Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17605

 1                           Monday, 22 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The Accused Zupljanin not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Good afternoon to everyone.  May we have the appearances for

12     today, please.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  On behalf of the

14     Office of the Prosecutor, I'm Tom Hannis, along with Selma Sakic, and

15     Crispian Smith.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

17     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

18     this afternoon.  Thank you.

19             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For

20     Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and

21     Ms. Marie Pineaud.

22             For the record, our client, Mr. Zupljanin, is not present today

23     and I hope that his waiver will be filed in the usual manner in due

24     course.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 17606

 1             [Microphone not activated]

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The next witness is ST-219.  We

 3     filed last week, on Thursday, I believe, an urgent request for protective

 4     measures.  However, I think Your Honours may want to hear directly from

 5     the witness before you make your final decision about it.

 6             And also, related to the documents I proposed to use with this

 7     witness, there is one, at tab 11.  It's Exhibit P630.  Early this morning

 8     we received a revised English translation of that document.  While

 9     preparing for this witness and looking at it, it appeared to me that

10     there were some problems with the previous translation that had been in

11     e-court.  I requested the revised translation.  That's been received.  I

12     think it's uploaded in e-court and we'd like leave of the Court to

13     substitute that English translation for the one that is currently in

14     e-court.  It has no bearing on the original B/C/S of which there is a

15     hard copy in the field office to be used by the witness.  But for our

16     purposes, if I indeed use it today, it would be good to have the revised

17     version.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Dealing with the second matter first.  Does the

19     Defence have any observations about the application to substitute --

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, we do not oppose the -- the

21     application made by my learned friend Mr. Hannis; however, we would like

22     to be reminded of the reference on the -- on the -- on the translation

23     where the problem was before, so that we can compare it now before we can

24     finally say that we don't have any objections.

25             MR. HANNIS:  There wasn't a single word.  It was very much a

Page 17607

 1     matter of grammar and phrasing.  It was almost unintelligible in parts

 2     and I think it's clear now.  I couldn't point you to a specific sentence

 3     or paragraph.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  But it has been done by CLSS, the translation?

 5             MR. HANNIS:  The revised translation, I don't know.  It was done

 6     so quickly, I suspect it was not.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, then we do object.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  As a practical matter.  I think it was probably done

 9     in-house.  But it is certainly more intelligible than the previous

10     translation.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand the reason, but I think the previous

12     translation was done by the translation unit of the Office of the

13     Prosecutor and that caused the problem.  And it was my understanding that

14     once its is resent for translation it should be CLSS.  That is our

15     position.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Could we approach it this way.  I assume that the

17     Defence has no objection on principle to the substitution because

18     everybody is interested in the accuracy of the material that is provided.

19     The -- that we -- that the Chamber takes no action on the application for

20     substitution until the Defences has satisfied themselves that they have

21     not inadvertently created any new problems.

22             Would that be the more practical approach?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Definitely, Your Honours.  I appreciate your

24     suggestion and that is how -- we don't -- we do not objection to the

25     principle.  That is for sure.  We just need to be given some time to

Page 17608

 1     review the translation in order that -- that we -- we can check whether

 2     it corresponds to the original, in our opinion.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And I suppose that, Mr. Pantelic, you

 4     echo Mr. Zecevic's position?

 5             MR. PANTELIC:  Absolutely, Your Honour, yes.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Are you on board with this, Mr. Hannis?

 7             MR. HANNIS:  That's fine, Your Honour.  Appreciate it.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9             Before the Chamber makes the usual inquiries directly of the

10     witness, I seem to recall that there had been no response as such to the

11     application for protective measures.  Is that the ...

12             What is the Defence's position?

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  We take no position at this point, Your Honours.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  We take no position.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16             Can the Court Officer hear me?  Let's make sure, first of all,

17     that the technical transmission is working.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Hear you fine.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And the witness is present with you, I

20     take it?

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honours.  The witness

22     is present with me in the room.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Could you place him so that can he be seen by

24     the camera.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, until we resolve the matter

Page 17609

 1     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours [Overlapping

 3     speakers] ...

 4             MR. HANNIS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... request because it

 5     includes a request for image distortion.  I guess we need to go into

 6     private session or in some manner to avoid revealing his face, if that's

 7     the ultimate decision.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  I was trying to think through what the electronic

 9     equivalent is to what we would have done in terms of lowering the blinds

10     and whatnot.  And ...

11             I'm advised that it would be sufficient for us to go into private

12     session.

13    [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in private session.

15     Thank you.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.  Can you hear me in a

18     language you understand?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I would, first of all, invite you to read the

21     solemn declaration which the Court Officer has now placed before you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  ST-219

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 17610

 1                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

 3             I would, first of all, point out to you that that solemn

 4     declaration that you have just made imposes upon you an obligation to

 5     give truthful testimony to this Tribunal, and the penalty for failing to

 6     do so is the -- are the penalties which this Tribunal, by its constituent

 7     Statute, are able to impose for perjury on person who is give untruthful

 8     or misleading testimony.  We have before us, before your testimony is

 9     heard an application filed by the Prosecution at your request, at your

10     insistence, requesting certain protective measures.  I would, first of

11     all, explain that ordinarily the testimony is received by the Tribunal in

12     open session that is, even when a witness is testifying via videolink

13     such as you are.  And the reason for this is, that, being a criminal

14     Tribunal, it is imperative that the public, especially in the region of

15     the former -- the countries that comprise the former Yugoslavia, have

16     confidence in the integrity of the proceedings and that everyone who

17     comes before the Tribunal has a public trial, that is, a trial to which

18     members of the public has access.

19             Notwithstanding that principle, it is recognised and has been

20     recognised over the life of the Tribunal that, where there are good and

21     valid reasons for doing so, witnesses may be allowed certain protective

22     measures in the wider interests of justice so that, on the one hand, the

23     Tribunal has the benefit of the best evidence that it can obtain; and, on

24     the other hand, that witnesses or their family members are not -- are not

25     unnecessarily put at risk.  And it is for that reason that the Tribunal

Page 17611

 1     is empowered in exceptional circumstances to permit to a witness who has

 2     made his concerns known to the side calling him that there are reasons

 3     why certain protective measures should be employed.

 4             So, could you, first of all, tell us what your concerns are; and,

 5     secondly, what measures you are seeking that would allay your concerns?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation], first of all, I'm a family man.  I

 7     have two children.  And it's because of my children, because I don't want

 8     them to have problems in the near or further future because I'm appearing

 9     as a witness.

10             As far as I'm personally concerned, all my neighbours know who I

11     was and, to some extent, the people in the organisation where I work, and

12     that's the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, since people were

13     looking for me, mentioning my name.  But as far as I myself am concerned,

14     I wouldn't have sought protective measures.  But if that is not possible,

15     we can go into open session and there should be no problems.

16             That's what I would have to say.

17             JUDGE HALL:  There is an question that I'm direct to go counsel

18     for the Prosecution:  Mr. Hannis, the -- I -- I don't have your motion in

19     front of me, but the -- was this the witness in respect of whom there was

20     the -- it was represented that the name was such that -- would you like

21     to ask the witness a question directly related to this.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

23                           Examination on Protective Measures by Mr. Hannis:

24        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  I want to ask you about the

25     information --

Page 17612

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   I want to ask you about the information that I provided to the

 3     Court concerning your request for protective measures.  And in that

 4     motion we indicated a couple of things.  You had some concerns for your

 5     family possibly being harassed, if it were learned that you had testified

 6     here at the Tribunal.  And one of the reasons you indicated was that your

 7     name, Ranko Vukovic, is a rather common name in the territory, that you

 8     had already been harassed once at least because some non-Serb persons

 9     thought you were a Ranko Vukovic from Foca who allegedly had committed

10     some crimes against non-Serbs during the war.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.  It happened at the ministry, because I work

12     at the Ministry of Defence, and since there is one Ranko Vukovic who was

13     sentenced to 12 and a half years imprisonment by the court, and I was

14     born in Foca in 1952.  So some individuals, one Suad Roko who is a

15     religious officer, said to me, Oh, so you're the Ranko.  And I said,

16     There are many Rankos and where I live currently there is about a dozen

17     Ranko Vukovics within a circle of about 110 kilometres.

18             And the second thing, there was police director by the name of

19     Ranko Vukovic in the Republika Srpska who had his personal ID taken away

20     from him and his freedom of movement was limited.  I believe these

21     measures were lifted recently.  But I'm not that Ranko Vukovic either.

22     I'm a man who respects everybody irrespective of the colour of their

23     skin, their name, their ethnic affiliation and their religion.  I am this

24     Ranko Vukovic.

25             I believe that this is enough.  You're right, Mr. Hannis, and

Page 17613

 1     when we spoke at Nedzarici in Sarajevo, you understood me correctly.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would indicate that reference to

 3     that second Ranko Vukovic was an individual suspected of having some

 4     association with a network protected Mr. Karadzic when he was a fugitive,

 5     and his reference to his ID and limitation on movement related to actions

 6     taken by the UN High Commissioner.

 7        Q.   That's correct, Mr. Vukovic?  That's the second one you were

 8     talking about.

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   And finally, Your Honours, one last thing.

11             Mr. Vukovic, in our motion, we also indicated that you had some

12     concerns about possible harassment or retaliation against your family

13     members by Serb extremists simply by the fact that you were testifying at

14     the Tribunal in a case where the accused are Serbs.  Is that correct?

15     Was that -- is that a concern you have?

16        A.   I told you that I couldn't testify about some things of which I

17     have no knowledge.  I cannot confirm some things for the OTP.  And

18     possibly for that reason, some people who belonged to my ethnic group

19     could be induced to think that I stated some things that weren't true.

20     That's why I said that.

21             But I also said that my daughter who has a diploma in English

22     could come to work for the joint institutions in Sarajevo.  And for that

23     reason, my child could face some problems caused by the Bosniak side or

24     another side, because I'm her father.  Although I state with full

25     responsibility that I haven't had any problems with the law, that I have

Page 17614

 1     a clean slate and clean hands, that's it.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vukovic.  I don't have any further questions for

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Do counsel for the Defence have any questions.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I don't need to question the witness, but,

 6     Your Honours, because I don't want to use up the time.  We know for a

 7     fact that witness testified for the Defence in two previous cases or was

 8     supposed to testify for Defence -- gave the statements for -- for the

 9     Defence in Krajisnik and Karadzic.

10             None of the reasons which were stated over -- in -- in -- in our

11     friend's motion has been confirmed by -- by the witness basically.  I --

12     I probably missed something, but I don't see how -- how the fact that

13     some other people have the same name and the surname is relevant for any

14     of this, because the witness will not be changing his name.  That's for

15     sure.

16             So the problems with the same name and other persons having the

17     same name will persist whether he testifies publicly or testifies under

18     the protective measures, so I don't see how is that relevant for this.

19     And in my opinion, there is -- according to the witness there is -- there

20     is no -- there was no threats, he's just -- he's just having some

21     concerns which -- which have no basis for -- whatsoever at this point in

22     time in the -- or -- or any actual events.

23             Therefore, saying all this, we -- we do oppose now to the --

24     to -- to granting the protective measures.

25             Thank you.

Page 17615

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Pantelic.

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour, although this witness is not

 4     related to our client, I mean, generally but as a matter of principle we

 5     support position of Stanisic Defence with that regard.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             MR. HANNIS:  If I may, I'm not trying to continue to argue the

10     motion, just to clarify a couple of points.  Mr. Zecevic said that this

11     witness testified before.  To my knowledge, he has not testified before

12     at this Tribunal.  He did give a one-page witness statement apparently to

13     the Krajisnik Defence but he was not called as a witness in that case,

14     and I think he may have been listed as a potential witness for

15     Mr. Karadzic's Defence but he has not testified in that case yet.

16             And the reason we're referring to his name is, that relates to

17     the request for a pseudonym.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, I heard you say that you are -- that

20     you -- you -- you're currently employed in the Ministry of Defence.  Is

21     that Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It's the Ministry of Defence

23     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Because the federal Ministry of Defence and the

24     Ministry of Defence of the RS have been abolished, and they were

25     integrated into one state level Ministry of Defence, for which I work.

Page 17616

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And you're of Serb ethnicity; is that

 2     right?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And in 1992, you -- for -- you worked for the

 5     Ministry of Defence as well?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Having heard the witness -- having heard the witness

10     and having considered the submissions and representations made by counsel

11     on both sides, the decision of the Trial Chamber is that the witness may

12     be afforded a pseudonym.  That is the limit of the protective measures

13     that we consider necessary in the circumstances of this case.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We've asked for him to have

15     the pseudonym ST-219.  He does have a pseudonym sheet down there, I

16     guess.  I don't know how you want to deal with that in this videolink

17     context.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, the Court Officer has just passed to

19     you a pseudonym sheet.  If you are satisfied that that correctly states

20     your name and your date of birth, please sign it and pass it back to him.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Before we move into open session, I would remind the

25     parties and, indeed, ourselves, that having regard to the pseudonym,

Page 17617

 1     which the witness has been granted to avoid mentioning his name, and, of

 2     course, if the -- he would be other -- if there is any answer which would

 3     compromise the pseudonym then, of course, we would revert to private

 4     session.

