1 Wednesday, 20 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.18 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
12 Crispian Smith and Selma Sakic for the Prosecution this morning.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
14 behalf of Mr. Stanisic's Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic,
15 Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
17 Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and Jason Antley, appearing for
18 Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 We're grateful to the parties for their indulgence in terms of
21 the late start this morning the reasons for which will become patent in a
22 moment, but that will be in private session. Is there any matter to be
23 dealt with in open session before we --
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are two matters. One which will
25 have to be dealt with in private, because it relates to the witness, and
1 the second matter, however, is one which we're delighted to be able to
2 tell Your Honours about.
3 After discussions with the Defence, you will recall we asked for
4 a witness summons for a particular witness who was going to cover
5 adjudicated fact 928. That was Witness 250. And I'm delighted to say
6 that both Defence teams will stipulate to that adjudicated fact as
7 originally written without the crossings out. So it will read, perhaps
8 just for the record:
9 "Enver Burnic, a Bosnian Muslim former policeman, was taken
10 outside the Betonirka factory garages on St. Vitez Day, 28th of June,"
11 should be 1992, "by shift commander Martic, a Bosnian Serb policeman who
12 was drunk, and by two policemen and beaten. He was told at the time that
13 a bullet was too costly a way for him to die."
14 So that is the full adjudicated fact which the Defence will
15 stipulate to.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, do we understand now that now that is
17 an agreed fact?
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. By stipulation I mean -- that's
19 actually an American term, but I would put it as an agreed fact.
20 So that's the first [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: I see Mr. Zecevic [sic] nodding --
22 MS. KORNER: Yes.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- so it is. Thank you.
24 MS. KORNER: And Mr. Krgovic is also nodding. I --
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence has
1 been trying all this time to find a way to save Their Honours time by
2 agreeing on facts. Therefore, we have stipulated to this fact together
3 with the Prosecution. We will continue work on this, but it will take a
5 It is not just the matter of looking at facts and the underlying
6 evidence. Rather, since these are facts from a different case, we have
7 to look into what other witnesses testified to on these same events, and
8 that's why it makes it difficult for us to stipulate to certain facts
9 right away. We want to make sure that the event really played out the
10 way it is described in the adjudicated facts.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: We appreciate the effort, Mr. Krgovic.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, a second agreed fact -- oh, sorry.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL: So the position --
15 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, before we -- let's finish dealing with this
17 matter. The position at bottom is that the subpoena -- the application
18 for subpoena is withdrawn in respect of 250.
19 MS. KORNER: Exactly.
20 JUDGE HALL: So we now have that on the record. Thank you.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the second agreed fact is 564. We
22 filed a motion on the 8th of October to add Witness ST-016 to cover that
23 fact. That is also now going to be an agreed fact and will read as
25 "On 10th of July, 1992, Bosnian Serb special police and soldiers
1 in JNA uniforms rounded up Bosnian Muslim men and women from the Biljani
2 hamlets at the local school building."
3 And that's now also an agreed fact by both parties. So, again,
4 our application for -- to add ST-016 is withdrawn. And if perhaps both
5 Defence parties again could confirm that this is now agreed.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I can confirm
7 this. We had contacts with the Prosecution yesterday about this
8 adjudicated fact.
9 Another matter. In order for us to review all the adjudicated
10 facts and the underlying documentation, unless we manage to do it after
11 this witness's testimony, we may require one or two working days next
12 week to review these facts. I will be able to give you a definite
13 position tomorrow. These two days would help save us at least 15 to
14 20 court days in general. So this afternoon we will look into the
15 various facts and see how much time we need to review them, and this will
16 substantially reduce the time of testimony required for these witnesses.
17 MS. KORNER: Mr. Krgovic is asking for two days off, in other
18 words, not to call a witness. It's a bit late because we've got
19 witnesses lined up and we really can't unwind them. So, you know, even
20 if it takes three afternoons or whatever, we'd still prefer -- in any
21 event it is only a four-day week next week because of the holiday on
23 So, I'm sorry, I mean as much as we'd like to get some agreement,
24 we do have witnesses lined up for the week.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could get a list of these
1 witnesses and deal with them first, and then -- or, rather, focus on
2 those who would be coming up later on so we have time enough to decide
3 not to call them.
4 Again, I repeat, these are thousands, upon thousands of pages of
5 testimony of these witnesses in other cases. We are simple physically
6 unable to go through them all and analyse them thoroughly. We do have a
7 duty toward our clients to defend them appropriately wherever possible.
