101021ED

Page 16305

1 oath.

2 You may resume your seat.

3 WITNESS: ST-197 [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. This morning we'll go through two topics that I believe are

12 relevant, and you've discussed them partly in your examination-in-chief

13 with the Prosecution.

14 I'd like to show you a document from our 65 ter list.

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 811. Tab 4.

16 I'm sorry, I made a mistake. We need 65 ter 10501, and it's

17 1D365. 1D365; it's in the Prosecutor's folder, tab 13.

18 Q. This is a document the Prosecution has already shown you, and

19 this is the cover letter for the document we will open. It says that

20 thereby attached is an instruction on how to handle the civilian affairs

21 in the crisis areas, and it's signed by Major-General Milan Pujic.

22 Since you discussed this document, I would just like to turn to

23 the next page to see what is stipulated there. It defines the tasks of

24 the civilian authorities in the commands of the JNA and local commands,

25 and we'll move to the next page immediately to see what it looks like,

Page 16306

1 and then I'll ask my question.

2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

3 Q. We won't go into details because you've done that with the

4 Prosecution already. Just let's read the subheading.

5 Tasks from the area of state administration, legislative,

6 judicial and executive authority. In December 1991, the Federal

7 Secretariat for National Defence specified in greater detail that the

8 civilian affairs organs in military units would have in the areas that

9 I've just read out. You said you had not had occasion to read this

10 document before, when the Prosecutor asked you; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were shown exactly what these tasks were, and it says that

13 military units, in their respective areas of responsibility, especially

14 during combat operations, have certain powers to take over the role of

15 civilian authorities if these civilian authorities are not operating in

16 your area of activity. Is that written here?

17 A. I saw this document for the first time in my contacts with the

18 Prosecution here at The Hague Tribunal. The first time I was invited,

19 around the 6th of September.

20 When I was a military commander, I never saw that document, nor

21 acted upon it. By reading this document and another attachment to it, I

22 saw that these affairs and activities were brought down to the brigade

23 level so that civilian affairs organs were activated up to brigade level

24 but not lower.

25 Q. Thank you. I won't go into detail because you've done that with

Page 16307

1 the Prosecutor already.

2 Just let me ask you: If, in your area, civilian authorities are

3 not functioning, can that, in any way, affect the combat readiness of

4 your brigade and interfere with the execution of combat missions?

5 A. In all areas where I executed combat operations, civilian

6 authorities were functioning properly so I never encountered this

7 situation.

8 Let me just add one thing. In the process of preparing for this

9 second stage of testimony, I came across information that, at the corps

10 level, General Talic issued an order appointing a civil affairs organ,

11 and that was Colonel Vojin Vojunovic [as interpreted]. I also found that

12 he based his activities in some municipalities in Krajina, for instance,

13 in the municipality of Kljuc. In the area of activities of my brigade,

14 he never showed up, and he never dealt with such issues, and I have to

15 emphasise, once again, in my area of activity, all the civilian

16 authorities were functioning properly. So there was no need for anything

17 like this.

18 Q. Can you just repeat the name of that commander appointed by

19 General Talic?

20 A. Colonel Gojko Vojnovic [as interpreted].

21 Q. All right. I'll move onto the next document.

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 10502.

23 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I -- before I -- before we move on, first

24 of all, it would helpful if Mr. Cvijetic would agree that the document in

25 question was not shown first to the witness in September, when he came

Page 16308

1 here, but is referred to in the statement that was made on the 30th of --

2 of August -- August.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: In the transcript the 8th of September,

4 Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, no. No, Your Honours. He said he first saw

6 it.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, that's right.

8 MS. KORNER: But he didn't, that's what I'm saying. And I'm

9 asking Mr. Cvijetic --

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm sorry. sorry. I misunderstood that.

11 MS. KORNER: Sorry, yes, no. He was shown it and dealt with it

12 in the last paragraph, paragraph 18 of the statement that he made. And I

13 see the witness nodding. And ...

14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I think we can deal with it easily by asking the witness. I will

16 accept any answer he gives.

17 A. I apologise. What the Prosecutor is saying is true. I made a

18 mistake because my interview was somewhere at the beginning of September,

19 and that's when I was first shown it. I got confused for a moment

20 between two different periods.

21 MS. KORNER: Sorry. And at the moment, it's not exhibited. But

22 perhaps, as you've been asking questions about it, we can have it made an

23 exhibit.

24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's already exhibited. 1D365.

25 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No, it's not.

Page 16309

1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D365.

2 MS. KORNER: I see Judge Delvoie and I are somewhat surprised by

3 that. It's certainly not on my list as an exhibit, this.

4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I know exactly through which

6 witness it was exhibited.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I said the 65 ter number, but it

10 has an exhibit number, 1D365.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, Mr. Smith agrees, it didn't appear

12 either on your list or my list, as we gave it an extra outside the --

13 the -- the range of 65 ter.

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then we will move on to

16 65 ter 10502.

17 Q. Witness, I'm trying to establish the basis and the origin of that

18 previous document on the basis of what it was adopted. Here before you,

19 you have an instruction for conducting civil affairs in crisis areas.

20 Just let's turn to the last page to see who passed -- who adopted

21 this instruction.

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, the last page but one. The

23 last page but one; that's one before this. This is the last page. Now

24 we need the one before. This is it.

25 Q. And we'll stay on this one. Can you just confirm that this

Page 16310

1 instruction was issued by the Federal Secretary for National Defence,

2 Army General Veljko Kadijevic.

3 A. I see a signature here. I don't see -- I don't -- I can't know

4 that it's Veljko Kadijevic's signature. I see it has no stamp. But I

5 can say the same as before. I have not -- in fact, I did not see it at

6 the time, nor did it ever have any effect at any level below the corps

7 command.

8 Q. Can you just read the second paragraph on the page you're looking

9 at?

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We can zoom in on the second

11 paragraph for the witness.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. As you see, General Kadijevic prescribes that in areas where

15 civilian authorities are not functioning, pending the establishment of

16 civilian authority, certain steps can be taken by the military. Is it,

17 indeed, what it says?

18 A. I've read it now, and before, and I have already given an answer.

19 That applies to areas where civilian authorities were not functioning,

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16311

1 Q. Thank you for that answer. Could you just look at the last

2 paragraph but one.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think from line 18 through to 25

4 needs to be redacted. We're in open session.

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree. We can move on and in

6 the future we will not mention the witness.

7 Q. Have you read para 12?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 Q. Just a minute. Let me ask you the question.

10 The federal secretary allows for the possibility that a commander

11 improvise on the spot and adapt to the situation on the ground, so this

12 document has the nature of an instruction, giving authority to the

13 commander to decide on the ground on what measures would be appropriate;

14 is that right?

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16312

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 You may continue.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

22 for this warning.

23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you have

24 observed, I am aware of that and as soon as I think that we need to go to

25 private session I will request that. But I think that is not necessary

Page 16313

1 yet.

2 Let us go back to document -- 65 ter 886.

3 MS. KORNER: Again, I -- I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong,

4 but I don't think this document that you have just been asking the

5 witness about has been exhibited.

6 If I'm wrong, could somebody please tell me.

7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, but I can tender it and since

8 it is in the context of the previous document I seek to tender it, as I

9 think it's relevant.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, obviously I agree with that.

11 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D388, Your Honours.

13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now we see 65 ter 886.

14 Q. Witness, we'll deal with this briefly.

15 You say -- or, rather, you commented on this document which was

16 signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Branislav Grujic. And it's an order about

17 the establishment of the defence of the town of Donji Vakuf.

18 As you have just spoken about Derventa and Brod, here, too,

19 military persons were appointed to high posts in the civilian structures,

20 including the judiciary, and so on.

21 Do you not think that the military commanders in this

22 municipality, Donji Vakuf, identified the reasons as outlined in that

23 document and that they have taken over these posts, in accordance with

24 the documents that we've seen?

25 A. I have provided an answer to this matter yesterday, and I stand

Page 16314

1 by it.

2 Q. You doubted the authenticity of the document, but I must warn you

3 that we cannot doubt documents on the 65 ter list. And I must treat this

4 document as authentic.

5 So I asked you about the contents of the document. We heard your

6 opinion about its authenticity.

