Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21332

 1                           Thursday, 26 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution, we

11     have a slightly larger component than normal today.  I'm Tom Hannis along

12     with Gerard Dobbyn; Case Manager, Crispian Smith; and one of our interns,

13     Marina Vilova.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence this

16     morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I hope

18     that today I'm going to be luckier than yesterday.  Aleksandar Aleksic

19     representing Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, we are advised that your witness is

21     available to begin, but before he is brought into the courtroom, are

22     there any other matters which we should address?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I have to return back to the

24     issue of disclosure under the Rule 66(B).  If you remember, Your Honours,

25     I will briefly just summarise.  The decision of the Trial Chamber

Page 21333

 1     concerning the Rule 66(B) disclosure in -- with the previous witness,

 2     Mr. Bjelosevic, was that -- that the Defence did not provide enough

 3     specificity for the Office of the Prosecution to comply with, with our

 4     request which was made in January.

 5             Immediately after the ruling, we provided a request, a specified

 6     request in accordance with the Rule 66(B).  The Office of the Prosecutor

 7     informed us that they will not comply with our request.  We then filed a

 8     motion to comply, a motion to -- to compel -- sorry, motion to compel the

 9     Office of the Prosecution to compel with our 66(B) request.

10             As Your Honours informed us, the matter is still pending before

11     the Trial Chamber.  When I brought it up on Monday this week, we were

12     informed about that.  Immediately after that, we again requested from the

13     Office of the Prosecutor the documentation specifically connected to the

14     witness which is about to enter the court.

15             Now, on Tuesday we received the response from the Office of the

16     Prosecutor that the Prosecution disclosed to us all documents which, in

17     their opinion, are Rule 68, and that they are not -- they are not going

18     to disclose the 66(B), according to our request, before the decision of

19     the Trial Chamber.

20             Now, Your Honours, it really leaves us in a very, I must say

21     awkward position, the Defence, because the rules are here.  We did

22     everything which we can in accordance with the rule.  The matter is

23     pending before the Trial Chamber and now we are about to get into new

24     witness, another witness, and as I said, it's halfway through our case,

25     and we still -- and we are, if I may say so, we are walking with a

Page 21334

 1     blindfold in this matter.  That is the information I wanted to give to

 2     the Trial Chamber, and perhaps Mr. Hannis can, if he wants to respond,

 3     and then I can go to the second matter which Your Honours invited me

 4     to ...

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, do you have a comment on this?

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honours, the request regarding this

 7     witness was for anything addressed to him or signed by him in 1992.  We

 8     got that a couple of days ago.  I see by the list of exhibits on the

 9     Defence list that they have a number of items signed by this witness

10     which we didn't have in our collection, so obviously they have had access

11     to some materials that we don't know, we don't have, and those kind of

12     materials addressed to Mr. Andan or sent by Mr. Andan in the MUP in 1992

13     are certainly available to them through the state authorities, and the

14     motion is pending.  We are awaiting your ruling.  If you direct us to

15     comply with that request, we'll obviously do that, but I don't know if we

16     have anything that they don't already have because we haven't gone to

17     check that yet.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the exchange between counsel just now

19     illustrates the -- what is likely to happen with this witness and,

20     indeed, for the future.  As both counsel have said, you are awaiting the

21     ruling of the Chamber on this matter which has been the subject of a

22     formal motion by counsel for the accused, Stanisic.

23             The issues raised by that motion are notwithstanding the

24     experience and jurisprudence of the Tribunal over the years of its

25     existence, such as that the matter is -- the basic issue is yet in a

Page 21335

 1     state of refinement, and that is one of the reasons why the decision of

 2     the Chamber has not been as speedily produced as counsel may have

 3     anticipated.

 4             The net result of all of this is that, as has happened up to this

 5     point, and as I said earlier, is likely to continue to happen -- is that

 6     such objections, applications, whatever, would be -- would have to be

 7     addressed as and when they arise on an issue-by-issue basis with various

 8     documents.  There is no way of short-circuiting that, what everybody

 9     fears is going to be a -- could be a time-consuming process.  But to come

10     back to what I said earlier, the fact that despite the jurisprudence over

11     the years, this is still a matter for disputation, means that the nature

12     of the applications that tend to be made are ones that, particularly in

13     the adversarial system, counsel are not going to see eye to eye, and the

14     Chamber is going to have to, in exercise of its responsibility to deal

15     with these matters as the trial progresses, deal with them as and when

16     they arise.  That's probably not a satisfactorily explanation at this

17     point for counsel, but the ruling, when it comes and which we expect to

18     be -- I'm not going to make any promises, but which we expect to be soon,

19     will seek to bring together the syncing and experience of the Tribunal up

20     to this point on this, what is obviously going to remain in this trial

21     and probably other trials, a contentious issue.

22             Your second matter, Mr. Zecevic.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, just a brief comment, Your Honours.  The

24     problem, as we see it, is that this goes into the very crucial fairness

25     of the proceedings before this Trial Chamber in this case because, I'm

Page 21336

 1     sorry to bring that up again, but the provisions of the Rule 66(B) have

 2     nothing to do with our ability to gather the information from state

 3     institutions or anything like that.  It is a strict obligation of the

 4     Office of the Prosecutor to disclose to us the materials which are in

 5     their possession upon our request, and that is what we did.

 6             Now, Your Honours, we -- as I said, we are not in a position to

 7     know what are the documents because the Office of the Prosecutor does not

 8     want to disclose them to us upon our request.  So that brings us to the

 9     point where we are not able to discuss with our witnesses a documentation

10     which might be produced in the trial, and I think that goes to the very

11     fairness of the proceedings before this Tribunal.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Again you have put your finger on one of the reasons

13     why this matter is not as straightforward as it might have first

14     appeared.

15             MR. HANNIS:  And, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I wanted to add that in

16     case, the Defence has access to the witness who certainly would be in a

17     position to assist with identifying what documents he might have signed

18     in 1992 and which ones he might have received and places to find those,

19     and maybe even assisted the Defence in making more specific requests to

20     us for a particular kind of document.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  The second matter Your Honours invited us yesterday

22     at the end of the session was about the -- our proofing note and the

23     reference made to -- under point 18.  And, Your Honours, I agree that on

24     the face of it a number of matters which I provided in the proofing note

25     in -- under 18 are not directly relevant for the issues in this case.

Page 21337

 1     However, all these issues are very, extremely important and relevant for

 2     the credibility of the witness because, as Your Honours will hear, the

 3     witness -- the witness's life has been full of ups and downs, and on a

 4     number of occasions, the witness was -- was sacked from his duties and

 5     work due to the allegations made by former ICTY Prosecutor, the high

 6     representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And, therefore, I think that in

 7     this case, in these specific circumstances, the -- his credibility will

 8     be an issue which will be explored by the Office of the Prosecutor, and

 9     for these reasons we think that the matters which I stated in -- under

10     number 18 of the proofing note are very important for establishing his

11     credibility.  That is the reason why we intend to lead the evidence on

12     that particular issue shortly, as short as possible.  Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  If I may, Your Honour.  I had written to Mr. Zecevic

14     about this and indicating to him my understanding from my experience and

15     my practice in my jurisdiction.  And the general rule is that when you

16     present a witness, you are not permitted to introduce evidence basically

17     to bolster the credibility of your witness unless and until his

18     credibility has been attacked.

19             Now, starting out on direct it hasn't been attacked because the

20     Prosecution hasn't asked him a question, so it's something that may come

21     up in redirect if the Prosecution attacks his credibility.  On the other

22     hand, if this evidence is being sought to undermine his credibility for

23     some reason, well, then that's the Defence impeaching their own witness,

24     and we say that's not a proper thing do in direct examination either.  So

25     for us, it's partly a matter of timing and only after, if it happens,

Page 21338

 1     that the Prosecution raises questions or attacks his credibility on

 2     cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  I confess that coming from a common law background,

 4     my instinctual reaction was just as Mr. Hannis has indicated, but I'm

 5     open [Realtime transcript read in error "hope"] to being persuaded, I

 6     suppose, that there may be room for the Defence -- sorry, for the calling

 7     party, in this case the Defence, reasonably anticipating a challenge that

 8     is likely to be made to lay the foundation.  But, for the moment, I'm

 9     content to say nothing further and let's see how that develops.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  So would the usher please escort the witness into

12     court.

13             I see that the transcript records me as saying that "I hope to be

14     persuaded."  What I think I said is that "I'm open to being persuaded."

15     Thanks.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  Would you please make the

18     solemn declaration that's on the card the usher has handed to you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR ANDAN

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You may be seated.  And from your

24     responses to me thus far, I assume that you are hearing me in a language

25     that you understand?

Page 21339

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Well, first of all, we thank you for coming to

 3     assist the Tribunal by giving -- by agreeing to give evidence as a

 4     witness.  And I would begin by asking you your name.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Dragomir Andan.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your profession, or what was your

 7     profession and what is your ethnicity?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have graduated from the faculty

 9     of political sciences.  I spent all my career in the police.  My

10     ethnicity is Serb.

11             JUDGE HALL:  And your date of birth, sir, is when?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the

13     12th of April, 1951, in Sarajevo.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified previously before this Tribunal

15     or before any of the courts in any of the countries that comprise the

16     former Yugoslavia?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

18             JUDGE HALL:  You have been called by the Defence of the first

19     named accused in this indictment, Mr. Stanisic.  And counsel for

20     Mr. Stanisic, who is at your left, would begin by asking you questions,

21     following which the counsel for the Prosecution, which is on the opposite

22     side, on your right, would have an opportunity to ask questions of you.

23     But before that, counsel for Mr. Stanisic's co-accused would also have an

24     opportunities to ask questions.  There will then be an opportunity for

25     re-examination by the counsel calling you, and after that, or, indeed, at

Page 21340

 1     any intermediate stage, the members of the Bench may have questions of

 2     you.

 3             The time that has been indicated by counsel is that counsel

 4     calling you expects that they would require 20 hours to examine you.

 5     Counsel for the co-accused has indicated an hour, and counsel for the

 6     Prosecution has indicated themselves about 20 hours in cross-examination.

 7             Because the courtroom space is shared with other trials, the

 8     court sits either in morning sessions or afternoon sessions.  For the

 9     time being, and probably for the duration of your testimony, we will be

10     in morning sessions which begin at 9.00 and the Court rises at 1.45 to

11     make room for another trial.  However, that is not a continuous sitting.

12     For technical reasons having to do with the recording of the proceedings,

13     the sessions, the day's sitting is divided into sessions of not more than

14     90 minutes.  This allows -- and the break is usually for 20 minutes which

15     allows the necessary technical adjustments to be made but also provides

16     for the convenience of witnesses and, indeed, counsel and everybody else

17     concerned.

18             But notwithstanding those fixed periods, if for any other reason

19     you need to take a break, and we were advised that you, yourself, have

20     been suffering from certain minor issues having to deal with the

21     atmosphere in The Hague, we would -- you would notify us and we would, of

22     course, accommodate you.

23             When you came in, the first thing that happened was that the

24     usher had you read the solemn declaration.  This imposes upon you an

25     obligation to give truthful testimony to this Tribunal which is empowered

Page 21341

 1     under the statute which created it to impose severe penalties if you give

 2     false or misleading testimony.  And at the beginning of every day's

 3     sitting, you would be reminded of that solemn declaration.

