1 Thursday, 21 April, 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
9 everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
11 Alexis Demirdjian, Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
15 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
16 JUDGE HALL: We are given to understand that there are some
17 matter to be raised before the witness takes the stand again.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, a very quick submission by
19 Stanisic Defence. We find with concern that the disclosure violations
20 are becoming a real problem in this case. Your Honours should understand
21 first and foremost that the OTP investigator seized almost all documents
22 for Bosnia-Herzegovina in period between 1996 and 2004. Some of them
23 were copied and returned to archives, but obviously a significant number
24 has not and is in the OTP vaults or database. We are not allowed access
25 to these documentation or have possibility to search it. This violation
1 that I'm talking about it the third one since the start of the Defence
2 case 8 days ago. In all three cases that we -- of violation we brought
3 up to Your Honours attention, the OTP acknowledged the failure to
4 disclose documents in accordance with Rule 68 and claimed that its due to
5 black holes or search engines failures or alike.
6 The Doboj disclosure seems especially problematic. Yesterday we
7 were assured by the Office of the Prosecutor that their repeated searches
8 didn't produce anything in relation to the document we were discussing in
9 court, only to disclose to us one of the -- one of the -- the most
10 important documents from that file, after two and a half hours, after we
11 finished the examination-in-chief of the current witness. What is even
12 more worrisome, in our opinion, is the fact that the document disclosed
13 yesterday is actually the document signed by the accused Stanisic.
14 According to ERN number we think that the document comes from the seizure
15 of MUP RS archives, but we can only speculate as we don't have the
16 precise information. It is very unlikely, I must say, that OTP given the
17 time that the accused Stanisic was indicted in 2005 did not search the
18 vast documentation in their possession with the key word being name of
19 the accused and especially if it comes from the MUP RS seizure.
20 For that reason, we cannot accept the black hole or search engine
21 failure explanation. The Defence is preparing a motion to illustrate on
22 how many times we requested the disclosure of relevant material sometimes
23 specific and sometimes less specific, but in any case specific enough to
24 assume on information received from the OTP that such document does not
25 exist. Now, after start of the Defence case we see that it in fact does
1 exist. So what does that speak of fairness in this case? To quote
2 Stakic Appeals Chamber judgement of 22nd March 2006, paragraph 188:
3 "The disclosure of material pursuant to Rule 68 is fundamental to
4 the fairness of the proceedings before the Tribunal. The consideration
5 of fairness must be the overriding factor in any determination whether
6 the governing rule has been breached."
7 Now, Your Honours, we come to the relief and remedy. I'm really
8 honestly wondering is there a relief for the Defence at all. Namely, we
9 asked a number of times and keep asking for the material to be disclosed.
10 At the same time, Office of the Prosecutor has a strict obligation under
11 the rules to disclose to us the material and yet in only eight days since
12 the start of the Defence case we have three serious violations of
14 I'm also extremely concerned and I wonder if in this situation
15 the Defence can continue presentation of the Defence case as the
16 documents keep popping up. Thank you very much. That was my submission.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
18 Mr. Krgovic do you have anything to say before I call on
19 Ms. Korner?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We support the
21 motion by Mr. Stanisic and in order to avoid similar situations in the
22 future during our Defence case, we are about to submit a proposal with
23 the specific request to the Prosecutor detailing what we want them to
24 disclose to us. We still have some documents that we haven't received.
25 Our Defence case is going to begin a little later, but we are now working
1 on a special request for the Prosecutor in which we are going to specify
2 the documents we want to see and also the collections of documents to
3 which they belong.
4 JUDGE HALL: If I may, Ms. Korner.
5 Mr. Zecevic, the -- Mr. Krgovic used the word "motion" and then
6 later on he explained what he proposes to do in terms of the specific
7 relief that he would formulate. What I'm not clear on and what may be
8 helpful before Ms. Korner responds is whether you are -- whether you
9 intend to yourself formulate a specific relief or whether we are to
10 divine from the observations that you made some relief in that.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I was trying to put the Chamber
12 on notice that we are filing a motion. At this moment I'm -- I honestly
13 don't know what the relief would be acceptable for us and that is why I
14 brought it up as I did without specifically asking for a specific relief.
15 But we will do that in our motion today.
16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, I must have missed that. Thank you.
17 Yes, Ms. Korner.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, first of all, can I deal with the
19 assertion that was made that OTP investigators seized almost all
20 documents for Bosnia-Herzegovina in the period pre-1996 and 2004. As
21 Your Honours have seen through even this one witness that is simply not
22 the case, and it's a matter I propose to deal with at some stage with the
24 Second, yesterday the matter arose of this disciplinary letter
25 involving a man named Solaja and there was a discussion about what this
1 was all about. And we did a quick check to see if with that document we
2 had the file. We do not have the file. However, we searched on the name
3 of the police officer who was disciplined later yesterday or during the
4 course of indeed while the trial was still going on and what came up, and
5 I think we better have a look at it on the screen, was this document, and
6 you need to go, I think, to the second page. It's actually -- we haven't
7 had it translated yet, though we're hoping to get it translated within
8 the next couple of weeks, but from having had a B/C/S reader look at it,
9 it's the decision of Mico Stanisic in respect of the disciplinary appeal.
10 And a rough translation, a rough estimate of what it says is that it's
11 Mico Stanisic's 21st of December, 1992 decision dismissing Solaja's
12 appeal listing as the offences: Taking a golf car, taking IDs from a
13 Serb family, and trying to transfer three women with the last name
14 Mandic - and the last names are given - and one man with the last name
15 Maric, so that's Mandic and Maric, to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
16 using forged ID cards. So it appears to be people smuggling as well as
17 stealing cards from a Serb family.
18 The query that of course the same thing Mr. Zecevic raised I
19 raised why wouldn't this turn up on the search that we clearly did on the
20 name Mico Stanisic, and the reason I am told is as follows: When these
21 documents are seized and scanned it's done by OCR, I think that's optical
22 character recognition or that's how you find them. If, as is in this
23 document, you've got the signature like that written over the typed
24 signature it will not come up, whatever search terms you put in, and the
25 only way of pulling such a document out is apparently by doing ...
1 Sorry. I've now been given last moment information, Your Honours.
2 Anyhow, that -- that's, but having said that, I've now been told --
3 right. In fact, somewhat to my surprise having launched into this
4 explanation I'm told that it was disclosed to Defence on the 1st of
5 April, 2010 in batch -- we don't know what the batch number is. It's on
6 a CD given to the Defence on the 1st of April, 2010. And it's also on
8 It was in fact -- right. Okay. Apparently on a Stanisic
9 specific EDS, but I'm not saying that -- as I've said before, I agree
10 that where we have documents that should be disclosed under any rule,
11 we'll disclose them and we don't rely on EDS but it is there, but in fact
12 somewhat to my surprise that was disclosed. But in any event Your
13 Honour, that is one of the problems.
14 Now, we didn't realise it was disclosed because it came up, we
15 got at it by doing a search on, as I say, on the perpetrator rather than
16 on Stanisic. And the reason it was disclosed then is in fact this
17 document comes from the Banja Luka MUP photocopied, no originals taken,
18 in April of 2009. Yeah. So it is a recent -- we've been doing a number
19 of recent revisiting of various archives, I say recent, I mean a couple
20 of years ago, and that was one of them. So it's a very recently obtained
21 document, the original remains with the Banja Luka MUP archives, and as I
22 say, after only having been told we haven't disclosed it yesterday so
23 that's why we've disclosed it, we have in fact disclosed it. However, it
24 is still -- I'm afraid it is still a problem when you are searching on
25 these OCRs, and I'm afraid it is something that's going to keep on
1 recurring because particularly if documents are badly scanned then a
2 search engine will miss it.
