Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17776

 1                           Thursday, 25 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Good morning to everyone.

12             May we have the appearances, please.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  On behalf of the

14     Prosecution, Alex Demirdjian, with Tom Hannis, Belinda Pidwell, and

15     Crispian Smith.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

17     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Claire Plumb appearing for Stanisic Defence.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:

19             Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic,

20     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             Before we begin, the -- we remind -- we note that the Defence had

23     been asked for expedited responses in respect of a motion to add six

24     documents in respect of a witness, and those -- such responses not being

25     forthcoming, unless there is some response from the Defence, the -- the

Page 17777

 1     Chamber will proceed on the basis that no such responses would be made.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, at this point I'm not able to give my

 3     comments because I will have to consult with the -- with Mr. O'Sullivan

 4     about that particular motion.  And if I can give the -- our response

 5     by -- by -- after the first session.  Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Krgovic, you --

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  I just want to confirm there is a submitted joint

 9     response today.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thanks --

11             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             Sorry.

14                           [Technical difficulty]

15             JUDGE HALL:  With respect to the application by the Prosecution

16     in the 17th motion for protective measures filed on the

17     29th of October, 2010, the Chamber grants the motion as prayed in respect

18     of Witnesses 48, 88, 145, 153, and -- and denies the motion, without

19     prejudice, in respect of Witnesses 32 and 36.

20             Are there any other procedural or housekeeping matters before we

21     call the next witness?

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  There's a couple of matters

23     relating to the very next witness.  But prior to that, I'll leave to

24     Ms. Pidwell to deal with some scheduling matters.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Good morning, Your Honours.

Page 17778

 1             Just to follow up from your rulings yesterday in relation to the

 2     scheduling matters.  Firstly, I can advise that the witness that

 3     Your Honours kindly acceded to our request to add him on to the videolink

 4     for next week that's already in place, when we went back to the witness,

 5     he has recovered from his influenza or whatever it was that was causing

 6     him problems and has now confirmed he is able to travel.  So he will be

 7     here live next week.  So I've -- we've already notified the Defence and

 8     the Registry, but we'll put that on the record for Your Honours.

 9             The second matter is in relation to Witness 228 who you ruled on

10     yesterday.  I would ask for your indulgence to hear me on this matter to

11     reconsider your ruling to bring him in, in December.  With the greatest

12     respect to Ms. Korner, she didn't provide you with the complete picture

13     of this witness's individual circumstances and the reasons why we are

14     wanting to coordinate his testimony with that of another trial.  And if I

15     may ask to go into private session, I'm able to provide you with some

16     further details on that issue.

17                           [Private session]

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11 Pages 17779-17781 redacted. Private session.















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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

17     you.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, do we already have a submission on

20     that call-back, or were you still considering it?

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, Your Honour.  I orally -- officially asked in

22     the transcript, orally.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You already -- so it's --

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yeah.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's with us then.

Page 17783

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Just one additional factor in respect of that.  If

 2     the witness is required -- that witness is required to attend, he was,

 3     from my recollection, a subpoenaed witness the last time he attended.

 4     And, accordingly, we would need some time to make those arrangements.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  We would consider this in the course of -- of the

 6     day and get back to the parties.

 7             Is there anything else before the witness comes in?

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, it's in relation to the witness itself,

 9     Your Honours.

10             Two brief matters, I hope.

11             First of all, when I met with the witness yesterday, he indicated

12     for the first time that he wanted some protective measures.  Could we

13     shortly go into private session just so that I can deal with this matter.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

15                           [Private session]

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Page 17784

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16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18     Thanks.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

20             In relation to the second topic, Your Honours, it's in relation

21     to the time we have this morning with this witness.  In your oral

22     decision on the 11th of November, 2010, you granted us 30 minutes to call

23     him as a viva voce witness.  And you ordered that the examination be

24     limited to the facts pertaining to the enforcement of the curfew.  As

25     you'll remember, we have conflicting evidence in relation to the

Page 17785

 1     enforcement of the curfew in the municipality of Doboj.

 2             Now, having had the benefit of meeting the witness yesterday, I

 3     would like to alert Your Honours that there are a number of topics that

 4     he can deal with in support of his evidence relating to the curfew.  He

 5     was, like I said, of some leadership position at the time, and he can

 6     give you a lot of background information to support what he is going to

 7     say in relation to the curfew.

 8             As I have mentioned to you earlier, he knew members of the

 9     Crisis Staff, and that will give you the basis upon which he is giving

10     this evidence.

11             Additionally, as I indicated in the e-mail, the slow pace with

12     which the witness provides his answers might be difficult to complete his

13     evidence in 30 minutes.  If I can put it this way:  Interpreters will

14     have no problems following him.  So 30 minutes will be a little, just a

15     little, too tight.

16             An additional thing that you may want to consider is that -- in

17     relation to the next witness who is starting right after him, I have

18     indications from Mr. Rindi that he may less time than the one hour that

19     he's been granted, so we may even be in a position to finish both

20     witnesses today.

21             I'm not going to take more time than needed on this issue.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So how much more than the 30 minutes are you asking?

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  An additional 30 minutes.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I see.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But, Mr. Demirdjian, we stay within the limits of

Page 17786

 1     the curfew, even if you go a little bit beyond contextual-wise.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We are focussing absolutely on the curfew.  I

 3     will have to deal with his background - who he was and what position he

 4     was --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Of course.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN: -- who did he deal with, but we're sticking with

 7     the curfew.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  So we should go into closed session for the

 9     examination and further re-examination of the witness.

10                           [Closed session]

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11 Pages 17787-17792 redacted. Closed session.















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25                           [Open session]

Page 17794

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 4             Before I give the floor to the Prosecution, I would just deliver

 5     the Chamber's Ruling on the protective measures in public, and the Ruling

 6     is that the Chamber has granted that protective measures of a pseudonym

 7     and face distortion for this witness, who, throughout these proceedings,

 8     will be referred to as ST-041.

 9             And the second thing I would like to do before I give the floor

10     to the Prosecution is to ask the Registrar to assign an exhibit number to

11     the pseudonym sheet that was signed by the witness.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The pseudonym sheet for

13     Witness ST-041 shall be given Exhibit P01728, Your Honours.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15             And I give the floor to the Prosecution.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

18        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Before I start, I would like to remind you that it is not a sign

21     of disrespect, but I will referring to you as "Witness" or as your

22     pseudonym, "ST-041."

23             You already indicated to Their Honours your religion, your name,

24     and your date of birth.  I would like to ask you, first of all, about the

25     military service.

Page 17795

 1             Did you complete your military service?

 2        A.   I did.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and which year was that in?

 4        A.   In 1966 and 1967.  In Nis and in Vranje, in the

 5     Republic of Serbia.

 6        Q.   You also indicated your position to the Judges.  I will not be

 7     referring to it; however, is it correct to say that within the

 8     organisation you were working in, you were a senior officer?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And when did you start working for that organisation?

11        A.   In 1978.

12        Q.   And when did you stop working?

13        A.   On the 30th of April, 1992.

14        Q.   Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how it came that the

15     30th of April was the last day of your work?

16        A.   Yes, of course.

17             The 30th of April, 1992, was the last working day in the month of

18     April, before a holiday that's celebrated there, and that's the

19     1st of May.

20             The next day was a public holiday, so we did not work.  And the

21     2nd of May was also a public holiday.  And between the night of the 2nd

22     and the 3rd of May, Doboj was taken over by the Serbian forces.

23        Q.   Now, how did it come that you stopped working?  Can you tell us

24     specifically how that came about?

25        A.   In early May, I was called to the garrison, which is two

Page 17796

 1     kilometres to the west in the suburbs.  Major Krkljes [phoen] handed me

 2     my resignation and he said that this was at my request.

 3        Q.   You told us in early May.  Do you have a specific date?

 4        A.   I think it was on the 8th of May.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Now, you told us that between the night of the

 6     2nd and the 3rd of May Doboj was taken over by the Serb forces, and you

 7     just informed the Trial Chamber that you were basically dismissed.

 8             Did this type of dismissal happen to other persons in Doboj?

 9        A.   Yes.  It was rather widespread.  Definitely after the 3rd of May.

10     Except for the work obligation which was introduced in some companies, in

11     certain companies in town.  But other than that, everybody who was a

12     non-Serb was dismissed.

13        Q.   Very well.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  There's one matter I want to deal with in

15     private session, please, Your Honours.

16                           [Private session]

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Witness, as Judge Harhoff indicated to you, we will be dealing

10     specifically with the issue of the curfew.