 4             If you have no questions of the Bench by way of general --

 5     anything else that we should -- could explain to you, I would invite

 6     counsel for Mr. Stanisic to begin his examination-in-chief.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andan.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, we heard that you were born in Sarajevo in 1951.  Can

12     you tell me, what is your family situation now?

13        A.   I come from a worker's family.  My father took part in the

14     Second World War, and at the end of it, he was the non-commissioned

15     officer.  His first and last post was in Sarajevo, where I was born.  My

16     father died in 1954.  My mother, my sister and I were left alone.  Four

17     years later -- maybe I should first mention that my mother was 24 years

18     old when my father died.  Four years later, she married again, a Croat,

19     called Trpimir Sepcic.  From that second marriage, I have a brother and a

20     sister.

21        Q.   Mr. Andan, are you married?  Do you have any children?

22        A.   I am married.  I have two sons, Milos and Ivan.  Milos is 32.  He

23     graduated at business school.  Ivan is 28.  He is a lawyer.  My wife is

24     an economist and we've been married since 1978.

25        Q.   Mr. Andan, you said that you spent your whole career in the

Page 21342

 1     police.  When did you commence your employment in the Ministry of the

 2     Interior which used to be called the Secretariat of the Interior?

 3        A.   It used to be called the Republican Ministry of Interior.  I

 4     commenced working there in March 1976 in the state security department

 5     which was the secret police of the then state.  There was public security

 6     and state security, and I began working in the state security.

 7        Q.   Where did you begin working?

 8        A.   In the state security in Sarajevo.  It had its zones and I was in

 9     the security centre Sarajevo.  That service covered all the

10     municipalities in Sarajevo.  I don't know exactly what was the number of

11     the Sarajevo municipalities at that time.  I think it was around 20

12     municipalities.  There was, of course, also more structured hierarchy

13     about which I could maybe talk later in more detail.

14        Q.   I have to ask you to speak a little bit slower because of the

15     interpreters.

16             Could you tell me what functions did you perform in the

17     Ministry of the Interior in the Socialist Republic of BiH.  Could you

18     tell us what time-periods and what they were?

19        A.   In 1983, we were about to complete the preparations for the

20     Olympic games in Sarajevo that were held in 1984.  By is decision by the

21     minister and the undersecretary for the state security of BiH, a number

22     of us operatives in the state security were transferred to the public

23     security service.  I was appointed the commander of police station in

24     Novo Sarajevo.  That was the largest police station in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.

Page 21343

 1             I performed that function until 1986.  After which, because of a

 2     number of problems in the Stari Grad municipality, I was appointed by the

 3     decision of the ministry to the post of the chief of the station which I

 4     performed until 1990.  My mandate lasted for four years, and after that I

 5     was transferred to the Ministry of the Interior to the police

 6     administration where I was an inspector.

 7        Q.   Could you clarify one thing.  The municipality that you

 8     mentioned, Stari Grad, is it one of the Sarajevo municipalities and in

 9     which part of town is it?

10        A.   That's one of the municipalities in Sarajevo.  It's the oldest

11     municipality in Sarajevo.  It comprises Bascarsija where the population

12     was predominantly Muslim, around 97 [Realtime transcript read in

13     error "90"] per cent of Muslims; 2 percent of Serbs; and 1 per cent of

14     others.  So it's the oldest municipality in the town of Sarajevo.

15        Q.   I think you said 97 per cent Muslims, we see a different number

16     in the record.

17        A.   Yes, I said 97 per cent Muslims, 2 per cent Serbs and 1 per cent

18     others.

19        Q.   Mr. Andan, in 1990, in the BiH MUP, which function did you

20     perform at the time?

21        A.   I was senior inspector 1st class at the time.  But today in

22     Republika Srpska, it would be called chief inspector of the Ministry of

23     the Interior.

24        Q.   Let us just explain the hierarchy.  If we look at the senior

25     inspector 1st class, who was above you in the hierarchy in your

Page 21344

 1     administration?

 2        A.   My immediate superior was chief of the department, and after that

 3     assistant minister for police work or, later on, undersecretary for

 4     police work.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  The conflicts in April and May 1992, where were you

 6     when the hostilities in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out?

 7        A.   At the beginning of the war in April 1992, I was senior inspector

 8     1st class.  So from 1990 until the beginning of the war, I performed the

 9     same function.

10        Q.   When did you transfer to the MUP of the Serbian Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   I'm not quite sure whether I should make a short introduction.

13        Q.   No, just give us the dates and then we are going to go into

14     details later on during your testimony.

15        A.   I remained in Sarajevo until the second half of May 1992, and

16     then I went to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Until when did you remain working in the MUP of Republika Srpska?

18        A.   I worked there until the second half of August 1992 and then I

19     was transferred to the military.

20        Q.   How long did you remain in the VRS and what rank did you have in

21     the VRS?

22        A.   Since I graduated from the reserve officer school in Zadar and

23     was accorded the rank of 1st lieutenant, later on I was promoted to the

24     lieutenant, I entered the VRS as a captain and I left the VRS at the end

25     of the war as the reserve major.  I remained in the army until 1996.

Page 21345

 1        Q.   I think you said that your rank was reserve major at the end?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, when did you return to work in the Ministry of

 4     the Interior of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   I was officially appointed on the 1st of January, 2000.

 6        Q.   What did you do between 1996 when you left the VRS and the

 7     1st of January, 2000?

 8        A.   Unfortunately, or maybe luckily for me, I performed various jobs.

 9     For awhile I was in the Belgrade harbour carrying sacks from truck to

10     truck.  Later on, I worked at the large fruit market and vegetable

11     market.  Later on, I worked for some friends who transported tomatoes and

12     cucumbers from Greece.  So I would sell those things from 5.30 in the

13     morning until 4.00 p.m.  I was even a waiter and a manage manager of a

14     cafe in Herceg Novi for awhile.  I think it was in 1999.  So I did

15     everything but what I was qualified for.

16        Q.   What was the reason for you to return to the Ministry of the

17     Interior of Republika Srpska, and when did you start discussions in that

18     direction?

19        A.   Well, that was, practically speaking, half of my career.  I

20     needed another 20 years before I could retire, and I could not retire

21     working in the jobs that I did.  So when I considered all the factors, I

22     concluded that it would be best for me if I returned to the Ministry of

23     the Interior to work on the jobs that I worked on for a number of years.

24             In 1999, I decided to get in touch with the then minister of the

25     interior Sredoje Jovic [phoen], I wanted to speak to him about my

Page 21346

 1     possibly of my return to the Ministry of the Interior.  We had a

 2     conversation sometime in December 1999.  The minister told me that they

 3     are short of personnel, especially of personnel of my qualifications.  So

 4     he offered me to work as an inspector in the Ministry of the Interior of

 5     Republika Srpska.  So at the time I felt that this could give me some

 6     sort of security, financial security and also other forms of security,

 7     and that's why I decided to commence working again in the Ministry of the

 8     Interior.

 9        Q.   After your return to the Ministry of the Interior of

10     Republika Srpska, you said that you returned to the position of an

11     inspector in the ministry.  What were your other functions in the

12     Ministry of Republika Srpska, and could you give us the time-periods?

13        A.   I did not stay for long on the post of inspector, maybe six

14     months in total.  I was then promoted to the chief of the general police

15     work department.  The structure of the police has the department for

16     general police work and the department for traffic police, and there are

17     two chiefs.  I was one of the chiefs.  So as I said, after six months I

18     was promoted to the post of the chief of general police.

19        Q.   The police administration, is that something that relates to what

20     we normally call uniform police?

21        A.   There are two administrations in the ministry:  The crime police

22     administration, they wear civilian clothes; and the police

23     administration, they wear uniforms.

24        Q.   All right.  If my math is correct, sometime around mid-2000 you

25     became chief of this general police, if I can call them that.  How much

Page 21347

 1     time did you spend there?

 2        A.   I will kindly ask you not to take my word for dates because I'm

 3     very bad with dates.  I have to say that this promotion of mine came

 4     after the Bosniaks first came to Srebrenica in an organised fashion, so

 5     the minister made a decision appointing me chief of security for that

 6     event.  Given the political tensions involved in the situation in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was entrusted with this very difficult task of

 8     organising the unhindered arrival of Bosnians in Srebrenica so that they

 9     honour their dead for the first time, that they visit the site where the

10     war crime had been committed and that they safely return to the

11     Federation.  Most fortunately, this proved to be a job well done and I

12     think that that is when my promotion came.

13             As for the duty of chief of general police, I think I remained in

14     that position sometime until 2003, and then from that post I was

15     transferred to the post of inspector in Prijedor, the public security

16     station in Prijedor.

17        Q.   How shall I put this, this transfer from the post of chief of

18     general police and the MUP of Republika Srpska to the post of inspector

19     in Prijedor, was this a promotion or was it something different?

20        A.   For me, that was degradation.  I don't know if we have enough

21     time for me to explain why that happened.

22        Q.   Very briefly, please, just in the briefest possible terms.

23        A.   In the municipality of Sokolac, the then chief of the

24     Security Services Centre, Zeljko Markovic, was killed.  As chief of the

25     general police department, I sent special police forces up there to

Page 21348

 1     search the terrain and to help in that first stage of the investigation.

 2     When we game up there to the funeral, I was informed that not everything

 3     was done in accordance with regulations and that certain segments had not

 4     been taken care of properly.  I told Dragomir Jovicic, the then minister,

 5     that I did not agree with how part of the investigation had been

 6     initiated, and I told him what should be done in the next stage, first

 7     and foremost, to find the killer.

 8             The orders I received said that I would be head of the

 9     investigation team up there in Sokolac.  On the next day, I left

10     Banja Luka for Sokolac.  Before I left, the minister told me to do my

11     best to find the perpetrator, and then once we get that done, that I

12     could choose my post within the Ministry of Interior.  I said to him that

13     it was my professional duty, first and foremost, to find the perpetrator

14     and that I was not considering different posts at that time at all.

15             We'd come half way to Travnik and I was told that the situation

16     had changed and that I should go back.  I'm an operative by nature.  I

17     called a few numbers and I learned that part of the political structures,

18     especially from Sokolac, were not in favour of my coming to Sokolac to be

19     in charge of the investigation.  I also heard that they asked the

20     Ministry of the Interior that I return.  As a matter of fact, they said

21     that they would not guarantee my safety there.

22             That irritated me terribly.  When I returned to Banja Luka, I

23     said everything that I've said to you just now.  I said all of that to

24     the minister, and I said, Why did you not let me go up there?  And if

25     someone even started behaving in an offensive manner, you would know what

Page 21349

 1     this was all about.  I think that right now you don't want to bring the

 2     investigation to an end and you don't really want to find the

 3     perpetrator.

 4             Quite simply, there was no answer.  I was most dissatisfied with

 5     that kind of behaviour, and a few days after that in a weekly paper in

 6     Banja Luka which is called "Reporter [phoen]," I gave an interview where

 7     I explained everything that had happened and how work is being done in

 8     the Ministry of the Interior.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  If I understood this correctly, the outcome of this

10     interview was your transfer to Prijedor?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.

12        Q.   What kind of work did you do in Prijedor and for how long?

13        A.   I worked in the field of general crime.  I think that I spent

14     five or six months there.