3 The earlier ones referred to by Mr. Zecevic, I accept -- I
4 explained why we hadn't disclosed the earlier Bjelosevic documents
5 because they turned up in a different section which we should have
6 checked, that was our fault, but equally as is absolutely plain,
7 Mr. Zecevic obviously had these documents himself, most of them were
8 referred to in the interview by Mr. Bjelosevic and we weren't asked for
9 them but I dealt with that, so I'm just dealing with this document at the
11 Your Honour, additionally we've had this morning a further
12 request, allegedly under Rule 66(B) from the Defence which we will deal
13 with separately. I can say straightaway it is unlikely that we will
14 comply with all the requests because effectively it's the matter I raised
15 yesterday -- not yesterday, whenever we had the legal argument last week;
16 namely, that the Defence effectively are now asking for sight of all
17 documents that we propose to use in cross-examination and we will be
18 resisting that.
19 So Your Honours, I hope that's the explanation I can give. As it
20 turns out I don't blame Mr. Zecevic because we said we were disclosing it
21 because we didn't do a proper check, but in fact we are not in any
22 disclosure violation over this document.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So in sum where we are is that in terms
24 of the principles there is and indeed there could be no division between
25 counsel on opposite sides as to what the principles involved are. The
1 practical operations would, as Ms. Korner has indicated, have to be
2 determined on a case by-case basis and no doubt there will be continue to
3 be complaints and the Chamber will have to rule on the particular motions
4 and/or complaints as they arise, and depending on what the particular
5 circumstances are, the Chamber would, of course, determine and apply the
6 relevant sanctions.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just say something because it's
8 becoming a habit and not just in this Trial Chamber but in others for
9 sanctions to be demanded against the Prosecution for what are said to be
10 violations of the rules. I [indiscernible] recognised, A, the difficulty
11 that Your Honours have pointed out, and also that we don't sit on
12 documents however much we know it's going to cause problems for us. If
13 we find documents, we disclose them. And that's the reality and I hope
14 that will be accepted.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, if there is nothing else.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just -- totally different subject
17 but it goes back to proof of death matters that we discussed, I think, at
18 the first day. Your Honours, we just received a further two to three
19 hundred death certificates for people listed on our indictment and
20 exhumation documents. They of course will have to be logged and which
21 will take a couple of weeks and then reviewed. Then we've got to get
22 them disclosed and translations produced, so we decided rather than
23 filing separate motions we'll wait until we've got them all together and
24 everything has been disclosed to the Defence, so that's going to take a
25 few more weeks now I am afraid.
1 JUDGE HALL: This proof of death business strikes me, no pun
2 intended, as being a Banquo's ghost.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes, exactly, continually reappearing, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
5 Would the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, good morning to you. Again there
9 were certain procedural matters which have delayed the continuation of
10 your cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic. We'll be now in a position to
11 continue, and I would remind you you are still on your oath.
12 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
13 WITNESS: ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic. Yesterday we were discussing the
17 meeting on the 11th of July in Belgrade and you answered my questions
18 about it. During your interview, you mentioned two other meetings with
19 Mr. Zupljanin during the relevant period. The first one was on the 1st
20 of July in Teslic. You were wounded on that occasion, do you remember
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You remember the action by Mr. Radulovic, you came there to see
24 what was going on and then, as you explained, you were attacked by
25 mistake and your ribs were wounded?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then you invited Mr. Zupljanin to come with
3 Colonel Stevilovic to explain what was going on and Mr. Zupljanin arrived
4 at Teslic on your invitation?
5 A. Yes, I insisted that Mr. Zupljanin and Colonel Stevilovic arrive
6 because it was a shock for me, I didn't know what was going on, and I
7 wanted the relevant people to be there so that we could all see what was
8 going on.
9 Q. And on that occasion, Mr. Radulovic said and Stojan Zupljanin
10 confirmed that that particular action was planned in Banja Luka and that
11 you were not informed about the plan for this action pursuant to an order
12 by Mr. Zupljanin?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. During that meeting it was established that some of the people
15 who were there had false ID purporting that they belonged to the Security
16 Services Centre in Doboj?
17 A. Yes, it was about the supplemental IDs, that's how we used to
18 call them. And then we found that those IDs were false. That's also the
19 first time that I saw those IDs and some other documents such as the
20 order by Colonel Simic by which a group of military policemen was sent to
21 Teslic and other things as well.
22 Q. One of the charges against the group Mice was the fact that they
23 falsely represented themselves to be authorised officials, so besides
24 various crimes against Muslims and Croats, they were also charged with
25 false representation?
1 A. Yes, I think that that's true. I think I was informed at a
2 meeting about the contents of their indictment.
3 Q. The following meeting that you mentioned was in Banja Luka on the
4 9th of September. Mr. Zupljanin, investigative judge, and the prosecutor
5 from Teslic were present at the meeting?
6 A. Yes. I insisted on this meeting. As time went on, I found some
7 new facts and that is why I requested this meeting. The meeting was held
8 on the 9th of September and was attended by those people that you
10 Q. You wanted a thorough investigation because you wanted to find
11 out who sent those people and how it came that you find yourself -- found
12 yourself in this embarrassing situation, you simply wanted to clear your
13 name, you wanted to prove to everybody that you had nothing to do with
14 this group and their arrival at Teslic?
15 A. Yes, that's how it was. In the meantime I had found out that in
16 early morning hours of the 1st of July, two young men were killed in that
17 action. And I also wanted that to be mentioned at the meeting. I
18 proposed that the investigation should be expanded and that it should
19 include the issue of responsibility for the death of those two young men.
20 Q. You mentioned two people who were killed. One from the Mice
21 group and another one --
22 A. Yes, as far as I remember there was one from the Doboj group, his
23 name was Gostic, and the one from Teslic I think was called
24 Sjecanin [phoen] or something like that. And I thought that this should
25 have been investigated.
1 Q. Just to clarify, it was two Serbs who were killed, one belonged
2 to the group that was attacking the Mice and the other one from the Doboj
4 A. Yes, those two young men lost their lives in that conflict.
5 Q. I think that we heard that one of them was killed from close by
6 and that he was trying to protect himself and there was a gun-shot wound
7 on his hand?
8 A. Yes, that was another thing that persuaded me that I should do
9 something about it. During the on-site investigation, I think that there
10 was also an autopsy, but I think that when they were simply looking at
11 the dead body, they saw that the bullet went through the hand, that the
12 shot came from close by which means that the victim was trying to protect
13 his body from the killer. That's what I meant.
14 Q. At that time in July the relations between you and Mr. Zupljanin
15 were not very good precisely because of this event. We could say that
16 they were not as good as they had been before?
17 A. Exactly. There were problems between the two of us. Especially
18 when Mr. Zupljanin arrived with Colonel Stevilovic, I asked whether
19 Radulovic carried out this action with his approval and why I was not
20 informed about it. I don't know that even today, and all right, I don't
21 really have to know that; however, as a man, as a chief of a centre, I
22 was offended that it all went the way it went and I received no
23 information about it, and it turned out I was quite naive. I expected to
24 be informed about what happened, I arrived there, and in the end I almost
25 lost my life, so, yes, there were problems between the two of us. I had
1 significant reservations towards Mr. Zupljanin in that period.
2 Q. Did you think about the possibility that you were not informed
3 because of the secrecy, because there was the danger of leaking of
4 information? Mr. Savic, the man in Doboj, was concerned that maybe there
5 could be a leak of information and that could be the reason why you were
6 not informed about it?
7 A. As time went by I changed my position about all this, but at that
8 particular moment I was offended and frustrated, and later on when things
9 fell into place, if I could say so, yes, I think that people had every
10 right to suspect me as well, but I think that later on everything was
11 clarified and that all suspicions were dispelled.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. These are all my
13 questions. I have no further questions.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, as I said yesterday or the day before,
15 if I may, I'd like to ask some questions now. I don't think they will
16 take beyond the adjournment at 10.25 and then adjourn the rest of
17 cross-examination until the witness returns.
18 JUDGE HALL: So you will open your cross-examination now and
19 continue when the witness returns.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, you'll see the reason why I'm
21 asking these questions now, they are basically to do with documents.
22 JUDGE HALL: Very well. Please proceed.
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:
25 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, when the investigators met you in 2004 you were
1 head of the analytical department in Doboj CSB; that's right, isn't it?
2 A. In the public security centre in Doboj, yes.
3 Q. Are you still in that position?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In 2004 you had only been approached potentially as a witness for
6 the Krajisnik case; is that right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, I'm sorry, you were asked at the beginning of the 2004
9 interview when you had your lawyer present, Mr. Simic -- forgive me.
