1 Wednesday, 1 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
10 everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. For the Prosecution, I'm
12 Tom Hannis, along with Gerry Dobbyn, Marina Vilova, and Crispian Smith.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence
15 this morning. Thank you.
16 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
17 Aleksandar Aleksic representing Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 And if there are no preliminary matters, could the usher please
20 escort the witness to the stand.
21 Mr. Hannis, while the witness is on his way in, now that you have
22 made a start, what do you expect -- how much longer do you expect that
23 you would be?
24 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, taking into account that I feel
25 like I need to impose at lease a half-hour sanction on myself for the
1 delay while the witness read a document yesterday and therefore reducing
2 my time from 20 to 19 and a half hours, I'm hoping that I can be finished
3 on Thursday. But I'll have a better idea at the end of the day. But I
4 was hoping I could be done on Thursday near the end of the day, if not
5 the end of the day. Yes, tomorrow.
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
7 And if that happens, Mr. Zecevic, do you have a witness who would
8 be available for Friday?
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, depending on what time will Mr. Hannis finish
10 his cross-examination, I will have some re-direct. At this point I can't
11 say how much. But, Your Honours, we will not have another witness for
12 Friday. Our next witness is scheduled for Monday next week.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 MR. ZECEVIC: If the record can show that Mr. Cvijetic joined the
16 Stanisic Defence. Thank you.
17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Andan, good morning to you. I remind you,
18 before Mr. Hannis continues his cross-examination, that you're still on
19 your oath.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 I'd like to resume by showing the witness Exhibit 1D547. We were
22 looking at this yesterday. I think it's Prosecution tab 83.
23 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR ANDAN [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
1 Q. While that's coming up, Mr. Andan, I just wanted to ask you,
2 before I forgot, about certain persons that you will have known.
3 Cedo Kljajic, Dragan Kijac, and Tomo Kovac, do you know, are all three of
4 those men still alive?
5 A. First of all, good morning.
6 As far as I know, they are alive.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, we were looking at this document dated
8 2nd of June. This was a collegium meeting in the SJB in Brcko. In
9 regard to this meeting, did you send any written report about this to
10 Mr. Jesuric [Realtime transcript read in error "Jasarevic"] or to MUP
11 headquarters or anyone?
12 A. There is a mistake again. It's not "Jasarevic." You probably
13 meant "Jesuric."
14 Q. Yes, I did. And that's what I tried to say, but maybe my English
15 pronunciation of it is not coming across very well for the interpreters.
16 Predrag Jesuric is who I was referring to.
17 And my question is: Did you send a report to him or to anyone
18 else at the CSB or MUP headquarters about this meeting in Brcko?
19 A. Of course. Normally, the procedure for such a meeting or
20 supervisory inspection is to send a copy of the report to the
21 Ministry of the Interior. Another copy goes to the chief of the security
22 services centre in Bijeljina.
23 Q. Who organised this meeting?
24 A. On behalf of the minister of the interior, I received
25 instructions from Pale to carry out the supervisory inspection and
1 provide all indispensable assistance in order to improve the situation in
2 the police station in Brcko, which means that I organised this meeting in
3 order to discuss some elementary topics. And it was necessary to inform
4 everybody with their rights and duties and tasks. I believe that this
5 memo contains a brief outline of all the tasks of the crime prevention
6 service, of the deputy, of the assistants, and everybody else in the
7 police station.
8 Q. I think you told us yesterday that there were sort of two sorts
9 of inspections. One would be what I would describe as a surprise or a
10 spot inspection where you showed up unannounced, and the other was an
11 inspection where you gave notice ahead of time that, We're coming to your
12 station for an inspection; is that correct? Were those two kinds of
13 inspections that were done?
14 A. Yes, that's how it was before the war.
15 Q. And this inspection, was this a surprise inspection or is this
16 one where Mr. Veselic in Brcko knew you were coming ahead of time?
17 A. I think he knew that I was going to come, so it was an announced
19 Q. And in regards to the meeting, who set the agenda and who made
20 the assignments that we see here? Was that the chief or was that you or
21 was that done in co-ordination between the two of you?
22 A. We had a preparatory meeting before this one. I don't have the
23 power to appoint managers, not even to nominate them. This is within the
24 power of the chief of the public security station. So we had a
25 preparatory meeting. Since I already knew the structure of the personnel
1 in that police station, I made some suggestions. And I have to say that
2 the chief, Mr. Veselic, accepted everything that I suggested to him. So
3 I did not have any legal authority to choose his associates. It was
4 within his powers. But I made suggestions that he accepted.
5 Q. When you were talking about the situation in Brcko, I think on
6 Friday at page 21416, you he mentioned that one of the problems that
7 related to Brcko was that it was a rich area, it was a port area, and so
8 the paramilitaries who were interested in looting saw that as a good
9 target. And you mentioned, for example, 150 trucks of
10 Marlboro cigarettes were taken away from the harbour.
11 Do you know what or which paramilitary group was involved in
13 A. It is true that I stated this. That's what I heard at the time.
14 Two formations were dominant in the area, Arkan's forces and the forces
15 of Major Mauzer.
16 Q. Thank you. Who or what was the municipal authority in Brcko at
17 the time? I mean, was it the Municipal Assembly or was it functioning as
18 a Crisis Staff or a War Presidency? Do you recall what it was when you
19 were there that first time?
20 A. I can't quite decide between the Crisis Staff and the
21 War Presidency, but, all right, I'm going to choose the second option; it
22 was the Crisis Staff. I remember that the president of the Crisis Staff
23 was a physician. I can't remember his name. And then there was also
24 Mr. Ristanovic, I think he was mentioned here already, and he performed
25 the function of the president of the Executive Board. And I think that
1 that was the way that the authorities functioned.
2 However, during that time, I and Mr. Veselic had more contacts
3 with Mr. Ristanovic.
4 Q. I want to ask you, I believe the individual you're talking about
5 is probably Djordje Ristanic. Does that name ring a bell?
6 A. Yes, that's correct. Djordje Ristanic.
7 Q. Did you -- did you have a chance to meet with him personally and
8 talk to him about the situation in Brcko and what had gone on in Brcko
9 after the bridges were blown up?
10 A. Yes. As I have already stated, I had the opportunity to speak to
11 Mr. Djordje two or three times. The topic of our conversation was not
12 the destruction of the bridges in Brcko. The basic purpose of the
13 conversation was to return the police forces from the front line, to
14 reinforce the town with those forces, and to establish public order in
15 town. We also needed to adapt the functioning of the police station to
16 the prevailing situation in Brcko.
17 Mr. Veselic informed him about the situation. He introduced me
18 as a man who had arrived on behalf of the Secretariat of the Interior in
19 order to provide assistance with regard to the establishment of the
20 organs of the police station. I think at that first meeting I did not
21 say anything. Later on we spoke, I made my suggestions about what needed
22 to be done to consolidate the situation.
23 Q. You mentioned at page 21420 that one of the first things that you
24 did was request from the municipal authorities to introduce a curfew, so
25 was that the Crisis Staff or the War Presidency through whom you
1 requested and got a curfew set up in Brcko?
2 A. I believe that we first agreed that the members of the police
3 should be withdrawn from the front line. The local authorities supported
4 this request before the military. And at that meeting with the
5 representatives of the military authorities, we managed to agree that
6 about 170 people should be withdrawn from the front line. That's when we
7 began to divide the area of the station in sub-areas and patrol sectors,
8 and we also formed an intervention platoon. So those were all
9 preparatory measures. And after that we requested the introduction of a
10 curfew. I think that was the sequence of events.
11 We could not request the curfew immediately, before we had the
12 forces at our disposal who would then control the area during the curfew.
13 We also requested -- to be honest, I'm not sure whether we requested this
14 from the War Presidency or the Crisis Staff, but we sent a formal request
15 asking for their support and their approval so that we could advertise in
16 the media that a curfew would be introduced with the appropriate hours.
17 Q. I want to confirm with you, then: It's your view that the
18 municipal authority, whether that's the Assembly or the Crisis Staff or
19 the War Presidency, was the body that had the authority to establish a
20 curfew and not you in the police; is that right? That was something
21 within their purview?
22 A. You see, we made a proposal and that proposal was accepted. We
23 wanted to obtain the approval of the political authorities for
24 introduction of this particular measure. We received the approval and
25 introduced the measure, and then we announced it in the media.
1 Q. And the police were the ones who implemented it; right? The
3 A. That is correct. Maybe I skipped a detail. We also had to agree
4 on this particular measure with the representatives of the military
5 authorities. We had to inform them that everybody would be checked
6 except ambulances, police cars, military police; in other words, persons
7 and institutions who could be legally found in breach of the curfew
8 without any consequences.
9 Q. And to your knowledge, nothing wrong or improper or illegal or in
10 violation of the Law on Internal Affairs for you as the police to enforce
11 that curfew established by the municipal authorities?
12 A. As far as I can remember, the regulations that were in force at
13 the time, I think there was nothing unlawful.
14 Q. You mentioned that in Brcko at the SJB at the time there was just
15 one person basically doing the job of both heading national security and
16 the crime service. Did I understand your answer right about that?
17 A. Yes, you understood me correctly. Mr. Gavrilovic is brother of a
18 colleague of mine from Sarajevo, Mr. Velavic [phoen]. I can't remember
19 his first name, but I know that he is brother of Vojo Gavrilovic.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you also talk with him about the situation in
21 Brcko in the preceding weeks or month before you got there at the
22 beginning of June?
23 A. If I understood you correctly, you're asking me whether I spoke
24 to him when I was there, in the field? Yes, I spoke to him. He was
25 member of the collegium of the chief of the police station, so it was
1 quite logical that I would speak to the person who heads the crime
2 prevention service. It's a fact. He was also at the head of the
3 national security.
4 Q. At page 21428, Mr. Zecevic asked you if the name Goran Jelisic
5 rang a bell, and you said you never met this person but you knew the name
6 of Goran Jelisic, nicknamed Adolf, and that's what the top personnel at
7 the Brcko police station said to me.
8 The top personnel, you're referring to Mr. Veselic and who else,
9 if you remember, that you might have heard about Jelisic from? Did
10 Mr. Gavrilovic tell you about him?
11 A. I think that you misspoke. It's not that I knew of the name of
12 Goran Jelisic. In Brcko it was the first time that I heard about
13 Goran Jelisic, nicknamed Adolf. Mr. Gavrilovic mentioned the name, and
14 he said that this person is somebody who sows the fear among the
15 employees of the police because he is unable to say good morning without
16 drawing a gun. He wasn't of sound mind.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe part of the witness's answer was not
18 recorded. Namely, Mr. -- when he was talking what Mr. Gavrilovic told to
19 him, he was mentioning the state of mind of this person. Perhaps you can
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. Witness, you heard what Mr. Zecevic said, can you amplify
23 anything about that?
24 A. Yes. Mr. Gavrilovic told me that he was mentally incompetent.
25 Or, to put it simple, he was crazy and everybody was afraid of him. He
1 cannot say good morning without shooting. It was enough for somebody to
2 look askance at him and he would shoot at that person. Everybody was
3 afraid of him in Brcko. Even policemen avoid him.
4 Q. And did you also hear about Mr. Jelisic from chief Veselic and/or
5 from Djordje Ristanic?
6 A. I believe I did not speak to them about this particular topic.
7 Especially not with Djordje Ristanic.
8 Q. Whoever you spoke to, were you not told that Mr. Jelisic had
9 committed dozens of murders in Brcko right in front of the police
10 station, some of them, some in the town park, some on the road down to
11 the river, and many at Luka? Did you not hear about that?
12 A. Whether they were not quite prepared to tell me something like
13 that, whether I did not gain their confidence, I wouldn't know. I was
14 simply told that he committed some murders in the area of the Brcko
15 municipality, but I was not told any details about where or how it
16 happened. Yes, it was said that he committed some murders of Muslims.
17 As I have already stated, they told me that he was mentally
18 incompetent and that the policemen were afraid of him as well. So I knew
19 no details. You have to bear in mind the fact that I had just arrived
20 there, so I assume that they did not want to entrust me with some of the
21 things that they may have known.
22 Q. But one of the purposes of your visit is to help them get the
23 police station up and functioning like a police station should; right?
24 A. I don't think you're right in the first part of your question. I
25 went there to set up some structures in the police station, to
1 consolidate the situation, to see to it that executives are appointed and
2 that they be briefly instructed as to their duties, and that they were to
3 do all the work that they were duty-bound to do, to process whatever
4 hadn't been processed and put to practical use all the information and
5 intelligence that they had gathered. I wasn't there to tell them, You'll
6 do this or that; I was just there to enable them to do what they were
7 duty-bound to do. I pointed out some problems that were very obvious and
8 just told them how to deal with them.
9 Q. But wouldn't you agree with me one of the primary functions or
10 one of the primary duties of the police in a municipality is to ensure
11 public peace and order and protect the lives of the citizens; right?
