1 Friday, 1 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours. Tom Hannis,
11 Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Mr. Stanisic's Defence comprises of Slobodan Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic,
14 Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic, Igor
16 Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic for Zupljanin Defence.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 his testimony, the Trial Chamber notes that the first witness subject to
19 the Prosecution's 15th motion for protective measures filed on the 20th
20 of September is scheduled to appear on Friday, the 8th of October.
21 That's today week. The Defence is hereby instructed to file their
22 response by Tuesday, the 5th of October.
23 Thank you. And if there's nothing else, could the witness be
24 escorted back to the stand, please.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Ms. Pidwell continues, I remind you you're still on your oath.
4 WITNESS: SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE HALL
7 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Ms. Pidwell: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, sir.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Yesterday you were telling us about the Prijedor 2 police
12 station. And if you can please tell us now where that station is
13 actually located in Prijedor.
14 A. The police station was in the local community office,
15 Prijedor Dva. It was there ever since it was established. That was the
16 seat, and that was the place where everybody gathered.
17 Q. Is that in Prijedor town itself?
18 A. Yes. That is the outskirts of Prijedor, a suburb of Prijedor,
19 but now it's all become one.
20 Q. Are you familiar with the Keraterm factory in Prijedor?
21 A. It was also in the area of the Prijedor 2 local commune on the
22 Prijedor-Banja Luka road.
23 Q. So how far from the Keraterm factory was this located?
24 A. Perhaps 2 or 2 and a half kilometres. 2 kilometres, as the crow
25 flies. About 2 kilometres.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, we heard yesterday that your wartime assignment
2 was to become the commander of the Prijedor 2 station. About how many
3 police officers were under your command in that role?
4 A. I've already forgotten. But I think not more than 100. Up to
5 100. Between 80 and 100, approximately.
6 Q. And when you worked at the Prijedor main station before your
7 retirement, how many active police officers worked based out of that
9 A. About the same number, as far as I can remember. It was quite a
10 while ago. 20 years ago, or more.
11 Q. And when you held the post of commander of the Prijedor 2
12 station, who did you report to?
13 A. Along the line of reporting, the police station commanders would
14 report to the chiefs of the SUP
15 stations, I said that there was the centre and the Ljubija police
16 station. And then the substations were Omarska and Kozarac. So they
17 were directly connected to the MUP chief, the stations, and the
18 substations were reporting to the stations and the patrol sectors that
19 the station used to cover certain areas, specific areas.
20 Q. And when you say that you were -- you reported to the chief of
21 the SUP
22 A. In 1991, I was retired.
23 Q. I'm referring to the period of time, sir, when you held the
24 position of commander of the Prijedor 2 station.
25 A. Oh, when it was activated, that was our wartime assignment in the
1 reserve Prijedor 2 station when the station was activated in the second
2 half of 1992, then everybody reported, including myself as the commander
3 of the station, and the station as the station was reporting to the chief
4 of the Prijedor MUP. That's how the organisation was anyway.
5 Q. Yes. If we go back, sir, it's been recorded that the Prijedor 2
6 station was activated in the second half of 1992. Was that recorded
8 A. Yes. The second half, yes.
9 Q. But, sir, your -- the position that you took at the Prijedor 2
10 station was in 1991, was it not?
11 A. I -- I explained already. The reserve police stations were
12 formed in the early 1970s, as far as I can remember, and their main
13 function was to prepare a certain number of cadres for possible war
14 circumstances and these were mostly people working on completely
15 different jobs in different organisations, so it was a regular thing to
16 have training from the 1970s, lectures, shooting target practice. All
17 these things were done by these members of the reserve police forces
18 since that time.
19 Q. Sir, you were not -- did you not hold the position of police
20 commander of the Prijedor 2 police station in 1992, did you?
21 A. That is correct, no, I did not.
22 The commander of the reserve police station, Prijedor 2, was
23 something that I did for two months, because then I became the president
24 of the Serbian Democratic Party in Prijedor and I was not able to perform
25 both functions, both the political and the police duty, so there was a
1 suggestion and an agreement was reached for someone else to take the post
2 of the commander of the Prijedor 2 police station, and that I should
3 withdraw from that post and that's what happened. So Knezevic, Zivko
4 succeeded me in that post. Up until that time he was one of the deputy
5 police commanders in Prijedor.
6 Q. Thank you. And what was his nationality -- ethnicity?
7 A. Zivko was a Serb.
8 Q. And was he a career policeman, or was he a political appointment?
9 A. He was a professional policeman. He was deputy police commander
10 and he also -- was already retired. He retired before I, did but he also
11 had his wartime assignment but it was not in the area of Prijedor 2.
12 That was me. I don't know where he was assigned but after I withdrew, he
13 came and succeeded me in that particular post.
14 Q. If we just go back a little way, sir, if we can clarify when you
15 held this post as the commander of Prijedor 2, who was the chief of the
16 Prijedor SJB at that time?
17 A. At the time the party elections were held, there was a change of
18 the leadership cadre structure and some institutions, including the MUP
19 in Prijedor, it was headed by Telundzic. This was pursuant to the
20 agreement among parties. Earlier you saw that later there was some
21 problems about the division of power between the parties in Prijedor and
22 this later escalated to certain aggravated situations.
23 Q. What was the ethnicity of Mr. Telundzic?
24 A. He was a Muslim.
25 I apologise, I'm using the term "Muslim" throughout this time
1 because, at that time, that was the term that was used. I don't know if
2 there are problems or not with me using that term, but I would like to be
3 quite clear about that.
4 Q. Thank you. In 1991, did you know Simo Drljaca?
5 A. It just happened that I know Simo Drljaca from boyhood. His
6 father, Pero, was a police commander throughout that whole time, after
7 World War II this was how he was appointed by decree. Actually, that was
8 my father. His father, Veljko, was a policeman under my father, so it
9 just happened in these circumstances that we knew each other. But we
10 didn't really meet or see each other or socialise after that boyhood
11 period. He worked in the social community for high school education and
12 he was in the education profession. He was a -- dealing with teachers,
13 professors. That was his profession.
14 Q. And it's correct, sir, isn't it, that he lived not far from you
15 in the town of Prijedor
16 A. He lived in the centre of town. I lived in Urije. We -- I have
17 a family house there. My father had a house there, and I built myself a
18 house behind it. So whether it was close or -- or far, it's a relative
19 thing. He lived in the centre of town, and I lived in Prijedor Dva.
20 It's about 2 kilometres from the centre.
21 Q. In 1991, what position did Simo Drljaca hold?
22 A. In 1991, Simo was the secretary of the self-interest community
23 for high school education.
24 Q. During the -- during the two months that you held the position of
25 commander of the Prijedor 2 station, what -- what -- what was your
1 obligation to report matters to the chief of the -- the SUP?
2 A. Nothing particular. Regular daily activities, everything that is
3 part of police work, anything that is recorded out in the field. This
4 would be reported to me by the policemen, and then I would report back to
5 the chief. And it -- this also applied if there were any kind of
6 problems that happened.
7 Q. And what form did the reporting take?
8 A. Well, mostly often this was at the collegium meetings where the
9 commanders of the police and other cadres were called. For example, you
10 had the inner collegium and the broader collegium in Prijedor. The inner
11 collegium was the top leadership, and the broader collegium consisted of
12 lower-ranking leaders in the Prijedor MUP.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: Why this is relevant? It's 1991. It is out of
14 scope of the indictment.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MS. PIDWELL: It's background information, sir. This police
17 station was operational during the indictment period, and it's the
18 Prosecution's case that this is relevant to what happened a few months
19 later in this municipality.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.
22 Q. Now, sir, were you involved in the -- in the multi-party
23 elections that took place at the end of 1990?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not understand what the witness
3 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry --
4 JUDGE HALL
5 your answer. The interpreters didn't get it. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did take part in the elections in
7 1991, as a citizen.
8 MS. PIDWELL:
9 Q. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but there were 90 seats.
10 A. 1990 or 1991. The elections were either in 1990 or 1991. I
11 don't recall exactly whether it was 1990 or 1991. The multi-party
13 Q. Sir, please correct me if I'm wrong, but there were 90 seats in
14 the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor; is that correct?
15 A. I don't recall that. I wasn't directly involved in the work of
16 the electoral commission. I took part in the elections as a citizen.
17 Q. Are you aware that after the elections the key positions in
18 Prijedor were distributed according to party positions?
19 A. This was done in the municipality. This was an agreement that
20 was not of something that we had any influence on. They agreed and took
21 certain posts on the basis of results of the multi-party elections. And
22 the citizens, we were informed about that, who took which post, who was
23 the president, who was the secretary, the vice-president, the president
24 of the Executive Board. That is when we were informed about it as
25 citizens. But these were talks that were conducted within and among the
1 political parties, and as citizens, we didn't know about it until they
2 informed us about the situation. We didn't know how this was done.
3 Q. I have just received a message, a request from the interpreters
4 that if possible, you could slow down so they could catch what you are
6 A. No problem. One speaks in the usual way that I'm used to, but I
7 will just try to pause a little bit.
8 Q. Thank you. Now after these elections, some commissions were set
9 up by the individual parties to try and negotiate those positions that
10 couldn't be agreed upon. Do you recall that?
11 A. That's what I find as a situation which means that the
12 commissions had existed before but they couldn't agree on anything. When
13 I became party head, that was one of the crucial problems that could --
14 could have generated a crisis in the area. And as the head of the party,
15 I wanted to have proper information, and that's why I placed myself as
16 the leader of that commission that was supposed to negotiate with the
17 other parties.
18 And let me just finish this. Our first talks with the
19 representatives of the SDA in -- on the premises of the tax authorities
20 were one of the representatives of the SDA and the member of their
21 commission was also an official of the tax administration was successful.
22 There was a lot of goodwill and we managed to distribute positions
23 amongst ourselves within the first half an hour. And we agreed that on
24 the following day, we would continue distributing the other 50 percent of
25 the functions and positions, but that meeting, on the following day,
1 actually never materialised.
2 Q. And just to clarify, sir, which party were you representing?
3 A. Of the Serbian Democratic Party, because I was also its
4 president. And there was a lot of goodwill on both sides, in both
5 commissions, and within the first two hours we managed to distribute 50
6 per cent of the functions. We were supposed to continue the following
7 day, however, the SDA commission was blocked by their political
8 leadership. Therefore, the talks never continued after that.
9 Q. Were you a member of this commission before you became the party
10 president in September?
11 A. No, I did not know that it existed. I was not involved. Only
12 when I became party leader I learnt about that. And in order to gain
13 proper information, I put myself at the head of the commission and our
14 first task was to distribute functions and positions in the territory of
15 the municipality of Prijedor
16 Q. Right. Let's have a look at some those functions and positions.
17 What position was held by Muhamed Cehajic in 1991 when you became
18 party leader?
19 A. Cehajic. Muhamed Cehajic was president of the Municipal Assembly
20 of Prijedor, according to the party results that ensued as a distribution
21 of political positions in the authorities, in the government.
