110609ED

Page 22073

1 thereafter it will alternate as counsel have -- in two-week periods.

2 That seems, from the input of all of the interested parties, the most

3 practical way of dealing with this.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honours. That's --

5 that's very helpful.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I do have a comment on that,

7 because Your Honours mentioned that that seems to be the case, from the

8 input of all the interested parties, the most practical way of dealing

9 with that. Your Honours, I'm pretty sure that the Trial Chamber is aware

10 of the fact that we never responded to that mail because, Your Honours,

11 we required first and foremost to consult the Office of Legal Aid before

12 we can provide the answer to the Trial Chamber, and it's been going for

13 some time with the OLAD and the Registry about that and it creates a

14 significant problem from the point of -- from the point of Defence if

15 it's two-weeks' breaks. And I'm not sure because we still don't have a

16 feedback from OLAD about what is their position going to be in respect to

17 our obligations as appointees by the OLAD. So in that respect I ...

18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. -- I would only say, because it is partly

19 confidential, that OLAD has provisionally concretized a view. The

20 problems which these -- running these cases simultaneously create do not

21 admit of easy solutions, and the -- where we are now in terms of the way

22 forward is not chiselled in stone. And one of the reasons why the -- I

23 made the announcement that I did is so that if there are any difficulties

24 which counsel or the parties have which are not yet apparent to the

25 Judges, that no doubt you would make it known and we would see where we

Page 22074

1 go. So inasmuch as a decision had to be made, particularly in terms of

2 the other case, for the ancillary reasons connected with starting a case,

3 that is where we are, and we would see where further discussions and

4 further thoughts place us in the weeks to come.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. I'm sorry, but we were

6 not informed by OLAD that -- of their position, and that is why I brought

7 this to the attention of the Judges.

8 Your Honours, I announced that I have a quick submission and --

9 well, rather quick. It will depend what Your Honours think about that.

10 And I would like to raise a few matters which are a concern, a grave

11 concern, for the Defence.

12 But let me try with the relief that we are seeking, and I hope I

13 will not shock the Trial Chamber with the relief we are seeking.

14 Your Honours, we are asking the adjournment until next Thursday in

15 presentation of our Defence case, and the reasons are the following:

16 First of all, we would like to see the compliance motion because -- the

17 decision of the Trial Chamber on our motion for compliance of the

18 Office of the Prosecutor based on 66(B) because we have -- we think it

19 goes to the matter of utmost importance for the Defence which is the

20 fairness of the proceedings. Therefore, we will be -- I hope we will be

21 in a position do that within a week time. That would be one of the

22 reasons.

23 The second reason, Your Honours, is the fact that in last seven

24 days we received from the Office of the Prosecutor 132 documents signed

25 by Mr. Mico Stanisic which have never ever been disclosed to us before.

Page 22075

1 Now, apparently the Office of the Prosecutor felt that these documents,

2 which were in their possession quite some time, do not meet the

3 requirements of Rule 68 or that are irrelevant in this case, however, as

4 I had a very short time to get myself acquainted with some of the

5 documents, we do not share that view. And, Your Honours, with all due

6 respect, we need definitely some time to analyse these documents and see

7 whether we can introduce some of these documents in our Defence case.

8 On top of it, we just recently made a finding in the electronic

9 disclosure system of a whole batch of CSB Sarajevo --

10 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Mr. Zecevic, when you say 132 documents,

11 should we be thinking of 132 pages or 132 by an average of, say,

12 multiplied by five or three or whatnot; how much paper are we talking

13 about?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it --

15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Ms. Korner, thank you very much, but let me finish.

17 It is -- most of them are one single-page document, so I think we

18 are talking about roughly 132 to 140 pages altogether.

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: The second thing, as I said, is the findings of the

21 batch of documents of CSB Sarajevo. Those documents are -- those

22 documents have never ever appeared before in all our searches of EDS, but

23 that's only understandable knowing the electronic glitches that we have

24 in that system. Now, we are not sure how many documents are there, but

25 so far we've been -- it's a number of documents. And since our next

Page 22076

1 witness is actually talking about the CSB Sarajevo for the relevant

2 period of -- for the indictment, we would need to review that batch as

3 well.

4 The fourth reason is the fact that we intend to shorten our

5 witness list. When I say that, I -- we still have four witnesses left on

6 our original 65 ter list. We intend to drop two of the witnesses from

7 that list. But then there is a number of documents which we wanted to

8 introduce through these witnesses, and we would like to be able to be

9 given the opportunity to consult the remaining two witnesses whether any

10 of the documents came within their knowledge or if they can comment on

11 these documents so we can perhaps introduce them through the remaining

12 two witnesses.

13 And, well, Your Honours, that's basically my submission. I don't

14 want to -- I can go at length about any of these points, but I'm happy to

15 answer any question if the Trial Chamber would have.

16 JUDGE HALL: And to bring you back to where you started, your

17 application is such that the four days, is it, between now and Thursday

18 would put you in a position to deal with these issues; that's what you're

19 saying?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we don't have any witnesses for

21 one day, so Mr. -- our next witness has not yet arrived, so therefore

22 tomorrow was anyhow -- we would have been adjourned. But -- and

23 Monday --

24 JUDGE HALL: -- is a holiday.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: -- is a holiday. Yes.

Page 22077

1 JUDGE HALL: That's why I counted four days.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: So therefore we are asking for two days -- well,

3 yes, two days next week in order to be able to deal with these issues,

4 yes. Tuesday and Wednesday, so we start --

5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, only two days. Two days, really. Thanks.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Thank you.

7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.

8 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, the first thing to be said is, as

9 I explained yesterday, at no stage did the Defence seek your leave not to

10 call the next witness tomorrow. Although, having said that, and as

11 Your Honours know, a witness that should have lasted no more, top whack,

12 than six hours in cross-examination because of his complete and utter

13 inability to answer questions is still here and, if he goes on like this,

14 may well be here tomorrow, so that's one matter.

15 The second matter is this: Your Honours, we do dispute that with

16 the exception of three documents, which we enumerate for the Defence, any

17 of the documents that we gave them addressed to, or signed by, Stanisic

18 as a result of the very, very late 66(B) request are relevant. Can I

19 give you an example, Your Honours, of the one-page documents that have

20 been disclosed because of the request.

21 A document about a request for the registration of a Golf. A

22 document about confirmation of the ownership of the vehicle. A document

23 asking for the costs of reparation.

24 Well, Your Honour, I don't know why Mr. Zecevic is on his feet,

25 because I'm now answering.

Page 22078

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but I specifically said that I

2 can go at length about -- if we are going to talk about the specific

3 documents, I can go at length about that. And I don't think it's fair

4 that Ms. Korner is now using the exact documents addressing my general

5 request. Thank you.

6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, I suppose that the -- and, of course, I

7 don't have it in front of me, but when the Defence would have requested

8 all documents signed by the Accused Stanisic, I assume that the

9 Prosecution would have been entitled to exclude from that, for instance,

10 if the minister had made a requisition for paper clips. So I think that

11 that is where Ms. Korner is.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I say, I'm dealing with the request.

13 And part of it is the desire to go through these documents, which would

14 take, I would imagine, something like half an hour. We've identified

15 three, ourselves, that personally if we'd known about them we would have

16 used, ourselves, but which are relevant and more.

17 Your Honours, the difficulty is this, and Your Honours have made

18 it clear that we're not going to be able to sit full time on this case

19 once the Haradinaj case starts. And although it may well be, and almost

20 certainly will be, the fact that Mr. Stanisic's case has finished before

21 the -- well, it will have finished before the recess, on the face of it,

22 we should be using such court time as we have available to us before the

23 other case starts. That's what we say should be happening.

24 As regards the question of witnesses, we would like to know,

25 please, which witnesses are not going to be called because we've already

Page 22079

1 spent some time preparing for witnesses and doing a lot of unnecessary

2 work on witnesses we're now told won't be coming. So we'd like to be

3 told, please, which are the two witnesses who the Defence are now no

4 longer proposing to call, although I can make a pretty good guess, I

5 think.

6 Your Honours, as regards the adjournment, our view is, as I say,

7 that, A, leave should have been asked not to have the witness here to

8 start tomorrow, and, B, that the case should go on and use the time

9 available.

10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, anything in reply?

11 I seem to recall that we would have cautioned counsel against

12 approaching this matter of number of witnesses and the time of seeing it

13 as a sort of bank from which they could make deposits and withdrawals as

14 need be. You have -- of course, you have an outside number of hours

15 within which to complete your case, but that apart, I'm not sure that

16 your strongest point is that you would -- by -- because you would not be

17 calling two other witnesses, that that is a reason, sufficient reason,

18 to -- or one of the reasons that would support your argument.

19 But anything else in reply?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I discussed with Ms. Korner about the

21 Friday, and it's probably that she missed that I told her that we don't

22 have a witness before coming Tuesday.

23 JUDGE HALL: Forget about Friday. I'm talking about the Tuesday

24 and Wednesday, the two days that we're talking about.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but, Your Honours, I'm not -- I just wanted to

Page 22080

1 inform the Trial Chamber that that is our intention. We still haven't

2 decided but we intend to decide today or over the weekend about the two

3 witnesses that we are going to drop off our list.

4 However, the point, Your Honours, is the following: There is a

5 number of documents that we intended to show to these witnesses. Now,

6 these documents were never shown to the other witnesses and there is --

7 that's one of the reasons why we need the additional time to prepare

8 that, with all the other reasons which I already stated.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry, but either Mr. Zecevic is

10 dropping the witnesses, in which case he has to show the documents, or

11 he's not. And I would ask Your Honours to order that he tells us today

12 who he is not calling.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber appreciates that this is a matter in

15 which it has to rule urgently. But in the circumstances, we would

16 require the witness to be re-called to the stand and we will discuss this

17 during a break and give our ruling in the course of this afternoon's

18 sitting.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while we're on scheduling and

20 housekeeping matters, first of all, could we ask Your Honours to order

21 that the Zupljanin Defence give us a batting order, in other words, the

22 order in which they'll be calling their witnesses, as we appear to be

23 pretty close to the beginning of their case, even closer by the sound of

24 it.

25 The other matter is this: That on - I've forgotten what day it

Page 22081

1 was - thank you, 2nd of June, Mr. Hannis cross-examined Mr. Andan on some

2 photographs of Dusko Malovic's Group and it was agreed that if

3 photographs were taken from the package which weren't relevant, the

4 document -- sorry, which was MFI'd, could have the MFI status lifted.

5 It's P2346. A document has been prepared which only contains the

6 photographs that Andan identified, so could we ask that that document be

7 numbered 20145.01.

8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, sorry, I read out the wrong number,

10 that's why I got confused myself, as ever, with these numbers. We'd like

11 P2346, the 65 ter instead of being 20145 will be 20145.01. And can we

12 have the MFI status lifted.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm terribly sorry, I don't quite understand what

14 Ms. Korner is doing with these numbers. But in any case, I believe P2346

15 should be de-MFI'd after it's uploaded with the photographs that I agreed

16 and we didn't object.