12 A. Yes, that is why I nominated Petar Djokic for the position of
13 commander of the police station, because I knew that he was a police
14 officer who had graduated from a secondary police school in Sarajevo and
15 from a law school in Belgrade. I insisted and knew that the dispatcher
16 did not empower me to stay there and take up a position at the police
17 station but, rather, to give expert assistance. I nominated some
18 professionals to Mr. Veselic, and as you said law and order had it been
19 disrupted so it was necessary to stand up against crime and other
20 negative occurrences in the municipality.
21 Q. Had anyone at that time told you that Mr. Jelisic was looking and
22 acting like a policeman, wearing a uniform and telling people he was a
23 policeman? Did you know that at the time?
24 A. No, I did not know that.
25 Q. Have you never seen the photographs published of Mr. Jelisic in a
1 police uniform executing a man on the street in Brcko? Did you ever see
2 any of those photos that were internationally published?
3 A. Yes, I was able to see those. I can't deny that.
4 Q. Do you recall when you first saw them? What year?
5 A. At sometime after the war I saw the pictures in the media. It
6 may have been media that are published in the Federation of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I suppose that's where I saw them.
8 Q. Did you give the newly-appointed commander Mr. Djokic any advice
9 or suggestions on what he might do to deal with this serious public peace
10 problem named Mr. Jelisic?
11 A. It's probably a mistaken interpretation again; Mr. Djokic was not
12 the komandant but the commander of the police station.
13 But I'm sure that I told him in general terms that all criminal
14 activities of persons that were rampaging in Brcko must be -- must be --
15 we must put an end to them, to that. I told Mr. Djokic as much in the
16 preparatory meeting.
17 Q. You were a professional policeman. You told us earlier that you
18 were an operative by nature. These dozens or scores of murders done by
19 Mr. Jelisic, it all happened within the preceding three or four weeks
20 before you arrived. Did no one bring this to your attention in any more
21 detail than you've described so far?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, if Mr. Hannis can provide the reference
23 or the basis for the question that the murders happened between last
24 three or four weeks.
25 MR. HANNIS: Well, that would be in the judgement, Mr. Jelisic's
1 conviction here in this building, or the testimony of Mr. Gasi, or other
2 witnesses from Brcko that testified in this case. I don't have the page
3 cite at the moment, but I can indicate the sources.
4 Q. Do you remember my question, sir?
5 A. Yes, I do. But given my previous answer, I can repeat that I
6 still did not enjoy the trust of the executives there and couldn't speak
7 more concretely about that topic. And I must point out the following:
8 In spite of the good intentions of Mr. Djokic who was the commander of
9 the police station and undoubtedly at the time was the right man for the
10 position, and in my opinion he would have resolved many things in Brcko,
11 he was replaced following an attack on the police station because the
12 persons who had attacked the station demanded that he be replaced because
13 he was one of those who had fled the police station when the bridges were
14 blown up and did not return for a while.
15 So with all due respect, I cannot give -- cannot provide an
16 answer to your question that would satisfy you.
17 Q. No, if that's what you know, I'm satisfied with your answer.
18 Did any of these people, Mr. Ristanic or Mr. Veselic or
19 Mr. Gavrilovic or anybody you talked to during your first visit to Brcko,
20 tell you about the non-Serb civilians who were being detained down in the
21 warehouses in the area called Luka, down by the river just a short
22 distance from the police station? Did you know about that?
23 A. Even your previous question and this question here, in a reply to
24 both I can say that it would be logical to expect that the chief of the
25 crime enforcement service knows or has the most information. He should
1 have known much more than I who had just parachuted in, as it were.
2 There was a reception centre, as they called it at the time, for
3 Muslims, and I was told that the army controlled that centre. I didn't
4 have a chance to speak to the military authorities. Now, I don't want
5 you to think that I'm now defending myself, because there's no reason.
6 The only reason is the fact that I was going to stay in Brcko very
8 Q. But I'm not sure you answered my question. Did anyone tell you
9 about that, that non-Serb civilians were being kept in the warehouses in
10 Luka down by the river? Did you know about that at the time?
11 A. I don't know if I received adequate interpretation or whether my
12 answer was interpreted correctly, but I said that Mr. Gavrilovic informed
13 me of that case, that Muslims were being held in the harbour, that there
14 was this reception centre there, and that the army had control over that.
15 And I said that I didn't have an opportunity to speak to the military
16 authorities about that.
17 Q. And I take it that you never personally went down to Luka in
18 June 1992 when you were there on this first visit to Brcko?
19 A. No, not in June. And as far as I remember, not later on during
20 the war either.
21 Q. Did you hear about or did anybody among the people we've talked
22 about before mention to you another individual in Brcko who had committed
23 some murders of civilians, and this person was named Ranko Cesic? Did
24 you ever hear the name Ranko Cesic?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. Ranko Cesic at the beginning of the war was a member of the
2 Territorial Defence, but by a decision on the 15th of May, 1992, he
3 became a member of the reserve police of the MUP. And according to
4 witness Isak Gasi, who's testified here, he shot and killed two persons
5 down at Luka between the 1st and 6th of June. Did you not hear about
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm terribly sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt the
8 answer of the witness, I'm just unclear about which decision of the
9 15th of May, 1992, Mr. Hannis is talking about.
10 MR. HANNIS: It's not a document I have in evidence in this case.
11 It's a document that was part of the court file in the Ranko Cesic case.
12 It was a document submitted by Defence counsel in their brief --
13 MR. ZECEVIC: But with all due respect --
14 MR. HANNIS: It's a finding -- it's a finding by Judge Orie and
15 the Trial Chamber that Mr. Cesic was a member of the police from the
16 15th of May, 1992.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: But with all due respect, Mr. Hannis, isn't it a
18 fact that you had the opportunity to offer the adjudicated facts from the
19 other trials? If that adjudicated fact was not offered, I don't think
20 that you should be allowed to pursue this kind of questions and then and
21 actually making submissions in a court about the facts that we don't know
22 anything about.
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I'm entitled to ask any question of
24 this witness I want if I have a good-faith basis for asking the question
25 and it pertains to something relevant in this case. And it's my position
1 that this is something that this witness may or may not have known about
2 but it's certainly something that should have come to the attention of
3 the police, and I don't think that's a reason to bar me from asking the
4 question because we didn't offer it as an adjudicated fact.
5 JUDGE HALL: I would have thought, though, Mr. Hannis, that the
6 rationale behind the Rule permitting the reception of adjudicated facts
7 meant that if, as Mr. Zecevic has said, a fact on which you rely was not
8 so admitted, then the -- whereas you wouldn't be barred from asking the
9 question, that the -- you would have to, as a preliminary matter, find
10 out whether the witness accepts the premise on the basis of which you
11 frame the question. Is there any alternative approach?
12 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I guess I disagree with you. I
13 think I'm permitted to ask the question. I have to live with his answer.
14 And if his answer is he doesn't know or he disagrees or he says that's
15 not true, then I'm faced with the dilemma of, okay, that's what the
16 evidence is and I have to live with it, or I make an application to the
17 Court to either seek to call additional evidence or propose an
18 adjudicated fact, et cetera.
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes, but if you pose the question without laying a
20 foundation, aren't you caught by the Rule that your question assumes fact
21 not in evidence in this case?
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think we're entitled to ask questions
23 that may assume facts not in the case yet because when we start out on
24 day one, we have no facts in the case. And, I'm sorry, maybe I'm
25 misunderstanding your question, but I think it's entirely proper for me
1 to ask a question for which I have a foundation and good faith to believe
2 that there's support for and see what this witness knows about it.
3 You can't find that Ranko Cesic was a member of the police in
4 May 1992 based on my question, and I'm not asking you to do that at this
5 point. I would have to offer some further proof of it, but I'm entitled
6 to ask the witness the question.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, you may proceed.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Andan, do you recall my question?
11 A. I kindly ask you to repeat.
12 Q. Did you know or did you hear about Ranko Cesic, who was at the
13 time a member of the reserve police of the MUP, allegedly shot and killed
14 two persons down at Luka camp between the 1st and 6th of June? Did you
15 know about that or hear about it?
16 A. I didn't know that he was a reserve police member, nor did I find
17 out during my stay or did I ever come across that name. But I must tell
18 you something else. In one of my reports from Brcko, I wrote that we
19 must get rid of self-styled inspectors, investigators, commanders, and
20 such as soon as possible. That is, in other words, persons who had given
21 themselves titles by breaking into the police station in Brcko and taking
22 uniforms so that individuals put some rank insignia on these uniforms and
23 called themselves commanders and what have you. That's what I mentioned
24 in one of my reports to the MUP.
25 I did not see a list of the reserve police force nor was I
1 familiar with the name of Ranko Cesic. Actually, I think I only heard it
2 for the first time today from you.
3 Q. I guess you've partially answered that. As an inspector doing
4 one of these inspections, would it be in the normal course for you to
5 look at a list of the employees, both active duty and reserve, of the
6 station that you're inspecting, not only to see who's working there, but
7 how many? Is that something you normally do, and did you do that in this
9 A. Yes, that is usual practice. But I had a common list of the
10 reserve police members who were Serbs, Muslims or Bosniaks, and Croats.
11 I don't think that at the time there was an integrated list. I explained
12 how we screened these people, but at that moment I had no such list. It
13 is logical for a police inspector to take a look at the list of employees
14 and the list of the reserve force respectively.
15 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that when the curfew was established
16 that you had consulted with the military about that; correct? Is that
18 A. I had to reach some kind of agreement with them because otherwise
19 there would be an overlapping of jurisdiction.
20 Q. Okay. And do you recall who you dealt with from the military, by
21 rank and name?
22 A. I remember that the man's first name was Pavle but I for get his
23 last name. He was a lieutenant-colonel. And I remember major or captain
24 1st class or possibly Captain Sehovac. We went to the military command
25 on several occasions and spoke to them about the situation in the town of
2 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with any of them about the
3 so-called reception centre at Luka?
4 A. No, I didn't speak about that. I spoke about security,
5 establishing police structures at the station, and the authority that
6 originated from that.
7 Q. Okay. Let's leave Brcko for a bit and go to Bijeljina. At
8 page 21436 on Friday, you talked about the situation in Bijeljina and the
9 two paramilitary formations that were causing a lot of the problems, that
10 being Mauzer's Group. I think they were called the Panthers; is that
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Now, help me with this: I've heard references and seen in
14 documents references to a group called the Serb Volunteer Guard in
15 Bijeljina. Who were they?
16 A. Yes, there's mention of them, and I also made a note of that.
17 Those guys, those persons, were inhabitants of Bijeljina municipality.
18 They were led by Chetnik Vojvoda Blagojevic, but we didn't have as many
19 problems with that group as with the Panthers. It's a unit of the
20 Serb Radical Party which was led by Mirko Blagojevic, and all members of
21 that unit hailed from Bijeljina municipality.
22 Q. Now, we've heard evidence about Arkan's Men coming to Bijeljina
23 at the very beginning of April 1992. Were they ever referred to by any
24 term other than Arkan's Tigers or Arkan's Men? Were they ever referred
25 to as this Serb Guard or the Volunteer Guard, do you know?
1 A. I think that at that time they called themselves the
2 Serb Volunteer Guard. And I'm speaking about Arkan's forces that were
3 present in Bijeljina at the beginning of the war.
4 Q. And what was the relationship, if any, that you know about
5 between Mauzer's Group and Arkan's Men? Were they in competition with
6 each other, were they co-operating with each other? What do you know
7 about that?
8 A. I'll begin with a short introduction, so I hope you won't mind a
9 longer answer.
10 At that time the Bijeljina Police Station was exposed to strong
11 influence by Arkan's Group. Through operative work we learned that they
12 had unlawfully taken a large quantity of weapons, both long-barrelled and
13 short-barrelled weapons, that had been confiscated from Muslims. They
14 were registering these weapons at the Bijeljina Police Station without
15 anybody interfering. They were taking driving licences, traffic permits,
16 weapons permits from the police station, even blank forms for such
17 licences and permits.
18 I think that there was a link between the Serb Volunteer Guard
19 commanded by Arkan and the Panthers commanded by Ljubisa Savic, also
20 known as Mauzer. It was my conclusion that I drew from various
21 conversations and interviews that they were in direct communication.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit 1D549. It's a
24 Defence tab, 31 I believe.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: The usher please hand over to the witness the
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, which tab number?
4 MR. HANNIS:
5 Q. It's tab 31, I believe.
6 Do you recall seeing this one before, when you testified on
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page in both English and
10 B/C/S. All right. I think I need to see the last page. I apologise.
12 Q. When you spoke about this on Friday, you said, "We are stating
13 here we will continue the processing of these suspects and submit
14 criminal reports ..." I didn't see any place in the document where it
15 said you were going to submit criminal reports. Do you see that
16 anywhere, and if so, can you point it out to me?
17 A. Yes, I think that the last sentence says that. If you wish, I
18 will read it out to you. "The service will intensify its work on this
19 subject matter and will consistently enforce all the regulations issued
20 by the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina." This is information stating what had been done
22 previously. This went to the crime service, the crime service
23 interviewed the persons involved, collected the evidence, and, along with
24 a criminal report, handed all of this over to the Prosecutor's Office.
25 Q. Okay. I see that what you're referring to. I didn't know if
1 that was meant to include submitting criminal reports, as you stated.
