1 Monday, 4 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances today, please.
12 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Tom Hannis, Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
16 Slobodan Cvijetic and Deirdre Montgomery for the Stanisic Defence
18 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and
20 Daniella Sinobad appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
22 May we have the witness back to the stand, if there is nothing
23 that we need divert our attention to.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Miskovic, good morning to you. I remind you,
1 sir, that you're still on your oath.
2 Yes, Ms. Pidwell.
3 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 WITNESS: SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Ms. Pidwell: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, sir.
8 A. It doesn't work.
9 Q. Good morning, sir.
10 A. [In English] Morning.
11 Q. Is it working now?
12 A. [Interpretation] It's working.
13 Q. Sir, on Friday, we -- we ended by looking at a document which
14 were the minutes of the Municipal Board meeting which was held on the
15 23rd of April, 1992. Do you recall that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And there was a reference in that document to a meeting which was
18 scheduled to take place two days later at Cirkin Polje.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you attend that meeting at Cirkin Polje on Saturday,
21 the 25th of April?
22 A. I did. I did.
23 Q. Who was present at that meeting?
24 A. Well, according to the agenda, there was the commander of the TO,
25 Kuruzovic; and the chief of the MUP, Simo Drljaca; as well as the
1 representatives of the Serb authorities of the Serbian municipality of
2 the Prijedor, that is, the -- the highest ranking people, Mico Kovacevic,
3 Slavisa Dakic, and others.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Mico Stakic.
5 MS. PIDWELL:
6 Q. And do you recall the decisions that were made at that meeting?
7 A. I remember. Since there was the danger of continued
8 confrontation in Prijedor municipality, in order to prevent the
9 conflicts, it was decided to seize power. And it was agreed that this
10 would take place at 4.00 a.m., and it was done that way, indeed.
11 Q. And how was it decided on which day this takeover would take
13 A. I spoke about that earlier. On that day, the 29th, I was at a
14 meeting in Prijedor at the MUP. The representatives of the SDA were
15 there, the political representatives, and the representatives of the
16 authorities. Mujadzic and the president of the municipality, whose name
17 I always forget. And there was the chief of the MUP, Telundzic. And it
18 was a friendly conversation until the communications clerk brought a
19 dispatch and read it out to all of us and the dispatch said that the
20 Muslim forces were attacking barracks, intercepting our armoured
21 vehicles. And then among the police officers present at the meeting,
22 there was a commotion, but we were able to calm them.
23 After the meeting, I was invited to come to the barracks, and I
24 did. Everybody was sitting there, Kuruzovic and ... Kuruzovic, the
25 TO commander; then Simo, the chief of the MUP; and Jankovic.
1 Furthermore, Cadzo; Arsic, the barracks commander of the
2 43rd Brigade; and his deputy, Beljaja; as well as Radovan Arsic --
3 Arsic's deputy were already there. As far as I remember, these were the
4 people who were already there when I arrived.
5 The decision was taken then to take over power with regard to the
6 events mentioned in the dispatch because they were what prompted us to do
7 so. And it was agreed to do it on the same evening. That was Arsic's
8 proposal. But I was afraid that there could be a conflict, because it
9 was a workday, and I was afraid that things might take a bad turn. So my
10 idea was to do it on Saturday, and as they said to me, Simo -- but from
11 whom do you take power on Saturday, because it isn't a working day?
12 So the final decision was to do it in the evening, that is, the
13 night from the 29th through the 30th, and it was done that way.
14 Q. Going back, sir, to the meeting that was held on the
15 25th of April, was a decision made at that meeting as to when the
16 takeover would take place?
17 A. No. That decision wasn't taken then. If you followed the
18 development of events, in all documents and all contacts and
19 conversations there was always the language, if the Serb People in
20 Prijedor municipality should be threatened, then there would be takeover
21 of power, according to Variant B. You can find that in the text,
22 Variant B.
23 And if you allow, and if it's of interest, let me explain that
24 the fear among the Serb People was not irrational. So I could give you a
25 historic overview of events that triggered this apprehension and fear.
1 Q. Well, sir, we don't have the benefit of that much time.
2 Let me --
3 A. It was just a question.
4 Q. Let me take you back. Were there any additional meetings between
5 the 25th of April and the 29th of April, when you attended this meeting
6 at the MUP building in Prijedor?
7 A. Well, from today's vantage point, after 20 years, I couldn't be
8 certain about either.
9 I don't remember that, but I remember that meeting, so if you
10 could remind me, I will -- you'll probably jog my memory.
11 Q. When you attended the meeting at the MUP building, what was the
12 purpose of the meeting?
13 A. I can't really remember what the purpose of the meeting was
14 because I arrived late. Everybody was already there. Police officers
15 and these representatives and everybody. Only later did my guys from the
16 municipality tell me to go to that meeting, and they had gone to that
17 other meeting which -- of which I wasn't aware then. So I don't know
18 what the purpose of the meeting was.
19 Q. Who chaired the meeting at the MUP building?
20 A. The chief did, Telundzic.
21 Q. And who was there representing the SDA?
22 A. Mirza Mujadzic did, and the president of the Municipal Assembly
23 who was elected on behalf of the SDA. I always forget his name.
24 Q. And how were you informed about the subsequent meeting held by
25 the Serb municipal leaders?
1 A. When I came back from the meeting, they called me up and told me
2 to go to the barracks, which I did. And there, everybody was already
3 there, as I have already explained.
4 Q. And you told us who was present at this -- the second meeting,
5 and you mentioned Simo. Who were you referring to when you used that --
6 A. Yes, I did. Simo Drljaca. Because that earlier meeting, I
7 remember, there was the Committee for Internal Organisation when he was
8 appointed to be chief of the MUP.
9 Q. And where did the second meeting take place exactly?
10 A. You mean with the representatives of the Serb authorities to
11 which I came late? Do you mean that one?
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes.
13 A. In the JNA barracks in Prijedor. At Urije.
14 Q. And you've told us that a decision was made there and then to
15 take over the municipality that evening. Were you -- what arrangements
16 were --
17 A. Yes, the following day. That is, the following night.
18 Q. What actual arrangements were decided upon then to take over the
20 A. Nothing special was decided upon. The TO, which was in existence
21 already, and the police, the Serb police, were supposed to prepare the
22 manpower to perform the takeover, to carry out -- to -- and the
23 institutions should be prepared, and there should be a certain number of
24 people available.
25 Q. Did you decide to meet later on that evening?
1 A. Yes, at 2.00 a.m. We -- we were supposed to consider -- or to
2 assess whether everything was well-organised and whether we should carry
3 out the operation. So we were supposed to check whether everything was
4 we well-prepared and likely to succeed.
5 Q. And did you, in fact, meet again at 2.00 a.m.?
6 A. Yes, we did.
7 Q. Where did that meeting take place?
8 A. It took place at Cirkin Polje on the premises of the local
10 Kuruzovic, the commander of the TO, reported to us that
11 everything that was functioning well and that there shouldn't be any
12 problems. Simo reported in respect of the police that everything was
13 well-organised and that there shouldn't be any problems. And when all
14 that was said, the decision was taken that the takeover of power should
15 be carried out at 4.00 a.m.
16 Q. So what happened between 2.00 a.m. and 4.00 a.m. on this night?
17 A. Yes. Well, from 4.00 a.m. till 6.00 a.m., all institutions in
18 the cities were taken over by these formations; that is, the MUP, the
19 municipality, the SDK, the post-office, and so on. And I must point out
20 that there were no problems, no excessive events, and nobody got as much
21 as scratched in the operation, and -- which was a big relief for all of
23 Q. Sir, before -- before the actual takeover took place at
24 4.00 a.m., was -- was there a gathering of -- of people, of army and
25 police, at any particular point?
1 A. I explained already that there was no rally at the staff. The
2 Serb police was there, and there was the TO commander; and the chief of
3 the police reported to us that they had mobilized the manpower and
4 prepared everything to carry out the operation. And once they had done
5 that, the decision was taken at 2.00 that the operation should be
6 launched at 4.00.
7 Q. During the -- this period of the takeover, where were you based?
8 A. I was on the premises of the local commune where the decision was
9 taken. I stayed there all the time on duty-service by the telephone,
10 because I had grown up there and my colleagues were involved and they
11 were all armed. But once I heard that everything had gone smoothly, I
12 really was relieved.
13 Q. So when you say you were on duty-service by the telephone, who
14 was reporting in to you at this time?
15 A. Well, I wasn't the operative officer. But I wanted to know. I
16 was nervous and apprehensive. That's why I sat by the telephone all the
17 time, to hear what -- what they had to say, if anybody would call. I was
18 especially interested in the police because of my colleagues. And those
19 who carried out the takeover of power were also my colleagues.
20 Q. And how did you hear that the takeover had been successful?
21 A. Well, reports were submitted. Kuruzovic and Simo Drljaca
22 informed everybody, and they reported on what they had done. They said
23 that they had problems with the guard at the SDK who was asleep. They
24 had trouble waking him. And that was the last facility that was taken
1 Q. I'd like you to have a look at a document, sir. It's 65 ter 411,
2 tab 19.
3 MS. PIDWELL: P652.
4 Q. You'll see, sir, this is a dispatch dated the 30th of April from
5 Simo Drljaca to the Banja Luka CSB. And it says:
6 "Based on your dispatch of the above number and date, please be
7 informed ... ten police stations and 1.587 policemen were mobilized."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that -- does that figure seem correct to you?
10 A. I believe it is correct. But that was a dispatch that was sent
11 through police channels. I wasn't familiar with it.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the volume in the witness's headphones
13 please be lowered.
14 THE WITNESS: It's too high.
15 MS. PIDWELL:
16 Q. Sir, do you remember giving an interview on the radio about the
17 takeover of the municipality in April 1995?
18 A. Yes, I do remember. There was an announcement. I spoke for the
19 radio on behalf of the people who were taking over the power.
20 MS. PIDWELL: Turn to 65 ter 587, please. It's tab 60.
21 Q. Do you recall listening to the audio version of this interview
22 last week?
23 A. Yes. And I also read this -- yes, these were my words, the words
24 I spoke on the Radio Prijedor broadcast.
25 Q. So you recognised your voice; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. And the context.
2 MS. PIDWELL: If we turn to the second page, please, in both
4 Q. At the end of your speech, sir, you'll see the reporter makes an
5 announcement that that was Mr. Simo Drljaca.
6 A. I can see that. That was a mistake.
7 Q. Was Mr. Simo Drljaca involved in this interview at all?
8 A. I think he was, but I really can't remember. I can't remember
9 Slobodan being there. But having read here that he was, I remember.
10 That was 20 years ago.
11 Q. In any event, the first speaker that we see on this transcript
12 was you?
13 A. Yes, that was me; that's right.
14 Q. And the next speaker, did you recognise the voice of
15 Slobodan Kuruzovic?
16 A. Yes -- yes, yes.
17 Q. And did you also recognise the voice of Mico Kovacevic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your account of the -- the takeover during that radio
20 broadcast, was that an accurate account?
21 A. Well, 99 per cent of it was accurate. One must take into account
22 that we were emotional at the time and the desire to show that the
23 operation was done well.
24 Am I too close? Okay.
25 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask for that transcript to be admitted and
1 marked, please.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1617, Your Honours.
4 MS. PIDWELL:
5 Q. After the takeover had occurred during the night, did you inform
6 anyone of the events and the outcome?
7 A. There was no one to inform. I didn't inform anyone. Well, at
8 least as far as I remember.
9 Q. And after the takeover, did you, in your capacity as SDS
10 president, visit the municipal buildings that day to see who was now in
11 power for yourself?
12 A. Well, you see, that evening when the decision was made to take
13 over power, another decision was reached, namely, that representatives of
14 Serbs that were in charge of certain positions within the Municipal
15 Assembly, Stakic was the president of the Assembly, the secretary, the
16 Executive Committee president, that they should show up at their work at
17 6.00 a.m. so that by 7.00 a.m. they would already be there. And the
18 entrance policeman, I think, was placed, who prevented the president of
19 the municipality to enter the building. And someone else, I think, some
20 other officials who were members of the SDA. Everyone else was at their
21 workplace, as usual.
22 Q. And do you recall how it was announced to the people of Prijedor
23 that the takeover had, in fact, taken place?
24 A. As I have mentioned a moment ago, before this interview and after
25 the takeover of power, an announcement was read over the radio to the
1 citizens with explanations of why the takeover had taken place, and that
2 the situation is calm, that there will be no repression or any problems,
3 that president of municipality and some officials were replaced, others
4 remained working. That was the gist of the announcement. It preceded
5 the interview for the radio. It was repeated on several occasions.
