1 Tuesday, 9 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. DOBBYN: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Office of the
13 Prosecutor, Gerard Dobbyn, with Senior Trial Attorney Tom Hannis, and
14 Crispian Smith.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and
16 Eugene O'Sullivan, appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
18 Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 Does anyone have any matter to raise before we -- yes,
21 Mr. Zecevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I informed the Registrar that there
23 is a matter I would like to -- I would like to get the guidance from the
24 Trial Chamber.
25 Namely, during the site visit, Your Honours, when we were taken
1 to the technical school in Karakaj, some -- some pictures were taken and
2 a video. However, it appears that the left side of the building, where
3 the work-shop is, there is no official video or no official pictures of
4 that part. Now, the witness yesterday explained that the entrance to the
5 place where the -- where the -- where the prisoners were kept is exactly
6 that part of the building.
7 Now I wanted to -- to clarify this with the witness during my
8 cross-examination. The only thing I have are my photographs which I
9 took. However, the problem is that on these photographs, there are some
10 people from -- from -- from the group that went on the site visit, and --
11 and -- and Judge Harhoff. Now, I know Your Honours' reluctance to -- and
12 I understand to introduce these kind of documents from the site visit,
13 and I -- and I fully appreciate and understand. I tried to talk to the
14 Registry whether it would be possible that the IT blurs the faces or --
15 of everybody who is on the picture so we can have just the picture of
16 the -- of the space which was taken. And they confirmed that it's
17 possible. But it wasn't possible overnight, of course.
18 Now, I'm in the hands of Your Honours. I would like to show this
19 to the -- to the witness, and maybe after that, we can decide how to --
20 to deal with that. Maybe MFI the document and then re-do this -- this
21 deleting of the -- of the -- of the persons who are appearing on the
22 photograph and then reintroducing it as evidence. That -- that was the
23 best solution I could think of.
24 JUDGE HALL: Do I understand the problem to be that no other
25 photograph of this angle of the school exists, save for the one that you,
1 yourself, took.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... reminding yourself of
4 what we had indicated about a fortnight ago that it is only in
5 exceptional circumstances that photographs which were only produced
6 during the site visit would be admissible. And you're saying that this
7 would fall within that exception, because no other such photograph
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I think it does, because if
10 you -- if you remember, during the site visit we were -- it's a
11 relatively big building, the technical school in Karakaj, and we went
12 first to the gym and then to some other possible places, rooms were
13 allegedly were -- where prisoners kept; and however, it appears that none
14 of the -- none of these other rooms that we saw are the actual rooms. It
15 appears as -- as far as I could understand this witness, that, precisely,
16 this room which I intend to show the photos of are the rooms where --
17 where the prisoners were kept. And I think it's relevant and I think it
18 will fall into the exception.
19 JUDGE HALL: Did the Registry indicate how long this technical
20 manipulation to blur the images would take?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, they told me it will take probably 48 hours,
22 to be on the safe side.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: What turns on this matter? Is there any doubt
24 about where the rooms were and -- and with where the entrance was?
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, if Your Honours have no doubt that those are
1 the -- the actual rooms, I don't -- I don't need to -- to lead the
2 evidence in -- in the respect with the witness.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. That's exactly what was my understanding
4 because we have the witness's testimony, he showed us where the entrance
5 was, he indicated where in the building the rooms were and he described
6 them, I think it was 5 by 5 metres, and he told us -- was it 15 or 16
7 detainees held there. That all sounds simple and easy to me. So unless
8 there is any objection from the Prosecution on this matter, I would be
9 satisfied with just having the witness's testimony.
10 Now, if it is a contested issue then I think then we could
11 consider having a closer look at your pictures. But I have a natural
12 reluctance to -- to -- to use photos from the site visit as evidence.
13 But let's hear from the Prosecution.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: I fully agree, Your Honours. And, as I say, I'm in
15 your hands. If it is not contested issue then we don't have a problem.
16 MR. HANNIS: As far as I am aware, Your Honour, I don't see that
17 this is a hotly contested issue. And given your reluctance for those
18 photos, I'd rather not use a photo and rely on the witness's testimony.
19 However, if we are going to use this photo, then I would go back
20 to -- Mr. Demirdjian, I think a couple weeks ago was the incident that I
21 think Judge Hall was referring to, he wanted to offer, I think, a photo
22 of Teslic SJB. We have one in evidence already but his view was that the
23 one taken on the site visit was better for some reason. I think there
24 was an objection and Your Honours expressed your reluctance to use the
25 site visit as vehicle to get in new evidence.
1 And so, I guess I'd like to stick with that. Unless it is truly
2 exceptional and something that is contested, and I don't think this is.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's keep it at that, if that's okay with you,
5 Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, yes. Yes, thank you very much.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: And let's bring the witness in.
