1 Thursday, 9 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 [French on English channel]
8 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
9 Stojan Zupljanin.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. And good afternoon to
11 everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
12 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
13 temporarily Alexis Demirdjian, and Crispian Smith, temporarily being to
14 deal with the disclosure arguments.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
16 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
17 Stanisic Defence this afternoon. Thank you.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Dragan Krgovic and
19 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 Before we do anything else, because I don't trust myself not to
22 forget it, we would alert the parties that after -- when we take the
23 summer recess in this case - and the reason why we're doing it this
24 afternoon is because this would be -- is being done contemporaneously
25 with a like announcement being made elsewhere - when we take the summer
1 adjournment in this -- in the present case, we will not be in a position
2 to resume the hearings until the week beginning the 29th of August
3 because of the decisions, and counsel would be aware of the heavy e-mail
4 traffic that has gone on for the past several weeks now, about balancing,
5 sharing the time, between this case and the case of Haradinaj.
6 The other matters is, there's a very brief ruling which the
7 Chamber has to deliver. And it is dealing with the motion by the
8 Stanisic Defence to compel the Prosecution to comply with Rule 66(B).
9 And the -- upon examination of the requests from the counsel for
10 Stanisic, the Chamber finds that they fall far short of meeting the
11 conditions required in Rule 66(B) of the Rules. And pursuant to Rule 54
12 and 66(B), the Chamber denies the motion.
13 That is the oral decision. There is a written decision which is
14 in the process of being prepared and which we expect to issue shortly.
15 Thank you.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just before Mr. Zecevic raises the
17 matters he wants to raise, can I go back to the sitting arrangements and
18 ask whether Your Honours are able to tell us whether the suggestion I
19 think that was made by all parties to the various cases, namely that it
20 will be two weeks on one case and two weeks on another, is what's going
21 to be accepted?
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes. That is the -- I don't have with me the
23 projection through to the end of the year, but I do remember the
24 beginning. We would begin after the summer recess with the other case,
25 and Stanisic and Zupljanin will pick up on the 29th of August, and
1 thereafter it will alternate as counsel have -- in two-week periods.
2 That seems, from the input of all of the interested parties, the most
3 practical way of dealing with this.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honours. That's --
5 that's very helpful.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I do have a comment on that,
7 because Your Honours mentioned that that seems to be the case, from the
8 input of all the interested parties, the most practical way of dealing
9 with that. Your Honours, I'm pretty sure that the Trial Chamber is aware
10 of the fact that we never responded to that mail because, Your Honours,
11 we required first and foremost to consult the Office of Legal Aid before
12 we can provide the answer to the Trial Chamber, and it's been going for
13 some time with the OLAD and the Registry about that and it creates a
14 significant problem from the point of -- from the point of Defence if
15 it's two-weeks' breaks. And I'm not sure because we still don't have a
16 feedback from OLAD about what is their position going to be in respect to
17 our obligations as appointees by the OLAD. So in that respect I ...
18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. -- I would only say, because it is partly
19 confidential, that OLAD has provisionally concretized a view. The
20 problems which these -- running these cases simultaneously create do not
21 admit of easy solutions, and the -- where we are now in terms of the way
22 forward is not chiselled in stone. And one of the reasons why the -- I
23 made the announcement that I did is so that if there are any difficulties
24 which counsel or the parties have which are not yet apparent to the
25 Judges, that no doubt you would make it known and we would see where we
1 go. So inasmuch as a decision had to be made, particularly in terms of
2 the other case, for the ancillary reasons connected with starting a case,
3 that is where we are, and we would see where further discussions and
4 further thoughts place us in the weeks to come.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. I'm sorry, but we were
6 not informed by OLAD that -- of their position, and that is why I brought
7 this to the attention of the Judges.
8 Your Honours, I announced that I have a quick submission and --
9 well, rather quick. It will depend what Your Honours think about that.
10 And I would like to raise a few matters which are a concern, a grave
11 concern, for the Defence.
12 But let me try with the relief that we are seeking, and I hope I
13 will not shock the Trial Chamber with the relief we are seeking.
14 Your Honours, we are asking the adjournment until next Thursday in
15 presentation of our Defence case, and the reasons are the following:
16 First of all, we would like to see the compliance motion because -- the
17 decision of the Trial Chamber on our motion for compliance of the
18 Office of the Prosecutor based on 66(B) because we have -- we think it
19 goes to the matter of utmost importance for the Defence which is the
20 fairness of the proceedings. Therefore, we will be -- I hope we will be
21 in a position do that within a week time. That would be one of the
23 The second reason, Your Honours, is the fact that in last seven
24 days we received from the Office of the Prosecutor 132 documents signed
25 by Mr. Mico Stanisic which have never ever been disclosed to us before.
1 Now, apparently the Office of the Prosecutor felt that these documents,
2 which were in their possession quite some time, do not meet the
3 requirements of Rule 68 or that are irrelevant in this case, however, as
4 I had a very short time to get myself acquainted with some of the
5 documents, we do not share that view. And, Your Honours, with all due
6 respect, we need definitely some time to analyse these documents and see
7 whether we can introduce some of these documents in our Defence case.
8 On top of it, we just recently made a finding in the electronic
9 disclosure system of a whole batch of CSB Sarajevo --
10 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Mr. Zecevic, when you say 132 documents,
11 should we be thinking of 132 pages or 132 by an average of, say,
12 multiplied by five or three or whatnot; how much paper are we talking
14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it --
15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Ms. Korner, thank you very much, but let me finish.
17 It is -- most of them are one single-page document, so I think we
18 are talking about roughly 132 to 140 pages altogether.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: The second thing, as I said, is the findings of the
21 batch of documents of CSB Sarajevo. Those documents are -- those
22 documents have never ever appeared before in all our searches of EDS, but
23 that's only understandable knowing the electronic glitches that we have
24 in that system. Now, we are not sure how many documents are there, but
25 so far we've been -- it's a number of documents. And since our next
1 witness is actually talking about the CSB Sarajevo for the relevant
2 period of -- for the indictment, we would need to review that batch as
4 The fourth reason is the fact that we intend to shorten our
5 witness list. When I say that, I -- we still have four witnesses left on
6 our original 65 ter list. We intend to drop two of the witnesses from
7 that list. But then there is a number of documents which we wanted to
8 introduce through these witnesses, and we would like to be able to be
9 given the opportunity to consult the remaining two witnesses whether any
10 of the documents came within their knowledge or if they can comment on
11 these documents so we can perhaps introduce them through the remaining
12 two witnesses.
13 And, well, Your Honours, that's basically my submission. I don't
14 want to -- I can go at length about any of these points, but I'm happy to
15 answer any question if the Trial Chamber would have.
16 JUDGE HALL: And to bring you back to where you started, your
17 application is such that the four days, is it, between now and Thursday
18 would put you in a position to deal with these issues; that's what you're
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we don't have any witnesses for
21 one day, so Mr. -- our next witness has not yet arrived, so therefore
22 tomorrow was anyhow -- we would have been adjourned. But -- and
23 Monday --
24 JUDGE HALL: -- is a holiday.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: -- is a holiday. Yes.
1 JUDGE HALL: That's why I counted four days.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: So therefore we are asking for two days -- well,
3 yes, two days next week in order to be able to deal with these issues,
4 yes. Tuesday and Wednesday, so we start --
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, only two days. Two days, really. Thanks.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Thank you.
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.
8 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, the first thing to be said is, as
9 I explained yesterday, at no stage did the Defence seek your leave not to
10 call the next witness tomorrow. Although, having said that, and as
11 Your Honours know, a witness that should have lasted no more, top whack,
12 than six hours in cross-examination because of his complete and utter
13 inability to answer questions is still here and, if he goes on like this,
14 may well be here tomorrow, so that's one matter.
15 The second matter is this: Your Honours, we do dispute that with
16 the exception of three documents, which we enumerate for the Defence, any
17 of the documents that we gave them addressed to, or signed by, Stanisic
18 as a result of the very, very late 66(B) request are relevant. Can I
19 give you an example, Your Honours, of the one-page documents that have
20 been disclosed because of the request.
21 A document about a request for the registration of a Golf. A
22 document about confirmation of the ownership of the vehicle. A document
23 asking for the costs of reparation.
24 Well, Your Honour, I don't know why Mr. Zecevic is on his feet,
25 because I'm now answering.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but I specifically said that I
2 can go at length about -- if we are going to talk about the specific
3 documents, I can go at length about that. And I don't think it's fair
4 that Ms. Korner is now using the exact documents addressing my general
5 request. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, I suppose that the -- and, of course, I
7 don't have it in front of me, but when the Defence would have requested
8 all documents signed by the Accused Stanisic, I assume that the
9 Prosecution would have been entitled to exclude from that, for instance,
10 if the minister had made a requisition for paper clips. So I think that
11 that is where Ms. Korner is.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I say, I'm dealing with the request.
13 And part of it is the desire to go through these documents, which would
14 take, I would imagine, something like half an hour. We've identified
15 three, ourselves, that personally if we'd known about them we would have
16 used, ourselves, but which are relevant and more.
17 Your Honours, the difficulty is this, and Your Honours have made
18 it clear that we're not going to be able to sit full time on this case
19 once the Haradinaj case starts. And although it may well be, and almost
20 certainly will be, the fact that Mr. Stanisic's case has finished before
21 the -- well, it will have finished before the recess, on the face of it,
22 we should be using such court time as we have available to us before the
23 other case starts. That's what we say should be happening.
24 As regards the question of witnesses, we would like to know,
25 please, which witnesses are not going to be called because we've already
1 spent some time preparing for witnesses and doing a lot of unnecessary
2 work on witnesses we're now told won't be coming. So we'd like to be
3 told, please, which are the two witnesses who the Defence are now no
4 longer proposing to call, although I can make a pretty good guess, I
6 Your Honours, as regards the adjournment, our view is, as I say,
7 that, A, leave should have been asked not to have the witness here to
8 start tomorrow, and, B, that the case should go on and use the time
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, anything in reply?
11 I seem to recall that we would have cautioned counsel against
12 approaching this matter of number of witnesses and the time of seeing it
13 as a sort of bank from which they could make deposits and withdrawals as
14 need be. You have -- of course, you have an outside number of hours
15 within which to complete your case, but that apart, I'm not sure that
16 your strongest point is that you would -- by -- because you would not be
17 calling two other witnesses, that that is a reason, sufficient reason,
18 to -- or one of the reasons that would support your argument.
19 But anything else in reply?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I discussed with Ms. Korner about the
21 Friday, and it's probably that she missed that I told her that we don't
22 have a witness before coming Tuesday.
23 JUDGE HALL: Forget about Friday. I'm talking about the Tuesday
24 and Wednesday, the two days that we're talking about.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but, Your Honours, I'm not -- I just wanted to
1 inform the Trial Chamber that that is our intention. We still haven't
2 decided but we intend to decide today or over the weekend about the two
3 witnesses that we are going to drop off our list.
4 However, the point, Your Honours, is the following: There is a
5 number of documents that we intended to show to these witnesses. Now,
6 these documents were never shown to the other witnesses and there is --
7 that's one of the reasons why we need the additional time to prepare
8 that, with all the other reasons which I already stated.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry, but either Mr. Zecevic is
10 dropping the witnesses, in which case he has to show the documents, or
11 he's not. And I would ask Your Honours to order that he tells us today
12 who he is not calling.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber appreciates that this is a matter in
15 which it has to rule urgently. But in the circumstances, we would
16 require the witness to be re-called to the stand and we will discuss this
17 during a break and give our ruling in the course of this afternoon's
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while we're on scheduling and
20 housekeeping matters, first of all, could we ask Your Honours to order
21 that the Zupljanin Defence give us a batting order, in other words, the
22 order in which they'll be calling their witnesses, as we appear to be
23 pretty close to the beginning of their case, even closer by the sound of
25 The other matter is this: That on - I've forgotten what day it
1 was - thank you, 2nd of June, Mr. Hannis cross-examined Mr. Andan on some
2 photographs of Dusko Malovic's Group and it was agreed that if
3 photographs were taken from the package which weren't relevant, the
4 document -- sorry, which was MFI'd, could have the MFI status lifted.