10 Well, I should put it correctly. What you were asked by the
11 investigator in 2004, Mr. Sebire was:
12 "In the past have you been contacted by any representative of a
13 Defence team working at the Tribunal for any case before the Tribunal?"
14 This is page 12 of the first interview. And you said:
15 "No -- yes, actually there was a memo that came to the" typed up
16 as the PSC, but I assume that means the CSB, "referring to the
17 possibility that someone could be involved in the Defence of
18 Mr. Krajisnik."
19 Do you remember saying that?
20 A. I don't remember that that was the contents of the conversation
21 and that a document was shown to me, but I do remember that
22 Goran Neskovic, I think, mentioned the Defence of Mr. Krajisnik.
23 Q. In any event, I don't think it matters much, but that's -- you
24 weren't shown a document you were asked and that was the reply you gave,
25 and just to complete that part, you said you weren't in a position to
1 assist in the Defence of Mr. Krajisnik. Do you recall saying that?
2 A. I don't remember precisely how it went, but it is quite possible
3 that something like that was discussed.
4 Q. All right. When you were seen in 2009 you had already been asked
5 by the Defence of Mr. Stanisic to be a witness; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. Before I was invited to the interview in 2009, I had
7 already been contacted by the Stanisic Defence.
8 Q. Yes. That's all right, I'm going to ask you some further
9 questions about that, but that's what I want to know. Can you tell the
10 Court, please, when were you first contacted?
11 A. I can't remember the first time but I remember that I gave some
12 sort of preliminary statement, maybe one year earlier, one year before I
13 spoke to you.
14 Q. And did you give that preliminary statement to
15 Mr. Slobodan Cvijetic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you asked to sign that statement?
18 A. I don't remember that really.
19 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement with you?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Were you shown a copy of that statement at any stage?
22 A. I think, yes.
23 Q. All right. So that's -- you saw Mr. Cvijetic, you made a
24 preliminary statement to him. Who else did you see from the Defence team
25 of Mr. Stanisic?
1 A. When? In what period?
2 Q. Between the first time you saw them which was you think in about
3 2008, because you say it was about a year before you saw us, between then
4 and now, how often have you met with members of the Stanisic Defence
6 A. I don't know. I really don't remember. I used to meet
7 Mr. Zecevic. Now, how many times he contacted me, I really don't
8 remember that. I didn't think about that.
9 Q. Did you meet him in Doboj?
10 A. No, not in Doboj.
11 Q. Where did you meet him?
12 A. In Belgrade and Banja Luka, and here.
13 Q. As you were employed presumably you made a note in your
14 appointments diary of your meetings with Mr. Zecevic?
15 A. No, I made no note.
16 Q. I'm not asking you about notes. I'm asking you whether you
17 recorded either in your personal diary or your appointments diary which
18 you presumably keep as part of your employment of the number of meetings
19 that you had with Mr. Zecevic?
20 A. No, no, I did not.
21 Q. So you personally have no record of the number of meetings or
22 when they took place?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When you met with Mr. -- was it always Mr. Zecevic or was it
25 Mr. Cvijetic or somebody else from the team that you met?
1 A. The first time, as I said, it was Mr. Cvijetic. The second time,
2 Mr. Zecevic. And we also met in Banja Luka and both Mr. Zecevic and
3 Mr. Cvijetic were there, and then also here before the beginning of the
4 trial I met with both of them.
5 Q. Yes, I understand that, that you came here before you started to
6 testify. I'm concerned only with the earlier meetings. At those
7 meetings was Mr. Zecevic or Mr. Cvijetic or anybody else taking notes of
8 what was being said?
9 A. We spoke about certain documents, and I think that they were
10 making some notes during the conversation.
11 Q. Were you asked to sign any kind of statement or notes that had
12 been made of what you had said?
13 A. I think that it was only once that I gave the preliminary
14 statement that I mentioned. I think that I signed that statement. As
15 for the notes, I don't remember. I think we looked at some documents but
16 I'm not sure that I signed any of them.
17 Q. All right. Let me turn next to your meeting with Mr. Krgovic.
18 When was the first time that you met Mr. Krgovic, or anybody from the
19 Zupljanin Defence team?
20 A. In Banja Luka I think in the spring, but we only met there, we
21 were introduced, we didn't have any conversation about the facts from the
22 Defence of Mr. Zupljanin.
23 Q. Who introduced you to Mr. Krgovic?
24 A. Mr. Zecevic.
25 Q. And you had no conversation about any of the Zupljanin side of
1 the case?
2 A. On that occasion, no, not during that meeting. We were only
3 introduced. They told me that they represent Mr. Zupljanin and then they
4 spent a short time there and went away. We did not mention the facts
5 related to the Defence of Mr. Zupljanin on that occasion.
6 Q. When did you mention the facts concerned with Mr. Zupljanin?
7 When did you discuss the matters concerning Mr. Zupljanin with
8 Mr. Krgovic or anybody else from the Defence team?
9 A. We had a brief conversation here, here in The Hague, before I
10 began testifying.
11 Q. And did he explain to you then what he was going to ask you?
12 A. Well, briefly speaking he gave some contours of the general
13 direction of the interview.
14 Q. You see, until this morning, Mr. Bjelosevic, and in nearly two
15 weeks of giving evidence, this morning is the first time that you
16 mentioned the word "Mice" as a result of questions put to you by
17 Mr. Krgovic. Was that a deliberate arrangement?
18 A. I think that I did not mention that word this morning.
19 Q. Well, indeed you are quite right it was actually brought up by
20 Mr. Krgovic. But you have not mentioned the incident in the whole of
21 your two weeks of testimony that involved the Mice in which you were
22 involved as well. Now, I want to know if there is a reason for that,
24 A. Nobody asked me about it.
25 Q. Well, on two occasions, Mr. Bjelosevic, when you were being asked
1 questions by Mr. Zecevic, you explained that at the beginning of July you
2 had been in hospital, you did not mention how it was that you came to be
3 in hospital. Now, was that something that was arranged between you and
4 Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Zecevic?
5 A. No, no, no.
6 Q. Was there any discussion between you and Mr. Zecevic about what,
7 if anything, would be asked by him in relation to the Mice?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So it's pure coincidence, Mr. Bjelosevic, that it's for the first
10 time this morning that the Judges would have realised from your testimony
11 that you had been involved in the incident which led to the arrest of the
12 Mice? Is that what you are saying?
13 A. Well, I don't know. What do you mean when you say that I was
14 involved in it? I stuck to the suggestion that I received at the
15 beginning, and that is that my answers should relate to the questions,
16 that my answers should be brief and clear. Now this thing that you just
17 mentioned that I was involved in it, I think that I spoke about that. I
18 think that we spoke about it, you and I, in 2009, and I think that that's
19 when I explained what happened, how it was that I -- how it came to be
20 that I was there when I can of course talk about it again.
21 Q. In fact, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm going to come back to substantive
22 matters on that when you return. All I'm concerned about and all I'm
23 asking you about at the moment is whether there was any arrangement
24 between you, Mr. Zecevic, and Mr. Krgovic that the first questions that
25 would be asked about the Mice would come when Mr. Krgovic cross-examined
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I really think that this question was asked and
3 it's been answered for the third time. I don't have a problem with the
4 witness answering the question, but I think certain measures have to be
6 MS. KORNER: Well, let me just ask one final question on this.
7 Q. When Mr. Krgovic spoke to you before you started testifying, did
8 you discuss with him that he would ask you questions about the Mice?
9 A. No, not in this way.
10 Q. What does that mean? What does "not in this way" mean?
11 A. That he would pose those questions and that I would answer those
12 questions and so on and so forth. That's not how our conversation went.
13 Q. Did he say to you that he would be the one to ask you questions
14 about the Mice?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you didn't realise this morning that he was going to put
17 questions to you about the Mice, is that what you are telling the Court?
18 A. Believe it or not, I had no idea about what questions Mr. Krgovic
19 was going to ask because when we met here in The Hague, he told me that
20 he would have several questions for me, that there would not be many
22 Q. And that's it?
23 A. That's it.
24 Q. So all these questions that he asked you this morning and indeed
25 yesterday, you had no idea that he was going to ask you those questions;
1 is that what you are saying?
