Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22652

 1                           Thursday, 23 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have today's appearances,

11     please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

13     Indah Susanti for the Prosecution.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, Ms. Tatjana Savic, and we have two

16     interns with us, Ms. Louise Beck and Mr. Paul Derohannesian, appearing

17     for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you very much.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated] Good morning,

19     Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and Theodora Oprea and Eelke Daatselaar

20     appearing for Zupljanin.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Before the witness resumes the stand,

22     there is a statement which the Chamber has to make.  First of all, I was

23     required yesterday afternoon to give a certain answer in respect of the

24     ancillary services which support the work of the Chamber and based on the

25     information at hand up to the time that we would have risen yesterday in

Page 22653

 1     terms of what counsel would have represented, I confirmed that we will

 2     not be sitting next week.

 3             In addition to that, the -- for reasons which the parties and

 4     counsel are all aware and which I needn't go into details about because

 5     some of it was taken in private session, it appears to us that when the

 6     present witness is released, upon the rising of the Court, we will take

 7     the adjournment to Monday the 11th of July at which time we expect

 8     Mr. Krgovic to open, and bring his -- he -- my recollection is he

 9     indicated his opening statement would take no more than one session, so

10     we expect that his first witness would be available on the 11th of July.

11     Thank you.

12             So could the usher please escort the witness to the stand.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may I just say, while the witness is

14     coming, there are probably certain technical matters that need to be

15     attended to in respect of starting the second accused's case before the

16     first one is finished, but we can deal with that when the witness is

17     finished.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Before --

21                           [The Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE HAL:  I'm sorry, I had to remind myself as to where we are.

23             Before Ms. Korner resumes her cross-examination, I remind you, I

24     give you the usual warning, that you are still on your oath.

25             Yes, Ms. Korner.

Page 22654

 1                           WITNESS: SIMO TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:  [Continued]

 4        Q.   Sir, I want to return very briefly to two matters that we dealt

 5     with yesterday.  First of all, the question of whether Mr. Blagojevic,

 6     Sasa Blagojevic, was actually working for you during May, and you told

 7     the Court yesterday you thought he was in Gorazde.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up on the screen, please, 20214,

 9     please.

10        Q.   This is described as a bulletin of daily events, it's actually

11     sent up to the ministry of interior in Sarajevo and not to the

12     CSB Sarajevo, dated the 27th of May, 1992.  There's a typed name,

13     Sasa Blagojevic, and some kind of initialing.  I don't know, are you able

14     to say whether those -- that's the way he'd sign?

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but

16     Ms. Korner just said that it's actually sent up to the Ministry of

17     Interior in Sarajevo; based on what?

18             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, it's from the -- you're quite right.

19     Sorry.  It's headed the Ministry of the Interior.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but all the documents despite where they are

21     coming from are headed Ministry of Interior.

22             MS. KORNER:  All right.

23        Q.   I don't know where this is coming from.  It's headed the

24     "Ministry of the Interior."  It's headed "Bulletin of Daily Events,"

25     dated the 27th of May.  Can you tell me whether you recognise the

Page 22655

 1     initials as those of Mr. Blagojevic?

 2        A.   No, I do not recognise these initials.  This is a bulletin of the

 3     Ministry of the Interior.  If it was the bulletin of the Security

 4     Services Centre, then it would have clearly said "Security Services

 5     Centre, Romanija-Birac."  That's our masthead that you can see in all our

 6     documents.

 7        Q.   All right.  I'm only interested in does it appear -- was there

 8     any other Sasa Blagojevic that you know of who was working at the

 9     ministry in Vrace on the 27th of May?

10        A.   I don't know.  I know that there is another Sasa Blagojevic.  I'm

11     not sure whether he worked in the police at the time.  He works in the

12     police now.

13        Q.   All right.  Do the events that are dealt with in this bulletin

14     are all the names of the places within the greater Sarajevo area, if I

15     can put it that way, Bosanska Surbata Street and Petrovacka Street?

16        A.   This is Vrace.

17        Q.   Well, I mean, all I want to know is whether Mr. Blagojevic was in

18     fact working on the 27th of May, whether this makes you change your mind?