17 However, Your Honours, before that is done, we would like to be

18 given a copy of the -- these -- of this new exhibit that is going to be

19 so we know what we are -- what we are getting admitted into documents.

20 The actual pictures.

21 MS. KORNER: It's actually already been uploaded into e-court, so

22 the pictures are available for Mr. Zecevic to look at them.

23 JUDGE HALL: So the MFI qualification is removed.

24 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

25 JUDGE HALL: So could the usher please escort the witness back to

Page 22083

1 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

2 Q. Right. Now, Mr. Orasanin, yesterday, to answer one single simply

3 question, you took up 24 lines of transcript and didn't answer the

4 question. I would like, in a rather hopeless fashion, I agree, to ask

5 you today, so that we can finish, to answer questions "yes" or "no" or "I

6 don't know," and only if it is absolutely vital to give any further

7 explanation. Is that clear?

8 A. Clear.

9 Q. Now, when we broke off yesterday, we were dealing with matters

10 relating to appointments, and I want to move -- by the minister, I should

11 say. But I want to move to what you said about Bijeljina and that was on

12 the first day of your testimony, at page 21886. And I think you told the

13 Court that you dropped in at Bijeljina; is that correct? Just let me

14 find the right part. Yes. Yes, Mr. Cvijetic said we should move on to

15 Brcko and Bijeljina, and you told him that you hadn't planned to be in

16 Bijeljina but you went to the police station, none of the chiefs were

17 there, "we found the chief of legal affairs who had nothing to do with

18 the operatives."

19 Now, before I spend any time showing you documents from

20 Bijeljina, are you saying that you did any kind of an inspection in

21 Bijeljina or simply that you passed through it?

22 A. I stated that we were going to Brcko, and Bijeljina was on the

23 way. We visited Brcko and on our way back we stopped at Bijeljina. We

24 didn't find Chief Jesuric there, but we found the chief of the

25 administration and legal department, Mr. Grkinic, and we called on him.

Page 22084

1 Q. No, stop there. Simple question: Did you do any kind of

2 inspection or did you just go through it?

3 A. We called at the station and stayed awhile with Grkinic. We had

4 coffee with the chief of the administrative and legal department at the

5 Bijeljina CSB or, actually, the Bijeljina SJB which had been set up.

6 Q. Right. So the answer to the question is no, you did not do any

7 inspection or visit it formally; is that right?

8 A. As soon as you entered the building, by virtue of that fact and

9 by -- as a consequence of spending time with one of the managers, we did

10 some work. But we didn't speak with any operatives, the heads of the

11 police, or the crime prevention service. That's the truth.

12 Q. All right. Well, because we -- I think the simplest thing is to

13 show you a document, please, which is 20161, tab 4B.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could I -- Mr. Orasanin, could I, in the

15 meantime, ask how long that visit took?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An hour.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Now we're back to the matter that you seem to be disputing, that

20 certainly in April and May Mr. Jesuric was chief of the CSB. It's

21 addressed to the security -- sorry, sent by the Security Services Centre

22 Bijeljina and the Public Security Station Bijeljina, Ministry of the

23 Interior, to the minister and deputy minister that -- in the Security

24 Services Centre in Bijeljina. The security station situation has not

25 changed, the situation in Bijeljina is normal, et cetera, et cetera,

Page 22085

1 dated the 22nd of April, 1992.

2 When you went and visited in May, was the situation in Bijeljina

3 normal?

4 A. As far as I know, they were doing some work there but there were

5 some problems.

6 Q. All right. What were the problems that were identified to you by

7 whoever you spoke to there?

8 A. I know but I can't remember now whether it was that period or

9 later because the MUP had moved to Bijeljina, and that's why I'm a bit

10 confused, because there were some groups there. I remember that there

11 was an attack on the police station. If that was a month later or when

12 exactly, that's my confusion with regard to what I know.

13 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Orasanin, I just want to make this clear:

14 Are you disputing that for some period, and I fully understand that there

15 were a number of changes of CSB chiefs in Bijeljina, Mr. Jesuric was

16 chief of the CSB? Or if you don't know one way or the other, then please

17 say, "I do not know."

18 A. No, the confusion yesterday is logical. I do know, after all,

19 how it should be. The organisation of CSBs or the MUP is always parallel

20 to that of the judiciary, namely the courts. Wherever there are district

21 courts, there are centres. And in early May, I said yesterday that I had

22 documents with the organisation of district courts, where district courts

23 and prosecutor's offices are set up in Banja Luka, Doboj, Bijeljina,

24 Sarajevo, and Trebinje, and the organisation of CSBs was parallel. There

25 was a CSB in Bijeljina.

Page 22086

1 I was carrying some documents and those were instructions of the

2 Presidency and instructions on the setting up of courts and prosecutor's

3 offices. We carried them with us to the field and we distributed them to

4 police stations for them to have. It was early May. I have those

5 documents even now somewhere. I can find them. And that's the dilemma.

6 And there certainly was a CSB in Bijeljina.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. Because -- because that was the organisation.

9 Q. All right. Stop. Honestly, I really think you're not listening

10 to the question. The question was: Do you dispute - I hope that's clear

11 in translation - that Mr. Jesuric, for a period, was chief of the CSB in

12 Bijeljina? That's the only question.

13 A. He was chief of the Bijeljina SJB. And when the centre was set

14 up, well, it's logical, but I can't remember now because they were in the

15 same building.

16 Q. All right. So -- thank you.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, in that case, as this is suddenly,

18 after two years of trial, become an issue, I'm going to ask that this

19 document now be marked and admitted as evidence on the face of this

20 document that Mr. Jesuric was chief of the CSB.

21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic? Mr. Cvijetic?

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have our usual

23 objection to this document and to the introduction of documents at this

24 stage of cross-examination. I wish to reiterate that it's still our

25 position that this document cannot be tendered now. I have already said

Page 22087

1 so yesterday when I referred to the standards set in the Prlic case.

2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I've made it clear: Nobody could

3 have anticipated that suddenly, for no good reason that I can see, this

4 witness has chosen to dispute that Mr. Jesuric was chief of the CSB.

5 And, Your Honour, it's obviously important that if we have documents that

6 have -- otherwise really are of no relevance whatsoever, that show that

7 he was, we should be allowed to enter them into evidence at this stage.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, could you remind me the tab number,

9 please?

10 MS. KORNER: It's tab 4B. Yes, 4B.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may just comment, Your Honours, I'm sorry that

12 I'm interrupting, but this sounds to me like a document testing the

13 credibility of the witness. If that is the purpose of this document,

14 then we say we don't have a problem admitting this document. But if this

15 document is to show something else, Ms. Korner produced -- or the Office

16 of the Prosecutor, Your Honours, at the very beginning of the case,

17 produced the huge maps explaining the structure of the MUP, so they knew

18 that they have to prove that these persons were holding those positions,

19 so, therefore, saying that they were not aware that this might be an

20 issue in the case is, with all due respect, not true, actually.

21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it's perfectly true because

22 admitted into evidence are pretty pictures of the CSB with those pretty

23 men which say under it, if it I can just get my copy, and nobody has ever

24 suggested to us it is the obligation of the Defence, when they know that

25 we're putting documents in as truth of their contents, if they dispute

Page 22088

1 it, to say so. This document --

2 JUDGE HALL: Well, Ms. Korner, against that background, and the

3 document you referred to being already in evidence, isn't it -- I don't

4 understand the present exchange between yourself and the witness on the

5 stand to make that a fact in issue, and, therefore, wouldn't it be --

6 isn't the admission of this limited to his credibility and therefore --

7 MS. KORNER: Well, I think I'm going mad actually slightly. This

8 whole thing has been reversed. We have proved our case. It is the

9 obligation of the Defence to put the case. If it is the Defence case

10 that they challenge that Mr. Jesuric, for a short period of time -- and

11 you'll see, Your Honours, if you look at the diagram, that there were

12 huge numbers of changes. It's P881.

13 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I know I tend to have the -- I have a

14 tendency to be elliptical in my speech, but basically I'm agreeing with

15 you.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, but I think it's incumbent upon

17 the Defence to make it clear that is not their case, that Mr. Jesuric was

18 not at some stage chief of the CSB.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, we never said so. We never said

20 so. We never said that we are challenging that fact. It concerns the

21 fresh evidence that Ms. Korner wants to introduce through this witness.

22 We say she can't do that; she has to explain according to the standard

23 which this Trial Chamber adopted. If she wants to introduce the new

24 evidence, she has to provide an explanation. And that is the point. But

25 if --

Page 22089

1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, need we confuse ourselves by going down

2 that road? If in fact there is no issue as to whether Mr. Jesuric was

3 chief of CSB security, and the only point is what has arisen in

4 cross-examination out of the mouth of this witness, [indiscernible] even

5 a question of credibility. So need we exercise ourselves about --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: But that is precisely what I said, Your Honours. I

7 said if it goes for the credibility of the witness, we do not object.

8 Now, but then Ms. Korner went further on that. That's my point.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE HALL: So the document is admitted and we move on.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2352, Your Honours.

12 MS. KORNER: Right.

13 Q. Brcko, Mr. Orasanin. So again you say Brcko, according to you at

14 page 21888, the crime service wasn't organised, that -- well, actually,

15 you don't say much except you had a flat tyre. Right.

16 MS. KORNER: Just so that we don't have any discussion about

17 Brcko, can we have a look, please, at 10B, which is 20166, please.

18 Q. Do you agree that's a list of salaries for the Brcko Police in

19 the period from the 1st of May to 31st of May?

20 A. Yes. This is the same case as in the stations we looked at

21 previously.

22 MS. KORNER: Last page in each, please.

23 Q. Apparently Brcko in May had some 56 police officers working

24 there, so, would you agree, fully functioning police station?

25 A. I was speaking about this, perhaps I can explain additionally,

Page 22090

1 yesterday and the day before about these payrolls. When we went out in

2 the field, to my mind this was not the real situation. I think that some

3 names are fictitious. This should be examined in detail. I know some

4 police officers who came to see me and they had been in Belgrade for

5 several months and then they were put on the list as of early April and

6 they had only arrived in July. It isn't really the payrolls that

7 [indiscernible] to me when I went to the stations but only the lists in

8 accordance with the rule book on internal organisation.

9 I may not be competent to speak about this, but we spoke about a

10 case yesterday. Two police officers who had arrived later but were

11 retroactively put on the list as being there since early April but they

12 had only come in May or July respectively. One's name is

13 Branko Glamocic [phoen] and the other was Rajko something. And there

14 were dozens of such cases.

15 In Brcko I didn't see these people. I didn't see any in Skelani

16 either. To my mind, this is all fictitious. We were the first team that

17 went to the field for the MUP -- or from the MUP.

18 Q. Tell us exactly how long you carried out your, in inverted

19 commas, visit in Brcko, would you, Mr. Orasanin?