22 Q. And which party was he a member of?
23 A. The SDA.
24 Q. What about Milomir Stakic?
25 A. Milomir Stakic was vice-president of that same Assembly,
1 Cehajic's vice-president.
2 Q. And which party was he a member of?
3 A. The SDS
4 Q. What about Milan
5 A. Milan Kovacevic was the president of the executive board, the
6 president of the executive power on behalf of the SDS, the Serbian
7 Democratic Party.
8 Q. Do you recall Dusan Baltic?
9 A. Baltic. Yes, I do remember him. He was the secretary of the
10 assembly. He was a lawyer by profession. He a degree in law.
11 Q. Which party was he a member of?
12 A. I don't know if he was a member of any party, but if he was, then
13 he was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party.
14 Q. What was his ethnicity?
15 A. Serb.
16 Q. Let's turn now to Milorad Milakovic?
17 A. Milakovic? He was nothing. Did he not hold any positions either
18 in the police -- or, rather, he was the first president of the
19 Serbian Democratic Party, and then he was replaced by Srdjo and then
20 there were problems, I don't now what problems, and then I followed as
21 the third in that sequence.
22 Q. When you say Srdjo, do you mean Srdjo Srdic?
23 A. Srdjo Srdic, yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us who Radomir Neskovic was and his position?
25 A. Radomir Neskovic was a member of the Main Board of the
1 Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina; later on, Republika
3 Q. And Colonel Arsic?
4 A. Colonel Arsic was an active JNA officer, and he was deployed in
6 Q. What was his ethnicity?
7 A. Serb. And he also hailed from Serbia. He was not a native of
8 our area.
9 Q. Who was Dragan Savanovic?
10 A. Dragan Savanovic was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party
11 from day one. He became a member even before me. He participated in the
12 multi-party elections and he was a deputy in the municipality. And there
13 were Serbs in other parties who also participated in the work of the
14 Assembly but he was also the president of the group of Serbian
15 representatives in the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor.
16 Q. Thank you. Mirza Mujadzic.
17 Sir, who was Mirza Mujadzic?
18 A. Mirza Mujadzic was a physician in the health centre in Prijedor,
19 and after the multi-party elections, he was elected as the president of
20 the SDA, the Party of Democratic Action of the Municipal Board of
22 Q. And, finally, if you could tell us who Slobodan Kuruzovic was?
23 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic was a teacher in one of the primary schools.
24 I don't know in which one. And his war assignment was to be the
25 commander of the TO. He was a reserve major. That's the rank that he
2 Q. What was his ethnicity?
3 A. Serb.
4 Q. Now, sir, we know that you became the president of the SDS party
5 in September of 1991. I want you now to have a look at a document. It's
6 65 ter 10284/50.
7 MS. PIDWELL: P1236.
8 Q. While that's coming up on the screen, sir, over the last couple
9 of days, do you recall listening to the audiotape of two intercepts, two
10 telephone conversations?
11 A. I apologise. Repeat your question.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again I would
13 have to object to this line of questioning. Again we're in 1991. The
14 intercept between Radovan Karadzic and other participants, why is that
15 relevant for this case? Why are we dealing with 1991 and we're not
16 dealing with anything that is relevant for this indictment and for this
18 JUDGE HALL
19 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honour. It's an intercept between this
20 gentleman, two others and Radovan Karadzic. Your Honours are aware that
21 JCE forms a large part of our indictment, and it shows the relationship
22 between the two, the arrangement that were put in place by the SDS in
23 1991 or the events that took place in 1992, and in my submission it is
24 fully relevant. It is already an exhibit, Your Honour, and this man was
25 involved in the conversation.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, but what has it got
3 to do with this indictment and with the police and with this trial? This
4 is not the Karadzic trial, is it?
5 JUDGE HALL
6 and procedure, that, whereas, an indictment has to be drawn with a
7 certain measure of precision in order to make a trial manageable, the
8 events which -- out of the context of which that indictment or the
9 allegations come, doesn't exist in isolation and therefore it is
10 permissible as a matter of evidence to set the context in which the
11 relevant charge is laid.
12 Isn't that the well-settled rule, Mr. Krgovic?
13 Please proceed, Ms. Pidwell.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, sir.
15 Q. Sir -- do you recall listening to an audio version of this
16 intercept a couple of days ago?
17 A. I have to inform the Trial Chamber about that conversation.
18 During that conversation, I was not the president of the SDS
19 They had approached me four or five times with a proposal but I refused.
20 I didn't want them to deal with my name. I didn't know the people that I
21 was supposed to work with.
22 On the fourth or fifth occasion, they managed to convince me to
23 join the party. I felt at that time that it was my obligation to help as
24 much as I could. They thought that I met all the requirements, that's
25 how I accepted, and within that context there was a conversation between
1 Srdjo Srdic who was the president of the party at that time, myself, the
2 representative of the Main Board, Mr. Neskovic, and Radovan Karadzic as
3 the president of the party.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. And just on that, when you say "they approached
5 me," who do you mean?
6 A. Well, a commission, a delegation on behalf of the SDS, Savanovic,
7 Milomir Stakic. I can't remember them all. A few of them, in any case,
8 were members of that delegation. They had problems and they thought that
9 I might be able to deal with all the problems in the party, and I
10 accepted eventually and that's when the conversation took place. I was
11 still not the president of the party. Srdjo Srdic was the president of
12 the party. He participated in the conversation, I did as well. Neskovic
13 was a member of the Main Board who was in charge of dealing with the
14 situation in the party in Prijedor and the president of the party,
15 Radovan Karadzic.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down
17 and articulate. Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 to pace yourself so that they can -- I can empathise with you. I have
20 the same problem.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is very difficult to control
22 what I want to say, my conversation, and the obligation towards others.
23 That's a very difficult thing to do.
24 MS. PIDWELL:
25 Q. Sir, do you recall listening to this conversation on an audio
1 cassette in the last couple of days?
2 A. Yes, the complete conversation reflect what the conversation was
3 all about at the time.
4 Q. Did you recognise your own voice?
5 A. Yes. I also recognised the context of the conversation. When I
6 listened to it, I remember the context of the conversation.
7 Q. Where was this call made from?
8 A. From Srdjo's apartment. From Srdjo Srdic's apartment.
9 Q. And you've referred to the context and given us a little bit of
10 information about that. But can you summarise for us why this
11 conversation was made to Dr. Karadzic at this time?
12 A. The conversation took place because there had been problems in
13 the party. Neskovic explained that. There were two streams in the
14 party. I didn't know all that. But I suppose that had been the reason
15 why they asked me to join the party because they thought I would be able
16 to deal with all that. There were confrontations between two streams or
17 two different parties within the party. One was led by Srdjo Srdic,
18 followed by some older cadre in the party, and the others were all
19 younger, and young people wanted quicker changes and they probably felt
20 animosity toward the older -- the older -- the old being old wanted to
21 control everything in the party and that was the conversation. And
22 that's why things had to be unified in order to prevent the breakup of
23 the party and modalities had to be found as to how to deal with the
24 situation and how to secure all that, to secure the smooth functioning of
25 the party and not its division. And from the context of this
1 conversation, can you see that President Karadzic said if they want to do
2 so, they can establish their own party. They can't be on the list on the
4 there was a confrontation between the two groups, and I don't know who
5 was right and who was wrong.
6 MS. PIDWELL: If we can turn to the page 3 on the English,
7 please. I think it's the same page in the B/C/S. It's -- sorry. The
8 B/C/S is the preceding page, 3006. Yes, thank you.
9 Q. Sir, this is the portion of the conversation between Dr. Karadzic
10 and Neskovic. And if you --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And Neskovic is saying that:
13 "They do not recognise any authority here, especially if you
14 mention Sarajevo
15 Can you see that portion?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Karadzic then continues and says:
18 "Whoever refuses to obey Sarajevo should resign. Write papers
19 for them tomorrow and say this is a party which has its top and its
20 bottom and nobody will fuck under our name, fuck about under our name."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What do you think he meant by that?
23 A. I really don't know. You have to ask him. As a layman I would
24 say that he's talking about the party policies and that everybody has to
25 subscribe to those. Either you fall in or you leave, and that's the case
1 all over the world. You can't be against the party and be a member of
3 MS. PIDWELL: If we now go to the next page in the English,
4 page 4. The next page in the B/C/S.
5 Q. This is a portion where you see you come onto the line. And
6 Karadzic says:
7 "Put Miskovic on, please."
8 Did you know Dr. Karadzic at this time?
9 A. No. I knew him from the press. I knew all of them after the
10 pre-election campaigns and the activities that they were involved in.
11 Q. So this was the first time you'd actually spoken to him?
12 A. Yes, yes, yes, the first time.
13 Q. And he -- sorry. You start talking about the Main Board. Which
14 Main Board are you talking about when you say:
15 "I'm not a member of the Main Board?"
16 A. The Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party in Prijedor, or,
17 rather, not the Main
18 Main Board because I was not aware of the organisation that was in place.
19 I had just joined. So this referred to the Municipal Board most probably
20 I had been informed in the meantime that the president is elected from
21 the Municipal Board and that's why I perhaps said that I was not a member
22 of the Municipal Board but the Main Board and it was my mistake that -- I
23 misspoke and that's the context in which the words were used.
24 Q. And when Dr. Karadzic says:
25 "They cannot give them carte blanche. They are implementing the
1 policies of the party, not the other way around."
2 What was he referring to?
3 A. I was there, and he said that they should further the party
4 policies not some other policies. If they wanted to pursue other
5 policies they had to change their party membership and that's typical of
6 all parties in the world. Those who don't like the party they're with,
7 change things. They establish new parties.
8 MS. PIDWELL: If we go now, please, to page 12 of the English
9 transcript. And in the B/C/S, it's the page headed 3013.
10 Q. This is the portion of the conversation, sir, when Dr. Karadzic
11 is once again talking to Srdja. That's Srdjo Srdic.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And he says, Karadzic says:
14 "Srdja, you see it is not working. The party is stuck. It is
15 not working. You have to yield and let someone finish it."
16 Do you see that portion?
17 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And did Srdja Srdic yield?
19 A. I don't know what they meant. I was listening to this and I did
20 not hear the conversation or, rather, the words of President Karadzic,
21 but I heard what Srdjo Srdic was saying because I was there. I don't
22 know what the yielding was all about, and I know that eventually I was
23 elected the president of the party and that Srdja also remained in the
24 party and that the dissidents, as it were, also remained in the party so
25 I really don't know within that -- within what context was this word
1 used, what was the meaning the word, when he said yielded. And he must
2 have yielded since he accepted me as the president of the party. Did he
3 not object. He did not put up any resistance together with the group of
4 the members of the party that supported him, that was case.
5 Q. And you became the president of the SDS party the very next day,
6 did you not?
7 A. 11 September 1991. I was elected at an assembly meeting -- or,
8 rather, that was the party assembly which held place in the Prijedor
10 Q. And after you took over as the role of the president, did you
11 have regular meetings?