2 I have a question. Some of the individuals that were arrested
3 here are identified as being members of what's translated in the English
4 copy as members of the National Guard or the Serb National Guard. Now,
5 is that the Territorial Defence or is that the Serb Volunteer Guard or is
6 this yet some third entity?
7 A. Perhaps the formulation in this document was not quite right, but
8 I'll explain it to you in the following way: These were members of the
9 Volunteer Guard of Mauzer, Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, that is, and I know
10 that after bringing these persons in, we also had some protestors in
11 front of the police station, Mr. Mauzer demonstrated force, and I know
12 that at some session in the Municipal Assembly the representatives of the
13 authorities were asked to disallow myself and Mr. Kljajic to stay in the
14 territory of Bijeljina. Mr. Mauzer asked for that. He said that we were
15 allegedly searching innocent Serb civilians and taking away their goods.
16 So these were members of the Serb Volunteer Guard or, rather, the
17 Panthers of Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer.
18 Q. Thank you for that.
19 You told us on Friday about when you and Mico Davidovic and
20 others had gone to the Mauzer's warehouse and found the three Muslim
21 brothers that were being kept there. Do you recall Judge Harhoff asked
22 you whether you had arrested Mauzer and you kind of laughed and gave an
23 explanation. I have one question: Did you ever call the military and
24 report to them about Mr. Mauzer, because, to the extent that he or his
25 unit may have been under the control of the army, it might have been a
1 matter for the military or the military police? Did you ever contact
2 them about doing something on their own or jointly with you about
3 Mr. Mauzer and his Panthers?
4 A. Yes, of course. I don't want to put myself in the forefront of
5 everything that was happening, but Mr. Mico Davidovic several times at
6 our meetings that were usually held in the evening hours at the command
7 of the Eastern Bosnia Corps that was in the territory of Obrijez, I think
8 that's the name of the place where they were stationed, well,
9 Mr. Davidovic asked Colonel Ilic several times that Mauzer's formation or
10 unit be placed under the control of the military.
11 We kept receiving promises that they would do that quickly, that
12 we should be patient a bit, and that they would come to the barracks. As
13 a matter of fact, we asked for them to be relocated. I think that they
14 were also staying at Obrijez, opposite the gasoline station that is on
15 the road to Ugljevik. We asked that they be relocated from there, from
16 that building, that is, that they be transferred to the Bijeljina
17 barracks, and by virtue of that, by transferring to the Bijeljina
18 barracks or any other barracks, they would be under the control of the
19 military. We received several promises to that effect; however, they
20 were not honoured all the way up to the end of the war.
21 So our mission was accomplished in Bijeljina in August, when
22 Mr. Davidovic was withdrawn to the federal SUP and when I was removed,
23 but Mauzer stayed on the very same unit with the same insignia all the
24 way up until the end of the war.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andan. You told us on Friday, at page 21445, in
1 answering Judge Harhoff's question, about that, that there was an
2 occasion where you actually had detained Mauzer briefly in custody and
3 then his unit set up outside the police station with tanks and weapons,
4 that there was sort of a stand off until the municipal authorities
5 arrived and spoke with Mr. Kljajic, Mr. Davidovic, and you. And you
6 said: "... found a Solomonic solution to release Mauzer."
7 Who were the municipal authorities who came and spoke with you
8 before this release took place? Do you remember the names, how many?
9 A. Yes, I remember a particular last name, again I don't know the
10 first name. It's a certain Mr. Micic. I don't know what his position
11 was in Bijeljina, but he did come to the police station and he talked to
12 Mr. Kljajic, Davidovic, and myself. And he told us what his views were
13 and also, most probably, well, yes, the opinion of the municipal
14 authorities in Bijeljina.
15 According to the rules, Mr. Mauzer was supposed to be handed over
16 to the office of the prosecutor along with a criminal report, and we
17 could have resolved the issue in that way; however, a joint solution was
18 found, I mean, in terms of the hierarchy involved, Mr. Kljajic and
19 Mr. Micic. We decided that Mauzer then be released from custody. If you
20 remember, I said then that we had taken away his fire-arms or, rather, a
21 Heckler Koch with a silencer. We did not return that to him on that
22 occasion. When I was removed, I returned that. I think that is
23 contained in the documentation. But Mr. Micic was the one who mediated
24 with regard to this release of Mauzer's.
25 Q. Okay. Was he the only one or was there anyone else from the
1 civilian authorities?
2 A. There was another man. I'm trying to remember his name. I know
3 he's a doctor, and right now I do not seem to be able to recall his last
4 name. He was a specialist, a psychiatrist. I think that the two of them
5 then came to the police station, Mr. Micic and this doctor. I think that
6 at the time his standing was pretty good in the top echelons of the SDS.
7 According to some unverified information, he was even a member of the
8 Main Board of the SDS. I'm referring to that doctor, but I cannot recall
9 right now. I can even remember his face, and I know what the man did,
10 but I simply cannot remember his last name.
11 It's Dr. Novakovic, I think. Dr. Novakovic.
12 Q. Thank you. And as you say, as far as you know, no criminal
13 charges were filed, no -- Prosecution had no conviction of Mr. Mauzer or
14 any of his Panthers for crimes committed in 1992; is that right?
15 A. At the time when we were there, I don't know -- well, please,
16 bear in mind that there were two possibilities. Filing a criminal report
17 or criminal charges, or sending a report to the prosecutor. That meant
18 that the prosecutor on the basis of our report could start an
19 investigation or redact all of this altogether. I do not rule out that
20 possibility that it was this milder form of a report being sent to the
21 prosecutor. But please don't take my word for any of this. I think that
22 what I have already told you is exactly as things happened at that point
23 in time, although we most sincerely, particularly both Mr. Davidovic and
24 I, were against that measure, that is to say, against releasing Mauzer
25 from custody.
1 Perhaps the wisest solution was found, perhaps the best
2 compromise would have been found, or, rather, if our option had been
3 opted for, then perhaps fire-arms would have been used and that would
4 have caused additional problems.
5 Q. But if there is no entry in the appropriate log-book from
6 Bijeljina about Mauzer or the Panthers, then that would mean no criminal
7 report was filed; right? Otherwise it would appear; there would be some
8 entry in the appropriate log-book. And I can't remember what the
9 abbreviation or the acronym is for that log-book. I think it's K
11 A. Did you have an opportunity to see that? I don't know. I
12 didn't. So I cannot tell you anything. But when mail was being sent
13 out, it had to be filed in a register and then it would -- and then it
14 would have to say that a criminal report under such and such a number was
15 sent to the prosecutor's office. I don't know. If you have those
16 records, then it's easy to establish whether a criminal report was filed
17 against Mauzer or not.
18 Q. But isn't it correct that at the police station there is a
19 log-book where criminal reports are logged, whether they're sent to the
20 prosecutor or not. If they're written in the police station, aren't they
21 entered in the log-book?
22 A. If a criminal report was written up, then it has to be sent to
23 the prosecutor. It cannot stay at the police station. Also in the
24 records of the prosecutor's office in Bijeljina, one could have checked
25 whether the police station had filed a criminal report against a
1 particular person. So there are two possibilities of checks: in police
2 records and the records of the prosecutor's office.
3 Q. And if there's no record in the prosecutor's office of having
4 received a criminal report about Mauzer and/or his men and there's no
5 record in the police department about a criminal report having been
6 written up about Mauzer and his men, would you then assume that no such
7 report was ever written?
8 A. If all of these records were accessible to you and if you
9 established these facts, then I cannot deny that.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, but again, Mr. Hannis, I would
11 appreciate if you can clarify. I thought so far that you were talking
12 about one Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer. And now your last question was Mauzer
13 and/or his men.
14 MR. HANNIS: I'm particularly interested in Mauzer.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Because we don't know; there might be a number of
16 Mauzer's men who are in the -- in these documents.
17 MR. HANNIS: I'm focused on Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, himself.
18 Q. Now, not only does it appear that he wasn't charged or
19 prosecuted, did you know that the Panthers guard unit from Bijeljina
20 received the order of Nemanjici at the ceremonial session of the
21 Republika Srpska National Assembly in January 1994? Did you hear about
23 Did you hear my question?
24 A. No, I didn't hear it. And I don't understand the question about
25 the Nemanjics. Are you talking about a Nemanjic street or some
1 declaration from the times of the Nemanjic Dynasty or something like
2 that? I don't know.
3 Q. I'm talking about the name of an award that was made by the
4 National Assembly, the Assembly of the Republika Srpska. The order of
5 Nemanjici is the name of the award, and it was given to the Panther unit
6 on the 9th of January, 1994. Did you hear about that, did you know about
8 A. No, I haven't heard of that.
9 Q. Did you know that Mr. Mauzer obtained a high position, Mr. Savic,
10 also known as Mauzer, obtained a very high position in the RS MUP? In
11 January 1998 I believe he was appointed head of the public security
12 branch of the RS MUP, when Mr. Dodik was president of the government and
13 Mrs. Plavsic was president of the RS. Did you know about that?
14 A. Excuse me, but then it couldn't have been 1992, as the
15 interpretation I received said.
16 Q. No, it's 1998. January 1998.
17 A. Yes, unfortunately, I did know. I'm saying again: Unfortunately,
18 yes, I did know that he was appointed assistant for police affairs and he
19 carried out these duties for a while. And after the killing of
20 Srdjan Knezevic, the head of the CSB in Pale, he carried out his own
22 I would like to point that out: his own investigation. Without
23 any kind of legal authority involved. And it was established beyond any
24 doubt that during this investigation he used all sorts of methods that
25 were strictly prohibited, including using 220 volt currents against
1 persons. Therefore, he had to be replaced due to pressure that came from
2 the public and all of these facts that were established beyond any doubt.
3 I think that because of all of this a criminal report was even filed
4 against Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, at the time.
5 MR. HANNIS: Okay. We're about to take the break, but before we
6 do, Your Honours, I would like to save time and give the witness two
7 documents to look over during the break, if he is willing to do that.
8 One is from tab 318, which is 65 ter 20145. It's not the entire
9 document. It's only the pages containing photographs of individuals.
10 And tab 308, 65 ter 01967, which is a newspaper interview with
11 Predrag Jesuric.
12 If I may, and could I indicate to the witness what I'd like him
13 to do. One is to read the interview of Mr. Jesuric, and the other is to
14 look through the photographs. And if he recognizes any of those
15 individuals, if he could put one of these red stickies on the page of
16 each person he recognizes. And with that I think it's time for the
18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Andan, did you understand Mr. Hannis's request?
19 Is there anything you would need him to clarify before we adjourn?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see, so you will be taking a
21 break and getting some rest and yet again I will have to ...
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Again, Your Honours, I'm wondering, how can the
23 witness answer the questions that are going to be based on the interview
24 of another person given to the press? I'm really wondering where --
25 JUDGE HALL: Don't anticipate, Mr. Zecevic. Let's deal with
1 the -- he would have the -- he would be able to review the documents, and
2 we see what the question is at the appropriate time.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, it was obvious to me what the intention was,
4 I'm sorry.
5 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MR. HANNIS:
11 Q. Mr. Andan, I'm sorry I made you work during the break. I promise
12 you that this afternoon and tonight while you're on a break I'll be
13 working. And the documents that you looked at, I'll come to those later,
14 so if you'll just keep them there with you until they come up.
15 We were talking -- go ahead.
16 A. Just one thing. I looked at the photos but the usher came and I
17 didn't have a chance to mark them. That's what I wanted to say. And I
18 read also the documents, but I made no markings on the photos.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. We can deal with that later.
20 You had mentioned about the occasion where you detained Mauzer.
21 I just wanted to confirm something I believe is correct. The police have
22 the authority to make an initial decision about detention of a suspect in
23 a criminal case for up to three days; is that correct? You don't need to
24 go to a judge to get that done; that's done on your own authority as a
25 policeman. Right?
1 A. Yes, I think so.
2 Q. At page 21456 on Friday, you told us about how you were trying to
3 deal with the problem of what I would call a bloated, b-l-o-a-t-e-d,
4 reserve police force and how you were going to try to reduce that number
5 down. And you described for us the operation that you did where you had
6 everyone called in and then ask who was willing to volunteer and go
7 defend the front line. I thought that was a very clever solution to a
8 difficult problem. But you said that the remainder of the reserve police
9 force, the ones who weren't immediately taken off to the army barracks,
10 you checked against the crime files. I just want to confirm what crime
11 files means in that context. Does that mean you checked to see if they
12 had any prior convictions or if they had outstanding unresolved criminal
13 cases or charges pending or all of that? Is that what you checked?
14 A. Yes. The individuals that remained in the reserve police force
15 were checked against our operative files as well as their criminal
16 records. I think there was a dispatch from the ministry that all
17 individuals against whom criminal proceedings were underway may not be
18 members of the reserve police force.
19 Q. And in your answer you said there were some people who had crime
20 files and, "we simply told them to go away." Is that correct, you just
21 told those upon whom you found criminal files to go away? You didn't
22 arrest them or detain them?
