1 Thursday, 26 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
9 everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution, we
11 have a slightly larger component than normal today. I'm Tom Hannis along
12 with Gerard Dobbyn; Case Manager, Crispian Smith; and one of our interns,
13 Marina Vilova.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence this
16 morning. Thank you.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I hope
18 that today I'm going to be luckier than yesterday. Aleksandar Aleksic
19 representing Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, we are advised that your witness is
21 available to begin, but before he is brought into the courtroom, are
22 there any other matters which we should address?
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I have to return back to the
24 issue of disclosure under the Rule 66(B). If you remember, Your Honours,
25 I will briefly just summarise. The decision of the Trial Chamber
1 concerning the Rule 66(B) disclosure in -- with the previous witness,
2 Mr. Bjelosevic, was that -- that the Defence did not provide enough
3 specificity for the Office of the Prosecution to comply with, with our
4 request which was made in January.
5 Immediately after the ruling, we provided a request, a specified
6 request in accordance with the Rule 66(B). The Office of the Prosecutor
7 informed us that they will not comply with our request. We then filed a
8 motion to comply, a motion to -- to compel -- sorry, motion to compel the
9 Office of the Prosecution to compel with our 66(B) request.
10 As Your Honours informed us, the matter is still pending before
11 the Trial Chamber. When I brought it up on Monday this week, we were
12 informed about that. Immediately after that, we again requested from the
13 Office of the Prosecutor the documentation specifically connected to the
14 witness which is about to enter the court.
15 Now, on Tuesday we received the response from the Office of the
16 Prosecutor that the Prosecution disclosed to us all documents which, in
17 their opinion, are Rule 68, and that they are not -- they are not going
18 to disclose the 66(B), according to our request, before the decision of
19 the Trial Chamber.
20 Now, Your Honours, it really leaves us in a very, I must say
21 awkward position, the Defence, because the rules are here. We did
22 everything which we can in accordance with the rule. The matter is
23 pending before the Trial Chamber and now we are about to get into new
24 witness, another witness, and as I said, it's halfway through our case,
25 and we still -- and we are, if I may say so, we are walking with a
1 blindfold in this matter. That is the information I wanted to give to
2 the Trial Chamber, and perhaps Mr. Hannis can, if he wants to respond,
3 and then I can go to the second matter which Your Honours invited me
4 to ...
5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, do you have a comment on this?
6 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honours, the request regarding this
7 witness was for anything addressed to him or signed by him in 1992. We
8 got that a couple of days ago. I see by the list of exhibits on the
9 Defence list that they have a number of items signed by this witness
10 which we didn't have in our collection, so obviously they have had access
11 to some materials that we don't know, we don't have, and those kind of
12 materials addressed to Mr. Andan or sent by Mr. Andan in the MUP in 1992
13 are certainly available to them through the state authorities, and the
14 motion is pending. We are awaiting your ruling. If you direct us to
15 comply with that request, we'll obviously do that, but I don't know if we
16 have anything that they don't already have because we haven't gone to
17 check that yet.
18 JUDGE HALL: Well, the exchange between counsel just now
19 illustrates the -- what is likely to happen with this witness and,
20 indeed, for the future. As both counsel have said, you are awaiting the
21 ruling of the Chamber on this matter which has been the subject of a
22 formal motion by counsel for the accused, Stanisic.
23 The issues raised by that motion are notwithstanding the
24 experience and jurisprudence of the Tribunal over the years of its
25 existence, such as that the matter is -- the basic issue is yet in a
1 state of refinement, and that is one of the reasons why the decision of
2 the Chamber has not been as speedily produced as counsel may have
4 The net result of all of this is that, as has happened up to this
5 point, and as I said earlier, is likely to continue to happen -- is that
6 such objections, applications, whatever, would be -- would have to be
7 addressed as and when they arise on an issue-by-issue basis with various
8 documents. There is no way of short-circuiting that, what everybody
9 fears is going to be a -- could be a time-consuming process. But to come
10 back to what I said earlier, the fact that despite the jurisprudence over
11 the years, this is still a matter for disputation, means that the nature
12 of the applications that tend to be made are ones that, particularly in
13 the adversarial system, counsel are not going to see eye to eye, and the
14 Chamber is going to have to, in exercise of its responsibility to deal
15 with these matters as the trial progresses, deal with them as and when
16 they arise. That's probably not a satisfactorily explanation at this
17 point for counsel, but the ruling, when it comes and which we expect to
18 be -- I'm not going to make any promises, but which we expect to be soon,
19 will seek to bring together the syncing and experience of the Tribunal up
20 to this point on this, what is obviously going to remain in this trial
21 and probably other trials, a contentious issue.
22 Your second matter, Mr. Zecevic.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, just a brief comment, Your Honours. The
24 problem, as we see it, is that this goes into the very crucial fairness
25 of the proceedings before this Trial Chamber in this case because, I'm
1 sorry to bring that up again, but the provisions of the Rule 66(B) have
2 nothing to do with our ability to gather the information from state
3 institutions or anything like that. It is a strict obligation of the
4 Office of the Prosecutor to disclose to us the materials which are in
5 their possession upon our request, and that is what we did.
6 Now, Your Honours, we -- as I said, we are not in a position to
7 know what are the documents because the Office of the Prosecutor does not
8 want to disclose them to us upon our request. So that brings us to the
9 point where we are not able to discuss with our witnesses a documentation
10 which might be produced in the trial, and I think that goes to the very
11 fairness of the proceedings before this Tribunal. Thank you.
12 JUDGE HALL: Again you have put your finger on one of the reasons
13 why this matter is not as straightforward as it might have first
15 MR. HANNIS: And, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I wanted to add that in
16 case, the Defence has access to the witness who certainly would be in a
17 position to assist with identifying what documents he might have signed
18 in 1992 and which ones he might have received and places to find those,
19 and maybe even assisted the Defence in making more specific requests to
20 us for a particular kind of document.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: The second matter Your Honours invited us yesterday
22 at the end of the session was about the -- our proofing note and the
23 reference made to -- under point 18. And, Your Honours, I agree that on
24 the face of it a number of matters which I provided in the proofing note
25 in -- under 18 are not directly relevant for the issues in this case.
1 However, all these issues are very, extremely important and relevant for
2 the credibility of the witness because, as Your Honours will hear, the
3 witness -- the witness's life has been full of ups and downs, and on a
4 number of occasions, the witness was -- was sacked from his duties and
5 work due to the allegations made by former ICTY Prosecutor, the high
6 representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina. And, therefore, I think that in
7 this case, in these specific circumstances, the -- his credibility will
8 be an issue which will be explored by the Office of the Prosecutor, and
9 for these reasons we think that the matters which I stated in -- under
10 number 18 of the proofing note are very important for establishing his
11 credibility. That is the reason why we intend to lead the evidence on
12 that particular issue shortly, as short as possible. Thank you.
13 MR. HANNIS: If I may, Your Honour. I had written to Mr. Zecevic
14 about this and indicating to him my understanding from my experience and
15 my practice in my jurisdiction. And the general rule is that when you
16 present a witness, you are not permitted to introduce evidence basically
17 to bolster the credibility of your witness unless and until his
18 credibility has been attacked.
19 Now, starting out on direct it hasn't been attacked because the
20 Prosecution hasn't asked him a question, so it's something that may come
21 up in redirect if the Prosecution attacks his credibility. On the other
22 hand, if this evidence is being sought to undermine his credibility for
23 some reason, well, then that's the Defence impeaching their own witness,
24 and we say that's not a proper thing do in direct examination either. So
25 for us, it's partly a matter of timing and only after, if it happens,
1 that the Prosecution raises questions or attacks his credibility on
3 JUDGE HALL: I confess that coming from a common law background,
4 my instinctual reaction was just as Mr. Hannis has indicated, but I'm
5 open [Realtime transcript read in error "hope"] to being persuaded, I
6 suppose, that there may be room for the Defence -- sorry, for the calling
7 party, in this case the Defence, reasonably anticipating a challenge that
8 is likely to be made to lay the foundation. But, for the moment, I'm
9 content to say nothing further and let's see how that develops.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL: So would the usher please escort the witness into
13 I see that the transcript records me as saying that "I hope to be
14 persuaded." What I think I said is that "I'm open to being persuaded."
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, sir. Would you please make the
18 solemn declaration that's on the card the usher has handed to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR ANDAN
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. You may be seated. And from your
24 responses to me thus far, I assume that you are hearing me in a language
25 that you understand?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
2 JUDGE HALL: Well, first of all, we thank you for coming to
3 assist the Tribunal by giving -- by agreeing to give evidence as a
4 witness. And I would begin by asking you your name.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Dragomir Andan.
6 JUDGE HALL: And what is your profession, or what was your
7 profession and what is your ethnicity?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have graduated from the faculty
9 of political sciences. I spent all my career in the police. My
10 ethnicity is Serb.
11 JUDGE HALL: And your date of birth, sir, is when?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the
13 12th of April, 1951, in Sarajevo.
14 JUDGE HALL: Have you testified previously before this Tribunal
15 or before any of the courts in any of the countries that comprise the
16 former Yugoslavia?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.
18 JUDGE HALL: You have been called by the Defence of the first
19 named accused in this indictment, Mr. Stanisic. And counsel for
20 Mr. Stanisic, who is at your left, would begin by asking you questions,
21 following which the counsel for the Prosecution, which is on the opposite
22 side, on your right, would have an opportunity to ask questions of you.
23 But before that, counsel for Mr. Stanisic's co-accused would also have an
24 opportunities to ask questions. There will then be an opportunity for
25 re-examination by the counsel calling you, and after that, or, indeed, at
1 any intermediate stage, the members of the Bench may have questions of
3 The time that has been indicated by counsel is that counsel
4 calling you expects that they would require 20 hours to examine you.
5 Counsel for the co-accused has indicated an hour, and counsel for the
6 Prosecution has indicated themselves about 20 hours in cross-examination.
7 Because the courtroom space is shared with other trials, the
8 court sits either in morning sessions or afternoon sessions. For the
9 time being, and probably for the duration of your testimony, we will be
10 in morning sessions which begin at 9.00 and the Court rises at 1.45 to
11 make room for another trial. However, that is not a continuous sitting.
12 For technical reasons having to do with the recording of the proceedings,
13 the sessions, the day's sitting is divided into sessions of not more than
14 90 minutes. This allows -- and the break is usually for 20 minutes which
15 allows the necessary technical adjustments to be made but also provides
16 for the convenience of witnesses and, indeed, counsel and everybody else
18 But notwithstanding those fixed periods, if for any other reason
19 you need to take a break, and we were advised that you, yourself, have
20 been suffering from certain minor issues having to deal with the
21 atmosphere in The Hague, we would -- you would notify us and we would, of
22 course, accommodate you.
