Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18517

 1                           Monday, 10 January 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.  And welcome back.  And a Happy New

11     Year to everyone, and I say that to those whose calendar who is

12     retrospective as well as those whose calendar is prospective.

13             Yes, may we have the appearances today.

14             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  And Happy New Year from

15     the Prosecution team, today, at the moment, represented by Joanna Korner,

16     Tom Hannis, and Crispian Smith, case manager.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Happy New Year to

18     everybody in the courtroom.  For Stanisic Defence this afternoon,

19     Slobodan Zecevic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and

20     Ms. Tatjana Savic.  Thank you.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated] Happy New Year to

22     everyone.  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic,

23     and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

25             Ms. Korner, you're going to tell us what the first order of

Page 18518

 1     business is today.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honours, the first witness is the one

 3     that Your Honours ordered to be recalled at the request of the Defence.

 4     I think he is here.  Obviously the Prosecution have not been in touch

 5     with him, but I'm certain he's here and I'm proposing simply to have him

 6     brought in, and cross-examination take place.

 7             However, Your Honours, can I raise a couple of administrative

 8     matters.

 9             The first is this:  We anticipate, even with the shortened

10     sittings that are to held this week to which matter I need to return

11     because I'm not clear when exactly we are sitting at the moment, that the

12     evidence that we call will be completed sometime next week.

13             At the moment, by our reckoning there are still some 11

14     outstanding motions to be ruled upon and clearly we can't close our case

15     until we've had the rulings but as I say we anticipate that the evidence

16     will finish sometime next week, unless we're very much mistaken.  That's

17     merely to remind Your Honours of that.  Your Honours, the next matter is

18     this.  Tomorrow afternoon, can I just inquire, are we sitting at 2.15

19     tomorrow or earlier?

20             JUDGE HALL:  Well, if the -- it is -- we've just learned that

21     there is a possibility of us moving to tomorrow morning.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can I say straight away that from our point of view

23     won't be possible.  Mr. Brown only got here last night.  I've seen him

24     this morning; he's going off to review his documents and I need to see

25     him again tomorrow morning to go through, finally, what selection of

Page 18519

 1     documents there, and I have been working on basis of the Court calendar

 2     both as was discussed before Christmas and the one that came out last

 3     week.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  The -- do we understand, Ms. Korner, that we've

 6     heard what you say about the difficulty of 9.00 in the morning, but do we

 7     understand that you may be ready to begin earlier than the scheduled time

 8     of 2.15?

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, hopefully not.  Can I explain?

10     We had some difficulty in working out when we were sitting from the order

11     that Your Honours gave before Christmas about extended sitting one day

12     and reduced sitting another and then the court calendar came out, which

13     said we were sitting normal hours on the afternoon.  We tried to check

14     with Mr. Dygeus as to when we were sitting.  But, Your Honours, your

15     order was an extended sitting on Tuesday but that didn't make any sense

16     because we were sitting in the afternoon.

17             The reality is that had we known, Mr. Brown would have been

18     brought here earlier and he wasn't because we didn't want to bring him

19     here too early for any good reason.  So I do really need not only

20     tomorrow morning to discuss, finally, the matters with him but also

21     effectively to do something really basic like making sure that the

22     documents which are in B/C/S are marked.

23             So with great apologies, I would ask that we stick to 2.15.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I understand but I just wish for the record to

25     clarify that the idea behind extended sitting on Tuesday was because of

Page 18520

 1     the late start on Wednesday, due to a commitment, official commitment,

 2     that some of the Judges have Wednesday morning.  So the idea was to

 3     compensate by starting a little earlier than 2.15 but we understand what

 4     you have said.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  I'm afraid that wasn't clear at all

 6     because it was an afternoon sitting so we weren't at all clear how it

 7     could be extended.  We didn't realise it was going to go backward into

 8     the morning.

 9             But, as I say, I hope that will --

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  So it is 2.15 tomorrow.

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours, Mr. Smith was

13     showing me something.

