1 Wednesday, 24 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.28 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Good morning to everyone.
12 Before I take the appearances, the Chamber apologises for any
13 inconvenience caused to the parties and the accused for the delayed
15 May we have the appearances, please.
16 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
17 Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith on behalf of the Prosecution.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
19 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Merinda Stewart appearing
20 for Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you very much.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
22 Igor Pantelic, and 0Aleksandar Aleksic for Zupljanin Defence.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 Yes, Ms. Korner.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before the next witness comes, I have a
1 number of administrative matters which I would like to raise.
2 Can I say that it appears from what I've just been told by the
3 Defence that there's unlikely to be any cross-examination of the next
4 witness by the Stanisic team and that Mr. Krgovic's estimate of
5 three-hours is well over what he actually expects to take. So it's
6 likely that this witness, given that Your Honours have given me one hour,
7 is going to finish well short of 2.00.
8 But, Your Honour, that led leads me on to various matters.
9 Your Honours, we have now worked out with the remaining witnesses
10 which Your Honours said we should call before the 17th -- before the --
11 the break on the 17th of December, that, in fact, with the witnesses we
12 can call, we will be finishing the week of the -- the end of the week of
13 the 3rd of December, I -- no 5th of -- no. Just let me get that right --
14 6th. Your Honours, we will not be going beyond that week, so there will
15 be a full week free.
16 One of the reasons is there is a particular witness, ST-228, who
17 would have come under the -- Your Honours' ruling that we should call all
18 witnesses but Ewan Brown and if Your Honours grant leave, the other
19 witnesses that we've applied to add, before the break. He is also
20 testifying in the Karadzic case. Your Honours, this is a witness who's
21 testified a great many times; he's an adjudicated fact witness; he's not
22 in the best of health; and, therefore, we would wish to combine him so
23 that he only has to come to the Tribunal once with the Karadzic case, so
24 that he testifies first in Karadzic. There would then have to be a day's
25 break at least while his transcript was considered by the Defence. But
1 for various reasons, as Your Honours know, the Karadzic case has not been
2 sitting and is not going to re-sit until, I think, mid-December,
3 sometime. It can only be in January. So we'd ask Your Honours' leave to
4 carry that one witness, who's an adjudicated fact witness, 228, into
5 January. So that he can be combined with the Karadzic case.
6 Your Honours, that, therefore, means there will be a full week
7 where there'll be no evidence, it's possible, to call. At the moment
8 Your Honours order is that we should restart with the evidence on the
9 10th of January with Mr. Brown or the other two witnesses, if you give
11 I understand that the Defence application - and I think, perhaps,
12 they should make it today because we need to know where we're going - is
13 that we should not sit at all that week. So perhaps if I could sit down
14 for a moment - there are other matters - to see if that is actually the
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, that is precisely the application.
17 And I believe -- I think two weeks ago or three weeks ago we informed
18 Ms. Featherstone that that is going to be our -- our request, the kind
19 request to the Trial Chamber. Because if you remember, we have -- due to
20 the Serbian calendar, there is -- there is a difference of our -- our
21 Christmas and our new year. And last year it was kindly acknowledged by
22 this Trial Chamber and in most of the cases it has been acknowledged that
23 the 13th and the 14th are the days off due to religious reasons, or
24 actually a new -- a Serbian new year.
25 Now, the -- having said that, it -- it -- it appears that -- that
1 if we start on the -- on the 10th, then we will have two days and then --
2 or three days and then a break for -- for two days. And if -- I don't --
3 I don't think that -- that it -- it makes much sense that -- that we do
4 it like that. Just for the -- for the purposes of -- of resources,
5 witnesses staying here for a longer period of time, and the like.
6 So our -- our suggestion is that we start on the -- the week of
7 the 17th, and it is our estimation at the moment that we will finish all
8 the remaining witnesses in that week.
9 That is ... that is our position.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MS. KORNER: May I say something for -- I see Your Honours
12 considering the matter.
13 First of all, I mean, this application has been made in other
14 cases and not been granted. But can I put it this way: The -- the
15 Prosecution will not object -- we can move the witnesses, provided we
16 know; but provided, that time counts towards preparation for the Defence
17 case. And indeed the week off that we're going to have at the end of --
18 in December. That's our -- we're very anxious that this case should
20 And one of the suggestions I'm going make is that we should have
21 a 65 ter Conference before we all break for Christmas to see exactly
22 where we're going and how long is going to be allotted for the gap
23 between the Prosecution and Defence case.
24 If Your Honours, say, accede to this request made by the Defence,
25 as I say, we won't object, but we say that the time should count towards
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE HALL: Of course, the Chamber will -- will not make a
4 decision on this immediately. But could we have the Defence's response
5 to what Ms. Korner has just indicated, that the apparent week in
6 December and the applied-for week in January would count towards the
7 preparation time the Defence has.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we strongly oppose that.
9 At the outset of -- at the very beginning of this trial, at
10 the -- at the Status Conference, and on other Status Conferences, I
11 clearly stated that the Defence requests two months for the preparation
12 of the Defence case undisturbed.
13 Your Honours, we cannot -- we -- we are forced to -- to move the
14 Witness Ewan Brown because we can't prepare for him due to amount of
15 material that has been disclosed to us recently or in the meantime. Now,
16 that -- that is the reason why Mr. Brown, as -- as an expert witness, is
17 coming in January. And that was acknowledged by the Trial Chamber.
18 Your Honours, we have a huge problem with the exhumations. I
19 would -- I would need every minute of it -- of the time to deal with
20 these issues. I cannot -- and -- and I -- I really cannot accept that
21 we -- that we start the preparation of the Defence case. And -- and,
22 Your Honours, we lack the time to prepare for -- for these two very
23 big -- big issues. The exhumations I will explain -- I will explain when
24 I'm ready for the submissions, probably next week, beginning of next
25 week; and I will explain what is the situation there. And the situation
1 is a very complicated one from the point of Defence.
2 Therefore, we -- we also understand, Your Honours, that at the
3 end of the Prosecutor's case there is going to be a bar table motion.
4 Now, we cannot really start preparing the -- the Defence case seriously
5 without the -- without the bar table motion and then we -- that we see
6 what -- what -- what exhibits are admitted in the -- during the
7 Prosecutor's case.
8 I mean, it doesn't say -- it doesn't mean, of course, that we are
9 not preparing for the Defence case. We are doing that since -- since
10 April this year. But the -- the -- the real reparation can only start
11 the moment when the Prosecutor's case finish.
12 I'm sorry, I wasn't prepared to make the submission because it
13 wasn't suggested in the -- in the list that Ms. Korner was -- was
14 providing to us last night that this is going to be an issue. She never
15 said that -- that they are going to ask that the time be counted in the
16 preparation of Defence case.
17 JUDGE HALL: Well, in terms of the decision which the Chamber has
18 to make, we now know you generally oppose that part of what the -- it
19 isn't really an application, but the Prosecution's view differs from
20 yours. But there is something that you have added which intrigues me,
21 Mr. Zecevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
23 JUGE HALL: Intrigue is probably the wrong word; confuses me is
24 probably more accurate. The -- this matter of exhumations. I know that
25 the substantial element of it is with the Trial Chamber and we are in
1 fact working on it, but I had been under the impression from when this
2 matter was last raised that there was a subsidiary aspect in respect of
3 which the -- both sides were trying to reach some accommodation. But did
4 I hear you to say that there are going to be further submissions on -- do
5 I gather from that, that these discussions have proved fruitless and
6 therefore there's going to be a second part to this exhumations business
7 which the Chamber is going to have to consider?
8 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, Your Honours.
9 The first -- the first question was a legal question: Whether or
10 not the Prosecutor is allowed to add additional 1.700 victims to the --
11 to the list which do not appear in the schedules of the indictment. That
12 is the -- the question which is now in -- before the Trial Chamber.
13 The second part is that at that point when -- or actually at the
14 point where we were first disclosed the database, the exhumations
15 database, the Defence requested all the underlying documents for -- for
16 the victims in the schedules to the indictment.
17 Now, we have been disclosed another set of materials, and we've
18 been discussing the -- the contents of this disclosure. Now,
19 unfortunately, it appears that the -- that this amount of material which
20 was disclosed to us on our request does not contain any of the
21 information that we are -- that we need or that we hoped we will get from
22 the -- from the Office of the Prosecutor. Therefore -- and it appears
23 also that the Office of the Prosecutor does not have the documents which
24 we asked for. That is our understanding at the moment.
25 So -- so that is -- that is going to -- that creates a problem,
1 Your Honours. And -- and that is going to be my submission. I have
2 to -- to make a submission to the Trial Chamber and explain in detail
3 what is the -- what the Defence see as potentially a really big problem.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, so we have been alerted.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, can I say that -- there was a
7 meeting between Ms. Pidwell and Mr. Zecevic and Ms. Savic last Friday
8 where it was all carefully explained. We do not understand what the
9 problem is but no doubt we will hear when Mr. Zecevic makes his
11 But, Your Honour, can I go back to what he said. First, the
12 bar table motion will be filed next Monday at the latest, we hope. It's
13 being worked on at the moment, so it won't be at the end of the case.
14 The second thing is this: All Defence teams have a large number
15 of lawyers working on them. In Mr. Zecevic's case, there are three in
16 court at the moment, a legal assistant outside court, and whoever else.
17 The same applies, as can you see, from the Zupljanin case. And the idea
18 is that you divide the work so that if one person is in court or dealing
19 with the witnesses, others are dealing with other -- other lawyers are
20 dealing with other matters relating to the case.
21 Mr. Zecevic said he didn't -- he wasn't aware I was going to
22 raise it. Item number 2 states whether you are asking for the week of
23 the 10th of January to be vacated. Now, Your Honours, I cannot see how
24 Mr. Zecevic can say he's been taken by surprise. All we're saying is
25 that the week that's going to be free in December and the week that's
1 going to be in January should be used by at least one of the lawyers
2 towards preparation of the Defence case. This case, as Your Honours
3 know, for various reasons has lasted a lot longer than anybody
4 anticipated, and we really should be getting a move on. And those are
5 the submissions we make on that.
6 So, Your Honours, obviously we would need to know, really, just
7 whether you're going to - regardless of whether you agree with our
8 submission that it should be added to the Defence time - whether you are
9 going to vacate the 10th of January so that we can make arrangements,
10 particularly with Mr. Brown, who has the problems that he's a
11 self-employed contractor these days.
12 Your Honours, then, I've dealt with the witness called in
13 January --
14 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, I nodded, but I suppose I should say for the
15 sake of the record: Of course.
16 Thank you. Please continue.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I next move to witnesses relating
18 to the Mladic notebooks.
19 Your Honours have had submissions on whether or not witnesses
20 should need to be called at all. The Defence request is that they are
21 both called under the provisions of 92 ter. We all agree, it seems, that
22 there's no point in the two witnesses repeating the evidence they've
23 already given.
24 I should tell Your Honours that one of the matters that
25 Your Honours raised, namely, that public evidence had been given about
1 the diaries, yesterday in the Stanisic/Simatovic case the evidence was
2 made public. So that is now a fact.
3 So, Your Honours, the reason we're asking is because if you want
4 us to call particularly one of the witness before Christmas, which we can
5 do, but we need to know that, please, this week, because it means someone
6 will have to go and see the witness next week for him to be called in the
7 last -- last week of -- that we've got witnesses. So if -- we'd be very
8 grateful if we could have the ruling - oral ruling would be fine - this
10 Your Honour, the next matter is how the 92 bis witnesses are to
11 be dealt with that Your Honours have agreed.