7 So do you agree with my conclusions that these military

8 commanders actually realised their authorities and in the municipalities

9 without functional civilian structures, military persons were appointed

10 to responsible posts in the civilian structures?

11 JUDGE HALL: Sorry for the interrupting the interpreters. Can

12 the witness fairly be expected to answer that question?

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is one of the type of questions that

14 I've been objecting to, "Do you agree with my conclusions?" He can put a

15 proposition to the witness but not in that form.

16 JUDGE HALL: You can try again, Mr. Cvijetic.

17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, I put it to you that the military commanders who signed

19 this document acted in accordance with the powers bestowed on them, and

20 the document I showed you, and they appointed military persons to

21 high-ranking persons in the civilian structures. Do you agree with what

22 I'm saying? And was it, indeed, the case?

23 A. I do not agree. Because can I only be responsible for my own

24 acts and not the acts of the commander who drafted this document. Why

25 don't you call him and have him answer your question?

Page 16315

1 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that such an order was issued

2 and that it was in force in the municipality of Donji Vakuf?

3 A. I repeat, that I have commented this order. This order is

4 illegal, starting from the stamp and all through the end. It's dated the

5 19th of June. At that time, military stamps of the JNA were no longer

6 valid.

7 Q. All right. You explained as much yesterday, so we don't dwell on

8 this document anymore.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 MS. KORNER: And can -- I'm sure, redact the last ...

18 JUDGE HALL: Well, I don't necessarily deem it necessary at this

19 point. I don't know what the rest of your question is. Perhaps it

20 doesn't create a problem. It's for you to indicate, because you would

21 know where you are going.

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honours. I will not

23 mention the witness's name. I will deal with a document. Could we

24 please see document 1D04-3091.

25 Q. Can you confirm that you are familiar with this document and that

Page 16316

1 you have reviewed it.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is this document the type of document that you, as a commander,

4 would rely on most while commanding your unit? And is it a document that

5 you should be best familiar with?

6 A. It is one of the rule-books that is most important to me for

7 successful control and command. But there are other rule-books too. I

8 have one on me. I showed it, and activities were more or less carried

9 out, pursuant to that.

10 Q. I'm not sure whether this has an English version. Oh, yes, it

11 does.

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16321

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You can see that this operations group also includes a battalion

3 of the MUP and a tactical group.

4 A. I can see that.

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Next page, page number 4,

6 ERN 0086-1635. I think that's the next one.

7 Q. In the last paragraph, can you see where it says level of combat

8 morale, and it describes the heavy losses sustained by a company of

9 reserve police that was involved.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let's just look at the last page to see who signed this document.

12 Who signed this? Look to the left. Obviously one of the

13 officers signed for General Talic, one of the officers of the

14 1st Krajina Corps. Do you agree?

15 A. Yes. This is the stamp of the 1st Krajina Corps, but whose

16 signature this is, I don't know. It's obviously not the signature of

17 General Talic.

18 Q. No dispute about that. Can you agree with me that this is a

19 regular combat report sent, as we can see from the heading, to the

20 Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

21 and that's at the corps level. The corps is reporting to the Main Staff.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would it be fair to conclude that members of the police were also

24 engaged as part of units of the corps with certain assignments?

25 A. I cannot comment on -- on what General Talic wrote.

Page 16322

1 Q. You don't have to comment. I'm asking you if it's obvious from

2 the report.

3 A. This battalion from the MUP that is mentioned as part of the

4 Operations Group Doboj, I don't know which battalion it is, and for that

5 reason I can't say anything. I can't say what it was all about, and

6 which unit was involved. It would be very thankless for me to comment on

7 the reports sent by my superior further up the chain. I did not see any

8 of these reports, and I'm not prepared to give a proper answer.

9 Q. Is there any reason to doubt that this report is inaccurate?

10 A. I have no reason to doubt or confirm.

11 MS. KORNER: I mean, really, that is, if I can put it, a

12 non-question question. I mean, the witness has said he knows nothing

13 about this report, he hasn't seen it before, and it is no good

14 Mr. Cvijetic trying to get it in by saying, Is there any reason to doubt

15 its accuracy? Although, can I say, if he wants to have it admitted, I

16 have no objection.

17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I must say I

18 can't help noticing that in his testimony the witness doubts the

19 authenticity of certain documents whose authenticity is really beyond any

20 doubt. But, of course, whatever the Trial Chamber decides. If you want

21 me to, I'll withdraw my question and move on. I will, though, ask that

22 this document be admitted as extremely relevant, in view of the Defence's

23 case concerning the engagement of police units in combat operations.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't follow this at all, I am

25 afraid. I mean, Mr. Cvijetic is really making a speech here. But

Page 16323

1 there's never been in this dispute that police units were fighting. The

2 question is how they came to be there. That's the only question of

3 dispute and this document doesn't assist on that at all. And that's the

4 issue between the Defence and the Prosecution, not the fact that police

5 were engaged in combat operations.

6 JUDGE HALL: Hence, Mr. Cvijetic, if there is no issue as to the

7 fact of police units being engaged in combat operations, is it necessary

8 to exhibit this?

9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document

10 mentions something else that I did not refer to yet. You can also see

11 the line of engagement of the police in military operations, and that's

12 an exclusively military line.

13 JUDGE HALL: I assume that, like the previous two documents that

14 were admitted, the -- there being no objection by the other side to

15 tendering them, although the witness has no personal knowledge of them,

16 the relevance is that they go to establish system and method.

17 Is that the position?

18 MS. KORNER: I actually wanted it in for a completely different

19 purpose, which I'm going deal with in re-examination, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D390, Your Honours.

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 The next document is 65 ter --

25 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

Page 16324

1 Before you proceed, Mr. Cvijetic, and I'm addressing both

2 counsel, the Court Officer needs to be instructed as to whether it is

3 the -- an instruction from the Chamber, depending on what the parties

4 say, whether these three exhibits should be under seal.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't think so. Well, I suppose

6 it's a question of --

7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think there is no need, because

8 even the witness's unit is not mentioned, let alone the witness himself.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we see no need either for them to be

12 under seal.

13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

14 Please continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'd like to show you a -- 2D46.

17 Here, can you see the command of military post, certain number,

18 order for further operations. And can you see, in the second paragraph,

19 that the military police and a platoon of civilian police also received

20 assignments by this military order, and a directly military assignment

21 was given to the platoon of civilian police. Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Let's just look at the last page to see who signed this.

24 We can't see whether it's a lieutenant-colonel or a colonel, but

25 the last name is Samardzija. Can you see that?

Page 16325

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. I think this answers the objection to my previous document. The

3 question was on whose orders they were engaged in military operations,

4 and here we can see that. Do you agree that an officer with a rank of a

5 commander of the military P.O. box - it's probably a brigade - orders the

6 police to take part in combat operations?

7 A. With your leave, I need some more time to answer this.

8 Q. Can you see the stamp?

9 A. It's a regular municipality stamp, not a military stamp.

10 Q. In the heading of the document it says military P.O. box command,

11 Kljuc?

12 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... the witness

13 wanted to give an answer to the question he was asked. So could we have

14 the answer. The question was:

15 "Do you agree that an officer with a rank of commander of the

16 military orders the police to take part in combat operations?"

17 And the witness wanted to answer that.

18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if this was

19 interpreted correctly. It was not military police commander. It was

20 commander of a military P.O. box. Let's just see on the first page again

21 which unit it was.

22 Left-hand top corner.

23 A. Yes, can I see that. I don't know that military P.O. box. It

24 was not one of my neighbours. That commander had command only over

25 military police, not civilian police, and I explained that extensively in

Page 16326

1 my interviews with the Prosecution and in my prior evidence. And one of

2 the answers I've given is that we had both trained and untrained

3 commanders. Obviously a trained commander would have never written an

4 order like this, and would never have affixed a stamp of a civilian

5 organisation on it.

6 Q. The point of my question was that he did make such an order and

7 he did engage the civilian police.

8 A. I can answer only for my own actions in the post I occupied.

9 What other people did, I really cannot be expected to explain.

10 Q. Very well. This line of questioning had one purpose only. You

11 have just said -- or, rather, stated your version of the participation of

12 the civilian police in combat operations upon the question of Ms. Korner,

13 and I will put the position of the Defence to you, which you may accept

14 or not.

