Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18374

 1                           Thursday, 9 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

12     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  On

14     behalf of Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Ms. Tatjana Savic, and

15     Ms. Jessica Lacey.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

17     Aleksandar Aleksic, and Igor Pantelic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I've got a couple of administrative

21     matters to raise.  It's really one, in fact.

22             We received an e-mail yesterday - I don't know whether

23     Your Honours were informed about the correspondence which was copied

24     certainly to the Registry - that the witness would be fit to testify on

25     Monday.  Unfortunately, we received another e-mail today from VWS, also

Page 18375

 1     copied, I think, to the Registry, which says that, in fact, the witness

 2     is not as in good shape as had been anticipated.  He is still receiving

 3     intravenous antibiotics.  His leg is still apparently not properly

 4     recovered.  And so it looks like his medication and therapy are going to

 5     continue into Monday.  Which makes it unlikely, we feel, that he'll be

 6     able to give evidence on Monday.  Our suggestion is that we reverse the

 7     order that was suggested yesterday, deal with the Status Conference on

 8     Monday and hope that the witness will be fit to give evidence on

 9     Wednesday.

10             JUDGE HALL:  When we had suggested Wednesday, it was to allow

11     sufficient preparation in advance of the conference.  I expect that your

12     suggestion takes into consideration the -- well, assumes that the parties

13     would be prepared for Monday.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, yes.  I think -- can I say this - and,

15     of course, the Defence can make their representations - I think the real

16     matter, the gravamen, of the Status Conference will be to arrive at a

17     date when the Defence case will be expected to start and when

18     Your Honours will order the 65 ter list.  I mean, that's, I think, what

19     everybody needs to know before we break.

20             I've got a couple of other short matters to raise.  I will send

21     the list to the Legal Officers tomorrow morning.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Could we hear from the Defence as to their

23     disposition about moving the -- advancing the Status Conference from

24     Wednesday to Monday.

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, if it is convenient with the

Page 18376

 1     Trial Chamber, we agree with this proposal submitted by Ms. Korner.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we'll adapt to these

 3     changes and try to sufficiently prepare.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Ms. Korner, there was something else you had to raise?

 6             MS. KORNER:  No.  Well, I don't think so, Your Honour.  I think

 7     that was it.  I said "a couple of short matters," but, of course, I

 8     suppose, the two are connected.  I would, however, just mention one other

 9     outstanding motion leaving aside Witness 191 and that's the motion that

10     we filed some time ago about documents that have been MFI'd.  The reason

11     is, obviously, before we close our case, we'll have to deal with any

12     further documents that have been MFI'd during the proceedings and which

13     were not covered in our bar table motion.  We left those separately,

14     because we felt they came into a separate category.  And so it would help

15     enormously if we knew Your Honours' ruling on the earlier application.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I can say that that's in its final stages of

17     preparation.  Thank you.

18             So the witness is -- is the witness ready to be brought in?

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honour, he is.

20             Your Honours, just before he comes in.  Your Honours will recall

21     yesterday I mentioned that he had attached to his original witness

22     statement, and indeed gave evidence about in Brdjanin and Stakic,

23     photographs that he took at Trnopolje.  They're the only record, as it

24     were, the live record, other than the film that one sees and which I'm

25     going to show him from ITN of what was happening at Trnopolje camp.  And,

Page 18377

 1     additionally, he drew what Your Honours may feel was a very helpful

 2     sketch plan.  He's the major witness to talk about Trnopolje.  They're

 3     not on the 65 ter as I explained yesterday.  Until I was preparing for

 4     the witness late on, I hadn't appreciated that.  I thought there was no

 5     point in writing a motion, but my application still would be to be able

 6     to use the sketch plan and the photographs with him today.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, when you say to use them, just to use them

 8     not exhibit them?

 9             MS. KORNER:  No, no, exhibit them, Your Honours.  When I say

10     "use," I mean exhibit.  And there's no point in the photographs being

11     shown and the plan being used and not being exhibited.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So are you making that application now?

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I am.  I mentioned it yesterday, Your Honour.

14     I'm making the application now.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Could we -- is the -- does the Defence have a

16     position on this application that's now live?  You were alerted to it --

17     we were all alerted to it yesterday.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let us leave aside

19     for a moment the fact that the OTP announces this is the last witness who

20     can address the issues.  The OTP has been in the possession of these

21     documents, this evidence.  They knew about it when they put forward the

22     name of this witness to testify about adjudicated facts.  That was in

23     their initial motion in April this year.  Meaning the Prosecutor never

24     provided a sound reason for submitting this now.  They are submitting

25     this motion a day before the appearance of this witness.

Page 18378

 1             Therefore, we believe that this reason is not sufficient, just

 2     saying the witness will mostly be talking about Trnopolje.  The Defence

 3     had to be given notice of this much earlier on, when the witness's name

 4     was placed on the list, when the 65 ter proposal was first tabled, the

 5     addenda that were proposed.  Or at least as soon as the OTP decided who

 6     would be a viva voce witness and who would be appearing pursuant to

 7     92 bis.  And that is the reason we oppose this motion by the OTP.

 8             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. -- before I

 9     hear from Mr. Cvijetic, Mr. Krgovic, moving from the realm of "ought" in

10     which case there's probably likely to be no dispute, how are you

11     embarrassed by this late notice, in terms of the cross-examination that

12     you would have of this witness?  I think that that is the crucial

13     question.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the fact is we can't

15     examine these witnesses.  We didn't have the facts, we didn't check the

16     facts on the ground.  There are quite a number of statements after the

17     disclosure last night, the announcement by the OTP.  We tried to go

18     through all the witness statements about these photographs, how they were

19     taken, when the prints were made, the whole story, but we simply didn't

20     have the time to check the entire set of photographs.  And that's our

21     problem.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can I say this.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, could I hear from Mr. Cvijetic --

24             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... oh, I see, yes, you didn't

25     hear, because you asked Mr. Krgovic.  Sorry.

Page 18379

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, the same question that I asked

 2     Mr. Krgovic, the last question, how are you embarrassed in your being

 3     able to defend your client in the light of this late disclosure?

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to join my

 5     colleague, my learned friend Mr. Krgovic on this.  This is a relevant

 6     witness to the Zupljanin Defence.  The position that he has put forward

 7     is a joint position by both Defence teams.  His is the more relevant

 8     opinion because he will probably be asking more questions of this

 9     witness.  I wonder, as a matter of fact, if we can shall be asking this

10     witness any questions whatsoever.

11             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... [Previous translation

12     continues] ... can I just say this.  Of course, I accept that I should

13     have prepared this witness much earlier than I was able to do and that I

14     would have then realized that.  I -- as it so happens, I only had the

15     opportunity - for various reasons which I won't trouble Your Honours

16     with - to prepare him yesterday.

17             Your Honours, there's only one statement made by the witness.

18     The plans are attached to that statement.  The photographs, two of them,

19     in fact, you can see on the video which everybody in this court has seen,

20     but the remainder are also relevant.  They were disclosed to the Defence

21     in 2006.  One of the very first disclosures that we sent out.

22             For the life of me, and I don't think Mr. Krgovic can really say

23     how is he prejudiced.  It not that they directly implicate his client in

24     that they're photographs of his client at the camp or anything like that.

25     But, as I say, this is the last witness you're going to hear about

Page 18380

 1     Trnopolje.  He is the one who is able to describe in complete detail what

 2     was happening and what the camp was like.  And I think that Your Honours

 3     would be assisted by seeing the photographs and the plan and, of course,

 4     them being made an exhibit.

 5             It's Your Honours' task to have the best possible evidence in

 6     front of you, and this is it.  And we would suggest, absent any real

 7     prejudice that can be shown to the Defence, Your Honours should allow us

 8     to lead that evidence.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

12             JUDGE HALL:  It is of the view of the Trial Chamber that this

13     application -- the explanation given by the Prosecution in support of

14     this application does not show that they have exercised due diligence nor

15     is there sufficiently good cause shown for the admission of this new

16     evidence, and, therefore, we deny the motion.

17             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I simply want to say this.  This

18     is -- I -- I don't know how many times Your Honours have talked about due

19     diligence.  Your Honours, I repeat, and I'm not seeking to make you alter

20     your ruling, but it is our submission that Your Honours should have the

21     best evidence available before you, and unless there's a good reason,

22     other than punishing the Prosecution, then Your Honours should accede to

23     these applications.

24             And that's all I want to say.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Is the witness ready to be brought in?

Page 18381

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.  Would you please read

 3     the solemn declaration on the card that the usher is handing to you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 5             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

 6     and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  IDRIZ MERDZANIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Please be seated.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  And would you confirm that are you hearing me in a

12     language that you understand.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HALL:  I would begin by pointing out to you that the solemn

15     declaration that you have just made impose upon you an obligation to give

16     truthful testimony to the Tribunal.  And your -- should you give false or

17     misleading testimony, the Tribunal is empowered to impose the penalties

18     for perjury under the authority of the Statute which constitutes this

19     Tribunal.

20             Would you begin by telling us your name, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Idriz Merdzanic.

22             JUDGE HALL:  What is your date of birth, and what is your

23     ethnicity, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on 2nd of January, 1959,

25     and I'm a Bosniak.

Page 18382

 1             JUDGE HALL:  And what is or was your profession?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a doctor.  And I'm still a

 3     doctor.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Have you testified previously before this Tribunal or before any

 6     of the courts in the former -- the countries that comprise the former

 7     Yugoslavia?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified before this Tribunal --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I testified in

10     court, but I have never testified before the ICTY.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             I would briefly indicate to you the procedure in the trials

13     before this Tribunal, which are not radically different from procedures

14     elsewhere.  Namely, that you have been called as a witness, and the side

15     calling you begins.  In this case, it's the Prosecution.  Then the side

16     opposite would have questions in cross-examination.  The Prosecution

17     would have a right to ask questions arising out of what has come up in

18     cross-examination.  And the Bench itself may at any stage ask questions

19     of you by way of clarification.

20             It is expected, from what has been reported to us by counsel,

21     that your testimony would be completed before the Court rises at 7.00

22     this evening.  The -- the Court's day is divided into sessions of

23     90 minutes, which allows for the tapes that record the proceedings to be

24     changed, and that also allows for the convenience of yourself, counsel,

25     the Bench, and the support staff.  But notwithstanding those set breaks

Page 18383

 1     that I have indicated, if at any time you need to take a break, if you

 2     indicate it to us, we will, of course, accommodate you.

 3             And I would invite Ms. Korner to begin.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

 6        Q.   Doctor, let me start, first of all, with your testifying history,

 7     as it were.

 8             It was interpreted to us a moment ago that you testified in court

 9     but you've never testified before the ICTY.  So let's just clarify that.

10             It's right, isn't it, that you gave evidence in the case against

11     Milomir Stakic in - let me just get the date - September 2002?

12        A.   That's correct.  I understood the former Yugoslavia to mean that

13     I testified somewhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I did testify before

14     this Court in relation to the events that happened during the war.

15        Q.   I think you testified, as I say, in September 2002, in the case

16     against Stakic.  And then in November of the same year, in the case

17     against Radoslav Brdjanin.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And I think you've got also probably rare experience of giving

20     evidence in the High Court in London in a libel action that arose out of

21     the report that Penny Marshall, the ITN reporter, made of what happened

22     at Trnopolje.  And in respect, particularly, of whether or not the fence

23     that was shown in the video which we'll look at later was actually there

24     or not.

25             Is that right?

Page 18384

 1        A.   That's right.  In principle it was about the existence or the

 2     non-existence of that fence.

 3        Q.   And additionally you then -- you also made a statement in

 4     August of 2000 to an Office of the Prosecutor investigator.  And during

 5     the course of taking that statement, you drew various diagrams of

 6     Trnopolje and you also provided copies of photographs that had been taken

 7     by you or someone who was in Trnopolje with you, Azra Blazevic, of the

 8     conditions, including the condition of the room in which interrogations

 9     had taken place.

10             Is that right?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   All right.  First of all, Dr. Merdzanic, can I briefly deal with

13     your background, and then we'll move straight to the events of 1992.

14             You, in fact, attended the Faculty of Medicine in Banja Luka; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Between 1978 and 1986.  And on completing that part of your

18     education, did you do your compulsory military service with the JNA?

19        A.   I did.  I spent one year in the JNA.

20        Q.   And did you, on completion of your military service, get a job in

21     an outpatient clinic as a general practitioner in Prijedor?

22        A.   In 1988, a few months after I completed my military service, I

23     got a job in Prijedor.