12 In most cases we've noticed that a summary is read into the
13 record of their evidence. Would Your Honours be happy with that as a --
14 as a method of dealing with them? Perhaps you would like to consider
15 that matter at some stage, given that we will have time.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I should say, otherwise the general
18 public has no idea what all these witnesses say, there's no public record
19 if they just go in like that. There's got to be some kind of
20 acknowledgment of what these witnesses are dealing with.
21 Your Honours, as I said, we suggest that the 65 ter Conference,
22 before we break for Christmas, may be a useful thing to hold as to -- as
23 to what's going to happen. And particularly in the light of
24 Mr. Zecevic's protestations about the time needed.
25 And, finally, Your Honours, Witness 223, again, an adjudicated
1 fact witness who is due to testify next week, when contacted by VWS said
2 that he was unwell and is -- was going to provide a medical certificate.
3 A videolink has already been organised for ST - let me just get the
4 number - 244 next week. 223 actually lives in the same general area.
5 And so it may be just simpler if we have both of them by videolink. And
6 I -- I don't believe the Defence have ever objected to evidence by
7 videolink. And so if that's possible, perhaps Your Honours could let us
8 know then we can get in touch to make the arrangements. The videolink
9 has been arranged for next week for 223.
10 JUDGE HALL: We have been alerted to that, and we will revert to
11 you as soon as possible, Ms. Korner.
12 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 Your Honours, that's finally -- can I ask just to go into private
14 session, please, to deal with one matter which relates to the next
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
25 JUDGE HALL: And we don't know whether the Defence was alerted to
1 this matter, the videolink in respect of the witness - was it 233? But
2 if -- 223. But if you are in a position to have considered it, it would
3 be useful for us to hear from you now; if not, in the course of today.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, we were not aware -- we just got the
5 information about it, so perhaps at the first break, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ...
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
8 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... so we go back into --
9 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... Your Honours, that's quite
10 right. This is something that just arose this morning, and so I didn't
11 have a chance to notify the Defence about that.
12 Could we go into private session now.
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
14 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 MS. KORNER: Yes, we'll I -- we can say this in open session,
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, finally, you will have seen on our
4 list that there was an extra document added which wasn't part of the
5 65 ter package which was one which was late disclosed to the Defence
6 because we had to get the permission of the provider. It was --
7 actually, it arose in the Brdjanin case but with a different witness.
8 However, Your Honour, I'm not making any application to add that document
9 to our list or try and produce it as an exhibit in the light of the --
10 the fact, I understand it, the witness who's now coming hasn't seen the
11 document before.
12 So -- until I saw him yesterday, I wasn't aware of that. So I'm
13 not making the application, although it's on our list.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unrelated to this, we
15 expressed our views to Ms. Korner yesterday in terms that we oppose the
16 use of this documents because they have not demonstrated any justifiable
17 reasons for late disclosure and adding it to 65 ter list. This document
18 was admitted into the Brdjanin evidence through another
19 document [as interpreted], so it was well known that this document
21 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] [Previous translation
22 continues] ...
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
24 JUDGE HALL: So could we have the witness escorted to the stand,
1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... are we going for the
2 normal break at 10.25, or whatever it is?
3 JUDGE HALL: Well, bearing in mind that the accused would have
4 been here, I intend to take the -- to stick to the usual times.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness. I think I speak, or
8 at least I try to speak, a language you understand?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your testimony. You
12 are about to read the solemn declaration by which witnesses commit
13 themselves to tell the truth. I need to point out that the solemn
14 declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the penalty of
15 perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this
17 Now, then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the
18 solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
20 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: CHARLES GEORGE ALEXANDER McLEOD
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may be seated.
23 And, sir, could we begin by asking you to state your full name
24 and your date and place of birth.
25 THE WITNESS: Certainly. I'm Charles George Alexander McLeod. I
1 was born on the 27th of March, 1963, in London.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what is your profession today?
3 THE WITNESS: I build schools.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what was your occupation in 1992?
5 THE WITNESS: I was working for the ECMM.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. I understood that this is far from being
7 your first appearance before this Tribunal, so I don't have to explain
8 you the proceedings in court.
9 The only thing I could -- the only information I could provide
10 you with is that the Prosecutor has asked for one hour. You are a
11 so-called 92 ter witness that -- which means that you -- the transcript
12 of your previous testimony will be taken into account in this -- in this
13 case instead of an extensive examination-in-chief. The Stanisic Defence
14 ask for 30 minutes for cross-examination, and the Zupljanin Defence
15 for -- three hours. So that's all.
16 And I give the floor to Ms. Korner.
17 MS. KORNER: On that last note, I don't believe those are now the
18 time estimates. Perhaps we could establish that.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: One hour for you, Ms. Korner?
20 MS. KORNER: Yes, one hour for me, but --
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thirty minutes for Stanisic. And not more than
22 three hours for --
23 MS. KORNER: Yes, I don't believe -- yes, I don't think that's
24 right anymore. I think I raised that with Your Honours. I don't think
25 the Stanisic Defence intend to cross-examine, as I understand it.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Not at all, Mr. Zecevic?
2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Mr. Krgovic will go first, and we may not, in
3 fact, have any questions.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic go first. Okay. Thank you.
5 And Mr. Krgovic, what are you --
6 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, I don't think that I would take three
7 hours. Most probably maybe 40, 50 minutes.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you very much.
9 Examination by Ms. Korner:
10 Q. Yes. Mr. McLeod, first of all, can I just deal a little bit more
11 with your background.
12 I think that in -- prior to July of -- or June of 1992 you were
13 in the British Army.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And had you been in the British Army for some 12 years by then?
16 A. I had been in for ten years.
17 Q. Ten. And had you achieved the rank of captain?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you then, in July of 1992, did you join, as it was then,
20 the European Community Monitoring Mission, ECMM?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you go to Bosnia in July/August of 1992?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You testified in the Brdjanin case on the 21st and
25 24th of June, 2002; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And, in fact, during the course of the weekend, you were asked to
3 correct a type-written version of the notes that you had made.
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Have you had a chance to review the testimony in the Brdjanin
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 Q. And if asked the same questions, would your answers be the same?
9 A. They would.
10 Q. Now just so that we can briefly run through the events that you
11 described in the Brdjanin case, I think at the end of August, you took
12 part in meetings in the Autonomous Region of Krajina area with Serb
13 officials in order to make arrangements for an inspection that was to be
14 undertaken by a committee that had been set up by, as it was then, the
15 CSCE, now OSCE, as a result of the London Conference.
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Those meetings took place in Banja Luka and later in Gradiska and
19 A. Well, the initial meetings were in Banja Luka. By the time we
20 had the mission with us, then we went to Gradiska and to Prijedor.
21 Q. Right. And I think had you dealings, inter alia, with
22 Predrag Radic, as you understood it, the mayor of Banja Luka?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. One meeting attended by Stojan Zupljanin. And we'll look at the
25 notes of that in a moment.
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And also in Prijedor Milomir Stakic, also as you understood it,
3 the mayor of Prijedor?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Did you accompany the CSCE mission which had been -- which was
6 being led by Sir John Thomson when it visited Manjaca, Trnopolje, and the
7 Prijedor area?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Later on, were you present in November 1992 when Manjaca camp was
11 A. I was.
12 Q. I think it's right that you kept your own notes about the
13 meetings and the visits, and based on those notes you wrote reports for
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And, additionally, you were able to provide the Trial Chamber
17 with photographs that you personally took yourself.
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. All right. And at the end of those notes, which we went through
20 in the Brdjanin case, you, in fact, recorded your own feelings about what
21 you had seen during this inspection, and also in a letter to your father.
22 A. That's correct.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just for Your Honours' note, the
24 feelings he recorded are at the end of the typed version of his notes,
25 which is the document at tab 4, which has been given the provisional
1 number of 3338B, and it's page 57 of those notes.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Please make a pause between question and answer
3 for the interpretation.
4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... Oh, yes, I'm sorry.
5 Q. Right. Can I ask you then, please, to look just briefly at a
6 couple of your reports; in particular the one dealing -- where you met
7 Stojan Zupljanin.
8 MS. KORNER: That has been given the number -- in e-court it's
9 3606. It's tab 9 of the documents, the 92 ter documents.
10 Q. It's going to come up on the screen in front of you.
11 In this version, as you can see, the name of the interpreter has
12 been redacted.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, as this is going to be under seal, it
14 better not go out to the public.
15 Q. In fact, if we look at it, the interpreter was one that had been
16 brought along by Mr. Radic; is that right, Mr. McLeod?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Now, this was headed -- it's -- the date of your report was the
19 23rd of August, but it dealt with a meeting on the 20th of August,
20 Banja Luka recce. And we see in the first paragraph that the team had a
21 meeting with Mr. Radic, the mayor; Mr. Zupljanin, the Banja Luka chief of
22 police; and Colonel Vukelic, a representative of the 1st Krajina Corps.
23 Mr. -- perhaps can we with have a look, page 2 in English.
24 That's a great copy.
25 MS. KORNER: You've got -- apparently if you do something -- if
1 you press the button to the right hand -- no, not ring-tail. At the top.
2 That's it. Thank you.
3 And I think it's probably page 2 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. Mr. Radic says in -- speaks and, in the middle of the page, says:
5 "Here we have opened all our PW camps."
6 Does -- "PW," I take it, stands for prisoner of war?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. "Until your head of mission can give us reports on our prisoner
9 of war reports of people in the Green Berets and Ustasha camps, we will
10 not allow you total freedom here."
11 Was this a theme, Mr. McLeod, that ran through it, that --
12 that -- the insistence that there had to be investigation of what the
13 other side was doing?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. And then can we go, please, because it was a long
16 meeting, obviously, and a long report, to page 6 in the English.
17 MS. KORNER: And I'm afraid I haven't the faintest idea where it
18 appears in the translation, where Mr. Zupljanin speaks.
19 Maybe the Defence can assist.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: It's page 6 as well.
21 MS. KORNER: Page 6, thank you.
22 Q. And I'm not going to read through it again, Mr. McLeod. 18 years
23 on, outside what you recorded there, are you able to assist any further
24 with any impressions had you about Mr. Zupljanin?
25 A. No, I don't think so.
1 Q. All right. If you can just cast your mind back slightly, what
2 appeared to be the relationship between Radic, Zupljanin, and Vukelic?
3 A. So, Radic was clearly the civilian and he was deferring to the
4 military and the police in terms of security matters. And it was clear
5 that he was the main interlocutor that we had during the meetings. But
6 security was not within his -- within his control.
7 Q. Yes.
8 MS. KORNER: And then if we go to the last page, please, of this
10 Q. There you record your impression -- in fact, on the previous page
11 you started with Radic and then Zupljanin.
12 And, again, is there anything further that you can add after this
13 length of time to what you recorded there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Yes, thank you. That's that document.
16 I'd like you to have a look at one of the other documents,
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, page -- sorry. 3619, tab 21.
19 Q. That's the follow-up, second visit you had in Banja Luka on the
20 24th of August.
21 On this occasion, the meeting was with Mr. Radic, and - we can
22 see in paragraph 1 - Mr. Bulic, representing the Banja Luka Police.
23 Did you understand at all what Mr. Bulic's position in the police
24 was? Was that ever explained?
25 A. If it was, I can't remember what it was.
1 Q. All right. Going down to item 3 on that first page,
2 conversations. To begin with it's only Radic and his interpreter. And
3 you say that Mr. Radic made a strong opening attack. "Did you get
4 permission from the Bosanska Krajina government to arrange this visit?