11             Just prior to getting to this matter, I would like you to inform

12     the Trial Chamber whether you knew of the creation of a Serb Crisis Staff

13     in the municipality of Doboj.

14        A.   I didn't know that before the war.  Later I found out, and it was

15     rather soon, in the early days of the war.  And an acquaintance of mine,

16     a military officer, told me on the street that there was a Crisis Staff.

17     He mentioned some people whom I know personally as being members of the

18     Crisis Staff.  He said that the Crisis Staff was in charge of everything

19     that was going on, and he had -- commented on why they had handed over

20     authority to the civilians, that is, the Crisis Staff, and he made a link

21     between that and the events that were to ensue.

22        Q.   And, sir, could you tell us who is this military officer?

23        A.   His name was Milovan Stankovic, who, at that time, held the rank

24     of major.

25        Q.   And had you known Mr. Stankovic for some time?

Page 17799

 1        A.   Yes.  I had known him since 1978 or 1979.

 2        Q.   And --

 3        A.   At that time he was not a major yet.  But it's the same person.

 4        Q.   And to your knowledge what was his role in the municipality?

 5        A.   At one point major Stankovic was transferred to Sarajevo where he

 6     served in the command of the army.  I am not in a position to be more

 7     precise as to his position or responsibilities; I don't want to make a

 8     mistake.  And he came to Doboj in the Autumn of 1991 and he said that he

 9     was supposed to help out the garrison commander whose name was

10     Cazim Hadzic.  At that time of war, he was commander of the defence of

11     the city.  But only for a short while.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... very well.

13        A.   After a few weeks, he was replaced by Colonel Slavko Lisica, who

14     was a commander of the Operations Group and the main commander of the

15     Serb army in that area.  And then Stankovic no longer played a role, or

16     at least I'm not aware of any role of his, in either the civilian or the

17     military structures.

18        Q.   Very well.  Now, sir, it is an admitted fact in the case that

19     shortly after the takeover a curfew was put in place in the municipality

20     of Doboj.

21             Now, first of all, were you aware of this?

22        A.   Yes.  I heard about that on the local radio and also directly on

23     the street.  There would be vehicles going up and down the streets with

24     large speakers, informing the population that a curfew had been imposed

25     and everything else that had to do with it.

Page 17800

 1        Q.   When did you first hear of the curfew?

 2        A.   Immediately on the 3rd of May in the morning hours.

 3        Q.   And what were the hours during which this curfew was imposed?

 4        A.   It is easier for me to say when the -- what the hours were

 5     without a curfew.  We were freely -- free to move from 8.00 till

 6     11.00 a.m., which means three hours out of 24.  And we used that time to

 7     provide basic supplies such as water.  And there was no electricity, so

 8     we went out to -- in search of water, food, and so on during these three

 9     hours.

10        Q.   You told us that there would be vehicles going up and down the

11     streets with large speakers.  What kind of vehicles were these, and to

12     which organisation did they belong to, if you know?

13        A.   They were both police vehicles and some civilian vehicles that

14     were requisitioned.  It is well known that all civilian vehicles were

15     requisitioned there and they were used for various purposes and in

16     various ways.  I cannot be precise as to which vehicle circulated on

17     which day.  There were smaller military vehicles, armoured personnel

18     carriers, police vehicles.  A small bus was used to arrest those who were

19     found on the street and take them to the police.  Some people said that

20     they had been fined and then released.  Others said that they had been

21     detained and placed in a camp and so on.

22        Q.   Have you witnessed, yourself, such arrests?

23        A.   Yes.  The building -- from the building where I lived, you had --

24     had a good view of a piece of land where people cultivated vegetables and

25     fruits.  And I saw that on one occasion people who were digging in those

Page 17801

 1     small gardens were scooped up.

 2        Q.   And when you say "scooped up," who was arresting these people?

 3        A.   The police, local police.

 4        Q.   And when you say "the police," do you mean the military or the

 5     civilian police?

 6        A.   No.  The military police and the civilian police differed in

 7     their clothing and in the vehicles they used.

 8             The military police, who were soldiers, wore olive-drab or

 9     camouflage uniforms; whereas, the police wore blue uniforms with -- some

10     of them were also of the camouflage type, so-called war uniforms.  The

11     police had white belts.  What I mean -- and that's the military police.

12     Whereas the civilian police had just regular belts.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... okay.  And you told us that

14     the local police was arresting people.  It is still not clear in your

15     answer which of the two was arresting the people who were not obeying by

16     the curfew.

17        A.   I'm convinced - and everybody down there knows that - that it was

18     the local civilian police.  I have no other technical term.  To me, as a

19     soldier, there is the military police and the civilian police on the

20     other hand.  And their function should be the protection of the citizens

21     and their property, but that's not what they did, unfortunately.

22        Q.   Did you know, in Doboj, who was the head of the police?  The

23     civilian police.

24        A.   I did know, although I didn't know the man personally.  His name

25     was Andrija Bjelosevic.

Page 17802

 1        Q.   And in relation to the curfew, could you tell the Trial Chamber

 2     who did it apply to?

 3        A.   In principle, it applied to everybody, according to the --

 4     according to the proclamation.  But in practice it only applied to

 5     non-Serbs.  And I can say with full responsibility, and it was obvious

 6     too, that mostly non-Serbs were being taken in.

 7        Q.   Now, you were saying that it was obvious that mostly non-Serbs

 8     were being taken in.  Did you see Serbs walking in the streets?

 9        A.   Yes.  I saw them daily.  For which reasons, I don't know.

10     Probably because things had to function.  I did see them.

11        Q.   Just to clarify for the Trial Chamber, where -- in which part of

12     Doboj did you live?

13        A.   I lived in the western part of town, near the centre.  I had a

14     view of an open area in the direction of the garrison.

15        Q.   And when you say that it was near the centre, is there a building

16     of some importance in the vicinity of your house?

17        A.   Near me there was a secondary school, so-called secondary school

18     centre, which was about 150 metres away as the crow flies.  And many

19     people were taken there, and from there they were taken to third

20     countries.  But that wasn't your question; I apologise.

21        Q.   In relation to Doboj, we have -- there's a main street.  And it

22     is a fact that on this main street there was a court, there was a police

23     station; how far was your apartment from this location?

24        A.   About 200 to 300 metres to the west.  This may not be very

25     precise.

Page 17803

 1        Q.   That's fine.  Now in relation to the length of the imposition of

 2     this curfew, I'd like to ask you exactly how you knew about it.

 3             It is admitted in this case that hundreds of Muslims and Croats

 4     were detained in Doboj after the takeover.  And I would like to ask you,

 5     did this occur to you as well?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't understand

 7     what kind of question this is.  Is this a direct question or is the

 8     Prosecutor putting forward his own position from the Prosecution case so

 9     far?

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It's just for Your Honours to understand how the

11     witness was able to observe the length of the imposition of the curfew.

12     He may be able to inform you when he was in freedom and when he was not

13     in freedom.  So for him to be able to say that to you, he should also be

14     able to say whether he was detained or not.

15             JUDGE HALL:  I see no problem with the question, Mr. Cvijetic.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] But then it should simply be put

17     as my learned friend has just said it.  Just put a direct question to the

18     witness.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.

20        Q.   Sir, were you detained for a period of time?

21        A.   Yes.  I was taken to the police station twice but I was released

22     again.

23             Once, I was arrested by the military police and taken to the

24     garrison where I spent a little short of four days and three nights.  And

25     owing to some friends and acquaintances, among others - I can give you a

Page 17804

 1     name, if necessary; that's not a problem - I was released and could go

 2     home.

 3        Q.   Very well.  I didn't want to get into the details of your

 4     detention, sir.  It's just for the Trial Chamber to understand you were

 5     detained for four days.

 6             And could you tell us during which month that was?

 7        A.   It was in May.

 8        Q.   And in relation to the rest of the year, was there any other

 9     period where you were detained?

10        A.   I was neither detained nor arrested in subsequent periods.

11        Q.   Very well.  After your release, did you notice whether the curfew

12     was still in place?

13        A.   Yes, absolutely.

14        Q.   And to your knowledge, until which part of the year was this

15     curfew in place?

16        A.   I cannot be very precise, but I believe that it was in place at

17     least until the end of the year.  I'm not sure, though, whether the

18     duration of the curfew continued to be 21 hours a day or whether it was

19     changed later, shortened.  But there was a curfew.

