1 Tuesday, 12 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we begin in the usual manner by taking the appearances,
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Alex Demirdjian for
14 the Prosecution, with Tom Hannis and Crispian Smith.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
16 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
18 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 Is there anything that we need do in open session before we
21 revert --
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour, just a small submission in
23 relation to the motion upon which you partially ruled yesterday prior to
24 the commencement of the testimony of this witness.
25 Having been reminded of this motion, I reviewed it yesterday
1 afternoon, and it is a motion that was filed on 8th of July seeking to
2 amend our witness list in response to challenges to adjudicated fact.
3 This motion was dealing with a number of witnesses, including witnesses
4 from Kljuc, Teslic, Kotor Varos, et cetera, and I've noticed a
5 typographical error. And considering that you may be ruling upon this
6 motion shortly, I just wanted to bring this to your attention.
7 At paragraphs 18 to 21, we deal with a witness from Teslic. And
8 what we say in here is that he was already planned to be called by our
9 motion of the 26th of May for adjudicated facts that were rejected by the
10 1st of April decision. However, what we requested in this motion is to
11 expand his testimony as well. This was Witness ST-253 for Teslic.
12 Requested to expand his testimony because the Zupljanin Defence were
13 challenging Adjudicated Facts 1214, 1215, 1216, and 1218. And we said
14 that this was an expansion upon the evidence that we sought to call which
15 originally was in relation to Adjudicated Fact 560. And this is where
16 the typographical error comes in.
17 Adjudicated Fact 560 is in relation to the current witness, and
18 there seems to have been an error in the motion at paragraph 21, so I
19 will seek to make that correction right now. Instead of
20 Adjudicated Fact 560, paragraph 21 of that motion should have
21 Adjudicated Facts 500 to 503, as well as 504 to 505. You will find these
22 in our original motion of the 26th of May in the annexes. In relation to
23 Teslic, we had announced this witness, ST-253, for these two sets of
24 adjudicated facts.
25 I hope I haven't confused anybody with all these numbers, but
1 these are the clarifications that I sought to make before we called the
2 witness this morning.
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.
4 The -- on the assumption that the -- what you have just explained
5 clarifies everything, a close reading of the transcript should make it
6 obvious as to what the correction should be. Thank you.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's correct.
8 So we can call the witness.
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we go into closed session.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
11 [Closed session]
11 Pages 15781-15836 redacted. Closed session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE HALL: And we take the break and return in 20 minutes.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.
4 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon to you again, sir.
5 Now that we have settled on the mode in which you would give your
6 testimony, there are a number of other preliminary questions which the
7 Chamber would put to you before counsel for the Prosecution begins.
8 The -- I assume that counsel for the Prosecution has a pseudonym
9 sheet which I would invite the usher to pass to you, and if you're
10 satisfied with the particulars on it, you would sign it and hand it back
11 to her, please.
12 So that is admitted under seal.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1642, under seal, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL: And if we could go into private session, there are
15 two questions that I have to ask you.
16 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE HALL: Have you -- well, we know from the earlier part of
9 your examination that you have not testified previously before this
10 Tribunal. And I would indicate to you, briefly, the procedure. That is,
11 that the side calling - in this case, the Prosecution - would begin by
12 asking you questions. And then the Defence would, for each of the
13 accused, would have a right to question you, arising out of what
14 you would have -- the answers you would have given in your questions
15 to -- put to you by the Prosecution. And then the Prosecution would have
16 a right to ask you questions arising out of their -- their questions.
17 And when counsel are through, the Chamber -- or indeed at any
18 earlier stage, the Chamber may have questions of you, and your -- that
19 would then conclude your testimony.
20 Ms. Pidwell, what I have before me, you have indicated four
21 hours. Is that -- does that still hold?
22 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 And counsel for the Defence, what is your estimate of the length
25 of time that your cross-examination would take?
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we estimate that we
2 need two sessions for this witness, maximum of three hours.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
4 continues] ... it is also our estimate, that we need two sessions to
5 examine this witness.
