1 Tuesday, 17 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
6 IT-08-91-T, The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
8 everyone. May we take the appearances, first of all, please.
9 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. With a very odd
10 LiveNote, it's Joanna Korner, Alexis Demirdjian and Crispian Smith for
11 the Prosecution.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
14 the Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
16 Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there are a couple of matters before
18 the witness comes into court. The first is this: As you know, he was
19 ordered to bring up the originals of the diaries and his military
20 booklet. I haven't had an opportunity to see whether the original of his
21 military booklet is there, but the diaries are certainly there and it
22 doesn't appear that he has brought anything extra. However, there's a
23 whole bunch, if I can put it that way, of other documents and at the
24 moment I'm not clear, because we haven't had a chance to look at them,
25 exactly what they are. Additionally, he has brought some CDs which
1 appear to contain videos which are new.
2 Now, Your Honours, I think we can get started. It may be the
3 simplest is to ask him what he has brought with him before we go any
4 further. Whether that's done by myself or Your Honours, I don't know. I
5 think we need to see what it all amounts to.
6 The second matter is this: Mr. Krgovic last, whenever it was,
7 Thursday, I think, told Your Honours that the only extra questions he
8 wanted to ask were limited to entries from the diary, and Your Honours
9 gave him leave. This morning, we've received a total of some further
10 nine documents that Mr. Krgovic apparently wishes to use in
11 cross-examination. Three are the diaries, we have no objection to that.
12 The others are documents that he could have used in his original
13 cross-examination. And, Your Honours, we therefore say, he could have
14 dealt with it then, the leave that he has been given to re-open his
15 cross-examination is limited to the diaries. It's a matter for
16 Your Honours having heard from Mr. Krgovic whether you grant him leave to
17 use the other documents.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not want my
19 cross-examination to be limited to the diaries. I wanted it to be
20 limited to the topics that I have touched upon before, and that was the
21 original objection by Ms. Korner. We were talking about topics from my
22 previous cross-examination. The new documents that I mention here are
23 related to the topics, and those documents also explain the entries made
24 by this witness and this will be the purpose of my cross-examination.
25 That was my original statement. My new cross-examination will
1 not go any further, anywhere beyond the topics that I have already
2 examined about. Many of the topics are mentioned in the entries in the
3 diaries and those new documents relate to those topics and those entries.
4 JUDGE HALL: So, Ms. Korner, it appears that the problem that you
5 thought exist doesn't really exist.
6 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it is a problem. He could have dealt
9 with the topics which are dealt with in those documents outside the
10 diaries at the time. Your Honours, there has to be a limit on what you
11 can do.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber is not persuaded by the objections
14 raised by the -- Ms. Korner and the leave granted to Mr. Krgovic would
15 be -- is going to be applied to allow him to deal with the -- these
16 documents that have just become the subject of this dispute.
17 You wanted to say something, Mr. Zecevic.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, about the first matter, if I can
19 be of any assistance to the Trial Chamber. First of all, it was my
20 understanding that Ms. Korner insisted that the witness brings the
21 originals of the documents that he provided to the OTP with him, so I
22 assume those are the documents because I haven't seen them. Now, about
23 the four videos, the four videos as far as we could have seen in the
24 couple of minutes that we have before, one video is concerning the crime
25 in Sijekovac which happened on the 27th of March, where, if you remember,
1 the Croatian troops crossed to Bosnia and committed a crime in one
2 Serbian village. The other is some tape of the TV show where this person
3 Anto Prkacin, who was the head of that particular unit, is talking
4 because, I couldn't hear what he was -- but I assume again that this
5 concerns this crime in Sijekovac. The third is some video of a camp in
6 Turlak in Bosanski Brod, which I wasn't aware of the existence of that
7 camp but I assume that is the camp which the Croat forces kept in
8 Bosanski Brod. Therefore, I don't think it's relevant. And the fourth
9 one, I'm sorry, it escaped me right now, I'm not sure. But again I don't
10 think any of these -- any of these videos are immediately relevant for
11 the subject matter of this case, but of course, Your Honours will ask the
12 witness about it. Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE HALL: There is a matter which the Chamber wishes to raise
14 in private session and after that is resolved, there are certain -- it
15 has been brought to the attention of the Chamber that there are certain
16 concerns that the witness has which we also need to deal with in private
17 session. But before we move into private session, I wonder if there are
18 any other housekeeping matters that we need address?
19 In which case we move into private session.
20 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
23 JUDGE HALL: And while the witness is on his way in, Mr. Zecevic,
24 it would be -- is a reminder from the Chamber to be grateful from your
25 batting order until the recess, end of July.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: It would be no problem, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, I cannot guarantee the dates, because --
4 but the batting order, yes.
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And of course the time needed.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, Your Honours. Well, there is still one
7 matter which is pending and that is a decision on videolink witnesses.
8 We requested a videolink for two witnesses.
9 JUDGE HALL: Which ruling should be issued shortly.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, could the usher please escort the witness back
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, good morning to you, sir. Welcome
15 back to the Tribunal. Because of the lengthy interruption in your
16 testimony, I would invite you to make the solemn declaration again.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. You may be seated.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE HALL: And before Ms. Korner -- before your
24 cross-examination resumes, I think it's Mr. Krgovic who would go first,
25 there are certain matters in respect of which we would have to go into
1 private session which we now do.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 20749-20755 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
10 JUDGE HALL: And there is a question, Mr. Bjelosevic, before
11 counsel continues, which because of the -- your status as a sworn
12 witness, counsel not having any contact with you, I suppose the Chamber
13 is in the best position to ask, and that is for you to let us know what
14 documents you have brought with you since the adjournment.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've brought with me what had been
16 required to be provided during my testimony, namely, I made photocopies
17 of specific documents. And with the aid of your staff who came to
18 Sarajevo, I dispatched this starting with this booklet, then proceeding
19 with my diaries from the relevant period, bulletins of daily events,
20 reports of certain security issues relating to that period that the
21 service acquired, and today I also brought four CDs that also pertained
22 to the year 1992. All of these are short entries but I think that,
23 nonetheless, each one of them speaks quite clearly about specific things
24 that I addressed in my previous testimony and also probably some things
25 that we are going to speak during the continuation of my testimony. And
1 I also brought a book that was mentioned here written by a group of
2 authors, a group of journalists from 1992, this is the original in German
3 and the translation into Serbian. And I would like to offer this as
4 well. I think this will be very helpful for everyone to take a look at.
5 I did not make any photocopies. You have two versions in two languages,
6 so it's up to you which one you decide to choose.
7 And that would be it.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I just ask Your Honours perhaps to
9 ask at this stage --
10 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I was going to invite you by way of
11 clarification to, yourself, ask the witness if the general question that
12 the Chamber phrased wasn't adequate.
13 MS. KORNER: If I may then, although this is all a bit odd
14 because Mr. Krgovic is going to re-cross examine.
15 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
16 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, are any of the paper documents that you have
17 brought up today ones which were not photocopied earlier and given to
18 VWS, leaving aside the diaries, please, and the German book? Did you
19 understand the question?
20 A. I'm not quite sure when you spoke about my journals that I
21 understood you properly. They have been photocopied but I brought the
22 originals for comparison and also the book, and as I said, it's the book
23 written in German and translated into Serbian. And there is also a
24 number of documents that we mentioned awhile ago, so all of that I
25 brought as photocopies and I also brought the originals for the sake of
2 Q. Yes. Sorry, thank you for that. But all I am concerned about is
3 forgetting the journals, forgetting the book, the wads of paper that we
4 can see you brought, were they all photocopied and given to VWS or are
5 there new documents that you did not give to VWS?
6 A. The four CDs have not been copied. I handed them over. That
7 also applies to the book and also to a number of documents that I have
9 Q. Right. Well, that's what I thought. Are you able yourself to
10 identify which documents that you brought up today you have not
11 previously photocopied and given to VWS? Are they in a separate bundle?
12 A. Here they are.
13 Q. Thank you. That's it. Thank you very much.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't think this will delay matters
15 today, but obviously we are going to ask that those documents are handed
16 over to VWS again for photocopies to be made today hopefully in the break
17 for us on the Defence, then we can see what they are.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
20 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic. I finished my
22 cross-examination. However, due to the emergence of new documents which
23 I'll have to go back again to discuss your journals and the events that
24 you described in your notes. Only one thing I'd like to clarify first.