15        Q.   What happened then?

16        A.   What came then was a sudden call.  It was sudden for me, at

17     least.  It was the minister of the interior, Mr. Djeric, who called me to

18     come to Banja Luka to see him at his office to talk about my transfer.

19     Truth to tell, I was surprised by the offer that was made.  After a

20     series of problems and after all the problems that had accumulated in the

21     security centre of East Sarajevo, he was offering that centre to me.

22     That is to say, he wanted to have me transferred to become chief of the

23     CSB Sarajevo.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Before I forget, I just wanted to request that

25     counsel clarify which Mr. Djeric it is.

Page 21350

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Could you please tell us which Mr. Djeric you are referring to,

 3     we know of Mr. Djeric who was prime minister of the government of

 4     Republika Srpska in 1992, so could you tell us who this Mr. Djeric is?

 5        A.   It is Zoran Djeric.  I don't know whether he is closely related

 6     to the former prime minister, but this is Zoran Djeric, who is now

 7     vice-president of the PDP political party, the party of

 8     Mladen Jovic [phoen].

 9        Q.   So these are two different people, right, the Zoran Djeric that

10     you are speaking about and the prime minister of Republika Srpska from

11     1992; right?

12        A.   Yes, yes, these are two different people.

13        Q.   After that, you became chief of the CSB of Istocno Sarajevo,

14     East Sarajevo, how much time did you spend there?

15        A.   I was there until January 2005, roughly.

16        Q.   What happened in the beginning of January 2005?

17        A.   I received a call from the office of the president of the

18     republic, Mr. Dragan Cavic.  Again, I'm saying please don't take my word

19     for the date.  I know that it was 2005.  I know that one morning or one

20     day at 11.00 I was supposed to come to his office for a meeting.  Since

21     hierarchy is in my blood, I immediately told the minister of the interior

22     that the president of the republic has invited me to come, and he said

23     that I should go and that he would be there as well.

24             In the office of the president, I found Mr. Paddy Ashdown,

25     Mr. Cavic and Mr. Matijasevic.

Page 21351

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us, you mentioned three names, could you

 2     please tell us who held which position?

 3        A.   Mr. Paddy Ashdown at the time was high representative for

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Mr. --

 5        Q.   Sorry, I think that the spelling of Paddy Ashdown is different

 6     from what the transcript reflects right now.  It's spelled with a double

 7     D.  Thank you.

 8        A.   Mr. Dragan Cavic was president of the Republika Srpska at the

 9     time.  And Mr. Darko Matijasevic was minister of the interior of the MUP

10     of Republika Srpska.  Of course, I addressed the president of the

11     republic and I said that I was hereby reporting.  I was told that after a

12     series of analyses and conversations, I was selected to be the person who

13     would inter alia be in charge of the work that has to do with

14     The Hague Tribunal.  So my role was, at least that is what I was told,

15     and later on that came to fruition, that in the forthcoming period I

16     would become director of the police in the MUP of Republika Srpska and

17     that our primary task was the arrest and prosecution of all persons that

18     are fugitives and are wanted by The Hague Tribunal.

19             Perhaps this was preceded by yet another event.  While I was

20     chief of the CSB of East Sarajevo, I received intelligence to the effect

21     that in the area of Visegrad there are two or three mass graves where

22     Muslims were buried.  We informed a person by the name of Don King, I

23     believe, about that.  He is an investigator and a representative of

24     The Hague Tribunal in Sarajevo.  We agreed to investigate all three mass

25     graves and to provide this documentation to them.

Page 21352

 1             In order to be able to do that properly, we informed the

 2     Prosecutor about that as well, we established an on-site investigation

 3     team and we investigated these three mass graves where Bosniaks had been

 4     buried.  The call came after all of that.  Probably the assessment was

 5     that I did not want to have any crimes concealed, rather I wanted things

 6     to be resolved as soon as possible.

 7             When I spoke to the president and the minister at the time,

 8     Mr. Paddy Ashdown said that if Republika Srpska does not apprehend

 9     persons wanted by The Hague Tribunal by April 2005 there will be no

10     Republika Srpska.  First of all, I was a bit perplexed at that point in

11     time, but I did agree, I said that I would do my very best to have all of

12     this resolved, that I would spare no effort, as far as my own efforts

13     were concerned and those of my co-workers, and that I would embark upon

14     this task very seriously.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we now briefly

17     move into private session just for a few questions that I have to put to

18     the witness.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 21353











11 Pages 21353-21356 redacted. Private session.
















Page 21357

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   In your capacity of director of police of Republika Srpska, did

21     you hand in the indictment to Mr. Mico Stanisic?

22        A.   Yes, and by your leave, I would explain how I did that.

23        Q.   Yes.  Just the main details, please.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is that necessary, Mr. Zecevic?

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe it is, Your Honours.

Page 21358

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Can we have an explanation as to the relevance.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Perhaps the witness can take his earphones off.

 3             Your Honours, I believe it is very important for the

 4     Trial Chamber and everybody to understand the attitude of Mr. Stanisic

 5     and the attitude of his towards the indictment that he is standing trial

 6     at this point now.  And this is the witness who can give us details of

 7     what was said, what was done, and what was the -- what was the reaction

 8     of Mr. Stanisic to the indictment that he received on that point.

 9             I think, and I'm -- I firmly believe it is important for the

10     Trial Chamber to hear this evidence.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, if I may, there's a another source of

12     that evidence available.  In addition, Mr. Stanisic gave a suspect

13     interview to the OTP for five or six days which is in evidence and

14     there's, I say, ample sufficient -- of his attitude contained therein.

15     The fact that he may have said something to this witness, and this

16     witness handed him the indictment in 1994, is not going take you very

17     far.  It's an, I say it's an attempt to get in self-serving evidence of

18     the accused without the accused having to take the stand and being

19     cross-examined.

20             In addition, this is not the situation where a policeman is

21     coming to court and testifying about having arrived at the murder scene,

22     talked to the accused who said, Oh my God, I'm sorry I did it.  It's not

23     in the nature of an excited utterance.  In 1994, there's quite a

24     likelihood that Mr. Stanisic was aware that something was in the works

25     and so the value of any utterance he made at that time is greatly reduced

Page 21359

 1     because it's not in the nature of -- in common law, we talk about as

 2     excited utterances which are treated as exceptions to hearsay because

 3     there's a general opinion that they are more reliable.  That's not the

 4     circumstances here.  And for that reason, I would object and ask you not

 5     to permit this as its not relevant, and if it is relevant, it has no

 6     weight.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I agree with the submissions that have been made by

 8     Mr. Hannis, Mr. Zecevic, and I don't know that I could improve on his

 9     language, so let's move on.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, we will leave this issue aside, given that the Chamber

12     decided that they don't need to hear your evidence on this.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, if you are about to move on to

14     something else, it's time for the break.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's time for the break.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Before we rise, Mr. Andan, I would point this out to

17     you, you've indicated before that you haven't previously testified, and

18     we appreciate that a person who comes as a witness has a story to tell

19     with a whole background which he is anxious to get out.  But in order for

20     evidence to be manageable in this Tribunal as with any courtroom, the

21     role that counsel plays is that counsel knows what he has to establish,

22     and therefore asks questions directed to what he seeks to do.  So

23     therefore, it is important for a witness to listen to counsel's question

24     and answer the question, rather than volunteering excess information.  So

25     if you would bear that in mind when we resume, we would be able to move

Page 21360

 1     ahead much more swiftly.  Thank you.

 2             We resume in 20 minutes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  We apologise for taking the Bench later than we had

 7     intended to, but it would be appreciated that judges try to use the

 8     breaks to get rid of some of the pressing matters which are always before

 9     us.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic, you may continue.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, tell me, please, how long did you

14     remain the director of police of Republika Srpska?  How long did you

15     remain in that post?

16        A.   I think until May of 2006.

17        Q.   Were you removed from that position on that occasion?

18        A.   No, I wasn't removed.  I resigned.

19        Q.   And what was the reason for your resignation?

20        A.   Prime minister of the RS government, Milorad Dodik, received a

21     letter sent by Ms. Carla del Ponte in which she said that I was part of

22     the organised crime ring and that such a person should not perform or

23     should not serve at such a high position in Republika Srpska.  After that

24     letter, I had a conversation with Mr. Dodik and I asked that an

25     investigation be instituted after which I would resign, and he said that

Page 21361

 1     I should resign first, following which I could be moved to another

 2     position within the ministry, following which I could take legal measures

 3     to investigate the claims made by Mrs. del Ponte.

 4        Q.   And what position were you appointed next?

 5        A.   A compromise was found.  I was appointed deputy chief of police

 6     education administration in the Ministry of the Interior.

 7        Q.   As for the other suggestion made to you, to undertake legal steps

 8     in order to ascertain the truthfulness of allegations contained in that

 9     letter, did you do anything about that, and if so, what?

10        A.   The letter of Mrs. del Ponte contained the assertion that she has

11     certain information, some of which was confirmed by Vinzenzo Copola, the

12     chief of European police in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I wrote to Mr. Copola

13     first and I asked him it that if he has any incriminations related to

14     Dragomir Andan that he should forward them to the Prosecutor's Office,

15     and I am ready to appear before any court in relation to any act of mine.

16     In the mean time, I believe Mrs. del Ponte was replaced.  I wrote a

17     similar letter to Mr. Serge Brammertz and I requested the state

18     prosecutor's office of the BiH to forward all allegation of Mrs. Del

19     Ponte to any court in Bosnia-Herzegovina before which I would then be

20     ready to appear if I really committed a criminal offence.  I received no

21     answer to any of those letters.  There was no other legal avenue open for

22     me.  You are well aware of the fact that various international structures

23     such as the office of high representatives are institutions against which

24     no legal proceedings can be instigated.

25        Q.   Did you undertake any measures before the state prosecutor's

Page 21362

 1     office of BiH in relation to this matter?

 2        A.   Yes, after I wrote the two letters, I spoke on the phone

 3     requesting to be received by Mr. Marinko Jurcevic in the state

 4     Prosecutor's Office.  Mr. Jurcevic received me.  Present was also his

 5     deputy, Barasin, and chief in charge of war crimes, whose name I think is

 6     Mr. Senduk [phoen].  I requested them to provide me some explanations,

 7     and I asked Mr. Jurcevic to detain me on the very day that I arrived in

 8     Sarajevo.  I wanted the full investigation be conducted, and if anything

 9     is found against me that I should be immediately indicted; and if not, I

10     wanted them to issue some sort of certificates stating that the state

11     Prosecutor office is not conducting any sort of proceedings against me.

12             Mr. Jurcevic told me, either consciously or unconsciously, that

13     there is no investigation any sort of proceedings against me in their

14     office but the problem lies in the OHR.

15        Q.   How long did you perform the duty of assistant for police

16     education in the Ministry of the Interior?

17        A.   It wasn't assistant, it was deputy chief of administration.  I

18     remained on that post until the 10th of July, 2007.  Then Mr. Lajcak, the

19     high representative, made a decision banning me from work in all organs

20     of -- in all government organs.  My personal documents were taken from

21     me, ID and passport, and I was precluded from crossing the state border.

22     That decision was taken on 10th of July, 2007.  In the disposition of the

23     decision they wrote that I am a part of the support network for Radovan

24     Karadzic and that I'm financing him.  I have a copy of that decision and,

25     of course, you also have a copy of that decision here.

