Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20895

 1                           Thursday, 19 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  May we have the

 9     appearances, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

11     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.  We will be joined by Mr. Demirdjian

12     after the first break.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

17     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  We have -- you were about to say something,

19     Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  I think the same points about whether we could sit

21     an extra session.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I was about to say that we have made the necessary

23     inquiries, and bearing in mind Mr. Zecevic's difficulty as he articulated

24     it yesterday, whereas we, of course, do not presume to say how any team

25     divides up his work, we are surprised that the difficulty as expressed by

Page 20896

 1     Mr. Zecevic should present a great difficulty, probably being redundant,

 2     but -- Mr. Zecevic, the -- why -- all things considered and the support

 3     arrangement being in place, why should the Chamber having heard you

 4     nevertheless not grant the application to the extended sitting?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I just expressed my concerns.

 6     The concerns are that this is just the situation as it is.  The

 7     witness -- the current witness is also my witness and his

 8     cross-examination has been postponed to this period of time and that

 9     was -- and the next witness is again mine, so I need to prepare both of

10     them, but considering all the situation and the request of Ms. Korner and

11     the reasons why she needs to leave on Tuesday, I believe that obviously

12     there is no other way than to have an additional sitting this afternoon

13     and we will make the arrangements necessary to deal with our witness.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

15             MS. KORNER:  I did speak to Mr. Zecevic and I'm very grateful to

16     him for this.  I wouldn't have had to ask had we not lost so much time on

17     Monday.  I worked up my cross-examination based on having a whole Monday

18     to do it and because of the LiveNote and Mr. Krgovic's half an hour which

19     turned into something rather more, but who am I to complain about that,

20     Your Honours, I would be very grateful if we could sit just one extra

21     session this afternoon.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Before we formally rule on that, Ms. Korner, there

23     is a concern that the Chamber has which we think cannot be unexpressed,

24     and we say had with the greatest respect to your experience as counsel

25     and of course to the tactical or strategic methods that you employ in the

Page 20897

 1     conduct of your case, but it does seem to us that such time as is being

 2     used with this witness might be more efficiently used.  Yesterday, for

 3     example, it appears to us that, an a inordinate amount of time was spent

 4     reformulating the same question with the -- to our mind, the predictable

 5     same answer from the witness and the -- we are inclined to -- I think the

 6     arrangements would be that we would sit from 2.30 to 3.45 this afternoon,

 7     but we would, with respect, ask you to bear in mind the concern that

 8     became apparent yesterday.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  The other point of which I've just been reminded is

12     that arithmetically you have 15 hours left which even with the extra

13     session today it doesn't -- we don't see you finishing by -- we don't see

14     this witness being finished by Monday, but it's something again for you

15     to again bear in mind as we go forward.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, out of caution I asked for 20 hours.

17     And out of caution based on -- not unexpectedly because most of the

18     witnesses are like that, the witness is extremely lengthy answers and his

19     attempt, we would suggest, to say the same thing over and over again.

20     But I've taken on board what Your Honours say.  If it has been my

21     impression that my question has not been answered, and Your Honours think

22     it has, well then obviously when one is on one's feet one doesn't get

23     quite the same feel, but I take on board what Your Honours have said.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So if there's nothing else, the usher

25     would please escort the witness back on the stand.

Page 20898

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Before I

 3     invite Ms. Korner to continue her cross-examination, I should alert you

 4     in addition to reminding you you are still on your oath, I should alert

 5     you that you have over your several days here become used to the pattern

 6     of sitting of the -- of this trial, but with a view to completing your

 7     testimony, it has been decided that today there will be an extra sitting,

 8     so when the Court rises at the usual time of 1.45, it will not be for the

 9     day.  We will return at 2.30 and then sit until 3.45.

10             Yes, Ms. Korner.

11                           WITNESS:  ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, I want to just for a moment move away from the

15     topics we were dealing with yesterday and ask you this:  During the

16     period from the outbreak of conflict around March/April until the end of

17     June when the corridor was opened, you in Doboj still had access by road,

18     didn't you, to Banja Luka?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In that case I don't think I need to put up the map.

21             Now, I want very briefly, please, to deal with the one document

22     that yesterday we had a slight problem about and that's the full minutes

23     of the 24th of March Assembly meeting which was held in Pale when

24     Mico Stanisic was elected as minister of the interior.

25             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up, please, P439.  It's tab 11 bis which

Page 20899

 1     was, I think, made clear last night [indiscernible] e-mail.

 2        Q.   And what I was putting to you was that the Doboj Municipal

 3     Assembly was set up, I think, two days later, came about as a result of

 4     effectively instructions -- Mr. Karadzic.  Now, very briefly, did you

 5     ever come across or hear about the instructions commonly known now as

 6     Variant A and B, at the time?

 7        A.   No.  No, I only heard about that being mentioned, but I have

 8     never seen these documents, these instructions that you referred to.

 9        Q.   Did you hear them being mentioned at the time, during the period,

10     sometime between December 1991 and April 1992?

11        A.   No.  No, I heard that later when certain processes started,

12     Variant A and Variant B was being mentioned.  I think it was after the

13     year 2000, if I remember correctly.

14        Q.   Well, I don't want to go into that.

15             MS. KORNER:  Can I ask, however, that we have up on the screen in

16     English page 16 and in the Bosnian version it is page 28.

17        Q.   Can I point out and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, that this is

18     the speech, the first speech made by Dr. Karadzic.  And it's, in fact,

19     the underlined paragraph in your language and it's the third paragraph in

20     the English.

21             Now, we know from the record of this that your cousin

22     Milovan Bjelosevic was present at this Assembly meeting.  Karadzic says:

23             "I now ask you that following some instructions for national

24     defence, information systems, et cetera, that will be given here, the

25     real and sovereign authority of the Serbian Assembly and the Serbian

Page 20900

 1     people be established on the ground as soon as possible.  As soon as we

 2     are informed that we have our own separate MUP, which will probably

 3     follow the coming session, all the newly-established municipalities

 4     should immediately set up police stations and all policemen should be

 5     withdrawn.  Because that is, in fact, what life has taught us.  Our

 6     policemen were forced out of the municipalities of Stari Grad," and I

 7     think from Visegrad as well, "policemen simply do not work together

 8     anymore and this fact must simply be accepted ..."

 9             Now, did you hear about this speech by Dr. Karadzic,

10     Mr. Bjelosevic?

11        A.   No.  What you read out just now what I see on the monitor, no.

12        Q.   But what he was saying that about establishing -- we have to have

13     our own separate MUP and policemen simply do not work together anymore,

14     was he expressing the same view that you have expressed throughout your

15     evidence, namely that the different ethnicities could no longer work

16     together?

17        A.   At the time, people fully worked together in Doboj and in some

18     other stations.  Truth to tell there was mistrust, but people did work

19     together and how.

20        Q.   So you didn't agree with --

21        A.   You said that this was the end of March, right?

22        Q.   This is the 24th of March Assembly.  The one when -- was the

23     election of Mico Stanisic.

24        A.   At the time, it still functioned.  There was polarisation, there

25     was distrust, but the police stations in the area of CSB Doboj were still

Page 20901

 1     one, as it were.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can we quickly please go to the next page both in

 3     English and B/C/S.  And it's the paragraph -- no, sorry.  That's not the

 4     next page in B/C/S.  The next page should be -- it's page 13 in e-court.

 5     Page 30.  That's not page 30, or shouldn't be.  Yes, thank you very much.

 6     And in English, please, to -- yes, that's fine.

 7        Q.   If we look -- if you look at the penultimate paragraph on that

 8     page in B/C/S, and we look, please, at the paragraph at the bottom that

 9     begins:

10             "Newly-established municipalities must establish their organs as

11     soon as possible, have their stamps made and start to work.  The police,

12     that is, our organs must be positioned at the border."

13             Now --

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, the witness doesn't have that on the

15     screen.

16             MS. KORNER:  Isn't that the penultimate ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not that text.

18             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I thought it was.  Yes, sorry, can we go to

19     page 31.  I hope that's it.  Is that it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's page 30.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   Yes, no, forget that, it's a different number in the commuter

23     system.  Does that paragraph at the top say "newly-established

24     municipalities"?  I see Mr. Zecevic nodding.  Do you see that,

25     Mr. Bjelosevic?

Page 20902

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Right.  As we saw a few days later, a couple of days later, I

 3     think, the Serbian municipality of Doboj was declared, wasn't it?

 4        A.   Yes, yesterday you showed it, yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  And, yes, the final part I want to show you because

 6     it's going to lead into --

 7             MS. KORNER:  And that is at page, I think it's 32 in English and

 8     it is at page 39 in B/C/S, I hope.  No.  No.  English, please, is --

 9     should be 00 -- no, 49.  Four pages back please at the top, should be

10     02049 at the top.  Thank you.  Sorry, 2048, I am so sorry, back one more.

11     And the B/C/S, I think that's the right --

12        Q.   Does the paragraph there, second paragraph in B/C/S, and it's the

13     middle paragraph in the English start, "You can be sure that numbers the

14     police are quite sufficient."  It must be "numbers of the police":

15             "I know that the Serbs cannot do what the HOS is doing, to do

16     things which are not based on law.  We have a legal basis in the Law on

17     Internal Affairs.  And we have the insignia and at a desired moment, and

18     this will be very soon, we can form whatever we want."

19             I'm going to skip the next two sentences:

20             "At the moment, all the Serbian municipalities, both the old ones

21     and the newly-established one, would literally assume control of the

22     entire territory of the municipality concerned.  The Zvornik municipality

23     takes control over everything that constitutes the Serbian municipality

24     of Zvornik.  At a given moment, in the next three or four day, there will

25     be a single method used and you will able to apply it in the municipality

Page 20903

 1     you represent, including both things that must be down as well as how it

 2     to do them.  How to separate the police force, take the resources that

 3     belong to the Serbian people and take command.  The police must be under

 4     the control of the civilian authority, it must obey it, there's no

 5     discussion about it, that's the way it must be."

 6             Now, it took longer than the few days Mr. Karadzic spoke about

 7     Mr. Bjelosevic, but it's right, isn't it, in Doboj at the beginning of

 8     May, that's exactly what happened, the police and the army took control

 9     of Doboj town?

10        A.   If you would permit me, I would like to describe the situation.

11     It happened in Doboj between the 2nd and the 3rd of May.  But before

12     that, in March, there was the take-over the public security station by

13     the HOS and other paramilitary formations in Bosanski Brod.  Then there

14     was the take-over of the station in Derventa, then there was the

15     situation in Odzak, and in some areas, some sort of camps had already

16     been established where civilians were detained.  The same thing happened

17     in the Modrica municipality.  So we were facing the situation which for

18     us meant occupation of territory.  Camps had already been set up,

19     population had already been expelled from certain areas, civilian

20     population, and it was only after all of this that the decision was made

21     that at least Doboj should be saved from that, that the same thing should

22     not happen in Doboj.  There were forces that had been trained, equipped,

23     and armed and that were ready to do the same thing in Doboj and that's

24     when this decision was made by the command that Doboj should be taken

25     over, in the military sense.

Page 20904

 1        Q.   I'm reluctant to repeat the question, but you agree that's what

 2     happened, that the police and the army took over Doboj on the 2nd/3rd of

 3     May?

 4        A.   I already said that it happened, and that it did happen pursuant

 5     to the decision of the military command.  I also described the

 6     circumstances and the situation.  All information pointed to the fact

 7     that it was only a difference of a few hours as to who was going to do it

 8     first.

 9        Q.   Yes, and where did that information come from?

10        A.   Well, there was a number of intelligence informations dating back

11     from 1991 to that moment.  They were becoming more and more frequent.

12     And in April 1992, there was lots of activity of the Patriotic League,

13     Green Berets and other forces that were concentrated around Doboj and

14     that already held parts of some settlements.  They were preparing the

15     attack there.  You also saw that some military inspectors came there to

16     perform training.  I've shown you the documents.

17        Q.   Yes, right.  So your answer is this had nothing to do with any

18     instruction or plan conceived by Mr. Karadzic and others as to the

19     creation of the Serbian state?

20        A.   When we talk about the Serbian municipality of Doboj, I am not

21     saying that it has nothing to do with it, but if we talk about what

22     happened between the 2nd and the 3rd of May, I think that it has nothing

23     to do with it.  I really don't think that the commander would yield to

24     some sort of political decisions and positions at that level because the

25     commander was an officer, high-ranking JNA officer, a colonel at the

Page 20905

 1     time.  And as I told you, it was really only a matter of time.  It was

 2     really only a matter of who was going to do it first.

 3        Q.   I hear what you say about that.  Was that Colonel Stankovic you

 4     are talking about?

 5        A.   No, it's Cazim Hadzic.  Stankovic was a major at the time.

 6        Q.   So when did he become a colonel?

 7        A.   I'm not sure whether he ever became a colonel.  If he did, maybe

 8     1994 or 1995.  I wouldn't know.  He remained -- and I think that he

 9     remained a major.  Stankovic was a major at the time.

10        Q.   Before the take-over, did you and Major Stankovic have meetings

11     in your office?

12        A.   I informed Major Stankovic --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I met

14     Major Stankovic on a number of occasions.

15             MS. KORNER:

16        Q.   And was that in order to discuss how to take over the town most

17     efficiently?

18        A.   It wasn't that kind of conversation.  We talked about the general

19     situation.

20        Q.   Were you aware that three days before the take-over of Doboj,

21     Prijedor had been taken over in more or less the same manner, on the

22     30th of April?

23        A.   I don't know the details about that.

24        Q.   Or Sanski Most shortly after the take-over of Doboj, did you know

25     about that?

Page 20906

 1        A.   No, we had a problem after the 3rd of May.  We had a problem with

 2     the electricity and with the media, the function of the media, so during

 3     a certain period of time, I didn't know what was going on.  The radio,

 4     the local radio did not work for a period of time.  It was on or off, and

 5     I really didn't know what was going on.

 6        Q.   We can leave that document now.  Can I just take you through the

 7     final documents that deal with the setting up of the Serbian MUP which

 8     you weren't asked about before.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Could we have a look, please, at P353, tab 12A.

10        Q.   This is a telegram from Mr. Mandic dated the 31st of 1992 sent to

11     all CSB heads and talking about the session on the 27th of March, the

12     constitution had been proclaimed, the laws were adopted on internal

13     affairs and then, setting out at the bottom of that first paragraph, what

14     are going to be the Security Services Centre: Banja Luka, Trebinje,

15     Doboj, Sarajevo, and at that stage Ugljevik.  Did you get that telegram

16     from Mr. Mandic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And what he says further on is that:

19             "The Ministry of the Interior shall establish Security Services

20     Centres at subordinate units.  On the day when this law enters into

21     force, the MUP Security Service Centres and public stations.  Socialist

22     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina ..."

23             MS. KORNER:  Next page please, in English.  I think we need to go

24     down the page a bit in the B/C/S version.  We've now got two English.

25     Thank you.

Page 20907

 1        Q.   "... shall cease work on the territory of the Serbian Republic,

 2     while their jurisdiction and the duties of Internal Affairs organs shall

 3     be assumed by the organisational units of the MUP of the Serbian Republic

 4     of the BH.  On the day that this law enters into force," et cetera

 5     et cetera, and then finally, "inform all employees of the SRBH MUP, with

 6     the content of the dispatch in a prompt and objective manner in order to

 7     avoid disruptive and undesirable situations."

 8             Now, did you understand that, Mr. Bjelosevic, to say that was

 9     effectively the end of the joint MUP?  There was now a separate MUP for

10     the Serbian Republic?

11        A.   That is not how I understood it.

12        Q.   How did you understand that then?  Let's take the actual words.

13     How did you understand the words, on the day when this law enters into

14     force, the MUP security centres and public security stations of the

15     socialist republic shall cease work on the territory of the Serbian

16     Republic?

17        A.   You didn't understand me when I said that I didn't understand it

18     that way.  Of course, I read what it says here and it's quite clear what

19     it says here, but you should try to understand the situation in which the

20     Doboj CSB and I, as its chief, found ourselves.  You should try to

21     understand the general situation.  I had to think with my own head at the

22     time.  I had to figure out what it meant, and I also had to figure out

23     what exactly was the situation that we were facing.  As you had a chance

24     to see, throughout April we functioned as part of the MUP of the

25     Socialist Republic of BiH and we used the communications as long as they

Page 20908

 1     functioned.