20        Q.   And until when did you remain in Doboj?

21        A.   My last day in Doboj was the 25th of October, 1993.

22        Q.   Now, sir, you mentioned to us earlier about Mr. Stankovic

23     mentioning to you the issue of the Crisis Staff.  Could you tell the

24     Trial Chamber, to your knowledge, which authorities imposed this curfew?

25        A.   I spoke about that with Stankovic, and the reason was our

Page 17805

 1     application for help and how we could be assisted, as citizens that were

 2     not arrested, that our houses shouldn't be searched.  And he said that

 3     the authority was -- had been handed over to the civilians, the

 4     Crisis Staff, too soon, and that he personally could do very little or

 5     nothing to help anybody who was in need of help.

 6             I considered, at the time, that the Crisis Staff was an illegal

 7     body, because after the multi-party elections, authorities were

 8     established; in other words, the assembly, the president.  And at other

 9     levels, there was a division of power among the parties.  But then,

10     suddenly, this body called "Crisis Staff" sprung up, and I knew it was

11     that headed the Crisis Staff.  Or at least I know some names; others I

12     don't.

13        Q.   There's one matter you mentioned to the Trial Chamber earlier was

14     in front of your apartment there was this little area where people could

15     plant, I think it was produce or vegetables.  How were these being grown?

16     Did they have access to water, for example?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to

19     come back to what the Bench said, that we should not go too far from the

20     topic discussed, and that the topic was the curfew.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  This very topic is related to the imposition of

22     the curfew.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, if I may add that I don't -- I don't

24     think your previous answer [sic] was answered at all.  I think the

25     question was: Who was the authority that imposed the curfew.  And -- and

Page 17806

 1     the question was not answered.  But that is -- the precise reason was

 2     that it was suggested that it was -- in your question it was -- the

 3     Crisis Staff was mentioned.  And now the witness has explained us

 4     everything about the Crisis Staff except giving us the answer to the

 5     question, which is, I believe, relevant to the adjudicated fact.  And now

 6     we are moving into water-pumps ...

 7             I really have -- I'm sorry.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's fine.  It could be dealt in

 9     cross-examination, but I'll ask the question directly.

10        Q.   Sir, you heard the intervention of the Defence.  Could you tell

11     us, if you know, which authority imposed the curfew?

12        A.   I don't know who it was specifically.  I heard about the curfew,

13     I saw its effects, and I felt it -- felt them.  But who sat down and

14     decided to impose it, I really don't know.

15        Q.   One last question before the break to wrap up on this topic.

16             You told us that you heard about the curfew over the radio.  Did

17     the radio announce where did this curfew come from, on whose authority?

18        A.   I think it was the Crisis Staff who made that decision with the

19     leadership of the police.  Because on the radio they said that a curfew

20     was imposed that lasted from, till; and there were people -- or, rather,

21     those vehicles on the streets proclaiming the same thing.  But as far as

22     the decision to do that was concerned, I believe the Crisis Staff was

23     mentioned in that context, as well as the police and the chief of police.

24     It is difficult to repeat verbatim that proclamation after so much time.

25     Those were ugly things, and you try to forget them.

Page 17807

 1        Q.   Very well.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I have about two, three minutes after the break,

 3     Your Honours, and I'll be finished with my examination.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We return in 20 minutes.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  If I may, before you complete your

11     cross-examination [sic], Mr. Demirdjian, with respect to a matter that

12     was raised by the Prosecution at the beginning of today's sitting,

13     inviting the Chamber to reconsider the Ruling that it gave yesterday with

14     regard to Witness 228, the Chamber is considering it.  It isn't in a

15     position, because of the paucity of information, to rule definitively at

16     this point, but it is considering the -- acceding to the request,

17     provided that the witness is available to attend on

18     Monday, the 10th of January, to give evidence in this trial.

19             The consequential decision arising out of that is that the

20     evidence of Brown would be deferred to the week following.  But, as I

21     said, that is not a definitive Ruling at this stage; that is the -- where

22     the Chamber is at this point.  Thank you.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And before I continue,

24     may I introduce two new members of the team who have joined us in the

25     courtroom:  Mr. Francesco Rindi, who will be taking the next witness; and

Page 17808

 1     Ms. Indah Susanti, who will be replacing Mr. Smith next week.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 3             Please continue, Mr. Demirdjian.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Sir, I have one last question to ask you about the authority over

 6     the curfew.  You mentioned to us prior to the break - and that's at

 7     page 20, line 16 - that Mr. Stankovic had commented on the -- why the

 8     authority was handed over to the civilians and that he made a link

 9     between that and the events that were to ensue.

10             Can you inform the Trial Chamber, what was that link that he

11     made?

12        A.   I'm not quite sure that I understand completely what you're

13     asking me.  But concerning the relationship between myself and

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted).

16     We did not carry out the same type of work, but we met frequently,

17     exchanged information.  We understood each other, and we cooperated on

18     certain issues.

19             Now, as to the question how I knew Major Stankovic, and it was

20     contact, that's it.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir, let me stop you for a

22     second.  Just a second, please.  Let me make sure you understood my

23     question.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  But before we continue, the witness mentioned at

25     line 8, page 30:  "... my work ..." well, I will not say the

Page 17809

 1     organisation.  If we could redact that part.  The organisation in which

 2     he was working.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 5        Q.   Let me rephrase the question.

 6             You told us, prior to the break, that Mr. Stankovic spoke to you

 7     and he made a comment about handing over the authority to the civilians.

 8     And you said: "... that is, the Crisis Staff ..."

 9             And you said he made a link between that, the handing over of the

10     authority, and events that were to ensue.  And I wanted to ask you:  What

11     is that link that he made?

12        A.   Yes, I understand your question.

13             Concerning the safety of citizens of the town and the persecution

14     and the harassment that they suffered, the looting, and all these others,

15     negative phenomena, that were happening there, he told me that in that

16     context that they had handed over authority to the civilians too early.

17     By "them," he meant the army.  And that in that respect he was helpless

18     in terms of being able to act to provide the protection to those who

19     needed it, and, that is, the civilians.

20             I know that he himself tried to provide help on -- in many

21     individual cases.

22        Q.   Very well.  And when you said that "he meant the army," did he

23     tell you, in terms of the authority to the civilians, who specifically

24     this was handed to?

25        A.   I assume, judging from this conversation, that that referred to

Page 17810

 1     the military authority that was transferred to the so-called civilian

 2     sector, that is to say, the Crisis Staff, the civilian police, and other

 3     civilian authorities that were functioning at the time in the territory

 4     where I was.

 5        Q.   Very well.  The last topic I want to go back to is the issue of

 6     the water-pump that was across from your apartment, sir.

 7             Did people go get water between the hours that you told us,

 8     between 8.00 a.m. and 11.00 a.m.?

 9        A.   Yes.  That was the only pump in the neighbourhood where I lived

10     which supplied water.  Before that, it had been used by people who were

11     involved in gardening, for watering the plants and sowing and seedlings;

12     however, during the war we used it exclusively for drinking water but

13     also for other needs of the population, such as hygiene and things of

14     that nature.

15             At one point in time, the police banned the usage of this water

16     regardless of the time-period allowed for movement, which was three hours

17     a day, between 8.00 and 11.00 in the morning.  So during that period we

18     were prohibited from taking water from that pump.  It was even locked

19     with some chains or things like that, and we were driven away.

20        Q.   This is what I wanted to ask you specifically.  You were saying

21     irrespective of the time.  Did you see anybody being arrested during the

22     hours of 8.00 a.m. and 11.00 a.m.?

23        A.   No, I didn't see any arrests, especially since movement was

24     virtually limited at any time, and it was dangerous.  I wouldn't like to

25     discuss this issue.  For example, I sustained some injuries, but I

Page 17811

 1     thought it was better to try and -- and cope with that, rather than

 2     venture out and expose one's self to danger.  But as I said, I didn't see

 3     any arrests outside my flat expect for the occasion which I mentioned in

 4     my previous statement when a bus that was used to arrest people who were

 5     found on the street or close to streets, at -- in any public place

 6     whatsoever, during the curfew those people would be arrested and driven

 7     away, I suppose, to the police.  Some of them returned, saying that they

 8     were released after having paid a fine.

 9        Q.   And one last question on this topic.  Do you know of anyone who

10     was specifically arrested?  Do you know specifically someone who was

11     arrested for violating the curfew?  Do you have examples?

12        A.   I believe that it refers to the people who were doing the

13     gardening which is next to the street.  And that is when this bus and the

14     police came and arrested those people and took them away.

15             I remember a sort of a paradox.  A man called Radovan - and

16     judging by his name we assumed he was a Serb, and we were surprised that

17     he was arrested, being a Serb.  Eventually we found out that he was a

18     Croat, that he was originally from Herzegovina, and that there they have

19     names that resemble those of Serbs.