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
7 Well the -- you would have heard what has -- what counsel has
8 just -- the answers that counsel has just given in terms of the time that
9 they expect to spend with you, so that gives you an idea as to how long
10 you will be with us. But you needn't be alarmed that those would be
11 continuous periods because A, for technical reasons having to do with the
12 tapes by which the record is perpetuated and also to allow for the
13 comfort of a witness, counsel, and everybody else, we do not sit for
14 periods of longer than an hour and a half. And the -- and also, because
15 the courtrooms have to be shared with other trials, we only sit for -- a
16 morning session is either from 9.00 to 1.45; and if it's an afternoon
17 session, it's from 2.15 to 7.00 in the evening. But as I said, that --
18 those sitting days are divided into session of no more than 90 minutes.
19 You are beginning your testimony in the third and final session
20 for today, so that we would be rising at -- for the day in an hour --
21 in -- in an hour and three minutes. And when we resume tomorrow
22 afternoon, we are scheduled to begin in the afternoon at 2.15. So
23 when your testimony -- when we adjourn today, your testimony will be
24 continued at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.
25 And with that, I would invite counsel for the Prosecution to
2 Examination by Ms. Pidwell:
3 Q. Sir, firstly I want to deal with your -- with history of your
4 contact with the members of the Office of the Prosecution.
5 Is it correct that the only time you were interviewed by the
6 Office of the Prosecutor was in Belgrade on the 25th of May this year?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And during the course of that interview, you had your lawyer
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was your lawyer's name?
12 A. Jovo Dimitric.
13 Q. And since your arrival in The Hague, have you been given the
14 opportunity to read the transcript of that interview?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. And did you request any amendments or changes to be made to that
18 A. No, I did not. It was not necessary.
19 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honour, I'm going deal with the witness's
20 background now, and I'd ask that we go into private session for that,
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 15842-15843 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
15 MS. PIDWELL:
14 Q. Was it your job to fill in this roster, or was it someone else's
16 A. I did that. It was my job.
17 Q. And from these -- this duty roster, was it also part of your job
18 description to compile reports?
19 A. Yes. At that time, we made quarterly reports that were submitted
20 to the Centre of Security Services, and I believe also the Ministry of
21 Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. What were the nature of the quarterly reports?
23 A. As far as I can remember, they would give reports for the past
24 three months for law enforcement, operative information collected,
25 traffic accidents. But we had on our desk an instruction, how to make
1 these reports. Sometimes they were written reports; sometimes they were
3 Q. How were these reports then transmitted to the CSB?
4 A. I believe, at that time, by courier service. Part of the reports
5 were sent by teletype, through the communications centre. And these are
6 the two types of communication we had with the centre.
7 Q. Now, besides these rosters of duty that we've spoken about, what
8 other records were required to be kept by -- by you?
9 A. There were many different records at the time. I wouldn't be
10 able to remember them all, but we had that duty roster; then the record
11 of people brought in, people detained; a record of fines collected; a
12 record of crimes committed, including serious and less serious ones;
13 record of misdemeanours with a breakdown into public order disturbances
14 and traffic violations; and I think many other records.
15 Q. And in the same way, were reports then compiled from these
16 records for the CSB?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You spoke about a record of people being brought in, people
19 detained. What form did that take?
20 A. Those were standardised forms in which you wrote in the
21 information. You had just to write in the name and attach an
22 Official Note, in case of a detention. All these standardised forms were
23 filed in pursuant to the instruction, which said exactly how you fill in
24 that form, what you write in each box. That's how we did it.
25 Q. And in the case of someone being brought in, what information
1 would you input into this form?
2 A. If somebody was brought in, we had to indicate why, whether it
3 was for the purposes of an interview, or at the request of a court or
4 some other state authority. And therein lies the difference between
5 "brought in" and "detained." People could be brought in with a warrant
6 or without a warrant. A person can be brought in simply by exercising
7 the authorisations that police officers have vested in them, without any
8 warrant. Or they can be brought in on a warrant by the court or some
9 other authority.
10 Q. So if the person is brought in by a police officer without a
11 warrant, this form is filled in. And then what are the standard
12 procedures that then follow?
