1 Friday, 15 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of the
13 Prosecution, Alexis Demirdjian with Mr. Thomas Hannis and Crispian Smith.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
15 behalf of Mico Stanisic's Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic and
16 Eugene O'Sullivan.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
18 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness. First of all, do you
21 hear me in a language you understand?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]Yes, I can hear you well.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your
24 testimony. You are about to read the solemn declaration by which
25 witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.
1 I need to point out that the solemn declaration that you are
2 about to make does expose you to the penalty of perjury should you give
3 misleading or untruthful evidence to this Tribunal.
4 Now, then, would you please be kind enough to read allowed the
5 solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]I solemnly declare that I will speak
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: RAMIZ SUBASIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, sir. You may sit down.
11 And, sir, could we begin by asking you to state your full name
12 and your date of birth and place of birth, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ramiz Subasic. I was
14 born on the 6th of May, 1954, in the Kljuc municipality.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Subasic. What is your ethnicity?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Bosniak.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what is your profession today?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a ship builder by profession,
19 but I'm currently unemployed.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Now, sir, is this your first
21 testimony before this Tribunal? Have you ever given before this Tribunal
22 in -- or before tribunals in your country any testimony?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified here earlier once, but
24 not before any of our courts.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Very well. Then you know more or less how the
1 procedure works here. You will first be questioned by the Prosecution to
2 your right, then there will be a cross-examination by both of the Defence
3 teams, and afterwards eventually redirect, and Judges may also put
4 questions to you.
5 We are sitting half days from 9.00 to a quarter to 2.00, with
6 pauses, 20-minute pauses, every one hour and a half. But if for any
7 reason you need an additional break, you just let us know and we will
8 accommodate you.
9 That is all I have to say, and, Mr. Demirdjian, the floor is
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Subasic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. You indicated in answer to the Judge's question that you were
16 born in the municipality of Kljuc. Could you indicate to Their Honours
17 which area of Kljuc exactly do you hail from.
18 A. I was born in Donji Biljani, Kljuc municipality. It's a village
19 located 17 kilometres from Kljuc.
20 Q. And prior to the commencement of the war in Croatia in 1991, is
21 it correct to say that you lived in Karlovac, which is in Croatia?
22 A. That is true. I worked in Karlovac, but I had a house in Bosnia,
23 in Donji Biljani. I used to work in the field in Croatia, in Karlovac.
24 Q. And is it correct to say that at one point in 1991 you did leave
25 Croatia and joined your family in Donji Biljani?
1 A. That's true. When the war in Croatia broke out, I went to Bosnia
2 on the last bus, and I couldn't return to Croatia any longer in order to
3 go to work, and that was why I was dismissed from my employment in
5 Q. Very well. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could you just
6 tell us what is the ethnic make-up of Donji Biljani?
7 A. Ninety-nine per cent of the population in Donji Biljani were
8 Bosniaks, whereas the surrounding area was populated by Serbs.
9 Q. Very well. And when you say the surrounding area, which villages
10 do you have in mind?
11 A. I have in mind Loncari, Gologlavo, a part of Upper Sanica,
12 Lakici, and then Kopjenica, up in the direction of Kljuc. These were
13 Serb-populated villages. Whereas Biljani consisted of Donji and Gornji
14 Biljani, that's lower and upper Biljani, which were Bosniak or Muslim
16 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to take -- I'd like to take you now to
17 the year 1992. As was explained to you, although there are a number of
18 matters you can give us evidence about, I will ask you about very
19 specific events.
20 First of all, for the Trial Chamber, could you tell us if there
21 came a time where you had to surrender your weapons?
22 A. Yes. That was perhaps around the 1st of June or so. They were
23 going around villages and saying that we should hand in our weapons, and
24 I did it too. I had two hunting rifles: a hunting carbine, 8 X 57,
25 Crvena Zastava was the make; and I had the Russian-made shotgun. And I
1 handed them in, in Gornja Sanica. I think it was the railway station,
2 but it was an old railway system called Ciro, which does not exist any
3 longer, and there was this railway building where we brought the weapons
4 and handed them in.
5 Q. You told us that they were going around the villages and saying
6 we should hand in our weapons. When you say "they," who do you refer to?
7 A. Well, there was a van going around, and there were troops in the
8 van. Whether it was the army or the police, I wouldn't know. They wore
9 camouflage uniforms. But at any rate, they were Serbs. And on the
10 1st of June, they took control of the police station, and they set up
11 check-points. One was next to the bridge at Sanica, and the other one
12 was up at Velagici so that we couldn't even move. And then they went
13 around the village and told us to hand in the weapons and that's what we
15 Q. Thank you. And one last question on this topic. Were you the
16 only one from your village to surrender your weapons?
17 A. No. There were perhaps 15 hunters who also had some hunting
18 weapons, and they handed it in. Perhaps somebody had something else
19 also, but I don't know that. I just know that I did hand in my own
20 weapons. And I was given some kind of paper, but I've lost trace of
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, before I get into the adjudicated
24 fact which is 955, I'm just going to ask a question about the conditions
25 of his arrest, and I will get to the adjudicated facts directly.
1 Q. Mr. Subasic, can you tell us when -- if there came a time when
2 you were arrested?
3 A. I was arrested on the 25th of June, in the morning, perhaps
4 around 8.00 or 9.00 a.m. - I don't know the exact time - at my house.
5 Two soldiers came there, they opened the door, I hardly managed to put on
6 my shoes, and they took me outside. My house is about 100 metres away
7 from the main road, and then I could see around 30 of my neighbours who
8 were standing all with their hands on their heads in the middle of the
9 road surrounded by soldiers on both sides.
10 Q. And did these soldiers give you any reasons as to your arrest?
11 A. No. They just dragged me out of my house. I put on my shoes,
12 and they escorted me down to the road, and they pushed me into the line
13 where my neighbours had already been standing.
14 Q. Very well. We will not get into the details of the entire day,
15 but is it correct to say that at one point during the day you were taken
16 to the elementary school in Gornja Sanica?
17 A. Yes, but first they took us in the direction from Sanica to Kljuc
18 and along this road for about a kilometre to a kilometre and a half.
19 Then they stopped us there, and we had to stand there for perhaps about
20 an hour. I then saw six soldiers who took Avid Dzafic [as interpreted],
21 whose hands were tied and his forehead was bloody and cut, and I didn't
22 see him after that.
23 Then they took us up to the hills which we call Gradina. There
24 were soldiers on both sides, and we had to go in the middle in the form
25 of a column. So they took us there and for a while we sat there on some
1 sort of fence; I'm not sure what it was. And then they returned us but
2 via a different route in direction of Sanica this time. And we stopped
3 by the bridge where the check-point was. We spent some time there and
4 then they made us board the bus and took us to the primary school in
5 Gornja Sanica.
6 We then stayed there the whole day. It was a Sunday. No. The
7 whole day on Saturday, and on Sunday I was questioned by -- by an
8 interrogator. That was the first time when I was beaten by a soldier,
9 when I was getting out of the room in which I had been interrogated.
10 Q. Can you very briefly tell the Chamber how long were you detained
11 in this school.
12 A. On Friday morning, and then perhaps we reached the school at 3.00
13 or 4.00 p.m. on that day. And I stayed there until Sunday, in the
14 afternoon, until around 3.00 or 4.00 p.m. I wouldn't know exactly.