23 When you came in, the first thing that happened was that the
24 usher had you read the solemn declaration. This imposes upon you an
25 obligation to give truthful testimony to this Tribunal which is empowered
1 under the statute which created it to impose severe penalties if you give
2 false or misleading testimony. And at the beginning of every day's
3 sitting, you would be reminded of that solemn declaration.
4 If you have no questions of the Bench by way of general --
5 anything else that we should -- could explain to you, I would invite
6 counsel for Mr. Stanisic to begin his examination-in-chief.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Examination by Mr. Zecevic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andan.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Mr. Andan, we heard that you were born in Sarajevo in 1951. Can
12 you tell me, what is your family situation now?
13 A. I come from a worker's family. My father took part in the
14 Second World War, and at the end of it, he was the non-commissioned
15 officer. His first and last post was in Sarajevo, where I was born. My
16 father died in 1954. My mother, my sister and I were left alone. Four
17 years later -- maybe I should first mention that my mother was 24 years
18 old when my father died. Four years later, she married again, a Croat,
19 called Trpimir Sepcic. From that second marriage, I have a brother and a
21 Q. Mr. Andan, are you married? Do you have any children?
22 A. I am married. I have two sons, Milos and Ivan. Milos is 32. He
23 graduated at business school. Ivan is 28. He is a lawyer. My wife is
24 an economist and we've been married since 1978.
25 Q. Mr. Andan, you said that you spent your whole career in the
1 police. When did you commence your employment in the Ministry of the
2 Interior which used to be called the Secretariat of the Interior?
3 A. It used to be called the Republican Ministry of Interior. I
4 commenced working there in March 1976 in the state security department
5 which was the secret police of the then state. There was public security
6 and state security, and I began working in the state security.
7 Q. Where did you begin working?
8 A. In the state security in Sarajevo. It had its zones and I was in
9 the security centre Sarajevo. That service covered all the
10 municipalities in Sarajevo. I don't know exactly what was the number of
11 the Sarajevo municipalities at that time. I think it was around 20
12 municipalities. There was, of course, also more structured hierarchy
13 about which I could maybe talk later in more detail.
14 Q. I have to ask you to speak a little bit slower because of the
16 Could you tell me what functions did you perform in the
17 Ministry of the Interior in the Socialist Republic of BiH. Could you
18 tell us what time-periods and what they were?
19 A. In 1983, we were about to complete the preparations for the
20 Olympic games in Sarajevo that were held in 1984. By is decision by the
21 minister and the undersecretary for the state security of BiH, a number
22 of us operatives in the state security were transferred to the public
23 security service. I was appointed the commander of police station in
24 Novo Sarajevo. That was the largest police station in
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.
1 I performed that function until 1986. After which, because of a
2 number of problems in the Stari Grad municipality, I was appointed by the
3 decision of the ministry to the post of the chief of the station which I
4 performed until 1990. My mandate lasted for four years, and after that I
5 was transferred to the Ministry of the Interior to the police
6 administration where I was an inspector.
7 Q. Could you clarify one thing. The municipality that you
8 mentioned, Stari Grad, is it one of the Sarajevo municipalities and in
9 which part of town is it?
10 A. That's one of the municipalities in Sarajevo. It's the oldest
11 municipality in Sarajevo. It comprises Bascarsija where the population
12 was predominantly Muslim, around 97 [Realtime transcript read in
13 error "90"] per cent of Muslims; 2 percent of Serbs; and 1 per cent of
14 others. So it's the oldest municipality in the town of Sarajevo.
15 Q. I think you said 97 per cent Muslims, we see a different number
16 in the record.
17 A. Yes, I said 97 per cent Muslims, 2 per cent Serbs and 1 per cent
19 Q. Mr. Andan, in 1990, in the BiH MUP, which function did you
20 perform at the time?
21 A. I was senior inspector 1st class at the time. But today in
22 Republika Srpska, it would be called chief inspector of the Ministry of
23 the Interior.
24 Q. Let us just explain the hierarchy. If we look at the senior
25 inspector 1st class, who was above you in the hierarchy in your
2 A. My immediate superior was chief of the department, and after that
3 assistant minister for police work or, later on, undersecretary for
4 police work.
5 Q. Thank you. The conflicts in April and May 1992, where were you
6 when the hostilities in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out?
7 A. At the beginning of the war in April 1992, I was senior inspector
8 1st class. So from 1990 until the beginning of the war, I performed the
9 same function.
10 Q. When did you transfer to the MUP of the Serbian Republic of
12 A. I'm not quite sure whether I should make a short introduction.
13 Q. No, just give us the dates and then we are going to go into
14 details later on during your testimony.
15 A. I remained in Sarajevo until the second half of May 1992, and
16 then I went to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republika Srpska.
17 Q. Until when did you remain working in the MUP of Republika Srpska?
18 A. I worked there until the second half of August 1992 and then I
19 was transferred to the military.
20 Q. How long did you remain in the VRS and what rank did you have in
21 the VRS?
22 A. Since I graduated from the reserve officer school in Zadar and
23 was accorded the rank of 1st lieutenant, later on I was promoted to the
24 lieutenant, I entered the VRS as a captain and I left the VRS at the end
25 of the war as the reserve major. I remained in the army until 1996.
1 Q. I think you said that your rank was reserve major at the end?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Sir, when did you return to work in the Ministry of
4 the Interior of Republika Srpska?
5 A. I was officially appointed on the 1st of January, 2000.
6 Q. What did you do between 1996 when you left the VRS and the
7 1st of January, 2000?
8 A. Unfortunately, or maybe luckily for me, I performed various jobs.
9 For awhile I was in the Belgrade harbour carrying sacks from truck to
10 truck. Later on, I worked at the large fruit market and vegetable
11 market. Later on, I worked for some friends who transported tomatoes and
12 cucumbers from Greece. So I would sell those things from 5.30 in the
13 morning until 4.00 p.m. I was even a waiter and a manage manager of a
14 cafe in Herceg Novi for awhile. I think it was in 1999. So I did
15 everything but what I was qualified for.
16 Q. What was the reason for you to return to the Ministry of the
17 Interior of Republika Srpska, and when did you start discussions in that
19 A. Well, that was, practically speaking, half of my career. I
20 needed another 20 years before I could retire, and I could not retire
21 working in the jobs that I did. So when I considered all the factors, I
22 concluded that it would be best for me if I returned to the Ministry of
23 the Interior to work on the jobs that I worked on for a number of years.
24 In 1999, I decided to get in touch with the then minister of the
25 interior Sredoje Jovic [phoen], I wanted to speak to him about my
1 possibly of my return to the Ministry of the Interior. We had a
2 conversation sometime in December 1999. The minister told me that they
3 are short of personnel, especially of personnel of my qualifications. So
4 he offered me to work as an inspector in the Ministry of the Interior of
5 Republika Srpska. So at the time I felt that this could give me some
6 sort of security, financial security and also other forms of security,
7 and that's why I decided to commence working again in the Ministry of the
9 Q. After your return to the Ministry of the Interior of
10 Republika Srpska, you said that you returned to the position of an
11 inspector in the ministry. What were your other functions in the
12 Ministry of Republika Srpska, and could you give us the time-periods?
13 A. I did not stay for long on the post of inspector, maybe six
14 months in total. I was then promoted to the chief of the general police
15 work department. The structure of the police has the department for
16 general police work and the department for traffic police, and there are
17 two chiefs. I was one of the chiefs. So as I said, after six months I
18 was promoted to the post of the chief of general police.
19 Q. The police administration, is that something that relates to what
20 we normally call uniform police?
21 A. There are two administrations in the ministry: The crime police
22 administration, they wear civilian clothes; and the police
23 administration, they wear uniforms.
24 Q. All right. If my math is correct, sometime around mid-2000 you
25 became chief of this general police, if I can call them that. How much
1 time did you spend there?
2 A. I will kindly ask you not to take my word for dates because I'm
3 very bad with dates. I have to say that this promotion of mine came
4 after the Bosniaks first came to Srebrenica in an organised fashion, so
5 the minister made a decision appointing me chief of security for that
6 event. Given the political tensions involved in the situation in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was entrusted with this very difficult task of
8 organising the unhindered arrival of Bosnians in Srebrenica so that they
9 honour their dead for the first time, that they visit the site where the
10 war crime had been committed and that they safely return to the
11 Federation. Most fortunately, this proved to be a job well done and I
12 think that that is when my promotion came.
13 As for the duty of chief of general police, I think I remained in
14 that position sometime until 2003, and then from that post I was
15 transferred to the post of inspector in Prijedor, the public security
16 station in Prijedor.
17 Q. How shall I put this, this transfer from the post of chief of
18 general police and the MUP of Republika Srpska to the post of inspector
19 in Prijedor, was this a promotion or was it something different?
20 A. For me, that was degradation. I don't know if we have enough
21 time for me to explain why that happened.
22 Q. Very briefly, please, just in the briefest possible terms.
23 A. In the municipality of Sokolac, the then chief of the
24 Security Services Centre, Zeljko Markovic, was killed. As chief of the
25 general police department, I sent special police forces up there to
1 search the terrain and to help in that first stage of the investigation.
2 When we game up there to the funeral, I was informed that not everything
3 was done in accordance with regulations and that certain segments had not
4 been taken care of properly. I told Dragomir Jovicic, the then minister,
5 that I did not agree with how part of the investigation had been
6 initiated, and I told him what should be done in the next stage, first
7 and foremost, to find the killer.
8 The orders I received said that I would be head of the
9 investigation team up there in Sokolac. On the next day, I left
10 Banja Luka for Sokolac. Before I left, the minister told me to do my
11 best to find the perpetrator, and then once we get that done, that I
12 could choose my post within the Ministry of Interior. I said to him that
13 it was my professional duty, first and foremost, to find the perpetrator
14 and that I was not considering different posts at that time at all.
15 We'd come half way to Travnik and I was told that the situation
16 had changed and that I should go back. I'm an operative by nature. I
17 called a few numbers and I learned that part of the political structures,
18 especially from Sokolac, were not in favour of my coming to Sokolac to be
19 in charge of the investigation. I also heard that they asked the
20 Ministry of the Interior that I return. As a matter of fact, they said
21 that they would not guarantee my safety there.
22 That irritated me terribly. When I returned to Banja Luka, I
23 said everything that I've said to you just now. I said all of that to
24 the minister, and I said, Why did you not let me go up there? And if
25 someone even started behaving in an offensive manner, you would know what
1 this was all about. I think that right now you don't want to bring the
2 investigation to an end and you don't really want to find the
4 Quite simply, there was no answer. I was most dissatisfied with
5 that kind of behaviour, and a few days after that in a weekly paper in
6 Banja Luka which is called "Reporter [phoen]," I gave an interview where
7 I explained everything that had happened and how work is being done in
8 the Ministry of the Interior.
9 Q. Thank you. If I understood this correctly, the outcome of this
10 interview was your transfer to Prijedor?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. What kind of work did you do in Prijedor and for how long?
