1 Thursday, 21 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
12 Selma Sakic, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing
15 for Stanisic Defence this morning.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
17 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 And if there is nothing that we need turn our minds to, the --
20 we'll lower the blinds so that the witness can be escorted back to the
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, sir. You -- you well know the
24 procedure by now, but I'm obliged, for the record, to remind you before
25 Mr. Cvijetic resumes his cross-examination that you're still on your
2 You may resume your seat.
3 WITNESS: ST-197 [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. This morning we'll go through two topics that I believe are
12 relevant, and you've discussed them partly in your examination-in-chief
13 with the Prosecution.
14 I'd like to show you a document from our 65 ter list.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 811. Tab 4.
16 I'm sorry, I made a mistake. We need 65 ter 10501, and it's
17 1D365. 1D365; it's in the Prosecutor's folder, tab 13.
18 Q. This is a document the Prosecution has already shown you, and
19 this is the cover letter for the document we will open. It says that
20 thereby attached is an instruction on how to handle the civilian affairs
21 in the crisis areas, and it's signed by Major-General Milan Pujic.
22 Since you discussed this document, I would just like to turn to
23 the next page to see what is stipulated there. It defines the tasks of
24 the civilian authorities in the commands of the JNA and local commands,
25 and we'll move to the next page immediately to see what it looks like,
1 and then I'll ask my question.
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please.
3 Q. We won't go into details because you've done that with the
4 Prosecution already. Just let's read the subheading.
5 Tasks from the area of state administration, legislative,
6 judicial and executive authority. In December 1991, the Federal
7 Secretariat for National Defence specified in greater detail that the
8 civilian affairs organs in military units would have in the areas that
9 I've just read out. You said you had not had occasion to read this
10 document before, when the Prosecutor asked you; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were shown exactly what these tasks were, and it says that
13 military units, in their respective areas of responsibility, especially
14 during combat operations, have certain powers to take over the role of
15 civilian authorities if these civilian authorities are not operating in
16 your area of activity. Is that written here?
17 A. I saw this document for the first time in my contacts with the
18 Prosecution here at The Hague Tribunal. The first time I was invited,
19 around the 6th of September.
20 When I was a military commander, I never saw that document, nor
21 acted upon it. By reading this document and another attachment to it, I
22 saw that these affairs and activities were brought down to the brigade
23 level so that civilian affairs organs were activated up to brigade level
24 but not lower.
25 Q. Thank you. I won't go into detail because you've done that with
1 the Prosecutor already.
2 Just let me ask you: If, in your area, civilian authorities are
3 not functioning, can that, in any way, affect the combat readiness of
4 your brigade and interfere with the execution of combat missions?
5 A. In all areas where I executed combat operations, civilian
6 authorities were functioning properly so I never encountered this
8 Let me just add one thing. In the process of preparing for this
9 second stage of testimony, I came across information that, at the corps
10 level, General Talic issued an order appointing a civil affairs organ,
11 and that was Colonel Vojin Vojunovic [as interpreted]. I also found that
12 he based his activities in some municipalities in Krajina, for instance,
13 in the municipality of Kljuc. In the area of activities of my brigade,
14 he never showed up, and he never dealt with such issues, and I have to
15 emphasise, once again, in my area of activity, all the civilian
16 authorities were functioning properly. So there was no need for anything
17 like this.
18 Q. Can you just repeat the name of that commander appointed by
19 General Talic?
20 A. Colonel Gojko Vojnovic [as interpreted].
21 Q. All right. I'll move onto the next document.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 10502.
23 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I -- before I -- before we move on, first
24 of all, it would helpful if Mr. Cvijetic would agree that the document in
25 question was not shown first to the witness in September, when he came
1 here, but is referred to in the statement that was made on the 30th of --
2 of August -- August.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: In the transcript the 8th of September,
4 Ms. Korner.
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, no. No, Your Honours. He said he first saw
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, that's right.
8 MS. KORNER: But he didn't, that's what I'm saying. And I'm
9 asking Mr. Cvijetic --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm sorry. sorry. I misunderstood that.
11 MS. KORNER: Sorry, yes, no. He was shown it and dealt with it
12 in the last paragraph, paragraph 18 of the statement that he made. And I
13 see the witness nodding. And ...
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I think we can deal with it easily by asking the witness. I will
16 accept any answer he gives.
17 A. I apologise. What the Prosecutor is saying is true. I made a
18 mistake because my interview was somewhere at the beginning of September,
19 and that's when I was first shown it. I got confused for a moment
20 between two different periods.
21 MS. KORNER: Sorry. And at the moment, it's not exhibited. But
22 perhaps, as you've been asking questions about it, we can have it made an
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's already exhibited. 1D365.
25 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No, it's not.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D365.
2 MS. KORNER: I see Judge Delvoie and I are somewhat surprised by
3 that. It's certainly not on my list as an exhibit, this.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I know exactly through which
6 witness it was exhibited.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I said the 65 ter number, but it
10 has an exhibit number, 1D365.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, Mr. Smith agrees, it didn't appear
12 either on your list or my list, as we gave it an extra outside the --
13 the -- the range of 65 ter.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then we will move on to
16 65 ter 10502.
17 Q. Witness, I'm trying to establish the basis and the origin of that
18 previous document on the basis of what it was adopted. Here before you,
19 you have an instruction for conducting civil affairs in crisis areas.
20 Just let's turn to the last page to see who passed -- who adopted
21 this instruction.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, the last page but one. The
23 last page but one; that's one before this. This is the last page. Now
24 we need the one before. This is it.
25 Q. And we'll stay on this one. Can you just confirm that this
1 instruction was issued by the Federal Secretary for National Defence,
2 Army General Veljko Kadijevic.
3 A. I see a signature here. I don't see -- I don't -- I can't know
4 that it's Veljko Kadijevic's signature. I see it has no stamp. But I
5 can say the same as before. I have not -- in fact, I did not see it at
6 the time, nor did it ever have any effect at any level below the corps
8 Q. Can you just read the second paragraph on the page you're looking
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We can zoom in on the second
11 paragraph for the witness.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. As you see, General Kadijevic prescribes that in areas where
15 civilian authorities are not functioning, pending the establishment of
16 civilian authority, certain steps can be taken by the military. Is it,
17 indeed, what it says?
18 A. I've read it now, and before, and I have already given an answer.
19 That applies to areas where civilian authorities were not functioning,
1 Q. Thank you for that answer. Could you just look at the last
2 paragraph but one.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think from line 18 through to 25
4 needs to be redacted. We're in open session.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree. We can move on and in
6 the future we will not mention the witness.
7 Q. Have you read para 12?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Just a minute. Let me ask you the question.
10 The federal secretary allows for the possibility that a commander
11 improvise on the spot and adapt to the situation on the ground, so this
12 document has the nature of an instruction, giving authority to the
13 commander to decide on the ground on what measures would be appropriate;
14 is that right?
20 You may continue.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you
22 for this warning.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you have
24 observed, I am aware of that and as soon as I think that we need to go to
25 private session I will request that. But I think that is not necessary
2 Let us go back to document -- 65 ter 886.
3 MS. KORNER: Again, I -- I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong,
4 but I don't think this document that you have just been asking the
5 witness about has been exhibited.
6 If I'm wrong, could somebody please tell me.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, but I can tender it and since
8 it is in the context of the previous document I seek to tender it, as I
9 think it's relevant.
10 MS. KORNER: Well, obviously I agree with that.
11 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D388, Your Honours.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now we see 65 ter 886.
14 Q. Witness, we'll deal with this briefly.
15 You say -- or, rather, you commented on this document which was
16 signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Branislav Grujic. And it's an order about
17 the establishment of the defence of the town of Donji Vakuf.
18 As you have just spoken about Derventa and Brod, here, too,
19 military persons were appointed to high posts in the civilian structures,
20 including the judiciary, and so on.
21 Do you not think that the military commanders in this
22 municipality, Donji Vakuf, identified the reasons as outlined in that
23 document and that they have taken over these posts, in accordance with
24 the documents that we've seen?
25 A. I have provided an answer to this matter yesterday, and I stand
1 by it.
2 Q. You doubted the authenticity of the document, but I must warn you
3 that we cannot doubt documents on the 65 ter list. And I must treat this
4 document as authentic.
5 So I asked you about the contents of the document. We heard your
6 opinion about its authenticity.
7 So do you agree with my conclusions that these military
8 commanders actually realised their authorities and in the municipalities
9 without functional civilian structures, military persons were appointed
10 to responsible posts in the civilian structures?
11 JUDGE HALL: Sorry for the interrupting the interpreters. Can
12 the witness fairly be expected to answer that question?
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is one of the type of questions that
14 I've been objecting to, "Do you agree with my conclusions?" He can put a
15 proposition to the witness but not in that form.
16 JUDGE HALL: You can try again, Mr. Cvijetic.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, I put it to you that the military commanders who signed
19 this document acted in accordance with the powers bestowed on them, and
20 the document I showed you, and they appointed military persons to
21 high-ranking persons in the civilian structures. Do you agree with what
22 I'm saying? And was it, indeed, the case?
23 A. I do not agree. Because can I only be responsible for my own
24 acts and not the acts of the commander who drafted this document. Why
25 don't you call him and have him answer your question?
1 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that such an order was issued
2 and that it was in force in the municipality of Donji Vakuf?
3 A. I repeat, that I have commented this order. This order is
4 illegal, starting from the stamp and all through the end. It's dated the
5 19th of June. At that time, military stamps of the JNA were no longer
7 Q. All right. You explained as much yesterday, so we don't dwell on
8 this document anymore.
17 MS. KORNER: And can -- I'm sure, redact the last ...
18 JUDGE HALL: Well, I don't necessarily deem it necessary at this
19 point. I don't know what the rest of your question is. Perhaps it
20 doesn't create a problem. It's for you to indicate, because you would
21 know where you are going.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honours. I will not
23 mention the witness's name. I will deal with a document. Could we
24 please see document 1D04-3091.
25 Q. Can you confirm that you are familiar with this document and that
1 you have reviewed it.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is this document the type of document that you, as a commander,
4 would rely on most while commanding your unit? And is it a document that
5 you should be best familiar with?