8 Matters that are quite obvious and evident can be agreed to right away.
9 Others have to be looked into.
10 And let me just add, these adjudicated facts we've stipulated to
11 are the results of precisely such work. I will be able to come up with a
12 full proposal next week because I don't want to make promises I will not
13 be able to keep.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, as I said, Mr. Krgovic's got Monday
15 anyhow. And the weekend.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, but I nevertheless think that it
17 would be helpful if we could be provided, and the Defence, of course,
18 with the list of witnesses for next week and the week thereafter. Some
19 sort of planning possible.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, we can certainly do that. We
21 know exactly who is coming next week. I'm not entirely sure about the
22 week after, but I will check that with Ms. Pidwell.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HALL: I had indicated when we started that the Judges' own
1 work in the 15 minutes before we took the Bench, we would have been
2 reporting on but having regard to what counsel have indicated, we may or
3 may not have to speak to what we had -- the path that we were suggesting
4 and we're going to look at it again in the course of today, and, if
5 necessary, we will deal with this later.
6 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honours, before the witness comes in, can
7 we go into private session, in any event.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 16245-16247 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, sir. Before Mr. Krgovic
17 resumes his cross-examination, I remind you you're still on your oath.
18 You may be seated.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 WITNESS: ST-197 [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Yesterday we left off discussing the events surrounding
1 Kotor Varos. I won't be using maps now.
2 Can you tell me, the information you had in June of 1992, the
3 intelligence you had, did it indicate that the Muslim/Croat forces had
4 practically Kotor Varos under their control in some sort of an
6 A. The intelligence available to me at the time - and, of course, I
7 don't have the relevant documents with me here - indicated that the
8 municipality of Kotor Varos was a conglomerate of localities permeated by
9 tensions which had existed from before. The fact of the matter is that
10 there were all sorts of political colours represented, and, by the same
11 token, military formations in the various villages. That's why one could
12 say that even the urban core of Kotor Varos found itself in some sort of
13 an encirclement, in respect of these rural areas.
14 Q. You will have been aware of the fact that before the clashes in
15 Kotor Varos broke out, these formations would block roads, either in the
16 direction of Teslic or in the direction of Banja Luka.
6 These were stories I heard, nothing that I or my unit saw. I
7 suppose other witnesses could give you more thorough information on this.
8 Q. In answer to the Prosecutor's question in September earlier this
9 year, you recognised Slobodan Dubocanin in a piece of footage shown to
10 you by the Prosecutor, if you remember. If I remember correctly,
11 Slobodan Dubocanin wore a uniform that was not your typical JNA or
12 VRS uniform but it bore the insignia of armoured mechanised units, did it
14 A. There was a still where I recognised Slobodan Dubocanin. I met
15 him on a couple of occasions, and he introduced himself to me.
16 In the footage, I was not able to see any insignia of his
17 officer's rank or the armoured mechanised units. However, I stated, and
18 I stand by that, that sometime in September or October he came to see me
19 because he wanted to report to the brigade in Knezevo. At that time he
20 had the rank of a lieutenant, and he also had a tank on his patch, which
21 stood, of course, for the armoured mechanised units. That was when I saw
22 his insignia, not before.
23 Q. Before that, you did not pay particular attention to that, nor
24 did you see him that often, to be able to recognise the insignia; is that
1 A. Yes. I didn't pay attention to it.
2 Q. The Prosecution asked you about a special unit, although it was
3 not within your area of responsibility, as you rightly put. Do you know
4 that, in fact, there were two types of special units in Kotor Varos;
5 namely, one, from the CSB Banja Luka; and the other which was under the
6 direct command of Mr. Stevilovic and directly subordinated to
7 General Talic?
8 A. This is the first time I'm hearing this. I know that the unit --
9 I know about the unit from the CSB of Banja Luka. Milan Stevilovic was a
10 colonel, chief of security of what was by then already the
11 1st Krajina Corps. I don't know that he had a unit of his own. I had
12 never heard anything like this before.
13 MS. KORNER: It's been put as though there's been evidence to
14 this effect. And unless I'm very much mistaken, I don't believe there
15 has been any evidence to this effect.
16 I'm sorry, can I just repeat, I do -- it's the form of the
17 question again. It shouldn't be put as though this is an established
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will recall that
20 there was evidence of this type before the Chamber, and I just wanted to
21 know if the witness was aware of this. I don't want to name the witness
22 who testified on this.
23 JUDGE HALL: Well, inasmuch as the recollection of counsel differ
24 on this point, I -- I'll allow Mr. Krgovic to proceed. But, of course,
25 you remember to phrase the question in such a way that you aren't telling
1 the witness on the stand what another witness has said.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] My question for the witness was
3 whether he was aware of it. I didn't suggest that there was. And now
4 since the Prosecutor objected to the form of the question, I wanted to
5 say that there was a witness who testified to this effect.
6 Q. Sir, was Colonel Stevilovic present at the time - that's to say,
7 in the summertime - in Kotor Varos; and was he killed in one of the
8 ambushes in the area?