20        Q.   Very well.  Before I conclude, if you could just tell the

21     Trial Chamber, you told us you left in October 1993, could you just tell

22     us why you left?

23        A.   I left, first and foremost, for the sake of my own safety and the

24     safety of my family.  Starting from the beginning of May 1992 until the

25     25th of October, 1993, non-Serbs were leaving on a daily basis.  They

Page 17812

 1     were collected in front of the so-called secondary school centre and then

 2     were transported by buses from there.  I heard that they crossed via

 3     Gradiska to Croatia and then onwards to third countries.

 4             The fact is that nowadays the people are scattered all over the

 5     place from Australia, where my sister lives, to Holland where I lived.

 6     The fact is that out of my six siblings only one of them still lives down

 7     there.  And believe me, there are thousands of families like that, and I

 8     would just call it ethnic cleansing.  I don't know how else to call it

 9     because -- I can't say that it has been accomplished 100 per cent, but

10     let's say 90 per cent.  And I don't think that any return and

11     normalisation of the situation is possible.

12             I do apologise.  I hope that was the question that you put to me.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That's all I ask.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I put a few

16     questions to this witness, can we move to private session for a moment,

17     please?  Or a closed session, as suggested by my learned friend

18     Mr. Zecevic.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Why closed?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, private will do.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17813











11 Pages 17813-17815 redacted. Private session.















Page 17816

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 9     you.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, immediately after the occupation of the town, the

12     Serbian municipality of Doboj was established, and Drago Ljubicic was

13     appointed president.  The president of the Executive Committee was

14     Borislav Paravac; and Major Stankovic, Milovan Stankovic, was appointed

15     defence commander of the town.  Is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   The previously-formed Crisis Staff declared a state of war,

18     imposed curfew, ordered mobilisation of the entire Serbian population,

19     and appointed commissioners for all the companies and institutions of

20     authority in the town; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   So you will, therefore, agree with me that there was no dilemma

23     whatsoever; that it was the Crisis Staff who imposed the curfew?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.  They were the highest-ranking organ.

25        Q.   Finish your answer.

Page 17817

 1        A.   I think that was the highest organ in a socio-political community

 2     that organised life at all levels.

 3        Q.   I asked you to finish this because you obviously anticipated my

 4     next question.

 5             Very well.  Now I'm going to show you now Exhibit 1D260.

 6        Q.   Could you please be so kind as to take a look at this document

 7     before I ask a question, and it is related to what we discussed a minute

 8     ago.

 9        A.   Yes, I see it.  But, of course, I have never had this document in

10     my hands, and I don't see who signed it.

11        Q.   I assumed as much, but you can see that it was exactly the

12     Crisis Staff who prescribed measures relating to the violation of the

13     curfew, that the -- banned any public gatherings, and that certain

14     punishments and -- were envisaged.  You can see that?

15        A.   Yes.  That is exactly what I said.

16        Q.   Yes, I was going to ask you about that.

17             Yes, that is what I wanted to ask you exactly with relations to

18     your previous answer.  Do you agree that the Crisis Staff was the main

19     organ in charge of the functioning of the municipality in that period?

20        A.   I think it was.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I apologise.  Could Mr. Cvijetic let us know

22     where in this document the curfew is mentioned.  I tried to glance at it

23     very quickly, and I cannot see it.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Under item 1 it is said that

25     movement is being restricted and that no people should be outside during

Page 17818

 1     curfew, and there's reference to the Crisis Staff decision.

 2             So the curfew is mentioned under item 1, and we have the

 3     testimony of this witness to the effect that it was the Crisis Staff who

 4     imposed the curfew.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I don't see the word "curfew."  I don't see the

 6     imposition or any timings.

 7             There's an issue of moving and loitering in the streets.  No

 8     specific time.  And it doesn't really mention the curfew.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree.  I'm sorry.  I agree.

10     But let's clarify this with the witness.

11        Q.   Sir, there is mention here specifically the time that you spoke

12     about, so moving or staying in the streets is banned other than during

13     the period allowed for procuring supplies.

14             Do you agree with that?

15        A.   One can see that this decision was taken by the Serbian

16     municipality of Doboj in accordance with the rules of public law and

17     order which allows for certain bans to be imposed.

18             I still claim that the movement was restricted throughout the

19     day, except during the period from 8.00 until 11.00 in the morning.  I

20     don't see who signed this, but this is irrelevant to me, because I

21     personally felt the consequences.

22        Q.   Yes, that's clear.  But in item 1 it is said that anyone found on

23     the streets outside that time-period, which is allowed for provisions to

24     be obtained, would be punishable.  Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 17819

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry,

 2     there's no relevance in this document to a time-period.  There's no

 3     reference - sorry - to a time-period.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  I'm wondering whether, Mr. Cvijetic, there is a

 5     companion document that this is cross referenced with that you would wish

 6     to ... for whatever purposes you're showing this to the witness.  Because

 7     in terms of the question you've asked so far, Article 1.1 speaks for

 8     itself.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I showed him this

10     document as part of his testimony and his claim that the main organ which

11     took care of the functioning of life in Doboj municipality was the

12     Crisis Staff.  Furthermore, his claim that the Crisis Staff prescribed

13     the curfew, introduced mobilisation, was the basis; and we see from the

14     heading that the Crisis Staff also envisaged punishment for moving

15     outside of the time designated for shopping.  That was his testimony.

16             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic, I

17     think you -- I think you've missed the point that Mr. Demirdjian made and

18     which -- which, as we understand it, is that this document, particularly

19     Article 1.1 to which you are referring the witness, is all well and good

20     in itself but on the face of it, it doesn't say anything about the times

21     of a curfew.  And therein lies the difficulty.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  The second thing, Your Honour, in terms of how

23     the evidence is being referred to, Mr. Cvijetic is saying that:

24     "Furthermore, his claim that the Crisis Staff prescribed the curfew."

25     During his evidence in-chief, he involved the Crisis Staff and the

Page 17820

 1     police.  So in terms of misstating the evidence, I think we should be

 2     careful about that.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the witness a clear

 4     question.

 5        Q.   Sir, item 1, which you see, and you can read what is says, does

 6     it relate to what you testified about?  Does it relate to the time which

 7     was meant for shopping and the time which wasn't meant for that purpose?

 8        A.   I can't be absolutely certain that this document talks about the

 9     introduction of the curfew in the field.

10             This document, which has the principles in it, it is the highest

11     organ that designates how one should carry itself in such circumstances.

12     However, it doesn't list the time to which the ban applies; it just says

13     that fines will be imposed.  Now who applied this decision, I believe,

14     should be the person who should be asked.  Somebody elaborated on this,

15     and I believe it would be logical that the chief of police would adhere

16     to this, that the commander of town would adhere to this, and that other

17     important organs would participate in implementing this decision by the

18     highest socio-political organ in a certain community, or in a certain

19     territory.

20             That's my answer.  I can't tell you exactly what the author

21     meant.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you allow.

23             Mr. Witness, one simple question.  You told us you heard about a

24     curfew on the radio.  Is this what is said under 1?  Is what you heard on

25     the radio?

Page 17821

 1             Under point 1 of Article 1.  Is that what you heard on the radio?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  Not

 3     verbatim.  The radio read out orders, read out messages on their

 4     loud-speakers.  They talked about movement, they talked to loitering,

 5     they talked about bans and fines; and this is something general.  Now

 6     what we had was something more specific - naming the time, from and to.

 7     Movement after 11.00 in the morning and movement before 8.00 in the

 8     morning, that is to say, movement was allowed for a total of three hours,

 9     between 8.00 and 11.00.

10             I can draw my own conclusion based on this.  In my opinion, this

11     is just a draft that was made by somebody to have order in town.  As for

12     who implemented this and based on whose further decisions, I really don't

13     know.  It is logical that the police and the army would be involved as

14     well.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   All right.  Now that you've mentioned the army, would you agree

17     with me conclusion that in that period, or in a part of that period, the

18     town was under military administration, practically?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How do you explain that?

21        A.   After the Serbian army entered town in the night between the

22     2nd and the 3rd and until a week or two - I'm not certain - later, the

23     military administration functioned on its own rules.  I didn't know until

24     when they functioned and when the so-called civilian organs took over

25     power.  I found out about that, and I explained that in my earlier

Page 17822

 1     testimony how.  It was by accident that I heard of this from

 2     Mr. Stankovic.

 3        Q.   You said that Major Stankovic was replaced by Colonel Lisica; is

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know about some measures that he, as commander, took and

 7     certain limitations or restrictions that he imposed as town commander and

 8     as a military officer?