8 MR. HANNIS: While the witness was is being brought in, I was
9 asked to see if the Trial Chamber had received the e-mail that Ms. Korner
10 had sent to Ms. Featherstone concerning our calculations on the number of
11 hours we believe the Prosecution still had remaining.
12 Well, perhaps later in the day I can address that issue if you'd
13 had a chance to see that, before the end of the day.
14 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness to
15 be brought in, perhaps we could address the issue of the document that
16 was discussed at the end of the day yesterday. This was a list of
17 prisoners which Mr. Zecevic had pointed out appeared to correctly be an
18 attachment to another document that had already been admitted.
19 Now how I was proposing that we would deal with this, is that
20 four pages that make up list of prisoners that are within P1696, MFI,
21 could be added to P393 so it becomes the complete document with the
22 attachments as Mr. Zecevic was looking for.
23 However, I would also like to keep P1696 MFI, as it is, simply
24 because the previous witness gave evidence on the document as it was
25 under there and so we would then lose that evidence if we take it away
1 from there. So there would be duplication, but I think so that we don't
2 lose any evidence later on in the record, it would suit our purposes
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, could you remind me the ST number of
5 this witness?
6 MR. DOBBYN: It was ST-221.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, do you have a view on the method
9 proposed by Mr. Dobbyn?
10 MR. ZECEVIC: No, I agree. Because I understand the reasons why
11 Mr. Dobbyn wants to keep the P1696 MFI because the previous witness
12 commented on it, so ...
13 JUDGE HALL: So do I understand aright that there is nothing for
14 the Chamber to do. It is merely a matter for the Registry to harmonise,
15 not harmonise, whatever, to sort out of the documents that comprise the
16 particular exhibit.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I believe that it is in the process of
21 being sorted out. We just need the leave of the Trial Chamber to make
22 the appropriate correction to the exhibit that exists, and if we are able
23 to do that, then, yes, we can take care of it with Registry.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: We agree with that, Mr. Dobbyn, and that means
25 that 1696 would be de-MFIed.
1 MR. DOBBYN: Well, I -- I suppose that's where it gets tricky.
2 Just for the purposes of the record, since the previous witness commented
3 on it, later on if we are hoping to use that evidence, I would think we
4 would want that to have been admitted as a -- P1696, because I
5 understand, yes, there would be duplication but to have that on the
6 record so that we can rely on it later.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But for that I will have an objection because
9 as I explained it's -- it's a -- three documents. The P1696, MFI, it
10 consists of three different documents, which have nothing to do with one
11 to the other.
12 That is -- that was the gist of my explanation yesterday and the
13 problem that I have.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MR. DOBBYN: And, Your Honours, we could simply remove the two
16 documents that don't relate to the list of prisoners in the case of
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: And ... which ... document numbers you're talking
20 about then? Simply remove two documents, you say. Which ones?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you mean -- yeah. Yes, the first -- the first
23 page and the last page? Is that it?
24 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, that's right, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: That will work. I don't know whether it is
1 technically possible.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: And that wouldn't -- that wouldn't affect, I just
4 want to make sure, document number P393?
5 MR. DOBBYN: No, that wouldn't affected it, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Then it's okay. Let's do that.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: And that means that the document is de-MFIed
9 in -- the remaining document will be de-MFIed then.
10 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, Mr. Witness. Before Mr. Dobbyn
11 resumes his examination-in-chief, I remind you, you're still on your
13 WITNESS: ST-222 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.
16 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Examination by Mr. Dobbyn: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning, sir.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Now, I want to start with the document that we have just been
21 discussing. I'm wondering which number I should be calling it up under.
22 MR. DOBBYN: If we can see P1696, please.
23 Could we please go to page 2 of both English and B/C/S. Sorry,
24 page 3 of the English; page 2 of B/C/S.
25 Q. Now, sir, in the B/C/S version, can you see a name that's
1 handwritten at the top right-hand corner. Can you read that name?
2 A. Milorad Lokanjcevic.
3 Q. And can you tell us what position, if any, Milorad Lokanjcevic
4 held in 1992, in September?
5 A. He was the chief of the police station in Zvornik.
6 Q. Thank you. Now you've had a chance to look at this document when
7 we met on Sunday. Looking at the names that are listed in this first
8 list of prisoners here, do you know if these persons were detained in
9 1992; and, if so, in which facility?
10 A. They were detained, indeed. Some of them were those who had been
11 brought from Celopek. They were wounded. And the previous group was
12 taken to Batkovic. Those who were wounded remained for further
13 treatment, as well as some of their closest ones who remained with them
14 to look after them. The rest were in Novi Izvor. Therefore, I would say
15 that this is a list of all the detainees who remained in the prison in
16 Zvornik. And they were all ready to be transferred to Batkovic, to the
17 collection centre there.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DOBBYN: Now, I want to scroll down to the name at number 25.