15 Q. Were you the only one detained there?
16 A. No. From Biljani there were about 40 of us, and there were also
17 some people from Sanica who had already been there. Perhaps between 90
18 and 100 people from Gornja Sanica.
19 Q. And where in this school were you held?
20 A. It's a Serb-populated village, Gornja Sanica, and it's a small
21 primary school. It had two classrooms, and that was where they
22 imprisoned us. That's where we were.
23 Q. Okay. So you told us you were arrested on the 25th, held there
24 for two nights. So now we're on the 27th, two days later. Were you
25 taken somewhere else after those two days?
1 A. After that, on Sunday, after the questioning, when the
2 interrogator questioned me, he asked me whether I knew which weapons I
3 had and what I handed in, and I told him. Then he asked me if I knew how
4 many automatic weapons there had been in my village, and I told him I
5 didn't know, and he said, "Well stay here and then you'll learn."
6 After that, the bus got there. It had maybe 30 seats. And as
7 for the remaining men, in the morning there was a big truck, and they had
8 to go out and walk the gauntlet. They were beaten, and then they boarded
9 the truck, and they took them somewhere. I didn't know where at the
10 time, but later on I learned that they had taken them to Manjaca. And
11 around 30 of us were transported to the police station in Sanica. These
12 30 included elderly men and seven of us who were hunters and had some
13 kind of hunting weapons.
14 In front of the police building they let the elderly men go home
15 with some sort of documents certifying that they were free to move
16 around, and seven of us were put in one cell, and we remained there until
18 Q. So, first of all, you've told us that you were put into the
19 Sanica Police Station. Who placed you into the police station?
20 A. Well, Commander Tomic was there then. I don't know his first
21 name, but I know that his last name is Tomic.
22 Q. And when you say "Commander Tomic," do you know to which
23 organisation he belonged?
24 A. He was an active-duty policeman before the war. He was a police
25 officer, and probably he was a Serb.
1 Q. Very well. Now, you were about to tell us that it was about
2 dusk. You remained there until dusk. What happened afterwards?
3 A. It may have been around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., and then they got
4 there. Whether it was military or civilian police, I wouldn't know, but
5 they wore camouflage uniforms, and five of them arrived. As we were
6 entering the cell, I was the last one to go in, in the order they lined
7 us up according to our names, and then they said, "Well, whoever got in
8 last should go out first, and he would fuck our Ustasha mothers. When I
9 walked out and got into the corridor, he used some sort of baton and just
10 touched me like this on my neck. I couldn't feel my legs any more. I
11 fell to my knees. And instinctively I put my hands here to defend my
12 head, and then he kicked with his boots against my ribs, and he said,
13 "Look, this one knows how to defend himself in a karate fashion. Fuck
14 his Ustasha mother." And then they brought me to this van which was
15 around 40 metres away to the police station, beating me all along.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And this is how all seven of us were treated. Then they put us
18 into this van, and I could see later on that they had brought us to the
19 police station in Kljuc, once we had arrived in Kljuc. But I didn't know
20 where they were taking us. And inside the van we had to sing Chetnik
21 songs, and they were beating us. I don't know. We call it the
22 machine-gun, the one that has steel bipod. We had to put our hands at
23 the back of our heads like this, and they would beat us on our arms and
24 our backs so that some of my fingers were broken. One of my fingernails
25 had fallen off. And eventually we arrived in Kljuc.
1 Then we had to go up the stairs, because there are some stairs in
2 the police station building. Now I was the last, and everyone else had
3 passed through a gauntlet that was there again, and from both sides they
4 were beating. And as I would step on another step, they would send me
5 down again, and I had to say, "Long live King Peter," and they continued
6 beating me. And then a friend of mine from school, Petar Mihic, helped
7 me. He was a member of the police reserve forces, and he said, "Leave
8 that man be." And then they stopped beating me, and so somehow I managed
9 to get inside the building, and that was when they put us all in a cell.
10 Q. Very well. Now, you told us you arrived at the police station in
11 Kljuc. We're still on the Sunday, the 27th; is that right?
12 A. Yes. That was still Sunday, but already in the evening. Perhaps
13 at 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. or thereabouts.
14 Q. Now, how long was the ride between Gornja Sanica and Kljuc,
15 roughly speaking?
16 A. Approximately half an hour.
17 Q. Okay. Now, you told us you were made to climb up the stairs of
18 the police station. From which entrance are we talking about here?
19 A. I'm talking about the entrance to the police station. There may
20 have been 10 or 15 steps. And the cell was down below on the ground
21 floor of the same building. So next to the entrance there was a
22 stairwell leading down to the basement where the cells were.
23 Q. Very well.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we perhaps pull up Exhibit P928 so we have
25 an idea of where exactly you were taken.
1 Q. Sir, we're just going to show you a picture -- well, show you a
2 picture first.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure how
4 relevant this is about the adjudicated facts that this witness is
5 supposed to testify about. I mean, the entire line of questioning.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I do realise that the adjudicated
7 fact is very specific, but in order for you to understand the conditions
8 in which this witness was, we have to at least understand the context in
9 which he was arrested and how he arrived to the police station. After a
10 few questions, I'll get to the adjudicated fact. And I'm going to finish
11 very shortly.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
14 Q. Sir, do you recognise this building?
15 A. I do. That's the police station in Kljuc, and that's the
17 Q. And this is the staircase you were mentioning?
18 A. [No verbal response]
19 Q. Very well. You told us that when you went up, there were another
20 set of stairs to go down to the cells. This is once you have entered the
21 SJB building?
22 A. Precisely. Just beyond the entrance, there's a flight of stairs
23 immediately following down to the basement where the cell was.
24 Q. Very well. And before taken to the cell, were you registered?
25 A. No, nothing. We were just taken downstairs directly to the cell
1 and locked up. We spent the whole night there. I was all broken up and
2 bloody, and I was very thirsty. A schoolmate of mine happened to be
3 there who was a policeman, and we asked him to at least allow us to go
4 and get some water. Indeed he did, but I was unable to open the tap
5 because my fingers had been broken up -- broken and my hand swollen. He
6 opened the tap for me and I had some water then.
7 That night, I heard moans from another cell. I don't know who
8 the person was, but he kept moaning throughout the night.
9 Q. And were you given any reasons as to your detention in this
10 police station?
11 A. Nothing. They didn't say anything. The next day, around noon,
12 the same van appeared again, and there were three of them inside the van.
13 They took us out to the entrance of the building, at the top of the
14 stairs, where the chief of the police was, Vinko Kondic. He was holding
15 a piece of paper with our names on it in his hands. I was the last one
16 to come out. When everyone else got into the van, he said, "Subasic, we
17 have no criminal file for you, and yet it says here that you were caught
18 in a combat area." And all I said was, "Well, if my house was in the
19 combat area, then that is correct." Then -- they then put us in the van
20 and took us to Manjaca.
21 Q. Very well. How many of you were placed in the van?
22 A. Seven of us arrived at the police station in Kljuc. One person
23 was released the same evening, Sunday evening. He was returned home.
24 And the six of us were then taken to Manjaca.
25 Q. Now, you told us at that Vinko Mandic asked you this question.
1 Did he ask questions to the other detainees?
2 A. Yes. Most of the other people worked in Kljuc, and he knew -- he
3 knew them. He didn't know me because I had worked in Croatia and didn't
4 spend much time in Kljuc and in my village. I wasn't so well known.
