of his reviewing the interviews because he is -- has been unable to
20 review them with the audio files that have been provided to him. If
21 Your Honours want to know the personal reasons for that which are
22 personal to the witness, I can do that in private session, but he has
23 been unable to review them to date. So we only have the audio recording
24 in B/C/S. We have the written version in English.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: And as I understand it part of the audio
1 recordings are inaudible, and thus not in the transcripts?
2 MS. PIDWELL: That's correct. Part of the transcripts have the
3 words "inaudible" in them because the person who was transcribing them
4 couldn't listen to the recording properly or there was background noise
5 or there were overlapping speakers, any number of reasons.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, yes, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 MR. ZECEVIC: We do not object.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, we also take no position. Obviously, it's
13 for the Trial Chamber to decide. But just to clarify, Your Honours, my
14 understanding is that this witness was initially provided to testify on
15 the basis of 92 ter rule. Now you're asking to have him in viva voce.
16 Another fact is that he didn't give any official statement to the Office
17 of the Prosecution, also he didn't testify before the Trial Chamber in
18 any proceedings. So we don't have any substantial condition to consider
19 him as a 92 ter witness, we don't have any substantial documents to form
20 his -- that's why my understanding is that our learned friend from the
21 OTP actually shifted him from 92 ter to viva voce. There -- conditions
22 are not fulfilled for him to be 92 ter, in short.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because -- if I may ask you, because the audio
24 recordings have not been typed out in B/C/S; is that what you're saying?
25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Also he cannot review, point number one;
1 point number two, it is not a formal written statement signed by the
2 witness; and he didn't testify in the other proceedings before the
3 Tribunal. So that's it.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE HALL
6 with the clear understanding - and I can't imagine what language I can
7 choose to make it -- well, abundantly, pellucidly, whatever word is the
8 highest level of description, to make it clear that the time -- the
9 extended time must be compensated for by the Prosecution in terms of some
10 other witness. The total time that the Prosecution has remaining will
11 not be enlarged as a consequence of the granting of this application.
12 Yes, Mr. Pantelic, you have something?
13 MR. PANTELIC: If we have just two minutes.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 MR. PANTELIC: If I may. Ms. Pidwell mentioned in explanation of
16 the short history with this witness that he was -- he gave certain
17 statements, et cetera. And she mentioned that this particular witness
18 was interviewed in his capacity of suspect person. Unfortunately, we as
19 a Defence we came to the conclusion, and we found many examples
20 specifically in the year 2009 and year 2010 where our friends from the
21 Office of the Prosecution interviewed a number of witnesses, informed
22 them at the beginning that they are going to give the statement or
23 interview in the capacity of suspect.
24 My understanding is that in accordance with the Resolution of
25 Security Council of UN, all further investigations by this Office of the
1 Prosecution should be suspended so there is not any right for them to
2 sort of put the pressure on the witnesses that they are a suspect. They
3 are, number one, witnesses; number two, they are allowed to inform this
4 witness that his statement or interview may be used in other courts, but
5 he is not suspect. That's the point because they don't have a right and
6 they don't have capacity to consider witness as a suspect. That's just
7 for the record, Your Honour. Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic. I think we have been
10 through this several times before and the Chamber has accepted the
11 Prosecution's explanation that the reason why they would wish to
12 interview a witness under the Rules of suspect interviews is that,
13 exactly as you point out yourself, the witness might subsequently be a
14 subject of prosecution before other courts. And out of an abundance of
15 caution and in order not to trick or to lure the witness into giving
16 information that might subsequently incriminate him before other
17 tribunals, the Prosecution has taken the view that they should then
18 interview him as a suspect and we have accepted that. Thanks.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 So we take the adjournment to 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
23 September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.