5 It's P2346. A document has been prepared which only contains the
6 photographs that Andan identified, so could we ask that that document be
7 numbered 20145.01.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, sorry, I read out the wrong number,
10 that's why I got confused myself, as ever, with these numbers. We'd like
11 P2346, the 65 ter instead of being 20145 will be 20145.01. And can we
12 have the MFI status lifted.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm terribly sorry, I don't quite understand what
14 Ms. Korner is doing with these numbers. But in any case, I believe P2346
15 should be de-MFI'd after it's uploaded with the photographs that I agreed
16 and we didn't object.
17 However, Your Honours, before that is done, we would like to be
18 given a copy of the -- these -- of this new exhibit that is going to be
19 so we know what we are -- what we are getting admitted into documents.
20 The actual pictures.
21 MS. KORNER: It's actually already been uploaded into e-court, so
22 the pictures are available for Mr. Zecevic to look at them.
23 JUDGE HALL: So the MFI qualification is removed.
24 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
25 JUDGE HALL: So could the usher please escort the witness back to
1 the stand.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I just checked the document, and it
3 still has 41 pages and all the irrelevant documents. I just opened it
4 right now. 2346, MFI.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Zecevic, if I may, the new document has been
6 released at 65 ter 20145.01, and that contains only nine pages.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Will that new document be given the -- now, the
8 problem is the following: We are taking the MFI from the document in
9 e-court, and the document in e-court, 2-whatever-6436, is the
10 41-pages document. We are not dealing with the 65 ter numbers in the
11 e-court. If it's a document which has been de-MFI'd, it should be the
12 only five or six pictures and not the whole document in e-court, that's
13 my problem.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Zecevic, since the order has been made a
16 couple of minutes ago, the document will be replaced within the next
17 couple of minutes.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: That is precisely why I asked that the Office of
19 the Prosecutor should have sent us the courtesy copy before they actually
20 offered it to be de-MFI'd.
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Orasanin, before -- good afternoon to you. I
22 remind you you're still on your oath.
23 Yes, Ms. Korner.
24 WITNESS: MILOMIR ORASANIN [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
2 Q. Right. Now, Mr. Orasanin, yesterday, to answer one single simply
3 question, you took up 24 lines of transcript and didn't answer the
4 question. I would like, in a rather hopeless fashion, I agree, to ask
5 you today, so that we can finish, to answer questions "yes" or "no" or "I
6 don't know," and only if it is absolutely vital to give any further
7 explanation. Is that clear?
8 A. Clear.
9 Q. Now, when we broke off yesterday, we were dealing with matters
10 relating to appointments, and I want to move -- by the minister, I should
11 say. But I want to move to what you said about Bijeljina and that was on
12 the first day of your testimony, at page 21886. And I think you told the
13 Court that you dropped in at Bijeljina; is that correct? Just let me
14 find the right part. Yes. Yes, Mr. Cvijetic said we should move on to
15 Brcko and Bijeljina, and you told him that you hadn't planned to be in
16 Bijeljina but you went to the police station, none of the chiefs were
17 there, "we found the chief of legal affairs who had nothing to do with
18 the operatives."
19 Now, before I spend any time showing you documents from
20 Bijeljina, are you saying that you did any kind of an inspection in
21 Bijeljina or simply that you passed through it?
22 A. I stated that we were going to Brcko, and Bijeljina was on the
23 way. We visited Brcko and on our way back we stopped at Bijeljina. We
24 didn't find Chief Jesuric there, but we found the chief of the
25 administration and legal department, Mr. Grkinic, and we called on him.
1 Q. No, stop there. Simple question: Did you do any kind of
2 inspection or did you just go through it?
3 A. We called at the station and stayed awhile with Grkinic. We had
4 coffee with the chief of the administrative and legal department at the
5 Bijeljina CSB or, actually, the Bijeljina SJB which had been set up.
6 Q. Right. So the answer to the question is no, you did not do any
7 inspection or visit it formally; is that right?
8 A. As soon as you entered the building, by virtue of that fact and
9 by -- as a consequence of spending time with one of the managers, we did
10 some work. But we didn't speak with any operatives, the heads of the
11 police, or the crime prevention service. That's the truth.
12 Q. All right. Well, because we -- I think the simplest thing is to
13 show you a document, please, which is 20161, tab 4B.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could I -- Mr. Orasanin, could I, in the
15 meantime, ask how long that visit took?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An hour.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. Now we're back to the matter that you seem to be disputing, that
20 certainly in April and May Mr. Jesuric was chief of the CSB. It's
21 addressed to the security -- sorry, sent by the Security Services Centre
22 Bijeljina and the Public Security Station Bijeljina, Ministry of the
23 Interior, to the minister and deputy minister that -- in the Security
24 Services Centre in Bijeljina. The security station situation has not
25 changed, the situation in Bijeljina is normal, et cetera, et cetera,
1 dated the 22nd of April, 1992.
2 When you went and visited in May, was the situation in Bijeljina
4 A. As far as I know, they were doing some work there but there were
5 some problems.
6 Q. All right. What were the problems that were identified to you by
7 whoever you spoke to there?
8 A. I know but I can't remember now whether it was that period or
9 later because the MUP had moved to Bijeljina, and that's why I'm a bit
10 confused, because there were some groups there. I remember that there
11 was an attack on the police station. If that was a month later or when
12 exactly, that's my confusion with regard to what I know.
13 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Orasanin, I just want to make this clear:
14 Are you disputing that for some period, and I fully understand that there
15 were a number of changes of CSB chiefs in Bijeljina, Mr. Jesuric was
16 chief of the CSB? Or if you don't know one way or the other, then please
17 say, "I do not know."
18 A. No, the confusion yesterday is logical. I do know, after all,
19 how it should be. The organisation of CSBs or the MUP is always parallel
20 to that of the judiciary, namely the courts. Wherever there are district
21 courts, there are centres. And in early May, I said yesterday that I had
22 documents with the organisation of district courts, where district courts
23 and prosecutor's offices are set up in Banja Luka, Doboj, Bijeljina,
24 Sarajevo, and Trebinje, and the organisation of CSBs was parallel. There
25 was a CSB in Bijeljina.
1 I was carrying some documents and those were instructions of the
2 Presidency and instructions on the setting up of courts and prosecutor's
3 offices. We carried them with us to the field and we distributed them to
4 police stations for them to have. It was early May. I have those
5 documents even now somewhere. I can find them. And that's the dilemma.
6 And there certainly was a CSB in Bijeljina.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. Because -- because that was the organisation.
9 Q. All right. Stop. Honestly, I really think you're not listening
10 to the question. The question was: Do you dispute - I hope that's clear
11 in translation - that Mr. Jesuric, for a period, was chief of the CSB in
12 Bijeljina? That's the only question.
13 A. He was chief of the Bijeljina SJB. And when the centre was set
14 up, well, it's logical, but I can't remember now because they were in the
15 same building.
16 Q. All right. So -- thank you.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, in that case, as this is suddenly,
18 after two years of trial, become an issue, I'm going to ask that this
19 document now be marked and admitted as evidence on the face of this
20 document that Mr. Jesuric was chief of the CSB.
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic? Mr. Cvijetic?
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have our usual
23 objection to this document and to the introduction of documents at this
24 stage of cross-examination. I wish to reiterate that it's still our
25 position that this document cannot be tendered now. I have already said
1 so yesterday when I referred to the standards set in the Prlic case.
2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I've made it clear: Nobody could
3 have anticipated that suddenly, for no good reason that I can see, this
4 witness has chosen to dispute that Mr. Jesuric was chief of the CSB.
5 And, Your Honour, it's obviously important that if we have documents that
6 have -- otherwise really are of no relevance whatsoever, that show that
7 he was, we should be allowed to enter them into evidence at this stage.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, could you remind me the tab number,
10 MS. KORNER: It's tab 4B. Yes, 4B.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may just comment, Your Honours, I'm sorry that
12 I'm interrupting, but this sounds to me like a document testing the
13 credibility of the witness. If that is the purpose of this document,
14 then we say we don't have a problem admitting this document. But if this
15 document is to show something else, Ms. Korner produced -- or the Office
16 of the Prosecutor, Your Honours, at the very beginning of the case,
17 produced the huge maps explaining the structure of the MUP, so they knew
18 that they have to prove that these persons were holding those positions,
19 so, therefore, saying that they were not aware that this might be an
20 issue in the case is, with all due respect, not true, actually.
21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it's perfectly true because
22 admitted into evidence are pretty pictures of the CSB with those pretty
23 men which say under it, if it I can just get my copy, and nobody has ever
24 suggested to us it is the obligation of the Defence, when they know that
25 we're putting documents in as truth of their contents, if they dispute
1 it, to say so. This document --
2 JUDGE HALL: Well, Ms. Korner, against that background, and the
3 document you referred to being already in evidence, isn't it -- I don't
4 understand the present exchange between yourself and the witness on the
5 stand to make that a fact in issue, and, therefore, wouldn't it be --
6 isn't the admission of this limited to his credibility and therefore --
7 MS. KORNER: Well, I think I'm going mad actually slightly. This
8 whole thing has been reversed. We have proved our case. It is the
9 obligation of the Defence to put the case. If it is the Defence case
10 that they challenge that Mr. Jesuric, for a short period of time -- and
11 you'll see, Your Honours, if you look at the diagram, that there were
12 huge numbers of changes. It's P881.
13 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I know I tend to have the -- I have a
14 tendency to be elliptical in my speech, but basically I'm agreeing with
16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, but I think it's incumbent upon
17 the Defence to make it clear that is not their case, that Mr. Jesuric was
18 not at some stage chief of the CSB.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, we never said so. We never said
20 so. We never said that we are challenging that fact. It concerns the
21 fresh evidence that Ms. Korner wants to introduce through this witness.
22 We say she can't do that; she has to explain according to the standard
23 which this Trial Chamber adopted. If she wants to introduce the new
24 evidence, she has to provide an explanation. And that is the point. But
25 if --
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, need we confuse ourselves by going down
2 that road? If in fact there is no issue as to whether Mr. Jesuric was
3 chief of CSB security, and the only point is what has arisen in
4 cross-examination out of the mouth of this witness, [indiscernible] even
5 a question of credibility. So need we exercise ourselves about --
6 MR. ZECEVIC: But that is precisely what I said, Your Honours. I
7 said if it goes for the credibility of the witness, we do not object.
8 Now, but then Ms. Korner went further on that. That's my point.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: So the document is admitted and we move on.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2352, Your Honours.
12 MS. KORNER: Right.
13 Q. Brcko, Mr. Orasanin. So again you say Brcko, according to you at
14 page 21888, the crime service wasn't organised, that -- well, actually,
15 you don't say much except you had a flat tyre. Right.
16 MS. KORNER: Just so that we don't have any discussion about
17 Brcko, can we have a look, please, at 10B, which is 20166, please.
18 Q. Do you agree that's a list of salaries for the Brcko Police in
19 the period from the 1st of May to 31st of May?
20 A. Yes. This is the same case as in the stations we looked at
22 MS. KORNER: Last page in each, please.
23 Q. Apparently Brcko in May had some 56 police officers working
24 there, so, would you agree, fully functioning police station?