Page 21363

 1        Q.   And what happened after that decision?

 2        A.   I requested to be received by the relevant official of the OHR

 3     because I was seeking answers.  Unfortunately, I was never received by

 4     Mr. Lajcak.  However, I was received by his deputy on a number of he

 5     occasions, Mr. Gregor Jani [phoen].  In the first conversation, I

 6     requested to be retired.  I asked them, What do you think, how am I going

 7     to live?  And they told me, Well, that's your problem, but you cannot be

 8     retired.  So in addition to all the measures undertaken against me, I was

 9     precluded from retiring, although taken together with the war time, I had

10     about 42 years of pensionable years.  This was the most difficult period

11     of my life.  If necessary, I can go into more details, but this is a very

12     difficult and painful subject for me.

13        Q.   Were you fired from the Ministry of the Interior after that

14     decision made by the high representative on the 10th of July, 2007?

15        A.   I received the decision on the 10th of July.  On the 11th of

16     July, in the morning, 9.00 in the morning, I was called by the minister

17     of interior of Republika Srpska, Mr. Cargo and he handed me the decision

18     terminating my employment.  I used all legal avenues available to me in

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina against that decision, from the lower court to the

20     highest instance which is the constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21     However, all of them declared lack of jurisdiction in any sort of dispute

22     involving the Office of High Representative.  I was told that I could

23     maybe go before the human rights court in Strasbourg, which I did.

24             In the meantime, I addressed the high representatives, all of

25     them between Miroslav Lajcak and Mr. Insk [phoen].  I probably wrote to

Page 21364

 1     them around 20 times asking for various things.  First of all, I wanted

 2     them to permit me to visit my family in Belgrade, for Christmas, for

 3     Easter and for New Year.  I was not permitted to do that.  So although I

 4     didn't even have an apartment there, and I still don't have an apartment

 5     there, which means that I am a tenant.  I had to rent an apartment.  I

 6     was not permitted to visit my family even during most important holidays.

 7        Q.   The situation that arose on the 10th of July, 2007, how long did

 8     it last?  How long did you have this particular status?

 9        A.   After I've exhausted all legal possibilities that I knew of,

10     finding myself in a completely helpless situation, last year in September

11     I decided to undertake a radical move.  I began a hunger strike.  I did

12     that in front of the building of the Office of High Representative in

13     Banja Luka.  I was on hunger strike for 22 days until I was taken to a

14     hospital and treated.  I spent three or four days in hospital.  After

15     that, I received another 15 intervenous treatments, and shortly after

16     that, I received an information from the Office of High Representative,

17     although it was mostly media that I saw it, that I and another 13 persons

18     were to receive the personal documents that they would be allowed to

19     cross the state border, and after that in the conversation with the

20     representatives of the Office of High Representatives, I asked whether I

21     would be allowed to retire.  My request was granted.

22             So, all in all, I told you already that you shouldn't really rely

23     on me for precise dates, but it all ended sometime in April last year.

24     This was the first measure imposed on me.

25             The second measure, and that is the ban on employment in all

Page 21365

 1     government organs, is still in effect, and I don't know how long it is

 2     going to remain in effect.  During all this time, no Prosecutor in

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina ever instigated any proceedings against me and it

 4     has never been proved that I was part of the support network for

 5     Radovan Karadzic.  When he was transferred to The Hague Tribunal, I was

 6     then hand a new decision alleging that I was part of the support network

 7     for Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic.  I do not understand any of those two

 8     decisions, but these are the facts and these are the things that I have

 9     to reckon with.

10        Q.   Sir, did you give any interviews to the Prosecutor's Office of

11     this Tribunal, and if so, how many times and when?

12        A.   I think I spoke to them twice, I don't know the names of persons

13     involved, and it's probably not important.  Once we spoke about Brcko.

14     We spoke in Brcko.  I don't know exactly in which offices.  And the

15     second interview was in 2006 or 2007 in the Tribunal offices in

16     Banja Luka.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, do you remember whether there were -- whether

18     you were interviewed the Tribunal investigators as a suspect?

19        A.   I think that I was told quite openly during the second interview

20     that I was not a suspect.  And as for the first interview in Brcko, my

21     understanding was that it was some sort of almost a friendly

22     conversation.  The interview in Banja Luka was a bit more serious.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go back to the relevant period now.  Period

24     relevant for these proceedings.  Until which year were you the chief of

25     the public security station Stari Grad in Sarajevo?

Page 21366

 1        A.   I was the chief there from 1986 until 2000.  Excuse me, excuse

 2     me, 1986 until 1990.

 3        Q.   You were the chief of the public security station of Stari Grad

 4     in Sarajevo, and from that position you were transferred to the MUP of

 5     the Socialist Republic of BiH.  Why?

 6        A.   In 1986, I was appointed to the position of the chief pursuant to

 7     the order by the then minister of the interior, Dusko Zgonjanin.  The

 8     reason was the fact that that particular station had the worst

 9     performance in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There were many problems in that

10     station and I was told to bring some order into the station.  Every year

11     there was some sort of league table published for the police stations in

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  After two years, we were in fifth place, and shortly

13     thereafter, in the second place, which means that the situation was

14     rather stable.  And I thought that there were fortuitous conditions to

15     continue in that direction.

16             In 1990, there were also changes at the very top of the Ministry

17     of the Interior.  Mr. Dusko Zgonjanin left his post.  I think he was

18     retired.  He was replaced by Muhamed Besic.  Mr. Besic invited me to his

19     office.  Before my mandate was over, at the time I expected that I was

20     going to remain on the duty for another mandate, I was told that

21     essentially they were satisfied with my work, but that it would be

22     inappropriate for me, a Serb, to be the chief of police station in the

23     territory with 97 per cent of Muslims.  I was told that they were not

24     going to extend my mandate and that I could choose whether I wanted to go

25     to the crime police or general police in the Ministry of the Interior of

Page 21367

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They thought that that was an appropriate solution

 2     for me.

 3             I accepted their offer in 1990 and I was transferred, or I

 4     returned to the Ministry of the Interior, and I accepted the post of

 5     inspector in the general police administration.

 6        Q.   What were your specific duties in -- on the post of inspector in

 7     the Ministry of the Interior of Socialist Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     beginning in 1990?

 9        A.   Inspectors were in charge of various security centres.  My duties

10     at the time were to follow and direct the work in Eastern Herzegovina.  I

11     mean by that, the police stations in Eastern Herzegovina.  At the time

12     the security centre in Trebinje had not been established because Trebinje

13     was under Mostar at the time.  But another colleague of mine and I

14     divided the Security Services Centre in Mostar into two parts, so I

15     followed the events in the Eastern Herzegovina and he followed the events

16     in Western Herzegovina.  We were mainly involved in supervisory

17     inspection.  We followed and directed the work of police stations as part

18     of the organs of the interior.

19        Q.   When you say supervisory inspection, following and directing, can

20     you give us a brief explanation of those duties?

21        A.   First of all, we would go into the field and it was our duty to

22     check the legality of work of police stations, as well as the general

23     situation with law and order.  Part of our duties pertained to the

24     situation in traffic and the general situation related to crime as far as

25     police is involved in following the crime.

Page 21368

 1             Part of our duties involved the civil situation and the relation

 2     of people in uniform towards, as we used to say then, working people and

 3     citizens, as well as relations between superiors and inferiors.

 4        Q.   As we have heard, you started working on that in 1990.  I would

 5     appreciate it if you would tell us what your conclusion would be with

 6     regard to what the situation was like in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 7     in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the whole.

 8        A.   After the first multi-party elections, the first ones since 1945,

 9     and the rather stable political situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina when the

10     political parties that formed the government won the election in the

11     Ministry of the Interior itself, the situation became more complex.  This

12     primarily relates to personnel, Serb, Muslims, and Croats who were

13     verified personnel, as it were, and successfully carried out their

14     duties.  Once the new political structure came to head

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina, personnel changes took place.  What worried us

16     terribly was the fact that these tried and tested people who had been in

17     the service for over 20 years were being replaced by individuals who we

18     knew only sporadically or were not in the service at all before that.  A

19     few of us professionals came to the conclusion that professionalism no

20     longer mattered, that it was party affiliation that did in order to

21     please this new political structure and in this way people got certain

22     jobs.

23        Q.   At the time were instructive dispatches of the MUP acted upon

24     properly in accordance with the law?  And you as an inspector and your

25     colleagues, did you check whether these instructive dispatches of the MUP

Page 21369

 1     of Bosnia-Herzegovina were indeed being acted upon in the territory that

 2     you visited?

 3        A.   In part.

 4        Q.   Tell me, the town of Ljubuski is it in Eastern Herzegovina?  And

 5     in this period between 1990 and 1992, that is, did you visit the public

 6     security station in Ljubuski, and, if so, what did you find there?

 7        A.   I was instructed by Mr. Avdo Hebib, chief of administration, to

 8     go to Ljubuski because the commander of the police station who had been

 9     there was replaced and an ethnic Muslim was supposed to be appointed to

10     that position.  So I was supposed to be present during the hand-over of

11     duty, and for awhile I was supposed to stay there and help this new

12     commander of the police station.

13             To my surprise, that was the first case of this kind, I was

14     accorded full hospitality there.  But if you will allow me, with all due

15     apologies to the Trial Chamber, I will directly quote what was said, that

16     a Turk would never become the chief of the public security station in

17     Ljubusk i, that I can have lunch there, that I can have a cup of coffee

18     and go back to Sarajevo, and that I'm perfectly free to report to my

19     superiors in Sarajevo, that they were unwilling to accept that kind of

20     decision in Ljubuski.

21        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Tell us, the chief of this public

22     security station was of what ethnic background?

23        A.   He was a Croat.

24        Q.   The town of Ljubuski, is it predominantly populated by Croats?

25        A.   As far as I know, the majority were Croats, perhaps about

Page 21370

 1     80 per cent, and 20 per cent were Muslims.  I think that there was no

 2     Serb population in that area, and it is a municipality that is in

 3     Western Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   Tell me, do you remember approximately when this happened?

 5        A.   I think that it was in 1991.  As a matter of fact, the second

 6     half of September, I think, because I know that it was the grape

 7     harvesting season and that there was fruit in abundance there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You had just started answering and I interrupted you.

 9     You were saying as you went back to Sarajevo and so on.

10        A.   As I was getting out of town, out of Ljubuski that is, on the

11     right-hand side there is, probably to this day, a football stadium.  At

12     that stadium we then saw about 2- to 300 young men there, that would be

13     my estimate.  They were wearing camouflage trousers and black shirts with

14     the checkerboard sign, and they were exercising.  Since this is close to

15     the road where we were passing, we could clearly see next to the

16     checkerboard sign or emblem on the left sleeve it clearly said HOS.  That

17     was my first encounter with a paramilitary structure.  That is what I

18     then saw.

19        Q.   Since Mr. Hebib, your chief, had sent you there, the chief of

20     your administration that is, did you report back to Mr. Hebib about this

21     situation?

22        A.   It was our duty to report every time we went out into the field

23     and when we came back to headquarters.  Of course I wrote up an

24     Official Note about everything that I saw at the Ljubuski stadium.  I

25     forwarded that and there were no reactions.

Page 21371

 1        Q.   Tell me, sir, Mr. Andan, at the time when you were senior

 2     inspector 1st class in the Ministry of the Interior of the

 3     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who did you share an office

 4     with?