23 A. I think it's a misunderstanding. If somebody is registered as a
24 person with a prior conviction, it doesn't mean that that individual
25 should be arrested on the spot. It simply means that that particular
1 individual is registered as a person who had committed an offence.
2 Another thing: All those persons that we checked against our
3 operative files, of course we summoned them, and we forwarded the list of
4 such persons to the Secretariat for National Defence, and to them we said
5 that their war assignment from that point on was within the Secretariat
6 for National Defence of the Bijeljina municipality, so that's how we
7 dealt with the persons for whom we found that they were registered in our
8 operative registers. At the time, we did not find anybody who had
9 committed a crime and had to be processed. There were only persons who
10 had committed offences in earlier periods.
11 Q. Okay. I understand. Did you in the police then do anything to
12 physically remove them from your rolls, your list of members of the
13 reserve police, or did you have such a thing? Maybe I'm not
14 understanding how it worked. But wouldn't you have to do something to
15 indicate that, you know, Dragan Draganovic is removed from the reserve
16 police as of this date? Who did that, and where and how was that noted?
17 A. Of course. The list went to the Secretariat for National Defence
18 along with the explanation stating that in line with the current
19 legislation we did not have the duty to state the offences for which they
20 had been convicted. However, we did have the duty that according to the
21 then legislation we had to inform them that they were unfit to be members
22 of the reserve police forces and were thereby put at the disposal of the
23 Secretariat for National Defence. That's the memo that went to the
24 Secretariat for National Defence of the Bijeljina municipality.
25 Q. I understand that. I'm trying to find out if internally, within
1 the police department, the SJB at Bijeljina or the CSB at Bijeljina, or
2 wherever, were talking about a reserve police contingent. Is there not a
3 list written down somewhere inside the police station of the reserve
4 police, and if so, would this person's name be physically removed from
5 the list at the Bijeljina SJB when you notified the Secretariat of
6 National Defence about this person no longer being a member of the
7 reserve police? Do you follow me?
8 A. Yes, I follow you. I think that at the time in the police
9 administration there was a department in charge of the reserve police
10 forces. I don't know how many people worked in that department at the
11 time. So the same memo went also to the police administration, with the
12 same explanation that I already mentioned. And the police administration
13 could ask a more detailed explanation for us -- from us.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you.
15 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit 1D554. I believe
16 that was at Defence tab 57.
17 Q. I think that's at number 57 in your binder, Mr. Andan.
18 This is a memo with your typed name at the bottom. It's dated
19 the 20th of July, talking about the action in Brcko. And the
20 next-to-the-last paragraph makes reference to what in my English
21 translation says "the special unit of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of
22 BH intervened and the Chief of Staff, the president of the
23 Municipal Assembly, chairman of the Executive Committee, and others were
24 released." Specifically who were you referring to there? Was that
25 Mico Davidovic and his men, or was that Milenko Karisik, or somebody
1 else? The special unit referenced in that paragraph.
2 A. I believe I already answered this question. That was the unit of
3 Mico Davidovic to whom the unit of Dusko Malovic was re-subordinated.
4 Q. Well, why doesn't it say the federal SUP special unit, if you're
5 talking about Mico Davidovic?
6 A. Because they came to provide assistance to Republika Srpska.
7 They were re-subordinated to the Command of Republika Srpska, and we
8 treated it as a Republika Srpska unit, regardless of the fact that they
9 had originated from the federal MUP. So they were re-subordinated to the
10 Command of the Republika Srpska MUP.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Do you know, were they issued any RS MUP
12 identity cards during this phase of their presence in the RS, that is,
13 June and July, August of 1992?
14 A. I don't understand the question. Who was supposed to issue them
15 identity cards?
16 Q. No, my question was: Did Mico Davidovic and his men who came
17 from the federal SUP during the time that they were assisting in July and
18 August in the Bijeljina Brcko Zvornik area get some sort of RS MUP
19 identification to carry, or were they simply carrying their federal SUP
20 identifications, if you know?
21 A. As for personal documents of Mr. Davidovic, he had a Bijeljina ID
22 because that was his permanent residence. As for other IDs, I believe
23 that this unit had official IDs issued by the federal SUP. However, I
24 did not see them using those IDs anywhere. One more thing, they also had
25 had the accreditations issued by our MUP without a photograph. It was a
1 simple accreditation bearing number 1 or number 2 without any further
2 identifying data.
3 Q. Thank you for that. Here you're talking about the Red Berets.
4 Are these Red Berets associated with Captain Dragan whom we talked about
6 A. Yes. Yesterday you asked me whether I knew his name, and I
7 remembered; I think his name is Dragan Vasiljkovic. That is an
8 individual who had arrived from Australia in Serbia at the beginning of
9 war, and I think that after the war he returned to Australia and he is
10 currently being tried down there for some offences or maybe war crimes.
11 Anyway, those individuals were related to Dragan Vasiljkovic.
12 Q. And even though they had kidnapped the persons described here,
13 basically, they -- it was worked out that they agreed to lay down their
14 arms and leave the territory. Do you know, were all of these Red Berets
15 involved in this incident from Serbia or were some of them locals from
16 the RS?
17 A. As far as I can remember, all the members were from Serbia.
18 Maybe two or three of them were from Brcko or elsewhere, but I would say,
19 percentage-wise, that more than 90 per cent of them were from Serbia.
20 Q. And my question is: Why weren't any of them arrested and charged
21 with some sort of crime, rather than simply taking away their guns and
22 shipping them across the border?
23 A. I'm not quite sure whether you followed my earlier testimony. I
24 hope you did. There was an armed conflict. This armed conflict, which
25 included the kidnapping of the leadership of the Brcko municipality, as
1 well as Major Sehovac, could escalate into something far worse. And if
2 blood had been shed, that would have been the gravest possible outcome.
3 I think that our actions at the time were wise and correct. We
4 managed to find a middle ground. We sent the list of their names to the
5 Serbian MUP along with the request to ban their entry into
6 Republika Srpska. The leadership had to be released. Later on,
7 Major Sehovac had to be released as well, and we managed to neutralise
8 their presence by what we did.
9 We also had to consider a group that had defected with an
10 anti-aircraft cannon and some other weapons in the direction of Ugljevik.
11 In other words, there was a constant possibility for another attack with
12 far worse consequences. Had we brought them to the police station, we
13 would have been saddled with another problem, and that is the possibility
14 of an armed attack on the police station. So we had to balance all the
15 time between war, in this case war with them, and a solution that could
16 bring peace. We endeavoured to find a peaceful avenue towards a peaceful
17 outcome. It was our joint decision, that's what we did at the moment.
18 Of course, you have to bear in mind that it was war time, that at
19 some times you have to make decisions on your own. In peacetime, if I'm
20 not quite sure about a course of action, I would call up my superior or
21 undersecretary or the minister himself and I would consult them about
22 their opinion on the situation. But in this particular situation, it is
23 you or I who have to make a decision on our own. And even now after all
24 these years I maintain that we managed to find the best possible solution
25 for that situation.
1 Q. Okay. And don't think that I'm passing judgement on you. I was
2 not in your shoes or in your situation. I'm just inquiring.
3 And I want to know if after this happened did any of those Red
4 Berets or anyone on their behalf contact you or Mico Davidovic about what
5 had happened, to raise a complaint or make any kind of comment, if you
7 A. I'm not quite sure what you mean. After the action or much
9 Q. Any point in time. Immediately after or weeks or months later.
10 A. Except the negotiations that we had with them, I don't think that
11 Mico told me anything like that. Nobody spoke to me, that I can tell
12 you. Whether anybody spoke to Mr. Davidovic, I don't know, but I think
13 that Mico would have told me.
14 Q. Do you recall Mico telling you that Frenki Simatovic had
15 contacted him to complain about these Red Berets being kicked out?
16 A. Maybe. When Mico left the area of Semberija and Majevica, it is
17 possible that he met Mr. Simatovic up there in Belgrade, but he didn't
18 tell me anything about that.
19 Q. And you know who I mean when I'm referring to Frenki Simatovic
20 from -- he was from the MUP of Serbia; correct?
21 A. Yes, yes, I know him.
22 Q. Okay. Now, I do want to ask you about Dusko Malovic and his
23 unit. The first thing I'd like to ask you is, When did you first meet
24 him? Did you know him before the war?
25 A. I did not know Dusko Malovic before the war. I saw him for the
1 first time when he arrived in the police station in Bijeljina. I think
2 he was in Mr. Kljajic's office. Mr. Davidovic and I were invited to
3 introduce ourself to Mr. Malovic, and we were told the same thing that we
4 had said earlier, that we could not work on our own, that we needed
5 reinforcement. That's when Mr. Kljajic agreed with the minister of the
6 interior that we should receive reinforcements in Bijeljina, and that's
7 when we met Dusko Malovic. He arrived with a unit numbering 20 or
8 25 people, not more than 30, and that's when I met him for the first
10 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? Was that late
11 July 1992?
12 A. I said that I cannot remember dates; that's maybe one of my
13 problems. I assume it was in July 1992. But as for the date, I cannot
14 remember that. You shouldn't ask me about dates. I simply know that he
15 came there and I found him there.
16 Q. Okay. And do you recall if that was after the event we've been
17 talking about when the Red Berets were kicked out of Brcko? Was it after
18 that event?
19 A. We intervened in Brcko on two occasions, and I know for sure that
20 Dusko Malovic's unit took part in one of those actions. I know that he
21 was re-subordinated to us. So he was in Brcko at least once. I know
22 that for sure. But about the rest, I'm not quite sure.
23 Q. And during your time in the area of Bijeljina and Brcko, Zvornik
24 in June and July of 1992 up until the time you left in late August, how
25 much contact did you have with Malovic and his unit? I think you told us
1 about three actions that they participated in. Did you have occasion to
2 meet and get to recognise and know some of the members of his group?
3 A. There was no need for me to communicate with his people. Of
4 course, Mr. Malovic was present at the meeting when the action was
5 organised and later when it was carried out. At this briefing, we
6 instructed him what to do and how do to it. Mr. Davidovic, of course,
7 led the operation. And all the orders during operations went through
8 him. In other words, I met a few of his people, as I have already
9 stated, during the curfew, during night, when we went around Bijeljina
10 town and municipality checking whether people were observing the curfew.
11 I know some of the people, but there was no need for me to talk
12 to all of them. If a need arose, they had their immediate superior who
13 contacted us in the command and agreed -- and reached an agreement about
14 the tasks that should be carried out.
15 Q. During the break I asked you to look through some photos. Did
16 you recognise any of the people in those photos that you looked at?
17 A. Well, I did not have time to look at all of them. As I told you,
18 I wanted to mark some of them. Now I have a dilemma. My wife hails from
19 Sokolac. Some of the people on the photos I saw after the war in
20 Sokolac, and I think that I recognised among them some of the people who
21 were members of the unit. When it comes to those that were definitely
22 members of Dusko Malovic's unit, I will mark them. But now there are
23 some people that are familiar to me but I'm not quite sure whether they
24 were in the unit or not.
25 Q. Okay. I think maybe the best way to deal with it then, is I'll
1 ask you, sorry, once more during the break to work, and next time when we
2 take a break if you could take out the photos and mark the ones that
3 you're sure were members of Dusko Malovic's unit. And I'll work twice as
4 long tonight to make up for imposing this task on you. Is that
6 A. Sure. That's not a problem. But if you're planning on working
7 all night, I'm afraid you may not be able to come to work tomorrow.
8 Q. Well, we'll have to live with that risk. Thanks for your
10 Dusko Malovic's unit, what kind of uniforms were they wearing
11 when you saw them in July of 1992, do you recall?
12 A. Yes, that was actually their distinctive mark. They had some
13 specific uniforms that were not used by the police at the time. They
14 were greyish in colour. The shades were from dark grey through light
15 grey to white.
16 Q. In a camouflage pattern?
17 A. Yes, it was a camouflage pattern.
18 Q. Did you ever hear of this unit that -- you've told us already
19 that this unit sometimes were referred to as Mico Stanisic's men or I
20 think you also referred to them as Malovic unit, and we've seen in
21 payroll documents Special Platoon Sokolac. Did you ever hear them
22 referred to by any nickname that you recall?
23 A. I said that in Bijeljina they were called Mico's Specials. All
24 the natives of Bijeljina called them that because the entire unit or most
25 of them anyway were from the Sokolac municipality and that's where
1 Mr. Stanisic was born. We at the Bijeljina MUP called them Malovic's
2 unit or Malovic's men. I don't know of any other names or nicknames.
3 Q. Did you ever hear of them referred to as "snowflakes," I think
4 because of their uniforms?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And I don't know if you told us or not, they arrived in
7 Bijeljina, do you know where they had come from? Had they come from Pale
8 or somewhere else?
9 A. Well, it is logical for them to have come from Pale.
10 Q. Had they been sent by Mr. Stanisic; is that your understanding?
11 A. What I understood was that Mr. Cedo Kljajic, because we insisted
12 on getting reinforcements, sent a unit out to come to assist us.
13 Q. Was Cedo Kljajic already in Bijeljina?
14 A. Yes. I don't know if I said as much, but I came from Brcko
15 because Cedo Kljajic summoned me there. He was at the police station or
16 the CSB of Bijeljina at the time already.
