1 Friday, 3 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
9 everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution I'm
11 Tom Hannis with Gerry Dobbyn, Marina Vilova, and Indah Susanti.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
14 Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For obvious reasons
16 I'm Dragan Krgovic only appearing for Zupljanin Defence this morning.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And if there is nothing to divert our
18 attention, may the witness please be escorted to the stand.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Andan -- sorry, Mr. Andan. Good morning to you,
21 sir. I give you the usual reminder about your solemn declaration before
22 Mr. Hannis winds up.
23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR ANDAN [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
2 Q. Mr. Andan, did you have a chance overnight to have a look at the
3 interview called "The Sting of the Yellow Wasp" by Sasa Bizic?
4 MR. HANNIS: This is 65 ter 1447 from tab 313, Your Honours. If
5 we could have that up on the screen.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, good morning,
7 especially good morning to you, Mr. Prosecutor. I didn't say that you
8 say good morning to me, so I would like to use this opportunity to say
9 good morning to you. I did not read the article because I fell asleep at
10 6.00 last night. I woke up at 7.00 this morning so I read it this
11 morning. I hope it will not be a problem. It's not Sasa Bisic as you
12 put it, it's Sasa Bizic who is the author of this article.
13 MR. HANNIS:
14 Q. Good morning. And having had a chance to read it before coming
15 in this morning, are you satisfied that the contents are accurate?
16 A. First of all, I have to say that this article has never been
17 authorised. Even when it was published I had a few remarks about it. I
18 even wrote to the magazine reporter and I wanted to deny some of the
19 claims in the article but it was never published. So as I said, I read
20 the article this morning and I have certain comments on two or three
21 passages and corrections. As for the rest, I think that this is mostly
22 what I stated at the time of giving this interview.
23 Q. Well, I'll ask you about the corrections you want to make in a
24 moment, but I do want to point something out to you. You remember the
25 interview you had with OTP investigators in Banja Luka on the 12th of
1 October, 2006?
2 A. Yes, I remember that. I also requested them to check my
3 credibility with Ms. Del Ponte, and I wanted the interview to proceed
4 only then. Maybe you were informed about it. So there was a break, a
5 one-hour break and Ms. Del Ponte was supposed to be consulted to say
6 whether I can attend the interview or not because it was she who wrote
7 that I was part of a network of organised crime.
8 Q. Well, with regard to this "Sting of the Yellow Wasp," you were
9 shown the document by those investigators in October 2006, and do you
10 recall telling them that:
11 "I know this interview by heart and there's no need for me to
12 look at it."
13 Do you remember saying that back in 2006?
14 A. If that's what I stated, then it must be so. I had this text
15 before you managed to get it and before the investigators spoke to me in
16 2006. I have the original, not a photocopy, in my archives.
17 Q. And do you remember telling the investigators, Mr. Nazir [phoen]
18 and Mr. Jarma [phoen], that in terms of confirming the contents you said
19 it did reflect whatever you had said, and you said:
20 "I was given the opportunity to authorise the text."
21 That's right, isn't it? Didn't Sasa Bizic give you the
22 opportunity to check the text?
23 A. No, I think this is not true. Maybe those gentlemen didn't hear
24 it when I said it, but I said that the text had not been authorised.
25 However, generally speaking I agree with the text of the interview.
1 Q. Why don't you point out for us the particular places where you
2 have some disagreement or addition or correction to make. And if you
3 could tell us which page you are looking at, we could put that up on the
5 A. Second page, number 03650719. Yes, that's the page.
6 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us where on the page and what
7 paragraph you are referring to?
8 A. It's the very beginning of the text. I will try to quote where
9 it says:
10 "He did not spend a long time in the MUP of the RS. He was
11 replaced by a phone call of the first minister of the interior of the
12 recently established Republika Srpska Mico Stanisic on the 15th of
14 Mr. Prosecutor, I was not removed from my position by a telephone
15 call. I described to the Trial Chamber and to you the process of my
16 replacement. Also, I wasn't replaced on the 15th of August but sometime
17 on the 22nd, 23rd, until the 25th, and on the 28th I handed over my
19 Q. Okay. And I think from what you've told us it wasn't a phone
20 call from Mico Stanisic that did it, it was a personal conversation with
21 Tomo Kovac; is that right?
22 A. Yes, that's right. And if you would permit me, I'd like to
23 continue. Another correction has to be made here. The second part of
24 the text, the following paragraph:
25 "In early August 1992, the political leadership of the RS passed
1 a decision to disarm the MUP and to expel members of the Yellow Wasps
2 from Zvornik. The direct cause for the operation was the fact that
3 Velibor Ostojic had been stopped at a check-point ..." et cetera. If
4 necessary, I can read on.
5 Q. No, I see where you are at. Can you tell us what change you
6 would want to make there?
7 A. I would like to say here that I did not have any information, and
8 I also don't have any such information today, whether it was a decision
9 by the political leadership. Also, I did not say that the direct cause
10 was the fact that Velibor Ostojic had been stopped. I remember clearly
11 saying that, among others, Mr. Ostojic had been stopped and that he was
12 ordered to lie down and crawl on the ground. So that's my second
14 Q. Any more?
15 A. Another correction of a more formal nature, if I can put it that
16 way. The second part of the text on the right-hand side of the page, the
17 words "after he left the police Andan joined the VRS and in his war time
18 engagement, the surroundings of Mico Stanisic and Stanisic's heir on this
19 function," et cetera. I didn't say anything about Mr. Stanisic here. I
20 was talking about Mr. Kovac who had continued a propaganda against me,
21 and it actually continued up to this very day. As for the rest of this
22 text, I have no other comments.
