1 Thursday, 25 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 Good morning to everyone.
12 May we have the appearances, please.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of the
14 Prosecution, Alex Demirdjian, with Tom Hannis, Belinda Pidwell, and
15 Crispian Smith.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
17 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Claire Plumb appearing for Stanisic Defence.
18 MR. KRGOVIC:
19 Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic,
20 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 Before we begin, the -- we remind -- we note that the Defence had
23 been asked for expedited responses in respect of a motion to add six
24 documents in respect of a witness, and those -- such responses not being
25 forthcoming, unless there is some response from the Defence, the -- the
1 Chamber will proceed on the basis that no such responses would be made.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, at this point I'm not able to give my
3 comments because I will have to consult with the -- with Mr. O'Sullivan
4 about that particular motion. And if I can give the -- our response
5 by -- by -- after the first session. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 Mr. Krgovic, you --
8 MR. KRGOVIC: I just want to confirm there is a submitted joint
9 response today.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MR. KRGOVIC: Yeah.
12 JUDGE HALL
14 [Technical difficulty]
15 JUDGE HALL
16 in the 17th motion for protective measures filed on the
17 29th of October, 2010, the Chamber grants the motion as prayed in respect
18 of Witnesses 48, 88, 145, 153, and -- and denies the motion, without
19 prejudice, in respect of Witnesses 32 and 36.
20 Are there any other procedural or housekeeping matters before we
21 call the next witness?
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours. There's a couple of matters
23 relating to the very next witness. But prior to that, I'll leave to
24 Ms. Pidwell to deal with some scheduling matters.
25 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours.
1 Just to follow up from your rulings yesterday in relation to the
2 scheduling matters. Firstly, I can advise that the witness that
3 Your Honours kindly acceded to our request to add him on to the videolink
4 for next week that's already in place, when we went back to the witness,
5 he has recovered from his influenza or whatever it was that was causing
6 him problems and has now confirmed he is able to travel. So he will be
7 here live next week. So I've -- we've already notified the Defence and
8 the Registry, but we'll put that on the record for Your Honours.
9 The second matter is in relation to Witness 228 who you ruled on
10 yesterday. I would ask for your indulgence to hear me on this matter to
11 reconsider your ruling to bring him in, in December. With the greatest
12 respect to Ms. Korner, she didn't provide you with the complete picture
13 of this witness's individual circumstances and the reasons why we are
14 wanting to coordinate his testimony with that of another trial. And if I
15 may ask to go into private session, I'm able to provide you with some
16 further details on that issue.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 17779-17781 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, do we already have a submission on
20 that call-back, or were you still considering it?
21 MR. KRGOVIC: No, Your Honour. I orally -- officially asked in
22 the transcript, orally.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: You already -- so it's --
24 MR. KRGOVIC: Yeah.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's with us then.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Just one additional factor in respect of that. If
2 the witness is required -- that witness is required to attend, he was,
3 from my recollection, a subpoenaed witness the last time he attended.
4 And, accordingly, we would need some time to make those arrangements.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 day and get back to the parties.
7 Is there anything else before the witness comes in?
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, it's in relation to the witness itself,
9 Your Honours.
10 Two brief matters, I hope.
11 First of all, when I met with the witness yesterday, he indicated
12 for the first time that he wanted some protective measures. Could we
13 shortly go into private session just so that I can deal with this matter.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
20 In relation to the second topic, Your Honours, it's in relation
21 to the time we have this morning with this witness. In your oral
22 decision on the 11th of November, 2010, you granted us 30 minutes to call
23 him as a viva voce witness. And you ordered that the examination be
24 limited to the facts pertaining to the enforcement of the curfew. As
25 you'll remember, we have conflicting evidence in relation to the
1 enforcement of the curfew in the municipality of Doboj
2 Now, having had the benefit of meeting the witness yesterday, I
3 would like to alert Your Honours that there are a number of topics that
4 he can deal with in support of his evidence relating to the curfew. He
5 was, like I said, of some leadership position at the time, and he can
6 give you a lot of background information to support what he is going to
7 say in relation to the curfew.
8 As I have mentioned to you earlier, he knew members of the
9 Crisis Staff, and that will give you the basis upon which he is giving
10 this evidence.
11 Additionally, as I indicated in the e-mail, the slow pace with
12 which the witness provides his answers might be difficult to complete his
13 evidence in 30 minutes. If I can put it this way: Interpreters will
14 have no problems following him. So 30 minutes will be a little, just a
15 little, too tight.
16 An additional thing that you may want to consider is that -- in
17 relation to the next witness who is starting right after him, I have
18 indications from Mr. Rindi that he may less time than the one hour that
19 he's been granted, so we may even be in a position to finish both
20 witnesses today.
21 I'm not going to take more time than needed on this issue.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: An additional 30 minutes.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: But, Mr. Demirdjian, we stay within the limits of
1 the curfew, even if you go a little bit beyond contextual-wise.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We are focussing absolutely on the curfew. I
3 will have to deal with his background - who he was and what position he
4 was --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Of course.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: -- who did he deal with, but we're sticking with
7 the curfew.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 examination and further re-examination of the witness.
10 [Closed session]
11 Pages 17787-17792 redacted. Closed session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 Before I give the floor to the Prosecution, I would just deliver
5 the Chamber's Ruling on the protective measures in public, and the Ruling
6 is that the Chamber has granted that protective measures of a pseudonym
7 and face distortion for this witness, who, throughout these proceedings,
8 will be referred to as ST-041.
9 And the second thing I would like to do before I give the floor
10 to the Prosecution is to ask the Registrar to assign an exhibit number to
11 the pseudonym sheet that was signed by the witness.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The pseudonym sheet for
13 Witness ST-041 shall be given Exhibit P01728, Your Honours. Thank you.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 And I give the floor to the Prosecution.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
18 Q. Good morning, Witness.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Before I start, I would like to remind you that it is not a sign
21 of disrespect, but I will referring to you as "Witness" or as your
22 pseudonym, "ST-041."
23 You already indicated to Their Honours your religion, your name,
24 and your date of birth. I would like to ask you, first of all, about the
25 military service.
1 Did you complete your military service?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and which year was that in?
4 A. In 1966 and 1967. In Nis
5 Republic of Serbia
6 Q. You also indicated your position to the Judges. I will not be
7 referring to it; however, is it correct to say that within the
8 organisation you were working in, you were a senior officer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when did you start working for that organisation?
11 A. In 1978.
12 Q. And when did you stop working?
13 A. On the 30th of April, 1992.
14 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how it came that the
15 30th of April was the last day of your work?
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 The 30th of April, 1992, was the last working day in the month of
18 April, before a holiday that's celebrated there, and that's the
19 1st of May.
20 The next day was a public holiday, so we did not work. And the
21 2nd of May was also a public holiday. And between the night of the 2nd
22 and the 3rd of May, Doboj was taken over by the Serbian forces.
23 Q. Now, how did it come that you stopped working? Can you tell us
24 specifically how that came about?
25 A. In early May, I was called to the garrison, which is two
1 kilometres to the west in the suburbs. Major Krkljes [phoen] handed me
2 my resignation and he said that this was at my request.
3 Q. You told us in early May. Do you have a specific date?
4 A. I think it was on the 8th of May.
5 Q. Very well. Now, you told us that between the night of the
6 2nd and the 3rd of May Doboj was taken over by the Serb forces, and you
7 just informed the Trial Chamber that you were basically dismissed.
8 Did this type of dismissal happen to other persons in Doboj?
9 A. Yes. It was rather widespread. Definitely after the 3rd of May.
10 Except for the work obligation which was introduced in some companies, in
11 certain companies in town. But other than that, everybody who was a
12 non-Serb was dismissed.
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: There's one matter I want to deal with in
15 private session, please, Your Honours.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 17797 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, as Judge Harhoff indicated to you, we will be dealing
10 specifically with the issue of the curfew.
