1 Tuesday, 30 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.24 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 Before I take the appearances, I note that we reconvene today
12 under Rule 15 bis; Judge Harhoff being absent.
13 May we have the appearances, please.
14 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner
15 (briefly), Matthew Olmsted, assisted by Ms. Susanti, replacing Mr. Smith
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For
18 the Defence of Mr. Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Jessica Lacey, and
19 Paula Lynch.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
21 Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and Jason Antley appearing for
22 Zupljanin Defence.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 The -- on the -- there's a brief ruling which the Chamber has.
25 That is, on the 23rd of November, the Prosecution filed
1 confidentially its 18th motion, providing notification of protective
2 measures applying to Witnesses 223, 238, 240, and 248. The Trial Chamber
3 affirms that in accordance with Rule 78(F)(i) the protective measures
4 previously granted continue to have effect mutatis mutandis in the
5 current proceedings and assign new pseudonyms to these witnesses as
7 Secondly, the -- there are two motions which have been filed in
8 respect of which the Chamber is requesting expedited responses; that is,
9 the Defence motion of the 29th of November to re-call Witness 191, in
10 respect of which we would request the Prosecution to respond, orally
11 would suffice, by Thursday of this week.
12 And the second matter is the Prosecution's motion of the
13 23rd of November to reconsider the oral ruling to admit unsigned
14 statements, and as regards this, we would request the Defence to respond
15 by Friday of this week.
16 Yes, Ms. Korner, you were on your feet.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, first of all, in fact I was going
18 to offer to respond orally to the request to re-call Witness 191 if
19 there's time today. We've actually considered it, and we have a
20 response. So not to delay the witness any further, but if there's time
21 at the end of the day, we can deal with that fairly quickly and shortly,
23 Your Honour, I was also going to raise the request for
24 reconsideration, also to invite Your Honours that there should be an
25 expedited response, because, Your Honours, of course, there's a
1 suggestion there that there should be a further witness called and/or the
2 testimony of one of the witnesses should be expanded to deal with that,
3 if Your Honours don't reconsider the ruling or don't rule in our favour.
4 And so obviously that's a matter that is quite important that we get a
5 ruling on.
6 Your Honours, can I deal with a couple of other administrative
7 matters, briefly. First of all, yesterday's witness, as Your Honours may
8 have heard, he was taken into hospital and operated on. It is possible,
9 our latest information last night from the Victims and Witness Unit was
10 that there may have to be a further operation. He is going to be seen
11 this morning, we hope, to ascertain what the medical prognosis is and
12 whether or not he will be fit to give evidence. We would still hope at
13 the end of the week, but if not, when. And whether he would be fit
14 before the -- the break. So that's the latest position as we understand
16 Your Honours, could we ask, if we may, please, for a ruling as
17 soon as possible on our application to call a number of witnesses as --
18 under the provisions of 92 quater. Because, obviously, if Your Honours
19 refuse the application, we would need to look for other witnesses, if
20 they're available, to cover these adjudicated facts for which they have
21 been filed.
22 Your Honours, I raised last week the question of the 92 bis
23 witnesses, and whether Your Honours would think it appropriate to read
24 into the record a summary which is an expanded version of the 92 -- I'm
25 sorry, the 65 ter summaries which accompany all of these so that there is
1 a public record, at least for the witnesses who are not those who have
2 protective measures, of what the witnesses say in those statements. The
3 reason that we ask for a ruling as soon as possible is that obviously the
4 summaries would have to be done, and we anticipate that we would perhaps
5 deal with them at the beginning of the week of the 13th of December, if
6 Your Honours feel this is an appropriate way of dealing with their
8 Your Honours --
9 JUDGE HALL: If I may respond to that, Ms. Korner, the -- when
10 you would have raised it, I made inquiries and my -- what I have learnt
11 so far is that this would be entirely novel in terms of 92 bis witnesses,
12 so it may very well be that you would have to give further reasons for
13 the -- this application before the Chamber is to definitively rule on it.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, my understanding is, in fact, the
15 opposite, that it's been done in a number of cases. But, however, I
16 rather took that for granted without making further inquiries as to the
17 exact cases. So I will deal with that. And, again, I can deal with that
18 at the end of the day, if there's time.
19 Your Honours, we -- Your Honours agreed -- acceded to the Defence
20 application to re-call, I believe it's Witness 181, I think it was. And
21 we said we might have to apply for witness summons. He's been contacted.
22 He doesn't require a witness summons. And he will be appearing -- he'd
23 asked for a letter simply confirming that he's required to attend, which
24 has been dispatched, or was going to be dispatched, this morning. And he
25 will attend to be further cross-examined on January the 10th. He will be
1 the first witness that -- that we call.
2 Your Honours, finally - and I'm sorry to have to deal with
3 this - Your Honours last week agreed, on Friday, that we could add
4 Witness 161 -- I'm sorry, 261 to our witness list and order that he be
5 called before the Christmas adjournment. Your Honours may recall that
6 this been the subject of some controversy, this witness. When the
7 Defence responded to our application to call him, they suggested that
8 this was a Defence witness, that the witness had not said what was
9 contained in the investigator's notes of the conversation with him; it
10 was only notes, as opposed to a recorded interview. And, indeed,
11 enclosed with their motion a statement from the Defence investigator
12 which purported to support their assertions.