23 Q. I would like to ask you one question. Again on page 2 and it's
24 near the bottom, I think the second paragraph up from the bottom of the
25 right-hand column, if we could scroll up for that. Yes. In my initial
1 translation it says:
2 "The same clique of Tomo Kovac and another man whom I would
3 describe as a powerful man from Sokolac."
4 I'd like to ask you who you are referring to there, and if for
5 any reason you think we need to go into private session, I would ask the
6 Court for us to go into private session and have you name the man.
7 A. No, I do not want to go to private session. There must be a
8 mistake in translation, Mr. Hannis. I was told paramilitaries from
9 Sokolac. No, it's not about any paramilitaries from Sokolac. What I
10 said here was a strong man from Sokolac, and I think it's a big
12 Q. The English I'm reading and I thought I said, it says "a powerful
13 man from Sokolac." Maybe it was lost in the translation between me and
14 you, but could you tell us the name of that person, and if you don't want
15 to do it in open session let me know, and we can go into private session.
16 A. No, there's no reason for private session. I will tell you, it's
17 Cicko Bjelica from Sokolac. I consider him a strong man, and let me say
18 one more thing: When we are finished with this testimony when I come
19 home, I'm immediately going to take a course of the English language so
20 that if I ever come again here, I would like to be able to speak to you
21 and to understand you when you speak in English.
22 Q. Well, I would welcome that. I've been trying to learn Serbian
23 without much success for several years, so if you can do that then we can
24 have some conversations. This person you just named, can you tell us who
25 he was or what position he held in 1992?
1 A. I don't know what he was doing in the Serbian Democratic Party.
2 I think he was a member of the SDS, and I think he was the president of
3 the SDS board for the town of Sokolac, and he was very powerful and very
4 influential in Sokolac. He was not the only one. There were other
5 people who were pulling strings behind the scenes so to speak.
6 Q. And just so we're sure we have the name correctly, could you
7 spell it for us, his first and last name?
8 A. I'll try. C-i-c-k-o, Cicko. B-j-e-l-i-c-a, Bjelica.
9 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Andan.
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I'd like to tender 65 ter 1447. This
11 is for purposes of credibility.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: If it's for the purposes of credibility, we do not
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And with that I have no more questions,
15 Mr. Andan, thank you.
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2350, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
19 Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andan.
21 A. Good morning, Mr. Zecevic.
22 Q. Mr. Andan, on page 21562, 31st of May, 2011, you spoke about
23 local structures in Bijeljina and on that page you said:
24 "The local structures led by Vajo Mandic."
25 There is a mark signifying the fact that the interpreters are not
1 sure that they heard the name correctly. I would like to ask you to
2 clarify this.
3 A. It's Vajo Andric. He was the secretary of the public defence
4 secretariat in Bijeljina at the time, if I remember well.
5 Q. Thank you. On the same day on page 21588, you were shown
6 document D643.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: P643.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I don't have the tab number because my mark fell off. I
10 apologise for this.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The Prosecutor is kindly requested to switch
12 off the microphone.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You remember that you looked at this document, information signed
15 by Branko Kesic dated the 13th of March, 1992. Mr. Hannis showed you
16 this document.
17 A. Yes, I remember.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's tab 260, Mr. Zecevic.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
20 Q. [Interpretation], on page 21588 and onwards you stated:
21 "I have to say it once again, I saw Cedo Kljajic that night in
22 the Ministry of the Interior. It's possible that he went out and met
23 some other people during the night at some point during the night, but as
24 far as Cedo is concerned, I can claim with some certainty that he was not
25 a member of the staff. I know that Momo Mandic was. And as for the
1 others, Kijac, Devedlaka, and others, I know nothing about that. As for
2 Cedo Kljajic, that night I was in the office and I saw him there. I can
3 confirm this."
4 Later on answering a question from Mr. Hannis you said:
5 "I saw him on several occasions, I think I saw him even in the
6 morning when we brought the fresh somuns from Bascarsija, I think he was
7 there and he had breakfast with us."
8 You remember that that is what you testified?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Sir, what does it mean in the police jargon when you are on a
11 duty shift, when you are a duty operative?
12 A. That's the person who has been tasked with gathering all the
13 informations coming in from the field and informing his superiors about
14 what he learned. And to also inform them whether there is a need for
15 them to come to the police station and react in a certain way to the
16 information gathered by the duty operative during the night or during the
17 day. In that case it would have to be a public holiday during the day,
18 or a Saturday or Sunday.
19 Q. Does that mean when somebody is on duty, that that person is
20 duty-bound to stay there all the time where he is discharging these
22 A. Absolutely. He may only go to the toilet and then he has to be
23 replaced by a junior duty officer.
24 Q. [Microphone not activated]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can we take a look at page 5 of this document.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just for the transcript, the tab number I
4 mentioned was wrong. It's tab 12 in the OTP binder.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is a document signed by Brano Kvesic
7 and somewhere towards the middle it says:
8 "In Crisis Staff of SDS, among others, the following persons were
10 And then various names are listed, Momcilo Mandic, Mico Stanisic,
11 and on number 5, Cedo Kljajic, and it also says what his duties were at
12 the time. And we see here in the brackets, "Contacts, duty officer."
13 You testified that Cedo Kljajic was in the building of the MUP of the
14 Socialist Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina during that night?
15 A. Yes, and I stand behind that. When I arrived during the night we
16 reported to Cedo Kljajic, among others. And when Mr. Teofuk Music and I
17 returned in the morning from Bascarsija, Cedo joined us and we all had
18 breakfast together.
19 Q. Therefore, if this document says that Cedo Kljajic was a duty
20 officer in the Crisis Staff of the SDS that night, is it true or not?