15 Here it is: The armed forces of the former Socialist Republic of

16 Yugoslavia consisted of the Yugoslav People's Army and the

17 Territorial Defence, as well as any individual who volunteers and goes to

18 the nearest draft office and accepts the rules of military hierarchy and

19 discipline. In the RS, instead of the JNA, the Army of the RS stepped

20 in, and with the Territorial Defence and with the volunteers, it made up

21 an armed force.

22 The police could participate in the execution of combat

23 activities but only pursuant to the rules of resubordination to the

24 military command in charge.

25 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 16327

1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the position

2 of the Defence. I will end by asking the witness whether he agrees with

3 our position.

4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. There were at least three separate

5 questions rolled up into that. I think this must be broken down. The

6 first question is -- just a minute, please, Mr. Cvijetic, and will you

7 see my objection. Whether he agrees that the armed forces of the former

8 Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia consisted of the Yugoslav People's Army

9 and the Territorial Defence, as well as any individual who volunteers.

10 That's the first question.

11 Second question: In the RS, instead of the JNA, the Army of the

12 RS stepped in and with the Territorial Defence, and with the volunteer it

13 made up an armed force. That's the end of the second question.

14 Third question: Could the police participate in the execution of

15 combat activities but only pursuant to the rules of resubordination?

16 So that is three separate questions, please.

17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, did you remember those questions, or

18 did you need to have them repeated by Mr. Cvijetic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a very broad

20 topic about which I would have to speak for another day, possibly. This

21 has to do with the constitutional matters, the Law on the Armed Forces,

22 the rule-book of service in the army, and so on. This would require us

23 to go back to these matters and see whether they stand or not. But I

24 have put forward my definitive position. I have nothing to add.

25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept that. I

Page 16328

1 will repeat my question broken up into smaller parts.

2 Q. The armed forces are a whole and consist of the Yugoslav People's

3 Army, the Territorial Defence, and the members of the armed forces.

4 Correction: A member of the armed forces is any citizen, who with a

5 weapon in his hand, or without it, participates in resisting enemy

6 forces. That's how it was regulate in the former SFRY. So I ask you if

7 you agree that this is correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now here's my second question: In war, during imminent threat of

10 war and in other extraordinary circumstances, the police can be used to

11 carry out combat operations of the armed forces in accordance with the

12 law; is that correct?

13 A. The instruction on the use of the Territorial Defence says that

14 in war, the police is an integral part of the TO. Item 6 of the

15 instruction.

16 Q. And, now, during the time it carries out combat operations of the

17 military -- of the armed forces, the police is subordinated to the

18 commander who manages the combat operations in question.

19 A. If a unit is attached to such a military unit and subordinated to

20 it, then it carries out relevant tasks. But a condition for that is that

21 everything be legal and covered by orders, legislation, and so on.

22 Q. This is what I have just read out from the regulations setting --

23 laying this out.

24 Thank you, I have no more questions.

25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my

Page 16329

1 cross-examination.

2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I?

4 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, just one follow-up question. The

6 way the previous question was put to you and the answer you gave to me,

7 make me wonder, it is not the fact of executing combat operations that

8 subordinates a unit to the military, if I understood you correctly, but

9 it is the subordination to the military that permits a unit to be in

10 combat operations.

11 So it's the other way around, if you see what I mean.

12 You first have to be subordinated before you go into combat under

13 military command.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16330

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16331

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted). I did not report to the MUP organs because, as we

4 said yesterday, Mr. Zupljanin, as chief of the Banja Luka CSB, to which

5 that police belonged, and the entire brigade staff were -- were members

6 of the police. So it would have been superfluous for me to inform

7 Mr. Zupljanin additionally, because he was kept up to date daily through

8 his -- through the members of his police units. That unit, as an

9 infantry brigade that was part of a corps, did not carry out tasks from

10 the remit of the civilian police, and that's why the police wasn't

11 informed either. And, anyway, there were people from the CSB who

12 reported along professional lines.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, in other words, the CSB in Banja Luka was

14 kept informed at all times about the activities of the brigade while it

15 was resubordinated to the corps; is that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know how the reporting was done? Did the

18 police officers that you had under you, did they report in writing, or

19 did they send daily combat reports or whatever name these reports might

20 have had?

21 Do you know how they reported back to Mr. Zupljanin?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they informed him.

23 Perhaps through personal contacts, because Mr. Zupljanin was there.

24 Maybe Mr. Zupljanin, along the lines of control and command, informed his

25 minister or any other superiors. I don't know that.

Page 16332

1 But the people who were there, who most of them were inspectors

2 of the MUP and they were in constant contact with Mr. Zupljanin and there

3 was no need for drafting additional reports as we had people present

4 constantly.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

6 JUDGE HALL: Well, we're at the point where we would take the

7 usual break. So we would lower the blinds so the witness could be

8 escorted from the courtroom.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE HALL: And before -- before we rise, we have been made

11 aware of the concerns of the support staff as to the inconveniences

12 caused by the irregular extensions to the indicated breaks, so we would

13 ask everybody to be back after 20 minute, as we would be.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE HALL: You may be seated, sir.

18 Yes, Ms. Korner, whenever you're ready.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

20 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

21 Q. Sir, I just want to deal with some of the matters you were asked

22 about in cross-examination.

23 First of all, you were asked by Mr. Krgovic, and this is at page

24 16218 following, about the process of disarmament in Kotor Varos. And it

25 was put to you that roads had been cut by members of the opposing forces

Page 16333

1 in -- in Kotor Varos.

2 And I just want to put this in context by looking at a map,

3 please.

4 MS. KORNER: Could we have up on the screen, it's part of the map

5 book, and it is 10137.2, which was at tab 61 of our documents.

6 Your Honours, I'm not at all clear at the moment, really, what

7 the status of the map books are, whether they have been given exhibit or

8 not as a whole, but at some stage we better try and sort is out, I

9 suppose.

10 JUDGE HALL: As I recall, when we last visited this question, I

11 had myself expressed some doubt on the area and I had been corrected in

12 my assumption up to that point, that -- that the entire book had been or

13 would have been exhibited, but it was pointed out to me that from the

14 time we would have started, separate pages had been individually

15 exhibited.

16 MS. KORNER: Yeah.

17 JUDGE HALL: And -- and I think having started out down that

18 path, we must continue.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, I think probably the answer is, Your Honour,

20 when we filed the bar table motion if we can just throw in the maps that

21 have not already been exhibited as part of that and rather than starting

22 to work out which one are in and which ones aren't yet.

23 Right. Have we got that up? It is 10137.2. All right. Can we

24 sort of focus on Kotor Varos, and I just want to look at the

25 municipalities that Kotor Varos was surrounded by again. Kotor Varos

Page 16334

1 would be where we see YK, if we can focus in. Yeah, thank you, will do.

2 Q. Sir, so Kotor Varos was bordered, first of all, by Celinac, as we

3 can see. To your knowledge was Celinac virtually a completely Serb

4 majority -- I mean, sorry was a Serb majority municipality?

5 A. No. There was no clear Serb majority in Celinac. I cannot give

6 you the percentages, I don't know how many Bosniaks there were. But as

7 far as I know, the village of Mehovci and Gornji Celinac and perhaps some

8 other places were populated predominantly by Muslims. But, again I

9 cannot give you any percentages. I would have to consult statistics.

10 There were Muslims though. I don't know of any town or village populated

11 by Croats though so there was a negligible number of Croats.

12 Q. So the answer is you don't know. Don't worry, we will deal with

13 it through a different route.

14 What about Skender Vakuf? Do you know what the percentages there

15 were?

16 A. Skender Vakuf, there were two Muslim villages, and the other

17 places were predominantly populated by Serbs.

18 Q. Teslic?

19 A. In Teslic, there were more Muslims and Croats than in the other

20 two municipalities. I cannot give you the exact percentages without

21 statistics, but the majority population were Teslic [as interpreted].

22 Q. Sorry, the majority population is -- sorry. The majority

23 population has come out as Teslic. Did you say something else?

24 A. In the municipality of Teslic, as far as I know, the Serbs were

25 the majority population, followed by Muslims and Croats. They were a bit

Page 16335

1 more numerous, but I again cannot really provide percentages.