13 Your Honours having ruled that 261 could be added to the
14 Prosecution witness list on Friday, he was contacted on the Friday and
15 told this and was asked if he was prepared to meet with the investigator
16 and a lawyer in order that a proper interview could be conducted. As I
17 say, all we have at the moment are investigator's notes.
18 He agreed but said he would like a witness summons -- a
19 Prosecutor's summons, which is what many of these witnesses have been
20 given, and so arrangements were then going to be made this week.
21 However, he was contacted again yesterday, and he spoke to both the
22 investigator and the lawyer, and he -- he said that -- he was told that
23 the summons that he was going to be received would be signed by the
24 Prosecutor, and that he then said that he wanted a summons from the
1 He was asked -- well, perhaps I should just read the brief note
2 I've been given of this. He said that he felt under pressure. And when
3 he was asked to explain, he said he wasn't being pressured by anyone but
4 he just felt stress from the situation. He complained that he -- that it
5 had been misrepresented to him when he was seen in August that he was not
6 going to be called as a witness, and he agreed that in fact that had
7 been -- it had been explained to him that the decision had not yet been
8 made. He was then asked whether the Defence had contacted him in the
9 last two days, and he said that they had. He was asked directly whether
10 it was an attorney for the Defence who had contacted him, and he said
11 that he -- we had better speak to the Defence about this, as he wasn't
12 sure whether he was allowed to divulge this information to us.
13 And at the end of the consideration, he stated that he would only
14 meet with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor if the
15 Trial Chamber issued a mandatory Court summons. And those were his exact
16 words, which were somewhat surprising words, if they were his own words
17 and not someone else's. I inquired of both Defence counsel yesterday
18 whether any of them had either personally or through investigators been
19 in contact with the witness. I did not receive a reply yesterday. I was
20 told this morning that it does appear that the investigator for the
21 Zupljanin team did get in contact with him. I have no idea, because I've
22 not been told, what was said by that investigator. But there are two
24 The first is that from Friday morning onwards when Your Honours
25 issued the ruling this was a Prosecution witness on our 65 ter list. And
1 as Your Honours know, because we've been through this over and over
2 again, the Defence, of course, may contact witnesses but they must inform
3 us that they intend so to do. No such notification was given to us.
4 The second matter is this: In the light of this conversation and
5 everything that has transpired from the motion, the response to the
6 motion in other words, the Prosecution will no longer be calling
7 Witness 161 [sic].
8 So that's the situation, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you for the update, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, I said "161"; it should be "261."
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you.
12 MS. KORNER: It may be it's a matter for Your Honours that you
13 might like to make an inquiry as to why there was this contact which
14 without notification, which is, again, a breach of the -- the rules.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can only assure
16 Your Honours that I don't believe, after receiving this information from
17 Ms. Korner, that I asked my investigator to prepare a statement to that
18 effect, if any contact were made with this witness. So as soon as I get
19 this confirmation, I will pass it on to the Prosecutors. Therefore, I'm
20 not in a position at this moment to respond to what has been said here.
21 What has been said by the witness is something that corresponds
22 to what has been said, that is, that he doesn't want to be the
23 Prosecution witness. And his official statement will be forwarded to
24 Ms. Korner and to the Chamber if necessary. We opposed --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Krgovic please slow down. This is
1 impossible to interpret. Thank you.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm in a position to say that the
3 Defence prefers to cross-examine the witnesses who have valuable
4 information rather than to have them as Defence witness. So our
5 intention and we think it is advantageous, to have witnesses testifying
6 here as Prosecution witnesses and we only do the cross-examine. So our
7 position is that we didn't in any way try to influence this witness to
8 the effect that he should reject the summons received from the OTP.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just say, I'm not quite clear. I
10 understood from what was said to me earlier that there had been contact
11 between Mr. Krgovic's investigator and this witness, whereas the
12 translation at page 7, line 6, reads, "if any contacts were made."
13 So I'm not clear whether Mr. Krgovic is saying that there was a
14 contact but he doesn't know the detail, or he says he doesn't even know
15 now whether there was a contact.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not aware of any
17 contacts. I have no such information. I have three investigators, and
18 last night I sent them an official request to explain what happened and
19 under which circumstances. As soon as I get this information, I will
20 convey it to the OTP.
21 JUDGE HALL: So there we have it for the time being.
22 Thank you.
23 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, those are the matters that I
24 wished to raise. As I say, if there's sufficient time at the end of the
25 session, I'll deal with the application to re-call the other witness.
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I now withdraw. Mr. Olmsted is
3 taking the next witness.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.
5 Because of the extant order in respect of the next witness, could
6 the blinds be lowered so the witness can be escorted to the stand,
8 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honour, since the next witness is a
9 92 ter witness, if you allow me, I'd like to give a brief -- a summary of
10 his evidence for the record while he comes in.
11 This witness describes how members of the Serb police, military,
12 and paramilitary units attacked his village Gornja Bioca in Ilijas
13 municipality in May 1992. The Muslim villagers thereafter took shelter
14 in the woods where they remained for several days without food and water
15 and then eventually surrendered to the Serb forces. They were then
16 detained at the local school in Gornja Bioca for several days and
17 interrogated by police officers. The witness and another detainee were
18 then transported to Ilijas SJB where they were beaten and then detained
19 for overnight.