13 A. From those forms, the policemen on duty wrote a report addressed
14 to the commander and the chief; and from that daily report, you can see
15 all the work that was done by the police station for the past 24 hours.
16 Q. In such a situation, who would make the decision to conduct an
17 investigation or interview, rather, of the person who was brought in?
18 A. Concerning people who were brought in without a warrant, just
19 pursuant to basic police authority, the police officer who brought him in
20 would fill in the form, or the officer on duty. If somebody was brought
21 in on a court warrant, then the court would order specific policemen to
22 bring in a -- the person to the court or some other agency. And once
23 that is done, the police officer's job is -- is finished there.
24 Q. Yes. But on arrival at the police station, if someone's being
25 detained without a warrant, who makes the decision to interview them?
1 A. Well, it depends. He was brought in -- that person was brought
2 in perhaps for an interview by the Criminal Investigation Service, or
3 maybe the chief wanted him, or one of the deputies. It's always written
4 on paper why the person was brought in.
5 Q. Did -- so did the chief actually conduct investigation --
6 interviews himself in some circumstances, or was that left to the
7 Criminal Investigation Service?
8 A. Most often, interviews were conducted by the
9 Criminal Investigation Service.
10 Q. Where did those interviews take place?
11 A. All interviews with persons detained were conducted on the
12 official premises of the -- of the agency that had the person brought in.
13 If it was for the purposes of the Criminal Investigation Service, then in
14 their offices. If the person was brought in for the requirements of the
15 police, then in police stations. If the commander wanted that person to
16 be brought in, then in his office.
17 Q. And just to clarify, in your municipality, where were the offices
18 of the Criminal Investigation Service?
19 A. Upstairs. On the same floor as the office of the chief and the
20 office of the commander.
21 Q. So when you say "upstairs," you're meaning the SJB building
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. On that note, could you explain the various departments which
25 made up the SJB in your municipality.
1 A. Well, the core service was the police; then there was a
2 Criminal Investigation Service; traffic regulation; and the service for
3 contacts with the citizenry.
4 Q. Who did the heads of each of those services report to?
5 A. To the chief and to the commander.
6 Q. What were the requirements to report? Was it monthly or daily
7 or ... are you able to provide us with any information on that?
8 A. Well, the policemen on duty - and I'm talking about the times
9 before the war - would report to the commander every morning. And after
10 that report, he would submit also a written daily report that the chief
11 would review. That was one way of reporting.
12 Q. How often was the head of the Criminal Investigation Service
13 obliged to report to the chief or the commander?
14 A. At the morning briefing, these reports would be made to the chief
15 over coffee.
16 Q. I'm assuming from your answer you mean these are oral reports.
17 A. Oral reports were made every morning; whereas written reports
18 were submitted every three months. There were reports written for the
19 requirements of the station and for the requirements of the centre, and
20 also the republic level, Secretariat for Internal Affairs.
21 MS. PIDWELL: Could we go back into private session, please.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 15850 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
16 MS. PIDWELL:
17 Q. Without naming these people, what was the responsibility of
18 commanders in a substation to report to the overriding SJB under whose
19 authority they were?
20 A. Substation police department were practically police stations in
21 a micro area, and it was their duty to regularly, on a daily basis,
22 report to the commander of the police station. It was their duty, too,
23 to report on certain matters to the chief of the station. So they are
24 police stations in a micro location.
25 Q. You've said that there's an obligation to report, on a daily
1 basis, to the commander but also, on certain matters, to the chief of the
3 What are the certain matters that would require a commander of a
4 substation to report to the chief, as opposed to the commander?
5 A. It was the practice that information of interest acquired from
6 operative work of interest for the work of the national or the state
7 security would be conveyed by the commanders to the chief. At least
8 that's how it was in my station.
9 Q. How would this be conveyed?
10 A. Person-to-person meetings, because they would usually meet every
11 seven days. Or by using special telephone communications, secure
12 telephones that operated from the station section to the police station,
13 and police station to the centre.
14 Q. Can you please explain a little bit about how these special
15 telephone communications worked?