5 That is perhaps why he asked me the question.
6 Q. And when you had this encounter with Vinko Kondic, in what
7 condition were you?
8 A. I was all broken up, beaten up, my hands swollen. There was
9 blood, dried-up blood, on my clothes. I was in a pitiful state.
10 Q. And during this entire time you've told us so far, were you
11 provided with any medical help?
12 A. No, nothing. They just took us to the Manjaca camp in that van.
13 There I stayed for six months, also without any medical help.
14 Q. And did Mr. Kondic give you any reasons as to why you were
16 A. He only said that I was captured in a combat area. I don't know
17 what he meant by that.
18 Q. Very well. And you told us that you were detained for six months
19 in Manjaca, and when were you released exactly?
20 A. I left with the last group on the 18th of December in 1992.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. And one last question. When you were escorted
22 from the police station to Manjaca, who was escorting you to Manjaca?
23 A. There were the three policemen or military policemen. They had
24 camouflage uniforms. So there were three out of the original five. They
25 took us up to Manjaca and dropped us off there. We were then taken over
1 by some other people.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Aleksic.
5 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. My name is Aleksandar Aleksic, one of the attorneys for
10 Mr. Zupljanin. I have a few questions for you.
11 First of all, is it correct that you provided a statement to the
12 investigators of this Tribunal on the 13th of June, 2001? Have you
13 provided any statements?
14 A. Yes, I have. I think I provide that statement.
15 Q. When providing that statement, the procedure was that it was read
16 back to you in the Bosnian language, and you stated that, to the best of
17 your recollection, the statement was true and accurate, following which
18 you signed it; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And then a year later or so you arrived in The Hague to testify
21 as a Prosecution witness in the case against Mr. Brdjanin; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That was on the 9th of October, 2002. And before that testimony,
25 you had an interview with a representative of the OTP when you were again
1 shown your 2001 statement. On that date, on the 7th of October, just
2 prior to the testimony, you wished to make certain corrections or make
3 additions to your statements, trying to clarify something.
4 A. I don't remember adding anything.
5 Q. Were you shown that statement before your testimony?
6 A. No. We went through some kind of preparation, proofing, by way
7 of questions.
8 Q. You will agree that your recollection was better then, nine years
9 ago, than it is today. I know that you will never forget some of the
10 things you have gone through, but you probably recall some details better
11 then than now.
12 A. Well, perhaps I only made things a bit shorter now.
13 Q. Sir, in your statement and in the transcript in the Brdjanin
14 case, you were very specific with regards to the five policemen. You
15 said that they were military policemen and that you could tell that
16 because they had white belts. Do you agree with me, or should we go back
17 to the statement and the transcript?
18 A. That is correct, but not all of them had white belts. Some did.
19 Q. Then we'll have to go back to the statement.
20 Sir, another question before that. In your statement of 2001,
21 save for Mr. Tomic whom you designated as the station commander in
22 Sanica, and you said that he was the station commander, and save for your
23 schoolmate Petar Mihic, you didn't designate anyone else as a policeman.
24 In over 20 places, you referred to Serb policemen, Serb military
25 policemen in camouflage uniforms; is that correct?
1 A. Well, I don't know whether they were military policemen or
2 ordinary policemen because they were together. I don't know who was an
3 MP and who was a civilian policemen. In any case, I was in the police
4 station in Sanica and Kljuc, and this was the building of the civilian
5 police. As for whether they were are military or ordinary policemen,
6 that is something I couldn't know.
7 Q. Sir, in your statement as well as today at the beginning of the
8 examination-in-chief, you said that the soldiers picked you up and that
9 the soldiers escorted you to the school as well as that the soldiers were
10 at the school in Sanica. You didn't mention the police at all, even
11 today. Do you agree with me?
12 A. Of course they were soldiers. They wore military camouflage
13 uniforms. They were all in uniform.
14 Q. Sir, it is not in dispute that you spent a night or a few hours
15 in the police station in Sanica on Sunday. It is not in dispute that you
16 spent the night in the SJB building in Kljuc, but no one interrogated you
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. As you said both in the statement and in the Brdjanin case, you
20 were only interrogated on Sunday in the morning in front of the school in
22 A. In Gornja Sanica.
23 Q. So that is correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. That conversation you had with Mr. Kondic in front of the school,
1 -- in front of the SJB building in Kljuc, consisted of a few sentences.
2 He said two, and you uttered one. How long did it take?
3 A. Well, a minute or two.
4 Q. And what you call interrogation the previous day, how long did
5 that take? That was the only time you were interrogated in the course of
6 those two days.
7 A. It lasted for about a quarter of an hour.
8 Q. And following that, how long did you have to wait in the hallway?
9 A. We waited for the bus for a long time before being taken to the
10 police station in Sanica. They left us there, saying that we'll
11 eventually find out what is going to happen.
12 Q. Sir, I will have to read back to you certain parts of your
13 statement to clear some things up. Page 5, where you say -- well, it has
14 to do with you being taken from the police station in Sanica, and at that
15 point in time you didn't know where you were going to be taken. You said
16 that at around 6.00 p.m., a van arrived in front of the police building.
17 Five Serb military policemen arrived in camouflage uniform. "I knew that
18 they were military policemen, as they white belts on."
19 Do you agree with what I read? Is this what you said? And I
20 believe you repeated that in the Brdjanin case when you testified under
22 A. It is possible that I said that, but I wasn't absolutely certain
23 whether they were military policemen or ordinary policemen. I couldn't
24 tell them apart based on the uniform alone.
25 Q. Sir, you served your military term with the JNA?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Do you know what the difference is between a military policeman
3 and a regular soldier, in terms of appearance?
4 A. They had different uniforms and different belts.
5 Q. Do they have anything white on them?
6 A. Yes, white belt.
7 Q. Do they have white shoulder straps?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Apologies. Does the civilian police have white shoulder belts --
10 shoulder straps and belts?
11 A. No, I've never seen that.
12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
13 further questions for this witness.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Much as my colleague, I wanted to go briefly
16 through your statement. You said that two soldiers came to your house in
17 camouflage uniform with red ribbons around their upper arms or armbands;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm waiting for the transcript. When you were taken out in the
21 village, you said that the Serb soldiers gathered some 55 civilians in
22 that location; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Next you say that the whole group was taken away across Palez
25 hill by these Serb soldiers with their guns trained on the group; is that
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Then you say:
4 "We arrived at the bridge at Sanica. We were lined up there, and
5 another Serbian company arrived comprising some 100 soldiers. The newly
6 arrived Serb soldiers wore different camouflage uniforms and some had the
7 former JNA uniforms."
8 Did you say that also?
9 A. I did, and that is correct.
10 Q. Then you describe certain events in the school or in the village
11 of Sanica. You say that you were awaited there by Milan Basara.
12 A. He said himself that he was the commander of that unit, and, yes,
13 that is correct.
14 Q. You say that he said that he would spare your life because he had
15 information that there was no resistance in your village. Is that also
17 A. Yes. That's what he said.
18 Q. You further say that on the following morning, the 26th of June,
19 the soldiers came into the classrooms and began taking men out. Is that
20 also correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You further said, about the interrogation in front of the school,
23 you claimed the following:
24 "I did not know his name, but he said that he was an inspector.