20 The next day, the witness was taken to the railway station in
21 Podlugovi where he was placed in a basement with approximately 80 other
22 non-Serb detainees. He'll -- he describes in his statements the
23 conditions in that basement and also describes an incident where two gas
24 cannisters were thrown into the basement and at least one detainee
25 ultimately died from this gassing incident.
1 After spending several days in the basement, the witness was
2 taken to another detention facility, this time the Iskra warehouse in
3 Podlugovi, where he was detained for approximately 70 days, along with
4 over 100 other non-Serb detainees. He will likewise describe -- or he
5 does describe in his statement the conditions ata that detention
7 Finally, in mid-August, 1992, the witness and the other detainees
8 at the warehouse were transported to Planjo's House in Vogosca where they
9 were forced to cut wood, dig trenches, carry ammunition, and act as human
10 shields for the Bosnian Serb army. On the 1st of October, 1992, the
11 witnesses managed to escape while he was assigned to digging trenches up
12 at Zuc hill in Vogosca.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE HALL: Could the witness make the solemn declaration,
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: ST-004
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, sir. You may be seated.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE HALL: And I gather that you are hearing me in a language
23 that you understand, because of your responses.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Well, first of all, we welcome you to the
1 Tribunal and thank you for your assisting by attending to give evidence.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE HALL: And I would remind you that the solemn declaration
4 that you have just made imposes upon you an obligation to speak the
5 truth. And should you fail to do so, the Chamber is empowered to impose
6 the penalties for perjury.
7 The --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to tell the truth.
9 JUDGE HALL: Now, the -- you would have, by virtue of orders
10 previously made by this Tribunal, which we confirm, been granted the
11 opportunity, for good and sufficient reason, to have your image distorted
12 so that whereas members of the public who have a right ordinarily to know
13 what is being said before the Tribunal would hear what you are saying but
14 that they would be unable to identify you. Also, you have been granted,
15 as a part of these protective measures, a pseudonym, and the -- we will,
16 in the course of your testimony, refer to you by that pseudonym. We
17 intend no disrespect when we refer to you by that pseudonym or as
18 "Mr. Witness" instead of your name. It is merely as a means to ensure
19 that no error is made by inadvertently revealing your identity.
20 So I would first invite the usher to hand to you the pseudonym
21 sheet, which the Prosecution has. And if you're satisfied that it
22 correctly states your name and date of birth, you will sign it and hand
23 it back to her, please.
24 The pseudonym sheet is admitted under seal and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01730, under
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, you would have previously testified
3 before this Tribunal, and therefore it is only necessary for me to remind
4 you of the procedure; that is, that the side calling you begins - in this
5 case, it's the Office of the Prosecutor. And when they're finished with
6 their questions, the side opposite would have a right to cross-examine
7 you, and then the calling side can re-examine. And the Chamber may, at
8 that stage or indeed at any earlier stage, themselves, have questions of
10 You have been called under an expedited procedure which means
11 that the time that the Prosecution would spend with you would be
12 20 minutes and that the -- counsel for the Accused Stanisic has indicated
13 that they would require about 30 minutes. And, as presently advised,
14 counsel for the Accused Zupljanin, have -- have indicated that they will
15 not have any questions of you. But that may very well change in the
16 course of -- after your testimony is -- after your examination-in-chief
17 is complete.
18 Counsel, are those times that I have indicated correct?
19 20 minutes for the Prosecution; 30 minutes for the Stanisic Defence?
20 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I apologise. I meant to do an oral
21 application for a slight extension of that time. I sent this to, I
22 think, your legal officers.
23 This witness can provide evidence regarding a number of
24 photographs, a map, and a couple documents that are not part of his
25 92 ter package. And we think that this information, this evidence, will
1 be useful for this Trial Chamber in its consideration of events in
2 Ilijas. This is the only witness the Prosecution intends to call with
3 regard to Ilijas, and therefore we think it's important that we at least
4 familiarise the Trial Chamber with some of the locations as well as some
5 of the documentation that is relevant to this municipality.
6 So we're asking for 40 minutes to examine this witness.
7 JUDGE HALL: In total?
8 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honour.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Olmsted. The -- 40 minutes.
11 And the ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: And we would -- I would invite Mr. Olmsted to begin
14 his examination-in-chief.
15 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examination by Mr. Olmsted:
17 Q. Good morning, sir.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. First I want to ask you a few questions concerning your written
20 statements that make up your 92 ter package.
21 Prior to testifying today, did you have the opportunity to review
22 your written statements from 11 November 1996, 22 June 1997, 1 May 2003,
23 and 23 June 2010?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And having reviewed them, are you satisfied that the information
1 contained in these four statements is accurate and correct?
2 A. Yes, they are accurate and correct.
3 Q. With the limited time that I have with you, I do want to clarify
4 a few matters, a handful of matters, that are contained within those
6 MR. OLMSTED: If we can have P1449 - this is tab 1 - on the
7 screen, please.
8 It's not on the screen yet. At least on the screen that I have
9 in front of me.
10 Your Honours, we appear to have some technical difficulties. And
11 this will make it hard for me to show this witness documents, because I
12 can't see them on my screen.
13 So if we may pause at this moment until we sort this out.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, are you going to ask the witness
16 about the ethnic composition of Ilijas?