 5             So we move into open session.

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you before I invite counsel for the

10     Prosecution who has called you, to begin his questions, the -- continuing

11     with the preliminary questions that the Chamber would have of you, the --

12     you have never testified before this Tribunal; is that correct?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified before a court in any of the

15     countries in the former Yugoslavia, in terms of the events that --

16     that -- that arose out of the -- 1992?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

18             JUDGE HALL:  The -- thank you - procedure is that the side

19     calling you would begin, and the -- then counsel for each of the accused

20     has a right to ask you questions arising out of the questions which the

21     Prosecution has asked.  The Prosecution then has a right to re-examine

22     and at that stage or indeed at any earlier stage the Bench may have

23     questions for you.  It is expected that the Prosecution would spent an

24     hour and a half with you and counsel for accused Stanisic has indicated

25     that they may be with you for as long as five hours, but I believe that

Page 17618

 1     that has been since amended and it would not be nearly as long as -- did

 2     I see something about 30 minutes and some.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, Your Honour, I said that we are going to be

 4     considerably shorter with the cross-examination and it's probably going

 5     to be a one hour and a half or one session maybe, in that range.  I

 6     informed my learned friend from the Office of the Prosecutor over the

 7     weekend about that.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

 9             You would have heard the exchange between the Bench and

10     Mr. Zecevic who appears for the accused Stanisic.  He has indicated that

11     he too would be with you for about an hour and a half, and counsel for

12     the accused Zupljanin, if they have any questions at all, would not

13     exceed an hour.

14             The Court day is -- begins --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all right.

16             JUDGE HALL:  If it is an afternoon session such as this is, it

17     starts at 2.15 an ends at 7.00 and the reason for the court day being

18     divided as it is is that that the limited court facilities have to be

19     shared with other trials.

20             We are scheduled to resume your testimony which, having regard to

21     the time indications I have given, are unlikely to be completed by the

22     time we rise at 7.00 this evening.  And it is due to continue tomorrow by

23     the time we take -- we rise I would indicate whether it would be in the

24     morning or in the afternoon.

25             Now, within those breaks, within those time-limits of 2.15 to

Page 17619

 1     7.00 p.m., or if it is a morning session from 9.00 to 1.45, there are

 2     breaks every 90 minutes for two reasons.  One, is that the tapes which

 3     are used to record the proceedings have to be changed at 90-minute

 4     intervals and that also allows witnesses to -- witnesses, counsel, the

 5     Bench themselves, to take a break.  Now, if the -- during any of the

 6     20-minute breaks that we have before between the sessions, you find it

 7     necessary that we take a break we will, of course, accommodate you, and

 8     with that, I would invite Mr. Hannis to begin.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  One more procedural matter.

10     I think we need to give the pseudonym sheet an exhibit number.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And the Court Officer did hand me the

12     reminder and I still forgot.  I'm sorry.

13             The pseudonym sheet should be given -- admitted under seal and

14     marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the pseudonym sheet for ST-219

16     shall be admitted as P01722, under seal.  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I confirm we are still

19     in open session?

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

21             MR. HANNIS:  All right.  Thank you.

22                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

23        Q.   Well, then I think I need to go briefly into private session just

24     for some personal details that might reveal his identity in terms of

25     background.  If I may.

Page 17620

 1    [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Witness, before the war began in 1992, in 1991, can you tell us

 5     where you were working and what position you held.

 6        A.   In 1991, I worked in the Ministry of Defence, in the Secretariat

 7     for National Defence in Pale.

 8        Q.   And what position did you hold there?

 9        A.   I was an operative at the alarming and reporting centre in Pale.

10        Q.   And did you have any managerial or supervisory position?

11        A.   I attended a school for chiefs of the centre, in Zemen [phoen],

12     and I completed that school.  And in that period, I was chief of the

13     centre.

14        Q.   And in April, early April of 1992, after the war began in Bosnia,

15     did your municipal centre for alarming and reporting get converted to

16     being a republic centre?

17        A.   Before the war, in the former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18     and the former Yugoslavia, the centre was on a municipal level and it was

19     subordinated to the town centre for monitoring and information of the

20     town of Sarajevo.

21        Q.   And after the war, what became of your centre?  Did it assume a

22     new -- a new status?

23        A.   After the war, this centre continued to function as a regional

24     centre for monitoring information and cryptographic data protection in

25     Pale.  However, up to 1998 in -- during the period of the war, this is

Page 17621

 1     what it was.

 2        Q.   And during the period of war, was your centre in Pale the

 3     republic centre for communications and cryptodatic protection, for the

 4     entire Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes.  Between 1992 and 1998, the communications and cryptographic

 6     data protection centre in Pale was on the level of the republic for the

 7     entire Republika Srpska.  As well as for the service for monitoring and

 8     information.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I think we can go back into open session for the

10     time being.

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

13             MR. HANNIS:

14        Q.   Witness, if I ask a question to which you think the answer might

15     reveal your name, and you have a concern about that, to please let us

16     know that you might wish to answer that in private session.  Would you

17     please?

18        A.   That's fine.  No problem.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Prior to the war breaking out in April of 1992, as I

20     understand it, there were a system of alarming and reporting centres

21     throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   And the job of these centres was, among other things, to alert

24     the authorities and alert and inform the population about natural

25     disasters or man-made disasters or the threat of armed invasion, things

Page 17622

 1     like that?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   After April 1992, when the conflict began and there was a

 4     republic centre for communications in Pale, what other task did that

 5     centre perform rather than simply informing and alerting?  What was its

 6     role concerning communications for the republic?

 7        A.   In April, when the centre started working as a republic centre of

 8     communications and cryptographic data protection and monitoring and

 9     information in Pale, it was our obligation to monitor the situation in

10     the territory, to monitor the situation in the air and on water and to

11     discover as early as possible all dangers that might threaten the

12     civilian population, army units or institutions, and other structures of

13     the socio-political community.

14             As for communications we worked on cryptographic data protection

15     of written information.  However, at the beginning of this unfortunate

16     period of the war in early April, there were a lot of problems in the

17     functioning of the communications systems, as well as in establishing

18     visual monitoring in the field because of the combat operations and

19     because of the low number of people who had the training to be

20     distributed in these centres.

21             In the first months of the war, April and May, until about June,

22     we didn't have a developed system to protect military data.  We didn't

23     have a developed code so that we could protect information.  We were able

24     to communicate with the town centre in Sarajevo throughout the month of

25     April, and even during part of May, until we encountered certain problems

Page 17623

 1     so we lost this communication.  It was cut off.  That's what

 2     circumstances were like.

 3             We had all kinds of communication with the socio-political

 4     communities and with the organs of the authorities which were located in

 5     Pale, as well as with other institutions.  And due to a lack of men, we

 6     had the role of republic centre, regional centre and municipal centre, of

 7     the cryptographic data protection system and of monitoring and

 8     information.

 9        Q.   In addition to that system in the Ministry of Defence, in 1992,

10     what were the other primary communications networks or systems in the

11     Republika Srpska?  Did the VRS have its own?

12        A.   Yes.  The armed forces have their own communications system.  The

13     Ministry of Interior had its own communication system, independent of the

14     army, and independent of the communications of the socio-political

15     community.  And the Ministry of Defence had its own communication

16     systems, and these communication system were independent of each other

17     and they were able to function independently.

18        Q.   You mentioned the communications of the socio-political

19     community.  Was that something that was served by the Ministry of

20     Defence's system, or is that a fourth system, in addition to Ministry of

21     Defence, Ministry of Interior, and the VRS?

22        A.   That was within the centres of the Ministry of Defence.

23        Q.   And in the Ministry of Defence, who -- who was the primary

24     customer, if you will, in terms of communication?  For what primary

25     individuals or institutions or organs did the Ministry of Defence furnish

Page 17624

 1     communications in 1992?  Apart from the Ministry of Defence itself.

 2        A.   The primary purpose and the function of the republic centre and

 3     of the other centres that were linked based on the chain of command to

 4     the republic centre of the Ministry of Defence was to service the organs

 5     of the authorities, the civilian structures of the authorities, from the

 6     lower level to the very highest level.  The Presidency, the government,

 7     ministries of all organs in the government, and the municipalities.

 8        Q.   At the highest level, did that include the assembly for the Serb

 9     people, or the Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Yes.  Because the Assembly of Republika Srpska was a civilian

11     organ.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In the communications centre, the republic

13     communications centre in Pale in 1992, can you tell the Judges what kinds

14     of communication equipment there was?

15        A.   We had three departments.  We had a radio department; a telephone

16     department; and a cryptographic data protection department.

17        Q.   I take it from that description, then, you had phone, telephones;

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Radios, I understand from other witnesses that included both

21     short wave and ultra short wave?

22        A.   Yes.  We had short-wave radios, and we had ultra short-wave

23     radios.

24        Q.   Fax machines?

25        A.   We had fax machines where the telephone and teleprinting service

Page 17625

 1     was.

 2        Q.   I take it from that answer you also had teletype machines or

 3     teleprinter in your centre.

 4        A.   Yes.  We had a teleprinter in the telegraph service.

 5        Q.   And did you have radio relay capability in that centre?

 6        A.   Yes.  We had radio relay communications as well.  Wire

 7     communications, radio relay communications, and radio communications.

 8        Q.   And I take it, if none of that worked, you also had human

 9     couriers for purposes of delivering communications?

10        A.   Yes, there were couriers as well.  There was a developed courier

11     system of communications.

12        Q.   I'd like to have you take a look at an exhibit.  This is tab 3 in

13     the binder that you have down there.  It's Exhibit 1D170.

14             This is a document you will have seen before dated the 16th of

15     April, 1992.

16             Do you remember seeing this document before, sir?

17        A.   Yes.  I saw the document before.

18        Q.   Let me go into private session for --

19        A.   I saw it perhaps 20 days ago.

20        Q.   Let me go into private session for one or two question, if I may.

21     [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.  Thank

23     you.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Sir, if you would look, it's at the bottom, near the bottom of

Page 17626

 1     the second page in your B/C/S and it's the bottom of page 2 in English.

 2     Under the name of the minister, Bogdan Subotic, there's a part that in my

 3     English translation says, "Transmitted by Vukovic on 16 April 1992 at

 4     1006."

 5             Is that you?

 6        A.   Yes, that is me.

 7        Q.   What is this in terms of what kind of document it is.  Is this a

 8     telegram or a teletype, can you tell me, please?

 9        A.   Since we did not have a system of cryptographic data protection

10     on 16 April this document was teletyped and sent through open

11     communication means.  And you can see the number of our teleprinter

12     service at Pale, which is 41505 and you also see the number of the

13     receiving service, 45100.  This telegram was sent by teleprinter.  This

14     teleprinter connection was between Pale and Banja Luka.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going go back into open session and when we are

16     in open session I'll ask you some further questions about this document

17     and ask you not give any answer that would indicate that you were the

18     sender of it, please.

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21             MR. HANNIS:

22        Q.   And on the first page of this document, can you tell us what the

23     0959 at the top refers to?  Is that the time that this message would have

24     been started to be sent?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 17627

 1        Q.   There is a reference number --

 2        A.   That's the time when ...

 3        Q.   Go ahead.  Please finish.

 4        A.   At that time, the contact was established between the two

 5     teleprinter services.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And the reference number, 1-92, does that indicate

 7     that this is the first message that's been sent by the new Ministry of

 8     National Defence in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 9        A.   Judging by the document, that should have been the first telegram

10     that was ever sent on the 16th of April, 1992; hence the number 1/92.

11        Q.   And if could you go to the second page, at the bottom where

12     there's a typed signature for the National Defence minister, Mr. Subotic,

13     there's a "Transmitted By," on such a date at 1006, and then it says:

14     "Received" by a certain individual for Banja Luka.

15             In terms of how the teletype works can you explain to me when and

16     how the name of the recipient gets on the document?  If, for example, I

17     were sitting in Pale typing this document into the teleprinter to be sent

18     from Pale to Banja Luka, who types in that name at the end where it says:

19     "Received."

20             Is that done in Banja Luka?

21        A.   Yes, that is added in Banja Luka.  The operative who received the

22     telegram he also signed the receipt of the telegram.

23        Q.   And when you say "signed it," you mean signed it electronically

24     by typing in his name?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 17628

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 2        A.   This telegram could have been sent manually or it could also have

 3     been sent by means of perforated band.  On the end of the sending of

 4     either a telegram or any other document the operative who received it,

 5     signed the document off to confirm that he, indeed, received it at a

 6     certain time.  And can you see it in the stamp at the end of the

 7     document.

 8        Q.   That was my next question.  The stamp at the end of the document,

 9     can you tell us where that's from and when and where it would have been

10     put on this document?  Is it a stamp at Pale or a stamp at Banja Luka?

11        A.   When you look at the stamp, you can see that the document was

12     received under number 440/800 on the 16th of April 1992, at 1010 hours

13     than it was received by teleprinter.  I can't read the signature.  It's

14     illegible.  I wouldn't be able to tell you who received the telegram,

15     whether it was Jerko Batinar, whether he was the one who put his

16     signature in the stamp, I don't know.  There should be a log-book for all

17     the outgoing telegrams, as well as log-book of all the incoming telegrams

18     in Banja Luka where all the received telegrams are recorded.  I can't

19     really tell you that that was that.  I would have to consult the

20     log-books which I don't have.