9 A. Colonel Stevilovic came to the area two or three times. I can't
10 be sure. It's been a long time. He definitely did come, and I suppose
11 it was his call of duty and as ordered by his superior, General Talic.
12 My understanding was that he was to look into the situation in
13 general, in terms of security, and, on one occasion, he talked to a group
14 of people in order to ascertain what the situation was like in the
15 village of Vecici. The objective was to find a solution once and for all
16 to reduce tensions. From what I was able to see, his efforts were
17 directed at easing tensions and making sure that people were able to live
18 together. So he was supposed to intermediate between the leading
19 structures in the village of Vecici and the authorities in Banja Luka.
20 So, yes, Colonel Stevilovic was there two or three times, from
21 what I knew. Yes, in Kotor Varos.
22 Q. Colonel Stevilovic was chief of security of the
23 1st Krajina Corps; is that right? Is my understanding correct?
24 A. Yes. He was chief of security in the 1st Krajina Corps. And up
25 the chain of command, he was directly subordinated to the corps
2 Q. After his death, Colonel Bogojevic replaced him; is that right?
3 A. Yes. After the assassination of Colonel Stevilovic,
4 Stevo Bogojevic replaced him.
5 Q. At the time, in July, shortly after the assassination of
6 Mr. Stevilovic, Stipo Maric, aka Sprzo, was killed. I think there was a
7 name you mentioned yesterday as well.
8 A. Well, yes. There was an action with members of the MUP when the
9 name by the nickname of Sprzo was killed. It was a group of people - I
10 don't know how many; I didn't look into that - that was when I heard that
11 Stipe Maric, aka Sprzo, was killed.
12 Q. At any rate, he was definitely unable to take part in the
13 negotiations about disarming in Vecici in September and October later
14 that year? And I'm referring to Maric.
15 A. Of course. A dead man cannot engage in negotiations.
16 Q. Let me show you a document.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show to the witness
19 Q. Sir, this is a report drafted by a MUP officer, MUP of Republika
20 Srpska, who toured or visited the CSB in the area and who's talking about
21 the special detachment and the meeting.
22 You are certainly aware that at certain points the units of this
23 police special detachment had been put at the disposal at the
24 1st Krajina Corps under the direct command of General Talic.
25 Would you please take a look at the last sentence that we can see
1 on this page. Here it is stated that the police special detachment, its
2 strength being 100 members, is placed under the command of General Talic
3 in the 1st Krajina Corps, as of 10th of August, 1992.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the following
5 page of the document in the B/C/S put up on the screen.
6 Q. We see here that the handover of the unit will be carried out on
7 the 10th of August in Kotor Varos where the unit is deployed.
8 The handover will be attended by Djuro Bulic, SJB sector chief on
9 behalf of the CSB, and by Colonel Bogojevic, military security chief on
10 behalf of the 1st Krajina Corps.
11 Sir, were you aware then that the 1st Krajina Corps or, rather,
12 Colonel Bogojevic took up the authority and command over this unit that
13 they were integrated into the VRS, or, rather, into the 1st Krajina
15 A. I didn't know about that. I did not attend the handover. I see
16 the document for the first time.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In relation to Mr. Dubocanin, I
18 would like to ask 2D56 to be put up on the screen for the witness.
19 Could we please zoom in the Serbian version.
20 Q. This is Slobodan Dubocanin's file, his personnel file.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we please see page 2 of
22 the document.
23 Q. In the right segment of the document, we can see what his status
24 was. Lieutenant, and then captain, as of 11 -- no, 20th of November,
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, all this has been in open session.
15 Mr. Krgovic, all this is in open, and the answers ...
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tried to be careful
17 in my questions. I spoke about the witness just being part of a brigade.
18 I didn't mention what his function was or rank. Maybe the answers of the
19 witness would identify him. Maybe it would be good to have this
20 redacted. But I think my questions were such that it was not possible to
21 identify the witness. We never mentioned his position or anything else.
22 A brigade has 2.000 troops so ...
23 I believe that this line of questioning cannot jeopardise the
24 identity of the witness, but if you feel it should be done, we can redact
1 JUDGE HALL: There was earlier on a question that was -- which
2 the Court Officer was alert to and that was redacted. But I agree with
3 Mr. Krgovic. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think that any of the
4 recent questions would have identified the witness. Unless, of course,
5 Ms. Korner, your concern was about the personal records of somebody -- of
6 the individual who the subject of the present line of questions.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
11 Yes, so we'd redact that line.
12 MS. KORNER: And all of the discussion that we've now had,
13 Your Honour, yes.
14 JUDGE HALL: Of course.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Answering to the Prosecutor's questions, you were shown also a
17 series of documents about your presence at the meetings of the
18 Crisis Staff where Mr. Djokanovic was also mentioned. Outside of the
19 sessions or meetings, did you have an opportunity, maybe at some picnic
20 or during a lunch somewhere out in the open, did you have an opportunity
21 to spent some time with Mr. Djokanovic?