19        A.   This is the very end of May.  I don't know whether he worked at

20     the time or not.  As far as I know in April and May he was in Gorazde, so

21     since this is the very end of May, he may have returned by then.  I said

22     April and May.  He definitely spent some time here, enough that he went

23     to Zvornik.

24        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  That's all I ask about that.

25             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please -- I want to return,

Page 22656

 1     please, to the question of the JNA's occupation with the airport which is

 2     linked with the establishment of Novo Sarajevo station SJB.  Could we

 3     have up on the screen, please, the document which is 20213.

 4        Q.   This is apparently the statement of Mr. Kenan Delic, inspector in

 5     the MUP, and do you remember I asked you yesterday whether you knew a

 6     Kenan Delic who worked at the airport and you said you did.  This

 7     apparently is a report on the JNA take-over of the airport.  It's got a

 8     signature.  Do you -- would you recognise Mr. Delic's signature?

 9        A.   No, I've never seen his signature.

10        Q.   As I say, it's headed "Report on the JNA Take-over of the

11     Sarajevo Airport."  He says he worked, if you look at the first

12     paragraph, first sentence, 4th of April this year to the afternoon of the

13     5th of April.  He was at the Sarajevo Airport Police Station.  And then

14     there's a description about the, effectively, what was already the split

15     in the MUP.  Second paragraph, does that begin:

16             "In the afternoon of the 5th of April, having selected the staff,

17     I left a reinforced shift at the airport and sent a portion of the

18     manpower to rest for a couple of hours"?

19             If we go to the sentence towards the end of the second paragraph:

20             "From time to time I had telephone contacts with the shift

21     commander, Mr. Zahid Hodzic," and then, "who informed me that it was

22     quiet at the airport.  However, in the evening he informed me that he had

23     heard from the flight control officer" --

24             MS. KORNER:  Could we go, please, to the second page in English.

25        Q.   -- "that a JNA unit was en route to the airport from Rajlovac.

Page 22657

 1     The unit had six tanks and a couple of personnel carriers," and he goes

 2     on, and I don't want to go any further because the actual detail is

 3     irrelevant.

 4             Would you be prepared to accept now, Mr. Tusevljak, that the JNA

 5     went into the airport on the 5th of April?

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I do object because I think if Ms. Korner is

 7     putting to the witness the statement of another person it should be read

 8     until the end.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I don't want to spend any time on

10     it.  What I will do is give Mr. Tusevljak a hard copy of it which he can

11     read, it's very short, over the break, and I'll deal with it as the last,

12     hopefully the last, thing I'm going to ask him, if that's satisfactory to

13     Mr. Zecevic.  May I say, I'm not seeking to exhibit it; it's purely to

14     see whether he's prepared to change his answers.

15        Q.   Right.  I want to move, please --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Didn't the witness change his answers already in

17     making the difference between Serb take-over and JNA take over, and he

18     admitted to the JNA take-over.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes, but I don't -- it was the date I don't think he

20     was agreeing to, Your Honours.  That's all.  I'm only concerned about the

21     date.  Everything else is agreed, it's just the date.  And the reason is,

22     as Your Honours knows, because it's linked to the Novo Sarajevo incident.

23        Q.   Right.  I would now like, please, to deal with, yes, one other

24     matter relating to disciplinary.

25             As far as the reserve police are concerned, could we have up

Page 22658

 1     again, please, the document you were shown, 1D190, which is tab 76 of the

 2     Defence bundle, Mr. Tusevljak, so you've got the actual hard-copy

 3     document there.

 4             This was the report from Vlasenica on the 6th of August in

 5     response to a request to know about disciplinary proceedings, I think,

 6     and the removal of police officers who committed offences.

 7             "Based on documented criminal offences, the Vlasenica Public

 8     Security Station filed 14 criminal reports against 14 perpetrators of

 9     which 13 were for aggravated theft and one for murder.  All the

10     individuals involved are members of the reserve police force.  And the

11     equipment they had been issued with was taken away with [sic] them

12     immediately by the Vlasenica Public Security Station.  Because of

13     breaches of work discipline, 35 members of the reserve force were made to

14     return the equipment they had been issued with and were removed from

15     work."

