1 Wednesday, 15 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good afternoon to
9 everyone. May we take the appearances for today, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon Your Honours, Joanna Korner and
11 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
14 Stanisic Defence this afternoon. Thank you.
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. For
16 Stojan Zupljanin, it's Aleksandar Aleksic.
17 JUDGE HALL: We have been alerted by the Court Officer that there
18 are a number of housekeeping matters which Mr. Zecevic wishes to raise.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, thank you very much.
20 Your Honours, the Defence of Stanisic appreciates the position of the
21 Trial Chamber where the Trial Chamber is involved in a number of cases at
22 the moment. However, I must raise our grave concern on the following
23 situation. There is seven pending motions filed by the Stanisic Defence.
24 Now, two of the motions deal with our request to admit evidence based on
25 Rule 92 quater. Three motions are motions to amend our 65 ter list.
1 There is one motion for binding order to government of Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina dated 19th of May. And there is a motion to admit
3 documents and selected footnote documents from our Expert Bajagic report.
4 Now, Your Honours, this is our penultimate witness. We have one
5 more witness to go, and before all seven of these motions are decided
6 upon, we will not be able to file our bar table motion. Now, that will
7 of course make our position on the closing of our case very -- will keep
8 it somewhere in vein, you see, because the moment when we file our bar
9 table motion, then we will be in a position, perhaps, to rest our case.
10 The second thing -- the second thing, Your Honours, our last
11 witness would be our last opportunity before the bar table motion to
12 introduce some important evidence. Now, this situation will actually
13 impair our ability to present important evidence to the Trial Chamber.
14 Because in case Your Honours would not accept our motions as stated, we
15 would -- we could use the opportunity to lead the evidence with the last
16 witness on a number of these documents. Now, I can do that in any case
17 but then it will just prolong the time and it might be the fact that
18 Your Honours will admit these documents based on our motions, so then I
19 would be repeating and using the court time and resources.
20 Now, this is a very grave concern that we are having concerning
21 this issue, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HALL: If I might interrupt briefly, Mr. Zecevic, how many
23 of the outstanding motions are awaiting responses from the Prosecution?
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I can assist with that. I'm not aware
25 of three motions to add to the 65 ter list. I am aware of one which was
1 served, I was going to say, filed on the 3rd of June and we are going to
2 respond. We've got to Friday and we are going to respond to it. One
3 which was produced yesterday which appears to relate to documents which
4 the Defence wish to show this witness. There was a great deal of
5 confusion about that. And so in respect of that, we are really waiting
6 to see how the Defence deal with these documents with the witness. I
7 mean, that's what they say in the motion and it may well be we don't feel
8 the necessity to respond. But certainly we will be responding to the one
9 of 3rd of June. And one on the 6th of May, I must admit I have
10 absolutely no recollection whether we responded or decide we were not
11 going to respond. Mr. Smith, helpfully, thinks we did respond already.
12 Clearly we must have, it's the 6th of May and we were going to respond.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: So if I can summarise, Your Honours, it appears
15 that there are two motions that the Office of the Prosecutor needs to
16 responds to, or depends if they want, of course.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm told we did respond to the 6th of
20 May motion on the 18th of May.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. The -- we will consider the implications
22 of these motions as Mr. Zecevic has articulated the affect of any -- not
23 merely any delay, but the affect of the progress of the resolution of
24 these outstanding matters, and we fully appreciate how an early answer is
25 required. It's something that we would have to give consideration to, of
1 course, as judges outside of court.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there's just two other matters which
3 really arise out of that. The first is: The Defence filed a response to
4 our application to have documents put to Mr. Bjelosevic de-MFI'd. I
5 mean, it's not the right expression, but we are going to be seeking leave
6 to respond to a response because we say it contains some inaccuracies,
7 and we are hoping to file that application for leave to respond to their
8 response tomorrow, just so that Your Honours know. But the second matter
9 is this, of course: We are obviously moving fairly speedily into
10 Mr. Zupljanin's Defence case, and I appreciate this has not been
11 mentioned by Mr. Aleksic, but he has made an application for a number of
12 witnesses to be called under the Rule 92 bis, which we've objected to.
13 And, clearly, I think from all sides, we'd like to know about that too
14 and Mr. Zecevic in particular, I imagine. Not Mr. Zecevic, sorry,
15 Mr. Krgovic.
16 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can only add that
17 my learned friend Mr. Krgovic spoke about this last week and we await the
18 decision of the Trial Chamber on this after they rule on our submission
19 based on Rule 92 ter. We have one witness based on Rule 92 quater and
20 then we'll decide whether we will call all these witnesses. I can't give
21 you an opinion on this right now until we've had the ruling of the
22 Trial Chamber.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 One other matter. Mr. Zecevic, we have seen your e-mail
25 communication about the two witnesses whom you no longer intend to call
1 and may we have that confirmed for the record, please.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I advised -- as promised, I
3 advised yesterday morning the Trial Chamber and the other party -- I
4 mean, all the parties to this trial that the Stanisic Defence will not be
5 calling witnesses Nikola Milanovic and witness Branko Vlac [phoen].
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
7 So --
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the last thing was I don't know
9 whether Your Honours reached a decision on Mr. Krgovic's application that
10 there should be a week's break between the end of the Stanisic's case and
11 the beginning of his case.
12 JUDGE HALL: The short answer is no, but the -- that is in a
13 sense tied up with the matters which Mr. Zecevic raised, so it is
14 unfortunate that we can't give a more clearer or more tidy indication as
15 to what is going to happen, but by -- certainly by next week, we must,
16 for the sake of efficiency, have sorted out these matters. Thanks
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE HALL: I am reminded by my brother Judge Delvoie that when
19 I said the short answer is no, what I meant is that we hadn't made a
20 decision, so unless the parties --
21 MS. KORNER: I understood that. I didn't read into it that
22 there's not going to be a break.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE HALL: So, Mr. Zecevic, could you call your next witness,
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Our next witness is MS-003,
4 Mr. Simo Tusevljak.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good afternoon, sir, and welcome to the Tribunal
7 and thank you for coming to The Hague to give your testimony. May I
8 first of all ask you if you can hear me in a language that you
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could I then please ask you to read the solemn
12 declaration which is being put to you by the usher.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: SIMO TUSEVLJAK
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very well, sir. You may be seated.
18 Could you please state your name and your date and place of
19 birth, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Simo Tusevljak. I was
21 born on the 12th of February, 1965, in Sarajevo.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. Mr. Tusevljak, have you
23 ever testified before this Court?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, as a Defence witness
25 in the case against General Milosevic.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. And by the way, have you testified in
2 other domestic courts in your country of residence about the matters
3 relating to the war in the former Yugoslavia?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have never testified at home
5 on these issues.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Since you have been here as a witness
7 and have given some testimony already, you are familiar with the
8 proceedings that apply to this Court, but maybe I should just resume for
9 the matter of clarity that you are being called as a witness by the
10 Defence for Mr. Stanisic, and Mr. Stanisic's counsel has asked for six
11 hours to examine you in chief.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Your Honours, 12 hours.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise, 12 hours to examine you in chief.
14 And Mr. Krgovic --
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will say an hour
16 just as a matter of precaution but I don't really expect to have any
17 questions for this witness. Out of caution, I will say an hour.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. And this was the Defence
19 counsel for Mr. Zupljanin speaking. So counsel for Mr. Stanisic has
20 asked for 12 hours; counsel for Mr. Zupljanin, possibly one hour; and
21 counsel for the Prosecution in cross-examination has asked for?
22 MS. KORNER: I've met Mr. Tusevljak before. If Mr. Tusevljak can
23 be persuaded to keep his answers short, I would hope that 10 hours would
24 suffice. But as a matter of caution, as I say, having met Mr. Tusevljak,
25 12 hours.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Ms. Korner.
2 So there we have it. This means that you will certainly be kept
3 to testify for all of this week and possibly most of next week also.
4 You also know already, Mr. Tusevljak, that we run the sessions in
5 90 minutes, after which we have to change the tapes and while we change
6 the tapes, we normally take 20 minutes break. I should also advise you
7 to make sure that you do not respond too quickly to the questions put to
8 you because we have interpreters who interpret what you say into English
9 and French. And if counsel and the witness are overlapping, it is
10 impossible for the interpreters to catch what you are saying, in which
11 case nothing comes out of it. So in your own interest and certainly in
12 the interests of the Judges, we kindly ask you to follow the cursor on
13 the screen, I think to your left, where you will see that it moves. So
14 as long as text is still rolling on the monitor, please withhold your
15 answer and do not answer before you see the cursor has stopped.
16 So as I said, please observe to hold a small pause between
17 question and answer, and, also, as Ms. Korner has suggested, do keep your
18 answers short and to the point, listen carefully to what is being asked
19 and try to respond to the question as shortly as you can. And finally,
20 Mr. Tusevljak, I need to remind you that the solemn declaration that you
21 have just made to us does oblige you to tell the truth and nothing but
22 truth and the whole truth, and if you don't do that, you risk to be
23 prosecuted for perjury, and I should remind you that there is a severe
24 penalty for providing false or incomplete information to the Chamber.
