Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19802

 1                           Tuesday, 19 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

13     Alex Demirdjian, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

16     the Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

18     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And I gather there is no reason to delay

20     the return of the witness to the stand.

21             Mr. Usher, thank you.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one thing, Your Honour.  I was notified that

23     1D469, which was MFI'd due to a revised translation, the double negation

24     in the document, the new -- the revised translation has been uploaded so

25     the document can be de-MFI'd.

Page 19803

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, so ordered.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  You may be seated.

 4             And before Mr. Zecevic resumes, I remind you you're still on your

 5     oath.

 6             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           WITNESS:  ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic.

12             I would like to take a look now at P813, tab 226.

13             Mr. Bjelosevic, you can also see it on the screen in front of

14     you.  It's not a long document; only one page.  Do you see it?

15             This is a document dated the 17th of August, 1992.  It comes from

16     the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was delivered to all Security Services Centres,

18     rather, to the chiefs personally.  At the bottom, we can see typed

19     minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic, a signature, and a stamp.

20             Have you received this document?  What is it about?  And do you

21     recognise the signature?  Can you comment on it?

22        A.   Yes, I recognise the signature and the document.

23             This related to the meeting in Trebinje on the 20th of August,

24     and it said what we had to prepare for the meeting.  As for the

25     signature, it was signed by Petar Vujicic on the authority of the

Page 19804

 1     minister of the interior.  Petar Vujicic was the chief of the analytical

 2     department.

 3        Q.   Did you receive that document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bjelosevic, did you attend this collegium in

 6     Trebinje?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at P163, which

 9     is tab 94.

10        Q.   This is a summary from the MUP management working group meeting

11     held on the 20th of August, 1992, in Trebinje.

12             On page 4, your contribution to the discussion is recorded.  In

13     e-court, it's page 5, but the pagination on the paper is 4.

14             Please take a look at this.  It begins on this page and then goes

15     over to the following page.  So they are pages 5 and 6, or 4 and 5.

16             Could you comment on what you said on this meeting and whether

17     this summary records everything that you said at this meeting, as far as

18     you can remember?

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, we need page 6 in

20     English.  Or, rather, 6 and 7.

21        Q.   Have you read it?

22        A.   I'm about to finish.

23             I read it.  This is what I was saying at the meeting, and these

24     are the problems that I described at the time.  I also tried to describe

25     some of them in my testimony here.  The situation was, indeed, chaotic.

Page 19805

 1     I wish to emphasise what happened after the Federal Republic of

 2     Yugoslavia was declared and the JNA withdrew from our territories.

 3             Some of the units, or, more precisely, parts of some units from

 4     that point on, began to act independently and out of control, which means

 5     that the hierarchy and the structure that existed within the JNA

 6     disappeared.  The Army of Republika Srpska did not manage to take

 7     everything over and the command chains were not established yet, which

 8     means that there were problems of this kind with various groups who would

 9     enter the town during the night.  And that's the essence of what I was

10     saying.  Yes, there was an increase in crime, desertion.  That's about

11     it.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, this meeting, as well as the meeting

13     on the 11th of July, were they both held in two sessions, if you can

14     remember?

15        A.   I think that it was the same.  I think that the minister presided

16     over the meeting, and then when there was a possibility to do so, for

17     instance, to take certain chiefs of certain lines of work, for instance,

18     public security, or state security, or crime prevention, then they spoke

19     about their specific problems separately, and then they managed to reach

20     certain agreements in relation to their line of work.

21        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, do you remember whether any conclusions were made

22     at this meeting?

23        A.   Yes.  First, there was the introduction by the minister, then a

24     discussion.  And then, at the end, as far as I can remember, some

25     conclusions were made, and those conclusions were obligatory for

Page 19806

 1     everyone.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's page 10 in e-court although

 3     the page itself bears number 9.  I think that it's page 11 in English.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, those are the conclusions.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember the conclusions as well?  They

 7     run to four pages.  There are nine items in conclusions.

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  Later on we also received this document.  All the

 9     centres received it, and I remember that we received it.

10        Q.   Can you take a look at page 15 in e-court, in Serbian.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I assume that it's page 17 in

12     English, or 18.  Also, the subsequent pages.  On page 15 in e-court, the

13     last paragraph, and in English -- no, this is not the right page.

14             Can we have the following page.  One more page.  Can we turn one

15     more page in English.  Excuse me, one more page in English.

16        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, here can you see conclusions that were made by

17     the public security department and formulated by Cedo Kljajic.  Do you

18     remember that?

19        A.   Yes.  You can see from these conclusions that a lot of what we

20     discussed on the 11th of July was transformed into a binding conclusion

21     here.  Maybe you remember that they talked about the problem of the

22     official ID because it was misused on a large scale.  There were stations

23     of reserve police where there were forms, empty forms, and then they

24     would take them, fill them in and give them to members of the military

25     and others.  And now I see that they are talking about how to solve this

Page 19807

 1     problem here.

 2             Especially interesting here is the following:  Because of the

 3     complexity of the problems, the help should be extended in a particularly

 4     careful way with a very detailed preparation.

 5        Q.   Excuse me.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page in

 7     e-court, both in Serbian and English.

 8        Q.   Do go on.

 9        A.   War Presidencies and various other organs often requested the

10     police to do this or to do that, and some of those requests were contrary

11     to the laws and the regulations regulating the work of the MUP organs at

12     the time.  One of my colleagues highlighted this problem in one of the

13     conclusions related to that, saying that such requests should be

14     responded to in a very careful manner.

15        Q.   Can you maybe comment on the conclusion numbered with number 3?

16        A.   Yes.  Since the subordination system was in chaos, and we also

17     found that when we visited our stations, and our colleagues from the

18     field also highlighted this problem, one of the conclusions was that the

19     subordination, as the basic principle of the command structure, should be

20     implemented at all levels of the organisation and that the direction and

21     management of work should be done only in accordance with this

22     hierarchical structure.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at 211D1,

25     tab 96.

Page 19808

 1        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, this document is dated the 24th of August, 1992.

 2     Comes from the CSB Doboj.  It says here:

 3             "Plan approved by chief of the centre, Andrija Bjelosevic."

 4             Can you confirm that this is your document and tell us whether

 5     you received this plan of visit, and what is it all about?

 6        A.   After the meeting with the minister and senior officials in

 7     Trebinje, after I returned, I had a meeting with my associates.  So we

 8     decided to make this plan of visits.  The chiefs of the police were

 9     involved in that because they were very experienced people, and can you

10     see here that this lists the dates of visits to certain stations.

11             After this plan was made and signed by these two chiefs,

12     inspectors, I approved it, and it was indeed realised.  They did go to

13     visit to those stations.

14             If you remember yesterday, I mentioned that after the visit, they

15     realised that there was a number of irregularities, for instance, in

16     Samac, and after that we attempted to solve those problems.  Mostly by

17     replacing the chief in Samac.  But, at the time, we couldn't do that.

18             But, anyway, in order to clarify this, this meeting and these

19     conclusions were the starting point for us to go into the field, visit

20     those stations, and try to implement the conclusions from the meeting.

21     This is one of the documents on the basis of which we did that.

22        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, just one more comment in relation to this

23     document.

24             This visit and everything else that is referred to in the plan,

25     is that instructional supervision, as it is called?

Page 19809

 1        A.   Yes.  That is what it says, that certain instructions would be

 2     provided.  As for more drastic irregularities, certain measures were

 3     envisaged.

 4        Q.   When you say certain measures were envisaged, what measures do

 5     you mean?

 6        A.   I mean measures that are envisaged in the rules on disciplinary

 7     responsibility.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

10     like to tender this document.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D505, Your Honours.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] The next document that I wish to show you is

15     1D57, tab 98.

16             This is a dispatch of the ministry of the RS.  The date is the

17     24th of August.  It is signed by the minister, Mr. Mico Stanisic.  There

18     is something handwritten on the top of the page.  There's a name and

19     surname in the corner.  There's a number as well.

20             Tell me, are you familiar with this document?  Have you received

21     it?  And did you act in accordance with it?  Or could you give us your

22     comment in respect of this document.

23        A.   I remember that we received this document.  We did act in

24     accordance with it.  We asked stations for information from their

25     respective territories.  We dealt with the information received, and we

Page 19810

 1     responded to this document, as requested, according to all of these

 2     questions.

 3             I do not recognise the handwriting, though, on the top of the

 4     page.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  The next document that I wish to show you is 1D64.

 6     That is tab 104.

 7             Sir, this is an order of the ministry dated the 6th of September,

 8     1992.  It is signed by the minister.  There's a stamp there as well.

 9     Again, there's something handwritten on the top of the page.  I don't

10     know whether you are aware of what that was.  Again, my same question:

11     Have you received this document?  Do you remember acting in accordance

12     with it, if you did receive it?  What can you tell us?

13        A.   Yes, we received this document, this order.  It comes from the

14     Ministry of the Interior.  It is signed by Minister Stanisic; I recognise

15     his signature.

16             What is handwritten here on top of the page, I don't know.  But I

17     see it says "Kekic" and then "In records."  I don't know.  But I see that

18     obviously it has been kept for the records.

19             I remember the order.  This was the minister's reaction to what

20     was happening on the ground.  He vested his own authority in this.  He

21     wanted people on the ground to act in accordance with regulations.  You

22     can see that that is what the document says here, that people should act

23     in accordance with the ZKP, the Law on the Interior, and so on.

24     Everything else as stated in this document.

25        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, are you familiar with this decree of the

Page 19811

 1     government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the compulsory

 2     hand-over of war booty to war reserves?

 3        A.   Yes, I am aware of that decree.

 4        Q.   In point 3, this document refers to a decree.  Is that the

 5     decree?

 6        A.   Yes, that's it.  And it was published in the Official Gazette, as

 7     stated here, and we received that Official Gazette with that decree.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The next document that I would like you to comment

 9     upon is tab 232.  It is document 1D432.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.  Page 2 of the

11     document itself.

12        Q.   Sir, this is a decision of the Assembly of the Serb Municipality

13     of Doboj.  It is signed by the president of the Serbian Assembly.  It is

14     stamped as well.  The date is the 23rd of July, 1992.  Could you please

15     tell us whether you are familiar with this decision, what it refers to,

16     who signed it, and, generally speaking, your comment.  Thank you.

17        A.   I remember this document.  Indeed, there was this propaganda in

18     the media to the -- I mean, in this way, as is written here, that this

19     was a torture ground and so on.  And I know that a German journalist came

20     with a TV crew to check those allegations, and I remember this decision.