16             So is this the situation, as regards reserve police, there were

17     two sanctions.  First, that they could be made to surrender all the

18     equipment and were removed from work?

19        A.   They were reserve policemen.  As far as I know, they could have

20     been removed only because they did not actually work in the MUP of the

21     RS.

22        Q.   Yes.  Right, that they were called up to serve for certain

23     periods.  But the way of disciplining them was to make sure that they

24     were no longer reserve policemen and that they no longer had equipment;

25     correct?

Page 22659

 1        A.   No, I think there were no disciplinary proceedings.  I think that

 2     they only returned their equipment.  And if there was a report, they

 3     would have been tried.  If there was no report, they would probably be

 4     transferred to the military.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Just pause for a moment.  If a person who was a reserve

 6     police officer committed a disciplinary infraction which did not amount,

 7     however, to the possibility of a criminal act, then the remedy was to

 8     remove from him all the equipment, his ID card, and the like; is that

 9     right?  If you don't know the answer because you've never dealt with

10     disciplinary proceedings, Mr. Tusevljak, then please say so.

11        A.   I don't know.  I had no reserve policemen under me, so I don't

12     know.

13        Q.   All right.  That's fair enough.  But -- and we can see also,

14     however, that here the Vlasenica SJB had actually filed criminal reports

15     against 14 members of the reserve police force; is that right?

16             Well, I think we can all read that so it's otiose.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Right.  Now, you were shown a document by the Defence which is at

19     tab 91, Exhibit 1D589 MFI.  Tab 91 in the Defence bundle.  This is the

20     Crisis Staff of Vogosca issuing an order on the 26th of May about the

21     release from prison of 154 people, going on to say 20 persons are left in

22     the prison and are being operatively processed.

23             Now, before we go any further, we've discussed operatively

24     processing before.  Are you prepared to accept that this was an

25     expression used by a number of police in different places to mean

Page 22660

 1     interviewing those who had been taken prisoner?

 2        A.   Well, operative work means that checks are being made about these

 3     persons.  It's basically about checks being made.  You can call it

 4     whatever you want.  But the men who wrote this, I already told you, I

 5     didn't know Zdravko Luketa, I heard about this name the first time when I

 6     looked at this document, so this is some sort of order that he issued.

 7     So I really, really don't know that.

 8        Q.   Well, the reason I'm putting that to you, because you say that's

 9     a meaningless expression in this context, and I'm suggesting to you that

10     it's an expression that we find in many police documents relating to

11     prisoners, non-Serbs, who had been taken to let me call them detention

12     institutions and meant interviewing them to find out what nationality

13     they were, what they'd been doing, how they'd come to be there, or words

14     to that effect.  Now, are you prepared to accept that or not?  If you're

15     not, say so straightaway.

16        A.   This sort of order -- well, this is the first order of this kind

17     that see.  I haven't seen anything else similar.  Operative work is a

18     standard terminology for the police.  Operative work can mean a lot of

19     things.  It's a very, very wide term.  The meaning is very wide.

20        Q.   Fine.  That will do.  Thank you very much.

21             Now, from that you were led on by -- from this document you were

22     led on to ask [sic] questions about a Mr. Vlaco or the two Mr. Vlacos.

23             At page 2246 of the transcript -- sorry, 22246, you in fact were

24     shown another document about the suggestion -- the report which had the

25     suggestion of appointing Mr. Brane Vlaco.  Now, you were asked about

Page 22661

 1     Brane Vlaco, and you said this:

 2             "Brane Vlaco was an ex-employee of the white collar crime of the

 3     Sarajevo CSB.  He might have been in some kind of management position.

 4     He was there when the war broke out because he was originally from

 5     Vogosca.  He signed up to work in this police station, so he was an

 6     inspector in our centre before the war.

 7             "Do you know him personally?

 8             "Yes, I know him personally.

 9             "Did he have some kind of specific feature, mustache, beard?

10             And you said:

11             "At the time he had a mustache I think.  Today that's true, but I

12     haven't seen him for a number of years," leaving aside the slight

13     inconsistency there, but never mind.