6 A. It is one of the rule-books that is most important to me for
7 successful control and command. But there are other rule-books too. I
8 have one on me. I showed it, and activities were more or less carried
9 out, pursuant to that.
10 Q. I'm not sure whether this has an English version. Oh, yes, it
1 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... I think we
2 should move into private session at this point to deal with this line of
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours.
5 Let me just correct the transcript in -- on page 13, line 19, I
6 mentioned order -- I said issue orders and what's recorded here doesn't
7 make much sense.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 16318-16319 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. And the
4 document is admitted as 1D389.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We need the next document,
7 Q. This is a regular combat report sent to the Main Staff of the
8 Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Date: 14
9 June 1992.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2.
11 The page before this. I'll have to provide the ERN number.
12 ERN ... this is the page, in fact.
13 Q. Witness, in this regular combat report, it is stated that in the
14 Prijedor Tactical Group, there are volunteers and the police, among other
15 members. Can you see that?
16 A. Yes, I've read it.
17 Q. At the end of that paragraph, at the bottom, they are given
18 deployment and assignments. Assignments are also given to the volunteers
19 and the police. That's the last sentence. Can you see it?
20 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And can we see the page before
22 this. It has the page number 2; ERN 0086-1633. That's the one.
23 Q. Look halfway down the page, where it says: "Operations Group
25 Have you read it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You can see that this operations group also includes a battalion
3 of the MUP and a tactical group.
4 A. I can see that.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Next page, page number 4,
6 ERN 0086-1635. I think that's the next one.
7 Q. In the last paragraph, can you see where it says level of combat
8 morale, and it describes the heavy losses sustained by a company of
9 reserve police that was involved.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let's just look at the last page to see who signed this document.
12 Who signed this? Look to the left. Obviously one of the
13 officers signed for General Talic, one of the officers of the
14 1st Krajina Corps. Do you agree?
15 A. Yes. This is the stamp of the 1st Krajina Corps, but whose
16 signature this is, I don't know. It's obviously not the signature of
17 General Talic.
18 Q. No dispute about that. Can you agree with me that this is a
19 regular combat report sent, as we can see from the heading, to the
20 Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 and that's at the corps level. The corps is reporting to the Main Staff.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would it be fair to conclude that members of the police were also
24 engaged as part of units of the corps with certain assignments?
25 A. I cannot comment on -- on what General Talic wrote.
1 Q. You don't have to comment. I'm asking you if it's obvious from
2 the report.
3 A. This battalion from the MUP that is mentioned as part of the
4 Operations Group Doboj, I don't know which battalion it is, and for that
5 reason I can't say anything. I can't say what it was all about, and
6 which unit was involved. It would be very thankless for me to comment on
7 the reports sent by my superior further up the chain. I did not see any
8 of these reports, and I'm not prepared to give a proper answer.
9 Q. Is there any reason to doubt that this report is inaccurate?
10 A. I have no reason to doubt or confirm.
11 MS. KORNER: I mean, really, that is, if I can put it, a
12 non-question question. I mean, the witness has said he knows nothing
13 about this report, he hasn't seen it before, and it is no good
14 Mr. Cvijetic trying to get it in by saying, Is there any reason to doubt
15 its accuracy? Although, can I say, if he wants to have it admitted, I
16 have no objection.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I must say I
18 can't help noticing that in his testimony the witness doubts the
19 authenticity of certain documents whose authenticity is really beyond any
20 doubt. But, of course, whatever the Trial Chamber decides. If you want
21 me to, I'll withdraw my question and move on. I will, though, ask that
22 this document be admitted as extremely relevant, in view of the Defence's
23 case concerning the engagement of police units in combat operations.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't follow this at all, I am
25 afraid. I mean, Mr. Cvijetic is really making a speech here. But
1 there's never been in this dispute that police units were fighting. The
2 question is how they came to be there. That's the only question of
3 dispute and this document doesn't assist on that at all. And that's the
4 issue between the Defence and the Prosecution, not the fact that police
5 were engaged in combat operations.
6 JUDGE HALL: Hence, Mr. Cvijetic, if there is no issue as to the
7 fact of police units being engaged in combat operations, is it necessary
8 to exhibit this?
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document
10 mentions something else that I did not refer to yet. You can also see
11 the line of engagement of the police in military operations, and that's
12 an exclusively military line.
13 JUDGE HALL: I assume that, like the previous two documents that
14 were admitted, the -- there being no objection by the other side to
15 tendering them, although the witness has no personal knowledge of them,
16 the relevance is that they go to establish system and method.
17 Is that the position?
18 MS. KORNER: I actually wanted it in for a completely different
19 purpose, which I'm going deal with in re-examination, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D390, Your Honours.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 The next document is 65 ter --
25 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
1 Before you proceed, Mr. Cvijetic, and I'm addressing both
2 counsel, the Court Officer needs to be instructed as to whether it is
3 the -- an instruction from the Chamber, depending on what the parties
4 say, whether these three exhibits should be under seal.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't think so. Well, I suppose
6 it's a question of --
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think there is no need, because
8 even the witness's unit is not mentioned, let alone the witness himself.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we see no need either for them to be
12 under seal.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 Please continue, Mr. Cvijetic.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I'd like to show you a -- 2D46.
17 Here, can you see the command of military post, certain number,
18 order for further operations. And can you see, in the second paragraph,
19 that the military police and a platoon of civilian police also received
20 assignments by this military order, and a directly military assignment
21 was given to the platoon of civilian police. Can you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's just look at the last page to see who signed this.
24 We can't see whether it's a lieutenant-colonel or a colonel, but
25 the last name is Samardzija. Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. I think this answers the objection to my previous document. The
3 question was on whose orders they were engaged in military operations,
4 and here we can see that. Do you agree that an officer with a rank of a
5 commander of the military P.O. box - it's probably a brigade - orders the
6 police to take part in combat operations?
7 A. With your leave, I need some more time to answer this.
8 Q. Can you see the stamp?
9 A. It's a regular municipality stamp, not a military stamp.
10 Q. In the heading of the document it says military P.O. box command,
12 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... the witness
13 wanted to give an answer to the question he was asked. So could we have
14 the answer. The question was:
15 "Do you agree that an officer with a rank of commander of the
16 military orders the police to take part in combat operations?"
17 And the witness wanted to answer that.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if this was
19 interpreted correctly. It was not military police commander. It was
20 commander of a military P.O. box. Let's just see on the first page again
21 which unit it was.
22 Left-hand top corner.
23 A. Yes, can I see that. I don't know that military P.O. box. It
24 was not one of my neighbours. That commander had command only over
25 military police, not civilian police, and I explained that extensively in
1 my interviews with the Prosecution and in my prior evidence. And one of
2 the answers I've given is that we had both trained and untrained
3 commanders. Obviously a trained commander would have never written an
4 order like this, and would never have affixed a stamp of a civilian
5 organisation on it.
6 Q. The point of my question was that he did make such an order and
7 he did engage the civilian police.
8 A. I can answer only for my own actions in the post I occupied.
9 What other people did, I really cannot be expected to explain.
10 Q. Very well. This line of questioning had one purpose only. You
11 have just said -- or, rather, stated your version of the participation of
12 the civilian police in combat operations upon the question of Ms. Korner,
13 and I will put the position of the Defence to you, which you may accept
14 or not.
15 Here it is: The armed forces of the former Socialist Republic of
16 Yugoslavia consisted of the Yugoslav People's Army and the
17 Territorial Defence, as well as any individual who volunteers and goes to
18 the nearest draft office and accepts the rules of military hierarchy and
19 discipline. In the RS, instead of the JNA, the Army of the RS stepped
20 in, and with the Territorial Defence and with the volunteers, it made up
21 an armed force.
22 The police could participate in the execution of combat
23 activities but only pursuant to the rules of resubordination to the
24 military command in charge.
25 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the position
2 of the Defence. I will end by asking the witness whether he agrees with
3 our position.
4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. There were at least three separate
5 questions rolled up into that. I think this must be broken down. The
6 first question is -- just a minute, please, Mr. Cvijetic, and will you
7 see my objection. Whether he agrees that the armed forces of the former
8 Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia consisted of the Yugoslav People's Army
9 and the Territorial Defence, as well as any individual who volunteers.
10 That's the first question.
11 Second question: In the RS, instead of the JNA, the Army of the
12 RS stepped in and with the Territorial Defence, and with the volunteer it
13 made up an armed force. That's the end of the second question.
14 Third question: Could the police participate in the execution of
15 combat activities but only pursuant to the rules of resubordination?
16 So that is three separate questions, please.
17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, did you remember those questions, or
18 did you need to have them repeated by Mr. Cvijetic?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a very broad
20 topic about which I would have to speak for another day, possibly. This
21 has to do with the constitutional matters, the Law on the Armed Forces,
22 the rule-book of service in the army, and so on. This would require us
23 to go back to these matters and see whether they stand or not. But I
24 have put forward my definitive position. I have nothing to add.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept that. I
1 will repeat my question broken up into smaller parts.
2 Q. The armed forces are a whole and consist of the Yugoslav People's
3 Army, the Territorial Defence, and the members of the armed forces.
4 Correction: A member of the armed forces is any citizen, who with a
5 weapon in his hand, or without it, participates in resisting enemy
6 forces. That's how it was regulate in the former SFRY. So I ask you if
7 you agree that this is correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now here's my second question: In war, during imminent threat of
10 war and in other extraordinary circumstances, the police can be used to
11 carry out combat operations of the armed forces in accordance with the
12 law; is that correct?
13 A. The instruction on the use of the Territorial Defence says that
14 in war, the police is an integral part of the TO. Item 6 of the
16 Q. And, now, during the time it carries out combat operations of the
17 military -- of the armed forces, the police is subordinated to the
18 commander who manages the combat operations in question.
19 A. If a unit is attached to such a military unit and subordinated to
20 it, then it carries out relevant tasks. But a condition for that is that
21 everything be legal and covered by orders, legislation, and so on.
22 Q. This is what I have just read out from the regulations setting --
23 laying this out.