25 A. I was speaking about this, perhaps I can explain additionally,
1 yesterday and the day before about these payrolls. When we went out in
2 the field, to my mind this was not the real situation. I think that some
3 names are fictitious. This should be examined in detail. I know some
4 police officers who came to see me and they had been in Belgrade for
5 several months and then they were put on the list as of early April and
6 they had only arrived in July. It isn't really the payrolls that
7 [indiscernible] to me when I went to the stations but only the lists in
8 accordance with the rule book on internal organisation.
9 I may not be competent to speak about this, but we spoke about a
10 case yesterday. Two police officers who had arrived later but were
11 retroactively put on the list as being there since early April but they
12 had only come in May or July respectively. One's name is
13 Branko Glamocic [phoen] and the other was Rajko something. And there
14 were dozens of such cases.
15 In Brcko I didn't see these people. I didn't see any in Skelani
16 either. To my mind, this is all fictitious. We were the first team that
17 went to the field for the MUP -- or from the MUP.
18 Q. Tell us exactly how long you carried out your, in inverted
19 commas, visit in Brcko, would you, Mr. Orasanin?
20 A. I must be honest because I'm such a man. I said that our visits
21 were such that we wanted to do something and make a snap-shot of the
22 situation, see how people worked there. And we wanted them to see us
23 because we were the first who had arrived there. And we found a chaotic
24 situation. We were in Brcko for something over an hour. We went to the
25 police station, found the duty officer, and I remember this man
1 Gavrilovic, I think that his first name is Pero, he came to meet us.
2 Q. No -- stop. You told us all this. I don't want to hear it
3 again, please. You were there for one hour. Right. You don't accept
4 the evidence of the payrolls. Have a look at one other document, then,
6 MS. KORNER: Which is, sorry, 13A, which is ... oh, it's a
7 Defence document, 1D547.
8 Q. This is from Brcko, minutes of the meeting of the specialist
9 board of the Serb SJB held on the 2nd of June.
10 MS. KORNER: If we go, please, to the last page in both B/C/S and
12 Q. Recognise the names of Mr. Veselic and Mr. Lugonjic?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. All right.
15 MS. KORNER: If we go, please, to the third page in English and
16 it's the fourth page in B/C/S, please.
17 Q. The earlier part deals with the jobs that would be done by the
18 various officials.
19 "Considering the fact that policemen at this moment are engaged
20 in providing physical security for working organisations and other vital
21 facilities on the territory of the municipality, Brcko SJB had agreed
22 with the War Presidency to have our forces withdrawn. In accordance with
23 this agreement, the number of personnel at the police station will be
24 increased and consequently the normal functioning of the SJB will be
25 ensured, meaning shift patrols in the field. Communication with
1 policemen through USW devices, all available radio equipment will be
2 checked and used."
3 Next heading, "Crime." "The affairs and task of the field of
4 crime have been functioning from the very division, i.e., the
5 establishing of the Brcko Serb SJB."
6 All right. Do you accept that you could be wrong in the
7 conclusion you drew in your brief one-hour visit to Brcko about the
8 functioning of Brcko SJB during the second half of May or thereabouts?
9 A. I can say that during that hour we spent there we mostly dealt
10 with the jobs of the uniformed police, and I was there to see about crime
11 enforcement. I met Gavrilovic, who was in charge of crime enforcement.
12 And these are my duties with regard to the crime prevention service.
13 That's why I'm not familiar with the jobs of the uniformed police. And
14 we didn't have time there because we were chased away by sniper fire.
15 That's the essence. We didn't really work there, that's why it was such
16 a short visit.
17 Q. Thank you. That will do. All right.
18 Now I want to deal with the -- your evidence about the fact that
19 various stations did not belong to -- were not allocated to any CSBs. We
20 dealt already with what you had to say about Zvornik.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look, please, at a document --
22 Now, Your Honours, this has not been translated because it's one
23 of these financial documents, but we weren't aware that there was going
24 to be this kind of evidence. So it will have to come up in B/C/S only,
25 and obviously if I wanted to have it admitted as an exhibit, we'd have to
1 get a translation. But it's a very simple point I want to make.
2 Could we have, please, on the screen the document which is at
3 tab 7.1, which has been given the number 20168.
4 Q. Now, is that a document dated the 7th of May, 1992, and does it
5 come from what is said to be the CSB Trebinje?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And does that show the --
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a moment,
9 please. From the witness's testimony so far, we have been able to
10 conclude that while he was affiliated with the Ministry of the Interior,
11 he did not carry out any inspections in Trebinje in the Security Services
12 Centre there. So I suppose he cannot speak to the contents of the
13 document because he probably never saw the document before nor he
14 inspected the situation there, and he also did not testify -- he did not
15 tell us anything about that particular Security Services Centre.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this has got nothing to do with any
17 inspections that he did. This is to do with whether what he called the
18 eastern municipalities or SJBs were affiliated to any CSBs, and that's
19 the matter I'm dealing with. I'm showing him this document, and I'm
20 going to ask him if he still wants to adhere to the evidence he gave
21 about it.
22 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, because we haven't got a translation, could you just read
25 out, if you can, and if you can't I'll give you a hard copy, what the --
1 after we can -- what the first line says after the date. Could you read
2 it out in your language. Perhaps we could highlight that part for him if
3 he is having difficulty. What does that say, please? Read it out.
4 A. "Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo."
6 Q. Then could you read, please, the next few lines.
7 A. "Here enclosed please find lists of employees who are present at
8 the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina and who are employed in public security stations of the
10 Security Services Centre in Trebinje."
11 Q. Thank you. Right. Can we just deal, please, then, with -- well,
12 perhaps we can deal fairly quickly with which stations did belong to it.
13 What's the first station there? Just read it out, please.
14 A. Srecko, Djeric.
15 Q. Not the name, the name of the station.
16 A. Trebinje. Trebinje.
17 MS. KORNER: Can we go on, please, to page 3.
18 Q. What's the station at the top there?
19 A. This is the Gacko Public Security Station.
20 Q. Next one.
21 A. Ljubinje SJB.
22 Q. One below.
23 A. Bileca SJB.
24 MS. KORNER: Well, there's so many of them. Perhaps if we just
25 go to page 6 to identify the one I want to identify. Page 6, please.
1 Q. What is that one in the middle?
2 A. Visegrad SJB.
3 Q. Wasn't that one of the SJBs you said didn't belong to any CSB?
4 A. When I spoke about my visit to Visegrad, Foca, Rudo, I said that
5 they were left in the cold, that they had not received any assistance.
6 We were the only ones who came. It was an obligation of the CSB to help
7 those stations, but we were the only ones who arrived from the Ministry
8 of the Interior to get stock of their situation. This is what we covered
9 in our report. That's what I meant when I said that they were not
10 covered, that in organisational terms they were left out in the cold.
11 As for the legality of the whole thing, I would say that you can
12 put anything on paper. But there, on the ground, they all complained
13 that nobody had visited them before September 1992 when we arrived in the
15 Q. All right.
16 A. I apologise, I am -- I did not deal with organisation. We
17 performed our duties and we realised that there were some negative things
18 at stake in terms of the operation of the SJB in Trebinje because nobody
19 had arrived to visit them for five or six months before we arrived,
20 although it was their duty to do that.
21 Q. Well, the CSB Trebinje had enough, if you like - what's the word
22 you used? - oversight over them or - sorry, trying to find the word you
23 used - assistance to at least get their payment organised, hadn't it?
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours. How
25 is the witness supposed to know that? What is the foundation on which
1 Ms. Korner concludes that there were enough operatives, there were enough
2 employees who could have carried out that task?
3 MS. KORNER: It's not -- Mr. Cvijetic is picking up problems from
4 Mr. Orasanin. That's not the question I asked. The question I put to
5 Mr. Orasanin is that they had enough involvement to arrange for the
6 payment, judging by this document.
7 Q. Would you agree with that, Mr. Orasanin?
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours --
9 MS. KORNER: No, this is Mr. Cvijetic's witness. We cannot have
10 people bobbing up and down like this.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand fully, but there is a problem
12 obviously with the translation because Mr. Cvijetic got obviously the
13 different question. The point, I'm trying to assist. If don't want me
14 to assist, I will not. And I'm not asking to say anything.
15 The point of matter is, Your Honours, Ms. Korner is basing her
16 document on the document she can't read, and this document doesn't have
17 anything to do with the payments. That's the point.
18 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I had Mr. Orasanin read out the beginning of
19 the document so we could see what it was about.
20 "... please find lists of employees who are present at the
21 Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic ... who are employed in
22 public security stations of the Security Services Centre in Trebinje."
23 Yes, I take the point. It's not exactly a financial document.
24 It comes from a financial thing but it's not exactly. I'm told -- just a
1 Can we go to the -- sorry, can we go to the very end of the
2 document, I think that may be why I thought they were payment. To do
3 with -- ah, that's right. Your Honours, I'm sorry, I'd forgotten that
4 attached to the end of the document.
5 Q. Do you agree that's a payment slip of some kind, Mr. Orasanin?
6 A. This is an order issued to the accounting department. It may be
7 in respect of daily allowances, per diems, or things like that.
8 Q. All right. Well, isn't that the CSB sending it up to the
9 headquarters to have it dealt with?
10 MS. KORNER: Can we go on to the next document, please. Or was
11 that the last one? Yes, sorry, that was the last. Right. Can we go to,
12 in the document, please, it's the -- no, can we go to page 10, please, in
13 the document. 10th page. Yes.
14 Q. More payment documents, would you agree? Do you see there --
15 JUDGE HALL: I'm sorry to interrupt. We are advised by the
16 Court Officer that for technical reasons we must take the break now for a
17 half hour.
18 MS. KORNER: Right. Can I just finish this.
19 Q. Do you see there the payment being claimed, Mr. Orasanin, for the
20 Konjic SJB, the Visegrad SJB, and the SJB Foca?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. KORNER: Does Mr. Zecevic now accept that this is a claim for
23 payment? Does Mr. Cvijetic now accept that?
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see a link
25 with the witness's statement as to what he noticed in those SJBs. He
1 didn't talk about money, whether there was a lack of money. He only
2 spoke about the fact that CSB Trebinje, Trebinje staff never toured any
3 of the stations and that they were left or that -- at least that they
4 felt left out in the cold. And this is also in his report.
5 JUDGE HALL: We'll take the break.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, if we have time at the end of today, I
10 wonder if we could return to the question of timing all over as regards
11 to the Zupljanin case. And I've been discussing matters with Mr. Krgovic
12 and I think it may assist all of us if at least we can raise the
13 situation with Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Korner.
15 While the witness is on his way back to the stand, we have
16 considered Mr. Zecevic's application for a delay for the reasons that he
17 advanced. And bearing in mind that -- the witness that he has scheduled,
18 that he would -- should, in all fairness, be allowed some time to deal
19 with what may be new documents with which he has to consider, but bearing
20 also in mind the fact that we are sitting afternoons next week and we are
21 not scheduled to sit tomorrow, Monday being a holiday, so we would resume
22 on Wednesday afternoon. We think that he should be allowed -- he may be
23 allowed a day, which is Tuesday, and we would pick up on Wednesday with
24 this matter.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, what about letting us know
3 whether -- who the witnesses are that he's going to drop? Are
4 Your Honours going to give him a time on that one too?
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, echoing Ms. Korner's request, it would
7 be helpful, if you're so inclined, if you could do that as soon as you're
8 able to. It would assist all of us.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: As I said, Your Honours, I will over the weekend
10 and we will inform the Trial Chamber and the parties about our decision
11 on Monday. Thank you.
12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... on Monday.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Tuesday, because Monday's not a working day.