24        Q.   And eventually were you given a permanent post at the

25     Prijedor Health Centre?

Page 18385

 1        A.   Yes, I was.  I was given a permanent job at the health centre.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, the Prijedor Health Centre - is this correct? -

 3     covered a number of different areas within the municipality of Prijedor,

 4     which included Trnopolje, Kozarac, Omarska, and Ljubija.  And other

 5     places.

 6        A.   That's correct.  They were outpatient centres which were part of

 7     the Prijedor Health Centre.  These were field outpatient centres.

 8        Q.   All right.  And in 1991, did you start working at one of the

 9     clinics which was part of the sawmill in Kozarac?

10        A.   First I worked in the field outpatient clinic in Trnopolje, and

11     then I was also assigned to a clinic for the employees in the sawmill in

12     Kozarac.

13             During the weekend, we were on duty service, and I did my duty

14     service in Kozarac at the outpatient centre.

15        Q.   Now, were you yourself living in Prijedor town?

16        A.   I lived in Prijedor, yes.

17        Q.   Up until the war started in Croatia, was there any difficulty or

18     animosity that you were aware of between the various ethnicities who

19     lived in Prijedor?

20        A.   Until before the war in the former Yugoslavia, I never noticed

21     any problems between the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims.  Either way, I,

22     personally, never had any problems.

23        Q.   Now I want to ask you specifically about Stojan Zupljanin.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this line

25     of questioning by Ms. Korner.  What's the connection between what the

Page 18386

 1     witness knows about Stojan Zupljanin and the adjudicated fact?  As he

 2     said at the beginning, he was called to testify about specific facts, and

 3     the Prosecutor should adhere to that decision by the Trial Chamber from

 4     June of this year.

 5             This is the fifth or sixth time that the Prosecution is trying to

 6     present evidence through the backdoor when witnesses were called to

 7     testify about specific facts and their testimony is limited, as is our

 8     cross-examination.  In this way, the Prosecution wants to introduce

 9     evidence through the backdoor, and the Defence does not have any

10     information that the witness would be testifying about these

11     circumstances.  This line of questions and this attitude by the

12     Prosecution is in opposition of the decision of the Trial Chamber that

13     the witnesses would be called to testify about specific adjudicated

14     facts.

15             MS. KORNER:  First of all, I gave notice in the proofing note

16     about this witness's knowledge of Stojan Zupljanin, which was sent to the

17     Defence last night at 7.45 and to the Trial Chamber as well.

18             Second, this witness is being called to deal with the attack on

19     Kozarac, which is Adjudicated Fact 844 through to 846, of which I also

20     gave notice, and part of that attack is the negotiations that took place

21     in order to try and prevent that attack with Stojan Zupljanin.

22             So it is not mere -- me merely asking for no good reason about

23     his knowledge of Stojan Zupljanin.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, in terms of the proofing note, that

25     couldn't enlarge the --

Page 18387

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm complaining about the complaint of

 2     lack of notice.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So it's the second part on which you're

 4     concentrating.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The proofing note is really neither here nor there

 7     in terms of the ruling of the Trial Chamber as to the limits of what this

 8     is about.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I agree.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

11             MS. KORNER:  But it is -- it is pertinent to notice.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Korner.

13             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, doctor, about that.  Could you tell us, did you

15     know Stojan Zupljanin before the war?

16        A.   Yes, I did.  I knew Mr. Zupljanin before the war.

17        Q.   All right.  And how did you know him?

18        A.   I started in Banja Luka at the aero club in -- and I flew

19     aeroplanes that didn't have any engines, and then I moved on to sports

20     aircraft.  And a few years before the war, Stojan Zupljanin was also a

21     member of this aero club.  So that's where we know each other from, the

22     club in Banja Luka.

23        Q.   Did you ever have any professional dealings with him as a police

24     officer?

25        A.   Professionally or officially, no.  We never had any contacts.

Page 18388

 1        Q.   All right.  And from your knowledge of him gained through both of

 2     you at this flying club, first of all, did you know what ethnicity he

 3     was?

 4        A.   Just as now, back then I couldn't tell by the name whether

 5     somebody was a Serb or a Croat.  I could recognise Bosniaks or Muslims by

 6     the names, because those names were a little more different.  But before

 7     the war, I never differentiated between people.

 8        Q.   All right.  And in all the time you knew him, up until 1992,

 9     obviously you -- when you were taken to Trnopolje, did you have -- did

10     you ever hear him express any kind of animosity to those who were not

11     Serb?

12        A.   I never noticed him to say anything against me or Muslims.  I --

13     I really can't say that.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's -- can we move, please, straight to the time

15     that Prijedor was taken over at the end of April.

16             Were you in Prijedor that day?

17        A.   I was in Prijedor when the army occupied Prijedor.  This was a

18     unit that had returned from the front in Croatia.

19        Q.   All right.  And were you able to get to work that day?

20        A.   That day I managed to call in to the health centre in Prijedor.

21     They had occupied all the positions in all important places in Prijedor.

22     So in the morning, when I set off to work, I saw that there were

23     check-points where they were checking the cars and identity cards and we

24     realized that Prijedor had been occupied by the army.  The health --

25     there was army in the health centre as well.

Page 18389

 1        Q.   Now, after that first day, did you carry on going to work at the

 2     health centre in Kozarac?

 3        A.   I believe the first day I didn't go at all, and I think that

 4     after that, I drove an ambulance to Trnopolje and to Kozarac.

 5        Q.   All right.  And were there check-points between Prijedor and

 6     Kozarac?

 7        A.   There were check-points between Prijedor and Kozarac.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us, are you able to remember - and please say so if

 9     you can't - who was manning the check-points?

10        A.   Men in military uniforms.

11        Q.   All right.  Can we then move, please, to shortly before the

12     events that took place in Kozarac.

13             Did you hear, or were you told, about ultimatums to the

14     inhabitants of Kozarac to surrender their weapons?

15        A.   I heard that there were negotiations between Prijedor and Kozarac

16     and a delegation from Prijedor and Banja Luka, which included

17     Mr. Zupljanin.  And I heard that an ultimatum was given at these

18     negotiations for Kozarac to surrender the weapons and for the police to

19     wear Serbian insignia or surrender.

20        Q.   All right.  And did you -- first of all I suppose I'll ask, who

21     did you hear this from?  Was it from a member of that delegation?

22        A.   No.  I think this was third-hand information from somebody who

23     had heard from somebody who was present at that meeting.  I think

24     Sadikovic, who was a doctor, a specialist, he attended that meeting.  And

25     I think that the man who I heard it from had heard it from Sadikovic.

Page 18390

 1        Q.   Did you hear when that ultimatum was to expire?  Whether a time

 2     and a date was given.

 3        A.   Yes.  Both the date and the time were specified.

 4        Q.   We know that the attack on Kozarac took place on the -- I think

 5     it's the 24th of May.  Was that the date that was specified?

 6        A.   As far as I heard, the date was the 24th, at noon.

 7        Q.   Before that date and that time, had you done anything in -- in

 8     respect of -- of talking to people about the surrender of weapons?

 9        A.   I didn't talk to anybody personally about the surrender of

10     weapons.

11        Q.   Did you talk to anybody -- well, first of all, perhaps I can deal

12     with it this way:  Did you know someone called Sead Cirkin?

13        A.   Sead Cirkin is somebody I saw in Kozarac, actually on the

14     suburbs.  When I was at the outpatient centre in Kozarac, I was told that

15     there was a man called Sead Cirkin who was an active military personnel

16     and who had a group of people with him who were armed and who were

17     preparing to defend Kozarac.  I asked a man to take me to see him.

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   And I talked to him, and I asked him whether things been

20     supplied, whether there were any directions for us on how to behave, what

21     we were to do with the wounded if there were any, and he didn't have any

22     plan.  In principle, he told me that I should organise things in the

23     outpatient centre as best we knew.  There was no plan for the medical

24     service.

25        Q.   All right.  All right.  On the day of the attack, what time did

Page 18391

 1     the attack start?

 2        A.   I think soon after noon.

 3        Q.   And where were you when the attack started?

 4        A.   I was at the outpatient centre in Kozarac.  There was a building

 5     there which had several storeys, and that's the building that housed the

 6     outpatient centre in Kozarac.

 7        Q.   At the time the attack started, how did you first become aware

 8     that there was an attack going on?

 9        A.   There was shelling everywhere around.  Shells fell on the

10     outpatient centre, in the yard.  All the cars which were parked there

11     were destroyed.

12        Q.   I'm afraid I can't show you any photographs, but can you tell us,

13     was -- the health centre on the outpatient centre, was there any marking

14     to show that it was a hospital or an outpatient ...

15        A.   It was the only building.  The other houses around were private

16     homes.  And everybody knew that this building was a hospital or an

17     outpatient centre in Kozarac.  And I believe that there was a red cross

18     on the roof.

19        Q.   All right.  Before the shelling started, had there been any

20     warning in the sense of somebody using a loud-hailer saying that if

21     people didn't surrender all their weapons now, they would be shelled?

22     Anything like that?

23        A.   We didn't hear anything at the outpatient centre.

24        Q.   So once the shelling started, what did you do?

25        A.   What would you do?  We hid.  We thought first that we could stay

Page 18392

 1     on the ground floor, but since all the windows were broken, we hid in the

 2     basement.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... how many -- roughly how many

 4     people were in that outpatient centre at the time the shelling started?

 5        A.   I had a list.  There were more than ten of us, I think.

 6        Q.   All right.  And were there casualties, as a result of the

 7     shelling?

 8        A.   Soon after the shelling, a few people were wounded.  One of them

 9     was a Serbian soldier called Lugar.  He had been shot in the stomach and

10     he was brought to the outpatient centre.

11             Another person was a civilian, but I don't know whether he had a

12     weapon.  He was injured in the chest.

13             And then they brought in one other man who was already dead.

14        Q.   All right.  How long did the shelling go on?

15        A.   Until the next morning.

16        Q.   Other than those people that you've told us about, were there any

17     other injured who, during the course of those -- that shelling which went

18     on until the next morning, came to your clinic?

19        A.   Because of the shelling, not many people could come to the health

20     centre because it was very dangerous to go outside.  I recall these two

21     men because they had severe injuries and they couldn't walk on their own.

22             There was another young man, I think.  A shrapnel almost cut off

23     his toe.  It was hanging just by the skin.

24        Q.   Now, you told us you were hiding in the basement.  Eventually,

25     did you move out?

Page 18393

 1        A.   The next morning, the shelling was suspended for a short time,

 2     for a few hours, so we used this time to move the outpatient centre to

 3     the north, in the direction of Mount Kozara, on the outskirts of town.

 4     We moved it to a house which was protected by the hill so shells couldn't

 5     land there.

 6        Q.   Now, when you were there, did you receive other casualties?

 7        A.   There were several casualties there.  Unfortunately, two of them

 8     were very young children.

 9        Q.   Did you try to get any assistance for them?

10        A.   We didn't have the conditions.  There was nothing we could do.

11        Q.   Doctor, where you were, were there -- where you had moved the

12     clinic to, were there any other part of the authorities at that building?

13        A.   That building housed the police as well.  They had a police car

14     there.

15        Q.   All right.  Did you ask them for any kind of assistance?

16        A.   I tried, by using a radio station which the police used.  I

17     introduced myself and I asked them to allow us to take the injured to

18     Prijedor.

19        Q.   And did they allow you to do that?

20        A.   No, they didn't.

21        Q.   All right.  And who had you been -- and who were you talking to?

22        A.   I don't know who it was.  But it was the same radio station which

23     was used to agree the surrender.

24        Q.   All right.  You may not know the person that you spoke to, but

25     did you understand from what part of the authorities they represented,

Page 18394

 1     what part of the authorities they were?

 2        A.   I think it was the army.

 3        Q.   All right.  Doctor, I'm sorry to have to ask you about these

 4     events again, but, as you know, it's quite important.

 5             All right.  When they -- when you spoke to somebody, whether it

 6     was the army or someone else, what sort of language did they use when

 7     they told you that you -- that you couldn't move the children?

 8        A.   I think they said, Just go ahead and die, Balija.  We'd kill you

 9     soon enough anyway.

10        Q.   All right.  Having been refused this assistance, what -- what did

11     you decide to do?

12        A.   Nothing.  I went back.  We were in the basement, and the police

13     were up above us, on the first floor.  So we just waited.

14        Q.   And how long did you remain there?

15        A.   Until the next day.

16        Q.   All right.  And how did you come to leave?

17        A.   The police managed to broker the surrender of Kozarac.  They

18     informed us that it had been agreed that the wounded would be the first

19     to be allowed to leave.  And then the police and the civilians would also

20     be allowed to leave Kozarac two by two.