13 A. I worked in the field of general crime. I think that I spent
14 five or six months there.
15 Q. What happened then?
16 A. What came then was a sudden call. It was sudden for me, at
17 least. It was the minister of the interior, Mr. Djeric, who called me to
18 come to Banja Luka to see him at his office to talk about my transfer.
19 Truth to tell, I was surprised by the offer that was made. After a
20 series of problems and after all the problems that had accumulated in the
21 security centre of East Sarajevo, he was offering that centre to me.
22 That is to say, he wanted to have me transferred to become chief of the
23 CSB Sarajevo.
24 MR. HANNIS: Before I forget, I just wanted to request that
25 counsel clarify which Mr. Djeric it is.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Could you please tell us which Mr. Djeric you are referring to,
3 we know of Mr. Djeric who was prime minister of the government of
4 Republika Srpska in 1992, so could you tell us who this Mr. Djeric is?
5 A. It is Zoran Djeric. I don't know whether he is closely related
6 to the former prime minister, but this is Zoran Djeric, who is now
7 vice-president of the PDP political party, the party of
8 Mladen Jovic [phoen].
9 Q. So these are two different people, right, the Zoran Djeric that
10 you are speaking about and the prime minister of Republika Srpska from
11 1992; right?
12 A. Yes, yes, these are two different people.
13 Q. After that, you became chief of the CSB of Istocno Sarajevo,
14 East Sarajevo, how much time did you spend there?
15 A. I was there until January 2005, roughly.
16 Q. What happened in the beginning of January 2005?
17 A. I received a call from the office of the president of the
18 republic, Mr. Dragan Cavic. Again, I'm saying please don't take my word
19 for the date. I know that it was 2005. I know that one morning or one
20 day at 11.00 I was supposed to come to his office for a meeting. Since
21 hierarchy is in my blood, I immediately told the minister of the interior
22 that the president of the republic has invited me to come, and he said
23 that I should go and that he would be there as well.
24 In the office of the president, I found Mr. Paddy Ashdown,
25 Mr. Cavic and Mr. Matijasevic.
1 Q. Could you please tell us, you mentioned three names, could you
2 please tell us who held which position?
3 A. Mr. Paddy Ashdown at the time was high representative for
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mr. --
5 Q. Sorry, I think that the spelling of Paddy Ashdown is different
6 from what the transcript reflects right now. It's spelled with a double
7 D. Thank you.
8 A. Mr. Dragan Cavic was president of the Republika Srpska at the
9 time. And Mr. Darko Matijasevic was minister of the interior of the MUP
10 of Republika Srpska. Of course, I addressed the president of the
11 republic and I said that I was hereby reporting. I was told that after a
12 series of analyses and conversations, I was selected to be the person who
13 would inter alia be in charge of the work that has to do with
14 The Hague Tribunal. So my role was, at least that is what I was told,
15 and later on that came to fruition, that in the forthcoming period I
16 would become director of the police in the MUP of Republika Srpska and
17 that our primary task was the arrest and prosecution of all persons that
18 are fugitives and are wanted by The Hague Tribunal.
19 Perhaps this was preceded by yet another event. While I was
20 chief of the CSB of East Sarajevo, I received intelligence to the effect
21 that in the area of Visegrad there are two or three mass graves where
22 Muslims were buried. We informed a person by the name of Don King, I
23 believe, about that. He is an investigator and a representative of
24 The Hague Tribunal in Sarajevo. We agreed to investigate all three mass
25 graves and to provide this documentation to them.
1 In order to be able to do that properly, we informed the
2 Prosecutor about that as well, we established an on-site investigation
3 team and we investigated these three mass graves where Bosniaks had been
4 buried. The call came after all of that. Probably the assessment was
5 that I did not want to have any crimes concealed, rather I wanted things
6 to be resolved as soon as possible.
7 When I spoke to the president and the minister at the time,
8 Mr. Paddy Ashdown said that if Republika Srpska does not apprehend
9 persons wanted by The Hague Tribunal by April 2005 there will be no
10 Republika Srpska. First of all, I was a bit perplexed at that point in
11 time, but I did agree, I said that I would do my very best to have all of
12 this resolved, that I would spare no effort, as far as my own efforts
13 were concerned and those of my co-workers, and that I would embark upon
14 this task very seriously.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we now briefly
17 move into private session just for a few questions that I have to put to
18 the witness.
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 21353-21356 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In your capacity of director of police of Republika Srpska, did
21 you hand in the indictment to Mr. Mico Stanisic?
22 A. Yes, and by your leave, I would explain how I did that.
23 Q. Yes. Just the main details, please.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is that necessary, Mr. Zecevic?
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe it is, Your Honours.
1 MR. HANNIS: Can we have an explanation as to the relevance.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Perhaps the witness can take his earphones off.
3 Your Honours, I believe it is very important for the
4 Trial Chamber and everybody to understand the attitude of Mr. Stanisic
5 and the attitude of his towards the indictment that he is standing trial
6 at this point now. And this is the witness who can give us details of
7 what was said, what was done, and what was the -- what was the reaction
8 of Mr. Stanisic to the indictment that he received on that point.
9 I think, and I'm -- I firmly believe it is important for the
10 Trial Chamber to hear this evidence.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if I may, there's a another source of
12 that evidence available. In addition, Mr. Stanisic gave a suspect
13 interview to the OTP for five or six days which is in evidence and
14 there's, I say, ample sufficient -- of his attitude contained therein.
15 The fact that he may have said something to this witness, and this
16 witness handed him the indictment in 1994, is not going take you very
17 far. It's an, I say it's an attempt to get in self-serving evidence of
18 the accused without the accused having to take the stand and being
20 In addition, this is not the situation where a policeman is
21 coming to court and testifying about having arrived at the murder scene,
22 talked to the accused who said, Oh my God, I'm sorry I did it. It's not
23 in the nature of an excited utterance. In 1994, there's quite a
24 likelihood that Mr. Stanisic was aware that something was in the works
25 and so the value of any utterance he made at that time is greatly reduced
1 because it's not in the nature of -- in common law, we talk about as
2 excited utterances which are treated as exceptions to hearsay because
3 there's a general opinion that they are more reliable. That's not the
4 circumstances here. And for that reason, I would object and ask you not
5 to permit this as its not relevant, and if it is relevant, it has no
7 JUDGE HALL: I agree with the submissions that have been made by
8 Mr. Hannis, Mr. Zecevic, and I don't know that I could improve on his
9 language, so let's move on.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Andan, we will leave this issue aside, given that the Chamber
12 decided that they don't need to hear your evidence on this.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, if you are about to move on to
14 something else, it's time for the break.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's time for the break.
16 JUDGE HALL: Before we rise, Mr. Andan, I would point this out to
17 you, you've indicated before that you haven't previously testified, and
18 we appreciate that a person who comes as a witness has a story to tell
19 with a whole background which he is anxious to get out. But in order for
20 evidence to be manageable in this Tribunal as with any courtroom, the
21 role that counsel plays is that counsel knows what he has to establish,
22 and therefore asks questions directed to what he seeks to do. So
23 therefore, it is important for a witness to listen to counsel's question
24 and answer the question, rather than volunteering excess information. So
25 if you would bear that in mind when we resume, we would be able to move
1 ahead much more swiftly. Thank you.
2 We resume in 20 minutes.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE HALL: We apologise for taking the Bench later than we had
7 intended to, but it would be appreciated that judges try to use the
8 breaks to get rid of some of the pressing matters which are always before
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic, you may continue.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, tell me, please, how long did you
14 remain the director of police of Republika Srpska? How long did you
15 remain in that post?
16 A. I think until May of 2006.
17 Q. Were you removed from that position on that occasion?
18 A. No, I wasn't removed. I resigned.
19 Q. And what was the reason for your resignation?
20 A. Prime minister of the RS government, Milorad Dodik, received a
21 letter sent by Ms. Carla del Ponte in which she said that I was part of
22 the organised crime ring and that such a person should not perform or
23 should not serve at such a high position in Republika Srpska. After that
24 letter, I had a conversation with Mr. Dodik and I asked that an
25 investigation be instituted after which I would resign, and he said that
1 I should resign first, following which I could be moved to another
2 position within the ministry, following which I could take legal measures
3 to investigate the claims made by Mrs. del Ponte.
4 Q. And what position were you appointed next?
5 A. A compromise was found. I was appointed deputy chief of police
6 education administration in the Ministry of the Interior.
7 Q. As for the other suggestion made to you, to undertake legal steps
8 in order to ascertain the truthfulness of allegations contained in that
9 letter, did you do anything about that, and if so, what?
10 A. The letter of Mrs. del Ponte contained the assertion that she has
11 certain information, some of which was confirmed by Vinzenzo Copola, the
12 chief of European police in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I wrote to Mr. Copola
13 first and I asked him it that if he has any incriminations related to
14 Dragomir Andan that he should forward them to the Prosecutor's Office,
15 and I am ready to appear before any court in relation to any act of mine.
16 In the mean time, I believe Mrs. del Ponte was replaced. I wrote a
17 similar letter to Mr. Serge Brammertz and I requested the state
18 prosecutor's office of the BiH to forward all allegation of Mrs. Del
19 Ponte to any court in Bosnia-Herzegovina before which I would then be
20 ready to appear if I really committed a criminal offence. I received no
21 answer to any of those letters. There was no other legal avenue open for
22 me. You are well aware of the fact that various international structures
23 such as the office of high representatives are institutions against which
24 no legal proceedings can be instigated.
25 Q. Did you undertake any measures before the state prosecutor's
1 office of BiH in relation to this matter?
2 A. Yes, after I wrote the two letters, I spoke on the phone
3 requesting to be received by Mr. Marinko Jurcevic in the state
4 Prosecutor's Office. Mr. Jurcevic received me. Present was also his
5 deputy, Barasin, and chief in charge of war crimes, whose name I think is
6 Mr. Senduk [phoen]. I requested them to provide me some explanations,
7 and I asked Mr. Jurcevic to detain me on the very day that I arrived in
8 Sarajevo. I wanted the full investigation be conducted, and if anything
9 is found against me that I should be immediately indicted; and if not, I
10 wanted them to issue some sort of certificates stating that the state
11 Prosecutor office is not conducting any sort of proceedings against me.
12 Mr. Jurcevic told me, either consciously or unconsciously, that
13 there is no investigation any sort of proceedings against me in their
14 office but the problem lies in the OHR.
15 Q. How long did you perform the duty of assistant for police
16 education in the Ministry of the Interior?
17 A. It wasn't assistant, it was deputy chief of administration. I
18 remained on that post until the 10th of July, 2007. Then Mr. Lajcak, the
19 high representative, made a decision banning me from work in all organs
20 of -- in all government organs. My personal documents were taken from
21 me, ID and passport, and I was precluded from crossing the state border.