6 Q. And after the takeover, did the weekly meetings of the Municipal
7 Assembly continue?
8 A. Well, the authorities worked within the building of the Municipal
9 Assembly. According to Variant B, they started working independently.
10 The activities within the party were frozen, and the government
11 functioned normally. Of course, there were problems and fears, and
12 therefore there were regular meetings, contacts with the citizens, with
13 representatives of other ethnicities, and it went on for a month, until
14 the said events. Check-points were set up that were organised in 1991 so
15 that, for instance, somebody wouldn't go into areas where there were a
16 majority of the other ethnicity group and caused some excessive events,
17 but there were no problems in that period.
18 Q. Who manned these check-points?
19 A. The police. We had the police doing it, and they had their own
20 check-points in order to prevent somebody going to the other side and
21 causing some problems. That was the main reason for setting up the
22 check-points, to prevent some individuals or groups from doing something
23 unforeseeable. And we didn't have any problems, neither in the period
24 before the takeover, nor after it, all the way until this attack on
25 Prijedor and the said events that followed it.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Can we look at another document. It's 65 ter 413.
2 It's tab 21.
3 We might need the B/C/S a little larger, please.
4 Q. You'll see, sir, a document in front of you which is the minutes
5 of the 2nd Session of the National Defence Council of the Municipal
6 Assembly of Prijedor held on the --
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And you were present?
9 A. Yes. Yeah, I can see. I don't remember it, but I can see here
10 in the minutes that I was there.
11 Q. Firstly, could you explain to us who this body is, the
12 National Defence Council?
13 A. The National Defence Council, well, that was a type of
14 organisation that was taken over from the previous period, from the
15 period of socialist government. It was a provisional organ, and it was
16 tasked with helping the Municipal Assembly and the president of the
17 Assembly in issues related to security. This system existed in former
18 Yugoslavia, and we maintained it after the takeover. As you can see,
19 there was discussion about mobilization here. The decision was reached
20 first, and then there were discussions about how to implement them.
21 MS. PIDWELL: And if we can turn to the next page, please. I
22 think, actually, the B/C/S, if you can remain on the same page; and the
23 English, we turn to the next page.
24 Q. Under number 6, we see that a curfew was to be introduced.
25 A. Yes. Yes, that took place.
1 Q. And under number 7, we see that it states:
2 "All paramilitary units and individuals who possess weapons and
3 ammunition illegally are called upon to surrender them immediately, and
4 not later than 11 May ... to the public security station in Prijedor."
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I can -- I see that. I remember them, both of these.
7 Q. And why was it necessary to make a decision on the surrender of
8 weapons by the 11th of May?
9 A. First of all, in relation to the curfew, it was introduced to
10 make sure that in the night hours when it was dark, would not - and I
11 mean either an individual or a group - would cause some kind of problems
12 on any of the sides. That was the main motive for the curfew.
13 And this item about paramilitary units and individuals who
14 illegally possess weapons, they're being asked to surrendered them to the
15 legal authorities, the police. Again, for the same purpose: To make
16 sure that there will be no armed fighting or anything like that.
17 You have seen that throughout the period within the municipality
18 of Prijedor there were no paramilitary formations nor were there any
19 problematic events.
20 Q. Well, sir, if there were no paramilitary formations or
21 problematic events, why was it necessary to issue a direction to
22 surrender weapons at this time?
23 A. It is stated here. If there were any. If there are individuals
24 who are in possession of illegal arms. This is what is stated here.
25 They should hand them over. Those who had authorisation from the MUP to
1 possess arms, they didn't have to surrender their arms.
2 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to tender that document, those minutes, at
3 this stage, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1618, Your Honours.
6 MS. PIDWELL: If we can go to 65 ter 415, please. It's tab 24.
7 Q. You'll see on your screen, sir, we have some minutes of the
8 SDS Municipal Board on the 9th of May, 1992, with you presiding.
9 Do you recall this meeting?
10 A. Let me just read this.
11 Could you please enlarge it a little bit for me?
12 Q. There's a reference there, sir, under the number 2, afterwards it
13 goes on and says:
14 "Go on with the talks observing all the properties [sic], but
15 always keep in mind the final goal. The idea is to achieve everything
16 peacefully and without destruction."
17 What was it meant when it said "go on with the talks observing
18 all the properties [sic]"?
19 Sorry, "proprieties."
20 A. I don't know. Nothing special happened. I don't know what the
21 idea was. I cannot explain this.
22 MS. PIDWELL: If we can turn to the next page where Simo Drljaca
23 is reporting. Page 2 on each, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just find him. I can't find
25 him. Oh, yes, there he is.
1 MS. PIDWELL:
2 Q. And Mr. Drljaca is saying that there's a problem with the
3 protection of the facilities and "it's imperative that the TO take over
4 such details so that the police can go back to their duties."
5 A. Yes, yes. Well, that's logical. The question was who will be
6 providing security for the already-present facilities in order to avoid
7 any problems. And that was something that Territorial Defence and police
8 had to take care of. And Simo is here suggesting that TO should be doing
9 that because they have more manpower. It says here that they were afraid
10 of crime.
11 Q. And he goes on to discuss the negotiations with the Ljubija and
12 Kozarac stations and a deadline being extended.
13 What was that deadline for?
14 A. Well, you see, after the takeover in Prijedor, the police
15 stations in Ljubija and Kozarac were not taken over. They continued
16 functioning in their areas. And then there were talks between them for
17 the purpose of resubordinating them to the new-formed MUP Prijedor, under
18 the new circumstances, and that's the context of this conversation.
19 Q. So those -- those police stations and areas that they covered,
20 Ljubija and Kozarac, they were Muslim areas, weren't they?
21 A. Yes. Yes, yes. Croats were also in Ljubija. The majority of
22 Croats lived in the area of Ljubija.
23 Q. Why was it necessary to carry out full mobilisation of the TO and
24 the reserve police force within that context?
25 A. They had already been mobilized at the time of the takeover of
1 power, both the Territorial Defence and the police. This is just
2 continuing -- continuation of their functioning. There were no new
3 mobilisations of the Territorial Defence and the police. They were
4 mobilized before the takeover of power, and then they continued
5 functioning like that.
6 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask that that document be admitted and marked.
7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1619, Your Honours.
9 MS. PIDWELL:
10 Q. Now, sir, during the month of May, were you involved in
11 negotiations which took place with the inhabitants of Kozarac?
12 A. In that one-month period, until the attack of Muslim forces
13 against Prijedor, many talks were held with representatives of Kozarac
14 and other local communes, individuals, and groups, with the goal of
15 finding the best solution that would exclude any problems taking place in
16 the municipality of Prijedor. One can see that in every document. One
17 can see that through everything conversation.
18 Q. Besides you, who else was involved in these negotiations?
19 A. Well, me, Stakic, Drljaca, Mico, one of us or several of us
20 together. Kuruzovic was also involved a lot.
21 Q. And who were you negotiating with?
22 A. Savunovic [phoen] also. All the people from the top levels of
23 government were involved in the talks, either individually or in groups
24 of two, three. It depends.
25 Q. And from the -- from the people of Kozarac, who were you
1 negotiating with?
2 A. They had a delegation. As far as I remember, it was a math
3 teacher, Mujkanovic I think his name was. I know where his house was in
4 Krkici [phoen]. And there was a group of people with him. They came for
5 the talks on that occasion.
6 In the period prior to the takeover, we were arranging the
7 arrival of me and Mujadzic to Kozarac, and it almost took place; however,
8 it didn't. Later on I was told by some friends of mine from Kozarac that
9 this arrival of ours was postponed because there was a chance that an
10 extremist group would make an attempt on our lives. But that is only
11 something I heard after the take over of power. Now whether that's true
12 or not, I don't know, but that's whey heard from the people of Kozarac.
13 Q. And could you briefly summarize for the Trial Chamber what it was
14 exactly that you were negotiating?
15 A. The basic negotiations were about security, on one hand; and on
16 the other hand, the issue of changing of emblems on people's uniforms.
17 The flags should have been placed. And the third thing was disarmament.
18 Those were the three topics of the agenda, these three segments.
19 Q. And at some point was a deadline imposed for the people of
20 Kozarac to surrender their weapons?
21 A. Let me tell you. I know that, like this: I did not personally
22 set any deadlines on behalf of the party. It was the government, the
23 police, and the army who were in charge of that. Disarmament is part of
24 their domain. The government functioned, and they took over all the
25 tasks of the government, as we have seen in the documents.
1 Q. Do you recall why it was that these negotiations came to an end?
2 A. What I know is that the negotiations just failed to produce a
3 final resolution of issues related to these three segments, and I think
4 that's why the negotiations didn't come through.
5 Q. And after the negotiations failed, what action was taken against
7 A. I cannot remember. If you could remind me ...
8 Q. Did you -- were you aware that the town of Kozarac was shelled?
9 A. Well, I cannot remember. I assume -- I do know that it was
10 shelled, but I think that took place only after the attack on Prijedor,
11 not in this 30-day period between the 30th of April and the 30th of May.
12 I don't think it took place then - the shelling, I mean - while the
13 negotiations were going on, because part of the negotiation was a
14 decision, joint decision, whereby the army was put in charge of security
15 on the roads. That was a joint position taken by all the parties.
16 Q. Did you actually go into -- or into the town of Kozarac during
17 the month of May?
18 A. No. No, no, I wasn't there.
19 Q. Where did these negotiations take place?
20 A. At the premises of Prijedor municipality.
21 Q. And do you recall the last date of the negotiations or when they
22 failed --
23 A. As far as I remember, at least. No, that, I don't remember.
24 That was a long time ago, 20 years ago.
25 Q. When did you go back to Kozarac?
1 A. For the first time? For the first time, it was after the
2 shelling. I think I reached Dera. And not again for a long time.
3 Q. And this was -- this was a town that you knew well. What you did
4 see when you arrived there, after the shelling?
5 A. Well, I saw some houses and buildings destroyed by the shelling.
6 Q. And were the people of Kozarac going about their daily business?
7 A. Well, I couldn't see that because I only passed through the main
8 street. I think it was called Mladen Stojanovic Street. That's the only
9 part of the town that I saw. Whether people went about their daily
10 business elsewhere, I don't know. I didn't go anywhere else.
11 Q. I want you to have a look at the document, sir, which is
12 65 ter 422.
13 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry, just bear with me. No, 420.
14 Q. These are some minutes of another National Defence Council
15 meeting, this time on the 15th of May, with you being present and
16 Mr. -- Dr. Stakic presiding.
17 A. I can see that.
18 MS. PIDWELL: And if we turn to the next page, please, on both
20 Q. Just before the heading "Conclusions," you'll see this. It
21 states there, simply: "Disarmament of Paramilitary Formations" as a
22 topic. And then the persons who participated in the discussion about
23 that: Drljaca, Zeljaja, a number of other people.
24 Do you see that?
25 A. You mean item 4, disarming paramilitary formations, yes, I can
1 see that. Simo Drljaca, Radmilo Zeljaja, and others took part in the
2 discussion. Conclusions were adopted. All these are members of the
3 government. Zeljaja represented the garrison. There was somebody from
4 the National Defence. Bosko, Mandic, and Ranko Travar were members of
5 the defence council. The entire -- the entire set.
6 Q. Sir, you've told us previously that there were no paramilitary
7 formations -- no Serb paramilitary formations in the municipality at this
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So what did this relate -- what did this relate to, then?
11 A. Most probably it related to the paramilitary units on the Muslim
12 and Croat side.
13 MS. PIDWELL: I ask that that document be admitted and marked.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1620, Your Honours.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You will remember that ...
17 MS. PIDWELL: Could we now have 65 ter 422 on the screen, please.
18 Q. Here we have, sir, some minutes of the Municipal Board of the SDS
19 meeting held on the 18th of May, with you opening and chairing the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And if we go down to the bottom of the page, we'll see --
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 Q. -- some conclusions that were adopted, after some discussion.
25 And one of them was:
1 "Disarm paramilitary units and citizens owning [sic] weapons by
2 peaceful means until the end of May; after that time, force will be used
3 to enforce the disarmament."
4 Do you see that?
5 A. I can see that. Item 2, to disarm paramilitary units and
6 citizens who are in possession of weapons by peaceful means; later on,
7 force will be used. Yes, I can see that.
8 Q. And are you aware that all the paramilitary units and citizens
9 owning weapons were in fact disarmed, or did it come to the position
10 where force was used?