 5        A.   Enver Dupovac was my colleague.  He held the same rank as I did.

 6        Q.   And your direct superior was Avdo Hebib, if I understood you

 7     correctly?

 8        A.   Yes, the chief.  The chief of the administration was Avdo Hebib,

 9     and Cedo Kljajic was his deputy.

10        Q.   Tell us, was Mr. Avdo Hebib a professional policeman?

11        A.   Mr. Avdo Hebib worked at the infirmary of the republican MUP of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a psychologist.  For many years he had tried to

13     come to work in the Ministry of the Interior.  He had a problem there

14     because his father, at least according to the checks that we ran in the

15     secret police at the time, was a member of the so-called

16     Handzar Divisions during the Second World War.  He had been declared a

17     war criminal and, as such, Avdo was not eligible, according to the

18     criteria that were in place at the time, to work in the Ministry of the

19     Interior.  As for this wish of his to be transferred to the Ministry of

20     the Interior, he managed to have it fulfilled when the SDA and other

21     political parties came to power.  He was immediately appointed assistant

22     minister or undersecretary for police affairs.

23        Q.   Mr. Andan, at the time what kind of personnel policy was

24     conducted in the Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 21372

 1        A.   I think that the personnel policy that was pursued was an

 2     unprincipled one, especially as far as Bosniak personnel were concerned.

 3     I'm going to give you two examples.  As chief of the public security

 4     station, I initiated misdemeanour and criminal proceedings against a

 5     policeman.  His employment had been terminated by a decision of the

 6     ministry and I don't know what the punished meted out was for the

 7     offences that he had committed.  When a multi-party system was introduced

 8     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, one morning this policeman showed up at the

 9     entrance of the republican SUP and he was in charge of allowing people to

10     enter the building.

11             The second example was Celo Bajramovic, the deceased

12     Celo Bajramovic by now.  In 2003, we arrested him while I worked in

13     Novo Sarajevo.  He was convicted to 14 years in prison, which was a

14     precedent in terms of imprisonment policy at the time because due to

15     general crime he was convicted to 14 years in prison.  One morning as I

16     was setting out to work, there was an automobile that had been turned

17     upside-down in the street, and I asked the policeman, Who did this?  And

18     he said, Don't ask.  This is a disaster.  And I said, Why disaster?  And

19     he said, Bajramovic took out his official ID and did that and said do

20     whatever you want with the car.  This is just a small example of what was

21     going on in that year in 1991 as far as personnel is concerned.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] By way of an illustration, could

23     the witness please be shown 1D247 -- 347, tab number 1.  Your Honours, I

24     have a binder of documents that has been prepared.  Could I please have

25     the assistance of the usher so that the witness could be given these

Page 21373

 1     documents.

 2        Q.   Mr. Andan, first a question:  What was the name of the then

 3     assistant minister for personnel affairs in the MUP of the

 4     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   Before that, he was the manager of the Sarajevo brewery.  His

 6     name is Ibro Selimovic, I think.

 7        Q.   Do you know whether this gentleman Hilmo Selimovic, at some point

 8     in time during 1991, was actually replaced by another individual?

 9        A.   Yes.  I think that he did not hold that position for a very long

10     time.  If I remember correctly, Mr. Mirsad Srebrenikovic replaced him,

11     but, as far as I can remember, he came from Zagreb to replace him.

12        Q.   Please look at this document, the document in front of you.  It

13     is signed, or rather, what is typewritten is "Secretary of the SDA,

14     Hasan Cengic."  This is communication of the Party of Democratic Action,

15     and could you please give us your comment in respect of this document.

16     What I'm specifically interested in is whether this document illustrates

17     the situation that prevailed in the personnel service in the Ministry of

18     the Interior of Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   Yes, fully.  It fully illustrates the situation which came about

20     once Jusuf Pusina came to the position of chief of police as well as

21     Mirsad Srebrenikovic.  The personnel policy became radicalised.  While

22     Selimovic was in his post as well as Avdo Hebib, they did take care of

23     the long serving personnel who performed their duties in a lawful manner.

24     Once Mr. Pusina and Mr. Srebrenikovic who was unknown to all of us, and

25     later on we heard that he had come from Zagreb, and one of my colleagues

Page 21374

 1     started describing their policy as though we had been -- we had started

 2     appointing people who had just come from the mosque.  I don't know

 3     whether Mr. Srebrenikovic used to work as a religious person or he worked

 4     in the religious department of the service in Zagreb, I'm not sure, but I

 5     know that he came from those kinds of circles.

 6             It is clear from this letter that the Party of Democratic Action

 7     had a direct influence over personnel policy and it instructed all

 8     security centres that the chief was to pursue a personnel policy that was

 9     in accordance with what the SDA wanted.  The SJB personnel decisions also

10     had to be approved by the SDA and the same principle applied at higher

11     levels, too.

12        Q.   In your previous answer when you quoted the comment of your

13     colleagues concerning Mr. Srebrenikovic and his appointment, you gave us

14     the name and the last name of that colleague of yours who said that --

15     however, it wasn't recorded in the transcript because you spoke quite

16     quickly.  Would you please give us your [as interpreted] name, who it was

17     that uttered that comment and could you explain us who that person is?

18        A.   That is Kemal Sabovic.

19        Q.   And Kemal Sabovic was of which ethnicity?

20        A.   He was a Bosniak.  He was of Muslim ethnicity.  He used to work

21     in the police administration, and he was chief of the general police

22     department.  He was a colleague of mine.  Kemal Sabovic and I have known

23     each other for almost 40 years.

24        Q.   Did you socialise, were you on friendly terms with Mr. Sabovic?

25        A.   He was the only person from the service that I socialised with

Page 21375

 1     after business hours.  We would even visit each other in our homes.  We

 2     were good friends and good family friends.

 3        Q.   Did he also work in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the police administration?

 5        A.   Yes, we got to know each other back in 1983 at work when I was

 6     appointed chief of the police station in Novo Sarajevo.  At that time he

 7     was the assistant to the municipal secretary for MUP.  I then moved to

 8     Stari Grad municipality and he became an inspector in the republican MUP.

 9        Q.   Sir, let us now go back to the personnel issues in the Ministry

10     of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of the

11     Interior.  We discussed this document.  Tell me, please, the other

12     national political parties, and by that I'm referring to HDZ and the SDS,

13     did they have a similar personnel policy similar to that of the SDA?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And these other political parties, did they also appoint persons

16     who were not up to the tasks that they were to fulfill in those posts?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I want document 65 ter 781D1, tab

19     1D, to be shown to you.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, as far as I can see, the document

21     that we still have on the screen is MFI'd.  And so my question is whether

22     you are putting this document to the witness as an attempt to have it

23     de-MFI'd?

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, for reminding me.  Yes, I

25     would like to have this document de-MFI'd at this point.  Thank you very

Page 21376

 1     much.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, Your Honours, this is

 4     Exhibit 1D347.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 9        Q.   Sir, this document before you now is a dispatch from the MUP of

10     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina signed by the deputy

11     minister, Vitomir Zepinic, dated 20th of February, 1992.  Would you

12     please give us your comment, if you can?

13        A.   Practically in the same wing of the building of the republican

14     MUP, in the administration there were all departments of the

15     administration including the department for defence preparations.  We

16     were terribly surprised, if not shocked, when we learned of the content

17     of this dispatch, namely that Mr. Jasarevic would take over the task of

18     defence preparations.  We thought that he was not competent for such an

19     important post, that he was not up to it.  He was assistant secretary or

20     assistant chief in the public security station for the same matters.

21             So this was a huge jump up from the level of the municipal

22     secretariat up to the ministry level.  This was an unprecedented jump in

23     the history of the Ministry of the Interior, and this was yet another

24     example that qualification, professional qualifications were not taken

25     into account and that the only feature that was important was party

Page 21377

 1     affiliation.

 2             What was shocking for us is that he was supposed to be in charge

 3     of the entire reserve forces of the entire police in Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina.  In lower levels, each police station had its own reserve

 5     police force, and as the levels went up, the same rule applied and all of

 6     us who worked for the police administration -- was a huge chunk to bite

 7     for him and that this was a completely disastrous decision that was taken

 8     in the police.

 9        Q.   When you say "we" in the police administration, who do you have

10     in mind specifically?

11        A.   It is probably difficult to describe this situation to anybody

12     who was not in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.  There were few people

13     that one could speak openly to and tell them that a certain decision was

14     not a good one, was not a proper one.  In that period of time in 1992,

15     there were already national split taking place between the employees.

16     Even those who used to be friends during the socialist regime started

17     splitting along the ethnic lines.

18             One of the very few people that I could still talk at the time

19     was Mr. Kemal Sabovic who completely shared my opinion concerning

20     Mr. Jasarevic.  Mr. Sabovic did not support any political party and this

21     is why he was able to speak so freely to me.  He was also not a favourite

22     of the SDA, even though he was a Muslim.  And this is why he probably

23     felt he could speak his mind to me.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

Page 21378

 1     tender this document into evidence.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Well, my only objection was it wasn't shown to

 3     Mr. Zepinic when he was here and it was his document.  However, based on

 4     the witness's answers, it appears that this did actually happen and so I

 5     don't object to that.  But I do object to using documents that could have

 6     been shown to the author when they were here before.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D546, Your Honours.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, can I give another

10     explanation concerning this document.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Yes, please go ahead.

13        A.   It is true that Mr. Zepinic signed this document.  However, one

14     has to bear in mind that political parties or representatives of

15     political parties agreed who would be appointed to what post, and then

16     this was just given to Zepinic to sign as something that had been

17     drafted, to sign and implement.  It's not that I'm trying to justify the

18     actions of Zepinic, but this is how things were done at the time.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, let me show you another document, 65 ter 822D1,

20     tab 1C.  Sir, this document pertains to the events of 29th of February

21     and 1st of March, 1992, in Sarajevo and the subsequent barricades that

22     appeared in the days to follow in the streets of Sarajevo.  Would you

23     please briefly explain to us what you know about these events and the

24     barricades.

25        A.   Do you want me to clarify the events of March 1st firstly and

Page 21379

 1     then move on to subsequent events?

 2        Q.   Yes.  First the events that took place on the 1st of March, and

 3     then the barricades.

 4        A.   The intelligence that we had and also the information that I

 5     acquired later on clearly indicated that on the 1st of March in

 6     Bascarsija behind the old Orthodox church, a member of a wedding party

 7     was killed, a prominent member of a wedding party.  And that this was the

 8     fuse that set alight the events that followed in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9             The service of the interior affairs at the time basically

10     obstructed the investigation aimed at finding the perpetrator and

11     initiating prosecution.  This mostly had to do with private checks and

12     privately acquired information by way of which I learned that the murder

13     was committed by Rasim Delalic [phoen], nicknamed Celo.  What is

14     completely incredible is that the then commander of the Stari Grad police

15     station, who was the commander at the time when I was chief of that

16     station, and his name was Ismet Dahic took him in the official business

17     vehicle of MUP to Travnik and hid him there.

18        Q.   Let us just clarify this.  This is the event which took place on

19     the 1st of March, 1992?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   You were chief of the public security station in Stari Grad until

22     1990?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If you know, when did Ismet Dahic start working as commander of

25     the public security station in Stari Grad?