21 A. I think this is not true. I really don't know why somebody on
22 such a high position would be a duty officer in a staff. The rules that
23 we had were quite clear, people on important positions never discharge a
24 duty officer's duty. I sometimes was tasked and I did perform the duties
25 of duty officers during holidays, but not Cedo Kljajic, not a chief of
1 administration. I think that there were other persons on lower positions
2 who were able to do this job, that is to write down notes, collect
3 information from the field and other things. The first time that I
4 looked at this document, I wasn't really paying much attention at their
5 duties, and that's why I didn't see that it says here that Cedo Kljajic
6 was in charge of contacts and that he was supposed to be a duty officer.
7 Q. Mr. Andan, you will recall that on page 215978 and onwards there
8 was a discussion about information that you had in the police
9 administration, and the information that the state security service of
10 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had. You confirmed that in
11 accordance with the usual practice, sometimes the state security service
12 would share their information with the administration if they considered
13 that it was relevant for the administration. On such an occasion, the
14 employees of the police administration had to sign a document stating
15 that they were acquainted with this information. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes, I remember. It was our duty to sign this because if
17 something leaked out, then we had to conduct an investigation to find out
18 who from the public security leaked the information because there was a
19 wide-spread belief that people from the state security could not possibly
20 leak any information. You have to understand that when it comes to trust
21 and confidence, we were somewhat lower ranking than them and that's why
22 we had to sign the fact that we read some information.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could I remind the witness to speak slowly.
24 Thanks. The interpreters are having a hard time following you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Andan, situations in which at the police administration, that
3 is public security, state security would disclose such information to
4 public security, and this is a general question, was that information
5 which at that given moment was of interest to public security?
6 A. There were two types of information that we got from state
7 security. First, strictly confidential or state secret information which
8 could jeopardise the vital interests of the republic. In such cases we
9 forwarded modified information in which there -- in which the source was
10 not indicated but it was kept at a general level that this or that was
11 possible or likely and so on.
12 The second type of information that was given to us at the time
13 was such information that was of interest to public security when a joint
14 operation was likely in the coming period, or when they gave us
15 information to enable us to do something like that ourselves. Those were
16 the two types of information that the public security would receive from
17 state security.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Andan, since this document is about the
19 barricades set up in Sarajevo, was a decision reached that lawful force
20 should be used by the MUP of the Socialist Republic of BH to remove those
21 barricades? Would that job be done by public security or state security,
22 the removal of barricades?
23 A. Clearly it was public security who would have done that and the
24 minister if accordance with his powers was required to issue an order to
25 use the special unit of the MUP which was commanded by the minister. The
1 training and everything else that concerned the special unit was in the
2 remit of the police administration, but in a case like this the order for
3 the use of the special unit had to come from the minister. So to sum up,
4 this would have been done by public security.
5 Q. In that case in accordance with the usual manner of doing things,
6 would such information be forwarded to you by state security as the
7 second type that you mentioned?
8 A. Yes, absolutely. They couldn't have removed the barricades
9 physically themselves. They had to give this information to us so that
10 we could act at the appropriate time and remove the barricades.
11 Q. These persons listed in this document, would any proceedings be
12 launched against them under the Law on Internal Affairs of the Socialist
13 Republic of BiH? And when I say "proceedings," I mean disciplinary
15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if the question is "could," then I
16 don't have an objection, but "would" calls for speculation on the part of
17 this witness. He can say whether under the laws or rules proceedings
18 could be launched, but "would" depends on the person in charge making the
19 decisions and he can't know.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase.
21 Q. Sir, under the law and as far as you know -- as far as you are
22 familiar with the functioning of the police of the MUP of the Socialist
23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in such a case would disciplinary
24 proceedings necessarily be instituted against these persons?
25 A. Under the laws and regulations including the Law on Internal
1 Affairs under normal circumstances disciplinary proceedings would be
2 instituted and it was the minister who was required to do that. In my
3 opinion, the first step would be suspension and the second step would be
4 the disciplinary proceedings themselves.
5 Q. Do you know whether any of these persons listed here in this
6 document, and bearing in mind that Cedo Kljajic was your superior, do you
7 know that disciplinary proceeding were launched against any of these
8 persons because of this?
9 A. No disciplinary proceedings were initiated.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. Because after the barricades they came to work and I said that
12 Momcilo Mandic never concealed the fact that he had been on the
13 barricades, and once the city was full of roadblocks, they would come to
14 work as usual.
15 Q. Thank you. On page 21611 of the 31st of May, Mr. Hannis asked
17 "The main reason why I'm showing you this document is to help you
18 with the date because you said that you have a problem with dates. In
19 this dispatch dated 31 March, can this date help you to remember when
20 Bruno Stojic and the Croats left the MUP, I suppose it's the MUP of the
21 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Was that before or after this
22 dispatch, do you remember?"
23 And your answer is:
24 "I don't remember."
25 And then you go on to say that you remember how you got this
1 dispatch, and you go on to say:
2 "I would gladly answer the question about Mr. Stojic leaving
3 earlier or later, but I cannot remember, and I don't want to say anything
4 wrong. However, I cannot give you a precise answer. I only know that he
5 left and I've already spoken about that."
6 Do you remember this point of your testimony?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Tell me, Mr. Andan, during the examination-in-chief you were
9 explaining that incident when Bruno Stojic, Brano Kvesic and the other
10 executives who were Croats left the MUP of the Socialist Republic of BH
11 and went to Mostar. You said that on that occasion you and Bruno Stojic
12 kissed each other at the entrance?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. I exchanged kisses with Bruno Stojic and I
14 think Lidija Korac too, and I returned to the MUP building.