25 He wore a camouflage uniform."
1 Is that also correct?
2 A. That's also correct.
3 Q. You further say:
4 "He set a table and a chair on the football pitch in front of the
5 school building, and two or three soldiers were standing next to him."
6 A. That's also correct.
7 Q. You further say:
8 "We spent the second night in the Sanica school. The next day, a
9 Sunday, more Serb soldiers arrived in front of the school, and a big
10 lorry arrived as well."
11 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, unless you are leading up to
12 challenging the witness on a previous inconsistent statement, is this
13 series of questions particularly illuminating for us?
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just another two
15 quotes, then I will ask the witness a specific question, and I will have
16 no further questions. I only have one single question for the witness.
17 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. My colleague already broached this subject with these five
20 military policemen when white shoulder straps, and later on you also
21 described these five soldiers in the same manner, so let me read out this
23 "I did not know where they were taking us, these five Serb
24 military policemen. On the way there, they were playing Chetnik songs."
25 Do you remember that this is what you stated?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. And all along the way to Manjaca your description is that you
3 were escorted by military policemen.
4 Specifically, in connection with an adjudicated fact, please tell
5 me the following: When did you recall that in front of the SJB building
6 in Kljuc you met and talked with Mr. Vinko Kondic, because in your
7 statement which I looked at, that is not contained. I couldn't find it.
8 A. That was when I stated it.
9 Q. I'm interested in knowing why you didn't say that in 2001.
10 A. I did. Perhaps it wasn't recorded.
11 Q. Well, I'm telling you that it's not.
12 A. I wouldn't know that.
13 Q. All right. Fine.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more
15 questions. Thank you.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just a few brief questions, Your Honours.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
18 Q. Mr. Subasic, the Defence put to you that when you were arrested,
19 you were arrested by soldiers; is that right?
20 A. Soldiers in camouflage uniforms. I couldn't know whether --
21 perhaps they were policemen or soldiers. That's something I didn't know.
22 But in any case, they wore camouflage uniforms.
23 Q. When you were brought to the Sanica Police Station, could you
24 tell the Trial Chamber what was the relation between the army and the
25 police? What was their relationship?
1 A. They worked together. They also manned check-points jointly.
2 They co-operated, the army and the police. They did everything together.
3 It wasn't just the army that was doing it.
4 Q. When you were taken to Kljuc in the van, you told us that in the
5 van soldiers were escorting you, and you were taken to the police station
6 in Kljuc. In the police station in Kljuc, who took you down to the
8 A. The very same soldiers brought us to the staircase, and around
9 were other troops and policemen, the policemen who were then on duty, and
10 they took us down into the cell in the basement.
11 Q. And when the soldiers brought you to the police station, did the
12 policemen offer any resistance?
13 A. No. On the contrary. They co-operated with them. They were
14 working as one and the same team, the army and the police, the civilian
15 police and the other men who wore those camouflage uniforms.
16 Q. And, sir, the last question that Mr. Cvijetic asked you was that
17 in your statement, in 2001, there is no mention of this encounter you had
18 with Mr. Kondic. Is it correct to say that you testified in the Brdjanin
19 case in 2002?
20 A. Yes, I think so. I don't exactly remember, but I think I did.
21 Q. You remember testifying before this Court in 2002?
22 A. Was it in 2002, I think. Am I right?
23 Q. Yes. Yes. And is -- do you recall mentioning this encounter
24 with Mr. Kondic in court in 2002?
25 A. Yes, I think I did mention that.
1 MR. OLMSTED: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, would -- do we know -- does the
3 witness know the whereabouts of Mr. Kondic after the war?
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: You mean when after the war, Your Honours?
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: What became of him?
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Sure.
7 Q. Mr. Subasic, you heard the Judge's question. Do you know what
8 happened to Mr. Kondic after the war? Where he was?
9 A. I have no idea. I don't know now what happened to him.
10 Q. And after you were released from Manjaca, when did you come back
11 to the municipality of Kljuc?
12 A. I returned in 1996, after the war.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Does that clarify the issue, Your Honours, or --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, it's not -- it's not very helpful, but I
15 was wondering would -- would -- perhaps the Prosecution knows. Would
16 Mr. Kondic be eventually available as a witness?
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Your Honours, the Prosecution did attempt
18 to approach Mr. Kondic, but he's in trial right now in Sarajevo, and
19 he's -- I think the trial -- the case -- the trial has been severed,
20 because he's in a mega-trial with three or four accused, and I think his
21 condition is very poor. And it has been -- the case has been severed
22 now. As to what his availability is, we did try to contact them but to
23 no avail.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: A mega-trial about what?
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: About the events in Kljuc.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir, for coming to assist the Tribunal.
3 You are released, and we wish you a safe journey back home.
14 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours, perhaps a flaw in the new
15 procedures for bringing in witnesses. This next witness has sought
16 protective measures. We filed a motion, I believe, on Wednesday for this
17 witness. He's seeking a pseudonym and image distortion. I haven't heard
18 either from the Trial Chamber or the Defence on what the status of that
19 motion is. Perhaps the Trial Chamber wants to address the witness
20 directly. However, that should be done in private session.
21 JUDGE HALL: This is number 226, is it?
22 MR. OLMSTED: That's correct, Your Honour.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 16038-16044 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, I'm wondering whether it's so near --
4 it being so near to the break you would wish to wait until we come back
5 to begin, because it's 10.22.
6 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours. I think there's some logic to
7 that. I don't think we're going to be any time pressure today for this
8 witness, so this would be the time to break.
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, prior to the break, I consulted
12 and got some information about Mr. Kondic. Although he was interviewed
13 by the office in 2002, we attempted to meet him again last year prior to
14 the commencement of the trial. We were informed that he suffered some
15 Parkinson's disease, and they didn't want to meet with the Office of the
16 Prosecutor. And as I informed you, it was actually two weeks ago that
17 there was a motion by the Defence in his case to sever the case. I don't
18 think there's a decision quite yet, but a motion was filed.
19 JUDGE HALL: Could the blinds be raised so that we could take
20 the -- thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE HALL: At the same time, we can leave them down.
23 Twenty minutes.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE HALL: Before you begin, Mr. Olmsted, there is a brief
3 Ruling that the Chamber has to deliver.
4 We're seized of a motion filed late yesterday by the
5 Office of the Prosecution for leave to amend its 65 ter list in respect
6 of a witness, number 24, who was due to appear early next week. We don't
7 require a response from the Defence because, in the Chamber's view, this
8 application is not timely filed, and it would not be in the interests of
9 justice to grant it, and it is therefore denied.
10 Yes, Mr. Olmsted.
11 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examination by Mr. Olmsted:
13 Q. Sir, before the conflict, where did you reside?
14 A. In the village of Hambarine, nearby Prijedor.
15 Q. Were you arrested on the 20th of July, 1992?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. And where were you at the time of your arrest, on the day of your
19 A. I was in the village of Rizvanovici.
20 Q. And is that where you lived at that time?
21 A. No. I lived in Hambarine, but I was expelled because the Serb
22 forces took the village over. First we went to Ljubija, and from there
23 we went to Rizvanovici, to our cousin's house, because we had nothing to
25 Q. And at the time of your arrest, were you a civilian or were you a
1 part of any military formation?
2 A. I was just a civilian.
3 Q. Did you possess any weapons at the time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And can you tell us who arrested you on the 20th of July?