17 Q. Do you remember Mr. Malovic ever telling you that Mico Stanisic
18 was the only person that he took orders from?
19 A. Well, how could he have said that? because he was taking orders
20 from us, too. We didn't go into operations in Bijeljina, Zvornik, and so
21 on and every time call Mico and ask him, Do tell Kljajic [as interpreted]
22 to do this or that. No. We -- they executed orders that we gave them.
23 Q. You mentioned --
24 Oh, I'm sorry.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, page 40, line 19, I believe he said --
1 [Microphone not activated]
2 Sorry, page 40, line 19: "Do tell --" and it's written here
3 "Kljajic." I think the witness said, "Do tell Malovic."
4 MR. HANNIS:
5 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Andan, is that what you said or meant to
7 A. I don't know the context. I don't speak English.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: It was recorded as - page 40, line 18:
9 "We didn't go into operations in Bijeljina, Zvornik, and so on
10 and every time call Mico and ask him, Do tell Kljajic to do this or that.
11 No. We -- they executed orders that we gave them."
12 And I think that the witness didn't say Kljajic but he said
13 Malovic. That is the only intervention that I have.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Having heard that, Mr. Andan, can you confirm if what Mr. Zecevic
16 said is correct?
17 A. Yes, Mr. Zecevic is right. He is right.
18 Q. All right, Mr. Andan, I think what I want to do is give you an
19 opportunity to mark some of those photos before I ask some further
20 questions on that. And let me move to something else.
21 At page 21466 on Friday, you were talking about the event where
22 you guys had detained Jovan Micic and some active-duty VRS personnel when
23 they had a truck-load of what turned out to be stolen household goods of
24 all kinds. I just want to confirm: So I understand that basically in
25 this situation, this time and this place, the police didn't have the
1 authority to arrest active-duty military personnel by law; is that
3 A. I think that there's a mistake in interpretation again. In the
4 first part of your question, at least that's how it was interpreted to
5 me, you said that he was an active-duty police officer, but he wasn't.
6 He was an officer, an active-duty military officer in the VRS, and he had
7 the rank of major.
8 And it is correct, we had an agreement with the representatives
9 of the military police of the East Bosnia Corps to detain such persons
10 until handing them over to the military police. We brought the
11 suspicious goods and persons to the police station and detained them
12 until hand-over to the military police.
13 Q. Okay. That seems to me a very practical solution. So in real
14 life it did happen sometimes that police were able to detain active-duty
15 army members suspected of being involved in a crime; right? This is just
16 one example.
17 A. Yes, you're right, although the commander of the
18 East Bosnia Corps also insisted, to put it that way, that we should carry
19 out all activities provided by the law in areas where there was no
20 military police presence with regard to such persons, because the
21 military police in such cases had to come from another place, and we were
22 expected to make a list of the goods and specify what the persons were
23 suspected of. And that's what we were able to do on such occasions.
24 Q. The commander of the East Bosnia Corps you referred to here, was
25 that Colonel Ilic?
1 A. Yes. At the time, it was Colonel Ilic. And a bit later, as far
2 as I know, he was replaced, possibly by General Simic. But while we were
3 there, I'm certain that it was Colonel Ilic.
4 Q. During the time you were in Bijeljina in the general area from
5 mid-June until the second half of August, can you tell us, was the
6 SJB Bijeljina located in the same building as the CSB or were they in
7 separate buildings?
8 A. The centre and the duty officers were on the ground floor, as
9 well as the legal department. Possibly some parts of these
10 organisational units were also on the first floor. But basically the
11 centre was located on the ground floor.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: The answer as recorded obviously doesn't make
13 sense, and it is precisely because it wasn't -- his answer was not
14 recorded properly. Now, I can say, but I don't know -- I think that it
15 is not such a big issue of dispute. The witness said that the police
16 station of Bijeljina occupied the ground floor and the parts of the first
17 floor, and the first floor and the second floor was occupied by the CSB.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Andan? It sounds like both the SJB and the
21 CSB were in the same building.
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And I think you told us before that when Malovic's unit was in
24 town they stayed in the attic of that building; right?
25 I'm sorry, did you answer?
1 A. No, not yet. But that's right. It's a modern building that was
2 opened before the war began. And in the attic there was a suite and two
3 rooms and there were also some offices. The offices were turned into
4 bedrooms and Mr. Malovic and his unit found accommodation there. And
5 Mr. Cedo Kljajic, with his driver, was on the same floor.
6 Q. Okay. I now want to go to a different topic, page
7 201472 and -473, you mentioned that there was a dilemma at that time
8 about which CSB Zvornik belonged to, whether it was Bijeljina or
9 Sarajevo. And you said that "in Bijeljina we believed Zvornik was ours."
10 And you mentioned that the minister sent a dispatch saying it belonged to
11 Sarajevo, "however, in spite of that we did plan to carry out a major
12 operation neutralising the Yellow Wasps in Zvornik."
13 Do you remember testifying to that on Friday?
14 A. Yes, Zvornik certainly was ours. But the contentious issue was
15 under which CSB it should be, Bijeljina or the Sarajevo-Romanija CSB, I
16 believe that's its name or that was its name. But we needed the
17 minister's approval for launching the operation. We were closer to
18 Zvornik, and the Bijeljina CSB was less far than the CSB of the
19 Sarajevo-Romanija region. As far as I remember, they were -- their
20 headquarters was in Lukavica, which is a neighbourhood of Sarajevo,
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit P336. It's tab
25 Q. You mentioned a dispatch from the minister about this issue.
1 Have a look at that and tell me if you think that's the dispatch you were
2 talking about.
3 A. Yes, I believe that this is the dispatch.
4 Q. Now, I see this one is dated the 16th of August, which would have
5 been a couple of weeks after your operation in Zvornik against the
6 Yellow Wasp, so I'm wondering, if the dispatch didn't come until then,
7 how can you say, In spite of that dispatch we went ahead and planned the
8 operation in Zvornik? Are you just getting the dates mixed up about when
9 this came out?
10 A. Well, dates are obviously my weakness. I have been repeating
11 that over and over.
12 It's coming to my mind now because there has been some reaction
13 from the CSB of Eastern Sarajevo or Serbian Sarajevo, as it was called,
14 because we were making some organisational changes. And the person in
15 charge in Sarajevo probably was wondering what we were doing, and we
16 replied that this was within our jurisdiction. And there was a
17 disagreement about that because a chief had to be appointed and that's
18 why this dispatch was sent out by the minister of the interior. But
19 obviously somebody else signed instead of him. And I apologise again for
20 the dates because it's likely that they will remain a problem while
21 you're dealing with me.
22 Q. Okay. If Zvornik had been considered to be under Sarajevo CSB
23 and you were planning to conduct this kind of operation, would it have
24 been standard procedure to consult or co-ordinate or inform, at least,
25 Mr. Zoran Cvijetic, head of the CSB in Sarajevo, because it involved
1 something technically under his domain, if you know?
2 A. The agreement about launching the action was reached in
3 Bijeljina. I know that Mr. Kljajic informed minister Stanisic of all its
4 details, and I know that without Mr. Stanisic's approval, who was
5 minister of the interior then, the use of the special unit of the MUP of
6 the RS commanded by Milenko Karisik would not have been possible.
7 I also know that certain forces of the VRS were used in the
8 course of this action. It was the military police or possibly the
9 protection regiment. I'm not sure. But Mico Davidovic or I could not
10 co-ordinate this with the other bodies. This was done by Mr. Kljajic as
11 undersecretary of public security, and it was his legal obligation to get
12 an approval from the minister of the interior both for the operation
13 itself and for the use of the special unit of the RS MUP commanded by
14 Mr. Milenko Karisik.
15 Q. Can I take it from that answer that neither -- that you, at
16 least, didn't have any conversation with Zoran Cvijetic about this
17 operation before it took place?
18 A. Neither with Zoran Cvijetic nor with the representatives of the
19 military or Mr. Karisik.
20 Q. Okay. Let me move to a different topic.
21 MR. HANNIS: If we could show the witness Exhibit 1D557, and I
22 think this is -- this is your diary, Mr. Andan. It's Defence tab 59. I
23 think that's in your binder. And I'd like to begin with page 1 of the
24 English, and I think it's page 5 -- or, I'm sorry, page 7 of the B/C/S
25 that I want.
1 Q. Mr. Andan, I don't know if you have a hard copy of it or not.
2 MR. HANNIS: Is that part of his binder?
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, it should be in his binder, tab 59.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know which page it
5 is. If it's the same that I see on the screen ...
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... it's page 4 in
8 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, it's the page that you see on the screen.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: The page has number 22 in the --
10 MR. HANNIS: -- upper left?
11 MR. ZECEVIC: -- upper left corner.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.
13 MR. HANNIS:
14 Q. The only question I have on this concerns to the writing in the
15 box. It's information provided by Jovo Mijatovic. Is this
16 Jovo Mijatovic the Jovo Mijatovic who was a -- from Zvornik and was a
17 member of the National Assembly of the RS, do you know?
18 A. I cannot remember now, but I seem to have added a note that he
19 works at Glinica. I'm not certain, but I think that he was an executive
20 at Glinica, maybe even the director.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, for clarity maybe the witness can read this
22 because I don't think that the English translation is appropriate of this
23 entry in his diary.
24 MR. HANNIS:
25 Q. Okay. Mr. Andan, can you read what it says inside that sort of
1 rectangle on the right side near the middle of the page, where we see the
2 name Mijatovic, Jovo.
3 A. "Information from Jovo Mijatovic, Glinica" -- probably works at
4 Glinica. According to my interpretation, some of the information or most
5 of the information about the facility where they were making an armoured
6 train and the other combat hardware was received from Jovo Mijatovic.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. HANNIS: Next I want to go to page 6 in the English. In
9 e-court I think it's B/C/S page 25.
10 Q. In your binder, Mr. Andan, it's the entry for the 25th of July,
11 and it has printed page numbers 44 and 45 at the top of the diary pages.
12 Did you find that one?
13 A. Yes, I found it.
14 Q. And there's a reference that says "Stevo Radic, a member of the
15 municipal authorities, recommended that he, Zuco, come." Do you know who
16 Stevo Radic was, was his job was in the municipality of Zvornik at that
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. Do you know who the source of this information was at the 25 July
21 A. Give me a second. I think that this is operational intelligence
22 that I entered in my diary, and I entered that Stevo Radic approved
23 Zuco's arrival to Bijeljina municipality, if I'm reading this correctly.
24 I think that's the way it was.
25 Q. You said Bijeljina, but I think you meant Zvornik.
1 A. Right, Zvornik. Right.
2 Q. Okay. If you could go -- we're on the same page in English, but
3 could you go to your pages 46 and 47. There's an entry that -- I think
4 it's near the bottom of 46, printed page number 46 in the upper left,
5 that says "Zuco's brother Repic is in Celopek. Killed 200 people. Cut
6 off ears and other body parts. 150 - 200 people." Wasn't that referring
7 to Muslims who had been detained in Celopek? Did you know that?
8 A. Yes. Yes, this is some intelligence that we had received from
9 operatives. It has to do with ethnic Muslims.
10 Q. And what operatives were the source of this information? Was
11 that civilians, was that state security, police, military, or do you
12 recall who the source was?
13 A. I do not recall the source, but I think that the service of
14 national security also had this information.
15 Q. That sounds like rather alarming news. Did it cause you to have
16 some sense of urgency to get this operation underway?
17 A. No, even without that, without this particular piece of
18 information, because this is just one of the many, this did not exert any
19 pressure on us. As we worked and as we collected information, we needed
20 as much information as we could get, and one particular information that
21 we had received was this. So within our overall activities we had this
22 kind of information available as well.
23 I remember that Mr. Davidovic particularly emphasised, before
24 carrying out this operation, that Repic was highly deranged. I think
25 that he also appointed a special team to deal with him. If I remember
1 correctly, there was a special building that the team entered. And to be
2 quite sincere, there were some orders to the effect that we respond if he
3 puts up armed assistance [as interpreted]. So all the legal requirements
4 have been met, so even if he had to be physically liquidated, we could do
5 it, or, rather, they could do it. Fortunately that was not done. He was
6 arrested, he was prosecuted, and handed over to the appropriate
7 prosecutor's office and further on.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. HANNIS: If we can go to page 7 of the English and page 29 in
10 e-court for the B/C/S.
11 Q. Mr. Andan, I think it's your pages 48 and 49, the printed numbers
12 on the diary. Do you find -- I hope I'm in the right place. Do you find
13 an entry that says "disarm and expel paramilitary formations; see with
14 Serbia about certain groups." Do you find that one? I think it's at the
15 bottom of the right-hand page, page 49 for you.
16 A. It says here:
17 "War profiteers document, disarm paramilitary formations, expel
18 and ask for individual groups, see with Serbia."
19 If I've read it correctly, is that what you mean?
20 Q. Yes, that's the one. Do you recall what you meant when you were
21 writing "see with Serbia"? Were you supposed to co-ordinate with Serbia
22 about expelling particular groups or particular individuals? What is
23 that about?