25 With these words, I give the floor to Mr. Zecevic. Thank you.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. If the usher could assist
2 me, this is a binder for the witness.
3 Examination by Mr. Zecevic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tusevljak.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, when you were born -- please tell us where you
7 were born?
8 A. I was born in Sarajevo, in Nedzarici.
9 Q. Have you completed university education?
10 A. Yes, I completed the police academy in Skopje.
11 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, I would like to ask you to be slow in your answers
12 because first my question has it to be interpreted into English and then
13 your reply needs to be interpreted as well.
14 Tell me, it says here that you completed the police academy in
15 Skopje, can you explain to me what kind of university that is that you
16 completed in Skopje and what year that was?
17 A. I enrolled in 1984 and completed the university of security in
18 1988 [Realtime transcript read in error "1998"] in Skopje. That was the
19 only university of the interior in the former Yugoslavia. Apart from
20 studying the law, we also studied police affairs, criminology, forensics,
21 methodology, the operative and everything else that the police deals with
22 and that the organs of the interior deal with. That's where I learned my
23 expertise at that university. And after completing my studies, I started
24 working at the SJB in Novi Grad, Sarajevo.
25 Q. What year did you start working in the Novi Grad police station
1 in Sarajevo, and at what position?
2 A. I started working in 1989 on the 1st of March as crime prevention
3 inspector. We dealt with regular crimes, theft, and we also dealt with
4 serious crimes.
5 Q. For the transcript, it was recorded on page 9, line 22, that you
6 completed the university in 1998. What year did you complete the
7 university in Skopje?
8 A. In 1988.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tusevljak, until when did you work in the
10 Novi Grad SJB?
11 A. I worked in the Novi Grad SJB until the 1st of September, 1990,
12 and then I became an inspector in the SUP in Sarajevo. I was a
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the end of the
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tusevljak, could you repeat the last part of
17 your answer, which was missed by the interpreters. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked as an inspector in the
19 Sarajevo SUP on property theft and I was co-ordinator for property theft
20 for all of the city of Sarajevo.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And what was the relationship between the town SUP and the SJB,
23 the Novi Grad SJB, I mean in terms of hierarchy, in terms of the
24 hierarchy that was valid in the structure of the MUP of the then
25 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. The town SUP existed only in Sarajevo, and there were ten
2 Sarajevo municipalities which were a part of it. We were above the
3 Novi Grad SJB. However, since there was also a CSB in Sarajevo which
4 was -- which also contained all the police stations in Sarajevo, the role
5 was that of a co-ordination role and a monitoring the situation of crime
6 in these ten Sarajevo municipalities.
7 Apart from this, the town SUP contained departments, forensic
8 departments which the SJBs didn't have, so the town SUP provided
9 services, forensic services to all the SJBs in the city of Sarajevo in
10 relation to general crimes. There was also fire prevention department,
11 there were inspectors, there was a department that dealt with foreigners,
12 and there was a department for white-collar crime which the SJBs also
13 didn't have. It was the town SUP was the only one that had this. And
14 they dealt with minor crimes. The CSB had a similar department that
15 dealt with more serious crimes of that type.
16 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, the town SUP of Sarajevo, as for this
17 co-ordination role that it had, with regard to the crime prevention
18 police, did they have this kind of co-ordination role in view of the
19 other segments that existed in these ten public security stations in the
20 territory of the town of Sarajevo?
21 A. Well, for the most part, this was a role of co-ordination,
22 although there were services there. There was the chief of police for
23 the town of Sarajevo, that's for the uniform police, and they had their
24 own departments and then there was the police station for traffic safety
25 within the town police station. I worked there only for three years. I
1 don't really know all of that, but basically my work focused on crime.
2 Q. Tell me, when you came to the town SUP of Sarajevo, who was your
3 immediate superior?
4 A. My immediate superior, or rather, the chief of the general crime
5 department was Goran Macar. The head of sector was Idriz Hodzic, and
6 very soon after that he was replaced by Jozo Leotar.
7 Q. Could you please repeat Mr. Leotar's first name?
8 A. Jozo Leotar.
9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, in the summer of 1991 was a
10 group established at the level of the town SUP of Sarajevo, and if so,
11 what did they do and what was your role within that context?
12 A. As co-ordinator in terms of property-related crime, in the town
13 SUP we received information about all crimes committed in the territory
14 of the town of Sarajevo. Our role was to follow the crime situation, and
15 when we would notice certain trends or a large number of unresolved cases
16 from a particular field, then we established operative groups consisting
17 of operatives from public security stations and then these groups
18 resolved those crimes.
19 Throughout 1991, there was a major escalation in the commission
20 of crime in the territory of the town of Sarajevo, and on certain days
21 even up to 500 crimes would be committed by unknown perpetrators. For
22 the most part, this was break and entry related to apartments, cars,
23 department stores, kiosks, theft of vehicles. And in the general crime
24 department in the town SUP, our assessment was that operative groups that
25 can operate in the territory of the entire town would be far more
1 efficient in combatting groups of criminals.
2 Already in the summer of 1991 from all public security stations
3 that were in the territory of the town provided their best policemen or
4 inspectors and we set out, all of this with a view to solving as many
5 cases as possible and to make it possible for citizens to live the most
6 normal life possible.
7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, just tell us something, you mentioned this general
8 crime service, as you call it. What does that mean actually? What
9 crimes do they work on, or at least did they work on in 1991?
10 A. The general crime service dealt with investigating and
11 documenting crimes of a classical nature, as it were. That is to say,
12 robbery, aggravated robbery; at any rate, crimes that belonged to the
13 field of property-related crime. At this point -- at this point, I would
14 like to clarify something. Public security stations that were within the
15 town SUP worked only on resolving crimes that were dealt with by basic
17 Q. When you say basic courts and their jurisdiction, does that mean
18 that public security stations dealt with less serious crimes, if I can
19 put it that way, or not?
20 A. Yes, precisely. That's what it means. Public security stations
21 dealt with crimes that were less serious, although if a more serious
22 crime were committed in the territory of a particular police station,
23 then members of the crime police of that station provided all possible
24 assistance to the members of the centre for public security services of
1 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Tusevljak, in order to clarify the matter, if
2 a more serious crime is committed, the investigation of that particular
3 crime would fall under the CSB, the Security Services Centre; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. However, since that serious crime was committed in that
7 particular territory, then members of the public security station would
8 provide all a possible support, logistical support, and any other support
9 to the members of the CSB who were in charge of these more serious
10 crimes; right?
11 A. Yes, absolutely.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tusevljak, in your view, what was the key problem
13 in 1991 in terms of so many crimes not being solved?
14 A. I think that the basic problem was the fact that in 1992 there
15 was already a disruption --
16 Q. Sorry, I asked you about 1991.
17 A. In 1991, there were already certain upheavals in the territory of
18 the former Yugoslavia. The war in Croatia was well underway, and in the
19 Ministry of the Interior, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also in
20 the CSB Sarajevo there were more and more people who did not really have
21 anything to do with police work up until then. There were more and more
22 people coming in who were employed in the police, but were not involved
23 in police work at all, or were totally unfamiliar with the town of
25 Q. Was that one of the reasons why this group was established, the
1 one that you co-ordinated at the level of the town SUP of Sarajevo?
2 A. One of the main reasons was our wish to show all public security
3 stations that they could work on solving crimes. And through this
4 operative group, we tried to force them, as well, to work more in their
5 respective areas.
6 Q. What kind of results were achieved by this operative group of
7 yours during the course of 1991?
8 A. Well, I think we had excellent results, above average at that,
9 because I remember that it was only in November 1991 that we had 100
10 cases that involved detention.
11 Q. When you say cases that involved detention, what do you mean? Do
12 you mean that the perpetrators of the crime involved had been apprehended
13 and that they were remanded in custody?
14 A. Yes, precisely. We discovered the perpetrators and we filed a
15 report with the prosecutor's office and we handed him over.
16 Q. Thank you. Tell me, you mentioned a number of policemen who were
17 from elsewhere, who were not from Sarajevo and who were not familiar with
18 Sarajevo, where did most of these policemen come from, to the best of
19 your knowledge or in your view?
20 A. To the best of my knowledge, 90 per cent of these persons came
21 from the territory of Sandzak in Serbia, or the north of Montenegro.
22 Q. Since I'm not sure that the Trial Chamber is familiar with this,
23 as well as the rest, tell me, the territory of Sandzak is partly in
24 Serbia and partly in Montenegro; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Tell me, what is the predominant ethnicity in Sandzak?
2 A. Muslim. Bosniak nowadays, they've changed their name.
3 Q. These persons that you spoke about that were employed in the
4 police force and were not familiar with the town of Sarajevo, were they
5 ethnic Muslims, or rather, ethnic Bosniaks?
6 A. One hundred per cent Bosniak ethnicity.
7 Q. Tell me, sir, in your opinion, did politics and policymakers
8 interfere in the work of the Ministry of the Interior in Bosnia in 1991?
9 A. Well, I can speak about that from the point of view of a
10 policeman who literally worked in the street at the time. Our problems
11 were manifested in the following: When it was evident that certain
12 persons had committed a crime, and if we established that during the
13 course of our own work, we could not prosecute them further.
