Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22396

 1                           Monday, 20 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8     Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

12     Indah Susanti for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

15     Stanisic Defence this afternoon.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

17     Aleksandar Aleksic for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours may have seen - I hope that you were

21     told from the e-mail I sent on Friday - in response to the Defence

22     notification that they propose to add at that stage a further, I think it

23     was 65, new documents, since yesterday 70 new documents to the list.

24     Your Honours, between -- on their list, between tabs 210 and now 289 are,

25     as I say, a further 79 documents that it is said that Mr. Zecevic

Page 22397

 1     proposes to use with this witness.

 2             Your Honour, can I saying straightaway, we have added about

 3     49 documents this morning but the difference is that we have to add

 4     documents because the 65 ter summaries really do not tell you, nor indeed

 5     on this occasion did the interview we conducted with this witness, the

 6     sort of assertions he's going to be making.  And so it's only as you

 7     listen to the evidence that you realise the documents that are going to

 8     become relevant.  Whereas the Defence are presumed, as we were, when

 9     calling their witnesses in chief to have decided in advance through the

10     lengthy proofing sessions they apparently conduct with their witnesses

11     what documents they want to use.

12             But, however, Your Honour, the documents, it's themselves that I

13     want to raise.  All of the documents relate to criminal cases in some

14     form or another, either criminal complaints or forensic examination or

15     the like.  All of them relate to areas which are outside that of the

16     CSB Sarajevo.  And, therefore, this witness cannot possibly have any

17     personal knowledge of these matters at all.

18             The majority come from Banja Luka.  There are 63 of the documents

19     listed from the Banja Luka area, including municipalities, however, which

20     are not covered by this indictment, but Your Honours have expressed the

21     view before that leeway must be given.  But they come from Laktasi, for

22     example, Bosanska Gradiska on the Croatia border, Mrkonjic Grad, Glamoc

23     and Celinac, Bosanska Dubica, and the like.  Ten of the documents are

24     related to Bijeljina.  Your Honours have heard quite a lot of evidence

25     about that they all relate to the murder of Krkic [phoen].  And seven

Page 22398

 1     relate to Doboj, all of which were dealt with by Mr. Bjelosevic when he

 2     gave evidence.

 3             Now, Your Honours, the Defence have decided, for whatever reason,

 4     not to call very many witnesses; that, of course, is their decision.  But

 5     they can't, we would submit to you, try to deal with the consequences of

 6     that decision by making a witness, who patently cannot give evidence of

 7     his own knowledge, as it were, a vessel for producing documents that they

 8     have not otherwise been able to produce.  A number of them, in fact, are

 9     MFI'd because Mr. Zecevic sought to put them in through Mr. Tutus, who

10     one would have thought was clearly a witness who was at least closer to

11     most of these criminal report and analyses.  It turned out he couldn't

12     say anything, Your Honours, and we objected on the basis that the -- that

13     he was not the suitable witness for these documents to come in to.  And

14     this was left so that the documents that were shown to him were MFI'd.

15             Your Honours, if Mr. Tutus wasn't suitable, then how can it be

16     said that Mr. Tusevljak is even remotely suitable?  Your Honours, the

17     Defence could have called a witness who could deal with them.  Of course

18     Mr. Zupljanin, obviously, is in a position to deal with them.  Or

19     alternatively if they cannot find a witness then the proper way is to

20     bar table them.  But we would submit it's not proper to try and use this

21     witness to get these documents into evidence.  As I say, it escapes me at

22     the moment entirely how he can give any useful or meaningful evidence

23     about these documents.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Your Honours, I'm sure

Page 22399

 1     Your Honours would recall the exchanges we had on the transcript of

 2     Friday, 20367.  Your Honours, that is for the first time that the Defence

 3     was made aware of the Prosecutor's case.  Namely, the Prosecution changed

 4     their case, and obviously even in -- during the Defence case they are

 5     modifying their case.  First, in the indictment and the OTP pre-trial

 6     brief what was alleged was that our client participated in sham

 7     inquiries.

 8             Now, you will recall that during the Prosecutor's case we

 9     presented a number of documents which were criminal complaints filed.

10     Then the Office of the Prosecutor changed their case again, stating that

11     there was a discrimination in the way how the police worked and that in

12     cases where the victims were Muslims or non-Serbs there was a completely

13     different situation than in case where the victims were Serbs.

14             Now, when we showed the documents, criminal complaints, which

15     were filed in cases where the victims were non-Serbs, now we come to the

16     point where Ms. Korner is suggesting that it is -- their case is not

17     about whether the criminal complaints were filed in cases where non-Serbs

18     were victims, but - and I'm quoting now:  "We say there is no --"

19             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Page number?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Page number is 22368, I believe, of Friday

21     transcript.

22             "But we say that there's no -- absolutely no evidence before the

23     Court that any trials taking place 17 or 18 years later are based on the

24     evidence recovered by the police in 1992.  And that is a real issue."

25             And then further:

Page 22400

 1             "That does not mean to say that any prosecution now is based on

 2     the evidence gathered or not gathered in 1992.  And that's the issue."

 3             Now, confronted with that fact, which was stated for the first

 4     time, it became apparent to us for the first time during this last two

 5     years what is the Prosecutor's case.  We decided to show the documents,

 6     which we have never proofed the witness with, but to show the documents

 7     to him concerning especially this allegation which Ms. Korner explicitly

 8     explained on Friday.

 9             Now, it is my understanding, Your Honours, that the guide-lines

10     which require us to announce the documents is just that we put the

11     parties on notice that we are going to use these documents, that we are

12     going to use some of the documents for the -- during the direct

13     examination of the witness, as well as cross-examination of the witness.

14     Therefore, the moment when this became apparent to us what is the nature

15     of the Prosecutor's case, I mean, the change in the Prosecutor's case, if

16     I can say so, we informed all the parties that we are going to rely on --

17     that we are going to show some of these documents to the witness.

18             That's the first part.  The second part of Ms. Korner's words

19     right now are actually misinterpretation of the situation which is in the

20     case -- in this case.  On page 7840 during the examination of

21     Tusevljak -- the OTP Witness Tutus, I'm sorry.

22             Your Honour Judge Hall:  "Mr. Zecevic, if you are continuing to

23     lead evidence from the witness to answer the second question that we

24     posed, we are satisfied on that aspect.  And now our ruling is that the

25     documents may be marked for identification, not pending a further witness

Page 22401

 1     coming in to prove them, but pending the matter of authenticity being

 2     resolved at some point."

 3             Now, after that, Your Honours, if you will probably recall, the

 4     Defence informed the parties that the documents were received actually

 5     from the RS MUP, these documents which the authenticity is asked for, was

 6     questioned or objected by the Office of the Prosecutor, and we submitted

 7     the document which is now 65 ter 20187, and it's in Prosecutor's binder

 8     number 52.  And that is the document where all these documents which were

 9     MFI'd are contained, and it's a confirmation by the RS MUP that these

10     documents have been disclosed to us, and, therefore, we anticipated that

11     this would have been sufficient to prove the authenticity of these

12     documents.

13             Now, as the matter was not resolved with that, this document

14     which I just cited, the document 52 in the binder of the Office of the

15     Prosecutor, was in fact signed by this witness, who is a co-ordinator of

16     the team.  And, therefore, what I intend to do with these documents is

17     that I show this document to him to -- that he proves that this is his

18     document and then I show him the example of these documents in order that

19     he verifies the authenticity of the documents so we can ask that the

20     documents be de-MFI'd.

21             And that is the only reason, Your Honours.  Thank you very much.

22             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, that wasn't at all -- first of

23     all, can I say, we have not changed our case.  And for Mr. Zecevic to say

24     he only heard this when we he had the discussion on Thursday cannot be

25     right because apart from anything else we made that very self-same point

Page 22402

 1     in a written response to one of his motions for additions to the

 2     65 ter list.

 3             But if all that he wants this witness to do is to have a list of

 4     the reports that are contained in his letter and say "Are those

 5     authentic?" then of course we don't object.  What I do object to is for

 6     him going through all of these cases about which he has no personal

 7     knowledge whatsoever.  He can simply say he received them and passed them

 8     on to the Defence.  No objection to that at all.  Whether Your Honours

 9     de-MFI it at that stage is a matter perhaps to see also when we hear from

10     cross-examination.  As I say, my only objection is to each and every one

11     of these - how many documents did I say they were? - 70, I think, or

12     whatever, being gone through with the witness who knows nothing about

13     them.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So matter seems to have been resolved.

15             MS. KORNER:  Well, yes.  Do I understand that's all that

16     Mr. Zecevic is going to do?  So that we don't have to send the witness in

17     and out of court.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I think I said so.

19             Your Honours, I have a brief matter to inform Your Honours about.

20     Can we go into the private session, please.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22                           [Private session]

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 22403











11     Pages 22403-22406 redacted. Private session.















Page 22407

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Ms. Korner.

 8             MS. KORNER:  I just wanted to put Your Honours on notice that it

 9     may be - and I appreciate that the Court's not very receptive to

10     applications for leave to appeal - but it is of such -- we do consider

11     this of such importance, given, as I say, I have to go and check which

12     trial judgement it was, that we may well want to ask for leave to appeal

13     if Your Honours are going to rule that all of them may be 92 bis, just so

14     that Your Honours are on notice.  This is not in terrorem but just that

15     that's the situation.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So, if there are no other housekeeping matters,

17     would the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, if the other plans about -- with

19     regard to Mr. Macar wouldn't work, would a opening of your case in the

20     next week be a possibility?  In the next weeks, I mean.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand Your Honour.  I'm

22     afraid that's not possible.  I was away from the courtroom several days

23     precisely because I was trying to deal with these newly arisen problems.

24     So at first I had this expert witness who was supposed to start the week

25     of the 17th, starting the 17th.  And that would have wrapped up our

Page 22408

 1     trial, at least as far as the part before the summer recess is concerned.

 2     I moved him forward by about seven days.  He should have been in Belgrade

 3     on the 4th of July and then he would have been in The Hague on the 7th or

 4     the 8th.  On the 11th we would have started his evidence and perhaps been

 5     able to complete that same day.  So that was the idea.

 6             But I did have a contingency plan as well, to bring another

 7     witness, that's SZ-006.  However, he underwent heart surgery in the

 8     meantime and I had to give him up.  I probably won't be able to call that

 9     witness.  Needless to say, we'll do everything within our power to make

10     sure we have other witnesses lined up, but it's just not realistic to

11     expect that we would be able to bring any witness at all over the next

12     two weeks to start their evidence in this court.

13             The most -- probably the expert witness Kolacevic [phoen] would

14     be ready on the 11th.  That's as much as I can say.  Regardless of

15     whether Mr. Macar is ready to testify that week, Witness Kolacevic has

16     been moved forward -- moved backward by a full week, and he will be able

17     to start on the 11th.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that witness would be able to start on the

19     11th and after he finishes you could have other witnesses?  It's just to

20     know whether we have a plan B in case Mr. Macar is not able to come on

21     the 11th of July.  And I suppose we have to make that decision some time

22     before the 11th.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I said is as much

24     as I can promise at this point in time, as much as I'm certain about.

25     I'll do my best to bring other witnesses too, among those mentioned.

Page 22409

 1     Most of these witnesses don't have passports.  That's one of the

 2     problems.  Some of them are gainfully employed and find it difficult to

 3     get leave from their employers.  One of these witnesses happens to be in

 4     Australia throughout this period, therefore the timing is quite

 5     inconvenient.  We have a total of three witnesses who were scheduled to

 6     testify after the summer recess, yet are unable to make it.