24 A. Obviously there was an ongoing problem in that area where we
25 were, namely the paramilitaries that were coming in from the territory of
1 Serbia. I think that it was necessary to go to the Ministry of the
2 Interior of Serbia with all the appropriate documentation, information,
3 that we had available at that point in time, requesting that at the
4 border crossing between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina they forbid or try
5 to forbid the crossing of the border by paramilitaries, of course
6 paramilitaries from Serbia into Bosnia. Naturally it was difficult to
7 carry that through because the border was open. They could only forbid
8 armed persons to enter the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 As for those who crossed the border in civilian clothing, they
10 could get both weapons and uniforms at certain locations. So it had to
11 do with that, to present this problem quite simply to the appropriate
12 organs of the MUP of Serbia and to ask for their assistance with regard
13 to further bans on the crossing of the border between Serbia and Bosnia
14 by paramilitaries.
15 MR. HANNIS: All right. If we could go -- stay on page 7 of the
16 English and --
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could I just put a question to the witness here.
18 MR. HANNIS: Sorry.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because the obvious possibility would have been
20 for the Republika Srpska authorities to arrest and prosecute these people
21 rather than trying to expel them and send them back to Serbia. Why
22 didn't you do that or why didn't the RS authorities just take them into
23 their own custody and handle them as they would have handled any other
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, we did deal with
1 individuals and groups, but if in legal and formal terms what you
2 referred to had been applied, then we would have needed lots and lots of
3 prisons in the territory of Republika Srpska. So what we tried to do at
4 that point in time was to hand such individuals over at the border to the
5 Serbian authorities. If they were to prosecute it in Republika Srpska,
6 we needed to have more prisons than barracks. And, quite simply, that
7 was a solution, to get rid of them in that way and to get them out of the
8 territory of Republika Srpska.
9 However, I am not denying that we did detain groups and
10 individuals and file criminal reports against them.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for this clarification. But could I,
12 then, ask you, What happened to the paramilitaries that you sent back to
13 Serbia? Was there any condition that they be detained and prosecuted in
14 Serbia, or did they just return over the border a few weeks later?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, with appropriate
16 documentation we handed that over at the Serbian border. It was up to
17 them as to what they would do with these individuals afterwards. But you
18 are quite right when you ask whether such persons returned. Some did,
19 individuals did, some extremists as a matter of fact, and then they would
20 bring along sometimes even those who had not been at the front line
21 before. So for a while this was going round and round in circles.
22 What we insisted upon was that they should be placed under the
23 Army of Republika Srpska if they were coming anyway, but they didn't want
24 to do that. And then, let me put it this way: Official state structures
25 did not tolerate that, but some municipal authorities exerted pressure
1 even against us, saying, These people are coming here to fight for their
2 own people and you are trying to get rid of them. That was Mr. Savic's
3 thesis as well, at an official meeting. And I really am pleased to be
4 able to read this for the very first time today, what the Prosecutor has
5 shown me just now. I see that it was Mr. Mauzer who basically held all
6 power in his hands in the municipality and that even Mr. Jesuric was
7 saying that he as chief of the centre was under Mauzer.
8 I remember when I left from Pale to carry out the supervisory
9 inspection we were not interested in politics; we were supposed to do
10 this job professionally. And it is with that frame of mind that I went
11 to Brcko and Bijeljina and everywhere else, because I did not want to
12 listen to political factors. I'm saying this on a personal note now; I
13 lived through all the things that I lived through and experienced
14 everything I experienced. The official position of the ministry was not
15 to allow politics to interfere in our own work, and I accepted that.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And of course we do respect the work and the
17 intensions that you had in doing -- in carrying out these inspections.
18 But still, my question would be: When you arrested and disarmed these
19 paramilitary groups and when you then sent them back to Serbia and handed
20 them over to the Serbian authorities at the border between Bosnia and
21 Serbia, did you hand over these detainees with any request that they be
22 prosecuted for the crimes that they had committed in Bosnia, prosecuted
23 by the Serbian authorities? Was that a condition for your passing them
24 back to the Serbian authorities?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that was a
1 request made, but it is certain that along with the list that we
2 compiled, we did include a brief description of the crimes they had
3 committed. So this brief description of the crimes they had committed
4 and their names were something that we handed over at the Serbian border.
5 There's another thing I would like to tell you. I hope I'm not
6 taking up too much time. From the existing documentation, you have seen
7 that we did prosecute Zuco and his group. Everything was done in
8 accordance with the law. It was handed over to the prosecutor's office.
9 Three, five, seven days after that, all of them were released. So it
10 wasn't the problem of the Ministry of the Interior any longer. The
11 ministry made every effort to work in accordance with the laws that were
12 in force. But you had another problem: The problem of the prosecutor,
13 the prosecutor's offices, the courts that didn't dare to bring that
14 process to an end or didn't have the capacity to do so. But I claim with
15 full responsibility that the Ministry of the Interior had carried out its
16 work in accordance with the law.
17 Now, whether that happened in each and every case or not, that
18 can be discussed, as we've already said. There were some individuals
19 that we sent to the border without having prosecuted them in
20 Republika Srpska, but there are others that we did. After all, there was
21 a war going on. We were not in the same kind of position as one is in
22 peacetime, to do things peacefully, in a cool-headed manner. It was like
23 a fast-moving film, and problems had to be dealt with all the time.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. Thank you very much.
25 MR. HANNIS: I note the time, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE HALL: So we take the break now, to resume in 20 minutes.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, while the witness is coming in,
6 Ms. Korner had asked me to make an oral application for an increase in
7 the word count, from the normal 3.000 to 3500 words for a motion applying
8 for admission of the MFI'd documents for Mr. Bjelosevic. We have to set
9 out the law and put in reasons applying for each particular document, and
10 we think we'll need the additional words. And that's my oral
11 application. I don't know what the Defence position is. But I'm
12 bringing it to your attention now.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we do not oppose. It is
14 obviously for the Trial Chamber to decide on that.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE HALL: Order as prayed.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Andan, I'd like to just follow up on an couple things that
20 were said during --
21 JUDGE HALL: I note the transcript -- ah, it now has it correct.
23 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
24 Q. I just wanted to follow up on a couple of things that were said
25 during your discussion with Judge Harhoff at the end of last session.
1 And at page 53, line 10, you mentioned that you would have a list of
2 names compiled and you would include a brief description of the crimes
3 they'd allegedly committed and that was handed over at the Serbian border
4 when these paramilitaries were kicked out.
5 Did you keep a copy of that information about the individuals and
6 the alleged crimes they might have committed, did you keep a copy of that
7 information as a record in your police stations somewhere so that if or
8 when any of these individuals returned and perhaps started doing similar
9 kinds of things, that maybe they could be prosecuted then, not only for
10 the new crimes they might have committed but for the ones that had led to
11 them being kicked out before?
12 A. Yes. In my own documentation, I actually had such a list
13 somewhere of the Red Berets that we had expelled from the area of Brcko.
14 I tried to find it; however, I moved three or four times and I seem to
15 have misplaced this somewhere. However, this documentation did remain at
16 the police station in the -- from the territory of which we expelled such
18 Q. And if -- if we were going to go look for that documentation now
19 in the police station, could you tell us where specifically we might find
20 it? Was there a particular kind of log-book it would be contained in?
21 Can you give us a description of the file or the archives area to search
22 if we wanted to find those particular kinds of documents?
23 A. Well, I cannot give you an answer now as to whether that can be
24 found and whether it exists, but it did exist at the police station or in
25 the crime service. Such a document did exist. Now, whether it exists to
1 this day, I don't know. But I told you that as a matter of fact I myself
2 had such a list somewhere. I've misplaced it and I wish I could have
3 found it and given it to the lawyer.
4 Q. I understand that you had a list, but you can see my point that
5 your personal list wouldn't have been much use in Bijeljina or Brcko or
6 Zvornik after mid-August 1992 because you had been removed from the
7 service and you weren't working as a policeman anymore. So if one of
8 these or more of these paramilitaries came back and started committing
9 new crimes, how would anybody in Bijeljina or Brcko or Zvornik know that
10 this was a repeat customer who maybe deserved to be prosecuted this
11 second time?
12 A. That is correct. I was removed. But as far as I know, soon
13 after that Mr. Stanisic was moved, too, and Mr. Kljajic left and some new
14 people arrived and had a different policy at the MUP. And I suggest that
15 you ask this question to Mr. Kovac, if you haven't already done so, who
16 was in charge of the MUP after Mr. Stanisic. I'm sure that such
17 documents were kept at the MUP with regard to the policy of running the
18 ministry. Certainly there was documentation available.
19 Q. All right. Thank you for that. I guess this is a follow-on, one
20 further follow-on, to Judge Harhoff's inquiries. It was a problem with
21 simply kicking these people out because as long as there was property to
22 be looted or plundered, some of them would and did come back; right?
23 If I can use a crude analogy: It's like in a cheap apartment;
24 you turn on the lights, the cockroaches run behind the refrigerator and
25 under the door, but when you leave, they come back again, as long as
1 there's something to eat. Is that a fair description in this situation?
2 A. Conditionally speaking, we were a disinfection team in that area.
3 At any rate, I agree that we were unable to remove all of them. We drove
4 them out, and some individuals never returned. But then new groups would
5 be formed. There would be these stories of heroism in the theatre of
6 war. And then people brought things back with them and then the
7 neighbours saw that and then thought to himself, Okay, I might as well
8 try to bring back something as well. We tried to switch off the lights
9 and kill all the roaches, but we haven't achieved our goal.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andan.
11 MR. HANNIS: Let's return to your diary and English page 7. I
12 think that's still on the screen. And for the B/C/S, it's page 31 in
13 e-court. I think that's your pages 50 -- well, something strange has
14 happened with the numbering. It's page 50 on the left-hand side, and the
15 right-hand side is page 91.
16 Q. And it's an entry -- there's an entry dated 31.7.92 on the
17 right-hand page, number 91. You find that?
18 A. I found it. 31 July 1992.
19 Q. Right above that, I want to ask you about the entry that in my
20 English translation says "Mico, introduction on the execution of
21 operation Zvornik."
22 Who is that referring to? Is that Mico Davidovic?
23 A. Yes, Mico Davidovic.
24 Q. And was this a meeting where the plan was discussed on how it was
25 going to be done and who was going to do which particular task?
1 A. Yes, it was one of the meetings at Mr. Cedo Kljajic's premises.
2 He was undersecretary of public security. And the introductory
3 presentation was made by Mico Davidovic at this meeting.
4 Q. Did Mico Davidovic do the introduction because he was partly
5 responsible for heading up the operation and making assignments, or was
6 it somebody else's job?
7 A. Mico did the introduction from his field of work, and the two of
8 us usually worked as a pair on the same kind of jobs. And I may have
9 added some remarks or comments. But as I have explained, I was sent to
10 Zvornik municipality with some operatives, where I collected information
11 about the composition and the numerical strength and so on of the unit
12 commanded by Vojin Vuckovic, also known as Zuco.
13 Q. Who gave you the task? We know one of your tasks was to actually
14 make the arrest of Zuco. Who assigned you that task?
15 A. It was something that crystallised during the action itself. We
16 completed the action, and there was no Zuco. So Mico Davidovic and I
17 quickly decided that I should take that responsibility and that I should
18 execute the arrest of Zuco. I have already described it.
19 Q. Yes, you have. And I'll come back to that in a minute.
20 I do want to ask you a question about your diary.
21 MR. HANNIS: If we could zoom out to have both pages of the
23 Q. We see the printed numbers in the diary. On the left-hand page
24 it says number 50; and on the right-hand it's at 91. Now, up to now we
25 see that the even number is usually on the left-hand page and the odd
1 number's on the right. Just looking at this, this looks like we're
2 missing about 40 pages between 51 and 90. Can you tell us if that's
3 correct and, if so, how those pages came to be missing and what they
4 might contain?
5 A. I cannot explain exactly what this is and whether anything is
6 missing here. As I told you, I handed over my diary to Mr. Gregorian on
7 his request. I never got it back. And I think that the logical course
8 of action would be to ask him what happened to my diary and my other
10 Q. Let me ask you this: Page 50 on the screen, there, seems to be
11 the end of a continuous entry regarding July 25th. So if that's the
12 case, then the days that would be missing would be between July 26 and
13 July 30. Do you recall writing 40 pages' worth of stuff on those four
15 A. I don't remember. Believe me, I don't think that I wrote that
16 much in such a short period of time. I made my notes on my knees, not in
17 an office. It was simply an aide-memoire. Normally when I would go
18 somewhere I would take this diary with me and then I would go into the
19 field. Normally my handwriting is much, much nicer than what you can see
20 here. I have to justify myself somehow. Look at this writing.
21 Q. I can understand that under the circumstances your writing
22 wouldn't be the prettiest.
23 MR. HANNIS: Let's go to page 11 of the English, and I think it's
24 page 57 in e-court for the B/C/S.
25 Q. And for you, Mr. Andan, in your hard copy it's pages, printed
1 numbers, 118 and 119. On the left there's an entry for 13.8.1992. 13
2 August. Find that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It's a reference to Ostoja Minic for chief of the crime service
5 in Zvornik. Did you know Mr. Minic before the Yellow Wasp operation?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember him being present as an inspector who
8 participated in doing some of the interviews of the detained Yellow Wasp?