6 A. Members of the Intervention Platoon from Prijedor. The Police
7 Intervention Platoon from Prijedor.
8 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these Intervention Platoon
9 members who were involved in your arrest?
10 A. Mr. Obrenko. Before the war, he was an active-duty policeman
11 whom I knew well. He recognised me. He asked me to face him and asked
12 me what I was doing there. He probably thought that I wasn't a Muslim
13 and that I did not hail from that area.
14 Q. Was he wearing a uniform that day, and, if so, could you describe
16 A. Yes. He wore a blue camouflage uniform. He had a black beret on
17 his head and a white armband.
18 Q. And how many other platoon members were with him?
19 A. I saw at least another two members of the Intervention Platoon
20 who co-ordinated the whole action. The rest of the people were in plain
21 olive-drab uniforms or in the uniforms of the TO, of the same colour.
22 Q. At the time of your arrest, did you see any police vehicles in
23 the vicinity?
24 A. Yes. There was an armoured vehicle with the words "Police"
25 written on the sides which I had seen around town earlier.
1 Q. And what colour was that armoured vehicle?
2 A. It was a blue armoured vehicle, with the white letters saying
4 Q. And when you say you saw it around town previously, what town was
6 A. In Prijedor. Before the conflict broke out and before the
7 incident at Hambarine, one could see it frequently around the area where
8 the SUP and the public security service is located.
9 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I'd like to go into closed session
10 now, because I think my questions will potentially identify him.
11 JUDGE HALL: You mean private session?
12 MR. OLMSTED: I mean private session, I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
14 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. OLMSTED:
12 Q. Sir, were other non-Serbs from Rizvanovici village arrested on
13 the same day as you?
14 A. Yes, there were. All men between 16 and 60, although there were
15 some men who were older than that.
16 Q. And after your arrest, where were you and the other non-Serb men
18 A. We were made to board some buses and stopped briefly before the
19 school in Rizvanovici where other arrested Muslims came on board as well.
20 Then we were taken to Prijedor via Hambarine and down to Tukovo. The bus
21 stopped there. It was stopped by the residence, in front of the house,
22 of Mico Antunovic. They danced and they were rejoicing. They provided
23 drinks for the soldiers, but we were not allowed to look through the
24 windows. We had to lie down on the floor of the bus, or crouch.
25 Q. Were you taken to any detention facilities that day?
1 A. First we were taken to the camp at Keraterm. We were told that
2 it was full and that they should get in touch with Omarska. They were
3 told that if there was no room in Omarska, that we should be killed.
4 Following that, we were taken to Omarska.
5 Q. And how long were you at Omarska camp for?
6 A. Between the 20th of July and the 6th of August.
7 Q. I want to now focus on what happened on the 6th of August, 1992.
8 Can you tell us what happened that morning?
9 A. That morning we were told to go out and line up. We had to
10 kneel. That morning Mr. Mrdja and Bakim appeared, Zoran Babic, that is,
11 in Omarska camp, just before we were being called up. Mrdja then asked
12 out loud whether there was anyone there who knew him. I was in doubt
13 whether to respond. Another guy did, however. Mrdja called him forward,
14 and then Mrdja put his left arm around his shoulder, took him behind the
15 building, and shortly after we could hear three shots. Mrdja returned,
16 laughing wide, and asked again, "Is there anyone else here who knows me?"
17 Q. Did anyone else respond?
18 A. No, no one.
19 Q. You mentioned Zoran Babic and Darko Mrdja. What uniform -- kind
20 of uniforms were they wearing that morning?
21 A. They also had blue camouflage uniforms, the police uniforms.
22 Q. Did you see any police vehicles at the camp that morning?
23 A. Yes. There were armoured vehicles there, the blue armoured
25 MR. OLMSTED: May we go into private session just very briefly,
1 Your Honours.
2 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
22 MR. OLMSTED:
23 Q. Sir, you mentioned that on the morning of the 6th of August you
24 were made to line up somewhere at Omarska camp. Where were you made to
25 line up?
1 A. Yes. On the "pist," [as interpreted] on the clear area.
2 Q. And just to be clear on that, that's the "pista"?
3 A. Yes. That's what we referred to it. It's basically the yard of
4 that building. We called it "pista."
5 Q. And who made you line up that morning?
6 A. Members of the police and the guards commanded by Simo Drljaca
7 and Zeljko Mejakic.
8 Q. Did you see Zeljko Mejakic that morning?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And what was he doing?
11 A. As I said, he co-ordinated the action with Simo Drljaca and other
12 members of the guard.
13 Q. Now you've mentioned Simo Drljaca. Just to clarify, was
14 Mr. Drljaca there that morning?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you mentioned that Darko Mrdja and Zoran Babic were there
17 that morning. Were there other members of the Prijedor Intervention
18 Platoon present?
19 A. I can't say. I did see the two of them, and I'm positive about
20 that. I don't know whether some others were there as well.
21 Q. After this incident which you described where Mrdja took one of
22 the detainees behind a building and you heard the shots fired and
23 returned and spoke to the detainees, can you tell us what happened at
24 that point?
25 A. After a while, they started calling out our names and we had to
1 board some buses.
2 Q. And were there a number of buses present at Omarska camp that
4 A. Yes, there were. They were waiting by the side for us to board.
5 Q. And do you recall which bus did you board?
6 A. I boarded the last bus.
7 Q. And did you recognise these buses from anywhere?
10 Q. Now, at any time before you boarded the bus or while you were on
11 it that day, did any of the police or guards present tell you where you
12 were going?
13 A. No one told us anything. No one said where or why. We just had
14 to get on the buses, put our hands on the head, and crouch the same way
15 we were told to do when we were travelling to Omarska.
16 Q. And how many detainees do you believe -- or do you estimate were
17 on your particular bus?
18 A. The bus was packed. In my view, there were over a hundred people
19 on the bus.
20 Q. And can you describe for us what the conditions were like on the
21 bus that day?
22 A. The conditions were terrible. There were people bleeding, people
23 with dysentery. It was extremely hot. The windows were closed. The
24 doors were closed. And during the transport itself, they even turned the
25 heating on.
1 Q. And when you say "they," who are you referring to?
2 A. The driver and the person guarding us, who was a member of the
4 Q. And either prior to boarding the bus or at any time while you
5 were on the bus were you provided with water or food?
6 A. No, unfortunately not.
7 Q. And you mentioned there's a driver and a guard on your bus. What
8 was the guard doing during the trip?
9 A. During the trip, the guard ordered us to sing Serb national songs
10 or nationalist songs. On one occasion, we stopped in a Serb village and
11 the population stoned us. They opened the door, and the inhabitants
12 entered to treat us -- to mistreat us and beat us.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, are we wandering far afield from the
14 adjudicated fact in question?
15 MR. OLMSTED: No, Your Honour. This is all part of the same
16 transaction. At least that's the position of the Prosecution. This
17 whole bus trip ending up at Manjaca camp and the crimes that occurred
18 outside Manjaca camp is all part of the same crime, as it escalated over
19 time both while they were on the buses, the night before they were
20 allowed into Manjaca camp, and the morning before.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE HALL: We remind you, Mr. Olmsted, of the way in which
23 these witnesses who are being called in respect of the denied adjudicated
24 facts should be examined, and the acceptance of context is not a licence
25 to expand the testimony to repeat evidence that is already before the
2 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours. I understand that, and I'm
3 always taking that into consideration, but this is a criminal incident
4 that we were denied adjudicated fact on, and therefore we need to prove
5 it beyond a reasonable doubt, and that's going to require some
6 corroborative evidence from witnesses. And it is the Prosecution's
7 position that the crime began in Omarska camp, it continued throughout
8 that day and into the next morning, and things got worse and worse for
9 the detainees on these buses, and it resulted in -- in severe beatings
10 and, unfortunately, some deaths. And so we really do need to bring in
11 the whole crime, just like if this was a domestic murder case, you just
12 don't go right to the actual killing. You have to talk about what -- how
13 the victim was treated before that event, and this is all part of that
14 same transaction.