14             Your Honours, that brings me on to an urgent ruling.  We applied

15     last week -- no, in fact before Christmas I think it was, to add seven

16     further documents that Mr.  Brown referenced in his report to our 65 ter

17     list and then a further map, which if you look at the updated list that

18     we've sent out, and I apologise for the late revision, but when I looked

19     at the original list I realized that they were not in chronological order

20     and it made more sense to have a chronological order.  We've also added

21     some further documents, again which are not on our 65 ter list.

22     Your Honours will see those in red, whereas the ones that were reflected

23     in our motion you will see give a proposed 65 ter number.  In fact, I

24     think there should be some three more somewhere, but I'm not sure where.

25             Your Honours, my application today is that we may be permitted to

Page 18521

 1     add all of the documents shown in this list to our 65 ter which were not

 2     originally on our 65 ter.  Can I say this.  There was a discussion held

 3     in May of 2009 about whether footnotes in the expert's reports needed to

 4     be reflected on the 65 ter list.  This was a discussion that was held

 5     with Judge Harhoff in the presence of the Senior Legal Officer,

 6     Mrs. Featherstone, and as yet, there's been no official record produced.

 7     I have sent, however, to the Defence and to Ms. Featherstone the record

 8     that I made.  There was, and has remained throughout, some confusion

 9     about what was to happen with footnotes and whether they needed to be

10     added to the 65 ter list.  Our application is simply made on this basis.

11     Mr. Brown made an initial selection of what he considered to be the most

12     important documents that he wished to refer the Court to in support of

13     his report sometime ago.  Obviously after discussions with him, and

14     having checked various aspects of the report, it has become evident that

15     there are other documents which he needs to refer to and it's those other

16     documents which have been added to the list.  Some of which were on our

17     65 ter list, others of which, as indicated, are not.

18             And so we would simply ask now verbally that in addition to the

19     seven documents and the eighth one, the map referenced in our actual

20     written motions, we may be allowed to add the other documents as well to

21     our 65 ter list.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, just to be clear, is this -- what you have

23     just said, is an oral addendum to your written motion.

24             MS. KORNER:  It is, yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thanks.

Page 18522

 1             MS. KORNER:  Because some of the documents when we compiled the

 2     new list, it became clear that some of the ones that were selected were

 3     not on our 65 ter list.  Some of them were - not that it makes any

 4     difference - some of them had been on them and removed in the cutting

 5     exercise that took place all those years ago and before anybody had

 6     considered the impact of Mr. Brown's report.  But that -- that's the

 7     application I make.

 8             Your Honours, can I say, it's a limited selection in any event of

 9     the very, very, very large number of documents which he references in the

10     footnotes to his report.

11             Your Honour, the final matter is this --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please specify the numbers concerned --

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I can, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- for your oral application.

15             MS. KORNER:  We wish to add the document which is in the

16     spreadsheet, tab 5.  Your Honours, at tab 10 and 11, you can forget that

17     because -- tab 10, rather.  There are a number of versions of the

18     Prijedor decision on the organisation of work of the Crisis Staff which

19     have come from different sources.  In fact, one of them had the date on

20     it; the other didn't.  The one at 9 had no date; and the one at 10 which

21     was thought was not on our 65 ter has a date.  There is, in fact, one on

22     our 65 ter list which has a date so you can ignore that.

23             Number -- document number 20.  I'm sorry, tab 11.  Your Honours,

24     that document has already been shown to a witness, and at that stage, I

25     said it wasn't necessary to be added to our 65 ter list and I just wanted

Page 18523

 1     to show it to the witness but it has become apparent it needs to be.

 2             Document number 20.  Your Honours, the date, 9th June is really

 3     important.  It links up with a number of other documents in evidence in

 4     this case concerning the takeover of Kotor Varos which at the time of

 5     preparing the 65 ter list we would haven't appreciated quite the

 6     significance of that.

 7             Document which is shown at number 34.

 8             And Your Honour finally the document -- we've applied for the

 9     document at 63 already in writing, that was an addendum to the original

10     motion.  And the document number 64 I put in simply because it may be of

11     interest to Your Honours to see the map prepared at the time.  This is an

12     original, contemporaneous map to show what the area of operations of the

13     1st Krajina Corps was.  I can't say it is vital to the evidence, but I

14     think it is of interest enough for Your Honours to have a look at it.