24 Thank you, I have no more questions.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I?
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, just one follow-up question. The
6 way the previous question was put to you and the answer you gave to me,
7 make me wonder, it is not the fact of executing combat operations that
8 subordinates a unit to the military, if I understood you correctly, but
9 it is the subordination to the military that permits a unit to be in
10 combat operations.
11 So it's the other way around, if you see what I mean.
12 You first have to be subordinated before you go into combat under
13 military command.
3 (redacted). I did not report to the MUP organs because, as we
4 said yesterday, Mr. Zupljanin, as chief of the Banja Luka CSB, to which
5 that police belonged, and the entire brigade staff were -- were members
6 of the police. So it would have been superfluous for me to inform
7 Mr. Zupljanin additionally, because he was kept up to date daily through
8 his -- through the members of his police units. That unit, as an
9 infantry brigade that was part of a corps, did not carry out tasks from
10 the remit of the civilian police, and that's why the police wasn't
11 informed either. And, anyway, there were people from the CSB who
12 reported along professional lines.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, in other words, the CSB in Banja Luka was
14 kept informed at all times about the activities of the brigade while it
15 was resubordinated to the corps; is that correct?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know how the reporting was done? Did the
18 police officers that you had under you, did they report in writing, or
19 did they send daily combat reports or whatever name these reports might
20 have had?
21 Do you know how they reported back to Mr. Zupljanin?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they informed him.
23 Perhaps through personal contacts, because Mr. Zupljanin was there.
24 Maybe Mr. Zupljanin, along the lines of control and command, informed his
25 minister or any other superiors. I don't know that.
1 But the people who were there, who most of them were inspectors
2 of the MUP and they were in constant contact with Mr. Zupljanin and there
3 was no need for drafting additional reports as we had people present
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.
6 JUDGE HALL: Well, we're at the point where we would take the
7 usual break. So we would lower the blinds so the witness could be
8 escorted from the courtroom.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE HALL: And before -- before we rise, we have been made
11 aware of the concerns of the support staff as to the inconveniences
12 caused by the irregular extensions to the indicated breaks, so we would
13 ask everybody to be back after 20 minute, as we would be.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE HALL: You may be seated, sir.
18 Yes, Ms. Korner, whenever you're ready.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
20 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
21 Q. Sir, I just want to deal with some of the matters you were asked
22 about in cross-examination.
23 First of all, you were asked by Mr. Krgovic, and this is at page
24 16218 following, about the process of disarmament in Kotor Varos. And it
25 was put to you that roads had been cut by members of the opposing forces
1 in -- in Kotor Varos.
2 And I just want to put this in context by looking at a map,
4 MS. KORNER: Could we have up on the screen, it's part of the map
5 book, and it is 10137.2, which was at tab 61 of our documents.
6 Your Honours, I'm not at all clear at the moment, really, what
7 the status of the map books are, whether they have been given exhibit or
8 not as a whole, but at some stage we better try and sort is out, I
10 JUDGE HALL: As I recall, when we last visited this question, I
11 had myself expressed some doubt on the area and I had been corrected in
12 my assumption up to that point, that -- that the entire book had been or
13 would have been exhibited, but it was pointed out to me that from the
14 time we would have started, separate pages had been individually
16 MS. KORNER: Yeah.
17 JUDGE HALL: And -- and I think having started out down that
18 path, we must continue.
19 MS. KORNER: Well, I think probably the answer is, Your Honour,
20 when we filed the bar table motion if we can just throw in the maps that
21 have not already been exhibited as part of that and rather than starting
22 to work out which one are in and which ones aren't yet.
23 Right. Have we got that up? It is 10137.2. All right. Can we
24 sort of focus on Kotor Varos, and I just want to look at the
25 municipalities that Kotor Varos was surrounded by again. Kotor Varos
1 would be where we see YK, if we can focus in. Yeah, thank you, will do.
2 Q. Sir, so Kotor Varos was bordered, first of all, by Celinac, as we
3 can see. To your knowledge was Celinac virtually a completely Serb
4 majority -- I mean, sorry was a Serb majority municipality?
5 A. No. There was no clear Serb majority in Celinac. I cannot give
6 you the percentages, I don't know how many Bosniaks there were. But as
7 far as I know, the village of Mehovci and Gornji Celinac and perhaps some
8 other places were populated predominantly by Muslims. But, again I
9 cannot give you any percentages. I would have to consult statistics.
10 There were Muslims though. I don't know of any town or village populated
11 by Croats though so there was a negligible number of Croats.
12 Q. So the answer is you don't know. Don't worry, we will deal with
13 it through a different route.
14 What about Skender Vakuf? Do you know what the percentages there
16 A. Skender Vakuf, there were two Muslim villages, and the other
17 places were predominantly populated by Serbs.
18 Q. Teslic?
19 A. In Teslic, there were more Muslims and Croats than in the other
20 two municipalities. I cannot give you the exact percentages without
21 statistics, but the majority population were Teslic [as interpreted].
22 Q. Sorry, the majority population is -- sorry. The majority
23 population has come out as Teslic. Did you say something else?
24 A. In the municipality of Teslic, as far as I know, the Serbs were
25 the majority population, followed by Muslims and Croats. They were a bit
1 more numerous, but I again cannot really provide percentages.
2 Q. So the only -- in Travnik was what, largely; do you know?
3 A. In Travnik, the Croats and Muslims were the majority, and the
4 Serbs were the minority. Again, I cannot give you the exact share in the
5 population of any group.
6 Q. As a military man, would it be your assessment, then, with the
7 exception of Travnik, in fact, Kotor Varos was surrounded by areas where
8 the Serbs were in a majority?
9 A. That's difficult to say. Well, yes, if you take municipalities
10 and compare those. And the Serb population there. But Kotor Varos
11 itself was rather heterogeneous if we speak about villages and towns
12 inhabited by Serbs, Croats, and Muslims.
13 Q. Thank you, sir, I'm going to, in fact, next show you a more
14 detailed map of Kotor Varos which is part of the map bundle again. I
15 think it may have been exhibited though.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. KORNER: It's 10236.10.
18 Q. Now, that's a -- a breakdown of the municipality by villages and
19 with the overall majorities in those villages being shown, and we can see
20 also that part of Teslic and Skender Vakuf and, indeed, Celinac appear on
21 the map.
22 Can I just ask you: Are you aware of any disarmament operations
23 being carried out in the village of Maslovare?
24 A. Maslovare, like in all other settlements, was a place where
25 integrated actions were carried out. They were no different from other
1 populated centres. Disarmament was carried out all over the
3 Q. I'm specifically referring to Maslovare. Are you aware of any
4 disarmament operation by the police or the military taken against the
5 village of Maslovare?
6 A. In Maslovare village, the population was predominantly Serbian.
7 When I said it was carried out a moment ago, I meant Siprage. I got a
8 bit confused. But Maslovare was populated predominantly by Serbs and
9 most of those people were already in the Army of Republika Srpska, but
10 the operation applied to the whole territory of the municipality, so in
11 Maslovare, equally, if somebody had weapons illegally in their
12 possession, they were supposed to be disarmed, like anywhere else.
13 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... suppose being the operative word.
14 Well, you mentioned Siprage, hasn't come up clearly on the map.
15 MS. KORNER: Can we move the map up a bit and can you see Siprage
16 on there. No, up, upwards. Sorry. All right. Downwards, I suppose
17 then. I want Siprage which you can see at the bottom of the map. Okay.
18 Don't bother. I don't think it's worth the trouble.
19 Q. Siprage -- yes, yes, go on. That's good. Thank you. Stop.
20 In fact, as we can see, and you have mentioned it was a largely
21 Muslim village; that's right, isn't it?
22 A. Yes. Siprage was predominantly Muslim, but there were Serbs
23 living there as well. So it was a mixed population. Still, with a
24 Muslim majority.
25 Q. Right. Thank you, sir. That's all I'm going to ask about that
2 Now, Mr. Krgovic showed you a map which allegedly showed the
3 positions of the opposing forces, and I believe that was ...
4 MS. KORNER: We better have it up on the screen again. I think
5 it was -- Mr. Krgovic, correct me if I'm wrong, it was 2D07-1171. Is
6 that -- oh, he's gone, so he can't correct me if I'm wrong. All right.
7 Let's --
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MS. KORNER: Oh, 2D116.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
13 MS. KORNER: Sorry. The wrong translation is showing. That's
14 for the next map that I'm going to show the witness. Well, it shouldn't
15 be. It's got nothing to do with it. Yep.
16 Now, I don't -- I don't need to bother about the translation.
17 That can go off the screen so we can try and get the map the right way
18 around. Okay. Oh, is this the one we couldn't get the right way around.
19 I wonder if Mr. Aleksic could hand his over. Okay. I tell you what, if
20 he hasn't got it, I will hand my copy over and we can put it on the --
21 and we can put it in Sanction. Oh, it is in Sanction.
22 If we can go to Sanction. If you can turn the witness's thing to
23 Sanction. Yes, thank you. Has it --
24 Q. Sir, can you see the map?
25 MS. KORNER: No, no. If you turn it into Sanction. If you
1 switch the Sanction thing on. All right.
2 Q. Now, sir, have you ever seen this particular document before?
3 You were shown it by Mr. Krgovic yesterday.
4 A. I saw it yesterday for the first time.
5 Q. All right. Is this in the format that the military maps that
6 would have been produced in 1992 would have been produced?
7 A. In the military regulations, levels of command are strictly
8 stipulated for map making. As far as I can see, the scale is 1:100.000,
9 but in my brigade, all graphic instructions were done on a map, 1:50.000.
10 That's what the regulations stipulated.
11 Q. This one appears to say, if you look at the side, this is
12 1:50.000. It may well be that the simplest thing is I'd like you to have
13 a look, please, at a map.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is simply being done to show
15 what, we suggest, were the military maps that were produced at the time.
16 It was disclosed to the Defence, it comes from the 1st Krajina Corps
17 documentation that was seized in 1998. Can we have up, please, on the
18 screen -- right, again in Sanction. We'll leave it in Sanction, it's
19 quicker. 10553. And there -- the last translation that suddenly came up
20 on the screen should go with this one.