22 That decision was taken on 10th of July, 2007. In the disposition of the
23 decision they wrote that I am a part of the support network for Radovan
24 Karadzic and that I'm financing him. I have a copy of that decision and,
25 of course, you also have a copy of that decision here.
1 Q. And what happened after that decision?
2 A. I requested to be received by the relevant official of the OHR
3 because I was seeking answers. Unfortunately, I was never received by
4 Mr. Lajcak. However, I was received by his deputy on a number of he
5 occasions, Mr. Gregor Jani [phoen]. In the first conversation, I
6 requested to be retired. I asked them, What do you think, how am I going
7 to live? And they told me, Well, that's your problem, but you cannot be
8 retired. So in addition to all the measures undertaken against me, I was
9 precluded from retiring, although taken together with the war time, I had
10 about 42 years of pensionable years. This was the most difficult period
11 of my life. If necessary, I can go into more details, but this is a very
12 difficult and painful subject for me.
13 Q. Were you fired from the Ministry of the Interior after that
14 decision made by the high representative on the 10th of July, 2007?
15 A. I received the decision on the 10th of July. On the 11th of
16 July, in the morning, 9.00 in the morning, I was called by the minister
17 of interior of Republika Srpska, Mr. Cargo and he handed me the decision
18 terminating my employment. I used all legal avenues available to me in
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina against that decision, from the lower court to the
20 highest instance which is the constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 However, all of them declared lack of jurisdiction in any sort of dispute
22 involving the Office of High Representative. I was told that I could
23 maybe go before the human rights court in Strasbourg, which I did.
24 In the meantime, I addressed the high representatives, all of
25 them between Miroslav Lajcak and Mr. Insk [phoen]. I probably wrote to
1 them around 20 times asking for various things. First of all, I wanted
2 them to permit me to visit my family in Belgrade, for Christmas, for
3 Easter and for New Year. I was not permitted to do that. So although I
4 didn't even have an apartment there, and I still don't have an apartment
5 there, which means that I am a tenant. I had to rent an apartment. I
6 was not permitted to visit my family even during most important holidays.
7 Q. The situation that arose on the 10th of July, 2007, how long did
8 it last? How long did you have this particular status?
9 A. After I've exhausted all legal possibilities that I knew of,
10 finding myself in a completely helpless situation, last year in September
11 I decided to undertake a radical move. I began a hunger strike. I did
12 that in front of the building of the Office of High Representative in
13 Banja Luka. I was on hunger strike for 22 days until I was taken to a
14 hospital and treated. I spent three or four days in hospital. After
15 that, I received another 15 intervenous treatments, and shortly after
16 that, I received an information from the Office of High Representative,
17 although it was mostly media that I saw it, that I and another 13 persons
18 were to receive the personal documents that they would be allowed to
19 cross the state border, and after that in the conversation with the
20 representatives of the Office of High Representatives, I asked whether I
21 would be allowed to retire. My request was granted.
22 So, all in all, I told you already that you shouldn't really rely
23 on me for precise dates, but it all ended sometime in April last year.
24 This was the first measure imposed on me.
25 The second measure, and that is the ban on employment in all
1 government organs, is still in effect, and I don't know how long it is
2 going to remain in effect. During all this time, no Prosecutor in
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina ever instigated any proceedings against me and it
4 has never been proved that I was part of the support network for
5 Radovan Karadzic. When he was transferred to The Hague Tribunal, I was
6 then hand a new decision alleging that I was part of the support network
7 for Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic. I do not understand any of those two
8 decisions, but these are the facts and these are the things that I have
9 to reckon with.
10 Q. Sir, did you give any interviews to the Prosecutor's Office of
11 this Tribunal, and if so, how many times and when?
12 A. I think I spoke to them twice, I don't know the names of persons
13 involved, and it's probably not important. Once we spoke about Brcko.
14 We spoke in Brcko. I don't know exactly in which offices. And the
15 second interview was in 2006 or 2007 in the Tribunal offices in
16 Banja Luka.
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you remember whether there were -- whether
18 you were interviewed the Tribunal investigators as a suspect?
19 A. I think that I was told quite openly during the second interview
20 that I was not a suspect. And as for the first interview in Brcko, my
21 understanding was that it was some sort of almost a friendly
22 conversation. The interview in Banja Luka was a bit more serious.
23 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to the relevant period now. Period
24 relevant for these proceedings. Until which year were you the chief of
25 the public security station Stari Grad in Sarajevo?
1 A. I was the chief there from 1986 until 2000. Excuse me, excuse
2 me, 1986 until 1990.
3 Q. You were the chief of the public security station of Stari Grad
4 in Sarajevo, and from that position you were transferred to the MUP of
5 the Socialist Republic of BiH. Why?
6 A. In 1986, I was appointed to the position of the chief pursuant to
7 the order by the then minister of the interior, Dusko Zgonjanin. The
8 reason was the fact that that particular station had the worst
9 performance in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were many problems in that
10 station and I was told to bring some order into the station. Every year
11 there was some sort of league table published for the police stations in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. After two years, we were in fifth place, and shortly
13 thereafter, in the second place, which means that the situation was
14 rather stable. And I thought that there were fortuitous conditions to
15 continue in that direction.
16 In 1990, there were also changes at the very top of the Ministry
17 of the Interior. Mr. Dusko Zgonjanin left his post. I think he was
18 retired. He was replaced by Muhamed Besic. Mr. Besic invited me to his
19 office. Before my mandate was over, at the time I expected that I was
20 going to remain on the duty for another mandate, I was told that
21 essentially they were satisfied with my work, but that it would be
22 inappropriate for me, a Serb, to be the chief of police station in the
23 territory with 97 per cent of Muslims. I was told that they were not
24 going to extend my mandate and that I could choose whether I wanted to go
25 to the crime police or general police in the Ministry of the Interior of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They thought that that was an appropriate solution
2 for me.
3 I accepted their offer in 1990 and I was transferred, or I
4 returned to the Ministry of the Interior, and I accepted the post of
5 inspector in the general police administration.
6 Q. What were your specific duties in -- on the post of inspector in
7 the Ministry of the Interior of Socialist Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina,
8 beginning in 1990?
9 A. Inspectors were in charge of various security centres. My duties
10 at the time were to follow and direct the work in Eastern Herzegovina. I
11 mean by that, the police stations in Eastern Herzegovina. At the time
12 the security centre in Trebinje had not been established because Trebinje
13 was under Mostar at the time. But another colleague of mine and I
14 divided the Security Services Centre in Mostar into two parts, so I
15 followed the events in the Eastern Herzegovina and he followed the events
16 in Western Herzegovina. We were mainly involved in supervisory
17 inspection. We followed and directed the work of police stations as part
18 of the organs of the interior.
19 Q. When you say supervisory inspection, following and directing, can
20 you give us a brief explanation of those duties?
21 A. First of all, we would go into the field and it was our duty to
22 check the legality of work of police stations, as well as the general
23 situation with law and order. Part of our duties pertained to the
24 situation in traffic and the general situation related to crime as far as
25 police is involved in following the crime.
1 Part of our duties involved the civil situation and the relation
2 of people in uniform towards, as we used to say then, working people and
3 citizens, as well as relations between superiors and inferiors.
4 Q. As we have heard, you started working on that in 1990. I would
5 appreciate it if you would tell us what your conclusion would be with
6 regard to what the situation was like in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
7 in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the whole.
8 A. After the first multi-party elections, the first ones since 1945,
9 and the rather stable political situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina when the
10 political parties that formed the government won the election in the
11 Ministry of the Interior itself, the situation became more complex. This
12 primarily relates to personnel, Serb, Muslims, and Croats who were
13 verified personnel, as it were, and successfully carried out their
14 duties. Once the new political structure came to head
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, personnel changes took place. What worried us
16 terribly was the fact that these tried and tested people who had been in
17 the service for over 20 years were being replaced by individuals who we
18 knew only sporadically or were not in the service at all before that. A
19 few of us professionals came to the conclusion that professionalism no
20 longer mattered, that it was party affiliation that did in order to
21 please this new political structure and in this way people got certain
23 Q. At the time were instructive dispatches of the MUP acted upon
24 properly in accordance with the law? And you as an inspector and your
25 colleagues, did you check whether these instructive dispatches of the MUP
1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina were indeed being acted upon in the territory that
2 you visited?
3 A. In part.
4 Q. Tell me, the town of Ljubuski is it in Eastern Herzegovina? And
5 in this period between 1990 and 1992, that is, did you visit the public
6 security station in Ljubuski, and, if so, what did you find there?
7 A. I was instructed by Mr. Avdo Hebib, chief of administration, to
8 go to Ljubuski because the commander of the police station who had been
9 there was replaced and an ethnic Muslim was supposed to be appointed to
10 that position. So I was supposed to be present during the hand-over of
11 duty, and for awhile I was supposed to stay there and help this new
12 commander of the police station.
13 To my surprise, that was the first case of this kind, I was
14 accorded full hospitality there. But if you will allow me, with all due
15 apologies to the Trial Chamber, I will directly quote what was said, that
16 a Turk would never become the chief of the public security station in
17 Ljubusk i, that I can have lunch there, that I can have a cup of coffee
18 and go back to Sarajevo, and that I'm perfectly free to report to my
19 superiors in Sarajevo, that they were unwilling to accept that kind of
20 decision in Ljubuski.
21 Q. Just a moment, please. Tell us, the chief of this public
22 security station was of what ethnic background?
23 A. He was a Croat.
24 Q. The town of Ljubuski, is it predominantly populated by Croats?
25 A. As far as I know, the majority were Croats, perhaps about
1 80 per cent, and 20 per cent were Muslims. I think that there was no
2 Serb population in that area, and it is a municipality that is in
3 Western Herzegovina.
4 Q. Tell me, do you remember approximately when this happened?
5 A. I think that it was in 1991. As a matter of fact, the second
6 half of September, I think, because I know that it was the grape
7 harvesting season and that there was fruit in abundance there.
8 Q. Thank you. You had just started answering and I interrupted you.
9 You were saying as you went back to Sarajevo and so on.
10 A. As I was getting out of town, out of Ljubuski that is, on the
11 right-hand side there is, probably to this day, a football stadium. At
12 that stadium we then saw about 2- to 300 young men there, that would be
13 my estimate. They were wearing camouflage trousers and black shirts with
14 the checkerboard sign, and they were exercising. Since this is close to
15 the road where we were passing, we could clearly see next to the
16 checkerboard sign or emblem on the left sleeve it clearly said HOS. That
17 was my first encounter with a paramilitary structure. That is what I
18 then saw.
19 Q. Since Mr. Hebib, your chief, had sent you there, the chief of
20 your administration that is, did you report back to Mr. Hebib about this
22 A. It was our duty to report every time we went out into the field
23 and when we came back to headquarters. Of course I wrote up an
24 Official Note about everything that I saw at the Ljubuski stadium. I
25 forwarded that and there were no reactions.