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is nonsense. All
3 my questions and all his answers are also in his interview. He gave
4 identical answers to the questions that he was asked in his interview.
5 Now, what is the problem, the way I'm asking, what I'm asking? All the
6 questions and all the answers are contained in the interview and
7 Ms. Korner knows this very well. He was asked twice, he answered twice.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours know that I'm not asking about that.
9 I'm asking about whether Mr. Bjelosevic was aware of which questions were
10 going to be asked.
11 Q. And so your final answer, is Mr. Bjelosevic, you did not know
12 what questions Mr. Krgovic was going to ask you or what topics he was
13 going to cover?
14 A. I really did not know what questions would be put. Tentatively,
15 he gave me certain guide-lines as to the fact that what would be
16 discussed is what had been discussed previously, but he did not say we
17 are going to have such and such questions put to you, so that was not the
18 preparation as it was. The structuring of the question did not happen
19 during our conversation.
20 Q. All right. So we moved from he didn't discuss what he was going
21 to ask me -- sorry, I'm just going to turn up the exact words. "I had no
22 idea about what questions Mr. Krgovic was going to ask" was -- your
23 answer now is that he gave certain guide-lines but didn't say that he was
24 going to put such and such a question; is that right?
25 A. I did not say which subjects would be discussed. I said that he
1 would -- that we would go through -- that he went with me through certain
2 things in terms of what would be discussed. That's what I said.
3 Q. I want to move to a slightly different topic. In the meetings
4 that you had with the Stanisic Defence team, did they ask you to produce
5 documents or did you volunteer to give them documents?
6 A. I gave a number of documents voluntarily. I can put it that way,
7 because I understood through the conversation that these documents could
8 be useful in proving the truth.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
10 microphones please be switched off, we can barely hear the witness.
11 Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand what you
13 meant when you said "voluntarily."
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Did they ask you for any documents that you were able to get hold
16 of that related to specific topics, or did you volunteer and say I have
17 documents that may help you?
18 A. As in the conversation in 2004, in the interview, some of the
19 documents that I handed over to the investigators, that is how I handed
20 over certain documents to the Defence of Mr. Stanisic, the documents that
21 I had at my disposal.
22 Q. Did you keep -- I'll come back to records at your disposal,
23 documents at your disposal. Did you keep a record of the documents that
24 you handed over to the Stanisic Defence team?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What you are saying, you just gave them documents without keeping
2 any record whatsoever of the documents that you gave them?
3 A. I didn't record anything.
4 Q. How many documents did you give them in all?
5 A. I don't know. I really cannot say now. I'm bound to say the
6 truth and I cannot say things just off the cuff. I really don't know.
7 Q. You have, as the Trial Chamber has seen, I would suggest, an
8 almost perfect recall of events that happened 17 years ago. Are you
9 saying that you cannot recall how many, let's just take it, was it 100,
10 200, 300?
11 A. When speaking of how it is that I remember certain things, not
12 all impressions are equally important to a person and not everything
13 leaves the same kind of deep imprint in human memory. Some things remain
14 carved in memory and there are others that you simply consider to be
15 unimportant or less important and you don't remember them.
16 Q. Let me take the figures again. Are you saying it was something
17 in the region of 100 or less than 100?
18 A. Certainly less but how many I really don't know.
19 Q. Where did you get the documents from that you provided to the
21 A. Well, in different ways.
22 Q. Yes. Explain the different ways.
23 A. Well, there are some documents that I have had since 1992. There
24 are some documents that I received later.
25 Q. Let's start with the documents you've had since 1992. Do you
1 mean you personally?
2 A. For example, the document I showed you here, that order that
3 stood on the bulletin board, yes, that is the document from 1992. I had
4 it since then, yes.
5 Q. Yes. You explained that one. What other documents did you
6 provide to the Defence which you personally had had since 1992?
7 A. I think that there are some orders of the Crisis Staff that I was
8 to use for explaining the work of the MUP, et cetera.
9 Q. How many Crisis Staff documents did you have at home?
10 A. Maybe, well, what had to do with me and where I was supposed to
11 attend meetings, and I think it was two or three documents, something
12 like that.
13 Q. And these are official documents that you were sent in your
14 official capacity as chief of the CSB Doboj in 1992?
15 A. These documents were addressed to me using my name and surname.
16 I explained how specific my work was at the time. I was not in the
17 office all the time at the centre. For the most part I was at the
18 command post and at the front line.
19 Q. Yes. But that's not an answer to my question, and you know it
20 isn't, Mr. Bjelosevic. Are these official documents that you were sent
21 in your official capacity?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Again, the very same question he, the witness gave
23 the answer. Yes, he did. On page 24/14:
24 "These documents were addressed to me using my name and surname."
25 JUDGE HALL: That's an answer, but there's an element to the
1 question which Ms. Korner is exploring which isn't clear from what the
2 witness has said.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: In Serbian it sounded like an answer very clear to
4 the question.
5 MS. KORNER: I'll try and make it a bit clearer.
6 Q. I'm sure the documents were addressed to you using your name and
7 surname. Would you have been sent the documents about Crisis Staff
8 meetings or decisions if you had not been chief of the CSB in Doboj?
9 A. Well, I don't know who they invited and in which capacity, but
10 they invited me to two or three meetings and on every one of these
11 documents what was written in pen was my name and surname and further
12 down what I was supposed to do at that meeting.
13 Q. Were they not, Mr. Bjelosevic, official documents which should
14 have been kept in the records of the Doboj CSB?
15 A. But the document did not state CSB Doboj. You can have a look at
16 these documents. It said my name and surname.
17 Q. Well, that's the next question in fact that I'm going to come on
18 to, Mr. Bjelosevic. Are you prepared either to hand over to a
19 representative of the OTP or to bring to court when you return, copies of
20 all documents that you personally have at home that relate to the events
21 of 1992 when you were the chief of the CSB Doboj?
22 A. I think that we actually went through all of those documents in
23 2004, 2009, and now here.
24 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, what you think and what is the reality is maybe
25 two different things. But I'm simply asking you at the moment whether
1 you are prepared to hand over copies of all the documents which you have
2 at home which relate to the events of 1992 whilst you were the chief of
3 the CSB Doboj?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you prepared to hands them over to an investigator from the
7 A. If you --
8 MS. KORNER: Can I rephrase that, Your Honours.
9 Q. To the Sarajevo field office.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness started to answer, please leave the
11 opportunity to the witness to answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say that if you wish when
13 I return here on the 16th I will photocopy everything and bring
14 everything I have. As a matter of fact, in 2004, and you will probably
15 find that there, I photocopied something from my notebooks. I would like
16 to say something here and I would like it to be fully clear: I have
17 nothing to hide and I do not wish to hide anything. I came here to tell
18 the truth and that is why I appear as a witness here. Let that be
19 perfectly clear.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic. So -- and in fact, I was going
22 to -- I changed because I was going to say: Are you prepared to have
23 someone from the Sarajevo field office collect those documents in advance
24 because otherwise it will mean a delay when you get here while we all
25 look at the documents?
1 A. If I understood you correctly, you're asking me whether I am
2 prepared to photocopy all of this and then hand it over to someone before
3 I actually come here? Somebody would contact me; right?
4 Q. Yes, someone will contact you from the Sarajevo field office, you
5 don't have to do the photocopying, you can either give them to them, they
6 will be returned to you, because you'll get a receipt for the documents,
7 or you can photocopy them yourself, whichever you prefer?
8 A. I accept. Fine.
9 Q. Now, you said some the documents you had at home. Where else of
10 the 92 documents or so which are on the list that the Defence have
11 provided that you provided, where did the other documents come from?
12 A. I received a number of documents as photocopies while speaking to
13 the Defence. They showed me a number of documents and they say that they
14 received them from the OTP.
15 Q. Yes. There are, according to the list we've been given, numbers
16 of documents that were shown to you that did not come from us but came
17 from you and you alone. Now, where did you get the documents that
18 weren't at home?