 7     Nevertheless, we'll certainly do everything within our power.  But I

 8     can't promise anything more to the Chamber at this point.  I can't make

 9     any further commitments, and I can't promise any other witnesses before

10     the summer recess with the exception of the expert witness.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.  Another, but related,

12     question:  Will you make an opening statement?

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.  A short one,

14     though.  In my announcement I said that it would not exceed a single

15     session, and we'll start with the evidence straightaway after that.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Tusevljak, good afternoon to you.  Before

19     Mr. Zecevic resumes his examination-in-chief, I remind you you're still

20     on your oath.

21             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           WITNESS: SIMO TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Examination by Mr. Zecevic:  [Continued]

Page 22410

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tusevljak.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   On Friday the 17th of June, at page 22388, I was showing you a

 4     document from Vlasenica invoking CSB Sarajevo document 0147892.  The

 5     document is under seal and I won't be showing it to you now for that

 6     reason.  Nevertheless, you said at that time that it might be useful to

 7     see what the document 01478/92 from Sarajevo CSB was about.  That would

 8     have allowed you, as you claimed, to comment on the document that we were

 9     looking at at the time.  Do you remember that, sir?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a look at 1D584.

12     This is tab 24.

13        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

16        Q.   Sir, is this the document that you said you would need to look at

17     in order to see what was being requested?

18        A.   I think so.  There are references here to our own documents,

19     123/92, the 25th of July, 1992.  And you can also see that the public

20     security stations were familiar through this document with the order of

21     the minister of the interior, saying that all policemen should be removed

22     from police stations who have criminal records of any kind or have been

23     known to commit crimes during their work with the Ministry of Interior.

24        Q.   This document in front of you, does it have anything to do with

25     the rules on disciplinary measures, war time disciplinary measures, and

Page 22411

 1     the violations of the terms of service, those more serious as well as

 2     those less serious, as described in the rules?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move on to 194.

 5     949D1.  Tab 194.  The document is 65 ter 949D1.

 6        Q.   Sir, was the public security station part of the

 7     Sarajevo Romanija-Birac district during 1992?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This is one of their documents, the 24th of September, 1992.  The

10     subject reads "response to your document 478/92," signed by

11     Vujadin Klisaric.  Are you familiar with this person, Mr. Klisaric?

12        A.   Yes.  At the time, he was the chief of the Sekovici Public

13     Security Station.

14        Q.   They report here that disciplinary proceedings were underway

15     against one employee.  It reads:

16             "The proposal has already been submitted to the CSB for their

17     information and for them to take steps."

18             Do you perhaps remember what this was about?

19        A.   I can't remember at the moment what specific employee this was

20     about, but you can tell that steps have been taken against one of their

21     own and the whole case file was forwarded to the Security Services

22     Centre.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

25     like to tender this.

Page 22412

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I've said over and over again

 2     that we don't say and we never have said that disciplinary proceedings

 3     were not carried out.  The question is whether they were carried out for

 4     crimes committed against non-Serbs.  And we don't even know what this

 5     one's for.  But other than that, Your Honours, if Your Honours want to

 6     admit it, we don't object.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  How does this advance the case, Mr. Zecevic, the

 9     admission of this document?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I explained already once and

11     the document I referred to at that time was admitted.  It is important

12     for the Defence because it reflects the knowledge of the minister, the

13     ministry --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, but if I might interrupt, as Ms. Korner says,

15     on the face of it, we don't know what this document is about.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's about the disciplinary proceedings conducted

17     against one of the members of the MUP.  It says in the document.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  For what?

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the point is not for what, with all

20     due respect.  The point is that the disciplinary system exists at the

21     time, and that is the knowledge of the accused.

22             Your Honours -- Your Honours, please, the law lists what are the

23     major -- or the important or less important breaks of the duties of the

24     police officers.  The law of the Ministry of Interior, the Law on

25     Public Administration.  We established that the -- that there was an

Page 22413

 1     instruction on the disciplinary proceedings --

 2             Perhaps the witness can take the headphones off.

 3             We established that there was an instruction signed by minister

 4     on the disciplinary proceedings during the state of war.  Now, if the

 5     minister in 1992 is aware that the disciplinary system functions, that

 6     the disciplinary -- that the disciplinary measures were taken against the

 7     members of the MUP, I think that goes to the knowledge and therefore is

 8     very relevant for our case.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  So the document may be -- is admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D592, Your Honours.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

13             Thank you very much, Mr. Tusevljak.

14             Can we now please have 65 ter 142D1.  This is tab 59.  Rather,

15     can we please first have 943D1 from tab 917.  My apologies.  934.  934D1,

16     tab 197.

17        Q.   Sir, this is a dispatch from the public security station in

18     Zvornik, sent to the Ministry of the Interior, police administration,

19     Security Services Centre in Bijeljina, as well as that in Sarajevo, the

20     Romanija-Birac CSB, signed by Chief Milorad Lokancevic.  This document

21     reports on a disciplinary procedure that is being initiated against a

22     person called Brano Djurdje, son of Milan, the police employee.  In the

23     last paragraph, the chief suggests that this person be suspended from

24     work because of a serious violation.

25             Sir, are you familiar with Mr. Milorad Lokancevic?

Page 22414

 1        A.   Yes.  He was the chief of the Zvornik Public Security Station at

 2     this time.

 3        Q.   Sir, when you look at the type of violation committed by this

 4     member of the public security station, is this what you might classify as

 5     a serious violation of his obligations?

 6             MS. KORNER:  The proper question is:  "How would you classify

 7     this?"

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  Madam Korner is

 9     right.

10        Q.   How would you classify this work-related violation based on the

11     description in the document?

12        A.   It is quite obvious that the document states that the police

13     employee committed a violation.  He caused an instance of public danger

14     and he was found to be in possession of a substantial amount of weapons.

15     Therefore, this constitutes a serious violation of work discipline.

16        Q.   What about the actions taken by this member of the MUP, do they

17     have any features that would constitute a crime or a criminal offence,

18     and if so, which?

19        A.   You're looking at the criminal offence of causing public danger

20     and possession of illegal weapons and ammunition.  I can't specifically

21     remember the articles in the Criminal Code of Bosnia and Herzegovina that

22     relate to these criminal offences, but there appears to be a total of two

23     criminal offences involved here.

24        Q.   This is a member of -- or, rather, what about members of the

25     Ministry of the Interior who committed violations such as this one or

Page 22415

 1     even more serious ones, were they suspended, and if so, at what point in

 2     time?

 3        A.   Yes, they were suspended.  The measure would be taken as soon as

 4     the circumstances were explained under which a criminal offence had been

 5     committed.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the same reason

 8     as that which was raised in relation to the previous document, I would

 9     like to tender this one into evidence.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D593, Your Honours.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have

13     65 ter 142D1, tab 59.

14        Q.   Sir, the date on this document is the 22nd of September, 1992,

15     Zvornik Public Security Station, signed by Milorad Lokancevic.  Reference

16     is to a dispatch by the Sarajevo Security Services Centre, which is also

17     the addressee.  There is a reference to this dispatch that unfortunately

18     is not in our possession, dispatch number 477.  On the 20th of August, a

19     criminal report was filed because of a criminal offence from Article 43

20     of the Criminal Code of the SRJ, war crimes against the wounded and sick.

21     It also says that a questionnaire was filled out, war crimes victims

22     questionnaire, and attached to this memo.

23             First of all, did you receive from the Ministry of Interior at

24     any point in May 1992 a set of instructions or guide-lines on what to do

25     in case you came across any war crimes?

Page 22416

 1        A.   Yes.  As far as I remember, it was in the latter half of May.  A

 2     letter came that said we should take steps if we came across any of

 3     those.

 4        Q.   Do you perhaps remember who signed that letter, that

 5     communication?

 6        A.   I think it was signed by the then chief of the crime police

 7     administration, Dobro Kanjic [phoen].

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you perhaps remember that at any point throughout

 9     the summer of 1992 -- or, rather, during the summer of 1992 did you

10     receive any other guide-lines that had to do with war crimes?

11        A.   We had this collegium meeting at the Ministry of Interior in

12     Belgrade.  One of the conclusions reached was that appropriate measures

13     had to be taken to document war crimes.  I'm not sure if there was a

14     special dispatch that was sent out to everyone dealing with war crimes,

15     but I know that at some point late that summer forms were distributed to

16     everyone that were to be filled by everyone at public security stations

17     across the range that had to do with war crimes.

18             I think that we from the Security Services Centres at some point

19     in August or possibly in September drew up some framework guide-lines on

20     what to do whenever one came across the commission of a war crime in the

21     line of duty.  We had a very experienced criminal technician who worked

22     with us and he produced a sort of mock scenario as to what a technician

23     like that, a forensic officer, should do when they came across a crime

24     scene.

25             It's related to what I was saying before.  When on the ground,

Page 22417

 1     unfortunately we didn't have sufficiently-trained employees who were

 2     trained in a way that would have allowed them to deal with this type of

 3     crime.  Regrettably they weren't even sufficiently trained to deal with

 4     ordinary crimes.  For the most part, they had no experience with the more

 5     serious crimes.  So the report that reached the Security Services Centre

 6     is precisely in relation to the intensions that arose in the latter half

 7     of 1992.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Just one intervention in the transcript.  On page 21,

 9     line 10:  "Regrettably they weren't even sufficiently trained to deal

10     with ordinary crimes."  I think you said something else.

11             Can you please slowly repeat your answer so that it would be

12     correctly recorded in the transcript.

13        A.   I said in this part of my answer that they were not trained to

14     conduct investigation of the most ordinary criminal offences, such as

15     theft, aggravated theft.  That is to say, the classic crimes.

16        Q.   Tell me, what was the reason for you to draw up these

17     instructions for the forensic technicians during the month of

18     August 1992?

19        A.   Well, we saw that documents which we were receiving from the

20     ground, from police stations, did not meet the most basic needs.  And it

21     is well known that what forensic technicians collect at the sites of

22     crimes is then submitted to the prosecutor's offices so that the

23     prosecutor's office could present the evidence before a court.  Which

24     means that the on-site investigations which were conducted by the

25     forensic technicians were not nearly adequate.  That was the reason to

Page 22418

 1     assist, at least a little, the forensic technicians who had begun working

 2     on the ground.  In the Ministry of the Interior no forensic -- no courses

 3     for forensic technicians had been organised as yet at the time.

 4        Q.   Was the goal to improve the work of the forensic technical

 5     service or was it something else?

 6        A.   Only improving the work of the forensic technicians on the

 7     ground.

 8        Q.   Sir, let us return to the document.  Are you familiar with the

 9     first item, a criminal report?  What does it have to do with?

10        A.   I cannot specifically say judging by the numbers and the date

11     which criminal offence this was, but it is obvious that the

12     Zvornik Public Security Station submitted this against unknown

13     perpetrators with the basic public prosecutor's office in Zvornik.

14        Q.   In paragraph 2, this document talks about a report dated the

15     26th of June, 1992, when genocide was committed against the Serbian

16     population in the territory of the Serbian population in Zvornik.  And

17     the reasons for which criminal reports against unidentified persons or,

18     as they are called here, the Muslim extremists had not been submitted.

19             Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, did the police have a different standard

20     when it came to war crimes committed against non-Serbs as compared to

21     those instances when the victims were Serbs?