17 MR. OLMSTED: That is part of what I was going to be asking him
18 about, but mainly I'm -- I wanted to focus on his village which is the
19 subject of his evidence and his statements.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Okay, thank you.
21 MR. OLMSTED: Well ... I'm going to try to do this blindly.
22 Your Honours, I'm going to skip this. And maybe, if they can
23 sort this out, I'll bring it up at the end. I just wanted to familiarise
24 the Trial Chamber with this village.
25 Q. Sir, in your prior statements you describe the attack on the
1 village of Gornja Bioca towards the end of May 1992. Can you tell us,
2 did the non-Serbs offer any resistance to this attack?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were there any non-Serb military formations in the village?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did the non-Serb population in Gornja Bioca have any weapons?
7 A. Well, those were hunting rifles. And perhaps someone had
8 purchased weapons from the Serbs who were selling them to the Muslims and
9 then later on they would come to pick up these weapons.
10 Q. And you said "they came to pick up these weapons." Who was
12 A. Once they captured them, they seized these weapons because they
13 virtually asked them to return the weapons to them.
14 Q. When you say "they," is this the Serb forces who engaged in the
15 attack on the village?
16 A. Well, those were -- yes, the Serb forces.
17 Q. Can you just briefly describe the level of destruction that was
18 caused by the -- this attack on your village? The destruction to the
19 non-Serb property.
20 A. Well, shelling started first, which was followed by gun-shots --
21 or, rather, shots from heavy artillery as well as from automatic weapons.
22 This happened at 7.30 in the evening, when it started. And it stopped at
23 midnight. They fired a flare which indicated the end of the attack.
24 However, they resumed the attack at around 5.00 next morning, and the
25 shelling went on throughout the day. I suppose those were mortar shells
1 falling onto the woods where the Muslims had fled from their houses,
2 although some people did remain in their homes.
3 All of this lasted for two or three days so that on one occasion,
4 I believe that was during the second night of the attack, a group of
5 people headed for Visoko and at one point they came across a machine-gun
6 nest from which fire was opened and resulted in the death of two Muslims.
7 I believe that two of them were wounded.
8 This group went back to the forest where we had been ...
9 Q. And let me stop you there, because a lot of this is contained in
10 your statements.
11 I just wanted to clarify: During the shelling, were non-Serb
12 houses destroyed?
13 A. Well, the following day, when the attack started at 5.00 a.m.,
14 they went through the village and torching the houses. In the middle of
15 the village, there is a primary school where Serbs live, and further on
16 from the school is where Muslims lived. So they headed from the school
17 up there, and my house was first Muslim house in line. My house was set
18 on fire, as well as the house of Raif Sehic. And we saw some other
19 houses burning up there on the hills.
20 On that day, these people who attacked the village went to the
21 hill where Uzeir Semovic [phoen] and his son lived. They were in a
22 garage or a shed or whatever, I don't know what it was. He killed this
23 man and his son. They opened fire. The bullets penetrated the walls of
24 the garage and wounded a little girl. We were on the other side, on
25 another hill, and we were able to observe what was going on from that
1 vantage point around those houses.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, in your prior statements you mention that the
3 first place you were detained in was the school in Gornja Bioca, where
4 you and other non-Serb detainees were interrogated by two police officers
5 over the course of two days. You also mentioned that the commander of
6 Police Station Srednje, Mlado Maksimovic, came to the school to check on
7 the interrogations. Can you tell us, where is Srednje? Is that in
8 Ilijas municipality?
9 A. Srednje is part of the Ilijas municipality.
10 Q. And can you tell us, what was Mr. Maksimovic's ethnicity?
11 A. He was a Serb.
12 Q. In your prior statements you mention that on 3 June 1992 you and
13 Paco Durmic were taken to SJB Ilijas, the building in Ilijas, where you
14 were beaten and detained over night.
15 Can you tell us, what was the ethnicity of Mr. Durmic?
16 A. Durmic was a Muslim.
17 MR. OLMSTED: May we have 65 ter 3419.86 on the screen. And if
18 we can zoom in and focus on the left-hand side.
19 Q. Sir, this is a recent photograph, but do you recognise this town?
20 A. Yes, it's Ilijas.
21 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to hand you the electronic pen and ask
22 you to circle the SJB building in Ilijas.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell us, how many storeys does this
25 building have?
1 A. There's a ground floor and two storeys above that. Three storeys
2 in all. So the ground floor and two storeys above.
3 Q. Can you tell us on which floor you and Mr. Durmic were beaten?
4 A. On the highest floor. Or the second, if you start counting from
5 the ground floor.
6 Q. And on which floor was the jail cell, the jail cell that you were
7 detained in?
8 A. The jail cell was one storey below, that is, on the first floor,
9 the way we usually count. Or if you count the ground floor, then it's
10 the second floor.
11 Q. You mention in your prior statements that there were five other
12 persons detained along with you and Mr. Durmic in that jail cell who had
13 been captured in Ahatovici. Can you tell us, what were their
14 ethnicities, these other five men?
15 A. Four of them were Muslims. And one was the father of
16 Pero Vujovic, who said to us then that he had driven fast, he had been
17 speeding, and that that's why they had locked him up with us. But to my
18 mind he was there only to overhear the conversations among us. He was
19 then released, but we stayed in the cell.
20 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honour, may this be admitted into evidence.
21 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01731.