12 A. Well, my principle was to hold regular meetings, to inform each
13 other, to keep abreast of the problems, to find solutions to certain
14 problems, to find people who will be dealing with problems. I thought
15 that was the best type of communication for anybody who wanted to do
16 things right. That was my principle that I adhered to.
17 Q. How often, on average, would these meetings take place?
18 A. Once a week. Once in seven days. I believe that we even had a
19 regular slot on Thursdays, as far as I can remember.
20 Q. Were minutes taken of these meetings?
21 A. Yes, handwritten minutes. Before me there were no minutes. No
22 minutes were taken of any of the meetings, so I was forced to give a task
23 to the secretary to write notes, to write the minutes. I replaced the
24 secretary that I found when I joined and I brought in a new person who
25 was very professional and who kept the minutes of all of the sessions of
1 the Municipal Board. His name was Zoran Stanic.
2 Q. Sir --
3 MS. PIDWELL: Could I please have 65 ter 2662 on the screen?
4 Q. Do you see that document before you, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the title is -- I think we've got the -- go to the next page
7 on the English, please. The book of minutes of the Prijedor SDS
8 Municipal Board meetings, archive book number 7, 1991 volume.
9 MS. PIDWELL: And if we just flick to page -- the first page in
10 the B/C/S where it's handwritten; page 3 perhaps.
11 The next page, please. Thank you.
12 Q. If you have a look at that, just -- do you recognise the
13 handwriting, sir?
14 A. This is the 23rd, is that right, 1991?
15 Q. Yes. You can see that at the top.
16 A. That was before my time, before I came to the head of the party.
17 Q. All right. Do you remember -- you said there were no minutes
18 taken before you became president. Is my recollection correct?
19 A. I didn't find any, and this is why I insisted on it and I even
20 replaced two of the secretaries. There were two secretaries, and I
21 brought this Zoran Stanic who did the job professionally.
22 As for this one, these minutes, I wasn't there at the time, so I
23 don't know.
24 Q. Let's go, for example, to a period of time when you were there
25 which is further on.
1 A. Yes, after the 11th of September.
2 Q. Let's just take a look.
3 MS. PIDWELL: Perhaps if we go to page, in the B/C/S, headed
4 10 -- sorry. 01021655.
5 And the English is 1 -- 00916443.
6 Q. If we just take this as an example, sir, you will see this is a
7 headed 31 January 1992
8 A. 1992, yes, yes.
9 Q. Minutes of the SDS
10 A. Yes, yes, presiding, yes.
11 Q. And there's an agenda with three items underneath it.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Agenda was unanimously adopted. Says Miskovic gave a briefing on
14 the session of the Bosanska Krajina Assembly. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes. Meeting of the Assembly of Bosanska Krajina, and the
16 Serbian Assembly, and the Serbian Assembly of the B and H.
17 Q. Does that mean that you had actually gone to an assembly session
19 A. I don't remember. I can see that it says here Bosanska Krajina
20 and the Serbian Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know the
21 context. It says both, Serbian Krajina and the Serbian Assembly of the
22 B and H. I don't know whether organisation was discussed or something.
23 I cannot remember that now. But, yes, the information, you can see that
24 it's there. It says assemblies, in the plural. The Bosnian Krajina and
25 the Serbian Assembly of the B and H.
1 Q. In your role as president of the SDS for Prijedor, did you
2 attend, on occasion, assembly meetings of the Krajina?
3 A. Yes. I did go from time to time, yes.
4 Q. And would you then report back to your own -- to your own region
5 on whatever was occurring in the assembly session that you attended?
6 A. Not the region but members of the Main Board. I informed them
7 about everything, you know. When I was looking at the material I said
8 that my principle was since the Municipal Board was comprised of members
9 of the local board, I wanted everyone to be acquainted in the region
10 about what's going on so that everybody would be informed of what is
11 going on. That was my principle. Well, as for how much people actually
12 reflect -- respected that request, I don't know. But, anyway, that was
13 my principle, my approach to these matters.
14 Q. Thank you. And if we go to the end of those minutes on that day,
15 which is, in the English, five pages on to 00916447. And in the B/C/S,
16 it's the page headed 01021662.
17 So this looks like the end of the meeting, and you can see there
18 at the -- the bottom it says:
19 "Minutes drafted by ..."
20 And can you work out who drafted those minutes?
21 A. It doesn't say here who drafted it. At least I don't see it.
22 It's not there.
23 Q. My apologies, sir.
24 MS. PIDWELL: I need the next page in the B/C/S.
25 A. Vinko. Vinko, the secretary.
1 Q. Do you know that man?
2 A. Yes. He was one of the secretaries of the Municipal Board.
3 Q. What was his full name? Vinko ...
4 A. I've forgotten his last name. I might remember it later. And as
5 for the other one, I have forgotten both his first and last name. He was
6 an economist by profession. Kos
7 Q. Vinko Kos?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If we go back to the preceding page in the B/C/S only, please.
10 Do you see there, sir, where it mentions that Simo Drljaca is
11 appointed the head of the Committee for Internal Cooperation?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. What was the Committee for Internal Cooperation?
14 A. The Committee for Internal Cooperation was a commission that was
15 supposed to monitor the conduct and activities of members of the party.
16 And then later, Simo will be proposed as chief of the MUP from this post
18 Q. And he was -- was he a member of the SDS Municipal Board at this
20 A. No. He was proposed by Milan Babic, who was a teacher and who
21 was on good terms with him. Milan Babic was a member of the
22 Municipal Board.
23 MS. PIDWELL: If we turn to the next page, please, in the
24 English, which is the next meeting, just to give a further example.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 seems to me that, whereas it appears that you're meticulously laying out
2 a path to take us somewhere, that is it necessary to stop at every street
3 corner and every feature on the road? Could we rapidly get to where you
4 are taking us? You just prefaced your question about to ask for another
5 example, the last example which took us about ten minutes, I'm not sure
6 how illuminating it was.
7 MS. PIDWELL: Well, Your Honour, if you will allow me to tender
8 the book of the minutes of the Prijedor SDS at this juncture, I will
9 simply do that and carry on. But if you -- I was laying the foundation
10 to show that this corroborates his testimony that meetings were held
11 every week, minutes were taken, he presided, and obviously we've got a
12 document which show which shows what occurred at those meetings, agendas,
13 minutes, decision made. If you are happy for me to tender it at this
14 juncture, I will do so and move on to another issue.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 earlier with Mr. Krgovic's intervention about the relevance of these
17 events back to 1991, and remembering well your explanation, would we need
18 all those minute books to be incorporated into the body of evidence?
19 MS. PIDWELL: If my submission, yes, sir. And I wonder if the
20 witness could take off his headphones while I provide my explanation.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 Mr. Miskovic, could you kindly remove your headphones.
23 Yes, Ms. Pidwell.
24 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, it's the Prosecution's position that
25 the takeover of Prijedor was meticulously organised from a high level
1 down through the ranks of the SDS
2 to the police and the army working in close co-operation together.
3 The -- the organisation and the minutes which preceded the actual
4 takeover in April are extremely relevant to the Prosecution proving, not
5 only that the accused Zupljanin was involved in those events, but also
6 that the accused Stanisic was involved in terms of the JCE principles and
7 the involvement of the high-level members of the SDS.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, I find this particular -- this
10 evidence is irrelevant for this case. And precisely this evidence from
11 1991, the Prosecution must be focussed on particular meeting where this
12 plan was done or prepared. Not generally put the -- this kind of
13 evidence. Look at this evidence shown this.
14 So the Prosecution must be focussed on particular meeting when
15 the plan was developed, for example. Allegedly.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 it possible, is it practical to be more precise in terms of the portions
18 of the minutes on which you are relying rather than just putting the
19 whole -- I -- I don't know what volume of material this is we're talking
20 about it. It may be that it is so relevantly small that it is
21 insignificant. But just on the chance, and we're dealing with being
22 burdened with a -- extra paper, is it possible for the Prosecution to be
23 more precise in terms of what it's going to tender?
24 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I was attempting to be precise and
25 take you through particular meetings as examples of what was incorporated
1 in the greater context, and then, at the end, to tender the entire book
2 to show the consistency of these meetings with these examples and
4 I'm really in your hands as to how you would like me to do this.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL
7 would require you to do, is to bring the witness who is presently on the
8 stand home to the various portions of the minutes which are relevant to
9 what you are trying to prove, rather than tendering -- just putting the
10 whole book of minutes in, or books of minutes in.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sir.
12 MS. PIDWELL: Can we have, please, page 00916397 - it's back - on
13 the screen, please. Page 62 in e-court.
14 And it's page 1002 -- sorry. 01021594 in the B/C/S. Page 91.
15 Sorry, I need to start with the commencement of that session. So that
16 would be 01021591 in the B/C/S.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 of the usual time for rising, it seems that this might be a convenient
19 point to take the break, since you're likely to send some time on this.
20 MS. PIDWELL: Yes.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 at 12.05, it will be a 35-minutes duration. We will be resuming at
24 We rise.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 time for the next break. We will rise at 12.10 and resume at 12.40.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE HALL
8 taking us back to the meeting of the 11 of September, 1991?
9 MS. PIDWELL: There is, Your Honour. It is the day he was
10 appointed as the SDS
11 he was involved from -- as the party's president from then on. I will
12 then take you to -- I have selected five additional entries, 11th of
13 September, 27th of December, and then three entries in February from this
14 book of minutes.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MS. PIDWELL:
17 Q. So before the break, we were reviewing entries from the book of
18 minutes from the Prijedor municipality, municipal organs of the
19 Serbian Democratic Party. You will see on your screen the minutes of the
20 11th of September, 1991.
21 MS. PIDWELL: And if we go to the third page in the English, so
22 headed 6399, and in the B/C/S, it's the page headed 1594. Sorry, the
23 English should be 6399. 6399. 64. And the B/C/S should be headed 1594.
24 That's it.
25 Q. We see your name there, sir, under number 1, about halfway down
1 the page, being proposed as a candidate for the post of president of the
3 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
4 Q. And at the bottom of the page we see the conclusions of the vote,
5 with you receiving 121 votes and your opponent 13.
6 A. The second candidate, 13.
7 Q. Is that a true reflection of the voting at the time, to your
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. I want to take you now to the minutes of the 27th of December.
11 MS. PIDWELL: Page 103 in e-court for the English, and page 144
12 in the B/C/S.
13 Q. Do you recall attending the -- this meeting on the 27th of
14 December in your role as president?
15 A. Yes, yes, of course, as the president, I must have done, for
16 sure. And I presided over the meeting too.
17 Q. And we see there, after the agenda, under number 1, that you read
18 out the instruction delivered to the Prijedor Municipal Board of the SDS
19 by the Serbian Assembly. Do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What instruction is that referring to?
22 A. From what I can see at the end, this is Variant B that was
23 involved, and then it says:
24 "Variant B."
25 I assume that that's that.
1 Q. From your perspective of the president of the Prijedor SDS
2 you explain what Variant B -- what the instruction was that we know as
3 Variant A and B?
4 A. Well, Variants A and B existed as instructions for the conduct of
5 the SDS
6 municipality. The first situation was -- would be the one where the
7 Serbs gained the majority in a general election. And the other when
8 somebody else gained a majority. In Prijedor, those would be Muslims.