21        Q.   So did you make the preparations for -- for leaving?

22        A.   We organised for the wounded to use those trucks owned by Azra's

23     husband.  There was Lugar there, another civilian who had sustained an

24     injury to his chest, and a child whose leg had been shattered.  The

25     other, a little girl who was there, had died.

Page 18395

 1        Q.   Now, you've mentioned Azra.  Who was that?

 2        A.   Azra Blasavic was a vet who was there with us throughout.

 3        Q.   Now, before you actually left, did anybody arrive?

 4        A.   What do you mean?  No one arrived.

 5        Q.   All right.  Where did you -- all right.  So you left, did you, in

 6     the truck; and where did you go?

 7        A.   No.  Azra's husband left with the truck and the wounded.  The

 8     rest of us went back to the clinic in Kozarac.

 9        Q.   All right.  At the clinic in Kozarac, did anyone arrive?

10        A.   After that, three uniformed men arrived.

11        Q.   Can you describe, please, the uniforms that were worn by these

12     men.

13        A.   Two of them wore camouflage.  One of them wore a red beret.  And

14     a third, a blue camouflage uniform.  The latter was called Skrbic,

15     Dragan Skrbic.

16        Q.   I'd like to you have a look please, first of all, at

17     Exhibit P1033.

18             MS. KORNER:  Perhaps we can just blow it up a bit.  Yeah.

19        Q.   You said one of them was camouflage with a red beret.  Is that

20     the sort uniform and red beret that you're talking about?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's the uniform.

22        Q.   Thank you.  All right.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, do we have a tab number for this

24     exhibit, please?

25             MS. KORNER:  It's tab ... tab ...

Page 18396

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have it as 41.  Thank you.

 2             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 3        Q.   And now could you have a look, please, at a short clip from a

 4     video which is V000-8836, which is tab ...

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. KORNER:  Stop there.

 8        Q.   You say one of them was wearing blue camouflage.  Is that the

 9     sort of uniform that you're describing?

10        A.   Yes, it is.  Just like that.  They all had the same arm-band, I

11     think, on the left arm.  The same colour.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I said -- I think that's P -- tab 42.

14     Sorry, P1393.

15        Q.   Right.  Now, you say the same arm-bands.  Were -- was just the

16     man with the blue camouflage wearing an arm-band or all of them?

17        A.   All of them.  All the soldiers who came to Kozarac wore one.

18        Q.   All right.  Doctor, I know you're a bit upset.  Would you like to

19     take a break now, or are you happy to carry on for a bit longer?

20        A.   I'm ready to press on.  Thank you.

21        Q.   All right.  So these three people arrived in uniform.  And what

22     did they do?

23        A.   The one with the red beret was very nervous.  He kept saying we

24     should all be shot.  And then they noticed Goga, who wore a name tag on

25     her overcoat.  She was a Serb, and they led her across the way from the

Page 18397

 1     rest of the group and spoke to her.  Dragan Skrbic told us to wait there

 2     until she was back.  And he was gone for some time.  When he was back, he

 3     said a truck would be coming along and we were to load all of our things

 4     onto that truck and would then be taken away.  But that was all he said.

 5        Q.   And did a truck arrive?

 6        A.   Yes.  We loaded all of our medicine that we had in the clinic

 7     onto it.  And then we were marched one by one from the clinic to what was

 8     virtually a crossing, cross-roads, in Kozarac.  We stood there for a

 9     short time, waiting.

10        Q.   When you were marched, is that the cross-roads that's at the end

11     of Kozarac with the -- the junction with the Prijedor road?

12        A.   No.  This is a junction within Kozarac itself.

13        Q.   All right.  What could you see happening in the -- in the town of

14     Kozarac?

15        A.   In the town itself, there were very many soldiers.  They went

16     into houses; they searched these houses; they tried to get into cars and

17     ignite the engines.  Some of them were just standing.  As soon as we

18     reached the junction in Kozarac, there were two tanks there.  The place

19     was teeming with soldiers, some moving and some stationery.

20        Q.   The tanks that you saw there, what kind of tanks were they?  Were

21     you able -- because of your military service were you able to identify

22     them?

23        A.   Those were military tanks.  I'm not sure about the type or make.

24        Q.   Apart from tanks, did you see any other kind of vehicles that

25     belonged to either the police or the army?

Page 18398

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  I object to that.  I mean, it's leading, obviously.

 2             MS. KORNER:  I don't think it is, Your Honours.  I'm asking

 3     whether he saw any other vehicles that belonged to either the police or

 4     the army.  I cannot, for the life of me, see why that's leading.  He's

 5     just described tanks which he said were army.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Sorry, doctor.  Can you answer that?  Did you see any other

 9     vehicles that were either police or army vehicles?

10        A.   I can't say with certainty right now.

11        Q.   That's fine.

12             What about damage?  You've explained how the place was shelled

13     for effectively nearly 24 hours.  What sort of damage had been done by

14     the shelling?

15        A.   There were branches from trees lying on the ground.  Pock marks

16     on the walls of some of the surrounding houses.  Holes went through the

17     roofs.  Pock marks on the road as well from bits of shrapnel.  And shells

18     exploding, leaving holes in the road, some small and some bigger.  There

19     was a lot of that.

20        Q.   We know -- we know that Kozarac had, I think, at least two

21     mosques.  Did you see whether they'd been damaged during this?

22        A.   I wasn't paying attention.  Those were further north.  I think

23     one is across the road from the house where we were, and I believe it was

24     a sheltered house, but I'm not certain.

25        Q.   That's fine.  All right.  There you are at the cross-roads from

Page 18399

 1     Kozarac; where did you go from there?

 2        A.   After a while, a military jeep arrived.  But before they put us

 3     into that jeep, a soldier came up to Bahonjic, Nihad, our ambulance

 4     driver, and ID'd him.  When he showed his ID, the other man took hem

 5     away.  Right after, the military jeep arrived.  We were told to get into

 6     it.  I simply asked in passing what had become of Nihad Bahonjic and they

 7     said they were taking care of him.  We headed out in that jeep, left

 8     Kozarac, and took a right turn towards Prijedor.

 9        Q.   Now, what happened to Nihad Bahonjic, who had been taken off by

10     these soldiers?

11        A.   We heard shots.  I don't know whether that was when they killed

12     him or not.  But no one ever saw him again.  I don't even know whether

13     his body was ever found.

14        Q.   All right.  So you go towards Prijedor, and where do you end up?

15        A.   Basically we got as far as a cafe further down the road on the

16     left-hand side.  We took a turn there and stopped.  There were many

17     soldiers in that cafe, even high-ranking officers; many of them, in fact.

18     We waited there.  We got out of the jeep.  Soon a bus arrived full of

19     women and children, coming from Prijedor.  There was this one man whose

20     name was Husidic; they led him away.  I heard they accused him of being a

21     member of the Green Berets and they wanted to take him away, but his wife

22     was there with two young children and she pleaded with them to let him

23     go.  We confirmed that that wasn't true.  Then we said that there was a

24     man in the clinic with us, the highest-ranking man, and he was to get on

25     the bus with us.  But then they went back for him and took him away to

Page 18400

 1     Omarska.

 2        Q.   And how did you learn that he had been taken to Omarska?

 3        A.   Well, as far as our team was concerned, when we all stuck

 4     together, they took him, Dr. Pasic, and Dr. Mensur Kusuran.  They took

 5     them to Omarska.  They were with us in the clinic.  They came to the

 6     clinic and took them away at different points in time.

 7        Q.   All right.  Sorry, I think we -- it may be me, but there's slight

 8     confusion going on.

 9             You talked about the man who they were accusing of being a

10     Green Beret.  And --

11        A.   The Green Berets.

12        Q.   Do you mean -- did he come with you - as you were going to tell

13     us - to Trnopolje and then was he taken, or was he taken away at that

14     stage?

15        A.   No.  He was first released and allowed to get on that bus with

16     us.  He arrived with us in Trnopolje, and then they took him from there

17     to Omarska.

18        Q.   All right.  And the doctors that you've named, perhaps you could

19     name then again because it doesn't seem to have gone on to the LiveNote.

20             Who were the two doctors?

21        A.   Two doctors:  Dr. Jusuf Pasic and Dr. Mensur Kusuran.

22        Q.   You said they, too, were taken away at different times.  Is that,

23     again, from Trnopolje?

24        A.   From Trnopolje.  Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   So can we just establish - and I should have asked you

Page 18401

 1     earlier - which of you from the clinic had been taken by these armed men

 2     to the cafe.  Yourself and who else?

 3        A.   I'm not sure I understand what you're asking me.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... all right.  You've told us

 5     these soldiers arrived -- or these -- not soldiers.  These armed men

 6     arrived at your clinic and that they then --

 7        A.   Yes, in Kozarac.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... in Kozarac.  Then you went

 9     to this cross-roads and then you were picked up and taken to the cafe.

10     Who was with you?

11        A.   They took us to that cafe in a military jeep.  We didn't actually

12     enter there.  We were standing by the road.  There is another road

13     forking off there, a dirt track not an asphalt road, that leaves the

14     asphalt road at one point and heads out towards Trnopolje.  We were all

15     standing there in a group.

16        Q.   All right.  And what I'm just trying to get at - and it's my

17     fault; I'm obviously not making myself clear - is when you say "they took

18     us," who did they take?  Who were the other people who was take -- who

19     were taken, apart from yourself?

20        A.   The entire team from Kozarac except for Nihad Bahonjic.  Not

21     Nihad Bahonjic.  We were all taken together.  Azra, the vet; another vet

22     who was there; Dzolagic; Mujo and Babica; Goga, the Serb; a lady named

23     Lejla; Husidic; a wife and husband.

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... all right.  Had any of you

25     got any weapons of any kind?

Page 18402

 1        A.   No, no weapons at all.

 2        Q.   Did anybody, of the people who had taken you there, search you to

 3     see if you had weapons?

 4        A.   Azra Blazevic was the only one who had a back-pack.  The others

 5     had nothing at all.  I can't remember, but I think perhaps back in

 6     Kozarac they checked the back-pack.

 7        Q.   All right.  Just before we break, then, eventually, were you

 8     taken on this bus to Trnopolje?

 9        A.   That's right.  We got onto the bus, and there were mostly women

10     and children there.  From there, we were taken straight to Trnopolje.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that probably is a sensible place to

12     break, I mean, because I'm going to deal with Trnopolje.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             So we take the break, and we would resume in 20 minutes.

15             Thank you.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I just ask, does your ruling mean

21     that I can't show him the photographs?

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, Ms. Korner.  Since they not on the

24     65 ter list and will not be admitted to the 65 ter list, you may show

25     them and confront the witness with them, but that's it.

Page 18403

 1             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, could we now deal with Trnopolje.

 4             When you got there that first day, you obviously knew Trnopolje

 5     because there was a clinic there.  Was there anything to show why you'd

 6     been brought there?

 7        A.   Not that I noticed.  Except there were many soldiers around, many

 8     women and children.  But that was the extent of what I noticed.

 9        Q.   Was there anything to show that this was a place where people

10     were going to be staying?  Let's use a neutral word for the time being.

11        A.   No, nothing.

12        Q.   All right.  When you arrived there, where did you go?

13        A.   We arrived there by bus, and we stopped on a road that is - how

14     shall I put it? - south or south-west of Prijedor in the direction of

15     Trnopolje, the bus stopped there.  And there's a path that takes you to

16     that place.  To the right, there was some soldiers standing or sitting,

17     and we headed towards this building, all of the people who were on the

18     bus.

19             There were those of us from the clinic who wore our white coats.

20     Rade Baltic was there wearing civilian clothes.  He knew me because he

21     used to be a patient of mine.  They said that all of us wearing doctor's

22     coats should go to the clinic in Trnopolje.

23        Q.   Right.  Now, I'm going to ask to you look at the photograph,

24     please.  And I'm afraid it's a modern photograph, because I can't show

25     you any of the earlier ones.

Page 18404

 1             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up on the screen, please -- just a

 2     moment.  Let me just check for a moment which is the right one.  Yes.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MS. KORNER:  Yes, it's ... 3419.85, tab 11.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, while the photo is coming up.

 6             Doctor, when you say "soldiers," "there were many soldiers

 7     around," do you mean military or do you mean armoured men in general?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armed men wearing military

 9     uniforms.  And I think those people used to be civilians before then.

10     One of them recognised me.  It was a young lad who was at the airport in

11     Prijedor and so was his father.  He was not active-duty military

12     personnel.  Those were men who were obviously mobilized for purposes of

13     war.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MS. KORNER:  Actually, I'm told -- I'm sorry, thank you.