20 If we can see that. That may be on the following page. But if we can
21 just move over to see what the numbering is.
22 Q. Now, at number 25, you see the name Fadil Handzic. And can you
23 tell me, is this the individual that you spoke about yesterday who was
24 beaten by paramilitaries at Ekonomija farm?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. DOBBYN: And can we move on now to page 4 of the B/C/S, and
3 page 5 of the English.
4 Q. And, sir, we see here that this is a document, it's dated 24
5 September 1992 from SJB Zvornik and it lists six prisoners, five of them
6 whom are women. Can you confirm whether these women were, in fact,
7 detained in Zvornik?
8 A. They were kept in Divic, in the dressing rooms of the football
10 Q. Can you tell us what their ethnicity was, if you know, and also
11 where they were detained?
12 A. They were Muslims. I don't know why they were detained.
13 Q. Now, moving on to a different topic, sir. Did hear anything in
14 1992 about a massacre of Muslim detainees in Drinjaca?
15 A. In 1992, I didn't hear that. I wasn't aware of that then. I
16 only became aware of all that in 1993, perhaps.
17 Q. Can you tell us what you heard.
18 A. I heard that some killings did take place in Drinjaca and that
19 that was done by the paramilitaries.
20 Q. Do you know which particular paramilitary group it was who
21 committed these killings?
22 A. I heard that it was Pivarski's Group. I believe that that was
23 his family name. I don't know his first name though.
24 Q. Now can you tell us what -- what you knew or what was the
25 reputation of Pivarski's Group, or Pivarski's Unit, in 1992?
1 A. Well, just like the other paramilitary units. They were
2 perceived as criminals, that they had broken into apartments, that they
3 beat people, that they killed people.
4 Q. Do you know if the police investigated these killings at
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Sir, do you -- in 1992, did you also know an individual who went
8 by the name of Niski?
9 A. Yes. He also had a group of his own. Again, a group of
11 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to go into private session
12 now, please.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 17101-17102 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session. Thank
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
14 A. Good morning.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Can we go into private session, sorry.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 17104-17106 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 MR. ZECEVIC:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, the chief of the public security station in
6 April of 1992 in Zvornik was a man called Milenko Mijic; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Milo -- Milenko was the chief of the SJB in Zvornik until 21
9 April 1992. And then he was replaced by Milos Pantelic from Loznica; is
10 that correct?
11 A. I don't remember the date, but it's correct that Mijic was
12 replaced by Milos Pantelic from Loznica.
13 Q. For the Trial Chamber, in terms of the date, document P141 is
14 relevant in relation to the date.
15 From 21 April 1992, Milos Pantelic was the chief of the public
16 security station until about mid-June 1992, when Marinko Vasilic was
17 appointed the chief; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Again, for the Trial Chamber, the relevant exhibits are P325,
20 P329, P330, and P331, in relation to the dates when Milos Pantelic was
21 the chief of the public security station.
22 Let me ask you this, sir: Marinko Vasilic was the chief of the
23 SJB from early June in Zvornik, and he remained there until 2
24 August 1992, when he was replaced by Milorad Lokanjcevic; is that
1 A. I don't remember the dates, but it's correct that he was replaced
2 by Milorad Lokanjcevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P341.
4 Q. Sir, this is a record on the handover of duties, the date is 2
5 August, 1992. It is a handover of duties between Milorad Vasilic - up to
6 then - chief of the SJB, and Milorad Lokanjcevic. At the bottom
7 right-hand corner can you see the signatures of Marinko Vasilic and
8 Milorad Lokanjcevic; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Sir, I suppose that you know that all these three
11 chiefs, Milenko Mijic, Milos Pantelic and Marinko Vasilic, were all
12 appointed by the temporary government of Zvornik municipality?
13 A. I don't know that. But I assume that they did. That would have
14 been the rules that the municipal assembly would appoint the chief.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P323,
17 Q. Sir, this is a decision by the Crisis Staff dated 6 April 1992
18 declaring a state of war in the territory of the Serbian municipality of
20 Did you know about this decision?
21 A. I don't recall. I know that there was a decision, but I didn't
22 see it in written form.
23 Q. Item 4 says -- I apologise -- item 2 says that the municipal
24 organs of the Assembly and Executive --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the Crisis Staff
1 shall temporarily take over responsibilities of the organs.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We know that temporary government of Zvornik municipality was
4 established after this; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Item 4 says:
7 "Defence duties shall be taken over by the Territorial Defence of
8 the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik and some parts of the reserve police
9 of the public security station of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If I understand it correctly, that means that the TO assumed
13 defence duties, and also the TO assumed duties of part of the reserve
14 police of the SJB; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, during those months, from April and onward, you received a
17 salary from the SJB, as you were employed there; right?
