101013ED

Page 15862

1 Wednesday, 13 October 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

7 everybody in and around the courtroom.

8 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

9 Stojan Zupljanin.

10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Good afternoon to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.

12 MS. PIDWELL: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Belinda Pidwell,

13 Tom Hannis, Selma Sakic, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution today.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,

15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, appearing for Stanisic Defence this

16 afternoon.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,

18 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

20 And, Mr. Witness, good afternoon to you. Before Ms. Pidwell

21 resumes her examination-in-chief, I remind you that you're still on your

22 oath.

23 Yes, Ms. Pidwell.

24 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 WITNESS: ST-218 [Resumed]

Page 15863

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examination by Ms. Pidwell: [Continued]

3 Q. Good afternoon.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 (redacted)

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17 Q. I want you to have a look at a document now, sir.

18 MS. PIDWELL: And I think we need to go into private session for

19 this, Your Honours.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15864

11 Page 15864-15866 redacted. Private session.

Page 15867

1 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.

7 MS. PIDWELL:

8 Q. Could you briefly explain what a manoeuvring unit is, or was, at

9 the time.

10 A. I'll try to recollect that issue.

11 Just before that, the left-hand side of the screen is what I have

12 on the right as well. I'm not able to follow the pace of my testimony.

13 [In English] Okay.

14 (redacted)

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18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 The choice of personnel for such units had to abide by a number

21 of criteria. First of all, they had to be physically and mentally

22 healthy; they were not to be older than 35; if possible, athletes; as

23 well as another couple of criteria, perhaps. That unit was only being

24 trained and its raison d'etre was to have the personnel trained in -- for

25 situations of disturbances of law and order, combatting sabotage

Page 15868

1 terrorist groups, and some other tasks which were beyond the ordinary.

2 That unit, as well as other such units, could be mobilised only

3 by the republican minister of the interior. He also had to inform the

4 secretaries in the centres and stations. In any case, he was the only

5 one who could order the use of such a unit.

6 Q. And do you recall an occasion when this unit was mobilised in

7 late 1991 or early 1992?

8 A. Yes, it was. In late 1991, and in 1992, a dispatch arrived at

9 the public security station in Kljuc about the unit being mobilised. The

10 minister at the time was Alija Delimustafic.

11 The unit always included between 40 and 50 per cent of

12 active-duty policemen, and the rest were reservists, following the

13 criteria I've already mentioned.

14 The dispatch ordered that the unit be mobilised and that security

15 levels and tasks be raised. Some time in 1992 - I know there was still

16 snow on the ground - we had tactical training in the Manjaca training

17 camp.

18 Q. How long did this training take place?

19 A. I think about a fortnight.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Before the -- before the half an hour

21 expires, maybe we should delete or redact the part of the transcript,

22 lines -- page 6, lines 13 and 14. Okay.

23 JUDGE HALL: We've dealt with that already. Thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay.

25 MS. PIDWELL:

Page 15869

1 Q. Sorry. So the training lasted about a fortnight. Was it -- were

2 you actually present at this training?

3 A. Yes. I was there with my unit. I commanded it.

4 Q. Were there other manoeuvring units at this training as well, or

5 was it just for the unit from your municipality?

6 A. No. There were units from other municipalities, such as Banja Luka,

7 Gradiska, Dubica, and Sanski Most. I think all of those municipalities

8 facing the Sava River and Croatia. It was joint training. It wasn't

9 organised separately by units. We all trained together.

10 Q. And who -- who were the trainers?

11 A. We had tactical training, as well as infantry weapons training.

12 Our instructors were inspectors from the centre, as well as military

13 instructors.

14 Q. When you say instructors -- or "inspectors from the centre," what

15 centre do you mean?

16 A. The centre in Banja Luka. I know that instructors for special

17 physical training came from the centre.

18 Q. Were you issued with any uniforms during the course of this

19 training?

20 A. As far as I recall, we arrived in our regular blue uniforms. But

21 we received camouflage green uniforms for our tactical and infantry

22 training from the army. Certain aspects of training had to do with

23 operating in snow conditions and then we were issued with white overalls.

24 Q. And when the training was completed, were you required to give

25 these uniforms back or were you able to retain them?