16 A. Besides regular PTT lines, the public security station also had a
17 special telephone. We used to call it the "specijal," the special, which
18 was installed in the secretary's or the chief's office. And also in the
19 substations; they would also have the same phones there.
20 Q. And what made this telephone line special?
21 A. A lot of information was protected at that time, which was of
22 interest from the security point of view. So it was protected from being
23 wire-tapped, because the phones could be tapped. And it was also used
24 for urgent, quick information, if something needed to be reported
1 Q. And you said this -- this secure line was based in the office of
2 the chief of the SJB. Do you know where, when he used it to call the
3 CSB, where it was located in the CSB building?
4 A. I don't know about that. But probably the CSB chief also had a
5 special phone. Also probably the chief of the criminal investigation's
6 police in Banja Luka did. These are special communications that existed
7 in the organs of internal affairs at the time.
8 As for who had them in Banja Luka, I don't know. I assume that
9 if it was at some lower level, it would be in the office of the chief in
10 the police station, and the chief of the centre too.
11 Q. Did you personally use this special line?
12 A. I don't remember, but probably. I spoke from time to time with
13 the chief of police in Banja Luka - not the chief of the centre, but the
14 chief of the police - before the war.
15 Q. Can you give us an example of something that was so urgent that
16 it justified the use of this telephone, this special telephone, to
17 Banja Luka?
18 A. I noted already at the beginning about some information acquired
19 throughout operations that was of interest for the work of the national
20 security. Perhaps some urgent interventions. If something happened, if
21 an employee was hurt while physical force or a rubber bat was used. So
22 some events in the field of criminal work or traffic operations. Also
23 some other confidential-type information too.
24 Q. So besides this special telephone line, what other means did you
25 have to report to the CSB in Banja Luka?
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, before we leave the special line, I
2 would like to ask the witness how this special line was powered.
3 Do you know? Did it run by the ordinary power system, or was it
4 powered by a special generator?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the telephones were connected
6 through the PTT exchange, and some of the special lines -- actually, the
7 special lines were protected in the PTT exchange. The president of the
8 municipality, the president of the committee at that time, also had a
9 special line.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. But my question was merely, What
11 would happen if there was a power cut and no electricity available?
12 Would the special line then still be operational?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a PTT connection. If we, in
14 the police station, didn't have electricity, the phones would still be
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And would the PTT lines sometimes be broken off?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I understand, we're still
18 talking about the period before the war. So I don't recall any
19 electricity cuts then. If there was, like, a regular power cut, we had a
20 generator in the police station.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you so much.
22 MS. PIDWELL:
23 Q. Sir, besides this -- this special telephone line, what other
24 means did you have to report to the CSB in Banja Luka?
25 A. We could report through the communications system and through the
1 PTT dispatch communications, as well as by the traditional messenger
2 system, method.
3 Q. When you say "the communications system," what do you mean by
5 A. I meant radio stations, fixed radio stations. And also via
6 teleprinter. Some information that had to be protected would be sent
7 through the teleprinter network, and they would be encrypted.
8 Q. And when you say "the PTT dispatch communications," what do you
9 mean by that?
10 A. On that matter, there was a specific instruction, a document,
11 about urgent, current, and periodical reporting, and I cannot remember
12 right now what was implied by urgent, what was implied by current, and
13 what by periodical type of reporting. But in any case, this instruction
14 existed, and this flow of information was going from the police station,
15 or the public security station, up to the Security Services Centre.
16 Q. And just further to clarify, when you say that this flow of
17 information is going up to the Security Services Centre by this
18 PTT dispatch, is that a -- is that a telex, is that a dispatch, is it
19 paper, is it -- can you please just clarify what that form of
20 communication was?
21 A. This was written communication on paper. There would be a
22 description of what was happening and then this would be typed into the
23 teleprinter, if it was confidential information that the station was
24 dispatching. And it was sent along the lines of operation. It would be
25 sent to the police, the police section in Banja Luka, the criminal
1 investigation police sector in Banja Luka, and then the relevant chiefs
2 would communicate with each other, chief to chief.