14 Unfortunately, these were ordinary criminals, but it was the very first
15 time that that kind of thing happened then. If a person had any kind of
16 ties to a political party, a national one, if we were to bring that
17 person before the public prosecutor, very often we were not allowed to
18 take the measures that we had requested, measures that had been standard
19 procedure up until then.
20 Q. Tell me, what measures do you have in mind?
21 A. Well, custody, searching apartments, qualifying the crime
22 involved and so on.
23 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, do you have any knowledge
24 regarding illegal arming in 1991 or the latter part of 1991?
25 A. Once again, I can speak of two particular cases from my very own
2 Q. Please go ahead.
3 A. The first question was when the traffic police stopped a vehicle
4 which was a minivan owned by the Islamic religious community in Sarajevo.
5 In that vehicle they found 400 sniper rifles which were travelling --
6 which were being transported from the Zrak factory in Sarajevo which was
7 the factory producing optical material, and they were allegedly headed to
8 the hunting association in Citluk.
9 Since we had an ability to monitor radio communications of our
10 police on the ground in the field, we knew right away about this. We
11 requested that this vehicle be set aside and taken to the special unit
12 base where we wanted to check their documents. However, by the time we
13 reached that base, the vehicle had already been released; that is to say,
14 it had been allowed to continue moving. This had been approved by
15 somebody from the top echelons of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina; whereas
16 we were not allowed to do our work.
17 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, tell me, was it customary for weapons to be
18 transported in this way; that is to say, in a minivan owned by the
19 Islamic religious community?
20 A. Absolutely not. It was not possible for somebody to transport
21 400 sniper rifles allegedly intended for the hunting association.
22 Q. All right. Now, tell us about this second case?
23 A. Well, the second case was about the police stopping a truck,
24 trailer truck, or rather, two trailer trucks, transporting weapons and
25 military equipment. And this happened in Hadzici. By the time the
1 policemen of the town SUP had reached the area, one of the trailer trucks
2 had managed to flee the location; whereas the other one, pursuant to the
3 order of the chief of that police station, had been released because
4 allegedly its papers were in order.
5 I would like to tell you that the standard procedure up to 1991,
6 as well as today, was such that all transport of weapons and ammunition
7 had to have a proper police permit. And the police was duty-bound in
8 such cases to escort the vehicles with this kind of goods via its
9 territory, precisely to prevent any possible abuse.
10 Q. In both of these cases that you described to us, was this
11 procedure followed?
12 A. No, because had it been followed, we wouldn't have reacted
13 because we would have had the decision of the relevant body, the body in
14 charge of these matters. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, this is referred as
15 so-called B materiel. The police escorted on a daily basis transport
16 carrying explosives or weapons.
17 Q. Are you now referring to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes, I'm now referring to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
21 Q. Tell me, please, was this procedure observed when, say,
22 explosives were transported for the needs of some mines in the territory
23 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes, all transport of explosives required that this procedure be
1 Q. Sir, Mr. Tusevljak, was this procedure observed also when hunting
2 weapons were transported intended for the shops selling such goods to
4 A. I do not really study these matters in depth. However, in all
5 cases involving large quantities of weapons, that is to say, not one
6 rifle or five rifles, permits were needed and there needed to be police
7 escort for such transport.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tusevljak. Now, let us move to another topic. In
9 the night before the 3rd and 4th of April in 1992 in Sarajevo, where were
10 you and what was your position at the time?
11 A. At that time I was -- I still occupied my position in the town
12 SUP of Sarajevo performing the same type of work. However, at that point
13 in time we received an order from the chief of sector Jozo Leotar that we
14 had to have our own separate duty service. And this duty service of
15 operatives was supposed to convey to us all information about the events
16 taking place in the territory of the ten Sarajevo municipalities.
17 Q. Just a question: What was the ethnicity of Mr. Jozo Leotar, your
18 immediate superior?
19 A. He was an ethnic Croat.
20 Q. Can you tell us what did you observe -- or, rather, were you on
21 duty that night?
22 A. In addition to this duty service, we also had a mandatory task to
23 tour, to patrol the town in our vehicles, as did the police stations in
24 our -- under our jurisdiction, in our territory. This was already April,
25 and as is well known, on the 30th of March a member of the Serbian
1 wedding party was killed in Bascarsija. Barricades had already been
2 erected around Sarajevo.
3 Q. I apologise, but this murder took place on the 29th of February
4 or the 1st of March.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm just trying to refresh the memory of the
6 witness. I mean, this is not disputed.
7 MS. KORNER: No, it's not disputed, but if he wrongly links
8 things, that may be relevant and he oughtn't be told when things
10 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Please go ahead, sir, and answer the question.
12 A. Since it's been so many years and I'm still in the police
13 business and I was involved in many events, as I still am today, I
14 apologise for occasionally making a mistake when it comes to certain
15 dates or days in the week. However, the killing of the member of the
16 wedding party and the barricades is something that indeed took place in
17 Sarajevo. Following these events, and once the law and order were
18 seriously disturbed and various crimes committed, from murder to
19 robberies and burglaries, the state of alert was raised in the town SUP
20 and it required us to do this kind of work.
21 Q. Perhaps it was my mistake since I pin-pointed the date. Please
22 tell us what you saw that night when you were on duty service and
23 patrolled the town of Sarajevo?
24 A. What we saw was that around all police stations there were armed
25 civilians and that they literally controlled -- had the ability to
1 prevent anyone from going in or coming out of the police station. They
2 controlled access.
3 Q. Did you inform your immediate superiors in the MUP about this?
4 A. Yes, absolutely. Everything we observed on that night or any
5 other night was conveyed to our immediate superiors.
6 Q. Do you know who Enes Bezdrob and Ismet Dahic were?
7 A. Enes Bezdrob was chief of the Stari Grad SJB, whereas Ismet Dahic
8 was the police commander in that police station.
9 Q. As you patrolled the town on that night, did you also go to the
10 Stari Grad SJB to see Mr. Bezdrob and Mr. Dahic? And what did you find
11 there, if so?
12 A. When I -- the night when I went to the Stari Grad SJB was the
13 night after the killing of the member of the wedding party in Bascarsija.
14 As I have told you, whenever grave crimes were committed, our colleagues
15 from the Sarajevo SJB, or rather, from the Sarajevo CSB would engage us,
16 would involve us in resolving these crimes together with them. They did
17 so because the town SUP -- in our department, we also had the search and
18 tracing department.
19 So that same night, some two hours after the killing, together
20 with several of police officers, whom I managed to reach because I think
21 it was a Sunday, I started working on resolving this crime. Very
22 quickly, we managed to find out who the perpetrators were, and we also
23 received intelligence to the effect of where they were hiding. I think
24 that from today's point of view -- I mean, looking at it now, I think our
25 only mistake was that we informed about this the people who were above
1 us, who were our superiors, and had already been deeply involved in some
2 other business in addition to their regular police duties.
3 Q. Sir, just a minute, please. My specific question was: Did you
4 go to see Mr. Bezdrob and Mr. Dahic that night, and what did you find
5 upon going there? Would you please answer that question.
6 A. When we got to the Stari Grad police station, it had been blocked
7 by a taxi vehicle, so we were unable to approach it. We asked why the
8 police station had been blocked, and two or three minutes later, the
9 vehicles dispersed. When we went into the office of these gentlemen, it
10 was the first time that I saw a radio -- a radio station that didn't
11 belong to members of the Ministry of the Interior, and there was intense
12 communication on this radio between members of the Patriotic League and
13 the Green Berets. We realised that they were the ones who were
14 practically co-ordinating all these activities.
15 Q. Tell me, when you say it was a radio station, what sort of radio
16 station was used by the MUP of the Socialist Republic of BH, and what was
17 the radio station that you saw in that evening in the office of
18 Enes Bezdrob and Ismet Dahic?
19 A. The MUP of Republika Srpska had Motorolas.
20 Q. I didn't ask you about the MUP of Republika Srpska. I asked you
21 about the MUP of the Socialist Republic of B&H.
22 A. I apologise, it was a slip of the tongue. The MUP of the
23 Socialist Republic of B&H had standard Motorolas and this was an
24 Alinco-make radio station. I remember that because sometime after that
25 I, myself, had such a radio station.
1 Q. When you say "after that," was that during your employment in the
2 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or after that?
3 A. After that when I was employed in the RS MUP.
4 Q. Sir, do you remember when the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina split up?
6 A. The MUP split up sometime in early April of 1992.
7 Q. Who informed you that the MUP had been divided?
8 A. As far as I can recall, I believe that it was my direct superior,
9 Goran Macar, who informed me.
10 Q. What instructions did you receive from your immediate superior,
11 Goran Macar?
12 A. We were told to continue going to work at the Sarajevo town SUP,
13 to continue working, and that we would later see -- it would later turn
14 out what this split would eventually look like.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tusevljak, I was waiting for your explanation
16 to something that you said a while ago in response to a question put to
17 you by Counsel Zecevic. Namely, that you thought that the only mistake
18 that you had made was to report the events after the killing in
19 Bascarsija to your superiors. Do you recall saying that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you explain what you mean by this? Why was
22 it a mistake to report this to your superiors?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time in the CSB, the
24 department chiefs in the CSB were my superiors at the time. Had we, the
25 operatives who found out where these people were, gone and arrested them,
1 some things might have evolved differently in Sarajevo. However, when I
2 got to the Stari Grad police station, from the CSB to the police station,
3 I could see that all the streets had been blocked. I went into the
4 police station and then I realised - this was a multi-ethnic group that I
5 was with -- I realised that we would never get to these perpetrators and
6 that all the waiting that we had to endure before we actually went into
7 action was just in order to hide the perpetrators.