22        A.   No.  When the police went out to a crime site and conducted an

23     on-site investigation, when we were called and when we could conduct an

24     on-site investigation, the same criminal report against unidentified

25     person was filed if the perpetrators were unidentified.  And if the

Page 22419

 1     perpetrators of a crime were known, then most often, when such persons

 2     were within our reach, criminal reports were filed for crimes of

 3     aggravated murder.  Article 36, I think, paragraph 3 or 4, but I cannot

 4     say that off the top of my head, but these were -- this was the most

 5     serious crime.  And this paragraph in the Criminal Code of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina envisaged the most severe penalties as well.

 7        Q.   I will show you these documents awhile later.  Now, please tell

 8     me, do you remember whether there were any requests to document war

 9     crimes, particularly, or crimes against civilians committed against

10     Serbs?

11        A.   I think that all requests asked for all war crimes to be

12     documented.

13        Q.   Why was it sometimes insisted that crimes against Serbs

14     documented as well?

15        A.   Because they were always committed in 90 per cent of the cases at

16     least.  Territory which was not under the control of the Republika Srpska

17     MUP.  Therefore we mostly learned of them through Serbs who had managed

18     to survive the crimes.

19             It happened very often that we could not reach these persons

20     because they wouldn't report to any police station, so that very often we

21     only learned about those crimes quite some time after they had occurred.

22        Q.   Once again for the needs of the transcript, page 23, line 21, to

23     my question "was it sometimes insisted that crimes against Serbs be

24     documented as well," your answer has been recorded in the following way:

25             "Because they were always --" the crimes were in at least 90 per

Page 22420

 1     cent of the cases committed, and then full stop.  "The territory which

 2     was under the control of the Republika Srpska MUP.  Therefore we mostly

 3     learned of them through Serbs who had managed to survive the crimes."

 4             This is not what you said.  It is very important, so can you

 5     please explain for us what this is about, which crimes this refers to,

 6     and please be so kind and say it in a slow and articulate manner so that

 7     it would be recorded precisely.

 8        A.   The crimes against Serbs were committed in 90 per cent of the

 9     cases in the territory which was under the control of the army of the

10     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina rather than in the territory which was under the control of

12     the Republika Srpska MUP.  That was the reason why our ability of

13     learning that a crime had been committed was limited to Serbs who had

14     come as refugees from these areas.  Very often these refugees did not

15     report themselves to any police station and did not report these events.

16     For that reason, it was requested that operatives interview such persons

17     and take their statements so that through such statements such crimes

18     would be documented.

19        Q.   Let's provide a context for this or an example so that we could

20     understand it better.  If you learned that a crime had been committed

21     against some Serbs who were in the territory of Sarajevo controlled by

22     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would that constitute such a case?

23        A.   Yes.  It was the only way at the time in which we could receive

24     such information.

25        Q.   And as for the Ministry of the Interior of the Federation of

Page 22421

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was under the control of the Ministry of the

 2     Interior, did it submit criminal reports in case of such crimes or

 3     document them, from what you know, if you know anything?

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] How can he answer that

 5     question?  He's not a member of the MUP of BiH.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I asked if he's aware of it.

 7             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I still ask:  How can he

 8     answer that question?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, perhaps the witness can answer --

10             MS. KORNER:  No.  You explain to me on what basis.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Ms. Korner, the witness's testimony is that

12     ministry of RS is filing criminal complaints against the perpetrators of

13     crimes committed against the Serbs in the territory which was not under

14     their control, and I'm asking him whether he knows if the MUP of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina filed the criminal complaints for these very same

16     crimes.

17             MS. KORNER:  I appreciate and -- I appreciate that is the

18     question.

19             I'm sorry, Your Honours, we should do it through you.

20             I appreciate that's the question.  I'm merely querying the basis

21     on which a member of the MUP of the RS can know whether or not the MUP in

22     BiH, across the front lines which he's described so vividly, so often,

23     can know the answer to that.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, he explained that they were getting this

25     information from the people who managed to escape from the territory

Page 22422

 1     which was under the control of the Bosnian army, so perhaps he has -- he

 2     has knowledge through that.  And it is admissible in this jurisdiction, I

 3     believe.

 4             May I continue?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Sir, did you have information of this kind?

 8        A.   Yes, we absolutely did.  I'm still investigating war crimes, and

 9     I have had opportunity to see all criminal reports filed since 1992 in

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina to this very day.  I'm currently co-operating with

11     prosecutors at the cantonal prosecutor's office in Sarajevo and I have

12     access to all files submitted by the Sarajevo Police between 1992 and

13     1995, and after that.  I also have access to everything that was

14     submitted to the military cantonal prosecutor's office in Sarajevo.  I

15     have not come across a single criminal report from that time which has to

16     do with war crimes except for criminal reports filed against Serbs and

17     Croats.

18             However, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I think this is also the case

19     in other countries, the prosecutor is the person who determines how a

20     certain act is to be qualified regardless of what we from the police may

21     write and how we may classify an offence.  That was the reason why the

22     prosecutor sometimes changed the qualification of many criminal offences,

23     both of those submitted by the police of the Federation and those

24     submitted by the minister [as interpreted] of the interior of

25     Republika Srpska.  That is the absolute right of the prosecutor, to judge

Page 22423

 1     by the characteristics of a certain offence and change the qualification.

 2     What is most important in police work is that the report should contain

 3     as many elements as possible and as much evidence as possible about the

 4     act itself which was committed or evidence about the person who committed

 5     the act.

 6             I think I made myself clear.

 7        Q.   Just another intervention in transcript.  On page 27, line 3, you

 8     said criminal reports submitted by the police of the Federation or those

 9     submitted by the "minister" of the interior of Republika Srpska.  Did you

10     say "minister" or the "ministry"?

11        A.   I said the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.

12        Q.   Sir, if a serious crime is committed in the territory that was

13     outside Republika Srpska, whose duty was it to file a criminal report in

14     accordance with the law, that is to say, who was supposed to prosecute

15     the crime?

16        A.   In accordance with the Criminal Code or the

17     Law on Criminal Procedure which was in force, the report should be

18     submitted by the local police.  However, it was standard that such

19     reports about information that crimes had been committed were filed both

20     by the MUP of Republika Srpska to its own prosecutor's office, and, as

21     far as I know, our colleagues from the Federation, if they learned that

22     some crimes had been committed in the territory of Republika Srpska, they

23     also submitted such reports to their prosecutor's office.  I think that

24     there was a term on both sides at the time, of temporarily occupied

25     territory, or something like that.

Page 22424

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, if you're going on to something else,

 2     perhaps we could take the break now.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in,

 8     and he can be brought in, can I just ask, in respect to Mr. Krgovic's

 9     92 bis witnesses, and Your Honours said that you were minded to grant it,

10     does that mean, in other words, that they wouldn't attend for

11     cross-examination under 92 bis (c)?

12             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] That remains open.

13             MS. KORNER:  That remains open.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That remains open.

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes, thank you very much.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, another clarification.  At page 27/22, you said it

19     was usual for such reports or information on crimes committed to be

20     submitted by the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska, to their

21     own prosecutors, and, as far as I know, to the colleagues from the

22     Federation.  If the colleagues from the Federation learned of any crimes

23     committed in the territory of Republika Srpska, they would submit these

24     reports to their own prosecutor.

25             When you say the "ministry," who exactly do you have in mind?

Page 22425

 1        A.   I mean the organisational units of the Ministry of the Interior,

 2     the Security Services Centres or public security stations.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In cases like that, when you had information

 4     regarding a crime that was committed under the -- under the -- on

 5     territory that was under the control of the opposite side, would you file

 6     criminal reports in cases like that?  And what supporting material would

 7     you normally attach to such a criminal report?

 8        A.   Criminal reports would be filed with the relevant prosecutor.

 9     Normally one would attach such evidence as was available at the time of

10     the filing.  Normally statements, no more than statements, taken from any

11     witnesses or survivors.  Whenever there were medical documents available

12     concerning any injuries that had occurred, those files would be submitted

13     too, along with the rest of it.  If bodies were exchanged and if we were

14     invited by the military security people to give them a hand, because, as

15     you will realise, it was the military prosecutor that was in charge of

16     these matters at the time, and the reports would go to the military

17     prosecutor.  So whenever that was the case, we would give a hand to our

18     colleagues from the military security to examine the bodies forensically.

19     Or if there was a pathologist who was available to conduct a postmortem,

20     we would give the pathologist a hand with that too.

21        Q.   As a rule, would the hypothetical perpetrators of these crimes,

22     or the presumed perpetrators, be within reach of the organs of

23     Republika Srpska?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   When I said hypothetical, I meant alleged perpetrators.  Not

Page 22426

 1     hypothetical perpetrators.

 2             Based on what you know when criminal reports like these were made

 3     in relation to crimes against Serbian people in territory that was not

 4     under the control of the organs of Republika Srpska, would the relevant

 5     prosecutors then take up these cases?

 6        A.   For the most part the prosecutors did not take any steps when

 7     such reports were received.  You can tell that that was the case because

 8     up to this very day not even one per cent of those crimes have been dealt

 9     with successfully, and it has been 19 years since.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

11     like to tender this document, 65 ter 142D1.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D594, Your Honours.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Sir, do you perhaps remember this:  What about crimes encompassed

16     by the Federal Criminal Law of the former SFRY, crimes against humanity

17     international law, such as genocide, war crimes against civilian

18     population, against prisoners of war, and so on and so forth, do you

19     remember what maximum penalty was envisaged for crimes like that?

20        A.   The maximum penalty envisaged for crimes like that was up to

21     15 years' imprisonment or death penalty, which could have been exchanged

22     for a 20-year prison sentence.  Nevertheless, as far as I know, sometime

23     around 1990 or 1991 the federal Assembly abolished the dealt penalty and

24     it was no longer part of the state law, so the only thing that remained

25     was the maximum prison sentence of 15 years.

Page 22427

 1        Q.   When you say abolished and was no longer part of the state law,

 2     which state law do you have in mind, or which legislation?

 3        A.   These crimes were defined by the federal law, the

 4     Federal Criminal Code of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia,

 5     chapter 15, I believe.  These crimes, as such, did not exist in the

 6     republican criminal codes, and those were the ones that we had been using

 7     for our work in Bosnia and Herzegovina up until 1992.  In about

 8     90 per cent of the cases that we dealt with - when I say "we," I mean

 9     those of us dealing with the more general crimes - we used the

10     Criminal Code of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to guide us

11     in our work.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the Chamber's reference,

13     Criminal Code of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia is part

14     of the case file in this case, L11, chapter 16, Articles 141 through 149.

15        Q.   Sir, what about the crime of murder, was that a matter for the

16     federal law or was that a matter for the republican legislations?

17        A.   The republican ones.

18        Q.   Sir, what about the crime of qualified murder which at the

19     time -- or, rather, let me ask you this first:  What about the provisions

20     of the criminal legislation of the Socialist Republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, did those apply throughout the territory of

22     Republika Srpska in 1992 as well?

23        A.   Yes.  It was a law that was simply copied and remained the same

24     as the one back in 1992.

25        Q.   Again it wasn't recorded.  You said that "it was copied and

Page 22428

 1     remained the same as the one ... in 1992."  Did you say that or did you

 2     say something else, sir?

 3        A.   Up until 1992, that's what I said.  The same laws.

 4        Q.   Sir, what about the laws that applied in Republika Srpska, what

 5     punishment was envisaged for the crime of qualified murder under that

 6     law?