21     I remember that this decision was made, and it is binding on the public

22     security station as well, that they should keep special records of all

23     approvals issued on the basis of this order or this decision.

24             Because of these rumours and because of this propaganda in the

25     media, I also asked the chief of the station to write a memo about people

Page 19812

 1     who were moving out; who was moving out, what was their gender, their

 2     age, who was moving out in general, and how many people were moving out.

 3     I remember this decision of Mr. Ljubicic.  At the time, he was president

 4     of the Assembly.

 5        Q.   You say that this German journalist came with a TV crew to check

 6     these allegations.  It seems to me that a few days ago you said that a

 7     book was published and that you received it.  Am I wrong?  Or is that

 8     correct?  A book written by that journalist?

 9        A.   That's correct.  He wrote a book.  He visited other areas as

10     well.  Not only Doboj.  I think there's a reference to Doboj on some

11     14 or 15 pages.  "Serbien muss Sterben" is the title of the book, and it

12     was translated to me as "Serbia Must Die."  We do have a translation of

13     that book into Serbian.  He explains why he gave such a tendencious title

14     to the book.  It was on account of this propaganda in the media that was

15     directed against Serbia and the Serb people and so on.  So this is his

16     take on that.

17        Q.   All right.  Have you read the book?  If so, did that journalist

18     confirm in that book the --

19             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.

21             MS. KORNER:  I don't think so.  Thank you.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'll move on.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] 1D433.  Can we have a look at that document,

24     please.  Tab 231.

25        A.   Yes, I see the document.  This is a permit allowing a person to

Page 19813

 1     travel abroad.  It was signed by the president of the Assembly of the

 2     Municipality of Doboj, Mr. Drago Ljubicic.  You see who it pertains to,

 3     Ismet Kreho, an ethnic Muslim.  This document allows him to travel to

 4     Barcelona and so on.

 5             There were other documents like this that were issued by the

 6     municipal authorities as permits for persons to travel.

 7             Now that we're on the subject, during a certain period of time,

 8     there was a person from the ICRC that I can recall.  I think this

 9     person's name was Barbara.  She came to Doboj often.  She used to come to

10     see me as well, and she dealt with such issues precisely, making it

11     possible for certain persons to travel, providing them with

12     transportation, and so on.

13        Q.   Tell me, this document, it is signed by the president of the

14     Municipal Assembly.

15        A.   Yes, the president of the Municipal Assembly, Drago Ljubicic.

16        Q.   What are the organs that issued such permits?

17        A.   I have to tell you that there were different organs that issued

18     them, starting with the president of the municipality, then the Red Cross

19     in some cases.  As far as I can remember, the military commands issued

20     such permits as well.  It seems that it depended on who addressed who,

21     asking for a permit.  That's the only explanation I seem to be able to

22     give.

23        Q.   Let us look at document 215D1, tab 107.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 2; and

25     then, after that, page 3.  I mean the Serbian version.

Page 19814

 1        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, this is a document of the CSB of Doboj.  The

 2     8th of September, 1992, is the date.  On the second page, it says chief

 3     of CSB, Andrija Bjelosevic.  It is sent to the public security station in

 4     Doboj.

 5             Could you please confirm whether this is your document.  And

 6     could you explain to us in detail what it was that you were asking for in

 7     this document, and why?

 8        A.   This is a document of the CSB.  I signed it.  I did ask for this

 9     information from the public security station in Doboj.  It is precisely

10     because of all of these different rumours about who was moving out and

11     why and for what reason.  I thought that the matter should be discussed

12     seriously and that it was indispensable to collect proper information

13     that would show us what the picture actually was.  And it is only then

14     that we could make certain conclusions in that respect.  So that is the

15     document in which I requested that information.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Bjelosevic, to whom was this request sent?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The CSB sent it to the public

18     security station in Doboj, because they are the ones who have the records

19     about citizens in the territory of the municipality of Doboj, or, rather,

20     the area of the public security station of Doboj.  They had a service

21     that covered the entire town, or, rather, the entire territory that was

22     within the then-municipality of Doboj.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what about the other SJBs in the Doboj area?

24     Were they also given this request?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.  What other

Page 19815

 1     public security services?  It is sent to the station.  You can see from

 2     the heading, it says:  "Public security station, Doboj."

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may of assistance, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, the question was as follows:

 6     Did you send a memo of this nature to other public security stations in

 7     your area?

 8        A.   No.  Only to the Doboj SJB.

 9        Q.   And why only to the Doboj SJB?

10        A.   Because -- because in that area, there were very many rumours,

11     especially those broadcast in the media.  There were a lot of stories

12     circulating, and I wanted to establish the actual situation and to do

13     something about it.

14        Q.   When you say "in that area," are you referring to the Doboj

15     municipality territory?

16        A.   Yes.  To the Doboj municipality within the boundaries that

17     existed at the time.  I have already spoken about the fact that it was a

18     smaller territory in relation to the pre-war territory of the

19     municipality, that we already had Doboj east, Doboj south area, and now

20     I'm referring to the territory which was under the effective control of

21     the then-Serbian authorities of the Doboj municipality.

22        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Did you receive this information from the

23     public security station?

24        A.   Yes.  I don't know to what extent that information was accurate

25     at the time; but, yes, they provided information to me, and I know that

Page 19816

 1     we analysed it.

 2        Q.   And what was the end result of that analysis of yours?  What did

 3     the analysis show, if you can explain, please?

 4        A.   The first effect we established was that population of all

 5     ethnicities was moving out of the Doboj municipality.  The other thing

 6     that was important was that there were some illegal departures which had

 7     not been reported to anyone.  People simply left without notifying

 8     anyone.  Third fact was that the age of people leaving was quite diverse,

 9     and one of the features was that it wasn't as portrayed by the media.  It

10     wasn't in that scope, and it wasn't done in the manner as portrayed by

11     the media.  I'm now referring to the media in the neighbouring areas, to

12     Radio Tesanj and so on.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

15     tender this document into evidence.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D506, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D261,

19     which is tab 114.

20        Q.   Sir, the previous document we have just commented upon was dated

21     the 8th of September.  The one that we are looking at now is the document

22     of the CSB, dated the 12th of September.  It was sent to the Doboj public

23     security station.  It's an order.  And in the bottom right corner, it

24     says:  "Chief of the Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic."

25             Would you please confirm whether this is your document?  Do you

Page 19817

 1     remember it?  And why was it sent, if you remember?

 2        A.   Yes, this is the document of the Doboj CSB.  I signed it.  It was

 3     sent to the public security station, and at the end of the document, I

 4     state that the chief of the SJB is responsible for implementation of the

 5     order.

 6             As you can see in the preamble of the order, very often people

 7     talked about what had happened in town during the night.  There were

 8     frequent cases of certain groups coming in during the night, breaking

 9     into people's apartment, looting their property, mistreating people.

10     Some people were even taken somewhere.  And up until that time, the

11     public security station did not inform the centre about any of these

12     events, given that the witnesses described the events -- the

13     eye-witnesses described these events in very unclear terms.  For example,

14     they would very often say they wore dark camouflage uniforms.  And the

15     problem was that, at the time, there was no electric power, and at night

16     it was difficult for people to tell apart the camouflage uniforms and

17     blue uniforms, and so on.

18             Let me just mention that the phones were not operational because

19     there was no electricity, and the batteries used for the telephone

20     exchange were simply too old and not operational, so the phones didn't

21     work.  Therefore, timely information, timely notification, simply did not

22     exist.  This is why I asked that the public security station, via their

23     patrols, collect information and also collect information from their

24     crime prevention service to compile it, put it together in a document,

25     and send it to the CSB.

Page 19818

 1        Q.   Would you please remind us who was the chief of the public

 2     security station in Doboj at the time?

 3        A.   At the time, it was Obren Petrovic.

 4        Q.   Was this order of yours complied with?

 5        A.   No, not in the terms contained in the order.  They did something

 6     concerning the crime prevention work, but not as requested in the order.

 7        Q.   You told us in the last sentence of your order, you say that the

 8     chief of the SJB is personally responsible for this?

 9        A.   Yes.  This is what you can read in the last sentence of the

10     order:

11             "The chief of the SJB is personally responsible to me for the

12     implementation of this order."

13             And perhaps it might be important to mention, now that we're

14     speaking about this, the following.  In my personal discussions with the

15     chief of the station, I tried to clarify certain matters, and very often

16     he would reply to me in a short-tempered way.  He would say to me, You

17     see that the war is on, that everybody carries a rifle, they will kill

18     me, they will kill you.  So I had a feeling that he lived in a great deal

19     of fear, that he was quite anxious.  It is true that the times were quite

20     chaotic.

21        Q.   Since you say that this order was not complied with, did you do

22     something about it?  Did you undertake any measures?

23        A.   After this, I called him several times.  We talked, and I asked

24     him to either ensure law and order in the territory of his municipality

25     or else I would ask that he would be replaced, which is what I did later.

Page 19819

 1             And let me just tell you that this was not the only reason for my

 2     action.  In the reserve forces, there were some individuals and groups

 3     that simply did not belong to the reserve police force.

 4        Q.   We will go back to this issue.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 220D1,

 6     tab 112.

 7        Q.   Tell me, please, sir, this document is dated 12th of September,

 8     1992, signed -- or, rather, typed Andrija Bjelosevic, signature, seal,

 9     and this was sent to the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian

10     Republic.

11             At the top, we see handwritten text.  There's a name and a date.

12     Would you please tell us whether this is your handwriting, whether this

13     is your document, whether it was sent to the ministry, and what do you

14     know about this, and what do you know about this handwriting?

15        A.   This is a document from the Doboj CSB.  I signed it.  It was

16     addressed to the Ministry of the Interior.  And in that document, I asked

17     that Official Gazette copies be sent to us for the use of the centre and

18     also stations in the territory of the Doboj CSB, so that we could have in

19     our possession the regulations that had been passed and so that we could

20     act in accordance with those regulations.  Initially all of the federal

21     regulations had been taken over, and then following that, certain decrees

22     were passed, instructions, directives and so on, so it was necessary for

23     us to have all that body of new regulations so that we could comply with

24     them.

25             I see the date at the top, 18th of September, which means that

Page 19820

 1     this is something that was written in the MUP seat, in the MUP

 2     headquarters, in their records department.  I don't recognise the

 3     signature.

 4        Q.   Do you remember whether the MUP acted upon your request?

 5        A.   Yes.  After a certain period of time, we received a number of

 6     copies of the Official Gazette of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina, as it was known at the time, with the regulations that had

 8     been published until that time.  And then I organised that these copies

 9     be distributed to the stations so that each station would have

10     Official Gazettes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

13     would like this to be admitted please.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Why do we need this, Mr. Zecevic?

