Page 21832
1 Monday, 6 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we take the appearances today,
11 please.
12 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner and
13 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For
15 the Stanisic Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic, and
16 Eugene O'Sullivan.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic for
18 Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 Yes, Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before the witness comes in, and in
22 order to save argument at a later stage, can I raise one matter relating
23 to the evidence that I understand that he's going to give.
24 Your Honours may have seen in the 65 ter statement for this
25 witness -- first of all, I understand the length of examination-in-chief
Page 21833
1 has gone up, for which I believe the Defence need your leave, from eight
2 to ten hours. Second, according to the 65 ter summary, this witness is
3 going to provide a detailed account, and I emphasise the word "detailed,"
4 of the situation in the SJB Novo Sarajevo prior to April 1992 and the
5 attack on that SJB in April 1992. Your Honours, it is not within the
6 realms of the indictment, this particular municipality or SJB, so at the
7 moment we say it's objectionable to lead evidence on that because it
8 isn't relevant.
9 Your Honours, secondly, I've had a remarkable e-mail which
10 alleges that it is a proofing note. It says that the witness will
11 explain his role in drafting some of the RS MUP regulations, that's fine,
12 and the planning of the Foca action.
13 Now, Your Honours, two matters. Firstly, it is not good enough
14 to talk about saying "planning of the Foca action" without explaining
15 what on earth that means or what it is to cover. And secondly, Foca is
16 also not a municipality in this indictment. So, Your Honours, at the
17 moment, may I make it clear, I object to this evidence. As I say, rather
18 than waiting for it to start, I thought it would be simpler to deal with
19 it now.
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 Mr. Cvijetic.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the first
23 objection is concerned, you know that we dealt with this situation in
24 Sarajevo immediately before the outbreak of the war, and that is part of
25 the general context of the events. The witness will link that with his
Page 21834
1 departure from Sarajevo and the reasons for that departure. We have
2 heard evidence on that already, and this witness is possibly the most
3 competent to speak about it because he was a member of the police station
4 which was immediately attacked and he was actually a victim, which also
5 triggered some subsequent events. And these are also some reasons why
6 the joint MUP stopped functioning. This is also a topic we dealt with,
7 and it is also a prominent topic in the indictment.
8 As far as the second objection is concerned, and it pertains to
9 the contents of the witness's evidence, we did state in a proofing note
10 that he would speak about his participation in the drafting of some
11 regulations in the MUP.
12 As for the planned Foca operation, it is part of the context of
13 his evidence about field trips in the capacity of an inspector of the
14 Crime Prevention and Combatting Administration, and the bulk of his
15 testimony is about that. Among other field trips and visits, he will
16 also mention the plans to take part in that operation. I also believe
17 that the previous witness introduced this element that this witness who
18 is about to testify was supposed to take part in the operation to arrest
19 some persons. Among other SJBs, he visited Foca, Cajnice, and all the
20 others that are contained in the indictment. In the context of these
21 visits and field trips, he will mention Foca, but no more than that. You
22 needn't worry, we will not unduly waste time on that.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that is still -- firstly, my objection
24 still stands. Secondly, he hasn't explained what he is talking about
25 with the Foca operation. If this is what the witness is going to talk
Page 21835
1 about and this is completely brand new evidence, we should have had a
2 full account in the proofing note of what it was the witness was going to
3 say.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber is labouring under a bit of a handicap
7 in that we haven't yet seen the proofing note in respect of this witness.
8 So in terms of the exchange between the Bench and counsel on each side,
9 we aren't sure exactly to what extent Ms. Korner's complaint, for want of
10 a better word, about being handicapped is -- how the -- the strength of
11 that objection.
12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, it was sent
13 to -- it's not a proofing note at all --
14 It's not a proofing note at all, it's an e-mail sent to
15 Ms. Featherstone; Mr. Dygeus, who I don't believe is here; myself;
16 Mr. Smith; Mr. Cvijetic, for some reason --
17 JUDGE HALL: The same three-line summary or thereabouts?
18 MS. KORNER: It says: "Dear all, please be advised that MS-008
19 will also explain his role in drafting some of the RS MUP regulations,"
20 without explaining what that role was, which regulations. "And," and I'm
21 reading, "planning of the 'Foca action.'" That's it.
22 This --
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Now that we are all on the same page in
24 the same hymn-book, let me hear from Mr. Cvijetic.
25 MS. KORNER: Right. And should I -- I should add this,
Page 21836
1 Mr. Cvijetic will ask for ten hours.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, having regard to the purpose that a
3 proofing note serves, both as notice to the side opposite and in terms of
4 assisting the Chamber, isn't there a serious deficiency here?
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I don't see a
6 problem at all. We announced what the witness would speak about, and we
7 are not supposed to submit his complete statement or interview. It is
8 enough -- an outline is enough. The Prosecution knows what the witness
9 is familiar with and about what from their contacts with him. We did
10 not -- our motion was not that the witness should be a witness under a
11 92 ter. So he will speak about the same things that he spoke about to
12 the OTP and the topics that I mentioned in that note.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, really, Mr. Cvijetic knows that none of
14 this was covered. His interview says, I did nothing except have cups of
15 coffee, effectively, all over the place. None of what is contained in
16 this one line was ever dealt with in the interview.
17 Now, Mr. Cvijetic can explain verbally now, if he wants to, what
18 the Foca action is meant to cover, but it is to give us proper notice of
19 what the witness is to say. That is the purpose of a proofing note.
20 That gives us no indication.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, if I may add, the Chamber has, at several
22 occasions, asked also to be given copies of the background information so
23 as to allow the Chambers to familiarise themselves with the evidence
24 before the witness appears in court.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm being informed
Page 21837
1 that we submitted the witness interview and in that interview he speaks
2 about the planned operation of the Special Police, and he also tried to
3 locate it in time and state the reasons and so on. I listened to a tape
4 recording of his statement several times and we submitted the interview
5 too, and that is what I'm talking about. The relevant pages are 28, 29,
6 and 30 of his interview.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's the reference to it again. He
8 was asked about war activities. But as far as I can see, it's nothing to
9 do with Foca. In any event, Your Honours, my objection still stands, the
10 whole thing. Foca has nothing to do with the indictment. Novo Sarajevo
11 has nothing to do with the indictment. Foca, certainly, as Your Honours
12 may know, there was a whole trial over what happened in Foca. And to
13 start opening that up, Your Honours, you may think would not be of
14 assistance to anybody.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let us bring in the witness. But before the
18 witness comes, the Chamber is mindful of the obligation of counsel to
19 limit himself within the scope of the indictment.
20 Now, Mr. Cvijetic, if you wish to embark upon anything that has
21 to do with Novo Sarajevo or Foca, then you have to be offering to us an
22 explanation as to just why you do so and what exactly it is that you wish
23 to raise in relation to these two locations.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the Prosecution
25 is willing to give up the topic of the causes and reasons for the
Page 21838
1 break-up of the former Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist
2 Republic of socialist [as interpreted] Herzegovina, I will not deal with
3 that topic. We are discussing the causes and reasons for the break-up of
4 the MUP, and witnesses have been heard about that, and nobody has so far
5 been prevented to testify about the events preceding that break-up. This
6 witness would be the first one to be prohibited to speak about it.
7 As for Foca, we will not discuss Foca but with the role and task
8 of the Crime Prevention Department in the processing and prosecution of
9 paramilitaries, their detention, et cetera, which also was the goal of a
10 preceding action, the one in Zvornik, and that was also the goal of the
11 one that was planned for Foca. His task was to lead the group of
12 inspectors who were to lead the -- or who were to be members of the group
13 for the processing of the perpetrators.
14 I will only ask him about the preparations, his preparations for
15 that operation, and that will be all because the operation never took
16 place. We will never even enter Foca, as it were.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, allow me to say that all these
18 discussions could probably have been avoided if we would have been
19 provided with a proper proofing note.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Usher, please bring in the witness.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Orasanin. Do I pronounce that
23 correctly?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: You do hear me in a language you understand,
Page 21839
1 don't you?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your
4 testimony. You are about to read a solemn declaration by which witnesses
5 commit themselves to tell the truth. I need to point out that the solemn
6 declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the penalties
7 of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this
8 Tribunal.
9 Now then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the
10 solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: MILOMIR ORASANIN
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we begin by asking you to state your full
18 name and your date and place of birth, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Milomir Orasanin. I was
20 born on 8 June, 1954, in Zljebovi, which is in the municipality of
21 Sokolac.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And what is your ethnicity?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb. I'm a Serb by
24 ethnicity and an Orthodox Christian.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what is your profession today?
Page 21840
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a pensioner.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what was your occupation in 1992?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 I was a crime prevention
4 inspector in the MUP of Republika Srpska.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Now, sir, is this your
6 first testimony before this Tribunal or have you ever testified before
7 this Tribunal or in a tribunal of your country about these matters, the
8 matters relating to the 1992 war?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I'm giving
10 evidence in a trial about these matters.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay then. Let me explain to you briefly how the
12 proceedings will unfold here. You have been called as a witness by the
13 Defence for Mr. Stanisic. Mr. Cvijetic, who is sitting to your left,
14 Mr. Cvijetic has asked for altogether eight or ten hours. I don't know
15 whether the ten-hour request has already been made.
16 And after Mr. Cvijetic finishes his examination-in-chief,
17 Mr. Krgovic, who is Defence counsel for Stojan Zupljanin, will
18 cross-examine you. And the OTP will cross-examine you. Which will take,
19 in total, as we can estimate it for the moment, around five or six hours.
20 After that, we give the floor once again to Mr. Stanisic Defence. And
21 after that, and during the course of all other examinations, the Judges
22 may have questions for you.
23 There is a practical matter. The recordings of these proceedings
24 are such -- the technical conditions are such that we need to take breaks
25 every 90 minutes, and we'll take a break, a 20-minute break, after every
Page 21841
1 90 minutes. And we sit from 9.00 in the morning until a quarter to 2.00
2 every day.
3 So that's all I have to say to you. And I give the floor to
4 Mr. Cvijetic.
5 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I don't know if
6 Your Honours -- I'm sorry, I don't think Your Honours gave him a warning.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: I certainly did.
8 MS. KORNER: Oh, did you? Oh, I missed that, sorry.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: I do it, Ms. Korner, before the witness reads the
10 solemn declaration.
11 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I completely
12 missed that.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Orasanin.
18 A. [No verbal response]
19 Q. Have you replied? I didn't hear you.
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Do speak up so we can hear you.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Mr. Orasanin, in the introductory portion of the
24 examination-in-chief, it is common for a witness to tell us something
25 about his life and resume, and I would appreciate it if you could tell
Page 21842
1 the Trial Chamber chronologically when and where it was that you started
2 working, what your career path was. And if you skip anything, then I
3 will ask you about it, but please do try and speak in a paced manner.
4 A. Well, thank you. After I completed elementary school in 1973, I
5 completed the Police Academy at the intermediate level and I worked as a
6 police officer at this city SUP. In 1976 up until 1978, I went to a
7 police academy at a college level and at that time I was appointed as
8 junior inspector in the crime department. From 1981 or 1982 up until
9 1985, I went to university and I completed and received a university
10 degree in political science, and I was appointed as deputy commander at a
11 police station for public security in Novo Sarajevo, following which I
12 was appointed as the chief of the Crime Prevention Department in
13 Novo Sarajevo, and I remained in that post up until 1992, in other words,
14 until the beginning of the war.
15 In addition, I also worked, between is 1975 and 1976, as a clerk
16 for crime prevention. Perhaps I skipped that portion, I don't know. So
17 to just recap: When the war broke out, I was the chief of the
18 Crime Prevention Department in Novo Sarajevo, and this
19 Public Security Station was part of the Centre for Public Security in
20 Sarajevo.
21 When the war broke out in 1992, I worked as an inspector, a crime
22 prevention inspector, in the newly-established administration of the
23 RS MUP, and I remained in that post until, as far as I can recall, the
24 20th of November, 1992, when I was appointed commander or chief of the
25 Department for Border Affairs, and I remained in that position up until
Page 21843
1 the 11th of March, 1988 [as interpreted]. In 1988, I was the deputy of
2 the chief of public security in Zvornik up until the 31st December,
3 1990 -- 2001. 2001, apologies.
4 Q. I have to interrupt you here to clarify something in the
5 transcript. It says here that you were appointed to this post in 1988;
6 is that an error? Could you try and recall.
7 A. Well, in 1988 I was the chief of the Crime Prevention Department
8 in the Public Security Station of Novo Sarajevo.
9 Q. Yes, but the question was when were you appointed to the Zvornik
10 duty where you remained up until 2001 as you said?