22 A. I met Mr. Djokanovic on several occasions. Mr. Djokanovic also
23 came to visit troops in Slavonia also, because some of the troops from
24 the 122nd Brigade were from the Kotor Varos municipality. And, yes,
25 therefore, I did meet with him on two or three occasions when he came to
1 visit us in Slavonia. And not only him. Some other municipal presidents
2 as well. It was an established practice that people from local
3 authorities, primarily presidents of municipalities and the municipality
4 Executive Boards, as it was called at the time, that they would come and
5 tour the units.
6 Now, whether I've ran into him at some picnic -- well, I don't
7 know. It was a time of war, not a time of picnics. We may have met
8 somewhere, but I cannot tell you when or where. It may have happened
9 that we have had lunch and that he came along. I really don't remember.
10 I may have.
11 Q. Then you probably wouldn't remember whether you attended a lunch
12 where Mr. Stojan Zupljanin was present as well as Mr. Slobodan Zupljanin
13 and Mr. Djokanovic?
14 A. I don't remember anything of the sort. It may have happened but
15 it was 18 years ago. I have difficulty sometimes remembering what
16 happened yesterday, let alone 18 years ago.
17 Q. I guess then you don't remember a conversation between
18 Mr. Djokanovic and Mr. Zupljanin about events in Kotor Varos.
19 A. No, I don't remember that.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for not switching on my
23 Q. The OTP asked you a series of questions related to the town
24 defence command. They showed you a document. These were the minutes of
25 a Crisis Staff meeting that was held in Kotor Varos where there's mention
1 of the town defence command. Although that was not part of your area of
2 responsibility, were you familiar with the fact that during a period
3 because of the war, commands of the town defence was formed in the spirit
4 of the JNA regulations?
5 A. I apologise in advance, but I will have to give you a longer
6 answer because it is obvious that may have misunderstood this phenomena
7 of town defences and what transpired in the conversations with the OTP.
8 In peacetime, JNA had town defence commands -- or, rather, city
9 defence commands that referred only to cities. Sometimes they were
10 called commands of the Military District or garrisons and for a while
11 they were called city defence commands, but that applied to Belgrade,
12 Zagreb, Ljubljana, Sarajevo and such garrisons which had more
13 comprehensive civilian and military functions. So that is one phenomena,
14 and I'm explaining the regulations.
15 Another phenomenon of the town defences is something that you can
16 find in the tactical and defence rule-books where there is description of
17 town defences when towns are in the zone of defence of a tactical combat
19 The third thing, and that was presented to me in a document
20 signed by General Pujic in late 1991 about establishment of civilian
21 affairs organs that were to take up carrying out some activities and also
22 be active in town defence duties within former SFRY, and I answered that
23 this document never took effect, because one cannot talk about crisis
24 areas within SFRY at a stage where two republics have already seceded
25 from it.
1 I was also shown a document where either in Gornji or Donji Vakuf
2 the command of the 19th Brigade had established a town defence command,
3 and the document bore the stamp of the 19th Partisan Division or, rather,
4 Brigade. That was a JNA brigade. And in my response, I said it was an
5 improvisation because such a stamp was not legal anymore.
6 I was shown this document by the War Presidency of Kotor Varos
7 where one can see that town defence command was established in
8 Kotor Varos, and whereby Mane Tepic was appointed either a commander or
9 some kind of officer - I don't have the document in front of me - I have
10 heard of that only when I was reading this document. I don't know that
11 Mane Tepic was the commander of the town defence and why would he be,
12 when the town included the command of the 1st Kotor Varos Light Infantry
13 Brigade? Because, according to rules of combat for the brigade, the
14 commander of a military unit where the town is is automatically commander
15 of the town defence. But I'm talking about defence in the tactical
16 sense, not defence as an organ or an institution.
17 So, yes, I've seen that in this document, but I really don't know
18 that Mane Tepic was or was not commander of any defence, for how long,
19 what his duties may have been. What I do know is that before the
20 conflict broke out, Mane Tepic was the commander of the municipal
21 Territorial Defence Staff. That's all I can say.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 document 1510 [as interpreted]. It's a 65 ter document. It's number 34
24 in the OTP binder.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I said 65 ter 10510.