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I believe it's -- it's

16     important and very relevant, the fact that -- that the CSB and the SJBs

17     were lacking the actual knowledge of the laws at the time.  And, yes,

18     that they were requesting -- it shows the conditions under which they

19     were working, and I think it's important.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Probably similar request for pencils around the same

21     time.  I mean, all of this is -- it's merely a -- I mean, how does it

22     assist, having this piece of paper added to the pile?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I think it depicts the situation in which the

24     SJBs and the CSB Doboj worked at the time.  And I think it is very

25     relevant because -- because, based on that, the certain standards can be

Page 19821

 1     applied.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  But we have the testimony of the witness.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I agree, Your Honours, I just ... thank you.

 4             [Interpretation] The next document, 219D1, tab 113.

 5        Q.   Sir, this document is dated 12th of September, 1992.  It was sent

 6     to public security station, signed by Andrija Bjelosevic.  Would you

 7     please clarify to us -- or, rather, first confirm whether this is your

 8     document, whether you sent it out as the CSB, and do you remember what

 9     this pertains to, since, unfortunately, we do not have the government

10     decision mentioned here?

11        A.   Yes, I recognise the document, emanating from the CSB Doboj.  I

12     signed it, and it was sent as a cover letter with the enclosed document

13     to the public security stations that existed at the time within the

14     jurisdiction of the Doboj CSB.  And attached to this cover letter was the

15     government decision, specifying persons and facilities that would require

16     special security measures, and also an extract from the directive on the

17     scope, method of security provided to certain persons and facilities,

18     important public events and so on.  This was sent to all of the SJBs out

19     there.

20        Q.   If you remember, can you give us some additional explanations.

21     What specific persons, what facilities, and so on.

22        A.   Yes, I remember.  These were persons -- or, rather, functions.

23     Members of the Presidency, president of the government, of the Assembly,

24     members of delegations of foreign states that visited the territories of

25     the then-Serbian republic, as well as the facilities where they had their

Page 19822

 1     headquarters.

 2             In addition to that, there were separate rules about providing

 3     security to public gatherings and mass gatherings in general.  The rules

 4     specified the various levels of security that had to be applied if those

 5     gatherings were attended by certain dignitaries, and so on and so forth.

 6     That's the essence of this document.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not even going to

 9     try to propose this document because I assume that the position of the

10     Trial Chamber will be the same.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I just have a query, if I may, while

12     the document's on the screen, which I don't think the witness explained.

13     It is addressed apparently to public security stations from 1 to 7.  I

14     don't know whether that has any specific meaning or relevance.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you explain this, Mr. Bjelosevic?

17        A.   Sometimes public security stations are listed by their names.

18     Sometimes it says here "to all."  Sometimes it says from number 1 to

19     number 7.  But the essence of the matter is that all of them were

20     included.

21        Q.   Can you maybe then list all those stations.

22        A.   Yes.  Public security station Doboj, Modrica, Samac, Derventa,

23     Maglaj --  yes, Maglaj stationed in Jablanica.  And then Teslic and

24     Petrovo.

25             Those are the stations that comprised the Security Services

Page 19823

 1     Centre in Doboj at the time.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to take a look at 222D1, tab 116.

 3        A.   Excuse me, would you allow me to add one more sentence in

 4     relation to this?

 5        Q.   Certainly.  Go on.

 6        A.   Although at the time the public security station Teslic was

 7     within the Security Services Centre in Doboj, the Law on the Interior

 8     actually envisaged that it should have been a part of the

 9     Security Services Centre in Doboj.  So every time that we would forward

10     any documents to any other stations we would always also send those

11     documents to them.  I just wanted to add this so that it would be clear

12     why this particular station is also included in here.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, Mr. Bjelosevic, I think you told us

14     yesterday that there were nine SJBs under the Doboj CSB's jurisdiction;

15     Brod, Derventa, Odzak, Samac, Modrica, Doboj, Tesanj, Teslic, and Maglaj.

16             These were the nine SJBs that you mentioned yesterday, and I

17     suppose this is what triggered the Prosecution's questions as to why

18     there were only seven mentioned here.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain.

20             Before the war, the territory of the Security Services Centre

21     Doboj covered nine stations, and I already mentioned them.  They were

22     Brod, Odzak, Samac, Derventa, Maglaj, Modrica, Doboj, Teslic, and Tesanj.

23             In the period that we are discussing now, in relation to the

24     previous document, I already said it several times, and I'm going to

25     emphasise it once again, things changed.  So at one moment,

Page 19824

 1     Security Services Centre in Doboj did not have power over any other

 2     station except the Doboj station.  That was the situation at a certain

 3     point in time.  And then things changed.  And now, when we talk about the

 4     period in September, then we are talking about the stations that I just

 5     enumerated.

 6             So I just wanted to add one short explanation related to Teslic

 7     and the public security station in Teslic because it was a specific

 8     situation.  The Municipal Assembly in Teslic on the 6th of April, 1992,

 9     decided that this municipality and all the organs of the municipality

10     should be associated with the Autonomous Region of Krajina.  So the

11     public security station there did that.  However, the law remained the

12     same.  There were no changes in the law.  So whenever I sent any of our

13     documents to our public security stations, the public security stations

14     covered by the centre in Doboj, I would also send those documents to

15     public security station in Teslic because that was the law, while, in

16     actual fact, they actually functioned as part of the CSB in Banja Luka.

17     That's just what I wanted to explain here.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much for this clarification, and I

19     apologise for not having picked this up from your testimony.

20             So if Doboj originally had nine SJBs under its jurisdiction, and

21     if Teslic then, on 6 April 1992, decided to join the ARK in Banja Luka,

22     then that would leave eight SJBs under this jurisdiction, and that brings

23     me back to the number of SJBs mentioned in your letter here.  Only --

24     where there are only seven.

25             I apologise, but I don't know if this is important, but -- but it

Page 19825

 1     may be.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is up to you to

 3     decide whether it's important.  I am certainly prepared to explain it

 4     once again so that it is clear to everybody.  Maybe I should do that.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So now we know the situation

 7     related to Teslic.

 8             The situation deteriorated in April, the security situation in

 9     particular.  In my first days of testimony here, I already explained what

10     happened to the public security station Brod.  I said that practically

11     from March onwards, this station was associated with the police

12     administration in Slavonski Brod.  Later on, with the barricades and

13     guards, and also with the establishment on the front line, all

14     communication with the public security station in Odzak was severed.

15     Public security station in Derventa was occupied by -- well, I don't know

16     if I can really call it Territorial Defence because I already told you

17     there were some volunteers involved.

18             Anyway, this station also left our jurisdiction, the Doboj centre

19     jurisdiction.  Sometime mid-April, public security station in Samac,

20     together with the whole municipality, was taken over by the military

21     forces.

22             Modrica had by that time already been cut off from Doboj.  There

23     was fighting around Modrica and two or three times Modrica went from one

24     hand to another pair of hands, another forces.  And sometime in April, we

25     even received a dispatch saying, "We are not going to obey CSB Doboj and

Page 19826

 1     we are not going to communicate with Doboj at all."

 2             Did you get the picture now?  At a certain moment, that was the

 3     situation.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir, this was very illustrative.

 5             Back to you, Mr. Zecevic.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, please.

 7             Mr. Bjelosevic, I hope I'm not adding to the confusion that I'm

 8     trying to clarify.  There were nine SJBs before the war; seven in

 9     September -- the seven you mentioned.  Yes?

10             Three from before the war are not under CSB Doboj anymore.

11     That's Brod, Odzak, and Tesanj -- no, Tesanj, right?  So that makes six?

12     And there's one that was not there before the war, Petrovo.  Okay.  Can

13     you -- where is Petrovo?  Where does it come from?  Is it another name

14     for something that existed before?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The territory of Petrovo

16     municipality used to belong to the Gracanica municipality before the war,

17     and part of it was Lukavac municipality.  And then Petrovo municipality

18     was established.  It means that it was a completely new municipality.  It

19     did not exist before.  And then sometime in August, in Petrovo

20     municipality, in accordance with the Law of Administrative Division of

21     the Territories, a public security station was established as well, from

22     scratch.  New municipality, new station.

23             To clarify one thing about Maglaj.  The town of Maglaj and the

24     greater part of the territory of that municipality was controlled by

25     Muslim and Croat forces.  One part, towards Ozren and Doboj, was then the

Page 19827

 1     part of the territory where some Serb policemen who had left Maglaj

 2     formed an area that was administratively within the Maglaj municipality

 3     but it was controlled by Serbian forces.  So, at that time, there was a

 4     public security station Maglaj headquarter in the town of Maglaj itself,

 5     and then there was also a Maglaj station that was controlled by the

 6     Security Services Centre in Doboj.  And then, later on, when the

 7     territories to the north and to the east were liberated, Derventa was

 8     liberated, and then the public security station in Derventa was

 9     re-established.

10             In Modrica also the public security station was re-established.

11             In Odzak, there was military rule, as well as in Brod, but, later

12     on, things also started functioning there, and public security stations

13     were established there as well.

14             So situation changed with time, depending on who controlled the

15     territory, which elements of our services functioned.  And now, if we

16     talk about the relevant period of time, relevant for this particular

17     document, at that point in time, we had the seven stations that I listed

18     earlier.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to be complete, what happened to Tesanj

20     station at that time?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tesanj?  Public security station in

22     Tesanj remained within the jurisdiction of the then-Muslim forces, and

23     even today, it's within the Federation.  And that goes for the whole

24     territory and municipality.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

Page 19828

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I see the time.  Perhaps this would

 2     be an appropriate moment to take a break.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  There are certain matters with which the

 4     Chamber intends to deal with during the break, so I'm going to extend the

 5     break to a half-hour.

 6             So we would resume, well, at 11.00.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

10             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is being escorted back to the

11     stand, the Chamber has a brief ruling to deliver which is as follows.

12             The Chamber has considered the motion of the Defence of Mico

13     Stanisic regarding the testimony of the witness Christian Nielsen, and

14     the submissions in response of the Prosecution --

15             MS. KORNER:  Can I just -- sorry to interrupt.  Can I remind

16     Your Honours that both the Defence motion and our response were filed

17     confidentially.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So we go into private session.

19             Thank you, Ms. Korner.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19829

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Zecevic.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

14             [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown document

15     222D1, tab 116.

16        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, this is a document of the Doboj CSB signed by

17     Chief of the Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic, submitted to the public security

18     stations of the area.  The document consists of three pages.  On pages 2

19     and 3, we find the attachments to this letter.