5 If not, why not?"
6 Did you know what he was referring to by "the Bosanska Krajina
8 A. Yes, they had established a government, and what they were trying
9 to do was to get us to recognise that government as an independent
10 government and, therefore, state. And that was impossible at that point.
11 Q. Right. And then there's a reference at the bottom to the London
13 MS. KORNER: Now can we go, please, to the seventh page in
14 English, and I hope it's the same page in B/C/S. Mr. Radic again.
15 Q. You -- was it you, actually -- I mean, I know there were other
16 people with you, but it -- was it you asking the questions? because we
17 see in the middle of that page Mr. Radic was then asked if there had been
18 many examples of attacks in Bosanska Krajina against Croats or Muslims.
19 Was it you that asked that or someone else?
20 A. I suspect that was somebody else.
21 Q. Right. And I haven't asked you that now, but can you tell us,
22 because I don't think you record in your report who else was there, who
23 else was with you on that occasion?
24 A. That would have been another English monitor called
25 Barney Mayhew.
1 Q. All right. And then he'd in fact been in the ECMM since 1991?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So he was more familiar with the area than you were.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Mr. Radic says there were not individual acts but that the
7 "... unfortunately, from all three sides there were incidents,
8 ugly ones, but not in the Banja Luka opstina. And then he gives a
9 description of the killings, and talks about the regular military forces
10 who are under strict control of their commanders but also those who just
11 put on the uniforms, procure somehow the arms, and they do not decide,
12 differentiate, who to mistreat. We are arresting them by the military
13 and police, because by international convention men wearing uniforms and
14 carrying arms are treated as prisoner of war. In war it's easy to get
15 both, but we will clean them out in Banja Luka and also in other cities."
16 And then over the page you record your comment. You say:
17 "This strikes me as a formula for not according prisoner of war
18 status to any group of men whom it is more convenient to treat as
20 Could you just explain to the Trial Chamber what exactly you
21 meant by that comment.
22 A. It struck me that what they were saying was that at this time in
23 this place there were a lot of people who may or not may not have been
24 regular soldiers but who might have been wearing uniform and might have
25 been armed who were doing things out of control, and they were trying to
1 round them up. But he appeared to me at that point to be describing a
2 scenario whereby anybody wearing a uniform and carrying a gun could
3 actually be defined as somebody who is not a regular soldier and
4 therefore a criminal.
5 Q. Right. With what end in mind? That's what I think I'd like to
7 A. I -- I -- the inference being that if somebody was criminal, they
8 didn't have to be treated with the rights of the Geneva Conventions in
9 terms how you look after prisoners.
10 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you. That's all I want to ask you about
11 that document.
12 And then the final one of your -- the reports, please, to look
13 at, before we turn to the OS -- CSCE report, is document 3619 -- oh, I've
14 done that, sorry. Yes. All right.
15 MS. KORNER: 3614 at tab 17. I'm afraid they haven't been put
16 together in a chronological order. And this is the mission to -- the
17 part of the inspection in the Prijedor report on the 3rd of September.
18 Q. You set out that this meeting -- was -- this is part of a mission
19 from the 30th to 31st of August, and as you explain, you escorted the
20 CSCE mission group to Banja Luka with the aim of visiting prison camps.
21 You explain how you had a meeting in Gradiska. And then talk about
22 the -- Prijedor. And you there met Dr. Stakic, the mayor, paragraph 2.
23 And, in addition to that, Mr. Kovacevic, who was also there, and we can
24 see his interventions at page 3.
25 However, I just want to ask you about, please, because you dealt
1 with this in your testimony, the conclusions that you came to, which is
2 page 5.
3 First of all, your general impressions:
4 "The version of events that led to the opening of Trnopolje that
5 we were given by the mayor was in stark contrast to that given by the
6 people we spoke to in the camp."
7 Now, the report was written on the 3rd of September. Did you go
8 to the camp after you'd had the meeting with Stakic or before?
9 A. We met Stakic and then we went to the camp.
10 Q. Right.
11 "Conclusion. The authorities insist that they are acting in the
12 best interests of all the people in their area, that they have no desire
13 to get rid of the Muslim population. However, this just does not match
14 what they are actually doing. And against this background, it is very
15 hard to draw conclusions based on what is said.
16 "The conclusion to be drawn from what we have seen is that the
17 Muslim population is not wanted and is being systemically kicked out by
18 whatever method is available."
19 Was that conclusion based just on your visit with the
20 CSCE mission or altogether on your experience since you had joined in
21 July of 1992?
22 A. That was the conclusion that I had reached by that point in terms
23 of my experience of working in the theatre over the previous couple of
25 Q. All right. Thank you very much. That's all I want to ask you
1 about that.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm going to move on to the actual
3 report that was produced, which will be, apart from the photographs, the
4 last topic I'm going to ask about. Perhaps that might be a convenient
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.
7 The -- having regard to what we know in terms of what counsel
8 will spend with this witness, the Chamber would wish to take advantage of
9 the breaks to do such work on the several matters raised as it could. So
10 the two breaks that we take today will be of 30 minutes' duration.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. I can just -- if I can just explain to
12 Mr. McLeod that he will be finished today so that he knows.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours.
18 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Yes.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours invited us to give our position on
20 Videolink ST-223. Well, we haven't received the medical information and
21 all that, but accepting what Ms. Pidwell told us about the -- the -- the
22 witness condition, overall condition, we accept that he be called by
23 video -- he testifies over videolink.
24 However, Your Honours, the problem might be the documents.
25 Because according to the situation as it stands now, we're supposed to
1 give the documents for the other witness that is on the videolink by
2 Friday this week. And we will not be able to provide the documents to
3 the Registry for this other witness, due to this late notice.
4 So, therefore, we would request that we be given time until
5 Monday next week to provide the -- the -- our documents for
6 cross-examination to the Registry. And we believe that -- that -- there
7 is a sufficient time, because if we file -- if we give the documents on
8 Monday, then the Registry will be able to organise the travel on Tuesday,
9 because the videolink is on Wednesday, so ...
10 That is -- that is the situation.
11 Thank you, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Well, I think that the Prosecution
13 appreciates that the medical certificate is a condition precedent to the
14 Chamber agreeing to this, otherwise, practical suggestion. But the --
15 Mr. Zecevic's time-frame, will -- as he says, that would work.
16 Do you agree, Ms. Korner?
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, yes. But we won't -- I'm told
18 there's -- we won't be able to get the medical certificate this week. I
19 mean, as I understand it.
20 JUDGE HALL: Is it forthcoming? As long as it --
21 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes.
22 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... as long as we get an
23 undertaking that it's forthcoming.
24 MS. KORNER: Yes, there will be -- yes, yes.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm helpfully assisted by Ms. Pidwell.
4 The medical certificate won't say he can't travel; it will simply say
5 he's sick. So from that point of view, that's what it's going to say.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 Yes, could we have the witness back to the stand, please.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. Mr. McLeod, I now want to look with you at the actual full report
13 that was done by CSCE as a result of this mission, which has already been
14 exhibited as P1599.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is -- was -- is not a document
16 that needs to be under seal -- or not shown.
17 Q. Now, just so that we make it clear, Mr. McLeod, I don't think you
18 had any hand in actual writing this report nor saw it when it was
20 A. No, that's correct.
21 Q. However, you've had a chance to go through it, and I want to deal
22 with the parts that you are able to assist on, in that they certain seem
23 to be based on what you and the other members of the mission that you
24 were with saw.
25 Can I start by looking at -- we'll skip the -- well, perhaps we
1 look, first of all, at page 3 in English.
2 MS. KORNER: And I'm afraid, Your Honours, I can't assist with
3 B/C/S. Hopefully they're all about the same pages, but ...
4 Oh, sorry, it's not page 3. That's not the one I want. It's --
5 sorry. It's either -- one, two, three, four - page 5. Sorry. Page 3 of
6 the actual report.
7 If we're know showing the right page in B/C/S, perhaps the
8 Defence would be kind enough to let us know.
9 Q. I simply want to look, briefly, at method of work. First
10 paragraph. And then we see:
11 "The northern group, chaired by Sir John Thomson, was given the
12 task of investigating locations in northern Bosnia, also from west to
13 east, including Sarajevo."
14 And that's the group that you were with. Is that right,
15 Mr. McLeod?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. All right. Did you actually accompany them when they went to
18 Sarajevo, or were you just for the northern part?
19 A. I didn't go to Sarajevo.
20 Q. All right.
21 MS. KORNER: Then can we go, please, straight away to the ninth
22 page in English. And can we look at the paragraph that begins: "Lack of
23 respect for civilian population."
24 Q. "The mission determined that a complete range of individuals,
25 both male and females, young and old, are now being held throughout
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina in various places of detention. We met with prisoners
2 as young as 17, or even less, and as old as 83. The crucial point is
3 that thousands are being held against their will or under conditions
4 which make their departure from the places of their confinement virtually
6 Mr. McLeod, does that paragraph accord with your impressions from
7 the places that you visited?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then there is the categorisation of the prisoners.
10 MS. KORNER: And can we go to the next page in English, and I
11 hope -- I think it's probably the next page in B/C/S.
12 Q. And Category C:
13 "... people who were taken prisoner because they lived or worked
14 in the zone of combat ... not taking part in hostilities but were seen as
15 enemies due to their ethnic origin.
16 "Their civilian (non-combatant) status should have protected them
17 from detention. This category was easily the largest.
18 "Our experience suggests that a comparatively small percentage
19 of prisoners are genuine POWs. The remainder should never have been
20 imprisoned. We are not impressed by claims that they were incarcerated
21 for their own safety or simply because they happened to be resident in a
22 combat zone. It's impossible to escape the conclusion that most
23 prisoners are innocent people who have been seized as hostages to promote
24 ethnic cleansing. They are pawns in vicious games played by nationalist
25 politicians. These innocent people should be released forthwith."
1 That claim, Mr. McLeod, that they were being incarcerated for
2 their own safety, was that one that you heard being made personally?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what conclusion did you come to? As it was -- as is stated
5 in this report, or a different conclusion?
6 A. I think it was quite clear that people had been removed from
7 their houses and put into the various camps, not for their own safety but
8 as a -- part of the process of getting rid of them.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MS. KORNER: Can we go, then, please, to the next page.
11 Q. "All authorities told us that the prisoners they held were
12 legitimate prisoners of war. Serb authorities also insisted ... they had
13 the right to hold individuals taken in the area of the conflict ..."
14 And then it deals with what international legal experts said.
15 "Moreover, in our discussions with hundreds of detainees in Serb,
16 Muslim, and Croat places of detention, we found an appalling number of
17 individuals who we believe are, in fact, civilians with little, if any,
18 direct connection with the conflict."
19 Now, first, did you actually yourself see any of the Muslim or
20 Croat places of detention?
21 A. Not during this mission, no.
22 Q. All right. And it goes on to repeat that:
23 "We are very disturbed by the assertions from the parties that
24 many of the people they hold under these severe conditions are being held
25 for their own protection. Serb authorities in Prijedor, for example,
1 insisted that they were protecting the Muslims from Muslim extremists who
2 were fighting a guerrilla campaign from the former partisan stronghold of
3 the" -- Kozarac -- it says "Gorazde," but I think that should be Kozarac
4 "... mountain."
5 Again, was that something you heard them say in Prijedor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then, further down the page, the responsibility of leaders.
8 MS. KORNER: Can I be told whether we're on the right page in
9 B/C/S? I think probably not. No. Is that the right page? That's
10 right. Yep. Thank you.