21             If you could show me one of those log-books, I would be able to

22     complete my answer.  I would be able to tell you who signed the stamp,

23     whether it was Jerko Batinar or somebody else.  The signature itself is

24     not legible enough for me to tell.

25        Q.   Okay.  One more thing before we leave this document.  At the top

Page 17629

 1     of the first page, there is what appears to be a fax header.  Do you see

 2     that?

 3        A.   I can see that.

 4        Q.   And what does that indicate to you?  Was this actual hard copy of

 5     this teletype message then also faxed after it was received, or can you

 6     say?

 7        A.   The top of the document, you can see that the memorandum was in

 8     the centre in Banja Luka and as far as I can remember, the number

 9     indicated on the document was the number of the fax in the Banja Luka

10     centre.

11             I can't tell you whether the operative faxed this document to

12     somebody else.  I don't know that.  I'm not able to see it from the

13     document without the log-book.  If I saw the log-book I would be able to

14     tell you who the document was sent to.

15             Since Banja Luka was a regional centre at the time, and this

16     document applied to all Serbian municipalities, I suppose that he did fax

17     the document to the municipalities in the Krajina region.

18        Q.   Thank --

19        A.   And that's what I can conclude, based on just looking at the

20     document.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have all the log-books I would like to have

22     to show you, and I don't have all the time to show you everything.

23             One last thing:  There is a stamp on the first page in the upper

24     right-hand corner.  Can you tell us what that is, where it's from?

25        A.   I'm not familiar with the stamp.

Page 17630

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2        A.   And judging by the inscription, I can see that the stamp had

 3     something to do with the Krajina region.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If you could next take a look at the document

 5     that's behind tab 5 in your binder.  This is Exhibit P467.

 6             This is a document that's dated the 4th of May, 1992.  And if you

 7     would look at the second page, you'll see the name of the sender as being

 8     a Colonel Miodrag Sajic of the Regional Secretariat for NO.  Can you tell

 9     me what NO stands for in this context?

10        A.   The Regional Secretariat for National Defence.

11        Q.   Did you know Colonel Sajic?

12        A.   No, I did not.

13        Q.   Do you know how many Regional Centres of National Defence there

14     were in May of 1992 in the Republika Srpska, or the Serb Republic of

15     Bosnia?

16        A.   After such a long time, I can only try to recall how many there

17     were.  But I'm not sure that I will be able to give you the exact number.

18             You know, I have already told you that had a car accident.  I had

19     a retrograde and antegrade amnesia.  It is possible that I will not be

20     able to remember.  I forgot a lot of things.  There was a regional

21     Secretariat for National Defence in Banja Luka.  There was also one in

22     Bijeljina.  There was regional Secretariat for National Defence in

23     Trebinje.  There was another one at Pale, in the then-Serbian Sarajevo.

24     And there was also Regional Secretariat in Doboj, I think.  This is as

25     much as I can recall after such a long time.

Page 17631

 1        Q.   Okay.  And as I understand it, the MOD republic communications

 2     centre had links with all of those regional centres at this time;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   There were certain periods of time where -- when there were

 5     connections but those connections were rather impaired, so contacts were

 6     not so easy to establish.  There were very frequent outages of

 7     electricity, there were also works in the territory of the armed forces

 8     or some groups, telephone cables were damaged so it was not so easy to

 9     establish communication at all times.  Therefore, there were periods when

10     we had to use some other means in order to be able to communicate tasks

11     to each other.

12             We were successful [as interpreted] all the time.  We had to use

13     open communications means, even radio communications at times.

14        Q.   And you see from the first paragraph in this document it makes

15     reference to that 16 April decision of Minister Subotic that we looked at

16     before; correct?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I'm looking at the document I

19     can see that it is the 16th of April.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... I need to

21     mention in transcript, 26, 20, I believe the witness said, "We were not

22     successful all the time."  And it was recorded as, "We were successful."

23             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sure that will be caught when the transcript is

24     reviewed.

25        Q.   Yes, and I'm sorry, did I understand your answer, Witness, that

Page 17632

 1     this document is referring to that 16 April dispatch number 1-92 from the

 2     minister of defence?

 3        A.   From the preamble of this decision that I have before me, I can

 4     see that the document was number 1-92 dated 16 April 1992.  However,

 5     after such a long time, without consulting the log-book of outgoing and

 6     incoming telegrams, I cannot say anything for certain.

 7             This is not the original of the document.  Therefore, I wouldn't

 8     be able to tell you whether this document corresponds to the original

 9     document.  This is a photocopy; that's what I'm saying.

10        Q.   I understand that.

11        A.   It's not an original.

12        Q.   I understand that.  But 1-92 from the Ministry of Defence, is

13     that one that we looked at earlier, announcing mobilisation and the

14     declaration of an imminent threat of war; correct?

15        A.   It is possible.  However, after such a long time --

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   I cannot interpret the minister's decision or the decision of any

18     other official, for that matter --

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   --  anybody who used the services of our centre.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let me show you the next tab.  Tab 6.  This is

22     Exhibit P555.

23             This is also dated the 4th of May, 1992.  And looking at the

24     format, can you tell me what kind of document this is?  Would this have

25     been sent by teletype or teleprinter?  Can you say?

Page 17633

 1        A.   It was probably sent as a teletype message.

 2             This is a document that was sent by a Siemens teleprinter

 3     machine.  However, I have not seen this decision before.  And the

 4     signature is of the centre chief, Stojan Zupljanin.

 5        Q.   Okay.  If you will look at the first page at the top, it's

 6     addressed to all public security stations and it says:  "We received a

 7     dispatch from the government of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina

 8     and we hereby forward to you in full ..."

 9             If you look what's below it appears that they're forwarding that

10     document that we just looked at, from Colonel Sajic which makes reference

11     to the 01- -- the 1-92 decision of April 16th from the minister of

12     defence.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, can I see that.  I do.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, I've ...

17             However, I've not seen Stojan Zupljanin sign his name as the

18     centre chief and then somebody called Dusko.  I suppose that this was

19     sent by the MUP communications system.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like you next to take a look at tab 7.  This is

21     65 ter number 3362.  And your first page in the B/C/S hard copy is simply

22     a cover page which I think is translated into English as -- as

23     "register," or "registry."

24             Could you take a look at the second page in the B/C/S.  Do you

25     recognise the name of the person that signed on this document, which

Page 17634

 1     purports to be a registry for the Republika Srpska Presidency and

 2     National Assembly in Pale.  Do you recognise the name?

 3        A.   Yes.  That was a lady, Mrs. Rajka Stanisic.  She worked in the

 4     office of the president of the Assembly, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, and the

 5     stamp also belonged to that office.  But this is a copy from the

 6     log-book.

 7             To answer your question, I'd like to say that I did know

 8     Mrs. Rajka Stanisic personally.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And I want to ask you, did you know a man named

10     Dragan Kezunovic, who worked for communications in the RS MUP in 1992?

11        A.   Yes, I did not see him that often.  However, during the first few

12     months, Mr. Kezunovic often visited our centre Colonel Kotlica, Milorad,

13     was working with me, and he was the head of the cryptographic data

14     protection, and he was an officer of the Ministry of Defence of the

15     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        Q.   Let me ask you about a man named Radovan Pejic who worked at the

17     CSB Sarajevo for the RS MUP in 1992 in communications.  Did you know him?

18        A.   I know Mr. Pejic from the Security Services Centre of Serbian

19     Sarajevo.  However, I only met him after the war.

20        Q.   Thank you for that --

21        A.   I don't know if he worked there at the time or not.  I didn't

22     know him at the time.

23        Q.   Thank you for that.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, this is would be a good time for me to

25     break, if that's convenient for you.

Page 17635

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, as I indicated earlier, we take breaks

 2     in the course of today, and now is the time for the first break.  We will

 3     resume with your testimony when we return in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Before we continue with the witness, I just need to

 9     bring counsel up to date with where we are.  I'll -- we'll let you know

10     as we are told but as for tomorrow, for certain administrative reasons we

11     couldn't adjust the scheduled afternoon sitting to the morning, so when

12     we rise at 7.00 we would resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.  I will let

13     you know what the position is, for the two following days, Wednesday and

14     Thursday as soon as we are informed.

15             MR. HANNIS:  In connection with that, Your Honour, I should

16     advise you that we have been informed that the next witness to follow

17     this one won't be ready till Wednesday.  He was called in anticipation of

18     the estimated time for cross-examination of this witness that he wouldn't

19     begin until that day, so I think he's only arriving tonight or tomorrow

20     morning and won't be ready to begin before then.

21             So we have as much time as we need tomorrow if we don't finish

22     this witness today.  And I alert you that in the event that there is

23     something else that we may usefully spend or time on as a group or

24     separately.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But he would be available by Wednesday morning.

Page 17636

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, yes.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  You may continue with your examination, Mr. Hannis.

 5             MR. HANNIS:

 6        Q.   Witness, next I would like you to take a look at the document

 7     that's in tab 4 of the binder.

 8             These are -- I will tell you.  These are excerpts from a

 9     communications log-book which we have evidence that the -- the first --

10     the first 50 entries were for the RS MUP headquarters at Vrace in the

11     beginning weeks of the war in April and May of 1992 and a later portion

12     of the book was used by CSB Sarajevo.

13             And so the first thing I want to ask you about is, I think it's

14     page 4 in your hard copy.  It's item number 18.  Do you see there beside

15     item 18 a reference that says:  "MUP BiH."

16             It's a report and it's sent to:  Government, Serb republic?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry to interrupt, counsel.  If could you please

18     mention the number of the document for the record.  Thank you.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you very much and this is Exhibit P1428 in

20     evidence.  And the e-court page, I think is, 4 for both the English and

21     bias.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, Witness, for that interruption.  Do you see the item

23     I'm asking about?

24        A.   Just a moment, please.  Bear with me.  18?  Report?

25        Q.   Yes, yes.  To the government Serb republic and there's a phone

Page 17637

 1     number, 783460.

 2             Let me ask you; if a document were sent by CSB Sarajevo in late

 3     April of 1992, would it have gone to the MOD centre in Pale, if it was

 4     meant for the government of the Serb Republic; do you know?

 5        A.   No.  It should not have gone there.  The stations all had their

 6     system of communications and they could send their dispatches directly to

 7     the government without those dispatches having to go through the MOD.

 8        Q.   And to where would that document sent from MUP headquarters

 9     communications in Vrace have been sent to reach the government?  To what

10     person or what building?

11        A.   It would reach the secretary of the government.  I can see a

12     signature.  I don't know who the signature belongs to.  Whether it

13     belongs to the courier or to the person who dispatched the dispatch.  In

14     any case, it would arrive at the desk of the secretary of the government.

15        Q.   And who would that be?  What person; if you know.

16        A.   At the time, the secretary of the government was Mr. Nedeljko

17     Vakic.

18        Q.   And I know it's been a long time, but do you recognise that phone

19     number, 783460?

20        A.   As for the number, 783460, we had a similar number to this one at

21     our centre.  I don't know whether that would be that number.  I believe

22     this is the fax number for the government.

23        Q.   And where was that fax machine physically located in April and

24     May of 1992; if you know?  Was that in the MOD centre?

25        A.   We had our telefax at the centre and the government had its own

Page 17638

 1     fax machine on its premises.  And so did all the police stations.

 2        Q.   Do you know where the premises where the government and

 3     Presidency sat were in April and May of 1992?

 4        A.   The government and Presidency sat in Panorama Hotel, some of the

 5     staff.  And the rest were at the Kikinda facility.

 6        Q.   Could you look at the very next page at item 21 in that list of

 7     sent and received dispatches.  You see it's sent by MUP Vrace, Sarajevo.

 8     It appears to be a summary, a security events report and it is sent to

 9     the president of the government at that same phone number.

10        A.   783460?

11        Q.   I think you've told us enough about that.  Let me ask you to move

12     on to -- I think you have to go on about five or six pages to find item

13     number 81 and 82.

14        A.   Okay.

15        Q.   These are --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   These are dated the 18th of July, 1992.  The first one is

18     information on the work of MUP and military police.  And the second is an

19     order for establishment of mixed traffic check-points.

20             There are to be sent to or given to SRBH staff.  Can you tell me

21     who that refers to in that context?  That's the Serbian Republic of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but the staff of what?  Is that the government?  The

23     Presidency?  Do you know?

24        A.   I don't know.  I don't know what institution is meant by this.

25        Q.   And --

Page 17639

 1        A.   I can see the word "staff."

 2        Q.   My English translation translates farther as "Main Staff,

 3     security organ, Serbian army of the Serb BH."

 4             In July of 1992, the VRS was in existence.  Can you tell us by

 5     what means and through which facilities a message from CSB Sarajevo would

 6     go to reach the Main Staff of the army?  Would that go through MOD

 7     centre, or did the MUP have a direct connection from the CSB Sarajevo to

 8     the army?