11 A. Well, this came immediately after the election. The election --
12 the general elections were in 1997. And then in 1998, in March, I
13 believe the letter of appointment said the 11th of March, I'm not -- I
14 can't recall the exact date, but I think that's what it says there, and I
15 remained in that duty up in until the 31st of December, 2001. That is my
16 precise answer.
17 Q. Well, no, no, the reason I interfere was because we had in the
18 transcript "1988."
19 A. Well, that's an error.
20 Q. Very well. Please go on.
21 A. In 2001, from December 31st, I was appointed to the Intelligence
22 Security Service, and I remained there for three years, when a joint
23 service was established for the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I
24 retired in -- or, rather, I stopped working on 31st December, 2004, when
25 I prepared for retirement and I became a pensioner. And I am no longer
Page 21844
1 on active duty. I am a retired person and no longer work.
2 Q. How old were you when you started working?
3 A. Well, we started working right after elementary school. This was
4 the first generation of the first class of the academy, the police
5 academy, and I -- we were actually all accepted to work as junior police
6 officers. We were still under age, practically. And when I turned 18, I
7 began working in the full -- to the full extent.
8 Q. Well, as far as I can see, your entire career was in the
9 Ministry of the Interior?
10 A. That's correct. My entire career was within the Ministry of the
11 Interior.
12 Q. Can we please make sure that once I complete my question you just
13 pause briefly and then start answering. Perhaps you can take a look at
14 the screen and that should help you. If you can see, there's a cursor
15 there.
16 A. I can't see anything.
17 Q. Well, the usher will come and assist you in a moment.
18 A. Yes, now I can -- I see the text before me.
19 Q. Now, the police academy and your generation, your class, can you
20 remember any other people who would later on be on higher positions in
21 the Ministry of the Interior in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina? Could you just mention a few names that you went to school
23 together?
24 A. Yes, my apologies, but I just have to say that the text that I
25 see before me is in English.
Page 21845
1 Q. Well, you will be able to figure out when I have completed my
2 question and that's all you need. You don't need to see the text.
3 So do you recall my question?
4 A. Yes. The question was who was in the first generation of the
5 police academy, the cadets there. So I can name a few. Now, this was
6 the first class that was graduated from the Ministry of the Interior
7 school. It was multi-ethnic to reflect the national -- the ethnic
8 structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I know that, for instance,
9 Leotar, Jozo was in my generation, or, rather, Jozo Leotar. Ismet Dahic,
10 Mico Stanisic, Momo Mandic, Tomislav Planojevic, then a man by the name
11 of Stevanovic, Tomislav Vucic, Zivadin [as interpreted] Tutus,
12 Azim Hurtic, Ahmed Mijazomic [phoen], and others.
13 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to check whether Mr. Stanisic was in
14 that same class, that's all.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Orasanin, you did the job that you mentioned here and you
17 remained in that job after the multi-ethnic elections. Did you observe
18 any changes within the Ministry of the Interior after the multi-party
19 elections, and, if so, could you tell us what kind of changes?
20 A. Thank you for asking that. As I've already told you, I was the
21 chief for crime prevention in Novo Sarajevo at the time. There were
22 14 to 15 inspectors who were my subordinates. This was a multi-ethnic
23 group. There were Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, and we all worked together as
24 a team. It was a homogenous group.
25 After the multi-party elections, our job was far more difficult
Page 21846
1 in terms of security because we did our job within the framework of the
2 law and it was our job to prevent crime, and we dealt with general crime
3 and crimes against property, and we had numerous cases. We observed that
4 in security terms the conditions of work were in jeopardy, so we were no
5 longer able to work properly. In other words, we were between a rock and
6 a hard place, if I can put it that way. There were criminals. Criminals
7 became very prominent in those days. The courts and the prosecutors were
8 inefficient. I don't know the reasons for that. And as for working
9 conditions, we also did not have sufficient means to deal with the crime.
10 We didn't have enough fuel or other equipment, especially forensic
11 equipment, and all the other items that you need to use during an
12 investigation.
13 Later on, we observed that some criminal groups were acting
14 jointly and they were homogenous. They were dominant at the time. And
15 because of the difficulty in our work, we were actually unable to work
16 efficiently. And as I've said a little earlier, and I can't recall all
17 the names, but we did conduct analysis of all this and it was always the
18 same groups that we arrested. And the event that had to do with the
19 attack on the police station had -- was in that same vein. So all I can
20 say is that we worked around the clock but the courts and the prosecutors
21 were inefficient, ineffective in their work, and we had no resources for
22 our work.
23 There were -- well, before the war we called these groups
24 organised criminal groups and they engaged both in crimes against
25 property, that was the term, the legal term that was used, but there were
Page 21847
1 also groups that were a bit more hardcore. They also engaged in
2 robberies and aggravated crimes including violent conduct. I know that
3 they had ties to some of our men because we could see them, people who
4 still worked in our service.
5 What I'm trying to say is that after the multi-party elections,
6 various parties liked to promote their own men so that in effect we had
7 no support. Alija Delimustafic became the head of the ministry. And all
8 these people were party people. And I have to say, there were people
9 from all ethnic groups. They all tried to push their own men forward so
10 that we were left to our own resources and to our own devices in fighting
11 the criminal groups. This was so on a daily basis.
12 I can mention here Juka Prazina, Ismet Bajramovic Celo, whom I
13 know personally because in 1982 I was an operative and I was in charge of
14 a criminal investigation that was completed some six or seven months
15 later, and this criminal group was indicted and they received very high
16 sentences, prison sentence, but -- and this was in the former Yugoslavia.
17 So that's why I know -- that's how I know these people. And I know that
18 the minister, too, had ties to them because he used to be a police
19 officer and then he left the service. So there were ties with Ismet
20 Bajramovic Celo. But later on, perhaps, I can answer your questions,
21 because I don't want to be too long in my reply.
22 Q. I have to interrupt you for a moment. Please tell us just a few
23 words about the personnel policy within the ministry. Who was in charge
24 for the personnel and human resources policy within the ministry after
25 the multi-party elections?
Page 21848
1 A. Well, as I've already mentioned, after the multi-party elections,
2 in my assessment, but I don't know if I'm the competent person to speak
3 about this, I'm just saying what I think, well, but in my view the
4 personnel policy was bad. Some new people came on board and everyone
5 tried to bring their own stooges, so that the personnel policy in the
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP was conducted by Selmo -- by Hilmo Selimovic.
7 Then there was Bruno Stojic who was chief of one of the administrations,
8 I can't recall exactly which one. And then there was a Mirsad person.
9 He was the key man in the personnel department. Hilmo Selimovic was in
10 charge of the administration; he was a deputy minister. But his
11 immediate subordinate was Mirsad Srebrenkovic who was the key personnel
12 man, so that I know about some of their choices and some of the
13 activities that they engaged in.
14 Q. Well, I would like to ask you about those decisions, personnel
15 appointments, that they actually made. What did they reflect, and did
16 they in any way interfere with the personnel policy at the time?
17 A. Yes, it was obvious and it was a general rule, they didn't adhere
18 to the criteria for the manning of the reserve police force. Everybody
19 was taking on board their own people. The reserve police force was
20 manned ad hoc. The procedure wasn't respected. I know that in the
21 territory covered by our SJB it was like that, and the same goes for
22 Stari Grad. The ethnic composition was not reflected. As far as I
23 remember, only one or two Serbs were active-duty officers there. The
24 chief of the police station was Ismet Dahic.
25 In Novo Sarajevo, the commanders of the local communities were
Page 21849
1 the most important people for security. Eighty per cent of the
2 information from public security went through these people, the
3 commanders of local communities and sector chiefs. In Novo Sarajevo
4 there were only two Serbs and one Croat. There were 18 commanders of
5 local communities or sector chiefs. And I noticed that the national --
6 or ethnic balance was tipped. It was very obvious. It wasn't a secret
7 at all. We couldn't really operate in a homogenous manner as we did
8 before.
9 Q. Very well. And now, very briefly, did you have intelligence from
10 that period about people being sent to police training in Croatia by the
11 SDA party?
12 A. Yes, there was such intelligence. Actually, it was almost a
13 public thing because we spoke about it. A group of officers was sent to
14 Croatia for training, and it went through Mirsad. As far as I know, they
15 later worked in Sarajevo.
16 Q. But there was a police training school at Vraca from which you
17 graduated, so how do you explain the fact that a political party was
18 sending candidates for police training? Just briefly.
19 MS. KORNER: Just a moment. I didn't object to the first leading
20 question, "Did you have intelligence about that period about people being
21 sent to police training in -- by the SDA party?" Now he asks: "How do
22 you explain the fact that a political party was sending candidates for
23 police training?" He didn't actually say that a political party had sent
24 them for police training. He said somebody called Mirsad, whoever Mirsad
25 may be, was sent to Croatia for training. So these questions must be
Page 21850
1 asked in non-leading form. This is your witness.
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Who organised this training and who drafted or compiled the lists
4 of candidates for the training?
5 A. As far as I know, it was a parallel process that took place
6 outside the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were located somewhere on
7 Bascarsija and they acted through Ismet Dahic, but Mirsad was a MUP
8 member. And it was upon their nomination that they were sent for
9 training. That's the information I have. But Hilmo Selimovic was chief
10 of the personnel administration, whereas Mirsad was also a personnel
11 executive. So without them it wouldn't have been possible.
12 That would be my answer.
13 Q. You mentioned the name Mirsad several times. Please tell us his
14 family name.
15 A. Srebrenkovic.
16 Q. Very well. I will move on to the security situation. Not after
17 the multi-party elections, but in 1992, immediately before, open war
18 broke out. Did anything change with regard to security in 1992 in
19 Sarajevo?
20 A. Yes. When the security situation had been disrupted, we got
21 information that some criminal groups were armed. I know that. I know
22 some of them personally because I worked on [as interpreted] some of
23 them, and they had ties with Musan Topalovic, Caco. He commanded one
24 unit. I believe that they were 360 in all. They also had ties with Juka
25 Prazina. I know Juka Prazina personally because our inspectors processed
Page 21851
1 him a number of times and I was their superior. And as I said, one group
2 had ties with Ismet Bajramovic, also known as Celo.
3 Those groups were armed. Under the law or laws and regulations
4 and the constitution, they should have been considered terrorist groups
5 since they were armed. And our service was duty-bound to prevent their
6 activities. And not only the activities of those groups, but any armed
7 individuals. We were supposed to disarm them and process them. That was
8 the general attitude.
9 But before the war, and our police station was attacked on the
10 night of the 4th, but before the war, or a day or two before, it was a
11 time when I had some 15 operatives, Juka Prazina and his unit entered the
12 police social centre, and on the following day the Novo Sarajevo
13 Police Station was attacked. As far as I know, that group was led by one
14 "Puska." I'm certain that they had come from Stari Grad in two vans and
15 they changed in the immediate vicinity by the paramedical facility.
16 Q. Just tell us how that attack ended.
17 A. One person was killed, and the duty police officer from the
18 station was kidnapped.
19 Q. What's the name of the police officer who was killed?
20 A. Pero Petrovic was killed, and Lazar Bojanic was on duty shift at
21 the police station.
22 Maybe I should clarify the role of the duty officer. At a police
23 station, the duty officer is the most important person for monitoring the
24 security situation in the territory when the commander and the deputy are
25 absent, that is, after regular working hours. All information, all
Page 21852
1 reports go through that person. He basically ran everything. The
2 commander gave him assignments and there were people out on the beat
3 patrolling and everybody else who was on that particular shift. In
4 Novo Sarajevo, I think that there were 25 to 30 police officers in all.
5 Q. All right. Let's cut that short a bit. After these events, was
6 it possible to remain in a joint MUP, for you personally?
7 A. Well, I was assessing the situation. And I have already said
8 that there was -- we were a multi-ethnic organisation. There was mutual
9 trust among Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats. Our ties never really broke,
10 the ties among us. But we were all afraid of these criminal groups. We
11 were supposed to process them. They all had their police files. There
12 were several reports against each one of them. And no matter whether the
13 detective from our ranks was a Bosniak, a Serb, or a Croat, he was
14 afraid.
15 Our premises were broken into, everything had been taken out, and
16 we were afraid for our personal safety.
17 Q. What is the immediate reason for your departure? Did these
18 groups that you mentioned threaten you?
19 A. Well, it was obvious. On the eve of the war, it was a weekend.
20 I went to the country-side, that's what I usually did on weekends, and I
21 made or drafted a schedule of operative work, but then a group broke into
22 the station, and Zeljko Rakic was the duty officer at the time. He saw
23 all that. He was -- he wanted to cross the street but then he noticed a
24 man in the shadow by a bank. That's the night when that murder happened.