2 Can we please zoom in the Serbian version?
3 This is a document, it's an excerpt of the minutes from the
4 Crisis Staff meeting of 28th of July, 1992.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, it's not very legible.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In item number 1 -- and yes, can we
7 please move to private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 16261 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry to delay the witness coming
25 back in again, but I think all sides, in particular, the Defence for
1 Mr. Zupljanin, would welcome Your Honours' input on timings for the next
3 Your Honours, at present, we have three witnesses next week to
4 deal with adjudicated facts. The fourth witness no longer applies,
5 because we've just had the -- the agreed fact that Witness 250 was going
6 to testify to agreed.
7 The following week, all of the witnesses are to do with
8 adjudicated facts. So our suggestion would be, at present, we can fill
9 next Friday by bringing up another witness. But it occurred to us that
10 it may help if we had not only the Monday off, but the Tuesday off, and
11 by then we -- but only on the basis that the Defence teams of whom there
12 are numerous members, as Your Honours will have seen, can get to grips
13 with the adjudicated facts and tell us, finally, which ones they are
14 prepared now to agree.
15 So instead of bringing up a witness to fill Tuesday to Friday, we
16 would simply move back the three witnesses, one of them, ST-225, is
17 actually quite lengthy because it is an all-encompassing adjudicated fact
18 to do with the events in Banja Luka. So we've asked for three hours
19 in-chief for him.
20 So that's our suggestion. Now, I don't know whether that finds
21 favours with Your Honours, or we were in the middle of a rather animated
22 and inconclusive discussion about this, but that's our suggestion because
23 we really need to know whether any of the adjudicated-fact witnesses who
24 are coming the week of the 1st of November can be dispensed with. And
25 I'm raising it now so that we can try and get an answer before the end of
1 today's session.
2 Your Honours, sorry, there's one other matter. I'm so sorry to
3 interrupt, but, obviously, from the point of view of planning, we need to
4 have a ruling as soon as possible from Your Honours about the witnesses
5 we've applied to call under the 92 bis procedure but which -- to which
6 the Defence have objected. Because if Your Honours rule that they must
7 come, then they will be added in as soon as possible.
8 JUDGE HALL: I suppose I can say that ruling is imminent.
9 Is the -- Ms. Korner's first point about the efficient use of
10 next week, are there any observations which the Defence would wish to
11 add; or is this something that your, quote/unquote, animated discussions
12 would continue and we would probably, at the beginning of the next
13 session, get a clearer idea as to where you stand?
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We have ongoing
15 discussions with the Prosecution. Before taking a final decision, we,
16 the Defence teams, need to meet up and take up a joint position.
17 Now I have to focus on my cross-examination, but over the next
18 break, I will check and go through all the witnesses that Ms. Korner has
19 just referred to so that we can give you our position at the end of work
21 JUDGE HALL: Of course, today --
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Today being Wednesday, if the next break is --
24 puts too much pressure on you, we could be informed in the usual manner
25 in the course of -- by the -- later in the afternoon.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I don't want to be difficult
2 about this, but we have to start making arrangements and in particular if
3 we're going fill the Friday slot, because the -- the Defence say that --
4 that -- that they cannot give us the definitive answer, then we need to
5 get that in train this afternoon.
6 So, if necessary, Your Honours could perhaps take, instead of
7 20 minutes, 25 minutes to allow the Defence -- it is really not a
8 difficult problem, this, whether they want the extra day and will come
9 with a final decision, or don't. It's as simple a question as that.
10 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HALL: The -- we appreciate Ms. Korner's concern about the
13 urgency of this matter, but we -- we think that the -- if necessary, that
14 the Defence should be allowed the extra few hours to deal with this at a
15 point later than the -- during the final session. But if at all
16 possible, we would wish to be in a position to rule on this matter during
17 the third session today.
18 Reverting to the matter with which we opened this morning, the
19 Chamber has an observation to make, and that is as follows.
20 The Trial Chamber welcomes the ongoing discussions between the
21 parties to try to reach agreement as to stipulations. The positive
22 effect that these discussions can have is amply demonstrated by the
23 withdrawal of the two applications this morning. The Trial Chamber
24 reminds the parties that it has no formal notification of the nature or
25 scope of any of the stipulations already agreed or under discussion.
1 This has raised concerns about the impact that they may have on other
2 aspects of the case, in particular, the five recently filed motions for
3 admission of evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis and quater.
4 The Trial Chamber therefore directs the parties, first, to file
5 with the Chamber, no later than Friday of this week, a notice setting out
6 in full the stipulations that have already been reached, for example, in
7 relation to events in Visegrad. Second, the Trial Chamber informs the
8 parties that it will not address those Rule 92 bis and quater
9 applications in respect of which the Defence has raised issues relating
10 to possible stipulations while those discussions are still ongoing.
11 In the interim, the Prosecution is directed to schedule the
12 affected Rule 92 bis witnesses as viva voce witnesses.