15 JUDGE HALL: Not necessarily, Mr. Olmsted. With respect, your
16 analogy limps seriously. But go ahead. But proceed to the -- get to the
17 point, in other words.
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. You mentioned they let local Serbs onto the bus. Who was letting
20 them onto the bus?
21 A. The gentlemen -- the guards guarding us. They opened the door.
22 Then they started stoning us, entering the bus, beating us until we
23 continued our trip to Manjaca.
24 Q. Do you know of a detainee by the name of Rezak Hukanovic?
25 A. I do. He was taken off the bus, mistreated, and beaten by the
1 Serbs who knew him personally.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, I'm sorry, but it's not -- it's not,
3 as you call it, a whole crime we are dealing with today. It's a very
4 particular incident.
5 MR. OLMSTED: I'll move to -- now to the arrival at the next
7 Q. Sir, where did the buses eventually end up?
8 A. We were brought in front of the camp in Manjaca.
9 Q. And do you recall approximately what time you arrived outside of
10 Manjaca camp?
11 A. It was dusk by that time. It was rather dark.
12 MR. OLMSTED: May we have on the screen 65 ter 3419.66. And this
13 is a photograph that I would like the witness to make some markings on,
14 so perhaps he can be shown how to use the electronic pen.
15 And perhaps to facilitate this we can enlarge it a little bit.
16 There, that's fine.
17 Q. Sir, this is a recent photograph, but do you recognise what this
18 is an aerial photograph of?
19 A. Yes. These are the so-called stables we were -- where we were
20 detained at Manjaca.
21 Q. When the buses arrived outside of Manjaca camp, where did they
22 park? Can you indicate that perhaps with a -- just circling the area.
23 A. It was here.
24 Q. And can you tell us how they parked. Were they parallel to each
25 other, or what kind of formation were they in?
1 A. They were parked one next to the other.
2 Q. And if we --
3 A. In a semicircle.
4 Q. And if you could place a number 1 next to the area you circled
5 just so it's clear on the record.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. Now, when you arrived at Manjaca camp that night, were you
8 allowed out of the buses?
9 A. No. We had to spend the night on the buses.
10 Q. And while you were on the buses, do you know where the guards who
11 escorted you that day were?
12 A. They got out, but we could still hear them close to the buses.
13 They were moving in between the buses, and we concluded that they were
14 still there standing guard. We could hear their conversations.
15 Q. And what were the guards doing during the night?
16 A. During the night, on one occasion, they opened the doors of our
17 bus and they took out Rezak Hukanovic the way they had taken him off the
18 bus in that village, as well as Muharem Nezirovic. They were taken out
19 and beaten in front of the bus. We could hear the beating well, as well
20 as their moans. We could also hear the blows administered by the guards.
21 They were telling Rezak Hukanovic, "Where is your independent radio of
22 Prijedor now?"
23 Q. Can you explain what that means? What was Mr. Hukanovic's
24 association with Prijedor radio?
25 A. Mr. Hukanovic owned a private independent radio station in
1 Prijedor. He was against the war, trying to use irony to show that what
2 was going on was not right, that it wasn't right to start a war.
3 Q. And did Mr. Hukanovic return to the bus that night?
4 A. He did, all beaten up. We could see him come back inside.
5 Q. Was he able to walk on his own?
6 A. No. They dragged him and put him in front, on the seat close to
7 the front door.
8 Q. The persons who took out Mr. Nezirevic and Mr. Hukanovic, did
9 they appear to know these two detainees personally?
10 A. Of course. They recognised them immediately. They were not
11 looking about the bus for him, but they recognised him immediately and
12 then they took him off.
13 Q. Okay. What happened the next morning?
14 A. In the morning, they ordered us to get off the bus and to
15 stand -- to sit in line on the meadow with our heads bent down and our
16 legs folded beneath our bodies.
17 Q. I want you to refer back to 65 ter 3419.66. Can you indicate
18 with a circle where you were made to sit that morning?
19 A. Yes. It was here.
20 Q. And can you mark that with a number 2.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you were outside the buses, did you recognise any police
23 vehicles near the buses?
24 A. Yes. It was the same carrier which was in Omarska and also on
25 the day when they took us prisoners. It was a blue police personnel
1 carrier. It had a police sign written on it.
2 Q. Do you remember how many of them were there? Was there more than
4 A. I think that there were two.
5 Q. Can you place a number 3 where you saw those two APCs.
6 A. It was here.
7 Q. Were there any members of the Prijedor Intervention Platoon
8 present that morning?
9 A. Yes. I saw Mr. Mrdja once again, as well as Babic.
10 Q. And that's Zoran Babic?
11 A. Yes, Zoran Babic, Baki.
12 Q. Were there other platoon members present that you didn't know
13 their names?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you tell us, what did you observe Zoran Babic do that
16 morning while you were sitting in the field?
17 A. Mr. Dedo Crnalic was called. Zoran Babic called his name, and
18 Dedo got up and came up to Babic. They took him to a spot not far away,
19 to a tractor trailer which was parked there. He and Mrdja began hitting
20 him, and they beat him unconscious. Then Mr. -- when Mr. Crnalic was no
21 longer conscious, Babic drew out a knife. He grabbed his head with his
22 left hand and slit his throat, and then he wiped his knife against his
23 right trousers' leg and sheathed the knife once again.
24 Q. Did you personally know Mr. Crnalic?
25 A. Yes. Yes. I knew Mr. Crnalic. He was the owner of the Dedo
1 restaurant. The restaurant was called just like his nickname. He was
2 also the owner of the sports club Berek. Mr. Crnalic had some business
3 relations with my father. My father used to supply food for Crnalic's
4 restaurant, so we knew each other personally.
5 Q. When you first saw Mr. Crnalic that morning before he was called
6 away by Zoran Babic, what kind of physical condition was he in?
7 A. One could see that Mr. Crnalic was in a very poor condition. He
8 could hardly walk and hold his coat in his hand as he was walking towards
9 Babic. So I could see that he was at the end of his tether. He was
10 losing his strength.
11 Q. And after Zoran Babic and Mr. Mrdja killed Mr. Crnalic, what did
12 they do with his body?
13 A. They took his body and dragged him further away so that we could
14 not see it any longer. I mean the prisoners.
15 Q. Did -- did you hear any other detainees being called out that
17 A. Yes. Jasmin Alisic, Jama, and Djuzin were also called out, and I
18 knew them personally as well, but I knew Djuzin only by his nickname. I
19 didn't know his first and last name, but I knew him personally.
20 Q. And can you tell us what happened to these two individuals once
21 they were called out?
22 A. I never saw them again. I believe they were murdered just as
23 Dedo Crnalic.
24 Q. That morning did you hear any gunshots fired close to the
25 vicinity of the buses?