8 I know I was right then because I saw a television programme and
9 I saw it Ramiz Delalic, Celo, who talked about this in 1993, and he
10 bragged about the fact that it was the police who let him and his
11 co-perpetrators out of Sarajevo. Unfortunately, already then, some of us
12 were doing the police work professionally and some other people were
13 engaged in other things.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. May I remind you again to be as brief
15 as you can in your responses.
16 Just for clarification, do you mean to say that some of your
17 superiors tipped off the perpetrators after you had informed them of what
18 had happened and thus the perpetrators were able to disappear? Is that
19 what you said?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about this one specific
21 case, and it's obvious that somebody in the chain of command failed.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
23 Back to you, Mr. Zecevic.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, just a few questions. On page 24, you said, "At
1 that time in the CSB, my superiors in the CSB," as far as I understood
2 you at that time in 1992, in early 1992, you worked in the town SUP. So
3 tell us, please, whether this was the town SUP or the CSB?
4 A. If we operatives from the town SUP assisted in discovering
5 crimes, if we assisted operatives from the CSB and if they were
6 hierarchically above us, then they were the ones who managed both me or
7 my operatives and not somebody from the town SUP.
8 Q. Does that mean that when you say that there was some problems
9 with command and that information regarding the perpetrators leaked out,
10 that this went along this line of hierarchy according to which you were
11 involved in these tasks?
12 A. Yes, absolutely.
13 Q. Sir, in early April where was your office located, in which
15 A. In the building of the Sarajevo town SUP on the fourth floor. In
16 August Cesarac Street, I don't know what the name of the street is today.
17 This now houses the cantonal SUP of Sarajevo.
18 Q. After your immediate superior Mr. Goran Macar informed you that
19 MUP had been divided and that you were to continue working until the
20 split is finalised structurally, did you continue with your work and your
21 duties as you would normally?
22 A. Yes, as long as that was possible.
23 Q. [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE HALL: If you are moving on to something else, this would
25 be --
1 MR. ZECEVIC: I just have one question, Your Honour, then I would
2 be moving to something else, if I may.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, which was the last day that you spent in that
6 building of the town SUP?
7 A. I believe it was a Friday or a Saturday. I can't recall
8 precisely, but it was in early April. 3rd -- the night between the
9 3rd -- the night between the 3rd and the 4th or the 4th and the 5th, I'm
10 not really sure, but I know it was the end of the week.
11 JUDGE HALL: So we take our first break for the day. We would
12 resume in 20 minutes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, Your Honours, while the witness is
17 ushered in, I'm afraid I'm not going to make things easier. When I was
18 citing the pending motion, I forgot one, and that is our motion for
19 adjudicated fact, which -- adjudicated facts, which is also, I think,
20 important for us to have before the last witness.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
22 And we appreciate counsel's indulgence for the extended break but
23 we communicated the reasons through our Legal Officer. Thank you.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: We, while the witness is ushered in, ask OTP and
25 the Zupljanin Defence about their estimates on the witness Macar, is that
1 the name, Zecevic, your last one?
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Macar.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Goran Macar. Can you assist us with that,
4 Ms. Korner?
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours, it's difficult with all these
7 witnesses because what is on the 65 ter is never what comes out. Twenty
8 hours is the estimate for the Defence. I would estimate probably not at
9 much, but it's difficult to say how long, as I say, until we have a clear
10 idea, particularly of documents that he is going to be taken through.
11 But I'd say roughly in the region of between three and 4 days, so about
12 16 hours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Aleksic?
14 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again, for the take
15 sake of caution, I will say no more than three hours. We may not need
16 any time at all, but just for the sake of caution.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: May I continue, Your Honours? Thank you very much.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, before we continue discussing the
20 details of what happened later, you mentioned that the chief of the
21 sector at the town SUP was Mr. Goran Macar, how many operatives, how many
22 inspectors were in that sector in 1991?
23 A. I am sorry, Goran Macar was the chief of the department, not the
24 chief of the sector. Mr. Jozo Leotar was the chief of the sector. As
25 for our department, I'll just need a minute to think about it. I think
1 about eight inspectors.
2 Q. What was the ethnic composition of these inspectors, was it
4 A. Yes, there were all ethnicities.
5 Q. When the chief of the department, Mr. Goran Macar, informed you
6 about the division of the MUP and, as you said, he instructed you to
7 continue working as you had before, did Mr. Macar inform only you or all
8 the employees in the department?
9 A. Everybody in the department knew that the MUP would be divided
10 and we even joked about that. We joked about who would get which table
11 and how we would cut up the tables. There was no bad feelings among us
12 who were working there.
13 Q. Another small digression before we get back to the events of
14 April 1992, tell me, in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of B&H,
15 technical equipment and materiel needed for the work of the MUP, was this
16 equipment and materiel stored in a central location?
17 A. I believe -- I believe that this was because I knew about one
18 such warehouse. The police stations had only what they needed for their
19 day-to-day work in the police stations themselves.
20 Q. Which warehouse did you know about, which central warehouse of
21 the MUP did you know about?
22 A. This is a warehouse that I never visited. It was somewhere
23 towards Rakovica in a place called Duboki Potok or something like that,
24 and that's where most of the equipment of the Republican MUP was located.
25 Q. Do you know about a MUP facility called Zlatiste, and what do you
1 know about it?
2 A. I do know about the facility. I know where it was located, but I
3 think it was a facility of the state security service, and we from public
4 security station didn't have access to that a facility and to similar
6 Q. Please have a look at document 140, that is 65 ter 757D1. Sir,
7 the date of this document is the 3rd of July, 1991. It says the
8 Ministry of the Interior, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 Sarajevo. It is addressed to the administration for financial matters
10 and tasks. The subject is "order to relocate weapons and ammunition,"
11 and it is signed by Mesud Omerspahic. Tell me, did you know
12 Mr. Omerspahic or have you heard of him, Mr. Mesud Omerspahic?
13 A. I did not know him personally except for the fact that through
14 all this paperwork we knew that he was the head of office, the Chef de
15 Cabinet, of Alija Delimustafic, the then minister of the interior.
16 Q. In this document, it is stated that upon an order of the minister
17 MUP weapons and ammunition stored at the Rakovica facility has to be
18 relocated forthwith to the Zlatiste facility, and protection and secrecy
19 must be ensured in the implementation of this task. Did you know about
20 that in 1991, that ammunition and weapons from the Rakovica facility was
21 relocated to the Zlatiste facility?
22 A. No, I didn't know about that.
23 Q. Tell me, the Rakovica facility, did it belong to the public
24 security service or the state security?
25 A. To the best of my knowledge, it belonged to the public security
1 service. It was our property.
2 Q. And what about this facility Zlatiste, was that a facility with
3 limited access?
4 A. Yes, it was a facility that was completely sealed off and, as
5 I've already said, we had no access.
6 Q. What service did it belong to, this facility?
7 A. The state security service.
8 Q. Do you remember who was the chief of service of the state
9 security service at that time in 1991?
10 A. I cannot recall exactly. I think it was Vesic or someone, I
11 don't know.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, for the sake of clarity, I would like
14 to ask this document to be MFI'd.
15 MS. KORNER: On what basis? The witness says nothing about it.
16 I am assuming he hasn't been asked, but he hasn't seen the document
17 before. We don't know where the document comes from. I'm not at all
18 clear on the basis on which it can be MFI'd.
19 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner has asked the question I was just about
20 to ask, Mr. Zecevic.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, perhaps the witness can take
22 the -- his headphones off.
23 Your Honours, the witness testified that he had knowledge of
24 these two facilities. The provenance of the document is RS MUP, and we
25 provided the Office of the Prosecutor with the list of all the documents
1 we received from them. Now, the -- I agree that the witness does not
2 know about the document and haven't seen it before, and he is not aware
3 of the fact. But I would like to -- that is precisely why I ask that
4 this document be MFI'd because the witness was talking about it -- was
5 talking about these two facilities, and that's the main point which I'm
6 trying to establish; namely, that on the order of the Ministry of the
7 Interior, the ammunition and the arms have been moved from the official
8 storage into secret other place owned by the state security and that this
9 was a secret operation. And that is precisely why I think it's important
10 for the context of the events that unfolded in the beginning of 1992.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no
12 evidence at all of this movement, nor the relevance to anything. And we
13 say at the moment there's no basis at all for this document even being
14 marked MFI.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, MFI pending what?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, just because I've shown this
17 document to the witness and he commented on it --
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: But what would allow us to lift, at any
19 point, the --
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, perhaps I will show it to another witness who
21 might be able to recognise the document, so just for the sake of the
22 transcript that these two documents -- that the comments of this witness
23 and, perhaps, another witness will be brought in connection. That is the
24 only reason I --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: So pending the showing -- pending the testimony
1 of --
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Pending showing it to another witness or bar table
3 motion, yes.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE HALL: On the expectation, Mr. Zecevic, that you are able
6 to show a nexus between this document and another witness, it will be
7 marked for identification.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D573, marked for identification,
10 Your Honours.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, you told us that your last day was Friday or
13 Saturday, sometime in the beginning of April. Tell me, at the time were
14 you carrying out any preparations for transferring to the MUP of
15 Republika Srpska?
16 A. No, no. We were not carrying out any kind of preparations. I
17 lived in Nedzarici. The population is mostly ethnic Serbs. And, as I
18 said, I went home from work. I can support that with the following: All
19 my personal belongings, my graduate records from university, all my other
20 personal belongings, all of that remained in my office.