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Mr. Orasanin, in the course of your evidence --
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, may I be excused because I
17 need to inform the VWS --
18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. In the course of your evidence on Monday, you told the Court that
22 the places that you visited, and this is at page 21901, like Visegrad and
23 Foca, Brcko, Rudo, Cajnice, the prosecutor's office wasn't functioning at
24 all and neither was the court. I'd like you to have a look, please, at
25 the prosecutor's log-book for Brcko. And you were visiting Brcko in
1 May of 1992; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. KORNER: It's tab 1A and it's 65 ter 1537. Could it be -- I
4 think it's easier if he has the printed-out copy. And, yes, it's
5 0615-2066. Page 8 in B/C/S. We've only got it in B/C/S; we don't have a
7 Q. Not terribly easy to see either on the screen or in the printed
8 copy, but does that show a list of cases for May or partway through May?
9 I don't know whether we can ... dates are not terribly easy --
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 Q. Just have a quick look through it, Mr. Orasanin, and just confirm
12 that that shows cases being listed with dates in May, and I think you'll
13 find it goes on over a number of pages. If we look at number --
14 MS. KORNER: Can we ... let's start with -- sorry, can we go back
15 to page 4. I think that's the easiest. I think Your Honours will find
16 it easier to find the dates. And can we have page 4 up on the screen.
17 At the top you'll find 206 -- 0615-2062.
18 Q. Now, I should shown -- I should have given this to you last
20 Can you -- all I'm asking you to do is have a quick look through,
21 and can you confirm, Mr. Orasanin, that it appears that the prosecutor's
22 office was, in fact, working through this period? That's all I'm asking
23 you to do.
24 Mr. Orasanin, I know that it's -- can you confirm that it does
25 appear that the prosecutor's office was actually working? And, indeed,
1 some of the clearest dates we can see are those in April, the rest, I'm
2 afraid, are not so clear.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, just a moment.
4 Here you can see that the year is 1993, that the prosecutor's office
5 functioned in 1993, as far as I can tell.
6 MS. KORNER: Actually, no. I know it's -- I appreciate it's very
7 difficult to see on the screen, but if you look at the page we're looking
8 at, it's clearly 1992. Look at the continuation. Look at the third
9 column, please. It's much, much clearer.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's when documents were
11 received. We heard testimonies to the effect that offices were open to
12 receive documents. But if you look further in the right-hand side
13 columns, you will see that the prosecutor's office actually started
14 looking into cases and acting upon them only in 1993, at least this is
15 what I can tell from the excerpt that is on the screen now.
16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, we've heard evidence about this
17 in any event. I'm just, as I say, putting this document to Mr. Orasanin
18 to see whether or not he wishes to change his assertion. If he doesn't,
19 that's it.
20 Q. Mr. Orasanin, do you wish to change your assertion that the
21 prosecutor's offices were not working?
22 Mr. Orasanin?
23 A. What I was saying about my report and what is contained in my
24 report, this is what I told you about the municipalities of Foca, Rudo,
25 Cajnice, and Visegrad. This is what we put in our report. We said that
1 the prosecutor's office and the court were not organised. Our order to
2 them was to prepare all the criminal reports, and they told us that all
3 the doors were locked. In those municipalities, I'm 99 per cent sure
4 that the prosecutor's offices and the courts did not function and --
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stop, stop, stop,
6 Mr. Orasanin, please. I asked -- I agree, but you threw in Brcko, and
7 I'm merely asking you whether you now wish to change your classification
8 of Brcko as one where the prosecutor's office was not working?
9 A. When we were there on the 15th of May, no investigations were
10 going on by the prosecutor's office or the court. The police could not
11 carry out investigations because it is the prosecutor's office and the
12 court that order the police to carry out investigations, hence the
13 problem. That's why I concluded that they were not functioning.
14 Pursuant to the Law on Criminal Procedure, the police cannot carry out
15 any investigations until the moment the investigative judge and the
16 prosecutor 's office issue their order to the crime investigating police.
17 That's why I concluded that they were not operational.
18 Q. All right. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, please. Who told you
19 in Brcko in your one-hour's visit that the prosecutor's office was not
21 A. We spent an hour talking to Mr. Gavrilovic, Pero Gavrilovic; he
22 was in charge of national security and the crime prevention service, as
23 far as I can remember, and that was also within our purview. And later
24 on I read some instructions pursuant to which he became the head of the
25 crime prevention services. When we were there, there was a gap, a vacuum
1 of sorts. Later on he was appointed the head of the crime prevention
2 services, as far as I can remember.
3 Q. Honest, Mr. Orasanin, I simply asked you: Who told you this?
4 The answer was Mr. Gavrilovic. Full stop. Not what happened to him then
5 or afterwards.
6 Now, I simply want to ask you whether you wish to change your
7 opinion, having seen that there was a prosecutor's office log-book being
8 kept for cases at that time in respect of Brcko. Leave aside all the
9 other places you mentioned.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just used a
11 magnifying-glass to look at this log-book. And despite my best wishes, I
12 simply cannot identify the dates that Ms. Korner has just referred to.
13 And it is a big question whether the witness can answer Ms. Korner's
14 questions the way they are put. The witness is testifying about the
15 facts, about the situation that he found and the messages that he was
16 conveyed, and I believe that his evidence should be restricted only to
17 that, what he saw and what he was told and what problems he encountered.
18 That's the kind of problems that he reported and conveyed. He was not in
19 the prosecutor's office to see whether this is a log-book for 1992 and so
20 on and so forth. I believe that we cannot go any further with this
21 witness when it comes to interpreting the contents of this document.
22 MS. KORNER: All right. Yes --
23 JUDGE HALL: Whereas you're perfectly correct, Mr. Cvijetic, I
24 suppose, in fairness to the witness, if Ms. Korner at the appropriate
25 time wishes to remind the Chamber of apparent contradictions, she is
1 allowing him the opportunity to speak to it. How far she wishes to go
2 with this is a matter for her, but that's the purpose. But on principle,
3 of course, it appears to me that you're correct.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, as I've made it clear the Defence
5 on a number of occasions, I'm obliged to put my case to the witness. And
6 our case is that his assertions over this are wrong.
7 Your Honours, the best thing I can do is for the moment ask that
8 the document be marked MFI because I think it's right that without
9 getting -- there's no translation for it, in any event, and without
10 getting better copies and a translation, but just so that we have it
11 marked and then, if I may, I'd make the application to put it in. I know
12 there's already been evidence about it, in any event, from the witness
13 who came to talk about the prosecutor's log-books.
14 JUDGE HALL: Marked, pending translation.
15 MS. KORNER: Pending translation and a full application to put it
16 in, but just marking it for the moment so we know what we're talking
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I
19 don't see any grounds to introduce anything through this witness. Not
20 even to mark it for identification. Who is going to interpret the
21 document for us once this witness is gone?
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic --
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] One more thing, Your Honours, if I
24 may. On the list of the Prosecutor's witnesses when the Prosecutor
25 presented its case, there were witnesses who could have testified about
1 this document but they were withdrawn. How can we now interpret this
2 document through this witness? How can we tender it and admit it if the
3 witness that we are dealing with now is unable to say anything about it?
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, may I suggest you hold your fire
5 until -- Ms. Korner's indicated she wants it marked pending both the
6 translation and the full application to put it in. So may I suggest you
7 hold your fire until she makes her full application. In the meantime, I
8 suppose, so it doesn't get lost, we mark it.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2353, marked for identification,
10 Your Honours.
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. Now, let's deal with what you say about if no prosecutor's office
13 was working, the police couldn't investigate. Are you asserting that
14 once the police had put in a preliminary criminal report to the
15 prosecutor's office they could do no more and indeed - well, let's deal
16 with that one first, could do no more to investigate?
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the first
18 time I hear of a preliminary criminal report. I have no idea what that
19 might be. There is no such thing under our law.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Once the police had put in the criminal report, which is the
22 first stage, to the prosecutor's office, is it your assertion that the
23 police were prohibited from doing any further investigation until
24 directed by the prosecutor?
25 A. No. The police is duty-bound to collect information necessary to
1 shed light on the criminal offence. But I said that the police cannot
2 work without the approval of a judge and a prosecutor's office. I'm
3 referring to investigative activities for which approval is required.
4 But the police are duty-bound to collect information necessary to
5 identify the perpetrator of a crime. But how do we do that without an
6 on-site investigation? And the rule is that a good on-site investigation
7 accounts for 50 per cent of the success in finding the perpetrator.
8 That's what I'm talking about.
9 Q. That may or may not be the case, but, as I understand it, you do
10 accept the police are duty-bound to carry on investigating to the extent
11 that they can, if you like, without a prosecutor directing them.
12 A. I accept. But when we speak about serious crimes, murder and
13 others, then special activities must be carried out and an on-site
14 investigation must be performed. I think it was Article 154 of the
15 Law on Criminal Procedure that the investigative magistrate orders the
16 carrying out of investigative activities. That was a provision of the
17 law. It has been changed meanwhile. So the investigative magistrate and
18 the prosecutor could entrust these activities formerly but can no longer
19 do so.
20 Q. Right. And indeed you yourself said that when you saw the cases
21 in Doboj where there were unknown perpetrators in murder cases, you
22 yourself said that there had to be a special force put together to
23 investigate these cases, didn't you?
24 A. No, I said that operative groups must be set up. And the events
25 in Doboj that I saw in the log-book, there was also a register of on-site
1 investigations. Members of the MUP carried out on-site investigations.
2 Which is -- these are not mandatory for all crimes, but they are in case
3 of serious crimes such as murder and some others.
4 Whether the police got an approval from the investigative
5 magistrate to go on site, I don't know, because it's the investigative
6 magistrate who is in charge of these activities and the police only
7 provides assistance. And here we saw that the on-site investigations
8 were conducted and then we tasked our operatives to examine that. I may
9 not be fully clear, but that's how we acted then. Nowadays, the crime
10 detection service has smaller -- hasn't so a wide authority as before the
12 Q. Don't worry about nowadays or historical days. Right. Thank
14 Now let's deal with these Doboj -- that was the one inspection
15 that you concede was an inspection. Firstly, did you notify Doboj CSB
16 and Doboj SJB in advance that you were coming to do the inspection? And
17 that just requires "yes" or "no."
18 A. That's a rule, to send a dispatch and information saying that the
19 inspectors are coming. But if there are no communication lines ...
20 Q. I'm sorry, did you or didn't you? Or can't you remember? "Yes,"
21 "no," or "I can't remember"?
22 A. I don't know. I don't remember. Maybe Nikola Milanovic did that
23 because he wrote the -- these decisions.
24 Q. You told the police in -- oh, police. You told the OTP in
25 interview, in fact, on the topic of communications - and this is at
1 page 51 of your interview - that -- you were -- in fact, you were being
2 asked about reports, and you said that -- sorry, this is the bottom of
3 page 50, you were being asked in April, May, up to, I don't know,
4 September, let's say, about CSB sending reports, there were such
5 obligations, but now whether they had technical possibilities to do so, I
6 doubt it. They from Doboj could not send dispatch or information over
7 here, but the centre should have -- was supposed to have that. You have
8 this dispatch, and you were referring to -- went by courier.
9 "Q. That's what I'm actually saying, that even though the
10 communication was bad, there would always be possibility to send
11 something through messenger, through a courier."
12 And you said:
13 "Yes, I suppose, during the first three months it was difficult,
14 but traffic connections were cut, let alone telecommunication lines had
15 not been established yet."
16 So do you agree that couriers could be used even if telephone
17 lines or radios were not working?