 7        A.   The maximum prison term, 15 years, or a sentence of up to

 8     20 years or the dealt penalty.

 9        Q.   [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I didn't understand whether this was

11     the situation from 1992 and onwards.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Sir, let us try and clarify this.  Did the Republika Srpska adopt

14     its own criminal code, and if so, when?

15        A.   Republika Srpska adopted its own criminal code.  I can't remember

16     at which Assembly meeting.  Nevertheless, the criminal code that was

17     adopted by Republika Srpska was no more than a copy of the same law from

18     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There were no changes.

19     Not a single article was changed, not a single chapter was changed.

20     Therefore, a crime of murder, Article 36, was handled the same way in the

21     criminal code that applied in Bosnia-Herzegovina up to 1992 as well as in

22     the Criminal Code of Republika Srpska.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Does this clarify the matter, Your Honour?

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes and no, because I thought that the witness

25     told us that the dealt penalty was abolished --

Page 22429

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is precisely my next question.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And so if the dealt penalty was abolished before

 3     the creation of the Republika Srpska, then how come that in the

 4     RS Penal Code certainly the death penalty reappeared?  That was the thing

 5     that I did not understand.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you answer that question, sir?

 8        A.   We're talking about two laws here.  The Law of the Socialist

 9     Federative Republic of Yugoslavia Criminal Code defining war crimes as a

10     crime.  The federal Assembly abolished the death penalty for that crime.

11     The Criminal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in which the crime of murder was

12     included, no decision was taken to abolished death penalty.  Therefore,

13     the republican criminal code still had the crime of murder which still

14     drew a dealt penalty, potentially, both prior to 1992 and at the

15     beginning of 1992.  I think sometime during the war the Assembly of

16     Republika Srpska introduced an amendment to that.  But one should go back

17     to the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska, go through the old copies,

18     to see whether a moratorium was in fact imposed on the execution of the

19     death penalty.  So we are looking here at two different laws.

20        Q.   Sir, when you say "during the war," which period do you have in

21     mind specifically, during 1992 or after 1992?

22        A.   From where I stand now, it's difficult for me to say.  I really

23     can't say.  I just know that the decision was taken.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm reluctant to interrupt because it

25     normally wastes more time, but surely all of this can be the subject of

Page 22430

 1     an admission if necessary, or we've got all the laws in the law library.

 2     I'm not --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  It's on.

 5             I'm not at all clear why this witness, who is not a lawyer in any

 6     event, is being taken through it.  It does seem to be an awful waste of

 7     time.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  It will be clear, Your Honours, once I come to the

 9     point.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, bearing this in mind, was the more severe

11     punishment envisaged for the crime of qualified murder than that imposed

12     in the case of war crimes?

13        A.   Before the amendment that was made, yes.

14        Q.   And when the amendment was made, what was the relation between

15     the war crimes on the one hand and the qualified murder on the other, in

16     terms of the punishment?

17        A.   The same punishment was envisaged for both crimes, and the range

18     was the same, 10, 15, or even 20 years.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just a note for the transcript, Your Honours, I see

20     it was -- it's been translated "qualified murder" as it stands, qualified

21     murder.  It's aggravated murder, actually.  When I say, in Serbian,

22     [B/C/S spoken], means aggravated murder.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We figured as much.  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I -- you know, again it's

25     probably the interpreters, but I think we need the interpreters to

Page 22431

 1     confirm that's it, not what Mr. Zecevic says he says it means.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are happy to confirm that

 3     Mr. Zecevic is correct.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... can we call the

 5     transcript -- the interpreters to confirm?

 6             Thank you very much.  Much appreciated.

 7             Your Honours, for the reference of the Trial Chamber, the

 8     document is in our law library, however -- the Criminal Code, I mean, is

 9     in the law library, republican Criminal Code, and, however, it has the P

10     number, P119, and what we were discussing was the Article 36.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, in your capacity as head of the service for

12     combatting crime in the Sarajevo Birac-Romanija centre, in situations

13     where you were dealing with the crime of murder where the perpetrators

14     and victims belong to different ethnic groups, back in 1992 how would the

15     police qualify these crimes?

16        A.   The crime of murder, well, Article 36, paragraph 4, I believe.

17        Q.   Did this apply to situations in which the perpetrator of the

18     crime was an ethnic Serb and the victims belonged to other ethnic groups?

19        A.   No.  As for the crimes committed in our territory, regardless of

20     the ethnicity of the perpetrator or the victim, depending on the actual

21     crime, more often than not this was aggravated murder, we would file for

22     murder, Article 36.

23        Q.   Your answer to my first question was "no," but from the contents

24     of your answer it seems to me that something else would follow.  So can I

25     rephrase the question because maybe I did not make myself clear.

Page 22432

 1             If a murder was committed in which a Serb was the perpetrator, or

 2     the supposed perpetrator, and the victims were of other ethnicity, how

 3     was such a criminal offence qualified during the year 1992?

 4        A.   As the crime of murder.

 5        Q.   If the opposite was the case, namely, if the perpetrator of the

 6     crime was of a different ethnicity and the victim was a Serb, how was

 7     that qualified during the year 1992 as far as you know as the then chief

 8     of the Sarajevo CSB?

 9        A.   If it was in our territory, it was also treated as the crime of

10     murder.

11             MS. KORNER:  That was translated as he was the chief of the CSB,

12     which he wasn't as far as I'm aware.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I shortened it, so it's my mistake.

14     What I had in mind was chief of the crime prevention administration at

15     the Sarajevo CSB.  Yes.

16        Q.   Now, please tell me this, a practical question:  When you filed

17     these criminal reports against believed perpetrators who were of other

18     ethnicity, did the prosecutor's offices, as far as you know, treat such

19     criminal reports differently than instances in which the perpetrators

20     were Serbs, perpetrators of the same crimes?

21        A.   No, as far as I know, the prosecutor's offices treated equally

22     all reports submitted by us.

23        Q.   Sir, once you file a criminal report, as there is suspicion that

24     a criminal offence has been committed, for example, the crime under

25     Article 36, paragraph 4, aggravated murder, is the prosecutor's office

Page 22433

 1     bound by your criminal report in the sense of the qualification of a

 2     crime?

 3        A.   No.  The prosecutor has complete freedom, and the prosecutor is

 4     the one who determines the qualification of the crime.  That is to say,

 5     he can change it, say that it is not that particular crime but, rather, a

 6     different one.  And our further obligation, in case the prosecutor judges

 7     that the police or the minister [as interpreted] of the interior can

 8     submit new evidence or conduct certain checks, then he would address us

 9     with a request to collect previous information.  And in accordance with

10     such a request, we would then do what we had to.

11        Q.   Once again it says here that our obligation, in case the

12     prosecutor -- if you received such a request from the prosecutor or a

13     court, that the police or the minister of the interior can submit new

14     evidence or conduct certain checks.

15             Once again, did you say the "minister" or did you say the

16     "ministry"?

17        A.   I did not say the minister, but I said that when we talk about

18     the ministry we talk about members of the crime police or police.  The

19     prosecutor addresses the local police station directly.  He does not even

20     address the Security Services Centre.  That was very often the case.  The

21     basic prosecutor's offices, the district prosecutor's offices, or the

22     military prosecutor's offices had their territorial or actual

23     jurisdiction.  On the basis of this jurisdiction, whether it's

24     territorial or actual, they would address their orders directly to police

25     stations on the ground.  And they did not have any obligation to inform

Page 22434

 1     the Ministry of the Interior about that.

 2             We have to make a distinction here between three levels in the

 3     MUP of Republika Srpska.  In the first level is the ministry and its

 4     services at the ministry's seat.  The second level are the Security

 5     Services Centres and their services at the centre's seat.  And the third

 6     level are the public security stations and their services.

 7             The prosecutor's offices are almost always in co-ordination only

 8     with the lowest-level police stations.  And if the services of the

 9     Security Services Centre submitted criminal reports, then they would

10     communicate with us.

11        Q.   Sir, just to clarify a terminological problem, when you say

12     "territorial" or "local," are these two synonyms in the Serbian language?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I know that on 37 and somewhere before it was

15     translated as "territorial or actual," where it means practically the

16     same thing in the Serbian language.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I will show you a document, 378D1.  It is

18     tab 128.  Sir, this is a document from the basic public prosecutor's

19     office in Zvornik.  The date is the 26th of May, 1993, submitted to the

20     lower court and the investigating judge in Zvornik.  And it says:

21             "Please find enclosed a criminal report of the Bratunac Public

22     Security Station of" a certain number "dated the 25th of May, 1992,

23     against Zoran Tomasevic."

24             And then later on the request says that there are reasonable

25     grounds to suspect that at around 1430 hours on the 20th of May, 1992,

Page 22435

 1     that person committed a criminal offence against the underaged Meva Husic

 2     by which he committed the crime of attempted rape pursuant to Article 88,

 3     and this is signed by deputy public prosecutor.

 4             Sir, is this a document or, rather, a request to open

 5     investigation?  What kind of a document is that in the procedural sense?

 6        A.   When we submit a criminal report to a prosecutor's office - when

 7     I say "we," I mean the police - according to the Law on

 8     Criminal Procedure which was then in force in Republika Srpska, the

 9     prosecutor when he assesses that there is sufficient evidence, then he

10     submits precisely such a request to the investigating judge.  And it is

11     now up to the investigating judge to use the evidence submitted by the

12     prosecutor as the basis on which he makes a decision.

13             If there is sufficient evidence, the investigating judge makes a

14     decision to conduct an investigation.  And if the evidence is

15     insufficient, he then makes a decision that an investigation would not be

16     conducted and he sends it back to the prosecutor.  So this is the

17     standard legal procedure which was in force in Republika Srpska at the

18     time.

19        Q.   Sir, once the investigating judge establishes that there are not

20     enough elements to open an investigation and sends back a case to the

21     prosecutor, does he give an order to that effect to the prosecutor's

22     office?

23        A.   No.  The prosecutor can collect new evidence if he has it and

24     resubmit them to the investigating judge.  I think that there was the

25     possibility of legal remedy as well, that is to say, the prosecutor could

Page 22436

 1     send a request to a trial chamber so that it would make a decision if the

 2     prosecutor did not agree with the decision to not open an investigation.

 3     And I think that the decision of the trial chamber was final.

 4        Q.   Tell me, can you tell us on the basis of the first and last name

 5     in this request to open an investigation what was the ethnicity of the

 6     damaged party?

 7        A.   It is evident that it is a person of Bosnian ethnicity.

 8        Q.   And the person reported as the perpetrator, what was his

 9     ethnicity?

10        A.   Serbian.

11        Q.   Are you perhaps familiar with this case, as this is the Bratunac

12     Public Security Station which was in your territory, the territory of

13     your Security Services Centre, that is to say?

14        A.   This report which was submitted as early as in 1992 was certainly

15     something we were informed about regularly at the end of the year.  This

16     case should have been included in the report of the

17     Public Security Station Bratunac when it informed us about the number of

18     criminal reports submitted, who they were submitted to, and against whom.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

21     tender this document into evidence.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D595, Your Honours.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness

25     906D1.  Tab 203.

Page 22437

 1        Q.   Sir, let me ask you this while you are still looking for that

 2     document:  Do you know whether in Bosnia-Herzegovina or Republika Srpska

 3     today there are any prosecutions based on criminal offences committed in

 4     1992?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'll stipulate to that.  There are

 7     indeed many cases going on at the state court in particular which relate

 8     to 1992.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   As Ms. Korner made things easier for us, for which I'm grateful

11     to her, tell me whether you know whether the documents which the

12     organisational units of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska

13     drew up during 1992 with reference to particular crimes are being used in

14     the criminal proceedings which are currently ongoing before these courts?