25 If I understood you correctly, all the documents that you provided to the
1 VWS you copied, but there is a portion that you still haven't provided to
2 the VWS; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And these documents relate to 1992?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, one question relating to your journal, we are in
7 receipt of photocopies of the three journals. Are those notes of yours
8 contemporaneous notes, do they describe the events that happened in the
9 relevant period?
10 A. Yes, that covers a period 1991 and 1992, and it covers the places
11 where the meetings took place.
12 Q. And you subsequently did not enter any changes? This is
13 authentic document and your authentic notes as you made them at the time?
14 A. Yes, and I have the originals here and I believe that the
15 forensics is so advanced nowadays that if anyone wants to make any
16 comparison and make confirmation of the authenticity, it can easily be
18 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, let us go through some of your entries.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] So can I please have in e-court
20 Exhibit 2D101169. Your Honours, this is a portion of -- that's tab 5 in
21 Zupljanin Defence. It's tab 017 and it's a Prosecution Exhibit 2103.
22 Q. If it is easier for you, Mr. Bjelosevic, you can see that this is
23 an entry that you made on the 11th of July, 1992, so maybe you can find
24 your bearings easier in that way.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'm interested in this first part of your entry in which you
2 speak about, or, rather, you noted down the debate. I see on the
3 left-hand side it says "Zupljanin and Banja Luka." Does that mean that
4 you recorded what Stojan Zupljanin was saying?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Zupljanin spoke on behalf of the Banja Luka CSB, and then I
7 can see what other participants said, but I'm particularly interested in
8 this portion where you say under bullet number 2 that Mr. Zupljanin says,
9 "Engage the police for conduct of combat operations"?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please turn off the mike
12 while the witness is speaking.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. At the time, the engagement of the police in combat operation
15 presented a great problem, because the army quite often would take over
16 the whole police force of a police station and take them to the front
17 line leaving the police station practically devoid of the necessary
18 number of police officers necessary to carry out regular police work?
19 A. Yes, but let me elaborate a bit on this. On several occasions, I
20 had some live communication with Mr. Lisica at the time about this
21 subject. I don't want to leave the impression that I am complaining
22 about what Commander Lisica was doing because defence had always been
23 priority number one in our areas. And I fully understand that once he
24 wrote to me after I complained about the lack of police officers for
25 maintaining public law and order, he responded by saying if this goes on
1 and if the front line becomes weak and we have enemy forces capturing
2 Doboj, you will have no one to keep the law and order over. And as a
3 commander, he was completely right in thinking so. He had the right to
4 engage all the forces in the area of his responsibility because defence
5 was the priority number one. However, that produced a negative
6 ramifications on the public law and order, the safety of property of
7 people -- and people. And all chiefs of centres highlighted this as a
8 problem in this meeting as one of the critical problems affecting the
9 functioning of the surface during this chaotic war period.
10 Q. Can you briefly look at Exhibit P160 --
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I have one intervention, Your Honours. I note that
12 the translation of this page of the diary is inadequate. Perhaps the
13 witness can read for the record or we should resend this for revision of
14 the translation because it says, "Question of jurisdiction of military
15 authorities in MUP," which is a wrong translation.
16 JUDGE HALL: Perhaps we need do both, Mr. Zecevic.
17 Mr. Krgovic, could you ask the witness to read from the original.
18 Can we get the translation on the record and then have the exhibit
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, you will recall this is all being done
21 at top speed with the assistance of Your Honours. I am afraid that is
22 something that's going to happen. And at the moment, it will have to go
23 on the back burner because they are still trying to translate the other
24 entries. So it can't go back and be immediately corrected if it's wrong.
25 JUDGE HALL: Well, that's the second phase, but for the time
1 being if the witness's oral recitation of the contents could be
2 interpreted, at least that's a start.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll do this but
4 first I want to finish this subject and then we go back to the journal.
5 I asked the question about the first entry, but then after that, we'll
6 proceed. So can he now be shown P160, tab 66 of Stanisic's Defence, page
8 Q. I think that, Mr. Bjelosevic, you don't have this binder with
9 you. Therefore, would you be could kind to take it.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's ERN number 0324-1855, tab 66
11 of the Defence of Stanisic. Page 8 in e-court in the B/C/S version.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can you please look at the fourth paragraph from the top?
15 A. Number 8?
16 Q. No, it's your page 5 but in e-court it's page 8. You can see the
17 page number in the top corner.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This portion has been partially translated, so I'm going to read
20 it out to you carefully which reads that:
21 "Because of the casualties in Mrkonjic Grad, 20 active duty and
22 reserve police members were killed in one operation alone. Define the
23 role of the police and its direct engagement in combat activities and,
24 related to this, the reinforcements. The army is asking for the
25 engagement of the full force, want them to be re-subordinated and pushed
1 to the most difficult lines but this should be prevented."
2 Mr. Bjelosevic, this is basically the problem that was discussed
3 in this meeting of the 11th of July?
4 A. Yes, I took notes, very briefly, that would serve as a reminder
5 for myself, but here in this contribution of Mr. Zupljanin was recorded
6 in this minutes of the meeting and as I said, all chiefs of the centres
7 pin-pointed this problem about the engagement of the police.
8 Q. As far as what Mr. Zupljanin said is concerned, could you please
9 read out this last bullet point, the question of authority. So could you
10 please go back to your diary. Could you please go back to your diary.
11 So that is, again, 2D101169. Could you please read out aloud this last
12 bullet point that says, "The question of authority, the military
13 authorities and the MUP." That is where Mr. Zupljanin asked for a
15 A. He wanted to have a delineation of authority. So it is the
16 question of authority of the military authorities and the MUP.
17 Q. As far as I could understand, this was a problem that you were
18 facing as well and that is that there wasn't a clear distinction between
19 what who was in charge of. So what was requested was to state exactly
20 what the authority of the MUP was and what the authority of the military
21 was; isn't that right?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it would
24 be right to take the break now. Perhaps we could adjourn at this point
25 and I'm going to move on to something else afterwards.
1 JUDGE HALL: Very well. So we would resume in 20 minutes.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
5 JUDGE HALL: I expect that counsel have got the same report we
6 have, that the technical problems have been somewhat corrected, but we
7 are still not perfect yet.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, let us proceed. Could you please look at the
11 next entry in your diary. That is 2D101178, tab 6 of the Zupljanin
12 Defence. For you that is the entry of the 27th of August, 1992. It's
13 the second page in English.
14 Mr. Bjelosevic, from this page onwards over a few pages you
15 record some information that has to do with these persons who were in
16 Teslic. And you also say who sent them there and how that happened;
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Is it necessary for us to move into private session now?
20 A. If we are going to be discussing this, then, yes.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we please move
22 into private session.
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I thought the reasoning was that there
25 should be an explanation. I think I know what this is, but I think
1 Mr. Krgovic should ask what he is recording there and we'll see that it
2 doesn't require private session.
3 JUDGE HALL: But I'm a bit nervous about exploring reasons in
4 open session, Ms. Korner.
5 MS. KORNER: All right.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 20766-20769 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, can we take a look at another entry, 2D101187.
18 It's tab number 7 of Zupljanin Defence and that's the 9th of September,
20 Mr. Bjelosevic, this is a meeting held in Banja Luka on the
21 9th of September, 1992. Is that the meeting that we mentioned the last
22 time that I examined you, the meeting that was attending by
23 Mr. Zupljanin?
24 A. Yes, that's the one.
25 Q. In the first entry, we see a mention of a dispatch seeking
1 release or change of jurisdiction to the high court in Doboj. And then
2 under number 2, they mention the amount of foreign currency found in the
3 safe of the SJB, and then there's the issue of the official
4 identification card, the accommodation of the indicted persons, the
5 release of people from prison. So those are the topics discussed at this
6 meeting. We are now going to take a look at another document, but I
7 think that most of the persons mentioned were at liberty at the time.
8 This was some sort of post factum analysis of what had been done.
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. KORNER: As the interpreter translator couldn't read the word
11 "seeking of release of," could he tell us what that word is, please?