13 MS. KORNER: I hear what Your Honours say on this matter.
14 In fact, I'm rising to my feet not because of that but because of
15 something that I raised with Mr. Krgovic; namely, when he put to the
16 witness that there was a special unit in Kotor Varos under the command of
17 Colonel Stevilovic, totally separate from the police special unit, in the
18 interim I asked Mr. Krgovic, because, as I said, I could not recall any
19 such evidence being given in the case, where that evidence came from, he
20 stated to me that it came from a witness, I cannot remember his number
21 now but he gave me the name, and we've checked that and there is no such
23 Now, Your Honour, I'm raising this because it's not the first
24 time, and I know how difficult it is when one is on one's feet to give
25 accurate quotation, that assertions are being made to a witness as though
1 this was evidence in the case. And, as I say, I would remind -- I would
2 ask Your Honours to remind Mr. Krgovic that the form of the question is
3 important because we've seen before witnesses take it for granted that
4 what counsel says is a fact, is a fact and may agree to it. And so I --
5 I would ask that the questions are phrased properly as questions and not
6 as assertions of fact.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I don't know that we need
8 add anything. It is ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: A question should never be promised -- premised on
11 facts not in evidence or, I suppose, by extension, in respect of which
12 the party raising it is in no position to lead evidence at some future
13 point. So parties should remember that.
14 Could we have the blinds down so the witness may be escorted back
15 to the stand.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, I may have explained to you on a
18 previous occasion that the nature of a trial involves not only receiving
19 testimony from a witness but often entails having to deal with procedural
20 issues. So to the extent that you were inconvenienced by being kept
21 waiting for longer than you expected is one of those unavoidable
22 incidents of a trial.
23 Mr. Krgovic, you may continue.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Sir, we broke off while we were discussing the town defence
1 command. You said that, if I understood you correctly, the OTP had shown
2 you a document coming from the 19th Partisan Brigade.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2D02-1954.
4 Q. Is this the document you were shown by the Prosecution?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This order by the commander, we can see that the town of
7 Donji Vakuf command was being established, consisting of, and we see who
8 were in the command. Jovetic Milan, reserve captain. And then
9 Bosko Savkovic, this is what I am interested in, who has been
10 conscripted, is appointed chief of the Donji Vakuf public security
11 station. Also a council of the Donji Vakuf municipality is also being
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following
14 page of the document presented on the screen.
15 Q. Under 3, or in item 3 of this order, the organs for state
16 administration are being formed, including the judiciary, the education
17 staff, then economic organs.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following
19 page of the document.
20 Q. We can see organs for public utilities are formed for special
21 functions and information of the population.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we now please have the
23 last page of the document on the screen.
24 Q. Item 4, the commander, this lieutenant-colonel, appoints the
25 president and judge of the municipal misdemeanour court,
1 Mr. Miodrag Jandric.
2 And 5, he appoints for the commander of the Donji Vakuf public
3 security station, I think the proper name is Sekula Sisic, who is captain
4 first class, and both his deputy and his assistant.
5 In my understanding of this order, the commander of this military
6 unit appoints or puts under control all elements of the authorities in
7 this municipality. Do you agree with me?
8 A. I don't know this unit commander. I wouldn't have been such a
9 unit commander. It's obvious that he has taken up this right that is not
10 his. I don't know on the basis of what had this gentleman drafted the
12 Also, the stamp verifying the document, authorising the document,
13 is illegal, because on the 12th of May, VRS was established, and stamps
14 of the VRS were the only legitimate stamps.
15 We can see here that the stamp of the command of the
16 19th Partisan Brigade, and the SFRY coat of arms. I cannot comment this
17 document because this seems like an improvisation to me. I wouldn't have
18 drafted it this way, that's for sure.
19 Q. But you will agree with me that this order, at least based on
20 what's in the document, this order has -- has its effect of establishing
21 the entire authorities of the municipality.
22 A. I cannot comment on this document. I haven't drafted it. I
23 haven't ordered anyone to draft it. During the proofing when I was shown
24 this document, there was a confusion about the term "Vakuf." There was
25 confusion between Skender Vakuf and Donji Vakuf. The two towns are
1 150 kilometres away from each other. But, no, I cannot comment on this
3 Q. Let us --
4 MS. KORNER: Just for one moment -- would Your Honours hear me
5 for one moment.
6 Your Honours, I'm a little bit concerned about this question of
7 being shown things by proofing which either not been shown or shown them.
8 This document was not shown to this witness during any proofing. It is
9 not part of any of our documents. It may have been shown to him at an
10 earlier stage, when he was interviewed. But it certainly wasn't shown to
11 him during proofing.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I only asked this witness on the
13 basis of his claim that he was shown the document during his contacts
14 with the Prosecution. I have no position on that. I heard him say that,
15 and I spoke about the document in such a way.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
18 Q. You spoke about discussions relating to disarmament of the Muslim
19 formations in Vecici on their departure from the area, after they have
20 done that and so on. Have the Muslim and Croat formations eventually
21 handed over their weapons and left the area?