20 A. I must be honest because I'm such a man. I said that our visits

21 were such that we wanted to do something and make a snap-shot of the

22 situation, see how people worked there. And we wanted them to see us

23 because we were the first who had arrived there. And we found a chaotic

24 situation. We were in Brcko for something over an hour. We went to the

25 police station, found the duty officer, and I remember this man

Page 22091

1 Gavrilovic, I think that his first name is Pero, he came to meet us.

2 Q. No -- stop. You told us all this. I don't want to hear it

3 again, please. You were there for one hour. Right. You don't accept

4 the evidence of the payrolls. Have a look at one other document, then,

5 please.

6 MS. KORNER: Which is, sorry, 13A, which is ... oh, it's a

7 Defence document, 1D547.

8 Q. This is from Brcko, minutes of the meeting of the specialist

9 board of the Serb SJB held on the 2nd of June.

10 MS. KORNER: If we go, please, to the last page in both B/C/S and

11 English.

12 Q. Recognise the names of Mr. Veselic and Mr. Lugonjic?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. KORNER: If we go, please, to the third page in English and

16 it's the fourth page in B/C/S, please.

17 Q. The earlier part deals with the jobs that would be done by the

18 various officials.

19 "Considering the fact that policemen at this moment are engaged

20 in providing physical security for working organisations and other vital

21 facilities on the territory of the municipality, Brcko SJB had agreed

22 with the War Presidency to have our forces withdrawn. In accordance with

23 this agreement, the number of personnel at the police station will be

24 increased and consequently the normal functioning of the SJB will be

25 ensured, meaning shift patrols in the field. Communication with

Page 22092

1 policemen through USW devices, all available radio equipment will be

2 checked and used."

3 Next heading, "Crime." "The affairs and task of the field of

4 crime have been functioning from the very division, i.e., the

5 establishing of the Brcko Serb SJB."

6 All right. Do you accept that you could be wrong in the

7 conclusion you drew in your brief one-hour visit to Brcko about the

8 functioning of Brcko SJB during the second half of May or thereabouts?

9 A. I can say that during that hour we spent there we mostly dealt

10 with the jobs of the uniformed police, and I was there to see about crime

11 enforcement. I met Gavrilovic, who was in charge of crime enforcement.

12 And these are my duties with regard to the crime prevention service.

13 That's why I'm not familiar with the jobs of the uniformed police. And

14 we didn't have time there because we were chased away by sniper fire.

15 That's the essence. We didn't really work there, that's why it was such

16 a short visit.

17 Q. Thank you. That will do. All right.

18 Now I want to deal with the -- your evidence about the fact that

19 various stations did not belong to -- were not allocated to any CSBs. We

20 dealt already with what you had to say about Zvornik.

21 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look, please, at a document --

22 Now, Your Honours, this has not been translated because it's one

23 of these financial documents, but we weren't aware that there was going

24 to be this kind of evidence. So it will have to come up in B/C/S only,

25 and obviously if I wanted to have it admitted as an exhibit, we'd have to

Page 22093

1 get a translation. But it's a very simple point I want to make.

2 Could we have, please, on the screen the document which is at

3 tab 7.1, which has been given the number 20168.

4 Q. Now, is that a document dated the 7th of May, 1992, and does it

5 come from what is said to be the CSB Trebinje?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And does that show the --

8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a moment,

9 please. From the witness's testimony so far, we have been able to

10 conclude that while he was affiliated with the Ministry of the Interior,

11 he did not carry out any inspections in Trebinje in the Security Services

12 Centre there. So I suppose he cannot speak to the contents of the

13 document because he probably never saw the document before nor he

14 inspected the situation there, and he also did not testify -- he did not

15 tell us anything about that particular Security Services Centre.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this has got nothing to do with any

17 inspections that he did. This is to do with whether what he called the

18 eastern municipalities or SJBs were affiliated to any CSBs, and that's

19 the matter I'm dealing with. I'm showing him this document, and I'm

20 going to ask him if he still wants to adhere to the evidence he gave

21 about it.

22 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 Q. Now, because we haven't got a translation, could you just read

25 out, if you can, and if you can't I'll give you a hard copy, what the --

Page 22094

1 after we can -- what the first line says after the date. Could you read

2 it out in your language. Perhaps we could highlight that part for him if

3 he is having difficulty. What does that say, please? Read it out.

4 A. "Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo."

6 Q. Then could you read, please, the next few lines.

7 A. "Here enclosed please find lists of employees who are present at

8 the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina and who are employed in public security stations of the

10 Security Services Centre in Trebinje."

11 Q. Thank you. Right. Can we just deal, please, then, with -- well,

12 perhaps we can deal fairly quickly with which stations did belong to it.

13 What's the first station there? Just read it out, please.

14 A. Srecko, Djeric.

15 Q. Not the name, the name of the station.

16 A. Trebinje. Trebinje.

17 MS. KORNER: Can we go on, please, to page 3.

18 Q. What's the station at the top there?

19 A. This is the Gacko Public Security Station.

20 Q. Next one.

21 A. Ljubinje SJB.

22 Q. One below.

23 A. Bileca SJB.

24 MS. KORNER: Well, there's so many of them. Perhaps if we just

25 go to page 6 to identify the one I want to identify. Page 6, please.

Page 22095

1 Q. What is that one in the middle?

2 A. Visegrad SJB.

3 Q. Wasn't that one of the SJBs you said didn't belong to any CSB?

4 A. When I spoke about my visit to Visegrad, Foca, Rudo, I said that

5 they were left in the cold, that they had not received any assistance.

6 We were the only ones who came. It was an obligation of the CSB to help

7 those stations, but we were the only ones who arrived from the Ministry

8 of the Interior to get stock of their situation. This is what we covered

9 in our report. That's what I meant when I said that they were not

10 covered, that in organisational terms they were left out in the cold.

11 As for the legality of the whole thing, I would say that you can

12 put anything on paper. But there, on the ground, they all complained

13 that nobody had visited them before September 1992 when we arrived in the

14 area.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. I apologise, I am -- I did not deal with organisation. We

17 performed our duties and we realised that there were some negative things

18 at stake in terms of the operation of the SJB in Trebinje because nobody

19 had arrived to visit them for five or six months before we arrived,

20 although it was their duty to do that.

21 Q. Well, the CSB Trebinje had enough, if you like - what's the word

22 you used? - oversight over them or - sorry, trying to find the word you

23 used - assistance to at least get their payment organised, hadn't it?

24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours. How

25 is the witness supposed to know that? What is the foundation on which

Page 22096

1 Ms. Korner concludes that there were enough operatives, there were enough

2 employees who could have carried out that task?

3 MS. KORNER: It's not -- Mr. Cvijetic is picking up problems from

4 Mr. Orasanin. That's not the question I asked. The question I put to

5 Mr. Orasanin is that they had enough involvement to arrange for the

6 payment, judging by this document.

7 Q. Would you agree with that, Mr. Orasanin?

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours --

9 MS. KORNER: No, this is Mr. Cvijetic's witness. We cannot have

10 people bobbing up and down like this.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand fully, but there is a problem

12 obviously with the translation because Mr. Cvijetic got obviously the

13 different question. The point, I'm trying to assist. If don't want me

14 to assist, I will not. And I'm not asking to say anything.

15 The point of matter is, Your Honours, Ms. Korner is basing her

16 document on the document she can't read, and this document doesn't have

17 anything to do with the payments. That's the point.

18 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I had Mr. Orasanin read out the beginning of

19 the document so we could see what it was about.

20 "... please find lists of employees who are present at the

21 Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic ... who are employed in

22 public security stations of the Security Services Centre in Trebinje."

23 Yes, I take the point. It's not exactly a financial document.

24 It comes from a financial thing but it's not exactly. I'm told -- just a

25 moment.

Page 22097

1 Can we go to the -- sorry, can we go to the very end of the

2 document, I think that may be why I thought they were payment. To do

3 with -- ah, that's right. Your Honours, I'm sorry, I'd forgotten that

4 attached to the end of the document.

5 Q. Do you agree that's a payment slip of some kind, Mr. Orasanin?

6 A. This is an order issued to the accounting department. It may be

7 in respect of daily allowances, per diems, or things like that.

8 Q. All right. Well, isn't that the CSB sending it up to the

9 headquarters to have it dealt with?

10 MS. KORNER: Can we go on to the next document, please. Or was

11 that the last one? Yes, sorry, that was the last. Right. Can we go to,

12 in the document, please, it's the -- no, can we go to page 10, please, in

13 the document. 10th page. Yes.

14 Q. More payment documents, would you agree? Do you see there --

15 JUDGE HALL: I'm sorry to interrupt. We are advised by the

16 Court Officer that for technical reasons we must take the break now for a

17 half hour.

18 MS. KORNER: Right. Can I just finish this.

19 Q. Do you see there the payment being claimed, Mr. Orasanin, for the

20 Konjic SJB, the Visegrad SJB, and the SJB Foca?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. KORNER: Does Mr. Zecevic now accept that this is a claim for

23 payment? Does Mr. Cvijetic now accept that?

24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see a link

25 with the witness's statement as to what he noticed in those SJBs. He

Page 22098

1 didn't talk about money, whether there was a lack of money. He only

2 spoke about the fact that CSB Trebinje, Trebinje staff never toured any

3 of the stations and that they were left or that -- at least that they

4 felt left out in the cold. And this is also in his report.

5 JUDGE HALL: We'll take the break.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, if we have time at the end of today, I

10 wonder if we could return to the question of timing all over as regards

11 to the Zupljanin case. And I've been discussing matters with Mr. Krgovic

12 and I think it may assist all of us if at least we can raise the

13 situation with Your Honours.

14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.

15 While the witness is on his way back to the stand, we have

16 considered Mr. Zecevic's application for a delay for the reasons that he

17 advanced. And bearing in mind that -- the witness that he has scheduled,

18 that he would -- should, in all fairness, be allowed some time to deal

19 with what may be new documents with which he has to consider, but bearing

20 also in mind the fact that we are sitting afternoons next week and we are

21 not scheduled to sit tomorrow, Monday being a holiday, so we would resume

22 on Wednesday afternoon. We think that he should be allowed -- he may be

23 allowed a day, which is Tuesday, and we would pick up on Wednesday with

24 this matter.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 22099

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, what about letting us know

3 whether -- who the witnesses are that he's going to drop? Are

4 Your Honours going to give him a time on that one too?

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, echoing Ms. Korner's request, it would

7 be helpful, if you're so inclined, if you could do that as soon as you're

8 able to. It would assist all of us.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: As I said, Your Honours, I will over the weekend

10 and we will inform the Trial Chamber and the parties about our decision

11 on Monday. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... on Monday.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Tuesday, because Monday's not a working day.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Mr. Orasanin, in the course of your evidence --

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, may I be excused because I

17 need to inform the VWS --

18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. In the course of your evidence on Monday, you told the Court that

22 the places that you visited, and this is at page 21901, like Visegrad and

23 Foca, Brcko, Rudo, Cajnice, the prosecutor's office wasn't functioning at

24 all and neither was the court. I'd like you to have a look, please, at

25 the prosecutor's log-book for Brcko. And you were visiting Brcko in

Page 22100

1 May of 1992; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. KORNER: It's tab 1A and it's 65 ter 1537. Could it be -- I

4 think it's easier if he has the printed-out copy. And, yes, it's

5 0615-2066. Page 8 in B/C/S. We've only got it in B/C/S; we don't have a

6 translation.