Page 15870

1 A. I think we returned them. I believe we returned home in our own

2 uniforms, as far as I remember.

3 Q. After this training, what role did the manoeuvre unit take place

4 in relation to police activities in your municipality?

5 A. After this training, another dispatch arrived for us to go back

6 to our respective stations to raise the manning levels. Those reservists

7 who had attended training remained with the active-duty policemen, and by

8 virtue of that dispatch, a check-point was erected at a cross-roads

9 towards Pudin Han. We began then using those people to man check-points,

10 to assign beat sectors, which were made smaller in size. We had

11 different beat routes designated, and we began providing security for

12 publicly owned and socially owned facilities. It was for that reason

13 that we needed a larger number of policemen. The people from the

14 manoeuvre unit, therefore, stayed with us until the end.

15 Q. And you mentioned that a check-point was erected at the

16 cross-roads towards Pudin Han after this training. Was that the only

17 check-point that was established in this municipality or was there --

18 were there others?

19 A. That check-point was set up pursuant to the dispatch from the

20 RSUP in Sarajevo. Later on, after the events in the Kljuc municipality,

21 additional check-points were set up.

22 I'm not sure, but I think that on the eve of the war in Kljuc, a

23 check-point was set up at the cross-roads at Velagici, and one was by the

24 bridge where an access route to the town was. I'm not sure whether it

25 was there even before, in town, but --

Page 15871

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Or whether it was

2 set up later. But it was certainly there, later on.

3 MS. PIDWELL:

4 Q. Now, at this time, before the war, you've said that you used

5 men - I'm assuming policemen - to man these check-points. Were there --

6 were they only manned by police or were they manned by a mix of police

7 and military at this -- before the war, before the end of May, for

8 example?

9 A. For a while, we were the only ones there, without soldiers or

10 anybody else, but 'round about the time that you have just mentioned,

11 Red Berets - that was the name we gave to them - occasionally came to the

12 check-point.

13 Q. When was the first time that you noticed the Red Berets?

14 A. I can't pin-point the time. But sometime before the conflict

15 broke out in Kljuc. It may have been April or early May.

16 Q. Was it after the training at Manjaca or before?

17 A. After the training. Once we had completed the training, and set

18 up the check-points, reinforced the services in town, that's when they

19 arrived.

20 Q. Were you told by anyone within the police that the Red Berets

21 were coming to your municipality?

22 A. No. We didn't even know who those people were. They would

23 sometimes call on Chief Kondic. They would be seen entering the station

24 maybe weekly. And then I asked who they were, and the reply I got was

25 that they were reservists of the State Security Service.

Page 15872

1 Q. And do you -- did you know where they came from?

2 A. They were travelling to Banja Luka, but where from, I don't know.

3 They were travelling to Banja Luka anyway.

4 Q. Can you describe their appearance, their uniforms, please.

5 A. They wore camouflage green uniforms, military uniforms, and wore

6 red berets on their heads.

7 Q. What -- what were they actually doing in your area?

8 A. I don't know what they were doing. They were standing at the

9 check-points with our policemen. They never spoke about what they were

10 doing. If a vehicle was stopped, they would just look on and watch what

11 the regular police was doing. What they were up to, I don't know.

12 Q. Did you have a state security section of your police station

13 in -- in your area?

14 A. Before the war, there was no such section in Kljuc. But there

15 was a detachment from Jajce that also had authority in Kljuc. During the

16 war, there was one officer with some reservists.

17 MS. PIDWELL: If we could go into private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 15873

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25 [Open session]

Page 15874

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

2 MS. PIDWELL:

3 Q. I want to ask you some questions now about the changes that took

4 place in the police before the hostilities broke out.

5 Did you attend a meeting to discuss changes in the insignia of

6 the police uniforms and so forth; do you recall that?