 9        A.   Not specifically.  I wasn't in such a position.  But I know that

10     on the radio he declared that the Serbian People were poorer than other

11     people.  He had inflammatory statements; said that people had the right

12     to take things from other people's houses.  And my interpretation

13     was - and I apologise to you and the Prosecution and the Court - I

14     interpreted this as an invitation to looting, because there was state of

15     war.  And I apologise to the Court for moving on.  Despite this, there

16     was no war in Doboj.  Proof of that is the last issue of the local paper

17     which was then called "Glas Komune," and the title was: Doboj Liberated

18     Without a Single Bullet Fired.  So I was shocked --

19        Q.   I'll ask you specifically about this.  Do you know that

20     Colonel Lisica mobilized people in the territory of Doboj municipality?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know that he even mobilized the civilian police and

23     dispatched the chief of police to the front?

24        A.   No.  But I know that based on the system of subordination, in a

25     certain territory where there's combat, or where combat is expected, as a

Page 17823

 1     principle, and based on the law, the civilian police is resubordinated to

 2     a higher military command.  I believe that's how things are in all

 3     countries.

 4             As for the mobilisation, I saw how it was done in the JNA centre

 5     and at the garrison when I was detained.  Now whether he ordered or

 6     somebody else, I don't know.

 7        Q.   All right.  You again anticipated one of my questions.  Since you

 8     were doing the work that you were doing, you know about this very well.

 9             Now, tell me, was Doboj shelled throughout that time, or a part

10     of the time?

11        A.   Not initially.  It happened in the middle of the year that a

12     shell or two would fall.  For a while we were surprised that shells

13     arrived from the west, that is, from the north-west, and we were certain

14     that this was not a shell from the enemy territory but an own shell.

15        Q.   I'll ask you specifically --

16        A.   Yes, that's fine.

17        Q.   How many victims were there as a result of this shelling in

18     Doboj?  Please answer.

19        A.   There were casualties, but I don't know the number.  It wasn't a

20     large number; I know that for a fact, because, as a rule, there was

21     always an alert given to the civilians.  It was a caricature,

22     Your Honours --

23        Q.   If you could just answer my specifically.

24        A.   You would go down to the basement and shelling would start but by

25     the other side.  To be specific, in my own neighbourhood I saw two or

Page 17824

 1     three shells land.  One landed in front of my entrance and it broke a

 2     window.  Nobody was hurt.  And another shell landed in a yard and again

 3     nobody hurt.  And I know that one shell landed near the SUP, and I

 4     believe somebody was injured there.  A man who was on his way back from

 5     hospital got hit.  It was quite a memorable situation; that's why I

 6     remembered it.

 7        Q.   Was a memorial raised to the victims of this shelling?  Do you

 8     know that?

 9        A.   There is a memorial in front of the SUP building in Doboj, but I

10     think that this is a memorial to fallen policemen, primarily policemen,

11     at the front, who were killed at the front where there was fighting.

12        Q.   All right.

13        A.   There is a memorial in Doboj.  Actually there are two: one from

14     the First World War and the second one from the Second World War.

15        Q.   If you don't know it, I'll just move on.

16             Furthermore, you talked about a shortage of electricity.  This

17     power cut, did it relate to the entire municipality?  Was everybody out

18     of power?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Sir, I'll put a claim to you which largely relies upon your own

21     testimony.

22             The curfew, as was prescribed, related to all civilians in Doboj;

23     is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   During the curfew - and I'm asking whether you know - people who

Page 17825

 1     worked in certain services which had to function were able to move, but

 2     they had to have a licence; did you know about that?

 3        A.   Yes.  I was in that position myself.

 4        Q.   So you had a permit to move during the curfew?

 5        A.   Yes.  Because you had to go to work and you had to go home.  And

 6     you had to take the shortest route.

 7        Q.   I didn't ask you that by accident, because we have testimony from

 8     others that other non-Serbs who worked in specific services had such

 9     permits and were allowed to move around.

10        A.   I am not a Serb.  I told you what I was.  And I was under work

11     obligation in the (redacted).  I had a decision and I had an

12     approval from the responsible organ of the Secretariat for

13     National Defence and from the president of the court saying that I was

14     able to go to work.

15        Q.   Was it the case with other services and with other employees who

16     worked in these services who had to go to work?

17        A.   Everybody had a decision where I worked.  And where I worked, the

18     registrar of the court issues these -- issued these permits.  As for

19     other places, I don't know.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

21     questions for this witness.

22        Q.   Sir, thank you for answering my questions.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             And is it still the position that there are no questions from ...

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We don't have a question for

Page 17826

 1     this witness.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 3             Re-examination?

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

 6        Q.   Sir -- if we could have that document back on the screen that

 7     Mr. Cvijetic showed you, 1D260, exhibit.  Exhibit 1D260.  Is it still

 8     there?  Okay.

 9             Can you see the date on that document?

10        A.   If that's this document, then the date is 28 May 1992.

11        Q.   Very well.  At page 21 today, earlier, you answered one of my

12     questions and you said that you heard the curfew -- you heard of the

13     curfew immediately on the 3rd of May, 1992.  Is that the position?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And, in relation to the curfew which this document does not

16     specifically deal with, Mr. Cvijetic put to you that the Crisis Staff

17     issued the decision relating to the curfew.

18             Can you remind us, who saw to it that it was enforced?

19        A.   In my answer to Defence counsel, I said that based on this

20     document I can't say that it says Crisis Staff, and I can't see a

21     signature.  Therefore, this bare document tells me of general measures

22     passed by somebody.  But the curfew was being enforced by the police.

23     Some kind of an agricultural commune can't be enforcing the curfew.

24        Q.   Very well.  Now, at page 42 just now, Mr. Cvijetic put to you

25     that Doboj was under "military administration."

Page 17827

 1             Could you tell the Trial Chamber which forces were regulating the

 2     life in the town?

 3        A.   Between the 2nd and 3rd of May, as day broke, I saw - and a

 4     colleague of mine visited me at home, we had been colleagues until

 5     then - the army, which they called the Serbian army, had white lilies on

 6     a red surface which they wore.  And that was when I found out that the

 7     Serbian army had taken control of town, and I found out that Stankovic

 8     was the town commander, and so on.  And everything that happened later.

 9        Q.   Now, you were asked about the subordination of the police to the

10     army and you said that when combat was expected, the police was

11     subordinated to the army.  And then Mr. Cvijetic asked you whether you

12     knew that the chief of police was mobilised.

13             Now, do you know anything about the relationship between the

14     chief of the police and the army?

15        A.   I gave the only answer I could, both to you and to him.

16             As I'm aware of the regulations as they were before the war, the

17     police was always subordinated to a higher military command in the

18     territory where certain combat is happening.  Now, whether that was what

19     happened in this specific case, I don't know.  I don't know that.  I also

20     don't know whether the chief was mobilized.  I know that he became chief

21     before the war.  And before him, another man had been chief, who was

22     replaced right at the very beginning of the war.  And we commented by

23     saying that he was not good enough for the new authorities and for the

24     new regime that had power and that that was the reason that he was

25     replaced.  Whether he was mobilized, whether he was one the carrying out

Page 17828

 1     the mobilisation, whether he was implementing this decision that the

 2     Defence talked about, or to what extent, I just know that the curfew was

 3     in place from, until, and I know what practice was.  And practice was not

 4     what it says here.  I personally would have signed this, in the situation

 5     that was.  But, in practice, in wartime, things are not implemented that

 6     way; otherwise there wouldn't have been persecutions, arrests, et cetera.

 7        Q.   You told us that the chief of police was quickly replaced.  Who

 8     is this man you're referring to?

 9        A.   I referred to the chief of police who was chief before the war,

10     before the 3rd of May, 1992.  He was replaced by one Andrija Bjelosevic,

11     a man I don't know.  I don't even think that he hails from the town in

12     which I was born and where I lived.

13        Q.   Very well.  You were also asked about shelling and casualties.

14     Now, how many shells in total fell on the town of Doboj during your time

15     there?  To your knowledge.

16        A.   Oh, that was a short question and my answer will be even shorter.

17             I can't really reflect the situation as it was.  If I say that

18     there were ten shells, it will be wrong.  If I say 50, it will be wrong

19     again.  A number of shells did fall while I was there, but I didn't count

20     them.  When there was an attack, the children counted the shells.  But

21     Doboj wasn't shelled daily; and when it was shelled, it wasn't shelled

22     massively.