Page 21380

 1        A.   Given that at the time the ethnic composition was important, I

 2     represented the Serbian community, ethnically speaking, so it was natural

 3     that my first assistant would be of a Muslim ethnicity.  I knew Dahic, he

 4     was head of the armoured unit within the special units of the then

 5     ministry.  So I suggested to Grgisa Munac [phoen], I asked him to allow

 6     me to appoint him commander of the Stari Grad SJB, and he came to that

 7     post in late 1986.

 8        Q.   So if I understand you correctly, it was upon your recommendation

 9     that Ismet Dahic was appointed commander of the Stari Grad SJB in

10     Sarajevo?

11        A.   It wasn't just him.  Jusuf Pusina had also my recommendation and

12     many others.  Dahic was appointed commander of the Stari Grad SJB upon my

13     recommendation, yes.

14        Q.   Is it because of this fact that you say now that you were

15     surprised when you found out that Ismet Dahic used an official vehicle to

16     transport the perpetrator of the crime committed on the

17     1st of March, 1992, to Travnik?

18        A.   Well, he did his job properly.  He was a good commander of a

19     police station.  And I'm surprised that he did it.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Your Honour, I see the time.  Is it an appropriate moment for the

22     break.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we would resume in 20 minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

Page 21381

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, that evening after the event at

 5     Bascarsija, were you called to the Ministry of the Interior?

 6        A.   I think it was the same evening.  We received a call through the

 7     duty service in the Ministry of the Interior, I think at around midnight,

 8     to come to the Ministry of the Interior but we were not told what were

 9     the reasons.  I was one of the people who came to the ministry in order

10     to find out what this was about.  We were told that we would be told the

11     reasons when we appeared for the meeting.

12        Q.   Who told you the reasons and who attended the meeting in the

13     Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   Unfortunately, nobody told us any reasons.  We were just

15     shuffling our feet in the offices without knowing why we had to come

16     there, and then at one moment one of the colleagues said Serbs had put up

17     the barricades at the Vrbanja bridge and cut the city two halves, but

18     there were no orders for us to undertake any activities.  Sometimes

19     toward the morning, somebody thought that it would be good to go to

20     Bascarsija because the shops there open among the first shops in

21     Sarajevo, so we simply wanted to see whether we could get some of our

22     bread rolls and something else to eat.

23             So a decision was made that Mr. Music, a colleague of mine, and I

24     should go and bring some food.  I would just like to say one more thing,

25     Teufik Music is a colleague of mine who worked with me in both state

Page 21382

 1     security and public security.  He lives in the Stari Grad municipality in

 2     the settlement called Vratnik.  We went by car towards Bascarsija and we

 3     were stopped at the City Hall.  The people who stopped us wore uniforms

 4     that we were unfamiliar with at the time.  There were some people in

 5     civilian clothes and some people in uniform there.  They all had long

 6     barrels.  So of course we stopped the car.  Both Teufik Music and I

 7     recognised one Sulejman, Suljo, Agic while I was the chief, who was a

 8     shift leader in the public security station in Stari Grad, so we

 9     exchanged a few words and they let us go.

10             Teufik wanted to go up to Vratnik to pick up some things from his

11     house and that's why we first went to Vratnik.

12        Q.   Just one detail.  This Suljo Aic, was he an active policeman at

13     the time in 1992?

14        A.   Yes, as far as I could see, there were about six or seven of them

15     and he was the only active policeman among them.

16        Q.   And who were the others?

17        A.   Some of them, two or three of them, wore uniforms of the reserve

18     police force.  I could easily recognise them because they wore winter

19     uniforms made from heavy cloth.  All the reserve members of the reserve

20     police force in Bosnia and Herzegovina wore that kind of uniforms.  And

21     the remaining two or three people simply had leather jackets, jeans,

22     military boots, and a rifle.  Now, to which organisation they belonged, I

23     really wouldn't know, but it was very unusual to see a man wearing

24     civilian clothes taking part in stopping traffic and wearing a long

25     barrel on a shoulder.

Page 21383

 1        Q.   I interrupted you.  You said that you went to Vratnik, what

 2     happened there?

 3        A.   I sat in the car while Teufik went up to his apartment to pick up

 4     some stuff, I don't know what.  That settlement is very densely built, we

 5     would call it Mahala.  The streets and side-streets are very narrow.  And

 6     all of a sudden from all those houses, I saw people coming out wearing

 7     arms and going up towards the fire station.  I was extremely surprised to

 8     see that because I knew that nobody had issued the order to mobilise the

 9     reserve force.  And when Teufik returned, I told him Tufo, that was his

10     nickname, Tufo, what's all this about?  And he told me, Ah, come on

11     forget, you know people are organise themselves, it's really nothing.  I

12     mean, just look at the Serbs.  It's really nothing.  But it was something

13     very strange.

14             Later, we went down to Bascarsija, we took some hot bread rolls

15     and went whack to the ministry building.  We gave the food to our

16     colleagues and we continued sitting there without any information,

17     without any orders.  And then, maybe it was already 9.00 in the morning,

18     I said that I was going to return to my apartment.  Now, this meant that

19     I would have to cross the barricades to reach my apartment.  At some

20     moment we were told we have no idea who called you and why, but you can

21     go back to your homes.  However, you cannot pass through the barricades.

22     So whoever lived between the Vrbanja bridge and the centre could go, but

23     people who lived behind the barricades, well, it was dangerous to pass

24     through the barricades, we were told.  I took the risk, nevertheless.  I

25     reached the Vrbanja bridge, I left my car in one of the side-streets.

Page 21384

 1     That's when I saw armed people.  Some of them had stockings on their

 2     faces.  Some of them had caps.  There were very few people whom you could

 3     identify in a normal manner.  I was approached by a rather large man.  I

 4     remember him well.  He asked me where I was going.  And I told him that I

 5     live at Dolac Malta, that I was in uniform and that I had to pass

 6     through.  Somebody behind him said, Let him go.  I asked him to wait

 7     awhile so that I could get my car and that's how I managed to cross

 8     through this barricade and reach my apartment.

 9        Q.   Mr. Andan, do you remember whether Cedo Kljajic was in the MUP

10     building of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina during that

11     night together with you?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, he was.

13        Q.   You see the document on the screen before you.  Its title is

14     "Conditions for Negotiating."  It's signed by the Crisis Staff for the

15     Serbian people of the BiH.  The remaining pages contain certain articles

16     and amendments to the constitution.

17             Now, could you tell me in relation to the barricades, what was

18     the intelligence that the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina had at the time, or more precisely, who was behind the

20     barricades in Sarajevo?

21        A.   By subsequent checks, we learned that the chief of this

22     Crisis Staff was Rajko Djukic.  And together with Momcilo Mandic,

23     according to our intelligence gathered at the time, the two of them were

24     the organisers of the barricades on the 1st or the 2nd of March.  I don't

25     remember the exact date.  As for the other persons, I am unable to speak

Page 21385

 1     about them.  I only know that Momcilo Mandic as the person who organised

 2     the barricades, came to the Ministry of the Interior.  Kemal Sabovic went

 3     into the car with him and took him through the barricades.  He was trying

 4     to convince him that they simple wanted a different treatment for Serbs

 5     as opposed to two other ethnicities, in the context of the current events

 6     in Sarajevo.  He said that it was some sort of a revolt of the people,

 7     the people who did not want the situation to continue the way it was.  I

 8     know that the facts that Kemal passed through the barricade was something

 9     that members of the SDA -- took it against him.  I think that he was

10     reprimanded, to say the least, because he responded to the request of

11     Momcilo Mandic to pass through the barricades together.

12        Q.   Mr. Andan, at that time did you in the police administration have

13     any intelligence that Mico Stanisic had any role whatsoever in the

14     barricades on the 2nd of March, 1992, in Sarajevo?

15        A.   I did not have any such information.

16        Q.   Have you heard from any of your colleagues subsequently that any

17     of them had any such information?

18        A.   Truth be told, I exchanged information mostly with Kemal Sabovic

19     and he never told me that Mico had anything to do with the organisation

20     of the barricades in Sarajevo.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now that we have touched upon Mr. Stanisic, tell me

22     did you -- do you know Mr. Mico Stanisic, and if you do know him, how

23     long?

24        A.   I don't know the exact date.  I know that the year was maybe 1976

25     or 1977.  I think I first saw him in Stup where I was born, near Ilidza.

Page 21386

 1     He was dating a neighbour of mine at the time, that's when I first saw

 2     him.  And I think that she said to me then, I mean, she told me a few

 3     days later that he was a member of the Ministry of the Interior and that

 4     he was employed at the city secretariat of the interior in Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   Tell me, the document that is before us, you told us a moment ago

 6     that this Crisis Staff was headed by Rajko Djukic.  Where is Mr. Djukic

 7     from?

 8        A.   Yes.  This Crisis Staff was headed by Rajko Djukic.  It should be

 9     said that Rajko Djukic, as far as I know, was in charge of personnel

10     affairs in the Serb Democratic Party.  He was the director of the mine in

11     Milici, and I think that he is still in Milici as the ownership of the

12     mine was transformed.

13        Q.   Tell me, do you know this proclamation of the Serb people of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the one that we see before us now?

15        A.   No.  At the time I hadn't seen it.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, after you met or saw Mico Stanisic, as you say,

17     in 1976 or 1977, did you see him after that, and if so, could you tell us

18     more about it?

19        A.   After this first encounter of ours, what I found out about

20     Mico Stanisic was that he had completed the school of the Ministry of the

21     Interior in Sarajevo and now was it already that year that he was a

22     student at the faculty of law in Sarajevo, I don't know, but I know that

23     he got a degree in law at the University of Sarajevo later.  I don't know

24     exactly what year I heard that he was not satisfied probably with his

25     status in the Ministry of the Interior, and that, therefore, he went to

Page 21387

 1     work in UPI, that was a company that was involved in agriculture,

 2     agricultural machinery, food, produce, and so on.

 3             As chief of the OUP of Stari Grad, I went to visit this UPI

 4     distribution centre once, so they were distributing goods throughout

 5     Sarajevo to different super markets.  Avdo Skaljic was the director of

 6     the entire organisation, and Avdo's wife was president of Executive Board

 7     in the municipality where I was chief of the police station.  That is how

 8     we went to the UPI.  That was the second time I saw Mico Stanisic.  Of

 9     course we exchanged greetings.  He was a former colleague of mine and I

10     was told that he was the deputy general manager there; that is to say,

11     Skaljic's deputy.

12        Q.   Did you know that Mico Stanisic had returned to the Ministry of

13     the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if so,

14     did you know which post he held?

15        A.   Yes, of course I knew.  As the personnel transformation was

16     underway in 1991 -- just by way of a small digression, may I say that the

17     city secretariat for awhile did not have a secretary, as it was called at

18     the time, of the city SUP.  And for awhile it was being said that before

19     the multi-party elections, I was supposed to assume the position of city

20     secretary.  Mico Stanisic came then in 1991, I believe, to that position.

21     He became the secretary of the city MUP of Sarajevo.

22        Q.   Since Mr. Stanisic came at the time that you just told us about,

23     did you comment on Mico Stanisic's appointment when talking to your

24     colleagues?

25        A.   I think that Mico was one of the few people to have come to such

Page 21388

 1     an important position with that kind of proper professional background.