11 A. Well, when we're talking about paramilitary units, I'd like to
12 note - and we have already discussed this before the beginning of
13 trial - I had heard that in the area of Carakovo, which is a Muslim local
14 Muslim commune, there was a paramilitary unit of Green Berets headed by
15 Slavko Ecimovic. I was surprised to hear that because I knew the man and
16 I could never picture him in that role. And I asked Dr. Sadikovic, who
17 knew Ecimovic, to go and ask him to come for talks. And he, indeed, did
18 that and came back to me and said, Simo, there's nothing doing. He has
19 ammunition belts across his chest and automatic rifle and he's playing
21 I was very surprised to hear that because the man was an
22 acquaintance of mine; I knew him; he was a businessman; he liked good
23 living; and I was really shocked by the news of his transformation. And
24 that means, any way, that there were paramilitary units on the other side
25 that needed to be disarmed.
1 And later on, in Prijedor, this Slavko showed up with his unit.
2 And you can see that all that's discussed here was indeed justified.
3 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to admit that document at this stage,
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1621, Your Honours.
7 MS. PIDWELL:
8 Q. Sir, I want to now ask you some questions about your visit to the
9 detention facility at Omarska.
10 A. All right.
11 Q. When were you first told that a delegation was coming from
12 Banja Luka to visit this detention facility?
13 A. I was never told about that, and I didn't know about it. I just
14 saw by chance on the pavement outside the municipal building when this
15 delegation came in a motorcade, and I think Mico Stakic was there, and
16 Drljaca went to accompany them, and they said to me, Come along. And
17 that's how I came to go to Omarska with them. I had no prior information
18 this visit would take place.
19 I, as the president of the party, did not take part in the
20 government after the takeover. Party functions were frozen. But I went
21 everywhere, I dropped by the town hall, the municipal building, other
22 institutions. I just -- I was just passing time.
23 Q. So who was part of the delegation? You've said Stakic and
24 Drljaca accompanied them, but who was it that came from Banja Luka?
25 A. Mico was there too, not only Drljaca. I don't know who came from
1 Banja Luka. I only saw them when they came out of the cars in Omarska.
2 There was president of the municipal, Radic; I believe there was
3 Vojo Kupresanin, Stojan Zupljanin; I believe also Radoslav Brdjanin.
4 That is it. I may be mistaken about one of them. Maybe not all of these
5 were present. Maybe I omitted someone. But that's all I can tell you.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just to clarify, perhaps the
7 witness should be asked: When he says Mico, whom does he mean?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mico Kovacevic - I'm sorry I'm
9 using his first name; we were on very good terms; we were next
10 door neighbours living on the same street - when I say Mico, I mean
11 Mico Kovacevic. I know it's very important for the Court to use the
12 first and last name.
13 MS. PIDWELL:
14 Q. Right. So we -- you joined -- you joined this delegation, and --
15 A. [No interpretation]
16 Q. -- from Prijedor town hall or the municipal building --
17 A. That's correct. No, in fact, they were already on the way. They
18 did not get out of the car to go into the municipal building. They were
19 on the road already. And these two were on the side of the road. Maybe
20 they had already arranged it by telephone.
21 Q. So you went into a vehicle with -- well, with who?
22 A. I don't know. With Mico and Stakic and Simo. I think even that
23 there was -- that was a police vehicle, but I'm not sure. I would not
24 like to make a mistake here. Anyway, I went there.
25 Q. And did they tell you what the purpose of the visit was?
1 A. Not really. We just got into the car and went. They said, We're
2 going to Omarska, the investigating centre -- the investigation centre.
3 That's what they told me.
4 Q. And were you aware at this point in time that Omarska was being
5 used for what you call an investigation centre?
6 A. Well, that was the information I had; namely, that a rather large
7 number of persons were held in Omarska, being subjected to operative
8 investigation conducted by public and state security personnel. And as a
9 professional, following that logic, I believed, and I still believe, that
10 it was an investigation centre where people were supposed to be
11 investigated to establish their possible criminal liability, and those
12 who were not charged with anything were supposed to be released. I'm
13 speaking as a professional.
14 Q. Were you involved in the decision to use the premises of Omarska
15 as an investigation centre?
16 A. No, no. I don't even know when that decision was made.
17 Q. When you arrived at Omarska with this delegation, what did you
19 A. Well, we came in -- this was the door, and then we passed by one
20 building, and then stopped within the compound, facing another building.
21 In the first building outside which we stopped, there is a staircase
22 leading upstairs. We got out there, climbed the steps, and entered the
23 conference hall on the first floor. In the building next to us that was
24 fenced in - the fence was there even before the war, before the
25 takeover - there were a number of citizens of Prijedor, rather a large
1 number of citizens, whom I knew. But since they had not shaven for a
2 long time, I couldn't recognise them. But they certainly could recognise
3 me, so I was rather embarrassed. I kept my head down. And keeping my
4 head down, I went into the building.
5 Q. And besides being unshaven, what was the -- what did the
6 detainees generally look like, in terms of their state of health and
8 A. Well, you know what? You -- you don't need explaining. Of
9 course, if they didn't shave for a long time, they had long beards. If
10 they hadn't changed clothes for a long time and hadn't washed them, you
11 know what it's like. I'm here only for a couple of days and I still had
12 to have my shirts washed. And they were all crumpled because they slept
13 in the same clothes, they couldn't hang them properly for the night.
14 That's whey meant.
15 About the health, I don't know who was in what state of health
16 and who had what kind of health problems, whether those problems, if any
17 occurred there or whether they came with these same problems. The
18 physicians who examined them know that.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I apologise
20 because I think that there is one part of his response, on the
21 page 25 line 2 or 3, missing. It was related to the -- some video
22 recordings. He mentioned that. It's not ...
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness did
24 say - he's speaking very fast: I was keeping my head down coming into
25 the building, and that is how you see me on that video footage.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.
2 Q. You've told us that you saw a large number of people at Omarska
3 on this day and that you knew a lot of them. What was their ethnicity?
4 A. Muslims and Croats, both. Except there were more Muslims,
5 because, generally, there is a larger percentage of Muslims in the
6 municipality of Prijedor.
7 Q. And what -- what took place at the -- at the meeting room on the
8 first floor? You've told us you went in, you walked upstairs, and went
9 into a meeting room. What took place there?
10 A. At that meeting, somebody representing this facility reported on
11 the situation within the facility, on the steps and measures they had
12 taken, on their intention to file charges possibly against individuals.
13 That's --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who was that -- sorry, who
15 was that person?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know the name. But you can probably see
17 it on that video footage. It must have been the director of that
18 investigation centre. The warden. The film shows the entire course of
19 that visit.
20 Q. Yes, we'll have a look at that in a minute.
21 How long did this -- did this meeting take place?
22 A. As best as I can remember, not more than an hour, an hour and a
23 half, perhaps. Perhaps I could have given you a better answer in
24 1991 or 1992.
25 Q. Was everyone who had arrived with you, in terms of the
1 delegation, present at this meeting that took place?
2 A. Yes. We were all there. We came into the room together.
3 Q. And were questions asked of the -- the person who was convening
4 this meeting?
5 A. I couldn't tell you that. Not after all this time. I don't
6 remember. I think it was just the briefing by that warden. Or perhaps
7 there were some questions asked, but I really can't remember. Possibly.
8 Possibly, but I'm not sure.
9 Q. And, sir, were you surprised at all by what you saw there on that
11 A. Well, I don't know in what sense you mean. "Surprised." I was
12 taken aback by the appearance of the people I saw there, because I had
13 seen them before looking differently. That's one thing. And another
14 thing is that I was unable to recognise them when they looked like that.
15 And I have already answered to you concerning my professional
16 point of view on -- on that investigation centre. It all looked rather
17 legitimate and legal, the way it was done.
18 Q. And after that meeting, did you go directly back to the vehicles,
19 or did you have a walk around the other buildings at Omarska?
20 A. We got back into the vehicles immediately. We did not even tour
21 that building. It was just next to the building which we entered. The
22 two buildings were not far apart, 10 metres perhaps. And all these
23 people were standing up as we were passing.
24 Q. Did you ask to -- to talk to any of the people who were being
25 detained there?
1 A. No. It was a police investigation. I did not interfere.
2 Q. Do you recall when this visit took place?
3 A. I can't remember that either. It was a long time ago.
4 MS. PIDWELL: Can we have a look at a document, please. It's
5 65 ter 1566.
6 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, we're just near the break. We may as
7 well wait until we return.
8 So we return in 20 minutes.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Pidwell, you were about to show a document
13 to the witness.
14 MS. PIDWELL:
15 Q. Sir, while that document is being brought up on the screen, just
16 to clarify, did you go to Omarska at any other time during the summer of
17 1992 or just on one occasion?
18 A. That was the one and only time. I never went there either before
19 or afterward.
20 Q. Are you familiar with this newspaper that you see on your screen?
21 A. This is a local paper, "Kozarski Vjesnik."
22 Q. And do you see the -- the heading on the left -- the main heading
23 on the left-hand side of your screen, which says new authorities --
24 sorry, which says: "Krajina representatives in Prijedor"?
25 A. Yes. There's a heading above that which reads: "Visits." But
1 the main heading is "Krajina representatives in Prijedor."
2 MS. PIDWELL: And perhaps if we could make a little bit -- yes,
3 that portion, exactly, a little bit larger for the witness.
4 And we see that this newspaper is reporting on a visit from
5 representatives from the Autonomous Region of Krajina - Brdjanin, Vukic,
6 Zupljanin, Radic - saying they had visited Prijedor on Wednesday.
7 Do you recall whether this coincided with your visit with these
8 men to Omarska or do you think this was a different visit?
9 A. I don't know of any other visit. I know that when I was there,
10 there were the people whom I mentioned. I don't know about anything
11 else. But I know that I never went to Omarska or Keraterm before or
12 after that one occasion.
13 MS. PIDWELL: If we could turn, please, to the fourth page in the
14 B/C/S and the second page in the English. And in the B/C/S, if we could
15 perhaps go to the right-hand side; it's the article on the other side of
16 the page. Thank you. And if we could make it slightly bigger, if
18 Q. Now, I'm not sure whether you can actually read that, sir. It's
19 a little bit blurred.
20 A. It's difficult, but I can see -- I can read the bold letters.
21 Radoslav Brdjanin, Radoslav Vukic, Prijedor Radic, Stojan Zupljanin;
22 these names are printed in bold letters.
23 Q. And there's a portion there which says:
24 "After they," referring to those -- the part of the delegation
25 from Banja Luka, "had made a tour of the combat areas and collection
1 centres, the visitors from Krajina thanked their hosts for their
2 hospitality and efforts in creating a new Serbian state in that area."
3 Do you -- do you agree that that's an accurate reflection of what
4 happened during your visit, that the visitors thanked the hosts from
5 Prijedor of their efforts after they visited the combat areas and
6 collection centres?
7 A. I told you in the proofing, and I must repeat it now, that I
8 don't know where they went earlier. That information is not known to me.
9 They may have come from Banja Luka and waited before we entered. Or
10 maybe they went to the combat area and then went on. That's something I
11 don't know. I only know what I mentioned, what I spoke about. But I can
12 see here that Ecimovic is mentioned also.
13 Q. And do you recall being present when Radoslav Brdjanin said:
14 "What we have seen in Prijedor is an example of a job well done"?
15 A. I tell you, I don't even remember who spoke up there, let alone
16 such details. No, I really don't remember.
17 Q. And you -- you told us earlier, sir, that you didn't know that
18 this delegation was coming before you actually joined them. Why was it,
19 then, that you joined the delegation going to Omarska?
20 A. Well, I told you, I was on the sidewalk. And they -- the people
21 from the municipality, that is, Mico Stakic, and maybe there was also
22 Simo, I'm not sure, or perhaps he only drove up the car. But they were
23 outside. I knew nothing about that. And they almost dragged me with
24 them because there was a delegation coming, and I had to come with them.
25 And that's how it was. I was almost dragged there. And I didn't know at
1 all that they would come or where they would go because they arrived when
2 I was on the pavement.
3 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask that that newspaper article be admitted and
4 marked, please.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object. I believe
6 that the Prosecutor failed to show a sufficient nexus between this
7 witness and this document. He is not familiar with the article, nor does
8 he know anything about the statements. And he even wrongly identified
9 the persons who went to visit Omarska.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I support Mr. Krgovic's objection.
11 I believe that the witness's testimony is of much better quality than the
12 article itself, so that the journalist's interpretation of the events may
13 be superfluous at this point in time.
14 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, I'm trying to remind myself as to where
15 we about a year ago on this matter of newspaper articles, and my
16 recollection is that the substance of the objections are well-founded
17 insofar as that what we have, taken at its highest, accounts by a -- I
18 was going to say a third person, but by somebody outside of the
19 principles involved here and which the witness on the stand doesn't
20 necessarily accept how -- and could -- could you assist me as to how, in
21 your view, this is admissible and -- and of assistant?