18 A. Well, what I know, I was saying in the context of the
19 impossibility to travel by road. It wasn't possible to go there until
20 early July. I'm unfamiliar with these facts. A courier must also travel
21 by road. Only if they fly in a helicopter, then not.
22 Q. All right. Well, let's deal with the content of your visit to
24 MS. KORNER: Can we go into private session for a moment.
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
1 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
24 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
25 Q. Now, we see that you went to Doboj on the 14th of August, 1992,
1 and the first thing, apparently, you did was have a meeting with the
2 Doboj CSB and SJB public security operatives; is that right?
3 A. As far as I remember, it was on the 25th. That's when we were in
5 Q. Well, that's what you say -- I know you say that, but did
6 Mr. Minic do a meeting, an inspection, at Doboj with you?
7 A. There was Mr. Minic and Nikola Milanovic too.
8 Q. Absolutely. And it's hardly likely that he did a separate visit
9 before that, is it? Indeed, well ...
10 A. Well, as far as I remember, he went there on a number of
11 occasions. There were mixed teams; uniformed police and operatives.
12 Q. Right. Well, let's see if this jogs your memory, shall we? You
13 say you were there for two days, and this visit, as recorded, was two
14 days. The following day --
15 MS. KORNER: Can we go to the next page, please.
16 Q. There was this meeting at the Dom Milicije in Doboj; do you
17 remember that?
18 A. As far as I remember, one meeting was held at the Dom Milicij e.
19 It was a large meeting. But I seem to remember that Cedo Tosic was
20 there, or somebody from the uniformed police.
21 Q. Well, what I want to ask you about is, was a discussion in the
22 meeting that you were at about the monitoring of genocide and war crimes
23 against the Serbian people, which you will see --
24 MS. KORNER: Can we move the bottom up slightly, the page,
25 because it's quite difficult to see in B/C/S. Right. Thank you.
1 Q. Was there such discussion?
2 A. I don't remember attending the meeting. Somebody was there, but
3 I think it was Cedo Tosic, one of these --
4 Q. Sorry, are you saying that Mr. Minic, Mr. Milanovic, and
5 Mr. Tosic went to Doboj on the 14th and the 15th for two days and then
6 you and Mr. Minic and Milanovic went back on the 24th? What would be the
7 point of that? Well, firstly, is that what you're saying?
8 A. Well, I don't remember attending the meeting at the Dom Milicije.
9 I know that there was a meeting there, it was a large meeting, but I
10 wasn't there.
11 Q. Well, where were you? Where were you?
12 A. There was a regional meeting there but, as far as I remember,
13 another team went. They were representatives of the SJBs from the
14 region, and it was a mixed team, as far as I know. That's what I know,
15 what I remember. And that's what I say in my first -- said in my first
16 statement. There was a question about the number and about someone
17 coming from Derventa and Brod and such. The investigator asked me about
18 it. But I'm sure I wasn't at that meeting. And there was discussion
19 about war crimes.
20 Q. Look. I'm sorry, Mr. Orasanin, I don't follow, now, what you're
21 saying. You, Minic, Milanovic go off to Doboj to conduct what you say
22 was really the only proper inspection that you did in August. Are you
23 now saying that this record of this meeting at the Dom Milicije is a
24 completely separate visit?
25 A. I don't remember that we were at this meeting where the
1 representatives of the SJBs of the region were present.
2 Q. Look. Just stop --
3 A. And that was at the Dom Milicije.
4 Q. The record says this is a "meeting at the Dom Milicije in Doboj
5 with the operative personnel on the territory of the Doboj CSB." It is a
6 record, I can assure you -- well, right, never mind. I'll rephrase that
8 Were you or were you not present at this meeting?
9 A. I remember that I attended only the meeting in the Doboj building
10 and we only spent the night at the Dom Milicije. It's possible that I
11 know some of these things when we went to Banja Luka.
12 Q. All right. Because, you see, you told us, when you were giving
13 your evidence, that you had a short meeting with Mr. Bjelosevic.
14 MS. KORNER: Can we just can through this to the next page,
16 Q. What was discussed there also was working and co-operating with
17 the prosecutor's offices and courts in Doboj. Was there discussion at
18 the meeting that you attended of co-operation with the prosecutor's
20 A. I remember that we visited Doboj. But that we initiated a
21 meeting? We spoke to the president of the higher court there whose name
22 was Sinisa, what was his last name? He's an attorney now. That was our
23 initiative, and that's what I spoke about. And the prosecutor and they
24 were presenting -- oh, now I remember the name: Sinisa Djordjevic. They
25 were speaking about making sure that the accused is present at the
1 proceedings. But whether he was present ... there may be some confusion,
2 but I remember this: Sinisa Djordjevic was a president of the higher
3 court or prosecutor --
4 Q. Do you know, honestly, Mr. Orasanin, this is a discussion not
5 with members of the prosecutor's office or whatever, but whether there
6 was discussion at the police meeting about co-operation with the
7 prosecutor's office. Now, do you recall that happening?
8 A. Whenever we have a meeting, we make a snap-shot of the situation
9 and discuss the co-operation between the police and the courts. This is
10 our basic task. The job wouldn't be done if we hadn't reviewed these
11 possibilities. It would have only been a half success. I remember what
12 it says here, that the man spoke about the problems of the court and the
13 prosecutor's office --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, thank you,
15 Mr. Orasanin. Thank you. I'm suggesting to you in the clearest possible
16 terms, Mr. Orasanin, that that visit to Doboj was with you, Milanovic,
17 Minic, Tosic, and yourself, the four of you went there. There weren't
18 two visits to Doboj, there was just the one visit. And you were present
19 at this meeting, weren't you?
20 A. No, no. You mentioned Tosic and our presence. I'm
21 1.000 per cent sure that we weren't there. Cedo Tosic never went with
22 me. Actually, later, once we had seen that the problems were those of
23 the uniformed police, we weren't authorised to do the work of the
24 uniformed police because the problems were greater. And we said, Let's
25 make a snap-shot of this and then we'll return to Bijeljina and then --
1 Q. No. Leave Bijeljina, please, alone. We're talking about your
2 full inspection of Doboj. And it was -- I'm sorry, it was either
3 Cedomir Tosic or Radenko Vujicic.
4 A. Radenko Vujicic, never. I state that with full responsibility.
5 We're wasting time. I remember it as if it had been yesterday. I allow
6 for the possibility of some confusion though.
7 You mentioned Ostoja Minic. When there were investigations in
8 2005, I spoke to him about some things and I was trying to convince him
9 that I was in Banja Luka with them. And he tried to convince me that I
10 never went to Banja Luka, that it was just him and Nikola. And that's
11 the truth. Because when we spoke to the investigators, I contacted
12 Ostoja Minic by phone. These people we spoke about, it's not a secret.
13 Anybody could know what we spoke about. That's the kind of man I am.
14 Q. So do I understand this: That you and Mr. Minic in 2005 got
15 together to discuss what you had been doing in 1992?
16 A. No, no. No need. We already discussed this topic. And whatever
17 we did was very professional. And I'm sure that's the way they do things
18 even now. And that's -- this is the way they worked earlier, when we
19 speak about the team of Nikola Milanovic and the regions around Foca,
20 Visegrad, and Doboj.
21 Q. What makes you say it was the 24th of August that you went there
22 and not the 18th?
23 A. I remember, after that other teams went. After ten days, they
24 went. There was a problem regarding the reserve police. The minister
25 issued an order with this regard, and somebody told me to look into that
1 as well. I don't know who it was. Maybe Macar or somebody else.
2 Q. Where is the report of your full inspection on the 24th of August
3 with Mr. Minic?
4 A. It was submitted to the administration and I believe that it was
5 drafted by Nikola Milanovic.
6 Q. Listen, I'm asking you where it is.
7 A. At the administration for crime prevention. And as for the mixed
8 teams, that went -- the line that they followed was the department for
9 crime prevention, then the administration for crime prevention. For
10 example, Cedo Tosic, who is a uniformed inspector, he went with them.
11 And I believe that they also attended the meeting, because the entire
12 team attended the meeting, as far as I can remember.
13 Q. Right. I'm simply asking, did you keep a copy of that report,
14 because the only report we have, apart from these notes of a meeting on
15 the 18th -- the 14th and 15th of August at Doboj, is one that's in
17 A. When we were in Doboj, a report was drafted, stock was taken of
18 the situation, and as far as I know and as far as I can tell Your
19 Honours, that was done in a professional manner.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. I claim that.
22 Q. So your evidence is -- all right. Let's cut this short because I
23 don't want to waste time on a document. You say you didn't go with
24 Mr. Minic, and whoever else was there, and Milanovic on the 14th and
25 15th of August, you went separately on the 24th of August and conducted
1 your inspection?
2 A. I'm sure that there were three of us. I'm sure that there were
3 three of us. We had a car. We had some problems with the
4 authorisation --
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, no, I really --
6 A. -- and we were parked over in Brcko and I remember that because
7 we had --
8 Q. No. That's your evidence, is it? Two visits, four -- according
9 to this, and 24th. Now, just tell me how it is you're so sure it was the
10 24th? Do you have a diary for 1992?
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, the witness explained
12 how he knows. He explained the link. He explained it during my
13 examination, during yours as well, and he referred to that authorisation.
14 And he mentioned several times how come he remembers that it was on the
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was shown Brcko -- the
17 authorisation was issued in Brcko, and it was signed on Macar's behalf by
18 Nikola, I believe, because in 1992 there were huge problems, official IDs
19 were not valid, i.e., there were other people who carried them, so we had
20 to have a piece of paper, a document. And I told you about those
21 official IDs. When we were stopped by a soldier in uniform and he told
22 us, I don't care about your official ID, I have one of them. And he
23 showed us a blank ID that was the -- that was looted in a depot where
24 they were kept --
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not
1 activated] ... yes, don't -- don't -- please, please don't tell us that
2 whole story all over again.
3 A. I believe that this was all done by design. There was a design
4 behind all that.
5 Q. All right. Finally in this second visit -- [Microphone not
6 activated] ...
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. You did on that occasion look at the books properly, did you?
10 That is, the KU books?
11 A. First we had a meeting with the chief of the --
12 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... no, no, stop. Did you properly
13 inspect the books, the KU books? First the CSB and of the SJB?
14 A. Of the three of us, one of us, I believe it was Nikola, looked at
15 the KU books of the CSB. And as for the log-book of events for a
16 uniformed police station, it's a general book where everything is
17 registered, including breaches of discipline, traffic violations, and
18 other incidents. That may have been the origin of the problem because
19 the uniform --
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stop, stop. Did you - and
21 by "you" I mean you personally - look at any of the books?
22 A. No. No. I didn't look at the KU book in the public security
23 station. I don't remember that anybody in the course of our visit --
24 because for that we would have had a uniformed inspector with us. That's
25 why we wanted to do it more thoroughly the following time. There were
1 problems regarding the functioning of the uniformed police and what the
2 uniformed policemen do. And as for the KU books ...
3 Q. Mr. Orasanin, I understood this was your great big proper visit,
4 sorry, inspection. Are you now saying that you ignored the inspection
5 checklist and did not, any of you, inspect the KU books? Is that what
6 you're saying?
7 A. No, no, no. I was putting things in the perspective of all the
8 other inspection visits, and I said that we did the best as we could.
9 And I guarantee you that we took a snap-shot of the situation as it was.
10 We saw that there were 10 or 11 killings and we based on shedding light
11 on the crimes committed by unknown perpetrators. This is what we
12 started. We ordered that operative groups should be set up in order to
13 elucidate all the crimes. We established contact with the president of
14 the second instance court. We also spoke to the chief of the crime
15 prevention services --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Orasanin, this will not
17 do. Stop. I'm not asking for a list of what you did. I'm simply asking
18 you whether you inspected the KU books and you're saying no you didn't.