7 A. Sometime in early May, I believe - in 1992, that is -

8 Chief Kondic called a meeting of police personnel. He said that the

9 insignia would be changed. It meant that we were no longer supposed to

10 carry a staff hat with a red star, but, instead, we would wear a blue

11 beret with the Serb flag. I think that may have been between the 7th and

12 the 10th of May. On the 7th, because on the 6th of May it's

13 St. George's Day. So it would have been on the 7th.

14 Q. Was this a meeting for all police personnel of all ethnicities?

15 A. Yes. All of us attended the meeting, and I believe that a

16 deadline was set for the Muslim colleagues to change their minds, as to

17 whether or not they would accept that or not. I know that only a

18 Croatian colleague did accept. The colleagues who left on the

19 7th of May were officially put on annual leave, and they were in that

20 status until their final decision. However, none of them returned.

21 On that day when the meeting was held, they returned their

22 official badges and their official weapons. Not the uniforms, though.

23 Q. And were you aware before this meeting took place that there had

24 been some discussion about the insignia changing and the -- the police

25 being joined to the Serbian police?

Page 15875

1 A. Yes, I was. I heard as much from Vinko, my chief. We were the

2 last municipality in Bosnia to change insignia. We were still wearing

3 red stars; whereas, the others all were wearing Serb flags. I remember

4 him saying that we would have to do so very soon and that he was asked by

5 the president of the Executive Committee, Asim Egerlic, not to do that

6 yet so as not to upset the Muslim population. That's how he phrased it.

7 And then he told me that whether Jovo -- that with Jovo, the president,

8 and Asim - and Jovo was the president of the municipal assembly - that he

9 went to Banja Luka with them to meet Chief Zupljanin and discussed the

10 matter. He told me then that Chief Zupljanin gave one such hat to

11 Mr. Egerlic as a token of camaraderie and to show him that it wasn't as

12 bad as that.

13 Q. You said, sir, that the -- there was a deadline imposed on the

14 Muslim employees for them to sign, or to agree to accepting this new

15 insignia. Do you recall when that deadline was?

16 A. I cannot be precise. But on that day, the 7th of May, when those

17 colleagues left, they never returned. What the deadline was and how long

18 they were officially on annual leave, I can't -- I don't know for sure.

19 But that information can probably be found in the official documents.

20 MS. PIDWELL: Could we go into private session again, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15876

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

19 MS. PIDWELL: Could we have P450, please, on the screen.

20 Q. You'll see on your screen, sir, a public announcement of -- of

21 the 8th of May, referring to yesterday being the 7th of May; do you see

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it's the Crisis Staff informing citizens of the changes to

25 the insignia in the police station.

Page 15877

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall this announcement?

3 A. The Crisis Staff broadcast its announcements mostly on the local

4 radio station of Kljuc, but it didn't cover the entire municipal

5 territory. However, I remember what this announcement says, either from

6 the radio or, alternatively, I may have read them somewhere. And it says

7 here that it was on the 7th of May, 1992.

8 MS. PIDWELL: And if we can have the second page of each

9 document, please, in each version.

10 Q. Sir, if I can direct your attention to the third-to-last

11 paragraph on that page, it reads:

12 "Citizens are notified that increased presence of armed forces on

13 the territory of the municipality is by no means an attack on the freedom

14 and safety of any of the nationalities, but, on the contrary, a safety

15 and security factor for all citizens and nationalities."

16 Do you recall which armed forces were in the area at this time?

17 A. As far as I remember, it was a battalion manned with TO members

18 from Kljuc and some units of the 30th Division that arrived while we were

19 changing the insignia and the -- and the table bearing the official

20 inscription, "Public Security Station."

21 Q. Did these units then remain in the area?

22 A. Yes. They were in town and around town.

23 MS. PIDWELL: If I could have another document, please. It's

24 65 ter 78 -- sorry, 798.

25 Q. Sir, you see on your screen a decision of the Crisis Staff dated

Page 15878

1 the 25th of May, and, amongst other things, it's talking about

2 strengthening the Territorial Defence in the municipality at this time.

3 I want to draw your attention to item number 6, which refers to

4 the imposition of a curfew and reads:

5 "In order to protect the life and health in the population and

6 prevent the uncontrolled use of ammunition and unnecessary shooting in

7 keeping with the order of," an illegible number of the Krajina Corps

8 commander.

9 And then it goes on to say:

10 "The TO commander and the SJB chief are required to issue orders

11 and instructions to prevent and stop any shooting and disturbing of

12 citizens, particularly between 2200 and 0500 hours."