11 Just prior to getting to this matter, I would like you to inform
12 the Trial Chamber whether you knew of the creation of a Serb Crisis Staff
13 in the municipality of Doboj
14 A. I didn't know that before the war. Later I found out, and it was
15 rather soon, in the early days of the war. And an acquaintance of mine,
16 a military officer, told me on the street that there was a Crisis Staff.
17 He mentioned some people whom I know personally as being members of the
18 Crisis Staff. He said that the Crisis Staff was in charge of everything
19 that was going on, and he had -- commented on why they had handed over
20 authority to the civilians, that is, the Crisis Staff, and he made a link
21 between that and the events that were to ensue.
22 Q. And, sir, could you tell us who is this military officer?
23 A. His name was Milovan Stankovic, who, at that time, held the rank
24 of major.
25 Q. And had you known Mr. Stankovic for some time?
1 A. Yes. I had known him since 1978 or 1979.
2 Q. And --
3 A. At that time he was not a major yet. But it's the same person.
4 Q. And to your knowledge what was his role in the municipality?
5 A. At one point major Stankovic was transferred to Sarajevo where he
6 served in the command of the army. I am not in a position to be more
7 precise as to his position or responsibilities; I don't want to make a
8 mistake. And he came to Doboj in the Autumn of 1991 and he said that he
9 was supposed to help out the garrison commander whose name was
10 Cazim Hadzic. At that time of war, he was commander of the defence of
11 the city. But only for a short while.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... very well.
13 A. After a few weeks, he was replaced by Colonel Slavko Lisica, who
14 was a commander of the Operations Group and the main commander of the
15 Serb army in that area. And then Stankovic no longer played a role, or
16 at least I'm not aware of any role of his, in either the civilian or the
17 military structures.
18 Q. Very well. Now, sir, it is an admitted fact in the case that
19 shortly after the takeover a curfew was put in place in the municipality
20 of Doboj.
21 Now, first of all, were you aware of this?
22 A. Yes. I heard about that on the local radio and also directly on
23 the street. There would be vehicles going up and down the streets with
24 large speakers, informing the population that a curfew had been imposed
25 and everything else that had to do with it.
1 Q. When did you first hear of the curfew?
2 A. Immediately on the 3rd of May in the morning hours.
3 Q. And what were the hours during which this curfew was imposed?
4 A. It is easier for me to say when the -- what the hours were
5 without a curfew. We were freely -- free to move from 8.00 till
6 11.00 a.m.
7 provide basic supplies such as water. And there was no electricity, so
8 we went out to -- in search of water, food, and so on during these three
10 Q. You told us that there would be vehicles going up and down the
11 streets with large speakers. What kind of vehicles were these, and to
12 which organisation did they belong to, if you know?
13 A. They were both police vehicles and some civilian vehicles that
14 were requisitioned. It is well known that all civilian vehicles were
15 requisitioned there and they were used for various purposes and in
16 various ways. I cannot be precise as to which vehicle circulated on
17 which day. There were smaller military vehicles, armoured personnel
18 carriers, police vehicles. A small bus was used to arrest those who were
19 found on the street and take them to the police. Some people said that
20 they had been fined and then released. Others said that they had been
21 detained and placed in a camp and so on.
22 Q. Have you witnessed, yourself, such arrests?
23 A. Yes. The building -- from the building where I lived, you had --
24 had a good view of a piece of land where people cultivated vegetables and
25 fruits. And I saw that on one occasion people who were digging in those
1 small gardens were scooped up.
2 Q. And when you say "scooped up," who was arresting these people?
3 A. The police, local police.
4 Q. And when you say "the police," do you mean the military or the
5 civilian police?
6 A. No. The military police and the civilian police differed in
7 their clothing and in the vehicles they used.
8 The military police, who were soldiers, wore olive-drab or
9 camouflage uniforms; whereas, the police wore blue uniforms with -- some
10 of them were also of the camouflage type, so-called war uniforms. The
11 police had white belts. What I mean -- and that's the military police.
12 Whereas the civilian police had just regular belts.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay. And you told us that
14 the local police was arresting people. It is still not clear in your
15 answer which of the two was arresting the people who were not obeying by
16 the curfew.
17 A. I'm convinced - and everybody down there knows that - that it was
18 the local civilian police. I have no other technical term. To me, as a
19 soldier, there is the military police and the civilian police on the
20 other hand. And their function should be the protection of the citizens
21 and their property, but that's not what they did, unfortunately.
22 Q. Did you know, in Doboj, who was the head of the police? The
23 civilian police.
24 A. I did know, although I didn't know the man personally. His name
25 was Andrija Bjelosevic.
1 Q. And in relation to the curfew, could you tell the Trial Chamber
2 who did it apply to?
3 A. In principle, it applied to everybody, according to the --
4 according to the proclamation. But in practice it only applied to
5 non-Serbs. And I can say with full responsibility, and it was obvious
6 too, that mostly non-Serbs were being taken in.
7 Q. Now, you were saying that it was obvious that mostly non-Serbs
8 were being taken in. Did you see Serbs walking in the streets?
9 A. Yes. I saw them daily. For which reasons, I don't know.
10 Probably because things had to function. I did see them.
11 Q. Just to clarify for the Trial Chamber, where -- in which part of
12 Doboj did you live?
13 A. I lived in the western part of town, near the centre. I had a
14 view of an open area in the direction of the garrison.
15 Q. And when you say that it was near the centre, is there a building
16 of some importance in the vicinity of your house?
17 A. Near me there was a secondary school, so-called secondary school
18 centre, which was about 150 metres away as the crow flies. And many
19 people were taken there, and from there they were taken to third
20 countries. But that wasn't your question; I apologise.
21 Q. In relation to Doboj, we have -- there's a main street. And it
22 is a fact that on this main street there was a court, there was a police
23 station; how far was your apartment from this location?
24 A. About 200 to 300 metres to the west. This may not be very
1 Q. That's fine. Now in relation to the length of the imposition of
2 this curfew, I'd like to ask you exactly how you knew about it.
3 It is admitted in this case that hundreds of Muslims and Croats
4 were detained in Doboj after the takeover. And I would like to ask you,
5 did this occur to you as well?
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't understand
7 what kind of question this is. Is this a direct question or is the
8 Prosecutor putting forward his own position from the Prosecution case so
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It's just for Your Honours to understand how the
11 witness was able to observe the length of the imposition of the curfew.
12 He may be able to inform you when he was in freedom and when he was not
13 in freedom. So for him to be able to say that to you, he should also be
14 able to say whether he was detained or not.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] But then it should simply be put
17 as my learned friend has just said it. Just put a direct question to the
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
20 Q. Sir, were you detained for a period of time?
21 A. Yes. I was taken to the police station twice but I was released
23 Once, I was arrested by the military police and taken to the
24 garrison where I spent a little short of four days and three nights. And
25 owing to some friends and acquaintances, among others - I can give you a
1 name, if necessary; that's not a problem - I was released and could go
3 Q. Very well. I didn't want to get into the details of your
4 detention, sir. It's just for the Trial Chamber to understand you were
5 detained for four days.
6 And could you tell us during which month that was?
7 A. It was in May.
8 Q. And in relation to the rest of the year, was there any other
9 period where you were detained?
10 A. I was neither detained nor arrested in subsequent periods.
11 Q. Very well. After your release, did you notice whether the curfew
12 was still in place?
13 A. Yes, absolutely.
14 Q. And to your knowledge, until which part of the year was this
15 curfew in place?
16 A. I cannot be very precise, but I believe that it was in place at
17 least until the end of the year. I'm not sure, though, whether the
18 duration of the curfew continued to be 21 hours a day or whether it was
19 changed later, shortened. But there was a curfew.
20 Q. And until when did you remain in Doboj?
21 A. My last day in Doboj was the 25th of October, 1993.
22 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned to us earlier about Mr. Stankovic
23 mentioning to you the issue of the Crisis Staff. Could you tell the
24 Trial Chamber, to your knowledge, which authorities imposed this curfew?
25 A. I spoke about that with Stankovic, and the reason was our
1 application for help and how we could be assisted, as citizens that were
2 not arrested, that our houses shouldn't be searched. And he said that
3 the authority was -- had been handed over to the civilians, the
4 Crisis Staff, too soon, and that he personally could do very little or
5 nothing to help anybody who was in need of help.