 2             So when I said that that was not my understanding, I didn't think

 3     that that was something realistic and that it was something that should

 4     have been done at the time.  Our management structure was, well, what it

 5     was, and in the centre itself it functioned quite well.  It is true that

 6     in the field the situation was rather complex and difficult, especially

 7     when it comes to Bosanski Brod and Odzak.  Brod had been separated by

 8     then, and we were trying to do everything we could in order to keep the

 9     system of security stable.

10        Q.   That's two different things.  I'm not asking you what you did,

11     and I accept what you did.  I asked whether it was clear to you that that

12     was the end of a joint MUP, that there were to be two separate MUPs from

13     what Mr. Mandic's telegram said?  Not what you did, we'll come on to what

14     you did.

15        A.   It's quite clear what it says here, but I also have to tell you

16     that after this dispatch, there was a series of dispatches.  Yes, it was

17     agreed and there was a collegium with the minister, Mr. Delimustafic,

18     then there was denial that it didn't take place.  So the situation was

19     quite -- quite confusing.  So at that moment it wasn't really possible to

20     come to the clear conclusion that that was the end of it.  Something was

21     going on, something was possible, but --

22        Q.   Believe you me, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm not going to ignore what then

23     happened.  You will go through those documents very clearly.  But that

24     instruction on its face, can we just -- could you just answer this yes or

25     no, clearly was the signal and was the end of a joint MUP if that

Page 20909

 1     instruction was followed?  That's all I've asked.

 2        A.   Yes, if you look at this document in isolation, then, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, before you got the telegram sometime between the meeting in

 4     February in Banja Luka and this telegram from Mr. Mandic, had you

 5     attended a meeting in Sarajevo with other senior members of the Serbian

 6     MUP?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   In which you had attended with other members of the MUP from

 9     Doboj?  Anything like that ever happen?  Any kind of meeting in Sarajevo?

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think the witness just answered no.

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   I said -- but I'm changing slightly, the question was other

13     senior members of the MUP, so I'm asking any kind of meeting in Sarajevo?

14        A.   During February and March, if I remember that well, I think that

15     I did go to Sarajevo to the headquarters of the MUP.  That was the

16     Borisa Kovacevica at the time.

17        Q.   Right.  And who did you see there, did you see Mr. Stanisic?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Or Mr. Mandic?

20        A.   It's possible that I met Mr. Mandic because we had a number of

21     problems related to crime in the area of the Doboj centre, so I often

22     communicated with him related to this issue.  And also with Amir Mladic,

23     he was the chief of the narcotics bureau.  I think that that was his

24     name.

25        Q.   So did you attend -- sorry, when you saw Mr. Mandic, were there

Page 20910

 1     other senior members of the Serbian joint MUP, Socialist Republic MUP,

 2     present at the meeting?

 3        A.   It's difficult for me to remember the names, but certainly

 4     somebody was there.  And if I'm not mistaken, I think that there was

 5     Dazdarevic, I don't remember his first name.  He was the chief of the

 6     crime prevention administration while Momcilo Mandic was assistant

 7     minister, so the two of them communicated often.  I also used to go to

 8     the police department at the same time and I talked to some of the

 9     inspectors and the chief there.

10        Q.   Was Mr. Zupljanin there at any meeting in Sarajevo?

11        A.   You mean us together in the MUP, I can't remember anything like

12     that.

13        Q.   Because there's no mystery to all of this, Mr. Bjelosevic.

14     Mr. Zupljanin, when he spoke at the meeting in Belgrade in July, which

15     you went to and which you have got notes, says it seems a long time since

16     we met in Sarajevo.  So can you give us an idea of when you had a meeting

17     in Sarajevo?

18        A.   I don't remember that we met in Sarajevo under such

19     circumstances.  I really don't remember that.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up, please, on the screen, the document

22     which is 20002.  Seems somewhat improbable, but it's tab 12.

23        Q.   Now, same day as Mr. Mandic's telegram:

24             "We hereby inform you that a meeting will be held at 1100 hours

25     on the 1st of April at Doboj CSB at which the current security situation

Page 20911

 1     and upcoming tasks will be discussed."

 2             I take it, Mr. Bjelosevic, that that meeting was as a direct

 3     result of Mr. Mandic's order that all employees should be informed of the

 4     contents of his dispatch; is that right?

 5        A.   No.  This has absolutely nothing to do with that dispatch.  This

 6     is a working meeting of the police station commanders convened by

 7     Vojo Blagojevic who was chief of the police in the centre.  So it was

 8     something that had nothing to do with it.  Something quite separate.

 9        Q.   All right.  You were asking the SJB chiefs or the SJB to the SJBs

10     for all those places to come to a meeting, and it was a sheer coincidence

11     that it was the same day that the new Law of Internal Affairs was coming

12     into effect and Mr. Mandic had ordered you to tell everybody about it.

13     Sheer coincidence, is that what you are saying?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I believe the witness said that -- gave

15     the name of the person who convened the meeting.  And, Ms. Korner, on

16     page 17/3, you were asking -- if we can have the base on that, for that

17     question.  She said to the witness, you were asking the SJB chiefs to

18     come to a meeting, and the witness explained who convened the meeting.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   Sorry, if the meeting had nothing to do, Mr. Bjelosevic, with

21     anything that was happening as a result of Mr. Mandic's telegram and this

22     was a standard meeting that Mr. -- Mr. -- what you said his name was --

23     the gentleman who signed on your behalf, why did it go out under your

24     name?

25        A.   Well, when something was sent on behalf of the CSB, the name of

Page 20912

 1     the chief of the centre had to be written at the bottom, as a rule.  But

 2     also chief departments in accordance with their own lines of work, in

 3     this particular case we are dealing with line 01, police, they also

 4     worked and held meetings with their subordinates in their hierarchy.

 5     This has to do with Vojo Blagojevic, chief of police in that period, and

 6     he is inviting the commanders of police stations to a working meeting.

 7     If I was the one inviting them, it isn't logical that I would be inviting

 8     the station chiefs.  So it wasn't me.  It was the chief of the police

 9     department who did that in accordance with the line of work of the

10     police.  He invited them to a working meeting and this is something quite

11     ordinary.  Now, the fact that there is a coincidence about the date, you

12     have to believe me that it had really absolutely nothing to do with that.

13     You can be absolutely certain about that.

14        Q.   All right, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Did you ever hold a meeting at the

15     CSB with the personnel from the SJBs under the Doboj CSB to tell them

16     what was happening about Mr. Mandic's telegram?

17        A.   No, I never held such a meeting.

18        Q.   So it would be totally wrong to suggest to you that you did hold

19     such a meeting, you told the police officers that there was going to be

20     this divided MUP and that the CSB Doboj would now be under the

21     Serbian Republic, that the non-Serb police walked out, and, thereafter,

22     the police were divided on ethnic lines in Doboj.  Nothing like that ever

23     happened?

24        A.   That kind of meeting with that kind of agenda, that kind of

25     topic, no, I never held a meeting like that.

Page 20913

 1        Q.   Let's just move, then, if we may speedily through the remainder

 2     of the documents that dealt with this period.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Have a look, please, next at tab 14 which is ...

 4     Sorry, Your Honours, I've just lost my note for a moment.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, Your Honours, perhaps it needs to be

 6     clarified 17, 24, 25, it is recorded as:

 7             "If I was the one inviting them, it isn't logical that I would be

 8     inviting the station chiefs."

 9             I believe the witness said something else.  Perhaps this can be

10     clarified with the witness for the purposes of clear record, please.

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   Yes, Mr. Bjelosevic, can you just tell us again what you said

13     about --

14        A.   I was explaining what it was about.  The police chief in

15     accordance with his line of work invited --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone off, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Invited the commanders of police

18     station.  And I said if I was the one sending out the invitation, it

19     would be logical.  So I didn't sign the dispatch and I didn't invite

20     anybody.  It was Vojo Blagojevic who invited the commanders.  That's what

21     I wanted to explain.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, the interpreters didn't hear the part of the

23     witness's answer, so if I can kindly ask the witness to speak slowly into

24     the microphone and then we have a clear answer because we are losing time

25     like this.

Page 20914

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   Can we ask -- Mr. Bjelosevic, can you just repeat your answer but

 3     please, please, please, try and keep your answers short.

 4        A.   I will try to be as brief as possible.  I was explaining the

 5     dispatch which you claimed had do with Momcilo Mandic's dispatch, and my

 6     point was that the two didn't have anything to do one with another.  So I

 7     explained who the signature belonged to that we can see in the dispatch

 8     that was sent to -- from the CSB Doboj out into the field.  I said that

 9     it was Mr. Vojo Blagojevic who signed the dispatch.  He was chief of the

10     police department in the CSB Doboj at the time.  As can be seen in the

11     dispatch, he invited commanders of police stations within the area of the

12     CSB Doboj to attend the meeting and I made a comparison.  I said, had I

13     been the one inviting them, would it not have been logical that I would

14     have invited chiefs of stations, but this isn't my signature nor are the

15     chiefs of stations invited, rather, it was the way I explained it.

16             MS. KORNER:  Are you happy now, Mr. Zecevic?

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Bjelosevic, I would be interested to know if

18     you attended the meeting which had been called by Mr. Blagojevic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.  It was within

20     their line of work and that was the nature of the meeting.  That was why

21     he called the commanders so it was only one part of the service that was

22     supposed to meet and it was standard practice.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Were you informed of the agenda of

24     Mr. Blagojevic's meeting?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see it in the dispatch.

Page 20915

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Bjelosevic, just to make it absolutely clear,

 3     when you said he invited chief of police, the chiefs of police, that is

 4     chief of police as opposed to chiefs of station; is that right?  That's

 5     how I understand the transcript, that you make a difference between

 6     chiefs of police and they were the persons Mr., whatever his name is,

 7     Blagojevic, invited, and you said would I have invited people, then I

 8     would have invited the chief of station, the chiefs of station; is that

 9     correct in the transcript?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously wishing to be as clear as

11     possible, I quite unfortunately inserted this hypothesis about me and the

12     chiefs of stations, and I have this feeling that I should perhaps give

13     you the structure again and how it worked.  There were public security

14     stations within the area which had their chiefs, and these chiefs were

15     directly subordinated to the chiefs of centres.  So, my aside was an

16     unfortunate one.

17             In terms of the line of the work the police stations, which were

18     part of public security stations, were uniformed police.  At the time it

19     was called milicija, and Mr. Blagojevic was their direct superior and

20     would invite them to working meetings which had to do with their line of

21     work, i.e., the line of work of uniformed police.  And this is what the

22     meeting had to do with.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Could we have up on the screen, please,

25     document 1D00136, tab 12B.

Page 20916

 1        Q.   Now, this is actually the radio version of -- it was apparently

 2     sent to Radio Sarajevo on the same day, 31st of March, but also sent to

 3     the CSB chief and it's the response by Mr. Delimustafic to Mr. Mandic's

 4     telegram.  Did you get that as well?

 5        A.   I think I did receive it.  As I'm reading it, I think it is one

 6     of the dispatches I referred to as having arrived one after another.

 7        Q.   Well, wasn't it shown to you by Mr. Zecevic when he showed you

 8     all the documents?

 9        A.   I don't know, but I'm reading it through to be sure of what I'm

10     telling you.  Yes, we did receive the dispatch, whether it was on the

11     same day or on the following day, but they arrived one after another.

12        Q.   Urging everybody to ignore Mr. Mandic's attempt, as it was put,

13     to divide the MUP, do you agree with that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And as you pointed out when you were giving evidence to

16     Mr. Zecevic, for the next month until the 2nd/3rd of May, you did in fact

17     report, didn't you, to both MUPs, the socialist republic and also to the

18     RS?  That's right, isn't it, Mr. Bjelosevic?

19        A.   Either not everything was interpreted to me or what was it that I

20     didn't put into the report that I sent to the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     and the Serbian Republic?

22        Q.   I will rephrase the question.  No, I won't.  I'll ask the same

23     question again very slowly.  During the next month, that is of April,

24     until the take-over on the 2nd/3rd of May, you as chief of the Doboj CSB

25     reported to both the old BiH MUP, headed by Alija Delimustafic, and the

Page 20917

 1     Serbian Republic MUP, headed by Mico Stanisic?

 2        A.   Now the question is clear.  Thank you.  Until the end of April,

 3     reports were sent to the Ministry of the SRBiH.  If I remember correctly,

 4     in the second half of April, two reports were sent -- or, rather, after

 5     the 16th of April, after the events in Derventa and at Cardak, a report

 6     was also sent to the Ministry of the Serbian Republic of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Right.  The answer to my question is yes; is that right?  You did

 9     report both to BiH MUP, the old one, and to the RS?

10        A.   Well, after the 16th of April, after the events at Cardak, as I

11     said.

12        Q.   It was at that period that according to you, you stopped taking

13     notes in your notebook of whom you met, the meetings you attended; is

14     that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I don't know whether this expression translates into Serbian,

17     I'll try to find out, but do you know an expression such as someone who

18     tries to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds?  I don't know if it

19     translates at all into the Serbian language.  In other words, that a man

20     cannot serve two masters?  Is that an expression you are familiar with,

21     Mr. Bjelosevic?

22        A.   That you can't serve two masters; is that right?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   Well, Your Honours, allow me to express my dissatisfaction with

25     the way the honourable Prosecutor is treating me.  On Monday, although in

Page 20918

 1     a somewhat embellished form, she said that I was lying.  If you translate

 2     what she said, it means that I was lying, and what Mr. Stanisic and I

 3     were doing at the time was just a screen, it was just a front that we

 4     were window dressing and suppressing things.  Yesterday, she was

 5     undermining my intelligence, and I think that that is quite irrelevant as

 6     to whether the witness is intelligent or not for his evidence.  So I

 7     would like my dignity to be respected here.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, please rest assured that it is a

 9     part of the duty of the Trial Chamber to ensure that witnesses are

10     treated fairly.  But in terms of these proceedings, it is the duty of

11     counsel without, to use your words, disrespecting the intelligence of a

12     witness, to probe and test a witness's evidence, particularly in

13     cross-examination, and that is all that Ms. Korner is doing.  If she

14     crosses over the line, the Chamber would remind her of that, but so far I

15     haven't heard anything which is offensive and which you -- which is an

16     improper question.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, what you were trying to do for that first month

19     was to serve two masters, I suggest to you, because you weren't sure at

20     that stage what was going to happen, which was going to be the right

21     side?

22        A.   I wouldn't agree with that.  In that period of time, I invested

23     to all my efforts to maintain the situation stable and to preserve peace,

24     and you can call it whatever you like.  I had by that time occasion to

25     see what happened in the areas caught by war.  I saw what happened to the

Page 20919

 1     victims and refugees and all the evil that comes with the war, and I

 2     wanted to preserve a state of peace.

 3        Q.   But, Mr. Bjelosevic, how could you possibly remain with one foot

 4     in the old MUP and one foot in a MUP which on your own assessment from

 5     Mr. Mandic's telegram and from what happened thereafter was a totally

 6     separate police organisation?

 7        A.   In that case, allow me to give you a broader answer to that.  In

 8     some of your questions you seem to be proceeding from a view that at the

 9     time Bosnia-Herzegovina was an isolated and independent state, and that

10     somebody tried to forcibly separate from that state.  This wasn't true.

11     Yugoslavia was still in place at the time.  There had been hostilities in

12     Croatia by that time, and it was already obvious what war meant.

13     Pragmatic solutions were sought to preserve peace.  At the time

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina was politically divided.

15             At that time in April, Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have all of its

16     legitimate representatives starting from the Presidency to the Assembly

17     to the government.  All of these were already divided.  Try and picture

18     yourself in such a situation where you are in charge of a service under

19     those circumstances surrounded by a large presence of the military,

20     paramilitary, and, if you will, rogue groups, et cetera.  I don't see

21     that there is anything bad in the practice of informing both parts of

22     what were the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  To me, they were

23     legitimate and legal.  Both Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and Mr. Koljevic, as

24     well as Madam Biljana Plavsic, Mr. Boras and all the members of the

25     Presidency, all the deputies who were lawfully elected in 1990, all of

Page 20920

 1     them were, to my mind, lawful representatives.

 2             I'm telling you this to understand my position.  When you say

 3     that I'm keeping my feet in different positions, let me tell you that I

 4     didn't want to side with politics in 1997 and the same applied to 1992.

 5     I don't know if you now understand my position.

 6        Q.   All right.  Just one final question and then it's time for the

 7     break.  In your mind, is this what you are saying, the declaration of the

 8     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the constitution of the

 9     Serbian Republic, the passing of the Law of Internal Affairs, that had

10     absolutely no effect on legitimacy of the Bosnian -- the old

11     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Is that what you are saying?