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the penultimate dash,
13 "release of persons from the prison in Banja Luka."
14 MS. KORNER: No, "9th of September, 1, dispatch seeking release
15 of ...," blank.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, could you please read carefully the whole
18 paragraph under number 1. Could you please read it aloud?
19 A. "Dispatch seeking release or handing over into the jurisdiction
20 of the high court in Doboj."
21 And I put a question mark here because a dispatch had been sent
22 by the court in Doboj to the court in Banja Luka seeking that in
23 accordance with the jurisdiction, people who were deprived of the liberty
24 in Teslic should be transferred to the prison in Doboj, and I also want
25 that topic to be discussed. We should have examined who signed this
1 order. There was another dispatch sent on behalf of the
2 Security Services Centre in Doboj, my name was typed but it was signed by
3 Milan Savic. So those are the issues that we discussed.
4 And now that we are talking about this, if you take a look at the
5 third dash from the bottom, accommodation of those persons and their
6 food. I had the principle objection, regardless of the fact that they
7 were suspects, I thought that they should have been issued with an order
8 about their detention the moment they were detained. That's what I
9 wanted explained, the kind of treatment that they received. And that's
10 what we discussed. There is one thing that I did not write in. I wanted
11 the investigation to encompass also the death of two persons, one of them
12 came with the third group from Doboj, and another of them was from
13 Teslic. If I remember his name, it was Tjecanin [phoen]. So as far as I
14 knew at the time, the investigation did not pertain to that and that's
15 why I insisted that the investigation should pertain to it as well.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, again, there is an intervention
17 concerning the translation. Your Honours will see that the original
18 document has five dashes, the entries. The first is Inspector Markovic,
19 then official identification card, and then the third dash which the
20 witness actually was commenting just now was not translated in the
21 English translation. The English translation has only four dashes and
22 the original has five.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm grateful for Mr. Zecevic. I
24 couldn't think what he was talking about because I couldn't see it
25 either. Could he read that again, the dash that's omitted.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, could you please read out aloud all the dashes,
3 or maybe just the third one, just the third dash?
4 A. Well, I can list them all. However the third one says,
5 "Accommodation of arrested persons." And then the next one is "Release
6 of people from the prison in Banja Luka." Should I read out the rest?
7 Q. No, thank you. I'm going to ask you a question. Mr. Bjelosevic,
8 you mentioned two dispatches that you discussed. One of them was signed
9 on your behalf. You mean the dispatch that was shown to you by
10 Mr. Zecevic during the examination-in-chief, the one that was signed on
11 your behalf?
12 A. Yes, that's one of them.
13 Q. I'm going to show you the second dispatch.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P1314. That's tab 8
15 in the Zupljanin binder.
16 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, you can see the document now. The president of
17 the higher court in Doboj sent it to the president of the Banja Luka high
18 court saying that bearing in mind the territorial jurisdiction and the
19 subject matter jurisdiction, those persons should be transferred from
20 Banja Luka to the detention in Doboj and that was done.
21 A. Yes, that's the document that I mentioned and that's it. You
22 know, there were many manipulations and various interpretations of what
23 was going on and who requested what and who did not request other things,
24 and that's why we held that meeting in order to clarify some of those
25 issues. The investigative judge was present, the Prosecutor,
1 Mr. Zupljanin, I was present. I don't remember other people but those
2 that I've just mentioned, they most definitely did attend that meeting.
3 Q. And when they were transferred, those persons were then handed
4 over to the jurisdiction of the court and judicial organs in Doboj; is
5 that right?
6 A. I don't know their fate in relation to the judicial process, so
7 to speak. I don't know which organ was in charge of that. However, they
8 were transferred from the Banja Luka prison to the Doboj prison. Now, I
9 cannot claim that with any certainty, but I think that the same day or
10 the day after, some of them were sent to attend -- to be attended by
11 doctors, but anyway, they were released. I suppose that the whole
12 proceedings continued in the Teslic court.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 2D88. It's tab
14 number 3 in the Zupljanin Defence binder. 2D88.
15 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, this is ruling by the Teslic lower court which
16 cancel the detention for some persons on the 21st of July, 1992.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page of the
19 Q. In the second paragraph you can see that the public prosecutor in
20 Teslic agreed to this release; is that true?
21 A. Yes, that is what it says here.
22 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, so you know that all those persons were
23 transferred to the Doboj prison where they spent some time?
24 A. Yes, as far as I know. I think they were even transferred there
25 by a prison bus belonging to the Doboj prison, but whether they were
1 released on the same day or on the following day, I do not know.
2 However, later on they were all released and now I see the decision on
3 termination of their detention.
4 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit P1313.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, I may not have understood the point
6 you wished to make here, but could I ask you of the relevance of this?
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have heard
8 testimony before this Chamber -- or, part of the Prosecution case is that
9 those persons were released with the agreement of Stojan Zupljanin. We
10 even heard testimony that some of them were released without even being
11 detained in the Doboj prison, a witness testified to that effect in
12 closed session. I want to show through these documents that this is
13 incorrect and that they were released in accordance with the documents
14 that I have just shown to the witness. Therefore, Stojan Zupljanin had
15 nothing to do with these proceedings once the criminal report had been
16 filed, that's what I want to show here.
17 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic --
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P1313, page 30 in
19 English and in Serbian. And I'm going to give you a photocopy so that
20 you can follow.
21 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, take a look at 144.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You can see Miroslav Pijunovic, Slobodan Tekic,
25 Dobrivoje Culibrk, all the persons up and including 150. Is that the
1 group that you mentioned?
2 A. Did you say 144?
3 Q. 140. 140? No, 144. 144.
4 A. I see a different person under this number. It's Todorovic and
5 then Bozic, Mesanovic [phoen]. However on the screen, yes, that's what
6 you are talking about. Miroslav Pijunovic, Slobodan Tekic,
7 Dobrivoje Culibrk, Stojan Zuric [phoen], and others, yes, and they are
8 the persons that we mentioned earlier.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the following page in
11 Q. Take a look at the date, date of imprisonment. The fourth from
12 the top, it says, "Transferred on the 17th of July from the Banja Luka
14 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
15 Q. And released on the 6th of August by the Teslic high court,
16 that's what it says here. Take a look at the next column.
17 A. Yes, that's what I see here. I really don't know how long they
18 spent in prison after they had been transferred from Banja Luka to the
19 Doboj prison, but I know that later on they were released, and now I saw
20 the decision issued by the court with the agreement of the prosecutor.
21 Q. And then when there was mention of this case at the meeting in
22 Banja Luka, a conclusion was for the judiciary to continue doing their
23 job. The only thing that you were interested in was not to have your
24 name mentioned in that context and to have it cleared?
25 A. Yes, because there were some rumours and stories that it was I
1 who had sent those men there and that I asked for them to be set free
2 which was not correct. If anyone wishes to claim otherwise, I would like
3 to challenge them to prove that. I know that there was a letter in which
4 my name was typed, but it was signed by Mr. Savic, and, of course, the
5 judge and the prosecutor were the persons who took charge. From that
6 moment onwards, the only thing we could do was to point to certain
7 things, but everybody knows that once a matter goes into the hands of a
8 court it is up to the court to make decisions.
9 Q. But do you know that in addition to this letter signed by Savic,
10 there was also a letter from the operations group sent to the court in
11 Teslic seeking their release?
12 A. Yes, I have heard of the document seeking the release of these
13 persons and I also heard that there were certain threats made, but I
14 personally did not witness that.
15 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at document P1364, tab 9. And this
16 is going to be the last document that I am going to show you. Is this
17 the document that you spoke about?
18 A. Obviously this is the document in which there is a request for
19 these men to be released to join armed combat, and should any criminal
20 proceedings be conducted, that that should be done at a later stage.
21 Yes, that's the letter I heard of.
22 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, my last question for you is: Mr. Zupljanin had
23 nothing to do with the release of these persons nor with any subsequent
25 A. As far as I know, he had nothing to do with the release, and I
1 also don't believe that he could have had any influence on the subsequent
2 proceedings because --
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic, I have
4 no questions for you. Your Honours, I have concluded my
6 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
7 Q. You don't actually know, one way or the other, do you,
8 Mr. Bjelosevic, whether Mr. Zupljanin had anything do with the release of
9 these men?