9 A. I believe he imposed himself simply by being a very responsible
10 member of the crime service, and then my suggestion or our suggestion was
11 to appoint him for the chief of the crime service. I allow for the
12 possibility that there were some discussions between him and others, but
13 I think that he showed a high level of professionalism and that that's
14 the reason for his name appearing here. However, if he appeared now on
15 the door, I would not recognise him.
16 Q. When you say "our suggestion," did that mean you and
17 Mico Davidovic or somebody else made the suggestion or recommendation
18 that Minic get this job?
19 A. The two of us. We observed his behaviour and his work, so I'm
20 sure that it was the two of us who proposed him to be appointed to the
21 chief of crime service position.
22 Q. Am I correct that that didn't come through, he did not get that
23 position? Or do you know?
24 A. I don't know. We nominated him. It was then up to the SJB chief
25 to accept that or not accept it. Looking back now, I cannot tell you
1 whether he was appointed or not. If he was, then he would have received
2 a formal decision on his appointment. But I really don't know about
4 Q. And at that time on the 13th of August, do you know who was the
5 SJB chief who would have made the decision about appointing him?
6 A. I don't know the names. Maybe if I were to see some documents, I
7 could refresh my memory. I know that we suggested to Mr. Kljajic that
8 all the personnel, all the top personnel, in the public security station
9 should be replaced, chief and the commander and others, and as I
10 mentioned before, also the chief of legal affairs against whom they filed
11 a criminal report. I don't know exactly who was then appointed in the
12 end to that position.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. I think two more entries and then we'll be
14 done with your diary.
15 MR. HANNIS: The next one is page 12 in the English, page 59 in
16 e-court for the B/C/S.
17 Q. And for you, Mr. Andan, it's pages 120 and 121 in your hard copy.
18 And on the left-hand page there's an entry that says:
19 "The reserve police force - criminals in Zvornik. There are
20 still unresolved issues in Zvornik - Stevo Radic, former chief Marinko
21 and former police station commander Maric."
22 Can you tell us any further detail about what that was about and
23 what the situation was?
24 A. Well, obviously during our stay we received information about
25 problems with the reserve police force. The same problem existed in
1 Brcko. And here in Zvornik, we simply wrote down that in the following
2 phase the reserve police force should be combed, so to put it, so that
3 appropriate checks are made for the whole reserve police force.
4 The unresolved issues were issues of the chief and the commander,
5 Stevo Radic, for instance. I assume that Mr. Kljajic had not received
6 appropriate approvals for them to be replaced at that moment, but what I
7 do know is that they were replaced later on. So maybe at this point of
8 time he was in some sort of consultations with Mr. Stanisic. Later on we
9 received the approval to replace them and to appoint other individuals to
10 these positions.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. HANNIS: And the last one, page 14 of the English, and
13 page 71 in e-court in the B/C/S.
14 Q. Pages 132 and 133 in the hard copy for you, Mr. Andan. And the
15 right-hand page in e-court of the B/C/S is what I want to ask about.
16 There's something here that appears to be in handwriting other than
17 yours, and my English translation says it says:
18 "Boss. Pursuant to an agreement with your director Rajko Dukic,
19 please give this unit 500 litres of petrol and oil each, and fill up
20 their combat vehicles. Minister of the Interior of the Serbian Republic,
21 Mico Stanisic."
22 What can you tell us about that note in your diary?
23 A. I was present at the meeting in Belgrade with Mr. Stanisic. It
24 related to my departure for the Foca area. At that meeting the problem
25 of fuel was highlighted, and that is when Mr. Stanisic wrote this into my
1 diary. I was supposed to show this to the manager of the gas station in
2 Zvornik. That would be a way for me to receive that fuel and enable this
3 fuel to be given over to people who were dealing with the vehicles,
4 combat vehicles, in question. And this is the signature of Mr. Stanisic.
5 Q. And I take it this was in conjunction with the planned operation
6 in Foca that Mr. Stanisic wanted you to go on; right?
7 A. Yes. He wanted me to lead that operation. I already stated
8 other people who were supposed to go to Foca together with me, and I also
9 mentioned the dispatches sent to the Serbian MUP and the Montenegrin MUP.
10 As I said, we did not receive approval from the Serbian MUP to cross
11 their territory. We didn't have combat vehicles. We didn't have any
12 policemen with long barrels. I would not entirely exclude the
13 possibility that we had some hand-held rocket-launchers.
14 So we had some of the dry food and some of the equipment that we
15 were supposed to take with us. Mr. Stanisic spoke to me and because of
16 the problems that had accumulated in Foca, he told me that I should take
17 this into my own hands and that they had agreed with Cedo Kljajic that
18 something should have been done about it. The problem of fuel was a
19 problem that was very much present in Republika Srpska. This is an
20 attempt of Mr. Stanisic to ensure fuel for us so that we could travel to
22 Q. So this was written in your diary on the 18th of August when you
23 were at that meeting at Bosanska Vila in Belgrade with Mr. Stanisic; is
24 that right?
25 A. I think so.
1 Q. Was anybody else present at that meeting or was it just the two
2 of you?
3 A. As far as I can remember, I was on my own. Cedo Kljajic sent me
4 to Belgrade alone.
5 Q. Do you remember now what day you were actually supposed to set
6 out for Foca? Was it the next day or a week later? What do you
8 A. I already stated that I cannot remember the exact dates. I
9 assume that we were supposed to depart during the next few days. We had
10 to establish the unit first, because the unit of Mico Davidovic had been
11 returned to the federal SUP. So from the existing complement of police
12 forces in Bijeljina, I was supposed to establish a unit. I think I
13 already had the core of the unit. And with the additional manpower, I
14 was supposed to depart for Foca within a week or so. But you have to
15 excuse me, I'm not very good with dates.
16 Q. All right. We may return to that a little further on just for a
17 couple of items. But let me go back now with just one or two questions
18 about the paramilitaries being removed. You told us, I think, that the
19 first time in Brcko, that you said 90-some per cent of those were Serbs
20 from Serbia who were kicked out, but you said two or three of them were
21 probably locals from Brcko. Were the locals kicked out to Serbia or were
22 they simply released? because it doesn't appear that they were prosecuted
23 locally either. What happened to them?
24 A. I don't know precisely. I think that that part of the fugitive
25 group that went towards Ugljevik, I think that they were mostly from
1 Republika Srpska. I don't know whether later on there was a search made
2 to find those individuals. I can only tell you that those people that we
3 arrested and disarmed, we sent them to Serbia. Others allegedly went
4 towards Ugljevik. And whether they went on to some other theatre of war,
5 I wouldn't know. And I also don't know whether there was any operative
6 work later on to try to find them. I simply don't know.
7 MR. HANNIS: Can we show the witness Exhibit P591 -- [Microphone
8 not activated]. I'm sorry.
9 Can we show the witness Exhibit P591. It's tab 143 in the
10 Prosecution list.
11 Q. Mr. Andan, I don't know if you will have seen this document
12 before or not. It's dated the 28th of July, 1992. It comes from
13 General -- or I guess at the time Colonel Tolimir in the VRS, and it's a
14 report on paramilitary formations in the territory of the RS. Do you
15 recall ever seeing that document before?
16 A. No, I haven't seen it.
17 Q. Okay. Then I'm going to pass on that for now.
18 At page 21488 on Monday, you told to Mr. Zecevic that you were
19 trying to underline the responsibility of all those who had committed a
20 crime had to be identified, that had to be established, and they needed
21 to be removed as soon as possible, not just kicking paramilitaries out
22 but also if there were police who had engaged in criminal conduct, that
23 they needed to be removed from the police force. It seems what you've
24 been testifying to, that you and Mico Davidovic were working hard at
25 trying to deal with that issue, but to your knowledge were similar
1 efforts being made elsewhere in Republika Srpska with as much, if I may
2 say, as much eagerness and efficiency as displayed by you and
3 Mr. Davidovic in Bijeljina and Brcko and Zvornik? Did you hear about
4 anybody else doing the same kind of work you were doing?
5 A. I don't know to what degree this happened. I know that there
6 were two dispatches orders. One was signed by Dobrivoje Planojevic and
7 another by Minister Stanisic. So it meant that they had the force of
8 order. And all the officers were ordered to work in the same way that we
9 worked in Bijeljina. So the top of the pyramid observed the existence of
10 problems in public security centres. Now, how much did the security
11 services from Trebinje to Prijedor do about it, I don't know. But I do
12 know that the dispatches were sent to everybody.
13 Q. Okay. At page 21493, you told us that after the Yellow Wasp
14 operation in Zvornik, that Mr. Stanisic came to town, you had a meeting
15 and -- you all had a meeting and discussion with him telling him about
16 what happened. You described how he was interested in certain colourful
17 details: At the end of this two-hour meeting, the minister said that
18 there were problems that other municipalities were facing which called
19 for such units as those that had performed in Zvornik and that perhaps we
20 could quite specifically be in the focus, and perhaps we would have to
21 count on that, dealing with paramilitaries and criminals not only locally
22 but throughout the republic.
23 Did I understand your answer to mean that you felt like
24 Mr. Stanisic was telling you that you and Davidovic might be involved in
25 doing more of this same kind of thing in other places in the RS?
1 A. Yes. Specifically that is true for me. You have to bear in mind
2 that the period that Mr. Davidovic spent there was a limited period. He
3 could have been withdrawn on the 13th of August or he could have stayed
4 until the new year, so I think that the words of Mr. Stanisic pertain
5 more to me. I'm a soldier of the Republika Srpska MUP, and I consider
6 that if it was necessary to do it, and I think that his intention was
7 that I should do it, that it was I who should have taken on this task on
8 my shoulders and that I should be a sort of fireman who would go to
9 distinguish fires wherever it was necessary to do it.
10 Q. Or spray the insecticide or turn on the light or whatever was
11 needed; right? But that didn't happen, did it? You and Mico didn't get
12 an opportunity to do any more of that kind of work? First of all, he
13 got -- Mico was returned to Serbia, and you, shortly after, were removed
14 from the MUP; correct?
15 A. That's correct. Although there was a very concrete agreement. I
16 don't know what would have happened had the Serbian MUP allowed that we
17 cross their territory. And from Montenegro we received no reply at all.
18 And if we hadn't received the reply from the Serbian MUP, we would have
19 understood it to mean that we were free to go. And we would very
20 probably have gone towards Cajnic; however, we were not permitted to
21 cross that territory with long barrels. And after that you know what
22 happened to me. I was chased away from the MUP and I did not have any
23 opportunity to take part in similar activities.
24 Q. I think it's fair to say, or would you agree with me, that there
25 was a fairly significant back-lash against you and Mr. Davidovic coming
1 from certain elements of the Serb authorities because you had arrested
3 A. Listen, I wouldn't describe it this way, generally speaking, but
4 I do have to say that this situation arose in the territory of the
5 Bijeljina municipality mostly because of the reaction of
6 Mr. Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, to what we were doing there. Of course,
7 criminals also have their ethnicity, regardless of who they are. They
8 were Serbs but they were also criminals, so we arrested them and expelled
9 them. I think that the greatest opponent to the reintroduction of peace
10 and order was Mr. Mauzer.
11 Now that I've read the article that you gave me, I most
12 definitely think so. I think he was the one who influenced our stay in
13 the area of Semberija and Majevica, and especially my stay in that area.
14 In some of the documents, you could see that the efforts were made to
15 overcome the conflict that constantly hovered in the air between
16 Mr. Savic and the ministry, more precisely the security centre.
17 Once he sent the invitation to the ministry, inviting somebody to
18 attend the baptism of his unit, and in the office Mr. Cedo Kljajic said
19 that it would be best if some of the police members would attend this
20 baptism celebration. We agreed that Mr. Sinisa Karan, I, and somebody
21 else should go and attend this baptism. And even there, at this
22 celebration, there was something unpleasant for us. I reported about it,
23 and I think that Sinisa Karan also reported about it. In front of a full
24 hall, Mr. Mauzer highlighted me and Mico Davidovic, calling us communists
25 who came to the area of Semberija to prevent them from defending
1 themselves. So we found a way to leave the premises in order not to be
2 confronted with much greater problems.
3 Also on one other occasion when we went to the East Bosnia Corps
4 command, we were intercepted by part of Mauzer's armed force. We had to
5 flee through some side roads and also return through some side roads. I
6 think that documents were compiled about that, too, and that you can
7 still find them. The members of the Panthers went after us with an
8 anti-aircraft cannon, but it overturned and one of them was even killed
9 in that incident. In short, he was an absolute ruler of the Bijeljina
10 municipality at the time, so there was no political support for us.
11 Awhile later, I learned that before the war there were also
12 certain tensions between Mr. Davidovic and Mr. Savic. You have to bear
13 in mind that the two of them attended the same university in Sarajevo and
14 their friendship dates from that period. And I think that all this
15 contributed to my haste in a departure.