19 A. A number of documents are from the book of General Lisica, or
20 rather the books of General Lisica.
21 Q. Leave aside the books of General Lisica. Did you take copies of
22 any documents from the CSB Doboj where you were working as head of the
23 archives, or analyst?
24 A. As for a number of documents, I would like to remind you that in
25 the media 2003 I read that in Zenica there were some proceedings, roughly
1 that's what it said in the newspapers, that there were proceedings
2 instituted against me and they said that they didn't have my address and
3 then I reported to the court and OTP in Zenica. I called them and I
4 asked them what this was all about. They said to me that there was a
5 request for carrying out an investigation and that it would be a good
6 idea if I were to show up. I indeed went there. They read that request
7 to me, so I saw what it was all about. When I returned, I asked for some
8 documents that have to do with those allegations in the request for an
10 Q. You mean when you returned to the CSB Doboj?
11 A. When I returned from Zenica, yes, I returned to the Doboj centre,
12 and they said to me that there were a number of documents there that some
13 of the documents were from there, they had them photocopied and they
14 provided me with these copies.
15 Q. Right. So some of the documents that you have provided to the
16 Defence come from the CSB Doboj via you for the purposes of any potential
17 Defence you have to mount; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I see the time, I am afraid I'm going
20 to go a little bit over the break because I still have a few question to
21 ask about documents, if that's all right.
22 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, when you say go over the break, are you
23 suggesting that we continue beyond --
24 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honours. I see it's 10.25 which is the
25 time for the break.
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I appreciate that.
2 MS. KORNER: No, I have got about another 15, 20 minutes worth of
4 JUDGE HALL: Is there any reason why we can't do that now?
5 MS. KORNER: Oh, well, no. If you want -- certainly if you want
6 to. I thought you wanted to have the break.
7 JUDGE HALL: Let me just check with the Court Officer first.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE HALL: The universal view is that we continue, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: Yes, I am afraid actually having looked, it's going
11 to take about another 30 minutes. Is that all right?
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: So that will be 45.
13 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I mean I've just seen there's one whole area
14 that I omitted --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may be practical, we need to
16 talk about the scheduling as well, so therefore I think --
17 JUDGE HALL: I think for the convenience of the accused who are
18 in the care of the security officers, so we'll take the break and come
19 back in 20 minutes.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, I want to deal with documents at the Doboj CSB,
1 please. You told us that you got some documents from Doboj CSB for the
2 purposes of a potential defence. The archives in the Doboj CSB, where
3 exactly are they located?
4 A. I don't know which room it is where the archive is, but it must
5 be somewhere in the building.
6 Q. I am sorry --
7 A. I assume that it's somewhere in the basement.
8 Q. Yes. You've worked for Doboj CSB now for something like 17 or 18
9 years -- no, sorry, 20 years. Are you telling us you don't know in which
10 room the archives are kept?
11 A. Well, first, esteemed Prosecutor, I don't work that long in the
12 security services centre in Doboj. I worked there until the beginning of
13 1994 when I went to Bijeljina. After that, I spent a period of time in
14 Sarajevo, then I went back to Bijeljina and also to Brcko and Banja Luka.
15 And then in 2000 -- I don't remember exactly which year I returned to the
16 Doboj CSB, and I think that the archive is in the basement, in the same
17 building where the station and the centre are.
18 Q. And this is just a marginal digression, is it right that the SJB
19 Doboj and the CSB Doboj since 1991 or maybe before have always been in
20 the same building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. So the archives you think are in the basement of the
23 CSB. Who is in charge of the archives? Name of the person, please.
24 A. I don't know. Trust me, I don't know who is in charge of the
1 Q. You are the head of analysis and you don't know who is in charge
2 of the archives at CSB Doboj?
3 A. I don't know the person. I don't know the individual, but
4 logically speaking it's something to do with the administrative office
5 and it definitely should be admin and financial department or something
6 like that. It may sound incredible to you, but I really don't know the
7 first and the last name of the person.
8 Q. All right. Who is the head of the administration and financial
9 department at the present time in Doboj CSB?
10 A. Branislav Petricevic, he was mentioned here, he used to be an
11 inspector in the crime prevention department.
12 Q. The documentation that is retained in the archives of the CSB, is
13 that separated into each separate department or administration within the
14 CSB? In other words, is there a separate set of binders of documents for
15 the crime prevention department or for the financial department and so
17 A. This is regulated by the Law on Documents and Archives. I think
18 that's the exact name of the law. I assume that the documents are
19 grouped according to the terms, by that I mean how long they have to be
20 kept. There is a group of document that have to be kept for a shorter
21 period of time, some of them for a longer period of time, and yet another
22 permanently. So that's, I assume, is also the basis for that
23 classification in the archive.
24 Q. Is the answer to that -- without looking at the law, you can't
25 tell -- you can't give me the answer as to how the documents are
2 A. I don't know how they are sorted, but I suppose that that is the
3 criterion. I haven't done that job. I was never involved in that and
4 that's why I don't know. This's why I don't know the criteria. However,
5 it seems logical to me because I know that some documents are supposed to
6 be kept longer and some shorter time, and also, yeah, it would also be
7 quite understandable if they were categorised according to the lines of
9 Q. The documents that have to be kept include any dispatches sent by
10 or received by the Doboj CSB; is that right?
11 A. Yes, but I don't know how long. I think that the dispatches -- I
12 don't want to make a mistake, but I think that the term for keeping
13 dispatches is three years.
14 Q. But from what you tell us you were able to get copies of
15 documents from 1992 in 2003?
16 A. I don't know what exactly you mean.
17 Q. Well, I'll read back what you said to us about the documents you
18 said you got copies of from the CSB:
19 "As for a number of documents," this is at page 27, line 23, "I
20 would like to remind you that in the media in 2003 I read that in Zenica
21 there were some proceedings" sorry, "roughly that's what it said in the
22 newspapers, there were proceedings instituted against me, and they said
23 they didn't have my address and I reported to the court and the OTP in
24 Zenica" and so on and so forth. "When I returned, I asked for some
25 documents that have to do with those allegations in the request for an
2 "Q. You mean when you returned to the CSB Doboj?
3 "A. When I returned from Zenica, yes, I returned to the Doboj
4 centre, and they said to me there were a number of documents, some of the
5 documents were from there, they had them photocopied and provided me with
6 those copies."
7 Is that right?
8 A. I don't think that was the exact interpretation, but in essence,
9 yes, that's about it. But I don't know what your question is. That's
10 what I didn't understand. You said that in 2003 I took documents, I
11 don't know how. It was more of a statement than a question, that's why I
12 didn't quite understand what you were asking me.
13 Q. Well, I'll try again, I'm sorry, Mr. Bjelosevic. I want you to
14 be quite clear. My understanding from that answer was that having been
15 to Zenica in 2003 to find out what the investigation against you was
16 about, when you came back to Doboj, you got copies of documents that were
17 in the Doboj CSB about matters in 1992?
18 A. Yes, a number of documents. Yes.
19 Q. So in 2003 certainly there were documents in the Doboj CSB,
20 dispatches and the like, that relate to 1992; is that right?
21 A. What do you mean suddenly? What do you mean by that?
22 Q. I didn't say suddenly. I don't know where it was interpreted as
23 suddenly, but I didn't say "suddenly." Mr. Bjelosevic, I don't want to
24 go around the houses like this, but in 2003 were you able to have copied
25 for your purposes documents that related to 1992?
1 A. Let me be -- or let me attempt to be very clear. In that request
2 for investigation I found a number of statements and characterisations
3 which were incorrect. I said that when it was read out to me and I stand
4 by it today. Among other things, it said that our service did not take
5 any steps against perpetrators of certain violent acts, murders,
6 et cetera. And then because I remembered it and I still remember it
7 today, that there were certain steps taken, I requested that certain data
8 be found in the KU register. They found them and I was right. There
9 were on-site investigations, there were investigations, there were
10 criminal reports. We also had a chance to see a number of documents of
11 that nature during the past few days.
12 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, the simple question was in 2003 did you receive
13 copies of documents that related to the 1992 events?