9 So in Variant B applies to Prijedor.
10 What does it imply, actually? It's about the Serbian People led
11 by the Serbian Democratic Party as the movement for Bosnia who -- and the
12 Serbian People should be protected from any unpleasant surprises that
13 might again lead to the hardship of the Serbian People. In that context
14 and from the instructions set out in Variant B, you can see that it
15 concerns the preparation of the cadres of the representatives of the
16 Serbian People to react in a case of any danger that might lead to the
17 escalation of violence or confrontations and conflicts in that area. In
18 such a situation, or in that situation, Variant II envisaged the
19 establishment or authorities that would assume responsibility for
20 preventing any confrontations. In that -- with that view, the shadow
21 cabinet was formed that composed of Serbian members of the government and
22 others who were not government members. The Territorial Defence
23 functioned along the same principle as a military formation. The head of
24 the Territorial Defence in Prijedor was Slobodan Kuruzovic. And the
25 chief of the MUP was Simo Drljaca who was appointed at Babic's proposal.
1 That was all on paper, as it were.
2 That's how it was until -- for as long as there was a threat of
3 confrontations in the territory of Prijedor
4 Q. From whom did you receive these instructions?
5 A. Received those at a meeting in Sarajevo -- or, rather, in Pale, a
6 meeting that we attended, but I can't be sure of the exact location. All
7 party presidents were present at the meeting, as well as deputies in the
8 National Assembly. The paper was distributed, and we were asked to act
9 accordingly and to convey the instructions to the Municipal Boards and
10 inform them about the existence of the two variants.
11 Q. Who presided over that meeting in Sarajevo?
12 A. The president of the party, Radovan Karadzic.
13 Q. I want to take you now to the minutes of the meeting on the 7th
14 of February.
15 MS. PIDWELL: And if we can have, please, page P113 in e-court in
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 7 January, or, rather, 7 January.
18 MS. PIDWELL: Just one moment.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you take another look? I
20 believe it is the 7th of January, 2002. That's, I believe, what you have
21 in mind.
22 MS. PIDWELL:
23 Q. Well, if we are doing it chronologically, yes, sir. But I'd like
24 to take you to the meeting on 7 February meeting. Which is on page P113
25 in English.
1 A. I apologise, I apologise.
2 MS. PIDWELL: And in the B/C/S, it's 161.
3 Q. So we see here the minutes from the 7th of February with a note
4 that every Thursday at 1700 a meeting of the SDS Prijedor Municipal Board
5 is held.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, yes, yes. I have already told you, as far as I can
8 remember. You can see that is what has been established, that we would
9 be meeting once a week. And it is a Thursday, just as I told you it was,
10 that there was a slot on Thursdays.
11 MS. PIDWELL: And can we go, please, to page 6452 in the English.
12 And 1671 in the B/C/S.
13 Q. I know it's difficult to read, sir, but there is a portion there
14 which in the B/C/S - it may be on the preceding page - but it has got
15 your name above it, Miskovic and it starts:
16 "Since no specific accusations have been brought up ..."
17 The portion I want to draw your attention to is where you say --
18 or it's recorded as you saying:
19 "Our option is to create a Serbian state. There is also the
20 constitution of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and we are waiting for
21 the final solution. Block what we can, until the Serbian state is
22 defined under any option. That is why it is demanded of all of us to as
23 people do our best for the salvation of the Serbian People."
24 Do you see that portion, sir, in the minutes?
25 A. No, I don't. I can't find it. I'm looking, but I can't find it.
1 Where is that? Am I looking at the right page? Ah, now have I
2 got it, our -- yes, "option." Our option is to create ...
3 Where does it say that I'm the one who says this.
4 Q. Sir, if you look at the top of the page --
5 A. I don't see it. I can't find it here. Aha, Miskovic here, okay.
6 Q. Do you accept, sir, that's a --
7 A. I have got it now, yes.
8 Q. Do you accept, sir, that that's a true record of what you said at
9 that meeting?
10 A. Probably, yes.
11 Well, I can't read everything. I would like to be able to see
12 the context and the reason why I said what I did, why this was said in
13 the first place. What was the context of the whole thing.
14 Q. Sir, I want to take you now to the -- a meeting the next week on
15 the 13th of February.
16 MS. PIDWELL: In the English --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it says here three options.
18 MS. PIDWELL: In the English, it's page 119 in e-court.
19 And -- sorry. The B/C/S is page 170.
20 Q. This is minutes of a meeting a week later, on the 13th of
21 February. Once again, at 1715, chaired by you?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes. I chaired every one of them. There's no dispute about
1 MS. PIDWELL: Can we turn now to the next page, please, on each.
2 Thank you.
3 Q. I just want to draw your attention to item number 3, if you can
4 make it out.
5 A. Among --
6 Q. Sorry, in the B/C/S, it's the next page.
7 Just after halfway down the page, sir, there's an item, number 3
8 which is headed any other business. Do you see that?
9 A. Any other business, yes, yes.
10 Q. And it states there that:
11 "Meeting of the Main Board in Sarajevo is scheduled for tomorrow
12 and the local board members and the vice-president are going."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. No, I don't. Under 3, I can see any other reasons meeting of the
15 Main Board in Sarajevo
16 deputies are going and the vice-president. And the vice-president. I
17 don't know who the vice-president is. I don't know who went.
18 Q. Sir, do you recall a meeting which took place on the 14th of
19 February at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo
20 A. I do. That was in 1991, or thereabouts, I think. I think it was
21 in 1991. Or maybe 1992, at the beginning. Or in 1991, I -- I believe.
22 When communication was still normal, when relations were still normal.
23 MS. PIDWELL: I have one more entry to go, but just -- I'm going
24 to move to another document and I'll come back to the last entry in this
25 series of minutes. If I could have 65 ter 01725. It's P1358-17.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry, that's the wrong document. It's P1353 --
3 sorry. I said 58. 1353.17.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just the table number, please, or
5 the tab number.
6 MS. PIDWELL: Tab 13A.
7 I apologise, Your Honours. This is an ERN range. It's a series
8 of receipts and trying to identify the particular one which relates to
9 the witness.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. PIDWELL: I'm told that the quickest way is to put it in
12 Sanction, if Your Honours are happy with that.
13 Q. Sir, do you see this -- this document in front of you, and are
14 you able to read it?
15 A. Not really.
16 Q. Would you expect that it's a receipt from the Holiday Inn hotel
17 in Sarajevo
18 A. Well, I can see it is. But I can't see my name. But that
19 doesn't mean I wasn't there. I was. But I can't see it in here. I
20 don't see my own name on this receipt, and I can't see the date well
21 either. But I did spend the night at Holiday Inn. I was there.
22 Now I can see it in this receipt. I can see Miskovic,
23 15 February, but I don't know what year. Well, I -- I certainly was at
24 Holiday Inn. I attended a meeting of the Main Board. I also overnighted
25 at the hotel. There's no dispute about that at all.
1 Q. Let's move on then. Back to the book of minutes, please, and
2 we'll go to the last entry that I want to deal with, which was on the
3 17th of February.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Miskovic, while we're waiting for the next
5 document to come up, I think there's still an outstanding issue of
6 exactly which year you were at Holiday Inn. Was it from the 14th to the
7 15th February, 1991
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember. I only remember
9 that the relations were still normal, which means that all parties and
10 party representatives communicated, and I know that after having spent
11 that night in Holiday Inn, in the morning, I met Mirza Mujadzic, an SDA
12 member. He had come in a Golf II car of green colour. I asked him where
13 he got the car from, and he says, Alija gave me, and then we joked and I
14 told him, Well, we don't have the money to buy cars, why don't you get us
15 the money to buy a car for us. Then relations were still normal. We
16 still joked together. We joked around, and things were quite differently
17 then. And I'm still not sure about the date. And I'm not disputing the
18 fact that there was a meeting, that we overnighted at the hotel. There
19 is nothing in dispute about that.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Of course, it makes a great difference whether
21 this meeting took place in 1991 or 1992.
22 But I give the floor back to Ms. Pidwell.
23 MS. PIDWELL:
24 Q. Sir, when you attended this meeting, was it in your capacity as
25 president of the SDS
1 A. Yes, as the president of the Municipal Board of the SDS in
2 Prijedor, and members of the National Assembly from Prijedor also
3 attended. Srdjo Srdic and Timara Teser [phoen].
4 Q. And we know that you were elected on the 11th of September, 1991
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So by natural common sense, if you attended this meeting after
8 your election as president, it would have been in the year 1992; is that
10 A. I said that that either was in late 1990 or early 1991. But I
11 don't know exactly when it was. All I know is that the relations were
12 normal and that we were still able to crack jokes together. And that's
13 the only time that I spent a night at Holiday Inn. That was the only
14 occasion for me.
15 Q. Sir, you said late 1990 or early 1991. In late 1990 and early
16 1991 --
17 A. No, no, late 1991. I misspoke, I'm sorry. 1991 or early 1992.
18 I misspoke, I apologise.
19 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to the book of minutes and this may
20 clarify things once and for all.
21 MS. PIDWELL: Let's go to the 17th of February. English, it's
22 page 122; and the B/C/S, in e-court, it's 174.
23 Q. Sir, the first item on the agenda we see is the briefing on the
24 meeting of the Main Board and the Serbian Assembly of BH. And then it
1 "After adopting the agenda (28 items) Simo Miskovic,
2 president, ... gave a briefing on the meeting held in Sarajevo
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes, I do. Yes, that's all right. You see that was an assembly
5 meeting. I thought it was a Main Board meeting, but it was an assembly
6 meeting, as can you see.
7 Q. And --
8 A. Of course, I'm talking about party meetings.
9 Q. And there's a report there, your report, that Dr. Karadzic was
10 the main speaker; do you see that?
11 A. Yes, yes. As the party president.
12 Q. And you report that there's been an act of cessation of the BH --
13 do you see that?
14 A. Cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the part of the SDA. And in
15 that sense, we were forced to create national or ethnic communities.
16 That's how I read it. National communities on -- on problems.
17 Q. So you're --
18 A. I don't know. I can't ...
19 The position of the European community was stated. The European
20 community will not interfere with internal solutions of the -- that's all
21 in the minutes, the discussion on the Serbian, so on and so forth.
22 Q. Yes, sir. Do you recall that you're relaying, or are you
23 relaying what -- what was -- what occurred at the meeting in Sarajevo
24 back to your Municipal Board?
25 A. That was a rule I followed, and I did it at that time. I always
1 informed the Municipal Board and since Municipal Boards were also
2 composed of presidents of local boards, I asked them to inform members at
3 local levels. That was the principle of work I always followed.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. PIDWELL: Now we can move -- I think the English is the same.
6 But if we could move, please, to the next page in the B/C/S. It's about
7 halfway -- the second paragraph in the B/C/S, so halfway down the page.