20             So could you please confirm whether this is a document of yours,

21     who it was sent to, and for what reason?

22        A.   This is a document of the CSB Doboj.  It was sent to the public

23     security stations, in order to provide a review of all the orders and

24     instructions that were issued by the Doboj CSB and the Ministry of the

25     Interior.  All of that was listed here and submitted to the stations so

Page 19830

 1     that they could use that and act in accordance with these orders and

 2     instructions that had been issued.

 3             I think that this became necessary when we realised, during the

 4     course of a meeting, that not all stations had these documents.  Now why

 5     did they not have them?  We saw how some of these public security

 6     stations were being established.  Some were established earlier, some

 7     were established later.  Some received all the documents that had been

 8     issued immediately, and others did not, so then we realised that everyone

 9     needed to be provided with a full set of documents.  That was the

10     purpose.

11        Q.   Were the stations duty-bound to carry out these instructions in

12     their work?

13        A.   Of course.  They were duty-bound to do that so the very word

14     itself, "order," makes it binding.  And instructions as well.  They are

15     thereby instructed as to how they should behave.

16        Q.   During those instructional supervisions, or inspections, was it

17     being established whether these orders and instructions were being abided

18     by?

19        A.   The work of the service is regulated by the Law on the Interior

20     and bylaws that are derived from that law.  These bylaws regulate certain

21     areas more specifically.  Therefore, these instructions are binding as

22     well and that they must be complied with.  The supervision that was

23     carried out, regardless of whether it was carried out by inspectors

24     coming from the headquarters of the MUP or inspectors from the CSB, was

25     precisely aimed at that.  Namely, establishing whether public security

Page 19831

 1     stations acted in accordance with the law and these bylaws that were

 2     there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

 5     like to tender this document.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Again, my refrain, Mr. Zecevic, why do we need this

 8     to -- which merely substantiates the -- what one would expect to have

 9     been the routine decisions of the administration in this situation,

10     which -- to which the witness has testified?

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I think it's relevant because in the

12     next two pages is the list of the instructive acts and the orders from

13     the Ministry of Interior of RS.  And it shows that up until second part

14     of September, some of the SJBs in the territory of this CSB were not in

15     possession of these instructive acts or orders, and I think that --

16     that's -- in our opinion that is very relevant.

17             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I'm not objecting to the

18     document but I don't think comments such as that it shows up to the

19     second part of September, some of the SJBs in the territory were not in

20     possession of these instructions, is a proper comment.  It actually

21     doesn't say that at all.  It just says here they are.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, we have the witness's testimony to that

23     effect, and it's up to the Trial Chamber to decide what was said.

24             JUDGE HALL:  We'll admit it as an exhibit.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D507, Your Honours.

Page 19832

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 2     document 230D1, tab 139.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, while that is happening perhaps I

 4     better just correct the transcript, page 30, line 9.  It shows question,

 5     which seems to suggest it was Mr. Zecevic, but it was, in fact, me.  I

 6     think it is pretty obvious from what is said, but nonetheless ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, did you say 128?

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   129, 230D1.  We have it on our screens.

10             Sir, this is a document of the CSB Doboj.  It is the Department

11     for Administrative, Legal, and Personnel Affairs.  The date is the

12     24th of September, 1992.  There's a list of the public security stations

13     to which this document was sent.  And then it is signed by chief of the

14     department, we see his name and we see a signature.  Can you tell us who

15     this person is, who actually signed this document, and what is the

16     purpose of the document?

17        A.   The document is from the CSB Doboj.  It is signed by the chief of

18     the Department for Administrative, Legal, and Personnel Affairs.  It was

19     signed by Slavko Paleksic, the man who was the chief at the time.  This

20     is an invitation to a working meeting within his own line of work.  He is

21     inviting the chiefs of such departments from all the public security

22     stations involved, and he is providing them with the agenda.  So this is

23     along a specific line of work.  Perhaps I could put it that way.

24        Q.   While we're on the document, sir, could you tell us what your

25     recollection is, if you do remember, this activity along specific lines

Page 19833

 1     of work, coming from the CSB Doboj and involving all the public security

 2     stations in the area, when did that actually start happening?

 3        A.   In certain segments, it started happening in the month of

 4     July 1992, but we can say that it fully started functioning in all

 5     segments; namely, the milicija, the Crime Investigation Service, the

 6     administrative legal department, the financial department.  We can say

 7     that this started functioning in August.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

10     like to tender this document as well.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Was the meeting held, Mr. Bjelosevic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Do we need the document, Mr. Zecevic?

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, if I don't think I need it, I would not have

16     offered it, Your Honours.  But I'm in your hands.  We have the testimony,

17     I agree, to that effect.

18             JUDGE HALL:  I would have thought that the meeting would be the

19     important point here.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We are still on 139, are we?  Tab 139.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  129.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  129.  Sorry.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

24             Well, Your Honours, the purpose of this document is to show

25     exactly what I was -- what I asked the witness, about the actual start of

Page 19834

 1     the function of the CSB Doboj in relation to its SJBs on the lines of

 2     work, and that is -- that is the only purpose of -- of this document.  No

 3     other purpose.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we have his testimony, which is sufficient.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand and appreciate.  Thank you very much,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             [Interpretation] Can we show the witness 231D1.  That is tab 131.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, this is a rather poor photocopy but it's the only

 9     one we have.  It is a document of the CSB Doboj, the 24th of September,

10     1992.  Again, it was submitted to public security stations 1 through 7,

11     and what is typewritten at the bottom of the page is:  "Chief of the

12     Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic."  There's a signature there as well.

13             Can you please confirm whether this is, indeed, your document?

14     Can you tell us whether the document was sent, this order?  Also, could

15     you tell us what was the reason why you sent this document and what it

16     relates to?  Thank you.

17        A.   This is a document of the CSB Doboj.  I signed it.  It was sent

18     to the public security stations.  The objective of this document is to

19     ask very specifically, once again, for regulations to be observed in

20     respect of the criteria for the reserve police.  In certain stations,

21     there were some members of the reserve milicija who had not even done

22     their military service, whose ability was therefore quite unreliable.

23     Then this followed.

24             What is being asked for is that these criteria be applied by all

25     means and that such persons have to meet all the criteria required by

Page 19835

 1     specific clearance.  That is to say, that persons who have a criminal

 2     record cannot be on the reserve police force, also persons against whom

 3     there were proceedings that were under way.  There were several orders to

 4     this effect, and this is one of them, in order to cleanse the reserve

 5     milicija, as it were.

 6             There's a procedure which says what to do with those who do not

 7     meet the criteria for being members of the police.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us something about bullet point 3 in this order.

 9        A.   This is a warning which says that if this order is not applied,

10     people who have failed to apply it will be taken to task.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

12     would like to tender this document.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.  But I have a question of the

14     witness.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 1D508, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, I understand your answer to

17     counsel's question initially when dealing with this document, that it was

18     a reminder.  But I'm wondering whether there was any specific incident

19     which triggered the -- or which prompted you to re-issue -- to issue this

20     order at this time.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had information that in some

22     public security stations there was still members of the reserve police

23     who did not meet the required criteria; those prescribed by the law and

24     the instructive documents issued by the ministry.  That was the reason to

25     reinforce the message decisively and explicitly, and that's why the order

Page 19836

 1     was issued to implement the procedure to clean the reserve police force

 2     from those who had criminal records; in other words, who were not

 3     suitable for the police tasks and duties.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

 5             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 7     250D1, tab 163.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, this is a dispatch.  It bears the date

 9     6 November 1992.  In the right-hand corner, you will see that it says the

10     Security Services Centre Doboj.  It was send sent to the administration

11     for police duties and assignments at the MUP headquarters.  The typed up

12     signature is that of Andrija Bjelosevic, but there's the word "for."

13             Can you confirm that this is a document sent from your CSB?  Was

14     it sent under your authority, with your knowledge, and what does this

15     document refer to?

16        A.   This is a dispatch which was sent from the Security Services

17     Centre in Doboj.  It was sent to the administration for police duties and

18     assignments, whereby we replied to a dispatch, or rather, an order issued

19     by the minister under the date you can see here and -- dated

20     23 October 1992.  I remember the contents or, rather, what that was all

21     about.  A ratio of the reserve police and the active police was

22     established.  If my memory serves me well, I believe that that ratio was

23     1:2, which means that in -- if in one police station there were 50 active

24     police officers, there could also be a hundred reserve police offers at

25     the most to make the ratio 1:2.

Page 19837

 1             In the territory or, rather, in the area of the Doboj CSB, we did

 2     that.  And this was signed by the chief of the police department in the

 3     CSB Doboj, Mr. Mirko Blazanovic.  That department was duty-bound to

 4     implement the minister's order.  When the order was implemented, a

 5     dispatch was sent to the minister to confirm that his order had been

 6     carried out.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

 9     would like to tender this document.

10             JUDGE HALL:  The usual question, Mr. Zecevic.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I will remind you that there is

12     already in the -- in the exhibits a number of documents and the orders

13     from the ministry concerning this rationalisation of the active towards

14     the reserve police ratio.  And this document confirms that at the

15     beginning of November this order was implemented in -- in the CSB Doboj

16     territory.  And I believe that this -- this information is important,

17     first of all, because it shows that the order of the ministry is

18     implemented and the time when it was implemented only, and actually

19     showing the span of time from the -- from the first order and then

20     consecutive orders until the implementation in the territory.

21             That is why I think it's relevant for us.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, is there something special or

23     peculiar about the span of time?  It's an order from the 23rd of October,

24     if I'm not wrong, and it's implemented in the -- in the first week of

25     November.

Page 19838

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  But --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I mean, it's a reorganisation.  It's not

 3     something you do instantly.  So it's not -- it's normal that it takes

 4     some time.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  But the first order is -- the first order on

 6     this matter dates, if I -- if I correctly remember at this moment, but I

 7     can check at the break, it dates in May 1992.  That is precisely the

 8     point.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the purpose of tendering this document is to

11     show that it took months before --

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, and that --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- implementing the order.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- the order from the ministry or the minister

15     would take a certain amount of time because of the situation in the

16     territory to be implemented according to the order.  And may I add, it

17     needed to be re -- re-ordered couple of times before it was implemented.

18     Yes.  That is precisely the reason.

19             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... that's a speech and a

20     comment.  But, Your Honours, can I make it clear, our case is that the

21     orders issued by Mico Stanisic were being implemented.  I mean, so I'm

22     not quite clear where this is getting us.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D509, Your Honours.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 3 --

Page 19839

 1     38D1 at tab 136.  38D1.