15             So Your Honours that's the application that I make orally in

16     addition to the written motion we put in.

17             Your Honours, final in respect of the --

18             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  Before you move on could I inquire as to

19     whether the Defence is in a position to respond to this matter?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Unfortunately, Your Honours, we are not ready to

21     respond because we received the revised list only before we entered the

22     court building.  And at the moment our assistants are printing it out.

23     So we -- we are not even at this point we are not able to say whether it

24     was previously disclosed to the Defence.  Some of the documents which are

25     not on the 65 ter list, I certainly hope that is the case.

Page 18524

 1             However, Your Honours, there is one other matter that I need to

 2     raise with -- with -- with the Trial Chamber and it might affect actually

 3     the -- the -- the scheduling of the witnesses, because --

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  Does it relate to this matter because I

 5     would prefer to deal with these matters separately.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  It doesn't necessarily --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

 8             Mr. Krgovic, I assume your position was the same.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  It was a joint position by both Defence teams.

10             MS. KORNER:  There has been no Defence opposition to the original

11     motion.  Nothing has been filed, and it's way out of time now, so it's

12     really just the additional ones.

13             Your Honours, the third one relates to the application that we

14     made again before Christmas for Your Honours to reconsider your decision

15     on the admission of various interrogation notes relating to Omarska and

16     failing that, if Your Honours decided not to reconsider the decision to

17     admit those documents then we wish to expand the testimony of the witness

18     who is coming later this afternoon, and we haven't had a ruling on that

19     and that witness is due to start this afternoon.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, we are trying to get the decision out

21     before ST-228 comes to the stand.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

24             The -- all of these things, of course, are in the process of

25     being worked out and would be resolved as speedily as circumstances

Page 18525

 1     permit.

 2             Mr. Zecevic, you had a matter.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, I was informed today when I came

 4     into the court building that apparently the e-scan in the Defence room is

 5     not working which effectively means that none of the Defence -- the

 6     Defence teams is able to upload any documents in e-court.  You -- you

 7     will, I'm sure, remember that over this period of time I was actually

 8     preparing the cross-examination of Mr.  Brown.

 9             Now, I have selected the documents which I intend to use in the

10     cross-examination of this witness, and if I cannot upload them in

11     e-court, then it is going to create a big problem.  I don't know -- I was

12     just informed the moment when I came over here that that is the

13     situation, so I guess the Registry is informed about that, but still, at

14     this point, we don't know whether the e-scan will be operative and when.

15     And then it might be -- it might be a problem because of the back-log

16     because all the Defence teams would need to -- to upload the documents in

17     the e-court.  So I just wanted to put this on the record to put the

18     Trial Chamber on notice about that, and I will keep you informed as -- as

19     the situation develops.  That is all I can do at this point,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So, like you, we assume that the

22     Registry Has been notified.  But I suspect that you are only going to

23     know of the specific difficulty you have when the time comes in with the

24     witness if the problem isn't wholly corrected by that time.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.

Page 18526

 1             JUDGE HALL:  We understand.  Thank you.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  And if that disposes of all the administrative and

 4     ancillary matters, the -- if the witness is available, could we have him

 5     on the stand, please.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you sir.  Would you please make

 9     the solemn declaration on the card that the usher has handed to you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

13             As you may have been informed, you have been re-called for

14     further cross-examination by the Defence in this matter.  Inasmuch as

15     your testimony is -- Inasmuch as a witness being recalled there are

16     certainly preliminary matters which I needn't repeat and which you will

17     recall when you last testified.  But, for the record, would you state

18     your name, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nedeljko Djekanovic.

20             JUDGE HALL:  And before I invite counsel for the Prosecution to

21     ask such further questions as they have, I would just inquire formally as

22     to whether the Prosecution has any questions before the -- the Defence

23     begins.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I think we made the position clear.  I

25     haven't seen this witness nor spoken to him.  Your Honours, at the

Page 18527

 1     request of the Defence --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  I heard you Ms. Korner.  It's just that in the

 3     presence of the witness I just wanted to formally get the Prosecution's

 4     position before the Defence began.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour the formal position of the

 6     Prosecution is that they have -- they do not intend to ask any questions

 7     of this witness.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

10             MS. KORNER:  At the moment, anyhow.

11                           WITNESS:  NEDELJKO DJEKANOVIC [Re-called]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Djekanovic.  You remember

15     me, my name is Dragan Krgovic.  I examined you last year, or maybe the

16     year before.