2 Q. So the only -- in Travnik was what, largely; do you know?

3 A. In Travnik, the Croats and Muslims were the majority, and the

4 Serbs were the minority. Again, I cannot give you the exact share in the

5 population of any group.

6 Q. As a military man, would it be your assessment, then, with the

7 exception of Travnik, in fact, Kotor Varos was surrounded by areas where

8 the Serbs were in a majority?

9 A. That's difficult to say. Well, yes, if you take municipalities

10 and compare those. And the Serb population there. But Kotor Varos

11 itself was rather heterogeneous if we speak about villages and towns

12 inhabited by Serbs, Croats, and Muslims.

13 Q. Thank you, sir, I'm going to, in fact, next show you a more

14 detailed map of Kotor Varos which is part of the map bundle again. I

15 think it may have been exhibited though.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MS. KORNER: It's 10236.10.

18 Q. Now, that's a -- a breakdown of the municipality by villages and

19 with the overall majorities in those villages being shown, and we can see

20 also that part of Teslic and Skender Vakuf and, indeed, Celinac appear on

21 the map.

22 Can I just ask you: Are you aware of any disarmament operations

23 being carried out in the village of Maslovare?

24 A. Maslovare, like in all other settlements, was a place where

25 integrated actions were carried out. They were no different from other

Page 16336

1 populated centres. Disarmament was carried out all over the

2 municipality.

3 Q. I'm specifically referring to Maslovare. Are you aware of any

4 disarmament operation by the police or the military taken against the

5 village of Maslovare?

6 A. In Maslovare village, the population was predominantly Serbian.

7 When I said it was carried out a moment ago, I meant Siprage. I got a

8 bit confused. But Maslovare was populated predominantly by Serbs and

9 most of those people were already in the Army of Republika Srpska, but

10 the operation applied to the whole territory of the municipality, so in

11 Maslovare, equally, if somebody had weapons illegally in their

12 possession, they were supposed to be disarmed, like anywhere else.

13 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... suppose being the operative word.

14 Well, you mentioned Siprage, hasn't come up clearly on the map.

15 MS. KORNER: Can we move the map up a bit and can you see Siprage

16 on there. No, up, upwards. Sorry. All right. Downwards, I suppose

17 then. I want Siprage which you can see at the bottom of the map. Okay.

18 Don't bother. I don't think it's worth the trouble.

19 Q. Siprage -- yes, yes, go on. That's good. Thank you. Stop.

20 In fact, as we can see, and you have mentioned it was a largely

21 Muslim village; that's right, isn't it?

22 A. Yes. Siprage was predominantly Muslim, but there were Serbs

23 living there as well. So it was a mixed population. Still, with a

24 Muslim majority.

25 Q. Right. Thank you, sir. That's all I'm going to ask about that

Page 16337

1 aspect.

2 Now, Mr. Krgovic showed you a map which allegedly showed the

3 positions of the opposing forces, and I believe that was ...

4 MS. KORNER: We better have it up on the screen again. I think

5 it was -- Mr. Krgovic, correct me if I'm wrong, it was 2D07-1171. Is

6 that -- oh, he's gone, so he can't correct me if I'm wrong. All right.

7 Let's --

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MS. KORNER: Oh, 2D116.

10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

13 MS. KORNER: Sorry. The wrong translation is showing. That's

14 for the next map that I'm going to show the witness. Well, it shouldn't

15 be. It's got nothing to do with it. Yep.

16 Now, I don't -- I don't need to bother about the translation.

17 That can go off the screen so we can try and get the map the right way

18 around. Okay. Oh, is this the one we couldn't get the right way around.

19 I wonder if Mr. Aleksic could hand his over. Okay. I tell you what, if

20 he hasn't got it, I will hand my copy over and we can put it on the --

21 and we can put it in Sanction. Oh, it is in Sanction.

22 If we can go to Sanction. If you can turn the witness's thing to

23 Sanction. Yes, thank you. Has it --

24 Q. Sir, can you see the map?

25 MS. KORNER: No, no. If you turn it into Sanction. If you

Page 16338

1 switch the Sanction thing on. All right.

2 Q. Now, sir, have you ever seen this particular document before?

3 You were shown it by Mr. Krgovic yesterday.

4 A. I saw it yesterday for the first time.

5 Q. All right. Is this in the format that the military maps that

6 would have been produced in 1992 would have been produced?

7 A. In the military regulations, levels of command are strictly

8 stipulated for map making. As far as I can see, the scale is 1:100.000,

9 but in my brigade, all graphic instructions were done on a map, 1:50.000.

10 That's what the regulations stipulated.

11 Q. This one appears to say, if you look at the side, this is

12 1:50.000. It may well be that the simplest thing is I'd like you to have

13 a look, please, at a map.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is simply being done to show

15 what, we suggest, were the military maps that were produced at the time.

16 It was disclosed to the Defence, it comes from the 1st Krajina Corps

17 documentation that was seized in 1998. Can we have up, please, on the

18 screen -- right, again in Sanction. We'll leave it in Sanction, it's

19 quicker. 10553. And there -- the last translation that suddenly came up

20 on the screen should go with this one.

21 Q. Now, sir, have a look at that, if you can see it, and tell us,

22 first of all, whether this is the type of military map that was produced

23 in 1992?

24 A. This is the kind of map that belongs in the category of general

25 map, because there are decisions written into the map, but there are

Page 16339

1 general-view maps that are intended to show the situation in general. I

2 see this as a general map, not a tactical map, defining the decision of

3 the corps command.

4 MS. KORNER: If we -- can we -- is it possible to have the

5 translation of what's written on it by the side or not? Okay, we can do

6 that in -- in e-court.

7 Q. Right. Sir, just so that everybody understands the writing on

8 it, is it headed decision of the command -- commander of the

9 Light Brigades group, military secret. And then approved, Major-General

10 Momir Talic, strictly confidential?

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm -- I'm terribly sorry, but we are facing a

12 problem trying to follow in Serbian, the -- what -- what Ms. Korner is --

13 is reading from. Because it's -- it's very small -- small print on the

14 map, and, therefore, we would need that part enlarged in order to be able

15 to follow.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. KORNER: All right. That part -- that's a good point. I'm

18 not sure exactly where that is on this writing.

19 If you focus, please, on the bit in the middle. Yep. At the

20 top. No. This is going to be a rather tedious and time-consuming

21 exercise, I feel.

22 Q. What I want to know, sir, can I put it this way: The maps that

23 were produced by the corps or -- or -- under which you came, as a

24 military man, were they all in this sort of format, with handwriting on

25 it?

Page 16340

1 A. Maps are normally made by hand and drawings are made by hand. We

2 have to get one thing clear. This concerns a group of brigades. I see

3 here Petar Spasojevic as the commander. This is to be approved,

4 according to the rules, by the corps commander. We cannot see the

5 signature of General Talic, that he approved the map. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 On this map, I don't see that the decision was, indeed, approved

11 by Corps Commander General Talic or that are it was signed by

12 Petar Spasojevic. So, to me, this is a general-view map. And a general

13 map is meant to be viewed by anyone who comes into that conference room.

14 Q. Right. But all I'm trying to get at is, sir, is that the

15 military maps in use in 1992, whether an overall map like this, or one

16 that deals with the particular area would be handwritten, there would be

17 handwriting on it, and it would be authorised by the -- the corps

18 commander; is that right?

19 A. That's right. All maps - that is, decisions - are to be approved

20 by the superior. And they are all done in hand.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's all I ask. And I'm not

23 asking -- the map has no relevance in itself. So I'm not asking for it

24 to be exhibited.

25 Q. Next ...

Page 16341

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MS. KORNER: Well, quite, Your Honours. At the moment we've had

3 no explanation of what these maps are or how they are produced, and I'm

4 trying to show that the maps that were actually in use do not look like

5 this.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: With all due respect, Your Honours, we're talking

7 about the maps from two opposing sides, so this witness can give evidence

8 on the maps which are in use in the Serbian army, and this is -- this is

9 the opposing army, so -- the opposing army map, as far as I understood.

10 So I don't see how we can generalise on the -- on the contents and the

11 way how the maps were produced on both sides.