12        A.   I'm not talking about the legitimacy of the old Republic of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as you put it.  I'm talking about the legitimacy of

14     the Presidency members, the legitimacy of the Assembly men, the deputies,

15     and the legitimacy of the ministers who were members of the government

16     and who subsequently were divided.  The legitimacy conferred upon them by

17     the peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina had not been taken away from them in

18     the meantime.  That's what I'm talking about.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, you can it's time for the break.  I'm

20     not going to pursue this any further.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Bjelosevic, one follow-up question:  So you

22     were reporting to both MUPs, let's say, during the second half of April,

23     and then at the end of April or at the beginning of May, you stopped

24     reporting to the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP.  What triggered that decision in

25     your mind?  There must have been something that made you decide not to

Page 20921

 1     report anymore to the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP.  What was it that made you

 2     take that decision?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What happens was that all the links

 4     and communications were severed, and between the end of April, up until

 5     the period when the communications were up and running, no reports were

 6     sent out, and then in early May --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In late May.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The centre basically closed down,

 9     as I said.  And then it was practically non-existent until sometime in

10     July when it was reinstated.  So there was a period of some two months or

11     two and a half months when the centre was non-existent and when no

12     reports were sent out.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So then what you are saying then is that the

14     decision not to send reports to the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP has been taken

15     in July when things started working again?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't a decision on my part to

17     discontinue communications, it was force majeure.  And the same went for

18     the CSB and its closing down.  The fact of the matter was that we didn't

19     have a territory to speak of, we didn't have the personnel, and the

20     centre, as such, didn't exist.  You didn't have the police department or

21     the crime police, personnel service, law affairs.  In other words, the

22     centre, as such, wasn't there.  It didn't function.  Later on when the

23     communications system was restored as you said in July, everyone

24     established their own communication system in their respective areas of

25     responsibility.

Page 20922

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Are you saying now that the fact that you stopped

 2     reporting to the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP and only reported to the Serbian

 3     MUP anymore, to the Republic of Serbia MUP was only something that had to

 4     do with communication lines?  Are you saying that if you would have had

 5     communication lines with the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP, you would have

 6     continued to report to them, even in July and afterwards?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what would have

 8     happened.  It's a hypothesis.  But I know what happened and that's what

 9     I'm describing.  The communications system was non-existent.  Every side

10     had by that time taken up their respective areas militarily.  And as for

11     the centre itself, I think I've already explained in detail how the

12     matters stood, and if need be I can repeat.  It was the state of affairs

13     as it existed in the field, as it developed.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, again there is -- I can see that

15     there is confusion, but that is because a part of his answer was not

16     recorded and it's not in the -- it's not in the record, in transcript.

17     And it obviously was not translated to you.  Perhaps after the break I

18     can explain what it is before the witness is brought in and then you

19     can --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- verify that with the witness.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the break and resume in 20 minutes.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

Page 20923

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, this morning when we were speaking

 2     about the time that was used by the OTP, there was a little error in the

 3     calculations.  It seems to be something more than seven hours, rather

 4     than five but you realise that.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I did, Your Honours.  In any event, not just

 6     for the reasons that I've expressed, I would be concluding my

 7     cross-examination well within the 20 hours, of course subject to what I

 8     put answering the questions shortly.  But, Your Honours, I know

 9     Mr. Zecevic wants to address you before he comes in on what was or was

10     not said, but there is one point that I should have dealt with earlier

11     this morning.  When Your Honour Judge Delvoie yesterday asked me about

12     exhibiting documents, of course I just had the intercepts in mind, which

13     I didn't intend, but I forgot I also put to him his diary entry and I

14     would like, obviously, to exhibit that.  It's the diary entry for the

15     10th of February.  65 ter 20103.01.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  No objection, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P02323.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am wondering if -- because Ms. Korner showed to

20     the witness also the entry on the 11th of February.

21             MS. KORNER:  No, I didn't.  Mr. Krgovic did, but I'm perfectly

22     happy for that also to be exhibited as well.  I see, the 10th and the

23     11th run together, it's one document.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's why I was just making sure that it's one

25     document, yes.  Thank you.

Page 20924

 1             May I, Your Honours?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just before the break His Honour

 4     Judge Delvoie was posing a couple of questions to the witness.  However,

 5     the witness answered that due to the severance of the communication lines

 6     between the -- at the end of April or beginning of May, he wasn't sending

 7     any reports either to BiH MUP, the SR BiH MUP or MUP of Republika Srpska,

 8     so no reports to either of the MUPs were sent, and that part wasn't

 9     recorded in the transcript.  I don't know if it was translated because I

10     didn't have my earphones on.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Perhaps it isn't explicitly in the transcript,

12     but that's how I understood it.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Well, I'm sorry, I just wanted to be of

14     assistance.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, on the documents again, this morning

16     you showed the document under tab number 12.  Do I take it you don't

17     tender it?

18             MS. KORNER:  I do tender it.  Your Honours, for some reason I

19     thought this has always been an exhibit but hasn't, and I would like to

20     have that made an exhibit as well.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I correctly remember, this is the 1st of April,

22     the meeting.

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I think I offered it as exhibit and actually

25     was asked by the Trial Chamber what is the relevance and then Ms. Korner

Page 20925

 1     said that she is not objected and I think it was admitted, but I have to

 2     check.  I think it was admitted as Defence document already during the

 3     direct examination of this witness.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, I thought so too but if we are both --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  During the direct?

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Under 65 ter number 2002?

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, I don't think so.  I think we uploaded the

 9     document as our -- but I will have to check, Your Honours, and come back

10     to you about it.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while we are waiting we'll just check.

13     Mr. Smith thinks --

14             JUDGE HALL:  So we can have the witness back in now, can we?

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, it was exhibited as 1D455 and I do

19     remember I said, for the reasons that we can all see, that I didn't

20     object.

21             Had Your Honour finished asking questions?

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, thank you.

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, just came up on the screen before but just let's

25     confirm, please, which is --

Page 20926

 1             MS. KORNER:  Could I have up, please, Exhibit P1410, tab 14.

 2        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, that's your appointment, isn't it, as the -- for

 3     the moment temporary chief of CSB Doboj in the Ministry of the

 4     Internal Affairs of the Serbian Republic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And were you -- did you get a copy of that?

 7        A.   Yes, you can see at the top of the page that it was sent on the

 8     19th of April.

 9        Q.   Was it at that stage that you decided that you would go with the

10     RS MUP?

11        A.   I think I already answered that question but I'll repeat it.

12        Q.   No, all right.  Don't, please.  During the course of April, did

13     you set up police stations in, first of all, a place called Kalenderovci

14     in the Derventa municipality?

15        A.   No.  The war time schedule envisaged a war police station there,

16     and at that place they assembled both the war police and the personnel

17     that had left the police station in Derventa.  That's when they joined

18     this station that had been envisaged by the war organisational chart.

19        Q.   Whether it was envisaged or not, was it you who were responsible

20     for the establishment of that war police station?

21             MS. KORNER:  And I hope Your Honours won't think that I'm

22     unnecessarily repeating the question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to underline that this had

24     been envisaged by the war time organisational chart and that particular

25     police station had been mobilised and fully functioning.  And during the

Page 20927

 1     events that took place in and around Derventa, the personnel from the

 2     public security station in Derventa joined that station and the station

 3     goals in Osinja.  They are all the stations envisaged by the plan and

 4     they existed.  They had the personnel.  Everything had already been set

 5     up.

 6        Q.   Did you issue the necessary orders and instructions for the

 7     establishment of this police station envisaged by a war plan?

 8        A.   That had been done much earlier, before I was appointed the chief

 9     of the CSB in Doboj.

10        Q.   Did that police station start operating in April?

11        A.   I think it was even before.  When all the war police station were

12     mobilised, when the reserve forces were mobilised, that's when that

13     station began working.

14        Q.   Was that station entirely staffed by Serb members of the MUP or

15     reserve MUP?

16        A.   That is one of many stations and it's difficult for me to

17     remember that now.  But if I'm not mistaken whether it was Mehmedovic or

18     Subasic I remember that there was a Muslim in the reserve police.  I

19     remember that because of the name.  And as for the rest of the personnel,

20     I really don't know.  It was just one of the many reserve police stations

21     in the territory of the Doboj CSB.

22        Q.   Did you also in April form or put into operation a police station

23     at a place called Osinja also in the Derventa municipality?

24        A.   No.  I did not form that one.  It had also been envisaged by the

25     previously-established plan about the organisation and systemisation of

Page 20928

 1     the reserve police stations.

 2        Q.   During April, was that police station brought into full operation

 3     by you?

 4        A.   It had become operative even before, as far as I can remember,

 5     when all other stations became operative.  And I have to underline that

 6     the order about the mobilisation of the reserve police stations was

 7     issued by the MUP of the RS BiH -- SR BiH.

 8        Q.   I understand that, the Socialist Republic as opposed to the

 9     Serb Republic.  In April, was that police station entirely manned by Serb

10     members of the MUP or reserve MUP?

11        A.   I don't know but because Osinja and the neighbouring villages are

12     inhabited only by Serbs, I assume that probably the manpower was also of

13     Serb ethnicity.  That's my assumption.

14        Q.   Now, I won't go over with you a few matters concerning the

15     Law on Internal Affairs.  Before we do that, when you were giving

16     evidence in response to questions by Mr. Zecevic, you were shown a

17     document which is the Defence document tab 36.  I'll give you a number in

18     a minute, but you can turn it up if you've still got your bundle.  It had

19     the number, I think, 1D004779.  I think it's now an exhibit.

20        A.   Did you say tab 36?

21        Q.   I did.  It's document 8th of April, 1992.

22             MS. KORNER:  It's 1D257.  Thank you.

23        Q.   And you told Mr. Zecevic at page 19549 that you were familiar

24     with this dispatch, it comes from the department from defence

25     preparations:

Page 20929

 1             "Another flagrant example of the violation of the basic laws and

 2     regulations governing Internal Affairs ... inconceivable and incompatible

 3     with all rules and regulations in force at the time that

 4     Territorial Defence units should be subordinated to the police stations

 5     contrary to all republican and federal regulations."

 6             Now, do I take it from that that you are familiar with republican

 7     and federal regulation, Mr. Bjelosevic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Right.  I would like you, please --

10             MS. KORNER:  Or I would like to have up on the screen, it's the

11     document at tab 1A and it's L0026.  It's part of the law library,

12     Your Honours.  I'll find my own copy of it.  We have Article --

13     Your Honours, I'm so sorry, I keep doing this.  We moved the document at

14     the break and now I can't find it again.  Yes.  It's page 12 in English

15     and page 16 in B/C/S.

16        Q.   Now, this deals -- these articles of the law on -- law on

17     something.  All People's Defence.  Thank you.  Dealing with the

18     Territorial Defence.  Article 105 says it's the widest form of organised

19     All People's armed Defence.  Article 106 describes what the

20     Territorial Defence is about.  And then Article 107, please, is that the

21     whole page, probably is.  All right:

22             "The Presidency of the Socialist Republic pursuant to a decision

23     of the Presidency of the SFRY under Article 5 of the federal law, shall

24     order the use of the Territorial Defence units to carry out tasks of

25     public peace and order and to carry out other tasks of social

Page 20930

 1     self-protection."

 2             Next part:

 3             "The Territorial Defence units shall be subordinated to the

 4     interior affairs organ in charge whilst performing duties and tasks from

 5     Article 105.1 of the federal law."

 6             Were you familiar with that provision, Mr. Bjelosevic?

 7        A.   Article 105 of the federal law is referenced here.

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   And we are looking at the republican law.

10        Q.   Yes.  Appreciating that there are all sorts of preconditions and

11     there are other laws involved, I'm asking you in the light of your

12     assertions to Mr. Zecevic the other day, that this was a completely and

13     utterly illegal order, whether you were familiar with the provisions of

14     this law that in certain circumstances the Territorial Defence could be

15     subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior?

16        A.   But we should take a look here about the particular

17     circumstances, what exactly is stipulated by Article 105.  That's one

18     thing.  And the other thing, here we see that the Presidency of the

19     SR BiH is mentioned, the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, pursuant to a decision of the Presidency of the SFRY,

21     et cetera, and here we have an order that was not issued by the

22     Presidency of the SR BiH.  If you find that particular dispatch, you will

23     see that it wasn't the order issued by the Presidency but that it was a

24     decision made by the government.

25        Q.   Yes.  Mr. Bjelosevic, all that I'm asking you at this moment is

Page 20931

 1     whether you were familiar with this provision, leaving aside its bringing

 2     into effect in this day, did you know about this provision?

 3        A.   Yes, I did know about this provision.

 4        Q.   So you don't know, do you, whether this particular dispatch being

 5     signed by Mr. Pusina, I think it was, wasn't it?  Sorry, I better get it

 6     out again.  Yes.  You don't know on the 8th of April from this dispatch

 7     whether or not the required steps had been gone through?

 8        A.   I'm not quite sure what kind of required steps you are referring

 9     to.

10        Q.   Whatever steps were required to bring this legal -- this law into

11     effect, you don't know whether or not when Mr. -- sorry, Mr. Jasarevic

12     sent out this dispatch, whether or not the legal requirements had been

13     complied with?

14        A.   The conditions stipulated by the law were not met.  There was no

15     order issued by the Presidency, and secondly, volunteers as a category --

16     and take a look at the dispatch at its last line, I mean, it's even more

17     open here.  It says here "volunteers or other military conscripts

18     subordinated to the SJB," so anybody can walk in and say, Hello, I'm

19     going to be a member of the police.  This has absolutely no foundations

20     and I definitely -- I still claim that this is unlawful.  There are at

21     least two reasons for that.

22        Q.   All I'm concerned about is the assertion that you made:  It is

23     inconceivable and incompatible with all the rules and regulations in

24     force at the time that Territorial Defence units should be subordinated

25     to police stations.

Page 20932

 1             Would you agree that was an exaggerated statement in the light of

 2     this?

 3        A.   We would have to take a look at the federal laws and make a

 4     connection between the federal and republican laws if we were to obtain a

 5     proper and correct answer to this question.  What comprised the armed

 6     forces of Yugoslavia?  At the top of the pyramid there was one unified

 7     command and that was the Supreme Command.

 8        Q.   No, I am going to stop you, Mr. Bjelosevic.  I agree we've spent

 9     a long time talking about how these laws came into effect.  All I'm

10     asking you is whether you accept what you said earlier was an exaggerated

11     statement of the position?  If you don't accept that, you can simply say,

12     No, I don't accept it.

13        A.   I don't agree.  I still claim that this is unlawful.

14        Q.   All right.  That's all I was asking.  Can we look, please, for a

15     little bit at the Law on Internal Affairs that was passed.

16             MS. KORNER:  That will be, please, it's P530 and we put it in at

17     tab 10A.

18        Q.   The law was actually passed on the 28th of February, published in

19     the Gazette, as we can see, on the 23rd of March, 1992, and came into

20     effect, I think it was seven days later.  Yes, the 30th of March.

21             Now, you were familiar with the old BiH law, weren't you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in most respects this law promulgated by the Serbian Assembly

24     of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the same although there were some differences?

25        A.   Yes, it is quite similar, yes.

Page 20933

 1        Q.   And in Article 5, the minister is in charge of Internal Affairs

 2     listed in Article 3 which are the tasks and activities related to public

 3     security, national security, and then identity cards and all the rest of

 4     it.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that article.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Ms. Korner, the question was:

 8             "In Article 5, the minister is in charge ..."

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  But the reading of the Article 5 says "the

11     ministry," not "the minister."

12             MS. KORNER:  All right.  I accept the correction.

13        Q.   Do you see that in front of you?

14        A.   Yes, I do now.

15        Q.   Right.  The minister of the interior was the head of the

16     ministry; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The hierarchy of the Ministry of Internal Affairs was the

19     minister, under that, if there was one, a deputy minister - there wasn't

20     in this case - the assistant ministers, the chiefs of the CSBs and the

21     heads of the SJB.  That was the hierarchy, wasn't it?

22        A.   Yes, also the heads of department at headquarters.  You omitted

23     that.  But that was it.  Basically that is the structure involved.

24        Q.   And the reporting system through the hierarchy was strictly

25     enforced, wasn't it?

Page 20934

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   Because that's one of the complaints that you made that your

 3     level of -- in the hierarchy as CSB chief was being ignored by chiefs of

 4     SJB stations, some of them who would report directly up to the ministry?

 5        A.   Yes, they came to the centre as they carried out that activity of

 6     theirs.  We said what the stations these were and in what sense all of

 7     this happened.

 8        Q.   I understand that.  But I mean, I'm just saying that as far as

 9     you were concerned chiefs of the public security stations, the SJBs,

10     should report to you, and it was your job then to report up to the

11     ministry itself?