14 A. Yes. I did get a number of documents, yes.
15 Q. And there is no reason at all that you know of why the
16 documentation in 1992 should not still be present in the archives of the
17 Doboj CSB?
18 A. I didn't understand the question again.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: I was checking the interpretation and it was very
20 confusing and it didn't reflect what you said. That was the precise
21 reason why I was doing it.
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
23 Q. Is there -- I will say this slowly and carefully so that there
24 can be no mistake, I hope, in the interpretation.
25 Is there any reason you know of why the documentation from 1992,
1 part of which you got, should not be in the CSB Doboj? In other words,
2 it should still all be there?
3 A. That's what I think.
4 Q. Thank you. And you are unable to assist as to where exactly in
5 the building that documentation is kept?
6 A. We already spoke about this. Let me repeat it in order to
7 clarify. The documents which, according to the law on documents and
8 archives, have to be kept permanently or, for instance, for 20 years, and
9 if we talk about 1992, then such documents should still exist in the
10 archive. If the terms mandated by the law are shorter and have expired,
11 then there is no obligation to continue keeping such documents.
12 Q. Apart from your own documents at home, apart from documents that
13 were copied for you in the CSB, are any of the documents which you
14 provided to the Defence from any other source?
15 A. I don't know. There are no other sources. As I said, the two
16 that I mentioned and that book where copies of the documents were
17 published, the book by General Lisica.
18 Q. Now, in order to stop what would be a very long, boring, and time
19 consuming exercise, we have been given a list by the Defence for
20 Mr. Stanisic of documents which it is said you provided. I would like
21 you to be given a copy of that list, or a copy given to VWS, because as
22 you know you cannot communicate at all with the Defence or anybody else
23 of that list and to mark, please, for us, which documents you got from
24 the CSB Doboj and which documents were personal documents, and don't
25 worry about Lisica's book because I don't think any of them on there have
1 anything to do with Lisica's book. And I would like you to do that,
2 please, before you return.
3 Next, please --
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry. Ms. Korner, the documents, the
5 documents that you just mentioned has got the 65 ter numbers, not in the
6 world can the witness know what the 65 ter number is, the particular
7 document. Maybe you can print out all these documents and then give it
8 to the witness so he can mark them and explain where he got them.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, he actually has a full binder which he
10 has been using all the way through of all the documents that were used,
11 so I suggest he takes that with him.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: You mean the binder that was used with the --
13 MS. KORNER: Which he has been using to give evidence when he was
14 giving evidence in chief which has got all the documents, that I
15 understand --
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, yes, yes, but that doesn't contain all the
17 documents we listed. Because the binder contains only the documents that
18 I intended to show to the witness.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, slight waste of time, but my
20 understanding was the list that we got we asked for a list of the
21 documents which were in the Defence binders which had been provided by
22 this witness. Do I understand there are -- this includes documents that
23 are not in the Defence binders, because that's -- my understanding was he
24 used only ones in the Defence binders?
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. Well, it is my mistake. They should all be
1 in the binder. That's what Ms. Savic explained to me. So we will
2 provide the binders to the witness, yes.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, it's quite clear there are other
4 documents that aren't in the binders from what we are being told, but in
5 the absence of the Defence handing them over, there's not much I can do
6 about that. And, Your Honours, in fact the simplest -- and I've marked
7 my list.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Bjelosevic --
9 MS. KORNER: Thank you. There's a clean copy of the list which
10 was provided which we'll hand over now.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Bjelosevic, you mentioned your own notebook. As you
12 rightly point out, on the second day of the 2004 interview, you turned up
13 with three photocopied pages of a notebook that you yourself kept during
14 the period of meetings you attended. That's correct, isn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you still have that notebook?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I would like you, please, to hand over the whole notebook to
19 whoever turns up from the Sarajevo field office.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, in parenthesis, can I say I've been
21 asked whether a representative of the Defence could be -- or not been
22 asked it's been put to me that a representative of the Defence should be
23 present. No objection at all. We'll notify the Defence of when or, in
24 fact, Mr. Bjelosevic is going to have to notify the field office. Your
25 Honours, all I'd say is of course that no communication can be held
1 between the members of the Defence and Mr. Bjelosevic.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: We are not seeking one.
3 MS. KORNER: Right. Thank you.
4 Q. In that case I'd ask you to hand over, please, the notebook
5 relating to 1991 and 1992, please. The whole thing.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. The Chamber is just proposing that
7 perhaps the simplest solution would be to have Mr. Bjelosevic hand over
8 the documents and the notebooks and whatever else there is to be handed
9 over to a representative from the VWS so that the VWS can then pass the
10 documents on to the OTP.
11 MS. KORNER: Certainly. Your Honours, if VWS agree to this, then
12 I don't know whether they are prepared to do that, but --
13 JUDGE HALL: But as far as we are informed, the VWS does have
14 personnel in Sarajevo.
15 MS. KORNER: I think that's right, yes.
16 JUDGE HALL: So that would be the easiest and the simplest
17 solution to this little technicality.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes. I will -- in that case, obviously we'll leave
19 the finer points of the arrangement for outside court, but Mr. Bjelosevic
20 needs to communicate with the VWS in Sarajevo. Yes.
21 Q. Did you keep a war diary when you were in the military,
22 Mr. Bjelosevic?
23 A. Just one more question, if you'd permit me, before I answer your
24 question. Is somebody going to contact me from that field office or the
25 interpretation that I received was that I should contact them, so what is
2 JUDGE HALL: The office will contact you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not have a war diary.
4 MS. KORNER:
5 Q. Could you give us, please, the dates in 1992 when you were
6 performing the military duties that you have talked about?
7 A. Dates. Already in April I became engaged with the military in a
8 sense. In that period, the area of Derventa, Brod, Odzak, Samac had
9 already been cut off, war was already going in Samac, and at that time I
10 was already making visits to the command and the garrison in Derventa.
11 Then there was the forward command post of the 1st Corps command, it
12 changed its location on several occasions, but more frequent visits and
13 later on the engagement that was sometime beginning of May.
14 Q. Look, Mr. Bjelosevic, you've got a perfect memory virtually for
15 other dates. I want the exact dates, please, when you say you were
16 performing military duties?
17 A. I just told you in my answer. I told you how it all began.
18 Q. Are you able to give us the precise dates when you were actually
19 performing military duties under the command of the 1st Krajina Corps?
20 A. It was a specific situation. It's one thing when you receive a
21 direct order appointing you to a certain duty. And it's a different
22 thing when you co-operate and partake in command in relation to certain
23 issues. One could say that the engagement in the military begins
24 sometime at the beginning of May when the command post was in the village
25 of Strpce near Prnjavor. From that point on I was present there every
1 day. However, I emphasise, that at the beginning of May, or rather, no,
2 in April, it was in April that parts of the public security station in
3 Derventa, more precisely the personnel that managed to get out, formed
4 the station in the local community of Kalenderovci --
5 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreter heard the name right.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and another one in another
7 village. There was a commander of the milicija station, Ninko Dobrilovic
8 and there was also a commander of the traffic police station,
9 Pero Cvjetkovic. An attempt was made to establish a functioning service,
10 so in that sense I was also engaged there. So in the beginning, you
11 cannot really draw a sharp line between those two things, but I do
12 emphasise that sometime from the beginning of May I was engaged in the
13 command. And then sometime towards the end of May I think that the whole
14 police was resubordinated to the army or, more precisely, they were
15 mostly engaged in the military police. So it was a complex meshwork of
16 obligations, co-ordination -- I don't know if you understand this
17 particular situation. There were parts of the service outside its
18 station, there were areas where situation should have been regulated,
19 there were specific circumstances, and a lot of time was spent working on
21 So my answer would be that it was the beginning of May or the
22 1st of May, I don't remember the exact date, and from that point on I was
23 almost daily there, and then after I was appointed to a command duty, I
24 was mostly in the field with the military.
25 Q. Right. All I asked you was for the dates, but let's leave it
1 there for the time being. What about the later period of 1992?