22 MS. PIDWELL: Certainly, Your Honour. This newspaper article is
23 dated 17th of July, 1992. The witness couldn't recall the exact date
24 when the delegation came from Banja Luka. He says in his view it was the
25 one and only time the delegation came and visited the collection centres
1 in the municipality of Prijedor. This newspaper article is corroborative
2 of his evidence that a delegation did in fact come and did go to the --
3 the collection centres, and --
4 JUDGE HALL: So --
5 MS. PIDWELL: [Overlapping speakers] ... his term --
6 JUDGE HALL: He was there. He has given viva voce testimony as
7 to what happened. What do we need an article for?
8 MS. PIDWELL: In my submission, sir, the article assists
9 Your Honours in determining the date, the exact date of the visit.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is not possible
11 because the article was probably written after the visit, even a few days
12 later. So based on the article we cannot establish the date of the
13 visit. We can tell the date when it was published, but not when the
14 visit took place.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you know from another source what the date is?
16 Because you can with this article. If the article -- the article is from
17 17th of July and it says that the visit was on Wednesday. Wednesday --
18 Wednesday before 17th of July was the 14th of July.
19 Is there any ... do we have the -- a date for this visit from
20 another source?
21 MS. PIDWELL: No --
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Or is this a convenient way to determine the
24 MS. PIDWELL: This is -- in my submission, Your Honour, this is
25 the most convenient way to determine the date of this visit, because the
1 witness - and we have can't called all of the witnesses from Prijedor at
2 this stage - however, 18 years later, it's very difficult for them to
3 determine, exactly, a date. They may be able to say summer; they may be
4 able to June, July. But it may come -- this is the date that the accused
5 visited Omarska. And, in my submission, it is -- it's important for
6 Your Honours to know when that occurred.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may?
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have another problem,
12 Your Honours.
13 I believe that no date is stated on this article. It was
14 admitted in the Brdjanin case, but I don't believe that there is a date
15 indication here.
16 JUDGE HALL: Inferentially, I gather -- sorry.
17 Yes, from -- as Judge Delvoie has said, that the --
18 inferentially, that the -- the date would be the Wednesday preceding the
19 date of publication, which would make it the 14th of July.
20 And the Chamber would admit the document for the limited purpose
21 of establishing the date, not for the contents.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1622, Your Honours.
23 MS. PIDWELL:
24 Q. I want to show you a video now, sir.
25 MS. PIDWELL: It's 65 ter 2320, at tab 48. It's in Sanction.
1 Now, if I can just comment briefly. There is background noise
2 and so forth in this video. It's an ITN video going to Omarska. And in
3 the next video is actually the visit at Omarska. They're in two separate
5 I don't propose for the witness to comment on the -- the audio,
6 which is a lot of background noise and so forth. I'm going to ask him,
7 really, just to identify some of the individuals. So the interpreters
8 don't need to interpret the sound as they go along.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MS. PIDWELL:
11 Q. Sir, do you recognise any of those people in that photo frame?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Do you know what they're doing?
14 A. No. I can see them standing, and the fat one is moving.
15 Q. Okay. Let's ...
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MS. PIDWELL:
18 Q. Just while we're watching that, did you have to go through any
19 check-points when you visited Omarska?
20 A. I really don't remember which way we travelled there. Much time
21 has elapsed. And check-points were nothing extraordinary, especially in
22 areas populated by several ethnic -- ethnicities.
23 That was the usual practice. There were countless check-points
24 all the way to the border with Serbia.
25 MS. PIDWELL: If we can move it up to 12:30.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. PIDWELL: Pause there.
3 Q. Do you recognise that building?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What is it?
6 A. It's Keraterm, I think.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. I can tell by the chimney. The chimney belongs to the
9 brickworks. This was the building next to the brickworks. It was a
10 modern factory which had been built some five or six years, maybe ten,
11 before the war.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. PIDWELL:
14 Q. Do you recognise that building?
15 A. I do. This is the building in which I earned my pension.
16 Q. And which building is that?
17 A. The MUP building in Prijedor.
18 Q. And we see, there, a line of women. Do you know why -- did you
19 see women lined up outside the MUP building in Prijedor in 1992?
20 A. No, I don't remember. I can see a line here, and the line is in
21 front of the MUP building. They're probably waiting for some documents
22 issued by the MUP, because the MUP also had remit over civil affairs.
23 Q. And what kind of documents would -- would they be waiting for?
24 A. I don't know. But I know what the SUP [as interpreted] did.
25 Apart of -- from operative work, there was also the civil work, such as
1 personal identity cards, registering your domicile, registering motor
2 cars, et cetera. That was a department of all the MUPs, including the
3 one in Prijedor. Also driving tests to get your -- to get a driving
5 Q. And in order to leave the municipality, did you need to obtain
6 some kind of document or authorisation from the MUP at this time?
7 A. Yes, you needed some document so that the authorities know that
8 somebody had left so that they needn't search for people and that there
9 would be no suspicion of something else having happened.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This woman is holding a personal
12 identity card.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MS. PIDWELL: All right. I think we can fast-forward now.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that woman, but I can't
17 remember her name. This one is Stakic. The one behind him is Simo.
18 Q. The one -- the one holding his arm out is ...
19 A. That is Milomir Stakic, president of the municipality.
20 MS. PIDWELL: That's at 15:45 of the tape.
21 Q. And the person directly behind him in the camouflage uniform
22 is ...
23 A. Simo Drljaca, looking toward us, standing in the door.
24 Yeah, he is shaking that woman's hand, the woman wearing red.
25 MS. PIDWELL: Let's pause here.
1 Q. So we have Stakic, I think, on the very left. Who's next to him,
2 going from left to right across the table?
3 A. Mico Kovacevic, president of the Executive Committee.
4 Q. And next to him?
5 A. Arsic, the garrison commander.
6 Q. And next to him, beside the --
7 A. Simo Drljaca, MUP chief.
8 Q. And do you know who the woman is?
9 A. No.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MS. PIDWELL:
12 Q. And having a look at this -- this meeting that was being taking
13 place with the ITN reporters, are you able to assist us in where this
14 meeting took place?
15 A. Judging by the room I see, it was probably the large meeting
16 hall - that's what we called it - of the Municipal Assembly in Prijedor.
17 MS. PIDWELL: Just fast-forward.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. PIDWELL:
20 Q. Do you recognise the -- the route that's being taken by this
21 convoy of vehicles?
22 A. No.
23 Q. We see there a blue APC. Do you recognise that?
24 A. Let me just have a look. I can't see it yet.
25 I see it.
1 Q. Do you recognise that vehicle?
2 A. That's the armoured vehicle that the police used in Prijedor. We
3 received it from the army, and it was painted blue. It was used for
4 practical purposes.
5 Q. Thank you. That's almost at the end of the tape. And we move on
6 now to another tape which shows the actual visit into Omarska camp.
7 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to tender this video at this stage.
8 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
9 MS. PIDWELL: If we could have the next video, it's already an
10 exhibit, P1358 -- sorry.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1623, Your Honours.
12 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry, Your Honour, it's tab 48A, the next video.
13 The previous one was 48.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. PIDWELL:
16 Q. Sir, you see on your screen a line of men in what looks like a
17 canteen. Do you recognise that building?
18 A. I don't recognise the building. This is the inside of a building
19 I've never been inside.
20 Q. Do you recognise any of the men?
21 A. No, no. Not for now.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. PIDWELL:
24 Q. Looking at the -- the general state of condition of the men that
25 we see in this footage, can you comment on whether that -- the men that
1 you saw at Omarska were in a similar state of health or condition to
2 these men?
3 A. No, I cannot, because I don't know them personally. If I had
4 known some of them personally before they were brought here and now --
5 the way I see them now, then I could comment. But, as it is, I really
7 This is Simo Drljaca in an office.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. PIDWELL: I think that's all we need to do with that video.
10 It's already an exhibit, Your Honours. He can't really comment. He
11 wasn't present at the meeting, so he can't comment on the interactions.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm a bit confused.
14 I expected that we would see a video about which this witness would say
15 something and a video after the first one. That's why I -- I didn't
16 object to the first video being admitted, but I don't know what the
17 position of the OTP is about the date of this video and why it is
18 relevant, apart from the fact that the witness identified Simo Drljaca
19 and a couple of people from Prijedor.
20 JUDGE HALL: I'm -- Mr. Krgovic, with respect, I'm not sure I
21 follow you. In terms of the second video, the question that was asked
22 was whether the condition of the persons as shown there was what he
23 recalled his own observations to be, and that is items already in
25 In terms of the first video, it was -- apart from the individuals
1 that he pointed out, it was the path that they -- scenes from the journey
2 to get to the Omarska camp. I'm not sure I follow your reservation.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when introducing the
4 first video, the Prosecutor said, We'll now play the video that this
5 witness discussed. But we haven't seen anything that the witness talked
6 about. I don't understand what is the position of the Prosecutor here.
7 We've seen a convoy of cars with some people in them going somewhere.
8 What's the date of this? Is this the visit that the witness talked
9 about, are these the people? We haven't seen or heard any of that.
10 JUDGE HALL: Of course, you would reserve these questions for
11 your cross-examination.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Because if that's the position of
14 the Prosecutor, namely, that this was shot when he was there visiting
15 Omarska, then he should be asked about it. That's why I didn't object to
16 the video, the first video, because I expected to see the continuation of
17 the visit, including the witness.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, do we have a date on which this
19 video has been taken, the first one?
20 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry, Your Honours. We have a date for the ITN
21 visit when it was first admitted into evidence approximately six months
22 ago, I think. And --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's the second one you mean?
24 MS. PIDWELL: That's the second one.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. And the first one?
1 MS. PIDWELL: The first one is the -- we don't have a specific
2 date on it, but it was the -- the ITN only went into Omarska once, and
3 that is a video that precedes the second one.
4 It's the Prosecution's case that this video -- these two videos
5 were taken on the same day. One is the unofficial lead-up to Omarska,
6 and the other is taken at Omarska and was part of the broadcast that was
7 aired publicly later on in the year by IN news. The first part of the
8 video wasn't part of that public screening.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what is the date of the second one?
10 MS. PIDWELL: Second one is early August. Now, it's not the
11 Prosecution's case that this was footage of this man's visit to Omarska,
12 but the purpose of showing Your Honours the first video was the lead-up,
13 and he was able to identify the people who were at the municipal building
14 who were introducing the ITN crew. And the second video was simply to
15 identify Simo Drljaca in that video.
16 JUDGE HALL: Now that the matter has been opened, I'm wondering,
17 Ms. Pidwell, whether we can take your ipse dixit that the first video
18 was -- bears the same date as the second?
19 MS. PIDWELL: If Your Honours would like, I can check through the
20 chain of custody for the videos and provide that information to you. If
21 it's an issue.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HALL: Anyway, we -- let's move on.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 JUDGE HALL: I see the transcript records me as saying
1 ipse dicta. It's ipse dixit.
2 MS. PIDWELL:
3 Q. Sir, I'd like to you show another document, please.
4 MS. PIDWELL: It's tab 45. 65 ter 2750.
5 Q. Sir, you will see on your screen a document dated the
6 24th of July from the Autonomous Region of Krajina to the Prijedor
7 municipality, confirming a number of decisions which were adopted by the
8 Crisis Staff between 29 May and 24 July, 1992.
9 Were you involved in -- were you involved in making -- or passing
10 these -- making these decisions, firstly, by the Crisis Staff, which were
11 then sent to the -- the Autonomous Region of Krajina to ratify, or were
12 you not involved with those?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I may have an
14 objection to this document. Based on the document, we can see it's a
15 document by the municipality of Prijedor, not by the Autonomous Region of
16 Krajina. I don't see anywhere in the documents, at least in the version
17 that's before us, what decisions of -- no decisions of Autonomous Region
18 of Krajina are mentioned here.
19 MS. PIDWELL: Perhaps I'll ask the witness, then, to explain the
21 Q. Sir, have you had the opportunity to look at this document?
22 A. No, I haven't had the opportunity to see the document, until the
23 proofing for this trial.
24 Since ARK Krajina had already been formed, in the heading we can
25 see stated Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Autonomous
1 Region of Krajina, and then Prijedor municipality. All of those were
2 then formed, established by then. And all the municipalities were
3 duty-bound to have all the decisions by their Crisis Staffs verified by
4 the Assembly. This document is related to that. The Assembly verified
5 the decisions of the Crisis Staff.
6 But let me remind you here that presidents of parties and
7 people's deputies were not members of Crisis Staffs, and therefore I'm
8 not familiar with this document. At least I don't have any knowledge of
9 it that stems from that time.