 2        Q.   Sir, these are minutes of the Expanded Session of the

 3     Expert Advisory Board of the Ministry of the Interior held on the

 4     3rd of October, 1992, in Bijeljina.  Among those present, we see your

 5     name.

 6             Could you please look at the document, and can you confirm

 7     whether you, indeed, attended that meeting.  What do you remember about

 8     discussions at that meeting?  And can you also tell us whether any

 9     conclusions were reached at the end of the meeting?

10        A.   Yes, I remember the meeting.  It was, indeed, held.  I attended

11     the meeting.  Subsequently, we were provided with the minutes.

12             The prevailing issues at the meeting were the improving of the

13     work discipline, the implementation of certain laws and regulations, and

14     in that sense, at the end of the meeting, several conclusions or

15     directives or guide-lines were passed.  You can call them whatever, but

16     the essence of the matter is the same.  One of those issues was providing

17     accommodation for the employees of the Ministry of the Interior.  We also

18     established rules or, rather, criteria which would be applied to dealing

19     with the issue.  A commission was set up at the ministry level, and

20     subcommissions were to be set up in the territories of CSBs that would

21     deal with the issue.  It was pointed out that all the services of the

22     state and public security services had to be linked up, and so on and so

23     forth.

24        Q.   I am particularly interested in your comment regarding page 5 of

25     the document, paragraphs 6, 7, and 11.  6, 7, and 11.

Page 19840

 1             You confirm that you attended the meeting, so I would like to

 2     invite your comment on these bullet points.

 3        A.   Yes.  In paragraph 6, people put in charge of preparing the

 4     report on the work of the ministry in the third quarter.  Tasks were

 5     assigned to the chiefs of administrations and the chiefs of centres to

 6     carry out the activity and prepare information in a timely manner.  I

 7     believe that we did that and that we sent a report for this quarter.

 8             In bullet point 7, you can see that all administrations of the

 9     ministry were hereby tasked with informing, by dispatch, all the internal

10     organisation units within their responsibility.  That reporting along the

11     lines of work had to be put in place and it had to function; that was one

12     of the tasks.

13             Further on, bullet point 11, you said, right?  Here heads of

14     administrations in the ministry were given full legal powers to organise

15     the operation of their respective administrations along the lines of work

16     they controlled.  At the same time, they were made responsible.  They had

17     the powers but they also had full responsibility for the work of the

18     staff along the lines of work.

19        Q.   Do you remember that, at the meeting, you also discussed the

20     setting up of departments of the special police brigade in the seat --

21     or, rather, the departments of that unit in the security centres in the

22     territory?

23        A.   Yes.  The special police brigade already was fully operational.

24     It had detachments on its strength, and some of the detachments already

25     had their bases.  I remember that the security situation was very

Page 19841

 1     complex, very critical, very complicated, and that is why it was decided

 2     that those detachments should be deployed across the territory and that

 3     they should have certain obligations.  Or, in other words, chiefs of

 4     security centres had certain powers with regard to those detachments in

 5     respect of certain situations.  In other words, they could engage those

 6     detachments.  However, they were requested to inform the ministry and the

 7     brigade commander as urgently as possible about their engagement and that

 8     engagement had to be approved and confirmed by the brigade commander.

 9             In Doboj, there was the base or the seat of the 5th Detachment.

10     That's where the unit was based.  The 5th Detachment was based in Doboj.

11     There was one in Banja Luka.  And let me not going on enumerating their

12     places of deployment.

13        Q.   Sir, the detachments that comprised part of the special police

14     brigade and that were accommodated at certain Security Services Centre in

15     the territory, who commanded over them?

16        A.   The immediate command was the detachment commanders, and they

17     were subordinated to the brigade commander.  And they were also, in a

18     certain fashion, related to the chiefs of the Security Services Centre.

19        Q.   Who was, at the time, in 1992, the commander of the special

20     police brigade?

21        A.   At the time, Milenko Karisik was the commander of the

22     special police brigade.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

25     document.

Page 19842

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D510, Your Honours.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have P405.  It's

 4     tab 235.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, I'll wait for you to find the document.

 6        A.   I found it.

 7        Q.   Before we comment on the document, let me ask you the following.

 8     The MUP inspectors from the headquarters, would they arrive for

 9     instructive visits in 1992?  And do you remember how many times they

10     arrived to the CSB in Doboj?

11        A.   Yes, they came.  I think it was sometime in the autumn, and it

12     was about the line of work of the police, the crime service, and later on

13     also the line of work of administrative affairs.  I think they didn't

14     coming together.  I think that the inspectors in charge of the line of

15     work of the police and the crime department arrived first.

16        Q.   Do you maybe remember how many times they came?

17        A.   I think they came twice in that autumn of 1992, if I remember it

18     correctly.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Take a look at this document.  Page 5 in Serbian

20     contains the names of the inspectors who performed the instructive

21     control, as well as their signatures.  This document is dated

22     22nd of October, 1992.

23             Do you remember that the inspectors arrived?  Do you remember

24     what was the topic of the discussion?  And what do you know about this

25     document?

Page 19843

 1        A.   Yes, they arrived.  And it was precisely Nikola Milanovic,

 2     Ostoja Minic, and Radenko Vujicic who arrived in one such visit.  If I

 3     remember it correctly, first, they had a meeting in the centre.  Then

 4     they went to visit some of the stations in the field.  And then based on

 5     their observations, they drafted this report.  Yes, exactly.  Here they

 6     list the stations that they visited.

 7             I think we received one copy of this report.  And then after

 8     their tour, they briefed us about their observations in the field.

 9        Q.   Take a look at page 2, the third paragraph, beginning with the

10     words, "In CSB Doboj ..."

11             Can you comment on this, if you remember?

12        A.   If I remember this correctly, there was a memo sent to certain

13     places, among others, to the command of the Operations Group Doboj.  It

14     was a long time ago, and I can't remember precisely the content of this

15     memo.

16             There were similar such memos containing complaints.  They would

17     come to my desk in the centre.  Some of them would only go to the

18     operations group command, and some of them only to the ministry.  Very

19     often, some of these complaints would only be signed by combatants or

20     police and would not contain any specific names.  But in all such cases,

21     we verified the allegations, and in this particular case, I cannot

22     remember what it was about.  I do remember that a memo was sent with the

23     complaint.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you comment on page 5 of this document, the

25     last two sentences in the first paragraph.  The sentence beginning with:

Page 19844

 1     "It was established in the SJB Doboj ..."

 2        A.   Yes.  They found certain problems in the public security station

 3     Doboj, and here they say that the -- there was no criminal log, the

 4     KU log.  They say that a deadline was agreed and that all the entries

 5     were supposed to be entered retroactively, based on the temporary

 6     log-books that should have been kept.  Or, alternatively, this should

 7     have been done based on other documents.

 8             Yes, there were certain problems.  We also pointed to those

 9     problems.  When I say "we," I mean the inspectors in my centre.  And here

10     we can see that the inspectors who came from the headquarters, from the

11     MUP, established that certain problems were ongoing.

12        Q.   Just one more thing about this document.  Page 4 regarding the

13     situation in Bosanski Samac, we see the mention of some decision by

14     SAO Semberija and Majevica.  Do you know what this is about, and can you

15     comment on it?  It's the third sentence in the paragraph pertaining to

16     Bosanski Samac.

17        A.   Yes, I remember this.

18             I would like to remind you again that from April onwards, there

19     was no communication and no contagious territory between Doboj and the

20     public security station in Samac, and that's when the Crisis Staff

21     appointed the chief of the public security station there.  And the Crisis

22     Staff, probably its president or somebody else, contacted the

23     representatives of the organs of SAO Semberija and Majevica, and since

24     this was a compact territory and there were no connections with Doboj, as

25     far as I know, they requested the public security station in Samac -- or,

Page 19845

 1     more precisely, the whole municipality of Samac to be connected and

 2     included in that territory.

 3             However, when the situation changed and there was a territorial

 4     link between us, then this station, the public security station in Samac,

 5     continued to function as part of the CSB Doboj.

 6             Later on, I don't remember exactly when it was, there was a

 7     reorganisation, and this station ended up as part of the CSB Bijeljina.

 8     That was later on.  In this period, it was still part of the CSB in

 9     Doboj.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I now want to show you 1D52, tab 154.

11             JUDGE HALL:  A small point, Mr. Zecevic.  I think the answer is

12     self-evident, but in the first part of your -- of the answer to your last

13     question, I heard in the interpretation, and the transcript confirms it,

14     but the witness is recorded as saying, "There is no communication and no

15     contagious territory," and then later on he talks about communication.  I

16     assume he meant "contiguous."

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe so, yes.  I'm not sure -- I know the word

18     "contiguous."  So that's my problem.  Otherwise I would confirm.

19             JUDGE HALL:  But please confirm it for the record that that is

20     what he meant to say.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you, in your reply, Mr. Bjelosevic, when

23     you were commenting on the previous document, you said:

24             "I want to remind you that from April onwards, there was no

25     communication and no ... territory between Doboj and the public security

Page 19846

 1     station in Samac, and that's when the Crisis Staff appointed the chief of

 2     the public security station there."

 3             You were describing the character of the territory in question.

 4     Could you explain that?  There was no communication, and it was what kind

 5     of territory?

 6        A.   I said that there was no communication between Doboj and Samac.

 7     By this I mean telephones and telexes, and there was no contiguous

 8     territory.  It was not possible to pass through, because the area of

 9     Modrica and Odzak was the area that cut off the communication between the

10     two points.

11        Q.   You didn't understand me.  I asked you about the character about

12     the territory comprised by SAO Semberija and Majevica --

13             JUDGE HALL:  I think I understood.  I think his answer is

14     sufficient, Mr. Zecevic.

15             Thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] The following document is 1D52,

17     154.

18        Q.   This is a document originating in the Ministry of the Interior,

19     Crime Prevention Administration.  Mandatory instructions.  October 1992,

20     Bijeljina.

21             Mr. Bjelosevic, are you familiar with these instructions?  Were

22     they received in the Doboj CSB?  Were your stations informed about this,

23     and did you apply it in your work?

24        A.   Yes, I remember this.  This instruction defines the procedure to

25     be followed when searching for persons and property, who is authorised to

Page 19847

 1     initiate such a search, how it should be broadcast, and I can tell you

 2     that this instruction was applied in practice.

 3             Yesterday we touched upon this subject, and I can tell you that

 4     it was done in accordance with this instruction.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  That's why I showed you this document.

 6             The following document is 241D1.  I think it's 241D1.  Just a

 7     moment.  Tab 152.  Yes, I have received a confirmation that it is 241D1.