18 A. We did for a while, but then we didn't any longer.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see P326, and I
20 would also like us to move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 17110-17117 redacted.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 MR. ZECEVIC: May I?
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we were talking about that lad who had been
25 released after having been brought in by the paramilitaries.
1 During the time when you were at the technical school in Karakaj,
2 a few other individuals were brought in by both the TO and the
3 paramilitaries, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On page 17064 yesterday, you said that at the technical school in
6 Karakaj, you remained about 20 days or so, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Sir, during their stay at the technical school, were the
9 detainees ill-treated or harassed?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Is it true that they were regularly beaten by various objects?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were they ordered to beat each other, or hit each other?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is it true that a certain number of detainees died at the
16 technical school in Karakaj due to the alleged beating?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you sure that no one died at the technical school in Karakaj?
19 And I'm talking about the prisoner there.
20 A. I'm 100 per cent sure.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 17120-17121 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, yesterday you were shown this map and you marked it; do you
6 remember? You put numbers next to individual buildings.
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the usher to
9 provide the witness with a felt-tip pen. I would like the witness to
10 mark some other buildings, in addition to those that he already marked
11 yesterday. And if he could use the blue colour, please. Can he provided
12 with a blue marker? Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, yesterday you said that you could see the misdemeanour court
14 in this photo, the administrative building of Novi Izvor, the court, the
15 municipality building, and the public security station building; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please put number 1 next to the building --
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Or, rather, before that, could the
19 photo please be moved a bit to the right in order to display the left
20 margin. Okay. [In English] No, no, but the left margin. I have the
21 right margin and I believe the right margin is not there. Thank you, I'm
23 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please put a number 1 next to the
24 building of the misdemeanour court.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Number 2 for the administrative building of Novi Izvor.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And now, number 3, for the public security station building.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Number 4 for the court building.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And, finally, number 5 for the municipality building.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Sir, the building with a grey roof and a few cars parked in the
10 courtyard, is that part of the municipality building or the court
12 A. It's part of the municipality building.
13 Q. Thank you. I believe that in your previous testimonies, you said
14 that the court was operational at the time; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the president of the court was ...
17 A. The president of the court was Vaso Eric.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would
20 like to tender this document into evidence. And could it please be stay
21 on the screen.
22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits 1D00394, Your Honours.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Tell me, at the time when you were transferred into the
1 misdemeanour court building, when the prison was set up there, Marko
2 Pavlovic was still the commander of the Zvornik TO; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, effectively, that prison was under his authority, or,
5 rather, under the authority of the TO; right?
6 A. I believe you're right.
7 Q. In one of your previous testimonies, admittedly, you said that on
8 one occasion you went to visit Marko Pavlovic in his office at the TO
9 building in Zvornik. You asked him what he intended to do with the
10 prisoners. You were referring to the prisoners in the misdemeanour court
11 building, and he told you, Well, just let them sit there for a while; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You said that in your testimony in Belgrade as well as when you
15 provided a statement in Brcko; right?
16 A. It's possible.
17 Q. In the course of your evidence yesterday, you confirmed that the
18 TO determined which of the prisoners would go to perform work obligation;
20 A. I believe that people came from the TO and they asked or, rather,
21 requested from prisoners to go and perform some duties and...
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
24 1D394, could it please remain on the screen. I'll have a few
25 more questions for the witness about that document.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Zecevic's microphone is not on.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise once again.
3 Q. You told us yesterday that the prisoners were accommodated in the
4 misdemeanour court building; whereas, the guards were accommodated in the
5 administrative building of Novi Izvor; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Also, in the course of your testimony yesterday, you said that,
8 on one occasion, you had seen Gogic's Men, as you called them. They had
9 stormed the prison building. And then you entered the prison. They were
10 in one room, and they were beating Ramiz Smailovic, also known as Celo.
11 Do you remember all that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And then you chased them out of the prison building; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Yesterday, on page 17075, you said that Gogic's Men had almost
17 identical uniforms to the ones you had; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you said that, based on that, they were also members of
20 the MUP; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It's a fact that Gogic's Men had come from Serbia, from Loznica;
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And this was a paramilitary group which Chief Pantelic, who was
1 also from Loznica, had brought there; is that correct?
2 A. Precisely.
3 Q. Most certainly they were not members of the RS MUP, nor could
4 they have been, because they were foreign citizens; is that right?
5 A. They couldn't have been, I think.
6 Q. And sometime in early June, they were expelled; is that right?
7 A. I don't recall the date, but we did expel them. The police, that
9 Q. I believe the Prosecutor asked you who initiated this action.
10 It's a fact, and you didn't answer the question, it's a fact, is it not,
11 that the order for their -- them to be expelled was issued to you by the
12 chief then, Marinko Vasilic. He was chief of the SJB at the time?