6 I considered, at the time, that the Crisis Staff was an illegal
7 body, because after the multi-party elections, authorities were
8 established; in other words, the assembly, the president. And at other
9 levels, there was a division of power among the parties. But then,
10 suddenly, this body called "Crisis Staff" sprung up, and I knew it was
11 that headed the Crisis Staff. Or at least I know some names; others I
13 Q. There's one matter you mentioned to the Trial Chamber earlier was
14 in front of your apartment there was this little area where people could
15 plant, I think it was produce or vegetables. How were these being grown?
16 Did they have access to water, for example?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to
19 come back to what the Bench said, that we should not go too far from the
20 topic discussed, and that the topic was the curfew.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This very topic is related to the imposition of
22 the curfew.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, if I may add that I don't -- I don't
24 think your previous answer [sic] was answered at all. I think the
25 question was: Who was the authority that imposed the curfew. And -- and
1 the question was not answered. But that is -- the precise reason was
2 that it was suggested that it was -- in your question it was -- the
3 Crisis Staff was mentioned. And now the witness has explained us
4 everything about the Crisis Staff except giving us the answer to the
5 question, which is, I believe, relevant to the adjudicated fact. And now
6 we are moving into water-pumps ...
7 I really have -- I'm sorry.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's fine. It could be dealt in
9 cross-examination, but I'll ask the question directly.
10 Q. Sir, you heard the intervention of the Defence. Could you tell
11 us, if you know, which authority imposed the curfew?
12 A. I don't know who it was specifically. I heard about the curfew,
13 I saw its effects, and I felt it -- felt them. But who sat down and
14 decided to impose it, I really don't know.
15 Q. One last question before the break to wrap up on this topic.
16 You told us that you heard about the curfew over the radio. Did
17 the radio announce where did this curfew come from, on whose authority?
18 A. I think it was the Crisis Staff who made that decision with the
19 leadership of the police. Because on the radio they said that a curfew
20 was imposed that lasted from, till; and there were people -- or, rather,
21 those vehicles on the streets proclaiming the same thing. But as far as
22 the decision to do that was concerned, I believe the Crisis Staff was
23 mentioned in that context, as well as the police and the chief of police.
24 It is difficult to repeat verbatim that proclamation after so much time.
25 Those were ugly things, and you try to forget them.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have about two, three minutes after the break,
3 Your Honours, and I'll be finished with my examination.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL
11 cross-examination [sic], Mr. Demirdjian, with respect to a matter that
12 was raised by the Prosecution at the beginning of today's sitting,
13 inviting the Chamber to reconsider the Ruling that it gave yesterday with
14 regard to Witness 228, the Chamber is considering it. It isn't in a
15 position, because of the paucity of information, to rule definitively at
16 this point, but it is considering the -- acceding to the request,
17 provided that the witness is available to attend on
18 Monday, the 10th of January, to give evidence in this trial.
19 The consequential decision arising out of that is that the
20 evidence of Brown would be deferred to the week following. But, as I
21 said, that is not a definitive Ruling at this stage; that is the -- where
22 the Chamber is at this point. Thank you.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. And before I continue,
24 may I introduce two new members of the team who have joined us in the
25 courtroom: Mr. Francesco Rindi, who will be taking the next witness; and
1 Ms. Indah Susanti, who will be replacing Mr. Smith next week.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Please continue, Mr. Demirdjian.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. Sir, I have one last question to ask you about the authority over
6 the curfew. You mentioned to us prior to the break - and that's at
7 page 20, line 16 - that Mr. Stankovic had commented on the -- why the
8 authority was handed over to the civilians and that he made a link
9 between that and the events that were to ensue.
10 Can you inform the Trial Chamber, what was that link that he
12 A. I'm not quite sure that I understand completely what you're
13 asking me. But concerning the relationship between myself and
16 We did not carry out the same type of work, but we met frequently,
17 exchanged information. We understood each other, and we cooperated on
18 certain issues.
19 Now, as to the question how I knew Major Stankovic, and it was
20 contact, that's it.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, let me stop you for a
22 second. Just a second, please. Let me make sure you understood my
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: But before we continue, the witness mentioned at
25 line 8, page 30: "... my work ..." well, I will not say the
1 organisation. If we could redact that part. The organisation in which
2 he was working.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
5 Q. Let me rephrase the question.
6 You told us, prior to the break, that Mr. Stankovic spoke to you
7 and he made a comment about handing over the authority to the civilians.
8 And you said: "... that is, the Crisis Staff ..."
9 And you said he made a link between that, the handing over of the
10 authority, and events that were to ensue. And I wanted to ask you: What
11 is that link that he made?
12 A. Yes, I understand your question.
13 Concerning the safety of citizens of the town and the persecution
14 and the harassment that they suffered, the looting, and all these others,
15 negative phenomena, that were happening there, he told me that in that
16 context that they had handed over authority to the civilians too early.
17 By "them," he meant the army. And that in that respect he was helpless
18 in terms of being able to act to provide the protection to those who
19 needed it, and, that is, the civilians.
20 I know that he himself tried to provide help on -- in many
21 individual cases.
22 Q. Very well. And when you said that "he meant the army," did he
23 tell you, in terms of the authority to the civilians, who specifically
24 this was handed to?
25 A. I assume, judging from this conversation, that that referred to
1 the military authority that was transferred to the so-called civilian
2 sector, that is to say, the Crisis Staff, the civilian police, and other
3 civilian authorities that were functioning at the time in the territory
4 where I was.
5 Q. Very well. The last topic I want to go back to is the issue of
6 the water-pump that was across from your apartment, sir.
7 Did people go get water between the hours that you told us,
8 between 8.00 a.m.
9 A. Yes. That was the only pump in the neighbourhood where I lived
10 which supplied water. Before that, it had been used by people who were
11 involved in gardening, for watering the plants and sowing and seedlings;
12 however, during the war we used it exclusively for drinking water but
13 also for other needs of the population, such as hygiene and things of
14 that nature.
15 At one point in time, the police banned the usage of this water
16 regardless of the time-period allowed for movement, which was three hours
17 a day, between 8.00 and 11.00 in the morning. So during that period we
18 were prohibited from taking water from that pump. It was even locked
19 with some chains or things like that, and we were driven away.
20 Q. This is what I wanted to ask you specifically. You were saying
21 irrespective of the time. Did you see anybody being arrested during the
22 hours of 8.00 a.m.
23 A. No, I didn't see any arrests, especially since movement was
24 virtually limited at any time, and it was dangerous. I wouldn't like to
25 discuss this issue. For example, I sustained some injuries, but I
1 thought it was better to try and -- and cope with that, rather than
2 venture out and expose one's self to danger. But as I said, I didn't see
3 any arrests outside my flat expect for the occasion which I mentioned in
4 my previous statement when a bus that was used to arrest people who were
5 found on the street or close to streets, at -- in any public place
6 whatsoever, during the curfew those people would be arrested and driven
7 away, I suppose, to the police. Some of them returned, saying that they
8 were released after having paid a fine.
9 Q. And one last question on this topic. Do you know of anyone who
10 was specifically arrested? Do you know specifically someone who was
11 arrested for violating the curfew? Do you have examples?
12 A. I believe that it refers to the people who were doing the
13 gardening which is next to the street. And that is when this bus and the
14 police came and arrested those people and took them away.
15 I remember a sort of a paradox. A man called Radovan - and
16 judging by his name we assumed he was a Serb, and we were surprised that
17 he was arrested, being a Serb. Eventually we found out that he was a
18 Croat, that he was originally from Herzegovina, and that there they have
19 names that resemble those of Serbs.