21 Q. Now, sir, have a look at that, if you can see it, and tell us,
22 first of all, whether this is the type of military map that was produced
23 in 1992?
24 A. This is the kind of map that belongs in the category of general
25 map, because there are decisions written into the map, but there are
1 general-view maps that are intended to show the situation in general. I
2 see this as a general map, not a tactical map, defining the decision of
3 the corps command.
4 MS. KORNER: If we -- can we -- is it possible to have the
5 translation of what's written on it by the side or not? Okay, we can do
6 that in -- in e-court.
7 Q. Right. Sir, just so that everybody understands the writing on
8 it, is it headed decision of the command -- commander of the
9 Light Brigades group, military secret. And then approved, Major-General
10 Momir Talic, strictly confidential?
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm -- I'm terribly sorry, but we are facing a
12 problem trying to follow in Serbian, the -- what -- what Ms. Korner is --
13 is reading from. Because it's -- it's very small -- small print on the
14 map, and, therefore, we would need that part enlarged in order to be able
15 to follow.
16 Thank you.
17 MS. KORNER: All right. That part -- that's a good point. I'm
18 not sure exactly where that is on this writing.
19 If you focus, please, on the bit in the middle. Yep. At the
20 top. No. This is going to be a rather tedious and time-consuming
21 exercise, I feel.
22 Q. What I want to know, sir, can I put it this way: The maps that
23 were produced by the corps or -- or -- under which you came, as a
24 military man, were they all in this sort of format, with handwriting on
1 A. Maps are normally made by hand and drawings are made by hand. We
2 have to get one thing clear. This concerns a group of brigades. I see
3 here Petar Spasojevic as the commander. This is to be approved,
4 according to the rules, by the corps commander. We cannot see the
5 signature of General Talic, that he approved the map. (redacted)
10 On this map, I don't see that the decision was, indeed, approved
11 by Corps Commander General Talic or that are it was signed by
12 Petar Spasojevic. So, to me, this is a general-view map. And a general
13 map is meant to be viewed by anyone who comes into that conference room.
14 Q. Right. But all I'm trying to get at is, sir, is that the
15 military maps in use in 1992, whether an overall map like this, or one
16 that deals with the particular area would be handwritten, there would be
17 handwriting on it, and it would be authorised by the -- the corps
18 commander; is that right?
19 A. That's right. All maps - that is, decisions - are to be approved
20 by the superior. And they are all done in hand.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's all I ask. And I'm not
23 asking -- the map has no relevance in itself. So I'm not asking for it
24 to be exhibited.
25 Q. Next ...
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MS. KORNER: Well, quite, Your Honours. At the moment we've had
3 no explanation of what these maps are or how they are produced, and I'm
4 trying to show that the maps that were actually in use do not look like
6 MR. ZECEVIC: With all due respect, Your Honours, we're talking
7 about the maps from two opposing sides, so this witness can give evidence
8 on the maps which are in use in the Serbian army, and this is -- this is
9 the opposing army, so -- the opposing army map, as far as I understood.
10 So I don't see how we can generalise on the -- on the contents and the
11 way how the maps were produced on both sides.
12 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. My understanding was this
13 was allegedly the map produced by Mr. Krgovic. And I see Mr. Pantelic
14 and Mr. Aleksic, sorry, sitting there. It is meant to be a map showing
15 from the Serb side, Bosnian Serb side, nothing to do with the opposes
16 forces. It's meant to be showing the opposing forces, and I understand
17 that -- it seems to be the suggestion is this is map that comes from the
18 time and we don't accept that.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe Mr. Zupljanin Defence
20 can provide with us the explanation because I understood quite contrary.
21 MR. PANTELIC: For the record, Your Honours, we are speaking
22 about this map under the -- that Ms. Korner just made a reference
23 2D07-1171. On the top right part of that map, there is a clear sign that
24 it was issued by the government of Republika Srpska in Bosnia, Republican
25 Secretariat for the Relation with the ICTY.
1 So it is obviously that it's from the archive of this body,
2 whether it's made by the military authorities or not. If -- if
3 necessary, we could take a look on it, but the basis is that a certain
4 position of enemy forces under the command of Raif Alagic on the date of
5 11 of June, 1992 was, at that time, in the region of Kotor Varos. So we
6 really don't know if that is in dispute, this position or former one, you
7 can ask witness and I think he gave quite detailed answer. And frankly,
8 I mean, it's not so important issue. I mean, it's not in dispute between
9 parties that the clashes were on in Kotor Varos and -- June 1992, and
10 simply as that. Thank you.
11 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, there are a number of different
12 points. The first is my understanding was that this was produced
13 absolutely by this organisation in Banja Luka as a representation of a
14 genuine map that was produced at the time to show the position of the
15 alleged opposing forces. And if you will recall, I asked for information
16 about that. And I didn't get any because Mr. Krgovic doesn't know one
17 way or the other, and I'm -- all I'm trying to show at this stage, and
18 we'll make our own inquires, is that the maps are different. And the
19 witness has dealt with that. As to the rest of Mr. Pantelic's
20 suggestions, there is an issue -- not that -- that there were not
21 resistance in Kotor Varos but as exactly how many and how they were
23 However, I've dealt with that point. So if we could move on,
24 please, to a different matter but arising from the same thing.
25 Q. You spoke about Mr. Sadikovic and the book that he wrote. And
1 you volunteered that he said that he had under him five detachments,
2 namely, the 5th Detachment, the 35th, 55th, 84th and 105th. And
3 according to all the establishment regulations, detachments normally have
4 up to 500 men. I don't know if Muhamed Sadikovic had as many men.
5 Now, that's information, is it, sir, that you obtained from his
7 A. I had some of that information even before the execution of
8 combat operations, but not the details of where each detachment was
9 located, what its name was and what its part of the assignment was. I
10 got confirmation after the operation, concerning these details, from the
11 book, from the author, Sadikovic, in the annex, appendix to the book.
12 Q. And you, of course, knew Mr. Sadikovic, didn't you, because you
13 were engaged in the negotiations for Mr. Sadikovic and his men to
25 MS. KORNER: I see ... [Microphone not activated]
1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, page 39,
2 lines 19 through 23, the witness's answer was not quite correctly
3 interpreted. Could the witness repeat? I think he said something
4 different so that I don't have to testify.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes, in fact, I had the same note from my B/C/S
6 speaker as well, that it wasn't correctly interpreted. Which -- the
7 answer from lines 19 through 23 on the previous page. Just a moment.
8 Q. Sir, I -- I'll go back over this. I was asking you whether the
9 information you gave the Court yesterday at page 16236, to 26 [sic] of
10 the transcript about Mr. Sadikovic came from the book and your answer
11 was: I had some of that information even before the execution of combat
12 operations but not the details of where each detachment was located, what
13 its name was and what its part of the assignment was. I got confirmation
14 after the operation concerning these details from the book, from the
15 author, Sadikovic, in the annex, appendix to the book.
16 Now apparently that isn't a correct recording of what you
17 actually said. Is there anything that you want to correct in it?
18 A. That's precisely what I said and I stand by it. There's nothing
19 to change. I saw Mr. Sadikovic for the first time on the 7th of April,
20 1992. And as for these detachments, I said yesterday, and that's it.
21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am really sorry.
22 Perhaps we can listen to the tape. The witness said: I had all the
23 details where the units are, where they are located but I didn't have the
24 numbers, what each unit's -- what each detachment's number was. So he
25 had all the information. He just didn't have the numbers of the
1 detachments. These are two different things.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MS. KORNER: I'm told, Your Honours, that the translation came
4 out as "details" but it was "numbers." That's -- that was the
6 Q. All right. Sir, I'm going ask you one more time about this. But
7 are you sure that you didn't take part in the negotiations that led to
8 the surrender of Mr. Sadikovic and his men?
9 A. I took part in talks with various structures. But directly
10 concerning the surrender of Sadikovic and his men, I did not take part in
11 those negotiations.
12 Q. [Microphone not activated] Now, sir, you did some researches, as
13 you told the Court, and when you came with the documents, before you came
14 back here, and one of the documents we noted that you had got was the
15 report by the military analyst, Mr. Brown, and I'll come back to that in
16 a moment.
17 Did you, yourself, download that from the Internet; if not, how
18 did you get hold of it?
19 A. I didn't know do it myself because I do not have Internet access.
20 I got this at the department for co-operation with the ICTY, and they had
21 downloaded it from the Internet and it was meant as mere information for
22 me to know what he had written. Nothing special.
23 Q. I will come back to that in a moment. I want to stay with
24 Mr. Sadikovic for a moment.
25 Were you aware that Mr. Sadikovic had testified in the case
1 against Radoslav Brdjanin?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Not at all?
4 A. Not at all. Not at all.
5 Q. If you had been aware, in the light of your researches, would you
6 have asked for a copy of that testimony?
7 JUDGE HALL: Ms. -- Ms. Korner, the questions, if so-and-so,
8 always likely to be unhelpful and I suspect that appears to be the case
9 with this question. I don't know where you can go with --
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I won't pursue that.
11 Q. You told the Court today that Colonel Vojnovic had been in charge
12 of morale, and you discovered that, though you weren't aware of it at the
13 time. Did you get that from Mr. Brown's report?
14 A. Colonel Vojnovic was one of the commanders assistants and that
15 was his responsibility. But he was responsible for that for a very short
16 time. And in my zone, he never approached me about this, so I never
17 really learned about this until I was replaced.
18 Q. What I want to know is -- I'm just trying to get at what you,
19 yourself, actually personally knew at the time or afterwards or what you
20 got from Mr. Brown's report. Because that may be important.
21 Now, is that something that you learned from Mr. Brown's report?
22 A. I only saw in Mr. Brown's report that Mr. Vojnovic used to go to
23 Kljuc, nothing else.
24 Q. Yes --
25 A. I wasn't interested in that because Kljuc was way outside my
1 zone. But I read that in that report.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Ms. Korner. Sorry for interrupting. There
3 is a constant mistake and it might turn out to be important.