7 Q. Not terribly easy to see either on the screen or in the printed

8 copy, but does that show a list of cases for May or partway through May?

9 I don't know whether we can ... dates are not terribly easy --

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 Q. Just have a quick look through it, Mr. Orasanin, and just confirm

12 that that shows cases being listed with dates in May, and I think you'll

13 find it goes on over a number of pages. If we look at number --

14 MS. KORNER: Can we ... let's start with -- sorry, can we go back

15 to page 4. I think that's the easiest. I think Your Honours will find

16 it easier to find the dates. And can we have page 4 up on the screen.

17 At the top you'll find 206 -- 0615-2062.

18 Q. Now, I should shown -- I should have given this to you last

19 night.

20 Can you -- all I'm asking you to do is have a quick look through,

21 and can you confirm, Mr. Orasanin, that it appears that the prosecutor's

22 office was, in fact, working through this period? That's all I'm asking

23 you to do.

24 Mr. Orasanin, I know that it's -- can you confirm that it does

25 appear that the prosecutor's office was actually working? And, indeed,

Page 22101

1 some of the clearest dates we can see are those in April, the rest, I'm

2 afraid, are not so clear.

3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, just a moment.

4 Here you can see that the year is 1993, that the prosecutor's office

5 functioned in 1993, as far as I can tell.

6 MS. KORNER: Actually, no. I know it's -- I appreciate it's very

7 difficult to see on the screen, but if you look at the page we're looking

8 at, it's clearly 1992. Look at the continuation. Look at the third

9 column, please. It's much, much clearer.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's when documents were

11 received. We heard testimonies to the effect that offices were open to

12 receive documents. But if you look further in the right-hand side

13 columns, you will see that the prosecutor's office actually started

14 looking into cases and acting upon them only in 1993, at least this is

15 what I can tell from the excerpt that is on the screen now.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, we've heard evidence about this

17 in any event. I'm just, as I say, putting this document to Mr. Orasanin

18 to see whether or not he wishes to change his assertion. If he doesn't,

19 that's it.

20 Q. Mr. Orasanin, do you wish to change your assertion that the

21 prosecutor's offices were not working?

22 Mr. Orasanin?

23 A. What I was saying about my report and what is contained in my

24 report, this is what I told you about the municipalities of Foca, Rudo,

25 Cajnice, and Visegrad. This is what we put in our report. We said that

Page 22102

1 the prosecutor's office and the court were not organised. Our order to

2 them was to prepare all the criminal reports, and they told us that all

3 the doors were locked. In those municipalities, I'm 99 per cent sure

4 that the prosecutor's offices and the courts did not function and --

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stop, stop, stop,

6 Mr. Orasanin, please. I asked -- I agree, but you threw in Brcko, and

7 I'm merely asking you whether you now wish to change your classification

8 of Brcko as one where the prosecutor's office was not working?

9 A. When we were there on the 15th of May, no investigations were

10 going on by the prosecutor's office or the court. The police could not

11 carry out investigations because it is the prosecutor's office and the

12 court that order the police to carry out investigations, hence the

13 problem. That's why I concluded that they were not functioning.

14 Pursuant to the Law on Criminal Procedure, the police cannot carry out

15 any investigations until the moment the investigative judge and the

16 prosecutor 's office issue their order to the crime investigating police.

17 That's why I concluded that they were not operational.

18 Q. All right. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, please. Who told you

19 in Brcko in your one-hour's visit that the prosecutor's office was not

20 working?

21 A. We spent an hour talking to Mr. Gavrilovic, Pero Gavrilovic; he

22 was in charge of national security and the crime prevention service, as

23 far as I can remember, and that was also within our purview. And later

24 on I read some instructions pursuant to which he became the head of the

25 crime prevention services. When we were there, there was a gap, a vacuum

Page 22103

1 of sorts. Later on he was appointed the head of the crime prevention

2 services, as far as I can remember.

3 Q. Honest, Mr. Orasanin, I simply asked you: Who told you this?

4 The answer was Mr. Gavrilovic. Full stop. Not what happened to him then

5 or afterwards.

6 Now, I simply want to ask you whether you wish to change your

7 opinion, having seen that there was a prosecutor's office log-book being

8 kept for cases at that time in respect of Brcko. Leave aside all the

9 other places you mentioned.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just used a

11 magnifying-glass to look at this log-book. And despite my best wishes, I

12 simply cannot identify the dates that Ms. Korner has just referred to.

13 And it is a big question whether the witness can answer Ms. Korner's

14 questions the way they are put. The witness is testifying about the

15 facts, about the situation that he found and the messages that he was

16 conveyed, and I believe that his evidence should be restricted only to

17 that, what he saw and what he was told and what problems he encountered.

18 That's the kind of problems that he reported and conveyed. He was not in

19 the prosecutor's office to see whether this is a log-book for 1992 and so

20 on and so forth. I believe that we cannot go any further with this

21 witness when it comes to interpreting the contents of this document.

22 MS. KORNER: All right. Yes --

23 JUDGE HALL: Whereas you're perfectly correct, Mr. Cvijetic, I

24 suppose, in fairness to the witness, if Ms. Korner at the appropriate

25 time wishes to remind the Chamber of apparent contradictions, she is

Page 22104

1 allowing him the opportunity to speak to it. How far she wishes to go

2 with this is a matter for her, but that's the purpose. But on principle,

3 of course, it appears to me that you're correct.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, as I've made it clear the Defence

5 on a number of occasions, I'm obliged to put my case to the witness. And

6 our case is that his assertions over this are wrong.

7 Your Honours, the best thing I can do is for the moment ask that

8 the document be marked MFI because I think it's right that without

9 getting -- there's no translation for it, in any event, and without

10 getting better copies and a translation, but just so that we have it

11 marked and then, if I may, I'd make the application to put it in. I know

12 there's already been evidence about it, in any event, from the witness

13 who came to talk about the prosecutor's log-books.

14 JUDGE HALL: Marked, pending translation.

15 MS. KORNER: Pending translation and a full application to put it

16 in, but just marking it for the moment so we know what we're talking

17 about.

18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I

19 don't see any grounds to introduce anything through this witness. Not

20 even to mark it for identification. Who is going to interpret the

21 document for us once this witness is gone?

22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic --

23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] One more thing, Your Honours, if I

24 may. On the list of the Prosecutor's witnesses when the Prosecutor

25 presented its case, there were witnesses who could have testified about

Page 22105

1 this document but they were withdrawn. How can we now interpret this

2 document through this witness? How can we tender it and admit it if the

3 witness that we are dealing with now is unable to say anything about it?

4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, may I suggest you hold your fire

5 until -- Ms. Korner's indicated she wants it marked pending both the

6 translation and the full application to put it in. So may I suggest you

7 hold your fire until she makes her full application. In the meantime, I

8 suppose, so it doesn't get lost, we mark it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2353, marked for identification,

10 Your Honours.

11 MS. KORNER:

12 Q. Now, let's deal with what you say about if no prosecutor's office

13 was working, the police couldn't investigate. Are you asserting that

14 once the police had put in a preliminary criminal report to the

15 prosecutor's office they could do no more and indeed - well, let's deal

16 with that one first, could do no more to investigate?

17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the first

18 time I hear of a preliminary criminal report. I have no idea what that

19 might be. There is no such thing under our law.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. Once the police had put in the criminal report, which is the

22 first stage, to the prosecutor's office, is it your assertion that the

23 police were prohibited from doing any further investigation until

24 directed by the prosecutor?

25 A. No. The police is duty-bound to collect information necessary to

Page 22106

1 shed light on the criminal offence. But I said that the police cannot

2 work without the approval of a judge and a prosecutor's office. I'm

3 referring to investigative activities for which approval is required.

4 But the police are duty-bound to collect information necessary to

5 identify the perpetrator of a crime. But how do we do that without an

6 on-site investigation? And the rule is that a good on-site investigation

7 accounts for 50 per cent of the success in finding the perpetrator.

8 That's what I'm talking about.

9 Q. That may or may not be the case, but, as I understand it, you do

10 accept the police are duty-bound to carry on investigating to the extent

11 that they can, if you like, without a prosecutor directing them.

12 A. I accept. But when we speak about serious crimes, murder and

13 others, then special activities must be carried out and an on-site

14 investigation must be performed. I think it was Article 154 of the

15 Law on Criminal Procedure that the investigative magistrate orders the

16 carrying out of investigative activities. That was a provision of the

17 law. It has been changed meanwhile. So the investigative magistrate and

18 the prosecutor could entrust these activities formerly but can no longer

19 do so.

20 Q. Right. And indeed you yourself said that when you saw the cases

21 in Doboj where there were unknown perpetrators in murder cases, you

22 yourself said that there had to be a special force put together to

23 investigate these cases, didn't you?

24 A. No, I said that operative groups must be set up. And the events

25 in Doboj that I saw in the log-book, there was also a register of on-site

Page 22107

1 investigations. Members of the MUP carried out on-site investigations.

2 Which is -- these are not mandatory for all crimes, but they are in case

3 of serious crimes such as murder and some others.

4 Whether the police got an approval from the investigative

5 magistrate to go on site, I don't know, because it's the investigative

6 magistrate who is in charge of these activities and the police only

7 provides assistance. And here we saw that the on-site investigations

8 were conducted and then we tasked our operatives to examine that. I may

9 not be fully clear, but that's how we acted then. Nowadays, the crime

10 detection service has smaller -- hasn't so a wide authority as before the

11 war.

12 Q. Don't worry about nowadays or historical days. Right. Thank

13 you.

14 Now let's deal with these Doboj -- that was the one inspection

15 that you concede was an inspection. Firstly, did you notify Doboj CSB

16 and Doboj SJB in advance that you were coming to do the inspection? And

17 that just requires "yes" or "no."

18 A. That's a rule, to send a dispatch and information saying that the

19 inspectors are coming. But if there are no communication lines ...

20 Q. I'm sorry, did you or didn't you? Or can't you remember? "Yes,"

21 "no," or "I can't remember"?

22 A. I don't know. I don't remember. Maybe Nikola Milanovic did that

23 because he wrote the -- these decisions.

24 Q. You told the police in -- oh, police. You told the OTP in

25 interview, in fact, on the topic of communications - and this is at

Page 22108

1 page 51 of your interview - that -- you were -- in fact, you were being

2 asked about reports, and you said that -- sorry, this is the bottom of

3 page 50, you were being asked in April, May, up to, I don't know,

4 September, let's say, about CSB sending reports, there were such

5 obligations, but now whether they had technical possibilities to do so, I

6 doubt it. They from Doboj could not send dispatch or information over

7 here, but the centre should have -- was supposed to have that. You have

8 this dispatch, and you were referring to -- went by courier.

9 "Q. That's what I'm actually saying, that even though the

10 communication was bad, there would always be possibility to send

11 something through messenger, through a courier."

12 And you said:

13 "Yes, I suppose, during the first three months it was difficult,

14 but traffic connections were cut, let alone telecommunication lines had

15 not been established yet."