16        Q.   Well, let's stick with that one for the moment.  Then I can show

17     you one that's closer to the time we're talking about, because it was on

18     our list.

19             Can you indicated there - you will be given a pen by the usher

20     and you're able to draw on the screen - whether we can -- this is -- this

21     was only taken last year, but whether -- where the clinic was.

22             I'm sorry.  Stop that.

23             This is an overhead view of Trnopolje as it is, effectively,

24     today.  Did it look the same in 1992?

25        A.   Yes, roughly the same.

Page 18405

 1        Q.   All right.  And can you indicate, please, by drawing a circle,

 2     where exactly the camp was.  What buildings were included in what became

 3     the Trnopolje camp.

 4        A.   This is the school building.  Should I make a marking here?

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... yes, could you -- could you

 6     mark A so we can -- could you write the letter A as the school building.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   This was the courtyard of the school.  The clinic is here.  And

10     this is the hall.  And what you see here is the local commune building.

11     This was a shop where you could buy construction material.  At different

12     times, this area here served different purposes.  At some points in time,

13     it belonged to the camp, at some points it didn't.  It was like this,

14     roughly speak.

15        Q.   Okay.  Could you mark B by the clinic; and C by the hall.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And then the shop, could you mark D.

18        A.   Yes, sure.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now I want to deal with this point

20     straight away.  When you arrived, you told us there was nothing to

21     indicate this was a place that people were going to be staying in.  At

22     any stage, was -- was something put up to show that this was a camp?

23        A.   Trnopolje camp was, in a way, a dynamic place, because things

24     kept changing there.  It was only at one point in time, just before the

25     journalists came, that Keraterm camp had been disbanded all together, and

Page 18406

 1     Omarska to some extent, too.  And some of the people there were

 2     transferred to Trnopolje, so a temporary fence was built and was soon

 3     pulled back down after it appeared on TV all over the place.

 4        Q.   Right.  And we're going to see that fence eventually.

 5             Did the fence follow the lines that you've drawn to indicate the

 6     area which was the camp?

 7        A.   No, it didn't.

 8        Q.   Where did -- it may be a bit difficult, but can you indicate

 9     where the fence was when it was up?  If you're finding it too

10     difficult -- I know you did a diagram at the time, doctor, but it would

11     help if you could just indicate --

12        A.   No problem at all.  No problem at all.  I can do it on this

13     image.

14             There was already a fence here.  The shop that was there already

15     had a fence.  And when they set up the fence, they built one from this

16     fence to the end of the hall, and then this area there was also fenced

17     off.  That was the only fence that stood for a short time.  The others

18     were already in existence.  The school had a fence, which was very low;

19     and then there was a fence in front of the clinic, which was also rather

20     low.

21        Q.   All right.  Yes, thank you very much, doctor.  That's all I'm

22     going to ask you about that photograph.

23             MS. KORNER:  Could that be separately exhibited, Your Honour,

24     then, please.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 18407

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1770, Your Honours.

 2             MS. KORNER:  I think Mr. Aleksic wants to say something.

 3             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  Now

 4     it's already been given an exhibit number.  It might be good that the

 5     area that the doctor marked as having a fence should receive a different

 6     number so that it's clear.  Or maybe it should be marked with a different

 7     colour or have the letter F so we would know what's what.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I did think about that, but I think

 9     it's pretty clear.  But, I mean, we could --

10        Q.   Doctor, can you -- where you drew that fence which we can see

11     surrounding it, can you just mark the letter F to the right-hand side.

12        A.   Do you mean the fence that was in existence before or the one

13     that was constructed?

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... no, the one that was

15     constructed, please, which you marked for us.

16        A.   The one that was constructed is this area here.  And this area

17     here, on this side.  The fence lower down was already in existence.

18        Q.   All right.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Is there another colour available that -- although

20     he's already marked it in red, if there's another colour available, if he

21     just follows the same line, perhaps that would ...

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the constructed fence is this

24     area and this area.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 18408

 1        Q.   Yes, that's very helpful.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Thank you, doctor.  All right.

 4             And can we just very quickly have a look, please, at a photograph

 5     that, as I say, is -- was taken nearer the time.  And that's 0 -- sorry,

 6     2483, which is tab 3.

 7             MS. KORNER:  65 ter 2483.

 8             Anybody?  Is it ... I don't really want -- oh.

 9        Q.   Doctor, the two buildings there that we can see in the

10     foreground, can you just identify those for us, please.

11        A.   The one on the right is the school in Trnopolje; and, on the

12     left, in the front you can see the shop, the clinic, the local commune on

13     the first floor, the sports club.  And behind it you can see the hall,

14     the hall that was there.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

17     please.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1771, Your Honours.

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.

21        Q.   Now, doctor, at what stage -- you arrived towards the end of May,

22     obviously, because it was a couple of days after the shelling.  At what

23     stage did Trnopolje become this camp?

24        A.   We noticed that more and more women and children arrived each day

25     and that nobody was leaving.  The smaller number of men who were there

Page 18409

 1     were separated and placed in the school.  And eventually, when there were

 2     loads of people and you were unable to fit any more in, convoys were

 3     organised.  And this convoy went from Trnopolje to move these people

 4     towards Sarajevo through the territory of Doboj.

 5             In principle, already after a few days, since there was army

 6     around and there were check-points around, there was no freedom of

 7     movement; it was not possible to enter or leave without being checked.

 8     So we realized and it became clear to us that it was what became called a

 9     camp, or a prison.  There was no freedom of movement.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, you've said that more and more women and

11     children arrived.  How were they arriving at the camp at the -- at

12     Trnopolje?

13        A.   They were most frequently brought in by buses.

14        Q.   You say that it became a camp or a prison.  There was no freedom

15     of movement.  Were people allowed to leave Trnopolje if they wanted to?

16     For example, yourself.  Did you want to stay in Trnopolje?

17        A.   I was not allowed to leave Trnopolje.

18        Q.   What about other people?  You've told us that people were taken

19     out, convoys were organised.  What about the other men who were there,

20     were they allowed to leave?

21        A.   Only women and children and people over the age of 65, who were

22     not able-bodied, to leave the camp.  Those who were able-bodied had to

23     stay.  Only very few such people came to Trnopolje.

24             There was something called the mopping up of villages.  They

25     would surround a village, and army or police - I don't know who - would

Page 18410

 1     enter the village; they would force the people out of their homes; line

 2     them up; single out the women, children, and elderly on one side; they

 3     would be sent to Trnopolje.  Some of these people were killed or are

 4     missing.  Some were taken to Keraterm.  Some to Omarska.  And a smaller

 5     group of people who either had some connections or somebody helped them,

 6     a Serb helped them, were sent to Trnopolje because that was deemed to be

 7     the best place for men to be.  They allowed men to leave the camp only

 8     after the visit by the journalists.

 9        Q.   All right.

10        A.   And one more thing - I'm sorry.  Those who came to Trnopolje,

11     those men who came to Trnopolje, were still sometimes called out by name

12     and they would be taken to Omarska or somewhere else or they were beaten.

13     So not everybody who came to Trnopolje was safe.

14        Q.   Now, you said that you weren't allowed to leave.  There were

15     check-points.  What else was preventing you from leaving?  Were there

16     guards at this place?

17        A.   Of course.  At the check-points and the drawing that I made

18     previously, there were check-points there guarded by armed men, by guards

19     who had weapons.  These guards changed every few weeks, and new people

20     would come every few weeks.  Major Kuruzovic, who came a few days after

21     the first days, stayed the same, and a few other people stayed along with

22     him.

23        Q.   What about -- you told us about guards.  Were the guards armed?

24        A.   Of course they were armed.

25        Q.   Were those personal arms?  In other words, rifles or the like, or

Page 18411

 1     were there other weapons there?

 2        A.   At the check-points, there were other weapons as well.  But it

 3     depended on the unit that was there to guard the camp.

 4        Q.   All right.  And were you -- do you know who these men were?  I

 5     mean, you say they were uniformed -- or I don't think you say,

 6     actually -- you say they were guards.  Do you know where they came from?

 7        A.   One group which rotated more frequently than the others were from

 8     the neighbouring villages.  But there were others as well who, when they

 9     came to rest from the front, would be dispatched there.  For a while they

10     all were sent to the front, so some older people were brought in.  They

11     were mainly men who had been mobilized, not active, professional military

12     personnel.

13        Q.   All right.  Yes, sorry, I'm just thinking for a moment.

14             Did you -- there were check-points, you say.  Were there any

15     check-points or any armed people within the area of the camp itself?

16        A.   In the camp, inside the circle that I drew, there weren't any.

17     Only around.

18        Q.   Can I then turn, please, to the conditions -- sorry, the convoys

19     that you talked about.

20             How did people leave the camp?  In what sort of transport?

21        A.   We usually heard a day before that a convoy would go the next

22     day.  Then reinforcement would arrive.  A man called Beric came with

23     them.  And then they moved from the camp towards the railway station.

24     They were lined up.  And then the women and the children walked along the

25     middle of the street, two by two, and they checked to make sure that

Page 18412

 1     there were no men in these groups.  If there was somebody who had a good

 2     friend who was a Serb, then they would manage to have a man included.

 3     And then these people were loaded onto cattle wagons.

 4        Q.   Right.  So this was at the station, was it?

 5        A.   Yes.  At Trnopolje.

 6        Q.   And you say you were on cattle wagons.  Was there seating in

 7     them?

 8        A.   No, there wasn't.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I see "temperature" has come up on the screen.  Was

10     there seating in "them," I asked, at line 8.

11        Q.   And how full were these cattle wagons?

12        A.   I replied already.  Of course, they tried to get as many people

13     in there as they could.

14        Q.   And what was the weather like at this time of year?

15        A.   It was summer down there, so it was very, very hot.

16        Q.   All right.  Let's deal with the conditions that were at Trnopolje

17     until the journalists and then the ICRC arrived.

18             Food.  Was that supplied by the guards or Major Kuruzovic?

19        A.   There was no organised food distribution.  But in the beginning,

20     they allowed the locals from the neighbouring places to bring food to the

21     people in the camp.  There was some Serbs who brought food.

22        Q.   All right.  You say "in the beginning they allowed locals ..."

23     How long did that go on that?

24        A.   That went on until these locals were forced out of their homes

25     and expelled.

Page 18413

 1        Q.   All right.  So how was food provided thereafter?

 2        A.   At the end of May, the Serbian Red Cross arrived, and we managed

 3     to arrange through them to have milk brought in for young children, and

 4     they collected money from people who were in the camp and then they

 5     bought bread, which they brought in the next day.  And then they

 6     distributed this bread to the people who had given money for it.

 7             At one point -- this was all at different points in time, but at

 8     one point they organised sort of a military kitchen.  There was a

 9     makeshift stove on which it was possible to cook.  However, this was

10     nothing for that large number of people.  And afterwards, when the

11     International Red Cross arrived, then we had food regularly.

12        Q.   All right.  And we may as well get the date.  When did the

13     International Red Cross arrive?

14        A.   In mid-August.

15        Q.   What about accommodation?  Was there sufficient rooms in the

16     buildings that you've shown us to accommodate these people?

17        A.   When they would empty the camp after a convoy would leave, they

18     would start bringing in more and more people, so then space would run

19     out.  At one point, some people had to sleep outside on the ground.

20        Q.   Sanitary facilities - running water, toilets, baths - did they

21     exist?

22        A.   There were no bathrooms, of course.  We only had running water

23     for the first two or three days, but it was dirty so it was cut off.  The

24     toilets in the school were soon blocked, so they dug latrines outdoors

25     where you could then use the toilet.  They constructed little cubicles.

Page 18414

 1        Q.   All right.  Was that sufficient for when the camp was full,

 2     before convoys took them off?

 3        A.   Of course not.

 4        Q.   Medical supplies.  You told us that before you left Kozarac you

 5     had taken such medical supplies as you could from the clinic.  Were you

 6     given more?

 7        A.   No.  No, that's not correct.  I said that we loaded all the

 8     medicine from Kozarac on the truck, but they drove off with that.  We

 9     never saw any of that medicine again.  We didn't have any medical

10     supplies.

11        Q.   All right.  Did you treat people at the clinic?  In -- sorry, in

12     Trnopolje, not in Kozarac.

13        A.   As best we could, using the supplies that we had at the clinic.

14     We had very limited supplies.  Some medicine was left over.  We sometimes

15     received things from the locals.  And when the International Red Cross

16     arrived, they talked to me and asked me what I needed, so then they would

17     bring things.  Dusko Ivic, a doctor, visited the camp, and a man called

18     Mico who was a technician.  He was a Serb.  And they brought us some

19     powder against lice so those who had lice could use the powder.