19 Now, does that -- right.
20 A. I -- one of us did. Either Nikola or Ostoja did that. The rest
21 of us, we looked at the cases and we talked to the chief of the crime
22 prevention services who was in charge. We analysed cases. Of course we
23 saw the register of those crimes and then we wanted to see what they were
24 doing with that regard. That was that.
25 Q. Right. Stop. Thank you. Last night you had a look at a copy of
1 the Doboj SJB book. Did you yourself inspect that at the time, in
2 August 1992? Yes or no? That's all. Yes or no.
3 A. All I know and all you can see in the report, I saw in there. I
4 don't know whether I saw it myself or Ostoja did. I don't know. But it
5 was a team-work. So all the killings are registered and what we saw
6 tallies what that, and this is 1.000 per cent correct and sure. That's
7 how it was.
8 Q. Right. The second book, had you seen that one before? Let me
9 show it to you again.
10 MS. KORNER: Which is 20102, tab 14 -- 40.
11 Q. Just -- just -- all I want to know is whether you saw that book
12 at the time. I don't want to describe it for various reasons. Did you
13 see that book? Did you see that book?
14 A. One of the three of us did. However, when I looked at what was
15 going on, we registered all that, I can see that everything is
16 registered, that 10 or 11 killings by unknown perpetrators, I remember
17 some names, some on on-site inspections were carried out, and --
18 Q. Stop. Just tell us what that book is, please. I want you to
19 tell us what that book is.
20 A. This is a register or a log-book of perpetrated crimes. They are
21 all there. All the gravest crimes are registered in here, and I mean the
22 crimes that were inspected and investigated.
23 Q. Thank you. Is it a CSB book or is it an SJB book, Doboj?
24 A. It says CSB here. However, I don't know whether you'll be able
25 to understand me. What it says here, serious crimes for which there are
1 on-site inspections, in the bigger centre there are two services. The
2 crime prevention service has its own duty officer. That's how it was
3 done before the war, and it all depends on the internal organisation of
4 the service.
5 Q. Right. I know that. I simply want to know - and there is a
6 reason for me asking you this - does that appear to --
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 Q. Just, please. -- does that appear to be a log-book maintained by
9 the CSB or the SJB Doboj?
10 A. It says here that these are on site inspections which are
11 registered at the centre.
12 Q. Yes, but I think you're -- are you reading -- what are you
13 reading there? Are you reading the thing at the top? Yes, well -- no, I
14 don't want you to read that. I know that's what it says. But that's not
15 on the book itself. I want you -- from looking at the book, whether you
16 can tell me whether this is CSB or SJB. If you can't, then please say
17 so. Leave aside the yellow piece of paper.
18 A. Here, this shows inspections that were carried out following
19 crimes, so this is probably the centre log-book.
20 Q. Right. Thank you very much. Right you can hand that back.
21 A. Yes, may I also --
22 Q. No, you mayn't. Just give it back to me, please.
23 All right. Finally, on the Doboj, can I ask you to look, please,
24 at 1D542, which is tab 36A of our bundle.
25 That's a list of the unknown perpetrators cases that you were
1 talking, is that right, from Doboj, Mr. Orasanin?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Right. Can you confirm that each and every one of the victims
4 of -- sorry, just a moment. Yes, sorry. Yes, that all of the
5 victims - I just want to check this - appear to be non-Serb victims?
6 A. I remember the names. I found them in the log-book.
7 Q. Yes. They're all non-Serbs, aren't they?
8 A. Number 1 --
9 Q. In fact, they're pretty well all Muslims, aren't they?
10 A. 1, 2, 3, 4 --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... don't count them.
12 A. There are 10. Ten.
13 Q. Yes. Are all the victims of these crimes, which are the only
14 non -- unknown perpetrator crimes, they're all non-Serb, aren't they?
15 MS. KORNER: Now, please don't interrupt.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could you allow the witness to
17 read the document. That's my remark at this point.
18 MS. KORNER: I understood this was a document he'd seen,
19 particularly as it's a Defence document.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document? I've not seen the
21 document before. This is the first time I see it. I remember the names.
22 These names are in the KU book --
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Right. Are they all non-Serb names? That's all. That's all I
25 want you to confirm.
1 A. Yes, here. But in the KU book I found 12 murders; among those,
2 victims are also Serbs.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have to ask you to allow the
4 witness to read the last part where it says with regard to the above
5 report and where it says who the victims are. Why don't you allow the
6 witness to read the document through? Please, can you read and see if
7 there are also Serb victims in here.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 8. From 1 through 8 I have.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] What is the last number?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Eight.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then you don't have the entire
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, there you go. Are you
15 reading from the screen?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from 1 through 8.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, could you please ask
18 the usher to provide the witness with a hard copy of the document so that
19 the witness can read it through. I don't care for these examination
21 Could you please read the document until the very end. The last
22 part, please.
23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have the next page on the screen,
25 please, in English.
1 MS. KORNER: And in B/C/S.
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the last part, where
3 it says "in connection with the above report" ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see this is it. Uh-huh. "In
5 connection with the above report"; do you want me to read this?
6 MS. KORNER: Do you know, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm taking
7 exceeding objection to this. This is -- all of this can be dealt with in
8 re-examination. This is not a proper way for Defence counsel to behave.
9 JUDGE HALL: And it's prolonging the proceedings.
10 Mr. Cvijetic, let Ms. Korner formulate her questions. And if the
11 question is unfair, we will intervene. But let's get on with it.
12 MS. KORNER:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Orasanin, you've had a chance to read through this.
14 These are the names you yourself saw in the KU books. They are the
15 11 unsolved, unknown perpetrator cases; is that right?
16 A. Yes, crimes committed by unknown perpetrators.
17 Q. Thank you. Of the 11 names of the crimes committed by unknown
18 perpetrators, are any of those names Serb names, the victims?
19 A. As far as I can see, no.
20 Q. Thank you. Right.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we -- I don't know what Your Honour -- I've
22 forgotten what time the break is in the afternoon.
23 JUDGE HALL: It's in three minutes' time. But if it's
24 convenient, we can take it now.
25 MS. KORNER: I'm just going to deal, very briefly, with
1 Banja Luka, which was the last place he visited. And that's the end of
2 the inspection -- of this lot of inspections. Or, Your Honour -- I'm in
3 Your Honour's hands, I don't mind.
4 JUDGE HALL: Do you still expect to finish this afternoon?
5 MS. KORNER: Yes, I do.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so we'd take the break now and come back in
7 20 minutes.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just before the -- while the witness
12 is being brought - thank you - can I make it clear that over the
13 adjournment we've had another look at the Brcko book. It runs until
14 roughly the end of April, then there's an underlining. It is 1992. But
15 the next entry after April is not until the 1st of July. So I should
16 make that absolutely clear. So the point I was trying to make was that
17 it was operating in May. There's nothing to show that it was, in that
18 book. And I apologise.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Ms. Korner. So noted.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have looked at
21 the book together and noticed that, so the issue has been resolved.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Mr. Orasanin, you told the Court that after Doboj you went to
25 Banja Luka CSB. And you spent there -- this is at page 21920 of the
1 transcript and goes on to 21921, you reviewed the crimes log-book,
2 criminal complaints, and so on and so forth. Do you remember telling the
3 Court that?
4 A. Yes. When we came to Banja Luka --
5 Q. No, that's all I need. That's what happened, was it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Did you also spend only one hour in Banja Luka?
8 A. A few hours.
9 Q. All right. Where is your report on this inspection?
10 A. It was a single report.
11 Q. All right. So there was a report on Doboj --
12 A. [In English] Doboj, Banja Luka.
13 Q. -- and Banja Luka. Right.
14 Again, can you explain why you and Mr. Minic and Milanovic were
15 doing an inspection in late August, around the 25th it must have been
16 according to you, when there had been an earlier inspection on the
17 5th of August?
18 MS. KORNER: If we have a look, please, at P631, tab 28. Report
19 on the performed inspection of the CSB and public security stations in
20 the territory of the Autonomous Region Krajina. Can we go to the last
21 page, please.
22 Q. We'll see the 5th of August, report submitted by Sreto Gajic,
23 department chief, and Mr. Mirosavic, police inspector.
24 A. [Interpretation] Yes, we can see that in the report. They are
25 inspectors of the uniformed police, as far as I remember.
1 Tomislav Miroslavic [as interpreted] and Sreto Gajic. They are from that
3 Q. Why was there an inspection being done within a matter of weeks
4 by you, Mr. Minic, and Milanovic?
5 A. We were in Doboj and finished the work there, and then we went to
6 Banja Luka about crime. And this is probably an inspection of the
7 uniformed police.
8 Q. What, do you mean you went there of your own initiative, on your
9 own initiative, rather than having been told to go there?
10 A. As far as I can see, these inspectors were there to make a
11 snap-shot of the uniformed police. The same as us who went to Doboj.
12 And then the need became obvious to conduct an inspection of the
13 uniformed police. That follows from some work duties.
14 Q. Yes. All right. Thank you, that's all I want to ask you.
15 Now, Visegrad and Foca, your visit, for which you wrote a report
16 that we looked at with the Defence, but I just want to understand this:
17 Is it your assertion that Visegrad was not operating properly; or was it,
18 apart from the shortage of staff which we looked at, a properly operating
20 A. We found out and stated in the report, after visiting Rudo, we
21 came to Visegrad, we were also there briefly. I said that those were
22 short visits and our first visits to that area. We started at Foca and
23 finished at Visegrad.
24 Q. No. Stop, please. Answer the question. Is it your contention
25 that Visegrad was not a properly functioning SJB?
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it may be good to
2 show the witness his report for Visegrad to jog his memory and then he
3 can answer. That may be useful.
4 MS. KORNER: He's just looked at it. I want to know whether he
5 makes --
6 Q. Sorry, I want to know, Mr. Orasanin, whether you make the same
7 complaints, that there were insufficient staff or that things were not
8 being done properly at Visegrad?
9 A. There were problems there, just as in all those stations,
10 problems with the prosecutor's office and the court, problems with
11 conducting on-site investigations and investigative activities and
12 everything that was necessary. That's what we found out, because without
13 that the service cannot function. That was our goal. And they -- there
14 were plans for other inspectors to go there later.
15 Q. Yes. It's not, however, that there were insufficient police
16 officers at -- on duty, is it?
17 A. I can't remember now how many police officers in uniform were
18 there and how many crime enforcement officers. I remember that there
19 were three or four in crime enforcement. But we were told that there
20 were -- they were fewer than before. But as far as I know, there were
21 plans for going to Visegrad again to assess the situation. I know that.
22 Q. Now, no doubt you're aware of the house fire that was started and
23 that has been the subject of trials at this court in Visegrad which took
24 place in June or July, I think maybe July, of 1992. When you examined
25 the KU books at Visegrad, did you find any record of that crime?
1 A. When we were in Visegrad, we stayed an hour. There were talks,
2 and we noticed that. But the problem was with the investigative
3 activities. When we returned, I know that there were plans for Milanovic
4 maybe, or somebody from our group, to go there again because there was
5 talk about some corpses. That's what I remember.
6 Q. Yes. Are you saying that you did not examine the crime registers
7 in Visegrad? That -- just say "yes" or "no."
8 A. As far as I remember, there were three or four inspectors but
9 they were absent.
10 Q. Look, did you or did you not - and by "you," I mean you or either
11 Mr. Minic or Mr. Milanovic - look at the KU books?
12 A. That's stated in the report, but I don't remember it now.
13 Probably one of us did. I didn't.
14 Q. Well, all right. Let's have a look at the report because there's
15 no reference in the report to this.