11 Q. The responsibility of leaders.
12 "Despite the existence of warlords, the bulk of the evidence
13 points to the responsibility of acknowledged leaders. The Mission
14 believes that, in general, leaders exercise effective control over their
15 military and civilian structures. Contrary to what is usually accepted,
16 the so-called uncontrolled elements are marginal. They exist, but their
17 importance has been exaggerated by various leaders who find them a
18 convenient explanation for numerous barbarities. The mission have seen
19 camps, well organised, with military personnel or policemen doing what
20 they were told to do."
21 In one of the earlier reports, Mr. McLeod, we looked at, we dealt
22 with your view of what was being said to you by Mr. Radic about how by
23 classing people as criminals they were able to avoid the conventions
24 which applied to prisoners of war.
25 This paragraph here, does that, again, accord with your
1 impression of what was happening?
2 A. I think in practice the conclusion that I had reached after what
3 Mr. Radic had said the first time, without having seen the camps, was
4 that they were trying to twist things in one direction. Having seen the
5 camps, my conclusion would actually be the opposite. They were trying to
6 twist things in the other direction and therefore saying that a whole
7 bunch of people who had nothing to do with the military were prisoners
8 and they were holding them all as prisoners of war. And ... again it --
9 what they were saying was actually not what we were seeing in reality.
10 Q. All right. From your dealings with all the various parts of --
11 of the structures, as it were - the civilian, military, and police - did
12 you conclude that the leaders did, in fact, control what was happening?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then, can we go, please --
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. McLeod, could you specify your answer a bit.
16 On what basis do you reach this conclusion?
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if we wanted to visit, then we had to
18 have permission, and permission came from high up within the regional
19 government. And you had to have a permission and a stamp or a fax, and
20 so permissions were sent by fax. But this was something which -- and you
21 can see the interchange that we had where they were trying to persuade us
22 to acknowledge the fact that it was their government who was authorising
23 us to be there. So they had -- they had a structure, they had a
24 government, they were trying to gain international recognition for the
25 government, and it was clear that the structures that sat below that were
1 then able to take us to the camps and were in control of the camps. And
2 if you have five and a half thousand men in two camps, which you're taken
3 to see by those who are acting on behalf of the people you've given your
4 authority and you can see an order trail which takes you back to those
5 people as being those who are in charge, then I think it's fairly clear
6 that you've got a structure which is in control and has the ability to
7 detain five and a half thousand people at their will.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes, can we go to the next page, please. At the
10 bottom we can see the open centre at Trnopolje.
11 "We would like to call the chairman's attention to the Trnopolje
12 so-called open centre in the Serb-conquered area around Prijedor. This
13 dismal location no longer has barbed wire surrounding it, and Serb
14 officials insisted that the inmates were free to come and go as they
15 pleased. Our interviews with the persons within that facility produced a
16 vastly different perspective. Most of the 2.000 or so Muslims were
17 civilians driven from their homes in the region by the" [sic] "Serb
18 forces. Their residences have been burned, bombed, or occupied by
19 immigrant Serb families, leaving them no local place to go to, should
20 they wish to do so. Numbers of detainees who have left the camp have
21 never returned. And when night-falls, the level of personal security
22 reportedly drops precipitously. We discussed this situation with
23 controlling political authorities and, as a result, have developed a plan
24 of action which is set out in part 2."
25 Mr. McLeod, you went to Trnopolje; does this part of your report
1 accord with your experience?
2 A. Yes, it does.
3 Q. "Treatment of prisoners by authorities. With very few
4 exceptions, camp authorities have little sympathy for the detainees. We
5 witnessed the results of beatings, wounds, fractures, and other injuries
6 in camps controlled by the" [sic] "Serbian, Muslim, and Croatian
7 authorities and have reason to believe that innocent prisoners on all
8 sides have been executed. The prisoners interviewed are reluctant in
9 most cases to provide specific detail concerning atrocities, but many
10 provided hints. We conclude that some camp authorities have treated the
11 detainees with relative fairness, given the current circumstances,
12 whilst" [sic] "others have been clearly abusive, or at least have
13 tolerated mistreatment of detainees."
14 Now, on this occasion, for this mission, you told us you didn't
15 go to the Muslim and Croatian camps, but from the camps that you visited,
16 Manjaca and Trnopolje, did you yourself see signs of injury to any of the
18 A. Yes. I certainly went into the medical centre in Manjaca and saw
19 a number of men in there who had various injuries. I don't know what
20 caused them, and they weren't telling, but some of them were fairly
22 Q. And that's the next point I want to ask you about. It's already
23 contained in the reports which we haven't gone through today but a part
24 of your testimony.
25 Were the people that you spoke to reluctant to discuss what had
1 happened to them, as is stated here?
2 A. Yes. So I -- I speak German and I was able to try and -- and
3 make opportunities to go and talk to some of the men away from the
4 minders who were with us. And on each occasion that I started a
5 conversation, somebody, a camp guard or a minder, would then come and
6 join in fairly quickly to listen to what was going on. But in those
7 brief snatches of conversation, it was quite clear that they were
8 interested to see people from the international community; they wanted to
9 know how long they would be there; they were very reluctant to talk about
10 what was going on and the conditions; and they certainly didn't want to
11 talk about their conditions as soon as somebody was listening to the
12 conversation. And I had a couple of conversations in Manjaca and a
13 couple of conversation in Trnopolje, and each followed the same basic
14 theme. They were quite clear that they were not combatants. They were
15 quite clear that they had been taken against their will and had no idea
16 how long they were going to be kept there.
17 Q. Can we go, then, please, to the next page because there's a brief
18 description of what was seen at Manjaca. Under the heading: "Health of
20 "Whilst many civilians in BH are said to be short of nutritious
21 food, there can be no doubt that a majority of prisoners are more
22 seriously deprived. In Manjaca, most prisoners exhibit signs of very
23 serious malnourishment, including" - how do you pronounce that
24 one - "cachexia, hair loss ... and muscle wasting."
25 And then it goes on to say they admit to a weight loss of between
1 ten and 40 kilograms during the two months of detention there, and in
2 other notorious centres such as the camp at Omarska which the prisoners
3 believe is now closed.
4 Again, was that something you witnessed personally, Mr. McLeod?
5 A. Yes. While I'm -- I have no medical training, so I couldn't
6 comment on the medical diagnoses. But certainly the guys that I saw with
8 Q. And then at the bottom of that page and onto the next page:
9 "It is not too strong to say that the vast majority of prisoners
10 are living in fear, and some in terror, of their lives. This is
11 reflected in their behaviour. They react immediately to commands to
12 stand, sit, proceed to the eating places, and in many instances walk like
13 humbled or degraded persons, with stooped shoulders and their hands
14 behind their back. This was particularly evident in Manjaca and Konjic.
15 Previous mistreatment by authorities has undoubtedly broken the spirits
16 of many prisoners. Mental scars are likely to persist for a long time to
18 Obviously you're not qualified to deal with that. But when you
19 were at Manjaca, did you see behaviour as is described in this report?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. Then medical services. Again it deals with Manjaca in the
23 "The hospital ward at Manjaca is completely unacceptable, with
24 the ill and injured accommodated on the floor of a small former stable,
25 with only a single blanket each for their comfort."
1 You told us you went in there. Is that what you saw?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Yes. And then I think, the rest of the report,
4 there's a further long description of what was seen in each camp, and I
5 needn't trouble you with that.
6 Yes, thank you, Mr. McLeod. That all I ask you about this
8 Finally, can we just go through the photographs that you
9 produced, which ...
10 MS. KORNER: All right. The first photograph that I would like
11 to have up is 3601, which is at tab 6. Slightly out of order, I know,
12 but that's the way they've been bundled.
13 Q. Can you just explain to the Trial Chamber, Mr. McLeod, what that
14 photograph shows.
15 A. Certainly. So on -- on the 23rd of July, 1992, I was working in
16 Karlovac, which is a town in Croatia on the border with the unprotected
17 area, and this photograph depicts the crossing point in a village called
18 Turanj. And we had been told that on that day a number of people might
19 be crossing out of northern Bosnia into Croatia, and so we went to the
20 crossing point to observe. And this photograph, which was taken at some
21 point during the morning, shows an ECMM monitor and our interpreter. And
22 you can see in the background a car being driven by people who are
23 leaving. And there was a constant stream of vehicles during the day.
24 And then during the night there was a constant stream of people who were
25 being bused up to the Serb side of the crossing point and then told to
1 get out of the buses because the Serbs wouldn't let their buses drive
2 over into Croatia. And UNHCR had some very large trucks which they then
3 drove across and put people into the trucks and drove them into Karlovac.
4 And this went on all night. And our estimate was that about 9.000, but
5 very, very hard to tell, crossed over in that one day.
6 Q. Thank you. Next, can we go, please --
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just one small point of clarification.
8 I take it that the three soldiers we see are UN peacekeepers
9 or ...
10 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour, yes.
11 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... could we next have up,
12 please, 3607.
13 Q. Could you tell the Court what that depicts, please, Mr. McLeod.
14 A. Certainly. So this and the -- the - well, I have a number; I
15 don't know how many you'll see - a series of photographs I took through
16 the windscreen of my vehicle as we were driving back, having been to
17 Manjaca and Prijedor. So this is on the road from Prijedor back towards
18 Banja Luka on the 31st of August. And this -- this is just typical of
19 what the houses looked like. And what you can see there are houses that
20 have been burnt. So the roofs have been burnt off. They're not -- this
21 is not half-built construction; this is somebody's house that has been
22 damaged to the point where it is difficult to go back again.
23 MS. KORNER: Can we then look at the next in this series, at
25 Q. Is that the same road?
1 A. Yes. This -- this -- I think what we have now is a series of
2 photographs that I took as we were driving along the road.
3 Q. All right.
4 MS. KORNER: 3609.
5 Q. So, same road; is that right?
6 A. That -- that's right. And, again, I'm not sure how clearly you
7 can see it on the screen, but you can see the smoke damage above the
8 windows and --
9 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... actually can we --
10 THE WITNESS: -- the roof is gone.
11 MS. KORNER: Can we zoom in on it. Because I think you've got
12 your originals in front of you. Yep. Yes.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is there any indication of who lived in these
15 houses? I mean, were they Serb or were they Muslim or Croat communities?
16 THE WITNESS: I think, Your Honour, this had been -- this had
17 been an area in which the people whom we'd meant in Trnopolje and Manjaca
18 had previous lived.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. [Microphone not activated] You say it's on the road
22 Banja Luka-Prijedor -- you say it's on the road Banja Luka-Prijedor,
23 Prijedor to Banja Luka. Are you able to give a rough indication of what
24 the nearest village was? No.
25 A. Not at this stage. I could take out a map and guess. But it
1 would be a guess.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... yes, again that's 3610
4 -- 3610. And I think the last in this sequence is 3611.
5 Q. Okay. I mean, there, Mr. McLeod, we see an example of there's
6 one house which has obviously been destroyed surrounded by two that
7 haven't. Is that right?
8 A. Umm, I think --
9 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... or is that --
10 A. I -- I think what you can see there is the small house on the
11 left looks as if it's still being occupied, and the two houses to the
12 right have pretty clearly been destroyed.