20 Q. Very well. Before I conclude, if you could just tell the
21 Trial Chamber, you told us you left in October 1993, could you just tell
22 us why you left?
23 A. I left, first and foremost, for the sake of my own safety and the
24 safety of my family. Starting from the beginning of May 1992 until the
25 25th of October, 1993, non-Serbs were leaving on a daily basis. They
1 were collected in front of the so-called secondary school centre and then
2 were transported by buses from there. I heard that they crossed via
3 Gradiska to Croatia
4 The fact is that nowadays the people are scattered all over the
5 place from Australia
6 The fact is that out of my six siblings only one of them still lives down
7 there. And believe me, there are thousands of families like that, and I
8 would just call it ethnic cleansing. I don't know how else to call it
9 because -- I can't say that it has been accomplished 100 per cent, but
10 let's say 90 per cent. And I don't think that any return and
11 normalisation of the situation is possible.
12 I do apologise. I hope that was the question that you put to me.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. That's all I ask.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I put a few
16 questions to this witness, can we move to private session for a moment,
17 please? Or a closed session, as suggested by my learned friend
18 Mr. Zecevic.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, private will do.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 17813-17815 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Witness, immediately after the occupation of the town, the
12 Serbian municipality of Doboj
13 appointed president. The president of the Executive Committee was
14 Borislav Paravac; and Major Stankovic, Milovan Stankovic, was appointed
15 defence commander of the town. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. The previously-formed Crisis Staff declared a state of war,
18 imposed curfew, ordered mobilisation of the entire Serbian population,
19 and appointed commissioners for all the companies and institutions of
20 authority in the town; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. So you will, therefore, agree with me that there was no dilemma
23 whatsoever; that it was the Crisis Staff who imposed the curfew?
24 A. Yes, that's correct. They were the highest-ranking organ.
25 Q. Finish your answer.
1 A. I think that was the highest organ in a socio-political community
2 that organised life at all levels.
3 Q. I asked you to finish this because you obviously anticipated my
4 next question.
5 Very well. Now I'm going to show you now Exhibit 1D260.
6 Q. Could you please be so kind as to take a look at this document
7 before I ask a question, and it is related to what we discussed a minute
9 A. Yes, I see it. But, of course, I have never had this document in
10 my hands, and I don't see who signed it.
11 Q. I assumed as much, but you can see that it was exactly the
12 Crisis Staff who prescribed measures relating to the violation of the
13 curfew, that the -- banned any public gatherings, and that certain
14 punishments and -- were envisaged. You can see that?
15 A. Yes. That is exactly what I said.
16 Q. Yes, I was going to ask you about that.
17 Yes, that is what I wanted to ask you exactly with relations to
18 your previous answer. Do you agree that the Crisis Staff was the main
19 organ in charge of the functioning of the municipality in that period?
20 A. I think it was.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. Could Mr. Cvijetic let us know
22 where in this document the curfew is mentioned. I tried to glance at it
23 very quickly, and I cannot see it.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Under item 1 it is said that
25 movement is being restricted and that no people should be outside during
1 curfew, and there's reference to the Crisis Staff decision.
2 So the curfew is mentioned under item 1, and we have the
3 testimony of this witness to the effect that it was the Crisis Staff who
4 imposed the curfew.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I don't see the word "curfew." I don't see the
6 imposition or any timings.
7 There's an issue of moving and loitering in the streets. No
8 specific time. And it doesn't really mention the curfew.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I'm sorry. I agree.
10 But let's clarify this with the witness.
11 Q. Sir, there is mention here specifically the time that you spoke
12 about, so moving or staying in the streets is banned other than during
13 the period allowed for procuring supplies.
14 Do you agree with that?
15 A. One can see that this decision was taken by the Serbian
16 municipality of Doboj in accordance with the rules of public law and
17 order which allows for certain bans to be imposed.
18 I still claim that the movement was restricted throughout the
19 day, except during the period from 8.00 until 11.00 in the morning. I
20 don't see who signed this, but this is irrelevant to me, because I
21 personally felt the consequences.
22 Q. Yes, that's clear. But in item 1 it is said that anyone found on
23 the streets outside that time-period, which is allowed for provisions to
24 be obtained, would be punishable. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry,
2 there's no relevance in this document to a time-period. There's no
3 reference - sorry - to a time-period.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 companion document that this is cross referenced with that you would wish
6 to ... for whatever purposes you're showing this to the witness. Because
7 in terms of the question you've asked so far, Article 1.1 speaks for
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I showed him this
10 document as part of his testimony and his claim that the main organ which
11 took care of the functioning of life in Doboj municipality was the
12 Crisis Staff. Furthermore, his claim that the Crisis Staff prescribed
13 the curfew, introduced mobilisation, was the basis; and we see from the
14 heading that the Crisis Staff also envisaged punishment for moving
15 outside of the time designated for shopping. That was his testimony.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 think you -- I think you've missed the point that Mr. Demirdjian made and
18 which -- which, as we understand it, is that this document, particularly
19 Article 1.1 to which you are referring the witness, is all well and good
20 in itself but on the face of it, it doesn't say anything about the times
21 of a curfew. And therein lies the difficulty.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The second thing, Your Honour, in terms of how
23 the evidence is being referred to, Mr. Cvijetic is saying that:
24 "Furthermore, his claim that the Crisis Staff prescribed the curfew."
25 During his evidence in-chief, he involved the Crisis Staff and the
1 police. So in terms of misstating the evidence, I think we should be
2 careful about that.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the witness a clear
5 Q. Sir, item 1, which you see, and you can read what is says, does
6 it relate to what you testified about? Does it relate to the time which
7 was meant for shopping and the time which wasn't meant for that purpose?
8 A. I can't be absolutely certain that this document talks about the
9 introduction of the curfew in the field.
10 This document, which has the principles in it, it is the highest
11 organ that designates how one should carry itself in such circumstances.
12 However, it doesn't list the time to which the ban applies; it just says
13 that fines will be imposed. Now who applied this decision, I believe,
14 should be the person who should be asked. Somebody elaborated on this,
15 and I believe it would be logical that the chief of police would adhere
16 to this, that the commander of town would adhere to this, and that other
17 important organs would participate in implementing this decision by the
18 highest socio-political organ in a certain community, or in a certain
20 That's my answer. I can't tell you exactly what the author
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you allow.
23 Mr. Witness, one simple question. You told us you heard about a
24 curfew on the radio. Is this what is said under 1? Is what you heard on
25 the radio?
1 Under point 1 of Article 1. Is that what you heard on the radio?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. Not
3 verbatim. The radio read out orders, read out messages on their
4 loud-speakers. They talked about movement, they talked to loitering,
5 they talked about bans and fines; and this is something general. Now
6 what we had was something more specific - naming the time, from and to.
7 Movement after 11.00 in the morning and movement before 8.00 in the
8 morning, that is to say, movement was allowed for a total of three hours,
9 between 8.00 and 11.00.
10 I can draw my own conclusion based on this. In my opinion, this
11 is just a draft that was made by somebody to have order in town. As for
12 who implemented this and based on whose further decisions, I really don't
13 know. It is logical that the police and the army would be involved as
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. All right. Now that you've mentioned the army, would you agree
17 with me conclusion that in that period, or in a part of that period, the
18 town was under military administration, practically?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How do you explain that?
21 A. After the Serbian army entered town in the night between the
22 2nd and the 3rd and until a week or two - I'm not certain - later, the
23 military administration functioned on its own rules. I didn't know until
24 when they functioned and when the so-called civilian organs took over
25 power. I found out about that, and I explained that in my earlier
1 testimony how. It was by accident that I heard of this from
2 Mr. Stankovic.
3 Q. You said that Major Stankovic was replaced by Colonel Lisica; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know about some measures that he, as commander, took and
7 certain limitations or restrictions that he imposed as town commander and
8 as a military officer?