15        A.   Yes, they are being used.

16        Q.   How do you know this?

17        A.   It is the job I'm doing at the moment.  I work with the

18     prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina and with other prosecutors'

19     offices in Bosnia and Herzegovina on specific cases.  I know which

20     documents are available to us in these cases.

21        Q.   Can you tell us, the documents from 1992 which exist, what is the

22     weight that they have?

23        A.   In all cases where there are reports on on-site investigations

24     that were conducted then, photo files, expert reports, certificates on

25     entry into apartments, receipts for items seized, various expert analyses

Page 22438

 1     which were carried out at the forensic centre in Banja Luka, which was

 2     founded in 1992, are irrefutable evidence and they are accepted by the

 3     trial chamber.  In cases when statements weren't taken and were not

 4     taken, in accordance with the current Law on Criminal Procedure of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the prosecutor's office is obliged or perhaps it may

 6     invest such an authority to the organs of the Ministry of the Interior to

 7     take a statement from the same person again but in accordance with the

 8     new legal regulations.

 9             Only if the person deceased in the meantime, then the prosecutor

10     or the defence may offer such a statement as a piece of evidence during

11     the trial.  But then most often the authorised official who took such a

12     statement is also called so that such a document could serve as evidence

13     before a court.

14        Q.   Thank you.  The document in front of you is a judgement from the

15     district court in Banja Luka from 2007 against Goran Petic, Zoran Djukic,

16     Mladen Djukic, and Goran Djukic.  As we can see on pages 3 and 4, it is

17     for the criminal offence of war crime against civilians.  On page 4 of

18     the Serbian version, we can see the sentence.

19             Are you familiar with this case?

20        A.   Yes.  This case was something that the department for war crimes

21     of the Banja Luka Security Services Centre dealt with.  It was the crime

22     police sector, together with the prosecutor in charge.  Inter alia, I

23     co-ordinate the work of this department.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  No, I think, Your Honours, I'm now coming to

25     an objection.  The only connection that I understand that this witness

Page 22439

 1     has with this document for Banja Luka is his job as what he calls

 2     co-ordinating war crimes.  He doesn't know anything other than what he

 3     sees himself, which we can all read.  As I said, if the whole point is

 4     simply to get the document into evidence and this is a document that he

 5     supplied the Defence with, that's one matter.  But the actual contents of

 6     all of this, Your Honour, I object to.  I do say he's not a witness who

 7     can speak to this simply by reading what we can all read.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Sir, do you know whether in this case documents obtained in 1992

10     have been used?

11        A.   Yes, these documents are from 1992.  Can I just explain.  The

12     prosecutor's office is in Republika Srpska.  With the passing of a new

13     law, whenever there were cases of crimes when we accused someone for the

14     crime of murder, this was pre-qualified into the crime of war crime on

15     the basis of orders which we receive, and this is just one judgement.

16     Since 2006 to this day only in Banja Luka, the court sentenced various

17     Serbs to 247 years in prison for having committed war crimes.

18             In all these sentences, the court referred to evidence which the

19     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska submitted in 1992

20     inter alia.  This is my current job, therefore, I could talk about all

21     other prosecutor's offices in Republika Srpska.  I could say how many

22     investigations have been opened precisely about such crimes and on the

23     basis of reports filed by the Republika Srpska MUP.

24        Q.   Just to clarify another terminological imprecision, on page 43 in

25     line 9, you said that they were changed or pre-qualified from a crime of

Page 22440

 1     murder into the crime of war crime.  Can you tell us:  This term which

 2     was used here is pre-qualified, literally, but what does that mean when

 3     something is pre-qualified by a prosecutor?  Can you just explain that

 4     for us?

 5        A.   When a prosecutor receives a report from the Ministry of the

 6     Interior or any of its organisation units, has the discretion to look at

 7     the features of the crime and reclassify that crime, as it were, if that

 8     is what he sees fit to do.  We are not necessarily dealing with a murder

 9     or a war crime.  Someone, for example, is suspected of having committed

10     grievous bodily harm and the prosecutor defines it or has it reclassified

11     as less serious bodily harm or slight bodily harm, aggravated theft -- or

12     theft reclassified as aggravated theft, and so on and so forth.  There

13     are numerous examples where you see a prosecutor receive a police report

14     and subsequently reclassifying or redefining the crimes contained

15     therein.  This is a matter of daily practice.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we've heard this evidence about five

17     times from five different witnesses and we accept it, that the prosecutor

18     has the right to reclassify an offence, whatever the police put in it.

19     Your Honours, we've gone on without my objection being ruled on.  My

20     objection remains the same because unless this witness is going to tell

21     us that he's read through every word of the file, attended the trial, and

22     knows exactly what was led, then simply all he can say is this was based

23     on a criminal report filed in, whenever it was, 1992.  But he cannot say

24     anything more than that.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the only reason I returned the

Page 22441

 1     witness was that it was recorded as "pre-qualified" and I wanted to

 2     clarify that, that is, for the benefit of the transcript.  Because in my

 3     understanding pre-qualified doesn't mean much in a legal sense in

 4     English.

 5             Now, the second thing, Your Honours --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Can we have the witness take his earphones off,

 7     please.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the standard which Ms. Korner now is

 9     imposing is a quite different one from throughout the Office of the

10     Prosecutor's case, when they presented their evidence.  However, the only

11     point that interests me in this -- in respect to all these judgements

12     that I have listed, from 203, 284, tab 286, -87, -88, and -89, is

13     precisely to show that the documentation gathered in 1992 is used in fact

14     to bring the perpetrators in justice in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, or even

15     today.  And that was the gist of Ms. Korner's comment on Friday.

16             MS. KORNER:  No, I'm sorry, you misunderstood.  Let me make this

17     absolutely clear.  As I said at the time, no doubt at all that where

18     trials have followed 18 years later, they may have been based on the

19     original criminal reports filed.  What we're saying is there's nothing to

20     suggest in any of these documents that when the trials are finally held,

21     as here in 2007 or thereabouts, that it is the evidence gathered in

22     1992 - which is obviously part of it, I agree, if there were forensic

23     examination - which results in the conviction.  That's what our

24     contention is.  Not that it wasn't used in the sense that Mr. Zecevic is

25     now saying.

Page 22442

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  So perhaps then I need to go through the judgement

 2     to show that that is not the case.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You wouldn't know the entire file, would you?

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, but, Your Honours, it's -- our judgements are

 5     listed because the requirement by the law is that the court explains or

 6     lists the evidence on which it based it judgement or all evidence

 7     presented during the case they were sitting on or deciding upon.  And if

 8     we look at these -- all these documents, all these judgements, it is very

 9     clear that in all of them there is a lot of evidence gathered in 1992,

10     which is precisely the point which Ms. Korner is making, which is

11     incorrect.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Hold on a minute.  Let me just put the question,

13     then:  Is it your contention, Mr. Zecevic, that the judgements in 2002,

14     2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 and so on were based exclusively on the

15     evidence collected in 1992?  Or might there have been other evidence

16     coming in, in the meantime?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, of course there is -- there was new

18     evidence.  Even in this trial there has been 50-odd number of new

19     witnesses after the Office of the Prosecutor filed their indictment.  Of

20     course there is new evidence.  But the point is, Your Honours:  If there

21     is a single document, a single statement, taken in 1992, that is

22     sufficient for our purposes because that shows that the Ministry of the

23     Interior was -- actually conducted as much as they can under these

24     circumstances in 1992 their investigations.  Filed a criminal report with

25     the attachments, whatever the attachments are.  They might not be as good

Page 22443

 1     as it is required, but the point of the matter is that they exist, and

 2     based on them, not exclusively on them, but based on them, in some cases

 3     exclusively, the judgements are taken 18 years after.  That is a point.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I mean, Your Honours, this is impossible of

 5     resolution, quite honestly.  We go down such a side track as to with

 6     us -- them calling evidence of these files or us calling -- recalling the

 7     evidence that was called in these trials that led to these judgements.

 8     Your Honours, if it assists, we're not saying that no criminal reports

 9     were filed.  We are not saying that no statements were taken.  We say

10     what Mr. Zecevic has just said is a matter for argument at the end of the

11     day and not susceptible to what he's trying to do with this witness.

12             It is -- if Your Honours looked at this thing, it would be almost

13     impossible to tell when the particular statements that they obviously

14     relied on were taken.  But, Your Honours, this is such a side track from

15     the main issues of the trial that we say it is open to Mr. Zecevic to

16     enter into evidence through a bar table motion such of these criminal

17     cases as he wishes to and for us then to respond.  It is not the way to

18     take it through this witness.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, I find myself entirely in agreement

20     with Ms. Korner about this being a collateral issue which doesn't assist

21     us at all, or if so, only marginally.  So why are we spending so much

22     time on this?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, because that's the Prosecutor's

24     case, and I'm trying to rebut the Prosecutor's case.  And I have the

25     document here, I have the judgements where they list the documents from

Page 22444

 1     1992.  And the Prosecutor says these documents are not there, and I'm

 2     saying, yes, they are.  And I'm showing the documents, the judgements,

 3     where I claim all these documentation, and the forensic reports and the

 4     other expert reports are contained.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Made in 1992.

 7             MS. KORNER:  No, that's fine.  Mr. Zecevic is perfectly entitled

 8     to submit these through a bar table motion.  What he's not entitled to do

 9     is to take this witness through it.  It -- he is not a witness who can do

10     anything more than read what anybody else can read.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, but I don't see how is that different from

12     all the Prosecutor expert witnesses, because they read through all the

13     documents and actually testified about what they read about in the

14     documents.  With all due respect, this witness is involved in the -- in

15     the war crimes as a co-ordinator of Republika Srpska concerning the war

16     crimes, investigation of war crimes, and is very well aware of each and

17     every of these cases and judgements.  And he can provide the firsthand

18     evidence about the contents of these files.

19             MS. KORNER:  He can say "I've read the files."  That's the

20     absolute limit of what he can say.  And my understanding was, as

21     Mr. Zecevic said earlier, he never showed the extra documents, the 70-odd

22     to the witness in proofing.  However, Your Honours, this -- I mean, I

23     know we're now wasting time almost more than that.  We suggest that

24     Mr. Zecevic puts these in through a bar table motion if that's what he

25     wants to do.  We do object to this witness who can do no more, whatever

Page 22445

 1     than his position, than say I read through these files, if that's what he

 2     wants to assert, that he's read through every single file ever submitted.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What's wrong with that, Mr. Zecevic?