25 And the offices were broken into. All documents were taken out. And
Page 21853
1 then I understood that I wasn't safe and that there was no place for me
2 anymore. I didn't return.
3 Later, somebody broke into my apartment in Dobrinja. I don't
4 know if I should speak about it now or later.
5 Q. This will do for the time. After this burglar entered your
6 apartment and these events, what ensued? Did you stay in Sarajevo? And
7 when did you leave?
8 A. As I said, just before that event it so happened that I went to
9 the country-side with my family and I stayed there for two or three
10 weeks. My apartment was broken into some 10 or 15 days after that, so I
11 felt unsafe and I understood that there was no place for me there
12 anymore. I understood that there was no reason for me to go back to my
13 office because whatever we had done before we were unable to continue
14 doing. And it wouldn't have been logical for me to return to the office
15 where I used to work. And that's what the others did, too. I was afraid
16 for my safety. Afraid for my life, actually.
17 Q. Did you - and, if so, when - join the newly-established MUP of
18 the RS?
19 A. Yes. I spent three or four weeks in the country-side. And
20 later, as time passed by, I learned that the RS MUP was being
21 established. And it was a logical thing. To my mind there were two
22 options: either you go for the MUP or for the army. I opted for the MUP
23 because that's all I can do. And I think I'm trained for that kind of
24 job.
25 Q. When did you actually report to work at the RS MUP?
Page 21854
1 A. As far as I remember, it was in early May. I don't remember the
2 exact date, but it was in early May. I'm sure of that. It may have been
3 on the 3rd or 4th. I found Cedo Kljajic there and some others. And the
4 decision of my appointment was dated April, but I only reported for work
5 in May. That period was not covered. It was still the organisational
6 phase.
7 Q. Who did you find there, I mean, the personnel, and what were the
8 working conditions like at the newly-established MUP? Where did you go,
9 who did you find there, what did you do, what kind of materiel and
10 equipment did you have and so on?
11 A. Thank you for asking. It was the very beginning. And as for the
12 working conditions, well, there weren't really any working conditions at
13 all. I found Cedo Kljajic there, Dobro Planojevic. And Dobro said to me
14 that Mico Stanisic was minister, that a crime enforcement administration
15 was being set up, but there was a shortage of personnel. We didn't have
16 any equipment there, no vehicles, no materiel. We were told to sit in
17 the Kalovita Brda facility; that's at Pale. It was some sort of a scouts
18 facility. There were a couple of offices there, a telephone, and that's
19 about it.
20 Dobro said to me that the minister had ordered that we should
21 establish a professional crime enforcement administration and that we
22 should find personnel. It was the very start. And that was our task
23 that followed from the order of the minister and the laws and
24 regulations. And I asked, Well, how do we go about it? We don't even
25 have a typewriter. And then he said, Well, we'll find a way. And then
Page 21855
1 he said that at Energoinvest in Lukavica there was something. And I
2 brought a typewriter from there.
3 So we started from scratch actually. And three services were to
4 begin operating: the police administration headed by Vlastimir Kusmuk,
5 then the crime enforcement service headed by Dobro Planojevic, and
6 national security. I think it was headed by Slobodan Skipina. We had
7 four men at the very beginning. I, Dobro, we were later joined by
8 Nikola Milanovic. Later on I'll speak about personnel. There was
9 Ratko Kapetanovic and Milan Ostojic. We were looking for people because
10 we were short of people. And the orders were clear, and they were based
11 on the law and the minister's order. But as I said, we started from
12 scratch. So we had a problem.
13 Q. Very well. I'll show you a document.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't know where we're going with this, but I
15 would suggest that you focus.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
17 Q. Mr. Orasanin, I will show you a document. That's a
18 65 ter document. 10D1. That's under tab 3.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And my apologies, if I could have
20 the assistance of the usher to provide this binder to the witness.
21 I don't think we have the right document. We need 65 ter 10D1.
22 Q. Mr. Orasanin.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you please take a look at this document.
25 A. This document 120?
Page 21856
1 Q. Don't mind the numbers. Just look at the document.
2 A. Is this under number 3?
3 Q. Yes, tab 3.
4 So here we see a list of employees who worked in the
5 Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters in May, in the month of May.
6 And as we can see, there is a breakdown according to administration. At
7 the bottom of page 1, we see the Crime Prevention Administration; is that
8 your administration?
9 A. Yes. If you allow me to explain, this is the Crime Prevention
10 Administration. We see that there's Dobrisav Planojevic. It says here
11 that he's assistant minister. And then we have Goran Macar,
12 co-ordinator; Nikola Milanovic, inspector; Milomir Orasanin, inspector.
13 This was in the month of May, in other words, in the early days of
14 establishing the Crime Administration, and this is a list of employees
15 for the month of May. There is no need to comment on it.
16 Now, we also see the Police Administration; that's the other
17 administration or service that was at Kalovita Brda. Then there's
18 Vladimir -- we see Vlastimir Kusmuk, Milos Zuban --
19 Q. You don't need to read.
20 So we see there were only four men in your administration;
21 correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well. Can you recall what kind of work you did at that
24 time, in the month of May, your administration?
25 A. Well, in the month of May our job was really just to orientate
Page 21857
1 ourselves in -- during the process of establishing the Crime Prevention
2 Administration. That means that we were supposed to draw up a kind of
3 blueprint in order to operate within the bounds of the law. We were
4 preparing the departments, employment, various regulations that we had to
5 abide by that related to the Crime Prevention Department. The legal --
6 the regulations and the bylaws had not been drawn up yet. They were
7 still -- we were still in the process of preparing all those documents.
8 They had to do with the work of the Crime Prevention Administration, but
9 we were in the process of drawing up various documents, legal documents,
10 that actually guided the work of the Crime Police Administration. But
11 because we had insufficient means and resources, our first task was to
12 try and get the right personnel. So we were looking for people who could
13 work as inspectors in the field in public security stations and public
14 security centres; however, there were problems in that because we could
15 not really go out in the field. And I will get back to this a little
16 later to explain what kind of difficulties were there. But as far as I
17 can recall, this was pursuant to an order from the minister,
18 Minister Stanisic, who told him that we had a free hand, that we could
19 set up our administration in any way we wished, and that it should work
20 within legal provisions.
21 Q. Very well.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if there are no
23 objections, I would tender this document into evidence.
24 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it would be a bit otiose because
25 if Mr. Cvijetic looks at P867, you'll see the same document but with
Page 21858
1 signatures, which seems to be slightly more appropriate than this one.
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that I'm
3 tendering is a seven-page document, and it contains and lists all
4 administrations within the Ministry of Interior. The document that
5 Ms. Korner is referring to is a two-page document. Now, if you look at
6 this, you will see that there are listed all administrations at the
7 headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior, and what is relevant here
8 is that we see the structure of the ministry in those early days.
9 JUDGE HALL: And to what end is it being offered, Mr. Cvijetic?
10 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I should add, most of it's crossed
11 out of this document, so I don't know how much that's going to help.
12 There's actually crossings through - one, two, three - three of the seven
13 pages.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've already stated
15 that from these seven pages we can see the number of services and
16 administrations within the Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters,
17 and we also see what the personnel situation was. So this is why I'm
18 tendering this document.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, we are inclined to let the document
21 in, but we are concerned about the crossed out pages to which Ms. Korner
22 has referred. Is there someone who is in a position to enlighten us on
23 that?
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Orasanin, would you please look at the pages where we see
Page 21859
1 that some portions were crossed out. Do you have any information, do you
2 know anything about whether all of these services and administrations
3 actually existed in the compositions as shown here?
4 MS. KORNER: No, no, first of all, it ought to come up on the
5 screen. Secondly, that's a leading question. The simple question is, Do
6 you have an explanation for the crossings-out? Not your own ideas.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Orasanin, please take a look at page 5. You can see the
9 "Crime Prevention Service" there.
10 A. Is that under tab 4?
11 Q. No, the same tab, tab 3, but just leaf through the pages. Yes,
12 and it's crossed out.
13 A. No, it isn't.
14 Q. Well, find the page beginning with the name Goran Macar.
15 A. Well, in my binder, that's page 3, F190897.
16 Q. Very well. Now, do you know why this was crossed out? Was this
17 the composition, the personnel situation, and so on?
18 A. Well, this is a list of workers who worked in the month of
19 May 1992 and received an advance on their pay salary for the month.
20 Q. Well, just answer my question: Do you know what the crossing out
21 refers to and whether this is an actual authentic list?
22 A. Well, what I see here is a list of --
23 Q. Well, take a look at the right-hand side of the page, where they
24 had come from.
25 A. Well, I see here, for instance, Rajko Bujic was from Ilidza.
Page 21860
1 Ljuboje, Mirko also he used to be -- he is a former -- Mirko Ljuboje is a
2 former employee.
3 Q. So is this information correct?
4 A. Well, at the seat -- this information is correct.
5 Zoran Mihajlovic, Novo Sarajevo. Simo Tusevljak, Sasa Blagojevic, I know
6 them. Orasanin, Novo Sarajevo. All of them. Majstorovic, Luko;
7 Zeljko Vasiljevic. So this list is complete. Dejan, yes. All these
8 were operatives who were employees before the war, and they were now
9 listed here.
10 Q. What about number 8?
11 A. Well, that's correct, that's a MUP Novo Sarajevo, me,
12 Milomir Orasanin.
13 Q. Wait a moment. It says Mico Orasanin; is that you?
14 A. Well, that's -- this is an error.
15 Q. [Overlapping speakers] [no interpretation] ...
16 A. This is me, but it's an error. This Mico is the nickname that is
17 used for me.
18 Q. Very well. What about the right-hand column where it says where
19 you came from; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On the right-hand side, in the right-hand column, is that where
22 all these men had come from, and it was entered by hand?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Is the information correct?
25 A. Well, if you allow me, there are some errors here. For instance,
Page 21861
1 Rajko Vukovic, that's an error. It says Ilidza and it should be
2 Novo Sarajevo. So it was actually erroneously entered there.
3 Q. But did he work in Novo Sarajevo?
4 A. Yes. Mirko Ljuboje, too, but not at the headquarters. This is a
5 list of employees who were in the crime service, but the list -- the
6 list that we saw earlier was in the Crime Prevention Administration, a
7 list of employees of the Crime Prevention Administration, and that is
8 what explains the discrepancy.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is then the
10 explanation for the crossing out.
11 Q. Now, could you tell us why this was done in this manner?
12 A. Well, I don't really know. For instance, Rajko Gluhovic, I see
13 there was -- it's indicated here that he came from Ilidza, but in fact it
14 should be Novo Sarajevo.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stand by my earlier
16 request to have this document tendered into evidence. This is the
17 document that we have. We don't have any other. And it shows the full
18 staffing of the Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters. So it's up
19 to you now. I leave it to you, to your discretion.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D569, Your Honours.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see the time, and
24 perhaps we are already late for the break, so I propose that we take a
25 break now.
Page 21862
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
2 Mr. Orasanin, we will be taking our first break as indicated by
3 Judge Delvoie, so we will resume in 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, you may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Orasanin, I will now focus on your administration from the
11 organisational aspect, and I'm going to show you a number of documents so
12 we may see how the manning of your administration went.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document 8D1.
14 That's a 65 ter number.
15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... tab, please.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Tab 4. [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Orasanin, this is a list of employees of the crime
20 administration for the month of June. Can you see it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was there an increase in the number of inspectors, at least
23 according to this list?
24 A. Yes. Apart from Dobrislav Planojevic, Goran Macar,
25 Nikola Milanovic --
Page 21863
1 Q. Do read names more slowly, please.
2 A. Milomir Orasanin; Rade Miladinovic, who is under number 5;
3 Petko Pekic; Borka Kovacevic, she's a typist; Milka Cosic; and
4 Danilo Vukovic, who is also an inspector. Which adds up to a total of
5 nine new employees in the crime administration. This is a list from
6 June.
7 Q. Yes. These are the employee, but I was interested in the
8 inspectors. But the only one who's called an inspector is Danilo Vukovic
9 under 9?
10 A. Yes, Danilo Vukovic. He is an inspector with a college degree.
11 Q. So you got a new inspector who -- under number 9, Danilo Vukovic?
12 A. Yes. And the others do other jobs.
13 Q. So do you agree that this is a list of all employees of the crime
14 administration at that moment?
15 A. Yes, this is the basic administration that was located at
16 Kalovita Brda.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
18 this document into evidence.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, do we not have this information
20 already? I seem to recall the names of Dobrislav Planojevic and
21 Goran Macar from the previous document, and I'm not quite sure
22 what is ...