13 A. Marinko was the chief; that is, Marinko Vasilic. And Petko Panic
14 initiated the action. I think that, at the time, he was either the
15 commander or the assistant commander.
16 Q. Either way, he was superior to you; right?
17 A. Yes, precisely.
18 Q. If you can look at the photo and tell us when the detainees were
19 being led out of the misdemeanour court building, where would they have
20 been taken? Can we see that area in the photo? Is that the area between
21 the administration building of Novi Izvor, the court-house, and the
22 misdemeanour court? So between buildings 1, 4, and 5? Was it that area
23 or another area?
24 A. It's that area.
25 Q. So there wasn't any other area where the detainees could have
1 been led out.
2 A. No.
3 Q. And if somebody were to abuse or beat the detainees in that area,
4 that would most certainly have been visible at least from the
5 court-house, from Novi Izvor, and the prison, and, probably, from the
6 public security station, from the higher floors of that building; right?
7 A. It would have been seen from the building of the SUP, the
8 parameter of the SUP, the court-house, practically from all the buildings
9 which faced the misdemeanour court.
10 Q. Tell me, do you know, did anybody ever tell you that the
11 detainees were taken out from the misdemeanour court one by one and then
13 A. No.
14 Q. Even if that were to happen, that most certainly could not have
15 happened in May because the misdemeanour court, as we saw, became a
16 prison only in June; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you sure that the detainees were not taken to that area and
19 then regularly beaten?
20 A. I'm certain.
21 Q. It's a fact, is it not, that apart from the Muslim detainees who
22 were in the misdemeanour court building, five Serbs were also there at
23 the time who had been detained for the crime of murder.
24 A. Yes, precisely.
25 Q. Yesterday in your testimony you confirmed that one detainee died
1 of natural causes, and that after this the president of the court and a
2 team conducted an on-site investigation; is that right?
3 A. The president of the court wasn't there. A judge was on the
4 scene and other members of the SUP who conducted the on-site
5 investigation. They established that the man had died of natural causes,
6 and this was confirmed by the doctor who was on the scene.
7 Q. Sir, just a clarification, because this is somewhat unclear. You
8 marked the administration building of the Novi Izvor company with the
9 number 2; is that right?
10 A. Yes. That is the administration building of Novi Izvor. That's
11 what it was before the war. The administration building.
12 Q. What did the Novi Izvor company do? Did it produce anything?
13 A. It had a brick factory in Karakaj, a chalk factory in Grbavica, a
14 stone quarry in Josanica. And the general manager and others were in
15 that building. The general manager and other employees had their offices
17 Q. All right. I believe that in your testimony yesterday you said
18 that the culture centre where people from Divic village were located
19 operated in June and July of 1992; right?
20 A. That question is not clear to me.
21 Q. You said that the inhabitants of Divic village were first taken
22 to the separation line, to Kalesija, and the Muslim forces refused to
23 accept them so then they were taken to the separation line, to Kladanj,
24 and, again, the Muslims refused to accept them. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, precisely.
1 Q. And after this, since the Muslims refused to accept them at the
2 separation line, they were accommodated at the culture centre in Celopek;
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that happened sometime in June of 1992; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. These people from Divic were taken to the separation line by the
8 TO; that is, the army. They were taken there for the failed exchange;
10 A. Well, that wasn't an exchange. That was just for their forces to
11 accept them, which they refused to do. And they were taken there by the
12 Territorial Defence.
13 Q. So this wasn't an exchange. They were merely taken to the line
14 and the Muslims refused to accept them; right?
15 A. Yes, precisely.
16 Q. And the Territorial Defence, which led them on two occasions,
17 afterwards accommodated them at the culture centre in Celopek; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I suppose they didn't know what else to do with them.
20 A. That could be.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, could you tell us, if you know, the
22 reason why the Muslim side would refuse to accept these detainees?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer your question, but I
24 assume - and talk around town was - that because they didn't fight,
25 instead, they surrendered. Because they surrendered to the Serbs. That
1 might have been the only reason, in my opinion.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm not I fully understand the logic of it, but
3 maybe we will come back to this point.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. If we could clarify this:
6 When you say that the Muslim forces refused to accept these
7 people from Divic who were taken to the separation line by the TO on two
8 occasions, you heard that the Muslim forces refused to do this because
9 they said that these people should have fought against the Serbs and not
10 surrendered to the Territorial Defence, and that's why we refused to
11 accept them; is that right?
12 A. Yes, precisely.
13 Q. That's why they refused to accept these unfortunate people from
14 Divic village at the separation line; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. After sometime, you heard, that is, we heard that the TO
17 accommodated them at the cultural centre in Celopek. And then they had
18 the reserve police guard them. Do you remember the name of the person
19 who was in charge?