3 Q. Finally, you described the -- you used the phrase "a traditional
4 messenger system."
5 What do you mean by that?
6 A. By regular messenger post. There would be a courier with a
7 brief-case going to Banja Luka monthly, bringing in the mail which would
8 come from the republican SUP and also the mail that the centre was
9 sending to us. And he would, in turn, also be delivering the mail that
10 we were sending to the centre. This would be the messenger service.
11 Q. Was this service available on an urgent basis?
12 A. Not always. It depends. If it was urgent, then it would be sent
13 in the way I described. It would be done on the basis of the
14 instructions. It would be done by dispatch, by special communication,
15 the direct PTT line, and via personal contacts. If any of the superior
16 officers would go to Banja Luka, to the centre, they would meet with
17 their colleague over there. They would exchange information and agree on
18 the job.
19 Q. Were you required to go to Banja Luka for face-to-face meetings?
20 A. At that time, I would just go for the regular meetings of
21 commanders and their deputies, not otherwise.
22 Q. How often would these regular meetings take place?
23 A. I cannot remember. But it would be monthly, one meeting with
24 commanders and deputies. The meetings were organised by the chief of the
25 police department, when we're talking about the police. From time to
1 time, these meetings were attended by the chief of the centre and by the
2 police station chiefs. It all depended on the security assessment in the
3 field at the time and the various actions that were ongoing, events.
4 Q. Was the chief of the SJB obliged to attend similar meetings at
5 the CSB?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were these separate from the meetings that you attended?
8 A. The police meetings would usually deal with the lines of
9 operations, so I assume that the meetings would be held between chiefs,
10 chiefs would go to see the chiefs of, let's say, the investigation --
11 Criminal Investigation Service and so on. And then you would also have
12 meetings among the chiefs of stations and then the centres.
13 MS. PIDWELL: If we can go into private session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 15858 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 MS. PIDWELL: I just want to ask you --
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
16 MS. PIDWELL:
17 Q. I just want to ask you very briefly about the disciplinary
18 measures that were available in your SJB.
19 Perhaps we can take an example. If a police officer commits a
20 crime during the course of his duty, could you explain the procedures
21 that were required when that came to your attention.
22 A. As far as I can recall, before the war, there were disciplinary
23 commissions of the first degree at each public security station. And if
24 what you referred to would happen, that authorised person would be
25 suspended immediately, until the regular court proceedings were
1 completed. The decision on the suspension would be made by the
2 representative of the organ or, rather, the chief of the station.
3 If a person was not satisfied with the first-instance commission
4 decision, from what I can recall, there was a commission of the
5 second-instance at -- at the station to which the person could appeal.
6 And then that decision, which I think was signed by the chief of the
7 centre, there was no longer any option for appeal other than bringing
8 them before a regular court.
9 Q. You spoke about the commission at the second-instance at the
10 station. What did you mean by "the station"?
11 A. Not at the station; but at the public -- at the security centre.
12 So the first-instance one was at the SJB; and then the second-instance
13 commission was at the CSB, from what I can remember.
14 Q. And when you talk about this commission, was it made up of
15 several people?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who would that be?
18 A. I think that the idea was always for these people to be people of
19 a -- with a university degree, with a high education, and that they be
20 with a -- with a degree in law, actually. These were the criteria.
21 Q. And would the chief of the SJB be part of this commission that
22 you're referring to?
23 A. No. The chief of the SJB, as a representative of the station,
24 would sign the final decision the commission made. If we were talking
25 about suspension, if the employee was being suspended from the organ for
1 internal affairs.
2 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I see the time. I wonder if it's
3 appropriate now to break for the day.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we've reached the point, Mr. Witness, when we
5 would take the day's adjournment, as I indicated to you earlier.
6 Having been sworn as a witness, you cannot now have any
7 communication with counsel from either side. And in such communications,
8 as in any conversations you have outside the courtroom, you cannot
9 discuss your testimony.
10 So we will reconvene in this courtroom tomorrow afternoon at
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day
16 of October, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.