12        A.   Yes, yes, but there are situations in accordance with this

13     instruction about current and temporary reporting when a station can

14     directly report.  What I complained about had less to do with reporting.

15     It had more to do with this bypassing as it were.  The chief, a

16     particular station, and so on.

17        Q.   If the minister issued an order which was then sent to a CSB

18     chief via one of the heads of departments or assistant ministers, was

19     that something that you were obliged to obey?

20        A.   Yes, it was binding, but if you see that something is unlawful

21     then, as you could see, I reacted.  I indicated that this was something

22     that was unlawful.

23        Q.   Absolutely.  But provided it was in the law, it was a binding

24     order?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 20935

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at Article 10, which is on the

 2     same page.  It's the next page in English.


 4        A.   Which article?

 5        Q.   Article 10.  Can you see it?

 6        A.   Can it please be enlarged?

 7        Q.   We'll enlarged it for you.  It says:

 8             "Public security stations shall assist in the execution of

 9     activities and tasks within the remit of other state organs or

10     enterprises and other legal entities exercising public authority as

11     prescribed by law, when physical resistance is encountered or can be

12     reasonably expected in the course of these execution of these activities

13     and tasks."

14             The chief of the public security station shall decide on the form

15     and extent:

16             "If he expects that organised and large scale physical resistance

17     will be encountered in extending the assistance described in paragraph 1

18     of this Article, or that weapons will be used, the chief of the public

19     security station must obtain the consent of the minister of the interior

20     (hereinafter, the minister) before reaching a decision as outlined in the

21     previous -- preceding paragraph."

22             So does that mean if there was a question, for example -- well,

23     perhaps you can give us an example.  What is meant here by other state

24     organs or enterprises?

25        A.   Yes.  In police jargon this was called assistance,

Page 20936

 1     "asistencija."  For example, other state organs are supposed to carry out

 2     a decision, say, of an inspectorate.  Let me talk, say, about

 3     construction project.  The construction inspectorate forbids the building

 4     of a particular edifice and then the inspectorate makes a decision

 5     stating that what has been built so far has to be destroyed, and the

 6     police offers its assistance in that way, allowing the construction

 7     inspectorate to tear down what had been built until then.  That also

 8     happened when people were supposed to be moved out of certain premises.

 9     There are various situations of that kind.

10             At the request of a particular organ, an assessment is made and

11     as you saw in the third paragraph of this article, if it is assessed that

12     this is very risky then even the consent of the minister is required, if

13     weapons are to be used, for instance, and so on.

14        Q.   Right.  Now, let's take another example.  If, for example, the

15     Municipal Assembly of Doboj decided that no one should be allowed to

16     carry fire-arms, and issued an order that they were to surrender all

17     fire-arms and the persons ordered was apparent [indiscernible] to do

18     that.  And the police were brought in to execute a lawful order made by

19     the Municipal Assembly, if force was to be used in those circumstances,

20     would the consents of the minister have to be obtained?

21        A.   I don't know whether you have chosen a good example, even though

22     it is hypothetical.  Municipal Assemblies can pass decisions on public

23     law and order referring to the work of the catering industry, for

24     instance.  But as for prohibiting the carrying of fire-arms, I'm not sure

25     that the Municipal Assembly did have that kind of authority.  If people

Page 20937

 1     had licences, then they were allowed to have weapons.  They could have,

 2     for instance, forbidden people to enter the premises of the Assembly with

 3     fire-arms, if that's what you meant.

 4        Q.   Leave aside the particular thing I just -- but if that was the

 5     situation, if the municipal body in charge had issued an instruction

 6     which had to be carried out by the police because it was a lawful

 7     instruction and there was going to be resistance and that was obvious to

 8     everybody, would the consent of the minister before force was used have

 9     to be obtained?

10        A.   For the sake of clarity, for each and every situation when the

11     police provides assistance, an assessment is made.  That is to say, the

12     risk is assessed and also what could possibly happen when a decision is

13     being enforced.  If it is established as is clearly stated in paragraph 3

14     of Article 10 that there can be larger scale resistance and use of

15     fire-arms, then it was necessary to obtain the concept of the minister

16     for providing that kind of assistance, "asistencija."

17        Q.   Let's move then to specific matters dealt with on this topic

18     about laws made by the Municipal Assembly.

19             MS. KORNER:  Article 27, please, which is on page 4 in English

20     and page -- I think it's 4 also in B/C/S, Cyrillic:

21        Q.   "In addition to the activities and tasks set out in the rules on

22     the internal organisation of the ministry, a public security station

23     shall implement regulations passed by the Municipal Assembly relating to

24     law and order, road safety, as well as other regulations in the domain of

25     Internal Affairs that have been passed by the Municipal Assembly."

Page 20938

 1             Going back to what Dr. Karadzic said in March, he said the police

 2     have to be under civilian authorities, and that's correct, isn't it, the

 3     police and the executive, they carry out the lawful regulations made by

 4     either the Assembly of the state or the Municipal Assembly?

 5        A.   Yes, you are right when you say that they work in carrying out

 6     regulations passed by the Municipal Assembly in accordance with the

 7     Law on Internal Affairs in respect of those particular elements.

 8     However, as far as public security stations are concerned and their

 9     relationship with the Municipal Assemblies and the Executive Boards that

10     existed at the time as the executive organs of the Municipal Assemblies,

11     then there had to be information.  The public security station had to

12     function on a horizontal plane as we called it.  They had to inform the

13     Assembly about matters that had to do with that area.

14             However, they did not have to submit reports that would have to

15     be adopted ultimately.  Also, in certain areas the Municipal Assembly did

16     not have the right to issue any kind of orders, but what is stipulated

17     here specifically, yes, that is indeed the case.

18        Q.   I absolutely agree.  There were certain areas where orders had to

19     be issued through the line of the chain of command and all that the

20     Municipal Assembly could do was request information?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And Article 28 merely sets out the CSBs and then

23     Article 31 I think is what we are all thinking of -- sorry, which is --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

25     witness.

Page 20939

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was enlarged and now you had it

 2     removed.  Did you say 28?

 3             MS. KORNER:

 4        Q.   No, 31.  I mentioned 28 in passing, Mr. Bjelosevic, but it's

 5     Article 31:

 6             "If so requested by the Municipal Assembly and its executive

 7     committee, a Security Services Centre and a public security station shall

 8     submit reports, information, and other data relating," I think the word

 9     must be missed out, "to the situation and problems in the area in which

10     and for which they have been established."

11             Article 32 on the same lines:

12             "The Municipal Assembly and its executive committee may submit

13     opinions to the ministry at its seat, initiate proposals," and so on.

14             Now, when the Municipal Assembly could not meet because there was

15     a state of emergency or an imminent threat of war and its functions were

16     being carried out by a Crisis Staff, the Crisis Staff had the same

17     abilities, didn't it, in respect of the police as had the

18     Municipal Assembly subject to verification of its decisions at a later

19     stage when the Assembly was able to meet.

20        A.   If you were reading that out, could you please give me that

21     provision as well, the article.

22        Q.   No, no, I'm putting a question to you whether you accept that the

23     Crisis Staff legislation and discussions do not lie in the Ministry of

24     Internal Affairs.  I'm asking you -- sorry, in the Law on Intern Affairs.

25     I'm asking you whether you accept that the powers exercised under the law

Page 20940

 1     by the Municipal Assembly when it couldn't meet and a Crisis Staff was in

 2     its place, it could also exercise those powers?

 3        A.   I have to be quite frank and say that as far as I'm concerned

 4     Crisis Staffs in that situation and at the time and in the form in which

 5     they existed were quite a grey zone because Crisis Staffs, as you could

 6     see from various documents, came into being as, say, the Crisis Staff of

 7     the Croat people, the Crisis Staff of the Serb people, the Crisis Staff

 8     of the Muslim people, and so on and so forth, and then later on, how

 9     should I put this, they were re-organised territorially.  They were

10     reformulated, as it were.

11             As far as Crisis Staffs or this or that, people are concerned,

12     then, at least as far as I know, and I'm not saying I know everything, I

13     really have to be clear on that, they were not based on law and that is

14     how they started organising themselves.  And then, well, that's the way

15     it was.  But if you take into account the circumstances involved and I

16     would dare say that it was the entire area of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was

17     involved, the territory was disjointed, there was hardly any

18     communication and there would then be some justification for

19     Crisis Staffs because somebody had to take over the role of governing and

20     organising life in these areas too.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I didn't want to interrupt the answer

22     of the witness but I do object -- I don't object when Ms. Korner is

23     asking the witness about the Law on Interior because being a chief of the

24     CSB it is understandable that he is aware of the law and the provisions

25     of the law.  Also, I didn't object when she was asking him about the laws

Page 20941

 1     on All People's Defence because, as we heard from the witness, he worked

 2     in the national defence office in Derventa before he became the chief of

 3     the CSB.  But now I must object that what is elicited from the witness

 4     are provisions of the law and comments on the law which have nothing to

 5     do whatsoever with his professional and his knowledge.

 6             I must say that I'm also astonished by the fact that none of the

 7     questions which Ms. Korner posed today were not put to the expert witness

 8     when he was on the stand over here.  Not a single one, not a comments on

 9     any of these laws have ever been put by the Office of the Prosecutor to

10     the police expert which we brought as a previous witness.  And I'm not

11     entirely sure what is the -- what is the -- the case of the Prosecution

12     anymore because --

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I think this is going into -- I

14     think -- I think this is now going into a discussion of evidence and

15     policy, and I don't think it's proper that the witness should listen to

16     this.  I've got a perfectly good reason which I will explain for why I'm

17     asking these questions.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Well, it's nearly time for the break, so perhaps the

19     witness can be excused.  The usher could escort the witness out a little

20     ahead of the usual time for the break.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, if I may then finish before --

23             JUDGE HALL:  In terms of the second limb, Mr. Zecevic, of your

24     objection or observation, wouldn't the -- well, my impression, and I

25     confess I may be wrong, is that the line of question that Ms. Korner was

Page 20942

 1     pursuing is in terms of what the law is.  She is taking advantage of

 2     having the CSB chief on the stand who is working with this and applying

 3     it on a day-to-day basis.  So whether she pursued the interpretation with

 4     the police expert is neither here nor there, but in terms of the first

 5     part of your objection, do I understand it to be that the questions that

 6     are being asked are outside of the -- are questions on the interpretation

 7     of the law which are straying outside of the ordinary work or expertise

 8     of this witness?  Is that what I understand your objection to be?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Precisely so, Your Honours.  What I tried to

10     explain is the fact that I was not objecting to any comments on the laws

11     which have something to do with his profession or his duties as a chief

12     of the CSB.  But then what is happening is that Ms. Korner is putting to

13     the witness her understanding of the law for a comment, and that

14     particular part deals with the laws that have nothing to do with his

15     either profession or his -- or his education, if I may say so.  Thank

16     you.  That was the point of my objection.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I may have phrased it rather badly,

18     but, in fact, I was asking for his understanding, not what the law was

19     about Crisis Staffs and whatever, but his understanding on the position

20     he was in during this period of the ability of Crisis Staffs who had

21     taken over from Municipal Assemblies.  As regards to the first part, this

22     man is, in the Prosecution's submission, and this is something we will be

23     saying at the end of the case, much more of an expert on these matters

24     than the expert -- the so-called expert that was actually called.  And in

25     any event what questions were put to Mr. Bajagic is, as Your Honours have

Page 20943

 1     pointed out, entirely irrelevant.  But, Your Honours, what I was asking

 2     for was his understanding of the powers of the Crisis Staff if they

 3     devolved from the Municipal Assembly, which I didn't think was a matter

 4     of dispute at all because we've called a lot of evidence about it which

 5     has not been challenged including an expert on Crisis Staffs.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, your last remark calls for a

 8     reference back to what the presiding judge raised this morning, namely

 9     that given the constraints on time, I just wondered whether this is the

10     best possible use of the time that we have with this witness to take him

11     through his understanding of the situation in respect of the

12     Crisis Staffs which are matters that, as you say, are neither contested

13     nor uncovered by the evidence that we already have.  So is this really

14     beneficial to your case?

15             MS. KORNER:  I don't know whether Your Honours have read through

16     Mr. Stanisic's interview, which I did in preparation for this witness.

17     It's my understanding is that the Defence propose to try and rely on what

18     he said in interview.  I'm, therefore, dealing with this witness with

19     some of the assertions that he made in interview and that's why otherwise

20     I would not, may I say, be spending time on the Law of Internal Affairs

21     and the questions such as the questions that I've been asking.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we will take the adjournment now and continue

23     with this in 20 minutes.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

Page 20944

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, I just want to deal with a couple of more

 4     articles on the Law on Internal Affairs and then we'll move into other

 5     matters.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I suppose I better have it back up again.

 7     It's P530.  And Article 33, which is on the fourth page of the English

 8     and I think the same in B/C/S.  If we can highlight the B/C/S for you.

 9        Q.   That deals with the tasks and activities of the ministry at its

10     seat, and in particular as it affected you, monitors directs and

11     co-ordinates the activity of the Security Services Centre.  Now, that, I

12     think, was identical under the old Socialist Republic of BiH law; is that

13     right?

14        A.   In essence, yes, I don't have the other text to compare it with

15     this one but I believe that's the case.

16        Q.   Can we then just deal, please, with Article 43, which I think

17     encapsulates what you've already told us, which you will find on the

18     sixth page, yeah, page 6 of the English and the same in B/C/S:

19             "Authorised officials must execute orders issued by the minister

20     or by their immediate senior official for the purpose of performing

21     activities and tasks related to national and public security, except when

22     such orders contravene the constitution and the law."

23             Mr. Bjelosevic, effectively that's what you've already told us,

24     isn't it?

25        A.   Yes, that's it.

Page 20945

 1        Q.   And the final article I want to move on to, the events --

 2             MS. KORNER:  Article 126, please, which is on page 13, I think.

 3     126.  Of the English.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's on the screen.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Not in the English, I am afraid.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you have it there?

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   We'll have to go to the next page:

 9             "The centres for public security centres and public security

10     stations the Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina on the territory of the Republic of the Serbian people

12     shall be closed on the day that this law enters into force and shall

13     resume their work as organising units of the Ministry of the Interior of

14     the Serbian Republic ..."

15             Now, that's what Mr. Mandic's telegram was saying, wasn't it, and

16     that's what the Law of Internal Affairs was saying?

17        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

18        Q.   And as you've already told us and I don't want to go back over

19     it, you decided, in effect, that you weren't, from what you tell us --

20     you weren't going to comply with that?

21             You have to say yes.

22        A.   Yes, we discussed it.

23        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Now, I want very, very briefly, please, to deal

24     a little bit with the events that you have described at length to

25     Mr. Zecevic of Bosanski Brod and Slavonski Brod and to a certain extent

Page 20946

 1     Derventa because, as we said -- as you heard me say at the time, this is

 2     not a matter that's part of our indictment.

 3             Could you have a look, please, at a document which has got the

 4     number 20032, tab 88.  It's not tab 88 in the Defence bundle.  You have

 5     to look at it on the screen, I am afraid.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Now, can we go to the next page, please, in B/C/S

 7     and English.

 8        Q.   This was an article that was published in "Slobodna Bosnia" on

 9     the 24th of May, 2001, and it deals with the activities on a trial that

10     had taken place in respect of Taifun.

11             MS. KORNER:  And I want you to look, please, at the B/C/S, I

12     think it's the next page, and in English it's the third page.  In

13     English, please, the page after that.  Fourth page.

14        Q.   I just want to confirm either with you, Mr. Bjelosevic, or any of

15     the Defence counsel that we are looking -- you are able to see something

16     headed, "Explosions, Destruction, Incidents"?  That is right, is it?

17     Okay.  Thank you.  So it is.

18             Do you see that heading, "Explosions, Destruction, Incidents."

19        A.   That's the only thing I can make out, in fact.  The rest is very

20     small print.  Can it be enlarged, please?

21        Q.   Yes.  This is describing what is alleged to be one of the first

22     operations of Taifun led by Branko Ratic, still a JNA officer -- was to

23     destroy the bridge near Bosanski Brod in the autumn of 1991.  The bridge

24     was shelled from Mahala village on the Bosnian side.  Three shells hit

25     the bridge and an tanker truck on it and five shells fell on the centre

Page 20947

 1     of Slavonski Brod.  Ratic was given logistical support by the then chief

 2     of the Doboj secure services centre, Mr. Bjelosevic, Andrija Bjelosevic.