20 A. Yes. They were locals from Celopek and Tesic. And Cvjetko Jovic
21 was in charge.
22 Q. But they were as -- registered as reserve police; right?
23 A. Yes, reserve police of the Zvornik station.
24 Q. And after sometime, you received the information that these
25 unfortunate people who were at the culture centre in Celopek were being
1 abused by members of the Yellow Wasps paramilitary groups, that they
2 abused them, and that some were killed there; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then the chief, Marinko Vasilic, told you to take some
5 policemen with you and to take some buses and take these people and bring
6 them to the misdemeanour court-house, to the prison there; is that right?
7 A. Yes. Marinko called me, we had a conversation, and he told me to
8 transfer these unfortunate people from Celopek to the misdemeanour court
9 and to transfer the people from the misdemeanour court to the Novi Izvor
10 building. Buses came. He designated a number of policemen, and we all
11 went to Celopek, put these people on to buses and brought them to the
12 misdemeanour court.
13 Q. In your earlier testimony, you said that Marinko told you, And
14 take these people in the misdemeanour court because the paramilitaries
15 would kill them. You were supposed to protect them, in fact?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he told you that you needed to protect them, put them to the
18 court-house, and that soon afterwards they would go to a military
19 collection centre in Batkovic.
20 A. Yes, precisely. And that's how it was.
21 Q. When you went to pick up these unfortunate people at the cultural
22 centre in Celopek, that was in early July; is that correct?
23 A. I believe it was the month of July.
24 Q. If they were already being guarded by the reserve police, can you
25 explain why the chief of the SJB didn't order them to bring them to the
1 court-house but instead sent you and a team of other policemen to do
3 A. We were active-policemen with more experience, and we could
4 engage in all kinds of interventions; while the reservists didn't dare
5 get involved in interventions.
6 Q. And one of your earlier testimonies, you said that when these
7 people from Celopek were being boarded onto the buses, you ran into some
8 problem with the TO and the people who wanted to shoot at you for saving
9 the Muslims from the cultural centre.
10 A. Yes, precisely.
11 Q. And you carried out this task while you ha to threaten members of
12 the TO and the locals and the paramilitaries with guns; is that right?
13 A. Not only me, but the other policemen as well. We carried out the
14 task that the chief ordered us to carry out, and we had to use weapons.
15 Had to threaten with weapons.
16 Q. You also testified earlier, the attitude of the police and the
17 TO, relations weren't very good; right?
18 A. They weren't very good.
19 Q. And the TO and the paramilitaries disliked the police because
20 they saw the police as a protector of the Muslims; right?
21 A. Yes, precisely.
22 Q. When you took those retched people to the misdemeanour court by
23 buses, you took the previous prisoners to the Novi Izvor building;
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It was then that, due to shortage of space, Novi Izvor, for the
2 first time, became a prison; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. On that occasion, apart from the five original guards who were
5 first at the Ekonomija, then at the technical school at Karakaj, and then
6 at the misdemeanour court building, you received reinforcement; that is,
7 some other guards.
8 A. Yes. A number of reserve police officers arrived when these
9 people arrived from Celopek.
10 Q. If I understood your evidence in some previous trials correctly,
11 then, once they had been brought to the misdemeanour court, it was
12 established that some of them were wounded and had serious injuries,
13 requiring medical assistance. That's when a doctor and some nurses were
14 brought in to take care of them; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember the name of that doctor, and can you remember how
17 many nurses arrived with her?
18 A. I remember an occasion when a doctor arrived. I don't know her
19 name. It -- it was Bejla and there were two or three nurses. And there
20 were two or three such occasions when medical teams arrived to help these
21 wounded people.
22 Q. And these injured people stayed at the misdemeanour court after a
23 significant number was transferred to the military collection centre on
24 the 15th of July, 1992 from the cultural centre.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You answered a bit too soon. Please repeat.
3 A. Those who were more seriously wounded stayed in prison to -- for
4 additional medical treatment; whereas, these others, from Celopek, were
5 taken to the collection centre at Batkovic.
6 Q. You provided security to that convoy taking them to Batkovic on
7 the 15th of July, 1992; correct?
8 A. I was at the end of the column and another colleague was ahead,
9 in front of the buses.
10 Q. So that you provided traffic security to that convoy; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 65 ter 2643.
13 Let us see page 2, please. This is a payment slip to the amount
14 of 85.800 dinars, the beneficiary is Drinatrans Zvornik.
15 Q. That is a haulier company; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's see page 2.
18 Q. You see that this is an invoice issued by that haulier and the
19 date is, I believe, 18 July 1992. The invoice was issued to the
20 provisional government of the Serbian Municipality for Zvornik for
21 transportation services and it's that same amount. Can you see it?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's show page 3. It's in -- a
24 summary of transportation services carried out for the provisional
25 government. 0132-8458 is the ERN number of that page. Could we also see
1 the Serbian original, page 3.