15 Q. Mr. Andan, since you returned to the MUP building, do you
16 remember that at that moment, when you entered the building after their
17 departure or thereabouts, do you remember if Cedo Kljajic, Momo Mandic,
18 Zepinic, or any other Serbian executives were still in the building?
19 A. Yes, they were in the building, and I think that Momo saw the
20 Croats out when they went to Mostar as the representative of the Serbian
22 Q. Thank you. On page 21614, in reply to Mr. Hannis's question
23 about your joining the MUP of the Serbian Republic, do you remember their
24 names and who those persons were? You replied:
25 "Yes, they were two friends of mine, Vlastimir Kusmuk, also known
1 as Vlasto, and the other was Slobodan Skipina who was an honest and
2 moderate man who told me that I should consider the wider picture and
3 join the Serbian people."
4 Do you remember?
5 A. Yes, I do, but I don't know whether it was recorded that
6 Vlastimir Kusmuk spoke in a soldier-like manner, and he said:
7 "If you are not thinking about yourself, think about your family.
8 Is everything all right with you, man? Can't you see what is happening
9 in Sarajevo?"
10 He -- Skipina was a very moderate man. He had been an executive
11 in state security for a long time and he tried to point out to me the
12 general context, the general -- the wider picture. But he knew that all
13 phone conversations were wire-tapped so he kept it short. All
14 conversations coming from Pale or Lukavica into Sarajevo.
15 Q. Mr. Andan, how did you understand these invitations of Mr. Kusmuk
16 and Mr. Skipina; did you understand that to be friendly advice or some
17 sort of pressure?
18 A. I have said that I received a phone call at night which was very
19 unpleasant, and I later found out that Mr. Dutina was the one who called
20 me. I don't know his real name. But these two calls I understood to be
21 friendly advice. Vlasta was a bit of a soldier, a bit harsh, so it was
22 easy to misinterpret him as giving orders, but, no, that was just his
23 way; whereas, Skipina was a well-mannered man who put things to me in
24 such a way. He wanted to open my eyes and add everything up that was
25 happening around me at the time. And, finally, they were mostly right
1 because I can tell based on the searches of my apartment, especially the
2 third one which was very brutal.
3 Q. Let us try to explain. The first phone call which came in at
4 night and you called it unpleasant, you said that later on you found out
5 that the call was made by Mr. Dutina. Was that an anonymous phone call
6 that night or did the man introduce himself to you?
7 A. No, he didn't introduce himself. Later when I joined the Serbian
8 side I found out that it was Mr. Dutina, and when the mortal remains of
9 the poet Ducic were transferred to Trebinje in 2002, I think, I was in
10 charge of security, and I met Mr. Dutina and I asked him directly why he
11 had done that. And then he smiled and said, a bit of pressure of that
12 kind was not out of place. That was his reply.
13 Q. Thank you. What is the ethnicity of your stepfather?
14 A. Yes, he is still alive and he is a Croat.
15 Q. I apologise, I was referring to 1992 and that's why the first
16 time around I asked my question in the past tense.
17 A. No, he didn't change ethnicity.
18 Q. Sorry, did you speak to your stepfather? Did you consult with
19 him before you left Sarajevo and what did he tell you about it?
20 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honours. I'm not sure how this
21 arises from my cross-examination.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the question was concerning the -- I
23 understood it as a pressure from some persons of Serbian ethnicity
24 telling Mr. Andan that he should leave and join the Serbian people. Now,
25 I'm just exploring this, why did he left at the very end.
1 MR. HANNIS: Well --
2 MR. ZECEVIC: What was the reason.
3 MR. HANNIS: Again, I don't see how that arises from anything I
4 asked on cross-examination. It certainly couldn't --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: The question was -- Mr. Hannis --
6 MR. HANNIS: [Overlapping speakers]
7 MR. ZECEVIC: The question was:
8 "And the others who were trying to encourage you to join, can you
9 recall by name and who any of those were?"
10 MR. HANNIS: That's right. And he gave us the names of
11 Mr. Kusmuk and Mr. Skipina.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct. I'm just expanding on that.
13 MR. HANNIS: But that's not something that arises from my
14 question or the answer. That's something that could have been asked on
16 JUDGE HALL: The -- the -- I don't see a problem with the
17 narrow -- with the narrow question. The witness may answer and then we
18 move on.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will gladly answer the question.
20 It was sometime at the end of April or the beginning of May. Our family
21 house is in Stup, 2 kilometres before Ilidza. I was sitting with my
22 stepfather under a cherry tree on a bench, and he told me that he could
23 see my dilemma, that he could see that I was thinking about what to do,
24 and he later wrote it in a letter that he sent to the Office of the High
25 Representative in Sarajevo. He told me literally that I should join the
1 Serbian people and share its fate. So he, a Croat, told me that I should
2 join the Serbs and share the fate of my people.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. On page 21618 you were discussing three incidents
5 when you went to the building of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina; in other words, when you visited the centre of
7 Sarajevo before you left. And you said that the third time, and I quote:
8 "I attempted to return the car belonging to my friend
9 Dragan Djurovic. And the car had been stolen or rather confiscated by
10 Jusuf," and then I see here "Razina," and the mark signifying the fact
11 that the interpreters did not hear it well.
12 And then you continued:
13 "It was a new car, a Peugeot. It had been parked in front of the
14 police club in Sarajevo. So this was a very unpleasant situation because
15 nobody among the few people that I knew wanted to speak to me."
16 As far as I can remember, you listed the people who were present,
17 and I would like to make the record clearer and that's why I want you to
18 repeat their names and also to say clearly who this Jusuf Razina as
19 recorded is?