 9        A.   I am not familiar with the organisation of communications within

10     the MUP.  However, at that time, the MUP had a lot of problem with

11     organising its system of communications.  And I think that for a long

12     time they didn't function properly and they could not protect information

13     for a long time.  And that's why our centre sometime provided services to

14     them and held them with the transmission of certain documents to their

15     end user.  We used our communications system to do that.  We had our own

16     problems.  Those were the first months of combat operations, and those

17     communications systems would be down quite often.

18             As I look at this document, I can't tell you anything else about

19     it.  This document doesn't emanate from my sector.  Besides, I don't see

20     in the document that the document was sent to our centre and then

21     transmitted through our centre, the republic centre of communications,

22     and cryptographic data protection.  I really can't tell you how this was

23     sent.  This is a copy from a log-book.  Somebody put a remark in order to

24     confirm the receipt of the document and file it away.  I don't know how

25     they sent this document.  This is a report or perhaps not.  I don't even

Page 17640

 1     know that.  I can't tell you because I don't see anything to indicate

 2     that.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you:  Were you aware, did a CSB -- or particularly the

 4     CSB in Sarajevo have a direct communications link with the VRS in July of

 5     1992, do you know?  Or would they have go throughout MOD centre?

 6        A.   In June, or July, rather, when if come to the MUP, I don't know

 7     whether the MUP had a direct communications link with the Main Staff or

 8     not.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I think it's three more

10     pages to item number 1048.  And, again, we're still looking at the

11     communications log-book for CSB Sarajevo.

12             And this is an item dated 7 November 1992.  It's a solution to

13     protect against fire and the issue of ownership of the Pale culture

14     centre, sent to the Pale Municipal Assembly, the mayor, the president of

15     the Executive Committee.  Do you know if CSB Sarajevo for the MUP had a

16     direct communications link to the political offices of the municipality

17     in Pale or is that something that would go through your centre?

18             I'm sorry, hold your answer for a minute while Mr. Zecevic raises

19     a procedural matter?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I have -- I have a

21     serious concern with the -- with the line of questions that my friend now

22     is posing to this witness.

23             One of the witnesses --

24             MR. HANNIS:  Could we ask the witness to take his headphones off.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, could the witness please remove his headphones.

Page 17641

 1     Yes.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue?

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, one of the witnesses for the Office

 5     of the Prosecutor was a chief of the CSB Communication Department.

 6     Department of Communication of CSB Sarajevo.  It was never put to him

 7     or -- or was he asked that, is there a connection between the CSB

 8     Sarajevo or General Staff or CSB Sarajevo and Pale?

 9             I simply do not understand the line of the -- of the questions

10     that we are now asking the witness who doesn't obviously know anything

11     about it, and when we had the first-hand knowledge from the witness who

12     was here, none of these questions was asked of him.  He was able to give

13     us a -- a -- the best evidence about that.

14             That is just my observation, Your Honours, and I don't really

15     understand this -- where this line is taking us.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Isn't the short answer to that, Mr. Zecevic, that if

17     the witness is unable to answer the question that is being posed, he

18     would say he doesn't know, and if the Prosecution has confused matters by

19     the way they have led their evidence of the several witnesses then that

20     is something that would -- I'm sure that Defence would not hesitate to

21     remind the Chamber of when it comes to final submissions.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  The witness may replace his headphones, please.

Page 17642

 1             MR. HANNIS:

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I think my question was - I don't know if you

 3     recall - is, do you know whether or not CSB Sarajevo had a direct

 4     communications link to the political offices in Pale in November 1992 to

 5     the Pale Municipal Assembly or the mayor or the president of the

 6     Executive Committee.  Do you know?

 7        A.   I cannot provide an answer to that question, because I don't

 8     know.

 9             But since they were at Pale, they could have used a courier to

10     send some documents.  It sounds logical.  It is -- I don't know whether

11     they had a direct communications link but they didn't need one, neither

12     would the president of the municipality or the president of the Executive

13     Committee.  I don't know.

14        Q.   Okay.  One more, or maybe two more.  I think it's the next page,

15     item number 1534 is -- the content is:  Rejection of requests for

16     vehicle.  Referred to Ministry of Defence.  Apparently sent to the RS

17     Ministry of Defence.  Was there a direct communications link between CSB

18     Sarajevo and the Ministry of Defence, do you know?  In December 1992?

19        A.   During that period, no.  In December 1992 there were links

20     between the communications centres, that is, the communications centre of

21     the MUP and the com centre of the republic.  But as the headquarters was

22     at Pale, everything was carried by couriers.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

24        A.   I can see here that the request to be given a vehicle was denied.

25        Q.   All right.  And then I think I have one more.  I am afraid you

Page 17643

 1     have to go backwards.  I want to find item number 292.  And then we will

 2     be done with that tab.

 3             The sender is listed as the SR Presidency, it's a document

 4     numbered 01-518/92, dated 22 August 1992.  The content:  Accreditation of

 5     reports from the territory of SR.  And the dispatch is given to

 6     apparently Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Mitrovic and all the departments in the

 7     CSB Sarajevo, so this appears to be a document they received from the

 8     Presidency.  Do you know how that document would have been transmitted

 9     from the Presidency in order to reach the CSB Sarajevo in August of 1992?

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic has a --

11             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Witness, don't answer yet.  We have a

12     legal matter to discuss.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it's basically not legal.  It's again an

14     issue of interpretation.  I believe the -- the original says --

15             MR. HANNIS:  Again, could we ask the witness to take his

16     headphones off?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I?

18             I believe the 292 document is accreditation of the reporters from

19     the territory, not the reports.  Accreditation of reporters on the

20     territory of SR.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Could we have the witness put his headphones back

22     on.  I can ask him to help us with that.

23        Q.   Witness, in terms of the -- the name of the document or the

24     content of the document, could you read the B/C/S so we can get an

25     interpretation?  There's a question about what one of the words should

Page 17644

 1     say in English.

 2             Could you just read it out for us?

 3        A.   Serbian Republic, Presidency 01-518/92 of 22 August 1992.

 4     Accreditation of reporters from the territory of the Serbian republic.

 5     CSB Borovcanin, Mitrovic, all services.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And now could you answer my question:  If this was

 7     sent from the Presidency to reach CS -- CSB Sarajevo, how would it go, if

 8     you know?  Would that go through your centre or would it go from the

 9     Presidency directly to MUP headquarters or directly to the CSB, if you

10     know?

11        A.   I cannot say, based on this register how exactly this document or

12     letter was forwarded to the CSB; that is to Mr. Borovcanin and

13     Mr. Mitrovic and all services, because this is a copy of a register that

14     is unfamiliar to me, and I cannot know if any document with such a number

15     was delivered to the centre at that time.

16             From today's vantage point, I would be led to conclude that this

17     document was not delivered this way from the Presidency to the CSB, but

18     had to travel by another route.  That is my opinion.

19        Q.   And "by another route," what do you mean?  Through whom or what?

20        A.   Through a courier or through a regular exchange of mail.  A

21     courier could come from the Presidency and take the mail to the MUP.

22     That would be the way.  I cannot see from this that this document was

23     dispatched in a different manner.

24        Q.   You cannot rule out that it was sent by electronic means or by

25     radio or by fax from your centre to the MUP headquarters for furthering

Page 17645

 1     onto the CSB, can you?

 2        A.   After so much time, I cannot be precise as to the way this

 3     document was handed over to the CSB because from the -- this registry and

 4     the sum review of incoming and outgoing mail, I cannot tell which route

 5     this took.  Probably it was delivered by a courier, but that's an

 6     assumption of mine.  Based on such registers as this, I cannot make

 7     accurate statements.  I don't have the document in front of me, or

 8     anything else that has to do with accrediting reporters from the

 9     territory of the RS or the SR.  If I had the document in front of me or

10     the telegram, I may be able to say more.  But as things stand, this is

11     all I can say.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's see if can I help with one thing, one aspect.  If we

13     can look at tab 7; that's 65 ter 3362.  This is the one that's described

14     as the registry for the Presidency and the National Assembly that has a

15     Ms. Rajka Stanisic's name on it.

16             If you could turn to the page that has item number 01-518, the

17     ERN is 0084-5621.  I believe that's page 20 of the English in e-court and

18     page 56 of the B/C/S.

19        A.   All right.  I've found it.

20        Q.   And you see that item number is 01-51892 and it appears to be an

21     accreditation of the -- my English says reports, but I think from the

22     other it is probably "reporters" from the territory of RS dated 18th of

23     August.  This, indeed, appears to be that document that was referred to

24     in the CSB Sarajevo log-book.  Would you agree?

25        A.   It probably is.  But I don't know the handwriting.  And at the

Page 17646

 1     republican centre, no registers were kept -- no handwritten registers

 2     were kept.  But, again, after so much time, I really cannot say anything

 3     about a document which was sent from the National Assembly and entered

 4     into their log-book.  I'm not able to say anything about it because that

 5     document never reached me.  I cannot say anything about its route either.

 6     If you wish to show me one of my log-books to show whether anybody sent

 7     it, then I may be able to comment.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm again sorry.  Maybe can you clarify with the

 9     witness, Mr. Hannis.  41, 7, I know that the witness didn't say that:

10     "No handwritten registers were kept."  He meant something completely

11     different.

12             MR. HANNIS:

13        Q.   Witness, it's been advised that your answer may have been

14     misrecorded.  At the beginning you said you didn't know the handwriting

15     here in -- in this register for the Presidency and the National Assembly.

16             And you said:

17             "At the republican centre, no registers were kept, no handwritten

18     registers were kept."

19             Is that what you said, or did you say something else?

20        A.   No, I didn't say that no handwritten registers were kept but that

21     I was unfamiliar with the handwriting in this register which is a

22     register of the Assembly of the RS because they had their own registers

23     and log-books; whereas at the centre, there were other log-books such as

24     log-books of incoming telegrams or outgoing telegrams and so on.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 17647

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender 65 ter 3362.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  For what purpose exactly, Mr. Hannis?

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, this is --

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because if I can just put my question:  I'm not

 5     quite sure that I understand how this is relevant.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, one of the contested issues that still

 7     remains in this case is the manner of communications within the

 8     Republika Srpska.  This is a log-book kept regarding communications from

 9     the Presidency and from the National Assembly that were sent out

10     throughout the Republika Srpska.  I think you'll see there were over

11     2.000-some entries during the time period of the log-book.  I've shown

12     just one connection where a document that is in this log-book shows up in

13     Exhibit P1428, the CSB Sarajevo log-book, demonstrating that it was

14     dispersed down to the level of CSB.  And that's just one example.  But

15     it's a contemporaneous log of those Presidency and National Assembly

16     documents.  You will see other links, and I don't think there's any

17     question about the authenticity of this document.  This was seized by

18     Mr. Pat Treanor and two investigators from the OTP in December 1997 from

19     a Mr. Milos Vukasinovic, who -- an official of the RS Ministry of

20     Justice.  So I think we've shown authenticity, and I think from my

21     comments, there is relevance and probative value particularly on the

22     issue of communications and communications between alleged members and

23     participants of the joint criminal enterprise.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, we do object.

25             First of all, the witness -- this witness has nothing to do with

Page 17648

 1     this log-books [sic], never saw them, it was not within his purview,

 2     never had these documents before, so he cannot give us any kind of

 3     indication to the authenticity of these documents or provenance or

 4     whatever.

 5             Now, the second thing, if my learned friend suggests that this --

 6     this particular document or dispatch, the accreditation of the reporters

 7     was sent to MUP, I would like to know where did he found that reference,

 8     from this log-book.  Because this log-book does not contain the -- the --

 9     the intended recipient of the -- of any of the documents.  We don't know

10     even -- even if that's -- even if that's a log-book of all the documents

11     that were prepared.  Maybe some were sent, maybe some were not.  Really,

12     on the basis of such a scarce information that we have from the contents

13     of this document as it appears right now, I don't think we can -- that it

14     reaches the threshold to be admitted.

15             Thank you very much.

16             MR. HANNIS:  May I reply?

17             Your Honours, this witness has identified Ms. Rajka Stanisic as

18     the employee who worked for the -- as a secretariat for the National

19     Assembly.  She is the person identified on the cover of the register.  It

20     is logical that she would be a person to keep this book.

21             I didn't really hear a response to what I said about where this

22     document was seized and who it was seized from.  I guess I'm asking if my

23     learned friend has a serious objection about whether this document is

24     authentic.  We -- we haven't listed Ms. Stanisic as a witness because we

25     have a limited number of witnesses to call.  And if he wants a document

Page 17649

 1     that goes to MUP, there is one at item number 180, which is from

 2     President Karadzic ordering that two platoons of special police forces

 3     report to Tomo Kovac, so there are documents like that referred to within

 4     this registry.  That document would be 65 ter 1581, not on my list to be

 5     used with this witness but a document contained within the register log;

 6     that's 65 ter 3362.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  As I understand it, Mr. Hannis, I don't think that

 8     there is any challenge to the provenance or authenticity.  I shouldn't

 9     say provenance, authenticity of the proposed exhibit.  The reservation

10     that I have is that we're dealing with a document which, arguably, is

11     illustrative or an example of these communications going back and forth.