23 MR. OLMSTED: May we next have on the screen 65 ter 3419.67.
24 Q. Sir, the next place you were taken to and detained was the
25 railway station in Podlugovi; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. There's still the same photograph on my screen.
2 Q. Yes, and the same on mine. I think that they're trying to work
3 out a technical issue.
4 There we go. And we'll rotate it.
5 A. Yes, this is the railroad station.
6 Q. So this is the railway station in which you were detained.
7 A. Yes. I was detained in the basement of this railway station
9 Q. And in your prior statements you mention that Serb guards threw
10 in two gas canisters into the basement, through a window. Do you see
11 that window on this photograph? And, if so, can you circle it.
12 A. Yes, I can see the window. It's here. But they didn't use
13 petrol. They used some sort of poison. There were two rooms; I was in
14 the first room. And in the second room where this window was is -- they
15 threw something in the room through that window. And some people were
16 shouting it was gas and others said that it was poison. I noticed the
17 smoke, and when I inhaled it I fell down and I had the feeling as if I
18 were burning. And then someone said, Let's push the window-frame out so
19 we can -- we can leave. And somebody else said, No, don't do it, they
20 will shoot at us. But we were able to do so after all, we came out and
21 went to the platform of the railway station and there was a semi-circle
22 of Serb soldiers who had stockings over their heads. There was one man
23 without a stocking. I know him. Sasa Savic; he went to school with me.
24 So I'm certain that he was among those people then.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. OLMSTED: May this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01732, Your Honours.
4 MR. OLMSTED: May we have 65 ter 3419.68 on the screen, please.
5 Q. Sir, after being detained in the railway station basement for
6 several days, you were next taken to the Iskra warehouse in Podlugovi
7 where you were detained for approximately 70 days; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. I was taken to the Iskra warehouse where I stayed 70 days.
9 Q. Can you tell us, what happened to the detainees who remained in
10 the basement of the railway station? Did they survive?
11 A. They did not survive. In 1996, after the end of the war, they
12 were found at Radica Potok. It's by a village called Ljesevo. They were
13 all taken there and killed there. And after the war, their bodies were
14 found there.
15 Q. Did you help identify some of the bodies?
16 A. Yes. I was called to identify them, and I was able to identify
18 Q. What we have in front of us is an aerial photograph. Again, this
19 is a recent photograph, but can you locate and circle for us the
20 warehouse that you were detained in for approximately 70 days.
21 A. It's this warehouse.
22 Q. Can you also circle -- I don't know if you can tell from this
23 aerial photograph, but can you circle the railway station.
24 A. Yes, here it is.
25 We were taken from here. This is the bus-stop, by the way. And
1 then we were taken to this building. And here there was the old primary
2 school at Podlugovi.
3 Q. Can you place a number 1 at the warehouse and a number 2 at the
4 railway station.
5 A. There's number 1, the warehouse; and here's number 2, the railway
7 Q. In your prior statements you mention that over 100 people were
8 detained that facility. What were their ethnicities?
9 A. You mean at the railway station?
10 Q. No, at the warehouse. The people who were detained at the
12 A. Oh, the warehouse. They were Muslims and there were also Croats.
13 Q. Was -- looking at this warehouse, was the whole warehouse used as
14 the detention facility or only certain rooms of it?
15 A. No, only two rooms were used. One was locked. There was some
16 parcels there; I don't know what was inside. Possibly tools or maybe
17 some kitchen appliances.
18 Q. During your time at this warehouse, were you and the other
19 detainees ever allowed outside to get exercise?
20 A. No. Nobody went outside. Only on one occasion, when something
21 had to be done outside, they would take a couple of workers out until
22 they did what had to be done and then they would return them.
23 Sometimes there would be a tanker truck to clean the toilet,
24 because there was no water inside. So maybe once in a week there would
25 be a tanker truck for that to be cleaned because it stank horribly. And
1 that's where we spent the 70 days.
2 Once in 24 hours there would be a van that brought half a loaf of
3 bread each or -- and that was it. That's what we got. Possibly some
4 prisoners were allowed to receive food from some acquaintances, but those
5 were people who were on good relations with the local Serbs.
6 Q. To your knowledge, were any of the detainees held at the
7 warehouse involved in armed resistance against the Bosnian Serb forces?
8 A. Well, no, nobody. Because there were no organisations present
9 there. Nobody put up resistance. And I'm 100 per cent sure that there
10 was no armed conflict between Muslims and Serbs. It's only that the
11 Serbs attacked and shot, whereas the other side didn't return fire at
13 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honour, may this be admitted into evidence.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01733, Your Honours.
16 MR. OLMSTED: May we have on the screen 65 ter 2976.
17 And if we may turn to page 2 of both the English and B/C/S.
18 I guess page 3 of the English then, because we have different
19 pages here. There we have it.
20 Q. This is a list for exchange of captured persons from Ilijas
21 municipality issued by the Serbian municipality of Ilijas dated
22 25 June 1992.
23 Sir, you had the opportunity to review this list yesterday during
24 proofing. Were you able to recognise any of the persons on these lists?
25 I'm just speaking generally.
1 A. The exchange on the 20th of June, 1992; right?
2 Q. No. I don't want to talk about any exchanges at this point in
3 time. I just wanted to ask you, you reviewed this list of names during
4 proofing yesterday. Were you able to recognise the persons on this list?