20 A. It's Jusuf Prazina. He was the commander of paramilitary
21 formations in Sarajevo. And when I arrived at the police club to ask to
22 get back the car belonging to Mr. Djurovic, the persons I found there
23 were Asim Dautbasic. At the time he was chief of the state security of
24 the MUP which had already been divided. Then Dragan Vikic, the commander
25 of the special unit. And at one point Jusuf Prazina came to their office
1 on crutches. So I spoke to Mr. Dautbasic or I attempted to speak to him
2 as well as to Mr. Vikic, but they did not want to talk to me. And in the
3 end, and the duty policeman told me very politely, that I should leave
4 the premises of the police club.
5 Q. Mr. Andan, Mr. Asim Dautbasic and Mr. Dragan Vikic, did you know
6 them well?
7 A. Yes, I knew both of them, especially Dragan Vikic. While
8 Mr. Branko Pletikosa and I shared an office, Vikic was still a student of
9 the faculty for physical culture, and he used to hold courses in karate
10 that we attended. At the time he was the state champion of Yugoslavia in
11 karate. I and Branko Pletikosa proposed that Vikic should receive
12 tuition from the Ministry of the Interior, so when he graduated he was
13 employed in the Ministry of the Interior.
14 Mr. Asim Dautbasic worked in the state security sector. He was
15 the chief of the department for application of operative technical
16 methods. I would communicate with him mostly when I would receive a
17 letter from one of my sources abroad. Sometimes it would be written in a
18 secret ink and sometimes in various other ways. So with the help of
19 Mr. Dautbasic, I would use various chemicals which would then cause the
20 real text to appear so that we could gather the information that we
21 needed to gather, so yes I knew him very well.
22 Q. Were you hurt by the fact that they didn't want to speak to you?
23 A. Quite honestly, yes, very much, I was very hurt.
24 Q. On page 21650 on the 1st of June, 2011, you were asked about
25 Ranko Cesic and Brcko. You said:
1 "I did not know that he was a reserve policeman. I did not learn
2 that during my stay there. I didn't even hear that name, but I have to
3 say something else. In one of the reports I sent from Brcko, I wrote
4 that we had to deal with or remove all self-proclaimed inspectors,
5 investigators, commanders, and others as soon as possible. In other
6 words, people would confer ranks and titles on themselves. They broke
7 into the police station in Brcko. They took the uniforms. Some people
8 would then put on the uniforms, put on ranks on the uniforms, and then
9 they would call themselves commanders and similar things. That's what I
10 wrote in one of my reports sent to the MUP."
11 Mr. Andan, what did you learn when they broke into the police
12 station in Brcko, what did the members of the paramilitary formation take
13 away from the station? What did they steal?
14 MR. HANNIS: Objection. That doesn't correctly state his answer.
15 His answer was "persons who had given them self-titles by breaking into
16 the police station." It doesn't say "paramilitary," it just says
17 "persons." So we need some further question before we get to that.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It's my mistake.
19 Q. So the persons who entered the public security station in Brcko,
20 what did they take away or steal from the station?
21 A. Mr. Hannis is right, I did not say explicitly that they were
22 paramilitary formations. I said that they were individuals in groups.
23 It was probably in the period when the bridges were destroyed and when
24 the station was empty. They broke into the warehouse of the police
25 station. They took away uniforms and equipment. I mean, the things that
1 normally go together with uniforms such as belts and boots. But they
2 were primarily interested in the administrative department which means
3 traffic licences, driver's licences, passports.
4 They wanted to get the documents that they would later on use to
5 transfer the stolen vehicles to Serbia and sell them there. That's what
6 they were interested in.
7 Q. Do you have any idea how many uniforms and documents were stolen
8 from the station in Brcko?
9 A. I don't know, but I know that we decided to make an inventory of
10 the administrative department, if it was possible to do it at the time.
11 They had to know the number of the documents such as traffic licences,
12 driver's licences, and passports that were in stock, so to speak. And I
13 think a commission had been established to look into that matter. Of
14 course, we were mostly interested in whether any weapons were stolen from
15 the warehouse of the station. That's why we wanted them to establish
16 whether any weapons had been stolen, and I know that we were told that
17 they were not able to compare the lists and the numbers because when
18 Muslims had left the station, they took part of the weapons with them as
19 well as police equipment.
20 I already said that they took away registers and seals and stamps
21 as well as part of the traffic licences, driver's licences, and
23 Q. On page 21659 you spoke about the conflict that you had with
24 Ljubisa Savic Mauzer, and the Panthers in Bijeljina. You said:
25 "I assume that this was a compromise, possibly the best possible
1 compromise, because had we decided for the conflict with them weapons
2 would have been used and that would have created additional problems."
3 Mr. Andan, do you know how many people were in Mr. Mauzer's unit?
4 What was the strength of the unit led by Mr. Mauzer?
5 A. I think it was the strength of a brigade.
6 Q. When you say brigade, how many people are you talking about?
7 A. Well, you know, in peacetime you knew the exact manpower
8 belonging to a brigade; however, in this period it could have been
9 anything between 500 and 3.000. I would say that Mr. Mauzer had over
10 1.000 people at his disposal.
11 Q. You told us that Mr. Mauzer -- that you had information that
12 Mr. Mauzer intended to attack public security station in Bijeljina using
13 tanks. Do you know what else his unit had in their arsenal?
14 A. Not that he had intended. He actually brought the tanks around
15 the police stations. He also brought anti-aircraft cannon,
16 three-barrelled cannons, and of course in his unit he also had, I think,
17 it's something that had been used as an anti-aircraft weapon, so-called
18 Pragas. I wouldn't know the exact calibre, but I know that it's a very
19 destructive weapon. And among the infantry weapons -- of course one more
20 thing besides tanks, he also had self-propelled guns. He had mortars,
21 60 millimetres and 82 millimetres, and then among the infantry weapons he
22 had all the weapons that was at the disposal at the time. Hand-held
23 rocket-launcher, Zoljas, Tromblone, pistols, rifles, grenades.