21 Q. You said that you went home to Nedzarici. Tell me, where is
22 Nedzarici, is that part of Sarajevo?
23 A. Yes, that is part of Sarajevo and it's between the airport of
24 Sarajevo and Dobrinja and Alipasino Polje.
25 Q. Tell me, which public security station does Nedzarici belong to
1 from a territorial point of view, at that time that is?
2 A. To the public security station of Novi Grad in Sarajevo,
3 territorially speaking.
4 Q. All right. Tell us what happened after you returned home from
5 work on that Friday or Saturday.
6 A. That evening, when I came home from work, attacks had already
7 started against all police stations in Sarajevo. These attacks were
8 being carried out by the Green Berets and the Patriotic League. I and a
9 colleague of mine were assigned to tour those police stations that
10 evening, and as I've already said, they were -- there were many members
11 of the Green Berets and Patriotic League around at the time, for the time
12 being -- I mean, at that time, they were still considered to be
13 civilians, armed civilians, who surrounded the police stations. And very
14 soon we found out that a policeman had been killed at the police station
15 of Novo Sarajevo.
16 Q. Tell me, which policeman was killed?
17 A. Pero Petrovic was the policeman killed. He was a member of the
18 police station for training dogs and horses. That police station was
19 also under the SUP of Sarajevo, the town SUP of Sarajevo. According to
20 what we knew then - and now I can speak about what I learned subsequently
21 as well because in my work we did investigate that particular crime -
22 this policeman caught a person who was breaking into the privately-owned
23 vehicle of a neighbour of his who was a Bosniak, and they went together
24 to hand that person over to the police station of Novo Sarajevo, because
25 this policeman had lived in the territory of the municipality of
1 Novo Sarajevo. And he acted in accordance with regulations.
2 However, what happened was that once they arrived at that police
3 station, a colleague of his who was the duty policeman stopped him and
4 asked him to have a cup of coffee together with him. He stayed for that
5 cup of coffee. However, at that moment, the Green Berets barged into
6 that police station, or members of the Patriotic League. They took the
7 shift leader prisoner and also this policeman who was wearing civilian
8 clothes. They took him to the basement. And when they asked him what
9 his name was, he said Pero Petrovic - otherwise, Pero Petrovic is a
10 symbolic name for Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina - and one of these
11 Green Berets simply shot him dead.
12 Q. Thank you. Sir, on the next day, did you go to work? Did you
13 manage to go to work?
14 A. No. That had already turned into mission impossible because the
15 town of Sarajevo was blockaded, there were roadblocks in the streets yet
16 again, and, quite simply, I could not leave my neighbourhood anymore. I
17 could not enter the territory that was under the control of the
18 Green Berets and the Patriotic League.
19 Q. Could you please have a look at document P986, which is tab 148.
20 I don't know if you have it, but it is going to show up on the screen.
21 That is a map of the town of Sarajevo. I'm sure that you are going to
22 get a clearer picture on the screen.
23 Sir, I don't know whether you will be able to but I would kindly
24 ask you to mark the headquarters of the town SUP where your office was at
25 the time. The usher will give you a pen. He will assist us kindly. And
1 could you please put a circle around Nedzarici.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Your Honours, I didn't hear your suggestion.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: My suggestion was to have the Registrar enlarge
4 the map a bit, otherwise the witness will be unable to find the exact
5 spot on the map.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Please wait, Mr. Tusevljak, we need to zoom in.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] The middle area of the map, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's fine.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Is this all right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No, no need for that. The previous
14 one was fine. [In English] Can we have the map enlarged again, just once.
15 Okay. That's enough. Thank you very much.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Tusevljak, would you please mark with
17 an X the headquarters of the town MUP and put number 1 next to it.
18 A. I apologise, I first marked Nedzarici.
19 Q. All right. Then put number 1 there. Now, would you please mark
20 roughly where the town SUP was?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Put a 2 there.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Now that we are dealing with this map, would you please show
25 us -- or, rather, tell us, did you, and if so when, go to the school in
1 Vrace after these events?
2 A. Since I found out that the headquarters of the Serbian Ministry
3 of the Interior was in Vrace, I went perhaps on the 7th or 8th of April,
4 1992, to see what was happening and what was going on with us.
5 Q. Would you please mark with an X the school in Vrace and put a 3
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Sir, what was the situation like when you arrived in the school
9 at Vrace?
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I need the witness to mark another
11 location. So we can keep it like this until he marks another location
12 and then we'll save it, or maybe we save it now and then ... okay. Thank
13 you very much.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, tell me, please, when you arrived
15 in Vrace, what did you find there? What was the situation like? What
16 was the general situation like at that moment?
17 A. It was chaotic for the simple reason that on that occasion at the
18 school I met only one operative whom I knew who worked at the SJB
19 Novo Sarajevo, and who basically was lost himself. He didn't know what
20 we needed to do. I think that in passing I also saw
21 Mr. Dobro Planojevic, who at the time was the commander of the Centar
22 police station, who had come with some of his policemen.
23 I returned to Nedzarici and reported to the reserve police
24 station, which was located in that neighbourhood, and I put myself at
25 their disposal there.
1 Q. Was there a conflict on at the time in Sarajevo?
2 A. Yes, there had already been clashes, both in Vrace and elsewhere
3 in town. There were clashes between the Territorial Defence of
4 Republika Srpska and the Territorial Defence of the then Bosnia and
6 Q. Tell me, please, when did you return to Vrace again, if you can
8 A. Some two or three days later, perhaps. I came again because it
9 was still possible to pass by the Sarajevo airport, so I could reach the
10 area, but I also wanted to see what needed to be done, where would I
11 work, what would I do, and so on.
12 Q. [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you please mark on this document the airport and put an X
17 and number 4 there.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you. What happened upon your second return it to Vrace?
20 Were you given an assignment?
21 A. No, somebody from the then leadership told me to stay in
22 Nedzarici. I think that I also received an appointment letter or
23 something to that effect appointing me head of police in Nedzarici. That
24 police station in Nedzarici never had the crime police before.
25 Q. And what did you do then?
1 A. In the following month, or perhaps a bit after that, I stayed in
2 Nedzarici. I would occasionally come to Vrace whenever it was possible
3 to pass through the Sarajevo airport. The Ministry of the Interior of
4 Republika Srpska was already being established. Dobro Planojevic became
5 chief of the crime police administration, and I was again given the role
6 of a co-ordinator for the town of Sarajevo within the crime police.
7 However, that role mostly involved me trying to find out where the
8 operatives who had already left the town of Sarajevo were. Many of them
9 were blocked, basically, blocked somewhere in town. And in the territory
10 of Republika Srpska, there were mostly operatives who had their houses
11 there and we also had available to us those who had managed to flee to
12 Pale and to some other areas that were under the control of
13 Republika Srpska.
14 We started drawing up lists of those people --
15 Q. Just a minute, please.
16 MR. ZECEVIC [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I would
17 tender this document marked by the witness.
18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D574, Your Honours.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Let me show you tab 149 which is 65 ter 7D1.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 7D1. 0007D1. If we
23 can get the Serbian version as well, please.
24 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, this document is dated 15th of May, 1992. It says
25 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior,
1 Sarajevo. And it's entitled "List of the Operatives in the Territory of
2 Sarajevo." And underneath that we see Tusevljak, Simo, co-ordinator for
3 the town of Sarajevo. Can you please explain to us what this document
4 means, what it is about, and what does it mean that you were the
5 co-ordinator for the town of Sarajevo?
6 A. That's precisely what I told you. My task was to locate these
7 operatives who had left the town. And based on the location where we
8 found them, we were coming up with tasks and duties for them in that
9 area. That was one task that needed to be done. The other thing was
10 that these people had literally fled the town in their slippers. I had
11 to inform Dobro Planojevic about how many operatives had left the
12 territory of Sarajevo and were now in the territory of Republika Srpska.
13 Q. What kind of operatives are we talking about here?
14 A. These are the operatives of the crime police who used to work in
15 the territory of Sarajevo. They worked on general crime, white-collar
16 crime cases, forensics, and counter-sabotage protection. You can also
17 see here that out of ten police stations that used to exist in town, we
18 have only five represented on this list.
19 Q. Does this list pertain to all operatives of the crime police
20 whose whereabouts you knew -- rather, you knew that they had left the
21 town of Sarajevo and these were the people that you could count on to
22 become the members of the MUP of Republika Srpska?