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, what is wrong, Your Honours, is that you

 5     might decide against me, and that is not the standard which was adopted

 6     in the -- during the Office of the Prosecutor's case.  And I think that's

 7     unfair to the Defence, because the Office of the Prosecutor was allowed

 8     to bring all the documents where the witnesses were not even remotely

 9     acquainted with and were commenting on reading these documents, and all

10     these documents were admitted.  And the question -- when we objected, the

11     question was never as -- the decision was never to suggest to the Office

12     of the Prosecutor to include these documents in a bar table motion and

13     ask that they be admitted through the bar table motion.  That is the only

14     reason why I'm doing this through this witness.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, the purpose of this, as I would

17     understand it, is to establish that in 1992 documents, statements, and

18     whatever were established and you'll find them in the files in 2006 and

19     2007, 2008, whatever; right?  So, there, I go along with you.  But what

20     happened in those trials in 2006, 2007, and 2008, that's not of any

21     interest for us, is it?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.  What I'm

23     introducing these documents is for the sole purpose that it shows that

24     the Serb perpetrators for war crimes have been found guilty and sentenced

25     based on the documentation partially prepared by the -- in 1992 or

Page 22446

 1     submitted by the MUP in 1992 together with the criminal complaints.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, that's what I don't understand.  What is

 3     the relevance -- the relevance about the fact that they have been

 4     convicted in 2008?  The problem -- if the documents exist, and you have

 5     documents to show, then the question is what happened in 1992, what

 6     should have happened, what did happen, and what did not happen.  But not

 7     what happened with that in 2008.  Not the fact that criminals were

 8     convicted in 2008 upon those documents.  I don't see the relevance of

 9     that.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but, Your Honours -- Your Honour, with all due

11     respect, the job of the police is to file the criminal report and to

12     gather the evidence on the investigation, on-site investigation, and all

13     other expert knowledge and statements, gather all that as soon as

14     possible after the commission of the crime, and they file the criminal

15     report.  And that is where the role of the police ends.  We cannot --

16     Your Honours, we cannot -- also as in this Tribunal, these crimes have

17     been committed in 1992.  They are put on trial in 2009.  That is the very

18     same thing.  Even the criminal complaints have been made in 1992.  That

19     is precisely the same thing.  And now what I'm trying to establish right

20     now is not -- it wasn't a part of our Defence case until Friday when

21     Ms. Korner articulated the position of the Office of the Prosecutor.  I

22     never commented these documents with the witness.  I haven't commented

23     these, but I wasn't under notice that this is a part of the Prosecutor's

24     case because they have been changing it, as I said at the very beginning.

25     And now when it becomes clear, when it becomes clear, I have to take the

Page 22447

 1     measures in order to contradict the claims by the Prosecutor.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, in fact, it's the other way around.  We

 3     haven't changed our case.  The Defence asserted in one of their

 4     applications to add documents to their 65 ter that this point, the point

 5     that Mr. Zecevic is saying that we dispute, namely that the convictions

 6     in 2007 or the trials in 2007 result directly from the evidence gathered

 7     in 1992.  And our response to that in writing over a week ago, if

 8     Mr. Zecevic read our response, was you could not possibly say that.

 9     There is nothing to show in these documents, any of them, on what the

10     convictions are based.  And that is the only issue that I raised last

11     Thursday.

12             And Mr. Zecevic can, as I say, in order -- if he thinks it's

13     relevant -- my only objection at the moment is to this witness being used

14     effectively as a mechanism to get these documents in when he can say

15     nothing that actually goes to their admissibility or not.  And that's the

16     only objection.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But are we right, then, to conclude that the core

18     of the issue here is whether in 1992 criminal reports were made and filed

19     by the MUP?  Because if that is the crux of the matter, then my question

20     would be to Ms. Korner --

21             MS. KORNER:  We don't dispute that.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF: -- if that is disputed.

23             MS. KORNER:  No.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And if it is not disputed, then we come back to:

25     What is the issue, then?

Page 22448

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, the issue, Your Honours, is a very simple

 2     one, because the Office of the Prosecutor will say, as they continue

 3     saying incorrectly, suggesting, that the filing of the criminal reports

 4     without the attachment of the statements and all that is nothing but

 5     sham inquiries or window dressing.  That is their position.  And when I

 6     say -- and when we show the judgements which contain the documents

 7     attached to the criminal reports that were filed in 1992 and based on

 8     which the trial chambers now are getting the convictions of these peoples

 9     or these perpetrators, then I think it's very relevant.  That is our

10     point.

11             JUDGE HALL:  But, Mr. Zecevic, if I might reiterate the point

12     that Ms. Korner has made:  Since we aren't going to be led into

13     ourselves, as it were, trying the cases which have been conducted in the

14     region since 1992 based on that evidence, but only -- we are only

15     concerned with the fact that that material which was gathered in 1992 has

16     been used subsequently, what is your objection to batching this material

17     and putting it forward in a bar table motion?  Because, again, to repeat

18     what Ms. Korner has said:  What is this witness on the stand going to do

19     other than to say that this is what these documents are, or something

20     that a witness doesn't need to say?

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I fully appreciate and understand

22     your position and I might say to a certain extent I do agree.  However,

23     during the Prosecutor's case, Your Honour, let me remind you, we had --

24     we had members of the police, we had prosecutors, we had the judges who

25     were commenting on the documents which were being presented to them for

Page 22449

 1     the first time when they received them from the Office of the Prosecutor,

 2     namely in 2009 or so, and they commented on that, and all their testimony

 3     and all these documents were admitted by the Trial Chamber.

 4             That is precisely the same situation as here.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, Mr. Zecevic, if your analysis of what the

 6     Chamber did then is accurate, why would you be inviting us to repeat

 7     what, in your view, is an error?  Shouldn't we correct it at this stage?

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, I'm not saying Your Honour committed an error.

 9     Not at all, with all due respect.  What I'm saying is that this is a

10     different standard which is applied during the Defence case.  That is my

11     only problem which I'm having.  That there is a different standard now

12     when we are presenting our Defence case to the standard that we had

13     adopted during the Prosecutor's case.

14             MS. KORNER:  We simply don't agree.  Your Honours made exactly

15     the same points to us, that we couldn't use witnesses simply to get

16     documents in and we had to bar table them, and that's what we did.  So we

17     suggest that's the right way of doing it.  And can we get on and get this

18     witness to deal with something he actually knows something about.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE HALL:  It's time for the break.  We will deal with this

21     when we come back.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, to the extent that the Chamber

Page 22450

 1     understands what -- the importance of these documents on which you wish

 2     to rely, our recollection is that faced with a similar problem, when the

 3     Prosecution was conducting its case, it was suggested that the course --

 4     the most practical course was to lead oral evidence from the witness on

 5     the stand to present and lay down a sampling of the type of documents and

 6     then the bulk was brought in by way of a separate motion.  So that is

 7     what we are thinking could or should be done in this case, that -- and in

 8     that vein, may I inquire as to how -- what is your bulk like?  We've seen

 9     one or two samples.  How many documents are we talking about altogether?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have altogether six documents, Your Honours, six

11     judgements, which we requested in our motion that five of them be

12     admitted on the 65 ter list.  And this is a pending motion.  And one

13     document is on our 65 ter list and I would ask that this one be admitted

14     and ...

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, to save time, we will not object to

16     the admission on to the 65 ter list nor into evidence of these documents,

17     those six.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let's move quick.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, should I read on the record the

21     numbers of documents?

22             JUDGE HALL:  Well, since you have them, yes, that would save more

23     time.  Yes.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.  So first document is 906D1.

25     It's tab --

Page 22451

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, as a -- perhaps I'm being - what's the

 2     word? - pernickety, but don't we have to have the witness on the stand

 3     and formally admit the sample and then go for the --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.

 5             MS. KORNER:  In fact, Your Honours, I'm not sure that we do.  I

 6     think we can.  As we are not disputing it, they can just read them out

 7     and Your Honours admit them.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  I was just -- I just thought that the

 9     list had to be admitted against an exhibit, but we haven't yet exhibited

10     anything.  That was the only point I was making.  So this one would be

11     exhibited, but the witness -- does the witness have to be on the stand

12     for it to be tendered, that's the only ...

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE HALL:  So this is admitted and marked.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  906D1 is the first document.  Shall we admit

16     that one first?  And then the rest.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D596, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay, the next document is 905D1, tab 284.  And the

19     following document is 907D1, tab 286.  Then 908D1, tab 287.  Then 909D1,

20     tab 288.  And 910D1, tab 289.  Thank you very much.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, exhibit numbers assigned will be

22     1D597 through 1D601.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, awhile ago we saw the destiny of criminal reports

Page 22452

 1     filed for crimes perpetrated by members of the Serbian people in 1992.

 2     What was the destiny of the criminal reports filed in 1992 encompassing

 3     crimes committed by the other ethnic groups with the Serbs as victims?

 4        A.   Regrettably, nothing was done about those criminal reports.  I

 5     could explain, if you like.  All the criminal reports filed by the

 6     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska and dually submitted to the

 7     relevant prosecutors based on our information, and our information was

 8     reliable, first of all seemed to be passed along from one prosecutor to

 9     the next one down the line.  The military prosecutor would forward a case

10     to a civilian prosecutor, and a civilian prosecutor would send the case

11     file back to the military prosecutor.  From there it went on to the

12     district prosecutor.  And then depending on the changing regulations,

13     something else would happen next.

14             This Tribunal probably knows about the fact that so-called rules

15     of the Roman path were adopted.  The criminal files or formal reports in

16     this case ended up here in The Hague.  When the prosecutor's office in

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina was established, the BH courts, the reports were

18     delivered to the BH prosecutor's office.  To this very day, over

19     90 per cent of those cases are still at the investigation stage.  The

20     same stage, in other words, that these cases were at back in 1992 or

21     indeed back in 1995.

22             MS. KORNER:  I think, Mr. Zecevic, that page 56 line 2 should

23     read "rules of the road," as opposed to "rules of the Roman path" which

24     is a great description.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, I agree.

Page 22453

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, I only have a couple of questions

 2     left for you.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

 4     65 ter 20187, OTP tab 52.

 5        Q.   You don't have it in that binder.  The document was announced

 6     later on, and you will see it's come up on the monitor, on the screen in

 7     front of you.

 8             Mr. Tusevljak, your own service for investigating war crimes was

 9     also assisting whenever a defence request arose to deliver documents, was

10     that not the case?

11        A.   Yes.  Whenever we received a request, quite regardless of whether

12     the request in question was from the OTP or from the Defence, we would

13     grant access to all of the documents available to us, in keeping with the

14     laws and regulations.  Needless to say, each time we would clearly stress

15     that the documents could only be used for the purposes of a trial and

16     that these documents were by no means to be published or indeed used for

17     any other purpose.

18        Q.   Sir, the date on this document is the 15th of November, 2007,

19     signed by team co-ordinator Simo Tusevljak.  Is this one of your

20     documents, sir?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   Sir, among other things, at page 4 of the Serbian and number 50,

23     could you please comment specifically on what the documentation that you

24     delivered to the Stanisic Defence is in relation to?

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Page 5 of the English.  Number 50.

Page 22454

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure specifically what this

 2     is about.  There are just too many documents.  The documents were

 3     prepared by my units, my service, not me personally.  Which means, when I

 4     look at this, it's obvious that this was about an expert opinion,

 5     obtaining an expert opinion on something.  But it's impossible for me to

 6     address each document separately and tell you what it was about.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you just look at the documents which are in your binder under

 9     tabs 210 through to 256.  Just glance through them, please, and tell us

10     whether you are familiar with these documents.

11        A.   These are documents that are available to us.  At the moment, in

12     our archives, we have thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of

13     various documents which are all stacked in cupboards and which

14     specifically have to do with war crimes.  Not just where the seat of my

15     team is located in Pale, but also in departments located in the territory

16     of Republika Srpska that I co-ordinate.  That includes Banja Luka, Doboj,

17     Bijeljina, Trebinje, and Sarajevo, which has a separate department.

18        Q.   Sir, all these documents which I asked you to glance at are some

19     sorts of expert opinions.  Please tell me whether these documents have

20     been submitted to the Prosecutor's Office of this Tribunal.  Or let me

21     ask a more specific question:  The documents which have been seized from

22     the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka, have they been submitted to

23     the Prosecutor's office of this Tribunal?