 8             So this is a document originating from the Security Services

 9     Centre in Doboj.  The date is the 27th of October, 1992.  It was

10     addressed to public security station.  Your name is typed, and there's

11     also a signature.

12             Is this your document and what is it about?

13        A.   It is a document of the CSB Doboj.  I signed it.  It was sent out

14     to the public security stations.  The objective was to regulate the

15     situation in terms of dealing with the then-Federal Republic of

16     Yugoslavia.  I remember that at one of the meetings, it was stated that

17     public security stations were directly addressing the organs of the

18     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and that that is something that left a

19     poor impression and was unacceptable.  So that is what was requested

20     then, and, later on, that's what I asked people on the ground to do.

21     Namely, that they should only communicate through the administration of

22     the ministry, that the following -- that the proper chain should be

23     followed, and that it's the ministry that had the right to communicate

24     that way.

25        Q.   I would just like to ask you for your comment, because you

Page 19848

 1     confirmed that this is your document.

 2             Would you please have a look at the last paragraph in this

 3     communication, in this document.

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  That public security stations in the territory of the

 5     centre should inform by dispatches the Crime Prevention Administration of

 6     any criminal reports that are filed.  And from then onwards, I think

 7     that's the way it worked, both in terms of general crime and economic

 8     crime.

 9        Q.   Could you just explain this to us?  What is stated here is that

10     they are obliged to inform by dispatch the Crime Prevention

11     Administration of any criminal reports that are filed.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Does that pertain to the period up until then?

14        A.   Up until then.  So that there would be proper records in the

15     administration, so that they could have all of this information available

16     and be in a position to use it.

17        Q.   Could you please describe to us what "general crime" means?  What

18     is included under "general crime"?

19        A.   General crimes are property-related crimes, homicides, causing

20     general danger to the public.

21             Economic crime is singled out, and it has to do with certain

22     crimes in the field of the economy, different kinds of embezzlement.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

25     like to have this document admitted into evidence, please.

Page 19849

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D511, Your Honours.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see the time.

 4     However, I don't know what your instructions are in view of the next

 5     break.  When should we take the next break?

 6             JUDGE HALL:  We may as well stick to the usual time and take it

 7     at this point.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  So we will resume in 20 minutes.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, your instruction from last Friday was

14     that we discuss the scheduling, and I propose that we take the

15     adjournment earlier with the witness so we can discuss it, five minutes

16     prior to the end of today's session.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you may continue, Mr. Zecevic.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

21             [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown 213D1,

22     tab 118.

23             Your Honours, I have four documents about the same issue.

24     Therefore, I would like to tender just one of them, whether -- whereas, I

25     would like to show only -- just to show the others, just to display the

Page 19850

 1     dates when they were issued, and ask the witness to confirm their

 2     issuance for the record.  I would not seek to tender all four documents.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  As you wish, Mr. Zecevic.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 5             [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown the second

 6     page of this document.

 7        Q.   The date is 1st September 1992.  The signatory of the document is

 8     the chief of centre, Andrija Bjelosevic.  It was sent to the Ministry of

 9     the Interior.  And the subject is: Nominations for positions of chief and

10     commander of Petrovo SJB.

11             Could you please confirm that this document was issued by

12     yourself, and can you please explain the underlying reasons for sending

13     this document.

14        A.   Yes.  This is a document sent by the Security Services Centre

15     Doboj.  I, indeed, signed it.  It was sent to the Ministry of the

16     Interior of the Republika Srpska, and the subject is: Nominations for

17     positions of chief and commander of the Petrovo SJB.

18             We have already discussed the Petrovo SJB today.  It was set up

19     in the month of August 1992.  And then, pursuant to the prescribed

20     procedure, nominations had to be made for positions of chief and

21     commander of the public security station.  And you can see that that was,

22     indeed, done.

23             There are three names here as nominees for the chief of the SJB.

24     There are also nominations for the position of commander.  There are two

25     candidates.

Page 19851

 1        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Bjelosevic, was this the first time that chief and

 2     commander were appointed in this public security station?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Why?  What was the reason?

 5        A.   Well, the Petrovo SJB did not exist prior to that.  It was a new

 6     municipality on the map, as we have already stated.  Those were the first

 7     nominations that were sent to the minister, and the minister then issued

 8     a decision on the appointment of both the chief and the commander of the

 9     SJB.  And if I remember it well, Slobodan Katanic was appointed as the

10     chief of the SJB, and I'm not sure whether Savo Gojkovic was appointed as

11     commander.  I'm not sure, but I believe that that was the case.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

14     would like to tender the document.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Could you show us, Mr. Zecevic, how this would

17     assist?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the document shown to the witness

19     last week, at the beginning of my direct examination, was the order of

20     the minister dated 15th of May, where he instructs for which posts the

21     agreement or the -- the agreement by the minister is required, such as

22     chief of the SJB or commander of the SJB.  However, we had a number of

23     examples in the -- in the case where this procedure was not followed.

24             Now, this is the document which shows how it should have been

25     done, and that is precisely the reason why I'm showing it, to show

Page 19852

 1     what -- what would be the proper procedure in accordance with the order

 2     of the minister from 15th of May which should have been followed.

 3             Now, I have a number of documents, as I said, four documents,

 4     which illustrate the time when this procedure was actually -- started to

 5     be followed, and I think it's -- therefore, it's relevant.  This is just

 6     an illustration.  This document is an illustration on -- of the

 7     procedure.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  But reminding ourselves that this -- that we are

 9     engaged in a trial and there is an indictment, and that this is not a

10     broad-ranging commission of inquiry into the events that would have

11     happened over the relevant period, I still have some difficulty bringing

12     this -- the contents of this document home to what we are about,

13     Mr. Zecevic.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, as I said on previous occasion when

15     Ms. Korner was -- was objecting to certain --

16             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honour.  I'm not sure how far this is

17     going, but if it is going to be a discussion about the evidence and

18     comment, and, I would suggest, speeches, I think the witness ought to

19     take his headphones off.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Bjelosevic, please remove your headphones

21     for the time being.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the part of the indictment is -- as I

23     said before, when Ms. Korner was objecting to one of the documents, the

24     part of the indictment is the CSB Doboj.  And as I -- as I said already,

25     the -- the chief of the CSB Doboj is allegedly member of the joint

Page 19853

 1     criminal -- or alleged joint criminal enterprise as well as our clients.

 2             Now, what I'm -- what we are trying to show is when the CSB

 3     started to operate and whether it operated in accordance with the laws

 4     and the regulations which were valid at the time.  If that is -- if that

 5     would be the case, I think then -- then -- then the argument for the

 6     Defence is, I believe, clear, and we believe it's relevant because of

 7     that.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  And these nominations go to the issue of the

 9     regularity of the -- of the events, conformity of the events to the

10     practice and the law.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, and effective control, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D512, Your Honours.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

15             [Interpretation] The following document I would like to show to

16     the witness is 243D1, tab 155.  Tab 155.

17        Q.   Sir, this is another document issued by the Doboj CSB.  The date

18     is 30th October 1992.

19             On page 2, you will see a signature.  Could you please confirm

20     whether this document was issued by yourself and, also, could you please

21     tell us what the document is about?

22        A.   This is another document issued by the Doboj CSB.  It was

23     addressed to the Ministry of the Interior.  This a proposal for the

24     appointment of commanders in the SJB Maglaj in the territory of the

25     Serbian Municipality of Maglaj.

Page 19854

 1             That SJB had already functioned from before, and the people

 2     nominated had already held those positions.  However, the minister had to

 3     issue his decision on appointment.  Previously, it was I who appointed

 4     them, in keeping with the minister's authorisation from the month of

 5     May 1992.  The document was signed by myself.

 6        Q.   Did you seek confirmation by this document?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.  At the end of the document, you can see an

 8     explanation where it says that they are responsible, that they had proven

 9     responsible in their previous work.

10        Q.   What is the date of the document?  When was it sent?

11        A.   The 30th of October, 1992.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The following document is 244D1, tab 156.

13        A.   I'm familiar with this document.  This is another proposal for

14     appointment of chief of the Modrica SJB.  Mr. Popovic was first appointed

15     by the Crisis Staff of the municipality in Modrica, and when the

16     Security Services Centre started operating in Doboj, I accepted this

17     person as a chief who was very responsible and professional in the

18     performance of his duties.

19             Mr. Popovic was the secretary of the SUP even before the war, and

20     that was one of the very rare occasions where a person was very loyal to

21     his job, very professional, and that such a person had been appointed by

22     the Crisis Staff to such a position.  Obviously I didn't change my mind

23     later, and I proposed that his appointment be confirmed by the minister.

24             I signed the document, and the document was, indeed, sent on the

25     date indicated herein.

Page 19855

 1        Q.   What date was that?

 2        A.   It was on the 30th of October, 1992.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 4     269D1, tab 190.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I beg your pardon.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Tab 190.

 8             This document was issued by the Doboj CSB.  The date is

 9     29 November 1992.  It was sent to the Ministry of the Interior, to the

10     Administration for Legal Affairs and Personnel.  The signatory is

11     Andrija Bjelosevic, the chief of the centre.

12             Can you confirm for us whether this is, indeed, your document,

13     and what is it about?

14        A.   Yes.  This document was issued by the Doboj Security Services

15     Centre and the date when it was sent is indicated here.  I signed it.

16             There's a difference in date here.  When I say "in date," I mean

17     in respect of the proposals that had been sent prior to this one.  Let me

18     explain.

19             The Crisis Staff at one point in time, when the Derventa SJB was

20     established, appointed Dragoljub Kukic as the chief of the SJB.  It also

21     appointed Dusko Jovanovic as the commander of the SJB, and those two men

22     did not have any prior experience working with the organs of the

23     interior.  Mr. Kukic had been a member of the Territorial Defence Staff

24     and a National Defence Secretariat.  And I wanted Mr. Slobodan Bilic to

25     be appointed as the chief of the SJB.  My original proposal featured his

Page 19856

 1     name.  His name is not here, but it's neither here nor there.  However,

 2     in the last paragraph of this document, there is a reference to his name

 3     because I say you must render invalid the decision of the appointment of

 4     Slobodan Bilic as chief of the Derventa SJB because, in the meantime,

 5     Mr. Bilic had turned down the position.  And while this was going on,

 6     negotiations had to take place, and then a proposal was for the

 7     candidates as you can see them in this document.

 8             This explains why this proposal was sent somewhat later than the

 9     previous ones.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have now 242D1, tab 153.