1 Q. Tell me, sir, Mr. Andan, at the time when you were senior
2 inspector 1st class in the Ministry of the Interior of the
3 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who did you share an office
5 A. Enver Dupovac was my colleague. He held the same rank as I did.
6 Q. And your direct superior was Avdo Hebib, if I understood you
8 A. Yes, the chief. The chief of the administration was Avdo Hebib,
9 and Cedo Kljajic was his deputy.
10 Q. Tell us, was Mr. Avdo Hebib a professional policeman?
11 A. Mr. Avdo Hebib worked at the infirmary of the republican MUP of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a psychologist. For many years he had tried to
13 come to work in the Ministry of the Interior. He had a problem there
14 because his father, at least according to the checks that we ran in the
15 secret police at the time, was a member of the so-called
16 Handzar Divisions during the Second World War. He had been declared a
17 war criminal and, as such, Avdo was not eligible, according to the
18 criteria that were in place at the time, to work in the Ministry of the
19 Interior. As for this wish of his to be transferred to the Ministry of
20 the Interior, he managed to have it fulfilled when the SDA and other
21 political parties came to power. He was immediately appointed assistant
22 minister or undersecretary for police affairs.
23 Q. Mr. Andan, at the time what kind of personnel policy was
24 conducted in the Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of
1 A. I think that the personnel policy that was pursued was an
2 unprincipled one, especially as far as Bosniak personnel were concerned.
3 I'm going to give you two examples. As chief of the public security
4 station, I initiated misdemeanour and criminal proceedings against a
5 policeman. His employment had been terminated by a decision of the
6 ministry and I don't know what the punished meted out was for the
7 offences that he had committed. When a multi-party system was introduced
8 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, one morning this policeman showed up at the
9 entrance of the republican SUP and he was in charge of allowing people to
10 enter the building.
11 The second example was Celo Bajramovic, the deceased
12 Celo Bajramovic by now. In 2003, we arrested him while I worked in
13 Novo Sarajevo. He was convicted to 14 years in prison, which was a
14 precedent in terms of imprisonment policy at the time because due to
15 general crime he was convicted to 14 years in prison. One morning as I
16 was setting out to work, there was an automobile that had been turned
17 upside-down in the street, and I asked the policeman, Who did this? And
18 he said, Don't ask. This is a disaster. And I said, Why disaster? And
19 he said, Bajramovic took out his official ID and did that and said do
20 whatever you want with the car. This is just a small example of what was
21 going on in that year in 1991 as far as personnel is concerned.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] By way of an illustration, could
23 the witness please be shown 1D247 -- 347, tab number 1. Your Honours, I
24 have a binder of documents that has been prepared. Could I please have
25 the assistance of the usher so that the witness could be given these
2 Q. Mr. Andan, first a question: What was the name of the then
3 assistant minister for personnel affairs in the MUP of the
4 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Before that, he was the manager of the Sarajevo brewery. His
6 name is Ibro Selimovic, I think.
7 Q. Do you know whether this gentleman Hilmo Selimovic, at some point
8 in time during 1991, was actually replaced by another individual?
9 A. Yes. I think that he did not hold that position for a very long
10 time. If I remember correctly, Mr. Mirsad Srebrenikovic replaced him,
11 but, as far as I can remember, he came from Zagreb to replace him.
12 Q. Please look at this document, the document in front of you. It
13 is signed, or rather, what is typewritten is "Secretary of the SDA,
14 Hasan Cengic." This is communication of the Party of Democratic Action,
15 and could you please give us your comment in respect of this document.
16 What I'm specifically interested in is whether this document illustrates
17 the situation that prevailed in the personnel service in the Ministry of
18 the Interior of Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes, fully. It fully illustrates the situation which came about
20 once Jusuf Pusina came to the position of chief of police as well as
21 Mirsad Srebrenikovic. The personnel policy became radicalised. While
22 Selimovic was in his post as well as Avdo Hebib, they did take care of
23 the long serving personnel who performed their duties in a lawful manner.
24 Once Mr. Pusina and Mr. Srebrenikovic who was unknown to all of us, and
25 later on we heard that he had come from Zagreb, and one of my colleagues
1 started describing their policy as though we had been -- we had started
2 appointing people who had just come from the mosque. I don't know
3 whether Mr. Srebrenikovic used to work as a religious person or he worked
4 in the religious department of the service in Zagreb, I'm not sure, but I
5 know that he came from those kinds of circles.
6 It is clear from this letter that the Party of Democratic Action
7 had a direct influence over personnel policy and it instructed all
8 security centres that the chief was to pursue a personnel policy that was
9 in accordance with what the SDA wanted. The SJB personnel decisions also
10 had to be approved by the SDA and the same principle applied at higher
11 levels, too.
12 Q. In your previous answer when you quoted the comment of your
13 colleagues concerning Mr. Srebrenikovic and his appointment, you gave us
14 the name and the last name of that colleague of yours who said that --
15 however, it wasn't recorded in the transcript because you spoke quite
16 quickly. Would you please give us your [as interpreted] name, who it was
17 that uttered that comment and could you explain us who that person is?
18 A. That is Kemal Sabovic.
19 Q. And Kemal Sabovic was of which ethnicity?
20 A. He was a Bosniak. He was of Muslim ethnicity. He used to work
21 in the police administration, and he was chief of the general police
22 department. He was a colleague of mine. Kemal Sabovic and I have known
23 each other for almost 40 years.
24 Q. Did you socialise, were you on friendly terms with Mr. Sabovic?
25 A. He was the only person from the service that I socialised with
1 after business hours. We would even visit each other in our homes. We
2 were good friends and good family friends.
3 Q. Did he also work in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the police administration?
5 A. Yes, we got to know each other back in 1983 at work when I was
6 appointed chief of the police station in Novo Sarajevo. At that time he
7 was the assistant to the municipal secretary for MUP. I then moved to
8 Stari Grad municipality and he became an inspector in the republican MUP.
9 Q. Sir, let us now go back to the personnel issues in the Ministry
10 of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of the
11 Interior. We discussed this document. Tell me, please, the other
12 national political parties, and by that I'm referring to HDZ and the SDS,
13 did they have a similar personnel policy similar to that of the SDA?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And these other political parties, did they also appoint persons
16 who were not up to the tasks that they were to fulfill in those posts?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I want document 65 ter 781D1, tab
19 1D, to be shown to you.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, as far as I can see, the document
21 that we still have on the screen is MFI'd. And so my question is whether
22 you are putting this document to the witness as an attempt to have it
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, for reminding me. Yes, I
25 would like to have this document de-MFI'd at this point. Thank you very
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record, Your Honours, this is
4 Exhibit 1D347.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
9 Q. Sir, this document before you now is a dispatch from the MUP of
10 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina signed by the deputy
11 minister, Vitomir Zepinic, dated 20th of February, 1992. Would you
12 please give us your comment, if you can?
13 A. Practically in the same wing of the building of the republican
14 MUP, in the administration there were all departments of the
15 administration including the department for defence preparations. We
16 were terribly surprised, if not shocked, when we learned of the content
17 of this dispatch, namely that Mr. Jasarevic would take over the task of
18 defence preparations. We thought that he was not competent for such an
19 important post, that he was not up to it. He was assistant secretary or
20 assistant chief in the public security station for the same matters.
21 So this was a huge jump up from the level of the municipal
22 secretariat up to the ministry level. This was an unprecedented jump in
23 the history of the Ministry of the Interior, and this was yet another
24 example that qualification, professional qualifications were not taken
25 into account and that the only feature that was important was party
2 What was shocking for us is that he was supposed to be in charge
3 of the entire reserve forces of the entire police in Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina. In lower levels, each police station had its own reserve
5 police force, and as the levels went up, the same rule applied and all of
6 us who worked for the police administration -- was a huge chunk to bite
7 for him and that this was a completely disastrous decision that was taken
8 in the police.
9 Q. When you say "we" in the police administration, who do you have
10 in mind specifically?
11 A. It is probably difficult to describe this situation to anybody
12 who was not in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time. There were few people
13 that one could speak openly to and tell them that a certain decision was
14 not a good one, was not a proper one. In that period of time in 1992,
15 there were already national split taking place between the employees.
16 Even those who used to be friends during the socialist regime started
17 splitting along the ethnic lines.
18 One of the very few people that I could still talk at the time
19 was Mr. Kemal Sabovic who completely shared my opinion concerning
20 Mr. Jasarevic. Mr. Sabovic did not support any political party and this
21 is why he was able to speak so freely to me. He was also not a favourite
22 of the SDA, even though he was a Muslim. And this is why he probably
23 felt he could speak his mind to me.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would
1 tender this document into evidence.
2 MR. HANNIS: Well, my only objection was it wasn't shown to
3 Mr. Zepinic when he was here and it was his document. However, based on
4 the witness's answers, it appears that this did actually happen and so I
5 don't object to that. But I do object to using documents that could have
6 been shown to the author when they were here before.
7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D546, Your Honours.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, can I give another
10 explanation concerning this document.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Yes, please go ahead.
13 A. It is true that Mr. Zepinic signed this document. However, one
14 has to bear in mind that political parties or representatives of
15 political parties agreed who would be appointed to what post, and then
16 this was just given to Zepinic to sign as something that had been
17 drafted, to sign and implement. It's not that I'm trying to justify the
18 actions of Zepinic, but this is how things were done at the time.
19 Q. Thank you. Sir, let me show you another document, 65 ter 822D1,
20 tab 1C. Sir, this document pertains to the events of 29th of February
21 and 1st of March, 1992, in Sarajevo and the subsequent barricades that
22 appeared in the days to follow in the streets of Sarajevo. Would you
23 please briefly explain to us what you know about these events and the
25 A. Do you want me to clarify the events of March 1st firstly and
1 then move on to subsequent events?
2 Q. Yes. First the events that took place on the 1st of March, and
3 then the barricades.
4 A. The intelligence that we had and also the information that I
5 acquired later on clearly indicated that on the 1st of March in
6 Bascarsija behind the old Orthodox church, a member of a wedding party
7 was killed, a prominent member of a wedding party. And that this was the
8 fuse that set alight the events that followed in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 The service of the interior affairs at the time basically
10 obstructed the investigation aimed at finding the perpetrator and
11 initiating prosecution. This mostly had to do with private checks and
12 privately acquired information by way of which I learned that the murder
13 was committed by Rasim Delalic [phoen], nicknamed Celo. What is
14 completely incredible is that the then commander of the Stari Grad police
15 station, who was the commander at the time when I was chief of that
16 station, and his name was Ismet Dahic took him in the official business
17 vehicle of MUP to Travnik and hid him there.