12     But the -- its admission as an exhibit would form the basis for

13     submissions and argument down the road, and my question is:  How does

14     this add to -- how does this assist the Chamber beyond similar documents

15     which we already have no shortage of?  That's -- that's my difficulty,

16     Mr. Hannis.  It appears to be somewhat vague and insubstantial by itself

17     and it doesn't assist to add it at this stage.

18             MR. HANNIS:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I feel that I am letting

19     you down because I haven't been able to persuade you.  I would think that

20     in a document-heavy case like this, you would relish the opportunity to

21     have a document like this, which has 2100 documents from the Presidency

22     and the Assembly all in one place, listed by numbers, which will help you

23     cross refreshes them when you find them appearing in other places.  It

24     has some descriptions of persons that you have heard testify here which

25     will corroborated some of their evidence about when they went on a trip

Page 17650

 1     somewhere because there will be a travel order for that witness on or

 2     about that date when he says that he was at a meeting in Zvornik, for

 3     example.  I -- and it's all conveniently located in one document.

 4             If I can't persuade you now, I'll try to do it through a written

 5     submission in the bar table motion.  But I would think this is something

 6     that you would like to have.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just one clarification.  I'm not --

 8     it was my understanding that Mr. Hannis is offering this document, and I

 9     believe Your Honours commented accordingly, as -- as a log-book of

10     communications.  I would like that clarification from Mr. Hannis.  Is

11     Mr. Hannis saying this document is the log-book of communications coming

12     from the Presidency and the Assembly?

13             MR. HANNIS:  I'm saying it's a registry of documents from the

14     Presidency and the Assembly, and I'm saying other evidence will show that

15     these documents moved through means of communication to other

16     participants of the alleged joint criminal enterprise.  And some of the

17     communication's contents itself related to actions that we say were part

18     of the joint criminal enterprise.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Well, you heard our objection anyway.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber is of the view that the document may be

22     received as an exhibit and therefore admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01723, Your Honours.

24             Your Honours, the 65 ter number is 03362.  Thank you.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 17651

 1        Q.   And I would now, Witness, like you to take a look at the document

 2     that's at tab 8 of the binder you have there.  You mentioned you would

 3     like us to try and talk about some log-books from the republican centre.

 4             This is 65 ter 1303.  Do you recognise that cover page?  It's

 5     telegrams -- log for telegrams to be transmitted over the radio between

 6     April and November 1992.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Could we can go into private session for one or two

 9     questions.

10      [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in private session.

12     Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Sir, is -- are these pages that were copied out of that republic

15     centre log-book and given by you to investigators from the OTP back in

16     1998, I believe?

17        A.   Yes, I believe that it was that way, more or less.

18        Q.   And after that meeting - I think it was in February 1998 where

19     you gave these few pages to the OTP investigators - do you know what

20     happened to the original log-book from which these pages come?

21        A.   In 1998, when the authorities moved from Pale to Banja Luka, the

22     Ministry of Defence also was moved to Banja Luka.  Part of the documents

23     were taken to Banja Luka and others remained in use at the centre at Pale

24     until around 2004, when the centre was searched and some documents

25     pertaining to the war period from 1992 through 1996 were seized and taken

Page 17652

 1     probably to the office of the ICTY in Sarajevo or Nedzarici to be

 2     precise.

 3             Assistance was provided by the staff the CSB Sarajevo with -- the

 4     headquarters of which was at Pale.  The team leader was there too.  I

 5     don't need to mention his name.  We -- I can tell that by looking at the

 6     signature on the document.  And some of the documents were taken away

 7     during that period; whereas, the other portion of the document was handed

 8     over to the municipalities when the Ministry of Defence of the RS and the

 9     Ministry of Defence of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina became --

10     were merged to become a single Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11     Those documents were then given to Banja Luka and the municipalities.

12     Where those documents are, since it happened five or six years ago, well,

13     they may be in some office probably, at least I can draw that conclusion

14     from the information I have at the office of the old headquarters, or

15     they were also moved to Banja Luka.  I don't know exactly what happened

16     to the documents, but some documents probably still remain at the old

17     site of the fire-fighting building, which was the seat of the monitoring

18     and information centre at Pale.

19             This is an excerpt from the log-book of radio communications.

20        Q.   And you have not seen -- you have not seen the original from

21     which these excerpts came since 19 -- well, since they went to

22     Banja Luka; is that correct?

23        A.   This log-book of telegrams was kept at the republican centre in

24     Pale.  I recognised the handwriting.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But my question was:  You have not seen the original

Page 17653

 1     since it went to Banja Luka.

 2        A.   The republican centre in Pale has not been in function since

 3     1998.  And the centre stopped working in 2004.

 4        Q.   Let me interrupt you.

 5        A.   And it --

 6        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  My question is:  You have not seen the

 7     original telegram log-book from which these excerpts came since they --

 8     since the original went to Banja Luka; correct?

 9        A.   I have not seen them since then.

10        Q.   Let me --

11        A.   Since the documents were handed over, I have not seen them.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the excerpt, page -- number 190, item 190,

13     dated 13 July 1992.  The sender is Bijeljina and the addressee is

14     Banja Luka.  Did this telegram go through your centre from Bijeljina to

15     Banja Luka?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And how about item number 192.  14 July, regarding surrender of

18     weapons.  The sender is the Presidency, and it's to all municipalities

19     around Gorazde.  It says:  "Delivered to the municipalities."

20             I take it this was a telegram that was sent out throughout MOD

21     centre in Pale?

22        A.   Yes.  This document was sent through the republican

23     communications and cryptographic protection centre, the centre where I

24     was the chief.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, maybe we should have a redaction for

Page 17654

 1     that last sentence.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  And if I could tender --

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, just for the record, there will be

 5     no need for redaction since we are in private session.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, I didn't realise we were still in private

 7     session.  That's good.

 8             I would like to tender 65 ter 1303.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01724, Your Honours.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Let me stay in private session then for the next question.

13             If you could look at the next tab, number 10 -- I'm sorry,

14     number 9; this is 65 ter 2914.

15             Witness, have you seen this document before?  It's dated the 18th

16     of June 1992 from the Minister of Defence, Bogdan Subotic?

17        A.   The minister of defence.

18        Q.   Yes.  And in it he says the communications centre at Pale can

19     send telegrams to the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina and to other

20     Serbian autonomous regions.  And his message is directed to the

21     ministries of the government.  Is that communications centre that is he

22     referring to the one of which you were the chief in June of 1992?

23        A.   The English version -- oh I see, on the other side.  I'm -- I

24     don't speak English.  This is not the minister of the interior; it's the

25     minister of defence who signed, Colonel Bogdan Subotic.

Page 17655

 1        Q.   There must've been a miscommunication.  But, yes.

 2     Colonel Subotic.

 3             And the communications centre in Pale that he refers to in this

 4     document, that's the centre where you were the chief in 1992; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to tendered 65 ter 2914.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01725, Your Honours.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Indeed, your centre could, and did, send telegrams for other

12     ministries besides the Ministry of Defence in 1992; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, you're right.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Next I want to ask you know a man named Nebojsa

15     Savic, who used to work for the SUP in Sarajevo, in Sarajevo CSB before

16     the war.  Did you know him?

17        A.   I didn't know him before the war, but Nebojsa Savic showed up in

18     Pale during the war, so I had the opportunity of meeting him.  I didn't

19     see him very often.  I might have seen him on a couple of occasions.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Are we in open session now, Your Honours?  I have

22     lost track.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We're in private.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  Could we go into open session.

25                           [Open session]

Page 17656

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             MR. HANNIS:

 4        Q.   Witness, can you tell us where the republic communications centre

 5     for the Republika Srpska was physically located in 1992?

 6        A.   The republic communications centre of Republika Srpska was at the

 7     fire station in Koran.

 8        Q.   Is --

 9        A.   In Pale.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And I would like you to take a look at the document

11     that's at tab 12 in your binder.  It's 65 ter 1938.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I realise I'm getting near the end of

13     my allotted time, if I haven't reached it, but given that the original

14     one and a half hours that the Court allowed for direct examination was at

15     a time when we thought the witness was going to be here live and now he

16     is on videolink, there is some inherent extra time built into doing a

17     videolink examination.  I'd like to ask if I can have another 20 minutes

18     or so to finish with this witness.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you very much.

21        Q.   You will see this document appears to be a statement of

22     Nebojsa Savic given to representatives of the State Security Service on

23     or about the 9th of September, 1992.  I will note for Your Honours that

24     in the English translation the date of 9/9/1992 is missing from the first

25     paragraph.  It is in the original of the B/C/S.

Page 17657

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I -- I -- I suspect that Mr. --

 2     Mr. Hannis is going to offer the statement as an exhibit, if I correctly

 3     understand.

 4             But, in any case, this is the statement of another person.  I

 5     don't see how can we admit it through this -- through this witness,

 6     despite the fact that he knows this person by name.  I don't -- I don't

 7     really see the connection, the nexus between these two.

 8             And if I correctly remember, we had a long conversation about

 9     this when the Office of the Prosecutor was actually opposing our -- our

10     line of questions where we wanted to -- to -- to -- to talk to the

11     witness about the -- the contents of the statements which he, himself,

12     took, and then the Office of the Prosecutor was -- was opposing that, as

13     not being a proper line.

14             Therefore, if -- if Mr. Hannis is going to introduce this as --

15     as -- or try to introduce this as an exhibit, I believe I gave my reasons

16     for the objection.

17             Thank you very much.

18             MR. HANNIS:  If I may, could I ask the witness to take his

19     headphones off.  I need to be precise about some things.  Yes, as I

20     recall, I personally raise as fuss when the Defence was trying to

21     introduce certain Official Notes that were taken at Omarska.  And I don't

22     think that any of them that they were trying to introduce were taken by

23     the witness who was actually testifying.  They were not signed by the

24     persons who gave the statements.  And they weren't statements.  They were

25     Official Notes which was part of the way, I guess, the Trial Chamber

Page 17658

 1     decided that you would be able to admit those in the face of my argument

 2     that they shouldn't come in, because, in effect, they were statements of

 3     absent witnesses.

 4             So I would be pretty red in the face if I got up now and tried to

 5     say, You, we should admit this statement of a witness.  But there are two

 6     essential differences between this statement of a witness and those

 7     Official Notes of detainees at Omarska.  There's no indication or

 8     suggestion or reason to believe that this witness, a Serb who is being

 9     debriefed after his release from captivity by Muslims, was beaten by any

10     MUP members of Serb ethnicity; and, in addition, this witness signed the

11     statement.

12             However, I'm not intending to introduce a statement, but I'm

13     planning to read certain portions of what this witness said to ask if

14     this witness can confirm some or part of what he says about what happened

15     at the communications centre in Pale and setting up a communications

16     network in the RS in 1992.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, not to mention that I have a

18     great problem when we are talking about -- what -- what I -- what I see

19     as a problem is that the Office of the Prosecutor keeps -- keeps dividing

20     the -- the victims from -- from -- from the different sides by their

21     ethnicity.  I just don't see why -- why is that relevant at all if the

22     victim is whoever, whichever ethnicity it belongings to, but apart from

23     that, I don't think that Mr. Hannis can use this statement to ask the

24     witness.  He can openly ask the witness about the certain event if he

25     wants to find out whether the witnesses knows about it.

Page 17659

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Which is precisely the question I was just about to

 2     ask Mr. Hannis.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, aren't you unnecessarily complicating

 5     the matter by using the statement which you said you aren't going seek to

 6     exhibit?  Just ask the witness -- wouldn't it be simpler to just ask the

 7     witness the relevant question?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, I would like to show that I have a

 9     good-faith basis for my questions, that there is a source document for

10     where I'm coming up with questions.  But you are right, I will just ask

11     some questions.

12             If we can have the witness put his headphones back on.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, were you aware that Mr. Nebojsa Savic moved

14     a certain short-wave radio station to -- from the Panorama Hotel to the

15     fire brigade where the republican communications centre was located in

16     1992?

17        A.   I don't know about that.

18        Q.   Were you aware that Mr. Savic met with --

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm sorry.

20             I believe the witness is looking at the document, so the document

21     should be taken away from him.

22             MR. HANNIS:  He said he didn't know.  But that's fine.  He can

23     set the document aside.

24        Q.   Witness, were you aware that Mr. Nebojsa Savic met with

25     Colonel Kotlica in the communications centre in 1992?

Page 17660

 1        A.   I was aware of that, yes.

 2        Q.   And did you know that the two of them were working on

 3     communications plans for connecting the Crisis Staff of the Serb Republic

 4     of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the autonomous regions?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  This is leading questions [sic], Your Honours.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Calls for a yes-or-no answer.  Do you know?

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Let's get on with it.

 8             MR. HANNIS:

 9        Q.   Do you know, sir?

10        A.   I didn't know about that.  I wasn't a member of any party.  I was

11     an officer in the Territorial Defence and in the monitoring an

12     information centre.  I wasn't a member of any party, so whether there

13     were contacts between the late Colonel Milorad Kotlica and Mr. Nebojsa --

14     what was his last name?  I don't know.  I know there were some contacts

15     but to what effect, I don't know.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let me show you one more document.  This is at

17     tab 14.  It's 65 ter 1305.