23 A. Well, this list was drawn up based on the locations from which
24 these operatives reported.
25 Q. To clarify this - did I understand you well - these are the
1 persons who left the town of Sarajevo, they reported to some SJBs, and
2 then these SJBs, in turn, informed you that these persons had reported
3 that they had left Sarajevo. Did I understand you well?
4 A. Yes, but at the time the phones were not working so we, as
5 operatives, communicated among ourselves.
6 Q. Sir, you have to be -- you have to make a break between my
7 question and your answer because a large portion of your answer was not
8 recorded. This is why I had to go back and ask you again.
9 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, obviously Mr. Zecevic heard me
10 say, Where did he say that? Because it wasn't apparent. But I really
11 think the proper way of dealing with this is if a part of the answer is
12 being -- not Mr. Zecevic to clarify, but to do as he has normally done,
13 which is to ask him to repeat the answer.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I wasn't aware that it wasn't recorded.
15 Ms. Korner, only when you made a comment it became apparent to me that it
16 wasn't recorded. Because I tried to stop the witness before giving an
17 answer so he doesn't -- so he doesn't speed up.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, could you please explain to us what this
19 list is about again, please?
20 A. This is the list of operatives who used to work in the territory
21 of Sarajevo who had left the area which was under the control of the
22 Territorial Defence of Republika Srpska and then reported to some police
23 stations or reserve police stations and placed themselves at their
24 disposal; that is to say, they wanted to become members of the MUP of
25 Republika Srpska. Among these persons, there were also people with whom
1 I spoke on the phone, explaining to them that they could sign up to be
2 placed at the disposal of the MUP of Republika Srpska.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Since there are no objections, I
4 would like to tender this document.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: What is the relevance, Mr. Zecevic?
7 MR. ZECEVIC: The relevance, is, Your Honours, the number of
8 policemen available at that point in the MUP of Republika Srpska. The
9 criminal police inspectors.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: But it doesn't really say that, does it?
11 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, we don't object. We don't agree
12 that's a proper reading, and I'm going to re-examine -- re-examine,
13 cross-examine on it. So we don't object to it being marked.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: As far as I have understood the witness, this
15 list shows the names of some of the policemen who fled the city of
16 Sarajevo after the attacks, and so the witness tried to get hold of them
17 again, and so what?
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Well perhaps the witness can take his phones off
19 again so I will explain.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, could you take off your headphones.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, the point is the following: The
23 witness came to Vrace. He was given a task to be a co-ordinator for the
24 city of Sarajevo concerning the criminal police. Now, he is trying to
25 gather all operatives from the criminal police available at the moment,
1 which is mid-May, and that is the list of all the people who were
2 operatives of the criminal police which were available to the MUP of
3 Republika Srpska in Sarajevo at that point. I think that's very
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D575, Your Honours.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, apart from the people listed on this document,
9 were there other operatives from the crime police who were available to
10 you for work in the RS MUP in the territory of Sarajevo?
11 A. No. This is the list that we made at the time for the town of
12 Sarajevo. There were many more operatives in the town of Sarajevo who
13 were unable to leave the town or who didn't report to the RS MUP.
14 Q. Thank you. Sir, how long were you a co-ordinator for the town of
15 Sarajevo, for the crime police?
16 A. I believe until I became chief of the crime police department of
17 the then Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre because the town SUP no
18 longer existed in the RS MUP.
19 Q. Tell me, when you say Romanija-Birac CSB, are you referring to
20 the CSB that was sometimes also called the Sarajevo CSB?
21 A. Well, when the Serbian autonomous regions were created, the
22 Romanija-Birac centre was sometimes called the Sarajevo centre.
23 Q. Sir, when were you appointed, if you remember, chief of the crime
24 police department in the Sarajevo CSB, Romanija-Birac, that is?
25 A. I believe that was in June. I don't have that letter of
1 appointment so I can't be precise.
2 Q. Was anybody in that function before you, and if so, who was it?
3 A. I believe that Nikola Milanovic was in that function for a while
4 but I don't know whether he had an actual letter of appointment.
5 Q. And where was the seat of the Romanija-Birac Sarajevo CSB at the
7 A. Initially, it was housed in the school in Vrace for a very short
8 time, and then later on, sometime in July, it was Energoinvest in
10 Q. Is that the building --
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D574
12 again, please.
13 Q. [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's tab 148. And the original
17 document is 5986, but could we get 574, that's the map that the witness
18 marked. He marked certain locations in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Sir, could you mark for us on this map, with a cross and the
20 number 5, the building of Energoinvest in Lukavica where the CSB was
21 located from July of 1992, please?
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure whether
25 we can record this exhibit under the same number or under an additional
2 JUDGE HALL: So it has the same number. I understand technically
3 there's no difficulty.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
5 I see the time, Your Honours, I don't know whether we are taking
6 the break now.
7 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... If this is a
8 convenient point, Mr. Zecevic.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, it is. Yes.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.
13 JUDGE HALL: While the witness is on his way back in, returning
14 to a matter that was raised at the beginning of today's sitting, and that
15 is the Stanisic motion to add 41 documents to the 65 ter list. Bearing
16 in mind the distinction between the addition of documents to the 65 ter
17 list and their admission, we would wish the Prosecution to respond to the
18 question of addition by tomorrow afternoon, and, of course, admission
19 would fall to be decided as and when the applications arise.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I appreciate that, but I would
22 say that it's somewhat unequal in arms. If Your Honour will recall the
23 number of times we had to apply formally to add documents to our 65 ter
24 list, and were given -- and the Defence was given the time to respond.
25 There are 41 documents. As far as I can tell, most of the documents on
1 the recent one are to do with this -- or their attempt is to get them in
2 with this witness, as I said, we'll see where we are at the end of the
3 day. I would respectfully ask that that matter be left until such time
4 as we've seen where we go with this witness. I mean, tomorrow afternoon
5 when it was filed yesterday afternoon is, with the greatest of respect,
6 we would suggest, slightly unfair.
7 JUDGE HALL: We are losing sight of the fact that the admission
8 of these documents would still have to be decided. It's the --
9 MS. KORNER: Yes, but they haven't even got -- sorry.
10 JUDGE HALL: It's the preliminary, if I may call it that,
11 question of their being added to the 65 ter list at this stage, and it is
12 only that first step that we are asking for this expedited response.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes, but, Your Honour, the fact is they have gone
14 half, 50 per cent, of the way through to getting them in by getting them
15 on the 65 ter list. Most of these documents, I must say really fairly
16 quickly, have been available to the Defence forever and ever. They say
17 they've only just dug them out of EDS recently, which I am not going to
18 go into at the moment. But we say it's unfair to only give us only
19 effectively 48 hours to respond when we are entitled to 14 days and -
20 just a moment, please, Mr. Zecevic - some of them are not even
21 translated, so we have no idea what is in them.
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, the documents which we offered
24 by the motion are not the documents we found on the EDS exclusively.
25 There is -- if Your Honours will remember, there has been 130 documents
1 which have been disclosed to us for the very first time signed by our
2 client by the Office of the Prosecutor, and some of them are in the --
3 this motion. Therefore, it is not entirely our fault. And first and
4 foremost, we have heard a number of times that Office of the Prosecutor
5 was saying that there has been problems with the search engines. Well,
6 as they have problems with the search engines, so do we. And this is the
7 EDS and there's nothing we can do about it. Once the document will
8 appear; on the other occasion, they will not appear. That is just beyond
9 either of the parties. That's one thing.
10 The second thing: Your Honour will remember that at least on 15
11 occasions during the Prosecutor's case, there has been a request for the
12 expedited response by the Trial Chamber, and in all of these -- on each
13 and every one of these occasions we accepted and gave our expedited
14 response because we understood the reasons why it was requested from us.
15 Therefore, I think there has been no inequality of arms in this case.
16 Thank you.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not saying we want the 14 days.
18 I'm simply saying that tomorrow afternoon is just too short a period for
19 us to -- and particularly, as I say, as we don't have translations for
20 some of these documents.
21 JUDGE HALL: Of course, the ones that are not translated, that's
22 then a wholly different category, and we take your point there.
23 MS. KORNER: I'm told - Mr. Smith is going to give me
24 information - of the 41 documents, 19 have no translations.
25 JUDGE HALL: So could we expect your response in respect of the
1 41 minus 19?
2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, can I -- at the moment,
3 obviously, I'm here. And can I come back to you tomorrow if we have a
4 problem? Otherwise we'll obviously see what we can do.
5 JUDGE HALL: We would be grateful for your co-operation,
6 Ms. Korner.
7 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of assistance, Your Honours, we are
9 notified by VWS that 14 of these documents will be -- CLSS, I'm sorry.
10 CLSS. That 14 of these documents have been translated and will be
11 uploaded in the morning. So that means that only five are still pending
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 Mr. Zecevic, as you continue, I would need five minutes before we
15 rise for the day, so if the witness can be excused at that point because
16 there's a ruling which has to be given in private session.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. May I continue now,
18 Your Honours?
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, I've been informed by the Registrar that you will
22 have to mark the seat of the CSB Romanija-Birac Sarajevo with the X and
23 the number 5 once again on the map because last time it wasn't recorded
24 due to electronic problems. So if you could do that again.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Registrar
3 to save this document under the number that we already had, 1D574.