17             Mr. Djekanovic, you have been called to testify about specific

18     and a limited number of circumstances that occurred after your testimony,

19     and my questions are going to deal exclusively with the event that took

20     place sometime in 1992.  Therefore, I'm not going to ask you anything

21     beyond that subject.

22             Sir, you -- in the Autumn of 1992, you were the president of

23     Kotor Varos or the president of the Crisis Staff.  Could you please help

24     us recall which position you held?

25        A.   Yes.  But during that period, I don't know whether it was the

Page 18528

 1     president of the municipality or the president of the Crisis Staff, but,

 2     anyway, I was number one man in the municipality.

 3        Q.   And within your remit, you had contacts with both the

 4     international and local Red Cross organisations; is that correct?

 5        A.   Well, the Red Cross organisations used to come to visit us not

 6     too often, but, yet, they did come, especially representatives of the

 7     local Red Cross.

 8        Q.   Do you know that behind the court building there was the old

 9     court detention facility where prisoners were kept?  Isn't that correct?

10        A.   Yes, I know about that.

11        Q.   Do you know that representatives of the International Red Cross

12     at some time in the autumn, or more precisely in October 1992, visited

13     and made lists of people who were kept there?

14        A.   I don't know how often they went there.  But I do know that on

15     one occasion I was invited to visit the prison together with them and the

16     representatives of the International Red Cross.  And I did.  I indeed

17     went to visit that detention facility behind the court building.

18        Q.   You stated earlier before this Trial Chamber that you knew

19     Mr. Zupljanin and that you had meetings with him.  On the occasion which

20     you have just mentioned, that visit to the prison, was Mr. Zupljanin

21     present then?

22        A.   On that occasion, I'm almost convinced that there were only

23     representatives of the local and International Red Cross organisations

24     with me as well as Mr. Pejic.  A journalist may have been there too, but

25     it was a long time ago so I don't remember all the details 18 or 19 years

Page 18529

 1     later.  I didn't prepare specifically for that.  But I'm almost certain

 2     that Mr. Zupljanin wasn't there on that occasion.  He may have been on

 3     some other occasion, but not then.

 4        Q.   So as far as you know, Mr. Zupljanin never visited any of these

 5     detention facilities in Kotor Varos; correct?

 6        A.   I have just said that he didn't visit any of these with me.

 7     Whether he visited with somebody else, I don't know.  But not with me,

 8     especially not the detention facility behind the court building.  The

 9     other detention facilities mentioned here that were also temporary, I

10     don't know whether or not he visited them.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This is all I have.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise Your Honours.  My

15     colleague has just pointed out to me that something is missing from the

16     transcript.  Let me just check.

17             If I may have a moment, please.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, the translation is not

20     fully clear.

21        Q.   As far as I understood your answers, sir, you stated that

22     Mr. Zupljanin never visited any one detention facility with you,

23     especially not the prison behind the court building in Kotor Varos.

24        A.   No.  He never visited any detention facility with me.

25        Q.   Including this occasion when you were with the representatives of

Page 18530

 1     the International Red Cross.

 2        A.   Yes, I'm certain he wasn't with me then.  As I said, there were

 3     representatives of the International Red Cross, the local Red Cross,

 4     Mr. Pejic and I think there was some journalist but I don't remember of

 5     which media.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.

 8                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

 9        Q.   Can I ask you what makes you so sure, sir, that when you visited

10     the prison with the International Red Cross, Mr. Zupljanin wasn't there?

11        A.   Why I'm so sure?  Well, because, simply that's the way it was.

12     Last time too I was explaining that I did have contacts with Zupljanin

13     but it's clear what kind of contacts those were.