24        A.   This is something I couldn't know.  But if The Hague

25     investigators seized these documents, then they should have submitted all

Page 22455

 1     these documents to the Prosecutor's Office.  Why would they have seized

 2     it otherwise?

 3        Q.   Do you know that in 1998 the complete documentation of the

 4     Security Services Centre in Banja Luka was seized by

 5     ICTY Prosecutor's Office investigators?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, sorry, I'm perfectly prepared to concede,

 7     we've said this a number of times, that a large quantity of documents

 8     were seized from the CSB.  I'm not prepared to say that the complete was

 9     seized because I'm aware that some rooms weren't searched and that's why

10     we've been finding a loft financial information.  None of the financial

11     information, for example, was taken at that time.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay, fair enough.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Please tell me, as you have glanced at the

14     documents which I pointed out to you under these tabs 210 through to 250,

15     were these the documents which were submitted to us under item 50 in

16     2007?

17        A.   Yes, I think it should be that that's it, because these are

18     the -- this is the expertise of different traces found at the scene by

19     the crime technicians during 1992.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering the

22     position of the Trial Chamber stated on page 7840, I would tender this

23     document into evidence.

24             MS. KORNER:  The letter?  No objection, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, document or documents?

Page 22456

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  This document, Your Honour, the letter from the

 2     RS which is 65 ter 20187, tab 52.  I believe it's in front of

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D602, Your Honours.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.  Based on this --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry.  Tab 52?

 8             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Our bundle.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, the Prosecution binder.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] That one, it has a P

11     number, no?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  No.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] On your list it has.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Delvoie, please.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It hasn't.  Okay.  It's on your list with a

16     P number.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.

18             And based on this, Your Honours, and in light of the decision of

19     the Trial Chamber handed down, oral decision, on page 7840 during the

20     testimony of Tutus, Vladimir, I would move the Trial Chamber at this

21     point to de-MFI the documents 1D214 until 1D232.  Thank you very much.

22             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, it went a bit further than that,

23     when there was an attempt not, in fact, to put in all the documents that

24     Mr. Zecevic referred to, but only the ones that were MFI, whereas I think

25     Mr. Zecevic is now trying to put in every single solitary one under each

Page 22457

 1     tab; is that right?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, I'm just talking about the documents which were

 3     mentioned during the testimony of Mr. Tutus on page 7840 and further, and

 4     it contains the numbers 1D214 until number 1D232.  And all the documents

 5     were MFI'd, and they were MFI'd because of the proof of authenticity --

 6     pending matter of authenticity being resolved at some point.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, in fact, it's a bit more complicated

 8     than that.  But, Your Honours, can I ask this:  I do have some questions

 9     about this letter and these documents, and may I ask that you wait before

10     making a decision, and also give me a chance to recheck this, until the

11     end of cross?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's fine with me, Your Honours.

13             Your Honours, thank you, I have no further questions for this

14     witness.

15             [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tusevljak.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no questions

18     for this witness.  Otherwise, if we started, we would have to deal with

19     around 7.000 criminal reports which Mr. Stojan Zupljanin filed, so we

20     won't be asking the witness anything about that.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Noted.  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

22             Yes, Ms. Korner.

23             MS. KORNER:  I don't know how proper that is, but still.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:

25        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, you told the Court at page 22193 that you enrolled

Page 22458

 1     in this police academy in Skopje in 1984 and were there for four years,

 2     until 1988; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And then you went to the SJB in Novi Grad in Sarajevo.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That was your first job in the MUP.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And unlike we've heard from some witnesses, during the course of

 9     your four-year study, you didn't actually take time out, did you, to go

10     and work as a member of the MUP?

11        A.   I just had practical work after the second and third years of

12     study.  It was a month on each occasion.

13        Q.   Right.  So by the time the conflict broke out and the split took

14     place in the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you had actually only been

15     working for around three years as a police officer; is that right?

16        A.   Yes, exactly three years.

17        Q.   Right.  So it be right to say, wouldn't it, that you weren't,

18     perhaps, the most experienced of police officers?

19        A.   That's certain if I only had three years of work experience

20     behind me.

21        Q.   Right.  And whilst you were at Novi Grad, you were an inspector

22     in the -- an ordinary inspector in the SUP -- oh, sorry, in the police

23     station?

24        A.   Yes, in the crime police department.

25        Q.   And then you moved to the SUP in Sarajevo, and originally, when

Page 22459

 1     you first joined the RS MUP, is that right - just let me find the right

 2     page - you worked out of -- sorry, you did tell us which police station

 3     it was.  Oh, it was the police station at your home address -- at your

 4     home in Nedzarici?

 5        A.   Yes, from the 4th of April, 1992, that was the reserve police

 6     station.  It was not the typical police station.

 7        Q.   Right.  And did you then move to the CSB Sarajevo, you told us,

 8     in early June 1992?

 9        A.   First I was in the crime police administration, and that was

10     where I was registered in the month of May.  I'm not certain but for a

11     while I was an inspector at the crime police station administration at

12     the level of the Republika Srpska MUP.  That means not at the Security

13     Services Centre but, rather, at the administration, but it was just for a

14     short period.

15        Q.   Fine.  So during the course of that time when you were still an

16     inspector, did you have dealings with prisoners of Muslim ethnicity?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   None at all?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You told us later on, I think on Friday, quite a lot about what's

21     commonly called Kula Prison but I think is properly called the

22     Butmir Prison facility; is that right?

23        A.   We call it the Kula Prison.  And I live nearby.  I'm living close

24     to that prison even today.  So when it comes to that prison, this is

25     something I'm familiar with even though I didn't work in the police.  My

Page 22460

 1     house is perhaps 200 metres away from that prison, and I pass by it

 2     practically every day.

 3        Q.   Right.  As I say, you gave a very detailed description of the SJB

 4     and the prison as they were in 1992, so do we take it from that that you

 5     visited those premises on a number of occasions?

 6        A.   The prison is the same today as it was back then.  The

 7     administrative building is in the same place and so is the detention

 8     unit.  And we then took the measures of detention for persons who had

 9     committed criminal offences.  That was not just in 1992, but to the end

10     of the war there was a detention unit there.  A detention unit where we

11     would send someone to be detained for 72 hours, that if we took such a

12     measure, this was a place where such persons were sent to be detained

13     there.

14        Q.   Right.  But at the time it also had the SJB, didn't it, in the

15     same premises, divided, as you told us, by a wall?

16        A.   Yes, at the very beginning of the war.

17        Q.   Right.  Now, you were shown by Mr. Zecevic a document which is at

18     your tab 205, and I think its number is 1D591.  And you told us that this

19     document was never submitted to the -- sorry, you said you'd never seen

20     this document and you don't know why it says that.  Is that correct?

21     That's at page 22376.

22        A.   Yes, I haven't seen this document.  The first time it was when it

23     was shown to me by the Defence.

24        Q.   But wasn't it right that the SJB at Kula was actually keeping

25     Muslim prisoners at the SJB?

Page 22461

 1        A.   Not at the Kula Police Station.

 2        Q.   And how do you know that?

 3        A.   Well, I used to enter the administrative building.  I would drop

 4     by, because while it was still possible to go across the Sarajevo airport

 5     from Nedzarici, to go there and back, when I went to the school at Vrace,

 6     this is what I was talking about, I wanted to see what my assignment was

 7     and where I would be deployed.  We would drop by to this police station

 8     to ask whether we could go across the Sarajevo airport, because at the

 9     time it was under enemy fire.  You would walk along the runway because

10     the airport was not open as such.  No planes landed or took off, but you

11     could cross the runway of the airport.

12        Q.   Don't worry about that for the moment.

13             This document is dated the 13th of June and the airport was taken

14     over by UNPROFOR at the beginning of June, wasn't it?

15        A.   Yes, around the beginning of June this possibility of crossing

16     over ceased to exist.

17        Q.   Right.  So I'm asking you how you know that prisoners were not

18     being kept at the SJB Kula instead of the prison facilities.

19        A.   Well, I'm telling you that, first of all, I had not seen this

20     document and another thing is that I did not see prisoners in the

21     administration building.  This is the basis on which I'm telling you

22     this.  This is what I know.

23        Q.   All right.  So you, from your knowledge, can think of no reason

24     why Mr. Mandic instead of sending this to the prison should be sending

25     this to the Kula SJB?

Page 22462

 1        A.   Absolutely not because the Ministry of Justice and the MUP have

 2     nothing in common.  They are two separate organisational units,

 3     completely separate.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours, I've just got to trace because

 5     we altered the bundle.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, just for the clarity of the

 7     transcript, if Ms. Korner would be so kind to clarify the existence of

 8     the SJB.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I thought that was what he said.  And we've

10     got documents showing it exists.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Perhaps the witness can take his phones off --

12     headphones off.

13             MS. KORNER:  Oh, okay.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If you could please take your

15     headphones off, Mr. Tusevljak.

16             [In English] The point of the matter is that the witness's

17     testimony during the direct was that it exist -- there existed no such

18     thing as SJB Kula.  Well, I will find the reference in the transcript.

19     What he testified about was that the SJB Novo Sarajevo, New Sarajevo, was

20     at the administrative building in front of the Butmir KPD, so ...

21             MS. KORNER:  Well, I'm sorry, I'm --

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  And your question was directed at the SJB Kula,

23     so -- and he confirmed that no such thing existed.

24             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours, he seemed to understand what I

25     was talking about.  Whether it's technically called the SJB Kula or

Page 22463

 1     not - and we'll be dealing with that with documents - as my understanding

 2     is, there was no argument there was a police station, even if it was part

 3     of Novo Sarajevo.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, there is no argument that the

 5     SJB Novo Sarajevo was stationed at the administrative building in front

 6     of the Butmir KPD prison.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   I'd like you to have a look, please --

 9             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Could we have document -- Your Honours, I'm

10     so sorry.  Because of the additions we've made to the list, I've

11     completely confused myself as to where my document is.

12             Yes.  Could we look, please, at Exhibit P1633, which is behind

13     tab 3 in the Prosecution bundle, so Mr. Tusevljak won't have it.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Tusevljak, are you familiar with this book?  It's the

15     duty book held by the Kula KP.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   I'd like you to have a look, please, at the second --

18             MS. KORNER:  Can we go, please, to the second page in English,

19     and it's the third page in B/C/S.

20        Q.   I want you to look at the last entry.  Does that read:

21             "On the 2nd of May, 1992, criminal inspectors Dejan Vaskovic and

22     Simo Tusevljak took from the police station Kula" I think that is the

23     SM Kula, whatever its correct name have been - is that Stanica Milicije

24     or something like that? - "to Pale the following persons:"

25             And it lists those people.

Page 22464

 1             Is that you?  And, sorry, in B/C/S you'd have to look at the next

 2     page as well to see the list of people.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   But I thought you told us not five minutes ago that you had no

 5     dealings with Muslim prisoners while you were an inspector.

 6        A.   Yes, but I don't think these are Muslim prisoners but

 7     perpetrators of criminal offences, and I think this had to do with drugs.

 8        Q.   Sorry.  First of all, you make a distinction, do you, when I say

 9     people -- "prisoners," you make a distinction between that and a

10     perpetrator of a criminal offence?

11        A.   Yes, I'm talking about the difference because we detained, I mean

12     the crime police, detained persons who were suspected of having

13     perpetrated a criminal offence.