20        Q.   Now, what sort of injuries were you treating at your clinic in

21     Trnopolje?

22        A.   As for injuries, they were just injuries sustained during

23     beatings and injuries caused by knives.

24        Q.   When were the beatings taking place?  And who was doing the

25     beating?

Page 18415

 1        A.   Most of the beatings in that period before the arrival of the

 2     journalists and the arrival of the International Red Cross happened then.

 3     Later, they were very rare.  Uniformed people would always come.  Some of

 4     them we knew and some of them we didn't.

 5        Q.   And what would they do?

 6        A.   They either brought themselves or they would call people out by

 7     their names, take them into a room.  It was one room where these people

 8     were brought.  They might have been taken elsewhere as well, but I don't

 9     know that, and that's where they were beaten.  Afterwards these people

10     were most frequently taken away.  A smaller number of them were brought

11     to us to see whether there was anything that we could do for them.

12        Q.   And the room that they were being taken to, where was that?

13        A.   It was in the clinic.

14        Q.   Now, at various stages, were photographs taken of what the room

15     looked like and of some of the beaten people?

16        A.   Yes.  We managed to make a very, very small number of such

17     photographs.

18        Q.   Was this a camera that -- that -- that Azra Blazevic had?

19        A.   Yes.  It was Azra Blazevic's camera.  And we hid it in a water

20     tank because there was no water.

21        Q.   And, eventually, as we'll see when we watch the video, were you

22     able to smuggle out a film with Penny Marshall and the ITN crew?

23        A.   When Penny Marshall visited for the first time, we managed to

24     give her the camera.  She wanted to take out the film and return the

25     camera, but we were afraid that they would find it, so we asked her to

Page 18416

 1     take it away.

 2        Q.   Can I ask you, please, now to have a look at just some of the

 3     photographs.

 4             MS. KORNER:  First of all, could we have a look at, I think it's

 5     tab 20, and the number that it was given, 10611, please.

 6        Q.   What does that show us, Dr. Merdzanic?

 7        A.   That's the room where the people were beaten.

 8             On one occasion, we managed to take a photo so that you could see

 9     the blood.

10        Q.   And if we look, please, at the next one, which I think is the

11     same; it's 10612.

12        A.   It's the same room from another angle.

13        Q.   And can we look, finally, I think, at two -- sorry.  It's 10613.

14             That's, as we'll see, the one that was particularly displayed on

15     the video.  Who is that young man?

16        A.   That's Nedjo, who they beat.  Nedjo Jakupovic.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Doctor, if you need to take a break, we will, of

18     course, accommodate you.

19             Should we take a five-minutes' break?

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think it might be -- well, I -- I'm

21     not -- if I can just show him the next photographs.  Well, actually, I

22     don't think I need bother.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let me hear from --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's all right.  We can

25     continue.  We can continue.

Page 18417

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Thank you.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Thank you very much, doctor.  I'm not going to ask you to look at

 4     any more photographs because we'll see those later in the video.

 5             These beatings that took place in this room, were people being

 6     questioned whilst they were at Trnopolje?  Anybody.

 7        A.   I know that some were questioned.  And I have no idea why some of

 8     the others were beaten.  We weren't there.  I know about the ones they

 9     brought over to us to have a look.  But they would always accuse them of

10     something or other.

11        Q.   Now, apart from beatings, were there any deaths as a result of

12     this kind of violence?

13        A.   Yes.  I can't remember the name; it's somewhere in my statement,

14     the person's name.  There were many more of those whom they would first

15     beat and take away somewhere outside the camp to shoot them.

16        Q.   Did you know a family called Foric?

17        A.   No, not personally.  I do, however, know that one day they were

18     looking for someone named Foric.  They took them away, took them down the

19     road to the railway station and killed them there.  There were five or

20     six persons involved in that.

21        Q.   And who did you hear that from?

22        A.   I saw them being taken away.  Azra said that they had killed

23     them, as well as other inmates.  I think it was Curkus, on behalf of the

24     Serbian Red Cross, who organised to bury their bodies.

25        Q.   What about some people called Murgic?

Page 18418

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 2     know how -- what this has to do with adjudicated facts and which

 3     particular adjudicated fact this is in relation to, this isolated

 4     incident that Ms. Korner is addressing now.  I have not been able to

 5     establish any links between this and any of the adjudicated facts.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner.

 7             MS. KORNER:  I'm just finding it, thank you, Your Honour, if

 8     Your Honours require me to answer this.

 9             Your Honours, if you look at Adjudicated Fact 1031.  On or about

10     the 1st of October, 1992, people were removed from Trnopolje camp on

11     signing an agreement to relinquish all of their material goods - crossed

12     out, in other words - thus the Trnopolje camp was the culmination of the

13     campaign of ethnic cleansing ... since those Muslims and Croats were not

14     killed at Omarska or Keraterm camps but were from Trnopolje ... deported

15     from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16             Your Honour, in our submission, ethnic cleansing includes

17     killings in camps.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  But how does this -- how -- how does this --

19     this enter the particulars of the family to whom -- of whom you're now?

20     Inquiring.

21             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry?

22             JUDGE HALL:  How does the indicated adjudicated -- disputed

23     adjudicated fact allow for the questions on the -- about the particular

24     family of whom you're now inquiring?

25             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, in order to establish evidence

Page 18419

 1     that ethnic cleansing took place, the more that I can have people named,

 2     as is the argument over exhumations and everything else in this

 3     indictment, the better, I would have thought.  Other than simply saying,

 4     I can't remember who was killed, or I can't remember, but hundreds were.

 5     He can actually name people who wer killed.

 6             And if there's another definition of ethnic cleansing, then I'd

 7     be grateful to be told what it is.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I understand, the

10     definition of ethnic cleansing cannot form part of the adjudicated facts.

11     There is no such crime as ethnic cleansing.  I don't think I've ever come

12     across it.  What do these specific incidents tell us?  We are clearly

13     addressing specific incidents not mentioned in the indictment.  And yet

14     Ms. Korner is questioning the witness about these.  Even if we adopt the

15     broadest possible interpretation, we cannot see them as part of the

16     adjudicated facts.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, of course there's no crime of ethnic

18     cleansing; ethnic cleansing is a journalistic term, I suppose, adopted by

19     all to describe a number of crimes, which include murder, beatings,

20     deportation, persecutions, if you like.  And, Your Honour, I submit that

21     it is perfectly proper to ask these questions in the light of the

22     adjudicated facts which were disallowed.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And I take it that your questions, Ms. Korner --

24     you're -- what you're saying, in essence, is that the witness who is able

25     to testify to particular instances, it is from that that at the

Page 18420

 1     appropriate time that you would ask the Chamber to draw such inference --

 2     the reasonable inferences?

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Right.  Sorry, again, doctor.  Can you tell us, please, did you

 7     know some people who were at Trnopolje called Murgic?

 8        A.   Murgic, father and son.  They were also taken away down the road

 9     to the railway station and then onto the fish pond.  They killed both of

10     them.  They were ethnic Croats.  He was married to a lady who was a Serb.

11     The lady would come to our camp to ask questions about what had become of

12     her son and husband.

13        Q.   All right.  And do you know why these particular people were

14     taken away like this and then -- and then killed?

15        A.   I don't know that.

16        Q.   Now, you've told us that there were numbers of women in the camp.

17     Did anything happen to them which came to your attention as the doctor?

18        A.   Rape did occur.

19        Q.   Was that something that happened on -- on a regular basis, or was

20     it very occasional that somebody complained that they'd been raped?

21        A.   I think it was a very frequent occurrence.  Only a small number

22     of the ladies who -- came to us to seek help.  But from the time the

23     International Red Cross came, there were no rapes anymore.  And then,

24     later on - and I can't be very specific about the point in time -

25     normally there were those men, a group, referred to as Los Manijakos.  At

Page 18421

 1     one point I spoke to Dr. Dusko Ivic.  There were women there who came to

 2     speak to him, saying they were willing to go to Prijedor to be examined

 3     by a gynaecologist.  He then probably spoke to Major Kuruzovic and

 4     approved this.  He took those women to Prijedor to be examined.

 5             When he was back, he said it had been confirmed that those women

 6     had been raped.

 7        Q.   All right.  Did you try to do anything about these rapes --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Ms. Korner.

 9             Doctor, in the first part of your answer, if I understand the

10     first two responses, the first two sentences, you said that rape was a

11     frequent occurrence and then you said only a small number of persons came

12     to us to seek help, and then you went on to talk about the visits that

13     some of the women made to a different doctor who is a ... on what basis

14     did you conclude that rape was a frequent occurrence?  Because if I

15     understood your first two answers correctly, only a small number of

16     persons actually came to -- to see you, although you were an inmate, you

17     were also a medically trained person.

18             Do you understand my question?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

20             For two reasons:  One reason was, from the window of our clinic,

21     we could see where men in uniform went into those rooms where the women

22     were.  They would take them away and bring them back the next morning.

23             The other reason - I'm assuming that that was the case - is this:

24     A very small number of women, because of feelings of shame and

25     embarrassment, wanted to publicly state that they had been subjected to

Page 18422

 1     rape [as interpreted].  Nevertheless, from our window, we could see women

 2     being taken away.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             Please continue, Ms. Korner.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Did you ever try to do anything about these rapes?

 7        A.   Aside from being able to agree with Dusko Ivic that those women

 8     should be taken to Prijedor for an examination, there was nothing else we

 9     could do to help those ladies.  We simply advised them to form a convoy.

10     And when there was a sufficient number of them gathered, the women and

11     children would be able to leave quite soon.  As soon as they left the

12     territory, they should go and talk to a gynaecologist.  That's what I

13     advised them to do.

14        Q.   And, by and large, who was committing these rapes?  Who were the

15     people who were taking these women out?

16        A.   Because of something that happened once, I know that the group

17     was called El Manijakos.  There were probably other men there who were

18     not El Manijakos.  Why do I know that?  Because one day they arrived in

19     Trnopolje in two tanks.  They quarreled with Major Kuruzovic right in the

20     middle of the street, who'd allowed for those women to be taken to

21     Prijedor to be examined.  I heard --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

23     be asked to repeat the last part of his answer.  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, doctor, the interpreters didn't pick up what your

Page 18423

 1     last answer -- how your last answer ended.

 2             You said:  "They quarreled with Major Kuruzovic right in the

 3     middle of the street because he'd allowed for the women to be taken to

 4     Prijedor to be examined," and then ... what did you hear?

 5        A.   Yes.  I said I heard that one of their soldiers in the military

 6     barracks had been placed in custody.  I also heard that they went down

 7     there in their tanks and set this soldier free.  I'm not sure if that's

 8     true or not.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, I want you, briefly, please, to have a look at a

10     report that was done on Prijedor on the 18th of August.

11             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please, Exhibit P602.  And it's

12     the first page in English and the second page in B/C/S.  The second page

13     in B/C/S, please.  Thank you.

14        Q.   If you look at the -- in the -- in your -- in the B/C/S language,

15     doctor, the second paragraph.  This is a description - and it's the last

16     paragraph in English - about Trnopolje, done in August.

17             It states, in the middle:

18             "From the 24th of May 1992, a large number of citizens of Muslim

19     ethnicity of both sexes and all age groups sought protection in the

20     centre."

21             Now, had you or anyone else that you spoke to there sought

22     protection in the centre?

23        A.   We didn't seek protection from anyone.  One thing I have to say:

24     The moment the International Red Cross arrived, and UNHCR as well, the

25     moment they recorded all of the inmates that they found there who were

Page 18424

 1     not already gone, the moment it became known that the

 2     International Red Cross and the UNHCR would be evacuating those persons

 3     from the camp, others tried to get into Trnopolje as well to get their

 4     names on that list which would then enable them to leave the area.  Some

 5     people succeeded in this.  Some of the Serbs who were there would

 6     occasionally help a friend and they would make it possible for some

 7     people to access Trnopolje.

 8        Q.   Well, then, you see, this report goes on to say, after saying

 9     there was about 1500 of Muslim and Croat citizens there, and the number

10     fluctuates from what you tell us you would agree with, they say:

11             "No special records were kept since the citizens can leave it and

12     go in any direction they want whenever they feel like it."

13             Was that true?

14        A.   That was not true.  Aside from that, no special records were kept

15     with first and last names.  That much is true.  But people were not free

16     to leave as they liked.  Only upon approval could anyone leave.

17        Q.   Then they talk about the advantage of the Trnopolje railway

18     station and trains operating.

19             Apart from the women who were packed onto the trains in the

20     cattle wagons that you've told us about, was anybody else using the

21     railway station from the camp?

22        A.   Until the journalists came, the Muslims were not free to use that

23     railway station.