 3     First question is:  Is that right that there was a shelling?  There was a

 4     destruction of the bridge in autumn of 1991?

 5        A.   Not at all.  The bridge was blown up only sometime in 1992 but

 6     there was an incident of sorts at the time and an on-site investigation

 7     was carried out.  I went to Brod to attend the scene personally, but the

 8     bridge wasn't destroyed.  Later on, the administration got involved in

 9     the matter, the administration from the Ministry of the Interior of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They took charge of the investigation into who

11     opened fire on from where.  They took me, what I -- they took me to the

12     place where the mortars were opening fire from, whereas from what I read

13     here it's a bit preposterous.  And we went to examine the place.

14     However, had mortars opened fire from that particular spot, then the

15     window panes on the house nearby would have been shattered.  Furthermore,

16     the tanker truck, I don't know what happened with it, but had it been

17     full of gas, it would have been blown apart.  So there were quite a few

18     unknowns in my mind around this event, but there was an incident, that's

19     true.

20             As for the press coverage, that was very tendencious.  I was even

21     accused of causing the death of the chief of the public security sector

22     in Doboj.  Senad --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the last name.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Jasmin Halilovic, who was the

25     head of the economic crime department, they perished in a traffic

Page 20948

 1     accident near Kakanj, and I had the long grown accustomed to such press

 2     coverage and tried to be impervious to it.

 3             MS. KORNER:

 4        Q.   All right.  Is your answer, Yes there was some incident when the

 5     bridge was shelled, but you don't accept -- let's take that first part of

 6     the question.  There was an incidents in autumn of 1991 when the bridge

 7     was shelled?

 8        A.   Yes, there was some sort of fire there.

 9        Q.   You do not accept that it was done by Mr. Ratic who was then a

10     JNA officer?

11        A.   I don't know if it was he who did it.  I don't know who caused it

12     and what the motives were, but there was an incident.  There was various

13     circumstantial evidence at the time as to who was behind it.  If you want

14     to talk about the various versions, we can do that.  What we read here is

15     one of the versions but there are others, and I really don't know what is

16     the truth of the matter.

17        Q.   Did you give logistical support to Mr. Ratic?

18        A.   That's absurd.  What sort of logistical support would it have

19     been?

20        Q.   Why didn't you mention this incident when you gave your evidence

21     about what was the events of Bosanski Brod and Slavonski Brod?

22        A.   Believe me when I say that I don't know.  This was an incident

23     that engendered several versions.  One of the versions is that the

24     Croatian forces staged the whole thing in order to close off the bridge.

25     The second version was that it was this JNA officer who was behind it.  I

Page 20949

 1     really don't know what the truthful version is.  However, what followed

 2     next as of 15th of September were serious events, and I'm speaking about

 3     15th of September, 1991.  Since it was the administration that got

 4     involved in the case, they simply took the matter from our hands.  As far

 5     as I remember, we had never received an official version of the events.

 6        Q.   This happened, didn't it, long before the events that you've

 7     described which you say were the Croats attacking from a division between

 8     Slavonski and Bosanski Brod, or a division the other way around?

 9        A.   That wasn't long before.  The first armed incident where shells

10     were landing in the Slavonian part dated back to the 15th of September,

11     whereas this was early September.  I think that those events happened

12     before the event we are just discussing now.  As for my earlier testimony

13     when I was being examined by the Defence, I didn't even mention the

14     Slavonski Brod incident in the neighbourhood of Bjelis and it somehow

15     cropped up yesterday.

16        Q.   All right.  That's all I want to ask you about that.  The only

17     other matter I want to put to you, again it's only, I suggest, that you

18     didn't mention when you gave your evidence, it's right, isn't it, that in

19     Bosanski Brod the Serbs proclaimed yet another Serbian municipality in

20     late February, early March?

21        A.   I don't know the date, really.  However, in early March there

22     were armed clashes taking place.  When the Serbian Brod municipality was

23     declared, I don't know.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  During the direct examination I hope you will

25     remember that Ms. Korner was complaining and objecting to my line of

Page 20950

 1     questions concerning these municipalities, Derventa, Bosanski Brod and

 2     the like, saying that it is not in the indictment.  And, therefore, on

 3     the suggestion of the Trial Chamber, I shortened the presentation of that

 4     particular part -- portion of my presentation in chief because it was the

 5     objection from the Office of the Prosecutor which to a certain extent the

 6     Trial Chamber accepted.

 7             Now, the witness -- it is put to the witness that he failed to

 8     mention these incidents in his direct examination, testing his

 9     credibility when, in fact, I didn't have the opportunity to ask the

10     witness about this because there was an objection.  I don't think that

11     this is appropriate.  Thank you very much.

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, of course, if Mr. Zecevic tells me that he had

13     every intention of asking him about the first incident that we've seen in

14     this article and the fact that a Serbian municipality was declared, then

15     of course I would immediately withdraw any suggestion I had that he

16     deliberately didn't mention it.  So if Mr. Zecevic says he would have

17     asked that had he been given further time, then I certainly won't make

18     that suggestion.

19             JUDGE HALL:  But, Ms. Korner, I'm not sure where this is going

20     because my recollection of the point in examination-in-chief to which

21     Mr. Zecevic refers is that upon the Prosecution's -- well, first of all,

22     basically, it is always of doubtful assistance to ask the witness why

23     didn't he volunteer something in as much as the procedure is usually one

24     of a witness only answers a question that's asked.  But coming back to

25     the objection, my recollection is, and please correct me if I'm wrong --

Page 20951

 1     is that the -- upon the Prosecution's objection to these municipalities

 2     who are not in the indictment, the witness's explanation was that the --

 3     well, the explanation was that this arose because there was an overlap

 4     between the municipalities mentioned in the indictment and his areas of

 5     responsibility, and for that limited purpose, based on the objection, the

 6     basic objection of relevance, the limited questions were asked.  So like

 7     Mr. Zecevic, I confess, I wonder why you are going down this road.

 8             MS. KORNER:  I think the witness better leave court, Your Honour.

 9     I may say I'm somewhat surprised at Your Honour's remarks just now.  I

10     think I better explain because it's not in the way that Your Honour has

11     expressed it.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness from

13     the court.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours will recall that Mr. Zecevic was asking

16     questions specifically about the events of Bosanski and Slavonski Brod,

17     and when I first raised my objection and said I did not see the relevance

18     of this, and I let it go on for some time and I can turn up, I can get

19     Mr. Demirdjian to turn up the relevant pages, Mr. Zecevic explained,

20     Your Honours accepted it and we went on.  And I raised the objection a

21     second time because, in particular, you will recall he gave a very, very

22     long answer which bore no relationship to the question that actually

23     Mr. Zecevic asked and went over again the Serb version of events in

24     Bosanski Brod and Slavonski Brod.

25             At the end I said that I was being put in a very difficult

Page 20952

 1     position because I didn't consider it relevant, and otherwise I would

 2     have to cross-examine on it.  Your Honours left court at that stage

 3     saying they didn't -- you didn't consider it relevant and I didn't have

 4     to cross-examine or Judge Hall said that, and I'm paraphrasing.  However,

 5     the next morning you came back and said, No, it was a matter for me.

 6     Now, Your Honours, I don't expect to -- this is literally the only two

 7     questions that I'm going to deal with because I do consider it's relevant

 8     and that is he we are going to be addressing you.  But he was allowed to

 9     give his evidence, Mr. Zecevic was allowed to ask the questions on this

10     basis, and, therefore, I'm in entitled to cross-examine, to point out

11     that when Mr. Zecevic was going through it with him and asking the

12     questions about this, that not once did he mention this incident, whether

13     or not he was involved where the bridge was attacked before the events he

14     described, nor did he mention at any stage, and he was the one coming out

15     with most of the evidence -- that we would suggest part of the problem

16     was caused by the fact that they had declared a Serbian municipality in

17     Bosanski Brod.  Those go directly to -- those are matters that go

18     directly to the relevance or not of this evidence -- his own credibility.

19     But as I say, if Mr. Zecevic asserts and of course I accept his word for

20     this, that he would have asked about that early incidents, that he would

21     have asked about the creation of the Serbian municipality, then I

22     withdraw any suggestion that he deliberately avoided telling us.

23             JUDGE HALL:  I hear what you've just said which is -- the only

24     slight difficulty I have with that, though, is that in terms of the

25     evidence which I appreciate you leading in terms of the testing the

Page 20953

 1     witness's credibility, but the -- I don't know that anything that counsel

 2     for Stanisic says whether what he would have done and therefore your

 3     withdrawing the question becomes evidence on which we can act.  I'm a bit

 4     uncomfortable.  I see you being permitted to explore the area to the

 5     limited extent that it came into the body of evidence in terms of testing

 6     the witness's credibility.  But the last part of your terms of Mr. -- any

 7     representation Mr. Zecevic would give, I don't know that we can

 8     necessarily accept it.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I think this goes back perhaps very much to domestic

10     practice, Your Honour.  But quite often, you will hear people saying,

11     You've never said that before, have you, and that will get counsel for

12     either side, usually the Defence, and say, In actual fact it was in my

13     instructions but I didn't consider it relevant, so that's why I didn't

14     put it.  So the suggestion that you make that someone has literally

15     deliberately done something or invented something was immediately

16     withdrawn because you accept what counsel says.  So that's the basis on

17     which I'm proceeding.

18             I've just asked Mr. Demirdjian to do a check and he says there

19     were 40 pages of questions about Brod during the course of

20     examination-in-chief, so I think my couple of questions are pretty

21     limited.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the gist of my objection was the fact

23     that Ms. Korner was putting to the witness that he didn't mention this

24     particular incident.  I don't have a problem if she is exploring all

25     this.  She can ask the question, but the problem of putting that to the

Page 20954

 1     witness is not -- is not appropriate because it was Ms. Korner who was

 2     objecting for these line of questions.  And if I had the opportunity,

 3     Your Honours, I would have -- I would have gone into the matter of who

 4     created the Muslim municipality of Bosanski Brod, the Croatian

 5     municipality of Bosanski Brod, the Serb municipality of Bosanski Brod,

 6     but it was -- it is not in our indictment, I agree, and it was the

 7     objection by Ms. Korner.

 8             Now, Ms. Korner is objecting, Your Honours accepted, I went very

 9     limited for the very limited purpose, like Your Honours said, because the

10     Bosanski Brod was covered by the territory of the CSB Doboj.  That is the

11     only purpose, to show the situation in the territory of CSB Doboj prior

12     to break-out of the hostilities.  And, therefore, I wasn't in a position

13     to put all the questions that I wanted to put or could have put to the

14     witness.  And now Ms. Korner is using that to state that the witness

15     never mentioned it or testing his credibility on that.  I don't think

16     that's appropriate.  That was the gist of my objection.  Thank you.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, as I said I'll accept that Mr. Zecevic

18     had have been allowed to continue in the face of my objections would have

19     dealt with those matters, and I'm not -- I withdraw the suggestion that

20     the witness deliberately avoided dealing with them.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So we continue.  Could the witness be escorted back

22     to the stand.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             Ms. KORNER:

25        Q.   Yes.  In fact, just to put a date to this, I think you have a

Page 20955

 1     note in your diary for the 24th of February, 1992, about a meeting that

 2     took place, in fact a major meeting.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, this is one of the translations that

 4     came through yesterday but I just want to make one small point on it.

 5        Q.   If you turn up your diary, please, 24th of February, 1992, in

 6     Derventa.  There was a meeting, was there not, another one of these major

 7     meetings at which you attended, Mr. Delimustafic, Mr. Zepinic,

 8     Colonel Kolecevic [phoen] and others, do you see your note?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And there was a man called Radovanovic who was there, was there

11     not?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I must intervene again, Your Honours.

14     If we can have the document on the monitor for the benefit of our

15     clients.  And for the benefit of the interpreters as well.

16             MS. KORNER:  I'm going to put one small point and you've got the

17     diary there.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but the accused don't, and I believe they are

19     entitled to have before them what is referred to.

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.  We'll see, I don't know whether we can

21     find it.  20103 is the diary.  It's page 174 of that document.  There's a

22     bit where he has noted Delimustafic speaking.  Yes.  Could we go to the

23     next page, perhaps.

24        Q.   Yeah, we can see Mr. -- there's -- you can see the list of

25     attendees.

Page 20956

 1             MS. KORNER:  Do Your Honours want to have it up in English as

 2     well?  I just want to put one small point.  No, thank you.

 3        Q.   Then Mr. Delimustafic speaking.  Could you go, please, to the

 4     next -- we can see him at the bottom.  Stay where you are.

 5     Mr. Radovanovic, who was he?

 6        A.   Radovanovic was, if I remember correctly, well, yes, yes,

 7     president of the municipal board of SDS from Brod.  Yes.

 8        Q.   And he says:

 9             "Nobody wants to understand the Serbs in Bosanski Brod, no Serb

10     can cross the bridge."

11             MS. KORNER:  I think you need to go to the next page.

12        Q.   And does he say there somewhere or in your note:

13             "The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina should reflect on how to

14     protect the border.  People have become so agitated they, themselves,

15     have become an army.  At the wish of these people, yesterday,

16     Bosanski Brod was declared a municipality"?

17             Is that a correct translation of what you've written?

18        A.   I'm reading what Radovanovic said, but I haven't come to this

19     point yet.  Part of his remarks have to do with what I spoke of a moment

20     ago, who had benefit from having the bridge closed down and who suffered

21     because of it.  I'm looking for it.  Is it on the second page or third

22     page?

23        Q.   Did he -- can you see a part where he apparently, according to

24     the English translation, said that yesterday the municipality had been

25     declared?

Page 20957

 1        A.   That's exactly what I'm looking for.  That's what you said.  It's

 2     after this, "The government of the BH should look into ...," right?  Yes,

 3     yes, it's that paragraph, yes:

 4             "Yesterday, the municipality of Bosanski Brod was proclaimed

 5     according to the wishes of that people."

 6        Q.   And that was -- we are talking about, just so there's no

 7     misunderstanding, a Serb municipality; is that correct?

 8        A.   Let me read out the whole thing once again, I'm not sure.

 9        Q.   No, don't, please, just tell us --

10        A.   "The revolt of the people is on the rise.  They are going to

11     become an army themselves.  Yesterday, the municipality of Bosanski Brod

12     was" -- I really don't know who this refers to.

13        Q.   Well, this is the head of the SDS, isn't it?  He is referring to

14     a Serbian municipality being declared?

15        A.   That is not what is written here.  It doesn't say Serbian.

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   Let's try to look at the context once again, but it really does

18     not say Serb.  That is not what is written here.  How to protect the

19     border, revolt among the people is on the rise, they are going to turn

20     into an army themselves, yesterday the municipality of Bosnia Brod was

21     proclaimed according to the wishes of that people, I don't know who this

22     refers to.

23        Q.   You are not suggesting, are you, that it was a declaration of a

24     Croat municipality of Bosanski Brod?

25        A.   No, I'm not trying to say that either.  I'm just trying to

Page 20958

 1     decipher this.  I mean, to place it into a context to be sure of what I'm

 2     saying.  Because you see here at the beginning he says that none of the

 3     Serbs can cross the bridge in Brod, and then further on he says well

 4     possibly --

 5        Q.   Stop, stop.  Look at, please, your entry for the

 6     10th of March, 1992, which is -- move it through the diary to the 10th

 7     of March.

 8             MS. KORNER:  107B, 20103.02.  Tab 107B.  Okay.  Can we go,

 9     please, to Radonovic [sic] again which is on the next page, please, in

10     English.  No, there's that's fine.  Yes.

11        Q.   Item number 5:

12             "In case legal authorities begin to function, the Serbian

13     municipality of Bosanski Brod will be put on ice ..."

14             Do you agree that's what you wrote?

15        A.   Wait a moment, are we talking about the 10th or the 24th now?  A

16     moment ago you took me back to the meeting of the 10th, what I wrote down

17     then.