9 A. Not specifically. I wasn't in such a position. But I know that
10 on the radio he declared that the Serbian People were poorer than other
11 people. He had inflammatory statements; said that people had the right
12 to take things from other people's houses. And my interpretation
13 was - and I apologise to you and the Prosecution and the Court - I
14 interpreted this as an invitation to looting, because there was state of
15 war. And I apologise to the Court for moving on. Despite this, there
16 was no war in Doboj. Proof of that is the last issue of the local paper
17 which was then called "Glas Komune," and the title was: Doboj Liberated
18 Without a Single Bullet Fired. So I was shocked --
19 Q. I'll ask you specifically about this. Do you know that
20 Colonel Lisica mobilized people in the territory of Doboj
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know that he even mobilized the civilian police and
23 dispatched the chief of police to the front?
24 A. No. But I know that based on the system of subordination, in a
25 certain territory where there's combat, or where combat is expected, as a
1 principle, and based on the law, the civilian police is resubordinated to
2 a higher military command. I believe that's how things are in all
4 As for the mobilisation, I saw how it was done in the JNA centre
5 and at the garrison when I was detained. Now whether he ordered or
6 somebody else, I don't know.
7 Q. All right. You again anticipated one of my questions. Since you
8 were doing the work that you were doing, you know about this very well.
9 Now, tell me, was Doboj shelled throughout that time, or a part
10 of the time?
11 A. Not initially. It happened in the middle of the year that a
12 shell or two would fall. For a while we were surprised that shells
13 arrived from the west, that is, from the north-west, and we were certain
14 that this was not a shell from the enemy territory but an own shell.
15 Q. I'll ask you specifically --
16 A. Yes, that's fine.
17 Q. How many victims were there as a result of this shelling in
18 Doboj? Please answer.
19 A. There were casualties, but I don't know the number. It wasn't a
20 large number; I know that for a fact, because, as a rule, there was
21 always an alert given to the civilians. It was a caricature,
22 Your Honours --
23 Q. If you could just answer my specifically.
24 A. You would go down to the basement and shelling would start but by
25 the other side. To be specific, in my own neighbourhood I saw two or
1 three shells land. One landed in front of my entrance and it broke a
2 window. Nobody was hurt. And another shell landed in a yard and again
3 nobody hurt. And I know that one shell landed near the SUP, and I
4 believe somebody was injured there. A man who was on his way back from
5 hospital got hit. It was quite a memorable situation; that's why I
6 remembered it.
7 Q. Was a memorial raised to the victims of this shelling? Do you
8 know that?
9 A. There is a memorial in front of the SUP building in Doboj, but I
10 think that this is a memorial to fallen policemen, primarily policemen,
11 at the front, who were killed at the front where there was fighting.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. There is a memorial in Doboj. Actually there are two: one from
14 the First World War and the second one from the Second World War.
15 Q. If you don't know it, I'll just move on.
16 Furthermore, you talked about a shortage of electricity. This
17 power cut, did it relate to the entire municipality? Was everybody out
18 of power?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Sir, I'll put a claim to you which largely relies upon your own
22 The curfew, as was prescribed, related to all civilians in Doboj;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During the curfew - and I'm asking whether you know - people who
1 worked in certain services which had to function were able to move, but
2 they had to have a licence; did you know about that?
3 A. Yes. I was in that position myself.
4 Q. So you had a permit to move during the curfew?
5 A. Yes. Because you had to go to work and you had to go home. And
6 you had to take the shortest route.
7 Q. I didn't ask you that by accident, because we have testimony from
8 others that other non-Serbs who worked in specific services had such
9 permits and were allowed to move around.
10 A. I am not a Serb. I told you what I was. And I was under work
11 obligation in the (redacted). I had a decision and I had an
12 approval from the responsible organ of the Secretariat for
13 National Defence and from the president of the court saying that I was
14 able to go to work.
15 Q. Was it the case with other services and with other employees who
16 worked in these services who had to go to work?
17 A. Everybody had a decision where I worked. And where I worked, the
18 registrar of the court issues these -- issued these permits. As for
19 other places, I don't know.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
21 questions for this witness.
22 Q. Sir, thank you for answering my questions.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 And is it still the position that there are no questions from ...
25 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. We don't have a question for
1 this witness.
2 JUDGE HALL
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
5 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
6 Q. Sir -- if we could have that document back on the screen that
7 Mr. Cvijetic showed you, 1D260, exhibit. Exhibit 1D260. Is it still
8 there? Okay.
9 Can you see the date on that document?
10 A. If that's this document, then the date is 28 May 1992.
11 Q. Very well. At page 21 today, earlier, you answered one of my
12 questions and you said that you heard the curfew -- you heard of the
13 curfew immediately on the 3rd of May, 1992. Is that the position?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And, in relation to the curfew which this document does not
16 specifically deal with, Mr. Cvijetic put to you that the Crisis Staff
17 issued the decision relating to the curfew.
18 Can you remind us, who saw to it that it was enforced?
19 A. In my answer to Defence counsel, I said that based on this
20 document I can't say that it says Crisis Staff, and I can't see a
21 signature. Therefore, this bare document tells me of general measures
22 passed by somebody. But the curfew was being enforced by the police.
23 Some kind of an agricultural commune can't be enforcing the curfew.
24 Q. Very well. Now, at page 42 just now, Mr. Cvijetic put to you
25 that Doboj was under "military administration."
1 Could you tell the Trial Chamber which forces were regulating the
2 life in the town?
3 A. Between the 2nd and 3rd of May, as day broke, I saw - and a
4 colleague of mine visited me at home, we had been colleagues until
5 then - the army, which they called the Serbian army, had white lilies on
6 a red surface which they wore. And that was when I found out that the
7 Serbian army had taken control of town, and I found out that Stankovic
8 was the town commander, and so on. And everything that happened later.
9 Q. Now, you were asked about the subordination of the police to the
10 army and you said that when combat was expected, the police was
11 subordinated to the army. And then Mr. Cvijetic asked you whether you
12 knew that the chief of police was mobilised.
13 Now, do you know anything about the relationship between the
14 chief of the police and the army?
15 A. I gave the only answer I could, both to you and to him.
16 As I'm aware of the regulations as they were before the war, the
17 police was always subordinated to a higher military command in the
18 territory where certain combat is happening. Now, whether that was what
19 happened in this specific case, I don't know. I don't know that. I also
20 don't know whether the chief was mobilized. I know that he became chief
21 before the war. And before him, another man had been chief, who was
22 replaced right at the very beginning of the war. And we commented by
23 saying that he was not good enough for the new authorities and for the
24 new regime that had power and that that was the reason that he was
25 replaced. Whether he was mobilized, whether he was one the carrying out
1 the mobilisation, whether he was implementing this decision that the
2 Defence talked about, or to what extent, I just know that the curfew was
3 in place from, until, and I know what practice was. And practice was not
4 what it says here. I personally would have signed this, in the situation
5 that was. But, in practice, in wartime, things are not implemented that
6 way; otherwise there wouldn't have been persecutions, arrests, et cetera.
7 Q. You told us that the chief of police was quickly replaced. Who
8 is this man you're referring to?
9 A. I referred to the chief of police who was chief before the war,
10 before the 3rd of May, 1992. He was replaced by one Andrija Bjelosevic,
11 a man I don't know. I don't even think that he hails from the town in
12 which I was born and where I lived.
13 Q. Very well. You were also asked about shelling and casualties.
14 Now, how many shells in total fell on the town of Doboj during your time
15 there? To your knowledge.
16 A. Oh, that was a short question and my answer will be even shorter.
17 I can't really reflect the situation as it was. If I say that
18 there were ten shells, it will be wrong. If I say 50, it will be wrong
19 again. A number of shells did fall while I was there, but I didn't count
20 them. When there was an attack, the children counted the shells. But
21 Doboj wasn't shelled daily; and when it was shelled, it wasn't shelled
23 When the first shell fell somewhere, we would hear it or see it,
24 and then we said, Wait till the third one falls and after the third one
25 there will be no more, then you can move freely about. And you can
1 believe me that's how it was.