16 So do you agree that couriers could be used even if telephone

17 lines or radios were not working?

18 A. Well, what I know, I was saying in the context of the

19 impossibility to travel by road. It wasn't possible to go there until

20 early July. I'm unfamiliar with these facts. A courier must also travel

21 by road. Only if they fly in a helicopter, then not.

22 Q. All right. Well, let's deal with the content of your visit to

23 Doboj.

24 MS. KORNER: Can we go into private session for a moment.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

Page 22110

1 and the first thing, apparently, you did was have a meeting with the

2 Doboj CSB and SJB public security operatives; is that right?

3 A. As far as I remember, it was on the 25th. That's when we were in

4 Doboj.

5 Q. Well, that's what you say -- I know you say that, but did

6 Mr. Minic do a meeting, an inspection, at Doboj with you?

7 A. There was Mr. Minic and Nikola Milanovic too.

8 Q. Absolutely. And it's hardly likely that he did a separate visit

9 before that, is it? Indeed, well ...

10 A. Well, as far as I remember, he went there on a number of

11 occasions. There were mixed teams; uniformed police and operatives.

12 Q. Right. Well, let's see if this jogs your memory, shall we? You

13 say you were there for two days, and this visit, as recorded, was two

14 days. The following day --

15 MS. KORNER: Can we go to the next page, please.

16 Q. There was this meeting at the Dom Milicije in Doboj; do you

17 remember that?

18 A. As far as I remember, one meeting was held at the Dom Milicij e.

19 It was a large meeting. But I seem to remember that Cedo Tosic was

20 there, or somebody from the uniformed police.

21 Q. Well, what I want to ask you about is, was a discussion in the

22 meeting that you were at about the monitoring of genocide and war crimes

23 against the Serbian people, which you will see --

24 MS. KORNER: Can we move the bottom up slightly, the page,

25 because it's quite difficult to see in B/C/S. Right. Thank you.

Page 22111

1 Q. Was there such discussion?

2 A. I don't remember attending the meeting. Somebody was there, but

3 I think it was Cedo Tosic, one of these --

4 Q. Sorry, are you saying that Mr. Minic, Mr. Milanovic, and

5 Mr. Tosic went to Doboj on the 14th and the 15th for two days and then

6 you and Mr. Minic and Milanovic went back on the 24th? What would be the

7 point of that? Well, firstly, is that what you're saying?

8 A. Well, I don't remember attending the meeting at the Dom Milicije.

9 I know that there was a meeting there, it was a large meeting, but I

10 wasn't there.

11 Q. Well, where were you? Where were you?

12 A. There was a regional meeting there but, as far as I remember,

13 another team went. They were representatives of the SJBs from the

14 region, and it was a mixed team, as far as I know. That's what I know,

15 what I remember. And that's what I say in my first -- said in my first

16 statement. There was a question about the number and about someone

17 coming from Derventa and Brod and such. The investigator asked me about

18 it. But I'm sure I wasn't at that meeting. And there was discussion

19 about war crimes.

20 Q. Look. I'm sorry, Mr. Orasanin, I don't follow, now, what you're

21 saying. You, Minic, Milanovic go off to Doboj to conduct what you say

22 was really the only proper inspection that you did in August. Are you

23 now saying that this record of this meeting at the Dom Milicije is a

24 completely separate visit?

25 A. I don't remember that we were at this meeting where the

Page 22112

1 representatives of the SJBs of the region were present.

2 Q. Look. Just stop --

3 A. And that was at the Dom Milicije.

4 Q. The record says this is a "meeting at the Dom Milicije in Doboj

5 with the operative personnel on the territory of the Doboj CSB." It is a

6 record, I can assure you -- well, right, never mind. I'll rephrase that

7 question.

8 Were you or were you not present at this meeting?

9 A. I remember that I attended only the meeting in the Doboj building

10 and we only spent the night at the Dom Milicije. It's possible that I

11 know some of these things when we went to Banja Luka.

12 Q. All right. Because, you see, you told us, when you were giving

13 your evidence, that you had a short meeting with Mr. Bjelosevic.

14 MS. KORNER: Can we just can through this to the next page,

15 please.

16 Q. What was discussed there also was working and co-operating with

17 the prosecutor's offices and courts in Doboj. Was there discussion at

18 the meeting that you attended of co-operation with the prosecutor's

19 office?

20 A. I remember that we visited Doboj. But that we initiated a

21 meeting? We spoke to the president of the higher court there whose name

22 was Sinisa, what was his last name? He's an attorney now. That was our

23 initiative, and that's what I spoke about. And the prosecutor and they

24 were presenting -- oh, now I remember the name: Sinisa Djordjevic. They

25 were speaking about making sure that the accused is present at the

Page 22113

1 proceedings. But whether he was present ... there may be some confusion,

2 but I remember this: Sinisa Djordjevic was a president of the higher

3 court or prosecutor --

4 Q. Do you know, honestly, Mr. Orasanin, this is a discussion not

5 with members of the prosecutor's office or whatever, but whether there

6 was discussion at the police meeting about co-operation with the

7 prosecutor's office. Now, do you recall that happening?

8 A. Whenever we have a meeting, we make a snap-shot of the situation

9 and discuss the co-operation between the police and the courts. This is

10 our basic task. The job wouldn't be done if we hadn't reviewed these

11 possibilities. It would have only been a half success. I remember what

12 it says here, that the man spoke about the problems of the court and the

13 prosecutor's office --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, thank you,

15 Mr. Orasanin. Thank you. I'm suggesting to you in the clearest possible

16 terms, Mr. Orasanin, that that visit to Doboj was with you, Milanovic,

17 Minic, Tosic, and yourself, the four of you went there. There weren't

18 two visits to Doboj, there was just the one visit. And you were present

19 at this meeting, weren't you?

20 A. No, no. You mentioned Tosic and our presence. I'm

21 1.000 per cent sure that we weren't there. Cedo Tosic never went with

22 me. Actually, later, once we had seen that the problems were those of

23 the uniformed police, we weren't authorised to do the work of the

24 uniformed police because the problems were greater. And we said, Let's

25 make a snap-shot of this and then we'll return to Bijeljina and then --

Page 22114

1 Q. No. Leave Bijeljina, please, alone. We're talking about your

2 full inspection of Doboj. And it was -- I'm sorry, it was either

3 Cedomir Tosic or Radenko Vujicic.

4 A. Radenko Vujicic, never. I state that with full responsibility.

5 We're wasting time. I remember it as if it had been yesterday. I allow

6 for the possibility of some confusion though.

7 You mentioned Ostoja Minic. When there were investigations in

8 2005, I spoke to him about some things and I was trying to convince him

9 that I was in Banja Luka with them. And he tried to convince me that I

10 never went to Banja Luka, that it was just him and Nikola. And that's

11 the truth. Because when we spoke to the investigators, I contacted

12 Ostoja Minic by phone. These people we spoke about, it's not a secret.

13 Anybody could know what we spoke about. That's the kind of man I am.

14 Q. So do I understand this: That you and Mr. Minic in 2005 got

15 together to discuss what you had been doing in 1992?

16 A. No, no. No need. We already discussed this topic. And whatever

17 we did was very professional. And I'm sure that's the way they do things

18 even now. And that's -- this is the way they worked earlier, when we

19 speak about the team of Nikola Milanovic and the regions around Foca,

20 Visegrad, and Doboj.

21 Q. What makes you say it was the 24th of August that you went there

22 and not the 18th?

23 A. I remember, after that other teams went. After ten days, they

24 went. There was a problem regarding the reserve police. The minister

25 issued an order with this regard, and somebody told me to look into that

Page 22115

1 as well. I don't know who it was. Maybe Macar or somebody else.

2 Q. Where is the report of your full inspection on the 24th of August

3 with Mr. Minic?

4 A. It was submitted to the administration and I believe that it was

5 drafted by Nikola Milanovic.

6 Q. Listen, I'm asking you where it is.

7 A. At the administration for crime prevention. And as for the mixed

8 teams, that went -- the line that they followed was the department for

9 crime prevention, then the administration for crime prevention. For

10 example, Cedo Tosic, who is a uniformed inspector, he went with them.

11 And I believe that they also attended the meeting, because the entire

12 team attended the meeting, as far as I can remember.

13 Q. Right. I'm simply asking, did you keep a copy of that report,

14 because the only report we have, apart from these notes of a meeting on

15 the 18th -- the 14th and 15th of August at Doboj, is one that's in

16 October?

17 A. When we were in Doboj, a report was drafted, stock was taken of

18 the situation, and as far as I know and as far as I can tell Your

19 Honours, that was done in a professional manner.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. I claim that.

22 Q. So your evidence is -- all right. Let's cut this short because I

23 don't want to waste time on a document. You say you didn't go with

24 Mr. Minic, and whoever else was there, and Milanovic on the 14th and

25 15th of August, you went separately on the 24th of August and conducted

Page 22116

1 your inspection?

2 A. I'm sure that there were three of us. I'm sure that there were

3 three of us. We had a car. We had some problems with the

4 authorisation --

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, no, I really --

6 A. -- and we were parked over in Brcko and I remember that because

7 we had --

8 Q. No. That's your evidence, is it? Two visits, four -- according

9 to this, and 24th. Now, just tell me how it is you're so sure it was the

10 24th? Do you have a diary for 1992?

11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, the witness explained

12 how he knows. He explained the link. He explained it during my

13 examination, during yours as well, and he referred to that authorisation.

14 And he mentioned several times how come he remembers that it was on the

15 24th.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was shown Brcko -- the

17 authorisation was issued in Brcko, and it was signed on Macar's behalf by

18 Nikola, I believe, because in 1992 there were huge problems, official IDs

19 were not valid, i.e., there were other people who carried them, so we had

20 to have a piece of paper, a document. And I told you about those

21 official IDs. When we were stopped by a soldier in uniform and he told

22 us, I don't care about your official ID, I have one of them. And he

23 showed us a blank ID that was the -- that was looted in a depot where

24 they were kept --

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not

Page 22117

1 activated] ... yes, don't -- don't -- please, please don't tell us that

2 whole story all over again.

3 A. I believe that this was all done by design. There was a design

4 behind all that.

5 Q. All right. Finally in this second visit -- [Microphone not

6 activated] ...

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. You did on that occasion look at the books properly, did you?

10 That is, the KU books?

11 A. First we had a meeting with the chief of the --

12 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... no, no, stop. Did you properly

13 inspect the books, the KU books? First the CSB and of the SJB?

14 A. Of the three of us, one of us, I believe it was Nikola, looked at

15 the KU books of the CSB. And as for the log-book of events for a

16 uniformed police station, it's a general book where everything is

17 registered, including breaches of discipline, traffic violations, and

18 other incidents. That may have been the origin of the problem because

19 the uniform --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stop, stop. Did you - and

21 by "you" I mean you personally - look at any of the books?

22 A. No. No. I didn't look at the KU book in the public security

23 station. I don't remember that anybody in the course of our visit --

24 because for that we would have had a uniformed inspector with us. That's

25 why we wanted to do it more thoroughly the following time. There were

Page 22118

1 problems regarding the functioning of the uniformed police and what the

2 uniformed policemen do. And as for the KU books ...