13 Now, why was it -- what was happening that required such an

14 order, in terms of the shooting and disturbing of citizens at this time?

15 A. When soldiers come from the front line, they are bound to shoot

16 their weapons and that was always a problem for the police. And this

17 also brought about some antagonism between the army and the police. This

18 is an order of the 2nd Krajina Corps, because the 30th Division -- or,

19 no, it isn't that. But some units, anyway, came to our area, and on the

20 25th of May, a unit was returning from Kupres, a unit from Kljuc. They

21 were coming home for home leave. In Kupres, there was fighting already.

22 And there was shooting in front of the municipal assembly building.

23 After this date, at some time in early June, the curfew was imposed for

24 the very reason of these shooting incidents.

25 Q. And who -- sorry. Who did the curfew -- who was it imposed upon?

Page 15879

1 A. It was upon -- it was imposed upon all people. They were

2 prohibited from moving around between 10.00 p.m. and 7.00 a.m.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 5.00 a.m.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, it wasn't on that date.

5 It was only later on when the situation became calmer, in early June.

6 Between this date and June, it was impossible to control anything

7 much.

8 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask that that document be admitted and marked.

9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1644, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, it your position that this document

12 establishes a curfew?

13 MS. PIDWELL: No, Your Honour. We have other evidence to

14 establish that.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

16 MS. PIDWELL: Can we go back into private session, please,

17 Your Honours.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15880

11 Pages 15880-15886 redacted. Private session.

Page 15888

1 I just wanted to raise a procedural, logistical matter concerning

2 the witnesses.

3 I appreciate Your Honours' concern to save as much time as

4 possible and therefore have the witness brought in before you're brought

5 in, but in conversations with some of our witnesses in the past few

6 weeks, there is a problem, I perceive, the witness sometimes is sitting

7 here for five to ten minutes before Your Honours coming in. There are

8 conversations going on the room, oftentimes conversations in Serbian,

9 that the witness is hearing. I don't know what's being said but I know

10 some of our witnesses have expressed that they felt uncomfortable in that

11 situation, and I bring it to your attention. I don't know how best to

12 resolve it, either we can have the witness come in immediately after

13 you're in, or have Victims and Witnesses sit in with the witness on the

14 far side of the room. I just have a concern about that, and I wanted to

15 bring it to your attention.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

18 Yes, you may continue, Ms. Pidwell.

19 MS. PIDWELL: Can we go back into private session, then,

20 Your Honour, please.

21 JUDGE HALL: I was reminded that we didn't officially leave

22 private session before the adjournment but the transcript would reflect

23 that we did, so we now go back into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 15893

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

13 MS. PIDWELL:

14 Q. Sir, just to clarify matters, did you attend any Crisis Staff

15 meetings during 1992?

16 A. No.

17 (redacted)

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Page 15894

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11 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, we had decided to redact a portion of

12 this witness's testimony, for obvious reasons. I'm wondering whether it

13 wouldn't be prudent to revert to private session.

14 MS. PIDWELL: As Your Honour pleases.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 15895

11 Pages 15895-15909 redacted. Private session.

Page 15910

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8 [Open session]

9 [The witness stands down]

10 --- Recess taken at 5.22 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just a brief matter, if I may address

13 the Trial Chamber.

14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, in light of observations of

16 Mr. Hannis at the beginning of last session I would like to assure the

17 Trial Chamber and our friends from the Office of the Prosecutor that not

18 on a single occasion any -- has any communication with the witness

19 occurred in the courtroom, nor were any comments or suggestions made

20 about the witness or the contents of his testimony. The communication

21 between the Defence team members and our clients are no different in

22 nature than the communication between OTP team members in the same

23 courtroom.

24 The difference is, I agree, that they speak in English and we

25 speak in Serbian. And Your Honours, on top of it, when we talk to our

Page 15911

1 clients over there, at many occasions we are not even aware that the

2 witness was brought in. But having said that, I do agree with Mr. Hannis

3 that if the witnesses feel any -- whatever kind of uncomfortableness

4 about this, they should be brought after the Trial Chamber is -- is

5 sitting already.

6 Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

8 The -- you --

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I wasn't meaning to suggest that I had

10 ever seen or observed anybody over there speaking to a witness during one

11 of those sessions.