4 It is recorded as Mr. Vojnovic with O, V-O, and all the time the
5 witness is talking about Mr. Vujnovic. Which is V-U, Vujnovic. So this
6 should be corrected in the whole transcript.
7 Thank you.
8 MS. KORNER: No, thank you, Mr. Zecevic. I agree with that.
9 Q. Sir, all that I want to know is what was the purpose of your
10 obtaining from this so-called centre for co-operation a copy of
11 Mr. Brown's report, and how did you know about Mr. Brown's report?
12 A. I didn't know about it at all. They mentioned it to me. They
13 said they had such a report downloaded from the Internet, and that I was
14 free to read it, to get acquainted with it. But I didn't ask for it
15 because I didn't even know about it. I received another book that was a
16 monography about the VRS. I was given that to read it, and it speaks
17 about the establishment of the army and all the dates, and so on. I got
18 these two books as kind of axillary reading, if you will.
19 Q. Did this so-called centre know that you were a witness here?
20 A. I don't know if they knew. But they -- the -- the people know
21 me. And we spoke about this in general terms, and they merely mentioned
22 they had such a book so I could take it and read it for my information
23 with no special purpose in mind.
24 Q. And did they give you anything else at all?
25 A. They only gave me a book about the VRS, the first volume. It was
1 published on the anniversary of the establishment of the VRS.
2 Q. Is any of the evidence that you have given here over the last --
3 earlier and in the last two days, is any of that simply based on what you
4 read in Mr. Brown's report or the history of the VRS?
5 A. There are no special differences there. All I have said so far
6 matched that. There may have been minor differences in some details.
7 Possibly some regular combat report to the command corps where something
8 is mentioned, but I have seen many of these reports here already so that
9 basically there is nothing new there.
10 Q. All right. I want to -- to move to -- thank you. I want to move
11 a slightly different topic and that's this: You were asked about
12 Lieutenant-Colonel Stevilovic, who was killed in Kotor Varos in July.
13 And it was put to you, in terms, that he had a special unit that was also
14 operated in Kotor Varos, and you said you had never heard such a thing
15 before. Just ask you a little bit more about Stevilovic and the military
17 He was -- you told us he was the colonel in charge of the
18 1st Krajina Corps's intelligence and security. Did that mean he was in
19 charge of the military police?
20 A. He was the security organ. The intelligence organ is something
21 else. He was the security organ, and he was chief of the Department of
22 Security in charge of the use of the military police of the
23 1st Krajina Corps. There was a battalion of the military police, and he
24 was in charge of it as an establishment unit.
25 Q. Right. Now, can you just tell us, what -- was there any
1 difference in the uniform between what a military policeman wore and what
2 a regular member of the army or police wore? What, if anything, would
3 distinguish them as a member of the military police.
4 A. As far as I know, those military policemen only wore white belts.
5 And the rest of the uniform was the same as that of all other soldiers.
6 So the only difference were the white belts.
7 Q. I want to show you a clip of a video because there's a number of
8 different video -- uniforms and I want to see if you can help us with
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is a video that's been disclosed
11 but wasn't on our 65 ter list, but I simply want to show it to the
12 witness because it's a good mixture of uniforms. It's 10555. And it was
13 disclosed with the other videos that were obtained from Banja Luka on the
14 10th of August.
15 We can --
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I may, I believe that this line
17 of questioning by Ms. Korner does not emanate from the cross-examination,
18 so I see no grounds for dealing with this matter.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this arose not out of the
20 Mr. Cvijetic's cross-examination but out of Mr. Krgovic's. So I don't
21 know what Mr. Cvijetic is doing on his feet in the first place. It was
22 specifically put to the witness that at the same time as the special
23 police from Banja Luka were operating, Colonel Stevilovic's, men were
24 operating as a special unit. The witness has denied it, but I think it
25 is important that we see, as he has described, the difference between the
1 types of uniforms.
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I was going to say that having regard to the
3 evidence we have heard over the past months, in terms of this uniform and
4 who is wearing what, if this video is useful to -- to eliminate -- to --
5 not eliminate, sorry, to illuminate that -- that the -- the issues that
6 have arisen there, although it may not have strictly arisen out of
7 cross-examination, this witness could be of assistance. He should be
8 permitted to do so.
9 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honours. Your Honours, the date, I
10 think, appears at some stage on the screen. It's August of 1992. Yes.
11 10th of August, 1992. And for what it's worth, the video shows that it's
12 a place called Karanovac.
13 Q. Sir, do you know where Karanovac is?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you just tell the Court.
16 A. Karanovac is a village which is at the place where the road to
17 Knezevo diverges from the main road, Banja Luka-Jajce. It is from 15, 20
18 kilometres from Banja Luka, southward in the direction of Jajce. That's
19 where the road to Knezevo diverges. There's a bridge over the Vrbas
20 river and that's where the village of Karanovac is.
21 Q. Thank you very much, sir. We'll just play this video, if you'd
22 like to look at it, and we'll pause because I want you to identify it.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MS. KORNER: First of all, can we stop and look at this man. Are
25 you able to say what sort of uniform that is.
1 A. Which uniform do you mean? What the police officers are wearing?
2 Because there are two kinds.
3 Q. If you can tell us, the man in the centre of the picture, wearing
4 a white shirt and what appears to be blue trousers and a blue beret.
5 A. That's a MUP uniform.
6 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MS. KORNER: Okay.
9 Q. Those -- stop, please. We see two people in camouflage. One
10 pointing at the other. Can you tell us what they are?
11 A. Well, judging by their outfit, they are members of the military
12 police in the official uniforms of the VRS. They're wearing the uniforms
13 that the VRS had at the time. And judging by the uniform and the belts
14 they would be members of the military police. Whether they really were,
15 I can't tell. But they could be, if we were to judge by the uniform.
16 MS. KORNER: Let's just see if we can see anybody that's worth.
17 Pause there for a moment.
18 Q. It's not that easy to tell, but are you able to say what he is?
19 A. It's the same kind of uniform as I saw just a minute ago. It's a
20 police uniform.
21 Q. Let's just see if there's anybody else that ...
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. KORNER: Yes, pausing there.
24 Q. There's a man sitting there in white short sleeves with some kind
25 of insignia on his shoulders, and there's another gentleman there sitting
1 next to him. Can you say what they are?
2 A. I don't know the people. I haven't seen this video before. I
3 don't know the people, really.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't know whether we get
5 a closer view of the insignia. There are 1, 2, 3, 4, people in white
6 short sleeves.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Sir, are you able to assist at all, as to what they are?
11 A. I don't know what they are. According to what I know, they are
12 police members, members of the CSB. These are their uniforms.
13 Otherwise, I don't know the persons that we can see in this still.
14 Q. All right.
15 MS. KORNER: And let's just see if there's anybody else. Yes.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. These two; can you tell us?
19 A. The one closer to us or on the right could be a MP member. And
20 the other, I don't know. He may have waited for transportation here. I
21 don't know the man. But obviously he is wearing a uniform, but -- and if
22 you want me to be specific, the uniform he is wearing was manufactured by
23 the Svila company in Celinac, and it differs from the other uniform on
24 the right. Because the army supplied itself from various sources. So
25 one of the uniforms was manufactured by Svila, from Celinac, and the
1 other by Jedinstvo from Vranje.
2 Q. I have to say, sir, that is quite remarkable to be able to do
3 that. All I want to ask is ask this: Is the chap in the middle with the
4 moustache, are you saying he is ordinary military?
5 A. All I can -- the insignia on the left sleeve, I see for the first
6 time now. Army members did not have such insignia. So on second thought
7 he could be a member of the police if this patch reads "police," or
9 Now can I see it and that is why I'm giving this answer. But he
10 doesn't seem to be on duty because he isn't wearing a duty belt. I don't
11 know who this man is, but what I said is based on this patch on his left
13 Q. I just want to see if the video focuses a little bit more on the
14 man sitting down there.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MS. KORNER: Yeah. All right.
17 Q. Having a look at him, sir, had you ever seen him before?
18 A. No, I cannot be certain that I have ever seen him before.
19 Q. Did you have any dealings with any of the people who came from
20 Banja Luka to the crime scene at Mount Vlasic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right.
23 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, that's all I ask about that
24 video. Could that short clip just be made an exhibit.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: If I correctly understood, this video or any part
1 of it is not the part of the 65 ter.
2 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No, it's not.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I think we have the ruling how -- how the --
4 how the exhibits are admitted on the 65 ter list first.
5 MS. KORNER: I appreciate that, and had it not arisen in this
6 way, we would have made an application. But it's been disclosed. I
7 cannot see any prejudice to the Defence in having this. And if anybody
8 wants again to identify various people, it may be the gentleman sitting
9 down will come of some relevance.
10 JUDGE HALL: And the witness's testimony is unintelligible
11 without the video.
12 MS. KORNER: Exactly.
13 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1672, Your Honours.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. Sir --
17 JUDGE HALL: Just a moment, please.
18 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
19 JUDGE HALL: I have been reminded that the procedurally correct
20 thing would be to, first of all, admit it to the exhibit list and then it
21 would migrate into the body of evidence as a properly admitted exhibit.
22 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, I formally apply that the 10555
23 be admitted to our 65 ter list and then be admitted and marked as an
25 JUDGE HALL: Does the Defence raise an objection, if only for the
2 MR. ZECEVIC: No. Because we know the ruling, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HALL: So it is admitted to the exhibit list and then
4 marked and admitted as an exhibit.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Right, sir, I want to just ask you a couple of questions about
7 some documents you were shown again by Mr. Krgovic --
8 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, before we go on. Mr. Witness, in one of the
9 earlier questions - I'm not going to bother to go back to get the exact
10 words that you used - that Ms. Korner put to you as to the -- when we
11 were dealing with this video with the uniforms, you indicated something
12 to the effect that you assumed they were army because of the uniforms
13 that they -- because of what you observed.
14 The -- was it possible in the region at the time for an
15 individual, any individual to just go and purchase uniforms, particularly
16 the camouflage variety; for instance, hunters and persons of -- of -- of
17 that nature? I note, with interest, how you were able in one of your
18 later answers looking at two individuals to identify the manufacturers
19 from the different patterns of the -- of -- of the camouflage uniform.