13 Q. From any inquiries you made and any of the conversation you had,
14 do you know why one house was left standing and two are destroyed or
16 A. In this particular instance, I have no idea. But what was quite
17 typical was to find that houses belonging to the ethnic group in the area
18 in which one was at any particular time would have people living in them
19 and their neighbour's house would be blown up, if the neighbour happened
20 to come from the wrong ethnic group. And that was a pattern which one
21 saw as much in Croatia as one saw in Serb-controlled parts of northern
22 Bosnia, for example.
23 Q. All right. And just so the Court understands - I don't think I
24 dealt with this with you because it's not relevant to this particular
25 case - you weren't just in this area of Bosnia; you were in a number of
1 other areas of the former Yugoslavia, is that right, throughout your
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Yep. And I think the final photograph I'd like to ask you about
5 is, please, 3617, which is at divider 19.
6 A. Yes. So what you can see there, and, again, it's less clear on
7 the screen than it is in the originals that I have in front of me, but a
8 group of men carrying their possessions in -- in plastic carrier bags,
9 following an ICRC Land Cruiser. So the white -- you can probably just
10 about make out on the screen the cover on the rear -- on the spare tire
11 of the back of the Land Cruiser and its brake light. I took this
12 photograph on the 1st of October, 1992, and these are men who had been
13 taken under the control of the ICRC from Trnopolje and they're crossing
14 over into Croatia. And, again, on this occasion, the buses which the
15 Serbs had provided to take them from Trnopolje stopped on the Serb side
16 of the line at Turanj, and then we simply walked, through no-man's land,
17 down through the village to the Croatian side and then the ICRC had
18 arranged buses on the other side. Yes.
19 Q. Yes, thank you.
20 Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod, that's all you're asked.
21 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, subject to cross-examination, I
22 ask that the whole package be admitted.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
25 My name is Dragan Krgovic. On behalf of the Stojan Zupljanin
1 Defence, I'm going to ask you questions about your testimony given here
3 Since my English is not as good as that of the other
4 participants, I will speak Serbian, which will be simultaneously
5 interpreted into English. I will make an effort to speak more slowly so
6 you can understand me better and the interpreters can interpret more
8 Let me come back to a part of your answer, sir, which you
9 provided to a question asked by the Prosecutor about the second meeting
10 in Banja Luka when you spoke to Mr. Radic.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be
12 shown Exhibit P841.2. That's tab 21 in the Prosecution binder.
13 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, I'm told
14 it's 2D -- no. 3619.
15 Sorry, 65 ter. Forget the 2D. It's 3619, 65 ter number.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 7 on the
17 screen in both the English and Serbian language versions.
18 Q. Here in this report you speak about incidents happening among the
19 members of other ethnicities. As far as I understood, Mr. Radic, here,
20 speaks about murders, or incidents, committed by some persons in uniform.
21 And as you say, they somehow come by weapons and they are not picky about
22 the people who they mistreat.
23 These persons actually are Serbs who are dressed in various
24 uniforms and commit various crimes. Is that correct?
25 A. I would need to go back to be able to see what we said before
1 that to understand the context. I'm sorry, just a moment.
2 Q. Take a look at this comment of yours. Mr. Radic was then asked
3 if there had been many examples of attacks in Bosanska Krajina against
4 Croats or Muslims. It's on the same page. It is marked as a comment.
5 Obviously there was a question by a member of your team about crimes
6 committed by Serbs against Croats or Muslims. Correct?
7 MS. KORNER: I think the witness wants to be able to read the
8 whole thing to put it in context before he answers Mr. Krgovic's
10 THE WITNESS: Okay. So to answer the first part of the question,
11 what he's talking about at the top of the page relates to what he's heard
12 that is happening in Sarajevo, I believe. I'm not ...
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Take a careful look at page 7, please. The first comment:
15 [In English] "Mr. Radic was then asked if there had been many
16 examples of attack" [as interpreted] "in Bosanska Krajina against Croats
17 or Muslims?"
18 A. Sorry, and then your second question related to the comment. And
19 so, yes, that's what he said.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Here Mr. Radic was asked about crimes committed
21 against Muslims and Croats or, in other words, he was asked about attacks
22 committed in Bosanska Krajina. Correct?
23 I saw you nod, but please say your answer, because otherwise it
24 can't be recorded.
25 A. Certainly. So, yes, at this point he is talking about what was
1 going on in Bosanska Krajina.
2 Q. And then he says that there were such incidents, ugly ones, from
3 all three sides but not in the Banja Luka municipality.
4 And then he continues to say that there were 13 killings and even
5 killings among Serbs. Then two were Croats, one gypsy, and two others.
6 And he continues to say: When it comes to regular military
7 forces, they are under the strict control of their commanders, but there
8 are also those who just put on uniforms, procure somehow weapons, and do
9 not differentiate who to mistreat.
10 This is basically the continuation of Radic's presentation, and
11 he speaks about people who commit such crimes. Is that correct?
12 A. That's what he's saying, yes.
13 Q. Mr. Radic goes on to say: We are arresting them with the
14 assistance of the military and the police, because under international
15 conventions [as interpreted] men wearing uniforms and carrying arms are
16 treated as prisoners of war. In war, it is easy to procure both uniforms
17 and weapons, but we will cleanse Banja Luka and other cities of them.
18 Here Mr. Radic speaks about these very people who are outside the
19 chain of command, and he is saying what the Serbian authorities are doing
20 about that; right?
21 A. Yes. And I think if you then look at my comment on the next page
22 where I say that "this strikes me as a formula for not according prisoner
23 of war status to any group of men whom it is more convenient to treat as
24 criminals," that in practice what he was describing was a scenario
25 whereby you had Muslims who had got weapons and were wearing uniforms but
1 who might not have been part of a military formation, as opposed to Serbs
2 who were wearing uniforms and carrying weapons and were not under the
3 control of the Serbian authorities. And clearly I can't remember the
4 conversation as it took place, but the fact that I wrote the comment that
5 I wrote at that time would suggest that I understood that he was talking
6 about the -- the -- the Bosnian Muslim extremists as opposed to Serbs.
7 But, in practice, I can't remember the conversation now.
8 Q. And basically what you put down here does not at all mention
9 Muslims or Croats or members of other ethnicities. Mr. Radic, here,
10 speaks about Serbs who commit certain crimes and he says that they are
11 being arrested. Correct?
12 A. I -- I -- I can't remember, and so it would be foolish to try and
13 draw a conclusion other than looking at what I wrote down.
14 Q. If I understood you correctly, based on what Mr. Radic said about
15 how they treat uniformed Serbs who commit crimes, you drew a conclusion
16 that the same could be applied to Muslims; correct?
17 A. I -- I -- I wouldn't -- I wouldn't want to try and interpret it.
18 What I think he was saying - and I think the reason why I wrote the
19 comment that I wrote - is that I think he was setting out his stall in
20 terms saying this is how we deal with people, and therefore he -- I --
21 what I -- what I guess I understood at the time, based on the report that
22 I wrote, is that he was describing a scenario in which he had an excuse
23 -- he. The authorities had an excuse for picking up Bosnians, Muslims,
24 whom they wanted to ...
25 Q. Please take a careful look at this part where you noted Radic's
2 You will agree with me when I say that there's no mention made of
3 members of other ethnicities here. He is just saying that Muslims and
4 Croats are being mistreated and harassed and about the treatment the Serb
5 authorities afford to these people. Isn't that right?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The translation is
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Well, here in this section you will agree with me that Mr. Radic
11 speaks about the way the Serb authorities treat Serbs who commit certain
12 crimes or harassment of Muslims and Croats; correct?
13 A. Yes. He was asked if there's been examples of attacks against
14 Croats or Muslims, and so in -- yes. In that context, he is then saying
15 that there had been incidents on all three sides, but not in Banja Luka.
16 Q. And you will agree with me when I say that no mention is made
17 here of any actions taken against Muslims and Croats, but, on the
18 contrary, he was promising you that he would cleanse Banja Luka and other
19 towns where there are people who commit such crimes against Croats and
20 Muslims and that these people will be arrested; isn't that correct?
21 If you look at the last paragraph of Radic's words as related by
22 you, that's basically the meaning, isn't it?
23 A. Yes. And -- and then, as I said earlier on, I also wrote a
24 comment at the time, and because I wrote that comment, I'm assuming that
25 actually I thought there was something else going on in what he was
1 saying. But at 18 years' distance, we're stuck with the words that I've
2 got written down in my report as opposed to my actual memory of the
4 Q. Your impression was, when you were visiting Manjaca, that the
5 Serb authorities -- or, rather, the military authorities you had an
6 opportunity to speak to at Manjaca, that they considered that all persons
7 detained at Manjaca were prisoners of war; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that, according to you, they strove to widen the circle of
10 persons to be considered prisoners of war, even beyond the standards that
11 you were familiar with; correct?
12 A. They described all the people that they were holding at Manjaca
13 as prisoners of war. And my understanding of someone who is a prisoner
14 of war is somebody who has been engaged in combat and is wearing a
15 uniform and carrying a weapon, as opposed to someone who is a civilian
16 who happens to be living in a combat zone. And the impression that I
17 formed was that most, if not all, of the people that we saw were not
18 wearing uniform and claimed not to have been combatants.
19 Q. And you will agree with me when I say that at the time there was
20 a dilemma that one had to face on the occasion of each exchange of
21 prisoners in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that the war that went on there
22 was -- were very from any organised combat with -- between uniformed
23 armies that are controlled by the respective governments and honour the
24 rules of war. Isn't that right?
25 A. I'm sorry, are you suggesting that --
1 Q. I apologise. One part of my question was badly interpreted.
2 That there was a dilemma the representatives of the international
3 community in Bosnia faced when making an honest assessment of the type of
4 prisoners that you encountered, that the war waged there was far from any
5 organised combat between uniformed armies serving recognised governments
6 and honouring the rules of war. Isn't that correct?
7 A. No. I -- I think it was quite clear, and not just in northern
8 Bosnia but in -- in -- in each of the various areas where I worked, that
9 there were political and military structures in place. And under those
10 political and military structures, you had police, both military and
11 civilian police, and it was quite clear that those structures were
12 working on behalf of the direction provided by the politicians and
13 interpreted by the military and political -- and police commanders. And
14 so you could see regular army units and police units and so on which
15 clearly had a structure and a hierarchy. And then you could also see, in
16 each area, that there were civilians who were caught up in -- in the mess
17 and -- and so you -- you could see Serbian civilians in
18 Croatian-controlled areas, for example. As well as seeing Bosnian or
19 Croatian civilians in Serbia-controlled areas who were clearly not
20 combatants but who were being pushed around by those in uniform.
21 So, I'm sorry, I disagree with your statement.
22 Q. And furthermore, you are aware that neither age nor gender were
23 an obstacle to participating in the civil war that was being waged then
24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
25 A. I don't see that age or gender is a -- is a barrier to taking
1 part in warfare in various different places. However, I didn't see any
2 evidence of very young people -- I can't remember seeing examples of
3 women carrying weapons across any of the parties, particularly.
4 No, so -- so -- by and large not, no. Sorry.
5 Q. And you will agree with me when I say that there are, or that
6 there were, various kinds of uniformed armed groups and individuals who
7 participated in this conflict; correct?
8 A. Quite clearly on -- on -- on -- actually, on all three -- on all
9 three sides, yes.
10 Q. And some of these groups are the product of those who we can
11 consider only local warlords; others are sort of civil protection; and
12 others, again, are the armed wing of a right-wing political party. And
13 then individuals were mobilized directly from their houses and fight in
14 civilian clothes.
15 Do you agree with this assessment of mine of the situation in
17 A. I probably agree with parts of it, and there are other parts were
18 I can't really comment, because I'm not in a position to agree or
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
21 Exhibit P1599.
22 Could we please go to page 8 of this document. It's page 8 in
23 the Serbian version, and I believe that's it's the previous page to this
24 in the English version.