16 I'll be quite open. To this very day, I'm angry at Mr. Stanisic.
17 I never forgave him and I will not forgive him what he did to me. I did
18 not request him to return me to my job, I simply wanted to see him and I
19 requested that through his secretary, because at the time secretaries
20 were far more powerful than centre chiefs. I wanted to speak about the
21 problems and what happened. I looked for him in Belgrade, I looked for
22 him at Pale. He was never there. He was always in the field. And I
23 never had the opportunity to sit down to him and to speak to his face and
24 to tell him, Mr. Minister, or Mico, the situation is not what you've been
25 told. Mr. Kovac and other people told you something that is not true,
1 under influence and pressure from Mr. Mauzer and others.
2 I told you yesterday what I did. I told you that I did
3 everything to the highest professional level. So I'm going to repeat it
4 once again quite openly here in the courtroom: I never forgave
5 Mr. Stanisic that he never received me and the fact that he did not
6 listen to me. I wanted a formal, official commission by the MUP to be
7 established to find out what happened and what did not happen. I'm
8 telling you again very openly: I hope that some day I will have an
9 opportunity to sit down with Mr. Stanisic and to discuss some of those
11 Q. When you told us Mr. Stanisic was in Zvornik right after the
12 Yellow Wasp operation and you were in a two-hour meeting where he was
13 present, when was the next time after that that you saw him to speak with
14 him, after early August 1992? Do you remember?
15 A. This is about dates again, but I'll skip the date. You check it
16 in the documents. I said that Mr. Stanisic, while we were briefing him
17 on our work and everything that we did, that he announced to us that
18 there were similar or identical problems in other municipalities too.
19 And in a way this was an announcement that the issue of
20 paramilitarisation must be tackled elsewhere too.
21 I don't know whether it was three or five or seven days later
22 that Mr. Kljajic told me that Mr. Stanisic wanted to talk to me, and
23 that's, I think, when Kljajic told me for the first time, in a friendly
24 manner, Brother, you should establish a unit and go to Foca, but talk
25 about these details with the minister who's waiting for you at the
1 Bosanska Vila in Belgrade.
2 The period between the first and the second meeting is one that I
3 cannot accurately limit, because I'm bad when it comes to dates.
4 Q. I think you were shown the document that your meeting with
5 Mr. Stanisic at the Bosanska Vila in Belgrade took place on the
6 18th of August. If you accept that, can you tell me, when was the next
7 time you saw and spoke with Mico Stanisic after that meeting in Belgrade
8 when you talked about Foca? Did you see him or talk with him again in
10 A. No, sir. As I've just said, I was removed. And I tried to reach
11 the minister through his secretary. I first observed the procedure, the
12 procedure that was in place earlier, because you couldn't reach the
13 minister directly. You had to go through the chief of the
14 administration, and then he would check when the minister had time, and
15 so on, but I skipped all that. I called up his office immediately, but
16 he wasn't there. Leave a message, we'll get back to you; he is in the
17 field; he's in Belgrade; he's not in Belgrade. And that's how it went.
18 So I never met Stanisic again in 1992. I think that I didn't see
19 him again until 1994, when he invited me to the Kikinda facility at Pale
20 which I have mentioned already.
21 Q. You told us before about your meeting with Tomo Kovac where he
22 told you that you had served your purpose and that they didn't want you
23 anymore. Was that the only notice you got about your termination? Did
24 you not get any paperwork from anyone indicating that you were being
25 suspended or disciplined?
1 A. Yes, it is true that I spoke to Mr. Kovac, as I have already
2 described, and it is correct that I had done my job excellently. But I
3 don't need to repeat the rest.
4 He told me that I was suspended and that there was no need for me
5 to come to work anymore. Then I insisted, because I know how much
6 materiel was left behind in the gym. Those were items that were
7 confiscated and certificates issued for that, and there were 150 motor
8 cars that we confiscated and stored at the Radio Yugoslavia facility. I
9 wanted to conduct a hand-over and make a record of it, and I believe that
10 he accepted, and he initiated the setting up of a commission consisting
11 of three persons. So I handed all this over and I was told that I
12 needn't come to the MUP anymore and that I would be informed of any
13 subsequent measures or activities.
14 It is true, sir, that I never received a decision on my
15 suspension. And I never received a decision on the institution of
16 disciplinary proceedings. If you have anything to show to the contrary,
17 I would like to see it. But I maintain that what I said is true.
18 Q. Okay. Well, we'll return to that a little later on. I want to
19 ask you, What did Mr. Kovac tell you about the reason you were being
20 suspended? Did he mention the poker machine or did he just say that you
21 weren't needed anymore?
22 A. Well, I've described the scene, and it's engraved in my memory
23 for the rest of my life. He was surrounded by body-guards when I
24 approached him. And although he was my superior, I didn't address him as
25 Mr. Assistant or Comrade Assistant; I simply asked him, Tomo what is this
1 supposed to mean? He simply said, You did a professional job,
2 excellently, but we used you as a condom for -- as a disposable condom.
3 That's all that Mr. Kovac said to me. I apologise for the language, but
4 I simply quoted his words. And he didn't state any reasons.
5 Q. What was his position at that time, do you know?
6 A. I think that at the time he was assistant minister for the
8 And let me try to clarify one more thing for you and the
9 Trial Chamber. I wasn't necessary for Mr. Stanisic to suspend me or to
10 institute disciplinary proceedings against me. I never received a
11 decision in Bijeljina appointing me to the position of chief of the SJB
12 or the CSB. I always had the status of police inspector at the police
13 administration. I'll explain how it came about that I was treated as a
14 SJB chief or CSB chief, but let me say this first: He planted a
15 cuckoo's egg on Mr. Stanisic, like, have Mico bear the responsibility for
16 me. But, in fact, legally speaking, if a suspension should have been
17 imposed or disciplinary proceedings launched, it should have been him.
18 He should have been the one to do that.
19 And I owe you one more clarification about my appointments at the
20 CSB and the SJB. As you know, pursuant to a decision of the minister and
21 a dispatch, I arrived to Semberija and Majevica as an inspector, to
22 conduct audits and provide professional help and other assistance. When
23 I came to Bijeljina, the SJB was left without a chief, and we had coffee
24 together every morning, whenever it was possible, and discussed
25 work-related matters. I presented the problem to Mr. Kljajic. And I
1 said, Cedo, the SJB cannot operate without a chief. And a Solomonic
2 solution was found: All right, you do the work until we find somebody.
3 That's how it was done. When we appointed the SJB chief and when
4 that problem was solved, then we had the same kind of discussion again
5 and I -- Mijic Davidovic said to Mr. Kljajic, Do appoint Dragan chief, at
6 least temporarily; let him act as chief of the centre just as he acted as
7 chief of the SJB until we find a new chief.
8 So a decision of the minister was not required for my suspension
9 or for disciplinary proceedings against me. That was the duty of
10 Mr. Kovac as my superior at the police administration. I've already said
11 that he had pulled out of it insidiously and put the blame on the
12 minister. And then he said, Well, the -- it was the minister's orders.
13 I tried -- I have tried to explain all aspects of these events to
14 you. I may have used too many words in the process.
15 Q. Or for me not enough, because I'm still lacking some
16 understanding. You -- who had the authority to initiate disciplinary
17 proceedings against you? Was it Mr. Kovac because he was assistant
18 minister for police administration and you as an inspector were
19 subordinate to him? Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct. He was my superior officer. I never got
21 an official decision about any appointment to an executive position,
22 except for the position of police inspector. I was a member of the
23 police administration and my superior officer was Mr. Kovac.
24 Q. And the time that you were serving as acting head of CSB in
25 Bijeljina and head of SJB in Bijeljina, that was only on the oral say-so
1 of Cedo Kljajic, right, the undersecretary for public security?
2 A. I do not know if he requested approval from the minister, but
3 I've already described how it went. Do take over the job until we find
4 another solution. Yes, Mr. Undersecretary. I believe it was "Mr."
5 already; it was no longer comrade. And then I accepted it.
6 Q. Did you get any kind of pay raise for being acting chief?
7 Doesn't look like it.
8 A. Of course not. And I'm not sure that the salary I was getting at
9 the time was enough to pay for two boxes of cigarettes. It was
11 Q. Okay. So for all the hard work you did in Bijeljina and Brcko
12 and Zvornik in trying to clean up the paramilitaries and get those
13 stations running, your reward was you got suspended over a poker machine;
14 is that a short summary of what happened?
15 A. Yes, sir. And I would just like to add a remark; I would like to
16 have it on the record once more: I did not take that poker machine
17 without the approval of Undersecretary Cedo Kljajic, and the
18 Official Note that you have says that pursuant to the approval of the
19 undersecretary, the poker machine was taken from the storage. And I've
20 already explained why I took it. When I was removed from my position, I
21 also returned that poker machine. You never asked me about it, but I do
22 want to add that.
23 I and some five or six people who had come took some household
24 appliances from the storage to use in the houses that were allotted to
25 us. I also returned those household appliances that I had taken out of
1 the storage, and I even went to buy 5 kilograms of washing soap because
2 that was the quantity that I had taken out of our storage for my wife to
3 be able to do the laundry for me and our kids.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I just want to note that the page 75,
5 line 15, when it starts after "a short summary what happened," and then
6 "yes, sir" should be recorded as answer, and it was recorded as a
7 question of you, Mr. Hannis. Thank you.
8 MR. HANNIS: That's correct. And then the rest of it, following
9 "yes, sir" is a continuation of his answer. I agree.
10 Q. I know that's important to you, Mr. Andan, and perhaps tomorrow
11 before I finish I will return to ask you a couple of questions about it
12 or documents related to that, but I want to go back to the Yellow Wasp
13 operation for a moment.
14 You're generally aware of the information that was obtained as a
15 result of taking statements from all those Yellow Wasps who were arrested
16 and detained; is that right?
17 A. Yes. That requires clarification too. I've already said that we
18 didn't have enough professionals to process those individuals adequately.
19 Mr. Kljajic requested assistance from the minister to deploy some
20 professionals, and that's when Mr. Goran Macar arrived in Bijeljina, who
21 was chief of the crime police, and he was accompanied by half a dozen or
22 maybe as many as ten inspectors who processed those individuals.
23 I see that it isn't recorded anywhere, but the
24 National Security Service also got involved. And apart from the crime
25 aspect, the national security members from Zvornik interviewed Zuco and,
1 I think, one or two more persons, but I don't know what they were
2 interested in.
3 Q. Do you recall that some of the information that came out of these
4 interviews indicated that Malko Koroman had been stopped at the
5 check-point run by the Yellow Wasp at some point in time, I think
6 transporting some Golf vehicles, and that subsequent to that Zuco and
7 some of his men had gone to Pale and received weapons from the SJB in
8 Pale and met with Mrs. Plavsic or Minister Subotic? Did you know about
9 that information that came out?
10 A. There has been a slight interpretation mistake again. The name
11 is not "Marko" Koroman, it's "Malko" Koroman.
12 But yes, I do have some information. I believe that
13 Malko Koroman came to Zvornik from Pale with a very definite idea in his
14 mind, that he and his friends be returned some cars that Zuco had earlier
15 taken away at a check-point. As far as I remember the information, and
16 to the extent it was available to me, the agreement was that the vehicles
17 should be taken over and Zuco would get some quantity of weapons in
18 return. I don't believe that the weapons that he needed could be found
19 at the police station, so it had to go through a TO staff or it had to be
20 taken from a military unit. I know, based on the information that was
21 available to me then, that Zuco had set up contact with Ms. Plavsic, but,
22 frankly speaking, I do not remember Mr. Subotic.
23 Q. And did the information indicate that Zuco and his men had
24 received weapons in Pale through the auspices of Mr. Koroman?
25 A. They did get the weapons that he had requested, as far as I
2 Q. Do you know if Mr. Koroman was subject to any disciplinary or
3 criminal process related to this activity on his part?
4 A. I don't know because upon the completion of that operation, I
5 left the ministry. I've already described the circumstances, or maybe
6 we'll discuss it additionally, but that period to me is a black hole. I
7 would prefer forgetting all about it, but I seem unable to. I don't know
8 what happened to Malko Koroman later.
9 Q. I think you told us the other day, though, that you were aware
10 that the minister had attempted to remove Malko Koroman. And I want to
11 ask you, first of all, which minister are you referring to? Was that
12 Mico Stanisic that tried to remove him?
13 A. I have a request - I have digestive problems - I can answer this
14 question, but if I could be excused later on, I would be grateful.
15 Yes, I was referring to Mico Stanisic. I have already described
16 that. He issued an order, written or oral, to replace Mr. Koroman. When
17 the officials who were authorised to hand over that decision arrived at
18 the Pale SJB, armed people gathered. I stated the number of 3.000.
19 Well, that may be an exaggeration, but it was a large number of people.
20 And they didn't allow that. They even chased out those people from the
21 police station. They didn't allow Mr. Koroman to be removed.
22 Immediately after that, Mr. Karadzic also got involved. And
23 that's how Malko Koroman remained in his position.
24 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Let me stop you there and ask that we take
25 the break a minute or two early. And we'll resume tomorrow. Thank you.
1 JUDGE HALL: So we rise until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day
5 of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.