8 Q. You see it's a continuation of your report on this meeting. And
9 it stated there that you reported:
10 "That Serbs shall not participate in any way in the referendum
11 conducted by the SDA."
12 Do you see that?
13 A. I can't find that, but I know that that happened. His
14 participation in -- or in the aspect in the referendum, which has been
15 conducted by the SDA ... in view of that.
16 Q. What referendum --
17 A. To activate the second page of the position stated by the SDS BH
18 Main Board. Or, rather, to activate the territory and the population,
19 Serbs, in brackets, by activists. It -- I don't know. I can't read it.
20 I can't --
21 Q. I appreciate it's difficult, sir. But do you -- my question is:
22 Was there a direction for the Serbs not to participant in the referendum
23 which was being conducted by the SDA at that time?
24 A. Well, of course, it was. Because the goal was to secede Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina from Yugoslavia and that's the context of the entire
1 story, and, in that regard, the Serbs thought that it would be
2 threatened, and for that reason they refused to participate in the
3 referendum because the decision on the referendum was worded in that
4 sense, and it was made by the rump assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
5 they excluded representatives of the Serbian People from any of that.
6 Q. And was there also a direction to activate the second stage of
7 the Variant A and B instruction?
8 A. I don't know if it was at that point in time, but you can see
9 from the document that it was activated at the point in time when there
10 was a threat that there could be a confrontation, a conflict, escalation
11 of the conflict. In that case the Variant B would go into effect. And
12 as you could see, following the entire course of the events, and after
13 the takeover of power, that there were no confrontations. It -- they
14 didn't happen before or after that until the incidents that led to the
15 escalation of events. I'm talking about the genesis of events, actually,
16 until this formation.
17 Q. The minutes that we're looking at, sir, say -- or report that
18 it's necessary to activate the second stage of the position stated by the
20 Do you accept that at this meeting --
21 A. Variant B, yes.
22 Q. Do you accept that at this board meeting the conclusion was made
23 to activate the second stage of Variant B, by the Prijedor Municipal
25 A. You mean was that a decision by the Municipal Board at the time
1 that work should be done on the activation of Variant B? Is that what
2 you meant? If that's what you meant, then, yes. Preparations.
3 MS. PIDWELL: And if we turn to the next page in the English.
4 And in the B/C/S it is the page headed 160, so two pages on.
5 Q. There's some discussion there headed by Srdjo Srdic about the
6 Serbian coat of arms anthem and flag which was unanimously adopted by the
7 Municipal Board. Can you see that in your version?
8 A. Yes. I can see that it says Srdjo Srdic here. An important
9 argument about our transformation is our plebescite which we implemented,
10 yes. The creation ... there was a ... directives emigration, migrations
11 and moving in and the substitution of territories is inevitable.
12 I -- I can't read this.
13 Q. Just pause, please, sir.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I've come to the conclusion of the
15 extracts from this book of minutes.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: But before we leave the page here, Mr. Miskovic,
17 do you recall what was meant by the substitution of territories?
18 If you read again the last lines of what you just read out from
19 the minutes, do you know --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Srdjo Srdic was a deputy from the
21 Prijedor municipality. Most probably, with a reserve here. Most
22 probably this was something that was discussed at the Serbian Assembly of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina in which he took part as a deputy and that he is
24 then informing the Municipal Board about that in this context. I don't
25 know if, at the level of the B and H, there was a conversation among the
1 party representatives, I don't know. He was a deputy, so this is
2 probably something relating to that, something in which he took part.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand that, sir. My question to you is:
4 If you recall, what exactly Mr. Srdic meant when he referred to the
5 substitution of territories.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Territories. From this perspective
7 I can only assume that this was a question of exchanging territories with
8 the concentration of one population with those -- with the concentration
9 of the other population. I mean, I am just assuming that. I cannot
10 recall that, really, on the basis of this.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, sir, you were there. You took part in the
12 discussions about this. You must have had some sort of an idea what was
13 going to happen and, actually, in light of what later on did happen.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What happened later are the
15 consequences. As I said, most probably, this conversation might reflect
16 something that possibly was a conversation at the top of the leadership
17 in the parliament between party members. I don't know that, and I assume
18 that Srdjo Srdic was reporting this at our meeting of the Municipal Board
19 because at our meetings, this item was never something that was on the
20 agenda at the Main Board in which -- in the work of which I participated.
21 I know that. I don't know whether this took place some -- at the
22 parliament or the Serbian Assembly that had split off so I assume that
23 Srdjo Srdic is informing about this as a parliament reporting back the
24 information that has to do with these proposals relating to the exchange
25 of territories. Everything else that I could say would be incorrect.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: When you -- when you say that there was supposed
2 to be an exchange of territories, just how was that supposed to -- to
3 take place? Do you mean that -- that Muslims would give up territories
4 in one place in return for getting territories in another place? Is that
5 what you mean by the expression "exchange of territories"?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said this earlier, this is
7 precisely what I meant, that this was something discussed and agreed at
8 some other level. This was not put on the agenda on the party and it was
9 never discussed in the Main Board or the Municipal Board. This is an
10 idea that Srdjo Srdic, as a people's deputy, probably discussed at the
11 Serbian Assembly where suggestions may have been put forward on one and
12 the other side perhaps. I don't know about that. He was relaying back
13 information here about that, but I don't know anything specifically about
14 that report.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: And just to clarify before I give the floor back
16 to Ms. Pidwell, you are saying that this issue of exchange of territories
17 was never discussed at the Municipal Board in Prijedor?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
19 The Main Board where I participated, as far as I know, never
20 discussed that. It was never on the agenda.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, just one small clarification for the
22 transcript because it is not properly recorded what the witness say.
23 It's page 42, line 7, witness said when I said this is precisely what I
24 said and it was discussed on the republic level, and after that, this is
25 the ... .
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm not sure what to make of your observation,
2 Mr. Krgovic. I suppose that what we --
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Just maybe please can repeat the answer.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please --
5 Right. Mr. Miskovic, following the intervention by Mr. Krgovic,
6 I would kindly ask you to repeat your last answer, if you could.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The party meetings, meetings of the
8 party of the Municipal Board and the Main Board where I was present, the
9 topic of exchange of territories was never on the agenda.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.
11 Back to Ms. Pidwell.
12 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Your Honours, I have, as you see, extracted five or six -- six, I
14 think, days of the minutes from this book. My submission is that the
15 whole book should be tendered to provide the overall context and
16 continuity of the meetings that were held by the board. It's one
17 document, if we're talking about a hard copy document and the relevant
18 portions have obviously been highlighted in the transcript. But in my
19 submission, it's more appropriate for the entire document to be exhibited
20 because there may be other portions of it that become relevant at a later
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Pidwell.
23 I think you set out to identify the portions of this book of
24 minutes in which the planning of the takeover of Prijedor was discussed
25 or mentioned, and having now seen the five or six passages to which you
1 have referred, I'm not sure that this refers directly to the takeover of
3 So my question to you is: Are there other passages in the book
4 of minutes which do address, or mention, or refer to the possible
5 discussions in the SDS
6 the municipality of Prijedor
7 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honour, it's not as simple as identifying one
8 or two conversations in this book of minutes about the takeover. The
9 takeover was -- perhaps if the witness could take off his headphones,
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Miskovic, would you be good enough to take
12 off your headphones, just for a second.
13 MS. PIDWELL: It's the Prosecution's position that the -- the
14 takeover was planned meticulously at several different levels. What was
15 happening was instructions were coming from above as -- and there are
16 some examples in the book of minutes of that. Instructions being
17 received, the Variant A and B, which he then reads out to the board and
18 then is implemented in various ways which are not directly recorded as we
19 are now implementing X, Y and Z of Variant B but within the minutes can
20 you see examples of it actually occurring. So it's the Prosecution's
21 position that by reading the entire set of minutes, you get a sense of
22 what was happening in the area at the time and the planning that was
23 going on, the discussions that were taking place, the shadow government
24 that was being set out and was waiting in the wings, and this all
25 happened -- and what the witness will say was an extremely successful
1 bloodless takeover because the -- of the planning that was involved.
2 Now, we have this book of minutes. It is contemporaneous with
3 the meetings that were taking place. He was authenticated it to the
4 point where he says, yes, those meetings took place with even the detail
5 being the time and the place, and so forth, and it's my submission that
6 this would assist Your Honours greatly when considering the background to
7 what is -- what took place in Prijedor.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE HALL
10 You may replace your headphones.
11 The Chamber, by a majority, agrees that the book -- that -- that
12 the minutes, as a whole, could and should be admitted. However, as a
13 purely practical matter, we are concerned, less immediately than down the
14 road, when we must assess the evidence as to how to -- and I'm trying to
15 avoid the use of the word highlight because it has such a variety of
16 meanings. We can highlight what it is we ought to be directed to beyond
17 what you have already done by the viva voce evidence you have led from
18 the witness. Perhaps you are not in a position to answer that particular
19 question now. We're only saying the book may be admitted. But we alert
20 you that there is a practical problem which we would need your assistance
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: And for the record, may I add that my dissent was
23 that I think we should admit only the parts that you have shown to the
24 witness and nothing more.
25 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, if you would permit me. I
1 know I'm not the lawyer leading this witness, but as one of the two
2 Senior Trial Attorneys on the case, this is a matter of general concern
3 and I would like to speak briefly on it, if I may.
4 These kind of documents, minutes of meetings, for example, I
5 think I made a similar argument in connection with some of the Assembly
6 sessions. I understand your point. And I understand your fear that
7 we're giving you 5.000 pages of something and you don't want to have to
8 read 5.000 pages, and we're not asking to read 5.000 pages.
9 At the end of the case, when we're making our submissions, we
10 will point to you the portions of collections like this that we think are
11 important, but part of the reason we ask they come in in their entirety
12 at this stage is because at this point we don't even know what may be
13 important. At the end of the case it may important that on January 2nd,
14 so-and-so was at a particular meeting, made reference to having attended
15 a meeting two days before, and corroborates another document and another
16 witness, something that may come into being a contested issue between now
17 and the end of the case.
18 But then we will address that in our final submissions, and the
19 Defence will address in their final submissions what parts they think are
20 important. And that's why, as a general matter, some of these things we
21 think it's important take in their entirety so that you don't lose
22 context that may be important at the end of the case.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for this clarification.
25 My immediate observation, speaking only for myself and not on
1 behalf of the Chamber in this matter, is that we have the witness on the
2 stand, and I think that the primary evidence to be elicited about the
3 planning of the takeover of Prijedor, of course, is the witness. So
4 let's put the questions to him and see how much he is able to provide us
5 in terms of evidence of discussions or plans or considerations that may
6 have been taken place at the time. And if the witness's testimony can
7 then be corroborated by reference in the minutes, then that's fine. If
8 not, then what we have is the witness.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record I need to indicate
10 that 65 ter 02662 shall be given Exhibit P01610. Thank you,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 Please continue, Ms. Pidwell.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. If
15 nothing else, then can I just state my objection to the transcript. I
16 think the Prosecution was obliged to identify the relevant parts now, not
17 in their closing arguments so that we are able to follow the proceedings.