5 Did you know them?
6 A. I knew these people but they were not exchanged on the
7 20th of June. Some of them were exchanged on the 25th of October, 1992.
8 Q. And that is more or less my next question. Did you see these
9 individuals on this list at any of the detention facilities in Ilijas?
10 A. Yes. I was able to see them at the primary school at
11 Gornja Bioca and in the Iskra warehouse at Podlugovi. The same people
12 were detained there with me, the ones I recognise on this list.
13 Q. Under number 83 we see the name Bakir Sehic. Can you tell us,
14 very briefly, what happened to him?
15 A. He arrived toward the end of June, I believe it happened, maybe
16 on the 20th or thereabouts. A man arrived who introduced himself as
17 Mico, and he said that he was a Vojvoda of Vojislav Seselj, that he had
18 come to defend the people in Bosnia, and that he was waging war in the
19 mountains, or something, and that we were lying about there, and
20 according to him we were having a good time and being well-fed. He
21 contacted the prisoner warden, whose name was Slavko, and told him to
22 single out two people and he would be back in the evening to take them
24 However, Bakir Sehic was there near the bars, and I don't know
25 why he picked him specifically. He turned toward the prison warden and
1 said, Prepare him for me immediately. And opened the door. Slavko
2 opened the door, Mico entered. He took some sort of string out of his
3 pocket and he said, In the name of the law I arrest you. He tied his
4 hands and took him away. He was later found in the mass -- mass grave
5 where the others from the railway station were also found.
6 Q. Did you identify his body?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this document be admitted into
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01734, Your Honours.
12 MR. OLMSTED:
13 Q. And I just have one last document to show you.
14 MR. OLMSTED: It's P1318-34.
15 Q. Now, what we have in front of us is a bulletin for
16 18 September 1992 from the prison department of the Serbian municipality
17 of Vogosca.
18 Sir, in your prior statements you describe how on
19 18 September 1992 you and 49 other detainees from Planjo's House were
20 used as human shields at the front line on Zuc hill. This prison
21 bulletin lists four detainees who were killed and seven who were wounded
22 on Zuc hill.
23 Can you tell us, just generally, how these detainees were wounded
24 or killed?
25 A. Well, on that morning -- or, rather, a driver came every morning;
1 his name was Milosevic. He came to fetch workers to take them to Zuc.
2 On that morning, he came driving a bus. We were ordered to line up in
3 front of that house, that is, the prison. And that bus driver and the
4 prison warden Vlaco went to the bus and whispered to each other and then
5 they came back and stood in front of the bus and Vlaco said to one of the
6 guards to pick 50 prisoners, to count them. That's what he did. And
7 then we were ordered to board the bus, which took us to Zuc.
8 A large pit was there which had been dug out. It was maybe two
9 or two and a half metres deep and some seven, eight metres wide. And we
10 were ordered to go into that pit. And some sort of officer then came and
11 he said to one of the soldiers that each platoon was in charge of
12 21 prisoners. Then they counted 21. And among those 21 there was me.
13 We were told to stand in front of one soldier each. First there
14 was a man who -- who stood in front of us and removed the mines that were
15 in front of their trenches. And we were ordered to walk in the direction
16 of the trenches of the Bosnian Muslims. While we were walking, I saw
17 some trenches and there was a man standing there holding a rifle and
18 looking at us. This went on for about 20 or 30 seconds. He didn't
19 shoot. Next to me there was Mirsad Sehic. He was to my right. I looked
20 at him and he looked back at me. And we looked at that man and then we
21 took cover behind a tree. And then the fire started from both sides, and
22 we were in between where they were shooting.
23 I was able to see people falling down hit by bullets. I saw
24 Enver Cinara, who was right next to me. I saw Mirsad, who was wounded in
25 the leg. There was Muhamed Rizvo; he was also killed nearby. And
1 Nermin Skando, who was also killed nearby. This all happened during that
2 first attack. And then later, a couple of minutes later - or, actually,
3 I don't know how long it lasted - the firing -- the fire stopped. And
4 one of the prisoners was ordered to go toward the trench --
5 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. Just to clarify now. So the persons
6 on -- listed on this document were among the killed and wounded on that
7 day who were being used as human shields; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Were there other persons who were wounded or killed that are not
10 on this list that you heard about?
11 A. Yes. When we came to the prison, the prisoners were saying that
12 13 prisoners had been killed. But the terrain was such that I was unable
13 to see everybody. I didn't see those who were killed on the other side.
14 And I can only confirm that the -- that the people on this list I didn't
15 see them getting killed personally, whereas I saw others getting wounded.
16 Q. Let me clarify. I know we're going a little bit over, but let me
17 clarify something that's in the transcript here.
18 These four persons that are listed as having been killed by the
19 enemy, Skando, Rizvo, Selimovic, and it says here "Cinaga" - I think
20 that's an incorrect spelling - did you personally see these four
21 individuals killed?
22 A. I saw Enver Cinara fall. I saw Nermin Skando fall. I saw
23 Hamid Rizvo fall. I saw Mirsad Sehic get injured. I saw Ismet Hujic get
25 Q. Thank you. That's -- that answers my questions.
1 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I apologise for going a little bit
2 over. I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE HALL: Well, we actually started a little late, so it
4 balances out.