3 Q. Mr. Orasanin, I understood this was your great big proper visit,

4 sorry, inspection. Are you now saying that you ignored the inspection

5 checklist and did not, any of you, inspect the KU books? Is that what

6 you're saying?

7 A. No, no, no. I was putting things in the perspective of all the

8 other inspection visits, and I said that we did the best as we could.

9 And I guarantee you that we took a snap-shot of the situation as it was.

10 We saw that there were 10 or 11 killings and we based on shedding light

11 on the crimes committed by unknown perpetrators. This is what we

12 started. We ordered that operative groups should be set up in order to

13 elucidate all the crimes. We established contact with the president of

14 the second instance court. We also spoke to the chief of the crime

15 prevention services --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Orasanin, this will not

17 do. Stop. I'm not asking for a list of what you did. I'm simply asking

18 you whether you inspected the KU books and you're saying no you didn't.

19 Now, does that -- right.

20 A. I -- one of us did. Either Nikola or Ostoja did that. The rest

21 of us, we looked at the cases and we talked to the chief of the crime

22 prevention services who was in charge. We analysed cases. Of course we

23 saw the register of those crimes and then we wanted to see what they were

24 doing with that regard. That was that.

25 Q. Right. Stop. Thank you. Last night you had a look at a copy of

Page 22119

1 the Doboj SJB book. Did you yourself inspect that at the time, in

2 August 1992? Yes or no? That's all. Yes or no.

3 A. All I know and all you can see in the report, I saw in there. I

4 don't know whether I saw it myself or Ostoja did. I don't know. But it

5 was a team-work. So all the killings are registered and what we saw

6 tallies what that, and this is 1.000 per cent correct and sure. That's

7 how it was.

8 Q. Right. The second book, had you seen that one before? Let me

9 show it to you again.

10 MS. KORNER: Which is 20102, tab 14 -- 40.

11 Q. Just -- just -- all I want to know is whether you saw that book

12 at the time. I don't want to describe it for various reasons. Did you

13 see that book? Did you see that book?

14 A. One of the three of us did. However, when I looked at what was

15 going on, we registered all that, I can see that everything is

16 registered, that 10 or 11 killings by unknown perpetrators, I remember

17 some names, some on on-site inspections were carried out, and --

18 Q. Stop. Just tell us what that book is, please. I want you to

19 tell us what that book is.

20 A. This is a register or a log-book of perpetrated crimes. They are

21 all there. All the gravest crimes are registered in here, and I mean the

22 crimes that were inspected and investigated.

23 Q. Thank you. Is it a CSB book or is it an SJB book, Doboj?

24 A. It says CSB here. However, I don't know whether you'll be able

25 to understand me. What it says here, serious crimes for which there are

Page 22120

1 on-site inspections, in the bigger centre there are two services. The

2 crime prevention service has its own duty officer. That's how it was

3 done before the war, and it all depends on the internal organisation of

4 the service.

5 Q. Right. I know that. I simply want to know - and there is a

6 reason for me asking you this - does that appear to --

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. Just, please. -- does that appear to be a log-book maintained by

9 the CSB or the SJB Doboj?

10 A. It says here that these are on site inspections which are

11 registered at the centre.

12 Q. Yes, but I think you're -- are you reading -- what are you

13 reading there? Are you reading the thing at the top? Yes, well -- no, I

14 don't want you to read that. I know that's what it says. But that's not

15 on the book itself. I want you -- from looking at the book, whether you

16 can tell me whether this is CSB or SJB. If you can't, then please say

17 so. Leave aside the yellow piece of paper.

18 A. Here, this shows inspections that were carried out following

19 crimes, so this is probably the centre log-book.

20 Q. Right. Thank you very much. Right you can hand that back.

21 A. Yes, may I also --

22 Q. No, you mayn't. Just give it back to me, please.

23 All right. Finally, on the Doboj, can I ask you to look, please,

24 at 1D542, which is tab 36A of our bundle.

25 That's a list of the unknown perpetrators cases that you were

Page 22121

1 talking, is that right, from Doboj, Mr. Orasanin?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Right. Can you confirm that each and every one of the victims

4 of -- sorry, just a moment. Yes, sorry. Yes, that all of the

5 victims - I just want to check this - appear to be non-Serb victims?

6 A. I remember the names. I found them in the log-book.

7 Q. Yes. They're all non-Serbs, aren't they?

8 A. Number 1 --

9 Q. In fact, they're pretty well all Muslims, aren't they?

10 A. 1, 2, 3, 4 --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... don't count them.

12 A. There are 10. Ten.

13 Q. Yes. Are all the victims of these crimes, which are the only

14 non -- unknown perpetrator crimes, they're all non-Serb, aren't they?

15 MS. KORNER: Now, please don't interrupt.

16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could you allow the witness to

17 read the document. That's my remark at this point.

18 MS. KORNER: I understood this was a document he'd seen,

19 particularly as it's a Defence document.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document? I've not seen the

21 document before. This is the first time I see it. I remember the names.

22 These names are in the KU book --

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Right. Are they all non-Serb names? That's all. That's all I

25 want you to confirm.

Page 22122

1 A. Yes, here. But in the KU book I found 12 murders; among those,

2 victims are also Serbs.

3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have to ask you to allow the

4 witness to read the last part where it says with regard to the above

5 report and where it says who the victims are. Why don't you allow the

6 witness to read the document through? Please, can you read and see if

7 there are also Serb victims in here.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 8. From 1 through 8 I have.

9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] What is the last number?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Eight.

11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then you don't have the entire

12 document.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, there you go. Are you

15 reading from the screen?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from 1 through 8.

17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, could you please ask

18 the usher to provide the witness with a hard copy of the document so that

19 the witness can read it through. I don't care for these examination

20 methods.

21 Could you please read the document until the very end. The last

22 part, please.

23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have the next page on the screen,

25 please, in English.

Page 22123

1 MS. KORNER: And in B/C/S.

2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the last part, where

3 it says "in connection with the above report" ...

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see this is it. Uh-huh. "In

5 connection with the above report"; do you want me to read this?

6 MS. KORNER: Do you know, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm taking

7 exceeding objection to this. This is -- all of this can be dealt with in

8 re-examination. This is not a proper way for Defence counsel to behave.

9 JUDGE HALL: And it's prolonging the proceedings.

10 Mr. Cvijetic, let Ms. Korner formulate her questions. And if the

11 question is unfair, we will intervene. But let's get on with it.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. Now, Mr. Orasanin, you've had a chance to read through this.

14 These are the names you yourself saw in the KU books. They are the

15 11 unsolved, unknown perpetrator cases; is that right?

16 A. Yes, crimes committed by unknown perpetrators.

17 Q. Thank you. Of the 11 names of the crimes committed by unknown

18 perpetrators, are any of those names Serb names, the victims?

19 A. As far as I can see, no.

20 Q. Thank you. Right.

21 MS. KORNER: Can we -- I don't know what Your Honour -- I've

22 forgotten what time the break is in the afternoon.

23 JUDGE HALL: It's in three minutes' time. But if it's

24 convenient, we can take it now.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm just going to deal, very briefly, with

Page 22124

1 Banja Luka, which was the last place he visited. And that's the end of

2 the inspection -- of this lot of inspections. Or, Your Honour -- I'm in

3 Your Honour's hands, I don't mind.

4 JUDGE HALL: Do you still expect to finish this afternoon?

5 MS. KORNER: Yes, I do.

6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so we'd take the break now and come back in

7 20 minutes.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just before the -- while the witness

12 is being brought - thank you - can I make it clear that over the

13 adjournment we've had another look at the Brcko book. It runs until

14 roughly the end of April, then there's an underlining. It is 1992. But

15 the next entry after April is not until the 1st of July. So I should

16 make that absolutely clear. So the point I was trying to make was that

17 it was operating in May. There's nothing to show that it was, in that

18 book. And I apologise.

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Ms. Korner. So noted.

20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have looked at

21 the book together and noticed that, so the issue has been resolved.

22 [The witness takes the stand]

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Mr. Orasanin, you told the Court that after Doboj you went to

25 Banja Luka CSB. And you spent there -- this is at page 21920 of the

Page 22125

1 transcript and goes on to 21921, you reviewed the crimes log-book,

2 criminal complaints, and so on and so forth. Do you remember telling the

3 Court that?

4 A. Yes. When we came to Banja Luka --

5 Q. No, that's all I need. That's what happened, was it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you also spend only one hour in Banja Luka?

8 A. A few hours.

9 Q. All right. Where is your report on this inspection?

10 A. It was a single report.

11 Q. All right. So there was a report on Doboj --

12 A. [In English] Doboj, Banja Luka.

13 Q. -- and Banja Luka. Right.

14 Again, can you explain why you and Mr. Minic and Milanovic were

15 doing an inspection in late August, around the 25th it must have been

16 according to you, when there had been an earlier inspection on the

17 5th of August?

18 MS. KORNER: If we have a look, please, at P631, tab 28. Report

19 on the performed inspection of the CSB and public security stations in

20 the territory of the Autonomous Region Krajina. Can we go to the last

21 page, please.

22 Q. We'll see the 5th of August, report submitted by Sreto Gajic,

23 department chief, and Mr. Mirosavic, police inspector.

24 A. [Interpretation] Yes, we can see that in the report. They are

25 inspectors of the uniformed police, as far as I remember.

Page 22126

1 Tomislav Miroslavic [as interpreted] and Sreto Gajic. They are from that

2 area.

3 Q. Why was there an inspection being done within a matter of weeks

4 by you, Mr. Minic, and Milanovic?

5 A. We were in Doboj and finished the work there, and then we went to

6 Banja Luka about crime. And this is probably an inspection of the

7 uniformed police.

8 Q. What, do you mean you went there of your own initiative, on your

9 own initiative, rather than having been told to go there?

10 A. As far as I can see, these inspectors were there to make a

11 snap-shot of the uniformed police. The same as us who went to Doboj.

12 And then the need became obvious to conduct an inspection of the

13 uniformed police. That follows from some work duties.

14 Q. Yes. All right. Thank you, that's all I want to ask you.

15 Now, Visegrad and Foca, your visit, for which you wrote a report

16 that we looked at with the Defence, but I just want to understand this:

17 Is it your assertion that Visegrad was not operating properly; or was it,

18 apart from the shortage of staff which we looked at, a properly operating

19 SJB?

20 A. We found out and stated in the report, after visiting Rudo, we

21 came to Visegrad, we were also there briefly. I said that those were

22 short visits and our first visits to that area. We started at Foca and

23 finished at Visegrad.

24 Q. No. Stop, please. Answer the question. Is it your contention

25 that Visegrad was not a properly functioning SJB?

Page 22127

1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it may be good to

2 show the witness his report for Visegrad to jog his memory and then he

3 can answer. That may be useful.

4 MS. KORNER: He's just looked at it. I want to know whether he

5 makes --

6 Q. Sorry, I want to know, Mr. Orasanin, whether you make the same

7 complaints, that there were insufficient staff or that things were not

8 being done properly at Visegrad?