12 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. My understanding was this

13 was allegedly the map produced by Mr. Krgovic. And I see Mr. Pantelic

14 and Mr. Aleksic, sorry, sitting there. It is meant to be a map showing

15 from the Serb side, Bosnian Serb side, nothing to do with the opposes

16 forces. It's meant to be showing the opposing forces, and I understand

17 that -- it seems to be the suggestion is this is map that comes from the

18 time and we don't accept that.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe Mr. Zupljanin Defence

20 can provide with us the explanation because I understood quite contrary.

21 MR. PANTELIC: For the record, Your Honours, we are speaking

22 about this map under the -- that Ms. Korner just made a reference

23 2D07-1171. On the top right part of that map, there is a clear sign that

24 it was issued by the government of Republika Srpska in Bosnia, Republican

25 Secretariat for the Relation with the ICTY.

Page 16342

1 So it is obviously that it's from the archive of this body,

2 whether it's made by the military authorities or not. If -- if

3 necessary, we could take a look on it, but the basis is that a certain

4 position of enemy forces under the command of Raif Alagic on the date of

5 11 of June, 1992 was, at that time, in the region of Kotor Varos. So we

6 really don't know if that is in dispute, this position or former one, you

7 can ask witness and I think he gave quite detailed answer. And frankly,

8 I mean, it's not so important issue. I mean, it's not in dispute between

9 parties that the clashes were on in Kotor Varos and -- June 1992, and

10 simply as that. Thank you.

11 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, there are a number of different

12 points. The first is my understanding was that this was produced

13 absolutely by this organisation in Banja Luka as a representation of a

14 genuine map that was produced at the time to show the position of the

15 alleged opposing forces. And if you will recall, I asked for information

16 about that. And I didn't get any because Mr. Krgovic doesn't know one

17 way or the other, and I'm -- all I'm trying to show at this stage, and

18 we'll make our own inquires, is that the maps are different. And the

19 witness has dealt with that. As to the rest of Mr. Pantelic's

20 suggestions, there is an issue -- not that -- that there were not

21 resistance in Kotor Varos but as exactly how many and how they were

22 described.

23 However, I've dealt with that point. So if we could move on,

24 please, to a different matter but arising from the same thing.

25 Q. You spoke about Mr. Sadikovic and the book that he wrote. And

Page 16343

1 you volunteered that he said that he had under him five detachments,

2 namely, the 5th Detachment, the 35th, 55th, 84th and 105th. And

3 according to all the establishment regulations, detachments normally have

4 up to 500 men. I don't know if Muhamed Sadikovic had as many men.

5 Now, that's information, is it, sir, that you obtained from his

6 book?

7 A. I had some of that information even before the execution of

8 combat operations, but not the details of where each detachment was

9 located, what its name was and what its part of the assignment was. I

10 got confirmation after the operation, concerning these details, from the

11 book, from the author, Sadikovic, in the annex, appendix to the book.

12 Q. And you, of course, knew Mr. Sadikovic, didn't you, because you

13 were engaged in the negotiations for Mr. Sadikovic and his men to

14 surrender?

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MS. KORNER: I see ... [Microphone not activated]

Page 16344

1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, page 39,

2 lines 19 through 23, the witness's answer was not quite correctly

3 interpreted. Could the witness repeat? I think he said something

4 different so that I don't have to testify.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes, in fact, I had the same note from my B/C/S

6 speaker as well, that it wasn't correctly interpreted. Which -- the

7 answer from lines 19 through 23 on the previous page. Just a moment.

8 Q. Sir, I -- I'll go back over this. I was asking you whether the

9 information you gave the Court yesterday at page 16236, to 26 [sic] of

10 the transcript about Mr. Sadikovic came from the book and your answer

11 was: I had some of that information even before the execution of combat

12 operations but not the details of where each detachment was located, what

13 its name was and what its part of the assignment was. I got confirmation

14 after the operation concerning these details from the book, from the

15 author, Sadikovic, in the annex, appendix to the book.

16 Now apparently that isn't a correct recording of what you

17 actually said. Is there anything that you want to correct in it?

18 A. That's precisely what I said and I stand by it. There's nothing

19 to change. I saw Mr. Sadikovic for the first time on the 7th of April,

20 1992. And as for these detachments, I said yesterday, and that's it.

21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am really sorry.

22 Perhaps we can listen to the tape. The witness said: I had all the

23 details where the units are, where they are located but I didn't have the

24 numbers, what each unit's -- what each detachment's number was. So he

25 had all the information. He just didn't have the numbers of the

Page 16345

1 detachments. These are two different things.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MS. KORNER: I'm told, Your Honours, that the translation came

4 out as "details" but it was "numbers." That's -- that was the

5 difference.

6 Q. All right. Sir, I'm going ask you one more time about this. But

7 are you sure that you didn't take part in the negotiations that led to

8 the surrender of Mr. Sadikovic and his men?

9 A. I took part in talks with various structures. But directly

10 concerning the surrender of Sadikovic and his men, I did not take part in

11 those negotiations.

12 Q. [Microphone not activated] Now, sir, you did some researches, as

13 you told the Court, and when you came with the documents, before you came

14 back here, and one of the documents we noted that you had got was the

15 report by the military analyst, Mr. Brown, and I'll come back to that in

16 a moment.

17 Did you, yourself, download that from the Internet; if not, how

18 did you get hold of it?

19 A. I didn't know do it myself because I do not have Internet access.

20 I got this at the department for co-operation with the ICTY, and they had

21 downloaded it from the Internet and it was meant as mere information for

22 me to know what he had written. Nothing special.

23 Q. I will come back to that in a moment. I want to stay with

24 Mr. Sadikovic for a moment.

25 Were you aware that Mr. Sadikovic had testified in the case

Page 16346

1 against Radoslav Brdjanin?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Not at all?

4 A. Not at all. Not at all.

5 Q. If you had been aware, in the light of your researches, would you

6 have asked for a copy of that testimony?

7 JUDGE HALL: Ms. -- Ms. Korner, the questions, if so-and-so,

8 always likely to be unhelpful and I suspect that appears to be the case

9 with this question. I don't know where you can go with --

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I won't pursue that.

11 Q. You told the Court today that Colonel Vojnovic had been in charge

12 of morale, and you discovered that, though you weren't aware of it at the

13 time. Did you get that from Mr. Brown's report?

14 A. Colonel Vojnovic was one of the commanders assistants and that

15 was his responsibility. But he was responsible for that for a very short

16 time. And in my zone, he never approached me about this, so I never

17 really learned about this until I was replaced.

18 Q. What I want to know is -- I'm just trying to get at what you,

19 yourself, actually personally knew at the time or afterwards or what you

20 got from Mr. Brown's report. Because that may be important.

21 Now, is that something that you learned from Mr. Brown's report?

22 A. I only saw in Mr. Brown's report that Mr. Vojnovic used to go to

23 Kljuc, nothing else.

24 Q. Yes --

25 A. I wasn't interested in that because Kljuc was way outside my

Page 16347

1 zone. But I read that in that report.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Ms. Korner. Sorry for interrupting. There

3 is a constant mistake and it might turn out to be important.

4 It is recorded as Mr. Vojnovic with O, V-O, and all the time the

5 witness is talking about Mr. Vujnovic. Which is V-U, Vujnovic. So this

6 should be corrected in the whole transcript.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. KORNER: No, thank you, Mr. Zecevic. I agree with that.

9 Q. Sir, all that I want to know is what was the purpose of your

10 obtaining from this so-called centre for co-operation a copy of

11 Mr. Brown's report, and how did you know about Mr. Brown's report?

12 A. I didn't know about it at all. They mentioned it to me. They

13 said they had such a report downloaded from the Internet, and that I was

14 free to read it, to get acquainted with it. But I didn't ask for it

15 because I didn't even know about it. I received another book that was a

16 monography about the VRS. I was given that to read it, and it speaks

17 about the establishment of the army and all the dates, and so on. I got

18 these two books as kind of axillary reading, if you will.

19 Q. Did this so-called centre know that you were a witness here?

20 A. I don't know if they knew. But they -- the -- the people know

21 me. And we spoke about this in general terms, and they merely mentioned

22 they had such a book so I could take it and read it for my information

23 with no special purpose in mind.

24 Q. And did they give you anything else at all?

25 A. They only gave me a book about the VRS, the first volume. It was

Page 16348

1 published on the anniversary of the establishment of the VRS.