24        Q.   All right.  And then it goes on to say --

25             MS. KORNER:  If we can go to the next page in English, briefly.

Page 18425

 1        Q.   -- that there was permanent outpatient medical protection which

 2     had been organised in the centre before -- again, let's deal with before

 3     the journalists and before the Red Cross arrived.  Was that correct?

 4        A.   That was not correct.  Depending what activities they had in mind

 5     here.  They came there, there were some activities, but not enough.  As I

 6     said, they got some money from the inmates to buy bread.  They would

 7     bring that there, and one managed to organise for the locals to bring

 8     some supplies.  I don't know what they mean by activities here.

 9             As for medical protection, well, there was virtually none.

10        Q.   And then the final sentence of this paragraph says:

11             "Members of the army provide constant security for the centre

12     against any possible threat to the citizens from the extremists outside?"

13             Was that your impression of why the army was there?

14        A.   Everybody knew the army was there to keep an eye on us but not to

15     protect us from the extremists.  And no one was allowed to go anywhere.

16     I don't understand what extremists the reference is to.  The Serb

17     extremists.  Any Serb was free to access the camp and take away anyone

18     they liked, and they were free to beat people.

19        Q.   I'd like you now, please, doctor, if you would, to look at the

20     ITN film.  I know you've seen it a number of times, but just part of it.

21     All right.  We'll start from the beginning.

22             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Your Honours, I should say that is ...

23     Exhibit 1357 that we're showing.  Yes.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "How long has he been here?

Page 18426

 1             "Several hundreds said that they had arrived from Omarska that

 2     morning or from another detention camp released to this refugee centre

 3     after days, sometimes months, of interrogation.  We asked if the

 4     allegations of beating in the detention centres were true.

 5             "See, people were hungry.  It's true ...

 6             "I'm not sure that I'm allowed about that, you know, I -- can you

 7     understand me?

 8             "Tell us the truth.

 9             "I'm afraid.

10             "250.

11             "Killed?  What happened?

12             "I ...

13             "In this vicious civil war where atrocities against Serbs as well

14     as Muslims occur daily, finding the truth isn't easy.  We ourselves saw

15     no evidence of beatings on any refugee here, and we only heard the

16     allegations, Allegations even the camp doctor seemed unable to

17     substantiate ..."

18             MS. KORNER:  Just pause.

19        Q.   We see there, do we, a younger you, Dr. Merdzanic?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   And can you just tell us, who's standing behind you?

22        A.   That's Vasif Gutic, who was a medical student at the time.

23        Q.   And we can see just to the right there, was that a patient?

24        A.   That's one of the inmates.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 18427

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes, let's carry on.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Does he get any cases here of people who've been beaten from the

 4     other camps?

 5             "Yes.

 6             "Many?  Would you be happier speaking another language?

 7             "Yes.

 8             "I was able, however, to smuggle out a role of film.  And the man

 9     who took the pictures and gave it to me said he would be killed if

10     caught.  He begged me to check that in three days he was still alive."

11             MS. KORNER:  Pause there for a moment.

12        Q.   That's the photographs we looked at earlier that you'd taken.

13     That was you who told Penny Marshall that you were afraid you'd be

14     killed?

15        A.   Yes.  Unless -- that's if they found me out, they would

16     definitely kill me.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes, let's carry on.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "And amongst all this horror, some small touches of humanity.

20             "This is my friend.

21             "Like 19-year-old Igor, a Serb who now stands guard over the

22     friends he grew up with.  Muslims from the village they once shared as

23     children, now homeless, persecuted, and behind wire.  Igor took us to

24     another side of Trnopolje where we met some who'd come here by choice,

25     those who'd run for their lives to this pitiable camp.  Amongst them,

Page 18428

 1     13-year-old Sana who said he was used as a human shield by extremist

 2     Muslims on his own side.  The Serbs had taken his mother.

 3             "Are you frightened now?

 4             "Yes, a little."

 5             MS. KORNER:  Pause for a moment again.  Right.

 6        Q.   The bit of the camp that's now being shown, doctor, where was

 7     that?

 8        A.   Right now, you mean?  With the two hands?  Or just before?

 9        Q.   Just before.  When we saw him going over.

10        A.   Just before.  Okay.  That was where the wire fence was made.

11     That's what I had marked before, between the wire fence that used to be

12     there.

13        Q.   All right.  And I should have asked you that --

14        A.   And the hall.

15        Q.   Sorry.  The wire fence that we saw earlier on when -- at the

16     beginning of the clip, was that the one that was constructed and then

17     taken down again?

18        A.   The first frame that we saw showed us the wire fence that was

19     there to the south of the other two fences that you could see.  To the

20     left and right.  Those two came later.  We saw them in this footage.

21        Q.   All right.

22             MS. KORNER:  Let's just continue.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             "Where do you want to be?  If you could shut your eyes and be

25     anywhere, where would you like to be?

Page 18429

 1             "To follow my mother.  To find my mother.  Where is she?

 2             "No one we spoke to knew why they'd been brought here, whether

 3     they were prisoner, refugees, or what lay in store for them.  In this

 4     civil war, there is no sense and a great deal of horrifying cruelty.

 5             "Penny Marshall ..."

 6             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   Yes?

 9        A.   I just wanted to say, just before.  If you stop before this, you

10     can see the fence here, right before this.  Yes, that's the one.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "... or what lay in store for them ..."

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   That's the fence?

15        A.   This is the one that was there already.  And right before this,

16     there was a lower fence which was made on the western side.

17             This -- later on, there was a soldier who was standing there.

18        Q.   All right.  I think we see that in a minute.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20        A.   This is -- to the right of the road.  Oh, right.  This bit.  Yes,

21     you could tell.  A moment ago, it was going all the way there.  Yes.

22     Stop, stop.

23             This fence was made on the western side.  It stretches from the

24     previous fence that was always there, all the way to the wall.  And this

25     is the hall right behind.  And the -- the entrance, the door, was to the

Page 18430

 1     right.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's just go onto -- yes, I just want to show you

 3     the next bit where they came back.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "... in the makeshift medical centre ... show severe

 6     injuries ... smuggle film out of the camp.  The pictures show severe

 7     injuries, apparently as a result of beatings.

 8             "In the makeshift medical centre there were cases of scabies,

 9     malnutrition, and diarrhoea.  Local doctors said they were chronically

10     short of medicine and drugs.  And among them was a Muslim doctor.  We

11     asked him whether there had been any cases of beatings.

12             "Yes.

13             "Many?"

14             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'm --

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "On one side of the camp were refugees who were here simply

17     because they have nowhere else to go, their homes having been destroyed.

18     They have been told they can go as soon as they have a guarantee of a

19     home outside Serb-controlled Bosnia."

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can you pause there for a moment.

21        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, according to the report, these were people who

22     were refugees and were told they could go.  Were there some people there

23     like that, in August?

24        A.   I'm not sure what you mean by "refugees."  The Serbs go into a

25     village, drive all the women and children out, bring some of them over

Page 18431

 1     here, they set fire to their homes and mosques.  Well, in a situation

 2     like that, obviously these people end up being refugees, don't they?

 3             So I'm not sure about the context of the word.  Once they were

 4     brought here, in principle they couldn't leave.  Because of these

 5     soldiers and army keeping them in.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes, let's carry on.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "In Banja Luka, prisoners' wives have been queueing for days for

10     news of their men and to register as refugees, because they too have ..."

11             MS. KORNER:  Stop.

12        Q.   The report says Banja Luka.  Is that Banja Luka?

13        A.   I think this is the police station in Prijedor.  Stojan Zupljanin

14     knows Banja Luka, so he might know whether it's Banja Luka.

15             No, it's Prijedor.

16        Q.   All right.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             "... nowhere to go.  On the roads to Banja Luka, Muslim villages

19     lie empty and deserted, homes ..."

20             MS. KORNER:  Pause.

21        Q.   Do you know where this -- what they're showing us there, doctor?

22        A.   We can see not only a house that's been destroyed but it's been

23     torched.  You can see that it's black.  It was -- it was torched.

24        Q.   Yes, sorry.  Do you know where -- where it is, though, the actual

25     area?  Do you recognise it?

Page 18432

 1        A.   I wasn't paying attention.  I can just see one house now, so I

 2     can't tell.  I think this is probably on the road from Kozarac, but I'm

 3     not sure.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "If there is, eventually, freedom for the men in the detention

 7     centres, it's unlikely to be in Serb-controlled Bosnia.  Ian Williams,

 8     ITN, Northern Bosnia."

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Doctor, could I pose a question to you in

10     relation to the video that we have just seen, because it appeared as if

11     there was a difference in treatment between those who were kept, if I

12     understand it correctly, at the main parts of the camp, and where you

13     were assisting in attending to their wounds.  And then, on the other

14     hand, somewhere else in the camp, a smaller part where people were kept

15     as refugees, as we see in the video.

16             And so my question is:  Were all of them treated in the same way,

17     or were the so-called refugees treated differently from the rest of the

18     inmates at the camp?  And -- and if they were treated differently, then,

19     on which criteria were they selected?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only difference was that those

21     who were able-bodied were accommodated in the school and they could not

22     leave the camp.  The women, the children, and the elderly spent a short

23     time there, and especially the women and the children were accommodated

24     in the hall.  And when there was so many of them that they couldn't fit

25     any more in, they were transported away; whereas, the able-bodied men had

Page 18433

 1     to stay.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So if I understand you correctly, there was no

 3     difference in the treatment of the able-bodied men that we saw behind the

 4     fences and then the able-bodied men that we saw who were called refugees.

 5     They were all treated in the same way and were there on the same

 6     conditions.

 7             Is that correct?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were behind the fence were

 9     camp inmates who were not from Trnopolje.  They were camp inmates who had

10     been brought there from Keraterm and some of them from Omarska.  When the

11     journalists announced that they would visit the camps, the Serbs decided

12     to close down Keraterm entirely.

13             And some of the people from Keraterm were brought to Trnopolje.

14     Some went missing.  And some were sent to Manjaca.

15             As for Omarska, it was first the women, the children, and some

16     sick people who arrived first.  And before the journalists arrived, they

17     let them go to Prijedor so the journalists wouldn't find them there.

18             The night when the journalists left, a large group arrived from

19     Omarska who had been on the buses and in trucks until the journalists

20     left, and only then were they brought there.  Especially in the

21     beginning, the attitude towards these inmates from Omarska and Keraterm

22     was worse than -- than the handling that we received.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  You seemed to imply also that there was a

24     small group of able-bodied men who actually came from Trnopolje and who

25     were there because their houses had been destroyed and -- and who looked

Page 18434

 1     to me as if they were being treated differently and more leniently than

 2     the ones behind the wires and the fence.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct in the sense that we,

 4     in Trnopolje, despite the interrogations and the beatings of the inmates,

 5     the inmates in Trnopolje were in more favourable condition than those who

 6     had been in Keraterm or Omarska.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 8             So I am to understand that the inmates or the detainees who were

 9     taken to Trnopolje were treated more harshly than the inmates that were

10     brought there or who had arrived there, perhaps at their own free will,

11     from Trnopolje itself.  Is that ...

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That's not how it was.  Nobody

13     was there of their own free will.  Those who had come from Trnopolje had

14     also been forced out of their homes by the army.  They didn't come of

15     their own free will.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  I -- I understand that.

17             Thank you very much, sir.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

19             MS. KORNER:  If we can just finish this clip.

20             JUDGE HALL:  It's time for the break.  It's past time, actually.

21             MS. KORNER:  Oh, is it?

22             JUDGE HALL:  When we resume, Ms. Korner, you would have about

23     15 minutes left.

24             MS. KORNER:  That's all I need.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 18435

 1             So we rise and return in 20 minutes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, I'm just going to finish the last bit of this clip

 8     of the video that I want you to look at.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             "On the road to Trnopolje, a now all too familiar site.  Muslim

11     refugees fleeing their villages.  Sabrina Redic said her husband had been

12     shot and her house torched by advancing Bosnian Serb troops.

13             "When did they burn your house?

14             "Her terror was in part about what lies ahead at Trnopolje.  Will

15     she and her children be safe at a Serbian-run camp?

16             "The Red Cross are going help you.  They're going to do that.

17             "They will be there.  They will be there.

18             "At Trnopolje, the International Red Cross has just arrived.

19     This is the first time they'd been allowed inside.  For the moment,

20     Sabrina and her children are safe, for Trnopolje has changed.

21             "There's now some food getting through, although the queues are

22     long, and there's also shelter and clothes provided by the Serbian

23     authorities.  And the barbed-wire fence which shocked the world has been

24     torn down from its posts."