14             And then you were asked:

15             "What happened to him after this, did he become the chief of the

16     crime prevention service at Vogosca SJB?

17             "A.  I don't think he did.  And if he did by any chance, he then

18     held that position for a very short period of time because soon after he

19     left the area.

20             "Q.  Do you know where he when and what he did?

21             "A.  I think that for a while he was an inspector at the crime

22     police administration in Bijeljina, the RS MUP, and then after that he

23     moved to some other positions that were not within the MUP.

24             "Q.  Do you know what he does today?

25             "A.  I think that he is a banker nowadays."

Page 22662

 1             And then, slightly later, at - it was the next day - page 22348,

 2     you were taken back to that document from the beginning of July from

 3     Vogosca and it was put to you that there was a proposal that "Brane Vlaco

 4     be appointed chief of the crime police.  Do you remember that?"

 5             And then you were asked:

 6             "... do you remember what his real name was?  His first name?"

 7             And you think:

 8             "Branislav, I think.  Branislav Vlaco ... Brane is just a

 9     nickname.

10             "Do you know a person with the same last name but a different

11     first name, namely Branko Vlaco?

12             "Yes, I met that person sometime during the course of the war in

13     1992.

14             "What do you know about this gentleman, Branko Vlaco?

15             "I think" that "he was a retired policeman and that at the

16     beginning of the war he was a prison warden, or sometime during 1992, I

17     don't know exactly."

18             Now, let's just get clear when you met this man who was the

19     prison warden.  Is that the man -- did you meet him by going to Vogosca,

20     to the prison there?

21        A.   No, I met him -- whether it was in Vogosca or elsewhere, I don't

22     know, but I met him sometime in 1992.  I did not meet him in the prison

23     because I never went there.

24        Q.   Right.  So you can't say anything other than you met him in 1992?

25        A.   Yes, I think I met him sometime in 1992.  And then after that I

Page 22663

 1     had a chance to get to know him better because later on in 1993 or 1994

 2     he was transferred to work in the police again.  And then in the

 3     meetings, in 1994 or maybe even 1995, I had the opportunity to get to

 4     know him better.  So it was in the police, because the centre was then

 5     transferred from Lukavica to Ilidza and it was there.

 6        Q.   You see, there's no dispute in this case that the Vlaco who was

 7     the warden of this prison in Vogosca did in October 1992 become the

 8     commander of the SJB Vogosca.  So is that when you met him?

 9        A.   Probably.  I'm telling you, I don't know when, but it was 1992.

10     I even thought that he was appointed to that post in 1993 or maybe even

11     later.

12        Q.   Yes, well, we've seen evidence and heard evidence about this,

13     Mr. Tusevljak, so don't concern yourself.  But I want to try and see if I

14     can, with you, sort out these two different Vlacos.

15             Would you accept that both Brane and Branko are short forms for

16     the full -- or nicknames for the name Branislav?

17        A.   Where I come from it's usual for nicknames like that to be

18     thought up.  Brane could be Branislav, Bratislava, Branko, Branimir, all

19     that, really.  It's just a nickname.  No more than that.  The short form

20     of a name, you know.

21        Q.   Right.  That's agreed.  Not that it matters whether I agree or

22     not.  Right.

23             MS. KORNER:  Could we have a look, please, first of all, at

24     document 20209, which is tab 59 in the Prosecution bundle.

25        Q.   All right.  This appears to be headed "Biography," and we can see

Page 22664

 1     it's got a signature and it says Vlaco, Branislav.  Says he was born in

 2     1957 and then can we go -- sorry, I've lost my own copy of this English

 3     version.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Could I slightly -- can we zoom in slightly on

 5     paragraph 2, please, on the English.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   He then says that he went and worked in -- no, he was in Slovenia

 7     for six months, worked on business plans, blah, blah, and then at about

 8     the fifth line:

 9             "I spent the period from the 10th of February, 1984, until

10     December 1986 on this job, then I was transferred to the republican SUP,

11     i.e., the CSB Sarajevo, in the business of discovering and preventing

12     high industry" -- it must be crime, "with emphasis on bank deals.  I had

13     been on this post until the beginning of the war, when I left for Vogosca

14     where I took the job for housing and municipal services in the Serbian

15     municipality of Vogosca."  And so on and so forth.