11        Q.   This is also the Doboj CSB, 27th of October, 1992, signed

12     Chief of Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic.  Can you confirm that this is your

13     document?  And can you tell us what is it about?

14        A.   Yes.  This is a document originating in the Security Services

15     Centre in Doboj, as dated here.  I signed the document.

16             It's a request for clearance.  There was a candidate that I

17     wanted to nominate for the position of the commander of the Doboj traffic

18     safety police station.  Since it was, so to speak, a civilian person, or,

19     more precisely, he was member of the military at the time, and he was

20     supposed to be appointed at a rather serious position in the MUP, we

21     requested checks to be made.  The outcome was positive, and Mr. Maric was

22     appointed the commander of the Doboj traffic safety police station.

23     Today, he is the chief of the CSB Doboj, which means that he remained

24     working for the police.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still have three or

Page 19857

 1     four documents relating to security checks and clearances.  I propose to

 2     tender one of them for illustration purposes only through this witness.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Zecevic.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 288D1, tab 213.

 6        Q.   Sir, this is a document originating from the Security Services

 7     Centre in Doboj.  On the fifth page, we can see the signature,

 8     Chief of Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic.  The date is 20th of December, 1992.

 9     Subject: Verification request.  And it's addressed to the National

10     Security Service.

11             Can you confirm this document and explain what it is about.

12        A.   Yes.  This is a document originating from the Security Services

13     Centre in Doboj.  I signed it.  It's a request for verification, in

14     relation to the members of the Security Service.  Those people were

15     assigned to various stations, and our request was granted.

16             I can't remember the details.  I don't know what the exact

17     outcome of this verification was for each of those persons, but we did

18     receive the information that we requested.

19        Q.   Is this about appointment to some managerial positions or,

20     generally speaking, is this about appointing somebody to work in

21     Security Service in Republika Srpska?

22        A.   This is about positions of authorised persons.  Here you have two

23     commanders, one assistant commander, policemen, inspector, and so on and

24     so forth.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 19858

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I propose to tender this document.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D513, Your Honours.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I would now like you to take a look at

 6     P1270, tab 228.  Thank you.

 7             Sir, this is record of the extended meeting of the collegium of

 8     ministers held in Bijeljina on the 5th of November, 1992.

 9             We have here the list of the persons present.  Can you confirm

10     that you were present there, and can you remember the contents of this

11     meeting?  It's 228.

12        A.   I have a problem.

13        Q.   It's a longer document.

14        A.   I can't find it.

15        Q.   All right.  Let us move to another document, and I'm going to

16     double-check in the afternoon.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 252D1, 164.

18        Q.   Sir, this is -- oh, excuse me.

19             This is a document originating from the Doboj Security Services

20     Centre, dated 9th of November, 1992, signed Chief of Centre,

21     Andrija Bjelosevic.

22             Can you confirm this, and can you explain the document?

23        A.   I remember this document.  A collegium was held on the

24     5th of November.  Among other issues, there were various questions,

25     comments, and discussion about the fact that certain public security

Page 19859

 1     stations were contacting the ministry directly and not through the CSB.

 2     It was concluded that this is detrimental to the system of management and

 3     the principle of subordination.  And all the public security stations in

 4     the territory of the centre were sent a dispatch, telling them to adjust

 5     their work according to the conclusions accepted at the collegium

 6     because, otherwise, their observations and comments will not be take into

 7     consideration if they don't go through the CSB.

 8        Q.   What is the situation with the internal regulations of the MUP?

 9     What is the normal procedure for communications within the ministry?  Is

10     it always necessary to communicate through the Security Services Centre?

11        A.   I would like to remind you that there was such a thing as

12     instruction on briefing and reporting.  There were some situations, and

13     it was not unusual, when a certain station would report through a direct

14     line.  However, at the same time, they had the obligation to send the

15     same dispatch to the Security Services Centre, because if they didn't,

16     they would go against the rules and regulations.

17             Maybe you remember, at the beginning of my testimony I mentioned

18     that at the end of 1991 and at the beginning of 1992, this parallel

19     reporting became a practice within the Ministry of Interior of the

20     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  If you remember, I

21     highlighted this negative practice.  However, it had already been

22     established as a working practice.  And here can you see that similar

23     things were observed, and this issue was discussed at the collegium

24     meeting with the minister present, and the conclusion was that the

25     hierarchy should not be changed and that communications had to follow the

Page 19860

 1     usual channels.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  My associates copied this tab 228 that you were

 3     unable to find.  So, this is a record of the extended meeting of the

 4     collegium held on the 5th of November, 1992, in Bijeljina.

 5             Can you confirm that you were present at this meeting, and can

 6     you tell us what was the topic of discussion?

 7        A.   I was present at this collegium meeting.  A moment ago, I

 8     explained one of the conclusions taken at the collegium.  The agenda of

 9     this meeting was rather long.

10             As you can see, we discussed various proposals for rules, laws,

11     et cetera, because the Ministry of Interior was supposed to comment on

12     the proposals and put forward their suggestions.  When we talk about

13     laws, when we talk about rule-books, they were adopted by the minister

14     himself, but it would always be preceded by a discussion so that various

15     suggestions and proposals could be put forward.

16             Yes, I remember this meeting.

17        Q.   Do you remember whether there was any discussion at this meeting

18     about the regulations on disciplinary measures in the state of imminent

19     threat of war?

20        A.   I think that all documents that were discussed are enumerated

21     here, beginning with the regulations on internal organisation.

22        Q.   All right.  I would like you to comment on page 5, the last

23     paragraph.

24        A.   Page 5?

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I assume that it's page 6 in

Page 19861

 1     e-court in English.  Excuse me, it's page 7 in English.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This concerns the area of the

 3     Trebinje CSB.  It was confirmed for some of those municipalities that

 4     they fell under the authority of that centre.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Tell me, do you remember discussions about some

 7     issues or problems involving the Trebinje centre and the public security

 8     stations listed in here?

 9        A.   Yes.  There were problems.  I believe that there was another

10     meeting at which the then-chief spoke about those issues.  A position was

11     put up for the functions of the CSB to involve some of those stations.

12        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, was the territorial organisation subsequently

13     changed, in terms of those public security stations?

14        A.   In a later period, the situation did change.  Some centres were

15     reformed.  I am not able to give you the precise date, but I know that

16     the Foca Security Services Centre was set up and another one was set up

17     in Prijedor.  I really can't remember when that was.

18        Q.   Just one more question.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] We are on a good page in e-court in

20     English.  However, in the Serbian, I would like to call up page 6,

21     paragraph number 1, which is the last paragraph in the English version on

22     the page that we see on the screen.

23        Q.   Tell me, please, do you remember the issue which is raised here

24     and mentioned in the minutes?

25        A.   I remember that that was pointed out as a problem in the

Page 19862

 1     functioning of the Zvornik SJB.  The problem was that certain information

 2     was not forwarded either to the centre or the MUP.  I don't know if my

 3     memory serves me well, but I believe that the problem involved a

 4     paramilitary unit.  I believe that was something that was discussed at

 5     the meeting.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bjelosevic, in the territory of your own centre,

 7     did you have similar situations or omissions, as it were?  What I mean is

 8     this:  Did the chiefs of SJBs in your territory fail to inform you about

 9     certain security events and situations?

10        A.   Yes, we did have such situations.  We have already talked about

11     that today and yesterday.  We spoke about requests for information about

12     certain vehicles.  I have to point out that, on one occasion, at the

13     Doboj SJB, there was a discussion about what needed to be forwarded to

14     the centre -- or, rather, what the centre requested.  The discussion

15     became very heated.  I was informed about that from some person who --

16     persons who had attended the meeting.  One of the commanding officers

17     said, and I quote, "From here the information leaks into the centre,"

18     which is beyond reason.  This is not about leaking information.  This is

19     about sending information as to what was going on in the territory of

20     each of the stations.

21             We had certain problems with regard to information from the Samac

22     public security station.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Since we have raised that issue,

24     could the witness please be shown 538D1, tab 169.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 19863

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, that document --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I'm getting tired so I

 5     started forgetting.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, the document was issued on

 7     13 November 1992.  It is a decision to remand in custody assigned by

 8     Captain First Class Dragomir Majstorovic [as interpreted], I believe.

 9        A.   Mestorovic?

10        Q.   Keserovic?

11        A.   Yes, Keserovic.

12        Q.   Are you familiar with this case?  What can you tell us about it?

13             MS. KORNER:  Before Mr. Zecevic continues, I think we ought to

14     note that there is an error in the translation of the date.  I think it

15     is pretty clear although -- well, not pretty clear, but clear that it is

16     actually, as Mr. Zecevic says, the 13th of November, but it has been

17     typed as the 31st of January, 1992.  So somebody has reversed the

18     numerals and then put in the wrong month.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner, I'm talking about the

20     document 169, and it's all over 13th of November.  I don't see

21     anywhere --

22             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... the English.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, I'm sorry.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I don't have the

25     translation.  Should I have it?  Should I be aware of the mistake?

Page 19864

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Witness doesn't have the translations.  Maybe we

 2     can --

 3             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... all I'm pointing out for

 4     your purposes, as this is your document, I think, that --

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understood that it's just the intervention by the

 6     witness because he's not getting any translation.  That's the only

 7     reason --

 8             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I see.  I thought he hadn't got the document.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I appreciate your help, Ms. Korner.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I have it.  Thank you.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  So, this document will be sent for revision

12     of translation.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, did you hear my question?  My

16     question was this:  Are you familiar with this case?  What can you tell

17     us about it?  What do you remember about it?

18        A.   I'm familiar with this case.  At that time, pursuant to an order

19     by the commander of Doboj OG, I discharged duties as a battalion

20     commander in the Teslic front line.  But I was informed about this event.

21             Commander Lisica gave me his approval to go and see what the case

22     was about, and to return once the problem was resolved.  Actually, in the

23     territory of Samac, certain conflicts broke out because the military

24     security organs, while performing their activities, established or

25     received information that there had been some illegal activities on the

Page 19865

 1     part of certain officers in the military and that the then-station chief,

 2     Mr. Todorovic, was involved in those illegal activities.

 3             When those men were arrested, and Todorovic was one of them, the

 4     leadership of the municipality ordered the blocking of the corridor, or,

 5     rather, the road that passed through the corridor.  That was the only

 6     passable road at the time.  After I got abreast of the situation over the

 7     telephone, when I arrived in Doboj, it was then-commander of the public

 8     security station, Mr. Savo Cancarevic, who put me in the picture.  I

 9     ordered the police not to get involved in the blockade.  I sent an

10     inspector from the police department, together with a number of men,

11     police officers, to go down there and to re-establish order in that

12     police station and to bring the police station back to its normal

13     functioning.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

16     document.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  MFI'd until the revised translation --

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thanks, yes.  I forgot that.  Thanks.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 1D514, marked for

21     identification, Your Honours.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

23     254D1, tab 171.