2 It is true that Doboj is not a devastated city. It is
3 well preserved. True it is somewhat poorer than it was, but to a larger
4 extent it is preserved. There have been shells, but I haven't counted
5 them so I cannot give a precise answer.
6 Q. That's fine, sir. Could you tell us, in which part of the year
7 did the -- did most of these shells fall? You were there during 1992 and
9 A. In the spring and summer of 1993, there were more shells,
10 somewhat more. And now I remember a case. I saw from my balcony when I
11 was looking toward the garrison there was a tanker truck passing by and I
12 know that it was hit on that road. But, generally speaking, in the
13 spring and summer of 1993 [Realtime transcript read in error "1992"],
14 there was more shelling. Actually, it was more returning fire. Don't
15 misunderstand me. More than in 1992, when it was really, very rare.
16 Q. Very well. And the last topic that you were asked about was
17 about the laissez-passer that you were given by the authorities.
18 First of all, in -- you said you worked (redacted). How
19 many other non-Serbs were working there?
20 A. Nobody.
21 Q. To your knowledge, how many non-Serbs were awarded such passes?
22 A. Where I worked, there were only Serbs and me. And I'm not -- I'm
23 not a Serb. So they couldn't get any laissez-passers or any documents.
24 I got one. I was a local. People knew me --
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir --
1 A. -- and they chose me for reasons known to them.
2 Q. My question was: Generally speaking, in the town of Doboj
3 you know how passes were given to non-Serbs, if any?
4 A. No.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness answered.
6 When asked by me, he said he couldn't answer. I asked him the same
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there was a work
9 obligation --
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let's let the witness finish, because he was
15 As for other institutions and firms, I don't know whether they
16 got laissez-passers; that's what you asked about. But I know that they
17 went there to work, because they were under work obligation. And people
18 went to work to the timber-processing plant, to the food-processing
19 plant, to the machinery plant, but they went there in an organised
20 fashion. Whether or not they had laissez-passers is something about
21 which I can only speculate, and I don't want to do that.
22 Q. And just to clarify the matter. You're saying that people were
23 going these various places; my question specifically refers to non-Serbs.
24 Were these people, (redacted)
25 (redacted) were these people non-Serbs?
1 A. Yes. They were ordered to go there. Ordered by the authorities.
2 Because the manufacturing process had to be kept up, work had to
3 continue. And after a short while they were also expelled from the
4 territory like everybody else.
5 Q. And one last question on this issue, sir. When were you given
6 this laissez-passer? Which part of the year?
7 A. Now I have to calculate. I left Doboj on the 25th of October,
8 and I had worked for 11 months, which means that it would have been
9 Autumn 1992. It may have been early October or late December, I think.
10 Q. And perhaps you can explain to the Judges how it is that you got
11 this laissez-passer, who gave you this laissez-passer.
12 A. I was at home, as usual, because movement was prohibited. We
13 couldn't visit neighbours. We couldn't assemble for any reason. And
14 they came for me, that is, the then-commander's driver came, and the
15 commander was Stankovic at the time, and he took me to the JNA centre,
16 which was about 150 to 200 metres from my house. There he introduced me
17 to two other men and said, We'll have you work here with this man.
18 That's what they had decided. Who exactly, I don't know. But I think
19 that it was Stankovic who had personally helped me to perform my work
20 obligation there.
21 What had I done to deserve that? It may sound absurd, but
22 nothing. But it was important to me that in this way I may have been
23 better protected than those who had no documents at all.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I noticed that at page 50,
1 line 23, I mentioned the location where the witness worked. Being the
2 only non-Serb there, he might be easily identified. If we could redact
3 that, please.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just a second.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
10 Q. Sir, at -- sorry.
11 I have one clarification for the transcript as well. At page 50,
12 line 18, the witness said: "... generally speaking, in the spring and
13 summer" and here it reads "of 1992, there was more shelling."
14 I think that we heard something else.
15 Sir, could you clarify that for us, if the year is correct?
16 A. No. I said 1993. I may have misspoken, in which case I
17 apologise. But it was in 1993.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have another correction to the
23 transcript. It's, again, about a date. Page 52, line 14, reads that --
24 to the Prosecutor's question when he got the pass allowing him to move
25 about, we see December 1992.
1 Q. But I believe you said something else. Could you please repeat?
2 A. Yes. I said that I left on the 25th of October, 1993. That's
3 when I left Doboj.
4 Q. Just say when you got it.
5 A. And I went 11 months back, which then would be this latter half
6 of September or early October 1992.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's when I received the decision
10 that I had -- was under work obligation and I got a workplace --
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Yes, you've already said as much. It was just the date that
13 mattered to me.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 we'd rise now and return in 20 minutes.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, please.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Hannis, before -- or, Mr. Demirdjian, before
19 we rise, this is perhaps something you should take care of during the
20 break. We are reminded that Ms. Pidwell said this morning about -- it's
21 about ST-228. Ms. Pidwell said this morning that ST-228 should, for a
22 reason that we don't know of, testify first in Karadzic. Then she said
23 there would then have to be a day's break, at least, while his transcript
24 was considered by the Defence.
25 So that would mean -- if this is correct, that would mean that he
1 couldn't testify in this case on Monday. And that would mean also that
2 if he could -- if he would testify on -- in Karadzic on Monday and then
3 leave one day in between, we would be on the -- on the Wednesday
4 afternoon. We have more or less two sessions on the Wednesday afternoon.
5 That wouldn't be enough. There is a real problem there. But we don't
6 see why -- why it would be necessary to have him in Karadzic first. And
7 we would insist, if we would consider the -- the OTP's application to
8 have him in the first week of January, to have him on Monday.
9 MR. HANNIS: I will -- I don't know the precise answer to that.
10 I will check, Your Honour, and get back to you. I know that was the
11 proposal, to have him testify in Karadzic on Monday and testify in this
12 case on Wednesday. Mr. Brown to start on Monday the 17th. And maybe one
13 or two other witnesses somewhere in there depending on your decision on
14 another pending application. But I will check and try to report back to
15 you before the end of the day.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: You have to realize -- OTP has to realize that
17 having this witness on Wednesday, there would probably be a problem and
18 he would have to stay over for the -- until Monday.
19 MR. HANNIS: I will advise her and get back to you.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because on Wednesday we would be unable to start
21 until 3.00. So there would only be a little more than two sessions left
22 for Wednesday.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: And we don't sit on the Thursday and Friday, as
24 you know.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 the sequence on which the OTP insists, as in the passage read out by
2 Judge Delvoie, how -- what -- how certain can you be in your
3 representations - and I say "you"; not you personally but the OTP in its
4 representations - to this Chamber of that witness coming in Karadzic on
5 the Monday?
6 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honours. And maybe the simplest
7 solution is: We have him first and Karadzic follows us. That's
8 something I'll discuss and get back to you about. Thank you.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, is the witness released?
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No? Okay.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL
18 which we have a short oral ruling to deliver, then we will hear from
19 counsel as to whether they have a report on the matter we raised just
20 before the break. And we will take the adjournment for the day, because
21 it is obvious that we couldn't complete the next witness before, so we
22 would begin his testimony tomorrow.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, about the laissez-passer you got. I
25 understand you got that somewhere in the Autumn of 1992, which means,
1 first of all, that you were under the curfew obligation from May to
2 Autumn 1992; that's right? Without the laissez-passer. Do you confirm
4 A. That is correct, Your Honour. But I was obliged to respect it
5 even later.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, of course. Now, that's my -- my second
7 question. While under curfew on the one hand but with a laissez-passer
8 for your work obligation -- I should first have confirmed that your work
9 obligation was something that had nothing to do with your previous
10 functions from which you were dismissed. That was what -- what was
11 called in the -- in the region "work obligation," and that could be
12 anything; right? I don't -- I don't need any other specification.
13 Okay. Now, this laissez-passer --
14 A. That is correct.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: This laissez-passer, did that -- did it allow you
16 to move around freely within -- within the hours that you normally could
17 not without laissez-passer, or was it only -- did it only permit you to
18 go to work and come back and nothing else?