 2     I already said that he had completed the school of internal affairs and

 3     worked in the city secretariat.  I think that he worked on general crime

 4     matters.  He had the proper educational background as well.  He had a

 5     degree in law.  So there were very few negative comments in respect of

 6     the fact that such a person had come back to the service after so many

 7     years.  However, later there were comments with regard to Mico's

 8     attitude, or rather, his work in the city SUP.

 9        Q.   Tell us, what kind of comments?

10        A.   I'm very sorry to have to say this, but it is an undeniable fact

11     that most of the objections raised in view of Mico's work were those

12     raised by ethnic Muslims.  At the time they said that he was very rigid

13     and a man who did not lend himself to co-operation.  In a way, I tried to

14     check that.  By mentioning Mr. Sabovic yet again, as far as I can

15     remember, Sabovic had also been transferred to the city SUP, and he told

16     me that the man was 100 per cent right, that Mico was just asking for

17     people to work lawfully and on the basis of principles; whereas those who

18     had come to the ministry from some other structures thought that people

19     could work any which way they wanted.

20             I was given an example when Mr. Stanisic opposed the issuing of

21     passports.  In one period of time in 1991, there was an expansion, or

22     rather, a lot of ethnic Muslims came from Sandzak.  Over night, they were

23     given IDs in the Stari Grad station.

24        Q.   Let us just clarify the matter.  Where is Sandzak, the place that

25     they came from?

Page 21389

 1        A.   At the time, they came from another republic; that is, Serbia.

 2     As they came to Stari Grad, to the SUP of Stari Grad, where I worked

 3     until 1990, without any problem whatsoever, they were issued IDs and then

 4     you also needed to apply for residency, and they were given these papers.

 5     As far as I can remember, you could not be issued such papers if you did

 6     not have permanent employment.  They, nevertheless, were issued these

 7     papers.  Since the city secretariat also issued passports, so it wasn't

 8     the municipal secretariats that were issuing passports, it was the city

 9     secretariat that issued passports.  On one day they would get an ID and

10     the very next day they would apply for a passport.  As far as I know,

11     Mr. Stanisic was opposed to that, and he did not allow passports to be

12     issued in that way.  I don't know, perhaps he had other conflicts.  But,

13     as far as I know, this conflict culminated in the non-issuing of

14     passports, but there were probably other things involved as well.

15        Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Mico Stanisic was replaced, and if so,

16     where was he transferred?

17        A.   I think that a compromise was reached.  Mr. Stanisic was replaced

18     by Mr. Dragan Kijac, and Mico Stanisic became an advisor to the minister

19     of the interior; that is to say, Mr. Alija Delimustafic.

20        Q.   Mr. Andan, tell me, first of all, where was your office in the

21     MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in which parts of

22     the building?

23        A.   It was on the second floor, the right-hand wing of the building.

24     On that same floor was also the administration of the crime police.  The

25     chief of the police administration sat on one side of the corridor, and

Page 21390

 1     the chief of the crime police sat -- or, rather, had his office on the

 2     other side.  So we were on the left-hand side of the right-hand wing of

 3     the building.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do remind us, please, who was the chief of the police

 8     administration and who was his deputy?

 9        A.   If you mean the police administration, the first period was

10     Avdo Hebib and his deputy was Cedo Kljajic.  And then, I think it was

11     towards the end of 1991, it was Jusuf Pusina who became chief of the

12     administration and Cedo Kljajic stayed on as his deputy.

13        Q.   Was your office opposite the office of the chief of the police

14     administration?

15        A.   No.  It was opposite the chief of the administration for crime,

16     so I was a bit further down.

17        Q.   And who was in charge of the crime administration?  Who was the

18     chief?

19        A.   At the time it was Momcilo Mandic who was chief of the crime

20     administration.

21        Q.   Mr. Andan, do you know that MUP employees who were ethnic Serbs

22     came to Momcilo Mandic's office to attend some meetings?

23             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry, can we have a time-period for this?

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And in which period, from when?

Page 21391

 1        A.   If you are asking about the period of 1991, I remember one

 2     particular case when a meeting was organised in Mr. Mandic's office.  It

 3     was attended by Serb personnel.  I was also invited to that meeting, and

 4     as I set out to the office, the door was open.  When I saw Mr. Kovac, I

 5     turned around and went back.  I didn't want to go in.  I think that in

 6     addition to Momcilo Mandic, this meeting was attended by Mr. Stanisic,

 7     Mr. Kijac, Mr. Cedo Kljajic, Mr. Kovac, and I don't know who else could

 8     have been there.

 9        Q.   Is that something that was call the collegium of the Serb MUP or

10     the members, or the collegium of the members of the MUP who were part of

11     the Serb people?

12        A.   I don't know whether it had the official form of a collegium, but

13     it was a gathering of persons, top personnel in the MUP of the

14     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were ethnic Serbs.

15        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Andan, the top personnel of other ethnic

16     backgrounds, to the best of your knowledge, did they also have similar

17     meetings?

18        A.   Yes, but in a far smarter and more perfidious way.  They did not

19     meet that way in public as the Serbs did.

20        Q.   When you say smarter and more perfidious, tell us what you mean.

21        A.   They did not meet on the premise us of the Ministry of the

22     Interior.  They did not meet there.  I know with full certainty because I

23     was an eye-witness at one such meeting or two in the restaurant

24     Sentata [phoen] where Croat personnel met.  The owner of that restaurant

25     is the brother of Bruno Stojic, his name is Mato Stojic.  And on two or

Page 21392

 1     three occasions, because that is the only restaurant or perhaps there was

 2     another one as well where fish could be had as well as wine -- we went

 3     there often, even before these party divisions and before their

 4     victories.  Several times we found Bruno Stojic there and Croat personnel

 5     who held key positions at the time in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     including, among others, Dragan Vikic who was then commander of the joint

 7     Special Police Unit of the MUP of BH.

 8        Q.   Dragan Vikic, was he also an ethnic Croat?

 9        A.   That is hard to say because some checks suggest that his father

10     is a Serb and his mother is Croat, but then he, himself, opted for being

11     a Croat.

12        Q.   Did the members of the Muslim people meet in Avdo Hebib's office?

13        A.   Yes, but we were not allowed to enter these offices when his

14     co-workers who were ethnic Muslims were in there.  Several times I felt

15     it was necessary for me to inform him about certain matters.  However,

16     his secretary would not allow me to come in because meetings were being

17     held there.  Most probably - no, it's not most probably, it's for

18     certain - that it was ethnic Muslims who worked in the ministry.  And

19     sometimes also these SDA party leaders came to see him for certain

20     consultations, and these were meetings that were also beyond what we

21     could do.

22        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, given that you worked in that

Page 21393

 1     building and given that your offices were located there, during that

 2     period of time, that is to say 1991 and 1992, was there a division which

 3     took place along ethnic lines in the leadership of the MUP of the

 4     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was clear.  Unfortunately, this national denomination

 6     started manifesting itself among lower-level officials as well.  I sat

 7     once with Enver Dupovac with whom I had had a complex task.  We had to

 8     transfer from Kladusa, from the Cazin region, 15 busloads of civilians,

 9     women, children, and men, to Western Herzegovina.  Those were refugees

10     from Croatia because the war had been going on there for quite awhile.

11     We completed that task successfully, even though we had a lot of problems

12     in the area of Petrovac, and we functioned really well as a team, it was

13     good team work.

14        Q.   This gentleman, Enver Dupovac, was he also an inspector in the

15     police administration?

16        A.   Yes, I've mentioned him before.

17        Q.   Did you share an office, the two of you?

18        A.   Yes, our desks were next to each other.  We were office mates.

19     Normally, two inspectors shared an office, each of them had his desk and

20     a safe where they kept documents.

21        Q.   All right.  I interrupted you in your answer.  Happened to

22     Enver Dupovac?

23        A.   It was a shock and a very unpleasant situation for me which I

24     failed to comprehend at that time.  It was 1992, and up until April of

25     1992 I made every effort to go to the Ministry of the Interior every day

Page 21394

 1     for work because I thought it was my duty.  It was they who paid my

 2     salary, after all.  I think it was April and I came to the office earlier

 3     then Enver because he used to commute from Hadzici which is near

 4     Sarajevo.  He walked into the office, put his papers down, looked at me

 5     and said, Are you still in the office?  And then I looked at him and said

 6     laconically, Where am I supposed to be, Enver?  It was already the period

 7     of time when divisions had taken place in the ministry, and he said to

 8     me, Well, you should be with your people.  There's no room for you here.

 9     It was a shock for me coming from a colleague with whom just three months

10     prior to that I had performed a very complex and difficult task.  We had

11     to watch each other's back during that mission.  And then just three

12     months later, he says to me, What are you doing here still?

13        Q.   Mr. Andan, were you against the division of the MUP of the

14     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

15        A.   I was.  I was because similar to many colleagues of mine who were

16     Serbs, I had a wrong assessment of the overall situation.  We thought

17     jointly that the army was not put into use and that eventually army would

18     introduce law and order and bring back the situation as it used to be.  I

19     was explicitly against any such division.

20        Q.   When you say "the army," are you referring to the JNA and to the

21     situation in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22        A.   Yes, I'm referring to the Yugoslav People's Army.

23        Q.   According to you -- or, rather, did the Yugoslav People's Army

24     intervene in the end, as you expected them to do?

25        A.   Well, ultimately that was my greatest disappointment.  The entire

Page 21395

 1     system was based on the Yugoslav People's Army and the principle that

 2     prevailed in the entire Yugoslavia was that funds had it to be invested

 3     into developing the Yugoslav People's Army, into developing their

 4     educational facilities, housing facilities, equipment and so on.  We all

 5     had to deal with cuts so that they would be stronger, so that should the

 6     situation come to that, they would calm the situation down, introduce law

 7     and order and ensure that the situation was put back on normal tracks.

 8     And for me, that was the greatest disappointment, the JNA.

 9        Q.   Mr. Andan, even after the MUP was divided -- no, actually, tell

10     me first, what was the situation like with the Croatian senior officials

11     in the MUP of Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in March and April

12     of 1992, ethnic Croat senior officials?

13        A.   I think that they were the first one to leave the Ministry of the

14     Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They even used

15     official vehicles of the ministry.  On one day after greeting all of us,

16     even I greeted Bruno Stojic, we even kissed each other and I wished him

17     all the best, they left to Herceg-Bosna.  There were rumours and

18     speculations that they had taken a lot of equipment with them from the

19     analysis department, they took some things and they got into official

20     vehicles.  And upon having been bid farewell, both by Serbs and Muslims,

21     they got into the cars and left.

22        Q.   In April after the MUP was divided, did you continue coming to

23     work to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

24     until what time?

25        A.   I did come to work but not at regular hours.  I would come

Page 21396

 1     sometimes at 10.00 a.m. or sometimes during business hours because nobody

 2     ever asked us any longer where we were, nor were we issued with any

 3     tasks.  I would simply come to see whether there had been any changes,

 4     whether there had been any new pieces of information.  And then on one

 5     day, on one morning, I don't know the date or time any longer, when I

 6     reached the MUP building, the central gate had already been moved to a

 7     side-street where the garage entrance was.  I tried to enter the building

 8     and then a policeman came out and told me that I wasn't allowed into the

 9     Ministry of the Interior, that that had been an order issued.  I insisted

10     upon being told what order it was and whom did it ban from entering.  It

11     was the order of the chief of the administration for providing security

12     to persons and facilities.  And after me insisting, he finally said that

13     it was the Serbs who were banned from entering the building.