2 Q. Well, this is an overview of transportation services carried out
3 for the provisional government of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik and
4 for the TO. The date is 21 July 1992. And in line 4, we read 15
5 July 1992, Zvornik-Bijeljina-Batkovic. Number of buses, 4. Distance in
6 kilometres, 600. And the narrative says transportation of prisoners.
7 Does this refer to the transportation of the persons from the
8 misdemeanour court to Batkovici, who were previously held at the culture
9 centre in Celopek?
10 A. Well, the distance is mighty big, and this is for the
11 transportation of prisoners from Zvornik, through Bijeljina, to Batkovic.
12 But 600 kilometres is a lot.
13 Q. Do you remember that there were four buses?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Well, probably they arrived at 600 by multiplying the actual
16 distance by 4, which would mean 150 by 4 equals 600.
17 A. Maybe Drinatrans blew up the distance so as to be able to get
18 more money out of the government. Because 600 kilometres is a lot. But
19 let it be.
20 Q. Maybe it's correct the distance from Zvornik to Batkovic could be
21 about 75, and one way and there and back it would be 150 and that would
22 be it.
23 A. Possible. Zvornik-Bijeljina is about 50 kilometres and maybe the
24 distance from Bijeljina to Batkovic is 20, and that's how they calculated
1 Q. So there and back, 150, times 4 buses that will take us to 600;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I seek
6 to tender this document.
7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D00395, Your Honours.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, after these persons were taken, or most of them were taken
11 to Batkovic on 15 July, the administration building in Novi Izvor was no
12 longer used as a prison; correct?
13 A. No. The prisoners that had been there stayed behind, and the
14 wounded people from Divic stayed in the -- in the misdemeanour court.
15 Q. Very well. Yesterday, while you were giving evidence, the
16 Prosecutor cited the proceedings before the State Court of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina against the five guards who were first at the
18 Ekonomija, and then at the technical school at Karakaj, and, finally, in
19 the misdemeanour court, or the Novi Izvor administration building; do you
20 remember that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could question into private session
23 for a moment, please.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 17137-17141 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, while the witness is brought in, let
1 me shortly remind my learned friends from the Office of the Prosecutor of
2 transcript page 9422. It says:
3 "Mr. Zecevic: I don't think that 10346 is on your 65 ter list.
4 "Ms. Korner: You're absolutely spot on, but are you telling me
5 there is an objection to a map from Google Maps?"
6 And I respond:
7 "I'm not objecting to the document itself. I'm objecting as
8 regarding the principle that we have, how to admit the document which are
9 not on the 65 ter list."
10 Further, transcript 14 -- this is -- this first one was regarding
11 the Exhibit P1319. And the next one is transcript 14459. And:
12 "Ms. Korner: Even if we can't do it, what was -- could we have
13 up, please, 3419.65."
14 Your Honour, we did it last night when we were still looking for
15 a map, just in case we couldn't get hold of a map.
16 And there was no objection from the -- from the Defence, and it
17 was exhibited as P1581.
18 Now, saying all this, Your Honours, I have agreed with my learned
19 friends from the Prosecutor's office that I will use 65 ter 3125 as a
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
23 Can we have it up?
24 JUDGE HALL: Before you continue, Mr. Zecevic, we are -- the
25 Chamber is in receipt of a motion filed today for another witness's
1 testimony to be taken by videolink, and we would be grateful if the
2 Defence, once they would have considered it, if they could let us have
3 their response by tomorrow. Thank you.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I hope -- the hope the -- the Trial Chamber will be
5 pleased to learn that I already talked to -- to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor regarding this -- this motion for the -- the last motion for
7 the videolink for the witness, and we have agreed that we are not going
8 to oppose. We only ask that the -- that the session for the 22nd of
9 January -- November, be moved into the afternoon for the purposes of
10 this -- the videolink of this witness. And I'm told from -- from my
11 friends from the Office of the Prosecutor that that also helps the
12 witness to come to Sarajevo and all that.
13 So the only -- the only suggestion is that instead of sitting in
14 the morning that we sit in the afternoon for that videolink on 22nd.
15 JUDGE HALL: And is Mr. Krgovic on board with this?
16 MR. KRGOVIC: We share the same position.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Could we have 65 ter 3125.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we changed the map somewhat. However, we
20 have another map again of Zvornik.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist you
22 and provide with you a pen --
23 JUDGE HALL: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Zecevic. It was brought
24 to my attention that we were in private session at the time that we
25 adjourned for the last break and we are now in open session.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, we can be in open session. I will inform the
2 Trial Chamber when we have to -- to move into the private session again.
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Look at the map and perhaps you will see a brown
6 line. This is a road leading from Zvornik and at one point forking off
7 into two directions. This is the Zvornik-Sekovici, I assume. Do you see
8 it? It's very difficult. It's not very discernible, but that's where
9 the road should be; right?