18        Q.   The 10th of -- no, I didn't.  The 10th of March, please.

19        A.   Oh, the 10th of March, sorry, I went back to the 10th of

20     February.  I'm really sorry.

21        Q.   You can look at it on the screen, Mr. Bjelosevic.

22        A.   Found it.  The 10th of March, Radovanovic.

23        Q.   It's just one simple question, Mr. Bjelosevic, don't go into

24     anything else:  Do you agree that clearly at that earlier meeting and

25     this meeting, Mr. Radovanovic is talking about the establishment of a

Page 20959

 1     Serbian municipality in Bosanski Brod?  That is the only question.

 2        A.   Yes, but I would like to look at this in its entirety, in the

 3     entire context.  I attended the meeting and I have to tell you that the

 4     municipality was full of uniformed people and --

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm going to prevent you because, as

 6     you know, we say that is irrelevant.  All that I'm trying to establish is

 7     that there was a Bosanski Brod Serbian municipality.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, is this contested by the Defence.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I don't know, Your Honours.  I haven't the faintest

10     idea.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could the Defence let us know?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, that is precisely why I don't see

13     what is the point.  There is no contention that there existed throughout

14     the Bosnia-Herzegovina the different municipalities, the Muslim

15     municipality, the Croatian municipality and the Serb municipality, within

16     the same territory of the previous municipality that existed in Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So how much further do we need to --

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, we don't -- but -- I am sorry.  I

20     really -- all I'm asking is a simple, straightforward question which the

21     witness at the moment is not particularly keen on answering.  I made my

22     objections about this.  If the evidence had gone untested or unchallenged

23     in the 40 pages of evidence this witness gave, you would never have known

24     that there was a Serbian municipality of Bosanski Brod set up.  Now, I

25     don't want to take it any further, and, Your Honours, I didn't want to

Page 20960

 1     take it any further even with the diary, but I couldn't get the witness

 2     to agree with me, as you saw, and only Your Honours can decide this case

 3     on the evidence and not counsel's suggestions.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may have a constructive solution, perhaps,

 6     Your Honours.  The Defence is ready to stipulate that this is the diary

 7     of Mr. Bjelosevic.  We can stipulate.  The diary talks for itself.  It's

 8     written here what is written, and then the Prosecutors may rely on

 9     certain portions of this diary and the Defence may rely on the other

10     portions of this diary, and, therefore, we can avoid all these questions

11     about it, about the contents of the diary.  We are ready to stipulate,

12     this is his diary, we believe that the Office of the Prosecutor checked

13     the contents of the diary, they had it -- they are taking it each and

14     every day, they want to make a photocopy of it, so we believe that is --

15     and the witness confirms that its his diary, so we don't have to contest

16     that.  We are not contesting it.  Therefore, we are ready to stipulate

17     the diary.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Which stipulation you would accept, Ms. Korner.

19             MS. KORNER:  We are talking about -- sorry, Your Honour, we are

20     talking about two completely different things.  I'm not interest in his

21     diary entries on this matter.  The only reason I referred to his diary

22     entries was because I couldn't get him to admit that there was a Serbian

23     municipality of Bosanski Brod declared at this particular date.  And you

24     can't just stipulates to the diary.  The diary entries on their own may

25     be meaningless and we can't interpret them unless we ask him about them.

Page 20961

 1     You can't just stipulate, of course we agree that's his diary, but the

 2     importance of the entries only relates to the evidence.  Mr. Zecevic's

 3     suggestion is so wholly irrelevant on this particular point.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Let's proceed in the manner we are going.  We may

 5     find at the end of the day that that is a shorter course.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, no, no, I don't want to waste my

 7     valuable time on this, but we may have to have an argument.  This diary

 8     in itself is utterly meaningless.  It's his own notes, it's only when

 9     it's related to the events or he explains them.

10             JUDGE HALL:  I heard you, Ms. Korner.  I fully understand what

11     you are saying.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Right.  Your Honours, I have, in fact,

13     completed -- and can I say, it's quite clear, I would never have referred

14     to this diary if he had simply answered the question directly, yes, there

15     was such a declaration.  Right.

16        Q.   Can we leave, please, Bosanski Brod, which is all I intend -- the

17     two questions, or the only two questions that I intend to ask you, and

18     just deal with the take-over of Doboj, the allegation you make that --

19     and you made in answer to the Judges, that the only armed people who were

20     coming into Doboj back from the Croatian front were those who had joined

21     the Croatian forces, is that what you say?

22        A.   I don't think that that is what I had said, that the only ones

23     who were coming were Croats, as you had put it, no.  What I was saying

24     was that people were coming, people in uniform and with weapons, coming

25     from the front and Croatia.

Page 20962

 1        Q.   Now, what you actually said because you were specifically asked

 2     about this by one of the Judges --

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have the reference, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Just wait.  That is exactly what I'm looking for.

 5     Right.  19443.

 6        Q.   Judge Delvoie:

 7             "Mr. Zecevic, before we go to that one, Mr. Bjelosevic, you said

 8     that it would happen that members of all sorts of formations would come

 9     back from Croatia, the Croatian front, I suppose to their home areas in

10     the Doboj area, they would come wearing uniforms and they would often

11     carry weapons.  They would come wearing uniforms and all different sorts

12     of formations, you said.  Am I correct by taking that generally the

13     uniforms were JNA or would that be other uniforms as well?

14             "A.  Of course some wore JNA uniforms, those that belonged to JNA

15     units.  However, what I meant here was they were primarily members of the

16     Croatian National Guards, the HOS units from Croatia and the other units

17     that had been established there.  People from the Doboj region went and

18     joined these units as volunteers."

19             Now, it may be that I misunderstood and if so I withdraw the

20     suggestion that's what you said, in fact it wasn't just members of HOS,

21     as you put it, who were coming back armed, it was also Serbs who had

22     responded to the mobilisation for the war in Croatia, wasn't it?

23        A.   Well, I did say other units as well, and on another occasion I

24     said that of course Serbs responded to the JNA call-up and that there

25     were those who were armed.  And there's no denying that.  They moved

Page 20963

 1     about and I don't know what your specific question is.  I did not deny

 2     that there were Serbs who were uniformed, armed and who were in the army.

 3        Q.   And by May of 1992 not only there were Serbs who had been in the

 4     JNA, but there were paramilitary organisations actually moving into the

 5     Doboj area, weren't there, Serb paramilitary organisations?

 6        A.   Let me try to answer this question as clearly as possible so that

 7     there's no confusion.  As for paramilitary formations, I'm talking about

 8     paramilitary formations now, although we were talking about arming.  In

 9     the second half of 1992, in the beginning of 1992, actually, all the way

10     up until the beginning of May, as far as Doboj was concerned at least,

11     Serbs responded to the JNA call-up.  Please try to understand this very

12     carefully now.  In that period until May, to the best of my knowledge,

13     there were not any Serb paramilitary formations in the area.  When the

14     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was proclaimed and when the JNA withdrew

15     from the area, what happened was that certain units, smaller ones,

16     started behaving outside the system, as it were, and they assumed the

17     nature of paramilitary structures.  I think that I had said that before

18     as well.

19        Q.   I'm putting to you, let me put this quite clearly, and I'll give

20     you the names, that the White Eagles, a group that are well known to you,

21     turned up in Doboj before May of 1992?

22        A.   I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with that group.  I really would

23     want to see who these White Eagles were before the month of May.  I

24     really do not know about them.

25        Q.   A group calling themselves Predo's wolves came into Doboj?

Page 20964

 1        A.   Do you mean Pedro's or Preda's wolves?

 2        Q.   I think I mean Predo's, but anyhow you know perfectly well who

 3     I'm talking about.  They were there, weren't they?

 4        A.   This is what I was telling you a moment ago.  It was a unit which

 5     was part of the JNA, so it's one of those units that were part of the

 6     JNA.  They were mainly individuals from Ozren.  However, in early May, as

 7     the JNA started to withdraw, the unit started operating quite

 8     autonomously and if they have wrestled themselves out of a system, then I

 9     suppose you could call them a paramilitary unit.  And they weren't the

10     only ones but they weren't the White Eagles.

11        Q.   What action -- sorry, and these people were terrorising, weren't

12     they, the non-Serb population?

13        A.   Yes.  According to my knowledge, they engaged in rogue behaviour

14     in May.

15        Q.   I am sorry.  My specific question --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Criminal behaviour, interpreter's addition.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   My specific question was they were terrorising the non-Serb

19     population, but you said yes to that even though you got the

20     qualification.

21        A.   Well, I said yes.

22        Q.   Now, let me deal with some of the facts for the take-over.  At

23     the last session of the Doboj Municipal Assembly, Mr. Ninkovic, who was

24     head of the SDS, proposed a division of the Doboj town, didn't he?

25        A.   I had information to that effect.  I don't know who proposed

Page 20965

 1     that, but that there was talk of Petar Uric street which divides the

 2     urban core of the town from Orasje and so on.

 3        Q.   The SDA members of the Assembly did not agree with that division

 4     and they left, didn't they?

 5        A.   I don't know the details, I didn't attend the Municipal Assembly

 6     meeting.

 7        Q.   All right.  But you did know, didn't you, that there was no

 8     agreement that was arrived at at the Assembly about any division of

 9     Doboj?

10        A.   My information at the time was that they were trying to reach an

11     arrangement to divide the town by reference to that particular street.

12     Where these discussions took them, I don't know.

13        Q.   Right.  Well, before the take-over on the night of the 2nd to the

14     3rd of May, there was no agreement reached.  You knew that, didn't you?

15        A.   I knew that no final agreement was reached.  However, to make it

16     easier for you to understand, the fact of the matter was that just beyond

17     that street it was the Muslim forces which held that part of town,

18     whereas this other end of town, the urban core of the town, were under

19     the control of the police.

20        Q.   So, what are you calling the Muslim forces?

21        A.   There were certain forces of theirs which held that part of town

22     under their control.  You have the reports that I sent on that issue.

23     There were Green Berets and members of the Patriotic League, and some of

24     it was from the Territorial Defence that was under their organisation.

25        Q.   Weren't they just Muslim citizens who you were calling

Page 20966

 1     Green Berets, members of the Patriotic League?  Weren't they just Muslims

 2     who happened to live in that part of the town?

 3        A.   There were armed formations.  You can see that in those

 4     documents.  There were squads, platoons, companies.  They had their

 5     commanding structures.  They had military instructor come to train the

 6     forces over there, and now that we are discussing it, at Gradina itself,

 7     sometime in April, I can't remember the exact date, they hoisted a flag

 8     which caused quite a bit of anger and there were threats that the area

 9     would come under attack from the army.  I went to see Mr. Alicic, the

10     president of the Municipal Assembly at the time and he used his authority

11     to calm the situation down.  The flag was taken down and no major

12     incident happened.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  What is this line of question because I think it's

14     educated fact.  All this events was covered by adjudicated fact.  For

15     example, adjudicated fact 1 to 66 cover all this split of Doboj and all

16     this [indiscernible].  So what is the purpose of asking this question?

17             MS. KORNER:  I read that to him deliberately, Mr. Krgovic, and

18     the purpose of asking the questions is because, so far, every adjudicated

19     fact that we have, this witness has challenged.  So I'm trying to find

20     out what he does accept.  But thank you for the helpful intervention,

21     Mr. Krgovic.  I rather think the Judges had realised I was reading the

22     adjudicated fact.

23        Q.   This was, wasn't it -- this was your excuse, your and the Serbs'

24     excuse for taking over the town of Doboj, as you've already told us, the

25     alleged attack that was about to happen an alleged attack?

Page 20967

 1        A.   It wasn't an alleged attack.  That's how it was.  It was just a

 2     matter of time and of who would keep the town under their control and

 3     there was information gathered at the time both by national security and

 4     public security, and I do believe that the information is true.

 5        Q.   Let's deal with what actually happened.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Ms. Korner, just one matter.  The witness's

 7     answer on 71/25 was recorded as part of your question.  There's no answer

 8     recorded of the witness.

 9             MS. KORNER:  From the words, "That's how it was."  Yes.

10        Q.   What happened was this:  The CSB was taken over and all non-Serb

11     officers were -- police officers were expelled, weren't they?

12        A.   I don't know that they were expelled.  How do you mean

13     "expelled"?

14        Q.   Thrown out of the police station.

15        A.   Well, expelled and fled is not one in the same thing.

16        Q.   All right.  Some fled, many were arrested, weren't they?

17        A.   What followed next, the arrests around the town is not something

18     that I took any part in or was specifically informed of, and I've already

19     said as much.

20        Q.   But, Mr. Bjelosevic, I understand that, but you were there for

21     the take-over, your CSB could not have been taken over without your

22     consent and knowledge, could it?

23        A.   Between the 2nd and the 3rd, I was not in the police building.

24     It was at around 8.00 or 7.30 in the morning on the 3rd that I arrived

25     there.  But I'm not denying what you are saying that there were people

Page 20968

 1     arrested, including members of the police.  If that's what your question

 2     is about, then you are right.

 3        Q.   Right.  That was the first part of my question.  I need to go

 4     back then, please.  You were involved, Mr. Bjelosevic, weren't you, in

 5     the planning of this take-over?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   The whole take-over was planned without any reference to you or

 8     input by you, is that what you are telling the Court?

 9        A.   I know that it had been planned and that an order had been issued

10     for the engagement of the army on that particular task, and it was

11     carried out on the night between the 2nd and the 3rd of May.

12        Q.   By the army, and particularly in respect of the CSB by the police

13     as well, wasn't it?

14        A.   One of the buildings that were taken over at the time was the

15     centre or the station.  It comes down to the same thing.

16        Q.   Yes.  Taken over by police officers with the assistance of the

17     army?

18        A.   I would say that it was taken over by the army.  The army.  It

19     was in the morning that the police took over the building.  I was able to

20     see that some offices in the building were forcibly entered.  I don't

21     think that police officers would have done that had they been there.

22        Q.   But I just want to get this quite straight, Mr. Bjelosevic.  You

23     are saying, are you, that you knew what was going to happen but you stood

24     back from it and took no part?

25        A.   Let me be quite specific and clear.  I was at the place from

Page 20969

 1     where the action started.  Lipac on the slopes of Mount Ozren.  I knew

 2     that the military action would go ahead.  I stayed up there until the

 3     morning.  I was up at Lipac until the morning.  Once the action was

 4     carried out, I came to town to the police building.

 5        Q.   Final question before we break:  Who do you say was in charge of

 6     the police forces that is were involved in this take-over?

 7        A.   What the extent of the police forces participated in that was, I

 8     don't know, but there is a letter which I obtained at a later date which

 9     was also addressed to the command of the operational group and the

10     Municipal Assembly.  I handed it over here where the individuals who

11     signed themselves as the defenders of Lipac say that Obren Petrovic had

12     gathered them and was in command.  You have that document.

13        Q.   Yeah.  So we are back to this, aren't we, everything that

14     happened in Doboj for the next two months or so, the fault is that of

15     Obren Petrovic?  That's what you are saying, isn't it?

16        A.   No, no, I'm not claiming that Obren is to blame for everything.

17     The circumstances were the way they were.  I only told you what I knew

18     about it and what the letter said.

19             MS. KORNER:  Can I just finish this, Your Honour, and then

20     we'll --

21        Q.   Obren Petrovic was your inferior.  You were his superior officer.

22     We went through that.  Are you telling this Court that of his own bat,

23     without any input from you, he was in charge of the police that night?

24        A.   That's not what I said.  I only said what the letter said.  I

25     said where I was up until the morning.

Page 20970

 1        Q.   Right.  Did you -- Mr. Bjelosevic, did you put Mr. Petrovic in

 2     charge of the police that night?

 3        A.   No sort of authorisation was requested of me, nor did I give any,

 4     and I said at the beginning, according to the information I had, it was

 5     the army that took over the building.  As far as I know, the police

 6     participated in the taking over of some other buildings in terms of

 7     providing security until the morning.

 8        Q.   Again without any instructions or input from you?

 9        A.   Well, allow me to make it quite clear, when the action was

10     launched, the commander who was in charge of it and who ordered it,

11     Major Stankovic, assessed the situation in the way that the police force

12     should not be the one involved in the taking over of the police building

13     of their own members.  The police force engaged on that night was mixed.

14     There were Serbs, Muslims, and Croats among them.  I know that the

15     arrangement was that these people should be treated fairly and that there

16     should be no violence.  There is no doubt that the town was taken over.

17     This is not in dispute.  I'm merely trying to explain through various

18     details how it all played out.

19             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE HALL:  I would let everybody have their five minutes back

21     so we'll reconvene at 2.35

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Break taken at 1.50 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 2.38 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 20971

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, just before we adjourned when you were explaining

 3     that you had nothing whatsoever to do with the take-over, the planning,

 4     or the execution thereof, you said at page 74, line 5:

 5             "What the extent of the police forces participating in that was,

 6     I don't know, but there is a letter which I obtained at later date

 7     addressed to the command of the operational group.  I handed it over here

 8     with the individuals who signed themselves as the defenders of Lipac say

 9     that Obren Petrovic gathered them and was in command.  You have that

10     document."

11             Now, this is a document you've not given certainly not to us

12     before.  Is this a document you'd given to the Defence before?  You had

13     given it to the Defence?  Sorry, you have to say yes.