16             Now, that's the first man you described, is it, the one who was

17     in the CSB, it would appear?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And he says that he left the CSB at the beginning of the war,

20     went to Vogosca, and took a job for housing.  You may or may not know

21     that, but did he leave the CSB Sarajevo at the beginning of the war?  Had

22     he gone by the time you started work there?

23        A.   I don't think you understood.  This Sarajevo CSB is the Security

24     Services Centre in Sarajevo of the republican secretariat of the Republic

25     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this is the centre that kept on existing until

Page 22665

 1     the 4th of April, 1992, the one where he worked.  And he's talking about

 2     leaving that security centre -- Security Services Centre.

 3        Q.   I understand that.  Sorry, what I'm trying to get:  He certainly

 4     wasn't working for the CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac?

 5        A.   No, we're not talking about the Romanija-Birac centre.  He left

 6     the Security Services Centre of the republican SUP in Sarajevo on the

 7     4th of April, 1992.  That was the one he left, not the Romanija-Birac

 8     centre, because the Romanija-Birac centre was not around on the

 9     4th of April, 1992.  It wasn't there.

10        Q.   All right.  That's fine.  But then it says he goes off at the

11     beginning of the war to go into housing.

12             Now could you have a look, please, at 20206, which is tab 35A.

13     This is a report following a visit to the Svrake settlement.  The

14     commission established there are a certain number of free family houses,

15     and don't worry about that.

16             MS. KORNER:  Can we go, please, to the second page in English and

17     the third page in B/C/S.

18        Q.   This is a report of the 14th of October and it shows that the

19     commission who was dealing with this consisted of Brane Vlaco and two

20     other people.  So that appears to be, does it not, the man, the Vlaco who

21     was at the CSB, left, and, according to his biography, went into housing;

22     would you agree with that?

23        A.   I've never seen these documents before.  I can't talk about

24     Branislav Vlaco or Brane.  I wasn't in the area.  I didn't know about

25     this.  I looked at his CV and I found out for the first time that he was

Page 22666

 1     a member of this commission for housing issues in -- and public utilities

 2     in Vogosca municipality.  That's when his name came forward.  And I was

 3     right when I said that I didn't remember him being appointed chief --

 4     crime police chief at all.  If he held that position, it would only have

 5     been for a very short time because I couldn't even remember at the time.

 6     I know for a fact, nevertheless, that he was a member of the crime police

 7     administration at one point in time when I was there too, and we worked

 8     together.  But is it the same Brane Vlaco or a different person going by

 9     the same name, it's difficult to say, because you see all these documents

10     referring to Brane Vlaco.  No names, just inverted commas, I really don't

11     know.

12        Q.   Can I say, Mr. Tusevljak, this is not entirely your fault, but

13     this just happens to be something that has to be dealt with and it

14     appears you're the only witness, and you were led to talk about him, who

15     can deal with it.  So, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask you:  But as a

16     matter of common sense, the Vlaco who signed that CV, I suppose one would

17     call it, is the one who was in the CSB, the one who goes off into

18     housing, and who in October of 1992 is dealing with housing that is

19     available in Svrake; would you agree as a matter of common sense that's

20     right?

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I don't understand this question.

22     The matter of common sense.  We all, I hope, have a common sense, so

23     therefore -- well, yes, it's a matter for discussion, I agree.  Yes.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour knows why I have to deal with this, and

25     there's nothing else I can do.

Page 22667

 1        Q.   All right.  So --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  May I suggest, Ms. Korner, that the -- although

 3     usually we don't ask a fact witness to draw inferences, see what his

 4     comment is and then leave the rest for argument.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 6        Q.   Would you agree, Mr. Tusevljak, that even though you've never

 7     seen those documents before, the proper inference that can be drawn from

 8     this is that the man that you knew who had been in the CSB went off into

 9     the housing commission and in October of 1992 was dealing with that

10     housing?