1 A. I can't remember, unfortunately.
2 Q. That morning did you see any regular police officers outside the
3 gates of Manjaca or outside Manjaca camp that morning?
4 A. Yes. Members of the regular active-duty police were also there.
5 Q. And what were these police officers doing?
6 A. One police officer was charged of distributing water. Later on
7 when we were lined up, perhaps in the afternoon, maybe it was around noon
8 or 1.00 p.m. - I'm not sure what time exactly it was - they began
9 distributing water from a canister. And when it was my father's turn to
10 drink water, the canister was already empty. So he received the empty
11 canister. The next time when he brought water, my father asked to drink
12 some water again but the man kicked him in his chest, and my father
13 recognised him as an active-duty policeman from Banja Luka, because my
14 father, practically on a daily basis, went to Banja Luka on business.
15 Q. How old was your father at this time?
16 A. He was 54.
17 Q. And what kind of physical condition was he in?
18 A. He was in a very poor physical condition because he got
19 dysentery, and he hardly managed to survive in Omarska. Eso Sadikovic
20 saved him because he gave him the last injection that he had. Even
21 before the beginning of the war, as my father had told the soldiers, he
22 had had -- he had had three heart attacks, but they never took this into
24 Q. Now, after all this happened that you were able to observe, what
25 were you and other detainees made to do?
1 A. Can you please repeat the question?
2 Q. Well, let me -- let me ask it this way: Were you -- were you and
3 other detainees made to register before you entered the camp?
4 A. Yes. They began to call out our names from their lists which
5 were contained in a sort of notebook or a book with our names, and they
6 called out each one of us by names. We were registered in this manner,
7 and then we were sent to the camp.
8 Q. And this registration, how did it -- how was it conducted? Did
9 they have a table outside the camp?
10 A. Yes. Tables were set up there. We had to approach the table and
11 say our first and last names. And after identification, we were
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, aren't we done with the specific
15 MR. OLMSTED: Almost. I think this will corroborate another
16 witness's testimony. I just want to have him mark on the exhibit --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Corroborate another witness's testimony on this
18 specific incident?
19 MR. OLMSTED: Yes.
20 Q. And, sir, if I can just ask you - and I'm almost through with
21 this - if you mark with a number 4 on the exhibit in front of you,
22 3419.66, where this registration took place.
23 A. It was here. At the entrance to the camp. Number 4.
24 Q. And how long did you remain at Manjaca camp?
25 A. I remained there until mid-December at the Manjaca camp, and then
1 I was deported to Karlovac by the Red Cross.
2 Q. And during your time at Manjaca camp, did any police officers
3 interview -- interview you about what had happened to you and other
4 detainees on the 6th and 7th of August, 1992?
5 A. No.
6 MR. OLMSTED: No further questions, Your Honour.
7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
10 A. Good morning.
11 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry,
12 Mr. Aleksic, Mr. Olmsted seems to be --
13 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, I apologise. I should tender this exhibit
14 into evidence.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1658, Your Honours.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My name is Aleksandar Aleksic. I am one of the counsels on the
19 Defence team of Mr. Stojan Zupljanin. I will have some questions for
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You contacted the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal on
23 several occasions; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You gave two statements, one on -- in 1995, and the other one in
1 2001. On several occasions, they also contacted you by phone; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then last year, I believe - or was it this year? - you
4 testified in Sarajevo in a case, but you were not saying anything about
5 this specific event but about the conditions in Omarska and your stay
6 there; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your statements and the contact with the OTP, you repeated
9 what you said this morning during the examination-in-chief conducted by
10 my learned friend Mr. Olmsted, namely, that on that morning, the
11 7th of August, 1992, you saw police officers taking Mr. Dedo Crnalic off
12 the bus, and you saw that these two men beat him first and that then
13 Mr. Zoran Babic held his head with his left hand and in the right hand I
14 suppose he was holding a knife and slit his throat. Did you see that?
15 A. I saw that, but it wasn't as you described it.
16 Q. Can you then clarify for me how that happened that morning?
17 A. I think that Mr. Dedo Crnalic was already lined up somewhere
18 outside. He was not on the bus as you said. And I do not think that the
19 police officers took him anywhere. He went on his own towards Mr. Babic
20 and Mrdja.
21 Q. I'm sorry, I was not precise.
22 Can you tell me how Mr. Dedo Crnalic was dressed that morning?
23 A. Dedo Crnalic was wearing black trousers, a white shirt with short
24 sleeves, and he was holding a coat in his hand.
25 Q. You had known him well before this, as you told the Prosecutor,
1 and you knew what he looked like; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Aleksic, could I just ask if it is the
4 Defence's position that the killing of Mr. Crnalic did not happen, did
5 not take place at that particular time and in the manner roughly
6 described by the witness? That is the position of the --
7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you please tell me, after that, once Babic had slit his
11 throat, was any of the men who were present there that morning ordered to
12 hit his body by a metal part of a tractor wheel?
13 A. I don't remember that.
14 Q. Sir, with all due respect and taking into account everything you
15 had gone through, I have to tell you that as for this part of your
16 testimony, the way in which Mr. Crnalic lost his life, you are not
17 telling the truth.
18 Mr. Dedo Crnalic did not lose his life in this manner. He was
19 not alive that morning. You did not see him in front of the bus. You
20 could not see him, and you could not see Mr. Babic slitting
21 Mr. Dedo Crnalic's throat.
22 What can you say to that, sir?
23 A. What you are saying is not true.
24 Q. Sir, you are speaking under oath here.
25 A. Yes, I know that.
1 Q. Sir, before you, a Prosecutor witness testifying on Monday in
2 this same courtroom --
3 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I object to this type of question.
4 It's improper to refer to a prior witness's testimony.
5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, I was just waiting for him to complete
6 the question before I asked him if that is what he was doing.
7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I will reformulate the question.
8 Q. Witness, I claim to you that Mr. Dedo Crnalic lost his life
9 because he sustained interior injuries to his ribs because he was beaten
10 up and that when a forensic examination was carried out of his body, that
11 there was no cutting mark on his throat, and you claim that the other
12 gentleman slit his throat.
13 What can you say to that?
14 A. Sir, I believe that I was on the spot rather than you, and I
15 think I know quite well what I saw.
16 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have a
17 look at Exhibit 2D71, page 9. I need page 9 of this document, please.
18 Can we please zoom in on the B/C/S version.
19 Q. Sir, of course, you have not seen this document until now, but I
20 will tell you that this is an examination of bodies which were found in
21 connection with this incident, and what is mentioned here is the body
22 number 2. The conclusion says that the death was violent and occurred
23 immediately after breathing stopped.
24 MR. OLMSTED: I'm going to let him finish his question, but I do
25 have an objection when he's done with it.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Aleksic, could you remind me as to how you link
2 this exhibit to -- the person mentioned in this exhibit to Mr. Crnalic?
3 Am I missing something here?
4 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] It follows from it, sir, not in the
5 same document, but on the following pages of this exhibit Mr. Crnalic is
6 mentioned. Please let me finish.
7 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.
8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. It says here body number 2, and the conclusion says:
10 "Death was violent and occurred immediately after breathing
12 Number 2 says:
13 "Breathing stopped as a result of the bilateral fracture of the
14 ribs and most probably damage to the brain matter."
15 Item 3:
16 "The injuries to the head and chest were caused by heavy blunt
17 force impact."