4 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, when talking about the general crime department,
5 could you explain to us what this department contains in accordance with
6 the regulations, as a structure?
7 A. When talking about the general crime department only, it contains
8 operative groups that investigate crimes in the field of classical
9 crimes, as it were. That means there can be a department for
10 property-related crimes, for sexual crimes, and a department for other
11 types of crimes such as organised crime, drugs. That is mainly what the
12 general crime department deals with.
13 Q. Page 48, line 9, says sexual crimes. Sexual crimes. I believe
14 you said something else?
15 A. For murders and sexual crimes.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Sexual and violent
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. As for the sector of the crime prevention administration, what is
20 in its purview? What was in its purview according to the law and the
21 valid regulations at the time, that is in the MUP of the
22 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. Apart from the general crime department, there's also
24 white-collar crime department, forensics department, fire prevention
25 department, and counter-terrorism and counter-sabotage department. These
1 are the five basic departments. However, the administration at the level
2 of the ministry also had an operative department.
3 Q. Let us explain that. At the level of the Security Services
4 Centre, the sector for crime prevention, the crime prevention sector, if
5 I calculate it correctly, it contained five different departments; is
6 that correct? Did I understand you correctly?
7 A. Yes, it should contain five different departments.
8 Q. And at the level of the administration or the ministry, there is
9 an additional sixth department, and its called the operative department?
10 A. I believe this was the case because the MUP of Republic of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Interpreter didn't catch
13 the end of the answer.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: The interpreters didn't get the last part of the
17 witness's answer. Could you ask him to repeat.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Please repeat the end of your last answer.
20 A. At the Ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there was also a chief
21 of the operatives, so there was a department -- an operative department
22 as well.
23 Q. Now, since we've seen that the sector of the crime prevention
24 administration at the level of the CSB and the MUP, and I'm talking about
25 the MUP of the Socialist Republic of B&H, what was the situation like at
1 the level of the SJB in the crime prevention sector?
2 A. At the SJBs there were crime departments but there were no
3 forensics departments. They dealt with general crimes.
4 Q. So did I understand you correctly, can you confirm, at the level
5 of the SJB in the crime prevention sector there was only one department
6 and that was the general crime department; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. At the level of the Security Services Centre in the crime
9 prevention administration there are five departments: The general crime
10 department, the white-collar crime department, the forensics department,
11 the fire prevention department, and the counter-terrorism and
12 counter-sabotage department; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at the level of the MUP, the MUP at the seat in the
15 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, apart from these five, there
16 was an additional sixth department which was the operative department; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, I believe that was the case.
19 Q. Very well. Sir, when in July you were appointed chief of the
20 crime prevention administration at the Sarajevo CSB, that is
21 Romanija-Birac CSB in the Republika Srpska MUP, was the structure or the
22 internal organisation of that sector identical to the organisation that
23 existed in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes, it was a mirror image of it.
25 Q. Does that mean that at the level of the Security Services Centre
1 Sarajevo Romanija-Birac in the crime prevention sector you had these five
2 departments that had existed previously in CSBs in the MUP of the
3 Socialist Republic of B&H?
4 A. We had them at the planning level but none of them existed in the
6 Q. What is the reason for that?
7 A. We didn't have operatives. We didn't have people who had the
8 expert knowledge in order to be able to do these jobs.
9 Q. Sir, when you were chief of the crime prevention sector
10 administration at the level of the CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac in the RS
11 MUP, what was the total number of inspectors that you had in that sector,
12 the total number of inspectors that you had at your disposal?
13 A. Those to whom I was immediate supervisor, well, there were only
14 three of them.
15 Q. Can you tell us their names, if you remember?
16 A. I think Zeljko Rakic was among them, Sasa Blagojevic and a man
17 called Pekic, I think.
18 Q. I'll show you 1D331. That's tab 14. Could you take a look at
19 that document. It's in your binder, it's tab number 14. It says here
20 "crime prevention department" and then there are four names including
21 yours. Are these the people who you talked about a moment ago?
22 A. Yes, this is a payroll list.
23 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, in the crime prevention administration at the
24 Sarajevo Romanija-Birac CSB, did you have a forensics department?
25 A. At the time I believe we had one forensics technician who had not
1 done that work for a long time, Seko Niksic [phoen].
2 Q. So you had only one man, but what period was that? You said at
3 that time we had one, what period are you referring to, if you can
5 A. I believe this was June.
6 Q. Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, what about material required for
8 A. At that point in time, that is to say in May and June, we had
9 nothing. We tried to make due with what we had.
10 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, I understand that you are a professional
11 policeman, but you have to understand that some of us here do not know
12 what this would be, what you can make due with in terms of forensics.
13 Can you be more specific and tell us what you did have and what you did
14 not have and in which period of time and until when?
15 A. In fact, there was a lack of all the material required for
16 forensics at the time. There was only a photo camera that the technician
17 had, and that was absolutely insufficient. In addition to that camera,
18 we did not have even film, and we didn't even have a lab where we could
19 develop any film.
20 Q. And how long did that situation go on in the
21 CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac?
22 A. All the way until the end of the summer of 1992.
23 Q. Did the situation get any better then?
24 A. The situation did get somewhat better but not significantly so.
25 Q. Sir, during your interview with the Prosecution last month, I
1 believe, you drew a map, and I would like to show it to you so that you
2 can give us your comments.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 209 and the document is
5 Q. While we are waiting for the document, Mr. Tusevljak, tell me,
6 please, if you can remember how many public security stations were
7 subordinated to the CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac after it was established
8 within the MUP of Republika Srpska?
9 A. There were 22 public security stations and police stations, as
10 far as I can remember.
11 Q. Sir, do you remember this map? The one that you see in front of
12 you now?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell me, the colours that we see on the map, red and green, are
15 these your inscriptions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell me, what does this denote? What is marked in red on this
18 map? Pink.
19 A. That's the territory that was under the control of the Army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, rather the then Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. What about these lines? The ones that are marked in pink or red?
22 A. These are the lines of separation between the Territorial Defence
23 of Republika Srpska and the Territorial Defence of the Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina which remained more or less the same all the way up
25 until the end of the war in 1995.
1 Q. In order to make things clear for us, I would like to ask you to
2 mark on this map some toponyms, if I can put it that way. Can you use
3 the letter A to mark Nedzarici?
4 A. Nedzarici is in this small circle here in the middle.
5 Q. Could you please place the letter A there.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, maybe it's better if we
7 have the bigger -- or rather, this map but enlarged once. Very well.
8 Q. Could you please mark the airport with the letter B.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. The letter C for the centre of the security services.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Now, letter D for Ilidza. Could you mark that, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Now the letter E, please. Could you mark Vogosca with the letter
15 E for me.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Sir, the airport that you marked with the letter B on this map,
18 under whose control was it in 1992?
19 A. At the very beginning of the war, it was handed over to the
20 international force UNPROFOR, and it was under the control of
21 international forces throughout the war. Both sides of the airport were
22 under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as you can see here.
23 Q. You from the CSB, or rather, from the place where the CSB
24 Sarajevo Romanija-Birac was, did you have any physical contact with
1 A. No, no, there was an interruption because the
2 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina held about 3 kilometres.
3 Q. What about Ilidza?
4 A. Likewise. It was not possible to reach it along the shortest
5 route because --
6 Q. Just a moment, please. Please answer my question. Did you have
7 any physical contact with Ilidza?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you have any physical contact? I mean, when I say physical
10 contact, I mean direct physical contact with Vogosca?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How far away is Ilidza, approximately, under normal conditions
13 from the place where the CSB was at that moment?
14 A. Six to 7 kilometres.
15 Q. What about Vogosca?
16 A. About 15 to 20.
17 Q. Now, sir, when you would leave the CSB in order to go to Vogosca
18 or Ilidza, how long did you have to travel? How long was the route that
19 you had to take?
20 A. About 150 or 160 kilometres.
21 Q. Could you draw the route for us on this map, the route that you
22 took to Vogosca and Ilidza?
23 A. I can do it approximately.
24 Q. Approximately.
25 A. Those roads are not even marked on this map. That would be it
1 roughly, the route that led to Ilidza.
2 Q. Tell me, why did you have to go all the way around in order to
3 get to Ilidza and Vogosca?
4 A. These other roads that were closer were either under the control
5 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or others were constantly under sniper
6 or artillery fire from Sarajevo.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would
9 like to tender this document, this map.
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D576, Your Honours.
12 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
13 JUDGE HALL: The -- this document, I'm advised, is on -- a part
14 of the motion yesterday, so it's marked for identification at this stage.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I can say about this one we don't
16 object. He did -- he drew this in the interview which we had with him.
17 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, it is not yet on your list of
19 documents, is it?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have a list of 205 tabs, and this is 209;
23 MR. ZECEVIC: That's correct, yes. But I thought that --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: We can handle that, Mr. Zecevic.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak -- I am sorry.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, Your Honours, I was advised that we
3 provided the updated list of documents yesterday or early today -- last
4 night, yes. And it has all 209 tabs. I will instruct that it be again
5 forwarded to --
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: We'll find it.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: -- the Trial Chamber.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, did you have any communication with Ilidza,
11 Vogosca, and Nedzarici?
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, [Previous translation continued] ...