10 Q. All right. We'll leave that.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. We would like to hear
12 the explanation by the witness: Who issued the document?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I was clear. It was the
14 Prijedor Municipal Assembly, but because in the memo it is stated that
15 the Republika Srpska will be established and ARK Krajina will be
16 established, the heading reflects that. And then under that it says
17 municipality of Prijedor. And all the decisions made by Crisis Staffs
18 had to be verified by the Assembly. And it was done -- this document was
19 sent to the Assembly, the Assembly then made its decision and verified
21 Crisis Staffs took over the role of Assembly because they could
22 not -- the Assemblies could not work during the conflict period, and the
23 idea was to have the Assembly either verify or reject decisions reached
24 by the Crisis Staffs. And it's in this context that we see the subject
25 here, and it's very clear: "Confirmation of decisions within the
1 competence of the Municipal Assembly adopted by the Crisis Staff."
2 Q. Well, in light of that explanation, sir, I would ask that the
3 document be admitted or at least MFI'd at this stage.
4 JUDGE HALL: Marked for identification.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: The -- the document may be admitted as an exhibit at
7 this stage.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1624, Your Honours.
9 MS. PIDWELL:
10 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you some questions, finally, on the reasons
11 why you attempted to resign from your position in Prijedor in
12 October 1992.
13 Do you recall making -- attempting to resign at that time?
14 A. Yes, on two occasions. The first time it was in 1992, in the
15 second half of 1992; and the second time was in August 1993, when I stood
16 by this request I submitted.
17 Q. And what prompted you to attempt to tender your resignation in
18 the second half of 1992?
19 A. After the takeover of power, as I've already mentioned during my
20 testimony here and during our previous contacts, so in the period prior
21 to the takeover and during it and up until the attack against Prijedor,
22 there were no incidents in the municipality of Prijedor. After the
23 incidents that did take place - and let me make this clear: I was the
24 president of the party, but the party wasn't functioning at this time -
25 but as a private person I was walking about, and after the armed
1 conflicts in the municipality of Prijedor, there were cases of wilful
2 activity by certain individuals. There were some negative events that
3 took place. And through public discussion, the party seemed to be
4 accused of being behind it. And because of that kind of portrayal of the
5 party among the citizens, which was not correct, I, as the president of
6 the party, for the purpose of defending my own dignity and the dignity of
7 the party, I drafted a document where I explained that in relation to all
8 the negative events that took place in the area of Prijedor that are
9 being ascribed to the party, I submit resignation, unless this document
10 of mine was adopted. And the document had the purpose of washing our
11 hands of all the actions by individuals and groups. And then we also
12 made an appeal to relevant organs to take legal measures against all the
13 people who are involved in illegal activities. But the platform was
14 adopted, and therefore I did not go through with my resignation.
15 Also, the mandate of the people that were part of the structure
16 believed that it's time for younger people to come in and take over.
17 However, since this younger generation also acted wilfully, I then
18 resigned for good.
19 Before that, I had talks with Radovan Karadzic in Mrkonjic Grad,
20 who agreed to my proposals. But on my return, there were obstructions by
21 some people, and I just realized I cannot go on, because I saw that
22 people had same goals. And then I resigned, although the Assembly wasn't
23 there in full complement. On behalf of the Main Board,
24 Mr. Radomir Neskovic was present, and I said, Here you have the
25 representative of the Main Board, but as of today, the 16th of August, I
1 am not the president of the party anymore, and can you formalise that.
2 And that's how things happened.
3 Q. Sir, you used the phrase "wilful activity of certain individuals
4 and groups."
5 What do you mean by that, and who were you referring to?
6 A. Well, it's like this: I can discuss only rumours that were
7 present around Prijedor; namely, it was the party that was blamed for all
8 the activities. But I wanted to defend the party and myself to -- I
9 wanted to prove that it's not correct, and that's why I came up with this
10 document, a platform, a political platform that I presented. I asked for
11 relevant organs to take action. It was their duty to make sure that
12 violations of the law are processed by the police, military police,
13 judiciary. Everything that there were institutions to deal with such
15 Q. Well, what activities are you talking about?
16 A. I don't understand.
17 Q. What activities was the party being blamed for at this time?
18 A. There were talks that they were looting, killing, that they are
19 removing construction material from other people's houses. All the
20 events that come with the war, everything was put on the party's account,
21 so to speak.
22 There were also certain conflicts. But these things, through
23 rumours among the people, created a certain picture of the party. Now, I
24 don't know who was behind that, but the public picture of the party was
25 created in such a manner, and, therefore, I had this published in
1 "Kozarski Vjesnik" so that citizens would know what our position was.
2 You can find it among the documents that are in the possession of the
3 Prosecutor, these "Kozarski Vjesnik" articles.
4 Q. And when you say that you asked the relevant organs to take
5 action, which organs are you referring to when you make that comment?
6 A. Can you -- is my microphone on? Yes.
7 As I've said, like in any other system, there are institutions
8 such as judiciary, police, military, military police, because we were in
9 a state of war, Military Prosecutor's Offices, all of them had some
10 segments that were in charge of relevant activities. There were cases
11 where individuals were brought in for interrogation, finally even
12 sentenced, through the work of civilian and military police as well. But
13 those who were involved would know better about it.
14 Q. And was your complaint that the party was being blamed for the
15 inactions of these municipal organs, or was it something else?
16 A. There was no one I could complain to. Communications were
17 non-existent. Both as the president of the party and as a human being,
18 since our policy was not what was presented, I wanted to show to the
19 citizens what the position really is, my position and the position of the
20 Serbian Democratic Party, so that every citizen would know what our
21 position is.
22 Q. And which individuals in the municipality did you want replaced?
23 A. It was the set that came to power before the war, Stakic,
24 Mico Kovacevic. I can't remember who else was in the board. And the
25 officials themselves, they were not such a problem, maybe initially; but
1 the police and Simo Drljaca, those were the problems. Simo Drljaca
2 didn't want to step down as the chief. It took some time for that. And
3 only through the assistance of the president of the Assembly,
4 Momcilo Krajisnik, who came to visit to one of the meetings where we were
5 trying to force Drljaca to step down, only then, through his authority,
6 we succeeded in having them replaced.
7 Q. When was that?
8 A. I think it was in early 1993. The new officials who came in, I
9 remember everything functioned for three months properly with morning
10 briefings as a means of seeing what was done or what wasn't. But then
11 after a while they started acting wilfully and in their own interests,
12 and we tried to replace them. And, finally, I simply had to step down.
13 I think I'm the only one who stepped down. Everybody else was trying to
14 fight to get some political position, but ... maybe I was stupid.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. PIDWELL: If Your Honours will just bear with me for one
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
21 JUDGE HALL: Cross-examination -- yes, cross-examination.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Miskovic.
24 A. Good day.
25 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic. We've met already.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'll be putting questions to you on behalf of
3 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin. But since the two of us speak the same language,
4 before you answer my question, please wait for a while in order to make
5 it possible for the interpreters to interpret what we're saying.
6 A. Yes, I understand.
7 Q. I believe there was something that you wanted to add at the end
8 of the Prosecutor's questions.
9 A. Well, no, nothing specific. I wanted to say that after I've
10 submitted my request to resign, I also asked to be put back to the
11 position where I was before, but I never received a response. It's just
12 something that got lost in the administration, I guess. Nothing special.
13 Q. Mr. Miskovic, in your direct examination on Friday, you were
14 asked by the Prosecutor about wartime police stations --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- and their organisation. The existence of the wartime police
17 station was something that was pursuant to the Law on Internal Affairs of
18 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
19 A. I did explain that. That was all in keeping with the
20 documentations and laws that were in effect during the existence of the
21 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I also said that they were
22 formed in the 1970s than there was training conducted there, both oral
23 and practical. I explained all that, because it involved people who were
24 doing something else, normally. And it was only their wartime assignment
25 that they should have been doing through the police station.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D159 on the
2 screen. It is under tab 6, Zupljanin Defence folder.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you zoom in a little, please?
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This is a document from 1991 dealing with recruitment and the
6 organisation of the wartime functioning of the MUP. It's a document from
7 the Ministry of Interior, the Socialist Republic.
8 A. Yes, the joint authorities.
9 Q. It also mentions some sort of unit files that need to be filled
11 A. Yes. I was engaged on the basis of this. I was commander of the
12 reserve police station for three months, because my wartime assignment
13 was to be commander of the reserve police station, and the police force
14 was mixed at the time when I was engaged in 1991, and the police station
15 was called Prijedor 2.
16 So before I withdrew from the position of the commander of the
17 reserve police station to become the president of the party, Prijedor Dva
18 was a mixed police station, and it continued to operate that way.
19 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you about the strength of the police
20 force in Prijedor. You answered that question, and you mentioned the
21 presence of the army in the area of Prijedor. Do you know how many
22 soldiers there were, including the Territorial Defence, in the beginning
23 of 1991 in the area of Prijedor municipality?
24 A. No, I don't know the number of army troops or the police
1 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you a series of questions about the
2 operation of the municipality on the eve of the conflict. I would like
3 to ask you about the blockade of the work of the Assembly. It was not a
4 result of any SDS action, was it?
5 A. Yes, I explained that in detail to the Prosecutor.
6 It was the SDA party that prevented the Assembly from operating,
7 and that began even before I became president of the party. When I
8 became president of the party, I named myself head of the committee
9 inquiring into that; and when I did that, within half an hour, we managed
10 to divide up 50 per cent of all the official posts, and the remaining
11 50 per cent of the posts remained for the next day.
12 However, the SDA leadership blocked the work of this committee,
13 so even this effort was prevented. But I explained all that to the
14 Prosecutor when she asked me.
15 But that was the source of information that I had. It was not
16 second-hand information. I wanted to be briefly at the source to deal
17 with this issue.
18 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you about Simo Drljaca and his
19 engagement, if I can call it that, in 1991. You said that he was heading
20 the so-called interest community for education.
21 In 1991, he did not have any official position in the
22 municipality, apart from that, the education part?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. He did not have any entourage, any body-guards, service cars, or
1 A. He worked on the education board for secondary and primary
2 education, and he worked together with Mr. Babic. He was on very good
3 terms with him. And he was later recommended by Babic to become a member
4 of the party, and he would be placed in charge of internal supervision
5 within the party. Until then, he had no other position.
6 Q. I'm talking about 1991.
7 A. No, no. No, in 1991, no.
8 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand me. I asked you if he had any
9 body-guards, any security detail, in 1991.
10 A. No. In 1991, he was just a member of the education board. Even
11 I did not have any other function until 11th September 1991, when I
12 became president of the party.
13 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you a series of questions about those
14 meetings of the SDS, starting from the time when you became its
15 president, and you went through these meetings in great detail.
16 Now, in all these talks at these SDS meetings that you chaired,
17 there was no talk at any point, was there, about any violence against
18 Muslims, expelling them, or any discrimination about -- against other
20 A. From all I said and from all the documents, it is quite clear
21 that there was not a single statement, not a single action, that would
22 speak to a discriminatory attitude. On the contrary, you will see that
23 through all these events the Serbs were only anxious about preventing the
24 sort of suffering that was inflicted on the Serbs in the past, and that's
25 why we acted to prevent that. And we had constructive talks with all the
1 parties. And we kept repeating - and thank God there are many people
2 still alive who can confirm this - that all our activities were geared at
3 that, avoiding conflict.
4 At one point, I said, Just give me any reason why we should do
5 this. We were afraid of opening old wounds. Many generations by then
6 had grown up together. They were friends, they intermarried, they went
7 to youth labour drives together in major construction projects. And
8 unlike the immediate post-war generation, which still felt those old
9 wounds very bitterly - I don't know if the Trial Chamber knows this, but
10 only from the area of Kozara many civilians ended up in the concentration
11 camp of Jasenovac, and children were placed in a children's concentration
12 camp in Jastrebarsko - that is the old history of which I wanted to give
13 you an overview and you didn't let me. And those were the fears and
14 reasons why we were trying to avoid a new confrontation, to -- we were
15 afraid that all the wounds would be opened and all the achievements in
16 the past 50 years would be ruined.
17 And if you only look at 1967, 1971, 1974, and 1991, you will see
18 that all these events are interconnected. Everything has its cause an
20 Q. I have to ask you to slow down a little.
21 A. Well, you have to remind me all the time because I keep
23 Q. One part was not recorded, when you said that the entire Serbian
24 population from Kozara was deported into --
25 A. Yes, that was their wretched fate. Apart from the people who
1 formed the 1st Partisan Brigade, many civilians remained in their
2 villages and hamlets from Gradiska to Kostajnica. All these civilians
3 ended up in the concentration camp of Jasenovac. The children from
4 Kozara ended up in the Jastrebarsko concentration camp also in Croatia,
5 like Jasenovac.