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a list for
24 the following month, for June. And I wish to show how the manning
25 strength of that administration grew. The one we have seen was for May,
Page 21864
1 and this is for the following month.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D570, Your Honours.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document
5 1D065476.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have a tab number, please.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 5, Your Honour.
8 Your Honours, I just want to draw your attention to the fact that
9 we wanted to add this document on a 65 ter list because it was only
10 disclosed to us recently, and its number was 900D1. So if I may, I will
11 comment on it with the witness and then we'll see about the inclusion.
12 Q. Mr. Orasanin, we'll move on to the following month, July. We can
13 see some personnel changes again, or, rather, can you see any new
14 inspectors on the list? I'm interested in inspectors only. Can you see
15 any new names there?
16 A. Thank you for this question. Yes, I remember this list. This
17 was in July. I think that Dobro told me to type it up with the typist.
18 These are the same people only reinforced by Ljubomir Kovacevic and
19 Zeljko Vasiljevic. It includes the existing inspectors and then other
20 personnel plus these two new arrivals.
21 Q. Thank you. Since you said that you personally compiled this
22 list, there's no need for me to ask you how you know it.
23 A. Yes, I remember exactly. Planojevic told me, Go ahead and do it.
24 And I did it with Borka, so I really remember this list for July.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] For the same reasons as the
Page 21865
1 previous document, I seek to tender this one as well. Or, rather, first
2 to include it in our list according to our previous submission and then I
3 would like to tender it.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, on the list that I have from you
5 listing the documents that you're going to use with this witness, tab 5
6 is already in evidence. It's Exhibit P1437.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We will check, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm very sorry. Thanks.
9 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, we understand the pattern that you
10 have shown in terms of May, June; we are now up to July. How much
11 farther are you going with this?
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Only two more months, Your Honour.
13 I'm just following the witness's presence in this administration and
14 simultaneously the manning of that administration and enabling it to go
15 about its work.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, in the Chamber's view, this document
18 ought not to be admitted because it's unnecessary for the reason that
19 the -- we have the -- what I would call the basic document which has
20 previously been admitted. And the witness has explained, for instance in
21 relation to the document presently up on the screen, July, that you look
22 at the basic document and there are these changes. We don't need the
23 document because we have the exhibit as qualified in respect of
24 subsequent months by the witness's oral testimony.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it does not explain
Page 21866
1 what the purpose is for showing these documents. The reason why I'm
2 showing them is the development of the manning strength of a very
3 important organisational unit as well as the level of manning throughout
4 1992. They started off with only four inspectors, but I want to show how
5 that unit developed and by which time it became an organisational unit
6 with the adequate number of personnel. Not merely to point out the
7 initial situation because we have seen that already.
8 JUDGE HALL: Unless I'm missing something, Mr. Cvijetic, the
9 witness's testimony on this point is how you have established that, and
10 we don't see how adding a piece of paper adds to what the witness has
11 positively testified to already. We have that.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours, I will
13 just show these lists, then, and have the witness comment on them without
14 tendering them after that. That is not a problem.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In order not to waste any more
17 time, let us move on to document 1D065479. It was -- it was to be
18 included in our 65 ter list as 901D1.
19 Q. Mr. Orasanin, have you opened tab 6? I omitted to state the
20 tab number. Take a look at this list, please. I will ask you the
21 question. It's about inspectors again. Are there any new inspectors as
22 compared to the previous list? And if any, please tell us who they are.
23 A. There is one additional staff and that is Ranko Vasiljevic,
24 but he's -- or, rather, Ranka Vasiljevic, who is not an inspector. And
25 this document is important because there was a change in the
Page 21867
1 Crime Prevention and Detection Administration.
2 Q. Just tell us whether there was a rise in the number of
3 inspectors.
4 A. Yes, Ranka Vasiljevic.
5 Q. Since this document will not be admitted into evidence, please
6 tell us the date, for the record.
7 A. This is a payroll for the month of August 1992.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, there is something wrong here. The
10 witness testified that Ranka Vasiljevic is not an inspector. That's line
11 16 on page 34. And yet when you asked whether there was a rise in the
12 number of inspectors subsequently, the witness answers: "Yes,
13 Ranka Vasiljevic."
14 So is this person an inspector or not?
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Orasanin, please answer the question of the Judge. You have
17 created confusion.
18 A. Yes, Ranka Vasiljevic was an administrator in the
19 Crime Prevention and Detection Administration.
20 Q. Please focus on the question, sir. Has there been a rise in the
21 number of inspectors, and, if so, who are the new inspectors as compared
22 to the previous month? I believe the question is clear enough.
23 A. No, there has been no rise in the number of inspectors in this
24 month as compared to the previous one.
25 Q. Very well.
Page 21868
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We will not tender this document.
2 Instead we will move on to the month of September. Could we please see
3 65 ter 37D1. That's tab 7, I apologise.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Orasanin, please look at the list for September. And my
8 question is the same again: Is there an increase in the number of
9 inspectors? And if so, tell us who the new arrivals are.
10 A. In this document for September 1992, there is a rise in the
11 number of inspectors.
12 Q. Please say the names slowly.
13 A. Sinisa Karan, with a university degree; Dragomir Peric,
14 post-secondary education; Ostoja Minic, likewise; Savka Lazic, likewise;
15 Mitar Lukic --
16 Q. Just tell us who the new inspectors are.
17 A. Mitar Lukic, Radenko Milicevic.
18 Q. Very well. Mr. Orasanin, I see your name in third place. I do
19 not have any later payrolls, so tell us, How long did you effectively
20 work in this administration?
21 A. I was on their list up until 20 November 1992. So this is
22 September 1992, while I was still on the list.
23 Q. Can you remember if you were on the list in October and received
24 your salary as an employee of that administration?
25 A. I cannot remember.
Page 21869
1 Q. Very well.
2 A. I probably was. But if I really received my salary, I couldn't
3 say.
4 Q. Mr. Orasanin, can you tell me briefly, just in a couple of
5 sentences, what the basic role and the task of the -- of an
6 Administration for Crime Prevention and Detection in the Ministry of the
7 Interior is? Just give us a brief outline of your basic tasks. And now
8 I'm referring to inspectors specifically.
9 A. The basic tasks of the Crime Prevention Administration are to
10 apply the regulations within their jurisdiction, regulations linked to
11 crime prevention. This administration has an instructive jurisdiction
12 and it also monitors the work of other crime services at public security
13 centres and public security stations. These are some legal obligations
14 which follow from legal regulations, primarily from the Law on the
15 Interior instructions on crime prevention and detection and certain other
16 instructions. So our main goal is to prevent and detect crime, with the
17 assistance of other organs such as the prosecutor's office and the
18 courts. And we assist these organs; this is the basic function. And
19 that was the basis of our work in 1992 when we were contemplating the
20 formation of the Crime Prevention Administration.
21 Q. Very well. Among others, you mentioned some instructive duties.
22 What does that imply?
23 A. Instructive tasks in this field -- and I must say that at the
24 time we just took over previous regulations, and in 1992 this was all in
25 a phase of legal regulations being created, because we simply took over
Page 21870
1 some regulations that were valid previously in Bosnia-Herzegovina and our
2 work simply followed from these. These instructions are an auxiliary
3 document, and they assist the work of the Crime Prevention
4 Administration. There are certain obligations listed in there which
5 applied to all levels of this administration.
6 Q. Just a moment. On page 37, line 10, you mention the prosecutor's
7 office and the courts, and it didn't -- it wasn't recorded what you did
8 in relation to the courts and the prosecutor's office.
9 A. Well, we assist them.
10 Q. Nothing more, we just wanted to correct the transcript.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will show you a document, and I
12 would like to have - this is an exhibit, I believe - P988. P988, please.
13 It's tab 34.
14 Q. Could you please take a look at this document, the title of which
15 is "Inspection Checklist," and please pay attention to what the
16 inspection checklist actually contains. Please look at the bullet
17 points.
18 A. This document --
19 Q. Did you look at the document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'll ask you some questions. Sir, when you look at everything
22 that a complete inspection includes, could you tell us how many employees
23 and from which services of the ministry would be involved in such an
24 inspection?
25 A. This document talks about the manner of work and inspection and
Page 21871
1 crime services; namely, for such work you would need two or three
2 inspectors who would be able to examine the entire situation in the crime
3 prevention administration of a certain area or the centre.
4 Q. Could you please wait for the question. Does this type of
5 inspection -- is this type of inspection something that was also done in
6 the previous system in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. Yes, it was done in the same way. And the regulations were taken
8 over. This was in 1992.
9 Q. My question was --
10 A. It was the same before as in this inspection checklist.
11 Q. As an inspector and as a member of a team, did you go to carry
12 out inspections in Republika Srpska?
13 A. My answer is yes. However, when we left the Crime Prevention
14 Centre, our main task would be to change the regulations [as
15 interpreted], to establish what the situation was. However, when we
16 arrived in the field, we found that the situation was completely
17 different. Crime services where I visited were either poorly organised
18 or not organised at all.
19 Q. In line -- page 39, line 6, it says -- line 5 it says that you
20 were to change the regulations, but I believe you said to apply
21 regulations.
22 A. Yes, to apply regulations.
23 Q. Were you ever in a situation in 1992 to conduct such a full
24 inspection, as this document states, and to carry out everything that is
25 listed in this document?
Page 21872
1 A. Well, in 1992, when we visited some places such as Doboj, Foca,
2 Skelani, and other places, in some places the situation that we found was
3 according to the regulations. There were records and so on. But there
4 were problems that differed from place to place. It depended on the
5 organisation and on staffing levels. In some places there were some
6 shortcomings, the situation differed.
7 Q. According to you, how much time would have been needed for such
8 an inspection to be carried out in a certain SJB in accordance with this
9 regulation?
10 A. Well, the regulations are clear. First you have to announce to
11 the SJB or to the CSB that MUP inspectors were arriving, and for that you
12 need technical abilities, so you need to have communications in order to
13 let them know that you were arriving. That's what the regulations say.
14 However, in 1992 this wasn't possible. The rule was for the
15 inspectors to announce their arrival. They would be given tasks by their
16 supervisors. And then these instructions would contain what needed to be
17 done. However, you would need at least two or three days to carry out a
18 full inspection. You would need two or three inspectors to be present.
19 However, I must also say that in 1992 this wasn't possible due to a lack
20 of means, et cetera. There were some problems.
21 Q. Very well. I'll ask you specific questions.
22 What was your primary goal in 1992?
23 A. Our primary goal was to record the situation, to see about
24 staffing levels. In some places the conditions were not met. In some
25 places there weren't enough employees. And we wanted to see whether
Page 21873
1 there were criminal records. It was a primary obligation to have
2 log-books in the crime service and to apply legal powers which were set
3 down in the Law on the Interior and the rules of the SJB. That was the
4 primary goal.
5 Q. When you went to the field, so to speak, were you given
6 instructions about what you were supposed to take to the SJBs that you
7 were visiting? And if so, please tell us what the basic instructions
8 were that you had been given.
9 A. Well, as I said, the primary instructions were to record the
10 situation and to make sure that the SJB can function, to see about their
11 activities, and to see about whether they met the conditions, and whether
12 they operated in accordance with instructions. That was the primary task
13 that we had been given by the assistant minister Dobrislav Planojevic,
14 who contacted Minister Stanisic and had been given this task.
15 In the field, the situation we found was somewhat different, and
16 there were problems.
17 Q. Since you mentioned the field, I have to ask you: Were you
18 obliged to file a report on the situation that you found in the field?
19 A. Yes, by all means. That was our obligation after our departure.
20 It's a part of instructive inspection, to file a report. It's an
21 obligation. There was only one case when we didn't send a report, and I
22 will expand on that later, why we didn't file a report.
23 Q. Before we move on to specific visits to SJBs, I'll ask you this:
24 Were you able to carry out a full inspection such as we can see in the
25 document in any of your visits to the field?
Page 21874
1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] That's already been asked.
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, your objection wasn't
3 interpreted to me. Your microphone wasn't on. I'm not sure whether
4 there was an objection.
5 MS. KORNER: I've said that's already been asked and answered.
6 And it was asked at page 39, line 13:
7 "Were you ever in a situation in 1992 to conduct such a full
8 inspection, as this document states, to carry out everything that is
9 listed in this document?"
10 And the answer follows.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I repeated the question because
12 the witness didn't give a specific answer. I want to hear a specific
13 answer from him. If you look at the answer, you'll see that it's not
14 precise.
15 Q. Mr. Orasanin, please give me a specific answer to my question.
16 And you heard the question. Were you able to carry out a full inspection
17 in any of the stations that you visited, and, if so, where?