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 18436

 1        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, you explained to us how the International

 2     Red Cross came in after the reporters.  Was that right, that the fence

 3     had been taken down?

 4        A.   That's right.  Before their arrival, the fence was entirely

 5     removed, all of it.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "All this has been in advance of the simultaneous arrival of the

 9     Red Cross and our cameras, for certain conditions here have improved.

10     These refugees are safer.  But the Red Cross have still not been allowed

11     to enter any other camps, and our visits are closely supervised.

12     Whispered rumours of rapid transferral of prisoners from the area abound.

13     We couldn't find any proof of this.  But here, at least there's hope.

14     Inside the camp hospital, the doctor who last week stood petrified was

15     now welcoming, the relief obvious.

16             "Is it -- can you ask him if we can talk?

17             "He now knows there's international concern for him and people

18     like him.  'Much more needs to be done,' he says, 'but conditions have

19     improved.'

20             "... they moved the wire around.  They started giving more food.

21     People can go free, are going out and in.  Muslims can now go to the

22     train and before they couldn't go on the train.  And their families, they

23     can come now and visit them.  It's much, much better.

24             "But camp life is still by any human standard absolutely

25     appalling.  There's a desperate shortage of medicine and hundreds of

Page 18437

 1     patients to treat, amongst them those who claim they were beaten by their

 2     Serbian Guards.

 3             "The men responsible for running this camp and others are

 4     now willing to ..."

 5             MS. KORNER:  Pause for a minute.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise, sir, who that is?

 7        A.   He was an anaesthesiologist at the hospital.  His name was

 8     Kovacevic.

 9        Q.   Do you know if he -- is this the Kovacevic who died whilst

10     awaiting trial here?

11        A.   Yes, that's him.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             "... admit on camera mistakes were made.

14             "So it's -- it was some mistakes and now it's the war situation,

15     but they are going to clear up the situation.

16             "How -- how -- what have they discovered?  What were the

17     mistakes?  How many people were involved?

18             "War is war.  Some people, they loose control and then they --

19     they -- they beat some people and ...

20             "Eight people have been arrested in connection with maltreatment

21     in the camps.  We were shown evidence by our Serbian hosts, without whom

22     access to these refugees centres would be impossible, that equivalent

23     atrocities have been inflicted on their own side.  They said this video

24     showed some of the 6000 civilian Serbs killed by Muslims and Croats in

25     the war.  They denied they were using terror to force Muslims from their

Page 18438

 1     villages.  But there is increasing evidence that they are.  This Muslim

 2     village, Kozarac, for example, once housed 26" --

 3             MS. KORNER:  Pause.

 4        Q.   The pronunciation may not be right.  Is what's being shown now

 5     Kozarac?

 6        A.   I think it's just the suburbs.  It's the periphery, not Kozarac

 7     itself.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "... 26000.  There's no one left.  Many are in these camps, men

10     like 26-year-old Zijad Hukanovic, held up by his elder brother.  He was a

11     television repairman before the Serbs took him to Omarska.

12             "No, no fighting.

13             "You've been in prison in Omarska for 70 days?

14             "[Indiscernible]

15             "Did you think you were going die when you were inside?

16             "And all -- he's almost dead.

17             "The International Red Cross yesterday gave out registration

18     forms to the 2.000 now in Trnopolje, a small start in one camp, but there

19     are hundreds of others they need to reach, for civilians on all sides,

20     because of their ethnic backgrounds, are being killed in this war, and

21     these camps are for only some of the survivors.  Penny Marshall, News at

22     10, Northern Bosnia."

23             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

24        Q.   And, doctor, just two other matters that I want to ask you about.

25     Firstly, could you have a look at a document ... if I can find my list.

Page 18439

 1             MS. KORNER:  It's 65 ter 481.  And it's tab 5.

 2             I don't ... you need to switch the ... from video.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, this is a document dated 11th of July, which comes from

 4     Prijedor, as we can see.

 5             MS. KORNER:  And if we go to the next page, please, in English.

 6        Q.   It's actually a document signed or -- it -- or on his behalf -

 7     I'm not clear which - but we can just make out the signature

 8     Simo Drljaca.  It says:

 9             "Please find enclosed a list of your employees who are in some of

10     the refugee camps in accordance with the Prijedor municipality Crisis

11     Staff order ... of 2nd July 1992 ..."

12             If we look at the General Hospital.  Somebody at the name at

13     number 8 is Esad Sadikovic.  Is that a doctor?

14        A.   He is the specialist, the otolaryngologist that I talked about.

15        Q.   The one who went on the -- on the delegation to -- to see

16     Stojan Zupljanin?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   Do you know what happened to him?

19        A.   As far as I know, he was taken to Omarska.  And just before the

20     journalists arrived, he and some others, Jusuf Pasic, who was taken away

21     from Trnopolje and some other doctors were taken away, most of the bodies

22     had been found.  Only Osman Masmujanin's [phoen] body has not yet been

23     found.

24        Q.   Yes, thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may that be marked and admitted,

Page 18440

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1772, Your Honours.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   And, finally, doctor, can I ask you, please, to look at the clip

 6     from another video, which will come up on your screen.  And the video is

 7     65 ter 2326.

 8             Before we play it, do you recognise the man who's being

 9     interviewed?

10        A.   It's Dr. Stakic, who worked at Omarska.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes, if we can play it.  There is a transcript,

12     which I has been given.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We are talking with Milomir Stakic,

15     president of the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff.  Mr. President, please

16     describe to us the situation in the territory that is under your control.

17             "Well, I can tell you and the viewers that the whole territory of

18     Prijedor municipality is under our control, which I can confirm following

19     the liberation of Kozarac.  The town, Serbian settlements and smaller

20     enclaves with Muslim population, have been under our control since the

21     takeover of power on 30 April.  And now, after the fall of Kozarac, the

22     entire municipality is under our control.  In Kozarac itself, the

23     operation of 'cleaning' as the military call it, is still going on,

24     because those who have stayed now behind are the most extreme ones and

25     the professionals.  In the territory of the Bosanska Gradiska" --

Page 18441

 1             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2        Q.   First of all, what we're now seeing is a picture of a tank.  Is

 3     that like the one that you described that you saw in Kozarac, just before

 4     you left?

 5        A.   I saw the tanks exactly the same as this.  I don't know whether

 6     it's exactly as the one as in the picture, but those -- that's the type

 7     of tank that I saw.

 8        Q.   I want to ask you about a couple of things that Stakic said in

 9     this interview, which was clearly very shortly after what happened in

10     Kozarac.  He says that:

11             "The whole of Prijedor municipality is under our control, which I

12     can confirm following the liberation of Kozarac."

13             What do you say to the use of the term "liberation of Kozarac"?

14        A.   They liberated it of its own inhabitants, of the inhabitants of

15     Kozarac.  They are calling it a mop-up themselves.  In our language, it

16     would refer to you picking up dirt from the ground and mopping -- mopping

17     up the room.  People who lived there had their homes there, had their

18     families there.  So if that's what they call liberation, that's up to

19     them.

20        Q.   And he goes on to say:

21             "The town, Serbian settlements and smaller enclaves with Muslim

22     population, have been under our control since the takeover of the power

23     of the 30th of April, and now, after the fall of Kozarac, the entire

24     municipality is under our control."

25             What do you say to that assertion?

Page 18442

 1        A.   Well, what I have to say about that assertion is that it was

 2     practically confirmed; they did have it under their control.  And after

 3     the fall of Kozarac, all the other locals from surrounding villages with

 4     Muslims and Croats were expelled and sent to camps despite the fact that

 5     this area was under their control.  These villages were under their

 6     control but yet they cleared out the non-Serbian population that lived

 7     there, without any reason whatsoever, because they already had control.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much, doctor.  That's all I ask.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that video please be admitted.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1773, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Aleksic.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good evening, doctor.

15        A.   Good evening.

16        Q.   I have a few questions for you, but we will most certainly be

17     finished by the end of today.

18             At the beginning of your testimony today, you said that you had

19     testified in the Stakic and Brdjanin cases in September and

20     November of 2002; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   As for the events that preceded the events in Kozarac that you

23     talked about, in the Brdjanin case, on page 11798, you said that in

24     Kozarac, on the way into Kozarac near the sawmill, there was a barricade

25     and that it had been set up by the people of Kozarac in order to prevent

Page 18443

 1     the army from going into the village by tanks.

 2             Do you remember saying that?

 3        A.   I don't remember what I said, but I do remember that, at the

 4     entrance into Kozarac, there were -- there was a tank at the cross-roads,

 5     and further up, there were three iron bars on the road.

 6        Q.   But the purpose was what I read out.  The purpose was to prevent

 7     a tank passing through.

 8        A.   To prevent a tank from entering Kozarac.  I believe that was the

 9     purpose.

10        Q.   On the same page in that case, you said that after the takeover

11     of power in Prijedor, the Muslims and Croats in the surrounding villages

12     organised barricades and patrols or village guards in order to protect

13     themselves.

14        A.   I know that joint guards were discussed and organised.  These

15     were joint guards between the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims.  And

16     this happened before Prijedor.

17             Later on, when the army took over Prijedor, despite this

18     agreement, the villagers which were purely Muslim or Croat were afraid of

19     the army entering their village suddenly.  So some of them, I don't know

20     where exactly, but in some of these villages the people got organised and

21     they stood guard in order to notice in case somebody arrived at night.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that before these events in Kozarac

23     there was some incidents at the check-point in Hambarine, in Jakupovici

24     village, when a military convoy was attacked.

25             Did you hear about that?

Page 18444

 1        A.   No, I didn't hear about Jakupovici.  I heard that some drunk

 2     Serbian soldiers started towards Hambarine and they opened fire, so the

 3     guard that was there returned fire and one soldier was killed.  That's

 4     what I know about Hambarine.

 5             But as far as for Hambarine, it's a village that there was no

 6     military strategy connected to it.  Why would a military convoy pass

 7     there?

 8        Q.   The military convoy related to Jakupovici.  But you told me you

 9     didn't know anything about that, so we'll move on.

10             As for the events in Kozarac, in the Stakic case, on page 7723,

11     you said that before these events you never listened to the radio in the

12     clinic so you didn't hear either on the radio or on TV about any sort of

13     a warning or an announcement to hand over weapons.

14             Do you remember that?

15        A.   I don't remember what I said, but I remember that I never heard

16     that.  I remember that today.

17             The phones were off completely.  They gave information on the

18     radio about how the Serbian army would protect everybody, that nobody had

19     any reason to be afraid, but there was no word about the war.  And

20     Hambarine was already on fire.  You could see from Kozarac how Hambarine

21     was on fire.  But you couldn't hear anything about this on the radio.

22     There was complete blockade.

23             The first thing that the Serbs occupied were the radio and TV

24     relays, in order to be able to broadcast their propaganda.

25        Q.   Both times you gave evidence earlier on, you said something which

Page 18445

 1     you have repeated today.  Before these events you met Sead Cirkin, who

 2     was an active-duty officer of the JNA.  This man organised the Kozarac

 3     defence.  Furthermore, in the Stakic case, at page 7823, you said that

 4     two days before the shelling you saw armed men in Kozarac.  Some were

 5     wearing uniform; and some, civilian clothes.  You said the group of men

 6     that you saw who were with Cirkin was not a large group, but you couldn't

 7     say whether there were more men elsewhere.

 8             Do you remember saying that?

 9        A.   They were on the outskirts of Kozarac.  Practically outside

10     Kozarac and not in the town itself, right in the middle of it, where the

11     homes were.

12        Q.   But what I've just read back to you accurately reflects what you

13     said at the time, sir, doesn't it?

14        A.   Maybe there were individuals passing that one could see.

15     Nevertheless, as for armed men in Kozarac itself, in any organised

16     manner, there were none.  This was on the outskirts.  There were no

17     houses or homes there where these armed men were.  This doesn't

18     necessarily mean that one couldn't see the occasional armed man pass

19     through the town itself.

20        Q.   In the Brdjanin case, at page 11800, you say you don't know

21     whether they - and that was a reference to the Cirkin unit - were wearing

22     Territorial Defence uniforms or another type of uniform.  At any rate,

23     this was an armed unit, yet you couldn't tell what type of unit.

24             Do your remember saying that, sir?

25        A.   Most of them were wearing uniform, as a matter of fact.  I think

Page 18446

 1     it was a Territorial Defence uniform.  I don't remember the exact type.