25 I apologise. It isn't this one. It should be page 7 in English.
1 Q. Take a look at the last paragraph, please. What I just put to
2 you in the form of questions is the very content of the report shown to
3 you by Ms. Korner, and you commented on these paragraphs with the
5 Please read these paragraphs carefully.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you agree with the assessment given in the last paragraph on
9 page 8 in English?
10 A. Yes. And -- and so what I said in my -- in my response to you
11 was that there are bits of it where I'm quite clear, because of what I
12 saw, that this is correct. And there are some bits where, because I
13 didn't actually see it with my own eyes, I can't agree with it. I didn't
14 see people who had been mobilized in civilian clothes carrying weapons,
15 so I can appreciate that may have been going on, but I didn't see that.
16 But I'm certainly aware that there were groups on all three sides who
17 were acting not entirely within -- within the -- the normal command
18 structure, although, again, I suspect that at some level all of them
19 actually were under some degree of control. But ...
20 Q. But the crux of the matter is that these people whom you talked
21 to when you visited these detention centres were in -- civilians. They
22 could easily have been members of these armed formations, only they
23 didn't have any fire-arms on them -- I apologise, they didn't wear any
25 A. They may have been. But then, again, they may not have been.
1 And, I'm sorry, I don't know. But the impression that I had formed was
2 that they had not been.
3 Q. This is what you concluded on the basis of the answers that they
4 gave to you, when you asked them about this?
5 A. Yes. And some of them looked pretty old.
6 Q. And, of course, someone who had taken part in combat but is
7 captured without uniform would deny having been involved in combat
8 because they would like to gain freedom, and they would deny any
9 participation whatsoever in any conflict. Is that right?
10 Because the next question asked was when they were going to be
11 set free.
12 A. I'm not quite sure where the question is in that. I'm sorry.
13 Q. Are you -- I'm asking you: Is it normal to expect that the people
14 who were captured and are keen to be set free to deny having been
15 involved in any conflict or carrying arms or fighting in any other way?
16 A. Sure. I guess -- I guess that, in terms of the
17 Geneva Conventions -- and this might be straying a little bit, but if
18 you're not in a uniform, then the assumption might be that you're a spy
19 and then you're treated quite differently, actually. Historically, that
20 was certainly the case.
21 Q. And, of course, you are well aware that according to the
22 Geneva Conventions the civilians are also afforded the status of POWs who
23 are assisting armed forces and who have certain links with military
25 A. I'm not an expert on the Geneva Conventions, I'm afraid.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, are you referring to the concept
2 known as "levée en masse"?
4 was going to ask the witness if he is familiar with that concept.
5 Q. You heard the comment made by Judge Harhoff. Are you familiar
6 with this concept?
7 A. No.
8 MS. KORNER: I'm more interested in whether Mr. Krgovic is
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am. I have prepared this,
11 but the next document that I intend to show was the Geneva Conventions.
12 However, since he said that was not an expert in the Geneva Conventions,
13 I'm going to stop this whole line of questioning. But I do have a few
14 more questions on this topic.
15 Q. Sir --
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Time for the break, okay.
18 JUDGE HALL: So we return in 30 minutes.
19 MS. KORNER: Are Your Honours taking half an hour on this break
20 as well?
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, I'm not going to ask you any more questions about the
3 Geneva Conventions, in light of the answers that you had given.
4 I am interested in another subject that you discussed with the
5 Prosecutor, which is the issue of Trnopolje.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look now at page 21 of the
7 document that are already have on the screen. Let me just check whether
8 the pages in both versions correspond. And that's in Annex C.
9 Q. Sir, are you familiar that within the context of solving the
10 problem of Trnopolje there were certain proposals made by the
11 European Monitoring Mission and that it was decided -- or, rather,
12 concluded, that the individuals held at Trnopolje be evacuated to various
13 other locations?
14 A. Right. So the English version doesn't match the B/C/S version.
15 However, and I think that the --
16 Q. Just a moment, please.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your indulgence, please.
18 That's page 23 in English.
19 THE WITNESS: That's still not the right page.
20 We still don't have the right page, I'm afraid.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] ... page 25.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: 25. Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. So these were recommendations being made by
24 the OSCE, or whatever it was in those days, as opposed to the ECMM. So
25 these recommendations were made by the CSCE.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And the photograph shown to you by the Prosecutor where one can
3 see the jeep of the ICRC and the process of evacuation of inmates from
4 Trnopolje was actually implementation of this memorandum, and the
5 organiser was the International Committee of the Red Cross. Is that
7 A. I don't know if it followed this report. But chronologically it
8 did. And, yes, the evacuation was organised by the ICRC.
9 Q. Can you please look at the last sentence of the first paragraph,
10 which reads:
11 "Whatever their longer term hopes, no one wishes in present
12 circumstances to return to their homes in western Bosnia, because the
13 local administration cannot or will not guarantee their physical
15 In your responses to the Prosecutor's questions, was said that
16 you heard from the Serbian sounds [as interpreted] that one of the
17 reasons for those people being at Trnopolje was because it was impossible
18 to guarantee their safety if they stayed at home. Does that collate or
19 correspond to the impressions that you have after talking to the people
20 at Trnopolje?
21 A. Yes. So the Serbs in Prijedor explained that the people in
22 Trnopolje there were for their own protection. So they were there to be
23 protected them from something, not quite clear what. And the people whom
24 I spoke to in Trnopolje made it clear that it -- they couldn't go home
25 because it was not safe to go home.
1 I think that what the Serbs in Prijedor were telling us didn't
2 really stack up, didn't make sense, because, in practice, I think the
3 people, the Serbs in Prijedor, were the people who were causing -- who
4 were creating the scenario, the situation, in which it was impossible for
5 these people to go home. That was the impression that I formed.
6 Q. As you just said, there was another reason for their feeling
7 unsafe, which was possible attacks on those people by the Serbs if they
8 returned home from these centres; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In contact with the authorities of the republic -- or of the
11 Krajina, did you discern that any measures had been taken for those
12 people to be guaranteed or provided safety once they are released from
13 the centres?
14 I just wanted to add that I was referring to local authorities as
15 well, in addition to the ones mentioned.
16 A. No, I'm not aware that there were any -- I'm not sure I
17 understood the question, I'm sorry. Just try one more time, please.
18 Q. It was a lengthy question and part of it was not interpreted
20 So, in your talks with the local people in Prijedor, or with the
21 people from the Autonomous Region of Krajina or the Government of
22 Republika Srpska, did you inquire whether it was possible for those
23 people to be guaranteed safety if they are released from these detention
24 centres where they were being kept?
25 A. Um ... I'm not sure we asked the question exactly the way that
1 you're asking me. And so I -- I would have to go back to my -- my
2 understanding of the fact that they were saying that the reason why
3 people were in Trnopolje was for their own safety, and so, presumably,
4 they felt that they could guarantee their safety if they were in
5 Trnopolje but possibly not if they were elsewhere. I can't remember
6 somebody asking exactly the -- the question exactly the way that you've
7 framed it, though.
8 Q. Can you please go back to page 13 of this report, Chapter 2,
9 entitled: "Recommendations."
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 15 in the English.
11 Can we please have page 16 in English.
12 Q. Can you look at sub-item (b), which reads:
13 "No prisoner should be released into a dangerous situation.
14 There must be adequate and supervised protection so that the prisoners
15 may go to any place within BH of their choice ..."
16 Now my question is: When you talked to Mayor Radic and you
17 mentioned the prisoners at Manjaca, did he tell you that a number of
18 people from Manjaca were released and that they were in Banja Luka at the
19 moment and that the Muslim body called Mehamet [phoen] provided
20 accommodation for them precisely because it was unsafe for those people
21 to go back to their homes where they had originally been captured?
22 A. I can't remember. But if that's in the report, then I'm quite
23 happy to go back to the report to look at it, if you'd like me to.
24 Q. My next question is as follows: When you presented the assessment
25 of the impossibility of their return and unsafety, you were not aware of
1 the efforts that Republika Srpska was making at the time to ensure that
2 these people enjoy personal safety and protection once they return to
3 their homes?
4 MS. KORNER: No, I'm sorry, I object to the form of that
5 question. "You are not aware of the efforts that Republika Srpska was
6 making at the time to ensure these people enjoy personal safety"
7 presupposes that that's what the evidence is.
8 Mr. Krgovic can put any document that he wants to, or ask the
9 question in -- in a different form.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was just a
11 prelude to my next question, and, in that respect, I would like the
12 witness to be shown Exhibit P607, please.
13 Q. Sir, this is a letter from Stojan Zupljanin, whom you saw at the
14 meeting. In this letter, he is writing to the local chiefs of police and
15 giving them an instruction or direction that had been issued by the
16 Ministry of the Interior and other bodies from the Serbian Republic with
17 relation to the closure of these centres. And in paragraph 3, it says:
18 [In English] "There is some information that indicate that
19 isolated individuals might be attacked or threatened in some other way
20 after their return to their home areas. Therefore, we call the attention
21 of SJB chiefs and other officials to their obligation to take appropriate
22 measures to protect these individuals, guard their houses and property,
23 and prevent any attempt in threatening or in any other way intimidating
24 these people."
25 [Interpretation] And in the last paragraph:
1 [In English] "In co-operation with municipal bodies of the
2 Red Cross organisation, humanitarian organisation" [sic] "and other
3 bodies, it is necessary to provide food, accommodation, medical, and
4 other forms of help to the above-mentioned returnees."
5 [Interpretation] Sir, you certainly didn't inquire with your
6 collocutors whether anything had been undertaken in that sense, and I
7 suppose that you had never seen this document before?
8 A. No, I haven't seen this before.
9 Q. And when you talked with the officials, you did not ask them
10 whether any measures were undertaken to provide security for those
11 people; is that right?
12 A. I can't remember whether that question was asked exactly the way
13 that you're asking it. For what it's worth, the impression that I had
14 was that that was not what was going on. There was a flow of people from
15 houses to places like Trnopolje and then out, as opposed to from
16 Trnopolje back to houses, because the houses that they had come from were
17 no longer habitable. So that -- that was the overriding impression that
18 I formed.
19 Q. And when you prepared your report and when you mentioned Kozarac
20 and took those photographs, you did not inquire about the conflicts in
21 Kozarac and whether the houses had been damaged during war operations.
22 You did not ask for information from the other side, i.e., from the
23 Serbs, but, rather, based your report on your conversations with the
24 Muslims. Is that correct?
25 A. Um ...
1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... which report? I'm
2 sorry, Your Honours, it's not clear. Which report is Mr. Krgovic
3 referring to?
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the three reports
5 entered into evidence that pertain to his visit to Banja Luka.
6 Q. In those reports, when you drafted them, you did not ask the
7 Serbian side about the conflicts in Kozarac or about how the houses were
8 damaged; instead, you based -- your report only on your talks with the
9 people at Manjaca and Trnopolje?
10 A. I think it's fairly clear - I hope it's fairly clear - that the
11 first two reports are my visits to Banja Luka and then the reports that I
12 wrote about the visits to Manjaca and Trnopolje. But in the two first
13 visits, I was trying to give a flavour, not a complete verbatim
14 transcript like this one, but a flavour for what it was that the people
15 we were meeting, the Serbs that we were meeting, in Banja Luka were
16 telling us; and so I was reflecting, as accurately as I could, a
17 snap-shot of what they were saying to us about the conditions that they
18 were facing. And then I was drawing my conclusions based on what they
19 were saying and what I was observing, myself.