16 MS. KORNER: Can we have up, please, it's P6 -- oh, no. It's
17 tab 29 in the Defence bundle, and I think it must be 33 -- no, it's
18 1D53 -- sorry. 33D1. 1D571.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's tab 29 in the -- okay.
20 MS. KORNER: And can we go to the second page, please, in --
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the usher
22 to hand this binder with the exhibits to the witness. It may be easier
23 for him to read the hard copy.
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. Well, what you say there is there's a crime prevention department
1 with three employees, criminal reports by injured parties have been, I
2 think it must be filed, and a number have been processed.
3 So does that mean you looked at the criminal reports themselves
4 or the KU register?
5 Mr. Orasanin?
6 A. A presentation was made about the crimes committed and the
7 problems of the prosecutor's office and that the criminal report were not
8 filed with the prosecutor's office.
9 Q. Stop, stop. I can read that, so can everybody else.
10 Did you or did you not look at the KU books?
11 A. I think that we were briefed at the meeting that we attended and
12 this is what we noted.
13 Q. All right. Stop, stop. I'm not going to go on with this.
14 In the report you talk about: "In the Visegrad area there have
15 been cases of murder, that is, genocide, committed against Serbs."
16 No reference at all to - let's use your word - genocide committed
17 against non-Serbs, Muslims, is there?
18 A. As far as I remember this, when we were there, somebody brought a
19 cassette because communications were down. And that's why this was put
20 here. We were supposed to give it to the news agency. And this was a
21 recent crime, as far as I remember, in a village, maybe Jelasice.
22 Because it was so recent, this remark was made here.
23 And I know that another trip to Visegrad was planned for a later
24 time in order to -- in order to collect information, because there was a
25 mention of corpses in the Drina.
1 Jelasice, yes, that's the name of the village.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... it says the corpses in the
3 Drina -- stop. The corpses in the Drina weren't related to anything to
4 do with the fires that killed all those people or the people who were
5 shot by the river. They were to do with crimes against the Serbs, were
7 MS. KORNER: Now what?
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, how can
9 the witness answer this question? He must first be asked whether he was
10 aware of that crime. The Prosecutor is basically giving evidence about
11 what we have heard in this trial. The Prosecutor is skipping several
12 steps before asking the witness this question.
13 MS. KORNER: I was actually asking the witness, and that's how I
14 started off, whether there was any mention of that to him.
15 Q. So do we take it from that that either it was never mentioned to
16 you or you -- well, first of all, was it mentioned to you by the Visegrad
17 police that in June deliberate fires had been set which had killed large
18 numbers of extended Muslim families?
19 A. We didn't know it then. I know that there were some activities,
20 there was a dispatch, it may have been sent by the chief, about some
21 groups over there, and para-groups, but only when we returned. Some sort
22 of problems.
23 Q. What, the Lukic brothers?
24 A. The chief -- the station chief wrote that.
25 Q. Right. Isn't it right that - and I'm going to come on to that as
1 the final topic, Mr. Orasanin - the only interest that the MUP, from the
2 top to the bottom, had in investigating was crimes that were committed
3 against Serbs, and that's why this paragraph appears in this way?
4 A. I said why this remark was made. And the colleagues who were
5 with me also know. Because of that cassette which was --
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, yes, you told us --
7 don't tell us about the cassette again. All right, you don't agree with
8 my suggestion.
9 When did you learn about the house fires, then, please?
10 A. I can't remember now. I believe that there was some sort of
11 report or dispatch from the station chief.
12 Q. Yes, but when?
13 A. That's why -- but I was soon transferred to another position in
14 the border police and so now I can't --
15 Q. No, you weren't trans -- no, stop, stop, stop, stop. You weren't
16 transferred until November 1992. Was -- that report from the SJB chief
17 on the house fires and other crimes committed against non-Serbs, was that
18 before you went to the border police?
19 A. Well, as far as I remember, some reports were there in July. I
20 can't remember now. It may have been later, after I was transferred.
21 But I know that there was talk about another team going there again, that
22 some corpses had been found in the Drina. I know that from when they
24 Q. Corpses of what, Serbs or non-Serbs?
25 A. We don't know that. But I know that they should go there again.
1 And I think they were non-Serbs, where -- when we were in Bijeljina, I
3 Q. When what? When, you mean, the MUP was in Bijeljina? The
5 A. Yes, yes, the MUP.
6 Q. All right. Now, look, it can't be -- you say it was either in
7 July 1992 or November 1992 after you left. Presumably after you had gone
8 to the border police --
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 Q. No, just pause. -- that you heard about the house fires. If you
11 had gone to the border police in November 1992, then you would hardly
12 likely have seen a report from the SJB chief, would you?
13 A. I really can't remember now, you know, if a report reached the
14 administration. But the headquarters was in Bijeljina --
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... look, stop.
16 A. That means the crime prevention administration was in Bijeljina.
17 I can't remember.
18 Q. Right. I don't -- the -- you, when you went to the border
19 police, no longer saw reports intended for the crime prevention unit, did
21 A. The reports are passed on along the lines of work. And some
22 contain information intended for the analyses department and also for the
23 media. I don't know and understand what you're asking.
24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... no. Please, please,
25 Mr. Orasanin, stop. This is going on forever.
1 When you went to the border police, you no longer saw reports
2 from an SJB chief in Visegrad about killings, did you?
3 A. No. If it was a dispatch, if a dispatch was sent out --
4 Q. Honestly, Mr. Orasanin, this is -- just answer this, please. We
5 take it, therefore, that the report on those killings from Visegrad must
6 have come before you went to the border police?
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness should
8 be asked whether he's sure at all that such a report came in. I
9 cannot conclude from his answers --
10 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... for
11 re-examination, Mr. Cvijetic.
12 MS. KORNER: No, that's disgraceful. You cannot help the witness
13 out like this.
14 Q. Right. I'll try one last time and then I want to finish as
15 quickly as I can, Mr. Orasanin.
16 You told us you thought the report arrived in July but it could
17 have been after you left. You would not have seen this report, would
18 you, once you were in the border police? That's all I want to know. Yes
19 or no.
20 A. I remember a report about paramilitary groups there which was
21 from July or so. The station sent out such a report. But who -- I don't
22 remember who the suspects are or who the victims were. But there were
23 some problems with paramilitaries who were active there.
24 Q. Did that report on paramilitaries include --
25 A. [No interpretation]
1 Q. No, don't answer. Did that report on the paramilitaries include
2 an account of the appalling crimes they had committed against non-Serbs;
3 yes or no?
4 A. I don't remember now.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. It may have been sent by dispatch, or perhaps that was
7 information from the media. It was long ago. I simply don't remember.
8 But it's --
9 Q. That's fine, stop.
10 Foca, I just want to deal with one --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, before you move to somewhere else.
12 Mr. Orasanin, the house fire, as Ms. Korner calls it, is a quite
13 massive and important incident, that's right, isn't it? You know that
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now then, let's take it that when doing
17 the inspection you did in Visegrad, you didn't know about it, and your
18 colleagues who were with you to do an inspection did not know about it,
19 nevertheless - and this is my question, and I would like to have a short
20 answer to that - wouldn't it anyhow have been told or been found out by
21 you that this happened and wouldn't it have been mentioned in your
22 report, a report that dates from one month after the event?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, had we known that, we
24 certainly would have mentioned it in the report --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I know, I know, I know. But my question is:
1 Wouldn't the people in Visegrad you were inspecting, weren't they under
2 the obligation to tell you about this? Or if not, weren't they under the
3 obligation to have that logged in one or the other log-book where you
4 should have found it or could have found it? But it wasn't there. You
5 inspected the books, it wasn't there, because you don't know about it.
6 Because if you had known, you would have mentioned it. So my question
7 is --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you agree
10 with me that they should have told you, that they should have told you,
11 or that you -- that it would have been normal and the -- their obligation
12 to file that in one way or the other in one or the other log-book that
13 you were inspecting, but they didn't, is that it?
14 That's how I interpret, now, your "yes." Am I right?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If we had known that those
16 things had happened, we would have mentioned that in the report. Either
17 if we had been briefed or if we had found it ourselves in the book.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Right. I want you to look, please, at -- [Microphone not
21 activated]. Sorry, I'd like you to look, please, at a document which is
22 65 ter 10395, tab 30 of our binder.
23 This is a report, 10th of August, 1992. At the top it says
24 "Cedo Tosic and Vojin Vukovic." Are those two of the inspectors that you
25 worked with?
1 A. They did not belong to the crime prevention administration. They
2 did not belong to our administration. However, I remember that they were
3 in the area of Herzegovina, I believe. I don't know.
4 Q. All right. So you wouldn't be able to identify their signatures?
5 A. I did not work with them. I worked in the administration for
6 crime prevention and they worked in the police administration.
7 Cedo Tosic also carried out inspection in the territory of Doboj. I've
8 already mentioned that. He actually went on one inspection to inspect
9 the reserve police force, as far as I can remember.
10 Q. All right. Yes. I don't think I can take that further. Thank
12 Right. Can I deal now, please, with your assertion that the MUP
13 investigated war crimes whosoever they were committed against. I've
14 already suggested to you that the only interest the MUP had in
15 investigating war crimes was those that were allegedly against Serb
16 victims. Could you have a look, please, at P173, which is at tab 9A.
17 On the 16th of May, Mico Stanisic issued this order to the
18 Security Services Centre and so ordered that "for the purpose of
19 monitoring combat operations and regular activities of the organs of the
20 interior, and in order to collect documentation on the crimes against the
21 Serbian population," et cetera, et cetera.
22 Were you aware of this order?
23 A. I believe that this was drafted when we were on our inspection in
24 Podrinje, sometime in mid-May.
25 Q. All right. So you were aware of this order?
1 A. I can't remember. Maybe we were travelling at that time.
2 Perhaps. I don't know.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page? Can
4 we show the witness the signature to see whether it is, indeed,
5 Mico Stanisic's order? Let's see who signed it.
6 MS. KORNER: I'm so sorry, I didn't understand that there was any
7 dispute that this was an order issued by Mico Stanisic.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to see whether
9 the witness recognises Mico Stanisic's signature on this document. This
10 is all I wanted to say.
11 MS. KORNER: I don't imagine -- sorry, can we go back --
12 Q. Were you aware of this order issued by Mico Stanisic?
13 A. At that time I was probably on sick leave and later on I learned
14 about that. Because we had had that accident, you know, I was absent for
15 some ten days or so, you know.
16 Q. That's fine. You learned about it later, but the --
17 A. I can't remember. I can't remember because I was on sick leave.
18 We had had that accident, so I was at home until the end of May, so I
19 don't --
20 Q. Mr. Orasanin, you said that. Stop. Did you learn -- you told us
21 you learned about it later.
22 A. I'm not sure because it was only sometime around the 28th of May.
23 I was at home before that, so it would not make much sense for me to
24 know. It wouldn't have been logical, would it? I don't know. I don't
25 think that I've ever seen this before. This is a document about military
1 activities and operations. This is what it's about, combat activities
2 and operations.
3 Q. I'm so sorry, please, Mr. Orasanin, I just want an answer to this
4 question: Whether you knew about the order on the 16th of May or whether
5 you discovered it later, did you know that he had issued an order to the
6 CSBs to collect documentation on war crimes committed against Serbs?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Right. Never heard that? Oh, never mind. I think that's a
9 mistake to ask that.
10 A. I did not see this at the crime prevention administration, I'm
11 sure, after my return from sick leave. I'm not familiar with this at
12 all. No.