6 Q. Mr. Miskovic, will you please slow down. When you were about to
7 tell us about this historical background and all the fears that the old
8 sentiments might be awakened ...
9 A. Yes. And that's why it was our policy to do everything possible
10 to prevent a new conflict, a new confrontation, knowing that it was
11 pregnant with consequences.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness
13 65 ter 687? It has not been exhibited -- or it has been exhibited, but I
14 don't have the exhibit number.
15 Just a moment, Your Honours, the Prosecutor showed this exhibit
16 some time ago.
17 Sorry, 65 ter 587. P1670, or 17.
18 Q. You spoke about this a moment ago with the Prosecutor.
19 A. Yes, it's from the radio.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page.
21 ERN number is 0100-8950.
22 Q. See this paragraph, before the word "reporter," begins with the
23 word "thus."
24 "... that was yet another proof that the middle letter D in the
25 name of our party really means something and that we wanted to eliminate
1 any surprises in this manner. Our intention was to break the ongoing
2 blockade around the division of power and the deliberate drawing of this
3 region into chaos. We had promised that we would not allow these people
4 to be naive and outsmarted for the third time in a row ..."
5 That's what you were saying, that your whole action was geared
6 at --
7 A. Prevention. And this reference to the middle letter D, since it
8 was a democratic party, I want to emphasise that we acted in that spirit,
9 in the spirit of democracy.
10 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you about the Plan A and Plan B that
11 were part of this action?
12 A. That was prepared and executed.
13 Q. Now before the walkout of the Serbia deputies from the Assembly,
14 because they were outvoted, the SDS never planned or carried out any
15 actions. Your eventual action was, in fact, a reaction to what was going
16 on in the Assembly?
17 A. Everyone knows what happened in the Assembly of
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina. We have already been through this. There was a
19 referendum among the Serbian People concerning a referendum of the
20 Muslims and Croats. No steps had been planned at that point. Everything
21 followed its normal course until the moment when the real danger began to
22 loom that Bosnia-Herzegovina would separate itself from Yugoslavia, and
23 the Serbs were very much against that, very much against a cessation.
24 Than is the main reason why the leadership of the party prepared the
25 Plans A and Plan B, and each of them dealt with a specific scenario.
1 And it says very clearly: In the event of danger, only then would
2 these measures kick in. Otherwise, we would follow a democratic course
3 of action and work normally and take all the steps to achieve a peaceful
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure, perhaps
6 now is the time for the break?
7 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, this is,
8 yes. 20 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
11 JUDGE HALL: Before Mr. Krgovic resumes, the Chamber is reminded
12 that it has not yet resolved the matter of the -- how much time is going
13 to be needed for the Witness Brown who is scheduled to appear within a
14 little more than a fortnight, and we are wondering whether the parties
15 are in a position at the -- say, within ten minutes, in the last ten
16 minutes of today, to further address us on that question so we know what
17 the -- what is likely to happen.
18 You would appreciate that if any adjustment is going to be made
19 to his appearance, an earlier decision has to be made. In that sense, we
20 would appreciate if the parties are in a position to address us, as I
21 said, about ten minutes before we break today, or, failing that, first
22 thing in the morning.
23 Yes, Mr. Krgovic, please continue.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Miskovic, let us continue. Just let me, once more, remind
1 you - and that goes for me as well, because I also speak fast - to remind
2 you to slow down.
3 A. Yes, just you remind me occasionally.
4 Q. Before the break, we discussed the measures taken at the
5 municipal level in Prijedor as a reaction to the events in the Assembly
6 and the down-voting of the deputies of -- of Serb ethnicity in the
7 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 From the moment you became president of the party and later when
9 you spoke to Mr. Karadzic at these meetings, and I see that you reported
10 to the Municipal Assembly about that, there was never any agreement to
11 take action until the moment when the existence of the Serb People in an
12 area should be endangered; right?
13 A. At the meetings of the Main Board to which I was invited as
14 president of the party, I can say that there was never talk about
15 intolerance to any other people, and that can be corroborated by the
16 minutes. Never. At no point in time.
17 The reaction of the Serb deputies in the Assembly of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina was to the aspirations of the other two peoples to
19 bring about the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia. In that
20 context, the Serb representatives were afraid for the biological survival
21 of the Serb People. And then, as a consequence, a Serb Assembly
22 separated from that Assembly, and then there was also the territorial
23 organisation of the Krajina. That was a period of difficult
25 Later, the procedure was -- and I spoke about Variants A and B.
1 They were the reaction to possible problems that could occur later with
2 regard to the problems connected with the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 and the non-acceptance of the Serb People of that cessation and their
4 wish to remain within Yugoslavia. The assessment was probably made in
5 the top echelons of the party that to this could bring about conflict.
6 Then two variants were worked out, and the presidents of the
7 Municipal Boards were to act in accordance, when the survival of the
8 Serb People in their municipality would be in danger. And it was
9 explained in that context.
10 Q. You said, Mr. Miskovic, that one of the decisions of the
11 Serb People in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to carry out
12 a plebescite about remaining in Yugoslavia; right?
13 A. Because of the decision of the Serb representatives to separate
14 from the work of the Assembly for the reasons stated, namely, the wish of
15 the other two peoples to bring about the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
16 and that's why the decision was adopted -- or could you repeat the
18 Q. I asked you about the plebescite of the Serb People.
19 A. Well, to check what the Serb People felt, whether they would back
20 it up, they -- there was a -- so there was a plebescite which was
21 conducted by means of which the opinion or the attitude of the Serb
22 People was checked, whether they wanted to secede or remain within
24 Q. Answering the Prosecutor's question with regard to the
25 intercepted conversation with Mr. Tadic [as interpreted], you said that
1 in the territory of Prijedor municipality, 60 per cent of the population
2 are Serbs and that this information differs from the information
3 contained in the results of the census in 1991?
4 A. Yes, that's a fact. But you must bear in mind that after the
5 official census, the share of the ethnicities was inadequate, because
6 8 per cent of the population stated that they were Yugoslavs. And out of
7 these 8 per cent, 80 to 90 per cent were actually Serbs. Bearing in mind
8 that fact, I said before that the actual situation was not as reflected
9 in the census results. But this new census which was carried out by
10 going from house to house actually confirmed these assumptions that
11 Prijedor had a Serb majority, and I informed the president of the party
12 accordingly, and I pointed out to them the newly -- the new situation,
13 based on the newly established state of affairs. And I had my people
14 check whether the constitution allowed for additional steps.
15 So nothing was done rashly, if this is enough.
16 MS. PIDWELL: Just one intervention in the transcript: It
17 records Mr. Krgovic stating at line -- page 58 line 1:
18 "There was an intercepted conversation with Mr. Tadic."
19 And I'm just wondering if you could clarify that because I didn't
20 play him any conversations with Mr. Tadic.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Miskovic, what I asked you about, I spoke about intercepted
23 conversations with Mr. Karadzic; correct?
24 A. Yes, yes, I explained as much to the OTP. And I explained once
25 more in detail.
1 Q. And further on in that intercepted conversation, Simovic is
2 mentioned. Do you remember the position of Mr. Simovic at that time, the
3 vice-prime minister?
4 A. I don't remember. But I know that he was a lawyer, and that's
5 why I tasked him with these things, because he knows these things. It is
6 his field of expertise, and I wanted him to provide answers.
7 So we wanted to check whether it was possible under the
8 constitution and laws and regulations whether this was possible, and the
9 right man to do that was Simovic. And it will be clear to anybody who
10 reads through that. Of course, I mean the one reading these texts must
11 be a -- an expert, not a layperson. And I don't know which position he
13 Q. The Prosecutor asked you a series of questions about the shadow
14 cabinet which was established at one point.
15 As far as I understood your answer, this appointment of people,
16 the Crisis Staff and -- or to call it the shadow cabinet, was no secret.
17 There were even jokes among Muslims and Serbs because everybody knew who
18 was in witch position; right?
19 A. Well, it was half-public and half-secret, but hardly anything was
20 hidden. I can only speak about what I took part in. We really wanted to
21 find adequate solutions. But we also stated clearly: Where we couldn't
22 come up with an adequate solution, we would have to provide a reserve
23 solution. And that was Variant B, which was in force for Prijedor
24 municipality. It was, again, in line with the instructions that were in
25 effect for all municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
1 And about jokes, yes, there were jokes around. I like to -- I'm
2 detached from everything. That's my nature.
3 Q. And this shadow cabinet, was -- its existence was used in talks
4 with the SDA. You said to them that unless a solution is found that you
5 will establish this shadow cabinet?
6 A. No, we didn't speak to them about that. We only said that a
7 solution to all the problems in and around Prijedor must be found. We
8 went into the relations that existed formally about all the traumas, and
9 they knew all that. But only -- I only reminded them of that, to have
10 everybody understand that things were serious so that the problems about
11 which I have already spoken today should not aggravate. And I said that
12 people intermarried, they worked together, and so on and so forth. So
13 there were friendships in place and very good relations, partly. So in
14 order to avoid destroying all that, and for the young generation who
15 haven't lived through the Second World War and didn't have any blood on
16 their hands, should be spared of -- of chaos once more in history.
17 Q. Do you know if the Muslim side, the SDA, had any plans of their
18 own, something like your Variants A and B?
19 A. I cannot say that with certainty because I'm not acquainted with
20 their plans, but I know I heard from military circles that they have
21 units ready, that they are arming themselves, that they have weapons.
22 That's what I heard. But I never heard as much from them. It isn't
23 any -- it isn't the information that I received directly from the other
25 At the time, I thought that military security knew everything,
1 that they were on top of it all. And, actually, they were, because they
2 had their informants in all ethnic groups.
3 Q. As far as I understood you, you didn't hear from the Muslim side
4 that they have all that, but you got all that information from the army,
5 that there are such plans and such units and so on?
6 A. I said that I didn't receive information directly, through my
7 contacts. But I did hear it from military representatives that they are
8 armed. Actually, both sides. And that they have snipers, both sides,
9 actually. And all citizens had heard of it. And that some people would
10 be slaughtered, this day and other, on the following day. But this isn't
11 anything that I was in a position to know even then, let alone today,
12 after 20 years.
13 Q. Just a correction to the transcript: When you said that they had
14 their structures and their weapons, you were referring to the Muslim and
15 the Croat side; right?
16 A. Yes, yes. But I did say that the man Slavko Ecimovic commanded
17 one of those units, the Green Berets. He was a Croat, but he commanded a
18 Muslim unit. I sent Dr. Sadikovic to inform him that I wanted to talk to
19 him so that nothing silly happens. Afterward when he was taken prisoner
20 and I asked Zeljaja to talk to him, which was approved, and I asked him
21 what came into him and what he had done, he only answered, Well, I know
22 you, and I know what are you like. Well, he should have listened to me
23 when I first spoke to him, but possibly my assumptions were not
24 altogether correct.
25 Q. On page 63, line 16, it was entered in the transcript to -- that
1 you're referring to two sides, and I just wanted to make clear that the
2 two sides you meant were the Muslims and the Croats.
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Mr. Miskovic, you mentioned in your testimony the date when you
5 left to go to the meeting at the SJB of Prijedor on the 29th of April and
6 that there was a problem with an order that arrived at the station.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 1D150.
8 That is tab - let me just see - tab 5 of the Zupljanin Defence binder.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone of the accused please be
10 switched off.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us enlarge ...
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a document issued by
14 Delimustafic. And we can see here that the Presidency of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina made a decision - and then several paragraphs - that
16 complete and massive roadblocks shall be set up along all roads on which
17 JNA units are expected to pull out.
18 And then item 2:
19 "Block the wider surroundings of military facilities from which
20 materiel and equipment are likely to be taken out and -- and they shall
21 be guarded by the units of the TO of the Republic of BH and the MUP."
22 And 3:
23 "Unannounced convoys of former JNA units and convoys without MUP
24 escort shall not be allowed to leave the barracks or communicate within
25 the territory of the Republic BH."
1 And under 4:
2 "Accelerate planning and start combat activities on the entire
3 territory of the Republic of BiH and coordinate these with the TO staff
4 of the region, the district, and the Republic of BiH."
5 And it goes on to speak about the protection of the population.
6 Q. This is what basically arrived at the SJB, something with this
7 content, that MUP units shall be blocked and that preparations for
8 fighting JNA units that were starting to pull out of BiH shall be
10 A. I read this order, and what I can say is that at the meeting that
11 I attended that took place within the premises of Prijedor MUP and where
12 Mirza Mujadzic, SDA president, was also present, and the president of the
13 municipality whose name I keep forgetting but it's Muhamed Cehajic, a man
14 who was the communicating officer -- a communications officer within MUP
15 Prijedor arrived with a dispatch and he stood there in the middle of the
16 room and read out the dispatch to all of us.