20 And similarly, having been to Manjaca and Trnopolje, again, I was
21 trying to capture as faithfully as I could what the Serbs were telling us
22 at Manjaca and Prijedor. And, again, it wasn't a verbatim transcript of
23 the meetings, but it was my best effort. And then, again, adding my
24 comments based on my understanding of what I was actually seeing, as well
25 as what I was being told. I think - I would hope - that it's fairly
1 clear that I was being as accurate as I could about how I was reflecting
2 what the Serbs who were talking to me were describing events.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May I proceed?
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Okay.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan:
8 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. If I understood your evidence correctly, you've told us that a
11 person who is in uniform carrying a weapon and involved in combat can be
12 detained as a prisoner of war. Do we understand you correctly?
13 A. Yes. That would be -- that would be a shorthand way of
14 describing a -- a typical way of identifying a combatant.
15 Q. All right. What would your view be, if you have one, on a person
16 in civilian clothes who's armed and participating in combat? Can that
17 person be legitimately detained?
18 A. Depending on -- on -- on what they're doing and where they are,
19 then they're either a combatant or they're a criminal. And, again,
20 you'll be aware of my experience in the army, working in Northern Ireland
21 where there were a group of people wearing civilian clothes and carrying
22 weapons and the British government was very careful to treat them as
23 criminals as opposed to combatants. So I'm aware that you can dance on
24 pinheads around the issue, but yes.
25 Q. All right. And you would agree with me that in the theatre in
1 Bosnia at the time, where you were, there were both uniformed and
2 non-uniformed groups involved in combat; is that right?
3 A. I didn't actually see people who were not in uniform carrying
4 weapons and in combat. So I saw lots of people wearing lots of different
5 type of uniform belonging to different organisations and units. I didn't
6 actually see people wearing civilian ... well, the one example that I can
7 think of off the top of my head of somebody who was wearing civilian
8 clothes and armed was a gentleman who'd come from the Ministry of Health
9 in Pale when we visited Manjaca, but that's -- he was possibly an
11 Q. Referring back to Exhibit P1599, sir, that's the CSCE mission
12 report for 24 August to 4 September 1992, the one we've been looking at.
13 You did not author that report, if I understood it correctly?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And on page 8 of that report we've shown you, at the last
16 paragraph on page 8, where there is mention of uniformed and
17 non-uniformed groups, individuals mobilized directly from their homes,
18 fighting in civilian clothes.
19 Would you have any reason to doubt that information in there?
20 A. No. And, again, it's worth noting that the report was written
21 describing the findings of the rapporteur mission across the whole area,
22 and they may well actually have seen more evidence than -- they may have
23 seen evidence of that, where I didn't. In different places.
24 Q. Would you accept that the people that you saw in detention when
25 you visited the centres, the camps, in civilian clothes may very well
1 have been non-uniformed fighters who were in detention?
2 A. So, in Manjaca they may have been. And, again, the very clear
3 explanation that we've given for Trnopolje was that these were not
4 soldiers, because they were people who were being kept there for their
5 own protection; as opposed to being prisoner of war who were being held
6 there because they were prisoners of war. So it may well have been the
7 case in Manjaca, but I don't think it was the case in Trnopolje.
8 Q. When you visited Manjaca, did you have the authority to attempt
9 to establish whether or not these people were involved in combat?
10 A. I'm not quite sure whether I needed authority to establish that.
11 I wasn't -- I was -- I was talking to them. I'm not quite sure what your
12 question is after, I'm sorry.
13 Q. I will be more specific. Did you discuss with the -- those in
14 charge of detention, those in charge of facility, did you discuss with
15 them why the people were there or seek records showing why the people
16 were detained there?
17 A. I think that my testimony probably already describes the long
18 explanation that we were given by the gentleman who was running the camp
19 as to how he was running it and why he was running it. And I'm fairly
20 sure that we've probably also, in a separate Trial Chamber, rehearsed the
21 questions that John Thomson asked him. At this stage, I can't -- without
22 looking back at the documentation, I can't actually remember how -- how
23 the conversation went.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. McLeod, could I just follow up on your last
1 answer to -- to counsel.
2 Because I guess that counsel's question to you was really whether
3 you were told that the detainees at Manjaca were, in fact, POWs. Do you
4 recall whether you were given such information?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. And -- and I could refer back to
6 my report, if that would help. But we were given a very long explanation
7 of how the Geneva Conventions were being applied to these individuals who
8 were there as prisoner of war. And that explanation was provided by the
9 camp commandant. So as far as he was concerned, he was holding prisoners
10 of war, and he was at pains to explain to us how he was applying the
11 Geneva Conventions correctly.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: And were you given at that occasion or at any
13 later occasion any evidence to sustain or to support the characterisation
14 of the detainees as POWs?
15 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. So -- so it -- and, again, I
16 would appreciate that people would find it quite hard to be able to show
17 us a chain of evidence that we captured somebody at this point and at
18 that time he was armed and involved in this conflict and then to show us
19 an evidence chain all the way through to an individual actually in
20 Manjaca. So I appreciate it would be difficult to do that, but nobody
21 actually did that. They simply said, These are men who are prisoner of
22 war whom we have captured and are now detaining. And that explanation
23 didn't accord with the explanation that I was given by the people with
24 whom I spoke in Manjaca.
25 And, again, I appreciate that they may have been just making it
1 all up, but that not the impression that I formed at the time. It was
2 very intense little conversations which dried up as soon as somebody got
3 close enough to be able to listen to what was going on, at which point
4 they didn't want to talk about anything.
5 And the impression that I formed was not -- was that these --
6 these looks like civilians. Again, I don't know, and it's interesting
7 that nobody has raised it, the extent to which all of these people
8 probably carried out military service as conscripts in the JNA at some
9 point before the conflict, and so I have no doubt that many of them at
10 some point would have been trained to use weapons. Many of them may well
11 have been using weapons to defend their homes. But the net product was
12 pretty clear as far as I was concerned.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Were you given any information about
14 the armed units to which the detainees were supposed to have belonged to?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did the commander provide you with any
17 information about who exactly the enemy was?
18 THE WITNESS: I would understand, My Lord, that he was suggesting
19 that these people had been fighting against the regular Serb forces as
20 the Serb forces tried to protect the Serb population of, for example,
21 Prijedor, from the uprising being carried out by these people against
22 them. That was the -- that was the logic that was being explained. And
23 that didn't quite tie up with the version of events which other people
24 were describing in which the Serb forces, regular or otherwise, were
25 coming to people's house; taking them out; inviting the women and
1 children to move in one direction, the men to move in another direction;
2 incarcerating the men in one set of camps and women and children in
3 another set camps; and then bit by bit allowing them to move into
4 Croatia. And I was involved, as you are aware, in monitoring the release
5 by the ICRC of detainees from both Manjaca and Trnopolje which carried on
6 over time the rest of that year and possibly into January. I can't
7 remember exactly when Manjaca was closed down eventually, but it was a
8 while later.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: So in your recollection the camp commander
10 depicted the detainees as being members of an armed uprising. Is that
11 correctly understood?
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, would it be better, given that
13 Mr. McLeod's pointed out it's been 18 years, if we had his report on the
14 screen, which is part of the package.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me hear the witness's answer.
16 THE WITNESS: My Lord, I can't -- I can't remember whether it was
17 the commandant of Manjaca or the mayor or others we were talking to in
18 Prijedor who were characterising them exactly like that, but certainly
19 between those series of conversation which took place over the couple of
20 days, that was the -- that was the -- that was how they were trying to
21 portray what had happened.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.
23 Back to you, Ms. Korner.
24 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we have up, please, on the screen a
25 document which is part of the 92 ter package, which is 10217.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
2 Q. Which you've dealt with in your Brdjanin testimony, Mr. McLeod.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have a tab number, please.
4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's tab 22.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. If we look at the bottom of the first page of your report, which
8 you've noted down also in your personal notes from which this report was
10 "Colonel Popovic. Welcome to this PW camp. My name is
11 Colonel ... Popovic. I am the commandant of this camp. I want to stress
12 this is a PW camp and not a concentration camp."
13 And then started to refer to the Geneva Conventions. And as I
14 think you pointed out, he appeared to have a prepared script. Is that
15 right Mr. McLeod?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. KORNER: Can we go to the next page, please.
18 Q. "There are around 3.640 prisoners of war in this camp." And then
19 he goes back to the Geneva Convention articles. "The people in the camp
20 have been caught in the zone of combat in accord with Article 4 of the
21 Geneva Conventions, numbers 1, 2," et cetera, et cetera. Which specify
22 who can be a prisoner of war.
23 And then I think he went through what he was doing to comply, as
24 he put it, with the Geneva Conventions.
25 MS. KORNER: And can we look at the next page, please.
1 Q. Paragraph 21: "You are probably interested in the nationality of
2 the prisoner of war." There are 125 Croats, 3.4 per cent; Serbs 0.04;
3 and Muslims, 96.5.
4 And then there was a specific inquiry about a particular
5 Canadian Croat, I think.
6 Can we go to the next page, and this may deal with what
7 Judge Harhoff was asking you about. Paragraph 33. Just above
8 paragraph 33, the commandant was asked how the prisoners of war were
9 actually taken, if they were actually fighting or carrying weapons."
10 And the response:
11 "There is an interrogation period. Everyone is being
12 interrogated. And if it is proven that he did not take part in the
13 fighting, he will be free."
14 Now the question, I don't know whether presumably but one of the
15 members of the commission rather than you, Mr. McLeod, was a direct one:
16 How were they taken? Was that the only answer that he gave?
17 A. That appears to the only answer that I wrote down.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. And then wrote up in the report.
20 Q. Right. And were you making notes at the time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Yep. And I think -- and perhaps we'd just better look at the
23 last page of this report.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I'm terribly sorry, but I note that
25 there might be a -- a wrong translation of this document. Because that
1 might make a confusion. It's -- paragraph 33, can we have it back?
2 Paragraph 33 in Serbian.
3 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... sorry, it's an English
4 report. I'm reading from the English -- I don't know -- I'm sorry.
5 I'm reading -- this is an English report written in English. I
6 don't know how it's been translated; I can't help that. But if you say
7 there's a mistake, Mr. Zecevic, then we can correct it. But We're not
8 going --
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much. I'm sorry, I mixed it up, I'm
11 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we go back to the last page, please.
12 I agree it's unusual to have a report in English translated.
13 Q. And there we get, as I already put to you, paragraph 36:
14 "The general impression. Colonel Popovic was speaking from a
15 prepared script, quoted the Geneva Conventions by rote, ... he was very
16 sensitive on the subject what he did with prisoners who stepped out of
17 line, refusing to give any more explanation than ... they were dealt with
18 in accordance with the Geneva Conventions."
19 Just two other matters that arise from what you were asked, by
20 Mr. Krgovic largely. Can I just go back to the part ... this was at
21 page 46.
22 Mr. Krgovic asked you a question about -- that the:
23 "... that the war waged ... was far from an" [sic] "organised
24 combat between uniformed armies serving recognised governments and
25 honouring the rules of war. Isn't that correct?"
1 And you said:
2 "No. I think it was quite clear, and not just in northern Bosnia
3 but in each of the various areas where I worked, that there were
4 political and military structures in place."
5 I just want to clarify so that the Chamber understands your
6 experience, Mr. McLeod: For how long were you a monitor based in the
7 former Yugoslavia for ECMM?