14        A.   No, not to the Defence.  When I went home, that was submitted

15     with all the other copies.  I didn't deny so categorically that I didn't

16     know anything about that and that I was in no way involved.  If I have to

17     repeat, I can say that I knew that that would happen that evening.

18     There's no doubt about that.  And I sent this document with all the other

19     copies of all the other documents.

20        Q.   It's one of the documents you say which you gave to VWS.  I may

21     say I'm not interested in the contents but I want to ask you about the

22     document.

23             MS. KORNER:  We've only just had it translated, Your Honours,

24     because it was only given to us at the beginning of the week.  We've done

25     the translation and it's on Sanction if that can be put ...

Page 20972

 1        Q.   Is that the document you referred to earlier this morning, or

 2     this afternoon, rather?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Right.  Where did you get the document?

 5        A.   That document was sent to several addresses.  You can see the

 6     list of the addressees at the bottom, and I received the document at the

 7     time when it was sent all those addresses, somebody gave it to me, but I

 8     don't remember who it was.

 9        Q.   And when was that?  There's no date on this document.

10        A.   That was in the course of 1993, if my memory serves me properly.

11        Q.   The document is not signed?

12        A.   Well, yes, it was signed with the words combatants of the Lipovac

13     company, that's how it was drafted.  There were a lot of such letters

14     with similar contents and I don't mean in terms of the facts but in terms

15     of various demands, but there were no signatures.  Those documents would

16     be signed in general terms by combatants of this or other group or

17     company.

18        Q.   Nothing to show where it was sent, any stamp, any receipt.  Would

19     not these people have stamped a receipt on it?  Received on such and such

20     a day, the operations group or the municipal board or the president of

21     the Municipal Assembly or the president of the Executive Board?  Wasn't

22     that standard practice in 1993?

23        A.   I really don't remember who gave it to me, and as for the list of

24     the addresses to which it was sent you can see that, and I know that I

25     already discussed this document with some people at that time.  At that

Page 20973

 1     time the address -- the signatories of this document were mentioned.  I

 2     don't know how relevant it is, but persons like Slobodan Devic and others

 3     were mentioned as being the authors of the documents.  But let me go back

 4     to my service, that was the objective of this letter, that was its goal.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Of course you know what evidence Obren Petrovic gave, don't

 6     you, in this Court?

 7        A.   Yes, I know some of it.

 8        Q.   [Did you watch him giving evidence?

 9        A.   I read the summaries that are published by the SENSE agency at

10     the end of the day so I know more or less what was said.

11        Q.   That's the last question I want to ask about this, the tenor of

12     your evidence when asked questions by Mr. Zecevic is that effectively

13     Petrovic was in charge and certainly during the months of May, June --

14     May and June?  That's correct, isn't it?

15        A.   I beg your pardon?

16        Q.   Your evidence to this Court when asked questions by Mr. Zecevic

17     has been to the effect that you were not there and Mr. Petrovic was in

18     charge of the police activities in Doboj?

19        A.   That's correct, and if we are familiar with the structure of the

20     police, the police would be in the public security station, not in the

21     Security Services Centre.

22        Q.   All right.  That's all I want to ask.  Thank you.  Now, can we

23     deal, please, with the events in Doboj.  The Muslim population was

24     ordered to surrender its weapons, wasn't it, in the town of Doboj during

25     the take-over?

Page 20974

 1        A.   Yes, there was an appeal.  By a certain time in the afternoon on

 2     the 3rd of May, they were invited to surrender their weapons and not

 3     engage in any combat, in any armed conflicts.  I don't know what the

 4     dead-line was, it may have been 1700 hours, but I am not sure.  I know

 5     that about an hour and an hour and a half before that dead-line, strong

 6     fire was opened in the -- along the stretch parallel to the Petko Djuric

 7     street, as we have mentioned.

 8        Q.   Is that strong fire by the Muslims, is that what you are

 9     suggesting?

10        A.   Well, it was on both sides that the fire was open and what ensued

11     was an armed conflict.  Up to then, there were no victims, no

12     destruction, nothing.  However, about an hour or an hour and a half

13     before the expiry of that dead-line that was contained in the appeal to

14     surrender weapons in order to avoid any armed conflicts, there was strong

15     fire opened on both sides.

16        Q.   Isn't the truth that from the expiry of the dead-line, the JNA

17     units, the army units shelled the Muslim districts of Doboj town, in

18     particular a place called Kasija -- Carsija.  Thank you.

19        A.   I was in town at the time.  I was in the police building and

20     first I heard fire being opened from infantry weapons and then I heard

21     artillery explosions as well.

22        Q.   During the course of the shelling, isn't it right that the mosque

23     and the Roman Catholic church were badly damaged?

24        A.   In the course of that armed conflict, in the course of that

25     combat, the Privedna Banka building was damaged and it caught fire, and I

Page 20975

 1     suppose there was damage inflicted on the other buildings that were close

 2     to that front line.  As for the Catholic church, I can say that it is at

 3     the end of Petko Djuric street and one of the mosques, or, rather, two

 4     mosques are right above the Catholic church.  I don't know how heavily

 5     damaged they were because I did not inspect the area at the time, I was

 6     not near the area.

 7        Q.   At the end of this shelling, large numbers -- the troops moved in

 8     and large numbers of Muslims were arrested and taken to prison; weren't

 9     they?

10        A.   The combat lasted on until very late.  It was already very dark

11     when the shelling subdued.  I don't know how late it was, I can't say at

12     the moment, but there were no street lights so I don't know who moved

13     around the town and what was going on.  I stayed in the police building

14     until very late that night and I could hear the shattering of the shop

15     window glass.  Then I called the police station and asked them to see

16     what was going on.  There was no more gun-fire but I could hear the sound

17     of the breaking glass.  A few police officers were sent out and it was

18     established that some groups had broken shop windows on a goldsmith's

19     shop and on a department store, I believe.  The two were both very close

20     to the police building and that's what I heard.  I don't know what else

21     was happening, it was dark, I did not move about the town so I don't

22     know.

23        Q.   You say that you heard artillery.  The only people who had

24     artillery that night were the Serb troops, weren't they, the JNA?

25        A.   Smaller calibre cannons mortars had also been obtained by all the

Page 20976

 1     sides that were preparing for future conflicts, but the truth is that the

 2     JNA was best equipped, that it had the best artillery tools and armoured

 3     equipment.  Whether fire was opened on both side or just one side, I

 4     don't know, but I know that immediately thereafter shells started

 5     falling, or rather, that it started happening in early May from Tesanj

 6     and other places, shells started falling on Doboj.

 7        Q.   Can I move to some of the other areas.  Vukovace [phoen] Civcije?

 8        A.   Civcije.  Let me help you.  Civcije.

 9        Q.   That was occupied by the Serb troops on the 4th of May after a

10     surrender of weapons had been ordered?

11        A.   I don't know exactly when that happened.  I don't know the date,

12     but I know that a demand was issued for every place that was known to

13     have weapons that it was requested that the weapons be surrendered.  I

14     don't know what exactly happened there.  I only know what I heard

15     subsequently.  I don't know have any firsthand knowledge about what

16     happened there.

17        Q.   And after that, during the course of May and June, people from

18     that village were arrested, taken to camps, and mistreated, weren't they?

19     You know that, don't you?

20        A.   I subsequently heard about that, yes.

21        Q.   Houses in that village were blown up as was the mosque; isn't

22     that right?

23        A.   The mosque was blown up.  I don't know when, I don't know on what

24     date.  And fire was set to a number of houses.  I know that houses were

25     not destroyed, but some were set on fire, I know that.

Page 20977

 1        Q.   What about Grapska, let's deal with that.  On the 10th of May,

 2     there was an ultimatum, wasn't there, to hand over their weapons?

 3        A.   I'm not sure about the date.  Again, I don't want to confirm that

 4     that was on that a date, but there was a demand to surrender weapons.

 5     There were a lot of armed people there.  I, myself, sometime in April

 6     passed through that village from the direction of Modrica.  There was an

 7     accident so I took the regional road and to my huge astonishment as I was

 8     passing through the village, there was a machine-gun nest.  In the centre

 9     of the village there was a shelter made of sand bags, and there was

10     53-millimetre machine-gun and there was a crew of several people.  So,

11     yes, they were armed, as you said.

12        Q.   But the village was then shelled, wasn't it?  I am sorry, I

13     should -- this one I can be rather more specific.  It was subjected to

14     fire from tanks, anti-aircraft missile mortars, wasn't it?

15        A.   Well, I'm familiar with the weapons, and when you get something

16     wrong I'm bothered.  There's no anti-aircraft missile mortars there,

17     anti-aircraft guns.  I know there was a demand on Grapska to surrender

18     weapons, and I know that demand was never complied with.  There were some

19     armed activities over there later and those are very fierce activities.

20     I wasn't there, so I wouldn't be able to furnish you with any detail,

21     unfortunately.

22        Q.   You do know the aftermath, don't you?  People that were taken

23     prisoner were killed, weren't they, by a man called Nikola Jorgic?

24        A.   Nikola Jorgic, again I can't give you any detail, I don't know.

25     However, during that period of time some ugly comments were heard about

Page 20978

 1     Jorgic's comport and conduct.  Now that we've mentioned that, that was

 2     one of the reasons why I had a strong argument with the Petrovic Defence

 3     because that Jorgic turned up in the army and then he turned up in the

 4     police station as a member of the reserve police, he appeared with his

 5     group.  And that's what I found from the very beginning, something that

 6     bothered me, something that I couldn't agree with.  And when I spoke to

 7     the Defence about that, his Defence was that he had been issued with an

 8     order to welcome those units and volunteers as TO members, and I

 9     continued to assert that.  There was no foundation for that pursuant to

10     the Law on National Defence, Territorial Defence could be engaged in

11     protecting public law and order, but this was not the case.  This was an

12     armed conflict.

13        Q.   Sorry, I am not quite clear.  It may be that something went wrong

14     with the translation.  You are recorded in English as saying:

15             "... something that bothered me, something I couldn't agree with.

16     And when I spoke to the Defence about that, his Defence, what he had been

17     issued was with" --

18        A.   Not the Defence, Obren, Obren Petrovic.

19        Q.   Right.  Okay.  We'll come to Jorgic in a moment, but it's right

20     also, wasn't it, that during the shelling, people were actually killed,

21     during the shelling of Grapska?

22        A.   Probably there were some casualties.

23        Q.   And after the army went in, they separated, didn't they, the

24     women and children from the men and the men were taken to camps and also

25     the prison in Doboj?

Page 20979

 1        A.   It's possible that that is how it happened.  I was not there and

 2     I don't know.  And at the time I did not have any specific information on

 3     that.

 4        Q.   I'm going to look at some of the information that was available

 5     to you at the time.  Can I just finish with one other place.  Sevarlije,

 6     was that shelled in mid-June?

 7        A.   Sevarlije.

 8        Q.   Yes.  I agree, I have enormous difficult with words that have Cs

 9     and Js in it.  But that's the one I'm talking about, was that shelled in

10     mid-June?

11        A.   I don't know when there was combat at that place.  There was also

12     an appeal to surrender weapons there as well, as far as I know, and there

13     were some combat there, some fighting going on, but what happened to

14     those weapons, whether it was taken or surrendered or not at all, I don't

15     know what was the outcome.  But I know that something was going on there.

16        Q.   So in each of these cases, you are saying that the shelling and

17     firing on these villages was justified because, as you understand it

18     because you say you weren't there, people were fighting, that the

19     villagers were fighting?  Is that what you are saying?

20        A.   Excuse me, I never mentioned what was justified or unjustified or

21     whether the force was proportional.  What I know is that there was

22     fighting there.  I never justified any burning, any setting on fire, and

23     I don't know how it came to be, whether it was through the action of

24     weaponry or whether things were set on fire.  What I do know is that in

25     some villages there was combat, what I don't know are the details.

Page 20980

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can we have a look, please, then there's a few

 3     reports that you say you would -- you had intelligence.  Let's see if you

 4     knew about these.  Can we look, first of all, please, at -- no, we can't.

 5     16B, please, which is document 20122.  Yes.

 6        Q.   This is a report signed "Milos" dated the 12th of May:

 7             "According to insufficiently verified reports, an artillery

 8     attack on the Muslim village of Grapska, Doboj municipality, caused very

 9     many civilian casualties, including children.  The Serbian defence forces

10     were forced to carry out the attack since there were strong Green Berets

11     forces in the village which were firing on villages inhabited by Serbs."

12             Were you aware of this kind of intelligence?

13        A.   No.  I haven't received this information and I never used to

14     receive information directly from the operatives who gathered information

15     in the field.  I would get compilations and mostly the information

16     relating to the enemy forces and then I compared that with the

17     information collected by the military intelligence and that way when we

18     combined the two, we were able to improve the quality of our

19     intelligence.  But trust me, I never requested any of the operatives to

20     tell me anything, nor did I know their operative names.

21        Q.   All right.  But did you get -- whether you saw or received this

22     one in particular, did you hear that there were -- through your

23     intelligence, very many civilian casualties, including children?

24        A.   It was later, after the events when I heard that there were

25     casualties.  I don't know their number, I don't know how many civilians,

Page 20981

 1     how many members of armed formations, and I don't know whether there were

 2     any children, and if so, how many.  I really know nothing about that.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at a report of the following

 5     day, which is document, please, 20004.  Tab 17:

 6        Q.   "According to the latest reports," says Milos, "there is no

 7     imminent danger of a direct attack on Doboj by units of HOS and the

 8     Muslim armed force, although the security situation is still difficult

 9     since units of the JNA and SOS do not control large parts of the Doboj

10     municipality, primarily those inhabited by Croats and Muslims."

11             Who was SOS?

12        A.   I don't know.  The author of this report ought to know.  I don't

13     know.

14        Q.   Do you agree that on the 13th of May, there was no imminent

15     danger of a direct attack on Doboj by units of HOS or the Muslims, the

16     Patriotic League, the Green Berets, whatever you call them?

17        A.   At that time there was a concentration of forces in the north,

18     that is from the direction of Derventa.  At Kotorsko and in Johovac.

19     There were parts of the Croatian Army brigades there, the

20     64th Rijeka Brigade, there are documents about that, then one brigade

21     from Osijek, from Slavonska Pozega, and I think also parts of the brigade

22     from Slavonski Brod.  And we observed that area constantly.  We were on

23     alert because you have to understand, it used to be one state, the

24     service was very well developed, it used to have great network of

25     informers and we used to receive good intelligence both from Croatia and

Page 20982

 1     from the areas controlled by Muslim forces.  An option to attack along

 2     the national road was seriously considered; that is coming from north,

 3     from Johovac, in order to connect with Tesanj and in that way to control

 4     the Bosna river valley.

 5        Q.   The short answer is no you don't agree with that assertion that

 6     there's no imminent danger on May 13th?

 7        A.   Well, I wouldn't know about the specific day, it's very difficult

 8     for me to speak about specific days from where I sit now.  I mean, it's

 9     been quite awhile ago, but there was definitely a possibility of an

10     attack coming from the north and the possibility of those forces linking

11     up with the forces along the Bosna river.  We permanently followed the

12     situation and that problem was definitely very much present at the time.

13             MS. KORNER:  Can we look finally on this part of the events at

14     document, please, which is already an exhibit, P1337.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, tab number?

16             MS. KORNER:  Tab 20.

17        Q.   Now, this is by the same author, Milos, and the report is dated

18     the 17th of May.

19             MS. KORNER:  Perhaps we ought to go to the second page so you can

20     just confirm that.  Sorry, can we go to the next page, please, in both

21     the B/C/S and in English.  Yes.  Okay, let's go back, please, back to the

22     first page, please.

23        Q.   The report begins that:

24             "In the Doboj region, the Serbian Territorial Defence in

25     co-operation with police units have started offensive operations against

Page 20983

 1     the armed formations of HOS and the Green Berets."  Pause there.  Do you

 2     agree that is a correct summary of the situation?

 3        A.   17th of May?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   I don't know about which direction this man speaks.  I can see

 6     that he mentions Doboj, Brod, and Derventa, but it doesn't quite agree

 7     with the date and also the Territorial Defence because on the 12th and

 8     the 13th of May, the VRS had already been established, so maybe, I don't

 9     know.  Listen, it's hard for me to remember things by days.  I also know

10     that sometime in May, I don't know exactly on which date, I went to

11     Belgrade.  I took off from the Banja Luka airport.  But let me tell you,

12     in this northern part, there were constant skirmishes, or to put it

13     militarily, the front was continuously active.  There was fire contact

14     all the time.  Well, I suppose that both sides were testing the forces on

15     the other side and I assume that there was some combat as this man wrote.