18 I would like to object to the relevance of the document, because I have
19 not established a link with the indictment and what my client is being
20 charged with.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 you would have gathered from what has passed between the Bench and
23 counsel for the Prosecution, that we, too, share the concern that the
24 evidence of the -- from the -- from the body of material that the
25 evidence on which they are relying has to be highlighted in some manner.
1 So we share your concern.
2 Yes, Ms. Pidwell, please --
3 MS. PIDWELL:
4 Q. Sir, I'm going to take you back in time to a second conversation
5 you had with Dr. Karadzic in November 1991.
6 MS. PIDWELL: And it's tab 6, P1557.8.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's not tab 6, Ms. Pidwell. Sorry.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: In our papers, tab 6 is P1238.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: And unless --
10 MS. PIDWELL: I appear to have a different version, but it is
11 the -- Your Honour is correct; it is P1238. It's the transcript of the
12 intercept on the 15th of November that I'm looking for.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the minutes.
15 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry, that's P1238.
16 Q. Do you recall, sir, listening to the audio of this telephone
17 intercept a couple of days ago?
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have an English version, please.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember, yes.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: There seems to be no English version,
22 Ms. Pidwell.
23 MS. PIDWELL: Well, I certainly have one, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
25 MS. PIDWELL: There doesn't appear to be one in e-court.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: In e-court, yes.
2 MS. PIDWELL: What I might do, Your Honours, is I'll leave that
3 for a later stage, we'll upload one, and I'll come back to it.
4 I'd like to go to tab 11, which is 65 ter 399, please.
5 Q. You see the document on your screen, sir, is dated the 8th of
6 January refers back to --
7 A. The 7th of January. The 7th of January. The 7th of January,
8 1991. Yes, I see that's what it says here.
9 And the date is at the bottom on the left-hand side. The 8th of
10 January, 1992. And at the top, it's ...
11 Q. Yes. The document is dated 8th of January, 1992. And it's a
12 decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Prijedor, as a result
13 of the session on the 7th of January, 1992.
14 And do you recall that this session on the 7th of January was
15 the -- the session which was the first time that the Serbian
16 municipality -- or the Assembly - sorry - met formally?
17 A. Yes, yes. 7th of January.
18 Q. And you elected a president of the assembly at that time?
19 A. No. The president of the assembly. The fax is for the
20 president. He was already -- the fax was for the elected president. And
21 also the presidents of the local councils, boards, in order to complete
22 the number of the board members. It says the 28 representatives of the
23 Serbian -- of the boards and 41 presidents of the local boards of the
25 Q. So you're saying -- sorry. Presidents -- the president was
1 Milomir Stakic; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes.
3 Q. And are you saying that he was already the president and that
4 this was simply being formalised in the assembly session when it met for
5 the first time?
6 A. Stakic was vice-president in the joint government. He was given
7 that position after the division of powers of the parliamentary
8 elections. However, when the Serbian Assembly was established, he was
9 vice-president, so automatically he became president of that assembly as
10 a Serb, and all the Serbian deputies, whether they were members of the
12 they also became members of that assembly and Milomir Stakic became the
13 president of that assembly, and that assembly was made up by presidents
14 of the local boards in local territories in keeping with the instructions
15 that we had been given.
16 So, in Prijedor, there were 41 of them in total, plus those
18 Q. And just to clarify, the Stakic who you are referring to is the
19 same one that was indicted by this Tribunal?
20 A. Milomir Stakic.
21 Q. Who was the vice-president of the assembly?
22 A. I can't remember. I can't remember.
23 Q. And do you recall what positions the other leaders of the
24 community took at this time? For example, Kovacevic.
25 A. Kovacevic was already the president of the Executive Board and he
1 remained the president of the Executive Board in the Serbian Assembly.
2 Let me inform the Chamber so that the Chamber knows. The
3 establishment of the Serbian Assembly was in case that they were supposed
4 to take over power, in case we were supposed to secede, we had to have
5 bodies that functioned already. They were not functioning. The joint
6 bodies were still functioning so this was just the establishment of the
7 assembly according to Variant B and the Serbian presidents, and Serbian
8 bodies were established and elected in case there was a cessation of the
9 Serbian territories from the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We always
10 wanted to have authorities in place and that's how they had been created
11 and that's how they were composed of, from the cadre that has just been
12 shown. The joint government still functioning properly at the time in
14 Q. And just to clarify, once again, the Kovacevic that you're
15 referring to is the same one that was also indicted by this Tribunal?
16 A. Yes, Mile Kovacevic. After parliamentary elections, he was the
17 president of the Executive Board, and here he was appointed as the
18 president of the Executive Board of the Serbian Assembly.
19 Q. What role did Simo Drljaca take at this time? What position?
20 A. Simo Drljaca, this Drljaca, Drljaca, Simo, was appointed the
21 chief of the MUP. But as I've told you, did he not perform the duties
22 just like nobody else did. Those were just bodies that were established
23 just in case.
24 Q. And just to clarify, the Drljaca that you're referring to is also
25 the same one that was indicted by this Tribunal?
1 A. Simo Drljaca, yes, yes. Simo Drljaca, yes.
2 Q. Were there other appointments similar to these where people were
3 given positions just in case?
4 A. The complete authorities, the old institutions, were established
5 and each of the institutions had its people. Mr. [indiscernible] was,
6 for example, appointed the president of the court. He was a judge in the
7 basic court, and so on and so forth, so all the institutions had been
8 covered with physical people.
9 MS. PIDWELL: If I could tender that document, please, at this
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01611, Your Honours.
13 MS. PIDWELL: If I could go to tab 12, please. 65 ter 400.
14 Q. Sir, you see that document on your screen. It's a decision of
15 the newly formed assembly --
16 A. Yes. Based on the book of rules, the assembly, and so on and so
17 forth, very well ... emerging of the -- yes.
18 Q. And you see it's the decision to join the Autonomous Region of
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to tender that at this stage, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01612, Your Honours.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this decision was not made by
25 the Municipal Board. It was made by the newly established assembly of
1 the Serbian People, and the signatory of the document is
2 Dr. Milomir Stakic.
3 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.
4 Your Honour, I'm not sure of the timing of the break. I thought
5 it was round about now.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
9 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, if I could have P1238, please.
10 Once again, Your Honours, I think I might come back to that.
11 That's the intercept which we thought we had -- ah, we do have. I'll
12 stay with it while we have it.
13 Q. Sir, do you recall listening to the audiotaped intercept
14 conducted on the 15th of November, 1991, between yourself and
15 Radovan Karadzic, a few days ago?
16 A. Yes, I did listen to all of them.
17 Q. Did you recognise your voice on the recording?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. And did you recognise the voice of Dr. Karadzic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And this is an occasion shortly after the plebescite where you
22 instigate a call to Dr. Karadzic; do you recall that?
23 A. I remember I called him and then they told me that he was asleep.
24 And later on when I called, my first question was, is he still asleep,
25 and then I introduced myself, they told me hang on and they put me
2 Q. And do you recall what prompted you to make this call to
3 Dr. Karadzic at this time?
4 A. I wanted to inform him about the plebescite and the result
5 thereof as there was, indeed, a plebescite in the territory of Prijedor
7 Q. Yes.
8 MS. PIDWELL: And if we can go to the next page, please, on each.
9 Q. You'll see at the top of the page in English and in B/C/S you --
10 you say:
11 "Over 60 per cent almost. We are stronger."
12 What was that in reference to?
13 A. It was in reference to the ratio of the Serbs versus the Muslims.
14 According to the 1991 census, there were 1 per cent Muslims more than
15 Serbs, and when we were taking names for the plebescite, we listed the
16 entire electoral body for Prijedor and when we ended up with this number.
17 Therefore, I'm informing Mr. Karadzic that, according to that
18 list, there were more Serbs in Prijedor than Muslims. And I hedged that
19 number a little by about 10 per cent for any mistakes or double names,
20 any mistakes made by those who were compiling the lists.
21 Q. And you go on to talk about the deadlock that has been in place
22 in your party in Prijedor for the preceding eight months.
23 A. Not in the party. Look here, when I presented the data, as you
24 can see in this conversation, when I presented the data, I had consulted
25 with the president of the party in order to see if he has any proposals
1 for any activities with regard to the situation we established on the
2 ground. And then he told me to -- or, rather, he -- I draw his attention
3 to the fact that the work of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor was
4 blocked because of the -- the inability to divide the powers and sectors
5 in the municipality between the parties. I'm telling him the work of the
6 Municipal Assembly has been blocked for eight or nine months. I suppose
7 that this due to the division of powers. That's what I'm saying. And I
8 ask him -- and I don't understand why I said this. Government elections
9 that is what I meant. I wanted to consult you, Simovic, and Krajisnik.
10 I wanted to see with you, to analyse everything, to see exactly and to
11 know what, who, and how. I don't want to do anything before we analyse
12 things. I want to be sure when I do something.
13 Q. What exactly were you -- what information or direction were you
14 seeking from Dr. Karadzic at this time?
15 A. How to move on. The facts are there, the numbers are there. The
16 assembly has been in a deadlock for eight months. We cannot go on living
17 like that. There's a threat of new conflicts because there was no legal
18 authorities, and that's why I'm consulting the president to see what to
19 do, given the situation as it was. Because all of our efforts had fallen
20 through. And the plebescite had been organised in order to see what to
21 do next. The Serbs were against seceding from Yugoslavia, and in my
22 proofing session, I told you that some of the Muslims had also voted in
23 the plebescite and were in favour of Bosnia and Herzegovina remaining in
25 Q. And what -- do you recall what instruction you actually received
1 from Dr. Karadzic? What were you to do with this result?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know what he told me. You can't see it in
3 this conversation.
4 He referred me to Simovic. He told me to talk to him. Simovic
5 was a lawyer and he could probably advise me better. But whatever they
6 gave me, whatever they told me, they asked me to comply with the
7 constitution and with the laws, that I shouldn't do anything that went
8 beyond the constitution and the laws that were in effect.
9 Q. Did you hold fresh elections in the municipality?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You go on in this conversation to discuss an issue that has
12 arisen in the police.
13 MS. PIDWELL: And if I can turn, please, to the next page in the
14 English. And in the B/C/S, it's also the next page.
15 Q. About halfway down you say:
16 "And another thing ..."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. "... separate issue we have policemen coming to us from various
20 courses without vacancy announcements or anything."
21 What was the issue there?
22 A. I don't see that. What -- where? It's not on my screen. No --
23 Q. If you go halfway down, sir, where it says -- you say and another
24 thing, Dr. Karadzic says yes. And then you say: "I am treating it
25 as" --
1 A. No, no, not on my screen. No, no, not on my screen. I don't see
2 this. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Aha. Yes, and another thing, yes.
3 Because -- I don't know whether you're -- if you have been update on it
4 and its progress:
5 "We have policeman coming to us from various courses, without
6 vacancy announcements or anything. Who is behind this? Who bringing
7 in ..."