10 A. Well, it's not clear. The map is definitely not very clear. The
11 first one was better. The previous one was much clearer. It's not going
12 to be easy for me to get my bearings in this map.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I can use the previous map, just
14 not to confuse the witness, and I will not seek to tender it. I just
15 need a certain location.
16 Can we have -- I'm sorry. Can we have back the 1D04-3582,
17 tab 44.
18 Q. [Interpretation] We'll bring back the other map, the better one.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D04-3582.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the witness has already marked the
21 current map we have on screen. That's why the subsequent one called up
22 by counsel is not showing. Can we get a direction as to whether we can
23 continue with this map, or do you want us to show the 1D04-3582, that you
24 just called?
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes -- we don't need this map which is on the
1 monitors right now. I would like 1D04-3582.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, the road leading from Zvornik at one point
3 forks off in two directions towards Kalesija and towards Sekovici; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is halfway between Zvornik and Tuzla, some 25 kilometres
6 away from Zvornik? And that cross-roads is known as Capardi, right, or
7 the village close to it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That road leading from Zvornik to Sekovici, via Capardi was open
10 only in early July 1992 when Crni Vrh was liberated; right?
11 A. I don't understand your question.
12 Q. On that road there is a pass known as Crni Vrh; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that pass, or, rather, around that pass, there was fighting
15 in the course of 1992, between the VRS and the Muslim forces; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that road, was not safe for a while, and you, as you
18 explained for my learned friend, Mr. Dobbyn, you patrolled that road and
19 you secured the columns the vehicles that took that road; right?
20 A. We secured and escorted columns along that part of the road only
21 when the killings had taken place and when citizens of Republika Srpska
22 started dying. That's when we decided to patrol in an official vehicle
23 and with an armoured combat vehicle with three guns and to escort columns
24 to Capardi and back, and that transpired only during the day and not
25 during the night.
1 Q. There was no movement during the night for security reasons;
3 A. Well, if somebody wanted to risk their life, they could.
4 Q. And you said that about five days before that special unit
5 entered Zvornik and arrested the paramilitaries there, that you had
6 patrolled with your colleague, Maric; and, on that occasion, you come
7 across Minister Stanisic, or, rather, you saw Minister Stanisic on that
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I think we should move into private
11 session out of an abundance of caution.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 17148-17149 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
17 JUDGE HALL: And, Mr. Krgovic, could you confirm for the record
18 that you decline cross-examination.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, we don't have cross-examination
20 for this witness.
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
23 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have a few questions.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:
25 Q. Sir, first of all, I'd just like to ask you about something you
1 spoke about earlier with Mr. Zecevic.
2 This is at transcript page 18 from today. You agreed with
3 Mr. Zecevic that Marinko Vasilic had been chief of the SJB Zvornik from
4 early June until he was replaced on the 2nd of August, 1992. And the
5 question I have is: Do you know what happened to him after that point?
6 Was he posted somewhere else, or do you know where he went to after he
7 was posted, after he was SJB chief?
8 A. He was replaced as chief of police in Zvornik. For about a
9 month, he wasn't assigned anywhere, and after that, he moved to customs.
10 Q. Where was the location of customs? Where would he be physically
11 located then?
12 A. At the time the customs was in the centre of Zvornik. The
13 building of customs was in the centre of Zvornik.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, throughout the course of cross-examination
15 today, you've agreed with several propositions that were put to you
16 regarding the timing of moves from one prison facility to another. I
17 just want to explore that a little further?
18 Now, first of all, are you certain about the dates that the
19 various detention facilities were open?
20 A. I'm not certain about the dates. I'm not certain about when they
21 were opened.
22 Q. I'd like to explore that a little further again.
23 You agreed with Mr. Zecevic that you took over --
24 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, we need to go into private session for this,
25 Your Honours.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 17153-17162 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
12 MR. DOBBYN:
13 Q. Now, you were asked whether you knew anything about
14 Karakaj Technical School being used as a prison after the police stopped
15 using it. And you had said that people from Bijeli Potok were held there
16 and guarded by the military. Do you recall that?
17 A. Yes, I remember.
18 Q. Do you have any knowledge about people from Muslim civilians from
19 Djulici being held there at any time?
20 A. I heard that Muslims were kept at the technical school and that
21 they were mostly from Djulici. But they were guarded by the military, so
22 we didn't have access.
23 Q. Thank you. It was also put to you that the --
24 MR. DOBBYN: And sorry, Your Honours, we should go back into
25 private session for this.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 17165-17168 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And we take the adjournment to 9.00
6 tomorrow morning.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of
9 November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.