9 A. There were problems there, just as in all those stations,

10 problems with the prosecutor's office and the court, problems with

11 conducting on-site investigations and investigative activities and

12 everything that was necessary. That's what we found out, because without

13 that the service cannot function. That was our goal. And they -- there

14 were plans for other inspectors to go there later.

15 Q. Yes. It's not, however, that there were insufficient police

16 officers at -- on duty, is it?

17 A. I can't remember now how many police officers in uniform were

18 there and how many crime enforcement officers. I remember that there

19 were three or four in crime enforcement. But we were told that there

20 were -- they were fewer than before. But as far as I know, there were

21 plans for going to Visegrad again to assess the situation. I know that.

22 Q. Now, no doubt you're aware of the house fire that was started and

23 that has been the subject of trials at this court in Visegrad which took

24 place in June or July, I think maybe July, of 1992. When you examined

25 the KU books at Visegrad, did you find any record of that crime?

Page 22128

1 A. When we were in Visegrad, we stayed an hour. There were talks,

2 and we noticed that. But the problem was with the investigative

3 activities. When we returned, I know that there were plans for Milanovic

4 maybe, or somebody from our group, to go there again because there was

5 talk about some corpses. That's what I remember.

6 Q. Yes. Are you saying that you did not examine the crime registers

7 in Visegrad? That -- just say "yes" or "no."

8 A. As far as I remember, there were three or four inspectors but

9 they were absent.

10 Q. Look, did you or did you not - and by "you," I mean you or either

11 Mr. Minic or Mr. Milanovic - look at the KU books?

12 A. That's stated in the report, but I don't remember it now.

13 Probably one of us did. I didn't.

14 Q. Well, all right. Let's have a look at the report because there's

15 no reference in the report to this.

16 MS. KORNER: Can we have up, please, it's P6 -- oh, no. It's

17 tab 29 in the Defence bundle, and I think it must be 33 -- no, it's

18 1D53 -- sorry. 33D1. 1D571.

19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's tab 29 in the -- okay.

20 MS. KORNER: And can we go to the second page, please, in --

21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the usher

22 to hand this binder with the exhibits to the witness. It may be easier

23 for him to read the hard copy.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Well, what you say there is there's a crime prevention department

Page 22129

1 with three employees, criminal reports by injured parties have been, I

2 think it must be filed, and a number have been processed.

3 So does that mean you looked at the criminal reports themselves

4 or the KU register?

5 Mr. Orasanin?

6 A. A presentation was made about the crimes committed and the

7 problems of the prosecutor's office and that the criminal report were not

8 filed with the prosecutor's office.

9 Q. Stop, stop. I can read that, so can everybody else.

10 Did you or did you not look at the KU books?

11 A. I think that we were briefed at the meeting that we attended and

12 this is what we noted.

13 Q. All right. Stop, stop. I'm not going to go on with this.

14 In the report you talk about: "In the Visegrad area there have

15 been cases of murder, that is, genocide, committed against Serbs."

16 No reference at all to - let's use your word - genocide committed

17 against non-Serbs, Muslims, is there?

18 A. As far as I remember this, when we were there, somebody brought a

19 cassette because communications were down. And that's why this was put

20 here. We were supposed to give it to the news agency. And this was a

21 recent crime, as far as I remember, in a village, maybe Jelasice.

22 Because it was so recent, this remark was made here.

23 And I know that another trip to Visegrad was planned for a later

24 time in order to -- in order to collect information, because there was a

25 mention of corpses in the Drina.

Page 22130

1 Jelasice, yes, that's the name of the village.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... it says the corpses in the

3 Drina -- stop. The corpses in the Drina weren't related to anything to

4 do with the fires that killed all those people or the people who were

5 shot by the river. They were to do with crimes against the Serbs, were

6 they?

7 MS. KORNER: Now what?

8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, how can

9 the witness answer this question? He must first be asked whether he was

10 aware of that crime. The Prosecutor is basically giving evidence about

11 what we have heard in this trial. The Prosecutor is skipping several

12 steps before asking the witness this question.

13 MS. KORNER: I was actually asking the witness, and that's how I

14 started off, whether there was any mention of that to him.

15 Q. So do we take it from that that either it was never mentioned to

16 you or you -- well, first of all, was it mentioned to you by the Visegrad

17 police that in June deliberate fires had been set which had killed large

18 numbers of extended Muslim families?

19 A. We didn't know it then. I know that there were some activities,

20 there was a dispatch, it may have been sent by the chief, about some

21 groups over there, and para-groups, but only when we returned. Some sort

22 of problems.

23 Q. What, the Lukic brothers?

24 A. The chief -- the station chief wrote that.

25 Q. Right. Isn't it right that - and I'm going to come on to that as

Page 22131

1 the final topic, Mr. Orasanin - the only interest that the MUP, from the

2 top to the bottom, had in investigating was crimes that were committed

3 against Serbs, and that's why this paragraph appears in this way?

4 A. I said why this remark was made. And the colleagues who were

5 with me also know. Because of that cassette which was --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, yes, you told us --

7 don't tell us about the cassette again. All right, you don't agree with

8 my suggestion.

9 When did you learn about the house fires, then, please?

10 A. I can't remember now. I believe that there was some sort of

11 report or dispatch from the station chief.

12 Q. Yes, but when?

13 A. That's why -- but I was soon transferred to another position in

14 the border police and so now I can't --

15 Q. No, you weren't trans -- no, stop, stop, stop, stop. You weren't

16 transferred until November 1992. Was -- that report from the SJB chief

17 on the house fires and other crimes committed against non-Serbs, was that

18 before you went to the border police?

19 A. Well, as far as I remember, some reports were there in July. I

20 can't remember now. It may have been later, after I was transferred.

21 But I know that there was talk about another team going there again, that

22 some corpses had been found in the Drina. I know that from when they

23 returned.

24 Q. Corpses of what, Serbs or non-Serbs?

25 A. We don't know that. But I know that they should go there again.

Page 22132

1 And I think they were non-Serbs, where -- when we were in Bijeljina, I

2 mean.

3 Q. When what? When, you mean, the MUP was in Bijeljina? The

4 headquarters?

5 A. Yes, yes, the MUP.

6 Q. All right. Now, look, it can't be -- you say it was either in

7 July 1992 or November 1992 after you left. Presumably after you had gone

8 to the border police --

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. No, just pause. -- that you heard about the house fires. If you

11 had gone to the border police in November 1992, then you would hardly

12 likely have seen a report from the SJB chief, would you?

13 A. I really can't remember now, you know, if a report reached the

14 administration. But the headquarters was in Bijeljina --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... look, stop.

16 A. That means the crime prevention administration was in Bijeljina.

17 I can't remember.

18 Q. Right. I don't -- the -- you, when you went to the border

19 police, no longer saw reports intended for the crime prevention unit, did

20 you?

21 A. The reports are passed on along the lines of work. And some

22 contain information intended for the analyses department and also for the

23 media. I don't know and understand what you're asking.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... no. Please, please,

25 Mr. Orasanin, stop. This is going on forever.

Page 22133

1 When you went to the border police, you no longer saw reports

2 from an SJB chief in Visegrad about killings, did you?

3 A. No. If it was a dispatch, if a dispatch was sent out --

4 Q. Honestly, Mr. Orasanin, this is -- just answer this, please. We

5 take it, therefore, that the report on those killings from Visegrad must

6 have come before you went to the border police?

7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness should

8 be asked whether he's sure at all that such a report came in. I

9 cannot conclude from his answers --

10 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... for

11 re-examination, Mr. Cvijetic.

12 MS. KORNER: No, that's disgraceful. You cannot help the witness

13 out like this.

14 Q. Right. I'll try one last time and then I want to finish as

15 quickly as I can, Mr. Orasanin.

16 You told us you thought the report arrived in July but it could

17 have been after you left. You would not have seen this report, would

18 you, once you were in the border police? That's all I want to know. Yes

19 or no.

20 A. I remember a report about paramilitary groups there which was

21 from July or so. The station sent out such a report. But who -- I don't

22 remember who the suspects are or who the victims were. But there were

23 some problems with paramilitaries who were active there.

24 Q. Did that report on paramilitaries include --

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 22134

1 Q. No, don't answer. Did that report on the paramilitaries include

2 an account of the appalling crimes they had committed against non-Serbs;

3 yes or no?

4 A. I don't remember now.

5 Q. Right.

6 A. It may have been sent by dispatch, or perhaps that was

7 information from the media. It was long ago. I simply don't remember.

8 But it's --

9 Q. That's fine, stop.

10 Foca, I just want to deal with one --

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, before you move to somewhere else.

12 Mr. Orasanin, the house fire, as Ms. Korner calls it, is a quite

13 massive and important incident, that's right, isn't it? You know that

14 now?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now then, let's take it that when doing

17 the inspection you did in Visegrad, you didn't know about it, and your

18 colleagues who were with you to do an inspection did not know about it,

19 nevertheless - and this is my question, and I would like to have a short

20 answer to that - wouldn't it anyhow have been told or been found out by

21 you that this happened and wouldn't it have been mentioned in your

22 report, a report that dates from one month after the event?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, had we known that, we

24 certainly would have mentioned it in the report --

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I know, I know, I know. But my question is:

Page 22135

1 Wouldn't the people in Visegrad you were inspecting, weren't they under

2 the obligation to tell you about this? Or if not, weren't they under the

3 obligation to have that logged in one or the other log-book where you

4 should have found it or could have found it? But it wasn't there. You

5 inspected the books, it wasn't there, because you don't know about it.

6 Because if you had known, you would have mentioned it. So my question

7 is --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you agree

10 with me that they should have told you, that they should have told you,

11 or that you -- that it would have been normal and the -- their obligation

12 to file that in one way or the other in one or the other log-book that

13 you were inspecting, but they didn't, is that it?

14 That's how I interpret, now, your "yes." Am I right?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If we had known that those

16 things had happened, we would have mentioned that in the report. Either

17 if we had been briefed or if we had found it ourselves in the book.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. Right. I want you to look, please, at -- [Microphone not

21 activated]. Sorry, I'd like you to look, please, at a document which is

22 65 ter 10395, tab 30 of our binder.

23 This is a report, 10th of August, 1992. At the top it says

24 "Cedo Tosic and Vojin Vukovic." Are those two of the inspectors that you

25 worked with?

Page 22136

1 A. They did not belong to the crime prevention administration. They

2 did not belong to our administration. However, I remember that they were

3 in the area of Herzegovina, I believe. I don't know.

4 Q. All right. So you wouldn't be able to identify their signatures?

5 A. I did not work with them. I worked in the administration for

6 crime prevention and they worked in the police administration.

7 Cedo Tosic also carried out inspection in the territory of Doboj. I've

8 already mentioned that. He actually went on one inspection to inspect

9 the reserve police force, as far as I can remember.

10 Q. All right. Yes. I don't think I can take that further. Thank

11 you.

12 Right. Can I deal now, please, with your assertion that the MUP

13 investigated war crimes whosoever they were committed against. I've

14 already suggested to you that the only interest the MUP had in

15 investigating war crimes was those that were allegedly against Serb

16 victims. Could you have a look, please, at P173, which is at tab 9A.