20 But I confess were it not for that answer I wouldn't have observed the
21 difference myself.
22 But my question is that -- really has to do with how much we can
23 interfere from just looking at uniforms. Do you understand, or should I
24 try to explain my question further?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will be specific. There were
1 various types of uniforms out there, and they were readily available even
2 at the factory that manufactured them. Initially, the Jedinstvo company
3 from Vranje manufactured uniforms, military uniforms. That's the name of
4 the company, Jedinstvo. In parallel, the -- the company named 22nd of
5 December from Banja Luka also started manufacturing uniforms but they
6 were buying the cloth from Pik Vranje. And again, parallel to that,
7 Svila, from Celinac, also started manufacturing uniforms, so you could go
8 there to the factory and buy a uniform. There were various kinds of
9 uniforms as the situation developed. Uniforms were for sale, to be
10 specific, at the Svila factory in Celinac.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, just one clarification, believe the witness
13 said the Svila, Celinac shop, not the factory.
14 Maybe the witness can clarify slowly and then the -- the
15 interpreters can properly interpret.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Celinac, the town which is about
17 15 kilometres away from Banja Luka, there is a factory, or rather there
18 was a factory called Svila. That was its name. There was also a factory
19 outlet which was on the premises of the factory itself. Or you could buy
20 their products, such as women's head-gear but also uniforms because they
21 had a factory outlet.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned Raif Alagic and what you described as his
25 troops. Was Mr. Raif Alagic one of the defenders of Vecici?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, you said you had all this information about him. Do you
3 know what happened to him after the fall of -- the surrender of Vecici?
4 A. I don't know. I think I read about it in Sadikovic's book, in
5 the third part. It says that he got killed. I think I found that
6 information in the book. But I really don't know what happened to him.
7 If you think that the information in the book is correct, then you can
8 accept it, just as I did. Otherwise, I don't know.
9 Q. Well, sir, I can't give evidence one way or another and I haven't
10 read Mr. Sadikovic's book. But what I'm trying to ask you about is you
11 say that Mr. Alagic, as far as you were concerned, was this great big TO
12 commander about whom you had a lot of information. But you weren't aware
13 that he was in Vecici, and you weren't aware until you read
14 Mr. Sadikovic's book that he had been killed; is that right?
15 A. No, I didn't. I first got that information from that book. If I
16 can remember correctly, it said that Raif Alagic got killed.
17 Q. I want to ask you a couple of questions about some of the
18 documents you were shown, I believe this time by Mr. Cvijetic. Document
19 which was 1D00-3071. I think. Which may now be an exhibit. Or was
20 already an exhibit.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you. 2D119.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I'm reminded this is a confidential
1 MS. KORNER: Oh. Then it shouldn't go on the screen. Oh. Not
2 sure how to deal with this. I think it just shouldn't be shown on the
3 screen. Yes. Thank you.
4 Q. You were asked a number of questions about this document and in
5 paragraph 2 the various people who were appointed to this particular
6 police brigade.
7 Was it you -- you who made those appointments -- this should
8 be --
9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, could we go into private session. I'm
11 [Private session]
11 Page 16359 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MS. KORNER: 2D121.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE HALL: Again, Ms. Korner, this is a confidential document.
10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... not on the screen,
12 Q. Now, in paragraph 6 of this report, it says:
13 "Due to being impossible to ensure the food for the brigade
14 members who took under control the lines of the 3rd Battalion of the RSK
15 police brigade ..."
16 So was there a police brigade also from the -- the -- the
17 Krajina -- the Republic of the Serb Krajina, which is, of course, over
18 the border?
19 A. It was a kind of in-between land where there was also the police
20 of the RSK that took part in cutting through the corridor. That unit was
21 withdrawn, and that's why two platoons were supposed to take up positions
22 in these two areas for reenforcement purpose.
23 So, yes, that was a units that was left over from the breaking of
24 the corridor.
25 Q. So all that I'm trying to get at is there was joint operation
1 involving also the RSK police brigade.
2 A. It was part of the well-known operation of breaking open a
3 corridor, and a number of units from the Republic of Serbian Krajina took
4 part. A lot has been written about it, and there's nothing new to add.
5 Q. And then, finally, one of the last documents you were shown by
6 Mr. Cvijetic, which is one of the combat reports. The last one that was
8 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid I can't remember what the exhibit number
9 was. It was the very last one.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. KORNER: 1D390. Thank you. Your Honour was there long
12 before me.
13 Q. You were asked about the police brigade in Doboj. But I would
14 like to look at the entry on the first page about half way down which
15 says there have been armed conflicts in the Kotor Varos area.
16 Where most of the enemy forces have been disarmed. And this is
17 dated the 14th of June, three days after the takeover.
18 Does that agree, because you were in the area of Kotor Varos
19 during that time, does that accord with your recollection of events?
20 A. That's it, those are the events that were unfolding at the time,
21 according to the report.
22 Q. Yes. But I'm concentrates on this. It says in this report,
23 which I appreciate you say you haven't seen before:
24 "Most of the enemy forces have been disarmed."
25 And I'm asking you if that accords with your recollection of the
1 situation on the 14th of June, 1992?
2 A. No, it does not accord. This is a corps report. I don't know
3 who wrote it and I don't know what that person meant by most of the enemy
4 forces. It's a document that I did not write myself, and I can hardly
5 give you an opinion on why it was written that way or who wrote it.
6 Q. No. But -- all right. Who would have provided to the author of
7 this report which went out under General Talic's name to the --
8 JUDGE HALL: Could he answer that question, Ms. Korner?
9 MS. KORNER: Yes, he is one of the brigade's -- I'm sorry, are we
10 in private session?
11 No. Can we go into private session.
12 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE HALL: And I repeat for the record in open session what I
1 would have said. You are now released as a witness and we wish you a
2 safe journey back to your home. Thank you, sir.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE HALL: And we take the 20-minute break at this point.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, there is one preliminary matter I
9 would like to raise in respect to the coming witness.
10 Namely, we received the -- late yesterday or actually this
11 morning, I received the proofing note by our friends from the Office of
12 the Prosecutor, and that proofing note on its first page, paragraph 4,
13 and -- and 5 seems to suggest that the witness changed his position or
14 his statement after the meeting with the -- or interview connected --
15 conducted by two Defence teams.
16 However, Your Honours, the truth is the following: We met the --
17 and interviewed the witness at 2.15 on the 19th of -- of October. At the
18 beginning of the interview, the witness had in his hand his statement
19 given in 2004. He said that he was reviewing his statement that morning,
20 and that statement contained in the margins already his comments and
21 changes he intended to make. If I correctly remember, he said, I made
22 the changes until the page 74. Because that was the time he had
23 available that morning. And I said, I -- I specifically asked the
24 witness, Did you made [sic] the Office of the Prosecutor aware that
25 you -- that you are making the changes to your statement? He said, Yes.
1 He said, I was talking -- I don't -- I don't -- I didn't ask whom he was
2 talking to. He says, I was talking, I made them aware that there has
3 been a number of changes in the statement while I was reviewing it.
4 So the suggestion which is contained in the proofing note does
5 not entirely correspond to the actual situation, how it happened.
6 So, therefore, I suggest that my learned friend raise this with
7 the -- with the witness once the witness is brought in.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic -- Mr. Zecevic.
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, for the record, Ms. Korner and
11 Mr. Sakic have left the courtroom, and I'm Tom Hannis along with
12 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
13 I'm not sure how to respond to this. The change that I'm most
14 concerned with that the witness has brought to my attention when he came
15 back and spoke with me on the 20th of October, relates to something that
16 is at page, I think, 89 or 90, and the changes that he had made to his
17 statement, he did not advise me of any of those changes that he made by
18 handwriting in the margins until after he had met with the Defence for
19 the first time. And I -- that's -- that's -- I'm only recounting what
20 was told to me and the order in which those events occurred.
21 If you want to hear anything further on that, I'm ready to
22 address you, but I had one procedural matter that I wanted to raise
23 before the witness is brought in, and I need to do that in private
25 It relates to Witness ST-218 who was here, I think, last week.
1 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
7 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, our next witness is
8 Dobrislav Planojevic. He is Witness ST-220. And there are no protective
9 measures requested.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Planojevic. First of all, do
12 you hear me in a language you understand?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I understand.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your
15 testimony. You are about to read the solemn declaration by which
16 witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I need to point out that
17 the solemn declaration that are you about to make does expose you to the
18 penalties of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to
19 this Tribunal.
20 Now, then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the
21 solemn declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: DOBRISLAV PLANOJEVIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, sir, could we begin by asking you to state
4 your full name and your date and place of birth.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dobrislav Planojevic, born 22nd
6 August 1955, in Zakomo, near Rogatica.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. And what is your ethnicity,
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your profession today?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Inspector of quality control of the
12 regional BH Pak [phoen], Pale.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And what was your occupation in 1992?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the police.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Now, sir, is this your -- the first
16 time you testified before this Tribunal?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did you ever testify in a court of your country
19 about these matters, the war in 1992?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified before the State Court
21 in BH, in the case Prosecutor against Lalovic and Skiljevic.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Very well. Let me then explain to you briefly
23 how the proceedings unfold here in this Tribunal.
24 You have been called as a witness by the Prosecution who is
25 sitting to your right, and the Prosecutor asked, all together, for four
1 hours, if I take the list we got, and five hours if I take the list of
2 documents you provided with us, Mr. Hannis.
3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I think I had drawn it from the
4 original decision that it was five hours. Yes, I'm looking at, sorry,
5 the decision of 22 July 2010, at page 10, ST-220. It says the
6 Trial Chamber would allow five hours, but I would indicate to you I
7 expect to take much less, more in the neighbourhood of three hours.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 After the examination-in-chief, counsel for Mr. Stanisic, sitting
10 to your left has asked for five hours as well to cross-examine you. And
11 after that, the Zupljanin Defence will cross-examine you equally, but we
12 didn't get any time estimate for that. Is it --
13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing in mind that
14 my colleague Mr. Zecevic will conduct most of the cross-examination, we
15 reserve the right to take half an hour, not more.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic asked for six. Okay.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
19 When we are through all this, Mr. Planojevic, we'll give the
20 floor back to the Prosecutor, who will have the probability to re-direct
21 to put some more questions to you and after that, eventually, the Judges
22 would have some questions, and we then would complete your testimony.