18             This is a document dated April 1993.  It's from the VRS.  It's an

19     analysis of the combat readiness and activities of the Army of the

20     Republika Srpska in 1992.

21             And I think I will skip to the second page that you have, which

22     should have a chart at the top of the page.  It's Figure 4.  Okay?

23             Did you find that?  The chart is entitled:

24             "The use of the PTT and military automatic telephone exchanges

25     outside the Army of Republika Srpska."

Page 17661

 1             Do you see that, sir?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we be given the indication which page I was

 3     supposed we supposed to [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             MR. HANNIS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  page 36 of the English

 5     in e-court and it's page 33 of the B/C/S.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have found it.

 8             MR. HANNIS:

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I have a couple of questions about some of the

10     entities listed in the chart.

11             Can you tell us about the Sokolac Warning and Reporting Centre?

12     Was that a subordinate to the republic centre in Pale?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, in the paragraph immediately under the chart I want

15     to read and ask you a question.  It says:

16             "In addition to PTT links of great importance within the system

17     of communications of the army were the communications of the very

18     developed warning and reporting centres in the territory of RS.  Most of

19     the 67 of such centres are linked with the military communications

20     system, and they have played a major role, to date, in warning and

21     reporting communications, in particular the Pale Warning and Reporting

22     Centre."

23             That is the communications centre in Pale that we have been

24     talking about this afternoon; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 17662

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And the last thing, sir, I'd like to show you tab 15.

 2     It's Exhibit P1319.  I wonder, if you have a pen that you could use for

 3     marking.  I'd like, if you could, just on that map of the Pale area mark

 4     four locations for me.  First of all, with the number 1 and a circle

 5     around it, the approximate location of the Pale Republican Communications

 6     Centre in 1992 in the fire station.  I know it's not the biggest map in

 7     the world, but if could you give us an approximate location.

 8        A.   This map is not very accurate, but the republic centre could be

 9     under the number 1.  Here.

10        Q.   Number 2, are you able to locate on there the approximate

11     location of Kalovita Brda?

12        A.   Kalovita Brda?  I can, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That's all I ask.

14             MR. HANNIS:  May that be given an exhibit number and admitted?

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, the marked version of P1319

17     shall be given Exhibit P01726, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, my colleague, Mr. Cvijetic, is

19     suggesting that maybe this would be an appropriate moment to take the

20     break and then we can start after the break immediately.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, although it is nine minutes early, I think it

22     would probably be more efficient to shift the time that way.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

Page 17663

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2                           --- On resuming at 5.38 p.m.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I, Your Honours?

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

 8        A.   I didn't hear you.  I apologise.  Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, you were affiliated with the

10     Secretariat of National Defence at Pale up to April 1992, right?

11        A.   Yes.  I worked at the Territorial Defence and then I joined the

12     secretariat, and I worked there at Pale until 1992.

13        Q.   You said that at the moment when the regional centre was

14     established in the fire brigade hall at Pale, that, for a while, you also

15     had communications with the centre in Sarajevo, right?

16        A.   I said that when the republican centre had been established, not

17     the regional centre at Pale.  The rest of us were part of the

18     organisational scheme and we were part of the organisation, together with

19     the city centre in Sarajevo.  I believe that that was the Federation

20     centre, or the centre affiliated with the Federation, while Sarajevo was

21     still one city; when it was not divided.

22        Q.   Let's just clarify one thing.  That communications centre, that

23     belonged to the city of Sarajevo with which you were linked, as you say,

24     that was under the control of the Muslim forces, right?

25        A.   When we were part of the line of command of the city centre, that

Page 17664

 1     was before the conflict started.  In 1992, in the month of April, we

 2     remained linked with the same city centre and we could still communicate

 3     with them freely.

 4        Q.   Very well.  The city centre with which you communicated in

 5     April 1992, that centre was under the control of the Muslim forces,

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown a

10     document, 1D04-3886.  Tab number 10 in our binder.

11        Q.   Sir, this is an order which was signed by the commander of the

12     Territorial Defence, or, rather, the staff of the Territorial Defence of

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colonel Hasanefendic.  Do you see the document?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Is that a document that, in April 1992, you received at your

16     republican centre at Pale?

17        A.   Yes, that's the document.

18        Q.   Tell me, I assume that you received that document pursuant to the

19     existence of your links and communications with the centre in Sarajevo,

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Sir, if I remember correctly, in the statements that you provided

23     to the OTP, your comment was that when you had seen this order issued by

24     Colonel Hasanefendic on the 29th of April, 1992, that you lost all hope

25     that the conflict would be restricted and that it would come to a

Page 17665

 1     peaceful resolution.

 2        A.   Yes.  I received that document at the centre by means of a

 3     teleprinter communication from the city staff or rather, from the

 4     republican centre which was on the Federation side.  They believed that

 5     they could send this type of documents and orders in order to put

 6     pressure on us who were part of their organisation until the beginning of

 7     combat activities.  I received a second document as well, however, that

 8     second document arrived from Banja Luka.  In other words, there were two

 9     identical documents.

10        Q.   Are you saying that the contents of both documents were

11     identical?  But we are still talking about one and the same document that

12     was signed by the commander of the Territorial Defence, Colonel Hasan

13     Efendic.  However, you received it from two different sources.  One came

14     from Banja Luka; and the other came from Sarajevo, right?

15        A.   Precisely so.

16        Q.   If I understand you correctly, you received this document, or,

17     rather, this order, and you understood that to be the beginning of very

18     serious armed conflicts in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19        A.   Yes.  When we received this document, I personally handed that

20     document to the president of the republic.  And the second copy went to

21     the then-commander, General Kukanjac.  Again, I delivered it personally

22     to him.

23             When I spoke to the gentlemen from the OTP, I asked them to show

24     me this document which was first went missing but then it was discovered

25     and I asked them to explain item number 4 to me, because there is a

Page 17666

 1     reference to combat activities in there.  And that's when I lost all hope

 2     that there would be a peaceful solution to the conflict that had just

 3     started.  Because their number one man, the commander of the BiH army,

 4     ordered foot soldiers to launch attacks across the entire territory of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina and to remove the civilian population which means that

 6     this was, de facto, a declaration of war.

 7        Q.   However, this document is something that you received and you

 8     took it to President Karadzic first and General Kukanjac, the commander

 9     of the 5th Military District of the JNA; did I understand you properly?

10        A.   Yes, you did.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections I would

12     like to tender this document into evidence.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D00397, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Tell me, sir, my learned friend Mr. Hannis asked you about the

17     communications systems.  That was earlier today.  Do you remember that?

18     He asked you about the existence of different communications systems.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You listed three different systems:  One belonged to the MUP and

21     it was the MUP communication system; the second one was the

22     communications system which you worked within, that was the Territorial

23     Defence or rather the Ministry of Defence communications system; and the

24     third system was the military communications system.  Am I right?

25        A.   There was an independent system which belonged to the Ministry of

Page 17667

 1     the Interior.  The second system was the system of the armed forces and

 2     the third system was the communications systems which belonged to the

 3     civilian authorities -- or, rather, it belonged to the Ministry of

 4     Defence but was used by the civilian authorities.  And the third system

 5     carried out tasks given to it by the civilian authorities under civilian

 6     power and that was the republican communications centre with all of its

 7     subordinated centres.

 8        Q.   Tell me, please, the fact is that all those three communications

 9     systems were independent of each other.  They worked independently,

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Sir, when you, within your system, which was the system of the

13     Ministry of Defence, when you wanted to establish any kind of

14     communication to send confidential telegrams, you were first supposed to

15     contact the opposing side, the receiving side, and provide them with

16     code -- the so-called code keys; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I'm going to show you a document.  It is 1D04-3893.  Tab 14 in

19     your binder.

20             This document was signed by the minister of defence, Colonel

21     Bogdan Subotic.  You can see it, can't you?

22        A.   Yes, I can.

23        Q.   Unfortunately, we do not have a date on the document.  However,

24     if I remember it correctly, in one of your statements provided to the OTP

25     or somewhere else, you confirmed that the first telegrams that you could

Page 17668

 1     send from the centre at Pale to your regional centres under seal, as it

 2     were, that it was only towards the end of June 1992.

 3        A.   Yes, thereabouts.  Sometime around the 20th of June.

 4        Q.   This document reflects what we have just said.  Before you

 5     started using a communication with sealed telegrams, you were supposed to

 6     establish prior communication with all the centres listed here.  You had

 7     to physically get in touch in them and convey the key codes to them.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And this order reflects that and goes along the same lines,

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And it says here that the document should be sent to the six

13     listed regions in the Territory of the Serbian Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina as it was called at the time?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you remember this document at all, sir?

17        A.   Yes.  I remember the document and I remember the code-name Vatra

18     or fire.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I'd

20     like to tender the document into evidence.

21             MR. HANNIS:  No objection, although we don't have a date, as he

22     indicated.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D00398, Your Honours.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17669

 1        Q.   Sir, I suppose that this document was drafted sometime in the

 2     month of June 1992, because, if, in late June 1992, you managed to start

 3     sending telegrams to at least some of the regional centres, that would

 4     mean that prior to that, those codes had been submitted to them in

 5     keeping with the document that is before you, right?

 6        A.   Yes, you're right.

 7        Q.   Tell me, please, the code keys that you delivered to the regional

 8     centres in the territory, you delivered those key -- code keys only to

 9     them and not anybody else.

10        A.   Yes.  That went along the line of command and control.

11        Q.   Your code keys were specific for your communications system and

12     they made sense and they could be used only in your communication system,

13     right?

14        A.   Right.

15        Q.   Likewise, the military communication system also had its own code

16     keys that they delivered to their regional units or communications centre

17     in order to be able to communicate?

18        A.   Yes, the military had its own system of communications and they

19     used those communication systems to communicate.  However, we knew that

20     we could also exchange our code books.  I don't know whether this was

21     done pursuant to this document or not.  Sometime at a later period, we

22     made use of that.  They didn't.  They never did.  But we did.

23        Q.   The fact is that every communication system had its own code keys

24     which differed from one system to the next.  And on the basis of their

25     own code key, they established communication with the regional parts of

Page 17670

 1     that communication system, right?

 2        A.   Yes, you're right.

 3        Q.   And, in that sense, if you didn't know, if you were not familiar

 4     with code keys, you would not be able to read the contents of a message,

 5     and that's how you made sure that the message did not fall into unwanted

 6     hands.  That was the whole purpose of the code keys, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, this gentleman, Kotlica, before the war, and

 9     before the hostilities started sometime in April 1992, he was an

10     assistant commander of the Territorial Defence of the Socialist

11     Federative Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and he was in charge of the

12     communications system there?

13        A.   Colonel Kotlica was the head of communications in the former

14     Secretariat of National Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15     which means that he was at the -- at a level of an assistant minister.

16     He was a military official within the administration for communications

17     and cryptographic protection.

18        Q.   Sir --

19        A.   He was a member of the Secretariat, or rather he was affiliated

20     with the republican Secretariat for National Defence.  Today, that would

21     be the Ministry of Defence.

22        Q.   And due to very well known circumstances, he was transferred to

23     Pale but he remained working at the Ministry of Defence of the Serbian

24     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   Yes, he was affiliated with the same centre where I was and he

Page 17671

 1     was the head of communications and cryptographic protection of the

 2     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   The fact is, sir, is it not that that some of the documents that

 4     you dispatched due to the situations which you explained for us which was

 5     very difficult when it comes to communications and maintaining the system

 6     of communications, you used -- used different ways and means to

 7     communicate with municipalities and regional centres and that depended on

 8     what was available to you at the time and how you could communicate with

 9     those centres at the time.

10        A.   Yes, you're right.

11        Q.   I will show you another document for illustration.  1D04-3910.

12     That's tab 12.

13             This document is dated 14 July 1992 and in the signature block we

14     see the name of the late Colonel Milorad Kotlica.  Basically, this is

15     forwarding a message of the president of the Presidency, Radovan

16     Karadzic.  Do you remember this document, sir?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   In this document, the president of the Presidency, Dr. Karadzic,

19     in mid-July 1992:

20             "Orders the presidents of the municipalities that in all villages

21     in which the Croatian Bosnian population surrender their weapons and show

22     no intention of fighting us, must enjoy the full protection of Serbian

23     state of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The municipality presidents must be

24     held accountable for that."

25             Do you remember that?

Page 17672

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  And that's how it was.

 2        Q.   And after that, the telegram was dispatched to the municipalities

 3     in various ways.  Over the phone, by teleprinter, by radio communication

 4     or radio relay communications.  Can you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   This illustrates the problem, that you did not -- or you could

 7     not communicate with every municipality in the same manner.  Depending on

 8     the time.

 9        A.   Yes, exactly.  The system of communications was disrupted and it

10     was very difficult to dispatch any telegram, especially during that

11     period that encompassed the first few months after the beginning of the

12     hostilities and then we tried to manage whichever we way could.  We used

13     teleprinters, radio communications and other times of communication.