23             When the first shell fell somewhere, we would hear it or see it,

24     and then we said, Wait till the third one falls and after the third one

25     there will be no more, then you can move freely about.  And you can

Page 17829

 1     believe me that's how it was.

 2             It is true that Doboj is not a devastated city.  It is

 3     well preserved.  True it is somewhat poorer than it was, but to a larger

 4     extent it is preserved.  There have been shells, but I haven't counted

 5     them so I cannot give a precise answer.

 6        Q.   That's fine, sir.  Could you tell us, in which part of the year

 7     did the -- did most of these shells fall?  You were there during 1992 and

 8     1993.

 9        A.   In the spring and summer of 1993, there were more shells,

10     somewhat more.  And now I remember a case.  I saw from my balcony when I

11     was looking toward the garrison there was a tanker truck passing by and I

12     know that it was hit on that road.  But, generally speaking, in the

13     spring and summer of 1993 [Realtime transcript read in error "1992"],

14     there was more shelling.  Actually, it was more returning fire.  Don't

15     misunderstand me.  More than in 1992, when it was really, very rare.

16        Q.   Very well.  And the last topic that you were asked about was

17     about the laissez-passer that you were given by the authorities.

18             First of all, in -- you said you worked (redacted).  How

19     many other non-Serbs were working there?

20        A.   Nobody.

21        Q.   To your knowledge, how many non-Serbs were awarded such passes?

22        A.   Where I worked, there were only Serbs and me.  And I'm not -- I'm

23     not a Serb.  So they couldn't get any laissez-passers or any documents.

24     I got one.  I was a local.  People knew me --

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir --

Page 17830

 1        A.   -- and they chose me for reasons known to them.

 2        Q.   My question was:  Generally speaking, in the town of Doboj, do

 3     you know how passes were given to non-Serbs, if any?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness answered.

 6     When asked by me, he said he couldn't answer.  I asked him the same

 7     question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there was a work

 9     obligation --

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let's let the witness finish, because he was

11     answering.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15             As for other institutions and firms, I don't know whether they

16     got laissez-passers; that's what you asked about.  But I know that they

17     went there to work, because they were under work obligation.  And people

18     went to work to the timber-processing plant, to the food-processing

19     plant, to the machinery plant, but they went there in an organised

20     fashion.  Whether or not they had laissez-passers is something about

21     which I can only speculate, and I don't want to do that.

22        Q.   And just to clarify the matter.  You're saying that people were

23     going these various places; my question specifically refers to non-Serbs.

24     Were these people, (redacted)

25     (redacted) were these people non-Serbs?

Page 17831

 1        A.   Yes.  They were ordered to go there.  Ordered by the authorities.

 2     Because the manufacturing process had to be kept up, work had to

 3     continue.  And after a short while they were also expelled from the

 4     territory like everybody else.

 5        Q.   And one last question on this issue, sir.  When were you given

 6     this laissez-passer?  Which part of the year?

 7        A.   Now I have to calculate.  I left Doboj on the 25th of October,

 8     and I had worked for 11 months, which means that it would have been

 9     Autumn 1992.  It may have been early October or late December, I think.

10        Q.   And perhaps you can explain to the Judges how it is that you got

11     this laissez-passer, who gave you this laissez-passer.

12        A.   I was at home, as usual, because movement was prohibited.  We

13     couldn't visit neighbours.  We couldn't assemble for any reason.  And

14     they came for me, that is, the then-commander's driver came, and the

15     commander was Stankovic at the time, and he took me to the JNA centre,

16     which was about 150 to 200 metres from my house.  There he introduced me

17     to two other men and said, We'll have you work here with this man.

18     That's what they had decided.  Who exactly, I don't know.  But I think

19     that it was Stankovic who had personally helped me to perform my work

20     obligation there.

21             What had I done to deserve that?  It may sound absurd, but

22     nothing.  But it was important to me that in this way I may have been

23     better protected than those who had no documents at all.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I noticed that at page 50,

Page 17832

 1     line 23, I mentioned the location where the witness worked.  Being the

 2     only non-Serb there, he might be easily identified.  If we could redact

 3     that, please.

 4             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... yes.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just a second.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Sir, at -- sorry.

11             I have one clarification for the transcript as well.  At page 50,

12     line 18, the witness said:  "... generally speaking, in the spring and

13     summer" and here it reads "of 1992, there was more shelling."

14             I think that we heard something else.

15             Sir, could you clarify that for us, if the year is correct?

16        A.   No.  I said 1993.  I may have misspoken, in which case I

17     apologise.  But it was in 1993.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

21                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have another correction to the

23     transcript.  It's, again, about a date.  Page 52, line 14, reads that --

24     to the Prosecutor's question when he got the pass allowing him to move

25     about, we see December 1992.

Page 17833

 1        Q.   But I believe you said something else.  Could you please repeat?

 2        A.   Yes.  I said that I left on the 25th of October, 1993.  That's

 3     when I left Doboj.

 4        Q.   Just say when you got it.

 5        A.   And I went 11 months back, which then would be this latter half

 6     of September or early October 1992.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's when I received the decision

10     that I had -- was under work obligation and I got a workplace --

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Yes, you've already said as much.  It was just the date that

13     mattered to me.

14             JUDGE HALL:  It's just on the time that we take the break, so

15     we'd rise now and return in 20 minutes.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, please.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, before -- or, Mr. Demirdjian, before

19     we rise, this is perhaps something you should take care of during the

20     break.  We are reminded that Ms. Pidwell said this morning about -- it's

21     about ST-228.  Ms. Pidwell said this morning that ST-228 should, for a

22     reason that we don't know of, testify first in Karadzic.  Then she said

23     there would then have to be a day's break, at least, while his transcript

24     was considered by the Defence.

25             So that would mean -- if this is correct, that would mean that he

Page 17834

 1     couldn't testify in this case on Monday.  And that would mean also that

 2     if he could -- if he would testify on -- in Karadzic on Monday and then

 3     leave one day in between, we would be on the -- on the Wednesday

 4     afternoon.  We have more or less two sessions on the Wednesday afternoon.

 5     That wouldn't be enough.  There is a real problem there.  But we don't

 6     see why -- why it would be necessary to have him in Karadzic first.  And

 7     we would insist, if we would consider the -- the OTP's application to

 8     have him in the first week of January, to have him on Monday.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I will -- I don't know the precise answer to that.

10     I will check, Your Honour, and get back to you.  I know that was the

11     proposal, to have him testify in Karadzic on Monday and testify in this

12     case on Wednesday.  Mr. Brown to start on Monday the 17th.  And maybe one

13     or two other witnesses somewhere in there depending on your decision on

14     another pending application.  But I will check and try to report back to

15     you before the end of the day.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You have to realize -- OTP has to realize that

17     having this witness on Wednesday, there would probably be a problem and

18     he would have to stay over for the -- until Monday.

19             MR. HANNIS:  I will advise her and get back to you.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because on Wednesday we would be unable to start

21     until 3.00.  So there would only be a little more than two sessions left

22     for Wednesday.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And we don't sit on the Thursday and Friday, as

24     you know.

25             JUDGE HALL:  And, of course, the other aspect of this is that if

Page 17835

 1     the sequence on which the OTP insists, as in the passage read out by

 2     Judge Delvoie, how -- what -- how certain can you be in your

 3     representations - and I say "you"; not you personally but the OTP in its

 4     representations - to this Chamber of that witness coming in Karadzic on

 5     the Monday?

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Correct, Your Honours.  And maybe the simplest

 7     solution is:  We have him first and Karadzic follows us.  That's

 8     something I'll discuss and get back to you about.  Thank you.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, is the witness released?

10             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... no.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No?  Okay.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  The Bench has some questions of the witness, after

18     which we have a short oral ruling to deliver, then we will hear from

19     counsel as to whether they have a report on the matter we raised just

20     before the break.  And we will take the adjournment for the day, because

21     it is obvious that we couldn't complete the next witness before, so we

22     would begin his testimony tomorrow.

23                           Questioned by the Court:

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, about the laissez-passer you got.  I

25     understand you got that somewhere in the Autumn of 1992, which means,

Page 17836

 1     first of all, that you were under the curfew obligation from May to

 2     Autumn 1992; that's right?  Without the laissez-passer.  Do you confirm

 3     that?

 4        A.   That is correct, Your Honour.  But I was obliged to respect it

 5     even later.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, of course.  Now, that's my -- my second

 7     question.  While under curfew on the one hand but with a laissez-passer

 8     for your work obligation -- I should first have confirmed that your work

 9     obligation was something that had nothing to do with your previous

10     functions from which you were dismissed.  That was what -- what was

11     called in the -- in the region "work obligation," and that could be

12     anything; right?  I don't -- I don't need any other specification.