18 A. In 1992 we were at the Doboj CSB and we recorded the situation,
19 and I believe that there some sort of instructive control was carried
20 out. And then we went to Foca and Visegrad, where records were compiled.
21 As for the others, they were perfunctory.
22 Q. So what would you call the visits that you made to other stations
23 where you didn't carry out a full inspection?
24 A. I suggested, since the instructor function according to the rules
25 is obligatory, many activities follow from it, such as the reminder on
Page 21875
1 inspection, and so we sent documents to various SJBs. I'm talking about
2 this because there was a shortage, shall we call it a visit to SJBs. We
3 didn't call it an instructive inspection because it implies lots of
4 obligations, which relates to the places where this instructive
5 inspection is carried out.
6 Q. Very well. I will ask you whether you recall, and I will call it
7 as you called it, this first visit, and I will ask you to describe what
8 this visit actually looked like and what you did.
9 A. As for the visits, I can't recall some of the dates or I might
10 have got them mixed up because it was a long time ago. And when I talked
11 to the investigator, I wasn't really prepared. I didn't want to use
12 notes to remind myself, so I think I might have got some dates mixed up.
13 I believe that first we went -- I believe I said we went to Ilijas and
14 Vogosca, whereas first we went to Skelani, Zvornik, Brcko, and that area.
15 And it was later that we visited Ilijas and Vogosca. And then after that
16 we visited Doboj and Visegrad and Foca.
17 Q. During the first visit you mentioned Bijeljina along with Brcko;
18 can you confirm that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Very well. So we'll deal with your first visit, then. Can you
21 recall as of these first four locations, what was the first place that
22 you went to?
23 A. I must tell you that as we were leaving the MUP there were always
24 problems with vehicles and with materiel. I can't remember who finally
25 gave us a vehicle, but members of the team were Drago Borovcanin and
Page 21876
1 Petko Pekic. And we went --
2 Q. Could you please tell me, members of your team, as for the
3 members of the team, who went on behalf of which service?
4 A. Drago Borovcanin represented the uniformed police, and Petko and
5 I went on behalf of the Crime Prevention Administration. There were two
6 inspectors from the Crime Prevention Administration and one inspector
7 from the Uniformed Police Administration.
8 Q. Now can you remember my first question: Can you remember what
9 your first destination was? Where did you go first?
10 A. I must tell you that after so much time -- but I know that we
11 went from Sarajevo, that is, Pale, and then there is some 150 kilometres
12 to the Drina. We crossed the Drina, we went to Zvornik, we spent two or
13 three hours there, then we went to Brcko and Bijeljina, because that was
14 the itinerary. We spent one night with relatives because there were no
15 conditions for our work. We didn't have daily allowances, so we had to
16 find accommodation. We visited the police station in Skelani, which was
17 a newly-formed police station. And on our way back, we had a traffic
18 accident. I don't know how it happened. I don't know whether it was
19 staged or not staged. It's difficult for me to explain.
20 Q. Very well. Before I ask you what you found in the police
21 stations, tell me, Did you put together a report on this visit?
22 A. We did go to those stations, only spent a couple of hours in
23 Zvornik. It was an ad hoc visit. In the territory where those stations
24 were, the ministry wasn't really up and running, and it wasn't
25 operational. We didn't do our work because it wasn't possible. Instead,
Page 21877
1 we dealt with who was on the job, trying to staff the crime prevention
2 and detection service, and so on.
3 Q. Just a minute. The question was: Did you write and submit a
4 report after your visit? Now you can answer.
5 A. No, we didn't because we had a traffic accident and the colleague
6 had to be taken to hospital. That's why we didn't write a report.
7 Q. Very well. Then let's see what you saw there, what the situation
8 was. If you don't know the exact date, can you tell us roughly when you
9 when on that visit?
10 A. I'm certain that it was mid-May or late May 1992.
11 Q. Very well. My question is, Did you go to Zvornik at that period
12 and were you able to?
13 A. When we went to Zvornik, not the town itself because it wasn't
14 safe, we stayed at Karakaj, it's a cross-roads. That's where we stayed,
15 and we visited the police station.
16 Q. Who did you find in Karakaj?
17 A. Well, I can only tell you what I know. We stayed there for an
18 hour or two. In my opinion, they were totally disorganised. They
19 weren't operational. The police station didn't have executive personnel.
20 There was Marinko Vasilic and Petko Panic. The people there were all
21 frightened. As far as I know, the Crisis Staff appointed some people
22 there. Those were the most important problems.
23 I personally spoke to Marinko Vasilic in front of the building
24 because there weren't any conditions really there. They didn't have a
25 functioning police station. It was only a couple of offices on the
Page 21878
1 premises of a company. I think it was called Standard. And I suggested
2 to him that he become the commander of the police station because there
3 was a complete disorganisation and we wanted to include them into our
4 structure legally. And that's actually more what we focused on rather
5 than dealing with crime prevention problems, because it wasn't possible.
6 I tried to persuade him to start running the police station
7 because it was better for him to do it as a professional than somebody
8 else.
9 Q. Very well. You mentioned the local Crisis Staff as the
10 institution that appointed people. Do you know who was appointed by the
11 Crisis Staff?
12 A. As far as I know, it was an elderly man at the time, Pantelic I
13 believe his name was, but I don't remember his first name.
14 Q. Do you remember where he was from?
15 A. I think that he hailed from Loznica. He may have been a
16 pensioner already. He was so old that at the time I thought that he was
17 no longer physically capable of doing the job.
18 Q. Having mentioned Loznica, do tell us where that town is, the
19 place where he hailed from.
20 A. Loznica is in Serbia, some 30 kilometres or so from Zvornik.
21 Q. Very well. Did you observe that the MUP had decided to appoint
22 chiefs of SJBs, and when and how did that come about?
23 A. After that traffic accident, we didn't work for a while. But I
24 know that it was some two or three months later, as far as I remember,
25 after the arrest of that paramilitary group, the Yellow Wasps. All
Page 21879
1 decisions on appointment at the time were temporary, but that's when the
2 first --
3 Q. No, don't -- let's leave that issue aside now. Just tell us the
4 name of the first man in that position.
5 A. The first chief of the SJB there, and I think it was July, his
6 name was Milorad Lokancevic, who was appointed pursuant to a decision of
7 the ministry, and it was a temporary decision, as far as I remember. I
8 know the man. I met him later.
9 Q. When you spoke about Mr. Pantelic, which position were you
10 discussing all the time? That is, which position was he in?
11 A. Well, I don't really remember all details, because when we stayed
12 there briefly, we couldn't even sit down at the office and talk.
13 Q. Just briefly.
14 A. He was chief of the SJB of Zvornik, so he was the number one man
15 for the -- for policing.
16 Q. Apart from the organisational work and the staffing matters, you
17 weren't really in a position to do what you were supposed to do about the
18 crime prevention and detection service?
19 A. Yes, I can answer that question. We didn't even go to Zvornik.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I anticipate your objection. I
21 know it's leading, but the witness actually said it.
22 MS. KORNER: It doesn't make it any better. And I don't think he
23 did say it. You cannot really ask a question that says, You weren't
24 really in a position to do what you were supposed to do.
25 He gives the evidence, not you, Mr. Cvijetic.
Page 21880
1 MR. CVIJETIC: Okay. Okay. [Interpretation] All right. I
2 understand. Let me phrase it this way:
3 Q. Were you able to do the work you had set out to do?
4 A. No. And that's only logical because the police station wasn't
5 really properly organised. We only found five or six people there who
6 weren't really organised. They didn't even have a premises. Their
7 proper premises were in Zvornik, so we couldn't really do the job in that
8 one hour that we were there.
9 Q. It was recorded that you said that the police station wasn't
10 properly organised, but you said that it didn't really exist?
11 A. Well, it did exist in three offices, but it wasn't really
12 organised as a service to function in accordance with the laws and
13 regulations.
14 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm being pedantic
15 about this, but the rule that's being followed is that if something has
16 been mistranslated, then the witness is asked to repeat it, not that
17 Mr. Cvijetic, counsel, tells him what he said.
18 So that should be followed, please.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I accept your objection. That's
20 how I'll proceed from now on.
21 Q. Mr. Orasanin, what did you see in Skelani?
22 A. The three of us visited Skelani. Skelani was -- Skelani became a
23 municipality at the time. Before the war, there was a police substation,
24 not really an SJB. We went there and we knew the man who I think also
25 was chief of the Crisis Staff there. He -- we talked to him and found
Page 21881
1 out that the Crisis Staff had established a police station, because
2 before the war there had only been a police substation or branch police
3 station actually, so they had appointed some of their own people there.
4 We discussed that and made it clear that it must be in line with
5 the laws and regulations governing the work of the ministry. There were
6 about a dozen police officers or so. I can't remember. We spoke to the
7 commander and said that it must be clear whether they are eligible or
8 not, and then we got a list.
9 It wasn't really our job. We were crime prevention and detection
10 inspectors. But on the other hand there was nothing else for us to do.
11 So we wanted to make sure that the police station is established in line
12 with the laws and regulations governing the work of the ministry.
13 There were always problems with staffing. We would nominate some
14 people, but the local -- locals didn't like that, the powers that be, as
15 it were, and that's how it was in Skelani and everywhere else. That was
16 the constant bone of contention between the local authorities and the
17 official structures.
18 Q. You never said who -- what the name of the man was who ran that
19 branch police station.
20 A. It was Marko Milanovic.
21 Q. Please wait for my question. Did he state the reasons for the
22 Crisis Staff establishing a branch police station or police station
23 proper?
24 A. I must wait for the cursor, yes.
25 I was able to speak to him because I had known him from before.
Page 21882
1 He was a police officer and had worked as such and then he retired. I
2 asked him, What is this all about? because I didn't understand the
3 situation. How do you select your personnel? And then he replied, If we
4 waited for you to do it, we would be in a position to have to flee across
5 the Drina. They -- his reply was -- or, rather, I said, But they must be
6 employees of the ministry, responsible people, to live up to their
7 duties.
8 Q. Just a bit of patience. I'm interested in his explanation why
9 the Crisis Staff had done it that way. And what became of that man? Did
10 he remain in his position?
11 A. I don't really remember the dates. But on one occasion when he
12 was fleeing Skelani, he was killed on the bridge over the Drina.
13 According to the information I got from some police officers, he
14 didn't want to withdraw in time, so he was killed while he was crossing
15 the bridge.
16 Q. But tell us, just in one sentence, who attacked Skelani? What
17 kind of operation was it?
18 A. That was just one of about a dozen operations that are well
19 known. It was an action conducted by Naser Oric, who attacked Skelani
20 with his unit. I think that a village was torched in the process. He
21 didn't want to leave among the first; he stayed there until the end and
22 then he got killed.
23 Q. How many victims were there in that operation?
24 MS. KORNER: Can we have a date, please, before we go on with
25 this.
Page 21883
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you remember when that action took place, when this man was
3 killed?
4 A. Well, I can't really say. It may have been in late 1992 or early
5 1993. I can't remember.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let's deal with something that you have just mentioned, that you
10 took a list of the employees who were there at the time. And you said
11 that although it wasn't your job, you wanted to turn them into MUP
12 personnel.
13 And so explain to us what the procedure is, in essence; how are
14 such decisions issued?
15 A. I must say that not only there in Skelani, but elsewhere too,
16 although now I can't remember the exact places, there were police
17 officers who were not under our command. As far as I remember, we were
18 couriers and drivers rather than inspectors, really, because there was
19 total disorganisation. That's what I witnessed. We took those lists.
20 We considered that to be our duty. But it was actually the work of
21 Drago Borovcanin, because he was a uniformed police inspector. But it
22 was actually me who made that suggestion to take those lists and check
23 the procedures and see whether those police officers were eligible, and
24 if so, that they should be issued decisions on their appointment. All
25 these being temporary. I think I also had lists from Milici and Sekovici
Page 21884
1 and some other stations. But there were no communication lines, and
2 there was no courier service either. So that was actually the bulk of
3 our work.
4 Q. Do explain why the decisions on appointment were temporary.
5 A. For the simple reason that it wasn't possible to vet all those
6 people or actually apply the provisions of the labour law that sets out
7 the general conditions for work in the police. It wasn't even possible
8 to check them, see if they have police files. It was the minister's
9 decision and the assistant minister's. I wasn't at the collegium though.
10 But I know that it was decided that they should be given temporary
11 appointments before they become full professionals, because there was
12 special conditions in place for the MUP, for employment with the MUP.
13 Q. Do wait for my question. Which regulation of the MUP lays down
14 the conditions for a future employee of the ministry in order to become
15 appointed? What regulation is that?