14        Q.   Right.  Were these people, or at least some of them, of Muslim

15     ethnicity?

16        A.   I think that they were, four of them.

17        Q.   Right.  And you're saying, are you, that on the 2nd of May you

18     were dealing with drug offences when the conflict had just broken out?

19        A.   Well, if someone from the police took in these people because

20     perhaps they searched them at the check-point and found drugs, this was

21     probably why we took them over.  Or maybe it was something else that was

22     not in accordance with the law.

23        Q.   Right.  And is the SM Kula, described here, the same police

24     station that we've been -- that you were talking about earlier and I was

25     asking you about earlier, based in the Kula Prison, or within the

Page 22465

 1     compound of the Kula Prison?

 2        A.   Yes, it was in the administration building, rather than within

 3     the compound of the prison.  In the administration building.

 4        Q.   And whether properly or not, whether this was supposed to be part

 5     of Novo Sarajevo, it was call the Kula SJB, wasn't it, or SM?

 6        A.   It had various names.  It was supposed to be the Public Security

 7     Station Novi Grad, but it says here Kula.

 8        Q.   And that's what everybody called it, wasn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.  Mostly because of the location where it was, that was how

10     it was called.  Now, whether it was officially an SM or an SJB, that's a

11     different issue.

12        Q.   Right.  And why were you taking them to Pale, may I ask?

13        A.   Well, probably for the investigation to continue over there of

14     these persons.

15        Q.   Then why Pale?  You weren't working at Pale.

16        A.   Well, by the 2nd of May we didn't have a Security Services Centre

17     really.  Nor, indeed, were we unable to put in any quality police work.

18     Nor, indeed, did we have a proper prosecutor's office.

19        Q.   You've said that, and I'll come back to all of that now, but I

20     want to know why you as an inspector from the station that you were in

21     May were taking people from Kula to Pale?

22        A.   I don't know.  As for this other well-known criminal, I don't

23     even really remember this, believe me.

24        Q.   Sorry, which other well-known criminal?

25        A.   Nihad Rovcanin.

Page 22466

 1        Q.   And it couldn't have been, could it, for the purposes of some

 2     kind of prisoner exchange, rather like the letter we saw from Mr. Mandic?

 3        A.   No, I was not so involved in any of these exchanges at any point

 4     in time.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, I want to, as it were, deal with your career.

 6             When did you acquire your present position?

 7        A.   My present position, in 2005.

 8        Q.   And you've been supplying documents to the Stanisic Defence since

 9     at least 2007 and have you been co-operating with them since before that?

10        A.   Not as far as I know.  It was the moment we started receiving

11     formal requests.

12        Q.   Did you have meetings with Mr. Stanisic personally?

13        A.   Yes, once.

14        Q.   Just once?

15        A.   I think so.

16        Q.   And when was that?

17        A.   I can't remember specifically.  Perhaps 2007 and perhaps not.  I

18     really don't know.  The indictment had been published already and then he

19     was provisionally released at one time.

20        Q.   And did he come to see you or did you go and see him?

21        A.   I had some contacts in Belgrade with the war crimes prosecutor.

22     We were working on some things together and I was working with Serbia's

23     MUP again.  I think it was at one of those meetings that I met

24     Mr. Stanisic.

25        Q.   Apart from what you've been asked to corroborate in this letter

Page 22467

 1     for the purposes of documents for court, have you provided other

 2     documents to Mr. Stanisic and/or Mr. Stanisic's lawyers?

 3        A.   No, just what is included in the file.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, just one clarification.  I don't believe

 5     the witness's answer, the previous answer, was correctly recorded.

 6     70/3 and 4.  "I think it was at one of those meetings that I met

 7     Mr. Stanisic."  And he was talking about some MUP meetings and war crime

 8     prosecutor, and I think the witness said something different.  Can you

 9     please, for the sake of clarity, clarify that.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Okay.  I'll repeat the question I asked you.  When you met

12     Mr. Stanisic, you say on that one occasion, where did you meet him and

13     how -- well, first of all, where did you meet him?

14        A.   In Belgrade.  I don't know Belgrade well.  It was in a

15     restaurant.

16        Q.   And how did you meet him?  Did he ask to meet you?  Did you ask

17     to meet him?

18        A.   Believe me, I never thought about it then or afterwards.  I think

19     it was by accident.  Perhaps Stanisic found out from someone that I was

20     around, so he gave me a call.  I think that's how it was, but I didn't

21     think about it.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

23     last part of his answer.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   You are being asked to repeat the last part of your answer.

Page 22468

 1        A.   I wasn't thinking about it, the reason I met this person who was,

 2     in fact, my minister, my superior.

 3        Q.   Yes.  I'm sorry, but at that stage you say you knew he'd been

 4     indicted by this Tribunal and he was no longer your minister or your

 5     superior.  Were you friendly with him during 1992?

 6        A.   Not particularly.  I met Mr. Stanisic when he came from

 7     Cetar [phoen], the Sarajevo SUP, when he became the secretary of

 8     Sarajevo's SUP.  During that time I met him maybe two or three times.

 9     Afterwards, we got to know each other a little better when he became

10     minister of the interior of Republika Srpska.  And Mr. Stanisic was there

11     twice.  I got to know him better the second time around when he became

12     minister of the interior, because at the time I worked with the crime

13     police administration in Bijeljina and I was in charge of certain

14     activities, uncovering some serious crimes.  And that was when we got to

15     know each other better and became closer friends.

16        Q.   Right.  And just a final one question before I move on to another

17     topic:  How did he have your telephone number?

18        A.   My telephone number is public.  One of my friends probably passed

19     it on to him.  My telephone number is easy enough to find in a directory,

20     perhaps in one of my business cards which I distributed thousands and

21     thousands of.  It really wasn't a problem for anyone who wished to know.

22        Q.   All right.  I want to come on to this centre for war crimes

23     investigations which you head.

24             It's right, isn't it, that you don't have in your archives one

25     single original document?

Page 22469

 1        A.   Not that we don't have a single original document.  What the

 2     Republika Srpska MUP did in relation to our own activities from 2005 on,

 3     it's all originals.  The greatest problem for us was when we started this

 4     activity in 2005 was precisely this.  We were unable to retrieve the

 5     original documentation.  First we got from you a total of 23 or 24 DVDs,

 6     copied documents, documentation that the OTP investigators seized from

 7     the Republika Srpska MUP or the public security stations throughout the

 8     territory.  We also asked the people from the war crimes investigation

 9     centre in Belgrade and they accommodated us.  We spent a full three

10     months making copies of their documents.

11             We were also given some documents from our own war crimes

12     investigation centre in Banja Luka, which is part of the justice

13     ministry.  We also contacted all the NGOs who we had learned were in

14     possession in some documents -- in possession of some documents related

15     to war crimes, so we tried to obtain those too.

16        Q.   I'm not -- can I put it this way, Mr. Tusevljak:  I'm not

17     criticizing you.  I'm merely asking for a fact.  The reality is, and for

18     the reasons you described, you don't have a single original document

19     prior to, as you say, 2005?  That's right, isn't it?

20        A.   Yes.  In 90 per cent of the cases, the documents were like that.

21        Q.   Yes.  And, again, please, I'm not criticizing you for this at

22     all, but you have absolutely no method whatsoever of assessing whether

23     your documents that you have got from various sources, I accept, are

24     authentic or not authentic?

25        A.   Well, we do.  When we enclose a document like that and send it to

Page 22470

 1     the prosecutor, normally we get a request from the prosecutor.  And this

 2     was very often the case.  We go back to whoever we got the document from

 3     in order to obtain a certified copy of the document.

 4             It was the case on several occasions that documents obtained from

 5     the war crimes investigation centre in Belgrade would be forwarded to the

 6     BH prosecutor and then the BH prosecutor would seek international legal

 7     assistance and would ask that the court in Belgrade confirm the

 8     authenticity of whatever document, which they would invariably do.

 9             Likewise, if we knew that the documents were from The Hague

10     Tribunal, we would advise the prosecutor to again seek co-operation and

11     get the original documents from the OTP or from the Tribunal itself.

12     Therefore, that was the only way to prove the authenticity of the

13     documents we were using in our own court proceedings.  We were not able

14     to examine or cross-examine those who produced those documents, unlike

15     you.  That, you will agree, is a job for the prosecutor.

16        Q.   For any of that list of documents that was on that letter

17     Mr. Zecevic showed you, did you go back to the originators and say, Can

18     you certify that these are genuine, proper, that the originals are

19     genuine documents produced on the date and at the time that it appears to

20     say?

21        A.   Well, in some of the letters and exchanges we would even clearly

22     point out that the documents in question were copies.

23        Q.   Right.  Well, I mean, I'm simply asking you about that letter.

24     And you can take it with you, if you like, a copy of it.  And whether, in

25     respect of any of the documents, the 170 I think it is, you are able to

Page 22471

 1     say that you got a certificate to say these are the originals properly

 2     produced at the time and by the people who they appear to be?

 3        A.   No, no one asked us to do that.  We're simply asked whether we

 4     had documents available in our archives and whether we had the copies

 5     too.

 6        Q.   Now, you also told the Trial Chamber about your work with, you

 7     say, the state court of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Could you tell the

 8     Court, please - and if may be better, I suppose, if we go into private

 9     session for this - the names of the investigations on which you have

10     worked for the -- or with the prosecutor's office of BiH.

11             MS. KORNER:  I don't think we need to have the blinds for private

12     session.

13                           [Private session]

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Page 22472











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19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   I'd like you, please, Mr. Tusevljak, to take with you tonight a

23     copy of the CSB Sarajevo KU book, and I would like you, please, to go

24     through it and check to see whether you have any criminal reports in this

25     going up until 1995, which I think it runs up to, for Serbs committing

Page 22477

 1     crimes against non-Serbs, war crimes.  Whether they're described as

 2     murders, you've told us, or war crimes.  And secondly, I'm going to give

 3     you, because there was a complaint last time about this, a copy of the

 4     MUP report, that came out in January of 1993, the annual report, which

 5     doesn't appear that Mr. Zecevic showed you, so that you can take that

 6     away and read that overnight.  Unless there's an objection.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, has this document ever been disclosed to

 8     the --

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- Defence?

11             MS. KORNER:  It has.  I don't know when.  All the Prosecutor's

12     log-books were disclosed.  KU books.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  It has the number 20188.

14             MS. KORNER:  That doesn't mean -- we haven't used it.  But it was

15     disclosed.  All the Prosecutor's books -- all the KU books have been

16     disclosed.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can you please provide us with a date.

18             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I will.  Tomorrow.  I'd like him to have it

19     back, please.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but I will have the objection if it's not

21     disclosed before.

22             MS. KORNER:  I want him to have it.  Would Your Honours allow the

23     usher to give him that document and this one?

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

25             MS. KORNER:  Batch 110, 5th of March, 2010.

Page 22478

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Before we adjourn, Mr. Tusevljak, do you understand

 2     what it is the Prosecution is requesting of you?  Do you have any

 3     questions that you would want to put to her through the Chamber before we

 4     rise?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is just one of the logs that

 6     we kept for reports submitted directly by the Security Services Centre.

 7     Public security stations in the centre area had their own registers, and

 8     the total number of criminal reports filed would be added up based on

 9     those received by the police stations and this register.

10             But, yes, I do understand what Ms. Korner is expecting me to do.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             So we take the adjournment to tomorrow morning at 9.00.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day

16                           of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.