 2     I do believe it was green.

 3        Q.   Let us move on to something else.

 4             In the Stakic case, at pages 7739 and 7740, you spoke about the

 5     arrival of these three soldiers at the clinic and you say:

 6             [In English] "Three Serb soldiers arrived.  One of them was quite

 7     a well-known face.  He was from Trnopolje.  Azra, the vet, knew him

 8     personally.  The other two were persons no one seemed to know, and their

 9     accent was Ekavian which probably implied that they were not from Bosna

10     but from a different region."

11             [Interpretation] So those two men, as you testified, talked just

12     the way I talk; right?

13        A.   Yes.  They used the Ekavian dialect.

14        Q.   The kind of dialect used in Serbia, right?

15        A.   Yes, the kind used in Serbia.  And the same language was -- began

16     to be issued by the Serbs in Bosnia also just before the war or when the

17     war first broke out.  They had never used the dialect before the war.

18        Q.   You said after the war.

19        A.   No, during the war already.  All of a sudden they all started

20     using the Cyrillic script and using the Ijkavian dialect.  But those men,

21     the men I'm talking about, spoke a pure Ekavian dialect.  E-k-a-v-i-a-n.

22        Q.   At the same page, you continue:

23             [In English] [Previous translation continues] "... people knew

24     wore, I think, camouflage olive-drab uniform, and the other two wore

25     green camouflage uniforms.  One of them was wearing a red beret, and they

Page 18447

 1     all wore the same arm-bands."

 2             [Interpretation] And then you continue:

 3             [In English] "The one wearing the beret, he went up to the first

 4     floor.  The remaining two, including the one people knew, they called the

 5     woman who had the name Goga written on her apron which showed that she

 6     was Serb.  And then soldier from Trnopolje left the building ..."

 7             [Interpretation] And so on.

 8             Do you remember describing these three's persons in this way

 9     eight years ago in the Stakic trial, sir?

10        A.   I remember those persons were there.  I don't think I could

11     recall their faces right now.

12        Q.   On that same page, you say a military truck arrived later on with

13     the JNA marks on it.  They loaded the medical equipment onto the truck

14     and left.

15        A.   Yes.  It was open at the back.  It didn't even have a tarp

16     covering at the back.  They loaded all this equipment directly onto the

17     truck and were off.  It was a green truck as well.

18        Q.   At the outset, you said you gave a statement to the OTP in 2000.

19     In addition to that, you also appeared as a witness in these two trials.

20     While you were being proofed for the evidence in the previous two cases

21     and while you gave your statement in 2000, were shown any photographs

22     depicting men in uniform?  You weren't.  Do you agree, sir?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   What about -- please just listen to me, sir.

25             While you were being proofed for this testimony, you were only

Page 18448

 1     shown a single photograph and a single piece of footage, video footage;

 2     right?  The one that we saw today in the courtroom.

 3             Is that right, sir?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's what was shown me.

 5        Q.   What were you told about the photograph?  Did you hear when it

 6     was taken and where it came from?

 7        A.   No, I wasn't told that.

 8        Q.   So no other photograph, no other video-clip was shown with men in

 9     a different type of uniform over the past couple of days, apart from what

10     you saw here in this courtroom today, sir?

11        A.   I saw a video-clip --

12        Q.   But I was asking you about photographs.  There was this one

13     single photograph that you were shown; right?

14        A.   No.  They showed it to me on the screen.  They stopped it.  They

15     wanted to know whether that's what the uniforms were like.  But there

16     wasn't just one; they showed both green and blue.

17             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, if it

18     assists, Mr. Aleksic is -- is correct - so that he doesn't -- what was

19     shown was the photograph of the -- of the one that was put on the screen,

20     and then the video was shown, and that's it.

21             So I'm certainly prepared to admit that there was no other

22     photographs shown.

23             MR. ALEKSIC:

24        Q.   My learned friend from the OTP never told you that the photograph

25     you were shown was taken in 1995.  They didn't say that, did they?

Page 18449

 1        A.   No, they didn't.  They just asked about the uniforms, whether the

 2     uniforms were like that.

 3             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Um, I want to know on what

 4     basis you make the assertion the photograph was taken in 1995.  My

 5     understanding is the photograph was taken in 1992.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may reply.  The OTP has not

 7     produced any evidence at all as to when this photo was taken.  Having

 8     knowledge of the case, I will not state my source.  The last time I did,

 9     it was about Colonel Stevilovic's command, and then a witness came along

10     and changed his evidence in that respect.  Therefore, I'd rather refrain

11     from quoting a source on this.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Well, in any event, I don't know what turns on when

13     the photograph was taken, because I thought that the purpose of the

14     photograph, when the question was asked, was: You see this image, were

15     the uniforms like this?

16             MS. KORNER:  Um, Your Honours, well, no -- sorry.  But can I just

17     go back to this for a moment.  It's no good Mr. Aleksic asserting a

18     photograph's taken in 1995 when there's not an iota of evidence to show

19     that.  Accepting that we haven't strictly proved it was in 1992, because

20     it never occurred to me that there was any challenge to this.

21             Just a moment, Mr. Krgovic.  Let me finish.

22             And so, therefore, he can no more make assertions about this than

23     he says we can.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in principle, this is

25     what it all comes down to: It is our case that the photo was not take in

Page 18450

 1     1992.  The OTP will have a chance to hear us on that --

 2             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... why are we

 3     spending time on this, having regard to what I understand the question

 4     and answer was about the photograph which we saw?

 5             Please continue, Mr. Aleksic.

 6             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Just another question, doctor.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Please be continue, Mr. Aleksic.

10             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Doctor, just another question for you.

12             As for you leaving Trnopolje, in the Brdjanin case, at

13     page 11819, you were asked about the form that you were supposed to fill

14     in before you could leave Trnopolje.  You claimed at the time, in the

15     Brdjanin trial, that the convoys, when this thing was to be signed, were

16     organised by the International Committee of the Red Cross or the UNHCR.

17             Do you remember that?

18        A.   Those were not convoys.  There was a single convoy on the 30th,

19     when the camp was officially closed.

20        Q.   You were advised -- well, perhaps not you personally, but people,

21     generally speaking, were advised, having asked questions of the

22     International Red Cross personnel, to sign those forms, because the forms

23     were useless to all practical intents and no law would recognise

24     documents like that.

25             Do you remember that?  Do you remember saying that?

Page 18451

 1        A.   Yes.  They asked me back at the clinic.  We asked those questions

 2     too.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much, doctor.

 4             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 5     questions, thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I ask the same question that

 8     Your Honour asked before, relating to Mr. Krgovic -- Mr. Aleksic's

 9     cross-examination.

10             It is -- is it being disputed that when the doctor named one of

11     the people as Mr. Skrbic, who was, I believe, the one in the blue

12     camouflage, I think he said, and identified the one who was wearing the

13     red beret as wearing a similar uniform in the red beret that -- is that

14     being challenged?  Because it's not clear to me either.

15             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness never

16     mentioned a blue uniform in the Stakic trial.  I read everything that he

17     said in that trial.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you tell me again what you said

19     about that blue uniform?  Because you used a different word.  But that's

20     the colour.  Can you please repeat the wording, what you claim I said at

21     the time?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  One speaker at a time,

23     please.  Thank you.

24             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was always saying that two of the

Page 18452

 1     men were wearing a green uniform, because there are only two types of --

 2     of camouflage uniform, green and blue.  And green might be termed

 3     olive-drab.  I'm not aware of any third time of camouflage uniform.

 4             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   But you said two were wearing green camouflage; and a third,

 6     olive-drab.  Which is a monochrome; right?  That's what you said in the

 7     Stakic case.  That's what I read.

 8        A.   That might be what I said, but I'm telling what I had in mind.

 9             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, exactly.  That's the point I'm

11     making.  So is it being suggested to the doctor that he's either mistaken

12     or not telling the truth when he says that one of the uniforms was blue?

13     Because if that is what the Defence case, then they've got to put that.

14             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I am simply saying that eight years

15     ago the doctor gave evidence that was different from his evidence today.

16     He said perhaps he made a mistake and perhaps he was mis-recorded at the

17     time.  I read his evidence.  There was no mention there of a blue

18     uniform.  He has now explained the issue, and it -- it is definitely up

19     to the Trial Chamber to see whether they can accept that or not.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Is there cross-examination on behalf of the

21     Accused Stanisic?

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I announced,

23     none.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

25             Re-examination?

Page 18453

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

 2        Q.   Doctor, let's just go back, please, to this incident of the three

 3     men who came to take you and your colleagues away.

 4             One of the men you said was known -- you know to be a man called

 5     Dragan Skrbic.  What sort of uniform was he wearing?

 6        A.   It was a different uniform from the one the others were wearing.

 7     As far as I can remember, that was the blue camouflage.  And perhaps you

 8     can show me the same photo that you showed me yesterday and then I can

 9     confirm for you.

10        Q.   We will put it up again, a video still ...

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the type.  And I think

13     that was the type of uniform worn by that man.  In principle, there were

14     just two different types.  Either blue or green.  Camouflage has several

15     different colours.  Mixed.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   Yes, thank you very much.

18             MS. KORNER:  That's all I wanted to ask in re-examination.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Doctor, you -- do you know a person named

21     Ivo Atlija?

22        A.   Ivo Atlija.  No, I've never heard the name.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  A medical student?  No?  Doesn't ring a bell?

24        A.   No, it still doesn't ring a bell.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Another question.

Page 18454

 1             The commander of Trnopolje, his name was Kuruzovic; is that

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.  Slobodan Kuruzovic.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Was he living in -- in the camp?  Was he housed

 5     in the camp or in the -- in the neighbourhood?

 6        A.   During the day, he would stay in a house that was just to the

 7     north of Trnopolje, when one heads in the direction of Kozarac.  And if

 8     we go back to that first image that we used, I can show you the location.

 9             I think -- I used photographs at one point in which I marked the

10     location of this house where he was staying.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do you know whether there were any detainees in

12     that same house?

13        A.   I don't know that.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Doctor, your testimony is at an end, and are you now

17     released as a witness.  We thank you for your assistance before the

18     Tribunal and your willingness to continue to assist us.  We, who neither

19     suffered these horrors nor were present and are only seeing them through

20     the remoteness of time and the impersonality of these electronic means,

21     of course, are limited in our appreciation, and we can only imagine the

22     pain that you still must feel, indeed, as demonstrated in the course of

23     your testimony today.

24             So we are indeed grateful for your willingness to continue to

25     assist in seeking to -- us in our task of ensuring, in the course of

Page 18455

 1     these trials, to determine the guilt or innocence of the particular

 2     persons charged, and, in a larger sense, to bring some form of resolution

 3     to these unfortunate events.

 4             Thank you, sir, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Could we go into private session briefly, please.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18456











11 Page 18456 redacted. Private session.















Page 18457

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

23             JUDGE HALL:  The -- are we back in open session?

24             In terms of where -- what -- how we manage the remaining time

25     before the winter recess, I take it there are no witnesses available

Page 18458

 1     tomorrow?

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's right.  The only witness left is

 3     the one who's still in hospital.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  And having regard to the latest reports that

 5     we have on him, and I know that when we last addressed this in open court

 6     the suggestion was to fix a Status Conference for Monday, but having

 7     regard to what we indicated yesterday about allowing sufficient time for

 8     the parties to organise themselves in prepares for that conference, we

 9     return to our strong preference for Wednesday.

10             However, having regard to the matters next week, Tuesday may be

11     available.  And at this point, I don't know that we can do anything

12     further but leave it to the usual exchange of e-mails as to where the

13     Prosecution is in terms of the availability of Witness ST-008 and when

14     the Status Conference should be fixed.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, as I said, tomorrow there's no

16     witnesses.  I know that we can, on behalf of the Prosecution, put before

17     Your Honours the matters that we want just to raise, and as I understand

18     it, the Defence are in the same position.

19             No, no, not for tomorrow.  For Monday.  Sorry.  I don't mean -- I

20     hear Mr. Zecevic isn't here.  But Your Honours said you wanted to give us

21     time to tell Your Honours what we need to discuss.  My understand is that

22     all sides can tell Your Honours, or tell the Legal Officers, tomorrow.

23     And I would have thought, certainly from the point of view of

24     Mr. Stanisic, but maybe not from Mr. Zupljanin, from the Defence point of

25     view, the sooner they can get on with preparing their Defence case back

Page 18459

 1     in Belgrade the better.

 2             So if we can bring this matter to a conclusion.  Because it seems

 3     to me at the moment that the likelihood of this witness being able to

 4     testify before Christmas is receding, judging by the reports.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Well, to repeat what I indicated, it's late on

 6     Thursday evening.  Parties have a chance to think about this tomorrow.

 7     And the usual e-mail traffic would, hopefully by close of business

 8     tomorrow, indicate where we come down.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.,

13                           sine die.