24 Q. Objectively speaking, the weaponry at the disposal of this unit,
25 can you tell us what was the relation -- what was the proportion between
1 their weapons and the weapons at the disposal of you and your unit?
2 A. This would have been the conflict between David and Goliath but
3 you know, I was crazy, Davidovic was crazy, so we decided to go on with
4 the conflict with Mauzer until somebody gave up. Looking back from this
5 distance, I think that we could have been heavily defeated with many more
6 casualties than Mauzer, so I want to say it once again, I think that it
7 is very good that no weapons were used in the end.
8 Q. Sir, you said that you discussed Mauzer and his unit with the
9 commander of the East Bosnia Corps, and you said that the military kept
10 telling you that they were going to resolve the situation, that you
11 should be patient and avoid any conflicts, that they would resubordinate
12 the unit and make it part of the VRS. Do you know whether this unit was
13 actually re-subordinated to the VRS after some time? Do you know whether
14 it performed any tasks in the VRS as some sort of an elite unit?
15 A. As far as I know, the unit never left the facility where it was
16 billeted, and that's the Obrezje facility. They did get some tasks from
17 the military command and executed those tasks. However, they were never
18 fully re-subordinated. They did carry out orders received from the
19 military at a briefing or something when Mauzer would get an order to go
20 to a theatre of war, then he would go to that zone of responsibility and
21 wage war. But when he returned to his facility, the military did not
22 have full control over him.
23 Q. Thank you. On page 21676 you spoke about those members of the
24 military whom you detained overnight because you caught them in the act
25 of transporting stolen goods. You discussed that with Mr. Hannis. You
1 said that you detained them until handing them over to the military
2 police. Tell me, Mr. Andan, tell me something so that we may explain it
3 to the Trial Chamber and everybody else, what is the difference between
4 detaining a person and placing a person in remand prison?
5 A. Under the laws and regulations of the time, no written decision
6 was necessary. A person could be detained by placing him or her in the
7 police building; whereas, a remand prison - which could last up to 72
8 hours under the law - had to be covered by a decision.
9 I think I said to Mr. Hannis that during that same night we tried
10 to set up contact with the military police, but there was a war on,
11 communication lines were disrupted and persons were kept on police
12 premises until the early morning hours when until the military police
13 arrived and took them over, as well as all information that we had at
14 that time about the stolen goods found on their truck that night.
15 Q. Let us explain this by using an example. While patrolling, the
16 police observes a person in a state of heavy intoxication and drives an
17 automobile but hasn't committed a criminal offence. Does the police
18 detain such persons under the laws and regulations to sober up properly
20 A. Yes, that's what we did before the war and it is still done in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina today. It is called detention until sobriety.
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Andan, members of the military, under the laws
23 and regulations are they the responsibility of military bodies, in other
24 words, the military police?
25 A. Yes, I've already explained that there was this internal
1 agreement under which we could intervene in cases where there was no
2 military police presence, but we were duty-bound to inform them as soon
3 as we brought somebody in so that they could take over those persons. We
4 had the right to bring them in the police station, inform the military
5 police who would then take them over and process them.
6 Q. Very well. Mr. Andan, on page 21699 of 1 June this year,
7 replying to Mr. Hannis's question you say:
8 "Do you remember on which day you were supposed to go to Foca,
9 was it on the following day or in a week? What do you remember?"
10 And you say:
11 "I've already said that I cannot remember the exact date. I
12 suppose that we were to go there in the following days, but we first had
13 to raise a unit because Mico Davidovic's unit had already returned to the
14 federal SUP."
15 And then you say:
16 "You must excuse me, I'm not good at dates."
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document 1D557,
18 which is tab 59 of the Defence.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which tab was it?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 59. Page 35 in e-court. The page
21 number is 35 at the bottom of the page. 0605-4621.
22 MR. HANNIS: Can we have an English page reference.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No, the page in Serbian isn't right
24 either. 0605-4621. That's not the right page in Serbian. This is the
25 right page. We are interested in the right half. Thank you. Could we
1 now also get the English translation.
2 MR. HANNIS: I think it's page 14 of the English in e-court.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Hannis. Okay, yes.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, there is -- there's something circled, what
5 does it say and could you please comment?
6 A. It says "to Foca on Friday," and after the official agreement,
7 the order was, as we see here, for us to go to Foca on Friday.
8 Q. So we've established that the meeting with Minister Stanisic was
9 on the 18th of August; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. This entry "to Foca on Friday," does that refer to the first
12 Friday following the meeting or maybe another Friday?
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I think it would be helpful if we
14 could establish what date in the diary this entry refers to. I've gone
15 back just on my own looking at the English, and I think the date I see
16 preceding this is the 13th. That's on page 11 in the English. I don't
17 recall seeing any other date in between page 14 and page 15.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct. That is correct, there's no dates
19 between the entry 13 which is on page 29. That is exactly what I'm
20 trying to do, establish the date. We have evidence in some other
21 documents. I think it is not a contested issue that the meeting was held
22 on the 18th of August, but if you are -- if you are contesting that,
23 Mr. Hannis, please tell me so.
24 MR. HANNIS: I'm not contesting that the witness says he had a
25 meeting in Belgrade, Bosanska Vila with Mr. Stanisic on the 18th, but I
1 don't know how an entry on the 13th of August referring to going to Foca
2 on a Friday helps us. Do we have evidence about what day the 18th of
3 August was in 1992, what day of the week?
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I did check but I wouldn't like to give
5 evidence. You can check on the computer, it's very easy.
6 Q. Perhaps you can -- [Interpretation] Maybe you can answer this
7 question, Mr. Andan.