18 Q. Let us just clarify this. This is the event which took place on
19 the 1st of March, 1992?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You were chief of the public security station in Stari Grad until
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If you know, when did Ismet Dahic start working as commander of
25 the public security station in Stari Grad?
1 A. Given that at the time the ethnic composition was important, I
2 represented the Serbian community, ethnically speaking, so it was natural
3 that my first assistant would be of a Muslim ethnicity. I knew Dahic, he
4 was head of the armoured unit within the special units of the then
5 ministry. So I suggested to Grgisa Munac [phoen], I asked him to allow
6 me to appoint him commander of the Stari Grad SJB, and he came to that
7 post in late 1986.
8 Q. So if I understand you correctly, it was upon your recommendation
9 that Ismet Dahic was appointed commander of the Stari Grad SJB in
11 A. It wasn't just him. Jusuf Pusina had also my recommendation and
12 many others. Dahic was appointed commander of the Stari Grad SJB upon my
13 recommendation, yes.
14 Q. Is it because of this fact that you say now that you were
15 surprised when you found out that Ismet Dahic used an official vehicle to
16 transport the perpetrator of the crime committed on the
17 1st of March, 1992, to Travnik?
18 A. Well, he did his job properly. He was a good commander of a
19 police station. And I'm surprised that he did it.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Your Honour, I see the time. Is it an appropriate moment for the
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we would resume in 20 minutes.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, that evening after the event at
5 Bascarsija, were you called to the Ministry of the Interior?
6 A. I think it was the same evening. We received a call through the
7 duty service in the Ministry of the Interior, I think at around midnight,
8 to come to the Ministry of the Interior but we were not told what were
9 the reasons. I was one of the people who came to the ministry in order
10 to find out what this was about. We were told that we would be told the
11 reasons when we appeared for the meeting.
12 Q. Who told you the reasons and who attended the meeting in the
13 Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. Unfortunately, nobody told us any reasons. We were just
15 shuffling our feet in the offices without knowing why we had to come
16 there, and then at one moment one of the colleagues said Serbs had put up
17 the barricades at the Vrbanja bridge and cut the city two halves, but
18 there were no orders for us to undertake any activities. Sometimes
19 toward the morning, somebody thought that it would be good to go to
20 Bascarsija because the shops there open among the first shops in
21 Sarajevo, so we simply wanted to see whether we could get some of our
22 bread rolls and something else to eat.
23 So a decision was made that Mr. Music, a colleague of mine, and I
24 should go and bring some food. I would just like to say one more thing,
25 Teufik Music is a colleague of mine who worked with me in both state
1 security and public security. He lives in the Stari Grad municipality in
2 the settlement called Vratnik. We went by car towards Bascarsija and we
3 were stopped at the City Hall. The people who stopped us wore uniforms
4 that we were unfamiliar with at the time. There were some people in
5 civilian clothes and some people in uniform there. They all had long
6 barrels. So of course we stopped the car. Both Teufik Music and I
7 recognised one Sulejman, Suljo, Agic while I was the chief, who was a
8 shift leader in the public security station in Stari Grad, so we
9 exchanged a few words and they let us go.
10 Teufik wanted to go up to Vratnik to pick up some things from his
11 house and that's why we first went to Vratnik.
12 Q. Just one detail. This Suljo Aic, was he an active policeman at
13 the time in 1992?
14 A. Yes, as far as I could see, there were about six or seven of them
15 and he was the only active policeman among them.
16 Q. And who were the others?
17 A. Some of them, two or three of them, wore uniforms of the reserve
18 police force. I could easily recognise them because they wore winter
19 uniforms made from heavy cloth. All the reserve members of the reserve
20 police force in Bosnia and Herzegovina wore that kind of uniforms. And
21 the remaining two or three people simply had leather jackets, jeans,
22 military boots, and a rifle. Now, to which organisation they belonged, I
23 really wouldn't know, but it was very unusual to see a man wearing
24 civilian clothes taking part in stopping traffic and wearing a long
25 barrel on a shoulder.
1 Q. I interrupted you. You said that you went to Vratnik, what
2 happened there?
3 A. I sat in the car while Teufik went up to his apartment to pick up
4 some stuff, I don't know what. That settlement is very densely built, we
5 would call it Mahala. The streets and side-streets are very narrow. And
6 all of a sudden from all those houses, I saw people coming out wearing
7 arms and going up towards the fire station. I was extremely surprised to
8 see that because I knew that nobody had issued the order to mobilise the
9 reserve force. And when Teufik returned, I told him Tufo, that was his
10 nickname, Tufo, what's all this about? And he told me, Ah, come on
11 forget, you know people are organise themselves, it's really nothing. I
12 mean, just look at the Serbs. It's really nothing. But it was something
13 very strange.
14 Later, we went down to Bascarsija, we took some hot bread rolls
15 and went whack to the ministry building. We gave the food to our
16 colleagues and we continued sitting there without any information,
17 without any orders. And then, maybe it was already 9.00 in the morning,
18 I said that I was going to return to my apartment. Now, this meant that
19 I would have to cross the barricades to reach my apartment. At some
20 moment we were told we have no idea who called you and why, but you can
21 go back to your homes. However, you cannot pass through the barricades.
22 So whoever lived between the Vrbanja bridge and the centre could go, but
23 people who lived behind the barricades, well, it was dangerous to pass
24 through the barricades, we were told. I took the risk, nevertheless. I
25 reached the Vrbanja bridge, I left my car in one of the side-streets.
1 That's when I saw armed people. Some of them had stockings on their
2 faces. Some of them had caps. There were very few people whom you could
3 identify in a normal manner. I was approached by a rather large man. I
4 remember him well. He asked me where I was going. And I told him that I
5 live at Dolac Malta, that I was in uniform and that I had to pass
6 through. Somebody behind him said, Let him go. I asked him to wait
7 awhile so that I could get my car and that's how I managed to cross
8 through this barricade and reach my apartment.
9 Q. Mr. Andan, do you remember whether Cedo Kljajic was in the MUP
10 building of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina during that
11 night together with you?
12 A. As far as I can remember, he was.
13 Q. You see the document on the screen before you. Its title is
14 "Conditions for Negotiating." It's signed by the Crisis Staff for the
15 Serbian people of the BiH. The remaining pages contain certain articles
16 and amendments to the constitution.
17 Now, could you tell me in relation to the barricades, what was
18 the intelligence that the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina had at the time, or more precisely, who was behind the
20 barricades in Sarajevo?
21 A. By subsequent checks, we learned that the chief of this
22 Crisis Staff was Rajko Djukic. And together with Momcilo Mandic,
23 according to our intelligence gathered at the time, the two of them were
24 the organisers of the barricades on the 1st or the 2nd of March. I don't
25 remember the exact date. As for the other persons, I am unable to speak
1 about them. I only know that Momcilo Mandic as the person who organised
2 the barricades, came to the Ministry of the Interior. Kemal Sabovic went
3 into the car with him and took him through the barricades. He was trying
4 to convince him that they simple wanted a different treatment for Serbs
5 as opposed to two other ethnicities, in the context of the current events
6 in Sarajevo. He said that it was some sort of a revolt of the people,
7 the people who did not want the situation to continue the way it was. I
8 know that the facts that Kemal passed through the barricade was something
9 that members of the SDA -- took it against him. I think that he was
10 reprimanded, to say the least, because he responded to the request of
11 Momcilo Mandic to pass through the barricades together.
12 Q. Mr. Andan, at that time did you in the police administration have
13 any intelligence that Mico Stanisic had any role whatsoever in the
14 barricades on the 2nd of March, 1992, in Sarajevo?
15 A. I did not have any such information.
16 Q. Have you heard from any of your colleagues subsequently that any
17 of them had any such information?
18 A. Truth be told, I exchanged information mostly with Kemal Sabovic
19 and he never told me that Mico had anything to do with the organisation
20 of the barricades in Sarajevo.
21 Q. Thank you. Now that we have touched upon Mr. Stanisic, tell me
22 did you -- do you know Mr. Mico Stanisic, and if you do know him, how
24 A. I don't know the exact date. I know that the year was maybe 1976
25 or 1977. I think I first saw him in Stup where I was born, near Ilidza.
1 He was dating a neighbour of mine at the time, that's when I first saw
2 him. And I think that she said to me then, I mean, she told me a few
3 days later that he was a member of the Ministry of the Interior and that
4 he was employed at the city secretariat of the interior in Sarajevo.
5 Q. Tell me, the document that is before us, you told us a moment ago
6 that this Crisis Staff was headed by Rajko Djukic. Where is Mr. Djukic
8 A. Yes. This Crisis Staff was headed by Rajko Djukic. It should be
9 said that Rajko Djukic, as far as I know, was in charge of personnel
10 affairs in the Serb Democratic Party. He was the director of the mine in
11 Milici, and I think that he is still in Milici as the ownership of the
12 mine was transformed.
13 Q. Tell me, do you know this proclamation of the Serb people of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the one that we see before us now?
15 A. No. At the time I hadn't seen it.
16 Q. Thank you. Sir, after you met or saw Mico Stanisic, as you say,
17 in 1976 or 1977, did you see him after that, and if so, could you tell us
18 more about it?
19 A. After this first encounter of ours, what I found out about
20 Mico Stanisic was that he had completed the school of the Ministry of the
21 Interior in Sarajevo and now was it already that year that he was a
22 student at the faculty of law in Sarajevo, I don't know, but I know that
23 he got a degree in law at the University of Sarajevo later. I don't know
24 exactly what year I heard that he was not satisfied probably with his
25 status in the Ministry of the Interior, and that, therefore, he went to
1 work in UPI, that was a company that was involved in agriculture,
2 agricultural machinery, food, produce, and so on.
3 As chief of the OUP of Stari Grad, I went to visit this UPI
4 distribution centre once, so they were distributing goods throughout
5 Sarajevo to different super markets. Avdo Skaljic was the director of
6 the entire organisation, and Avdo's wife was president of Executive Board
7 in the municipality where I was chief of the police station. That is how
8 we went to the UPI. That was the second time I saw Mico Stanisic. Of
9 course we exchanged greetings. He was a former colleague of mine and I
10 was told that he was the deputy general manager there; that is to say,
11 Skaljic's deputy.
12 Q. Did you know that Mico Stanisic had returned to the Ministry of
13 the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if so,
14 did you know which post he held?
15 A. Yes, of course I knew. As the personnel transformation was
16 underway in 1991 -- just by way of a small digression, may I say that the
17 city secretariat for awhile did not have a secretary, as it was called at
18 the time, of the city SUP. And for awhile it was being said that before
19 the multi-party elections, I was supposed to assume the position of city
20 secretary. Mico Stanisic came then in 1991, I believe, to that position.
21 He became the secretary of the city MUP of Sarajevo.
22 Q. Since Mr. Stanisic came at the time that you just told us about,
23 did you comment on Mico Stanisic's appointment when talking to your
25 A. I think that Mico was one of the few people to have come to such
1 an important position with that kind of proper professional background.