8 Here we have information that new men were joining the police
9 without any training, without any degrees, and we didn't know what system
10 was behind that, whether it was a party system, a professional system,
11 whether there was a need to increase the number of police officers and
12 that was the contexts, yes.
13 Q. And Dr. Karadzic says, responses, by saying:
14 "Check this with Stojan, please."
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who is he referring to?
18 A. Stojan Zupljanin, I suppose. There was no other Stojan. No
19 Stojan in my police.
20 Q. And then you go on to say that you called him at home. Are you
21 referring to Stojan Zupljanin then?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you actually make conduct with Stojan Zupljanin on this
25 A. No, no. No, I did not.
1 Q. You didn't follow that up in any way?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was that because it was something that was outside of your area
4 of control and -- and a pure police matter or was there some other
6 A. It was not a party matter. It was a professional matter. As the
7 party president, I received information about that, and I informed my
8 president because he needed to be abreast of the situation. But that was
9 a police matter. I always tried to look into all sorts of problems and
10 how to deal with them, but that's a different matter. But when it comes
11 to getting in touch with Stojan, no, I didn't get in touch with him.
12 MS. PIDWELL: I'd like to turn now to another document. It's
13 tab 13. It's 65 ter 786.
14 Q. You'll see, sir, this document is dated the 3rd of February.
15 It's from the assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, Banja Luka
16 concluding that the municipal assemblies of the ARK should not organise
17 any activities regarding the referendum which was scheduled for late
18 February/early March, on the basis that that referendum was
19 unconstitutional and illegal.
20 Do you recall receiving this conclusion from the ARK Assembly?
21 A. It's very difficult to say whether I received it. Are you
22 referring to the entire government or -- I don't really know if the party
23 was even supposed to receive this. Because this is along the
24 authorities' line and if anybody received it, it may have been Stakic.
25 Q. In -- in the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, were any activities
1 put in place regarding the referendum?
2 A. No. Are you referring to the Serbian population?
3 Q. Yes, I'm referring to the Serbian population.
4 A. Yes. No, no. No, we didn't do that. We had a plebescite, and
5 we expressed our position by means of the plebescite. We didn't
6 participate in the referendum.
7 I don't know if any individuals participated in the referendum
8 because, for example, there were Muslim individuals who took part in
9 the -- in the plebescite, so I really don't know whether there were any
10 Serb individual who is decided to vote in the referendum. I don't know
11 that. I can't tell you that.
12 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to tender that document, Your Honour.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, I object to that. There is no proper
14 link for that because the witness has -- had no knowledge about this
15 document about this [indiscernible]. He never received it.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 of events.
18 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE HALL
20 MS. PIDWELL: It's accepted that he is not the author of this
21 document and he did not receive it. However, he was on the Municipal
22 Assembly of Prijedor and this is an instruction from above, from the
23 ARK Assembly in order to -- well, not to participate in the plebescite
24 that was being arranged towards the end of the month. And on his
25 evidence, he said that he did not participate in the plebescite, the Serb
1 population did not participate in the plebescite.
2 So in my submission, he is -- he has spoken to the body of the
3 text by essentially saying it was followed in the municipality of
4 Prijedor and I'm seeking to tender it on that basis.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 between the document and the witness?
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. KRGOVIC: And the other thing, he was not member of municipal
9 assembly, what Ms. Pidwell quoted. He was not part of local assembly.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE HALL
12 knew about the effect of this. But, still, there is no -- you haven't
13 establish any closer connection between him and the instruction.
14 MS. PIDWELL: I'm unable to establish a connection between him
15 and the document. He said he didn't know about the instruction in
16 particular, which is formulated in this. But he knew that -- he -- he --
17 gave evidence that that -- it was followed on the ground, so to speak in
18 Prijedor that when the referendum took place, the Serbs did not
20 JUDGE HALL
21 Because I didn't understand him to say that it was followed. After all,
22 his evidence was that he didn't know about it. But admittedly, he agrees
23 with the result.
24 It seems to me that you would need a witness who is more closely
25 connected with this document in order to tender it, not through this
2 MS. PIDWELL: If that's Your Honours' ruling, then I would ask
3 for it to be MFI
4 JUDGE HALL
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1613, marked for identification,
6 Your Honours.
7 MS. PIDWELL: 65 ter 48, please, on the screen. It's tab 15.
8 Q. Sir, you see on your screen a document dated 13th of March, 1992
9 from the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic Party addressed to all
10 Municipal Boards of the Serbian Democratic Party.
11 Now, firstly, do you see the handwriting at the top of that
13 A. I do. Titova 7 a.
14 Q. What does that mean?
15 A. That's an address, but I don't know whose. It may have been the
16 party address or some other address in Prijedor. I really am not in a
17 position to tell you what this address represents.
18 Q. And whose handwriting is it?
19 A. Mine.
20 Q. And this document says:
21 "In accordance with the stance adopted, you are required to
22 assess the possibility of establishing a Serbian municipality in your
23 [sic] area of activity."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. So this is an instruction to the Municipal Boards to establish or
2 to assess the possibility of establishing Serb municipalities. Do you
3 accept that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you obviously received this document in order to write on it.
6 What did you -- do you recall when and how you received it?
7 A. Not only because I drafted it but also because it is addressed to
8 the Municipal Board and since I was its president, it's only normal that
9 I received it. I don't know when I received it. But I do remember that
10 this document did arrive and this refers only to the areas inhabited by
11 the Serbian population. Those areas had to establish their municipal
12 assemblies or municipalities. We did not even go into the areas where
13 Muslims resided, and that's why the wording here is to assess the
15 MR. KRGOVIC: I do apologise. Just one small correction for the
16 transcript because it is not properly recorded what witness said in the
17 page 61, line 21. Not only because -- he says -- it says not only
18 because I drafted it, also because it addresses ...
19 That's not what the witness said, so ...
20 MS. PIDWELL: Perhaps I will clarify with the witness. It is a
21 matter of interpretation.
22 Q. Sir, correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't draft or write this
23 document, did you?
24 A. No, I didn't. You see, it says the Serbian Democratic Party
25 Executive Board. It is probably the republican and letter was sent to
1 all the Municipal Boards including mine. That's why I received it. I'm
2 sure I received this document. That document was signed by Rajko Dukic,
3 the president of the Executive Board of the SDS. So this document
4 reached me along the party line, and the fact that the document reached
5 me is confirmed that I wrote this address in my own handwriting so there
6 is nothing in dispute about all that. The top leadership of the party
7 sent this document down to us.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 was recorded as having said that he drafted it, in the context of the
11 remainder of ...
12 MS. PIDWELL: Is that sufficient clarification for Your Honours
14 JUDGE HALL
15 MS. PIDWELL:
16 Q. Are you able to recall, sir, which territories of the Prijedor
17 municipality would fall within the definition of those which would become
18 parts of the Serbian municipality?
19 A. You can see in the document that those were the areas and parts
20 which means local communes inhabited by Serbs and parts of local communes
21 inhabited by Serbs which means that we will only be dealing -- we will
22 not be dealing with areas inhabited by Muslims and Croats.
23 If I could be given the map that I saw yesterday, local communes
24 are depicted in that map, and it would be easy to see which areas we're
25 talking about.
1 Q. Well, let's pull that map up.
2 MS. PIDWELL: Tab 1. P1526.
3 Right. Perhaps the usher can assist the witness with marking the
5 Q. Sir, you are able to do some markings on the screen. And perhaps
6 if you could indicate on the map which areas would form part of the
7 Serbian municipality pursuant to this -- this direction.
8 A. I don't see those areas. I can see just small parts thereof.
9 For example, Brezicani is one of then. Cejreci no, that's Muslims.
10 Omarska, most of them Muslims. Kozarac, Mostar, Muslim. Kozarac,
11 [indiscernible] Trnopolje, Kevljani. Omarska, yes. Omarska, yes.
12 Aracici, no. Bicavana, no Croats. [Indiscernible] Zecavina [phoen],
13 Rakocini, [indiscernible] Bicani [phoen]. Biska Glava would be, but
14 Palanciste is missing. Prijedor 2 is missing, Cirkin Polje is missing,
15 and those areas which were predominantly Serb territories. Or, rather,
16 they were not Serb territories, but those were areas predominantly
17 inhabited by the Serb population. I apologise. The map is not complete.
18 It doesn't depict all the local communes in the area.
19 Q. That's accepted, sir.
20 Could you perhaps mark on the map with an X the Serb areas and --
21 just -- I appreciate this will not be exact -- the Serb areas --
22 A. [Previous translation continues] ... this map.
23 Q. Yes, on this map. That are not listed on that map?
24 A. Everything above the railroad and the main road, the area above
25 that, and some of the other local communes in --
1 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter missed the last word.
2 MS. PIDWELL:
3 Q. Could you repeat, the local communes in ...
4 A. Local communes. Suburban local communes, suburban.
5 Q. Would you accept, sir, that the Serb communes that you were
6 referring to are predominantly north of Prijedor town above the railway
7 line, on the one hand?
8 A. As far as Prijedor is concerned, that would be the case, but we
9 have Omarska here and Miska Glava, you understand, don't you?
10 Q. Yes. So you have -- on the one hand, north of the Prijedor town
11 above the railway line. Additionally, you have Miska Glava?
12 A. Omarska.
13 Q. And finally from Omarska, the area around Omarska and west of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Up to --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Just south of Trnopolje?
19 A. Let me just tell you this to make understand. All the places
20 here, all the local communes here, save for Miska Glava and Omarska,
21 predominantly inhabited by Muslims or exclusively by Muslims. Berzicovi
22 [phoen] is mixed. Barska [phoen], 90 per cent Muslims. Kozarusa,
23 Brdjani, Kamicani, Kevljani, Trnopolje, there were some Ukraines [as
24 interpreted] in there and some Serbs, but I'm talking about predominant
25 populations, Arasici [phoen], and so on and so forth, and those are
1 mostly local communes which were predominantly inhabited by Muslims, save
2 for Kranska Glava [phoen] and the local commune of Brezicani and Omarska,
3 of course.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has
6 almost foreseen my objection or, rather, intervention. I wanted to ask
7 my learned friend to ask the witness whether all the local communes are
8 depicted in the map or not. I believe that he has already partially
9 answered that but maybe he should be given an opportunity to extend his
10 answer. He already started answering.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to start saying
12 something now, was that a question for me?
13 JUDGE HALL
14 intervention, may wish to pose another question to you.
15 MS. PIDWELL: There is one easier way of doing this, Your Honour.
16 We have another map. It's not in my binder. I'm in your hands if you
17 want to permit me to use it, but it may expedite this process.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I be of assistance, please?
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HALL
21 suggestion, to use the other map which we assume is more detailed and
22 have him mark all the other areas and then the marked map could be
23 tendered as an exhibit.
24 MS. PIDWELL: It's part of the binder that Your Honours received
25 at the outset of the trial, one of the composition maps to Prijedor.
1 It's got all of the towns marked on it, and I'll simply ask him to
2 confirm whether it's correct or not.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MS. PIDWELL: So it's P10 -- sorry, oh, 65 ter 10137.6.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MS. PIDWELL: It's map 6 for Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MS. PIDWELL: Sometimes paper is a little bit quicker.