16 A. As far as I know, as far as I recall, this document follows from
17 the Law on Internal Affairs. Rules of procedure are passed of the
18 Ministry of the Interior, and these rules of procedure prescribe certain
19 special conditions for the employment of people in the ministry. And
20 then it's on the basis of these special conditions that they have special
21 obligations.
22 Once an employee of the MUP receives a decision, then according
23 to the regulations and according to the rules of procedure on internal
24 structure, this person has certain rights but also has certain
25 obligations. The rights are that he would get a salary, he would get
Page 21885
1 annual leave, and other rights that follow from the labour law. Whereas
2 the obligations are to apply all the regulations, all police powers,
3 which also follow from the Law on Internal Affairs and from the rules of
4 procedure on public security. These are obligations. This is why the
5 decisions were all temporary, because there's a lot of responsibility
6 there. And our leadership realised that they were taking on a large risk
7 if they issued decisions without properly checking everybody.
8 When we went on our visits - I can't call it an inspection - we
9 noticed that there were some wild people, so to call them, who had our
10 identity cards. At one check-point we showed our old identity cards and
11 there was somebody from the military police there. He said, Never mind
12 about that, I have that as well. And it was a blank official identity
13 card. I was really astonished. These were probably some of the reasons
14 why all the decisions were temporary. There was a lot of responsibility
15 in giving a permanent decision to somebody for work in the MUP.
16 Q. Could you please repeat the name of this internal document of the
17 MUP. It wasn't recorded. Could you please tell us slowly.
18 A. It's the Rules of Procedure on Internal Organisation.
19 Q. Please tell us, in 19 -- was it passed in 1992?
20 A. These legal documents --
21 Q. Or was it being worked on?
22 A. All these legal documents, as far as I recall, in the field of
23 the crime service --
24 Q. Could you please answer me.
25 A. No, I didn't see it at the time. I didn't see that we had it at
Page 21886
1 the time. If we had, we would have had some kinds of instructions. It
2 was -- it would have been drafted after I left the crime administration.
3 Q. I'm interested in the status of those who didn't have any
4 decisions. Formally, legally, were they members of the MUP?
5 A. No, they were not members of the MUP formally or legally, nor did
6 they have any powers or obligations. They could not apply any police
7 powers. They couldn't exercise any police powers. That was the problem.
8 Q. Was there also a problem with the fact that if they didn't have
9 these decisions -- actually, could any proceedings be instigated against
10 them if they didn't have these decisions?
11 A. I said a moment ago that the decisions issued by the MUP implied
12 that you had duties and obligations. However, if you weren't a member of
13 the MUP, then you didn't have these obligations.
14 Q. Very well. I believe that we're done as far as Skelani is
15 concerned.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We should move on to Brcko and
17 Bijeljina now, so, I don't know, Your Honours, whether we should start
18 with these two municipalities because they're rather large.
19 Q. We could be shorter about Bijeljina, so maybe you could tell us
20 about how long you spent in Bijeljina and what you did there.
21 A. Well, as for Bijeljina, we hadn't really planned to be there. We
22 had planned to be in Brcko and see about things in Brcko. The plan was
23 that to get -- on our way back, since you had to pass through Bijeljina
24 to go to Zvornik, we would drop by in Bijeljina.
25 Q. Very well. So before the break, can you tell us what you did
Page 21887
1 specifically in Bijeljina, what you found there?
2 A. Well, I thought we should do it chronologically, since we first
3 went to Brcko and this was on our way back and there was an unpleasant
4 incident there. But we went to the police station in Bijeljina. None of
5 the chiefs were there. We found the chief of legal affairs who had
6 nothing to do with the operatives. There were no people there, so we had
7 coffee with him. His name was Grkinic. He saw us, we had coffee with
8 him. However, as for the job that we had come to do, he couldn't help us
9 with because he was dealing with legal and administrative affairs, so we
10 continued on our way.
11 Q. Very well.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I'm going to
13 move on to Brcko municipality and I believe I'll spend some more time
14 there because it's rather important, I would like to suggest that we take
15 a break a minute or two before and then we'll continue.
16 JUDGE HALL: Very well. So we would resume in 20 minutes.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.
20 JUDGE HALL: While the witness is on his way back in,
21 Mr. Krgovic, we are reminded that we have yet to receive your estimates
22 for cross-examination of this witness.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, that's because -- [microphone not
24 activated] ... Your Honours, it's because we don't have questions for
25 this witness.
Page 21888
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes, you may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. Mr. Orasanin, if you remember, before the break we mentioned
6 Brcko, so I would like to ask you to tell us briefly how long you stayed
7 in Brcko, what you found there, and so on.
8 A. We passed through Bijeljina and we went to Brcko. As far as I
9 know, there were some combat operations around the town, so the town
10 itself looked like there had been a war. That's what I could see on my
11 way into town. We went to the police station. As far as I know, the
12 chief wasn't there. Instead an inspector was there whose name was
13 Gavrilovic. His brother worked at the Crime Prevention Administration of
14 the Bosnian MUP, I believe. And I think that his name was Pero or Petar.
15 We went there and we talked to him. The crime service there
16 wasn't organised. I believe that he was in charge of some tasks, whether
17 it was state security or something. I didn't know him before the war.
18 So anyone who I didn't know before, I was a little bit careful with. But
19 we didn't do anything special there. When we arrived, we were quite
20 hungry because when we went to the field we didn't get any daily
21 allowance or anything, so this man took us out to lunch.
22 I can't remember exactly, I believe that we went on foot from the
23 police station to the hotel, which is some hundred metres away, I think.
24 There was a sniper that was shooting. Drago Borovcanin was there, I was
25 there, and Gavrilovic. I should tell you that I found it all a little
Page 21889
1 suspicious because there were few ricochets some ten metres from us. The
2 ricochets went around, hits the asphalt, and then you, I found that a
3 little suspicious. You can't say that I was afraid, but I was afraid,
4 and there were a few such shots.
5 We went inside to have a bite to eat, and on our way back I
6 believe that Pekic left the car there. I can't remember the details. I
7 know that we walked from the police station and the car was in front of
8 the hotel. We noticed that we had a flat tire. We thought that we had a
9 flat tire, so we wanted to find assistance to get a new tire and we
10 replaced it. We put the flat tire in the boot and we went back. The
11 duty officer was there and Gavrilovic was at the police station. As far
12 as I recall, nobody else was there. That was the reason that we stayed a
13 short time. Practically we gave up on any sort of work.
14 And when we returned and came to Bijeljina, I said this before
15 the break, that we spent some time in Bijeljina, however, our goal was to
16 continue on our way, because Brcko is some 200 kilometres or even more
17 away from Pale. So as we went to a mechanic to check the tire and to
18 replace it, he told us that the tire didn't just burst but that somebody
19 released all the air from it through the vent. That was our time in
20 Brcko, basically.
21 Q. Could you tell us whether you received an explanation from
22 Mr. Gavrilovic as for why everything was empty and what was happening in
23 Brcko?
24 A. As far as I recall, and I don't want to guess or I don't want to
25 make a mistake, but it seemed to me that this man was afraid. He was
Page 21890
1 afraid. I knew that his brother had either already gone or was planning
2 to go to Austria, to Vienna, and I think he was also contemplating
3 leaving. I think he was afraid of some people there who also prepared
4 this sabotage for us. It was later that some things turned out clearly.
5 This is just my assumption.
6 Q. What kind of people are you talking about?
7 A. I'm talking about the time that I spent there, that hour, hour
8 and a half. I didn't know at the time. I could tell that he was afraid.
9 He said there were some people there but we didn't go into any detail. I
10 assumed that he was afraid, that people were afraid there. There might
11 have been about a dozen people there.
12 Q. Very well. I'll ask you about paramilitary -- was he referring
13 to paramilitary formations in Brcko?
14 A. Well, he mentioned them, but we didn't go into any details
15 exactly because of the snipers. We just went to the police station. And
16 because we were hungry, as far as I recall he said, Let's go and grab a
17 bite and we'll talk about it there. And then on the way, I told you what
18 happened. And I believe I might have initiated that we pull back to
19 Bijeljina and have somebody else do the job later on.
20 That is, there was a second team that we ran into on our way, and
21 they were going from Sarajevo. I believe Vukovic was among them. And
22 Dragan Andan was with them. I told Vukovic about these things and I told
23 him this so they wouldn't be afraid, but I was primarily concerned about
24 my own safety and I told this to Danilo Vukovic. After three, four, or
25 five days, as far as recall, they went to Bijeljina and they visited the
Page 21891
1 area. This was five, six, or ten days later. First they went to
2 Bijeljina to get accommodated. I know that we ran into them at a well,
3 they were drinking some water, and that's the story.
4 Q. I'll just ask you shortly, Did you know that later on there was
5 an operation carried out in Brcko, an operation of disarming the
6 paramilitaries that you mentioned? Did you know about that or not?
7 A. What I was talking about was around that time, around that date.
8 I know that this was after our departure. I know that when these people
9 went there, they established that there were some paramilitary groups who
10 were terrorising the people, including the police, and that they were
11 helpless. I believe that a different team went there to establish the
12 facts. But I was telling you about the time that we were there. All the
13 rest happened later on.
14 Q. Very well. As for this first visit to the four municipalities,
15 as we'll call it, let me ask you this: Where did the traffic accident
16 happen? Can you just tell me the location where it is. Don't tell me in
17 detail about the accident.
18 A. It was in Serbia. There's a cross-roads at the border. This was
19 the only free road, the only passable road.
20 Q. I'll ask you about that later.
21 Between these four municipalities, did you have to enter the
22 Republic of Serbia in order to get there?
23 A. Yes, by all means. There was no other way.
24 When we went to Foca, we went into two countries, practically.
25 We travelled through Serbia and Montenegro. That was the only passable
Page 21892
1 road. And it was the same for Skelani.
2 Q. Between Bijeljina and Zvornik, did you have to pass through
3 territory controlled by Muslim forces, that is, did you actually do this?
4 A. The road between Bijeljina and Zvornik was free.
5 Q. I mean when you're going towards Bratunac.
6 A. Yes, towards Bratunac, yes. Let me just explain. On the
7 Zvornik-Bijeljina-Brcko road, you have -- it's practically one road;
8 however, if you're going towards Skelani, you have to cross over to
9 Serbia and travel along the other side of the Drina in order to finally
10 get to Skelani.
11 Q. Specifically I want to know whether you at any point risked
12 travelling through territory controlled by the Muslim forces.
13 A. That was when we were travelling from Sarajevo and Pale. It was
14 on that road. That's the road towards Vlasenica.
15 Q. No, I meant --
16 A. No, not between Brcko and Bijeljina. That was on our way there.
17 Q. Very well. I thought that towards Bratunac there was a road that
18 you had to pass.
19 A. That was on our way there. We hadn't even arrived. This was
20 around Sarajevo and Vlasenica.
21 Q. Mr. Orasanin, if we're done with that visit, and we have already
22 explained that you didn't write a report, according to what you said by
23 way of introduction, the following visit, documented by a written report,
24 was the one covered by the report on the activities of the police
25 stations at Vogosca and Ilijas. It's under tab 8.
Page 21893
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 00397, which is an exhibit,
2 P989. [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to the last page of the
5 report to see the signatures, and I'll come back to the front page.
6 Q. Mr. Orasanin, can you identify your signature down there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the other person who went with you? It says here that it is
9 Drago Borovcanin.
10 A. I can comment on this. Drago Borovcanin is mentioned under
11 number 1, and I'm mentioned under number 2. When there are joint
12 inspections or audits, the Police Administration is mentioned first and
13 the Crime Prevention and Detection Department is mentioned second because
14 the regular police are more numerous.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us turn to the
16 first page, and I don't mean the cover page, and the section about the
17 Vogosca SJB. Let us wait for the English translation. Here it is.
18 Q. Please take a look at this to jog your memory, and then I'll ask
19 you about the contents of this report.
20 Are you done?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Very well. Unless you have anything special to say about
23 Vogosca, I would like to go to the fourth paragraph in Serbian, which
24 begins with "It is necessary to point out."
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It is on the same page in the
Page 21894
1 English version, the last paragraph.
2 Q. Please read this paragraph. You don't have to read it aloud.
3 Please explain what this is about. What personnel problems is Vogosca
4 SJB faced with?
5 A. There were problems with the chief of the station, the commander
6 of the station, and all the executive personnel. This is more police
7 business, but I know about it. There too, as far as I know, because we
8 stayed there for a couple of hours, there was no chief of SJB. There was
9 no commander either. They didn't have appointments. If I remember well
10 then, Boro Maksimovic was there at the time. And Vlado Kelovic, I think.