13             Okay.  Now, this laissez-passer --

14        A.   That is correct.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This laissez-passer, did that -- did it allow you

16     to move around freely within -- within the hours that you normally could

17     not without laissez-passer, or was it only -- did it only permit you to

18     go to work and come back and nothing else?

19        A.   Your Honours, I understood that to mean that I could go to work

20     and come back home; no more than that.  Which means from 7.00 a.m. till

21     3.00 p.m. I could go to work without obstacles and go back from work.

22     That's how I understood it, and that's how I behaved.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now something else.  You told us you lived at --

24     well, practically in the centre of Doboj.  Was that a -- where you live,

25     was that a mixed neighbourhood, with people of mixed ethnicity?

Page 17837

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Now, then, during the curfew, let's say

 3     before the Autumn of 1992, to keep it simple, as from 11.00 in the

 4     morning you were in your apartment and you couldn't move; right?  You

 5     could -- you could see what happened in the street because you had -- you

 6     could see that; right?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... did you --

 9     did you see -- move people around while you were inside and could not go

10     out?

11        A.   In principle, very few people moved about.  And I knew many

12     people because -- and many people knew me because I was born and raised

13     there; however, I said [as interpreted] many unknown persons in civilian

14     clothes and also in uniforms.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, I'm referring to, let's say, normal people

16     from your neighbourhood.  You had -- you had Serb neighbours?  I

17     don't ...

18        A.   I must say that -- and I said as much in my statement, that the

19     curfew was mostly honoured by non-Serbs.  There were cases of neighbours

20     who declared that they were Serbs and who could move about freely and

21     return, but the others were not allowed to go out and -- on the street,

22     if they were not Serbs.  I can claim that with full responsibility.

23             In my building, there were 18 apartments.  Out of these 18, ten

24     or 11 families were non-Serbs.  And they were all in their apartments.

25     Some had to leave their apartments earlier, some later.

Page 17838

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm more interested in the people that did not

 2     stay in their apartment during the curfew.

 3             So the -- the -- the other -- you said ten families were -- were

 4     of Muslim ethnicity and the others were of Serb ethnicity, I suppose; did

 5     they go out freely?  Did you see -- did you see them go out?

 6        A.   If I may, most Serbs who were healthy and of age had already been

 7     engaged by the police, the military, or by the firms where they worked.

 8     Or -- their families, children, wives, if the wives were not employed,

 9     freely moved about in their neighbourhood, stayed outside, played.  Even

10     my girl, who was four at the time, played with them during the time when

11     there was no curfew.  So they could move about, but the others could not.

12     Believe me.  I don't know -- I don't know what else I can ...

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  I have three questions

15     for you.

16             And the first question is, actually, a question that will follow

17     up on the questions just put to you by Judge Delvoie.  Because,

18     Mr. Witness, it is still not quite clear - to me at least - just how this

19     matter of the curfew was organised.  You are saying that it was

20     discriminatory in the sense that although it applied to everyone,

21     formally speaking, it was practiced in such a manner as to allow Serbs to

22     move around freely during all hours of the day, while non-Serbs were

23     ordered to stay inside after 11.00 in the morning, and, if they were seen

24     on the streets after 11.00 and before 8.00 next morning, they would be

25     arrested.

Page 17839

 1             You also told us that the people who had to go to work in order

 2     to maintain vital functions of the town, that is to say, the -- the

 3     factories that you mentioned earlier on, that for all the workers there,

 4     they would be given laissez-passers which would allow them, actually, to

 5     go to work and come back again, and that in those instances many

 6     laissez-passers were given to non-Serbs.

 7             Can I ask you if this is correctly understood?

 8        A.   Your Honour, I said of myself for -- that I had received one;

 9     whereas the others who were under work obligation, I can't say that they

10     received any.  But it's a fact that they went to do their work

11     obligation.

12             I can give you an example.  When I tried to check how my mother

13     was doing, who was living two kilometres to the south of the centre of

14     town, and that was during the time when movement was allowed, I was

15     stopped at the police check-point, and my wife, who accompanied me, was

16     told that I shouldn't go down that way again because I would be arrested.

17     And I never tried to do so again, neither during the time of free

18     movement nor during the curfew.

19             I only received the approval to go to work and come back.  We

20     were, literally speaking, in house arrest.  Whether the other employees

21     got passes, I cannot say.

22             Now I remember a detail though.  In front of the police building

23     in the centre of town, there was a small kiosk, and a policeman was

24     sitting there who would give permission to somebody who had some business

25     to do, such as go to pharmacy to get some medication, which was only a

Page 17840

 1     few hundred metres away.  He would get a special card with his personal

 2     information, and with that card he would then -- that person would go

 3     there, do what he had to do fast, and return soon.

 4             And as for all the other people who were in town, who regulated

 5     their affairs, I don't know.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And this policeman who would give the special

 7     permissions that you just mentioned, would that be required even in the

 8     open hours, between 8.00 and 11.00?

 9        A.   Yes.  My father-in-law had to go to his weekend cottage, which

10     was a few hundred metres away, to take something from that cottage, some

11     books, books that were -- or something, and he got such a permission

12     for -- or, rather, to go there during the time when there -- when you

13     could move about freely.  They called it prevention.

14             At that moment, nobody could know for sure whether this or that

15     house was mine or somebody else's.  So then even during those hours when

16     movement was free, you needed permission to go to a certain place.  And

17     there were controls in place, absolutely.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise for -- for drilling into this, but it

19     is important for the Chamber to understand how things worked in practice,

20     so I'll -- let me put a few more questions to you in relation to this

21     issue about the curfew.

22             Suppose, sir, that you were in your apartment and it would be

23     9.00 in the morning and you wanted to go down and get yourself a pack of

24     cigarettes; would that be possible?  Could you just walk out of your

25     apartment, go down the stairs, enter into the street, and walk over to

Page 17841

 1     whatever the tobacco shop was and get yourself your pack of cigarettes,

 2     and then walk back without being stopped?  Would that be possible?

 3        A.   Yes, in principle.  On one occasion, I did exactly as you

 4     described, only I wanted to buy some fresh meat that I had heard arrived

 5     in the nearby butchers, and I bought some meat.  At that very moment, two

 6     police entered the shop, because the police station was just opposite it,

 7     and I heard them saying, Look at this man -- [microphone not activated].

 8     There are more of them.  And I learned a lesson from them, and I

 9     immediately went home.

10             I was security-conscious at the time, and therefore I tried to

11     stay indoors as much as possible.  For example, when my daughter got ill,

12     I had to see a doctor who was also dismissed from work, although he was a

13     Serb.  But I asked him to come over to a house visit to examine her and

14     give her injections.  But these are the moments when you have to take

15     risks, otherwise it was undesirable.

16             In addition to the police, there were some other formations who

17     belonged, I don't know to whom.  I, as a soldier, could not understand

18     that such formations could exist, because a person holding a certain

19     position carries certain responsibility for that, so I expected this to

20     be at least respected in terms of how it was written.  However, the daily

21     practice in Bosnia-Herzegovina was something else.  And later I heard

22     that this same practice prevailed in the majority of places and towns.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  So, if I understand you correctly, the --

24     during the times of the curfew, the difference between Serbs and

25     non-Serbs was really that, while, on the one hand, the non-Serbs chose to

Page 17842

 1     stay indoors as much as possible, even in the so-called open hours; while

 2     the Serbs simply disregarded it.

 3             Is that your testimony?

 4        A.   This is what I assert.  However, during the time outside curfew

 5     hours, all the chores and businesses were done by women and mainly

 6     elderly women at that.  Men had to behave differently.  They were

 7     expected to keep a low profile.  That is why women tried to use these

 8     three hours to do their shopping and other chores that were necessary for

 9     keeping their households.  And I call this discrimination.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... sir --

11        A.   But that was -- when we looked at this decision, this is

12     something that didn't happen in reality.  In practice, it was completely

13     different.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do I understand you correctly:  If -- my summary

15     of your testimony here is that Serb men and women did not feel that they

16     were obliged to respect the curfew in Doboj in April and May of 1992?

17        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.  Exactly that.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So Serb men and women would leave their houses

19     and go out into the public areas regardless of the curfew, and if they

20     were stopped by a police and checked who they were, then they would be

21     allowed to move on, rather than being arrested.