18 Is that what it says, sir?
19 A. I cannot see that well enough.
20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see page 15 of
21 the same document. We have the right page in B/C/S, and the English
22 version should be page 1D00-6004. Yes. We have it now.
23 Q. Sir, in this document, it is stated that on the 8th of August,
24 that means the day following the events you talked about, finger-prints
25 were taken from the right index fingers of unidentified bodies found in
1 the vicinity of Verbas for the purpose of identification.
2 The last paragraph says:
3 "In our letter number," such and such, "we sent you photocopies
4 of the personal identity cards of Deda Crnalic and Nezir Krak ..."
5 And it also says:
6 "Please give us your opinion and findings for both cases."
7 Is that what it says, sir? Believe me, that's what it says.
8 A. I'm not going to go into that.
9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Please let us see the last page of
10 this document now. I think it's page 20.
11 Q. Sir, have a look at the penultimate paragraph. It is the same in
12 the English and B/C/S versions. It says, and it is a report on
13 finger-print analysis carried out in accordance with the request
14 mentioned on the previous page which I showed you, and this is what it
16 "The questioned print taken from the body found in the
17 Vrbas River marked as number 2," it is the first document that I showed
18 you, "was identical to the control print of the right index finger on the
19 personal identity card of Dedo Crnalic, son of Dervis and Razija ... born
20 on the 15th of October, 1926, in Prijedor."
21 Is that what it says, sir?
22 A. That's what it says. But whether it's correct, that's what we
23 don't know.
24 Q. Sir, on the basis of what I read out to you, it follows that you
25 are not telling the truth.
1 A. I believe that this document is not truthful.
2 JUDGE HALL: I suppose what the witness said before I could
3 complete my observation was inevitable. Mr. Aleksic, that's an argument.
4 MR. ALEKSIC: I agree with you.
5 JUDGE HALL: We see the path that you have laid out through this
6 document, so we have that on the one hand and the witness's testimony on
7 the other.
8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] May I say something? Your Honours,
9 thank you. I have understood. I have no more questions for this
10 witness. Thank you.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I'll be much briefer.
17 Mr. Dedo Crnalic died as a result of the beating he received
18 along the way at one of the stops and was not alive at the moment of the
19 bus's arrival in front of Manjaca.
20 Is what I just said true?
21 A. I don't think so. I'm not the only person who saw it happen at
22 Manjaca. I could bring in a number of witnesses who would say the same
23 thing as I am.
24 Q. What witnesses?
25 A. It is irrelevant now, but if there's anything in dispute, I could
1 tell you. I don't know, though, whether they would like to remain
3 Q. I would like to ask you specifically about Mr. Murselovic. Do
4 you know the owner of Cafe Mursel?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Was he in Manjaca? Did he arrive on the same transport?
7 A. I didn't see him, but I think he did.
8 Q. Very well. I will put forth another assertion. The late
9 Dedo Crnalic was executed by firing squad at Manjaca; is that correct?
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. The interpreters are asking you to repeat your last answer.
14 A. I didn't see that, and I don't know if it's true or not.
15 Q. How come you don't know, when you have a completely different
16 story? Then you know it's not true.
17 A. I stand by what I said. I won't go into what you are talking
18 about. I'm not interested.
19 Q. Well, I'm asking you whether he was executed by firing squad.
20 A. I don't know that. I couldn't see --
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, I -- do I correctly assume that you
22 are not merely trying to provoke an argument with the witness but that
23 this is evidence that you intend to bring at some -- at some point,
24 because my recollection is that this is the first time we're hearing
25 about this assertion. As I said, if it's something you intend to lead
1 evidence on positively later, but if at this point you're just throwing
2 out theories, I don't know how useful that is, or correct, actually.
3 MR. OLMSTED: And, Your Honours, there seem to be a
4 disconjunction between the two Defence counsel here, because at one point
5 Defence counsel is claiming that this witness had only been beaten and
6 that they have an exhumation report to that effect, and now this Defence
7 counsel is arguing that he was shot. So --
8 JUDGE HALL: You needn't concern yourself with that aspect,
9 Mr. Olmsted. That's a matter for the -- they would argue this at the end
10 of the day.
11 But, Mr. Cvijetic, I return to the admissibility of this line of
12 questions if you, in fact, are not going to be in a position to
13 positively lead evidence in support of this.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are well in a
15 position to do that, but the Prosecution and the Defence had a witness
16 here testifying to that effect, and we had two statements I referred to
17 that were used with another witness. We now have a third version of
18 Mr. Crnalic's death, and I'm now simply putting forth to this witness the
19 two previous stories of his death that we have already heard before this
20 Chamber, if you recall.
21 If needed, I can tell you what evidence, specifically, I have in
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, can we have the pseudonym of the
24 witness you're referring to?
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] He testified publicly. It was not
1 a protected witness. I can state his first and last name.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I just want the pseudonym, please.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] ST-227.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Did he -- did he testify that
5 Mr. Crnalic was executed by a firing squad?
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that witness was
7 shown his statement he provided to the court in Sanski Most as part of
8 the proceedings undertaken to declare Mr. Dedo Crnalic officially dead,
9 and that was the version that witness offered to the Court. We faced him
10 with that document.
11 In front of you he said that he had been beaten and that by the
12 time he arrived in front of Manjaca he had been dead.
13 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, this is misstating the evidence of
14 the prior witness, and I don't think the Defence counsel should go any
15 further on that. There was a document shown to a prior witness that
16 suggested that this particular victim was shot, and that witness clearly
17 said that he never made that -- such a statement.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's right.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm merely trying to
20 verify which of the three versions is correct. Otherwise, I have no
21 further questions of this witness.
22 JUDGE HALL: Re-examination?
23 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honour. Just one question.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours. It will be -- it will be very
1 quickly, the question I have.
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thanks.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:
4 Q. Sir, you mentioned that when you saw Mr. Crnalic that morning
5 before he was called away by Babic and Mrdja, he appeared in very poor
6 condition, could hardly walk. Can you go into a little more detail about
7 that? Did it appear that he had been recently beaten?
8 A. Yes, he did. That's what he looked like. He was all broken up.
9 MR. OLMSTED: No further questions, Your Honour.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, you told us that when -- at the
12 killing of Mr. Crnalic there were active police officers outside the gate
13 present; right? That's what you said to us.
14 A. They were present, but the murder was carried out by the members
15 of the Intervention Platoon, Mr. Mrdja and Mr. Babic.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did the active police officers witness this
18 A. They did.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did they react in any way?
20 A. No. No one dared disturb the two in the act. I think they were
21 the ones who had the final say as some sort of heroes or leaders.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. One last question. You -- well, we have
23 go into private session for just one moment, please.
24 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE HALL: Sir, we thank you for your willingness to relive
17 these horrific experiences and to assist the Tribunal. You are now
18 released, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home.
19 The usher will escort you from the courtroom.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, does the Prosecution have further
23 witnesses it intends to lead today?
24 MR. OLMSTED: Unfortunately, no, Your Honours. The witnesses
25 that we had originally scheduled to follow this witness we've rescheduled
1 them for Monday because earlier this week we did not believe, given the
2 amount of cross-examination anticipated, that they would have testified
3 this week.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. In that case, we now take the
5 adjournment to -- and I believe we are back in this courtroom, and it's
6 Monday morning. I trust everyone has a safe weekend. Thank you.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.13 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day
9 of October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.