14             And as for this prison and the other detention facilities I only

15     once visited that prison upon the request of the local and the

16     International Red Cross organisations and I repeat that, irrespective of

17     what you were saying, Stojan Zupljanin was not with me at the time.

18        Q.   Despite the fact that this was now some 19 years ago you can say

19     for certain, can you, that Mr. Stojan Zupljanin wasn't there?

20        A.   I'm almost certain that Stojan Zupljanin was not present with me

21     on that occasion.

22        Q.   All right.

23        A.   Last time I was also explaining --

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you weren't asked about this

25     last time.

Page 18531

 1        A.   I was explaining that I did have contacts with Stojan Zupljanin

 2     that were, as I said, last time.  I didn't meet him often especially

 3     during the time-period these questions are -- refer to.  I don't know

 4     what we discussed when we met apart from the contacts we both had with

 5     religious dignitaries.  There was a meeting attended by the

 6     representative of the Islamic community from Banja Luka as well as

 7     Bishop Komarica from Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   I'm only concerned with this one visit to the prison when the

 9     International Red Cross were there.

10             Your were originally informed, weren't you, by the OTP that the

11     Court had ordered you to return to be further cross-examined by the

12     Defence.  That was before Christmas.

13        A.   I first received a phone call at some time in December, possibly

14     early December.  After that, I received a written summons with a court

15     decision.  It was mailed to me.  And it said that I would be called back.

16     That was all before New Year and before Christmas.  Both Catholic

17     Christmas and Orthodox Christmas.

18        Q.   And nobody from the OTP explained to you the topic about which

19     you were to be further cross-examined, did they?

20        A.   Nobody explained anything special to me from the OTP, apart from

21     what they said that I would be contacted by the Victims and Witness

22     services about my travel organisation.  But they took their time to

23     contact me.  I even sent an e-mail to this gentleman whose name I now

24     forgot, because there were only two or three days left until my planned

25     travel date, and nobody had contacted me from the Tribunal.

Page 18532

 1             But about the topic ...

 2        Q.   Yes.  You showed absolutely no hesitation today in answering the

 3     question put to you by Mr. Krgovic.

 4             Did you have contact with the Defence in between Christmas and

 5     today?

 6        A.   I see no reason why I should have hesitated.  First of all, I

 7     didn't watch any transmission but some friends told me that they watched

 8     the hearing when the Court passed its ruling.  And I learned only from

 9     some friends that one of these topics could be what I'd be questioned

10     about subsequently.  Once I received the phone call, I inquired with

11     friends, and they said that they watched a transmission of the hearing on

12     the Internet.  I didn't watch myself.  But I did have an idea of what the

13     topic of my examination would be.

14        Q.   I'm going to ask you the same question again, please.

15             Did you have contact with the Defence between the time you were

16     told you had to come back and today?

17        A.   I had no contacts with anybody.  Nobody contacted me.  And I said

18     that I sought contact with the OTP myself for the organisation of my

19     travel.  Apart from that, I had no contacts with anybody.

20             Some friends called me up who knew about this matter, but I had

21     no contact with anybody.

22        Q.   I'm going to ask you straight out:  Did you see Mr. Krgovic or an

23     investigator working for Mr. Krgovic during the period between

24     Christmas -- or when you got the call from the OTP and today?

25        A.   No, I did not.  I don't have his numbers, nor do I have contact

Page 18533

 1     with him.  I didn't see him.

 2        Q.   No, did he get in contact with you?

 3        A.   No.  No, he didn't call me.

 4        Q.   Did an investigator working for the Zupljanin team get in touch

 5     with you?

 6        A.   I don't know who the investigators are but I said that I only had

 7     contact with my friends.  I didn't have contact with any investigator or

 8     anybody who professed being an investigator on the Defence team of

 9     Stojan Zupljanin.  I don't even know who those people are.

10        Q.   Okay.  Could you tell us which friends told you the topic about

11     which you were to be further cross-examined because they had been

12     watching the transmission?

13        A.   I can.  Why not?

14             First, Momcilo Komljenovic, my friend, told me.  I called him on

15     the phone and said to him that I was called up from The Hague and then he

16     said, Well, I watched the transmission on the Internet.  This could be

17     the topic and I suppose that this is why they're calling you -- what they

18     will be questioning you about.  This was the first information I got.