2 A. The second half of 1992 I think that we've explained that in
3 the --
4 Q. I don't want to stop you, Mr. Bjelosevic, but I don't want an
5 explanation again. I'm simply asking for the dates. You told us it was
6 April, maybe May to the end of June 1992. Were you actually performing
7 military duties towards the end of 1992, because that's what I understood
8 you to say. If I'm wrong, tell me now.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask for the Prosecution
10 microphone to be switched off.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't the end of 1992. It
12 was the end of June of 1992. It wasn't the end of 1992.
13 MS. KORNER:
14 Q. Did you do a second period of service under the military whether
15 resubordinated or any other kind for any other period in 1992?
16 A. Yes, in November I was battalion commander. Now that we are on
17 the subject, allow me to say one more thing. In July and August and
18 September and October, and you could see this from the documents, we sent
19 the milicija to the front line all the time. They were resubordinated to
20 the military and of course I had that in mind. I contacted the commands
21 very often. I went there to follow what was going on. I saw them out in
22 the field, that is something that went on. But basically after this
23 collegium, after the 11th of July, the functions and the elements of the
24 centres are established and they have their chief and the service of the
25 centre functioned in that period of time. It is correct that in the
1 month of November, I was engaged for a combat duty in the Teslic front
3 Q. I'm only interested in you, Mr. Bjelosevic, and not any of your
4 men for the moment. Do you have your military booklet?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. Thank you. Would you be kind enough, please, also to hand that
7 over? And I say this is all going to be copied and all the originals
8 will be given back to you to VWS with all the other documents.
9 A. Why not.
10 Q. Do you have any copies of any orders or dispatches or any
11 material addressed to you during that first period when you say you were
12 with the military from General Talic or any other officers under his
14 A. I tried to find the order on appointment to command duty during
15 the corridor operation. I haven't found it. Over the past few days we
16 saw some of the documents that had arrived from the commands. I think
17 that there are some documents that I did not testify about over the
18 course of the past few days.
19 Q. Sorry, where are they? Do you mean there are documents you've
20 given to the Defence which you haven't been asked about?
21 A. No, I think that I have some more documents, some orders that
22 were not the subject of my testimony here over the past few days. I'll
23 have a look.
24 Q. We are interested, as I said to you, in any documents, military,
25 police, or whatever that emanate from 1992. That is what we would like
1 you to hand over. Do you understand that? So that includes military.
2 A. I'll hand everything over to these persons who come to see me.
3 Trust me, I have no reason to hide anything. As a matter of fact, I'll
4 be pleased to hand them over.
5 Q. Final matter I want to ask you about is this: You were asked
6 when you first began testifying by His Honour Judge Hall whether you had
7 testified previously before this Tribunal or before any of the courts in
8 the countries that comprise the former Yugoslavia, and you said "No, not
9 in these cases." Can I just ask what you meant by that?
10 A. If I understood the question correctly then, it was whether I
11 testified before this international criminal tribunal or some other
12 international court about war crimes. That is what I meant when I said
13 that I had not testified in those cases.
14 Q. Very well. But you told us yesterday that you had in fact
15 testified in the trial against Slobodan Karagic for theft?
16 A. Well, that's not -- well, this is a property related crime and I
17 don't consider that to be a question akin to war crimes.
18 Q. No, no, I accept that. As I said, Mr. Bjelosevic, I accept that
19 you understood the question but I'm trying to get another aspect of this.
20 When exactly was this trial against Karagic?
21 A. I cannot recall.
22 Q. Well, a rough idea, please? In the last five years, ten years
24 A. Since I really cannot recall with any precision, so take this
25 conditionally, please, what I will say now. It might have been 2001 or
1 2002, I'm not sure.
2 Q. And that was at the Doboj court, was it?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. What was the outcome of the trial? What was the verdict?
5 A. I don't know. I was called in as a witness and I did not follow
6 the case. I don't know.
7 Q. You had no interest in the result of a case in which you had
8 testified? Is that what you are saying?
9 A. To tell you the truth, I really wasn't all that interested. I
10 gave a statement before the court and I did not follow how things went
12 Q. And was that -- was the allegation in 2001 relating back to
13 events of 1992?
14 A. Yes. The questions put to me were what does a mobilised vehicle
15 mean and whether the vehicle in question had been mobilised by the
16 service. That is what I testified about.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
18 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
19 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
20 Q. The allegation was theft of a motor vehicle, was it?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, the witness said, I was
22 questioned. He was not mentioning the allegations. He was questioned by
23 the Judge. That's our system, Ms. Korner, it's different from here.
24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. It really doesn't need an intervention,
25 Mr. Zecevic. I understand perfectly the system in the former Yugoslavia,
1 thank you very much. It's not a question of who he was questioned by.
2 Q. What was the allegation about?
3 A. I told you that I was called as a witness and that in these
4 proceedings against Slobodan Karagic certain questions were put to me in
5 relation to what it means when a vehicle is mobilised, and I was asked
6 whether I remembered that that particular vehicle had been mobilised in
7 that way. I answered the questions put to me and I really don't know how
8 it all ended. I really do not know. You can ask the court about that.
9 Q. I'm asking you as a witness to something that happened in 1992.
10 Was this theft of a vehicle belonging to a non-Serb?
11 A. I was not a witness to the events concerned or the theft. I was
12 asked whether I remembered that that particular vehicle had been
13 mobilised for the needs of the service, and also what it means to
14 mobilise a vehicle. I answered those questions to the best of my
16 Q. Do you -- sorry. Do you have the faintest idea, do you know why
17 it took from 1992 to roughly 2001 to prosecute Mr. Kasagic [sic]?
18 A. I don't know. It's not for me to assess that when different
19 court cases were being resolved. I really don't know about that.
20 Q. Are you aware of Mr. Kasagic [sic] having been charged with any
21 other offences arising from the events of 1992?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I am really sorry. I believe Ms. Korner is using
23 two persons. Karagic or Kasagic.
24 MS. KORNER: Karagic, sorry, you are quite right. I made a
25 mistake. Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Karagic. Sorry.
2 A. As far as I know, Slobodan Karagic was criminally charged for
3 what happened in Teslic in 1992.
4 Q. Was he ever prosecuted for that?
5 A. I don't know how far the proceedings went and how they ended. I
6 know that he was part of that criminal report together with some other
8 Q. It's the Mice again; right?
9 A. Yes, yes, that's the group. Yes.
10 Q. All right. And finally, Mr. Bjelosevic, for the time being, are
11 there any other cases in which you have testified relating to the events
12 of 1992 against any other accused?
13 A. As far as I can remember I was not called to testify anywhere in
14 relation to what happened in 1992.
15 Q. Apart from this one case?
16 A. That's right. If I remember correctly.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's all I ask for the present.
18 Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, you would recall the matters to
20 which we alerted you yesterday and you indicated - that is in terms of
21 the continuation of your testimony - and you indicated in, as a partial
22 answer to the question earlier, and I believe the Court Officer has
23 confirmed, and I would wish you to reconfirm this for the record, that
24 the 16th of May would not be inconvenient to you, is that the position?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yesterday I spoke to my
1 family and we looked at some other engagements that had previously been
2 planned and that's why my phone was on when it went off yesterday and I
3 apologise for that once again. So, yes, that particular date would do.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So -- sorry you were going to say
5 something, Ms. Korner?
6 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours, I think when it comes to the
7 Registry, I've been asked to confirm what it is exactly that
8 Mr. Bjelosevic is supposed to be handing over to VWS, so can I just
9 confirm so that it can be printed out, all documents in his possession,
10 military, police, or otherwise that relate to the events of 1992.
11 Second, his own notebook of meetings he attended in 1991 and 1992.
12 Third, his military booklet. I think that's the complete list.
13 JUDGE HALL: So as a reminder, Mr. Bjelosevic, what Ms. Korner
14 just said on the record would be passed on to VWS and they would have
15 that list to you, so in other words, you don't have to -- if remember it
16 all well and good, but you would have as an aid this list that they would
17 provide you.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I would ask that he is reminded of
19 that he cannot communicate --
20 JUDGE HALL: I intend to do that, Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, we are for the reasons that I would
23 have explained earlier, taking an extended break in this matter. Upon
24 the rising of the Court today, we will reconvene on the 2nd of May, but
25 your testimony is suspended -- the continuation of your cross-examination
1 is suspended until the agreed date of the 16th of May, and with the
2 lengthy break, I am obliged to remind you of what I said at the beginning
3 during the adjournment the first day, that having been sworn as a witness
4 in this matter, you cannot have any communication at all with counsel
5 from either the Office of the Prosecution or the counsel representing
6 either of the accused. Moreover, in such conversations as you have with
7 persons other than counsel, please remember that you cannot discuss your
8 testimony before the Tribunal. You are not yet released as a witness,
9 that will come at the end of your examination-in-chief -- of the
10 re-examination and any questions the Judges have. And with that we take
11 the adjournment. I wish that everyone has a safe -- yes, Mr. Zecevic.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, Your Honours, before we take the
13 adjournment, I have two matters to raise.