10 A. I don't know that he had anything to do with that.
11 Q. Well, just to make it clear, you don't know whether he did have
12 anything to do with it or didn't have anything to do with it?
13 A. I don't think that he had anything to do with it based on all the
14 information that I had about this situation. That's my conclusion and I
15 also -- I never saw any document to support that.
16 Q. In all the investigations that you did into this matter, which
17 I'm going to return to later on, did you ever ask Mr. Zupljanin directly
18 whether he had anything to do with the release of these people?
19 A. We talked at this meeting held on the 9th of September and that
20 is when he said that he did not influence this matter at all and that he
21 had no means of deciding on this issue, which, by virtue of his position,
22 that was impossible. Once people are handed over to the court and the
23 prosecution office with the criminal report, nobody can do anything
24 further with regard to that a even if one wanted to have an interview,
25 for example, if an inspector wanted to interview any such person, they
1 had to seek approval from the investigating judge.
2 Q. All right. I'm going to return to this because I want to deal
3 with things in order.
4 I want to go back, Mr. Bjelosevic, to the documents that you have
5 and that you have provided. First of all, the three volumes of notebook
6 that you provided to us or to VWS, are these official notebooks that you
7 had to keep as a member of the MUP?
8 A. No, that's not an official document. These are my own notes that
9 I took as a kind of reminder for myself. I just noted things down as
10 bullet points. As you can see, this is not an official document and it
11 doesn't comply with any official format. These are just my personal
13 Q. So there were notes made of meetings that you attended and, as it
14 were, reminders of things that you had to do; is that correct?
15 A. Roughly speaking, that's correct, because I noted down what I
16 thought was important.
17 Q. I understand that. But that's not quite an answer to my
18 question. You noted down meetings you attended, the things that you
19 thought were important. That's what you just said; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And also, as it were, things to do, what might commonly be called
22 a to-do list?
23 A. Yes, this served as a kind of reminder to me.
24 Q. Now, the first diary that you provided to us starts in -- just
25 let me get this right. Sorry, Your Honour. Starts, I think, in May of
1 1991; is that correct? Can you just confirm, you've got the original
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And finishes in October 1991?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you start that -- carrying and using that notebook from
7 the moment that you became the chief of the Doboj CSB in 1991?
8 A. I see that the first entry refers to a meeting held on the
9 27th of May, so I didn't cover the first days of my duty.
10 Q. So you started your duties sometime in May of 1991; is that
12 A. I think that's correct. I think it was in the beginning of May.
13 I can't tell you precisely.
14 Q. Right. The second notebook, is this correct, begins on the
15 9th of January, 1992? Sorry, second notebook - I beg your pardon, my
16 fault - begins on the 4th of November, 1991? Sorry.
17 A. The 30th of November, 1991.
18 Q. Are you sure about that? Don't you have entries for the 4th of
19 November --
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, I don't know how it was translated, but
21 I believe the witness said the other month, 30th of other month, not
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The 30th of October,
25 MS. KORNER:
1 Q. Right. 30th of October, 1991, perhaps you better tell us, and
2 runs until when?
3 A. Well, let's have a look. If I see it correctly, the last entry
4 is on the 8th of April, 1992.
5 Q. And it stops there?
6 A. Yes, this journal ends here.
7 Q. And then the third one, please, could you tell us the entries
8 there that they run from when to when?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please switch off the mike
10 when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is something written before
12 that, but the first date that appears is the 10th of July, 1992, when I
13 was preparing for a meeting in Belgrade and there's also some notes that
14 refer to that.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. And when does that end, that notebook?
17 A. Well, practically until the end of December of that year, but
18 actually, there is also one entry dated the 5th of January, 1993. The
19 5th of January is the last entry.
20 Q. Could you tell us, please, Mr. Bjelosevic, where are your notes
21 for the three-month period, roughly, between the 8th of April, 1992, and
22 the 10th of July, 1992?
23 A. I did not keep notes in that period. I relied mostly on
24 information bulletins and other information gathered by the service
25 relating to hostile activities of paramilitary formations, and so on and
1 so forth. So in that period, as I said earlier, the centre did not have
2 its proper departments and was unable to function properly during that
4 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, the 8th of April is roughly -- it's roughly a
5 week after the formation of the Serbian MUP and you are, during the
6 course of April, as we've seen, sending correspondence both to the old
7 BiH MUP and dealing with the new RS MUP. Let's just deal with April.
8 What made you suddenly depart from your usual practice which you had
9 followed slavishly up until then of making notes?
10 A. I did not act in any slavish way because that's not my nature.
11 Whatever I noted down was correct and true. I wish you could understand
12 what the situation in the Doboj region was at the time, and perhaps if
13 you would care to look at the video-clips that I provided and the
14 information bulletins, you might get some insight into that because that
15 was an extraordinary situation. There were extraordinary events taking
16 place that were completely contrary to a normal situation, and during
17 that period I was literally stretched between Doboj, Derventa, and the
18 commands of -- in Doboj and Derventa barracks because as I said the
19 situation became extremely complicated. And now I'm telling you that I
20 relied mostly in my work on the summary reports about the security
21 situation on the ground and the information bulletins, and if you saw
22 them yourselves, you could have seen that once an operative finished
23 typing a daily bulletin, then he would add something by hand that
24 happened in the meantime.
25 When I received a bulletin, it would turn out that even new
1 developments happened in the meantime, so I would add new information by
2 hand. So the things were going on at such a pace and speed that I really
3 spent the least of my time in the office trying to make and take down
5 Q. Yes, but surely, Mr. Bjelosevic, in a period like this whereas
6 you say so much was happening, it was more important that you should keep
7 notes of what you should be doing, where you should be going, and
8 meetings that you were having?
9 A. I would really ask everybody who are making judgements about
10 certain periods and certain events to at least try to perceive the things
11 within the given time and under the given circumstances. Believe me,
12 after 19 years, even I who had gone through this, in hindsight this might
13 seem a little bit different. But at the time that was an a incredible
14 dynamics of developments, the events were stressful, so to put it simply,
15 we could not work and operate in a normal atmosphere.
16 I really don't know -- I don't know what the point is of your
17 question, but if you think that I took some notes and I'm not willing to
18 show them, then I think you are wrong.
19 Q. Yes. You have, in fact, reached the obvious conclusion that I'm
20 going to put you to. But just before I do, do you agree, Mr. Bjelosevic,
21 that it was in May and June in particular that the serious crimes took
22 place in Doboj?
23 A. I absolutely agree with you, but let me just remind you that the
24 centre was incapable of functioning properly, and I, myself, as the chief
25 of the centre, was excluded by the Crisis Staff from all these affairs.
1 You will remember the decision of the Crisis Staff which stipulates that
2 all people involved in security business should be placed under the
3 jurisdiction of the Doboj CSB, and the only authorised person to organise
4 and run these things in Doboj area was that person. On the other hand, I
5 told you before and I said so to the Honourable Chamber, that I was
6 engaged in military issues and that I wasn't sitting in my office at the
7 centre. I only went there occasionally especially to collect these
8 reports and information, but I wasn't spending all my time in my office
9 nor did I keep any documents on my own because I didn't have anyone to
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, I have another intervention in the
12 transcript. It says -- it's page 21, line 7. I believe the -- it is
14 "... jurisdiction of the Doboj CSB, and the only authorised
15 person to organise and run these things in Doboj area was that person."
16 I believe the witness said something different and it is
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, it doesn't make sense, yes.
19 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, can you repeat, please, what you told the Court
20 slowly so that we get correct interpretation, what you were saying about
21 Crisis Staffs order about persons involved in security?
22 A. You asked me if a lot of criminal offences were being committed
23 at the time --
24 Q. Don't repeat the whole answer, please. It's taking long enough
25 as it is. Just repeat what you said about the Crisis Staff decision in
1 respect of security person.
2 A. I said that pursuant to a decision taken by the Crisis Staff it
3 was stipulated that all personnel, or more precisely as it's stated
4 there, individuals and groups involved in security business should be
5 placed under the jurisdiction of the Doboj public security station chief
6 who was the only authorised person for organising and managing security
7 operations and issues in the area of Doboj. Therefore, it means that I
8 was excluded from these affairs.