11        A.   Let's assume it's about the same person or assume it is the same

12     person.  It's an assumption.  If you look at the CV, this is the housing

13     commission, and then a reasonable deduction would be it's him, wouldn't

14     it?

15        Q.   Now, let's go back to the other Vlaco, shall we, the one who was

16     running the prison.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we have a look, please, at document 20193, which

18     is at 6A bis of the Prosecution bundle.

19        Q.   This is an interview with the man Branko Vlaco who was commander

20     of the Vogosca Prison, was commander.  He is currently the chief of

21     police in Vogosca.  So it's clearly the man who went from the prison to

22     Vogosca Police Station.  Interview took place in his office.  And he then

23     explained that he'd been "a member of the federal Yugoslav police in this

24     district.  I retired a few months before the war in order to open a

25     restaurant, serving only wild game.  And when the war began, I was made

Page 22668

 1     commandant of the prison here in Vogosca."

 2             So, again, I appreciate this is not a document you've seen

 3     before, but would you again agree, as a matter of logic and inference,

 4     that this man who's being interviewed who was the prison warden and is

 5     then in the police in Vogosca is different from the man that you knew who

 6     had been in the CSB and then in the housing?

 7        A.   First of all, what I see in front of me is in English, which

 8     unfortunately I don't speak.  I can't answer based on the document.  I

 9     can answer based on the question you asked.  These are two different

10     persons.  Brane Vlaco was a lawyer or a prison director, as he passes him

11     himself off, and then after a while he became police commander at the

12     Vogosca Police Station.  And that's as much as I can tell.

13             MS. KORNER:  Finally on this topic, I hope, could we have a look

14     at P-- two more documents --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, can we have this document

16     MFI'd, please.

17             MS. KORNER:  Well, we can have it -- I'll have the whole bunch

18     exhibited, Your Honours, if that's possible.  The problem was they

19     haven't been disclosed so I wasn't going to go there, but I would like

20     them all exhibited, if I can, not just one of them.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I think I'm going to be gracious today and not

22     object.

23             MS. KORNER:  In that case, Your Honours, can I have, please,

24     exhibits 20209, tab 59, it's the biography, exhibited; 20206, tab 35A;

25     and this one which is 20193, tab 6A bis.

Page 22669

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Notwithstanding the generosity, to borrow

 3     Mr. Zecevic's choice of words, in terms of the application that

 4     Ms. Korner has made, the Chamber's reservation is as to the relevance of

 5     these document, whether we aren't just adding paper unnecessarily.

 6             Could counsel enlighten us, please.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honour, I think that the witness should

 8     take his earphones off.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Tusevljak, could you please remove your

10     headphones.

11             MS. KORNER:  I've just been practicing saying that name more

12     often than Your Honour has.

13             Your Honour, can I explain.  It's a minor point but, it's one on

14     which the Defence have been insisting.  As you know, a Branko Vlaco was

15     supposed to be a witness, and the Defence have now withdrawn him for

16     whatever reason.  And otherwise, all these matters could have been dealt

17     with with him.  There is no dispute as I understand it, and I'll accept

18     any correction, that there were two persons by the name of

19     Branislav Vlaco in Vogosca in 1992 and that on the 21st of July of 1992 a

20     Branislav Vlaco was appointed the warden of Planja's House, about which

21     Your Honours had heard so much.  There's also no dispute that that one,

22     the who was the warden of Planja's House, known as the Vogosca Prison,

23     was in fact appointed the SJB Vogosca Police commander in October, which

24     is the document P1519, and there's been testimony about that.

25             The dispute is this:  Whether the Branislav Vlaco who became the

Page 22670

 1     warden was a member of the SJB Vogosca prior to the 21st of July, 1992.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what, if I may add, what turns on this issue?

 3             MS. KORNER:  We say that the police - and it's -- the Defence

 4     have made a huge issue out of this one - were in fact closely connected

 5     with the running of these prisons, and, in particular, this one.