2 Q. Is any of the evidence that you have given here over the last --

3 earlier and in the last two days, is any of that simply based on what you

4 read in Mr. Brown's report or the history of the VRS?

5 A. There are no special differences there. All I have said so far

6 matched that. There may have been minor differences in some details.

7 Possibly some regular combat report to the command corps where something

8 is mentioned, but I have seen many of these reports here already so that

9 basically there is nothing new there.

10 Q. All right. I want to -- to move to -- thank you. I want to move

11 a slightly different topic and that's this: You were asked about

12 Lieutenant-Colonel Stevilovic, who was killed in Kotor Varos in July.

13 And it was put to you, in terms, that he had a special unit that was also

14 operated in Kotor Varos, and you said you had never heard such a thing

15 before. Just ask you a little bit more about Stevilovic and the military

16 police.

17 He was -- you told us he was the colonel in charge of the

18 1st Krajina Corps's intelligence and security. Did that mean he was in

19 charge of the military police?

20 A. He was the security organ. The intelligence organ is something

21 else. He was the security organ, and he was chief of the Department of

22 Security in charge of the use of the military police of the

23 1st Krajina Corps. There was a battalion of the military police, and he

24 was in charge of it as an establishment unit.

25 Q. Right. Now, can you just tell us, what -- was there any

Page 16349

1 difference in the uniform between what a military policeman wore and what

2 a regular member of the army or police wore? What, if anything, would

3 distinguish them as a member of the military police.

4 A. As far as I know, those military policemen only wore white belts.

5 And the rest of the uniform was the same as that of all other soldiers.

6 So the only difference were the white belts.

7 Q. I want to show you a clip of a video because there's a number of

8 different video -- uniforms and I want to see if you can help us with

9 them.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is a video that's been disclosed

11 but wasn't on our 65 ter list, but I simply want to show it to the

12 witness because it's a good mixture of uniforms. It's 10555. And it was

13 disclosed with the other videos that were obtained from Banja Luka on the

14 10th of August.

15 We can --

16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I may, I believe that this line

17 of questioning by Ms. Korner does not emanate from the cross-examination,

18 so I see no grounds for dealing with this matter.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this arose not out of the

20 Mr. Cvijetic's cross-examination but out of Mr. Krgovic's. So I don't

21 know what Mr. Cvijetic is doing on his feet in the first place. It was

22 specifically put to the witness that at the same time as the special

23 police from Banja Luka were operating, Colonel Stevilovic's, men were

24 operating as a special unit. The witness has denied it, but I think it

25 is important that we see, as he has described, the difference between the

Page 16350

1 types of uniforms.

2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I was going to say that having regard to the

3 evidence we have heard over the past months, in terms of this uniform and

4 who is wearing what, if this video is useful to -- to eliminate -- to --

5 not eliminate, sorry, to illuminate that -- that the -- the issues that

6 have arisen there, although it may not have strictly arisen out of

7 cross-examination, this witness could be of assistance. He should be

8 permitted to do so.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honours. Your Honours, the date, I

10 think, appears at some stage on the screen. It's August of 1992. Yes.

11 10th of August, 1992. And for what it's worth, the video shows that it's

12 a place called Karanovac.

13 Q. Sir, do you know where Karanovac is?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you just tell the Court.

16 A. Karanovac is a village which is at the place where the road to

17 Knezevo diverges from the main road, Banja Luka-Jajce. It is from 15, 20

18 kilometres from Banja Luka, southward in the direction of Jajce. That's

19 where the road to Knezevo diverges. There's a bridge over the Vrbas

20 river and that's where the village of Karanovac is.

21 Q. Thank you very much, sir. We'll just play this video, if you'd

22 like to look at it, and we'll pause because I want you to identify it.

23 [Video-clip played]

24 MS. KORNER: First of all, can we stop and look at this man. Are

25 you able to say what sort of uniform that is.

Page 16351

1 A. Which uniform do you mean? What the police officers are wearing?

2 Because there are two kinds.

3 Q. If you can tell us, the man in the centre of the picture, wearing

4 a white shirt and what appears to be blue trousers and a blue beret.

5 A. That's a MUP uniform.

6 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 [Video-clip played]

8 MS. KORNER: Okay.

9 Q. Those -- stop, please. We see two people in camouflage. One

10 pointing at the other. Can you tell us what they are?

11 A. Well, judging by their outfit, they are members of the military

12 police in the official uniforms of the VRS. They're wearing the uniforms

13 that the VRS had at the time. And judging by the uniform and the belts

14 they would be members of the military police. Whether they really were,

15 I can't tell. But they could be, if we were to judge by the uniform.

16 MS. KORNER: Let's just see if we can see anybody that's worth.

17 Pause there for a moment.

18 Q. It's not that easy to tell, but are you able to say what he is?

19 A. It's the same kind of uniform as I saw just a minute ago. It's a

20 police uniform.

21 Q. Let's just see if there's anybody else that ...

22 [Video-clip played]

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, pausing there.

24 Q. There's a man sitting there in white short sleeves with some kind

25 of insignia on his shoulders, and there's another gentleman there sitting

Page 16352

1 next to him. Can you say what they are?

2 A. I don't know the people. I haven't seen this video before. I

3 don't know the people, really.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't know whether we get

5 a closer view of the insignia. There are 1, 2, 3, 4, people in white

6 short sleeves.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. Sir, are you able to assist at all, as to what they are?

11 A. I don't know what they are. According to what I know, they are

12 police members, members of the CSB. These are their uniforms.

13 Otherwise, I don't know the persons that we can see in this still.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. KORNER: And let's just see if there's anybody else. Yes.

16 [Video-clip played]

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. These two; can you tell us?

19 A. The one closer to us or on the right could be a MP member. And

20 the other, I don't know. He may have waited for transportation here. I

21 don't know the man. But obviously he is wearing a uniform, but -- and if

22 you want me to be specific, the uniform he is wearing was manufactured by

23 the Svila company in Celinac, and it differs from the other uniform on

24 the right. Because the army supplied itself from various sources. So

25 one of the uniforms was manufactured by Svila, from Celinac, and the

Page 16353

1 other by Jedinstvo from Vranje.

2 Q. I have to say, sir, that is quite remarkable to be able to do

3 that. All I want to ask is ask this: Is the chap in the middle with the

4 moustache, are you saying he is ordinary military?

5 A. All I can -- the insignia on the left sleeve, I see for the first

6 time now. Army members did not have such insignia. So on second thought

7 he could be a member of the police if this patch reads "police," or

8 milicija.

9 Now can I see it and that is why I'm giving this answer. But he

10 doesn't seem to be on duty because he isn't wearing a duty belt. I don't

11 know who this man is, but what I said is based on this patch on his left

12 sleeve.

13 Q. I just want to see if the video focuses a little bit more on the

14 man sitting down there.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 MS. KORNER: Yeah. All right.

17 Q. Having a look at him, sir, had you ever seen him before?

18 A. No, I cannot be certain that I have ever seen him before.

19 Q. Did you have any dealings with any of the people who came from

20 Banja Luka to the crime scene at Mount Vlasic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right.

23 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, that's all I ask about that

24 video. Could that short clip just be made an exhibit.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: If I correctly understood, this video or any part

Page 16354

1 of it is not the part of the 65 ter.

2 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No, it's not.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I think we have the ruling how -- how the --

4 how the exhibits are admitted on the 65 ter list first.

5 MS. KORNER: I appreciate that, and had it not arisen in this

6 way, we would have made an application. But it's been disclosed. I

7 cannot see any prejudice to the Defence in having this. And if anybody

8 wants again to identify various people, it may be the gentleman sitting

9 down will come of some relevance.

10 JUDGE HALL: And the witness's testimony is unintelligible

11 without the video.

12 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

13 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1672, Your Honours.

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. Sir --

17 JUDGE HALL: Just a moment, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

19 JUDGE HALL: I have been reminded that the procedurally correct

20 thing would be to, first of all, admit it to the exhibit list and then it

21 would migrate into the body of evidence as a properly admitted exhibit.

22 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, I formally apply that the 10555

23 be admitted to our 65 ter list and then be admitted and marked as an

24 exhibit.