14 JUDGE HALL: Shall I excuse the witness?
15 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, yes.
16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, you will be escorted from the
17 courtroom and we will continue with our procedural matters.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I just ask you
20 JUDGE HALL: Certainly, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand what it
22 is that I'm supposed to do with this list.
23 JUDGE HALL: That list, as I understand it - and counsel can jump
24 in and correct me if I misstate anything - is an index, as it were, of
25 the binder which you have been or will be handed by VWS. That list is --
1 will be difficult for you to follow, but what they would require you to
2 do is to indicate from the documents which you will have in front of you
3 the ones that you have -- could counsel, assist, please.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. It's not actually a list of
5 [indiscernible] the binder. It's a list of the documents which are
6 contained in the binder which it is said by the Defence was given them by
7 Mr. Bjelosevic. And it was pointed out that just from the list it would
8 be difficult to identify. But the documents are in the bundle and so he
9 has just got to mark off which ones are the ones he gave. And from
10 where. Sorry, from where he gave them -- sorry from where he acquired
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, can I just ask if the witness will be
13 able to identify the documents in the binder from the list that you have
14 given to him?
15 MS. KORNER: Yes. They've got all the documents are numbered and
16 they've got the number on them.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Except for the fact -- I'm sorry to interrupt,
18 except for the fact that the document which we provided to the Office of
19 the Prosecution is in English and, as we know, the witness doesn't speak
20 English. Therefore, what we can do is provide the very same document in
21 Serbian and have a copy given to the VWS so the witness knows what
22 documents he needs to look at.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, Mr. Bjelosevic --
24 MS. KORNER: There's no titles in any of the documents. It just
25 gives numbers. There's nothing in English other than item or receipt
1 of -- given by Bjelosevic. I don't follow. But, Your Honour, it may be
2 the simplest thing is he has got the binder, if he just goes through
3 looking at the documents and simply if he likes himself lists the tab
4 numbers, he has got them all under tab numbers, the ones he handed over
5 from where. Your Honour, the only other alternative is to go through a
6 time exhausting exercise of going through each individual document
7 ourselves with him.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE HALL: So the exercise, Mr. Bjelosevic, is for you to
10 identify from the documents that you have the ones that would have come
11 from the archives and the one that you would have had from your own
12 copies or from somewhere else, so there's two or three sets of markings
13 or indications. Can we further assist? I trust that's clear. Do you
14 have any other questions?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just want to be sure that I
16 understood this right. I take this and I take the list, right, and from
17 this group of documents I am supposed to say which ones on this list are
18 the ones that I handed over to the Defence; right?
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, the purpose, Mr. Bjelosevic, is to indicate
20 on the list where you got each of these documents from. The Prosecution
21 is asking you to identify or to indicate on the list where you got these
22 documents from. And there are two or maybe three possibilities. Either
23 you had them at your home already or you obtained them from the archives
24 at some point or maybe you had them from somewhere else, these are the
25 three alternatives that I can see, and what the Court is asking you to
1 indicate in respect of each of the documents on the list where you
2 obtained that document you from. Is it clear now?
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: And to be totally clear, and I will be corrected
4 if I'm wrong, but the list contains only documents that you gave to the
5 Defence. No? Isn't that right? Okay. Forget about that.
6 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] It's not a complete list
7 of the documents he handed over.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: If I can explain. The list contains the provenance
9 of the documents contained in this binder. So there is a number of
10 documents which we received from the disclosure from the OTP from MUP,
11 and some of the documents have been received from Mr. Bjelosevic. And he
12 needs to pay attention only to the documents he provided to us.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner --
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I still don't quite understand what it
16 was the Defence are purporting to tell us here, but it doesn't really
17 matter. I want him to go through the documents in the binder, tell us
18 which of them he provided, whether or not we also provided copies through
19 our disclosure. If he provided them, where they came from in the way
20 that His Honour Judge Harhoff has explained.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. If you have no other questions,
22 Mr. Bjelosevic, the usher will escort you out, and we would see you again
23 on the 16th of May.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. So I'm supposed to take
25 this with me?
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I had two matters, I just lost one of them.
5 Perhaps I will remember.
6 Your Honours, the point of the matter is the following: Today on
7 page 6, Ms. Korner -- page 6, line 7, 8, 9, and 10, Ms. Korner said:
8 "I'm told that it was disclosed on the 1st of April 2010 in
9 batch -- we don't know what the batch number is, it's on the CD given to
10 the Defence on the 1st of April 2010 and it's also on EDS."
11 Now, Your Honours, the situation is as follows: We received the
12 batch, the disclosure batch 115 on the 23rd of March, 2010. The next
13 batch 116 was received on the 14th of April, 2010. There was no, and I
14 repeat, there was no disclosure on the 1st of April, 2010 neither to us
15 nor the Zupljanin Defence, we checked.
16 Now, the EDS has been checked at least five times. The document
17 does not exist on the EDS. Now, what the Office of the Prosecutor
18 provided to us is the following e-mail which we received on the 1st of
20 "Counsel, Ms. Savic informed us that the documents in the
21 attached note were not available on the EDS. Uploading them to EDS is
22 taking longer than anticipated, so we will disclose them to you on two
23 CDs this morning in court. Receipt of this mail will constitute proof of
24 receipt of two CDs unless otherwise indicated."
25 We never received these two CDs. I myself was not in the court
1 on the 1st of April, but I'm told and I was assured a number of times
2 that we haven't received the two discs mentioned in this -- two CDs
3 mentioned in this mail. The same goes for the Zupljanin Defence. They
4 have no record of receiving two discs on the 1st of April, 2010. That is
5 all I wanted to say. Thank you.
6 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm really sorry to hear that, but we say they
7 were disclosed in court. If they were not, I'm really surprised that
8 Ms. Savic, who as you will know is considered to be the most remarkably
9 efficient woman, did not write back saying where are the CDs you promised
10 us. They were disclosed. The documents are in EDS. What actually
11 happened was the request, original request from Ms. Savic saying we can't
12 find the following list of ERNs which we wanted on EDS, will you provide
13 them on disc. We had no obligation to do that, we did that, we gave them
14 the disc. They never wrote back. I don't know what they did with them
15 but that's the situation. We deny absolutely that we did not give them
16 these CDs and we are comforted by that is that we heard from neither
17 Defence saying they hadn't given it to us. So I hope that's the end of
18 the matter.
19 Your Honours, there's one other matter which is this: And can I
20 say we will now return to the old system whereby which we had originally
21 a physical piece of paper was handed to the Defence and they had to sign
22 which took a long time and meant if they were in Belgrade and we were
23 here they wouldn't get it, but if this is going to be dealt with in this
24 way that's what's going to happen, we'll go back to the old system.
25 The second matter is this: In terms and without any hesitation
1 this morning, Mr. Bjelosevic said that he made and signed a statement for
2 Mr. Cvijetic. I would now like a copy of that statement.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still maintain that
4 I do not have that statement and that I did not take such a sort of
5 statement from Mr. Bjelosevic. Maybe my memory is not the best but at
6 that moment I found around 5.000 documents that I had to organise. When
7 I return to Bijeljina, I'm going to go again through my documentation.
8 If I find something, I'm going to bring it. But as far as I remember
9 right now, no. I only took the most basic information that I needed at
10 the time and I listed them the last time.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And with that we take the adjournment to
12 the 2nd of May which I trust for everybody will be not only a safe time
13 but a time for reflection.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.57 a.m.
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of May,
16 2011, at 9.00 a.m.