19        Q.   So can I just confirm that during the week of the 27th, beginning

20     Monday, the 27th of December, you did not meet either Mr. Pantelic,

21     Mr. Krgovic, or any investigator?

22        A.   Yes, I'm confirming it for the third time now.  I didn't meet

23     anybody during that period.

24        Q.   Or Mr. Aleksic.

25        A.   I don't know anybody by the name of Aleksic.

Page 18534

 1        Q.   All right.  So because your friends told you, you were expecting

 2     the question that you were asked, and you are able to say with total

 3     confidence that if Mr. Zupljanin did visit the prison, it wasn't with

 4     you.

 5        A.   I've already answered this question, so I can repeat for the

 6     umpteenth time.  You're obviously trying to trap me.  I said that I

 7     hadn't visited the prison with Mr. Zupljanin.  If you had asked me the

 8     same question ten or 15 years ago I would have given the same answer.  I

 9     have visited the prison, but I haven't visited it with

10     Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.  Nobody briefed me or prepared me to give a

11     different answer.

12        Q.   And you've told us Mr. Pejic was with you.  Was Savo Tepic with

13     you?

14        A.   I understand.  I'm not sure if Savo as then-chief of the police

15     station was with me on the occasion of that visit.  I'm not sure.  Why

16     not?

17             During that period, we rarely met each other except when there

18     were sessions or meetings.  But Savo didn't take part in the visits of

19     the Red Cross, so I'm pretty sure that Savo Tepic wasn't with me there

20     and then.  Maybe you have different information but I'm almost certain

21     that's the way it was.

22        Q.   How are you unsure about Mr. Tepic but absolutely positive about

23     Mr. Zupljanin, if I may ask, sir?

24        A.   Because I know about my contacts with Mr. Savo Tepic and those

25     with Mr. Zupljanin and I know what our respective remits were.  That's

Page 18535

 1     why I'm sure.  And by the way, since representatives of the

 2     International Red Cross were there, they probably made notes.  I didn't

 3     make any notes but I'm sure all this can be checked and verified.

 4        Q.   No, sir, the point is this:  You said, when I asked you whether

 5     Mr. Savo Tepic was there, that you couldn't be sure one way or the other.

 6     You said:  "I'm not sure if Savo as the chief of police" - and this was a

 7     police-run centre, wasn't it - "was there."

 8             So I'm asking you why you can't say about your own chief of

 9     police in Kotor Varos but you can say definitely about Zupljanin.

10        A.   I'm not certain because he also avoided such contacts and we

11     rarely went together anywhere, especially talking about such activities.

12     We rarely went to these places together.  Savo was also a man who tried

13     to stay out of the way, and that's one more reason why I doubt that Savo

14     was present.

15        Q.   What about Slobodan --

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry to interrupt page 19, 2, I

17     believe the witness said we rarely went to any place together, not these

18     places together.

19             Maybe you can clarify that.

20             MS. KORNER:  I would say it's more or less that he said, I don't

21     think we went together anywhere.  But ... "we rarely went to these places

22     together."  Sorry, what's the difference?  Oh I see, do you mean line 19?

23     Yes, all right.

24        Q.   Did you say we rarely went to any place together as opposed to

25     not these places together?

Page 18536

 1        A.   I said that we rarely went together anywhere, talking about the

 2     activities in 1992.  Whether it was a visit to a unit, or a visit to

 3     anything else or especially to the CSB to any meetings or talks.  We

 4     rarely went together anywhere and rarely had contact except for the

 5     meetings of the War Presidency and the meetings of the Crisis Staff

 6     during that period.

 7        Q.   Let me go back to my question.  Was Slobodan Zupljanin there

 8     during this visit?

 9        A.   When I listed all those present I have already said what I had to

10     say, but I can add that I'm sure that Slobodan Zupljanin was not present

11     during that occasion or on that occasion and he wasn't with me.

12        Q.   Okay.  So not sure about Tepic, positive about the two

13     Zupljanins; they weren't there.  That's your evidence, is it?

14        A.   Yes, that's my evidence.

15        Q.   And at no stage have you discussed this with the Defence or been

16     encouraged by anybody to give this answer; is that what you're saying?