2 I already said that he had completed the school of internal affairs and
3 worked in the city secretariat. I think that he worked on general crime
4 matters. He had the proper educational background as well. He had a
5 degree in law. So there were very few negative comments in respect of
6 the fact that such a person had come back to the service after so many
7 years. However, later there were comments with regard to Mico's
8 attitude, or rather, his work in the city SUP.
9 Q. Tell us, what kind of comments?
10 A. I'm very sorry to have to say this, but it is an undeniable fact
11 that most of the objections raised in view of Mico's work were those
12 raised by ethnic Muslims. At the time they said that he was very rigid
13 and a man who did not lend himself to co-operation. In a way, I tried to
14 check that. By mentioning Mr. Sabovic yet again, as far as I can
15 remember, Sabovic had also been transferred to the city SUP, and he told
16 me that the man was 100 per cent right, that Mico was just asking for
17 people to work lawfully and on the basis of principles; whereas those who
18 had come to the ministry from some other structures thought that people
19 could work any which way they wanted.
20 I was given an example when Mr. Stanisic opposed the issuing of
21 passports. In one period of time in 1991, there was an expansion, or
22 rather, a lot of ethnic Muslims came from Sandzak. Over night, they were
23 given IDs in the Stari Grad station.
24 Q. Let us just clarify the matter. Where is Sandzak, the place that
25 they came from?
1 A. At the time, they came from another republic; that is, Serbia.
2 As they came to Stari Grad, to the SUP of Stari Grad, where I worked
3 until 1990, without any problem whatsoever, they were issued IDs and then
4 you also needed to apply for residency, and they were given these papers.
5 As far as I can remember, you could not be issued such papers if you did
6 not have permanent employment. They, nevertheless, were issued these
7 papers. Since the city secretariat also issued passports, so it wasn't
8 the municipal secretariats that were issuing passports, it was the city
9 secretariat that issued passports. On one day they would get an ID and
10 the very next day they would apply for a passport. As far as I know,
11 Mr. Stanisic was opposed to that, and he did not allow passports to be
12 issued in that way. I don't know, perhaps he had other conflicts. But,
13 as far as I know, this conflict culminated in the non-issuing of
14 passports, but there were probably other things involved as well.
15 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Mico Stanisic was replaced, and if so,
16 where was he transferred?
17 A. I think that a compromise was reached. Mr. Stanisic was replaced
18 by Mr. Dragan Kijac, and Mico Stanisic became an advisor to the minister
19 of the interior; that is to say, Mr. Alija Delimustafic.
20 Q. Mr. Andan, tell me, first of all, where was your office in the
21 MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in which parts of
22 the building?
23 A. It was on the second floor, the right-hand wing of the building.
24 On that same floor was also the administration of the crime police. The
25 chief of the police administration sat on one side of the corridor, and
1 the chief of the crime police sat -- or, rather, had his office on the
2 other side. So we were on the left-hand side of the right-hand wing of
3 the building.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do remind us, please, who was the chief of the police
8 administration and who was his deputy?
9 A. If you mean the police administration, the first period was
10 Avdo Hebib and his deputy was Cedo Kljajic. And then, I think it was
11 towards the end of 1991, it was Jusuf Pusina who became chief of the
12 administration and Cedo Kljajic stayed on as his deputy.
13 Q. Was your office opposite the office of the chief of the police
15 A. No. It was opposite the chief of the administration for crime,
16 so I was a bit further down.
17 Q. And who was in charge of the crime administration? Who was the
19 A. At the time it was Momcilo Mandic who was chief of the crime
21 Q. Mr. Andan, do you know that MUP employees who were ethnic Serbs
22 came to Momcilo Mandic's office to attend some meetings?
23 MR. HANNIS: I am sorry, can we have a time-period for this?
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And in which period, from when?
1 A. If you are asking about the period of 1991, I remember one
2 particular case when a meeting was organised in Mr. Mandic's office. It
3 was attended by Serb personnel. I was also invited to that meeting, and
4 as I set out to the office, the door was open. When I saw Mr. Kovac, I
5 turned around and went back. I didn't want to go in. I think that in
6 addition to Momcilo Mandic, this meeting was attended by Mr. Stanisic,
7 Mr. Kijac, Mr. Cedo Kljajic, Mr. Kovac, and I don't know who else could
8 have been there.
9 Q. Is that something that was call the collegium of the Serb MUP or
10 the members, or the collegium of the members of the MUP who were part of
11 the Serb people?
12 A. I don't know whether it had the official form of a collegium, but
13 it was a gathering of persons, top personnel in the MUP of the
14 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were ethnic Serbs.
15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Andan, the top personnel of other ethnic
16 backgrounds, to the best of your knowledge, did they also have similar
18 A. Yes, but in a far smarter and more perfidious way. They did not
19 meet that way in public as the Serbs did.
20 Q. When you say smarter and more perfidious, tell us what you mean.
21 A. They did not meet on the premise us of the Ministry of the
22 Interior. They did not meet there. I know with full certainty because I
23 was an eye-witness at one such meeting or two in the restaurant
24 Sentata [phoen] where Croat personnel met. The owner of that restaurant
25 is the brother of Bruno Stojic, his name is Mato Stojic. And on two or
1 three occasions, because that is the only restaurant or perhaps there was
2 another one as well where fish could be had as well as wine -- we went
3 there often, even before these party divisions and before their
4 victories. Several times we found Bruno Stojic there and Croat personnel
5 who held key positions at the time in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
6 including, among others, Dragan Vikic who was then commander of the joint
7 Special Police Unit of the MUP of BH.
8 Q. Dragan Vikic, was he also an ethnic Croat?
9 A. That is hard to say because some checks suggest that his father
10 is a Serb and his mother is Croat, but then he, himself, opted for being
11 a Croat.
12 Q. Did the members of the Muslim people meet in Avdo Hebib's office?
13 A. Yes, but we were not allowed to enter these offices when his
14 co-workers who were ethnic Muslims were in there. Several times I felt
15 it was necessary for me to inform him about certain matters. However,
16 his secretary would not allow me to come in because meetings were being
17 held there. Most probably - no, it's not most probably, it's for
18 certain - that it was ethnic Muslims who worked in the ministry. And
19 sometimes also these SDA party leaders came to see him for certain
20 consultations, and these were meetings that were also beyond what we
21 could do.
22 Q. [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, given that you worked in that
1 building and given that your offices were located there, during that
2 period of time, that is to say 1991 and 1992, was there a division which
3 took place along ethnic lines in the leadership of the MUP of the
4 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Yes. It was clear. Unfortunately, this national denomination
6 started manifesting itself among lower-level officials as well. I sat
7 once with Enver Dupovac with whom I had had a complex task. We had to
8 transfer from Kladusa, from the Cazin region, 15 busloads of civilians,
9 women, children, and men, to Western Herzegovina. Those were refugees
10 from Croatia because the war had been going on there for quite awhile.
11 We completed that task successfully, even though we had a lot of problems
12 in the area of Petrovac, and we functioned really well as a team, it was
13 good team work.
14 Q. This gentleman, Enver Dupovac, was he also an inspector in the
15 police administration?
16 A. Yes, I've mentioned him before.
17 Q. Did you share an office, the two of you?
18 A. Yes, our desks were next to each other. We were office mates.
19 Normally, two inspectors shared an office, each of them had his desk and
20 a safe where they kept documents.
21 Q. All right. I interrupted you in your answer. Happened to
22 Enver Dupovac?
23 A. It was a shock and a very unpleasant situation for me which I
24 failed to comprehend at that time. It was 1992, and up until April of
25 1992 I made every effort to go to the Ministry of the Interior every day
1 for work because I thought it was my duty. It was they who paid my
2 salary, after all. I think it was April and I came to the office earlier
3 then Enver because he used to commute from Hadzici which is near
4 Sarajevo. He walked into the office, put his papers down, looked at me
5 and said, Are you still in the office? And then I looked at him and said
6 laconically, Where am I supposed to be, Enver? It was already the period
7 of time when divisions had taken place in the ministry, and he said to
8 me, Well, you should be with your people. There's no room for you here.
9 It was a shock for me coming from a colleague with whom just three months
10 prior to that I had performed a very complex and difficult task. We had
11 to watch each other's back during that mission. And then just three
12 months later, he says to me, What are you doing here still?
13 Q. Mr. Andan, were you against the division of the MUP of the
14 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
15 A. I was. I was because similar to many colleagues of mine who were
16 Serbs, I had a wrong assessment of the overall situation. We thought
17 jointly that the army was not put into use and that eventually army would
18 introduce law and order and bring back the situation as it used to be. I
19 was explicitly against any such division.
20 Q. When you say "the army," are you referring to the JNA and to the
21 situation in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. Yes, I'm referring to the Yugoslav People's Army.
23 Q. According to you -- or, rather, did the Yugoslav People's Army
24 intervene in the end, as you expected them to do?
25 A. Well, ultimately that was my greatest disappointment. The entire
1 system was based on the Yugoslav People's Army and the principle that
2 prevailed in the entire Yugoslavia was that funds had it to be invested
3 into developing the Yugoslav People's Army, into developing their
4 educational facilities, housing facilities, equipment and so on. We all
5 had to deal with cuts so that they would be stronger, so that should the
6 situation come to that, they would calm the situation down, introduce law
7 and order and ensure that the situation was put back on normal tracks.
8 And for me, that was the greatest disappointment, the JNA.
9 Q. Mr. Andan, even after the MUP was divided -- no, actually, tell
10 me first, what was the situation like with the Croatian senior officials
11 in the MUP of Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in March and April
12 of 1992, ethnic Croat senior officials?
13 A. I think that they were the first one to leave the Ministry of the
14 Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They even used
15 official vehicles of the ministry. On one day after greeting all of us,
16 even I greeted Bruno Stojic, we even kissed each other and I wished him
17 all the best, they left to Herceg-Bosna. There were rumours and
18 speculations that they had taken a lot of equipment with them from the
19 analysis department, they took some things and they got into official
20 vehicles. And upon having been bid farewell, both by Serbs and Muslims,
21 they got into the cars and left.
22 Q. In April after the MUP was divided, did you continue coming to
23 work to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
24 until what time?
25 A. I did come to work but not at regular hours. I would come
1 sometimes at 10.00 a.m. or sometimes during business hours because nobody
2 ever asked us any longer where we were, nor were we issued with any
3 tasks. I would simply come to see whether there had been any changes,
4 whether there had been any new pieces of information. And then on one
5 day, on one morning, I don't know the date or time any longer, when I
6 reached the MUP building, the central gate had already been moved to a
7 side-street where the garage entrance was. I tried to enter the building
8 and then a policeman came out and told me that I wasn't allowed into the
9 Ministry of the Interior, that that had been an order issued. I insisted
10 upon being told what order it was and whom did it ban from entering. It
11 was the order of the chief of the administration for providing security
12 to persons and facilities. And after me insisting, he finally said that
13 it was the Serbs who were banned from entering the building.