17 On the 16th of May, Mico Stanisic issued this order to the

18 Security Services Centre and so ordered that "for the purpose of

19 monitoring combat operations and regular activities of the organs of the

20 interior, and in order to collect documentation on the crimes against the

21 Serbian population," et cetera, et cetera.

22 Were you aware of this order?

23 A. I believe that this was drafted when we were on our inspection in

24 Podrinje, sometime in mid-May.

25 Q. All right. So you were aware of this order?

Page 22137

1 A. I can't remember. Maybe we were travelling at that time.

2 Perhaps. I don't know.

3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page? Can

4 we show the witness the signature to see whether it is, indeed,

5 Mico Stanisic's order? Let's see who signed it.

6 MS. KORNER: I'm so sorry, I didn't understand that there was any

7 dispute that this was an order issued by Mico Stanisic.

8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to see whether

9 the witness recognises Mico Stanisic's signature on this document. This

10 is all I wanted to say.

11 MS. KORNER: I don't imagine -- sorry, can we go back --

12 Q. Were you aware of this order issued by Mico Stanisic?

13 A. At that time I was probably on sick leave and later on I learned

14 about that. Because we had had that accident, you know, I was absent for

15 some ten days or so, you know.

16 Q. That's fine. You learned about it later, but the --

17 A. I can't remember. I can't remember because I was on sick leave.

18 We had had that accident, so I was at home until the end of May, so I

19 don't --

20 Q. Mr. Orasanin, you said that. Stop. Did you learn -- you told us

21 you learned about it later.

22 A. I'm not sure because it was only sometime around the 28th of May.

23 I was at home before that, so it would not make much sense for me to

24 know. It wouldn't have been logical, would it? I don't know. I don't

25 think that I've ever seen this before. This is a document about military

Page 22138

1 activities and operations. This is what it's about, combat activities

2 and operations.

3 Q. I'm so sorry, please, Mr. Orasanin, I just want an answer to this

4 question: Whether you knew about the order on the 16th of May or whether

5 you discovered it later, did you know that he had issued an order to the

6 CSBs to collect documentation on war crimes committed against Serbs?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Right. Never heard that? Oh, never mind. I think that's a

9 mistake to ask that.

10 A. I did not see this at the crime prevention administration, I'm

11 sure, after my return from sick leave. I'm not familiar with this at

12 all. No.

13 Q. And finally, on this point --

14 A. There was another document about war crimes.

15 Q. Yes, I know there was. I want you to --

16 A. No, I don't -- I was -- I thought that that was the one, but it's

17 not.

18 Q. Right. Don't go on talking. Are you saying that you never

19 understood that the concentration of the MUP was to get evidence about

20 war crimes committed against Serbs? Did you never understand that was

21 the object? No --

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I'd like you to look, please --

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. I'd like you to look please -- stop talking.

Page 22139

1 A. Can I answer?

2 Q. I would like you to look, please, at the MUP report for 1992,

3 which is P625, at tab 37A. And can we go, please -- do you see this is a

4 report April to December 1992 for -- of the Republika Srpska Ministry of

5 the Interior. Did you see that?

6 A. I can't remember. I would have to look at the contents first. I

7 was an inspector at that time and not all documents reached me.

8 Q. Didn't all inspectors get a copy of the report of the work of the

9 MUP?

10 A. We have our own reports, our own administration. We draft our

11 own programmes and reports connected with our own administration, and I

12 suppose that this was only seen by our bosses, by our managers.

13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness needs to be shown the

14 date when this report was compiled. And then it will be easier for him

15 to answer whether he ever saw it and when.

16 THE INTERPRETER: It is very difficult to understand the witness,

17 especially if the witness and the counsel are overlapping.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in the MUP centre at the

19 time. From December 1992 I was working on the setting up of the border

20 police and I was not in the MUP at all.

21 MS. KORNER:

22 Q. I want you to look, nonetheless, in respect of your answer about

23 the interest that you had in investigating war crimes, at the part that

24 deals with crime detection.

25 MS. KORNER: In English that is page 12. And in B/C/S, page 13.

Page 22140

1 No, must be -- sorry, that's not the page in B/C/S. It should say

2 F120-1292 on the top. Yes, that's it. Thank you.

3 Q. Is that the section headed "Crime Prevention and Detection"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that's the section that dealt with the work of your

6 department; correct?

7 A. Yes. In the previous year, that is.

8 Q. Yep, I quite agree.

9 MS. KORNER: Now let's go, please, to - one, two - three pages

10 on, page 15 in English. And it's - one, two, three - four pages on in

11 B/C/S.

12 Q. Do you see the paragraph in B/C/S that begins "in this

13 period ..."?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. "In this period, the criminal inspectors"; that's

16 you, isn't it, Mr. Orasanin? You were a criminal inspector?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. "... visited all CSBs and SJBs and had meetings where they gave

19 instructions for carrying out concrete operative activities. The focus

20 of operative work in the CSBs and SJBs was on detection, documenting, and

21 reporting members of the enemy army who had committed acts of genocide

22 against the Serbian people, torched or destroyed immovable property,

23 cultural, religious monuments, and other assets."

24 Do you agree that is an accurate description of what the main

25 task was?

Page 22141

1 A. I don't agree. This is not the style that the -- a criminal -- a

2 crime prevention administration would have used. This is done by the

3 analytical service. This is not a task of the crime prevention

4 administration. It must have been somebody from the analytical service

5 who did that.

6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to intervene.

7 If such a voluminous report is shown to the witness in short batches and

8 if it's given to the witness who has not seen it before, we are never

9 going to get an adequate response.

10 In the entire report there is information to which Ms. Korner

11 refers and that is crimes against humanitarian and international law.

12 There is even a chapter on that, but that chapter has not been shown to

13 the witness. I believe that the method that Ms. Korner has used in

14 examining this witness is not adequate because she is taking things out

15 of the context. There is a whole report about the most serious types of

16 crimes, and the question arises whether this witness is at all competent

17 to comment upon the report that he has never seen. I've seen it and I

18 had time to read it; whereas he has never seen it, he has never read it

19 before.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, as I understand the import of

22 Ms. Korner's question, it is -- although the witness himself, as he said,

23 hasn't seen -- didn't see the report previously, it deals with an area --

24 it reports on matters for which he, according to his testimony, had

25 responsibility, and he is merely being asked to comment on what is in the

Page 22142

1 sections of the report. So I don't know that he needs to digest the

2 whole of the report in order to answer the particular questions that are

3 being phrased, that are being put to him.

4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he cannot answer if

5 he doesn't digest the entire report that concerns the work of his

6 administration --

7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, unless I misunderstand what's been

8 going on, he isn't asked -- being asked to do a commentary on this

9 report. What he is asked, what is being put to him, is specific findings

10 or sections of the report and asking for his -- what his reaction is to

11 it because the report deals with areas for which he was responsible.

12 Seems to be quite straightforward.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that is absolutely right. The

14 interruptions that Mr. Cvijetic is making either display his complete

15 ignorance of the role of counsel when cross-examination is going on or

16 are deliberately designed to try and help his witness. Either way, they

17 are improper, and Your Honour has summarised the point that I'm trying to

18 make.

19 Q. Now, this part, Mr. Orasanin, says that the criminal inspectors,

20 and you've agreed you were one of them, visited the CSBs and SJBs, and

21 the focus of your work, says the report, was dealing with members of the

22 enemy army, as they're described, who committed acts of genocide against

23 the Serbian people.

24 I asked you whether you agreed with that assessment and you tell

25 us you do not; is that right?

Page 22143

1 A. I do not, because we made questionnaires for both -- both to be

2 processed. And there was a criminal report where there was a crime

3 committed that we treated as murder, although it may have been a war

4 crime. There is a general remark in the report, but I don't think that

5 this was made on behalf of the crime detection and prevention service.

6 We didn't have a position toward that. We had RZ and RZ1 forms, and we

7 were instructed to fill in these forms for Serbs and for the others.

8 That was our position.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Somebody wrote this who did not use the style that we used in our

11 service.

12 Q. Yes, stop, stop. Right. I understand you don't agree.

13 See, let me make it quite clear to you what our position is,

14 Mr. Orasanin. I suggest to you that these forms and any orders allegedly

15 looking to investigate war crimes against all manner of persons are no

16 more than window-dressing and that all the Serbian MUP in Bosnia was

17 interested in investigating was crimes committed against Serbs.

18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. Are

19 these final arguments now or a question to the witness?

20 JUDGE HALL: Please continue, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER:

22 Q. That's -- I want to make quite clear what we suggest is the

23 reality about these forms that you helped prepare. Do you agree or

24 disagree? And you can say you agree or disagree.

25 A. I disagree because we made them to be used. Minister Stanisic

Page 22144

1 wrote a dispatch which was forwarded through the analyses department, and

2 we in our administration actually made them. That's how we were brought

3 up, irrespective of the events, and that's how it will always be. And if

4 you're counting me in this group, then I take it as an offence.

5 Q. Yes. Finally, you said that the local authorities, the

6 Crisis Staffs, effectively controlled the police. Were you aware of the

7 instructions issued by the SDS party on the 19th of December, 1991, on

8 the composition of Crisis Staffs? And you can just answer that "yes" or

9 "no."

10 A. Yes and no.

11 Q. Yes or no. Did you know about the instructions?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you know about the further instructions issued by

14 Prime Minister Djeric on the 26th of April, 1992, about the work of

15 Crisis Staffs?

16 A. I remember it kind of. But during the war we had no time to

17 think what -- who was planning what and the like. I was -- I spoke about

18 that altogether already. Until the war we mostly dealt with detention

19 cases, and that's why the confusion arose with regard to the Law on

20 Internal Affairs --

21 Q. Stop, stop, stop. And I'm sorry I'm interrupting the

22 translation.

23 Did you know that Prime Minister Djeric issued instructions on

24 the composition and work of Crisis Staffs on April 26th, 1992; yes or no?

25 A. I do not remember. I said what I know and what has to do with

Page 22145

1 the judiciary and the MUP. That's what I followed, the legal procedure

2 in these areas. And I said that I had these decisions on the

3 establishment of courts and prosecutor's offices, and there's also

4 something about prison facilities and something like that. And we were

5 carrying that around with us and we were drivers and couriers and

6 everything else. That's what I know. I was never interested in

7 politics.

8 Q. So you did not know that those orders from the government said

9 that the head of the MUP in a particular area had to be on the

10 Crisis Staff? Answer "yes" or "no," please.

11 A. Not as far as I know.

12 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, how long do you expect you would be

14 with your re-examination?

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's what I was

16 about to say. I think there's no point to try and deal with any one

17 topic in the remaining ten minutes because for my re-examination I will

18 need at least one session.

19 JUDGE HALL: So we --

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there's one matter as to timing which

21 we could -- sorry, not timing, but the scheduling of the case, which

22 Mr. Krgovic and I were discussing which we could just, perhaps, deal

23 with.

24 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

25 So, Mr. Orasanin, we are about to rise, but we have some