25 JUDGE HALL: Does the Defence raise an objection, if only for the

Page 16355

1 record?

2 MR. ZECEVIC: No. Because we know the ruling, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE HALL: So it is admitted to the exhibit list and then

4 marked and admitted as an exhibit.

5 MS. KORNER:

6 Q. Right, sir, I want to just ask you a couple of questions about

7 some documents you were shown again by Mr. Krgovic --

8 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, before we go on. Mr. Witness, in one of the

9 earlier questions - I'm not going to bother to go back to get the exact

10 words that you used - that Ms. Korner put to you as to the -- when we

11 were dealing with this video with the uniforms, you indicated something

12 to the effect that you assumed they were army because of the uniforms

13 that they -- because of what you observed.

14 The -- was it possible in the region at the time for an

15 individual, any individual to just go and purchase uniforms, particularly

16 the camouflage variety; for instance, hunters and persons of -- of -- of

17 that nature? I note, with interest, how you were able in one of your

18 later answers looking at two individuals to identify the manufacturers

19 from the different patterns of the -- of -- of the camouflage uniform.

20 But I confess were it not for that answer I wouldn't have observed the

21 difference myself.

22 But my question is that -- really has to do with how much we can

23 interfere from just looking at uniforms. Do you understand, or should I

24 try to explain my question further?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will be specific. There were

Page 16356

1 various types of uniforms out there, and they were readily available even

2 at the factory that manufactured them. Initially, the Jedinstvo company

3 from Vranje manufactured uniforms, military uniforms. That's the name of

4 the company, Jedinstvo. In parallel, the -- the company named 22nd of

5 December from Banja Luka also started manufacturing uniforms but they

6 were buying the cloth from Pik Vranje. And again, parallel to that,

7 Svila, from Celinac, also started manufacturing uniforms, so you could go

8 there to the factory and buy a uniform. There were various kinds of

9 uniforms as the situation developed. Uniforms were for sale, to be

10 specific, at the Svila factory in Celinac.

11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, just one clarification, believe the witness

13 said the Svila, Celinac shop, not the factory.

14 Maybe the witness can clarify slowly and then the -- the

15 interpreters can properly interpret.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Celinac, the town which is about

17 15 kilometres away from Banja Luka, there is a factory, or rather there

18 was a factory called Svila. That was its name. There was also a factory

19 outlet which was on the premises of the factory itself. Or you could buy

20 their products, such as women's head-gear but also uniforms because they

21 had a factory outlet.

22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned Raif Alagic and what you described as his

25 troops. Was Mr. Raif Alagic one of the defenders of Vecici?

Page 16357

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Well, you said you had all this information about him. Do you

3 know what happened to him after the fall of -- the surrender of Vecici?

4 A. I don't know. I think I read about it in Sadikovic's book, in

5 the third part. It says that he got killed. I think I found that

6 information in the book. But I really don't know what happened to him.

7 If you think that the information in the book is correct, then you can

8 accept it, just as I did. Otherwise, I don't know.

9 Q. Well, sir, I can't give evidence one way or another and I haven't

10 read Mr. Sadikovic's book. But what I'm trying to ask you about is you

11 say that Mr. Alagic, as far as you were concerned, was this great big TO

12 commander about whom you had a lot of information. But you weren't aware

13 that he was in Vecici, and you weren't aware until you read

14 Mr. Sadikovic's book that he had been killed; is that right?

15 A. No, I didn't. I first got that information from that book. If I

16 can remember correctly, it said that Raif Alagic got killed.

17 Q. I want to ask you a couple of questions about some of the

18 documents you were shown, I believe this time by Mr. Cvijetic. Document

19 which was 1D00-3071. I think. Which may now be an exhibit. Or was

20 already an exhibit.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you. 2D119.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I'm reminded this is a confidential

25 document.

Page 16375

1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Planojevic, I should explain to you as a matter

2 of courtesy that what just happened had nothing to do with you. It's

3 just that the nature of a trial involves not only receiving testimony

4 from a witness but very often procedural matters have to be dealt with by

5 Trial Chamber. And it so happened that the matter with which we had to

6 deal was one thing that had to be dealt with urgently. And because it

7 did not concern your testimony at all, we thought it advisable that you

8 be escorted from the courtroom. As I said, we intended no disrespect to

9 you, and we apologise for the minor inconvenience.

10 Yes, Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you for that, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Planojevic you had just told us about how you went from your

13 position as chief of the Novo Sarajevo station to go to Marin Dvor. I

14 think that's two words, Marin Dvor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in June 1991 as commander of the police station. As I

17 understand the hierarchy, that -- that's not -- that would not be viewed

18 as a promotion or even a lateral move; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us why that happened or your understanding of why

21 that change took place?

22 A. After the multi-party elections in the end of 1990, political

23 parties already had quite some influence, as usual, and practically in

24 all stations, there occurred changes in staffings. I was thinking about

25 leaving the police altogether and registered a private company, because I

Page 16376

1 was thinking, especially after seeing who became minister, that there

2 wouldn't be much law in law enforcement anymore. The Law on Internal

3 Affairs made it possible at the time, after 20 years of service with

4 special credit in terms of pension, to retire. However, I did not

5 succeed in that, and that's how I found myself commander in the

6 Marin Dvor police station.

7 Q. Let me follow up with a few questions about that.

8 Before 1990, or before 1991, were you the member of any political

9 party?

10 A. I was a member of the League of Communists up until 1990, I

11 believe. I haven't been with any political party since, up to this day.

12 Q. Yeah. And during that period before 1990, that was basically the

13 party that anyone could be a member of?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Who replaced you in Novo Sarajevo?

16 A. Milan Komljenovic.

17 Q. Did he have any prior police experience; do you know?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What work had he done before?

20 A. I couldn't tell. I know that he is a lawyer by profession.

21 Q. Was he a member of any political party?

22 A. I'm not sure, so I'd rather not answer.

23 Q. You said in your answer at page 71, line 5, that you were

24 thinking about leaving the police altogether. Because you were thinking,

25 especially after seeing who became minister, there wouldn't be much law

Page 16377

1 in law enforcement anymore.

2 The person who became minister that you're talking about there is

3 Mr. Delimustafic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And can you tell the Judges why it is that you thought there

6 wouldn't be much law in law enforcement anymore with him as minister?

7 A. I can only tell you what I knew at the time about Delimustafic

8 without any consequences.

9 Q. Yes, yes, briefly, if you can.

10 A. I knew the man from before. He used to be a police officer, and

11 then he was dismissed from the police after a disciplinary -- after

12 disciplinary proceedings. Then he engaged in private business.

13 In an investigation in 1985 - police investigation - we worked on

14 a case, and he was one of those arrested, as a result of that

15 investigation.

16 Q. And --

17 A. Should I explain some more why he was arrested? I don't know if

18 it is necessary.

19 Q. Let me ask you a few specific questions perhaps.

20 Did you personally have a role in the investigation that led to

21 Mr. Delimustafic's arrest at that time?

22 A. When you lead an investigation involving a larger number of

23 persons, the investigation took about half a year and five or six

24 criminals were arrested. They were an organised group.

25 Q. Do I take it by your answer that you actually led that

Page 16378

1 investigation?

2 A. It had to be under my control because it -- the launching of the

3 investigation required my signature. I was chief at the time. And I

4 directed the entire investigation. The terminology we used at the time

5 was different so we didn't call it an investigation then.

6 Dragisa Kujacic, Ismet Bajramovic, also known as Celo, and others were

7 involved.

8 During the execution, we were told by them that they were paid to

9 set the car belonging to a detective on fire, a detective who used to

10 prosecute them.

11 Q. Let me ask you a couple of other specific questions. What was

12 the general nature of the investigation? Was this public corruption,

13 economic crime? How would you characterise it?

14 A. I can tell you the following. There was a case of aggravated

15 robbery, one rape, several instances of breaking and entering with

16 theft - burglary, that is - and he was involved only due to the

17 information that we received that he was the one who paid two others to

18 set that car on fire.

19 Q. Let me ask you: Was he specifically charged with a crime?

20 A. He was charged and he was in detention for 30 days. I'm not sure

21 how it -- how the case ended eventually.