12 But I can tell you that for some of the witnesses, just being

13 here is difficult, and coming into the room and seeing 10 or 12 or

14 15 people sitting on that side of the room has an effect. And not

15 knowing what's being said and how it's being said -- I just know that

16 some of the witnesses have reported that, you know, that was

17 uncomfortable for them, and if it's something that we don't need to do,

18 then I would ask that we not do it, just to avoid any potential problems.

19 JUDGE HALL: So it now having been brought to the attention of

20 everyone, then everyone concerned would behave circumspectly. More than

21 that, I don't know that it's useful to say anything.

22 On another note, there is an urgent motion for protective

23 measures in respect of a witness who is due to appear the day after

24 tomorrow, and if the Defence wishes to respond, we would be grateful if

25 we could have their responses as a matter of urgency.

Page 15912

1 Thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, could we have the witness back on the stand,

5 please.

6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 MS. PIDWELL: Could I have 65 ter 812, please; tab 16.

9 So for the sake of consistency, Your Honours, I suggest that we

10 go back into private session.

11 [Private session]

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Page 15913

11 Pages 15913-15927 redacted. Private session.

Page 15929

1 Replying to the Prosecutor's question yesterday, you spoke about

2 the disciplinary procedure at SJBs. You spoke about cases when a SJB

3 member commits a crime, that then that member is suspended and that

4 disciplinary proceedings are launched. Do you remember speaking about

5 that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Do you remember that, at that time, that is, in 1992 and 1991,

8 under the laws and regulations in force then, labour laws, that is, the

9 dismissal of a person from their job because they had committed a crime

10 can only be -- can only take place after the completion of a police

11 investigation?

12 A. Then I misunderstood the Prosecutor's question. I don't remember

13 those rules and regulations, laws and regulations. But if I -- I

14 remembered that if a police officer violates -- commits a serious

15 violation of his work obligations, and I'll stick to the police because

16 that's what I know, and once that reaches a second-instance in

17 Banja Luka, then the decision on temporary suspension is signed by the

18 chief. That's how I remember it. I may be wrong, though.

19 And in the first instance, at the SJB, as far as I remember,

20 there was a disciplinary commission and it decided about less serious

21 violations. I remember police officers who were issued a written

22 reprimand. I remember the secretary of the secretariat taking decisions

23 to transfer personnel to another organisational unit, but that applied in

24 case of less serious violations.

25 If a police officer uses physical force or the baton, which could

Page 15930

1 happen, and inflicts serious injury on the injured party, then I remember

2 that the commander assesses whether it was necessary to use physical

3 force or the baton, and if the commander should conclude that it was

4 justified, then no proceedings are launched. In the opposite case, they

5 are. If there are -- if the result was serious injuries, I believe that

6 the person in question was dismissed. But I'm not sure I remember

7 everything perfectly.

8 Q. And another question about this topic with regard to the reply

9 you gave the Prosecutor.

10 The disciplinary report or the initiation of the proceedings

11 could be done by the superior of that person or the commander of the

12 station or anybody else. It was -- it wasn't a requirement that it be

13 done by the disciplinary prosecutor.

14 A. No. They get the case file. I know that I was involved in

15 collecting information. I was tasked by the commander to examine the

16 police officer and draft an Official Note and that entire file would be

17 forwarded to the disciplinary commission. That's how it was before the

18 war. After the war, there was already internal affairs in the MUP.

19 Q. I think the interpretation is somewhat unprecise. Basically you

20 agreed with me that all these persons I mentioned were able to initiate

21 disciplinary proceedings.

22 A. Yes, initiate them.

23 Q. Today you were answering the Prosecutor's questions about a

24 document.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us see P1643, please.

Page 15931

1 Your Honours, I -- I'm not sure whether voice distortion is in

2 place for this witness. If so, I must warn you, sir, keep an eye on this

3 microphone. Do not start answering before I switch it off.

4 JUDGE HALL: No, it isn't Mr. Krgovic. It's pseudonym and image

5 distortion.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 JUDGE HALL: And this document -- this document is under seal.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

11 [In English] Can we go to the private session for a moment.

12 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE HALL: I understand we're in Courtroom I tomorrow. Thank

23 you.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of

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