19 A. Your Honours, I understood that to mean that I could go to work
20 and come back home; no more than that. Which means from 7.00 a.m. till
21 3.00 p.m.
22 That's how I understood it, and that's how I behaved.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now something else. You told us you lived at --
24 well, practically in the centre of Doboj. Was that a -- where you live,
25 was that a mixed neighbourhood, with people of mixed ethnicity?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now, then, during the curfew, let's say
3 before the Autumn of 1992, to keep it simple, as from 11.00 in the
4 morning you were in your apartment and you couldn't move; right? You
5 could -- you could see what happened in the street because you had -- you
6 could see that; right?
7 A. That is correct.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... did you --
9 did you see -- move people around while you were inside and could not go
11 A. In principle, very few people moved about. And I knew many
12 people because -- and many people knew me because I was born and raised
13 there; however, I said [as interpreted] many unknown persons in civilian
14 clothes and also in uniforms.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, I'm referring to, let's say, normal people
16 from your neighbourhood. You had -- you had Serb neighbours? I
17 don't ...
18 A. I must say that -- and I said as much in my statement, that the
19 curfew was mostly honoured by non-Serbs. There were cases of neighbours
20 who declared that they were Serbs and who could move about freely and
21 return, but the others were not allowed to go out and -- on the street,
22 if they were not Serbs. I can claim that with full responsibility.
23 In my building, there were 18 apartments. Out of these 18, ten
24 or 11 families were non-Serbs. And they were all in their apartments.
25 Some had to leave their apartments earlier, some later.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm more interested in the people that did not
2 stay in their apartment during the curfew.
3 So the -- the -- the other -- you said ten families were -- were
4 of Muslim ethnicity and the others were of Serb ethnicity, I suppose; did
5 they go out freely? Did you see -- did you see them go out?
6 A. If I may, most Serbs who were healthy and of age had already been
7 engaged by the police, the military, or by the firms where they worked.
8 Or -- their families, children, wives, if the wives were not employed,
9 freely moved about in their neighbourhood, stayed outside, played. Even
10 my girl, who was four at the time, played with them during the time when
11 there was no curfew. So they could move about, but the others could not.
12 Believe me. I don't know -- I don't know what else I can ...
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness. I have three questions
15 for you.
16 And the first question is, actually, a question that will follow
17 up on the questions just put to you by Judge Delvoie. Because,
18 Mr. Witness, it is still not quite clear - to me at least - just how this
19 matter of the curfew was organised. You are saying that it was
20 discriminatory in the sense that although it applied to everyone,
21 formally speaking, it was practiced in such a manner as to allow Serbs to
22 move around freely during all hours of the day, while non-Serbs were
23 ordered to stay inside after 11.00 in the morning, and, if they were seen
24 on the streets after 11.00 and before 8.00 next morning, they would be
1 You also told us that the people who had to go to work in order
2 to maintain vital functions of the town, that is to say, the -- the
3 factories that you mentioned earlier on, that for all the workers there,
4 they would be given laissez-passers which would allow them, actually, to
5 go to work and come back again, and that in those instances many
6 laissez-passers were given to non-Serbs.
7 Can I ask you if this is correctly understood?
8 A. Your Honour, I said of myself for -- that I had received one;
9 whereas the others who were under work obligation, I can't say that they
10 received any. But it's a fact that they went to do their work
12 I can give you an example. When I tried to check how my mother
13 was doing, who was living two kilometres to the south of the centre of
14 town, and that was during the time when movement was allowed, I was
15 stopped at the police check-point, and my wife, who accompanied me, was
16 told that I shouldn't go down that way again because I would be arrested.
17 And I never tried to do so again, neither during the time of free
18 movement nor during the curfew.
19 I only received the approval to go to work and come back. We
20 were, literally speaking, in house arrest. Whether the other employees
21 got passes, I cannot say.
22 Now I remember a detail though. In front of the police building
23 in the centre of town, there was a small kiosk, and a policeman was
24 sitting there who would give permission to somebody who had some business
25 to do, such as go to pharmacy to get some medication, which was only a
1 few hundred metres away. He would get a special card with his personal
2 information, and with that card he would then -- that person would go
3 there, do what he had to do fast, and return soon.
4 And as for all the other people who were in town, who regulated
5 their affairs, I don't know.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And this policeman who would give the special
7 permissions that you just mentioned, would that be required even in the
8 open hours, between 8.00 and 11.00?
9 A. Yes. My father-in-law had to go to his weekend cottage, which
10 was a few hundred metres away, to take something from that cottage, some
11 books, books that were -- or something, and he got such a permission
12 for -- or, rather, to go there during the time when there -- when you
13 could move about freely. They called it prevention.
14 At that moment, nobody could know for sure whether this or that
15 house was mine or somebody else's. So then even during those hours when
16 movement was free, you needed permission to go to a certain place. And
17 there were controls in place, absolutely.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise for -- for drilling into this, but it
19 is important for the Chamber to understand how things worked in practice,
20 so I'll -- let me put a few more questions to you in relation to this
21 issue about the curfew.
22 Suppose, sir, that you were in your apartment and it would be
23 9.00 in the morning and you wanted to go down and get yourself a pack of
24 cigarettes; would that be possible? Could you just walk out of your
25 apartment, go down the stairs, enter into the street, and walk over to
1 whatever the tobacco shop was and get yourself your pack of cigarettes,
2 and then walk back without being stopped? Would that be possible?
3 A. Yes, in principle. On one occasion, I did exactly as you
4 described, only I wanted to buy some fresh meat that I had heard arrived
5 in the nearby butchers, and I bought some meat. At that very moment, two
6 police entered the shop, because the police station was just opposite it,
7 and I heard them saying, Look at this man -- [microphone not activated].
8 There are more of them. And I learned a lesson from them, and I
9 immediately went home.
10 I was security-conscious at the time, and therefore I tried to
11 stay indoors as much as possible. For example, when my daughter got ill,
12 I had to see a doctor who was also dismissed from work, although he was a
13 Serb. But I asked him to come over to a house visit to examine her and
14 give her injections. But these are the moments when you have to take
15 risks, otherwise it was undesirable.
16 In addition to the police, there were some other formations who
17 belonged, I don't know to whom. I, as a soldier, could not understand
18 that such formations could exist, because a person holding a certain
19 position carries certain responsibility for that, so I expected this to
20 be at least respected in terms of how it was written. However, the daily
21 practice in Bosnia-Herzegovina was something else. And later I heard
22 that this same practice prevailed in the majority of places and towns.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. So, if I understand you correctly, the --
24 during the times of the curfew, the difference between Serbs and
25 non-Serbs was really that, while, on the one hand, the non-Serbs chose to
1 stay indoors as much as possible, even in the so-called open hours; while
2 the Serbs simply disregarded it.
3 Is that your testimony?
4 A. This is what I assert. However, during the time outside curfew
5 hours, all the chores and businesses were done by women and mainly
6 elderly women at that. Men had to behave differently. They were
7 expected to keep a low profile. That is why women tried to use these
8 three hours to do their shopping and other chores that were necessary for
9 keeping their households. And I call this discrimination.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... sir --
11 A. But that was -- when we looked at this decision, this is
12 something that didn't happen in reality. In practice, it was completely
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do I understand you correctly: If -- my summary
15 of your testimony here is that Serb men and women did not feel that they
16 were obliged to respect the curfew in Doboj in April and May of 1992?
17 A. That's correct, Your Honour. Exactly that.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So Serb men and women would leave their houses
19 and go out into the public areas regardless of the curfew, and if they
20 were stopped by a police and checked who they were, then they would be
21 allowed to move on, rather than being arrested.
22 Is that correct?
23 A. That is correct. Most of them knew each other, and they went
24 about even without any checking. We sometimes said that we should try
25 and stick our ID cards on our foreheads. It's not a nice thing to say,
1 but that's how it was.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: And your testimony is also that Serbs could move
3 around freely, irrespective of whether they had special laissez-passers.