11 I didn't remember when I first mentioned it, but, yes, they had some kind
12 of appointments. But the latter part was done by Drago Borovcanin
13 because this had do with the uniform police, so it isn't my line of
14 business.
15 They had appointments -- or, rather, they didn't have
16 appointments from the MUP - but did they actually have appointments? - I
17 think there were appointments by the Crisis Staff, this Boro Maksimovic.
18 I think he was wounded at the time. There may have been an attack on the
19 police station by some group.
20 Q. Were there any problems with the staffing of this police station
21 bearing in mind what you've just said, that Maksimovic and the others
22 were appointed by the local authorities?
23 A. Yes, I know about this, but actually more from a later period
24 because I worked for the Crime Prevention and Detection Administration.
25 There was resistance there, resistance to the appointment of people whom
Page 21895
1 we wanted, we the ministry. We wanted people from the service. We
2 always relied on the people who had worked in the service before rather
3 than on these upstarts, this party personnel, because they didn't have
4 the adequate experience and knowledge.
5 And the same problem was in Vogosca. And I know that this
6 problem wasn't solved and it was transferred to the assistant minister.
7 Dobro Planojevic told me about it. There was a problem with the people
8 whom we had nominated, but there was also a problem with the uniformed
9 police, whether they would get appointments where the local authorities
10 had the say. Actually, they had more of a say than we did.
11 Q. Very well. And did the ministry then appointment people to these
12 positions we're talking about, that is, chief and commander, and how was
13 it implemented in the field? Were there any problems?
14 A. I cannot remember all details, but I know that the inspectors
15 went there again after a month or so to solve the problem. I think
16 Milanovic went there, maybe even Planojevic, to appoint our man. As far
17 as crime is concerned, we nominated Zivko Lazarevic, who was a very good
18 inspector; and we nominated Brano Vlaco, who used to work at the CSB.
19 But I remember that we --
20 Q. Just a minute. The paragraph you are now talking about is on the
21 following page. It's on this page in Serbian, but it's on the following
22 page in English. That's why I interrupted you, to call up the following
23 page. Here it is.
24 Here in this paragraph these two names are mentioned in the
25 centre of the page, Vlaco and the other. Are these the people you
Page 21896
1 nominated?
2 A. Yes, but when we were there and completed our job and returned,
3 since we also had problems in getting there. So I don't want this to
4 sound as if I'm complaining all the time.
5 There were also sniper shots on our way there, so we went back on
6 a different route. We nominated Zivko Lazarevic and Brano Vlaco, but it
7 was upon the initiative of Milos Zuban maybe, I'm not sure, or
8 Cedo Kljajic, or possibly Dobro was the one who suggested that we should
9 nominate these people.
10 Q. Do read your proposal with all the names. Read them out but
11 slowly, please. It's at the bottom of this page in Serbian. Please read
12 it out aloud, just the names.
13 A. "We suggest that the employee working there so far,
14 Zivko Lazarevic, be appointed head."
15 Q. And then?
16 A. "And that Branislav Vlaco, inspector in the former Sarajevo CSB,
17 be appointed crime prevention inspector."
18 He was an economist by training and he worked on white collar
19 crime, not general crime. That's why I know this.
20 Q. Was he a member of the Vogosca SJB?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You stated his nickname or shortened first name; please state it
23 again for the record.
24 A. It is Brano. I know the man personally.
25 Q. Now, was your staffing proposal accepted or what was the outcome?
Page 21897
1 A. There were problems there. I think that he left sometime -- at
2 some point later and did something else.
3 Q. Do you know where he went and what he did?
4 A. Yes, I know that. Now he's the manager of the Raiffeisen Bank in
5 Bijeljina.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the accused's
7 microphone be switched off.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you know what happened with Boro Maksimovic and Vlado Kelovic?
10 A. I think that Boro Maksimovic was wounded --
11 Q. At the beginning. But what happened finally? Did he stay?
12 A. They were removed, but it was after the arrival of the other
13 team. They were removed from their positions. They were people
14 nominated by the SDS.
15 Q. Do you know why they were removed? Just briefly.
16 A. As far as I know, the reason was unprofessional conduct and the
17 failure to take adequate measures from their job description that were
18 necessary for the operation of the SJB, which is keeping up law and
19 order, combatting crime, and so on.
20 Q. Let's move on to the last page of this document and focus on the
21 Ilijas SJB.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The microphone of the
23 second accused is switched on again.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Have we found Ilijas in the
25 English translation?
Page 21898
1 Q. Please focus on this second paragraph, halfway through. You were
2 saying here that they have poor communications due to poor VHF channels.
3 What was the communications system like at the stations you visited? Was
4 it operational?
5 A. At the beginning, in May, some lines were down at the local
6 level. I'm not a communications guy, but we didn't really understand why
7 it was like that because Vogosca and Ilijas were only some 20 kilometres
8 apart, but they couldn't communicate, nonetheless. It may have been for
9 reasons that have to do with the communications system. Possibly there
10 was interference. Zvornik and Sarajevo couldn't communicate, but I
11 understood that. I didn't understand why these two couldn't. The
12 communications system was disrupted.
13 Q. I'll ask you now about the eastern part that you visited before
14 we move on to the west. To which CSB did the SJBs from the eastern part
15 that you moved about in belong to before the war, organisationally
16 speaking, at the time of the previous MUP? Do you remember?
17 A. Yes, I do. Before the war, the ministry had eight centres, I
18 believe: Bihac, Banja Luka, Doboj, Tuzla, Sarajevo, Gorazde, Mostar.
19 Eight. Is that eight? Yes, eight. And these public security services
20 or Security Services Centres had some SJBs under them that were organised
21 at the municipal level. Tuzla included the following municipalities:
22 Brcko, Bijeljina, Ugljevik, Zvornik, Vlasenica, Sekovic, Milici,
23 Srebrenica, Gradacac. I think there was Srebrenik.
24 Q. Here is my question: What about these municipalities that were
25 left without their superior centre; how did they function at the
Page 21899
1 beginning and what situation did you find there?
2 A. After our arrival and once we made a snap-shot, we saw that they
3 weren't functioning. I'm talking about the management. The other
4 stations such as Ugljevik, Bijeljina, Brcko, Zvornik, Bratunac - how
5 should I put it? - in early 1992 they were left hanging. The
6 organisation hadn't been up and running. The MUP hadn't been established
7 yet. I know that later they were placed under Sarajevo CSB, such as
8 Bratunac, Zvornik, Milici, Vlasenica, and at that time there were many
9 problems until they were re-subordinated, as it were. Only local
10 authorities had the say there, the Crisis Staffs and what have you.
11 That's why our intention was to include them in the functioning of the
12 ministry, legally speaking, and that they be included in our chain of
13 command. There was a bigger rift because of that. We had no influence
14 there, no influence on these stations. I'm talking about May, June, and
15 July when I first went there.
16 Q. Can you remember the Gorazde CSB of the once MUP and the stations
17 that remained a part of the MUP of Republika Srpska?
18 A. As far as I recall, and I'm more familiar with the
19 Sarajevo Centre, I know about places in the Tuzla sector and after the
20 war and I know that the Tuzla Centre included Rogatica, Visegrad, Rudo,
21 Foca, and Cajnice. It practically was this territorial organisation.
22 Q. We'll have to correct something in the transcript. It says that
23 the Tuzla Centre included these municipalities, but my question referred
24 to Gorazde. You said that you were more familiar with the Tuzla region?
25 A. Yes, yes, that's what I said.
Page 21900
1 Q. So what you just listed refers to the Gorazde CSB; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Very well.
4 What you said a moment ago regarding the stations from the Tuzla
5 area, did it also apply to the Gorazde area? Can you tell us who
6 controlled Gorazde throughout the war?
7 A. Yes, it was the same situation. It's logical that it would be
8 the same situation. There were other problems. This was my view of
9 things, and this may not be my field of expertise. There were problems
10 regarding the organisation of the prosecutor's office and the courts.
11 Nothing functioned properly in the areas that we visited. That was our
12 understanding. Wherever we went we saw that the prosecutor's office or
13 the courts were not functioning, so these stations and these
14 municipalities were left as I put it a moment ago, hanging. They were
15 nobody's. They were outside of our organisation, outside the area of
16 both the judiciary and the police. The judiciary at the time was rather
17 slow and inefficient. I believe that we were better than they were, in
18 the municipalities.
19 Q. Very well. From the police point of view, did you find processed
20 case files but they couldn't be handed over to anybody, they were just
21 filed in drawers because there was nobody to hand them over to?
22 A. Yes. There were such cases, and there is a report. But it's
23 impossible to remember everything because it's been a long time. I know
24 that there were problems, particularly relating to the organisation of
25 the judiciary and the prosecutor's office. I know about this because
Page 21901
1 when we left Sarajevo, when our supervisors told us to go and look into
2 things, we asked, Well, what do we look at? We were to look at the
3 conditions.
4 Somebody gave me a document that I carried with me, and it
5 related to the organisation of the prosecutor's office and the judiciary.
6 I believe this was some decisions. I can't remember whether it was the
7 Presidency that made a decision forming courts, the prosecutor's office,
8 and prisons. But since they were unable to send these to the field, it
9 arrived to the administration, and then we were to carry this document
10 with us. I remember that.
11 However, the places that we visited, like Visegrad and Foca,
12 Brcko, Rudo, Cajnice, the prosecuted's office wasn't functioning at all,
13 and neither was the court. That was what we found. So the case files
14 were just left there.
15 And as for the civilian prosecutor's office, while it was being
16 set up, the stations were supposed to keep functioning, and the case
17 files that belonged to the military prosecutor's office were to be sent
18 to Bileca. That was -- those were our instructions, as far as I recall.
19 And it was a problem, I mean, as far as I remember, this wasn't organised
20 at all at the time that I left the crime service.
21 Q. Very well. Mr. Orasanin, I believe that based on the chronology
22 of things we are now at your arrival to the CSB in Doboj. Do you agree
23 with me that that was the next place you visited chronologically, or am I
24 mistaken?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
Page 21902
1 Q. So according to the chronology, Doboj follows; right? Very well.
2 I will first show you a document so we could establish when it was that
3 you left. Just a moment, let me find it. There we go, it's tab 11. And
4 this is Exhibit P404. Please take a look before I ask you a question.
5 Mr. Orasanin, do you recall this authorisation?
6 A. Yes, I remember it now. Initially I couldn't recall it.
7 Q. Can you remember where you were when this authorisation was
8 drafted and who drafted it?
9 A. Having viewed this document, I remember that I was in Brcko.
10 This document was written by Nikola Milanovic and --
11 Q. One moment. Who is Nikola Milanovic?
12 A. He is an inspector in the Crime Prevention Administration and he
13 was with us.
14 Q. Please go on about the authorisation and its origins. Who wrote
15 it?
16 A. We had already set off. I might have forgotten some things, but
17 there were some problems about our presence, about us checking identity
18 cards without any sort of authorisation. We weren't authorised to work
19 there, and there were various checks along the way. So this
20 authorisation was written in Brcko. He had contacted Goran Macar on the
21 telephone and we laid down some tasks and obligations and also identity
22 cards so that we could go there. That's why it has the stamp. It was in
23 Brcko.
24 Q. Very well. The document says "Authorisation," so that's what
25 we'll call it. Please tell me who signed this authorisation.
Page 21903
1 A. I believe it was signed by Milanovic, I think. No.
2 Q. Did Mr. Milanovic ask authorisation from Goran Macar on the
3 telephone to draft this authorisation and even to sign it?
4 A. He talked to him on the phone and he sought approval from
5 Goran Macar. He sought approval from Goran Macar.
6 Q. So you had this document with you when you set off for Doboj; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now that you've seen the date at the top --
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 21904
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, that seems to be the best course.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Milanovic -- Mr. Orasanin, I apologise, Mr. Orasanin, as you
11 can see the date that the document bears, can you tell us how many days
12 after that it was that you went to Doboj? Can you remember that?
13 A. We continued on our way the same day.
14 Q. And who met you and where did you first report?
15 A. The rule is that when you arrive, you report to the supervisor,
16 that is, the chief of the SJB, who at the time was Andrija Bjelosevic,
17 and he met us.
18 Q. Did you have a chance to talk to the chief of the SJB?
19 A. Yes. We had a coffee with him and we discussed the situation in
20 his centre. And later we had a meeting with the chief of the crime
21 service and continued with what our task was.
22 Q. Very well. Let me ask you something because of Ms. Korner's
23 objection. We have a correction to make to the transcript. I believe it
24 was line 12 on page 71. Could you please repeat the function of
25 Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic?