14             I revolted and then I entered the building.  I spent three or

15     four minutes there at the most, and then I went out.  I was so upset at

16     this order of the chief who had prevented me, a long-standing member of

17     the MUP, worker, from entering the building.

18        Q.   And who was the chief of the administration for providing

19     security to persons and facilities?

20        A.   Unfortunately, that was my friend Teufik Music.

21        Q.   Was that the same person with whom you went on the first of

22     March, on that night, to his apartment?

23        A.   Yes, the same person who started working together with me in the

24     state security service, and our careers developed alongside until that

25     time when we went together to his apartment.

Page 21397

 1        Q.   How long did you remain in your apartment in Sarajevo, sir?

 2        A.   I don't know exactly the time, but I know that some time in

 3     mid-April of 1992, I took out of Sarajevo my children, my mother-in-law,

 4     and my brother-in-law's children.  I took them in a car to Trebinje.  And

 5     then from Trebinje, I took them to Herceg-Novi.  As people in Sarajevo

 6     used to say, I took my children to a safe place.  That's what everybody

 7     else was doing.  I then, with some difficulties, returned to Sarajevo

 8     again.  That was the first time I left Sarajevo.  And my definite

 9     departure from Sarajevo came between the 10th and 15th of May.  I know

10     that as I left, a convoy of children was stopped at Ilidza, the children

11     of Sarajevo were supposed to be taken to another location.  I remember

12     that event.

13        Q.   Mr. Andan, did somebody suggest to you, and, if so, who, to take

14     your children and the other relatives out of Sarajevo?

15        A.   I have to go back to an event which preceded me taking my

16     children out of Sarajevo, which caused me to do that.  One day my

17     apartment was searched.  One active policeman and some people whom I

18     didn't know at all carried out this search.  They allegedly were looking

19     for a concealed radio and weapons.  At the time, I had an official

20     pistol, and of course I had an official ID and permit, and they did not

21     confiscate the pistol from me.  I have to say that this search was

22     carried out in accordance with all of the rules.

23             After that first search since Mr. Sabovic and I were neighbours,

24     he said to me, What are you waiting for?  Can't you see that everybody

25     else is taking their children out of Sarajevo?  Why don't you do the

Page 21398

 1     same?  This is how I took the decision to take the children to

 2     Herceg-Novi.

 3        Q.   Tell me, please, how many more searches of your apartment came

 4     after that, and what did that look like?

 5        A.   My apartment was searched twice after that.  The first time I

 6     asked them to produce the search warrant which was required at the time.

 7             And the second search was also carried out in accordance with the

 8     rules.  I did not ask for search warrant on that occasion because there

 9     were armed people outside of the door.

10             The third search was a brutal one.  It was the criminals who came

11     to search my apartment on the third occasion.  The persons whom we used

12     to detain previously, interview, the persons whom -- whose premises we

13     used to search, and so on.  The head of that search team, if I may call

14     them that, was nicknamed Rus [phoen], a criminal from Hrasno who hit me

15     with the rifle-butt and pushed the rifle barrel into the my mouth, saying

16     to me that the times had changed and that he was the boss now and I was a

17     nothing.

18             After the third search of my apartment, there was a telephone

19     call which definitely made me flee Sarajevo.  If you allow me, I will

20     explain.  I was on good terms with Dr. Nakas, a surgeon from the military

21     hospital who became a member of the SDA party in 1991 and most likely had

22     some information.  Unfortunately, he died.  He was a good man.  And on

23     the telephone, he told me that I should leave Sarajevo because neither he

24     or anybody else could guarantee my safety any longer in Sarajevo.  That

25     morning at 3.00 a.m., I got into my car, I went to Ilidza.  Fortunately,

Page 21399

 1     nobody stopped me all the way until the barricades or the Serbian police

 2     check-point at Ilidza.

 3        Q.   Tell me, when you got out to Ilidza, where did you say, with who?

 4        A.   I stayed with my sister who now lives in the United States in

 5     Phoenix.

 6        Q.   When did you leave Ilidza and where did you go to?

 7        A.   In a statement I said that I stayed for about 10 or 15 days.

 8     However, I believe that that is not correct.  I spent less time in

 9     Ilidza.  Mr. Kovac gave me a patrol car that transferred me to the former

10     school of the interior in Vrace and then I was transferred by automobile.

11        Q.   And then, in fact, you joined the MUP of Republika Srpska

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   When I -- I arrived in Ilidza, Mr. Kovac made me an offer, that I

14     stay there as his deputy.  I refused that because before the war, during

15     the war, and after the war, I did not agree with some of his ideas and

16     thoughts.  So in Vrace, I fully made myself available to the Ministry of

17     the Interior of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   Tell me, which administration was it in the Ministry of the

19     Interior of Republika Srpska that you were assigned to?

20        A.   If you allow me, I would not want to omit a detail.  Maybe it's

21     not all that important, but ultimately it may turn out to be important.

22     It has to do with before I was given my new assignment.

23        Q.   Please go ahead but try to be as brief as possible.

24        A.   Before arriving in Vrace, I had some problems with the Serbs.

25     Why did I stay that long?  Why did I leave so late?  Some people said

Page 21400

 1     that I came there as a spy for the Muslim intelligence services, so there

 2     were some problems, even with regard to my assignment.  As far as what I

 3     heard from Mr. Skipina, at one point Mr. Stanisic reacted as minister of

 4     the interior and said that I am a tried and tested person, that there's a

 5     shortage of proper personnel anyway, and that it would be best to give me

 6     one of the most difficult assignments in the territory of

 7     Republika Srpska at the time, so that I show to some doubting Thomases

 8     where my place is among the members of the Ministry of the Interior of

 9     Republika Srpska.

10             Quite simply, in that way he cut this whole story short, and then

11     from Vrace I was sent to Brcko.

12        Q.   Just one thing, when you said appropriate personnel proper, did

13     you mean professionally or did you mean it in some other sense?

14        A.   When I speak about the police, I speak in a professional sense

15     invariably.

16        Q.   As for this trip to Brcko, did you set out together with some

17     other employee of the police or not, or did you travel on your own?

18        A.   Yes, I have to say that there were some other problems there,

19     too.  I was supposed to be given an official vehicle and they wouldn't

20     give me one.  I somehow managed to get to Pale and then Danilo Vuckovic

21     and I were given instructions.  I think that we received a dispatch,

22     actually, to the effect that we were supposed to go to Bijeljina where we

23     would report to Mr. Predrag Jesuric and that then he would give us

24     instructions as to where we were supposed to go, where he was supposed to

25     go and where I was supposed to go.

Page 21401

 1        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Danilo Vuckovic, who was he, what was his position?

 2        A.   He was an inspector in the crime police.

 3        Q.   I know that you told us that you are not very good at dates, but

 4     do you remember roughly what the month was when you arrived in Bijeljina?

 5        A.   I think that was the beginning of June.  I remember something

 6     that happened in Bijeljina, something that is hard to forget.

 7        Q.   Please go ahead and tell us.

 8        A.   We were taken from one police station to another because there

 9     weren't enough vehicles, so we changed vehicles in the process.  When we

10     arrived at the station in Bijeljina, all the streets were under siege as

11     it were.  These persons wore masks on their faces, they wore black caps

12     or fur caps with cockades.  We didn't know what this was all about until

13     we got to the police station.  Then Dragan Devedlaka walked out of the

14     police station.  I think that he was acting chief of centre in Bijeljina.

15     And he said to us to get out of Bijeljina as soon as possible, to flee.

16     He got into a car and left, and we asked this driver, I think he was the

17     driver of the patrol vehicle from Zvornik, to get us out of Bijeljina.

18             We were stopped in the centre of Bijeljina by these masked and

19     armed persons who checked our IDs.  They spoke to someone over a

20     hand-held radio.  They addressed him as Vojvoda, and they said these men

21     are from Sarajevo.  Then I was allowed to leave.  We did leave Bijeljina

22     then and went to the Republic of Serbia, to the hotel in Banja Koviljaca

23     where we spent two days not knowing what was going on in Bijeljina.  Then

24     somehow by telephone, we spoke to either Jesuric or someone from Pale, I

25     cannot say now.  The situation in Bijeljina calmed down.  They sent a

Page 21402

 1     vehicle to pick us up.  And then we came to Bijeljina and I know that we

 2     reported to Mr. Jesuric.

 3        Q.   When you reported to Mr. Jesuric, what kind of assignments were

 4     you given -- or, rather, did Mr. Jesuric give you any assignments?

 5        A.   I think that in the dispatch that was signed by Mr. Stanisic, our

 6     tasks had already been defined.  When preparing for our departure, I

 7     don't know who it was that told us what our tasks were, but we were not

 8     told who would go where because we thought that both of us were to

 9     inspect various police stations.  Jesuric assigned me to Brcko and

10     Danilo Vukovic to Zvornik.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Let us have a look at tab 13A, the P number is

12     2018.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, as interesting and fascinating all

14     of this is, and I really appreciate the witness's account of what

15     happened, nevertheless, I think that I should still remind you to sharpen

16     your focus.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, with all due respect, Bijeljina

18     is the municipality in our indictment, and all of the previous witness

19     answers dealt with a substantial part of the case of the Office of the

20     Prosecutor concerning the split of the MUP of Socialist Republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina and creation of the Serbian MUP.  Now, the witness

22     explained how he came to Bijeljina, what was the situation in Bijeljina.

23     And I think it's relevant because it's June 1992, and now we are moving

24     to the situation where his assignment is, you will hear that his

25     assignment was to go -- and you can see from the document that his

Page 21403

 1     assignment was to go to Brcko, which is again the municipality which is

 2     in our indictment.  And what are his duties and what did he found out in

 3     Brcko, I think is very relevant for this case.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you for this.  I'm not suggesting that it

 5     is not without some relevance, but I urge you to focus on the lines of

 6     responsibility that are the basis of this case.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, this document that we have before us, can

 9     you give us your comment on this document?

10        A.   Well, this was signed by Mr. Jesuric as head of the CSB

11     Bijeljina.  This was a document that allowed me to enter Brcko and work

12     there, this clearly shows what my duties are and what I was supposed to

13     do in Brcko.  I could not just arrive in Brcko, get my official ID out,

14     say I'm an inspector and start working there.  I was supposed to bring

15     stability to the police station in Brcko --

16             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry, just for the record, I want to indicate

17     that the English has the date as the 28th of June, but clearly from the

18     original, the date is the 28th of May.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.  Your Honours, I see the

20     time.  Since I have been moving in a different municipality, Brcko, I

21     suggest that we adjourn for the day and start tomorrow.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Andan, we are about to take the first

25     adjournment for the day.  In terms of your testimony which as I indicated

Page 21404

 1     to you is expected to run over several days, I remind you that one of the

 2     consequences of being sworn as a witness is that until you are released

 3     by the Chamber -- by the Tribunal, you cannot have any communication

 4     whatever with counsel from either side in this matter.  Additionally, in

 5     such communications and casual conversations as you have with anybody

 6     else outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony that you

 7     are giving here.  Do you understand?

 8             So we rise and we assume in this courtroom tomorrow morning at

 9     9.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.

12                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of May,

13                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.