22 Q. Well, do you know whether or not he was convicted?

23 A. I don't know. Believe me.

24 Q. Could he have become the minister or the secretary of the

25 interior if he had had a criminal conviction for a crime like that?

Page 16379

1 A. Not under the law. But those were times when apparently anything

2 was possible.

3 Q. Was -- do you know, was Mr. Delimustafic aware, in 1991, that you

4 had played a role in the investigation that led to his arrest and

5 detention back in 1985?

6 A. That's something I don't know either. You can believe me.

7 Q. Who was the person that would have -- or could have approved your

8 request to retire in 1991 or 1992, when you were thinking about it?

9 A. Since it was already centralised, we all belonged to what was

10 called secretariats of the interior then, the minister was in a position

11 to do so.

12 Q. And I think you told us earlier you were not able to retire at

13 that time; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you complain to anyone about your demotion, or your move from

16 being the chief in Novo Sarajevo to being the commander in Marin Dvor?

17 A. This requires a broader explanation. So if you allow, I will

18 explain.

19 Q. Please, as briefly as you can. Thank you.

20 A. At a breakfast at the journalists' club, Vito Zepinic, the

21 then-deputy minister; Momcilo Mandic, the then-assistant minister; and

22 Mico Stanisic, secretary of the city SUP, and I met. In that

23 conversation, since Vito was also in charge of personnel affairs on

24 behalf of the Serb side practically, and the conversation was about my

25 appointment as inspector for crime prevention and detection in the MUP

Page 16380

1 HQ, Vito had earlier worked where I also had worked, in Novo Sarajevo, so

2 we knew each other very well, it was promised to me then. But Kemo

3 Sabovic informed me in mid-May that I was supposed to become commander at

4 Marin Dvor. I went to pick up the decision to that effect, and I was

5 dissatisfied. I gave Sabovic a short account of what had been agreed

6 upon, and he advised me to go and see Zepinic again. I wasn't able to

7 meet him. Allegedly, at the time he was present at a government meeting.

8 On the following day, he also didn't answer my phone call, so I

9 called up Momcilo Mandic, because it was clear at the time who was in

10 charge of what, or who decided upon whose fate. For the Muslims there

11 was Alija; for the Serbs, there was Vito and so on.

12 Mandic received me. There was Bruno Stojic there, and they were

13 having breakfast in his office. There was also Hilmo Selimovic. I also

14 tried to convince them to appoint me, according to my wishes, because I

15 didn't feel like going to Marin Dvor. Momo, in a half-joking manner -

16 that was his way - he said, Just you go to Marin Dvor, you're a good

17 Serb. Whereas, Selimovic made a comment as to -- made a comment that I

18 had fared well as compared to some other old colleagues of ours who ended

19 up somewhere in the outskirts, the periphery and that's how I went to

20 Marin Dvor.

21 Q. From your earlier answer I understood you remained there until

22 about the 4th of April, 1992; is that correct?

23 A. That is correct. Until about 10.30 p.m.

24 Q. Before I get into the details of that, were you aware of a

25 dispatch that had been sent out by Momcilo Mandic, Mandic, on the 31st of

Page 16381

1 March, calling on Serbs in the -- in the BiH MUP to -- to come join the

2 newly created Serbian MUP? Did you see it or hear about it at that time?

3 A. I know of the dispatch. It said that the Ministry of Interior

4 would be divided into a Serb component and a Muslim, or Croatian,

5 component, and that the headquarters would be at Vrace. That was around

6 about the same time when the Cutileiro Plan about the possible

7 cantonisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina was a topical affair.

8 Q. Were you also aware that the -- the same day or shortly after the

9 following day of Mr. Mandic's dispatch that Mr. Delimustafic sent out a

10 dispatch telling employees of the Secretariat of the Interior that if

11 they left to join a newly created MUP that they would lose their jobs in

12 the current BiH Secretariat of Interior. Did you know about that?

13 A. I don't want, sir, to lie to you. I cannot be specific about

14 that. I have a hard time remembering.

15 Q. Okay. On the 4th of April, at 10.30, you started to tell us

16 about where you were and -- and what happened. Do you want to continue

17 from that point?

18 A. I can, but maybe it wouldn't make such sense unless I continue to

19 say what had already happened by at that time. But I can continue,

20 starting from the 4th. That's not a problem either.

21 Because it's very important what preceded the 4th. Because

22 that's more important than what actually happened on the 4th itself.

23 Q. Well, let me -- let me make a request of you and advise you we

24 have been in trial over a year. The Judges have heard a lot of evidence

25 about what happened leading up to that time, and Defence counsel will

Page 16382

1 have an opportunity to let you talk about that some. But because I have

2 a time-limit on how much can I spend with you, for now, I would request,

3 if you could tell me what happened on -- on April 4th. Thank you.

4 A. All right. Due to the overall situation, which had already

5 become unsupportable, we - that is, the executives of the police

6 station - would be on duty shifts for 24 hours. On the 4th of April, I

7 was the duty officer at the Marin Dvor police station. Then

8 Nedeljko Codo, a friend, called me up. Actually we were neighbours. We

9 had neighbouring apartments at the seaside. We're not really good

10 friends. He said to me that the Green Berets - that is, about half a

11 dozen uniformed and armed persons - had -- had stolen his entire revenue

12 from him. At that time, the amount involved was a couple of billion

13 dinars, so you would have to convert it to know how much it is. But it

14 was a large sum. It happened in the territory for which the police

15 station of Marin Dvor had responsibility.

16 I reacted by sending six or seven police officers to go to the

17 site to try and find out what had happened and see whether they could

18 find the perpetrators. One of the assistants, Suad Kadric, went along

19 with the police officers. I received feedback from them that they were

20 unable to find out anything, so I told them to return to the police

21 station.

22 When they arrived, they had a civilian with them. He was

23 carrying an automatic rifle, a Kalashnikov rifle, as it was called. They

24 briefed me that they had seen the man walking the streets with the rifle,

25 which was not really a common sight, to put it very mildly, or actually

Page 16383

1 it was inconceivable. That was at Kosevsko Brdo, that is a neighbourhood

2 above the brickworks.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where are we going with this?

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we're going with the chronology of how

7 he came to join the RS MUP. I can try and speed him along with some

8 specific questions.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do. Because -- let's get to the point.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

11 Q. After speaking with this man, did you learn any information that

12 caused you concern that something bigger than just one man walking around

13 with a rifle was happening that night of April 4th?

14 A. He was a Bosniak who stated that he had been issued a rifle at

15 the Car pub on Kosevsko Brdo, and it was his task to secure the Centar

16 municipality building with another nine men. And I asked him, Who could

17 have give -- who could have given that you task? Because I'm the

18 commander of the police station. That's my job. And he said to me that

19 the president of the then-Executive Committee, the man's last name is

20 Cengic, I'm not sure about his first name, that they were supposed to

21 assemble in front of the -- that municipality building at 2200. Then it

22 was clear to me that something unforeseen was happening.

23 Q. And --

24 A. And I immediately left the police station and asked a police

25 officer, a Serb, to drive me home.

Page 16384

1 Q. And after that, did you attempt to get in contact with your

2 fellow Serb police officers and -- and superiors in the area to learn

3 what might be happening; and, if so, what did you find out?

4 A. I first called out the Novo Sarajevo police station to check

5 whether there was anything -- anything happened there, because I had been

6 there long. I found out that nothing was happening there. Then I

7 continued to my apartment.

8 Upon arrival, the phone rang and I answered it, but nobody spoke

9 on the other side. At one moment I was able to discern a typical noise

10 produced by a radio station so I thought somebody was calling me from a

11 police station. Then a voice said, Disconnect the line. And then it was

12 disconnected.

13 I called a couple of colleagues in some other police stations and

14 inquired whether there was anything out of the ordinary, because I was

15 asking myself whether I was imagining things, that there would be

16 unwanted consequences.

17 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I have been asked to alert

18 you that there is a procedural matter we want to raise before we end the

19 day. I don't know if you want to do it now or I can continue for a

20 couple of minutes with him.

21 JUDGE HALL: Of course, we have to vacate this courtroom at 1.45.

22 Mr. Planojevic, as was explained to you, your testimony will

23 continue tomorrow. We have to raise shortly in order to make the

24 courtroom available for another trial. I am to remind you that having

25 been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any communication with counsel