9 Q. During this period, the period you say you could do nothing, in
10 fact, you have an alibi for anything that when on for Doboj and during
11 that period, did you rely on the daily bulletins that you have spoken
12 about for the information that you got?
13 A. From the 30th of April, there were no daily bulletins that were
14 kept. I would like to note that the operations duty service of the CSB
15 Doboj which was otherwise part of the milicija department was not
16 functioning at that period of time at all until the CSB was established
17 once again, and that was sometime in July, the end of July. And I think
18 that the operations duty service started operating only from the end of
19 August or the beginning of September within the centre.
20 Q. Well, then, I'll go back to my original question, Mr. Bjelosevic:
21 Wasn't it even more important than it had been before that you kept notes
22 of what you were doing, who you were seeing?
23 A. It wasn't important for me. When the operation corridor was
24 underway, and I already told you that I was in a command position, that's
25 the kind of documentation that was kept then, and once the task was
1 completed and this is handed over to the command in charge.
2 Q. But, okay, let's deal with the period that you were in the
3 military, as you -- or working in the military. You don't have any notes
4 at all about any meetings you held with General Talic or anybody else, do
6 A. No, no, I have nothing. Perhaps it would be a good thing for me
7 to recall on this occasion that during exercises before the war we were
8 issued with official notebooks when we attended these exercises, and you
9 will see in my military booklet that I have those exercises recorded.
10 Once the exercise was over, then we had to return these military
11 notebooks before we went back home. Those were the rules in the
13 Q. Well, I am sorry, you are saying, are you, that you had a
14 separate notebook during this period when you were, as you assert,
15 working with General Talic, which you don't have at all?
16 A. First of all, I did not use the word "rokovnik," let that be
17 quite clear. I said that during this command duty there was a certain
18 documentation that was kept, and it was in the form of a work map and
19 there were code documents for keeping communications running. That was
20 after my mission was accomplished. After I finished that duty, then this
21 was handed over to the command.
22 Q. I don't know, I am afraid, what the word means that you mentioned
23 in the Serbian language. But do I understand this, you didn't have a
24 notebook in the way that you have got these notebooks here whilst you
25 were with the military?
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. Do you have any documentation that shows that you were working
3 with the military during the period from the beginning of May until the
4 end of June?
5 A. I would just like to make a distinction as follows: Between the
6 army, on the one hand, and defence on the other, to make things clearer.
7 In the beginning of May, we started preparing for what would happen
8 later, that is to say Operation Corridor. All information that was
9 relevant to security as far as the strength of the enemy was concerned,
10 was handled by the security service of the military. And separate from
11 that, I used documents from the state security service and then we
12 compared the two, we cross-referenced this information, we made our
13 assessments in order to be able to make the best decision possible for
14 the problem of the corridor.
15 So that was for the army, if I can put it that a way. And then
16 the later period was within the army itself, when I was given a certain
17 direction and certain forces and all the way up until the completion of
18 that task. You will look at the dates, and you will see on the basis of
19 those dates --
20 Q. I am sorry to stop you, but I've just had a notice come up on my
21 LiveNote saying "server connection disabled." I don't know whether
22 that's on anybody else's.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the break now anyhow.
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes, perhaps it's convenient at this point to take
25 the break and see if this technical problem can be corrected.
1 MS. KORNER: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Bjelosevic.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
5 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, while the witness is on his way in,
6 could you reserve two minutes for me at the end of today, please. Thank
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MS. KORNER:
11 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, I interrupted you in your answer because of the
12 problems with LiveNote. The question I asked you was a very simple,
13 straightforward one, namely: Do you have any documentation that shows
14 that you were working with the military during the period from the
15 beginning of May until the end of June, and you were giving a very long
16 answer which I stopped. You had begun to say, and this is at line 17 of
17 page 24:
18 "The later period was within the army itself when I was given a
19 certain direction and certain forces and all the way up until the
20 completion of that task. You will look at the dates and you will see on
21 the basis of those dates," and I interrupted you there.
22 I will let you finish this answer, but can I just say this: I am
23 asking fairly simple, straightforward questions. It would help
24 enormously if you would answer those questions directly, because the
25 longer your answers, the longer you are going to be sitting here.
1 A. I shall endeavour to be concise. When I spoke about the dates, I
2 said that you can find it out also in this information, and I also wanted
3 to say that I spent a period of time working on the exchange of
4 information and planning of the Operation Corridor. Another period of
5 time I spent on a command duty taking part in the operations, and after
6 that, after that assignment had been completed, I again spent most of my
7 time at the command post in Duga Neva [phoen]. That's where we exchanged
8 and evaluated information about what is about to face our forces.
9 Q. I will repeat the question, and it can, I suggest to you, be
10 answered yes or no. Do you have any documentation that shows that you
11 were working with the military during the period from the beginning of
12 May until the end of June?
13 A. I don't have these documents with me.
14 Q. Now, I my return to the question of your notes, but can I just
15 ask you this, Mr. Bjelosevic, you told the Court before you left that you
16 had gone to Zenica because you heard that you are being investigated and
17 that you -- it was at that stage that you started to take copies of
18 documents from the Doboj archives. Did you at the same time get rid of
19 any notes you had for the period April until the end of June 1992?
20 A. No way. What should I get rid of?
21 Q. Any notes that might show your involvement, knowledge of, or
22 discussions about the crimes that were being committed in the Doboj area
23 in May and June of 1992?
24 A. No. Anything that I knew in May and June resulted in reaction
25 from me and you could see that through several orders.
1 Q. And I just want you to confirm what you told the Court. Your
2 account is that during May and June you were away with the military
3 returning only occasionally to Doboj; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that the CSB Doboj was not operating?
6 A. That's true.
7 Q. I want to move to the other documents, please, however. You
8 kindly provided a breakdown of where you acquired the documents that were
9 part of the Defence exhibits and that you had handed over to the Defence.
10 And I think if we may, we better have, first of all -- yes, well I think
11 the best thing is if we put up the translation and the original of the
12 document. I think it's in Sanction; is that right?
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's not an exhibit. I mean, it's not
14 something I'm asking be made an exhibit, but I think it may help if you
16 Q. Now, is this right, Mr. Bjelosevic, what we can see ourselves and
17 we've got a translation is that that was the original list that was
18 provided by the Stanisic Defence to us of documents they had acquired
19 from you, and you wrote by the side of it where you had acquired these
20 documents; is that right?
21 A. You mean the things that I brought here? Because I can't see
22 anything on my monitor.
23 Q. No.
24 MS. KORNER: Could somebody ...
25 Q. That's right, is it, that's your writing we can see on the list
1 of documents?
2 A. Yes, that's what I wrote when I left this place. However, either
3 there was some repetition of numbers or I misread something because some
4 front pages have more than one number. That's the reason that I didn't
5 finish the marking of all the documents because I found that some numbers
6 on the document started repeating.
7 Q. Right. I accept that it wasn't always easy to see because there
8 were a number of different numbers on the documents that are in the
9 binder for the Defence which is which, but you say copied from the
10 archive, I think, yes, if we look at item number 1. Are we talking about
11 the Doboj archive?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And those documents that you had copied for you when you -- at
14 the time that you went up to - I want to say Derventa but it's not -
15 Zenica in about 2004 or 2003? Sorry.
16 A. Excuse me, I didn't understand the question.
17 Q. When you say copied from the archive, were those copies made at
18 the time that you went up to Zenica to see why you were being
20 A. Yes. I copied a number of documents at that time. I requested
21 them to be copied. Another number of documents I had already had with me
22 because I had them in possession.
23 Q. And you know, don't you, that none of these documents any longer
24 exist in the archives at Doboj. They appear to have been destroyed?
25 A. I wouldn't know that.
1 Q. And destroyed at some stage after you had taken these copies.
2 You know nothing about that?
3 A. No. No, I really know nothing about that. I never deal with
4 archives and now I hear this for the first time from you. However, let
5 me just say one thing. As far as I know, I don't know exactly when, but
6 your people, your investigators also visited those archives much, much
7 earlier, and I think that I heard that they took some of the documents
8 for your needs. I'm not quite sure whether they made copies or whether
9 they actually removed documents.