14     But, we did use code tables and with great efforts, we were able to do

15     the work but some telegrams never made it to their intended recipients.

16        Q.   If I'm not mistaken you said you remember the document and you

17     also remember the signature of the late Milorad Kotlica, don't you?

18        A.   Yes, this is his signature.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there is no opposition I seek to

20     tender this document.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Well, I do have an objection.  This document has

22     something on the top called "The Hague against Justice Revisited,

23     document number 7" I think this is from some -- publication of a group

24     that was preparing a Defence for Radovan Karadzic.  There's no stamp on

25     the document, so I don't know where The Hague against Justice Revisited

Page 17673

 1     got this document.  That's the essence of my complaint.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  That apart, Mr. Hannis, hasn't the witness confirmed

 3     that he remembers?

 4             MR. HANNIS:  He says he remembers it is but I don't know from

 5     when or where he remembers it.  Does he remember it from seeing it in

 6     this book or does he remember it from seeing it in Pale in 1992?  We need

 7     some further elaboration on that.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Sir, let me ask you the following:  The document which we're

10     discussing now, dated 14 July 1992, do you remember seeing this document

11     in 1992; and, if so, where?

12        A.   The document dated 14 July 1992 was brought to the republican

13     centre of communications and cryptographic protection where I worked by a

14     courier.  And in 1997 or 1998, when I met the investigators of the ICTY,

15     when I and General Bogdan Subotic gave our first statements in the

16     investigative procedure to the investigators of the ICTY, I gave this

17     document to Mr. John Ralston, who then was an investigator, because they

18     demanded these documents.

19        Q.   I suppose that at the time you gave them a copy of this

20     document -- just a minute, let me finish.  Which did not have these

21     indications as -- that we see here, document number 7, and the

22     association, The Hague Against Justice Revisited and so on.

23        A.   It was just this same telegram, but without this title document

24     number 7.  I showed them the original document and they copied it and

25     took it to The Hague.

Page 17674

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  I hope that satisfies the requirement by

 2     Mr. Hannis.  If I can have the 1Dnumber, please.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit 1D00399, Your Honours.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Sir, you know that Mr. Kezunovic who was assistant minister of

 7     the interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was a friend

 8     and acquaintance of the late Colonel Kotlica, wasn't he?

 9        A.   Yes, I know that he was.

10        Q.   I believe that you stated today that Mr. Kezunovic on several

11     occasions came to your centre to consult and discuss the problems they,

12     just as you, faced with the functioning of the communications system,

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.  Especially with regard to the disrupted state of that

15     system.

16        Q.   Did you know that the communications system of the MUP - and I

17     mean the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina - initially

18     was established at Vrace.  Do you know that?

19        A.   Yes.  They had some of their communications system there in the

20     former school building.  I mean the MUP school at Vrace.

21        Q.   And after that, the communications centre of the CSB of Sarajevo

22     was partly moved to Lukavica.  Do you know that?  Or another building

23     anyway at Lukavica.

24        A.   Yes, something like that.  But I don't exactly remember where

25     they went.

Page 17675

 1        Q.   You know that Mr. Kezunovic worked on the establishment of the

 2     centre at Pale and that at some time in the summer of 1992, they moved

 3     the communications centre again but this time to Bijeljina, right?

 4        A.   As far as Mr. Kezunovic is concerned, I didn't speak to him about

 5     the establishment of any centres.  But the then-chief of that

 6     communication centre at Pale was my friend, the late Milenko Paunovic.

 7     And for that reason, we had good communication and we assisted each other

 8     in some segments where he was unable to do something, we helped him do

 9     so.  But not in all situations.

10             We had a disrupted communications system but he also complained

11     about serious problems that they had in communication.  And when they

12     came to Pale, they had problems with the facility at Kikinda and the

13     facility at Kalovita Brda where part of the communication system was,

14     because the infrastructure was limited and they could not establish

15     sufficient communications to cater for a stationary communication centre.

16     They had huge problems.  Only very late did they start to function under

17     more or less normal conditions because it was extremely difficult,

18     especially in their segment of the communications system.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, let us go through some documents shown to you by

20     Mr. Hannis.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

22     document number 5 -- or, rather, under tabs 5 and 6.  And I mean P467 and

23     P555.

24        Q.   Sir, do you remember that a short while ago you spoke with

25     Mr. Hannis about this document?  It's a document of the regional

Page 17676

 1     Secretariat of National Defence, dated 4 May 1992.  And it was signed by

 2     Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Sajic pursuant to the decision of the ministry

 3     that you saw earlier, the Ministry of National Defence, I mean.  He

 4     ordered general mobilisation.

 5             Do you remember the document?  You saw it some two hours ago.

 6        A.   Yes, I have it in front of me.

 7        Q.   And then Mr. Hannis showed you another document, tab 6 in his

 8     binder and that's document P555, bearing the same date, and it's a MUP

 9     document.  Remember that too?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   It was put to you then that these are two identical documents

12     with regard to their contents.  The MUP was dispatching it to their

13     regional stations using their communication system that.  That's what was

14     put to you, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Please take a look at the second page of this document, sir.

17             On page 1, we saw the decision with its five items.  And here,

18     there's a reasoning which also includes five items.  Can you see it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And the last item, item 5 says that this decision takes effect

21     forthwith.

22             Can you see it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And it's signed:  Regional Secretariat for National Defence,

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Sajic.

Page 17677

 1             Now, please take another look at document P476 [as interpreted],

 2     which is tab 5, and please focus on page 2 on the reasoning.  I'm

 3     referring to tab 5 in the Prosecution binder and the document number is

 4     P467.  We saw it a minute ago.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to page 2, please.

 7        Q.   Can you see, sir, that, here, the reasoning of this decision has

 8     only four items.  The fifth one is missing.

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   So, the documents are not identical after all, are they?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             Sir, I'll show you another document.  P1723.  It's tab 7 in the

14     Prosecution binder.

15             It's that log-book allegedly kept by one Rajka Stanisic.  It's

16     the log-book of the Republika Srpska Presidency and National Assembly.

17     Let us go to page 00845673.  Please ask the usher to turn to that page.

18        A.   Found.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I remember you said that you hadn't seen this

20     log-book before but you commented on it with Mr. Hannis, so I would like

21     to comment on it too.

22             021098 is the item number.  And it's the first entry on this

23     page, right?

24        A.   I can see it.

25        Q.   And it says, under narrative:  "Travel order for Radovan

Page 17678

 1     Colovic," I believe?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Then the fourth item from the top 01-1101, can you see that

 4     entry?

 5        A.   I can.

 6        Q.   It says:  "Approval for fuel."

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And underneath, 1101 again, it says:  "Fuel for the villa of

 9     the" -- either Presidency or president.  Can you see it?

10        A.   Yes, I can see it.

11        Q.   Sir, this document has nothing to do with the communications

12     log-book.  This is a register of the documents of the Presidency and the

13     National Assembly, right?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             Sir, thank you very much.  I have no further questions for you.

17        A.   Thank you as well.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you,

19     Your Honours.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  We don't have question for this witness,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Hannis.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             If we could look first at ... what's now been marked -- mm-hm.

Page 17679

 1     Sorry, Your Honours, I'm having trouble finding the reference.

 2             It's the document from Colonel Efendic, which is dated the 29th

 3     of April.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  1D397.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Judge.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

 7        Q.   You mentioned receiving this document, actually, two versions of

 8     this document; one from Sarajevo and one from Banja Luka.

 9             From whom, or from what entity in Banja Luka, did you receive a

10     copy of Efendic's order?  Do you recall?

11        A.   I received this document from Sarajevo, from the former republic

12     communications centre located in the building of the former Executive

13     Committee.

14        Q.   I understand that --

15        A.   Which now houses.

16        Q.   I'm sorry.  I understand that, but I thought you went on to say

17     that you also received a second copy from Banja Luka.

18        A.   We received the second one, yes.  We received the second one from

19     Banja Luka.  The second one which was identical to this one, we received

20     from Banja Luka.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

22        A.   They were.

23        Q.   My question is from whom or what in Banja Luka?  From the MUP?

24     From your regional centre?  From the army?  From whom?

25        A.   From the centre it says here "Banja Luka SUP."

Page 17680

 1             It bears their number, and they sent it to us because they had

 2     received this document -- the first to receive it was the municipal

 3     centre which received it from the BH government, the former republic

 4     centre in Sarajevo.  And it was sent to Sanski Most, to 45484.  And then

 5     this same telegram was sent from the teleprinter of the Banja Luka SUP,

 6     45254 is the number, and was sent to Pale.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So you had --

 8        A.   As you can see here.

 9        Q.   You had telegraphic connections with Banja Luka on the 29th of

10     April; is that correct?

11        A.   It was a teletyping communication.  It was open text.

12             If you will allow me, I have a book here written by

13     Colonel Hasanefendic.

14        Q.   I'm sorry --

15        A.   And it's called --

16        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm not interested in a book by Colonel Efendic.  If

17     that's something that the Defence wanted to ask you about, they could.

18             I just need to address a couple of particular things that they

19     asked you about.

20             At page 60, line 22 today, you were asked about -- I'm sorry.

21     Page 62, line 5, you were asked about the three communications systems

22     of -- for the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of the Interior, and the

23     army or the VRS system.  You said that they all worked independently.

24             Did your centre in the MOD have a direct communication link with

25     either the MUP communications centre or the VRS communications centre in

Page 17681

 1     1992?  Did you have direct communication links with either of them?

 2        A.   Later communication was established between the two centres,

 3     direct communication, manual communication, after certain technical

 4     conditions were put in place for such communications to be established.

 5     But not in the first few months.  There was a courier service.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And did you not have telephone communication with either

 7     of those systems in 1992?

 8        A.   We did have telephone communications, regular PTT lines.

 9        Q.   And you had fax communication as well, right?

10        A.   Yes, we did have all PTT communications.

11        Q.   At what point in time in 1992 did you begin to share

12     cryptographic documents with either the army or the MUP; do you recall?

13        A.   I already said that:  Around the 20th of June, 1992.  I can't

14     tell you the exact date but it was around the 20th of June.  June, that

15     is.

16        Q.   Yeah, I wanted to ask you a question about that.  That was tab 14

17     of the Defence binder.  Did that get an exhibit number?  Yes, it's 1D398.

18     Could we have a look at that for a second?

19             You see the -- the top of the page.  And it has a registry

20     number, 21-33.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know what that number refers to?  What's -- what's the 21

23     refer to?  Is that Ministry of Defence?

24        A.   No, it's not.  This is a log-book which was in the republic

25     centre --

Page 17682

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   -- and an operative wrote that number in hand.  It's a number

 3     from the log-book.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So does 21 refer to that communications centre?  And 33 is

 5     the 33rd document sent in 1992?

 6        A.   Exactly.

 7        Q.   And we don't know the date because it doesn't appear to be here

 8     on the original.

 9             Could we look at Exhibit P1725.

10             This is the one you saw earlier from Minister Subotic advising

11     the ministries about the capability of sending telegrams to the

12     autonomous regions, et cetera.

13             And you see the number on that one?  That is 21-72, and it's

14     dated the 18th of June.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry -- I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Could we have the witness take off his headphones.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, I wanted to suggest that.

18             I'm sorry.  I'm not aware if the witness have taken the

19     headphones off.  Okay.

20             Your Honours, I believe there is a difference between the

21     numbers.  The first one, this is -- this is -- the first one -- the first

22     document was strictly confidential document number 33.  21/33.  This is

23     obviously not a strictly confidential document so there might be --

24             MR. HANNIS:  That's not in evidence.  That has not been

25     established yet.

Page 17683

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  No.  But what I'm say something that you are -- I

 2     anticipate your question would be 72 and 33 and those are probably the

 3     two different log-books.  That is what I'm just suggesting.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  That's for a submission.  That's not an objection to

 5     my question.

 6             Could we -- I don't know what Your Honours ruling is.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Could we have the witness put his

 9     headphones back on.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have P1725 in front of you?  That 18

11     June document from Minister Subotic?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  And you see that was numbered 21-72.  Does that not

14     suggest to you that 21-33 must have been sent sometime far in advance of

15     the 18th of June?

16             JUDGE HALL:  Isn't that a submission rather than asking the

17     witness to -- you're asking the witness for a conclusion, Mr. Hannis.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Well, he seems to be a person in position to perhaps

19     be able to give us one.  If he doesn't know, he doesn't know.

20             JUDGE HALL:  I don't know why I'm instinctively troubled by the

21     form of that question.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  May I should just ask an open-ended question

23     and say:  Do you have any idea of how you might correlate a date for item

24     number 21-33 if the document sent on 20 June is 21-72?

25             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps if would be more helpful because the issue

Page 17684

 1     is the reconciliation of these two apparently conflicting documents so to

 2     the extent that the witness can assist the Chamber in this regard, I

 3     suppose the way the question is now phrased may be more helpful.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Witness, do you understand the question I'm asking you now or I

 6     do need to rephrase it, ask it again?

 7        A.   For your question, I can give you my opinion, an answer which

 8     might not correspond with reality.