5 Mr. Olmsted, the map, which there was the technical problem with
6 at the beginning, you said you would return to at the end, do you still
7 intend to deal with that?
8 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, just very briefly. If I could do that after
9 the break. I just wanted to show --
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
11 MR. OLMSTED: -- Your Honours where -- where the village was.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
13 So we take the break and return in 20 minutes.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. Sir, just to conclude, I want to show you the map that we wanted
20 to show you earlier.
21 MR. OLMSTED: If we can have P1449 on the screen.
22 And can we enlarge it and go towards the upper portion of it.
23 Enlarge it a little bit more. A little bit more. All right. Scroll up
24 a bit.
25 Q. Sir, we have see in front of us a map of the Sarajevo area which
1 includes Ilijas municipality, which we see in the upper portion of this
2 map. Can you - perhaps the usher can give you the pen again - and could
3 you circle for us your village, Gornja Bioca.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. Now, this map designates the areas that are
6 predominantly Muslim in green and those that are predominantly Serb in
7 blue, and we can see from this map that it appears that your village is
8 surrounded by Serb villages. Was that, in fact, the case back in
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, do you want me to tender this in as a
12 separate exhibit, or will you remember where the village is?
13 JUDGE HALL: I suppose, Mr. Olmsted, that the map speaks for
14 itself but...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MR. OLMSTED: No, no, I overheard Your Honour. It is. It's
17 actually an exhibit. It's P11 -- P1449. So it's already been admitted.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
19 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, I think you will be able to find it when you
20 are reviewing the evidence in the end, so I wasn't planning on tendering
21 his circling of the village.
22 JUDGE HALL: I suppose it wouldn't hurt, because we'll pull it up
23 to search around with a magnifying glass to find this village. It's
24 useful, so we could have it marked as an exhibit.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01735.
1 MR. OLMSTED: And, Your Honours, that concludes my
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
4 Mr. Cvijetic.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I will have only two questions.
8 And since we already have the map in front of us, I would like to ask you
9 the following.
10 The town of Ilijas was under Serbian control during the war; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. However, it was surrounded by Muslims throughout the war; did you
14 know about that?
15 A. No, it wasn't surrounded by Muslims. Ilijas was connected with
16 Vogosca and with Pale. And they had access towards Serbia,
17 Eastern Bosnia.
18 Q. And apart from the accesses, what about the other sides? It was
19 surrounded by Muslim armed forces.
20 Just tell me whether you know; yes or no.
21 A. That it was -- could you please repeat your question?
22 Q. Apart from the access that you talked about on the other three
23 sides, it was surrounded by Muslim armed forces during the war; did you
24 know about that?
25 A. I know there were lines towards Visoko and in other directions
1 around Sarajevo.
2 Q. And did you know that during these combat operations around it
3 was one of the -- one of those towns that was the most badly destroyed in
5 A. Ilijas?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I'm not sure.
8 Q. Were you there during the war?
9 A. During the four years [as interpreted] that I was in captivity, I
10 was there. And immediately after the war in 1996, I arrived to Ilijas,
11 and the town wasn't destroyed at all.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was four months
13 of detention, not four years.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know anything about the combat operations around Ilijas?
16 A. No.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have another
18 Prosecution exhibit on. It's their 65 ter list and it's 2976.
19 In the Serbian version, could we have the last page, please.
20 Actually, in both versions.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, a moment ago the Prosecutor showed you this list of
22 people to be exchanged and you recognised some of the names. Do you
23 remember that you answered the Prosecutor's questions in relation to this
24 document? Do you remember seeing this list?
25 A. Yes, I looked at this list.
1 Q. You can see that this list was compiled by the Crisis Staff of
2 Ilijas municipality; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I suppose that you know that there was a Crisis Staff in Ilijas
5 municipality at the time.
6 A. Yes, I knew that there was a Crisis Staff in Ilijas.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at the
8 previous page, which shows the name or the title of the document. And
9 could we zoom in on the title, please.
10 Q. Witness, I hope that you can read this. It says that this is a
11 list exchange of captured person from Ilijas municipality for persons
12 captured in Breza and Visoko municipalities.
13 A. The first exchange was in June, and a group of people who were
14 imprisoned in the primary school in Ilijas were exchanged in the area of
15 Breza. And this group of people, who were in the old primary school in
16 Podlugovi, we spent 70 days there. Then we were transferred to Svrake.
17 And the exchange was on the 15th of October, after I escaped from prison.
18 Q. What I want to know is for you to confirm that Breza and Visoko
19 municipalities were under Muslim control; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So the Crisis Staff of Ilijas municipality arranged this exchange
22 with the representatives of Breza and Visoko municipalities; is that
24 A. The exchange in June, you mean? I was not familiar with that
25 exchange because the people who were in the primary school in Ilijas,
1 well, I was not with them. I was at a different prison. I could see
2 from the hangar where we were located, I was able to see the road and the
3 buses, when a group of people who were exchanged to Breza were being
5 Q. My question is very simple. I would just like to you confirm --
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I can see Mr. Olmsted.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Well, Your Honours, it seems to call for
8 speculation. There's no foundation that this witness would have been
9 privy to negotiations between the Crisis Staff in Ilijas and any
10 authorities in Breza or Visoko, as he was - as he has already testified -
11 in detention at the time, at least until October 1992.