10 Q. I don't want to give evidence, you are absolutely right, as you
11 know because I presume you were there, the Doboj archives have been
12 visited on a number of occasions.
13 Now, next there are documents which you obviously provided but
14 you don't specify where they came from, it's blank. Just see if we look,
15 for example, at item number 13 on this page you've written "copy?"
16 A. I don't know what it is unless I see the document. I think that
17 I probably couldn't remember. I will have to look at the document
19 Q. All right. Where we see a complete blank, for example number 15?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There's nothing there. I mean, does that mean when you looked at
22 the document you were unable to remember where you had acquired it from?
23 A. Probably. Or maybe I found another repetition of the number.
24 It's one or the other.
25 Q. Now, some of the documents, for example, number 25 on the list
1 you say kept copy from 1992 and that entry appears on a number of
2 documents. What was it about these particular documents that made you
3 keep them in 1992?
4 A. I don't know exactly what document that is. I would have to take
5 another look at it.
6 Q. All right. Quite difficult to sort out myself where they appear
7 in the Defence bundle. Can you give us a general policy, why did you
8 keep some documents in 1992, or copies of some documents in 1992 itself?
9 A. That's what I began to explain. So I don't know exactly about
10 this document but there were some documents, for instance, dispatches or
11 some informations which were then followed by certain activities,
12 meetings, analysis, et cetera. And then a copy of such a document I
13 would keep for my own needs while those activities were being carried
14 out, activities related to certain event.
15 Q. But that's massive generalisation, Mr. Bjelosevic. Can we have a
16 specific example of what you are talking about? Well, let's have a look.
17 I'm told that the document you wanted to look at is tab 131 in the
18 Defence bundle. 65 ter 231D1.
19 A. What is the tab number?
20 Q. 131, I gather.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we switch from Sanction.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a bad copy, but as far as I
23 can see it is about the regulating of the situation related to the
24 reserve police forces.
25 MS. KORNER:
1 Q. Yes. So exactly, I want to know why that was a document that you
2 kept a copy of in 1992?
3 A. I will tell you straightaway. Maybe you recall that we looked at
4 one document here. It was a document related to the inspection of the
5 public security station in Doboj where it had been found that five
6 reserve policemen, if I'm not mistaken, did not satisfy the conditions
7 stipulated by law, such as having served the national service, and that
8 they hadn't been convicted and similar things. On several occasions
9 various stations were reminded to run those checks and some of them
10 simply didn't want to do that. And I have to tell you that at the time I
11 couldn't assume that this topic would be discussed before this
12 Trial Chamber at some point in future, but trust me, from the very
13 beginning, and it was maybe a bit unusual that a subordinate would reply
14 to orders coming from the minister and trying to draw his attention to
15 some irregularities, but still I was of the opinion at the time that a
16 day would come when all things would have to be explained, especially
17 things related to the fact that the law was not observed.
18 And I simply wanted to have the situation in which such
19 activities could be properly discussed at some future point.
20 Q. Can I say, Mr. Bjelosevic, I accept that entirely. You were,
21 weren't you, during the course of this period, concerned that in the
22 future there might well be trials over what had happened in Doboj in
23 1992? That's what you said, hadn't you?
24 A. I was talking about unlawful conduct at various levels. I
25 mentioned and order from the minister, maybe you remember, we mentioned
1 it in my previous testimony, and I wasn't talking only about Doboj. You
2 can take a look at Brod as well. If you want to see what Anto Prkacin
3 explained on the independent television in Banja Luka, you will be able
4 to see that literally confirmed what I said here. Things related to the
5 arrival of his forces from Slavonski Brod, the take-over of the public
6 security station in Bosanski Brod, the disarming of 50-odd policemen, and
7 so and on so forth. I'm talking here about a wider context, not about a
8 particular instance. There were many irregularities in conduct at
9 various places in various levels.
10 Q. Absolutely. Can I make it clear to you, Mr. Bjelosevic, as I
11 think you understood, you want to tell this Court about the crimes that
12 were committed about Serbs, and that's the CDs you brought with you,
13 isn't it?
14 A. Not only that. That as well of course, of course, but it wasn't
15 only that. We are talking about everything that happened, all the crimes
16 that were committed, about all of this unlawful behaviour, about this
17 overall chaotic situation, lack of order.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last part of
19 the sentence.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Could you repeat the last part of your sentence. If you can pull
22 the microphones down a bit so that they get it and I'll turn mine off.
23 A. I was not talking only about a narrow area or a particular event.
24 I am talking about everything unlawful that was happening, about crimes
25 that were being committed. I am talking about a totally chaotic
1 situation that prevailed at the time. I've been saying time and again
2 that all of you who are dealing with these matters should try to
3 understand the entirety of the situation and the problems that prevailed
4 at the time. Believe me, that is what I wish. It never crossed my mind,
5 not even at a subconscious level that one should remain silent about any
6 crime or that one crime would justify another. However, you have to
7 understand what kind of times we were living in. Wasn't it criminal to
8 attack a public security station and to disarm the personnel there. And
9 then to have, as you will see in these statements of people who were
10 there, obviously there was this person who was in a position of authority
11 who allowed them to do so.
12 I am sorry, but may I just note one more thing. When I spoke
13 about that during my previous testimony, I apologise for having noticed
14 that, but I did see that you smiled and this made you smile, but believe
15 me, I was chief of a public security station there at the time and that
16 kind of thing happened. There would be formations coming from elsewhere,
17 from an independently recognised state by then and they simply took over
18 your public security station.
19 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, can I say straightaway so that you don't have to
20 go on repeating this, I accept that crimes were committed against Serbs,
21 but we are dealing in this trial with your actions. So you issued -- you
22 kept this order, didn't you, because you knew full well that the MUP in
23 Doboj and elsewhere from the meetings you attended was filled with people
24 who were committing criminal offences and who in the past had a criminal
25 record? You knew that at the time, didn't you?
1 MR. ZECEVIC: I would kindly ask that Ms. Korner repeats her
2 question because she made two suggestions to the witness. One, the
3 people committing crimes, and the people having a criminal record. So
4 the witness should be asked the direct question and then he can answer.
5 MS. KORNER: I accept that, I'll split that.
6 Q. You knew, Mr. Bjelosevic, don't you, that in the ranks of the MUP
7 in the Doboj, the wide of Doboj municipality, there were members of the
8 police who were committing criminal acts?
9 A. I had knowledge to that effect. However, you did see what my
10 reactions to that were, that there were oral orders and orders in
11 writing. When we established contact, then the minister also asked for
12 this to be clarified, eliminated, et cetera. Let me
13 try to explain something else to make it clear here. I hope that you do
14 not think that the chiefs of centres selected reserve
15 policemen and that they could individually know about every one of these
16 persons. That was the problem. The local forces, namely the
17 Crisis Staffs and political persons imposed themselves, as you saw in
18 Samac and elsewhere, and they started running the service at one
19 point in time and that was the problem.
20 Q. I know that you want to blame everyone but yourself,
21 Mr. Bjelosevic, but can we stick to the points that I'm asking you about.
22 Did you also know that some of these police officers working in the wider
23 Doboj area who had committed -- who were committing criminal offences had
24 in the past committed criminal offences?
25 A. With your permission, this is would really have to be broken
1 down. Policemen who were policemen before the war could not be policemen
2 if they had committed crimes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
4 microphones please be switched off.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything went haywire with the
6 reserve police, starting with that order from the Ministry of the
7 Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the effect that units of the
8 Territorial Defence and volunteers should be included in the stations.
9 That's when the non-selective manning of reserve police stations started
10 running against the rules that were in force in terms of getting
11 appropriate clearance for the persons who would be involved there. So
12 the code no longer existed.
13 MS. KORNER:
14 Q. I take it by that you are referring to Pusina's order back in
15 April; is that right?
16 A. Yes, I think there were two such orders that pertained to that.
17 Q. Yes, I'll -- I'm coming to that later, but can I just ask for the
18 third time the simple question to which I would like a simple answer.
19 However they had come to be in the police, there were people who were
20 authorised officials in the RS MUP in 1992 who had criminal records, were
21 there not?