23 As a practical matter, the recordings are taken on tape, and
24 these tapes have to be changed all 90 minutes, so after 90 minutes, we
25 take a 20-minute break, and we normally sit from -- from 9.00 to quarter
1 to 2.00 every day.
2 So, today, we still have three-quarters of an hour left for
3 today's hearing. That's all I have to say. Thank you very much.
4 And I'll give the floor to Mr. Hannis for the Prosecution.
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Before I begin my
6 questions, I just want to state on the record one matter concerning
7 logistics with this witness.
8 He was advised of the possibility that we might not finish his
9 evidence by the end of the day on Friday, earlier in the week. Now that
10 seems quite likely, given the estimates and our late beginning time. At
11 that time I had asked him when I thought that we would be resuming on
12 Tuesday if he would want to stay the weekend and come back on Tuesday, et
13 cetera. Now I understand we won't be resuming until Thursday next week
14 and that may change his ideas about whether he wants to stay or go home,
15 and I just say that out loud so he can be aware of it and discuss it with
16 victim and witness. Thank you.
17 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Planojevic. I wanted to begin by asking you
19 a little bit about your professional background.
20 You told the Judges what you were doing in 1992. I guess it's
21 fair to say that you, in your career, have been a professional policeman?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you tell the Judges about how that came to be, what
24 education did you have, when did you do that, and briefly, if could you,
25 tell us about the various police jobs you held from the start of your
1 police work until 1992.
2 A. I can do that.
3 I completed the secondary school for internal affairs in Sarajevo
4 in 1973. I went on to the higher school for internal affairs in
5 Belgrade, and that was in 1982 that I finished. And then I went to the
6 Faculty of Security and Social Self-Protection, finishing in
7 February 1986.
8 After finishing secondary school in 1973, I started to work at
9 the police station on traffic control duty in Sarajevo, and I did that
10 until the 1st February 1974 which is when I moved to the city SUP,
11 Sarajevo, taking up duties in crime prevention. I continued to work
12 there until I left to attend higher school in 1979.
13 Upon my return, I continued to work in the city SUP on duties
14 involving elicit trade, or trafficking, until March 1982.
15 I moved then to the Municipal Secretariat for Internal Affairs in
16 Novo Sarajevo, again in crime prevention.
17 On the 1st of January, 1984, I became assistant commander for
18 crime prevention in the police station Novo Sarajevo, and I continued in
19 that job until the 1st of February, 1985.
20 From that time on, I was chief of crime prevention an
21 investigation until September 1987. That is the time when I was assigned
22 to become chief of public security in the same police station and stayed
23 in that job until the 14th of April, 1984.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Municipality Assembly of
1 Novo --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Planojevic, the interpretation of the dates
3 when you held the job as chief of public security was recorded as being
4 until the 14th of April, 1984. I suppose it would have been 1994.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm -- I did not make a mistake.
6 It was 1984. It's the same as written in the documents. Maybe you did
7 not notice.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: We saw that. But I thought that you would were
9 going ahead chronologically in describing your career. That is why I was
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I see correctly, I followed the
12 chronology accurately.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please carry on.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Planojevic. I think some of the confusion came
16 earlier at page 68 you were recorded as saying that you were --
17 A. I'm sorry, my mistake. It's not 1984; it's 1988.
18 Q. Thank you. Please continue.
19 A. As I was saying, that's when I became municipal secretary,
20 because public security stations were called then Secretariat for
21 Internal Affairs, and I became head of that secretariat of Novo Sarajevo.
22 Towards the end of 1989, I remained practically in the same position but
23 no longer as a secretary, but as chief of the public security station.
24 It was just a change of name after the reorganisation. And until 1991, I
25 remained chief of the Novo Sarajevo station.
1 Early in June 1991, I became commander of the police station in
2 Marin Dvor, which is Centar municipality and stayed there until the 4th
3 of April, the outbreak of the war.
4 Q. Thank you. Let me stop you there and ask you a couple of
5 questions after Mr. Zecevic says what he has to say.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. Something was brought to my
7 attention for the previous witness, and it concerns the media report by
8 SENSE news agency and if we could go in the private session, please.
9 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Planojevic, I should explain to you as a matter
2 of courtesy that what just happened had nothing to do with you. It's
3 just that the nature of a trial involves not only receiving testimony
4 from a witness but very often procedural matters have to be dealt with by
5 Trial Chamber. And it so happened that the matter with which we had to
6 deal was one thing that had to be dealt with urgently. And because it
7 did not concern your testimony at all, we thought it advisable that you
8 be escorted from the courtroom. As I said, we intended no disrespect to
9 you, and we apologise for the minor inconvenience.
10 Yes, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you for that, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Planojevic you had just told us about how you went from your
13 position as chief of the Novo Sarajevo station to go to Marin Dvor. I
14 think that's two words, Marin Dvor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in June 1991 as commander of the police station. As I
17 understand the hierarchy, that -- that's not -- that would not be viewed
18 as a promotion or even a lateral move; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell us why that happened or your understanding of why
21 that change took place?
22 A. After the multi-party elections in the end of 1990, political
23 parties already had quite some influence, as usual, and practically in
24 all stations, there occurred changes in staffings. I was thinking about
25 leaving the police altogether and registered a private company, because I
1 was thinking, especially after seeing who became minister, that there
2 wouldn't be much law in law enforcement anymore. The Law on Internal
3 Affairs made it possible at the time, after 20 years of service with
4 special credit in terms of pension, to retire. However, I did not
5 succeed in that, and that's how I found myself commander in the
6 Marin Dvor police station.
7 Q. Let me follow up with a few questions about that.
8 Before 1990, or before 1991, were you the member of any political
10 A. I was a member of the League of Communists up until 1990, I
11 believe. I haven't been with any political party since, up to this day.
12 Q. Yeah. And during that period before 1990, that was basically the
13 party that anyone could be a member of?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Who replaced you in Novo Sarajevo?
16 A. Milan Komljenovic.
17 Q. Did he have any prior police experience; do you know?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What work had he done before?
20 A. I couldn't tell. I know that he is a lawyer by profession.
21 Q. Was he a member of any political party?
22 A. I'm not sure, so I'd rather not answer.
23 Q. You said in your answer at page 71, line 5, that you were
24 thinking about leaving the police altogether. Because you were thinking,
25 especially after seeing who became minister, there wouldn't be much law
1 in law enforcement anymore.
2 The person who became minister that you're talking about there is
3 Mr. Delimustafic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you tell the Judges why it is that you thought there
6 wouldn't be much law in law enforcement anymore with him as minister?
7 A. I can only tell you what I knew at the time about Delimustafic
8 without any consequences.
9 Q. Yes, yes, briefly, if you can.
10 A. I knew the man from before. He used to be a police officer, and
11 then he was dismissed from the police after a disciplinary -- after
12 disciplinary proceedings. Then he engaged in private business.
13 In an investigation in 1985 - police investigation - we worked on
14 a case, and he was one of those arrested, as a result of that
16 Q. And --
17 A. Should I explain some more why he was arrested? I don't know if
18 it is necessary.
19 Q. Let me ask you a few specific questions perhaps.
20 Did you personally have a role in the investigation that led to
21 Mr. Delimustafic's arrest at that time?
22 A. When you lead an investigation involving a larger number of
23 persons, the investigation took about half a year and five or six
24 criminals were arrested. They were an organised group.
25 Q. Do I take it by your answer that you actually led that
2 A. It had to be under my control because it -- the launching of the
3 investigation required my signature. I was chief at the time. And I
4 directed the entire investigation. The terminology we used at the time
5 was different so we didn't call it an investigation then.
6 Dragisa Kujacic, Ismet Bajramovic, also known as Celo, and others were
8 During the execution, we were told by them that they were paid to
9 set the car belonging to a detective on fire, a detective who used to
10 prosecute them.
11 Q. Let me ask you a couple of other specific questions. What was
12 the general nature of the investigation? Was this public corruption,
13 economic crime? How would you characterise it?
14 A. I can tell you the following. There was a case of aggravated
15 robbery, one rape, several instances of breaking and entering with
16 theft - burglary, that is - and he was involved only due to the
17 information that we received that he was the one who paid two others to
18 set that car on fire.
19 Q. Let me ask you: Was he specifically charged with a crime?
20 A. He was charged and he was in detention for 30 days. I'm not sure
21 how it -- how the case ended eventually.
22 Q. Well, do you know whether or not he was convicted?
23 A. I don't know. Believe me.
24 Q. Could he have become the minister or the secretary of the
25 interior if he had had a criminal conviction for a crime like that?
1 A. Not under the law. But those were times when apparently anything
2 was possible.
3 Q. Was -- do you know, was Mr. Delimustafic aware, in 1991, that you
4 had played a role in the investigation that led to his arrest and
5 detention back in 1985?
6 A. That's something I don't know either. You can believe me.
7 Q. Who was the person that would have -- or could have approved your
8 request to retire in 1991 or 1992, when you were thinking about it?
9 A. Since it was already centralised, we all belonged to what was
10 called secretariats of the interior then, the minister was in a position
11 to do so.
12 Q. And I think you told us earlier you were not able to retire at
13 that time; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you complain to anyone about your demotion, or your move from
16 being the chief in Novo Sarajevo to being the commander in Marin Dvor?
17 A. This requires a broader explanation. So if you allow, I will
19 Q. Please, as briefly as you can. Thank you.
20 A. At a breakfast at the journalists' club, Vito Zepinic, the
21 then-deputy minister; Momcilo Mandic, the then-assistant minister; and
22 Mico Stanisic, secretary of the city SUP, and I met. In that
23 conversation, since Vito was also in charge of personnel affairs on
24 behalf of the Serb side practically, and the conversation was about my
25 appointment as inspector for crime prevention and detection in the MUP
1 HQ, Vito had earlier worked where I also had worked, in Novo Sarajevo, so
2 we knew each other very well, it was promised to me then. But Kemo
3 Sabovic informed me in mid-May that I was supposed to become commander at
4 Marin Dvor. I went to pick up the decision to that effect, and I was
5 dissatisfied. I gave Sabovic a short account of what had been agreed
6 upon, and he advised me to go and see Zepinic again. I wasn't able to
7 meet him. Allegedly, at the time he was present at a government meeting.