 9             According to the rules of office work, this number, 21, might

10     have been assigned to the Ministry of Defence, and General Bogdan Subotic

11     at the time was minister of defence so it could that be this was the

12     classification number of the Ministry of Defence.  I don't know exactly.

13     But that would have been the logic of things.

14        Q.   I understand that.  But my understanding about the way that

15     documents are then numbered within the ministry are they're sequential,

16     so the first document sent in 1992 would be number 1, and so on, up

17     through 100 or 1.000.  72 would be sent at some date after 33.  Would you

18     agree?

19        A.   Yes.  Only I don't have the log-book here in which this document

20     was recorded.  This is probably a log-book that was kept at the Ministry

21     of Defence.

22        Q.   I understand ...

23        A.   And that's the -- that's the number of the Ministry of Defence.

24        Q.   I -- I share your pain in missing the log-book, sir.  Let me ask

25     you about the code systems.  You talked a little bit about the code keys.

Page 17685

 1     And at page 64, line 13 in your answer you said:

 2             "Yes, the military had its own system of communications.  And

 3     they used those communications systems to communicate.  However, we knew

 4     that we could also exchange our code books.  Sometime at a later period

 5     we made use of that."

 6             Do you mean you exchanged code books with the military in 1992?

 7     1992; and, if so, can you tell us when that was?

 8        A.   In 1992, we had certain documents which we used to work with the

 9     army.  We shared the same documents.  We had documents we used to send

10     certain orders and other documents to the army, and they had the same

11     document to decode what we sent and then decide what was being sent to

12     which end user.

13        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall when that was, approximately?

14        A.   The republic centre in Pale started sending information using

15     cryptographic data protection sometime around the 20th of June, and it

16     was one of the centres that played a great role in the communications

17     system of the VRS, because it communicated between the army and the

18     civilian authorities in the government and other structures as necessary.

19        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever exchange code books with the Ministry of

20     Interior in 1992?

21        A.   We didn't have a developed code system with the Ministry of

22     Interior, but based on certain documents, if necessary, we were able to

23     carry out exchanges.  But that was in the later period, that we were able

24     to communicate using the same documents.

25        Q.   And when you say "the later period," when do you mean,

Page 17686

 1     approximately?

 2        A.   After they had managed to establish their centres and when they

 3     were able to use -- to work with full capacity and to service their

 4     communications, which, as I said, was limited, because of technical

 5     difficulties.  They didn't have the capacity to communicate with

 6     everybody.  It was later on.

 7        Q.   Okay.  But having exchanged code documents with both the army and

 8     the MUP, did your centre then have the capability to send coded

 9     communications for either the army or the Ministry of Interior?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were able to do that.  However,

12     since the MUP was close to our centres, it was not necessary for us to

13     encode anything because it consumed too much time.  We sent the documents

14     via couriers because we had a courier system.  However, for example,

15     between the army and the MUP and not only the MUP but the government of

16     the RS and others, we were able to receive certain regular reports and

17     then send them to the addresses marked on them, including the minister of

18     the interior.

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

21        A.   Or the ministry of finance are or anybody.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Next, I wanted to ask you about tab 12.  This

23     is the document dated 14th of July signed by Colonel Kotlica, and I don't

24     know what exhibit number it got.  I think it's 1D399, yes.

25             This apparently is one particular document that you show -- that

Page 17687

 1     you chose to show the OTP investigators when you and Mr. Subotic spoke

 2     with them, when, back in 1997 or 1998?  Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  There was a meeting in the -- December of 1997 and the

 4     second one was on the 10th of January, I believe, of 1998.

 5        Q.   Do you recall why you chose this particular document to show to

 6     the OTP investigators?

 7        A.   I don't remember that now.  They asked to copy some documents, so

 8     these documents were provided to them.  I wasn't personally present when

 9     they made the copies.  They had their own people.  They came to the

10     former building of the government.

11        Q.   Do you have the document in front of you right now?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   It -- it seems to be in an unusual format.  It -- it doesn't have

14     any -- any number on it, so do you have any explanation for that?

15     There's no registry number either from the Presidency's registry or from

16     the com centre.  Is that unusual?

17        A.   I remember this document, and I remember that there was some

18     problems regarding certain groups which came into conflict with the

19     then-Muslim and now-Bosniak population in certain areas and for that

20     reason, as communication was very difficult at the time, a telegram

21     arrived to be sent to all these municipalities to protect all the

22     population who have expressed their loyalty and surrendered their

23     weapons.  It related to people who had no intention to oppose the Army of

24     the VRS and these people were to be protected.  They were to enjoy the

25     full protection in the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

Page 17688

 1     Herzegovina.  I remember that.  That's how it was.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   This telegram, because communications were difficult, this

 4     telegram was sent by telephones, teletype -- via teletyping in any way

 5     that was possible.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 7        A.   It was very difficult for us to carry out this task, but in the

 8     end, we managed to send it to all the addressees.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But in your documents that you gave the OTP, which is now

10     Exhibit P1724.  Item number 192 is dated the 14th of July.  It's about

11     the surrender of weapons from the Presidency to all municipalities around

12     Gorazde.

13             So that sounds like that's the same document that you have in

14     front of you right now.  Would you agree?

15        A.   I apologise.  What was the number again?

16        Q.   Well, if you want to see where it is it in your log-book, that's

17     Exhibit P1724, which was tab 8 today.  And it's item number 192.

18        A.   I can see it now, yes.

19             192, yes.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

21        A.   That's the document.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... from the log-book of

23     telegrams to be transmitted over the radio.  Would you agree that this

24     log entry appears to be referring to this document dated the 14th of

25     July?

Page 17689

 1        A.   Yes.  Here, under 192.  This log-book, since the original

 2     log-books were missing, this log-book comprises quite a few pages of A4

 3     papers and all the entries were made by hand.  A log-book of that kind

 4     existed at the centre, and it is true that that particular thing was

 5     recorded under this number.

 6        Q.   My question is:  Do you have any idea why there is no document

 7     number on this, either number 192 from your communications log-book, or a

 8     number from the RS Presidency and Assembly registry of documents?  Is

 9     that normal?

10        A.   I can't give you any comment as to why there's no number, whether

11     it was omitted or what, I'm sure that this telegram was dispatched to all

12     the addressees and I'm sure that you will be able to find this telegram

13     in the files of some of the municipalities, in their archives.  I'm sure

14     that it was sent.  We did not have any archives.  We were just the

15     department that received telegrams and dispatched telegrams to the end

16     users.

17        Q.   Okay.  I'm almost done with this document.

18             Can you explain for us who this document is intended to be for?

19     The original message is from President Karadzic to the municipalities

20     about surrendering weapons.  But on the bottom of it it appears that

21     Colonel Kotlica has added the information about delivering documents.

22     Where is this document supposed to be registered in your communications

23     centre or at the Presidency or somewhere else?  It seems an odd

24     combination that Colonel Kotlica has put this information on and typed

25     his name, but there's no indication that he is mailing it back to the

Page 17690

 1     president to let him know or sending it to the file.

 2             Can you help us with that?

 3        A.   Under 192, the handwritten entry, this is not the handwriting of

 4     the late Milorad Kotlica.  This is the handwriting of one of the

 5     operatives who was employed at the radio department.  The -- those

 6     telegrams, according to the logic of the matter, should have been

 7     registered with the presidents of the municipalities.  Because the

 8     presidents of the municipalities were instructed to protect the Croatian

 9     and Muslim populations which had been involved in the activities

10     described in the dispatch.  Those people who had handed over the weapons.

11     They did not intend to fight the army and therefore should enjoy the full

12     protection of the bodies of power in -- in the -- in the area.  That's

13     what I meant when I said that this should be registered with the heads of

14     municipalities.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you there.

16     Maybe you didn't misunderstand -- maybe you misunderstood earlier.

17             Page 67, Mr. Zecevic was asking you at line 9:  "Do you remember

18     the document and you also remember the signature of the late Milorad

19     Kotlica, don't you?"

20             And you said:  "Yes, this is his signature."

21             Didn't you just say now that that signature is someone else's?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mr. Hannis, if I may be of assistance.  I believe

23     the witness was commenting the log-book entry, 192, when -- when he was

24     referring to the handwriting.  Not the document that you are talking

25     about.

Page 17691

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

 2        Q.   Is that correct, sir?  Did I misunderstood you?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The signature in -- on -- in the document

 4     is the Colonel's document whereas the log-book was signed by the

 5     operative who dispatched the telegram.  It may be for that reason that

 6     the number was omitted.

 7             So the document bears the Colonel's name, whereas the log-book

 8     bears the signature of an operative.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  My apology.

10             Let me ask you about -- at page 69, line -- well, line 25.  You

11     mentioned that you had a disrupted communication.  And then you were

12     talking about the MUP system.  "When they came to Pale they had problems

13     with the facility at Kikinda and the facility at Kalovita Brda.  They had

14     huge problems.  Only very late did they start to function under more or

15     less normal conditions."

16             Because of those difficulties, did they not ask you sometimes to

17     assist them in delivering documents; and did you do that for the MUP in

18     1992?

19        A.   Yes, but not often.  We always lended a helping hand.  Not only

20     to them, but also to the municipality, and to anybody else who wanted our

21     assistance.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And did they return the favour on occasions when they

23     were able to help you?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 17692

 1        A.   For example, when our system of communications was down.

 2        Q.   And, likewise, with the army.  Did the army help you and the MUP

 3     when it could, if you know?

 4        A.   Yes, I'm sure that they did.  There was a level of cooperation

 5     between all of us.  We had to help each other, in order to be able to

 6     protect the population.  They helped us when we needed to dispatch

 7     certain documents to certain stations.  And the MUP used the police

 8     stations in the municipalities which could then forward documents that we

 9     had not been able to forward to.  For example, presidents of

10     municipalities, or socio-political organisations.  This was all with a

11     view to creating the most resistant and resilient system of

12     communications because our systems of communications were targeted, and

13     they were down for one reason or the other.

14        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  I don't have any further questions for

15     you.  I appreciate your coming in.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well, sir.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, we thank you for your assistance to the

19     Tribunal.  Your testimony has been completed within the compass of

20     today's sitting, so you are now released.

21             We thank you, sir.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I would like to

23     thank you for your fairness.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, we are scheduled to resume at 2.15

Page 17693

 1     tomorrow.  Would your witness be ready?  The witness that you indicated

 2     who is coming in, was it this evening?

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I wasn't clear on when he was coming in

 4     but I had understood from Ms. Korner that the witness wouldn't not [sic]

 5     be ready to start before Wednesday.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  I do recall this issue of Wednesday in our earlier

 7     discussions today.  So my -- what I'm really asking is when we -- when we

 8     reconvene tomorrow at 2.15 we will be reconvening for the purpose of ...

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.  Just to see each other once again.

10             I understand that Ms. Korner maybe had a couple of procedural

11     matters to raise but I don't know if you want to convene for that

12     purpose.  I hesitate to say let's not meet tomorrow for fear that there

13     is something that she urgently wants to raise.  I don't know what to

14     suggest.  I'm trying to contact her at the moment, but I'm not able to

15     have the information from her.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, bearing in mind the -- among other

18     things, the transportation of the accused from UNDU to the Tribunal,

19     the... could we -- we be advised before 11.00 tomorrow as to whether it

20     is necessary to meet at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.  And in the absence of

21     such communication, I assume we will -- and I state parenthetically that

22     I suppose everyone would have seen the adjusted schedule that we were due

23     to sit on Wednesday and Thursday in the morning -- that we will take the

24     adjournment to 9.00 Wednesday morning subject to any communication that

25     the Office of the Prosecutor has, as to a need to sit tomorrow afternoon,

Page 17694

 1     beginning at 2.15.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I did have a communication that

 3     indicated one matter Ms. Korner wanted to be heard on, it concerns a

 4     document just disclosed in connection with the next witness to be called.

 5     I think she would like to be heard on before he starts on Wednesday and

 6     preferably would like to do it tomorrow.  But I don't know if it is

 7     necessary for the accused to be transported, if that's the only

 8     discussion we're going to have.  Certainly they're entitled to be.  But

 9     it might be the kind of thing they're willing or wanting to wait; I don't

10     know.  But we'll certainly advise you before 11.00 tomorrow.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we might as well communicate

12     directly with the Office of the Prosecutor concerning that document and

13     then inform Your Honours on Wednesday morning and -- and whatever

14     submissions needs to be made at that point.

15             The -- I don't see any point that we meet for a document which we

16     might communicate otherwise.

17             JUDGE HALL:  I'm strongly inclined to agree with you Mr. Zecevic.

18     It seems to me an enormous waste of resources to sit tomorrow just to

19     deal with the admission of a document.

20             So unless I'm persuaded otherwise -- sorry.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we will take the adjournment to Wednesday

23     morning.

24             The -- there is an application in respect of Witness 244 who is

25     scheduled to testify, I believe, next week.  So the -- it would be of

Page 17695

 1     assistance if we could have expedited responses from the Defence and

 2     taking advantage of tomorrow, we would hear from you, no doubt, on

 3     Wednesday morning.  Thank you.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  We will, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

 7                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.