9 Q. Sir, you will see on your screen another map of the municipality
10 of Prijedor, and there are additional towns marked on there. They're
11 colour-coded. And I'd simply ask you to look at the towns which are
12 marked in blue and confirm for me whether you agree that they were
13 predominantly Serb villages?
14 A. Yes, precisely.
15 Q. And if we do the same exercise with the villages marked in red,
16 are they predominantly -- would you agree that they were predominantly
17 Croatian villages?
18 A. Correct. Yes.
19 Q. And, finally, with the green villages marked on there, would you
20 agree that they were predominantly Muslim villages?
21 A. Again, correct. Somebody did a -- a very good job.
22 Q. And, sir, going back to the issue that we were discussing with
23 the document from the Executive Board, which areas on this map would
24 become part of the Serbian municipality?
25 A. Serbian settlements with a majority Serbian population. Gradina,
1 Omarska, Lamovita, Petrova Gora, Mrakovica, Busnovi, Miska Glava, the
2 areas in the town, predominantly inhabited by the Serbs, and so on and so
3 forth, and later on after the takeover of power that will materialise.
4 Q. So clear that the town of Kozarac
5 within this -- the Serb municipal area, or the proposed Serb municipal
7 A. It's a Muslim area, is it not, Kozarac was -- 99 -- or 98
8 per cent Muslims, Brdjani, Babici, there were a few Serbs in Babici,
9 however but not that many.
10 MS. PIDWELL: I don't know if Your Honours want to formally
11 tender that. He hasn't marked it but he hasn't confirmed it is correct.
12 And --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I apologise. I would
14 like to say that Mrakovica -- there is nobody living in Mrakovica and
15 it's here. Mrakovica is a memorial site from the Second World War and
16 nobody is living there. Dera, on the other hand, is settled. Mrakovica
17 is just hotels, a few ski slopes, and the rest is all correct.
18 MS. PIDWELL:
19 Q. Thank you sir.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MS. PIDWELL: Well, it's unclear to me, Your Honours. It is on
22 our 65 ter list and it is part of the maps, and so forth, that were
23 handed to Your Honours at the beginning of trial. I don't think it is
24 formally an exhibit yet, so I guess --
25 JUDGE HALL
1 the map book had been prepared that it would, at some point, be exhibited
2 in its entirety but my recollection is that pieces of it have migrated
3 into the trial as separate exhibits, so consistent with that, I suppose,
4 we would -- we would exhibit this page.
5 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1614, Your Honours.
7 MS. PIDWELL: And I'd like to tender at this stage the previous
8 document, which was the direction from the Executive Board which he said
9 he received and wrote on the top, which was --
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MS. PIDWELL: -- 65 ter 48.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1615, Your Honours.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Could I have 65 ter 408, please, on the screen.
15 Q. Sir, you'll see come up on your screen some minutes of the
16 Municipal Board of the SDS
17 Prijedor 2 local commune room with you presiding. Do you see that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And directly under the agenda, there is a report that you -- you
20 reported on the situation in the municipality. Do you see that?
21 A. I see that.
22 Q. What was the situation in the municipality at that time?
23 A. These are talks relating to the division of power that I talked
24 about, that an agreement was not possible to be reached on, so the
25 situation was a status quo.
1 Q. This is the situation that hadn't -- that had been in place for a
2 series of months this difficulty --
3 A. For eight months, yes. Yes. And I also tried, I appointed
4 myself as the president of the commission for negotiations and we tried
5 to divide 50 per cent of the functions. We agreed to continue the
6 following day, but then the SDA in Prijedor did not allow their part of
7 the commission to continue working, so we never finished the job. And I
8 said why I appointed myself at the head of the commission, to gain proper
9 insight into the blocking or not blocking the work of the assembly.
10 Q. Now we have got a number of other participants in this meeting,
11 including Simo Drljaca. Do you see that?
12 A. I do, yes.
13 Q. And that most of the contributions to the discussion were
14 concerned about security matters. What were the security matters that
15 were being discussed at this meeting?
16 A. As for security in the Prijedor municipality and the obligations
17 of the Serbian Democratic Party, besides the universal fight to preserve
18 some healthy relations, and you could see through all the documents and
19 all the addresses that the main objective was to protect the Serbian
20 people, in the sense that tragedies from the past would not be repeated.
21 So all the philosophy and the entire police was based on them not again
22 them experiencing the tragedies that they had experienced earlier. So
23 you can see in all the documents that the activities were guided along
24 this line. That was the main idea behind the activities. I also
25 explained about the fears and why we are there in my conversation with
1 you so that things don't look as if this was just a matter of somebody
2 doing something -- wanting to do something and then doing something on
3 their own accord, taking measures of their own accord. This was in this
4 context -- there was a danger because the assembly was blocked.
5 Everything was at a standstill. People were tense. Not only the Serbs,
6 but Muslims also, Croats. Everybody wanted to move forward, of course,
7 except those who were more extreme. But everybody wanted for things to
8 move along. They wanted for things to start function.
9 Q. Sir, you referred to the -- the fears that were behind these
10 discussions, and if you could, briefly, elaborate on that for the benefit
11 of the Judges, within this context, please.
12 A. I don't know in which sense. Which part are you interested in?
13 Can you please tell me?
14 Q. Well, you've talked about the security concerns of the Serbian
15 people at this time and that there were fears and so wanted it understood
16 that the - let me get this right - that it didn't look like it was just a
17 matter of something happening of its own accord, measures of their own
19 Can you just please explain briefly the -- your background
20 thought to this?
21 A. I'm talking about the policy of the party here and documents to
22 which we are referring, and I said that can you see this main lining of
23 activity that the main objective was the protection of the Serbian people
24 so that the tragedies that it experienced previously are not repeated.
25 Especially in the area of Prijedor and Kozarac which went through a major
1 tragedy during World War II and these wounds have just healed. New
2 generations came, new relations were established, and then suddenly we
3 were go into this situation where people are finding it hard to find
4 their way around. This is what I was talking about. And if you look
5 into that, you will see that everybody was surprised by that within
6 relationships that have been re-established as normal. But these were
7 fears, not only among the Serb people but among other people as well.
8 I'm talking about the Serb people here and the reason why these fears
9 existed, and the main objective was to prevent the tragedy from occurring
10 again. We kept repeating for 100 times on the radio and everywhere,
11 please, tell us one reason why there should be a confrontation in our
12 area. There was no reason at all. So we kept repeating that over and
13 over again, because of fears, not because of some particular policy.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Now going back to the document, this is -- and
15 provide some context. This is a week before the takeover of the Prijedor
16 municipality. There's a decision listed at number 4 to convene a meeting
17 of the SDS Municipality
19 A. I do, yes. Yes, item 4. 1800 hours.
20 Q. Why was there --
21 A. [Indiscernible] Zeljaja, and police representatives, deputy head
22 of the garrison.
23 Q. Why was it necessary for the police and army representatives to
24 be at that meeting?
25 A. For the reasons that we have just talked about, including the
1 ones that I just referred to later. We will see that in this
2 paragraph 2, we sought to be protected from any conflict that could
3 possibly break out and we asked the JNA to do this, the official army.
4 That is why we asked for Zeljaja to be present from the garrison, as a
5 representative of the military, and also representatives of the police.
6 They were the only ones who could protect us from those who were having
7 weapons. You couldn't have people without weapons with their bare hands
8 protect themselves. That's why their presence was required and then in
9 the second paragraph, it is already -- says Zeljaja, as personification
10 of the JNA, does not declare that the JNA is going to protect the Serbs.
11 The SDS
12 their weapons and to form the Serbian army that would protect the Serbian
13 people in that area.
14 I think that this is clearly stated.
15 Q. And the reference to the police --
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, just a small
17 intervention to the transcript. I'm not going to suggest anything. But
18 the witness said, at that point in time, he said what the status of the
19 JNA was. I would like to ask him to repeat that answer of his because
20 that part of his answer is not in the transcript.
21 MS. PIDWELL:
22 Q. Sir, did you, in your previous answer, say or mention what the
23 status of the JNA was?
24 A. I didn't mention status. All I said that was Zeljaja was the
25 personification of the Yugoslav People's Army. He was the deputy of the
1 garrison commander, and we asked them for protection because all ethnic
2 groups are part of the JNA, except for those who refused to respond to
3 the call-up. So we requested them to respond to a call for protection of
4 the Serbian people and if they would not do that then the Serbian
5 Democratic Party would call up on all the Serbs who were in the JNA to
6 step out with their weapons in order for them to be able to protect the
7 Serbian people because all of them were children from that area.
8 Actually, we wanted them to protect their children, to protect their
10 Yes, that was the context.
11 Q. Thank you. The -- just to clarify, what was the ethnicity of
13 A. Serb.
14 Q. And the police representatives that you asked to be present at
15 the meeting two days later, who were you referring to?
16 A. I was referring to Simo Drljaca and, of course, these commanders
17 of police stations who were active. So the leadership, yes. And Simo,
18 here. Because of his post. Because I said when we were talking about
19 the earlier document that he was the chief of the MUP Prijedor.
20 Q. At the time of the takeover, a week later, who was the chief of
21 the MUP Prijedor? Just before the takeover.
22 A. Before the takeover, it was a Muslim, an engineer from Celpak. I
23 think that he was from Celpak, Telundzic. I don't know his first name.
24 I forgot.
25 Q. So at this point in time, namely the 23rd of April, the head of
1 the SJB Prijedor was not Drljaca, was it? It was Telundzic.
2 A. No. Telundzic, yes. That's correct.
3 Q. Was Telundzic invited to this meeting on the 25th of April?
4 A. No. Because it was a matter of the Serbs, of protecting the
5 Serbs. We call the representatives of the JNA and said if they were not
6 willing to protect us, we would call the Serbian soldiers to come and
7 take their weapons and form their units in order to protect the Serbian
8 people. That's why he wasn't invited.
9 Q. And finally with this document, sir, number 5, there's a
10 conclusion or a decision, sorry, to immediately start working on the
11 takeover. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And what did that mean?
14 A. Well, you know what that meant. It meant that certain
15 preparations had to be made because the blockade was still ongoing in
16 order to take over power. Something had to happen there. We had to let
17 the water out, conditionally speaking. In that sense, that is what it
18 means. There were armed soldiers in the JNA. If the JNA was not willing
19 to do it, then we would take the Serb soldiers, and then in the police,
20 we would have the policemen and the reserve forces, so from both sources
21 we had armed people, and in that way we would protect the Serbian people.
22 So it was in that sense, and that's what actually was -- that's actually
23 what happened later.
24 Q. Thank you, sir.
25 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to tender that document now. And I think
1 that is an appropriate time, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1616, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 adjournment for the day. We will resume in this courtroom, according to
6 the last version of the calender I've seen. We're in this courtroom,
7 mornings, for the entirety of next week.
8 So I trust that everyone has a safe weekend.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of October,
12 2010, at 9.00 a.m.