9 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you about a telegram relating to events
10 that took place at Koricanske Stijene.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P609 put up on
12 the screen.
13 I apologise, I was looking for a different document, it seems.
14 Just a moment, Your Honours, please.
15 When the witness was discussing the telegram, I noted down this
16 number, 609, but it seems that it's a different document that I'm looking
17 for. Just a moment.
13 I sent it to two different addressees, to the corps, but also to
14 the CSB.
15 Q. But you have no knowledge of whether the CSB received your
16 telegram or was it informed by the corps?
17 A. No. I didn't get any reply to this.
18 Q. You said that you didn't have any contacts with the CSB in
19 relation to this event. Isn't that what you are saying?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
1 (redacted). I went to the site on the very same day, when I -- I was,
2 that day, in Banja Luka, at the briefing, and at about 2300 hours,
3 roughly, I went to the site where I couldn't see very much, but one could
4 smell the smells coming from the abyss, and I could also see on the
5 location there traces of blood, bullet casings, and I went back to the
6 command --
18 Yes, they were men.
19 Q. So you yourself and those who were with you and went down there
20 to get a closer look did not observe any bodies of women or children
21 among them, did you?
22 A. There is one thing that I have to explain.
23 At one point, I noticed a group of civilians approaching the
24 victims. They were civilians from a nearby village who wanted to see if
25 there were any valuables to be had. They started rummaging through the
1 pockets of the victims. I called to them, standing on the top of the
2 ridge, shooing them away, in fact. But they were nearby locals. They
3 were not connected to the individuals who were dead.
4 Q. Precisely my point. It's not that there were bodies of women and
5 children among the dead men there; is that right?
1 The platoon of scouts did not come across any women or children.
2 Instead, they found six seriously wounded individuals who were evacuated
3 by the medical corps to the medical station in Knezevo. Therefore,
4 neither the scouts who conducted the search, nor the medical team which
5 evacuated the wounded, noticed or observed anyone else than the six
6 wounded who were taken care of.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness. Mr. Witness?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I'm listening.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: You were at the scene the day itself or the day
20 after the massacre happened, right?
21 And ...
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: And you said first time you were there you
24 couldn't see much but you could smell what was coming from down the --
25 the cliff. You, as a military man, must have seen and -- and been in the
1 presence of dead men on other occasions. Is -- is there a smell coming
2 from dead bodies that fresh? Was that the smell of rotting bodies, and
3 could that happen in so -- so little time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, as a soldier, I have
5 to tell you that I experienced all sorts of odours in my time, and I can
6 recognise them.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, I will now be changing topics.
2 Yesterday, in answer to the Prosecutor's question about your --
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Sorry, can we go to a private session. [Microphone
4 not activated.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 16278-16283 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: What the Chamber suggests is the following. That
13 we will adjourn now and we will then allow the time to the parties that
14 they need to sort this out. 30 minutes is -- is perhaps not long enough
15 for you to reach some sort of an agreement. So if you want to take 40 or
16 even 45 minutes, then feel free to do so.
17 The Chamber is minded to give off Tuesday as well, if -- if there
18 is any possibility that by the end of Tuesday some sort of agreement can
19 be reached about this. Obviously if the Defence will say that you need
20 more time than Tuesday, that it will not be possible for you to reach an
21 agreement by Tuesday, then we'll have to consider perhaps also taking
22 Wednesday --
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we're just going to go ahead. If we
24 haven't been told on Tuesday, we'll just go ahead and call the witnesses,
25 and that's an end to it.
1 Can I just raise one question. Your Honours, it is also
2 important to know because the witness who is due to start some time
3 tomorrow, but there's lengthy examination-in-chief and equally lengthy
4 cross, so he is likely to go over to -- not to Friday but to next week,
5 because tomorrow is Thursday, and this witness is going to go into
6 tomorrow, clearly.
7 So what we will say is, if -- so we raise it now, that he is
8 allowed to go back home between Friday and -- if we adjourn on the
9 Tuesday as well and come back on the Wednesday. Because I think it would
10 be a bit much to keep -- not to mention the expense to keep him here
11 between Friday and Wednesday even though is he in the middle of
12 examination or cross-examination.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
14 We will adjourn now and ask the parties to let us know as soon as
15 you have come to some sort of a conclusion.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the discussions in the extended break
19 have proved to a certain extent productive.