8 On the following day, he also didn't answer my phone call, so I
9 called up Momcilo Mandic, because it was clear at the time who was in
10 charge of what, or who decided upon whose fate. For the Muslims there
11 was Alija; for the Serbs, there was Vito and so on.
12 Mandic received me. There was Bruno Stojic there, and they were
13 having breakfast in his office. There was also Hilmo Selimovic. I also
14 tried to convince them to appoint me, according to my wishes, because I
15 didn't feel like going to Marin Dvor. Momo, in a half-joking manner -
16 that was his way - he said, Just you go to Marin Dvor, you're a good
17 Serb. Whereas, Selimovic made a comment as to -- made a comment that I
18 had fared well as compared to some other old colleagues of ours who ended
19 up somewhere in the outskirts, the periphery and that's how I went to
20 Marin Dvor.
21 Q. From your earlier answer I understood you remained there until
22 about the 4th of April, 1992; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct. Until about 10.30 p.m.
24 Q. Before I get into the details of that, were you aware of a
25 dispatch that had been sent out by Momcilo Mandic, Mandic, on the 31st of
1 March, calling on Serbs in the -- in the BiH MUP to -- to come join the
2 newly created Serbian MUP? Did you see it or hear about it at that time?
3 A. I know of the dispatch. It said that the Ministry of Interior
4 would be divided into a Serb component and a Muslim, or Croatian,
5 component, and that the headquarters would be at Vrace. That was around
6 about the same time when the Cutileiro Plan about the possible
7 cantonisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina was a topical affair.
8 Q. Were you also aware that the -- the same day or shortly after the
9 following day of Mr. Mandic's dispatch that Mr. Delimustafic sent out a
10 dispatch telling employees of the Secretariat of the Interior that if
11 they left to join a newly created MUP that they would lose their jobs in
12 the current BiH Secretariat of Interior. Did you know about that?
13 A. I don't want, sir, to lie to you. I cannot be specific about
14 that. I have a hard time remembering.
15 Q. Okay. On the 4th of April, at 10.30, you started to tell us
16 about where you were and -- and what happened. Do you want to continue
17 from that point?
18 A. I can, but maybe it wouldn't make such sense unless I continue to
19 say what had already happened by at that time. But I can continue,
20 starting from the 4th. That's not a problem either.
21 Because it's very important what preceded the 4th. Because
22 that's more important than what actually happened on the 4th itself.
23 Q. Well, let me -- let me make a request of you and advise you we
24 have been in trial over a year. The Judges have heard a lot of evidence
25 about what happened leading up to that time, and Defence counsel will
1 have an opportunity to let you talk about that some. But because I have
2 a time-limit on how much can I spend with you, for now, I would request,
3 if you could tell me what happened on -- on April 4th. Thank you.
4 A. All right. Due to the overall situation, which had already
5 become unsupportable, we - that is, the executives of the police
6 station - would be on duty shifts for 24 hours. On the 4th of April, I
7 was the duty officer at the Marin Dvor police station. Then
8 Nedeljko Codo, a friend, called me up. Actually we were neighbours. We
9 had neighbouring apartments at the seaside. We're not really good
10 friends. He said to me that the Green Berets - that is, about half a
11 dozen uniformed and armed persons - had -- had stolen his entire revenue
12 from him. At that time, the amount involved was a couple of billion
13 dinars, so you would have to convert it to know how much it is. But it
14 was a large sum. It happened in the territory for which the police
15 station of Marin Dvor had responsibility.
16 I reacted by sending six or seven police officers to go to the
17 site to try and find out what had happened and see whether they could
18 find the perpetrators. One of the assistants, Suad Kadric, went along
19 with the police officers. I received feedback from them that they were
20 unable to find out anything, so I told them to return to the police
22 When they arrived, they had a civilian with them. He was
23 carrying an automatic rifle, a Kalashnikov rifle, as it was called. They
24 briefed me that they had seen the man walking the streets with the rifle,
25 which was not really a common sight, to put it very mildly, or actually
1 it was inconceivable. That was at Kosevsko Brdo, that is a neighbourhood
2 above the brickworks.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis.
4 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where are we going with this?
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we're going with the chronology of how
7 he came to join the RS MUP. I can try and speed him along with some
8 specific questions.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do. Because -- let's get to the point.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 Q. After speaking with this man, did you learn any information that
12 caused you concern that something bigger than just one man walking around
13 with a rifle was happening that night of April 4th?
14 A. He was a Bosniak who stated that he had been issued a rifle at
15 the Car pub on Kosevsko Brdo, and it was his task to secure the Centar
16 municipality building with another nine men. And I asked him, Who could
17 have give -- who could have given that you task? Because I'm the
18 commander of the police station. That's my job. And he said to me that
19 the president of the then-Executive Committee, the man's last name is
20 Cengic, I'm not sure about his first name, that they were supposed to
21 assemble in front of the -- that municipality building at 2200. Then it
22 was clear to me that something unforeseen was happening.
23 Q. And --
24 A. And I immediately left the police station and asked a police
25 officer, a Serb, to drive me home.
1 Q. And after that, did you attempt to get in contact with your
2 fellow Serb police officers and -- and superiors in the area to learn
3 what might be happening; and, if so, what did you find out?
4 A. I first called out the Novo Sarajevo police station to check
5 whether there was anything -- anything happened there, because I had been
6 there long. I found out that nothing was happening there. Then I
7 continued to my apartment.
8 Upon arrival, the phone rang and I answered it, but nobody spoke
9 on the other side. At one moment I was able to discern a typical noise
10 produced by a radio station so I thought somebody was calling me from a
11 police station. Then a voice said, Disconnect the line. And then it was
13 I called a couple of colleagues in some other police stations and
14 inquired whether there was anything out of the ordinary, because I was
15 asking myself whether I was imagining things, that there would be
16 unwanted consequences.
17 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I have been asked to alert
18 you that there is a procedural matter we want to raise before we end the
19 day. I don't know if you want to do it now or I can continue for a
20 couple of minutes with him.
21 JUDGE HALL: Of course, we have to vacate this courtroom at 1.45.
22 Mr. Planojevic, as was explained to you, your testimony will
23 continue tomorrow. We have to raise shortly in order to make the
24 courtroom available for another trial. I am to remind you that having
25 been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any communication with counsel
1 from either side and in such conversations as you may have persons
2 outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony in this
4 So the usher will now escort you from the courtroom while we deal
5 with certain preliminary [sic] matters before we rise for the day in
6 three minutes.
7 Thank you, sir.
8 Tomorrow at 9.00. Thank you.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And I'm sorry for that. I will try to
12 speed up with the witness when we resume tomorrow.
13 The issue I was asked to raise with you had to do with the
14 adjudicated facts or the stipulations and agreed facts. Ms. Korner has
15 indicated to me that there's -- we need some clarification about what you
16 wanted filed. It's not only the ones pertaining to, I think, Visegrad,
17 but to all the ones that we've reached prior to today, and I think that's
18 our understanding but we wanted to say on the record to make sure it was
20 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
21 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Aleksic --
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Aleksic.
23 MR. HANNIS: Or --
24 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, the instruction was the following: The
25 Trial Chamber, therefore, directs the party first to file with the
1 Chamber, no later than Friday of this week, a notice setting out in full
2 the stipulations that have already been reached; for example, in relation
3 to events in Visegrad.
4 Now, my understanding -- I thought the very same that
5 Your Honours would like that we -- that we combine everything, and on
6 Wednesday we -- we give the full position of the Defence on each and
7 every municipality or each and every adjudicated facts, except for the
8 three that we have to give tomorrow. For the three witnesses, that --
9 that we need to give tomorrow.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: No. It would -- it would be helpful if all
11 the -- the -- the facts that you are -- that you agreed upon, already,
12 could be given to us so that we could work with -- with them before
13 Wednesday eventually. If we could. We are in the dark here.
14 So if -- unless that's too big an effort to ask, that's what we
15 would like to have. Everything you already agreed upon. We -- we -- we
16 understand, without knowing for sure, that there is already an agreement
17 about Visegrad. Perhaps there are others. Can we have it, or is it a
18 secret between parties until Wednesday?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, it is no secret between the parties. But
20 the parties would appreciate if we could only have one motion and not a
21 series of motions. That is actually our -- our suggestion.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, you are -- you're talking about a
25 motion. It's not a formal motion we need. It's just knowledge we need.
1 We would like to know, not in the form of a formal motion. Can be a
2 simple notice. Would that help?
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm sorry. I thought the instruction of
4 yesterday was that we filed a joint motion of both parties or all three
5 parties. That is what --
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Joint notice.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, okay. I understand.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: So we will get a joint motion -- sorry, notice
10 for tomorrow? Could it be done?
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. For -- for the three witnesses which are
12 supposed to come next week, yes. Well, that was the ...
13 MR. HANNIS: That was the primary concern for us was to get any
14 agreement we can about that so we can know for scheduling for next week.
15 But I understand Judge Delvoie's desire to have all of them as soon as
17 I don't know how many there are.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis, the trick is that the Chamber is also
19 working to solve these issues and the more information we get, the more
20 able we are to -- to start working on the remaining 92 bis witnesses.
21 So it would be helpful to our work if we could have not only the
22 three witnesses that are scheduled for next week, but also whatever other
23 agreement you may have reached upon.
24 MR. HANNIS: I appreciate that.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: If this is not too much to ask.
1 MR. HANNIS: I anticipate that what you will get tomorrow is
2 something less than what you'll get Wednesday, because hopefully Monday,
3 Tuesday, the parties will have some additional ones beyond what we have
4 so far.
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
6 So we take the adjournment until 9.00 tomorrow morning.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of
9 October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.