16        Q.   I actually only want to deal with two small parts of this.  In

17     the middle of the first paragraph, the author says:

18             "Many flats in Doboj were searched, many Muslim and Croatian

19     citizens were arrested."

20             Is that, to your knowledge, a correct assertion?

21        A.   Let me tell you, later on I saw in the files that there was a

22     number of detained persons.  How, on what basis, and who was detained,

23     that is something that I cannot comment on, because at the time I didn't

24     know what was going on in relation to this because the security work was

25     performed by the station.  But probably, or not even probably,

Page 20984

 1     definitely, yes, people were detained in large numbers.  That is what I

 2     saw from documents later on.

 3        Q.   We'll come on to the prison log-book in a moment.  It goes on to

 4     say:

 5             "During searches and arrests, there was incorrect behaviour by

 6     so-called Special Forces of the Serbian armed formations.  Apart from

 7     visible injuries suffered by the arrested persons, there was

 8     appropriation of private property by those carrying out the searches.

 9     Such behaviour met with the indignation and condemnation of all honest

10     citizens especially the mobilised Serbian TO who threatened to use arms

11     against the Special Forces from Banja Luka and the Special Forces

12     organised by a man called Bozovic."

13             Firstly, who are the special forces from Banja Luka?

14        A.   We already discussed this during examination-in-chief, and that

15     is when I told the Chamber what I know about how many people from

16     Banja Luka came and what was their status.  And I'm going to repeat it

17     once again.  I'm not aware of any special unit from Banja Luka as a

18     separate formation that acted independently, except a number of people

19     who performed security for the inspectors who arrived in order to help

20     the work of the national security.  That's all I know about people from

21     Banja Luka.  I really know nothing more than that.

22        Q.   Okay.  Pause there, we'll go on to the next one.  So, you know

23     nothing about any so-called Special Police under the leadership of a man

24     called Ljuban Ecim or Samardzija, first name also?

25        A.   That they were there as a unit and acted as a unit in the area of

Page 20985

 1     Doboj?  No.  Apart from the people I've already mentioned who had that

 2     particular status, and as far as I know they didn't arrive all at once.

 3     They had shifts, exchanging shifts.  So people who came first went back

 4     and then the following team came and I think it was about 15 or 16 people

 5     in total.  Or maybe in two shifts or in three shifts, I wouldn't know the

 6     details, but I think that the number is about 15 or 16 of them.

 7        Q.   Secondly, the man called -- Special Forces organised by a man

 8     called Bozovic?

 9        A.   As for the presence of Bozovic and the forces ascribed to him, as

10     far as I know, there was 10 to 12 people.  I think that Bozovic was a

11     major, and again, I have to emphasise that I do not know the truth but I

12     can tell you what I heard.  I heard that they arrived there in order to

13     help the evacuation of the JNA units who were then being evacuated

14     towards Serbia.  And then when the territory was cut off and the road

15     towards Serbia were closed, they remained.  They organised training camps

16     and what I know, if that's of any relevance here, is that that was

17     training of highest quality.  Everybody who underwent that training

18     successfully received a red beret as proof that they had undergone this

19     particular training successfully.

20             So the people who were trained in such a way were then sent to

21     JNA units, sometimes as squad commanders, sometimes in other status.

22     Later, there were people who had undergone this training who joined the

23     police.  So according to what I know, the Bozovic's people were 10 or 12.

24        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  That's all I want to ask you about that

25     document.

Page 20986

 1             MS. KORNER:  Last document I want to show you on this topic of

 2     the take-over, could we have a look, please at a video.  It's under tab

 3     16A, 202121, and there's a transcript.  There is sound for this.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Many of them after the furlough

 6     wished to continue their way.  Every war has its heros.  On this

 7     assignment, we met Joja, not the one from Mount Kozara, from the last

 8     war, but Joja from Krajina.

 9             "They call me Joja.  I'm known at all front lines, and let's keep

10     it that way.

11             "What front lines have you been at?

12             "Well, all over Serb Krajinas and in Posavina.

13             "Now you are here in Doboj, what has been your role and

14     assignment in Doboj?

15             "To protect Doboj from looting and similar things, along with my

16     men.

17             "Describe to us what it was it like in Doboj and in Grapska since

18     we are now here near Grapska?

19             "I only arrived in Grapska upon invitation to regarding pulling

20     out refugees who that set off towards our town, and that's where we

21     assisted in the -- in transport of the refugees.  But first some people

22     slandered me on the Sarajevo television and radio, saying that at this

23     place, which is also my neighbour's place, my machine men and I had

24     slaughtered and torched women and children.  Their inhabitants denied

25     this yesterday and I'm denying it right now again.  Neither I, nor

Page 20987

 1     Karagic nor Dobrivoje were here at the time of the fighting.  We neither

 2     celebrated nor built fire, nor did we throw their women and children on

 3     to the bonfire, into the fire.

 4             "In the meantime, I've learned that before you came to our war

 5     affected territories, you had a temporary job abroad."

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I think that's all we need.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Bjelosevic, do you recognise the man there?

 8        A.   Yes, that's Jorgic.  Nikola Jorgic, nicknamed Joja.

 9        Q.   Where is Mr. Jorgic at present?

10        A.   He is in Germany in prison.  I think that he was arrested there

11     in 1990-something and there was a trial and he was convicted in Germany.

12        Q.   And what was the trial about, do you know that?

13        A.   About war crimes.

14        Q.   War crimes committed during 1992 in Doboj; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, that's exactly the period.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted as an exhibit,

17     please.  It's tab 16A.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Is there an objection?

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I note that this document was not on

20     the original 65 ter list.

21             JUDGE HALL:  That apart, is there any objection?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, that is my objection.  The only objection I

23     have.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So there would be a double application admitted

25     65 ter list then as an exhibit.

Page 20988

 1             MS. KORNER:  I'm not sure.  If Your Honours think that's right

 2     because it's Defence case -- so our 65 ter list is not really an issue

 3     anymore, I don't think.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, yes, of course.

 5             MS. KORNER:  But if Your Honours think that it is ...

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P02324.  Thank

 9     you.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Let's move, please, Mr. Bjelosevic, to the question of the prison

12     in Doboj and the prisoners.  As I understood your evidence when you were

13     asked about this -- I'll come on to that later.  Could you have a look,

14     please, at a photograph of Doboj.

15             MS. KORNER:  Which is at tab 95.  P1297.  And it's at tab 95.

16     Not you, Mr. Bjelosevic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I close this please to get it

18     out of my way.  Yes, I understand what you are saying.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   This is a recent photograph, Mr. Bjelosevic, but can you indicate

21     to us, please, first of all, where the CSB is and then the prison.

22     You'll be given a pen.  If you could mark the CSB, once you've got your

23     bearings, as 1 and the prison as 2.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Thank you.  And is that the same position that it was in in 1992?

Page 20989

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P02325, Your Honours.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may articulate my objections

 8     now.  We had a number of the Prosecutor's witnesses from Doboj.  These

 9     pictures are on their list.  If I correctly understand, the purpose of

10     showing the documents at this stage by the Office of the Prosecutor is to

11     test the credible of the witness, not to further their case.  That is my

12     understanding.  And based on that, all these documents which we never saw

13     before which are having 20.000 something 65 ter numbers have been

14     disclosed to us, and Mr. Hannis, himself, confirmed that these documents

15     are used to test the credibility.  They are not introduced for the truth

16     of its contents, but to test the credibility of the witness.  Now, the

17     Office of the Prosecutor -- I'm not objecting to this particular

18     document.  We've been on the site visit.  I think we saw that it's not

19     contested at all.  But I must say I'm a bit confused now because the

20     previous video also could have been shown to any of the OTP witnesses.

21     If the video was used for the test of the credibility of this witness, I

22     don't see that he gave any wrong answer.  He confirmed everything what

23     Ms. Korner was putting to him concerning that particular issue that we

24     were discussing.  This person Nikola Jorgic.  Now, I must say that I'm

25     confused.  Is this a part of the continuous of the Prosecutor's case?

Page 20990

 1     That is my concern, Your Honour.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, the general prince -- I don't

 3     want to discuss it now because I've got such little time.  But in this

 4     case, I think this particular photograph has been marked by other

 5     witnesses, and I don't imagine its contention.  But it's important that

 6     the Trial Chamber know that this witness knows, if you see what I mean,

 7     but I really don't want to argue the principle of what the purpose of new

 8     exhibits is at this stage.  We've already been through this and it's a

 9     lengthy argument, but this one, I simply don't understand what the

10     problem is.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I was going to say that I didn't -- that the

12     cross-examination of the Defence witness includes the testing of the

13     credibility and/or reliability of the witness whether it is limited to

14     that, and I know of no principle whereby the ordinary rules by which

15     evidence comes in excludes evidence at this stage.  Nevertheless, I

16     shared not the present exhibit but the previous one -- I -- when I asked

17     for objections from Defence, I, too, was surprised.  I share your

18     surprise that it would have been -- that that new bit of evidence would

19     have come in at the instance of the Prosecution at that stage.  In terms

20     of the present photograph up on the screen, it isn't remarkable at all

21     that -- and I go back to the practice before we had the electronic

22     photographs, you have an album of photographs in and the witnesses,

23     several witnesses would be shown it and indicate where their

24     recollections were, so nothing really turns on that, it's merely a

25     tidying-up exercise.  It may be repetitious but it's ...

Page 20991

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I explicitly say I'm not objecting to

 2     this particular document because it's not contested at all.  What I

 3     expressed is my concern, because you see, Your Honours -- I see that the

 4     principle should be in my understanding that the Defence knows -- is made

 5     aware of the Prosecution's case, and that is the purpose of the Rule 65

 6     and the 65 ter list.  Now we are in the Defence case and the Office of

 7     the Prosecutor is introducing new evidence which have not been introduced

 8     during the Prosecutor's case nor is on the 65 ter list of the Prosecutor

 9     initially.  That is my concern and that is the concern that I wanted to

10     share with the Trial Chamber.  Thank you very much.  It doesn't concern

11     the document.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I don't want to waste time arguing.

13     We are actually rehashing the same argument over and over again.  But I

14     would like to get on -- the reasons, Your Honour, to finish this witness

15     and we can come back to this at a later stage, if that's all right.  I

16     don't actually agree with Mr. Zecevic's assertion, and I've said that

17     before, nor do I agree that's what Mr. Hannis said when he was dealing

18     with this matter.

19             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] ... so your application

20     is for the --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Your application is for this photograph which we've

23     seen before as marked by this witness to be given an exhibit number.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So it may be admitted and marked.

Page 20992

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   Now, I want to understand your evidence.  Is it your evidence on

 3     the prisoner, Mr. Bjelosevic, that you did not know who was in prison and

 4     had no control over what was happening --

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Ms. Korner, did ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, the document was given number

 7     P2325.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   Is it your evidence, Mr. Bjelosevic, that you had no control over

10     who was held in that prison or how long they were kept there?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   The system, if you like, however, was one that lay within your

13     authority as head of the CSB, didn't it?

14        A.   What system and when?  Can we be more specific.

15        Q.   Yes.  The whole -- not part of the Law on Internal Affairs that I

16     took you through this morning, but the fact that there are certain

17     prescribed norms under the law for how long prisoners may be held and the

18     right of prisoners to know why they are being arrested?

19        A.   I agree that anybody who is arrested has to know why.  A document

20     has to be issued to that effect by the person who arrested him, but I

21     don't know what your question is.  If that is your question, then I can

22     say that I agree that that should be the case.

23        Q.   Therefore, do you agree as the head of the CSB in Doboj, leaving

24     aside for the moment you say you weren't there, it was your

25     responsibility to ensure that the law was carried out, your own Serbian

Page 20993

 1     law was carried out in Doboj?

 2        A.   Not during that period of time.  I don't agree that I was the one

 3     who could ensure that, and as you put it yourself in your previous

 4     question, that I was the one who had that under my control, I don't agree

 5     with that.

 6        Q.   Well, I am sorry, Mr. Bjelosevic, leaving aside what you say are

 7     the special circumstances, as a matter of law, were you not responsible

 8     for the proper application of the Law on Internal Affairs as regards

 9     prisoners in Doboj?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.  You said no, that's fine.  Just tell me, because I haven't

12     got that much time --

13        A.   Allow me, I have to explain, please.  I'm kindly asking the

14     Trial Chamber to allow me to complete my answers --

15             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Bjelosevic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took it upon myself to tell the

17     truth and the whole truth.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   Yes, all right.  Give me the answer but, please, shortly,

20     Mr. Bjelosevic.  Why weren't you responsible?

21        A.   Because the prison as an institution was under the control of the

22     Ministry of Justice and not of the Ministry of the Interior.  That's the

23     first and most important reason.  Secondly, the prison at the time and

24     always -- it has always had its guard service that took care of the

25     safety of the building and of the persons in the prisons.  So I don't

Page 20994

 1     know how I was supposed to be responsible for the situation in the

 2     prison, especially bearing in mind that when once they are handed over,

 3     only the person who signed the decision on the detention can then take

 4     care of these things and nobody else.

 5        Q.   Now that's the point, sorry, not who is physically in charge of

 6     the prison and the conditions in the prison, but that the law is complied

 7     with for how long people may be kept in detention, being given the

 8     reasons for their detention, and so on.  That was the responsibility of

 9     the police, wasn't it?

10        A.   If the police arrested someone, then those people who did that

11     had the obligation to issue the decision on detention.  And there always

12     have to be some reasons to detain somebody, a procedure has to be

13     followed, such a person has to be informed about what it is all about, I

14     entirely agree with you about that.

15        Q.   All right.  And for that, Mr. Bjelosevic, you were the senior

16     police officer in Doboj, weren't you?

17        A.   I think that we have rehashed this topic on a number of

18     occasions, and yet I have to repeat myself.  Both according to the Law on

19     the Interior and other regulations, the public security station is

20     responsible for the security related matters in its area of

21     responsibility.  You had a chance to see that the Crisis Staff explicitly

22     ordered that very same thing in its decision.  It was the station, or,

23     more precisely, the chief of the station.

24        Q.   Right.  Let me ask you, please, to look at a document which is

25     P1315, tab 15.  Do you recognise that book?

Page 20995

 1        A.   All I can see is the log-book of extraction of the detainees, but

 2     I don't know what book this is.  I don't recognise the handwriting, I

 3     don't know what's in it, I don't know.

 4        Q.   Well, have you never seen a book like this before?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   All right.  Well, let's just have a look and see if you recognise

 7     some of the names.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the next page, please, in B/C/S.  I am

 9     afraid it doesn't help much in English because they didn't translate the

10     names, just what happened to them.

11        Q.   Let's deal with number 11, do you know who Jozo Mandic was?

12        A.   Number 11?  If I'm not mistaken, Jozo Mandic, if that's the

13     person, he was the president of the HDZ in Doboj.  I believe that that

14     was his name actually.

15        Q.   How old was he?

16        A.   I don't know --

17        Q.   You sure about that?

18        A.   -- but he wasn't young.

19        Q.   Over 70?

20        A.   I don't know whether he was over 70, but he was getting on.  He

21     was elderly.

22        Q.   So you don't know, didn't you sign a criminal report against him?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   All right.  We'll come to that later.  Number 12, Karlo Grgic,

25     who was he?

Page 20996

 1        A.   Karlo Grgic was a former commander of the police station in

 2     Doboj.  If I'm not mistaken during this specific period of time, he was

 3     already retired.

 4        Q.   And what -- I should have asked you, first of all, what ethnicity

 5     was Jozo Mandic?

 6        A.   Well, since he was the president of the HDZ, I assume that he was

 7     Croat.

 8        Q.   And Karlo Grgic?

 9        A.   As well.

10        Q.   And number 13 on the list --

11             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I remind you of the time.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes, can I just finish number 13 and then I'm done.

13        Q.   Number 13 on the list, who was he, do you know?

14        A.   Ilija Tipura.  Ilija Tipura was a member of the department for

15     foreigners.  He was a member of the service.

16        Q.   And his nationality?

17        A.   Well, I think he was a Croat, too.

18             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, thank you very much.  And thank

19     you very much, Your Honours, for giving me the extra time.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, well we take the adjournment for today.  We are

21     grateful to the support staff, the Court Officers, the interpreters,

22     security staff, the stenographers for facilitating this, and we are

23     grateful, too, for the co-operation of the accused, Mr. Stanisic and

24     Mr. Zupljanin, in the disruption of their schedule to accommodate the

25     extra sitting.  So we reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.

Page 20997

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.52 p.m.

 3                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of May,

 4                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.