12 JUDGE HALL: Well, I suppose if the question is refined in terms
13 of what he is aware of or what he would have gotten a first-hand report
14 of ...
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that wasn't my
16 question. Mr. Olmsted anticipated my questions. And my question is a
17 lot simpler.
18 Q. Since you confirmed that Breza and Visoko municipalities were
19 under Muslim control, this exchange was done for Serbs who had been
20 captured in the -- that area?
21 A. I don't know whether they were exchanged. I just know that buses
22 went towards Breza. As for whether there was an actual exchange or not,
23 I don't know that.
24 Q. I'm not asking you to confirm, since you weren't there. What I
25 want to know is who these people would have been exchanged for.
1 Do you agree with me that these might have been Serbs from those
3 A. I don't know. I just know that the buses travelled along the
4 road, and we were told that these people were being taken towards Breza.
5 As for whether they were exchanged or released, I don't know what
6 happened to them.
7 Q. All right. If you don't know, that's fine.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, have no further
10 JUDGE HALL: Does the Zupljanin Defence have any questions of
11 this witness?
12 MR. KRGOVIC: No, Your Honour, we don't have a question for this
14 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
16 MR. OLMSTED: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we thank you for your assistance. You
20 are now released, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home.
21 Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, are you forgetting something?
24 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, I am, Your Honours. At this time the
25 Prosecution would move to admit the 92 ter package of this witness, which
1 includes his four statements and two associated exhibits.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, a memorandum will be distributed to
4 that effect.
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
6 Yes, Ms. Korner.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm back to deal with the motion that
8 Your Honours asked me to deal with.
9 The Defence requested, yesterday, that Witness 191, ST-191, be
10 re-called for further cross-examination on the basis of the disclosure of
11 a document on the 17th of May of this year. The document was one, as
12 Your Honours remarked in -- I think I'll just wait.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry, I was just checking
16 Your Honours, this was a document to which the Republic of Serbia
17 had put in an ex parte objection to its use. In fact, in June of 2009
18 Prosecution had responded, on 18th June, 2009, opposing the redaction
19 sought. It was redacted rather than an objection in whole. And, as I
20 say, Your Honours made an oral decision on the 17th of May.
21 Now, that was after Witness 191 had, in fact, completed his
23 However, aside from the unbelievable gap, even by the standards
24 of cases here, between the admission of that document, the testimony of
25 the witness, and this application, Your Honours, one of the reasons
1 asserted why he should be re-called is that another witness, ST-182,
2 produced a document which related to the meeting of the Teslic political
3 leadership with General Mladic, and the Defence asserts in paragraph 4
4 that ST-182 was not present at the meeting and therefore could not verify
5 the accuracy or veracity of the contents of the documents based on any
6 first-hand knowledge.
7 That is, in fact, incorrect in this sense, or -- firstly, the
8 witness told the Court that he obtained this information from a VRS
9 officer who was present at the meeting; and, second, he said that he'd
10 verified the information through other sources. And Your Honours will
11 find that in the transcript at pages 10947 through to 10951.
12 Your Honours have ordered the Prosecution to complete its
13 evidence, bar the two witnesses that have been agreed to call in January,
14 before December. It's unlikely that we can get him here before the close
15 of the case. But in the end result, having corrected what we think is a
16 slight misrepresentation of what the evidence was, we're going to leave
17 it in the hands of Your Honours to decide whether the witness should be
18 re-called for cross-examination.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So we now have your response,
20 Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER: Yep.
22 Your Honours, however, may I also mention, while I'm here and on
23 my feet, the question of the Status Conference. I have had communication
24 with the Defence for Stanisic, and they are agreeable, I think -- they're
25 agreed that the 13th of December would be suitable. We would almost
1 certainly complete all the evidence we have for next week. I haven't
2 received a response from the Zupljanin team. But, Your Honours, we
3 think, for obvious reasons, that the sooner in the week the
4 Status Conference can be held, the better.
5 So we leave it -- obviously it's a matter for Your Honours, but
6 we would suggest that's a suitable date.
7 JUDGE HALL: Of course, the -- we thought, from the last
8 communication that we had, in the terms of the flow of your witnesses,
9 that there may have been a spillover into that week. So I suppose the
10 13th is a tentative fixture which may very well slide to later in the
12 MS. KORNER: One of the witness we would have had next week is
13 one ST-161 who we withdrew this morning. So --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
15 MS. KORNER: I keep saying 161. 261. Thank you very much,
16 Your Honour.
17 So we think it improbable that it will go into the following
18 week. But I agree; it's a tentative fixture.
19 JUDGE HALL: And is that it for the day? I know that it's a
20 videolink scheduled for tomorrow.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right. That's why we can't go
22 any further today. That is it.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, anything on the 92 bis and the
25 summaries to be read?
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, at the moment, the person who gave me
2 the information wasn't available. We've been doing some research, and,
3 at the moment, Your Honours may well be right, and I may well have been
4 given duff information, and I may have to withdraw the application.
5 Although, Your Honour, even if not been done before, it is something we'd
6 ask Your Honours to consider. It's a way, at least, of the public
7 knowing what evidence is forming part of the Prosecution case.
8 JUDGE HALL: So we'll see. Thank you very much.
9 So we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning, in this
10 courtroom I believe we still are.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.18 a.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day
13 of December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.