22 A. There were such persons as well in the reserve police.
23 Q. Whether they were in the reserve police or not, they had become,
24 had they not, authorised officials?
25 A. I have already pointed out that we have to make a distinction
1 between the active-duty personnel and the reserve personnel.
2 Q. I'll leave this because we could spend even longer.
3 This order of which you kept a copy in 1992 was intended to be
4 part of your defence if you were ever asked about what you had done to
5 show that you issued an order that those who do not meet the specified
6 criteria should be effectively sent to the military; is that right?
7 A. That's not the way I looked at it. I did not perceive from the
8 assumption that somebody would be putting questions to me as to what I
9 had done. Rather, I thought that the questions would be put to those
10 persons why they did not act in accordance with orders and rules and
12 Q. I suggest to you, Mr. Bjelosevic, that these sorts of orders of
13 which we see numerous examples from you, from Mr. Stanisic and from
14 others are no more than window dressing, that you never expected nor
15 intended that these orders should be carried out?
16 A. I would not agree with you. I do not agree with one per cent of
17 what you are stating so categorically. You can call the chiefs of
18 stations from the relevant period and the komandirs as well, and you can
19 ask them what I said to them during meetings in addition to what I wrote
20 here. And by now, sorry, but I am talking this as an insult that I was
21 thinking one thing, writing up another thing and doing yet a third thing.
22 I could not agree with that.
23 Q. All right. Can we look, please -- can we go back to the list
24 that you prepared which is in Sanction. Number 84. We maybe better see
25 what the document is. You've written, "Kept one copy for myself in 1992
1 unlawfully." What do you mean by that?
2 A. I don't know. I have to see what this is all about first. I
3 assume that it has do with an order that is unlawful or a report that was
4 saying that something unlawful had been done. I don't know. I don't
5 know which document that is.
6 MS. KORNER: It's tab 36 in your binder. The exhibit number is
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. That is one of the orders
9 that is truly unlawful. If you allow me, I would like to give my comment
10 as to why it is unlawful.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
12 microphones please be switched off.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this dispatch, it is actually
14 one of those signed by Mr. Jasarevic and another one, as you had rightly
15 said, was signed by Pusina. Please, how can someone expect you to have a
16 proper structure of the police or milicija, whatever, at the relevant
17 time it was called milicija, when it says here volunteers or persons who
18 are military conscripts that are placed in other ways under the command
19 of, et cetera, et cetera. So what I keep saying, see, the period here is
20 the 8th of April, 1992. That's when it was sent. Mr. Pusina also sent
21 his order at that time. It wasn't that a service was being established,
22 an army was being established to attain military objectives, something
23 similar was happening in Croatia, too. That's the problem. And believe
24 me, that stay of Mr. Hebib's in Brod and that surrender, that was the
25 creation of an army and then since there were such personnel there, you
1 can imagine what kind of people you can run across.
2 And just one more example in this regard. Soon after that, I got
3 a report from the Derventa public security station where precisely these
4 forces that have showed up there as a territorials, as volunteers,
5 entered the public security station, disarmed the people there, the
6 policemen there and threw them out, these policemen, these legal
7 policemen were simply thrown out of the building, they took the building,
8 they looted it, that was it. There was a wave of things like that that
9 were happening. So wasn't it logical for me to keep a dispatch of this
10 kind that was totally unlawful. Again I'm telling you I had no idea that
11 The Hague Tribunal would be established and that we would be discussing
12 this here. However, I was hoping that a proper state would be
13 established where we would clarify such matters. I didn't want to be
14 part of this story. You saw that on the basis of my dispatches that I
15 sent to the then minister of the interior.
16 Q. So the "unlawfully" doesn't mean that you unlawfully had a copy
17 of it. The "unlawfully," and can I check that is the proper translation
18 of the word you used, refers to your -- the contents of the document?
19 A. That's right. What I meant was "nazakonito [phoen] naredjenje,"
20 unlawful order. That's why I kept it.
21 MS. KORNER: Can you just -- sorry, can we go back to the actual
22 document on Sanction for a moment?
23 Q. Can you just please read out what you actually wrote, word for
24 word, next to document number 84?
25 A. "Kept one copy for myself 1992," and then I placed a note there,
1 "unlawful" meaning unlawful order. Perhaps I should have added the word
2 order or content. However, there was not enough space for that to be
3 written there.
4 Q. Some of the entries, very quickly, I'm spending rather too much
5 time on this, say copies from records. For example number 44, what is
6 that from? What records? Not from the archive.
7 A. It might be that this is a document that was in the records of
8 either in the protocol department or somewhere else, but anyway, I would
9 need to see the document itself in order to be able to give you a more
10 precise answer. If you can give me a minute, maybe I can trace it.
11 Q. As I say I'm spending rather too long on this. Finally, on this
12 question of documents, you provided us -- all of us with an extra, I
13 think, rough estimate was 180-odd separate documents. I'm just trying to
14 find my note for them. But anyhow, where did those new documents come
15 from? Were they all at home?
16 A. Yes those documents were with me and if you wish we can clarify
17 them one by one. So the information bulletin was made out in the
18 necessary number of copies and one can often see that one copy was
19 addressed to the chief, Andrija. So literally one copy, apart from the
20 register and apart from all other chiefs of department, was dedicated for
21 the chief of the centre, and, therefore, I kept it.
22 Secondly, if you follow security information and intelligence
23 concerning paramilitary units and their activities, also one copy was
24 prepared for the chief and very often it was written by hand to be sent
25 to the chief of CSB or to Chief Andrija or they didn't even write
1 anything, but I was entitled to have a copy each and that is how I kept
3 Q. Yes, I am sorry, but again there are two questions. Why did you
4 keep all these documents or selected out of the huge amount of
5 correspondence that went through the CSB?
6 A. I already explained about some of those documents, i.e., the
7 documents that were unlawful or had unlawful contents. Some of them I
8 kept to be used, as I said earlier, for cross-referencing information
9 with military security service. That's why I had them with me. And let
10 me tell you this, I never gave up on the intention that one day I write
11 something about everything that was happening at that time.
12 Q. All right. And the last question on these is: Are you actually
13 allowed to keep copies of all these documents at your home as a serving
14 member of the MUP between 1991 and now?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There's nothing that stops every single member of the MUP taking
17 home and keeping in his home, without any kind of security precautions,
18 internal MUP documents, is that what you are telling the Court?
19 A. Not the way you put it, but one could keep a copy; and when I say
20 one, I meant myself. I didn't take any documents from the official
21 records, but I just kept certain copies for myself.
22 Q. I want to now move from documents in the short time we have left
23 today to deal with the beginnings of your employment with the MUP. You
24 told the Court that you were seven years with the secretariat for
25 national defence in Derventa; that's right, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were then asked by Mr. Zecevic, forgive me, I'm just
3 going to get hold of the transcripts. And this is at page 19417. It was
4 put to you that you started working at the Ministry of the Interior of
5 the socialist republic when, and you said I believe it was in early May
6 or perhaps the end of April, and looking at your notebook May would be --
7 seems to be right. You were asked:
8 "Did you apply for the job? Was there a vacancy announced and
9 how did you get the job?"
10 And you actually didn't answer the first part of the question
11 because you went straight into the procedures about the selection of the
12 three candidates, and so on and so forth.
13 Now, you were asked the same question when you were interviewed,
14 I think, in 2004. The trouble with grey binders is that they all look
15 the same. And this is at page 16 of the first interview which is
16 T-002550. You were asked by Mr. Sabir:
17 "Were you contacted first by this political party, that's SDS,
18 before they nominated you as a candidate?"
19 And you said:
20 "Yes. And the way it was done, there were some who were
21 favourites and there were some who were outsiders."
22 Then you explained it was Mr. Ninkovic, rather than you.
23 And you were asked:
24 "Do you remember when you were contacted by the SDS in order to
25 discuss your candidacy for the position as head of CSB Doboj?"
1 And you said:
2 "I think I was contacted in March or April, and that also was one
3 of the reasons that made me join at least these people, these candidates.
4 At that time deputy minister of the interior, Dr. Zepinic, was a man I
5 knew from before."
6 It's to do with sports:
7 "Q. You discussed your candidacy to the CSB Doboj with
8 Mr. Zepinic?
9 "A. Yes."