17        A.   I can repeat in full, I had no contacts with anybody, nor did

18     anybody prepare me for this testimony.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Djekanovic.

21             I was just curious if you could tell us what the ICRC visited the

22     detention facilities in Kotor Varos at several occasions in 1992.  Do you

23     recall?

24        A.   Your Honour, I really don't know how often the ICRC visited that

25     detention facility behind the court building in Kotor Varos.  I know that

Page 18537

 1     I went there once.  I was contacted by the local Red Cross informing me

 2     that the ICRC would come, and I responded to their call and went there

 3     with them.  I don't know about other visits.

 4             I know that some journalists teams came and the Red Cross was

 5     present relatively often.  But how often exactly I don't know.  I know

 6     about this one occasion when I went to visit the facility with them.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now, which Red Cross are you talking about in

 8     your last answer?  The local Red Cross or the ICRC?

 9        A.   I'm talking about the International Red Cross.  So the ICRC.

10             But together with them there were also representatives of the

11     local Red Cross, and I and Mr. Pejic and some journalist, or journalists,

12     it was an organised visit.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But I suppose that if the ICRC would have visited

14     Kotor Varos which is, relatively speaking, a smaller community, would you

15     have been notified, wouldn't you?

16        A.   Well, I'm not going to say that I had no information about these

17     activities.  But, Your Honour, I must also say that many teams of various

18     kinds, especially media people which means journalists, and then also Red

19     Cross people, and various organisations came to visit.  And I didn't

20     receive information about all these visits.  Often they were unannounced.

21     I was returning from one of our local communes and then I met a team on

22     the way back.  I think it was a CNN team and we talked and then they said

23     to me there ask a camp in Kotor Varos, there is a wire fence, and I

24     remember the conversation I had with them very well.  I said, There is no

25     problem.  If you want, we can go together so you can see.

Page 18538

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Djekanovic.

 2     But this is an huge difference between journalists and members of CNN

 3     teams, on the one hand, and then the ICRC on the other.  You know

 4     perfectly well that the ICRC would never come on an unannounced visit.

 5     Visits from the ICRC would always be organised, announced well in

 6     advance, and with assurance that the local authorities would be present

 7     as well.  So that's why I assume that you would be notified, if the ICRC

 8     paid any visits to Kotor Varos, other than the one that you have referred

 9     to.

10             So I put my question to you again:  Do you have information of

11     any other visits paid by the ICRC to the detention facilities in

12     Kotor Varos in 1992?

13        A.   Your Honours, I know the difference between a media team and the

14     ICRC.

15             I repeat, I do not know of all visits of the ICRC to the

16     detention facility behind the court building in Kotor Varos.  I don't

17     know even of all of the visits of the ICRC to Kotor Varos because not all

18     the visits were announced to the leadership of the municipality or the

19     Crisis Staff.

20             You see, the ICRC often went to see representatives of other

21     religious communities without informing us and we didn't think they had

22     to inform us either.  So I don't know how often they came to visit the

23     parish office in Kotor Varos.  I don't know how often they went to see

24     religious leaders but -- and I didn't have to know that.  But that they

25     were present rather often, that is certainly true.

Page 18539

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And how can you tell me that you're certain that

 2     the ICRC did visit Kotor Varos at the time?

 3             How did you receive this information?

 4        A.   Well, people talked.  So information was passed on.  We did come

 5     to meetings with religious communities.  There were talks and we tried to

 6     find solutions.  But, of course, I needn't know how often exactly the

 7     ICRC came.  I know that there were such visits to Kotor Varos of which I

 8     was not informed.  And that is certainly true.  How many, again I don't

 9     know.  But about the prison, I know I went with them once, but whether

10     they went again and whether they brought any humanitarian aid, I don't

11     know.  And, of course, I know that they had contact with the local Red

12     Cross in Kotor Varos, which is normal.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Djekanovic, are we to understand that your

14     testimony today is that the ICRC may well have visited detention

15     facilities in Kotor Varos at other occasions than the one that we've been

16     speaking about today but that you were not informed of any such visit?