Page 21905
1 A. He was the chief of the Doboj CSB.
2 Q. Now I can say that the mistake was that it was recorded that he
3 was the chief of the SJB, but we've corrected it.
4 And what did you discuss with Mr. Bjelosevic? Did you explain to
5 him the purposes of your visit?
6 A. We discussed the situation regarding crime because we were a team
7 that was authorised for crime prevention. Nikola Milanovic, myself, and
8 Ostoja Minic were there from the Crime Service Administration.
9 Q. Just a moment. Did Mr. Bjelosevic brief you about the situation
10 at the CSB in Doboj? And if you can recall, can you tell us what it was
11 that he said?
12 A. As far as I recall that short meeting with the chief, he told us
13 about the situation regarding crime, especially about some murders. He
14 told us that he had some problems with the relationship between the SJB
15 and the CSB, the functions, and there was a similar problem in the
16 territory of other centres, where the problems might have been a little
17 milder than in the east. The SJBs exercised more authority than they
18 should have. And as for the reserve police and the SJB in Doboj, I know
19 that there were some later orders. And I was told to look into what was
20 wrong about the reserve police, even though that wasn't our job, but
21 there were some problems there. And I know that there were some requests
22 made by the ministry. There was a problem, and the reserve police was to
23 be reduced, the numbers were to be reduced, because there were some
24 thousand reserve policemen, and Andrija told us about this. He said that
25 Chief Petrovic, who was the chief of the SJB, wouldn't listen to him.
Page 21906
1 So these were two problems: There were problems with crime and
2 there were problems with the uniformed police, that is, with the reserve
3 police. I know that there was an order later for the numbers to be
4 reduced, but these were requests from the army. And as far as I recall,
5 and I know that there were objections raised later on as well.
6 Q. Did Mr. Bjelosevic speak to you about the organisational problems
7 of the CSB? Did he speak about these problems?
8 A. Well, a man cannot remember everything. But I know roughly what
9 the problems were. To my mind, he couldn't exert any influence on the
10 work of the SJBs that belonged to his centre. He complained about - was
11 it Modrica or Samac or Derventa? - anyway, some stations belonging to his
12 centre. The station chiefs, to my mind, had more power than he did.
13 That would be it.
14 Q. Did he speak about military matters and how these things affected
15 the work of the centre?
16 A. As for the relationship between the police and the military,
17 there were special problems, especially organisational problems, at the
18 centre. I know the minister's orders. And somebody told me when we set
19 off from the MUP - was it Goran Macar? I don't know - anyway, take a look
20 into that. Apart from the crime and the murders and all that, take a
21 look at the relations between the SJBs and the CSB, and that was because
22 of the downsizing order. And the military had objections against the
23 police organising itself in such a massive scale and due to combat
24 readiness, and this is the source of the conflict between the MUP and the
25 army. They wanted some of these men to be re-subordinated to the
Page 21907
1 military. They were arguing that this was a brigade that wasn't
2 really -- that the MUP didn't really need, or anybody else, so that they
3 should be put at the disposal of the military. It wasn't done then, but
4 I know that other teams went there later. And this man Petrovic, the
5 station chief, didn't do it again, again failed to do it.
6 So the stations were really very powerful. But I cannot remember
7 now if Petrovic was -- because we always contacted people from the
8 service and not so much with those who were not from the service. And as
9 far as I know, we didn't really contact Petrovic at all. Yes, we did,
10 actually, when it comes to the Crime Prevention Service.
11 Q. When you say you contacted people from the service, who do you
12 mean?
13 A. I mean the professionals who worked for the service before and
14 who were not newly appointed and for the simple reason that I didn't like
15 them, whoever had appointed them because they weren't professionals.
16 Q. Did Mr. Petrovic belong to this second group of those who were
17 not professionals?
18 A. Yes, that's how I saw him.
19 Q. What happened after the meeting with Mr. Bjelosevic? How did you
20 continue?
21 A. We only had a short meeting with him. And then, in line with our
22 instructions, we had a meeting with the chief of the
23 Crime Prevention Service, whose name is Vojo Blagojevic, I think. And
24 then we inspected some files. We were only interested in serious crimes
25 and whether they were registered, what the procedure -- what procedure
Page 21908
1 was applied, were they entered in the relevant log-book, what activities
2 were taken. And we demanded that operative groups be set up, but they
3 were also short of operatives and inspectors. And we insisted that this
4 be dealt with, that the prosecutor's office must receive all criminal
5 reports, and that this should be tackled. I know that there were some
6 10 or 11 murders, and that was actually the subject of our meeting.
7 Q. Did you invite anybody from the judiciary to that meeting?
8 A. It was our initiative. When the three of us arrived, it was some
9 sort of a rule that first you go to the police and then you have a
10 meeting with them; then you go to the prosecutor's office, if there is
11 one, and the court. And we are always careful to leave the initiative to
12 the prosecutor's office and the court first and then to the police,
13 because they should be the first to act, the prosecutors.
14 And then we had a meeting with the representative of the court
15 whose name was Sinisa Djordjevic. He was a lawyer. I don't know which
16 prosecutor was present. And they especially pointed out the problem of
17 co-operation and, as far as I remember, the presence of the accused, that
18 is, providing security for him, and securing evidence or investigative
19 activities. These are the problems that we discussed. And with that
20 investigative activities, of course, there can be no results or a
21 criminal report.
22 Q. Just tell us about the problem with the accused. I think it
23 wasn't recorded properly. What was the problem with the accused? Could
24 you define it in one sentence.
25 A. Well, I couldn't do it in one sentence because we in the police
Page 21909
1 don't use the term "accused." I said that it was the meeting with the
2 court president. We discussed it together, and they pointed out that
3 they had problems, and these are their problems, with securing the
4 accused for the court.
5 Q. When you say securing, you mean making sure that he's present?
6 A. Yes, that's exactly what I mean, making sure that he's present,
7 that he's brought in, and all other investigative measures.
8 Q. I only intervened because it was recorded differently.
9 Mr. Orasanin, let us focus on something else, if there's time.
10 You said that -- or, rather, you mentioned the files about this most
11 serious crimes. What kind of crimes were those and what about those
12 files?
13 A. Our first -- when we first went there, we spoke to the chief of
14 the Crime Prevention Service and he briefed us about some cases and crime
15 reports that were pending, and -- because we wanted to see whether they
16 were doing anything. We insisted that these be submitted to the
17 prosecutor's office. That was the basic thing. And that something be
18 done to follow them up. We only wanted that they should do what they
19 were supposed to, only what follows from our rules and instructions. And
20 he briefed us on these murders. And as far as I remember there was also
21 some white collar crime and there was also some violent crime, some 10 or
22 11 cases, I think. There were a couple of murders with known
23 perpetrators, and these criminal reports were immediately submitted. But
24 there were also cases with unknown perpetrators. Then we wanted them to
25 draft operative plans and assign these tasks to some people. That was
Page 21910
1 our role.
2 Q. Just a moment. Can you remember the structure of the victims
3 from these most serious crimes, I mean violent crimes and murders?
4 A. I may be slightly off the mark but most victims were Bosniaks.
5 Six, 7, there were a couple of Serbs maybe and one Croatia victim. And
6 when it comes to unknown perpetrators, there were some 9 or 10 or so. I
7 can't remember exactly. And that was key because evidence had to be
8 collected for those cases with unknown perpetrators and then for those
9 files to be submitted to the prosecutor's office.
10 Q. Were there any cases that had been submitted with prosecutor's
11 office before your arrival, and I mean the most serious crimes?
12 A. As far as I remember, there may have been one criminal report
13 against a known perpetrator and maybe some criminal reports against
14 unknown perpetrators.
15 Q. And about those that were pending, you mentioned the setting up
16 of some groups. How did you assign the tasks? That's what I would like
17 to know.
18 A. I must say that we weren't duty-bound to do that. We were just
19 inspecting. It was up to the chief of the Crime Prevention Service
20 because he was the operative. We didn't have our own operatives there;
21 we were from the centre. And he was tasked to set up groups consisting
22 of operatives and forensic technicians to work on the detection of these
23 crimes and their perpetrators. And of course it is a legal obligation
24 for the criminal report to be submitted to the prosecutor's office.
25 Q. On page 77, I believe it's line 16, it was recorded
Page 21911
1 74 operatives; did you mention any such number?
2 A. No, no, no.
3 Q. Let me ask you, did you have any own operatives that could have
4 taken over that job?
5 A. No, no way. 74 operatives? We didn't have as many in the whole
6 administration, I think. We have just seen how many operatives there
7 were in the Crime Prevention and Detection Service. But if we were to
8 take all the operatives from the Banja Luka, Doboj, and Trebinje Centres
9 and put them together, we wouldn't have more than 50, as far as I know.
10 Q. Very well. I just wanted to correct the transcript. I didn't
11 want to dwell on this.
12 Mr. Orasanin, do you know whether these tasks that you assigned
13 to the chief of the administration with the centre were followed up after
14 your departure?
15 A. As far as I know, another team went there later. They visited
16 the Doboj Centre again. And as far as I know, the criminal reports were
17 submitted to the prosecutor's office. Of course, I wouldn't know how
18 much work had to be done to achieve that, but I know that the
19 prosecutor's office did receive criminal reports. This has to do with
20 the instruction on the combatting of crime that we had taken over
21 earlier, so it was an obligation. I'm not saying that we contrived
22 anything. It was just a procedure. And it's a fact that these criminal
23 reports were submitted to the prosecutor's office.
24 Q. Mr. Orasanin, why is it important that a criminal report is
25 submitted to the prosecutor's office even against an unknown perpetrator?
Page 21912
1 A. According to the instructions. And we are also duty-bound to do
2 so. I believe that any police in the world does it that way. When a
3 criminal offence is registered in the log-book, which is kept at the
4 police station, then an on-site investigation is made by the
5 investigative magistrate and a prosecutor, they conduct some activities,
6 and the police and the crime enforcement service are there as assistants,
7 and everybody does that part of the work. In order to shed light on the
8 offence, we must proceed in accordance with the Law on
9 Criminal Procedure. One of them is conducting an on-site investigation,
10 forensic activities, searches, interviews. However, the law was
11 different at the time.
12 The Law on Criminal Procedure had a provision allowing the
13 investigative magistrate to transfer his work to the police, but that
14 only applied in case of lesser crimes. In case of more serious crimes,
15 the investigative magistrate and the prosecutor had to be present. And
16 the police only provided assistance as ordered by the person in charge of
17 the on-site investigation. So the investigative magistrate and the
18 prosecutor play a much more important role than we.
19 Q. I'll ask you one more question before the end. Does this
20 anything have to do with the securing of evidence in relation to reports
21 against unknown perpetrators? Why do you have to report to the
22 prosecutor? Does that have to do with the securing of the evidence?
23 A. Yes, of course. If we know what the investigative actions are
24 and know what special investigative actions are, they cannot be
25 undertaken without an order. That's how it was before. As for how it is
Page 21913
1 now, the prosecutor has more powers, as far as I know. That's how things
2 are at the moment. So the organs of the interior do not do anything
3 without the presence of the prosecutor. And then we did things as we had
4 before the war. We were able to conduct things with verbal approval for
5 minor crimes. And that's why between 1992, and which is important, we
6 were handicapped. If the prosecutor's office or the court were not
7 present, then the hands of the police were tied. You could register a
8 crime and keep the file in a drawer. That was the case in Foca, for
9 example. We gave an order for an on-site investigation; however, there
10 was nobody present at the court.
11 I might have given a long explanation.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I note the time, and
13 I would like to move on to specific cases, which inspectors from the
14 administration looked at in Doboj. That's a new topic, so it might be
15 good for us to break a little earlier today and continue tomorrow.
16 MS. KORNER: Can I try one last time about leading questions. A
17 question such as "does this have anything to do with securing of evidence
18 in relation to reports against unknown perpetrators, why do you have to
19 report to the prosecutor, does that have anything to do with the securing
20 of evidence?" That is a leading question. The proper question was the
21 one sentence in the middle, "why do you have to report to the
22 prosecutor?" Anything else suggests the answer that you want. And of
23 course, the upshot is that it devalues the evidence your own witness
24 gives.
25 JUDGE HALL: So Mr. Cvijetic has again been reminded. Thank you.
Page 21914
1 Mr. Orasanin, we're about to take the adjournment for the day. I
2 am to remind you that having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any
3 communication with counsel from either side until you are released by the
4 Chamber. Moreover, in such conversations as you may have with anybody
5 else, you cannot discuss your testimony. Do you understand what I've
6 just said?
7 So we take the adjournment to resume -- sorry.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understood.
9 [The Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: We take the adjournment until tomorrow morning.
11 Thank you.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day
15 of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.
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