17 Present there were all police members, in other words, this was
18 mixed police complement, and we all suddenly gasped because there we are
19 discussing issues and then suddenly there is a very explicit, direct
20 order, with tasks specified. And there were already experiences from
21 Slovenia and Croatia where soldiers were withdrawing from barracks, and
22 images, let's say, from Split, where a soldier who it later turned out
23 was a Macedonian was being strangled in a tank. It was a shock for all
24 of us. It took us a few seconds before things sort of settled down, and
25 then there was commotion among us officers there. Discussions started
1 breaking out. But, in short, we managed to conclude this meeting.
2 I, at the time, had no idea - nobody had who was present there -
3 that something like this can be expected. However, when we received the
4 dispatch, it was a signal to us that something must be done in order to
5 prevent escalation and to prevent uncontrolled behaviour of either
6 individuals or groups. And, fortunately, at least for that period of
7 time, the takeover of power succeeded in stopping conflicts in Prijedor.
8 The situation was calm until the 30th of May, when the Muslim
9 forces attempted, again, to attack Prijedor, after crossing the
10 Sana River, and changing the situation there. The shooting ensued,
11 Slavko Ecimovic was arrested, and, as I've mentioned, later on, I talked
12 with him in the barracks. But that's how things started.
13 And, yes, this caused all the meetings and activation of
14 Variant B. I already explained that while the OTP was putting questions
15 to me.
16 Q. Let me show you another document, Mr. Miskovic.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D151. That's
18 Zupljanin Defence binder, tab --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters failed to hear the tab number.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 8. Can we please enlarge
22 this for the witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I forgot to add: The signature in
24 the previous document, it said Delimustafic, but I was told at the time
25 it was Doko, Jerko Doko. But the essence of the dispatch is not in
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's see this enlarged, please,
3 because I want to see -- oh, yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it has been enlarged.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. What I read to you and the document, the content, is it -- it's
7 identical, isn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. There is a document in front of you, commander of BH army,
10 Colonel Hasan Efendic signed, where Mr. Doko was the minister. It's the
11 identical content of this document and the document I had shown you
12 before by Delimustafic?
13 A. Yes, yes, it's the same request.
14 Maybe it is the same because this was a decision by the
15 BH Presidency. They were the authority. At least they should have been
16 the authorities.
17 Q. When you mean the Presidency, you mean the rump Presidency?
18 A. Yes, that's why the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
19 established, that's why the plebescite was held, that's why the Variants
20 B and B were drafted, precisely in order to make sure that such
21 unpredictable things would not happen.
22 Q. I apologise, my question is not on the record.
23 What I said was: This was without Serb representatives. It's
24 the rump Presidency without the Serb representatives?
25 A. Yes, that's the situation at the time.
1 Q. Mr. Miskovic, after attending the meeting with the president --
2 with the representatives of the police and the army, they also knew about
3 the dispatch that there was order to enter the conflict against JNA; they
4 knew about it, didn't they?
5 A. Well, I don't know. I know that upon my arrival I was shown
6 this, and during the conversations with the prosecutor's office in
7 Sarajevo I was shown a dispatch that arrived one day prior about which I
8 didn't know anything also --
9 Q. You didn't understand me. When you received the information and
10 when you went to the meeting with Serb representatives up there in the
11 barracks, then you informed them about it, or did they already know about
13 A. They all knew about it. I -- I was the only one who didn't know.
14 They knew about it. They were all up there. It was only me missing, and
15 then I came. Everybody was already seated up there in the barracks.
16 Arsic, Zeljaja, Simo, Kuruzovic, all of them. The leadership. Stakic
18 Q. And it was at that meeting that the assessment was made that the
19 situation has reached a crucial moment, that something has to be done in
20 order to prevent conflicts, avoid conflicts with the other side?
21 A. The main reason for the takeover of power was precisely that;
22 namely, the suggestions that one could see in this dispatch. And that's
23 how it was explained at the time. The decision was reached because of
24 that, to take over the power, deadlines made for final decisions,
25 assignments made for Territorial Defence and police for the takeover of
1 power and for the purpose of preventing the activities that one can find
2 enumerated in the dispatch. That was the reason. Up until that moment,
3 it was only on paper.
4 Q. It was an autonomous decision reached by the representatives of
5 the Serbian People in the municipality of Prijedor. You didn't get any
6 instructions from the leadership of the party or from the leadership
7 otherwise. It was a decision reached at the local level, and it was
8 prompted by the said events?
9 A. Well, no. Nothing was reached independently. You knew -- you
10 know about the existence of Variants B and A. So the Territorial Defence
11 had been formed. We knew who was at the head of the Territorial Defence
12 and MUP. We made sure that we can prevent any threat to the
13 Serbian People in the area. It applied to all the municipalities, not
14 only to Prijedor. Since these threats existed in the dispatch, we have
15 acted in accordance with Variant B, namely, doing anything that's
16 necessary to prevent violence.
17 Q. But you -- you didn't get a specific instruction on the
18 30th or around that date: You need to do such and such a thing.
19 A. No, no, no. We just activated what existed on paper already.
20 Because the conditions were fulfilled with the arrival of the dispatch,
21 showing that there was a threat in the municipality of Prijedor.
22 This is not a threat only to the Serbian People, according to my
23 reading. We were the representative of the Serbian People, yes, but our
24 goal was to prevent any confrontation and to prevent tragedy for all the
25 ethnic groups in the area. And it functioned for 30 days until the
1 attack against Prijedor. There were no incidents, no conflicts, nothing.
2 Like in any town, there were Muslim and Croats' bars and other shops in
3 Prijedor that were not touched. One can prove that. But later on, there
4 was an escalation which had its consequences. But that's a different
6 Q. Just one more question related to this: Do you know that one of
7 the results of this dispatch in the territory of the, let's say,
8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was ordered to mobilize the reserve
9 police forces and putting them under combat readiness?
10 A. By whom?
11 Q. Well, on both sides. Both parties ordered reserve police
12 stations to be mobilized.
13 A. I didn't understand your question.
14 Q. Do you know that, on the 29th of April --
15 A. Yeah, yeah, the day before.
16 Q. -- that it was ordered that the full police complement should be
17 mobilized, not only in the municipality of Prijedor but in all Krajina
19 A. No. I thought I explained it. I may not have been clear enough.
20 We acted according to Variant B, to Plan B, which involves every
21 municipality in Bosnia. And individual municipalities made assessments
22 according to their needs. Everything was regulated on paper, but no
23 measures were taken before there was an obvious threat. And once the
24 threat was obvious, measures were taken to prevent tragedy in the area,
25 in this specific case, in the municipality of Prijedor. But it was --
1 the same applied for all municipalities that were within the B Variant
2 conditions as well as for the other, for the A Variant conditions.
3 Q. On that day, on the 29th of April, when you were in the
4 Prijedor SJB, Hasan Telundzic, was still there?
5 A. Yes, he was still presiding the meeting there as the chief of
6 MUP. He was presiding the meeting. The rest of us were guests; myself,
7 Mirza Mujadzic as the SDA president, and president of the Municipal
8 Assembly, Muhamed Cehajic.
9 Q. Prosecutor also showed you document P652.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please put that up on the
12 Q. Mr. Drljaca, who, at the time, already took over as the chief, he
13 is here sending to the Banja Luka CSB a dispatch containing, let's say,
14 two information. The first one is that ten police stations with
15 1.587 policemen were mobilized.
16 A. Yes, 1.587.
17 Q. And, second, no one failed to respond or avoided work duty.
18 That's the first part of the dispatch.
19 And in the second part it is stated that in accordance with the
20 conclusion of the Executive Board of the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor
21 municipality, control was seized over facilities. And then there's an
22 explanation of how it took place.
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. We can see "in reference to," and your dispatch, and then there's
25 a number. It's in reference to a dispatch issued on 29th of April. But
1 you haven't seen that?
2 A. Yes. I didn't know anything about that, but it's related to the
3 issue of the takeover of power and other problems. But I didn't know.
4 It was difficult for me to find this out, when I found out about that.
5 Q. There's another -- there's a dispatch that I'm going to show you.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is document 2D-1943. It's tab 7
7 of the Zupljanin binder.
8 I apologise, 2D02-1943.
9 I apologise, 2D03-1943.
10 Q. Sir --
11 A. Could you please enlarge this for me? It's rather illegible.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please enlarge this.
13 Q. This is a dispatch sent to all the security stations, to all, to
14 the chief, on the 29th of April --
15 MS. PIDWELL: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, but
16 my -- the English version states that it is sent to the security stations
17 in Bosanski Petrovac, Bosansko Grahovo, Drvar, Kupres, Teslic. It
18 doesn't necessarily say to all of the SJBs in the area of the Krajina.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It must be a language problem. It
20 says SJB, that is, public security station, to all, to the chief, and
21 then it names other separate addressees in the second line.
22 Q. Could you please look, Witness, tell us, whether it says: SJB,
23 to all, to the chief, and then individual SJBs are named.
24 A. It says clearly:
25 "... public security station - to all - to the chief."
1 And then in the second line, it says, again:
2 "Public security service, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosansko Grahovo,
3 Drvar, Kupres, Teslic, to the chief."
4 "To the president ..."
5 Q. I'm not interested in the presidents of these Serbian
6 municipalities that are named.
7 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, are you satisfied that we are looking
8 at the same document?
9 MS. PIDWELL: I am satisfied that we're looking at the same
10 document. I'm not satisfied that the meaning of the words is what is
11 being portrayed. But it may be a matter of interpretation and the
12 wondering of the Serbian version as well as the English. I can't really
13 assist because I don't understand the nuances between the languages.
14 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I can make it clearer with the help
16 of the witness, although we've already heard evidence about this.
17 When it says "SJB - to all," it means that it's addressed to all
18 the public security stations in the area of -- of a CSB.
19 Q. Mr. Miskovic, at the time when you were working as a policeman,
20 when you would receive a dispatch from the centre of security services
21 and when it's addressed "SJB - to all," does that mean to all the public
22 security stations under the supervision of that centre?
23 A. Yes, to all those covered by the sender.
24 Q. And these stations, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosansko Grahovo, Drvar,
25 Kupres, Teslic, at the time, they were not under the CSB Banja Luka.
1 They only joined later, and that's why they are named separately?
2 A. I don't know about that. I can't tell you anything.
3 Q. If you don't know, I won't insist.
4 Mr. Zupljanin repeats here, although we can only see that the
5 signature says "Chief" but we don't if he really signed it. Anyway, this
6 dispatch repeats the order sent by Delimustafic. It says, in the
7 introduction, the minister of the interior of the Republic of BH
8 reference, et cetera, et cetera, and then Delimustafic's dispatch is
9 literally rendered.
10 A. Yes. It begins, I think, on page 1, and then continues on
11 page 2. Here it says:
12 "Speed up plan and begin combat activities."
13 Q. Now, regarding this dispatch, on the following page you see the
14 measures recommended by the CSB, the Security Services Centre. Look at
15 page 2.
16 A. It's not here.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2 in Serbian.
18 And could we zoom in on the first paragraph.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hardly see.
20 "Carry out a full and comprehensive mobilization of the
21 active-duty and reserve police force and all the other employees in
22 public security stations."
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So one of the measures ordered by the CSB is to carry out a full
25 and comprehensive mobilization of the active-duty and reserve police and
1 all the other employees in public security stations.
2 In item 2, it says:
3 "Go for full combat readiness."
4 Can we now go back to 5652.
5 A. You mean those provisional measures?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I meant P652.
7 Q. Mr. Drljaca says here ten police stations have been mobilized.
8 He indicates their strength. And there were no cases of non-response.
9 So this is the request for mobilization, the order for mobilization that
10 arrived on Telundzic's desk?
11 A. I can't be very sure. I think so.
12 Q. Mr. Miskovic, I'm asking you these questions precisely because
13 you said you were confused when the Prosecutor showed you these
14 dispatches. And since you hadn't seen the dispatch on which the reply of
15 Mr. Drljaca was based, I wanted to show you this dispatch to which
16 Drljaca was actually replying. It concerns the full mobilization of all
17 the police complements of all public security stations in the territory
18 of the centre. That's the dispatch from the 29th.
19 A. Well, I don't know. When I saw reference, dispatch dated
20 28th April, I was sorry I wasn't informed about it. And I realized when
21 I came to that meeting in the barracks that everybody was already very
22 well informed. I was the only one who was not privy to it. And I still
23 feel left out after 13 years.
24 Q. It's just missing from the record that when -- you meant when you
25 saw this dispatch from Delimustafic that the -- the contents is the same?
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter does not understand the
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I will ask you a leading question to deal with this.