17             Is that what you are saying?

18        A.   That is possible.  I didn't say that they came several times or

19     that they didn't come because I don't know.  I know that I went with them

20     once.  It was the visit of that prison by the ICRC.  And that's what I

21     know.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Djekanovic, for returning to the

24     Tribunal.  You are now released, and we wish you a safe journey back

25     home.

Page 18540

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I just raise one matter arising

 6     out of my questions.

 7             Your Honour, I didn't ask those questions without a basis about

 8     whether he'd spoken to the Defence.  All I want to say is this:  The

 9     Defence heard him give those answers.  The Defence owe a duty to the

10     Court that the Court is not misled and so I'm assuming that for these

11     purposes, whatever else one may think, if the Defence had, in fact, been

12     in contact with him, they would be telling Your Honours that now.

13     Because there's a duty to the Court not for the Court to be misled.

14             JUDGE HALL:  We heard your questions, Ms. Korner.  We didn't

15     interrupt and we assume that the -- the -- if the Defence, according to

16     their duty thought there was something that they should volunteer that

17     they would do so.

18             But as always I apply the presumption of integrity.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I should respond.  Maybe a certain

21     mail that I sent to the Prosecution gave rise to this intervention.  When

22     I was planning my trip to Bosnia during the holidays, I e-mailed the

23     Prosecution asking them whether they would be object to me seeing the

24     witness and that may have led to the problem.  However, because of the

25     snow and the conditions I didn't manage to do anything.  Of course, there

Page 18541

 1     is no problem in telling all this to the Court.

 2             MS. KORNER:  That is perfectly right.  I wasn't going to refer to

 3     internal correspondence between counsel but that's not an answer.

 4             Is Mr. Krgovic saying that -- oh, I see, he is.  All right.

 5     Thank you.

 6             But, of course, it goes further than that.  The question was any

 7     contact, not with Mr. Krgovic but with any of his investigators and/or

 8     anyone else.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  That is as far as we need take this matter at this

10     point.  I am reminded that the next witness's testimony is in closed

11     session, so we would revert to closed session before he is recalled to

12     the stand.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, Mr. Hannis will be dealing with that,

14     so I'll ask Your Honours' permission to withdraw.  Your Honours, the

15     point that's made is:  If the last witness today who has also got

16     protective measures goes into tomorrow then, of course, if Your Honours

17     wanted to sit early to finish him, there wouldn't a problem.  It is only

18     with Mr. Brown that it would cause me a problem.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20                           [Closed session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 18542











11 Pages 18542-18560 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 18561

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] on the 23rd of November of

25     2010, the Prosecution filed a motion requesting reconsideration of the

Page 18562

 1     Chamber's oral decision of the 4th of November admitting into evidence

 2     nine Official Notes.  If reconsideration were to be denied, the

 3     Prosecution alternatively requests leave to add ST-265 to its witness

 4     list and seeks permission to examine ST-228 in-chief concerning "the

 5     conditions under which the interviewee's detainees purportedly gave the

 6     statements at issue."

 7             The Chamber denies the request for consideration as well as the

 8     alternative request to add ST-265 and to expand the examination-in-chief

 9     of ST-228.  Reasons for this decision will be issued shortly.

10             Thank you.  So we go back into closed session after which the

11     witness will be escorted to the stand.

12             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour, I have been informed that the

14     next witness will not arrive here at the Tribunal until about 5.00 so we

15     do have a five-minute wait here at least.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may be excused, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Certainly, Mr. Zecevic.

18             So we rise and -- I don't know if when we resume ...

19             What I'm thinking - and the Court Officer will confirm this - as

20     to whether ...

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, the Court Officer has confirmed that if we were

23     to take a break now and resume at 5.20, we can sit straight through until

24     the time of adjournment for the day at 7.00.

25             So we rise.

Page 18563

 1                           --- Recess taken at 4.58 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 5.32 p.m.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So we go into closed session, after which the

 5     witness could be escorted to the stand.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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Page 18564











11 Pages 18564-18596 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 18597

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 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

10                           January, 2011, at 12.30 p.m.