10 Is that all correct, Mr. Bjelosevic?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And you then went on to say this, although the officer after the
13 tapes were changed said:
14 "Q. You were describing," and this is at page 17, "that you were
15 contacted in March 1991 by the SDS. Do you remember by whom you were
16 contacted from the SDS?
17 "A. By the late Milovan Bjelosevic, who was my cousin. He was
18 deputy at the National Assembly at that time."
19 So Mr. Bjelosevic, just so we can get this right, who contacted
20 you first, Mr. Bjelosevic and then you discussed it with Mr. Zepinic, or
21 was it the other way around?
22 A. I cannot recall exactly what the order was, but, yes, I talked to
23 both of them.
24 Q. Whether or not you were actually a member, a paid up member of
25 the SDS, were you sympathetic to the aims of the SDS?
1 A. Partly, yes, and I can tell you exactly what it was. In the
2 manifesto, the Serbian Democratic Party made it clear that they would
3 advocate the preservation of Yugoslavia. I believe that to be a crucial
4 part of their programme, and I believe that everyone who was in favour of
5 preserving Yugoslavia was close to my heart. And ultimately I was
6 trained to serve my country and my country was Yugoslavia. And I did
7 everything I could to preserve this country. Yes, I was sympathetic with
8 this particular part of their orientation and programme.
9 Q. Now, you said that you were not the candidate that they wanted.
10 They wanted Mr. Ninkovic who was head of the SDS in Doboj. And you
11 pointed to the letter that was written by the SDS, which I suppose we
12 better have up again. It's ...
13 MR. ZECEVIC: 1D435.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Tab 1A.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes, I made a note.
17 Q. Now, this is dated the 29th of May, 1991, so it's after you've
18 been appointed, and it's addressed to the Municipal Assembly,
19 Executive Boards, Sarajevo MUP, and the chiefs of the public security
20 station and the SDS Main Board. And if we go over the page, we see the
22 A. Yes, it says attach --
23 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'm sorry. We haven't gone over the page on
24 the screen, please. Could we go to the next page, please, on the screen
25 in each, B/C/S and English.
1 Q. There are signatures appearing. First of all, from Derventa,
2 your cousin; is that right?
3 A. Yes, only his signature was forged, the late Milovan did not sign
4 this. I can bring you a paper where you can see his signature, how it
5 actually looks like. But they believe that it would be important to have
6 as many signatures as possible. He was not at this meeting and the late
7 Milovan specifically told me that.
8 Q. Well, did he do anything about it? If his signature was forged,
9 did he write a letter saying my signature has been forged?
10 A. I don't know if he wrote any letter. He only told me that he
11 wasn't at that meeting, and I know his signature so this is not his
13 Q. Well, I mean, you've answered one of the questions I was going to
14 ask you, which is: Why should the man who suggested you take the job
15 sign saying you were the wrong person? The only other question I want to
16 ask you about this is Tesic, the man who signs is Dusan Kuzmanovic. Is
17 that the same Dusan Kuzmanovic who was head of the SJB in Teslic in 1992?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. So, to your knowledge, at least one of the chiefs of the SJBs was
20 a member of the SDS?
21 A. Yes, Kuzmanovic was a member of the SDS. I even believe that for
22 a time he was the president of the Municipal Board or a member of the
23 Municipal Board. But apart from that, I know that he was a member,
24 without doubt.
25 Q. And it's a fact, isn't it, Mr. Bjelosevic, that although
1 technically no member of the MUP should have been a member of a political
2 party once the communists were, as it were, disbanded, not disbanded,
3 that's not the right word, a number of police officers did join the SDS
4 and no doubt the SDA and the SDZ?
5 A. Well, probably. However, I don't recall that there was any ban
6 in that sense at the time, i.e., that anyone was banned from being a
7 member of any political party in 1991.
8 Q. Well, I mean, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm perfectly prepared to accept
9 that my understanding was that police officers were not supposed to be
10 joining political parties in 1990 and 1991, but if you say there was no
11 ban, I'm perfectly prepared to accept that. Now, I want to deal --
12 MS. KORNER: Maybe I don't, because, Your Honours, I'm going to
13 move to something that requires documents.
14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, we are about to take the adjournment
15 for today but we aren't going to rise immediately, so the usher would
16 escort you from the courtroom and we would resume your cross-examination
17 tomorrow morning.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask what shall I do with
19 these documents?
20 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours, in fact, I was going to ask
21 whether Mr. Bjelosevic would be prepared to leave his notebooks with us.
22 What I think we are going to try to do, subject to any difficulties that
23 we are told about, is scan them in colour. At the moment, we've got
24 rather poor copies sometimes in black and white, so Mr. Bjelosevic is
25 prepared to hand them over to us and we'll just scan them, if we can.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bjelosevic, is that a problem?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind. Only I want them
3 back after you are finished.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, they will certainly be returned to him.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may just one minute -- brought
7 something to your attention. Your Honours, you will remember that
8 Mr. Hannis asked for one week to file his complaint on the footnotes of
9 expert witness Bajagic. Now, we discussed over the weekend -- over
10 yesterday, actually, and today, a number of the footnotes that -- or the
11 list of the footnotes that we intend to offer, and we deleted a number of
12 these footnotes and we are still, so to speak, talking, the Defence and
13 the Office of the Prosecutor. However, Your Honours gave the dead-line
14 today, and I would kindly ask, actually, on behalf of Mr. Hannis, but it
15 is joint effort by Defence and the Office of the Prosecutor, that
16 dead-line be extended until tomorrow afternoon. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE HALL. Tomorrow afternoon would be sufficient?
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE HALL: No, I'm asking.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, yes, yes, I'm sure we will be able to deal
21 with that in the afternoon today.
22 JUDGE HALL: So we so extend it. Thank you.
23 On the 10th of May, the Trial Chamber accepted Stevo Pasalic as
24 an expert in demography for the Defence. Stevo Pasalic subsequently
25 testified on the 10th to the 13th of May and the Stanisic Defence has
1 requested admission into evidence of his expert report.
2 On the 13th of May, the Prosecution objected, arguing that the
3 report only addresses Serb population movements and that his testimony
4 has not explained their relevance to the displacement of non-Serbs. It
5 submitted that Stevo Pasalic is "less well acquainted with war influenced
6 migrations of non-Serbs" and that he does not have sufficient knowledge
7 of non-Serb populated areas, and that the report is "essentially a
8 tu quoque report."
9 In response the Stanisic Defence submitted that Stevo Pasalic's
10 report should be considered complementary to that of the Prosecution
11 expert and that the Chamber by having access to both reports would, and I
12 quote, "have a broader basis to rely on."
13 On the 13th of May, the Prosecution also requested that the
14 Chamber reconsider its ruling that Stevo Pasalic be considered an expert
15 in demography, submitting that its cross-examination had raised such
16 serious doubts about his expertise that reconsideration would be
18 The Chamber, recalling the 10th of May ruling was issued in the
19 exercise of its discretion, holds that the Prosecution has not
20 demonstrated a clear error of reasoning or that it would be necessary to
21 reconsider the ruling to prevent an injustice. Accordingly, it reaffirms
22 the 10th of May ruling that Stevo Pasalic is considered to be an expert
23 in demography.
24 Stevo Pasalic's report appears to be confined to analysing the
25 displacement of Serbs, while the present trial is concerned with the
1 alleged deportation and forcible transfer of non-Serbs. Moreover, the
2 methods employed cast doubt on the integrity of some of his conclusions.
3 The Chamber notes the submissions of the Stanisic Defence that
4 Stevo Pasalic's evidence and report are to be considered complementary to
5 the evidence of the Prosecution's demographer. While the Chamber does
6 not necessarily accept this submission, it holds that the report would be
7 of assistance in its analysis of the body of evidence before it. And it
8 will be a matter for the Chamber at the appropriate time to be determined
9 the weight to be given to the report in light of the trial record as a
10 whole. The report is accordingly admitted into evidence.
11 So we take the adjournment -- yes, so it should be assigned an
12 exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be Exhibit 1D541.
14 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
15 And we take the adjournment until tomorrow morning.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of May,
18 2011 at 9.00 a.m.