13 because it's not clear from the earlier transcript. If by "you,"
14 Mr. Zecevic really means the witness personally, or that -- the MUP at
15 the CSB because it isn't clear from the earlier answers.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, I accept that.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question for you.
18 The CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac, did it have any communication
19 with the public security station of Ilidza?
20 A. No, there was that communication that I drew for you.
21 Q. That means that the only communication -- if I understand what
22 you are saying, the only communication you had was if someone from the
23 CSB traverses 160 kilometres in order to get to Ilidza, or someone from
24 Ilidza takes the same road in order to get to the CSB. Did I understand
25 you properly?
1 A. Yes, precisely.
2 Q. What was the situation with Vogosca?
3 A. The same, perhaps it was about 30 odd kilometres closer though.
4 Q. Ilijas?
5 A. Absolutely the same. It's in the same area.
6 Q. Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, during 1992 what was CSB Sarajevo
7 Romanija-Birac surrounded by? I mean the building where the CSB was.
8 A. Throughout 1992, and for as long as it was in Lukavica, it was
9 under incessant artillery fire of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the
10 Territorial Defence, or it was shelled.
11 Q. Was your office in that building?
12 A. Yes. It wasn't a proper police office. It used to be the
13 cafeteria or something, so it wasn't a proper police office.
14 Q. You did -- or, rather, did you work from that office?
15 A. Yes, that was the only office I had.
16 Q. We heard your earlier testimony to the effect that your home was
17 in Nedzarici, the apartment where you lived. And, also, a moment ago,
18 you told us that there was no communication between the CSB building and
19 Nedzarici. Tell me, where did you live, sleep, et cetera, in 1992?
20 A. In the office where I worked.
21 Q. Did any other senior personnel from the CSB live in a similar
22 way, if I can put it that way?
23 A. Yes, all senior personnel were refugees except for the chief of
24 the centre. We all slept in our offices.
25 Q. Here it says "except for the chief of the centre," where did he
2 A. He slept with us in the office, too. But the man was from
3 Sokolac, so he could go to his home every now and then; whereas the rest
4 of us could not go home at all.
5 Q. Thank you. Sir, 1D106, that is tab number 1 in your binder.
6 That is the document I'd like to show you now. Just a question before we
7 move on to this document. Sir, in the beginning of your testimony today
8 you were saying that public security stations dealt with less serious
9 crime, if I can put it that way, whereas CSBs dealt with more serious
10 crimes. I am talking about the MUP of the Socialist Republic of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did the same principle apply in the MUP of
12 Republika Srpska?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As the CSB and specifically the crime prevention department, were
15 you involved in operative work in the territory of the CSB, at least
16 during this first period of time up until the end of the summer of 1992?
17 A. Well, if you saw that payroll, who could be involved in operative
18 work? There was no operative work.
19 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, according to the job description schematic, how
20 many workers of the crime prevention department at the CSB of
21 Sarajevo Birac Romanija should there have been?
22 A. I think that they envisaged about 100 workers, 100 members in
23 these five departments who were well qualified. That many were supposed
24 to work at the CSB.
25 Q. When you say "workers," you are referring to inspectors mainly;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let me repeat. When you say "workers," who do you have in mind?
4 What profile of employees do you have in mind?
5 A. I'm referring to inspectors who would be in charge of crime
6 prevention dealing with regular general crime, with white-collar crime,
7 fire prevention department, and so on.
8 Q. How many inspectors did you have?
9 A. The profile of inspectors changed.
10 Q. Tell us about the period up until the end of the summer of 1992,
11 how many inspectors did you have?
12 A. Four to five, sometimes three depending on the period of time.
13 Q. And later?
14 A. At the end of 1992, when the Ministry of the Interior announced
15 job vacancies, the number increased.
16 Q. Let us go back to the document before us. Sir, this is a report
17 dated the 12th of July, 1992, signed by Milenko Karisik and
18 Ljubinko Mitrovic on page 3. Do you know these two men?
19 A. Yes. Ljubinko Mitrovic was an operative at the centre, and
20 Karisik, Milenko, I think, was an operative in Novo Sarajevo.
21 Q. This report pertains to early July when the chief of the CSB sent
22 these two men to Vogosca. It says here that their task was to review the
23 crime situation in the Serbian municipality of Vogosca. Tell me, please,
24 did you know about this report at the time in 1992?
25 A. Yes, I did. These operatives were sent by the chief of the
1 centre, and I think that it was at the insistence of somebody from
2 political circles, or perhaps from the government of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Tell me, please, before this period of time and before this
4 report, did you know what the situation was regarding crime in the
5 Serbian municipality of Vogosca?
6 A. No, not until this date. Nobody from the CSB went to Vogosca,
7 nor did we receive any official dispatch from that police station.
8 Q. Before this report, did you know that in Vogosca SJB they did not
9 have the crime police at all?
10 A. I did not know about crime police existing there at all.
11 Q. Was an instruction issued to the Vogosca SJB regarding that, and
12 if so, what kind of an instruction? Was something of the sort done when
13 they inspected this place?
14 A. Based on this official report of these operatives, one can see
15 that they only spoke to the chief and to the assistant. It can also be
16 seen here that the offices of the crime police were locked. The Vogosca
17 public security station before the war had its own crime police
18 department, and it was clear that none of the pre-war workers worked at
19 the police station on the 9th of July.
20 Q. Following this report, was the crime police department founded in
21 the Vogosca SJB?
22 A. It was agreed to set up the crime police but it wasn't done
23 immediately because the operatives from the centre who had gone down
24 there encountered problems, both with the chief of the station and with
25 some other individuals.
1 Q. Sir, on page 2 of this document, the penultimate paragraph, last
2 sentence of that paragraph reads:
3 "Upon arrival of the Assistant Minister Dobro Planojevic to
4 Vogosca, we spoke to him and told him about our observations regarding
5 the situation, and we agreed that the crime service should be set up and
6 that it should be made up of the following persons: Brane Vlaco, head of
7 the service, current employee of the service and the Sarajevo CSB;
8 Stanko Blagovcanin, and then" -- I apologise, I was rushing.
9 So the following people would make up that service: Brane Vlaco,
10 as the head of the service, hereto employee of the service and the
11 Sarajevo CSB; the next person, Stanko Blagovcanin, employee of the
12 Vogosca SJB dealing with crime; and then additional two persons. Tell
13 me, please, this name, Vlaco, Brane, do you know this person?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who is it and what do you know about this person?
16 A. Brane Vlaco was an employee of the white-collar crime of the
17 Sarajevo CSB. He may have been in some kind of a management position.
18 He was there when the war broke out because he was originally from
19 Vogosca. He signed up to work in this police station. So he was an
20 inspector in our centre before the war.
21 Q. And you know him personally?
22 A. Yes, I know him personally.
23 Q. Did he have some kind of a specific feature? Did he have
24 mustache, beard?
25 A. At the time, he had mustache, I think. To this day that's true,
1 but I haven't seen him for a number of years.
2 Q. What happened after this, did Brane Vlaco become the chief of the
3 crime prevention service at the Vogosca SJB?
4 A. I don't think he did, and if he did by any chance, then he held
5 that position for a very short period of time because soon thereafter he
6 left the area.
7 Q. Do you know where he went and what he did?
8 A. I think that for awhile he was an inspector at the crime police
9 administration in Bijeljina in the RS MUP, and then after that, he moved
10 to some other positions that were not within the MUP.
11 Q. Do you know what he does today?
12 A. I think he is a banker nowadays. I am not sure. I think that he
13 is in the banking industry.
14 Q. Following this report, Mr. Tusevljak, was there another visit
15 made to the Vogosca SJB?
16 A. Yes, following the problems that the operatives encountered
17 there, I, too, was sent by the chief of the centre to Vogosca.
18 Q. Do you remember when that was, roughly?
19 A. Also in July.
20 Q. Could we look at tab 2, 1D182.
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, you haven't forgotten the --
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, I did, Your Honours. I apologise.
23 Perhaps this is a good place to stop for the day.
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Tusevljak, we are about to take the first
2 adjournment for the day in the course of your testimony, and I remind you
3 that having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any communication
4 with counsel from either side. Moreover, in such conversations as you
5 have with anybody else, you cannot discuss your testimony. So we will
6 continue tomorrow morning. The Court is not going to rise immediately,
7 as we have other matters with which to deal. The usher will escort you
8 from the courtroom, and we'll reconvene in this courtroom tomorrow
9 morning. Thank you. Sorry, tomorrow afternoon.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE HALL: Could we go into private session, please.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 22249 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL: So we rise to resume tomorrow at 2.30. I assume
13 that counsel would have seen the -- today's change to the calendar where
14 on Friday we are sitting in the -- sorry, 2.15 tomorrow. And I assume
15 the counsel has seen the change whereby on Friday we are sitting in the
16 morning, not in the afternoon. Thank you.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of June,
19 2011, at 2.15 p.m.