8 A. Friday clearly is the first Friday after the meeting with
9 Mr. Stanisic and after the preparations that were conducted at the Foca
10 SJB. I believe that you also have dispatches sent to the MUPs of Serbian
11 Montenegro, and based on those dispatches, if they are dated, you can
12 establish the date, or if we can go back to 1992 and see which date that
13 Friday may have been, that's not a problem either. But I say that this
14 is the first Friday after the meeting with Mr. Stanisic.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I note the time. I
17 have two more questions to ask to the witness so that would be about ten
18 minutes or so, not more. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: So we would take the break now. If the usher could
20 escort the witness out ahead of us there's a small matter with which the
21 Chamber would wish to deal before we rise, and it is directed to the
22 Prosecution. The Chamber has before it a motion in respect of the
23 accused Stanisic for provisional release and we are requiring the
24 Prosecution to respond by Friday of next week, if they intended to
1 MR. HANNIS: We do intend to respond, and thank you for that
2 notice, Your Honour.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE HALL: So we take the break for 20 minutes.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Can we have 1D567. It's Defence tab 214. 214, yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have this document.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I apologise. Take a look at the screen. Sir, this is a document
13 dated 19th of August. It was sent to the SJB in Zvornik and the
14 signature says "undersecretary of the public security station." You
15 already told us it's a mistake, it must be undersecretary of the public
16 security, Cedo Kljajic. And he orders here that for the needs of the
17 special unit on the 21st of August, 1992, a minibus and a driver need to
18 be sent. This document, does it have something to do with your departure
19 to Foca?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If I tell you that the 21st of August, 1992, was Friday, does it
22 refresh your memory?
23 A. So it coincides with the previous document. The entry in my
24 diary. So it must be the Friday, the 21st of August, 1992, that Friday.
25 Q. Thank you. Sir, on the 2nd of June, 2011, on page 21737 you
1 discussed an Official Note as well as on page 738. It's an Official Note
2 compiled by Bozidarka Dodik, a prosecutor in the BiH prosecutor's office.
3 It was compiled in December 2007. It's P2347.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have this document on the
5 screen, please.
6 Q. Mr. Andan, did you say to Bozidarka Dodik the prosecutor, that
7 one of the options that you heard about was that the murder of the
8 Sarajlic family was committed by the members of the unit commanded by
9 Dusko Malovic?
10 A. Yes. I said that it was one of the options and it was the most
11 frequently mentioned one.
12 Q. In paragraph 4 --
13 A. Can we have the next page. It's not on the first page.
14 Q. Yes, we do want the first page, fourth paragraph.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the first page again.
16 Q. In paragraph 4 we can read:
17 "He states that he heard about the murder of these families
18 around six months after the incident, and only by word of mouth. He
19 heard that the murders had been committed by the members of the Special
20 Police of the MUP of the RS under the command of Dusko Malovic."
21 Mr. Andan, is doesn't say here that it's merely one of the
22 options, so can you tell me what is the truth, what did you tell her?
23 Did you tell her that it is merely one of the options or that you heard
24 that the murder had been perpetrated by the members of this unit?
25 A. I claim that I said that it was merely one of the versions,
1 albeit the most frequently mentioned version.
2 Q. Mr. Andan, do you remember other alternative explanations of this
4 A. Some paramilitary formations were mentioned. It was said that it
5 was a murder for gain. Also some individuals from the area of Bijeljina
6 were mentioned, but right now I cannot remember anything about that. I
7 know that some paramilitary formations were mentioned. The paramilitary
8 formations that were in the area of Bijeljina at the time, and I know
9 that it was said that this was a murder for gain.
10 Q. On page 21738 and onwards, 21740, you state while commenting on
11 this Official Note, the one that we have now on the screens, the last
12 paragraph that we can see on the screens now:
13 "I stand behind this paragraph of the Official Note which says
14 that the members of the Serbian Radical Party spoke on the SIM Radio and
15 broadcast an announcement to the effect that the Sarajlic family had been
16 murdered. This was denied by the then Assistant Minister Tomo Kovac."
17 Do you remember that you stated this in your previous testimony?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Andan, do I understand you correctly, the announcement by the
20 Serbian Radical Party was broadcast on the SIM Radio in Bijeljina, and
21 they said that the Sarajlic family had been murdered and this
22 announcement by the Serbian Radical Party blames members of the Dusko
23 Malovic's unit for this crime?
24 A. No, Mr. Zecevic, I think I should clarify this. My wife was in
25 Bijeljina at the time. She told me that there was an announcement on the
1 SIM Radio in Bijeljina to the effect that the members of the Ministry of
2 the Interior, based on the information provided by the Serbian Radical
3 Party, executed the Sarajlic family. After that Mr. Kovac denied this
4 information that the Radical Party had provided to Pero Simic, or the
5 Serbian radio in Bijeljina.
6 Q. So Serbian Radical Party, if I understood you well, announced
7 that the members of the Ministry of the Interior were responsible for the
9 A. As far as I can remember, that's what my wife told me when we
10 spoke about this event.
11 Q. So if I understood you well, this was denied, and then after some
12 time or probably at the same time, the member commanded by Dusko Malovic
13 was branded as the alleged perpetrator of this crime, they were the
14 members of the MUP mentioned in the announcement by the Radical Party;
15 did I understand it well?
16 A. Mr. Zecevic, while I was the director of the police I initiated
17 the investigation about this case, and as far as I can remember we
18 obtained informations that I'm going to share with the Trial Chamber. We
19 learned that the family had been executed. I already stated that my wife
20 told me that one of the girls who were killed that night in Bijeljina
21 played with my younger son just a little while before it happened. So we
22 had two informations.
23 Q. When you say at the time, could you be more specific?
24 A. It's 2005.
25 MR. HANNIS: I am sorry, could we have some clarification of that
1 last answer. He talked about the family had been executed. The Official
2 Note and the case talks about three families.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you clarify this, Mr. Andan?