6 When you are saying that you were not aware of these dispatches,
7 you are talking about Doko's dispatch or, rather, Delimustafic's dispatch
8 that was just shown to you?
9 A. As far as Doko's dispatch is concerned, I knew about it, I was
10 there when it was read out at the meeting at the police. Now, who signed
11 it, I don't know. I knew all the time that it was from Doko, and I
12 thought it was the dispatch related to the previous period. And it was
13 very hard for me to feel that I am out of the loop. Everyone else was
14 informed. I was the only one who didn't know about it. After so many
15 years, I still feel left out.
16 Q. Mr. Miskovic, you described that the takeover was peaceful, and,
17 at that time, on the 30th of April and in the days that followed, there
18 were no skirmishes, there were no armed clashes until the moment of the
20 A. Not only armed skirmishes. There were no verbal clashes either,
21 as I explained here in the courtroom. I met with Cehajic, who was
22 president of the municipality until then. I talked to him. He was
23 unhappy, but still, we had a normal conversation. I tried to present my
24 arguments and reasons. He was unable to accept them. His vanity was
25 hurt. And I can understand all that. But, at any rate, I thought then
1 that our solution was much more painless, and it really was, until the
2 attack on Prijedor on the 30th of May. There was no incident, no verbal
3 clash, no armed incident. Nothing. Until the attack on Prijedor. You
4 can see that from the documents. You can see that if you speak to people
5 from the area of all ethnicities. There was no conflict.
6 Q. Then continuing to reply to the Prosecutor's questions, you
7 talked about the talks with the representatives of Kozarac, and you
8 mentioned your involvement in those negotiations. You mentioned some
9 other participants. Those were talks at the local level, in Prijedor;
11 A. Yes. These talks were held at the level of the municipality of
12 Prijedor, and the basic purpose was as I described: To find jointly some
13 solutions to avoid confrontation, because, as I saw it, there was no
14 reason for confrontation in the municipality. And I told them, Give me
15 one reason why we should have a conflict.
16 Q. And there was nobody from the outside, outside Prijedor, at those
18 A. No. We dealt with it on our own. It was our problem. We were
19 looking for solutions. We thought we would find solutions in contacts
20 with people, in talks. Even before the takeover I had tried to establish
21 these contacts, because the Assembly was unable to meet, because it was
22 paralysed, because tensions were rising. I asked my Muslim deputy to go
23 and talk to people, to defuse tensions, to avoid conflicts. However, he
24 shirked from that all the time, and I asked him straightforwardly, How
25 come that I have the courage to go to Muslim communities and you don't
1 have the courage to go to Serb communities?
2 I can only assume that we were briefed differently. We had been
3 given different platforms. My only aim was to avoid that -- that the
4 fate of the Serbian People from 1914 and 1941 not repeat itself. That
5 was the main motivation of my generation, all the people who were born in
6 1945, like me.
7 Q. Part of your answer does not seem to be on record.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. The last bit, when you said that the wounds were still fresh,
11 that you are the generation of 1945. That part is missing.
12 Mr. Miskovic, you had a special interest in -- in keeping peace
13 in -- in those talks in Kozarac because you spent part of your youth in
15 A. My general commitment at that time and always is to have a
16 peaceful conversation with every individual, every group, anyone who
17 could contribute to a peaceful solution. I know it's difficult from this
18 perspective to understand what kind of times these were, but by that time
19 we had seen wars in Croatia, in Slovenia, the psychology of killing, it
20 was a general psychoses that everyone lived in their own way.
21 And at that time, in order to avoid the repetition of 1941 and
22 the concentration camps and the concentration camps for children and the
23 massacres on Kozara Mountain, to avoid putting salt and reopening these
24 old wounds and to preserve all that has been achieved -- had been
25 achieved over the 50 years in terms of mutual peaceful co-existence with
1 all the mixed marriages, the mixed friendships. And a member of my
2 family, one of my brothers-in-law, is a Muslim. I spent my childhood
3 there, of course, but I had also tried, through my commander, to do the
4 same in his local area. I brought their people through the check-points
5 to talk together. Kadinic [phoen] always said it's not the right time.
6 Maybe now he can explain why it was not the right time. To me, it was
7 always the right time. And you can see it from all of my actions and all
8 my words.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see the witness is
10 very emotional at the moment. I think he's crying. Perhaps we should
11 adjourn now.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very difficult for me to talk
13 about these things.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I agree, Mr. Krgovic. Thank you.
15 Mr. Miskovic, we -- your testimony obviously is not complete, but
16 we are near the time where we would adjourn for the day. We have some
17 administrative matters with which to deal, so I'm going to excuse you at
18 this point, and we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.
19 The usher will escort you from the courtroom.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm really sorry I got
21 so emotional.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, are you or other counsel from the OTP
25 present in court able to assist us further with the timing question which
1 was raised by Mr. Zecevic who, of course, is not with us today. But
2 you -- you were present in court, if memory serves, and you remember his
3 concerns. And we had invited a response from the OTP and, as I said, we
4 had left the matter unresolved.
5 Are you in a position - when I say you, I mean "you" plural - in
6 a position to speak to this at this moment?
7 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, indeed, Your Honours. My understanding was --
8 where it was left was to work out the length of time it would take for
9 Mr. Brown to conclude his evidence in-chief and cross-examination. He
10 is -- on the timings that I have, we have estimated four hours as
11 evidence in-chief and I have a total of seven and a half hours of
12 cross-examination estimates provided by the Defence. So I've put him in
13 the schedule for three full days in the week commencing the
14 18th of October.
15 And as -- as previously discussed, I think when this was raised
16 last week, I advised that he -- he would start and finish within that
17 week and then -- and that was the only week that he was available, within
18 this calendar year.
19 The -- the issue that Mr. Zecevic raised about not being in a
20 position to cross-examine him because of the disclosure of the Mladic
21 audios, I think I addressed that fully last week, when I advised that the
22 disclosure had taken place, and the only portions of the disclosure which
23 fell within Rule 66 (B) were two audios and one video, which had been
24 identified from the masses of -- of material specifically asked for by
25 the Defence and provided by us, together with the summary of all of the
1 contents of those materials.
2 So that information was provided to them together with a summary
3 and the identification of what audios and videos fell within the
4 parameters of 66 (B), namely, those three individual items, and was --
5 the summary was provided on the basis that they have asked for this
6 information. We didn't feel a need to disclose it under any of the Rules
7 because in our view it wasn't relevant. But in doing so, we would
8 provide to them -- and we highlighted the fact that it should not be
9 relied upon for the grounds for an adjournment, in order to review.
10 Because, as I've said, it doesn't fall within the ambit of the Rules, and
11 it is not a matter -- it is not material that is relevant to the
12 cross-examination of Mr. Brown. The material that is relevant has been
13 specifically identified and, as I said, is only confined to three tapes.
14 So it's the Prosecution position that he should be called as
15 scheduled. It will create immense problems in terms of the all other
16 witnesses which had been scheduled for the period of October and
17 November - and Your Honours are aware that we have really tightly
18 scheduled them in order to get through them by the end of November - if
19 he is unable to on that day. Because from -- it's only two weeks away,
20 and we're unlikely to fill that position if we can't bring him, because
21 we're going to have to reshuffle all of the ones that are coming up
22 thereafter. And, as I've said, they have been meticulously scheduled in
23 order that we don't have any breaks and that we can finish before the end
24 of November.
25 JUDGE HALL: Worst case, Ms. Pidwell, we start with him on the
1 18th and the counsel for Stanisic is in fact not able to complete his
2 cross-examination within the time projected, where do we go from there?
3 MS. PIDWELL: Well, in that week, sir, if it's not able to be
4 completed, we would be looking for extra sessions that week to conclude
5 his testimony. Because within that -- if they -- within the
6 cross-examination estimates provided to us, we will be able to complete
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, was Ewan Brown supposed to begin his
11 testimony on the 18th or on the 20th?
12 MS. PIDWELL: On the 20th I have it.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: On the 20th of October --
14 MS. PIDWELL: That's right. The Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of
15 that week.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right.
17 MS. PIDWELL: And we are sitting mornings that week. And we had
18 anticipated that if it looked like we would go over, then we would ask
19 for extra sessions that week to conclude him at that time.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: And am I right to also establish that the
21 Prosecution had asked for two hours' examination-in-chief and that the
22 cross-examination of Mr. Zecevic was scheduled to last five hours and by
23 Mr. Krgovic two and a half hours, all together nine and a half hours; is
24 that right?
25 MS. PIDWELL: That was the original estimate provided when we had
1 sought to have his evidence tendered pursuant to 92 ter. You may --
2 Your Honours may recall in August last year when we had [Overlapping
3 speakers] ...
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, yes, but I'm
5 referring to the batting order which was delivered to us on the
6 1st of October --
7 MS. PIDWELL: [Overlapping speakers] ... and as I have been
8 advised by Ms. Korner, who is --
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: So what are the right figures?
10 MS. PIDWELL: It's four hours for the Prosecution and the
11 Defence. Those were the -- those were the estimates provided to us by
12 the Defence. Five plus two and a half.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: So this is all together 11 and a half hours?
14 MS. PIDWELL: Yes.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Will we be able to realistically, even with
16 extended sittings on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, to complete this
17 testimony by the end of Friday?
18 MS. PIDWELL: Well, we're hoping that he -- we may be able to
19 bring him up earlier, so -- I mean, he is here from the weekend. So
20 whenever the previous witness finishes, he will start.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,
24 I believe that this assessment of the OTP is unrealistic, especially
25 considering who is scheduled to come and testify in that week.
1 There is a protected witness who is a military professional and
2 whose examination-in-chief is not completed. It was Ms. Korner who
3 examined him. So that our assessments are much less conservative.
4 And with regard to the testimony of Expert Witness Brown, I'm not
5 sure that we will stay with our estimate of two and a half hours, at
6 least as far as the Zupljanin Defence is concerned, because due to all
7 the current issues still pending, we have not made our final estimate
8 yet. I agree that a possible solution would be to have the witness
9 complete the examination-in-chief and then shift the cross-examination.
10 I believe that it's unrealistic to assess that the end of the
11 Prosecution case will be in November because we are well behind the
12 original estimate of the OTP even now.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, do you take issue with the
14 Prosecution's submission that what you have to deal with in relation to
15 the testimony by Dr. Brown is only three tapes? I mean, if that is
16 correct, it doesn't seem to be insurmountable, does it?
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we haven't had the
18 chance to see the entire material. What the OTP consider relevant for
19 them may not be relevant for us. We cannot tell you.
20 But speaking about the expert witness, let me say that in that
21 huge bulk of material that was disclosed at the beginning of the trial,
22 right now we have now come as far as tab 147, and we believe that there
23 is sufficient material, apart from Mladic's diaries and cassettes, a huge
24 amount of material that was disclosed to us in the meantime. And because
25 the trial is ongoing and we sit every day, we were also unable to review
1 it all.
2 And for -- also for the reasons mentioned by Mr. Zecevic, I
3 believe that it is preferable to have the testimony of Mr. Brown shifted
4 toward the end of the OTP case or, at least, enable us to conduct the
5 cross-examination at that time.
6 I would like to remind you of the testimony of
7 Expert Witness Nielsen. It was extended greatly, and all deadlines
8 were -- all deadlines were crossed, were -- so I believe that the OTP's
9 assessment or estimate is unrealistic.
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, do you have anything to add briefly
11 before we take the adjournment? Because we have past the 1.45 mark.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
13 The Stanisic Defence's position is unchanged. My learned friend
14 has put forward valid arguments to further the extension of the deadline
15 to examine the expert witness, and the Defence position is unchanged in
16 this regard.
17 And as for Mr. Krgovic's submission, I would like to add that the
18 relevance and the scope of the material is for the Defence to assess. So
19 it's for us to decide what's relevant for us and how much time we'll need
20 to deal with it.
21 I'm sure that you will agree with me when I say that the
22 testimony of this expert witness has aroused much interest, both on the
23 part of the OTP and on the part of the Defence. So we stand by our
24 position that the examination of the expert witness be postponed until
25 the end of the OTP case. Or, alternatively, to have the
1 examination-in-chief as scheduled and then have the cross-examination
2 shifted toward the end.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, is there any chance of his returning
5 for cross-examination in the new year?
6 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, the Prosecution -- if Your Honours
7 rule that we can't schedule him for that week in October, we would prefer
8 to have his entire evidence, examination-in-chief and cross-examination,
9 conducted at one time. And as I previously advised, if we finish, as
10 scheduled, towards the end of November, we would then have to break and
11 bring him in the new year because he is unavailable to travel at any
12 other time in this current calendar year, besides that week.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 We take the adjournment to tomorrow at 9.00.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of
17 October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.