20 The Defence would like to have not only Tuesday but Wednesday
21 off. With one caveat and some reluctance the Prosecution is prepared to
22 agree, subject, of course, to Your Honours' agreement, on the basis that
23 we get by Wednesday the definitive and final answer on what the Defence
24 are prepared to stipulate to in respect of adjudicated facts. The caveat
25 we have is this. That with respect of the witnesses lined up for next
1 week, the three witnesses who relate to adjudicated facts, the Defence
2 must tell us by the close of the court's sitting this Friday, because
3 Monday is a holiday and we have no opportunity otherwise to tell VWS to
4 stand people down if that's what's required, as to whether the
5 adjudicated facts to which these witnesses are going speak will be
6 stipulated to. So, the three witnesses are ST-225, ST-050, ST-241.
7 Notification by Friday, close of court's sitting, so quarter to 2.00,
8 whether the adjudicated facts to which they will speak will be stipulated
10 As regards the rest, Your Honours, with some hesitation, we will
11 accede to, as I say, if Your Honours agree to having Wednesday off,
12 provided that's it and we do finally get the definitive answer.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 On the face of it, Ms. Korner's request does not seem
15 unreasonable. Does that present -- does Friday, close of business,
16 present an insurmountable problem?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, it doesn't, because we have agreed
18 with Ms. Korner. We understand the situation the OTP is finding
19 themselves concerning the witnesses for the next week. So we agreed that
20 we will provide the -- our answer for the three witnesses that have to
21 come -- that are scheduled to come next week by Friday, end of the court
23 And for the rest, for all others, for all other witnesses we
24 agree that -- that we will provide our definitive answer by end of
25 Wednesday. Thank you.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm that this is the
3 joint position of both Defence.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: So the Chamber approves the joint proposal of
7 counsel in that regard, and the -- the -- the two days next week will be
8 used to finalise these matters. And we're grateful to counsel for the
9 effort that they have put in to trying to arrive at a resolution of this
11 MR. ZECEVIC: We are grateful to Your Honours for understanding.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just one final thing. The filing that
14 Your Honours ordered for the earlier agreement to adjudicated facts, we
15 suggest, really, this is a Defence filing, because it's for them to say
16 exactly what they agree. So, obviously we'll -- when they've filed
17 their -- if -- their motion on that, then we'll accede to it. Or it can
18 be a joint filing. But, in any event, we don't want to start writing
19 things down, sending it back to the Defence who've decided what they'll
20 accept, so they ought to file the basic motion.
21 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
22 JUDGE HALL: So the only thing that we need add to Ms. Korner's
23 observation is that we suppose that it would be practical for the Defence
24 to prepare the first draft and what we would expect to receive is a
25 joint -- the product of your joint efforts. What we are trying to avoid
1 is a back and forth between counsel in terms of what, in fact, is
3 MS. KORNER: Is Your Honour saying that we should wait now
4 until -- so we shouldn't file this Friday but wait until everything else
5 has been finished?
6 Well, then you're going to have bits and pieces.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, what we -- what we -- what is already in
8 agreement would help us in preparing the outstanding motions, so that we
9 can work on them on -- on -- on Tuesday and Wednesday when we are out of
11 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. But none of what has already
12 previously been agreed has any affect on any of the outstanding motions,
13 at all.
14 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: The problem is we don't know what has been
16 agreed, so -- so if you say -- if you say it has nothing to do with the
17 outstanding motions, we take your word for it. But --
18 MS. KORNER: All right.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- it would be helpful if we could know --
20 MS. KORNER: Yes.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- what --
22 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honours, what we are simply saying
23 is, we'll await the Defence list, and then we'll -- and we'll file a
24 joint motion. Basically we're saying, we're sick to death of drafting
25 motions. This is the Defence time.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So could we have the blinds down so that the
3 witness could be escorted back to the stand.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, we stopped when we were discussing the delegation arriving
8 from Banja Luka.
9 You said that they visited there to tour the corridor --
10 JUDGE HALL: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic. I'm reminded by the
11 Court Officer that we -- when we adjourned we were in private session.
12 Should we remain so?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: Could we go to private session for a moment.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 16290-16301 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I take my belongings? Is that
19 business done or should I leave them here?
20 JUDGE HALL: I believe the Prosecution is through with them and
21 they would return them to the Registry so they could be given back to
22 you. I believe that's the position.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, they've been given back to him. They
24 were given back this morning.
25 JUDGE HALL: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought he meant the documents that
1 we were dealing with yesterday. The -- your other belongings, because
2 the courtroom is used for other purposes, the -- the Court Officers would
3 assist you with them. The ushers would assist you with them.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. Before we rise there's the matter of
9 65 ter 10520 that was uploaded -- that had been marked for
10 identification. It has, thanks to the OTP, now been -- since been
11 uploaded and may -- the MFI qualification may be removed.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: We take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
16 October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.