14 I revolted and then I entered the building. I spent three or
15 four minutes there at the most, and then I went out. I was so upset at
16 this order of the chief who had prevented me, a long-standing member of
17 the MUP, worker, from entering the building.
18 Q. And who was the chief of the administration for providing
19 security to persons and facilities?
20 A. Unfortunately, that was my friend Teufik Music.
21 Q. Was that the same person with whom you went on the first of
22 March, on that night, to his apartment?
23 A. Yes, the same person who started working together with me in the
24 state security service, and our careers developed alongside until that
25 time when we went together to his apartment.
1 Q. How long did you remain in your apartment in Sarajevo, sir?
2 A. I don't know exactly the time, but I know that some time in
3 mid-April of 1992, I took out of Sarajevo my children, my mother-in-law,
4 and my brother-in-law's children. I took them in a car to Trebinje. And
5 then from Trebinje, I took them to Herceg-Novi. As people in Sarajevo
6 used to say, I took my children to a safe place. That's what everybody
7 else was doing. I then, with some difficulties, returned to Sarajevo
8 again. That was the first time I left Sarajevo. And my definite
9 departure from Sarajevo came between the 10th and 15th of May. I know
10 that as I left, a convoy of children was stopped at Ilidza, the children
11 of Sarajevo were supposed to be taken to another location. I remember
12 that event.
13 Q. Mr. Andan, did somebody suggest to you, and, if so, who, to take
14 your children and the other relatives out of Sarajevo?
15 A. I have to go back to an event which preceded me taking my
16 children out of Sarajevo, which caused me to do that. One day my
17 apartment was searched. One active policeman and some people whom I
18 didn't know at all carried out this search. They allegedly were looking
19 for a concealed radio and weapons. At the time, I had an official
20 pistol, and of course I had an official ID and permit, and they did not
21 confiscate the pistol from me. I have to say that this search was
22 carried out in accordance with all of the rules.
23 After that first search since Mr. Sabovic and I were neighbours,
24 he said to me, What are you waiting for? Can't you see that everybody
25 else is taking their children out of Sarajevo? Why don't you do the
1 same? This is how I took the decision to take the children to
3 Q. Tell me, please, how many more searches of your apartment came
4 after that, and what did that look like?
5 A. My apartment was searched twice after that. The first time I
6 asked them to produce the search warrant which was required at the time.
7 And the second search was also carried out in accordance with the
8 rules. I did not ask for search warrant on that occasion because there
9 were armed people outside of the door.
10 The third search was a brutal one. It was the criminals who came
11 to search my apartment on the third occasion. The persons whom we used
12 to detain previously, interview, the persons whom -- whose premises we
13 used to search, and so on. The head of that search team, if I may call
14 them that, was nicknamed Rus [phoen], a criminal from Hrasno who hit me
15 with the rifle-butt and pushed the rifle barrel into the my mouth, saying
16 to me that the times had changed and that he was the boss now and I was a
18 After the third search of my apartment, there was a telephone
19 call which definitely made me flee Sarajevo. If you allow me, I will
20 explain. I was on good terms with Dr. Nakas, a surgeon from the military
21 hospital who became a member of the SDA party in 1991 and most likely had
22 some information. Unfortunately, he died. He was a good man. And on
23 the telephone, he told me that I should leave Sarajevo because neither he
24 or anybody else could guarantee my safety any longer in Sarajevo. That
25 morning at 3.00 a.m., I got into my car, I went to Ilidza. Fortunately,
1 nobody stopped me all the way until the barricades or the Serbian police
2 check-point at Ilidza.
3 Q. Tell me, when you got out to Ilidza, where did you say, with who?
4 A. I stayed with my sister who now lives in the United States in
6 Q. When did you leave Ilidza and where did you go to?
7 A. In a statement I said that I stayed for about 10 or 15 days.
8 However, I believe that that is not correct. I spent less time in
9 Ilidza. Mr. Kovac gave me a patrol car that transferred me to the former
10 school of the interior in Vrace and then I was transferred by automobile.
11 Q. And then, in fact, you joined the MUP of Republika Srpska
13 A. When I -- I arrived in Ilidza, Mr. Kovac made me an offer, that I
14 stay there as his deputy. I refused that because before the war, during
15 the war, and after the war, I did not agree with some of his ideas and
16 thoughts. So in Vrace, I fully made myself available to the Ministry of
17 the Interior of Republika Srpska.
18 Q. Tell me, which administration was it in the Ministry of the
19 Interior of Republika Srpska that you were assigned to?
20 A. If you allow me, I would not want to omit a detail. Maybe it's
21 not all that important, but ultimately it may turn out to be important.
22 It has to do with before I was given my new assignment.
23 Q. Please go ahead but try to be as brief as possible.
24 A. Before arriving in Vrace, I had some problems with the Serbs.
25 Why did I stay that long? Why did I leave so late? Some people said
1 that I came there as a spy for the Muslim intelligence services, so there
2 were some problems, even with regard to my assignment. As far as what I
3 heard from Mr. Skipina, at one point Mr. Stanisic reacted as minister of
4 the interior and said that I am a tried and tested person, that there's a
5 shortage of proper personnel anyway, and that it would be best to give me
6 one of the most difficult assignments in the territory of
7 Republika Srpska at the time, so that I show to some doubting Thomases
8 where my place is among the members of the Ministry of the Interior of
9 Republika Srpska.
10 Quite simply, in that way he cut this whole story short, and then
11 from Vrace I was sent to Brcko.
12 Q. Just one thing, when you said appropriate personnel proper, did
13 you mean professionally or did you mean it in some other sense?
14 A. When I speak about the police, I speak in a professional sense
16 Q. As for this trip to Brcko, did you set out together with some
17 other employee of the police or not, or did you travel on your own?
18 A. Yes, I have to say that there were some other problems there,
19 too. I was supposed to be given an official vehicle and they wouldn't
20 give me one. I somehow managed to get to Pale and then Danilo Vuckovic
21 and I were given instructions. I think that we received a dispatch,
22 actually, to the effect that we were supposed to go to Bijeljina where we
23 would report to Mr. Predrag Jesuric and that then he would give us
24 instructions as to where we were supposed to go, where he was supposed to
25 go and where I was supposed to go.
1 Q. Tell me, Mr. Danilo Vuckovic, who was he, what was his position?
2 A. He was an inspector in the crime police.
3 Q. I know that you told us that you are not very good at dates, but
4 do you remember roughly what the month was when you arrived in Bijeljina?
5 A. I think that was the beginning of June. I remember something
6 that happened in Bijeljina, something that is hard to forget.
7 Q. Please go ahead and tell us.
8 A. We were taken from one police station to another because there
9 weren't enough vehicles, so we changed vehicles in the process. When we
10 arrived at the station in Bijeljina, all the streets were under siege as
11 it were. These persons wore masks on their faces, they wore black caps
12 or fur caps with cockades. We didn't know what this was all about until
13 we got to the police station. Then Dragan Devedlaka walked out of the
14 police station. I think that he was acting chief of centre in Bijeljina.
15 And he said to us to get out of Bijeljina as soon as possible, to flee.
16 He got into a car and left, and we asked this driver, I think he was the
17 driver of the patrol vehicle from Zvornik, to get us out of Bijeljina.
18 We were stopped in the centre of Bijeljina by these masked and
19 armed persons who checked our IDs. They spoke to someone over a
20 hand-held radio. They addressed him as Vojvoda, and they said these men
21 are from Sarajevo. Then I was allowed to leave. We did leave Bijeljina
22 then and went to the Republic of Serbia, to the hotel in Banja Koviljaca
23 where we spent two days not knowing what was going on in Bijeljina. Then
24 somehow by telephone, we spoke to either Jesuric or someone from Pale, I
25 cannot say now. The situation in Bijeljina calmed down. They sent a
1 vehicle to pick us up. And then we came to Bijeljina and I know that we
2 reported to Mr. Jesuric.
3 Q. When you reported to Mr. Jesuric, what kind of assignments were
4 you given -- or, rather, did Mr. Jesuric give you any assignments?
5 A. I think that in the dispatch that was signed by Mr. Stanisic, our
6 tasks had already been defined. When preparing for our departure, I
7 don't know who it was that told us what our tasks were, but we were not
8 told who would go where because we thought that both of us were to
9 inspect various police stations. Jesuric assigned me to Brcko and
10 Danilo Vukovic to Zvornik.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Let us have a look at tab 13A, the P number is
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, as interesting and fascinating all
14 of this is, and I really appreciate the witness's account of what
15 happened, nevertheless, I think that I should still remind you to sharpen
16 your focus.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, with all due respect, Bijeljina
18 is the municipality in our indictment, and all of the previous witness
19 answers dealt with a substantial part of the case of the Office of the
20 Prosecutor concerning the split of the MUP of Socialist Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina and creation of the Serbian MUP. Now, the witness
22 explained how he came to Bijeljina, what was the situation in Bijeljina.
23 And I think it's relevant because it's June 1992, and now we are moving
24 to the situation where his assignment is, you will hear that his
25 assignment was to go -- and you can see from the document that his
1 assignment was to go to Brcko, which is again the municipality which is
2 in our indictment. And what are his duties and what did he found out in
3 Brcko, I think is very relevant for this case.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for this. I'm not suggesting that it
5 is not without some relevance, but I urge you to focus on the lines of
6 responsibility that are the basis of this case.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this document that we have before us, can
9 you give us your comment on this document?
10 A. Well, this was signed by Mr. Jesuric as head of the CSB
11 Bijeljina. This was a document that allowed me to enter Brcko and work
12 there, this clearly shows what my duties are and what I was supposed to
13 do in Brcko. I could not just arrive in Brcko, get my official ID out,
14 say I'm an inspector and start working there. I was supposed to bring
15 stability to the police station in Brcko --
16 MR. HANNIS: I am sorry, just for the record, I want to indicate
17 that the English has the date as the 28th of June, but clearly from the
18 original, the date is the 28th of May.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Hannis. Your Honours, I see the
20 time. Since I have been moving in a different municipality, Brcko, I
21 suggest that we adjourn for the day and start tomorrow.
22 JUDGE HALL: Very well.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Andan, we are about to take the first
25 adjournment for the day. In terms of your testimony which as I indicated
1 to you is expected to run over several days, I remind you that one of the
2 consequences of being sworn as a witness is that until you are released
3 by the Chamber -- by the Tribunal, you cannot have any communication
4 whatever with counsel from either side in this matter. Additionally, in
5 such communications and casual conversations as you have with anybody
6 else outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony that you
7 are giving here. Do you understand?
8 So we rise and we assume in this courtroom tomorrow morning at
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of May,
13 2011, at 9.00 a.m.