22             Is that correct?

23        A.   That is correct.  Most of them knew each other, and they went

24     about even without any checking.  We sometimes said that we should try

25     and stick our ID cards on our foreheads.  It's not a nice thing to say,

Page 17843

 1     but that's how it was.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And your testimony is also that Serbs could move

 3     around freely, irrespective of whether they had special laissez-passers.

 4             Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I stand by my statement that they moved

 6     freely, regardless of any restrictions or curfews.  But that applies at

 7     least to my neighbourhood.  There are friends of mine, there are

 8     neighbours of mine, but apparently these restrictions did not apply to

 9     everyone, and that is why I felt discriminated against.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  Let me move to the second

11     question, which relates to the two times that you were arrested yourself.

12     And my question is just this:  Were you arrested during the curfew hours,

13     or were you arrested in the open hours, between 8.00 and 11.00?

14        A.   I was arrested during the period when we were free to move.

15             And this is what happened:  I wanted to check on my mother, who

16     lived two kilometres south of Doboj.  At the exit point of the town, a

17     patrol appeared.  First they beat me, then they put me on a lorry and

18     drove me to the police station.

19             There was an inspector there who received me.  He knew me from

20     before.  And after a brief conversation, he let me go home.  I only asked

21     him to escort me out of the building because there was a so-called

22     gauntlet of police officers, because whenever somebody was brought in,

23     they would just kick them or punch them, and in order to avoid that I

24     asked him to escort him -- to escort me out, and he did.  He was a Serb,

25     but he was a good friend of mine.

Page 17844

 1             But the fact remains that this incident happened during the hours

 2     outside the curfew, when there were open hours.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  I understand.

 4             My third and last question relates to something that you said at

 5     the very beginning of your testimony this morning; namely, the order that

 6     came from what you called the superior command to collect all the weapons

 7     from the TOs and hand those weapons over to the JNA.  And you said that

 8     this took place in the fall of 1991.

 9             And my question to you is this:  Do you know who issued those

10     orders?

11        A.   This order was issued by the Federal Secretariat for

12     National Defence in Belgrade through the highest command of the

13     Territorial Defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was called the

14     Republican Headquarters or Staff of the TO.  The approval for that was

15     given by the then-Presidency, or, rather, the Government of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina.

17             Therefore, we are talking about a decision that is interlinked,

18     and it was implemented 100 per cent in our territory.  I have some

19     information that elsewhere that wasn't the case, but in our territory it

20     was implemented 100 per cent.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you for your answers, sir.  I have no

22     further questions to you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  We thank you, sir, for your testimony before the

24     Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness.  Thank you, sir.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 17845

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, if I may be excused.  Mr. Hannis

 3     will remain in court.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

 5             The -- we are delivering this oral ruling at this stage.

 6             The Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's motion of

 7     5th November, 2010, requesting that the Chamber review its order of

 8     17th of September wherein it held that:  "There is an overriding public

 9     interest" in General Manojlo Milovanovic's evidence being presented

10     orally.  In the motion, the Prosecution requests that the evidence of

11     this witness be presented pursuant to Rule 92 bis.  In addition, the

12     Prosecution requests to add one of its investigators, Mr. Blaszczyk,

13     ST-262, to its witness list as a Rule 92 ter witness.

14             Dealing firstly with the Prosecution's investigator.  The Chamber

15     concludes that this witness should not be added to the Prosecution's

16     witness list.  The witness is not relevant, as he is unable to testify to

17     the core issue of the matter, that is, the authenticity of the

18     Mladic notebooks.  The Chamber notes that he cannot testify to the whole

19     chain of custody.  Moreover, the Chamber recalls, having held on

20     17th of September, that the testimony of another Prosecution investigator

21     concerning the chain of custody of the notebooks was unnecessary to

22     establish the prima facie authenticity of the notebooks.

23             The Chamber does not see any reason to reconsider this opinion in

24     respect of further chain of custody evidence in view of the available

25     evidence of General Milovanovic who the Chamber considers to be able to

Page 17846

 1     provide the best evidence regarding the notebook's authenticity.  It

 2     will, therefore, deny the motion in respect of ST-262.

 3             In respect of General Milovanovic, the Chamber held on the

 4     17th of September that the witness's statement, wherein it is stated that

 5     he had reviewed all the notebooks, was sufficient to establish

 6     prima facie authenticity of the notebooks.  However, in view of the

 7     nature of the witness's anticipated evidence, the Chamber concluded that

 8     there is an overriding public interest in its being presented orally.

 9     Nevertheless, the Chamber stated that it would consider reviewing the

10     situation if "by the time that the witness is due to be called, similar

11     evidence has already been provided to the Tribunal orally and in public

12     in other proceedings."

13             Having now considered General Milovanovic's testimony in the

14     Stanisic and Simatovic case, which, by decision of the

15     23rd of November of the Trial Chamber hearing that case was made public,

16     the Chamber is persuaded that the witness is able to offer evidence on

17     the authenticity of the notebooks as required by Rule 89(C).

18             There is a live challenge by the Defence both to the authenticity

19     and the contents of the notebooks insofar as they relate to the events

20     charged by the Prosecution in this case.  The Chamber recalls holding on

21     the 17th of September that the addition of this witness will "protect the

22     rights of the accused by providing the Defence an opportunity to

23     challenge the authenticity of the notebooks."

24             Therefore, General Milovanovic will be able to provide the

25     Chamber with the best evidence regarding the notebooks' authenticity.

Page 17847

 1     Given the importance of the matter to the present proceedings, the fact

 2     that there is no other available witness who may testify to the

 3     authenticity of the notebooks and the Defence's live challenge, the

 4     Chamber rules that General Milovanovic shall be called viva voce.

 5             General Milovanovic shall testify in the -- as to the

 6     authenticity of the notebooks and - but only to the extent that he has

 7     first-hand knowledge of entries therein that pertain to the time-period

 8     relevant to the present case - the contents of the notebooks.

 9             The Trial Chamber orders the Prosecution to call

10     General Milovanovic before the winter recess and allows three hours for

11     the examination-in-chief.  The Defence is ordered to inform the Chamber

12     of how much time it would request for the cross-examination of this

13     witness.

14             Before we adjourn, do -- does the OTP have a further report on

15     the matter that the Chamber raised before the last break?

16             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             I did speak with Ms. Pidwell, and we can make some arrangements

18     concerning Witness ST-228 that I think will address the Trial Chamber's

19     concerns.  But she requests that you not direct us not to have him

20     testify on a particular day.  That matter we wish to leave in our hands

21     until we have a decision from you about a couple of other pending matters

22     for other witnesses.  I think ST-263 and 264 are witnesses that we're

23     seeking to add.  That may affect the scheduling, and we need to consider

24     all those at the same time.

25             And your discussion at the earliest possible date will be helpful

Page 17848

 1     because we anticipate we may need to request summons for those witnesses,

 2     or subpoenas for those witnesses.  And given the holidays, we would need

 3     to process those earlier rather than later to assure that those witnesses

 4     attend.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Hannis, in respect of Witness 228, the way I

 7     understand this problem is that if the Prosecution wants to hear him in

 8     the first week after the recess, that is to say, in the week of

 9     Monday, the 10th of January, 2011, then the only day on which he can

10     testify would be on Monday, the 10th.

11             And the issue that relates to the other witnesses that you

12     mentioned, they would have to be called the following week, in any case.

13     And I'm not hereby giving any position on whether or not we will allow

14     those witnesses to appear at all, but even if they were to come, they

15     would not -- they would only be called for the following week.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I understand there's a possibility

18     that ST-228 could, for -- hypothetically speaking, appear on

19     Tuesday the 11th.  And we have two sessions on the 12th, as I understand

20     it.  We have Monday, Tuesday, and two sessions on Wednesday.  So there's

21     a possibility that if you grant the pending application for one or more

22     of the other witnesses, that other witness might be better suited to

23     appear on Monday, and ST-228 on Tuesday.

24             I'm only speaking hypothetically.  I don't know all the

25     circumstances.  But this is what I've gleaned from speaking with

Page 17849

 1     Ms. Pidwell ...

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So in respect of 228, the -- the choice is that

 4     if he is to come, then he shall appear here either Monday or Tuesday, the

 5     10th or the 11th of January.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             So our goal is to finish with ST-228 during the week of the 10th,

12     11th, and 12th.  Our other goal is to finish all witnesses that we have

13     left at that time by the end of the following week, January 17th to the

14     21st.

15             And I'm informed that even if you grant our request, if you give

16     us all those additional witnesses we've asked, we will get them all done

17     within those two weeks, starting on January 10th.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] If we take them two at

19     a time.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             So we reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of

24                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.