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that is correct. I stand by my statement that they moved
6 freely, regardless of any restrictions or curfews. But that applies at
7 least to my neighbourhood. There are friends of mine, there are
8 neighbours of mine, but apparently these restrictions did not apply to
9 everyone, and that is why I felt discriminated against.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. Let me move to the second
11 question, which relates to the two times that you were arrested yourself.
12 And my question is just this: Were you arrested during the curfew hours,
13 or were you arrested in the open hours, between 8.00 and 11.00?
14 A. I was arrested during the period when we were free to move.
15 And this is what happened: I wanted to check on my mother, who
16 lived two kilometres south of Doboj. At the exit point of the town, a
17 patrol appeared. First they beat me, then they put me on a lorry and
18 drove me to the police station.
19 There was an inspector there who received me. He knew me from
20 before. And after a brief conversation, he let me go home. I only asked
21 him to escort me out of the building because there was a so-called
22 gauntlet of police officers, because whenever somebody was brought in,
23 they would just kick them or punch them, and in order to avoid that I
24 asked him to escort him -- to escort me out, and he did. He was a Serb,
25 but he was a good friend of mine.
1 But the fact remains that this incident happened during the hours
2 outside the curfew, when there were open hours.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I understand.
4 My third and last question relates to something that you said at
5 the very beginning of your testimony this morning; namely, the order that
6 came from what you called the superior command to collect all the weapons
7 from the TOs and hand those weapons over to the JNA. And you said that
8 this took place in the fall of 1991.
9 And my question to you is this: Do you know who issued those
11 A. This order was issued by the Federal Secretariat for
12 National Defence in Belgrade
13 Territorial Defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was called the
14 Republican Headquarters or Staff of the TO. The approval for that was
15 given by the then-Presidency, or, rather, the Government of Bosnia and
17 Therefore, we are talking about a decision that is interlinked,
18 and it was implemented 100 per cent in our territory. I have some
19 information that elsewhere that wasn't the case, but in our territory it
20 was implemented 100 per cent.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for your answers, sir. I have no
22 further questions to you.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 Tribunal. You are now released as a witness. Thank you, sir.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, if I may be excused. Mr. Hannis
3 will remain in court.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 The -- we are delivering this oral ruling at this stage.
6 The Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's motion of
7 5th November, 2010
8 17th of September wherein it held that: "There is an overriding public
9 interest" in General Manojlo Milovanovic's evidence being presented
10 orally. In the motion, the Prosecution requests that the evidence of
11 this witness be presented pursuant to Rule 92 bis. In addition, the
12 Prosecution requests to add one of its investigators, Mr. Blaszczyk,
13 ST-262, to its witness list as a Rule 92 ter witness.
14 Dealing firstly with the Prosecution's investigator. The Chamber
15 concludes that this witness should not be added to the Prosecution's
16 witness list. The witness is not relevant, as he is unable to testify to
17 the core issue of the matter, that is, the authenticity of the
18 Mladic notebooks. The Chamber notes that he cannot testify to the whole
19 chain of custody. Moreover, the Chamber recalls, having held on
20 17th of September, that the testimony of another Prosecution investigator
21 concerning the chain of custody of the notebooks was unnecessary to
22 establish the prima facie authenticity of the notebooks.
23 The Chamber does not see any reason to reconsider this opinion in
24 respect of further chain of custody evidence in view of the available
25 evidence of General Milovanovic who the Chamber considers to be able to
1 provide the best evidence regarding the notebook's authenticity. It
2 will, therefore, deny the motion in respect of ST-262.
3 In respect of General Milovanovic, the Chamber held on the
4 17th of September that the witness's statement, wherein it is stated that
5 he had reviewed all the notebooks, was sufficient to establish
6 prima facie authenticity of the notebooks. However, in view of the
7 nature of the witness's anticipated evidence, the Chamber concluded that
8 there is an overriding public interest in its being presented orally.
9 Nevertheless, the Chamber stated that it would consider reviewing the
10 situation if "by the time that the witness is due to be called, similar
11 evidence has already been provided to the Tribunal orally and in public
12 in other proceedings."
13 Having now considered General Milovanovic's testimony in the
14 Stanisic and Simatovic case, which, by decision of the
15 23rd of November of the Trial Chamber hearing that case was made public,
16 the Chamber is persuaded that the witness is able to offer evidence on
17 the authenticity of the notebooks as required by Rule 89(C).
18 There is a live challenge by the Defence both to the authenticity
19 and the contents of the notebooks insofar as they relate to the events
20 charged by the Prosecution in this case. The Chamber recalls holding on
21 the 17th of September that the addition of this witness will "protect the
22 rights of the accused by providing the Defence an opportunity to
23 challenge the authenticity of the notebooks."
24 Therefore, General Milovanovic will be able to provide the
25 Chamber with the best evidence regarding the notebooks' authenticity.
1 Given the importance of the matter to the present proceedings, the fact
2 that there is no other available witness who may testify to the
3 authenticity of the notebooks and the Defence's live challenge, the
4 Chamber rules that General Milovanovic shall be called viva voce.
5 General Milovanovic shall testify in the -- as to the
6 authenticity of the notebooks and - but only to the extent that he has
7 first-hand knowledge of entries therein that pertain to the time-period
8 relevant to the present case - the contents of the notebooks.
9 The Trial Chamber orders the Prosecution to call
10 General Milovanovic before the winter recess and allows three hours for
11 the examination-in-chief. The Defence is ordered to inform the Chamber
12 of how much time it would request for the cross-examination of this
14 Before we adjourn, do -- does the OTP have a further report on
15 the matter that the Chamber raised before the last break?
16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 I did speak with Ms. Pidwell, and we can make some arrangements
18 concerning Witness ST-228 that I think will address the Trial Chamber's
19 concerns. But she requests that you not direct us not to have him
20 testify on a particular day. That matter we wish to leave in our hands
21 until we have a decision from you about a couple of other pending matters
22 for other witnesses. I think ST-263 and 264 are witnesses that we're
23 seeking to add. That may affect the scheduling, and we need to consider
24 all those at the same time.
25 And your discussion at the earliest possible date will be helpful
1 because we anticipate we may need to request summons for those witnesses,
2 or subpoenas for those witnesses. And given the holidays, we would need
3 to process those earlier rather than later to assure that those witnesses
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis, in respect of Witness 228, the way I
7 understand this problem is that if the Prosecution wants to hear him in
8 the first week after the recess, that is to say, in the week of
9 Monday, the 10th of January, 2011, then the only day on which he can
10 testify would be on Monday, the 10th.
11 And the issue that relates to the other witnesses that you
12 mentioned, they would have to be called the following week, in any case.
13 And I'm not hereby giving any position on whether or not we will allow
14 those witnesses to appear at all, but even if they were to come, they
15 would not -- they would only be called for the following week.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I understand there's a possibility
18 that ST-228 could, for -- hypothetically speaking, appear on
19 Tuesday the 11th. And we have two sessions on the 12th, as I understand
20 it. We have Monday, Tuesday, and two sessions on Wednesday. So there's
21 a possibility that if you grant the pending application for one or more
22 of the other witnesses, that other witness might be better suited to
23 appear on Monday, and ST-228 on Tuesday.
24 I'm only speaking hypothetically. I don't know all the
25 circumstances. But this is what I've gleaned from speaking with
1 Ms. Pidwell ...
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: So in respect of 228, the -- the choice is that
4 if he is to come, then he shall appear here either Monday or Tuesday, the
5 10th or the 11th of January.
11 So our goal is to finish with ST-228 during the week of the 10th,
12 11th, and 12th. Our other goal is to finish all witnesses that we have
13 left at that time by the end of the following week, January 17th to the
15 And I'm informed that even if you grant our request, if you give
16 us all those additional witnesses we've asked, we will get them all done
17 within those two weeks, starting on January 10th.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] If we take them two at
19 a time.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 So we reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of
24 November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.