8 A. So I spent a year with ECMM. I spent the following year working
9 for the international conference working for Thorvald Stoltenberg's
10 deputies as a political advisor. So I was there for two years in total.
11 Q. And can you just give, again, the Trial Chamber a rough area - a
12 rough area -- a rough idea of which -- which areas you worked?
13 A. So with ECMM I worked out of Zagreb, so in Croatia looking at
14 the -- the -- the issues between the Croatian government and the Krajina
15 Serbs, so in the UNPAs. I went into northern Bosnia, and so -- met the
16 Serbs in northern Bosnian and went to Manjaca and Trnopolje. And I also
17 worked in Central Bosnia and so saw what was happening between the Croats
18 and the Muslims in the Vitez-Zenica area. And the second year was
19 negotiations between the Croatian government and the Krajina Serbs.
20 Q. Thank you. Last topic. You were shown this document which was
21 dated the 21st of August. Perhaps we better have it up again.
22 MS. KORNER: P609.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MR. KRGOVIC: P607.
25 MS. KORNER: Oh, 607. Sorry.
1 Q. This purports to be a directive emanating from Mr. Zupljanin
2 dated the 21st of August and referring back to an order issued by the
3 Ministry of the Interior about giving protection to people who were then
4 going to be released from these camps.
5 You had a visit the day before when Mr. Zupljanin was present to
6 Banja Luka. Did he -- if he had mentioned to you that he was -- had
7 issued such an order in respect of people who were going to be released,
8 would that be something that you would have recorded?
9 A. Probably.
10 Q. And you went back on the 24th of August when Mr. Bulic was
11 present for a short time. If he had said to you, We, the police, are
12 going to be protecting anybody who's being released, is that something
13 you would have recorded?
14 A. Again, probably.
15 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Just one last question.
19 Do you recall whether the ECMM had made any determination as to
20 the nature of the armed conflicts at the time you were there?
21 A. Yes, Your Honour. So there was clearly armed conflict going on
22 between the armies of Croatia and Bosanska Krajina, if you like. And --
23 and that -- that -- that was quite clearly going on, and that carried on
24 intermittently for the next 18 months or so. And there was an ethnic
25 cleansing going on, and ethnic cleansing was taking place particularly
1 from northern Bosnia expelling Muslims and from Croatia expelling Serbs.
2 And to an extent it was also taking place, but to a far less extent, from
3 the -- the -- the Bosnian-controlled areas in Central Bosnia and Bihac
4 and so on. And ethnic cleansing was not an armed conflict; it was a
5 one-way -- fundamentally, a one-way street on -- being carried out by --
6 by particularly two of the parties and, to a limited extent, by the third
7 party as well.
8 So I would -- clearly there was -- there was a -- a fairly
9 conventional war going on between different parties, and all of them
10 ended up fighting each other at different points in Bosnia. And that had
11 characteristics which were pretty clear. And you could talk to the
12 military commanders and invite them to stop and then organise a
13 cease-fire and then invite them to withdraw their troops and weaponry and
14 so on, and I was engaged in -- in inspecting Croatian tanks, for example,
15 that had been withdrawn from the contact line in Croatia to find out
16 where they were, and I wrote down the -- the numbers of the tanks, which
17 was quite amusing. So -- so that type of warfare was going on, and then
18 there was ethnic cleansing, which was completely different.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: If I understand you correctly, you're saying that
20 the armed conflict that took part between the Croatian forces and the
21 Serb forces was an international armed conflict; is that correct?
22 A. Between -- well, at the time, to call it an international armed
23 conflict would have been a -- quite a difficult thing to do from some
24 government's point of view, because they didn't want to recognise some of
25 the people who were taking part in the armed conflict as nations. And so
1 the people in Bosanska Krajina would have argued very strongly that they
2 were a nation, and so their conflict with Croatia was an international
3 conflict. The people within the -- the -- the -- and, again,
4 Bosanska Krajina, which stretched into Croatia, as one party, would
5 define it, but not in terms of another party defining it.
6 So, again, the conflict between the Serbs and the Croats within
7 Croatia between the UNPA and the Croatian-controlled parts of Croatia:
8 From one party's point of view that was an international conflict, and
9 from the other party's point of view it was not.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And --
11 A. But regular forces fighting each other as you would recognise
12 regular forces fighting each other.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Which brings me back to my original question:
14 Did the ECMM make any determination of the conflicts in terms of whether
15 it was international or internal at the time you were there, if you
17 A. Um ...
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry. The alternative
19 would be that the ECMM simply left the question open. So I'm interested
20 to know whether actually any determination was made with the ECMM as to
21 what kind of international -- armed conflict was going on.
22 A. Certainly. Certainly, Your Honour. So ECMM was acutely aware of
23 the fact that there was -- of the recognition issue. And as I've
24 described, I think, even in testimony here, if not in the previous
25 Trial Chamber, we had to very careful not to provide recognition of
1 Bosanska Krajina as a -- as a nation, because it hadn't been recognised
2 by -- by governments. And, therefore, yes, ECMM was acutely aware of the
3 issue of providing recognition of nationhood, when the member governments
4 hadn't actually recognised any of the factions who were claiming nation
5 status as nations.
6 So, yes, we were pretty aware of whether this was an
7 international conflict or internal conflict.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: How are we to interpret your answer?
9 A. So as far as the fighting that was taking place within northern
10 Bosnia was concerned, that was not an international conflict. The
11 fighting that was taking place between the Serbs in northern Bosnia and
12 the Croats on the other side of the river in Croatia, that would be an
13 international conflict.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
15 MS. KORNER: May I just -- I think there are two matters that
16 need to be clarified arising from that.
17 Further Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
18 Q. Mr. McLeod, you've said in your answer to Judge Harhoff:
19 "... ethnic cleansing was not an armed conflict; it was a
20 one-way -- fundamentally, a one-way street ... being carried out
21 by particularly two of the parties and, to a limited extent, by the
22 third ..."
23 Who do you mean by the first two, and who -- and which was the
25 A. I'm sorry, I thought I -- I thought I mentioned that in my
1 answer. So, the Serbs and the Croats went in for fairly extensive ethnic
2 cleansing, and I -- I saw, I went and had a look in Central Bosnia to
3 see, to a more limited extent, the Bosnian, as well, had cleared a
4 Croatian village, for example. So each of the parties did it. But by
5 far the greatest amount was carried out by the Serbs and then the Croats
6 and then the Bosnians.
7 Q. And finally, you mentioned the Bosanska Krajina government. Just
8 to be clear, are you referring there to the -- which hadn't obtained
9 recognition, are you referring there to the government headed by
10 Mr. Karadzic?
11 A. Yes, so --
12 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... or to a ore localised one?
13 A. No. The -- the -- so the Serb Republic was the -- was the
14 overarching state, with its headquarters in Pale. And then a --
15 Bosanska Krajina - and, again, I'm not the expert, but my friends here
16 would know it inside out - was the -- I would understand the region of
17 northern Bosnia which would then stretch also into Croatia, controlled by
18 the Serbs.
19 Q. Right. So your talk -- I see what you mean. You're actually
20 talking about what's come to be known as the RSK, the part in Croatia
21 between Croatia and the border; is that right? Because there are two
23 A. The -- the -- I've actually talked about both, just to be
25 Q. The -- okay. The two Krajinas is what you're talking about?
1 A. In different answers I referred to both of them, and we'd have to
2 go back and unpick the answers. If -- My Lords, if you're not clear,
3 then please come back and quiz me one more time so that you can be clear.
4 Q. All right.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm satisfied.
6 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you.
7 Sorry, Your Honour, I just thought we'd better clarify the first
9 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I believe your application is still
10 alive, but for continuity, can you repeat it?
11 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours, can I move into evidence the
12 whole 92 ter package, please.
13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the 92 ter package will be given
15 the prefix of Exhibit 1727. The internal memo regarding the subsequent
16 documents of the package will be filed subsequently. Thank you.
17 JUDGE HALL: I'm -- please correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Korner,
18 but there was a portion of this package that was to have been separately
19 placed under seal?
20 MS. KORNER: Yeah, Your Honour, any of the documents -- would it
21 be simpler if we simply identify to the Registry the documents which need
22 to be under seal? It's effectively all the reports, bar the CSCE one,
23 need to be under seal.
24 JUDGE HALL: Again, whatever works. If the Registry ...
25 MS. KORNER: We'll identify that to the Registry.
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.
2 Mr. McLeod, we thank you for your assistance to the Tribunal once
3 more, and you are now released as a witness. We wish you a safe journey
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE HALL: Before we take the adjournment for the day, there
8 are a number of matters which were raised by the Prosecution at the
9 beginning of today's sitting to which the Trial Chamber would wish to
11 The first is -- and my recollection is that counsel for the
12 Prosecution, Ms. Korner, had suggested that a date be fixed for a
13 65 ter meeting. In the view of the Chamber, the more efficient way of
14 dealing with the several outstanding issues which would have been
15 canvassed at such a meeting would be to conduct a Status Conference, and
16 such a conference will be held during the week, having regard to the
17 schedule of witnesses as intimated by Ms. Korner, the week beginning the
18 6th of December. That is according to the convenience of the progress of
19 witnesses. And the parties at that time should be prepared to discuss
20 the scheduling of the remainder of the case.
21 The second matter deals with Witness 228. The Chamber does not
22 see a need to postpone hearing Witness 228, given the likelihood that the
23 situation which the OTP alluded to may occur, that is, that there may not
24 be witnesses to call during the last week before the recess.
25 Furthermore, it is impossible at this moment to predict exactly when this
1 witness will be testifying in the Karadzic case. The Trial Chamber is,
2 therefore, hesitant to rely on the possibility of having this witness
3 testify in this case while here to testify in Karadzic. If the witness
4 is unfit to travel, then the Office of the Prosecution may, of course,
5 move to hear the witness via videolink.
6 The third matter is the commencement of proceedings after the
7 winter recess. And having heard the representations of counsel for the
8 Defence, the Chamber reiterates that proceedings will resume on
9 10th of January, 2011. But the Chamber requests the Registry to organise
10 an extra session on that day, that is, Monday the 10th. On the
11 11th of January, the case will be as scheduled. But on the
12 12th of January, the Wednesday, the hearing will resume at 3.00 in the
13 afternoon. Thereafter, the case will be adjourned for the Thursday and
14 Friday and, depending on the progress of the Prosecution's case, would
15 resume on Monday, the 17th of January.
16 The final issue is Witness 223 being heard during Witness 224's
17 videolink. The Chamber has considered the application made in relation
18 to ST-223, who is reported to be unwell and unable to travel to The Hague
19 to testify on the date proposed by the Prosecution. Taking into account
20 the requirement under the Statute to ensure that the proceedings are fair
21 and expeditious and also for reasons of judicial economy, the Chamber is
22 satisfied, in the exceptional circumstances of 223, that it would be in
23 the interests of justice to permit the witness to testify over the
24 previously-ordered video-conference link to be established from 223's
25 country of residence for the preceding witness, 224. This is provided
1 that the necessary arrangements can be made in time by the Registry.
2 So we take the adjournment to --
3 MS. KORNER: May I just ask about the Mladic notebook witnesses.
4 I mean, that was one of the -- and it is, in a sense, one of the more
5 urgent. Because if they are to come, to be dealt with, then one of them
6 certainly needs to be seen in his own country next week.
7 JUDGE HALL: In terms of the work that the Chamber has set out
8 for itself to do for the remainder of the day, that is one of the items,
9 and we trust that we would be able to rule on that tomorrow morning.
10 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of
13 November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.