5 A. I said that the girl who played with my son belonged to one of
6 the families who had been murdered, so this girl belonged to one family;
7 however, I do not deny that more than one family had been murdered. I
8 want to emphasise that during our investigation, I don't know whether it
9 was continued later on or not, we learned that the families were murdered
10 in their houses during the night, then they were transported to the bank
11 of the Drina River, and then in the morning some of those people -
12 whether it was a member of the Serbian Radical Party or somebody else, I
13 wouldn't know - saw the corpses on the bank of the Drina River and
14 alerted everybody else.
15 Then in 2005 I couldn't speculate about perpetrators. We wanted
16 to open those issues and to resolve them. Whether it was Mr. Milosevic
17 or somebody else who informed the state prosecutor's office about this
18 investigation, I don't know, I left the ministry. But we obtained two
19 proofs, if I can call it like that, that the execution was carried out
20 during the night, and that during that same night the corpses were
21 transported to the bank of the river. And then one of the names
22 mentioned in regard to this was Mr. Malovic.
23 If I were to say anything more than this, I think it would be
24 counter-productive. If I knew anything about it, I would say it here now
25 immediately that I know it. I said something that is not contained in
1 the documents. I said something that is not contained in the note made
2 by Bozidarka, but this is what I know.
3 Q. Thank you. Just a few more questions before I finish. On page
4 21777 of yesterday's transcript, the 2nd of June, Mr. Hannis showed you a
5 document about the collegium held in September. He said that, under item
6 2, Danilo Vukovic was temporarily suspended because of inappropriate
7 conduct, et cetera, and then you offered to explain because you were
8 familiar with this issue. However, Mr. Hannis said no, not now, I'll
9 have to finish my examination, we'll get back to that later. But he did
10 not get back to that later and that's why I would like to ask you to
11 explain now what this was all about. If you prefer private session we
12 can move to private session?
13 A. No, no, no, there's no need for that. I'm smiling because this
14 whole situation is funny to me. Danilo Vukovic got drunk one night in a
15 cafe. He broke several glasses and several bottles. I think he did that
16 in a cafe owned by the Serbian Radical Party. In the morning it was
17 described as a huge incident. He did not attack any person. He merely
18 broke some glasses and bottles. He paid everything that he drank. I
19 don't know whether he paid for the glasses and the bottles, but there
20 were no other allegations that he did anything else or that he owed any
21 more money; however, he was replaced together with Dragan Andan because
22 it was considered that he was under my influence, and that's yet another
23 trap set by Mr. Tomo Kovac.
24 People can say whatever they want, but I know what happened and I
25 know how things developed later on. If I had to go, all right, but I
1 claim under full responsibility that apart from this incident -- and also
2 I have to tell you that in the regulations of service of the public
3 security service it used to state that whoever blemishes the dignity of
4 the public security employees, may be subject to disciplinary
5 proceedings. So Danilo Vukovic was subjected to disciplinary proceedings
6 because he blemished the standing of the employees of the public security
7 service while drunk, that's what happened.
8 Q. Mr. Andan, on page 21784 of your testimony yesterday you were
9 discussing the same topic and that is who was behind your replacement,
10 and about your conflict with Tomislav Kovac. After you and
11 Danilo Vukovic, who was appointed to the position of the chief of the
12 public security station in Bijeljina?
13 A. It was the godfather of Tomislav Kovac, Budisa Petko. He was the
14 one who was appointed to the same position after I was replaced.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Andan, I have no
16 more questions for you.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Andan, I would like to come back to the
19 whereabouts of Mr. Cedo Kljajic who was in Sarajevo in -- on the 1st of
20 March, 1992, in the time of the barricades, yes? You testified about
21 that. What was his position at that moment?
22 A. At that moment he was deputy chief of the police affairs
23 administration, so he was the deputy of Mr. Avdo Hebib.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And in May, June, and July I think it
25 was. Yeah, about that time. No, June, July, and August, about that
1 time, he was under secretary of public security; right?
2 A. Yes, you are right. I met him in Bijeljina, or rather, upon his
3 invitation I came to Brcko and found him at -- found him there in the
4 position of undersecretary of public security of the RS.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, Your Honours, it's just in the
6 transcript 35/2, I believe the witness says: "I came from Brcko and
7 found him in Bijeljina."
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is that what you said, Mr. Andan? You came from
9 Brcko and found him in Bijeljina?
10 A. Yes, it was upon his invitation that I came from Brcko to
11 Bijeljina and met him in Bijeljina.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Was Bijeljina at that time the seat of the
13 government? Was the seat of the government in Bijeljina?
14 A. No, he was the only high-ranking ministry member in Bijeljina at
15 the time. How he had come there and upon whose orders or request, I
16 don't know, but neither the ministry nor the rest of the government were
17 in Bijeljina.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: So let's say that his cabinet, if I may use that
19 word, was in Bijeljina?
20 A. Yes. If a secretary and a driver qualify as a cabinet, then, in
21 that case, yes, it was in Bijeljina.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Andan, your testimony is at an end. We thank
24 you for your assistance to the Tribunal. You are now released and we
25 wish you a safe journey back to your home.
1 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, Your Honours, just a reminder yesterday
3 Mr. Hannis requested -- and Your Honours requested a document from the
4 witness and perhaps he should be given the instructions how to deliver
5 that document.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you, Mr. Zecevic. The Court Officer
8 indicates that VWS has been informed so they would be in touch with him
9 in terms of the mechanics of getting the document back to us.
10 So we take the adjournment to reconvene in Courtroom III at 9.00
11 on Monday morning, and I trust everyone has a safe weekend.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.13 a.m.
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th of June 2011,
15 at 9.00 a.m.