24        Q.   Sir, this dispatch bears the date 14 November.  It was sent to

25     the Republika Srpska MUP.  Your name is typed up.  The document also

Page 19866

 1     bears a number.

 2             Could you please confirm whether this dispatch was one of yours

 3     or not, and also what is the subject of this dispatch?

 4        A.   Yes.  This is a dispatch which I sent to inform the minister

 5     himself about what had happened in the territory of Samac at the time.

 6             There's also a quote in the document.  I quoted the same

 7     information we were provided with at the centre.  And I promised that I

 8     would monitor the situation after having dispatched my men down there,

 9     and I promised that I would report to the minister accordingly.  This is

10     the content of the dispatch.

11        Q.   In this dispatch, you also quote the dispatch that you, yourself,

12     had received from Samac, and the signatory of that dispatch was Sekulic,

13     Stoko, the public security station commander.  Is it true that that

14     person was, indeed, the commander of the station?

15        A.   No, he was the deputy of the station commander.  I knew

16     Savo Cancarevic better, and I wanted to get in touch with him personally

17     over the phone, and then he provided me all the details of what had

18     happened.  And as you can see, in the first part of my dispatch, I

19     provide my report or, rather, a description of what I had learned, and in

20     the second part, I forward the contents of the original dispatch that I

21     had received from Samac, bearing the signature of the deputy commander,

22     Stoko Sekulic.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

24     would like to tender the document into evidence.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 19867

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D515, Your Honours.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 3     255D1, tab 172.

 4        Q.   This is another dispatch sent by the Doboj CSB.  This one was

 5     sent on the following day, on the 15th November.  It was sent to the

 6     Republika Srpska MUP.  In here, you forward a new dispatch with an

 7     explanation provided by the Samac SJB.  You are the signatory, or,

 8     rather, your name is typed up at the bottom of the dispatch.

 9             Can you confirm whether this was, indeed, was your dispatch, and

10     what do you know about the contents thereof?  Could you also comment on

11     the explanation that the deputy commander provided in his dispatch.

12        A.   This is a dispatch from the Doboj CSB.  I signed it, and I

13     forwarded it.  Several details are provided in here with regard to the

14     procedure of the president of the War Presidency, where you see that he

15     addressed the commanding officers in the SJB directly, and he asked them

16     to participate in the obstruction of the road passing through the

17     corridor.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

20     document as well.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D516, Your Honours.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 257D1.  It's tab 174.

24        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, this is a dispatch dated 15th of November, sent

25     to the president of the Presidency of Republika Srpska, as well as to the

Page 19868

 1     RS MUP.  It is signed by Chief of Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic.

 2             Is it your dispatch, and can you explain it?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is a dispatch from the Doboj Security Services Centre

 4     that I sent, both to the president of the republic at the time and the

 5     other addressee, because this incident involved politics as well.  You

 6     can see it if you read the dispatch.

 7             These were very serious matters.  It had to do with the

 8     interference in work of the military and the public security station, and

 9     the goal was to release the persons arrested by the military.  I

10     considered this a serious issue.  The assessment was that there may

11     have -- that much bigger incidents may have occurred, that weapons may

12     have been used, and that is why I wanted the president to be appraised of

13     the situation and to help in resolving this situation.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I

16     propose to tender this document.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D517, Your Honours.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 263D1.  It's tab 183.

20        Q.   Sir, yesterday you spoke about the fact that sometime during that

21     summer - I think it was August - you met Blagoje Simic, in relation to

22     the work of the public security station in Samac.  Is that true?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could you just briefly remind us of the topic and tell us why you

25     went there to discuss it.

Page 19869

 1        A.   After the inspectors from the Doboj public -- Doboj Security

 2     Services Centre inspected the public security station in Samac, they

 3     found a number of irregularities and concluded that the work was not at a

 4     satisfactory level.  That is why I, together with the chief of the public

 5     security sector, and I also think the chief of the state security sector,

 6     went to Samac.  I wanted to talk to the then-president of the

 7     War Presidency, Blagoje Simic.  Why?  It was the Crisis Staff who had

 8     appointed Stevan Todorovic on the position of the chief of the public

 9     security station, and the president of the Crisis Staff was

10     Blagoje Simic.

11             When I told him the reasons for our arrival, he was very curt,

12     very impolite.  He kept saying, Where were you back in April when we had

13     to fight a war?  We appointed him, and he is going to remain the

14     president of the public security station.

15             He also complained to me personally.  He didn't like the fact

16     that the state security inspectors visited the area of Odzak, and he told

17     me that they should take care about what they were doing because they

18     could end up in much worse situation than in Teslic.

19        Q.   Did you suggest at that meeting then Stevan Todorovic should be

20     replaced?

21        A.   Yes, that is exactly what I proposed, and as soon as I mentioned

22     that, all normal communication between us ceased.

23        Q.   Can you now take a look at the document on the screen.  The date

24     is 25th of November.  It's a dispatch sent to the Republika Srpska MUP in

25     Bijeljina, to the minister.  It's signed Chief of Centre,

Page 19870

 1     Andrija Bjelosevic.  The text has been typed with two different

 2     typewriters.  Can you explain that, and can you confirm that this is your

 3     document?

 4        A.   Yes.  This is a document originating from the Doboj Security

 5     Services Centre.  It's a dispatch sent to the minister.  I signed it.

 6     But when the document reached me, I was of the opinion that I had to add

 7     something.  I wanted to explain how Todorovic was appointed, and that was

 8     typewritten on the typewriter of my secretary, and after this was added,

 9     the dispatch was sent to the communications centre to be forwarded to the

10     minister.

11             At that moment, I thought it was possible to replace the chief,

12     Todorovic, among other things, because the president of the republic was

13     informed of his behaviour, and I thought that it could be done in this

14     way.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] I will now show you the following document,

18     264D1, tab number 184.

19             I would like you to confirm that this is the document identical

20     to the previous one.

21        A.   Yes, it's the same text.  The same text that we saw in the

22     previous document.

23        Q.   Did this text reach the minister of the MUP of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

Page 19871

 1     this document.

 2             Excuse me, I would like to tender this document, 264D1, tab 184.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  The last one, I assume?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, the last one because those are identical

 6     documents, the one witness explained why --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, yes.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- there was a difference in --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D518, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Don't forget the time, Mr. Zecevic.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, exactly.  This is, I think, appropriate moment

13     that we adjourn for the day, because we need to discuss the scheduling

14     another five minutes.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, we are about to adjourn for the day,

16     but we have some procedural matters with which to deal.  So, again, you

17     are excused from the court before we rise.  The Usher will see you out.

18     Thank you.  We would resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, having spent 16 hours, we are informed

22     at this point, could you perhaps begin by indicating where you see and

23     how you see the -- your -- your dealings with this witness continuing.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I indicated at the beginning that I

25     would need 20 hours, but I think I would -- I would be able to finish by

Page 19872

 1     second break tomorrow, which means one hour less than estimated.

 2             But, of course, it would depend on the situation.  I mean, that

 3     is about the time that I'm needing for the rest of the documents that I

 4     want to show to the witness.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You realise, Mr. Zecevic, that there are still

 6     120 documents to go.  In 16 hours, you showed 150 documents, more or

 7     less, and there are still -- no, a little bit more.  And there are still

 8     160 to go.  So you are a little bit over halfway.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I know, Your Honours, but I have selected

10     documents.  I wasn't really sure which of the documents from the list I

11     would use, so for that -- for this purpose, and in order to bring the --

12     the most important and the relevant document, I had to cut short on some

13     others which are --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And you already know how many documents you still

15     have to show?

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have them here.  I think it's 30, 32 documents.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  But I would not like to limit myself to that

19     number.

20             JUDGE HALL:  So, in sum, we can safely conclude that your

21     examination-in-chief and Mr. Krgovic's cross-examination of this witness

22     would be finished within the eight sitting hours remaining in this week.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, definitely, Your Honours, yes.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Any comments, Ms. Korner.

25             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... considering the

Page 19873

 1     position.  I understood that Mr. Krgovic's cross-examination was going to

 2     last about hour and a half.  Is that still the estimate?  So if

 3     Mr. Zecevic finishes round about the second break tomorrow, Mr. Krgovic

 4     is likely to trickle into Thursday.  Right.

 5             I have a few questions I want to ask the witness before he goes

 6     back.  I don't want to start my cross-examination proper but there are

 7     some matters that I wish to deal with before he goes.  In particular, in

 8     relation to documents.

 9             So, in any event, there is no conceivable way that I could

10     conclude what is now likely to be a far extended cross-examination in the

11     light of the evidence that has been led from this witness by the break.

12     The question then remains, Your Honours, when is he to return?  I

13     suggested that we still had the three days of next week free, but I

14     didn't hear a response to that.  I don't know whether there was any

15     response.

16             But, again, I'm not certain I could conclude my cross-examination

17     then.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps counsel can speak outside of court, and if

19     they have further thoughts on this matter, you would let us know at some

20     point between tomorrow and Thursday.

21             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Well, Your Honour, it is quite obvious I

22     can't, not in a million years, even scratch the surface of a

23     cross-examination [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             JUDGE HALL:  Oh, we understand that.  I'm talking about in terms

25     of next week.

Page 19874

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Well, Your Honours, the --

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MS. KORNER:  It's really --

 4             JUDGE HALL:  To assist you in your discussions, there are any

 5     number of reasons why sitting next week may not be feasible so --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, in that case, Your Honour, I mean, there's no

 7     point.  If Your Honours are unable to deal -- or the Court is unable to

 8     deal with it next week, well, then that's the end of that.

 9             Your Honours, we've discussed with -- Mr. Zecevic and I have

10     discussed when he should come back.  Mr. Zecevic would wish to still call

11     the two experts for the allotted period, that is from the

12     2nd of May through to approximately, I think, the 20th of May, and

13     Mr. Bjelosevic to return after that.  We have no objection to that.  We

14     know the problems that Mr. Zecevic has with his experts.  It's a question

15     of Your Honours, if you're happy to defer cross-examination until after

16     the experts.

17             Your Honours, I should add, of course, that the document list we

18     gave to the Defence is now so out of date that we're going to have to

19     re-do the whole thing, so, in any event, they will be getting a brand new

20     document list.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             So we take the adjournment to tomorrow morning at 9.00.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

25                           April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.