13 Q. And finally, on this point --
14 A. There was another document about war crimes.
15 Q. Yes, I know there was. I want you to --
16 A. No, I don't -- I was -- I thought that that was the one, but it's
18 Q. Right. Don't go on talking. Are you saying that you never
19 understood that the concentration of the MUP was to get evidence about
20 war crimes committed against Serbs? Did you never understand that was
21 the object? No --
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I'd like you to look, please --
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. I'd like you to look please -- stop talking.
1 A. Can I answer?
2 Q. I would like you to look, please, at the MUP report for 1992,
3 which is P625, at tab 37A. And can we go, please -- do you see this is a
4 report April to December 1992 for -- of the Republika Srpska Ministry of
5 the Interior. Did you see that?
6 A. I can't remember. I would have to look at the contents first. I
7 was an inspector at that time and not all documents reached me.
8 Q. Didn't all inspectors get a copy of the report of the work of the
10 A. We have our own reports, our own administration. We draft our
11 own programmes and reports connected with our own administration, and I
12 suppose that this was only seen by our bosses, by our managers.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness needs to be shown the
14 date when this report was compiled. And then it will be easier for him
15 to answer whether he ever saw it and when.
16 THE INTERPRETER: It is very difficult to understand the witness,
17 especially if the witness and the counsel are overlapping.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in the MUP centre at the
19 time. From December 1992 I was working on the setting up of the border
20 police and I was not in the MUP at all.
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. I want you to look, nonetheless, in respect of your answer about
23 the interest that you had in investigating war crimes, at the part that
24 deals with crime detection.
25 MS. KORNER: In English that is page 12. And in B/C/S, page 13.
1 No, must be -- sorry, that's not the page in B/C/S. It should say
2 F120-1292 on the top. Yes, that's it. Thank you.
3 Q. Is that the section headed "Crime Prevention and Detection"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So that's the section that dealt with the work of your
6 department; correct?
7 A. Yes. In the previous year, that is.
8 Q. Yep, I quite agree.
9 MS. KORNER: Now let's go, please, to - one, two - three pages
10 on, page 15 in English. And it's - one, two, three - four pages on in
12 Q. Do you see the paragraph in B/C/S that begins "in this
13 period ..."?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. "In this period, the criminal inspectors"; that's
16 you, isn't it, Mr. Orasanin? You were a criminal inspector?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "... visited all CSBs and SJBs and had meetings where they gave
19 instructions for carrying out concrete operative activities. The focus
20 of operative work in the CSBs and SJBs was on detection, documenting, and
21 reporting members of the enemy army who had committed acts of genocide
22 against the Serbian people, torched or destroyed immovable property,
23 cultural, religious monuments, and other assets."
24 Do you agree that is an accurate description of what the main
25 task was?
1 A. I don't agree. This is not the style that the -- a criminal -- a
2 crime prevention administration would have used. This is done by the
3 analytical service. This is not a task of the crime prevention
4 administration. It must have been somebody from the analytical service
5 who did that.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to intervene.
7 If such a voluminous report is shown to the witness in short batches and
8 if it's given to the witness who has not seen it before, we are never
9 going to get an adequate response.
10 In the entire report there is information to which Ms. Korner
11 refers and that is crimes against humanitarian and international law.
12 There is even a chapter on that, but that chapter has not been shown to
13 the witness. I believe that the method that Ms. Korner has used in
14 examining this witness is not adequate because she is taking things out
15 of the context. There is a whole report about the most serious types of
16 crimes, and the question arises whether this witness is at all competent
17 to comment upon the report that he has never seen. I've seen it and I
18 had time to read it; whereas he has never seen it, he has never read it
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, as I understand the import of
22 Ms. Korner's question, it is -- although the witness himself, as he said,
23 hasn't seen -- didn't see the report previously, it deals with an area --
24 it reports on matters for which he, according to his testimony, had
25 responsibility, and he is merely being asked to comment on what is in the
1 sections of the report. So I don't know that he needs to digest the
2 whole of the report in order to answer the particular questions that are
3 being phrased, that are being put to him.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he cannot answer if
5 he doesn't digest the entire report that concerns the work of his
6 administration --
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, unless I misunderstand what's been
8 going on, he isn't asked -- being asked to do a commentary on this
9 report. What he is asked, what is being put to him, is specific findings
10 or sections of the report and asking for his -- what his reaction is to
11 it because the report deals with areas for which he was responsible.
12 Seems to be quite straightforward.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that is absolutely right. The
14 interruptions that Mr. Cvijetic is making either display his complete
15 ignorance of the role of counsel when cross-examination is going on or
16 are deliberately designed to try and help his witness. Either way, they
17 are improper, and Your Honour has summarised the point that I'm trying to
19 Q. Now, this part, Mr. Orasanin, says that the criminal inspectors,
20 and you've agreed you were one of them, visited the CSBs and SJBs, and
21 the focus of your work, says the report, was dealing with members of the
22 enemy army, as they're described, who committed acts of genocide against
23 the Serbian people.
24 I asked you whether you agreed with that assessment and you tell
25 us you do not; is that right?
1 A. I do not, because we made questionnaires for both -- both to be
2 processed. And there was a criminal report where there was a crime
3 committed that we treated as murder, although it may have been a war
4 crime. There is a general remark in the report, but I don't think that
5 this was made on behalf of the crime detection and prevention service.
6 We didn't have a position toward that. We had RZ and RZ1 forms, and we
7 were instructed to fill in these forms for Serbs and for the others.
8 That was our position.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Somebody wrote this who did not use the style that we used in our
12 Q. Yes, stop, stop. Right. I understand you don't agree.
13 See, let me make it quite clear to you what our position is,
14 Mr. Orasanin. I suggest to you that these forms and any orders allegedly
15 looking to investigate war crimes against all manner of persons are no
16 more than window-dressing and that all the Serbian MUP in Bosnia was
17 interested in investigating was crimes committed against Serbs.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. Are
19 these final arguments now or a question to the witness?
20 JUDGE HALL: Please continue, Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. That's -- I want to make quite clear what we suggest is the
23 reality about these forms that you helped prepare. Do you agree or
24 disagree? And you can say you agree or disagree.
25 A. I disagree because we made them to be used. Minister Stanisic
1 wrote a dispatch which was forwarded through the analyses department, and
2 we in our administration actually made them. That's how we were brought
3 up, irrespective of the events, and that's how it will always be. And if
4 you're counting me in this group, then I take it as an offence.
5 Q. Yes. Finally, you said that the local authorities, the
6 Crisis Staffs, effectively controlled the police. Were you aware of the
7 instructions issued by the SDS party on the 19th of December, 1991, on
8 the composition of Crisis Staffs? And you can just answer that "yes" or
10 A. Yes and no.
11 Q. Yes or no. Did you know about the instructions?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know about the further instructions issued by
14 Prime Minister Djeric on the 26th of April, 1992, about the work of
15 Crisis Staffs?
16 A. I remember it kind of. But during the war we had no time to
17 think what -- who was planning what and the like. I was -- I spoke about
18 that altogether already. Until the war we mostly dealt with detention
19 cases, and that's why the confusion arose with regard to the Law on
20 Internal Affairs --
21 Q. Stop, stop, stop. And I'm sorry I'm interrupting the
23 Did you know that Prime Minister Djeric issued instructions on
24 the composition and work of Crisis Staffs on April 26th, 1992; yes or no?
25 A. I do not remember. I said what I know and what has to do with
1 the judiciary and the MUP. That's what I followed, the legal procedure
2 in these areas. And I said that I had these decisions on the
3 establishment of courts and prosecutor's offices, and there's also
4 something about prison facilities and something like that. And we were
5 carrying that around with us and we were drivers and couriers and
6 everything else. That's what I know. I was never interested in
8 Q. So you did not know that those orders from the government said
9 that the head of the MUP in a particular area had to be on the
10 Crisis Staff? Answer "yes" or "no," please.
11 A. Not as far as I know.
12 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, how long do you expect you would be
14 with your re-examination?
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's what I was
16 about to say. I think there's no point to try and deal with any one
17 topic in the remaining ten minutes because for my re-examination I will
18 need at least one session.
19 JUDGE HALL: So we --
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there's one matter as to timing which
21 we could -- sorry, not timing, but the scheduling of the case, which
22 Mr. Krgovic and I were discussing which we could just, perhaps, deal
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
25 So, Mr. Orasanin, we are about to rise, but we have some
1 housekeeping matters with which to deal. So the Chamber is not rising
2 immediately, but you are now excused. We will resume the trial, when we
3 adjourn, to 9.00 tomorrow morning and we will be in Courtroom I. So the
4 usher will escort you from the courtroom while we continue those
5 scheduling matters to which counsel have alluded.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, having in mind what
9 Mr. Zecevic said today with regard to the possible giving up on to two
10 Defence witnesses, my estimate and the Bench's estimate that the
11 Zupljanin Defence will begin its case after the break is unrealistic now.
12 So probably -- probably the Zupljanin Defence will begin its case -- will
13 open its case before the summer recess.
14 I would like to remind the Trial Chamber of a few matters, namely
15 our submission for approval of a 92 bis witness, which has not yet been
16 replied to, and our submission to introduce a witness under
17 Rule 92 quater. Only then we can make a final estimate of the time
18 required and the sequence of calling witnesses for which we need
19 Your Honours' ruling.
20 But, at any rate, I will continue to fine-tune our list with the
21 Prosecution. Certainly it will be required, as it will probably be
22 earlier than expected, once the Stanisic Defence case finishes, we will
23 need about a week to begin to call witnesses for the Zupljanin Defence.
24 JUDGE HALL: I know that counsel probably are tempted to think
25 that they're being fobbed of when they give reminders to the Chamber
1 about outstanding rulings, and the Chamber's response is that those
2 rulings are well advanced. But I can say, about 92 bis and the 92 quater
3 rulings, that they are well advanced in terms of the -- their being ready
4 for delivery.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it's more this: If the
6 Zupljanin -- sorry, the Stanisic Defence drop two of their witnesses, as
7 appears to be the case, the likelihood, working out the timing, is that
8 their case would end at the end of the first week of July, which I think
9 takes us up to the 9th -- yes, Friday the 9th of July.
10 If Mr. Krgovic's application for a week is right, and this is
11 what we're really asking, his case would start on the 18th -- Monday, the
12 18th of July, which would leave one week before the recess. We don't
13 object to that if Your Honours are happy with the week off, it seems to
14 us not an unreasonable request, to have a week between the two cases.
15 I don't know if Mr. Krgovic intends to open his case or which
16 witnesses he intends to call, so it would -- we would certainly ask that
17 Your Honours make an order that we get, A, firstly whether he's going to
18 open his case, and, two, the order of witnesses within the next week or
19 so, so that we can organise our cases.
20 JUDGE HALL: Well, we share the view that the request is not
21 unreasonable, but we aren't going to rule on it now.
22 MS. KORNER: No.
23 JUDGE HALL: The observation that I would make is that having
24 regard to what I said earlier about not picking this up again until the
25 29th of August, the unfortunate effect is going to be that the rhythm is
1 going to be lost. But I suppose that's the nature of the exercise. But
2 counsel would bear in mind that break and conduct -- arrange their
3 witnesses accordingly.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, I understand. And, of course, I'm
5 not holding Mr. Krgovic to this at all, that he would intend to start
6 with his expert, which would probably fit -- if he doesn't open his case,
7 which would probably fit nicely into the week. Because his estimate is
8 six hours, so that would take us just over a first day and cross would
9 certainly be completed. He's not as long as the police expert or
10 anything like that.
11 So anyhow, Your Honours, I appreciate you weren't going to rule.
12 We thought it right, however, that Your Honours had an opportunity to
13 think about that.
14 JUDGE HALL: Of course. Thank you. So we take the adjournment
15 to 9.00 tomorrow morning.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day
18 of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.