 6     Otherwise, Your Honours, nobody -- and can I say, straightaway, it's

 7     Mr. Zecevic who brought this all up by asking the witness these

 8     questions, and I say I'm entitled to deal with it and that's the only

 9     Defence witness I can deal with this on.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's precisely that I did -- that I did deal with

11     this matter with this witness and that is precisely because it is

12     disputed what Ms. Korner just said.  Your Honours, basically there are

13     two names, two first names, in the region which are sort of similar.  One

14     is Branko, B-r-a-n-k-o, Branko.  And that is the person, Branko Vlaco, is

15     the warden of Vogosca Prison.  That is one person.  The other person is

16     Branislav Vlaco, who was a member of the CSB, returned to Vogosca, and

17     went to the bank.  Apparently within that time he was in the housing

18     department of Vogosca municipality.

19             Now, the position of the Office of the Prosecutor was because a

20     certain person, Brano Vlaco, appears on the lists for payment in Vogosca

21     SJB prior to July, they -- their position is that this concerns the

22     Branko Vlaco, the prison warden.  The allegation is that this person was

23     a member of SJB and then he was appointed the prison warden and then

24     returned to the SJB.  Well, what we say is that is not the case.  The

25     case is that the Branislav Vlaco, the person who escaped from

Page 22671

 1     CSB Sarajevo, have been the member of the SJB for a short period of time,

 2     as this witness confirmed, that he was in the crime police of the SJB

 3     Vogosca when it was established in July for a short period of time, and

 4     then left, and that this person has nothing to do with Branko Vlaco, the

 5     prison warden.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And so, if I may ask you, Mr. Zecevic, the way I

 7     understand this is that crucial point is whether Branko Vlaco, the prison

 8     warden, would be on the MUP payroll; is that it?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's correct, Your Honours, because that is the

10     position of the Office of the Prosecutor, that this person since being a

11     member of the MUP prior to become a prison warden and after that so

12     therefore the MUP had -- something to do with the Planja's House,

13     Naka's Garages, and all the other detention centres which existed in

14     Vogosca, and we say that's not true and that there is -- that the

15     connection through Branko Vlaco is a non-existent one.  That is the

16     position.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to make sure, you just said that the witness

20     confirmed that he, and this is about Brane, the housing man, let's say,

21     that he was in the crime police of Vogosca when it was established in

22     June for a short period of time.  I want to come back to "the witness

23     confirmed."  Wasn't the witness saying he didn't know, and if he had been

24     it would have been for such a short time that he didn't realise something

25     in that vein?  Or am I confusing ...

Page 22672

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, page 14, line 7, witness's answer:

 2             "That's when his name came forward.  And I was right when I said

 3     that I didn't remember him ... appointed chief -- crime police chief at

 4     all.  If he held that position, it would only have been for a very short

 5     time because I couldn't even remember at the time.  I know for a fact,

 6     nevertheless, that he was a member of the crime police administration at

 7     one point in time when I was there too, and we worked together."

 8             And this is concerning Branislav Vlaco.

 9             Your Honours, there is a document which is Exhibit 1D106.  It's

10     the report of the 12th of July.  In that report the inspectors that went

11     to Vogosca are proposing that Vlaco, Brane be appointed chief of the

12     crime prevention department in Vogosca SJB.  Now, when I -- in the direct

13     examination the witness confirmed that it is -- that this Brane Vlaco is

14     in fact Branislav Vlaco, the one who came from the CSB and now is working

15     in the bank.  So it has nothing to do with the prison warden.  And now on

16     the cross-examination he confirmed that he knows that this person -- he

17     doesn't know if he was actually appointed, but he knows that he worked in

18     the crime prevention department and that he co-operated with him at the

19     time.

20             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, that's why, as you can see -

21     sorry - it's a live issue and I think that it's small but it's live and

22     the Defence have spent a great deal of time on it and I think, therefore,

23     that all the documents should be admitted.  I've got two further

24     documents I want to put to him.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Except that the documents that we've seen so far

Page 22673

 1     do not clearly resolve the issue of who Mr. Branko Vlaco then was.  Where

 2     does he come from and did he have anything to do with the MUP?

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes, the Vlaco who was the prison warden says he

 4     worked for the MUP before that.  Then he left to become -- to run a

 5     restaurant and, we say, then went back, became the warden, because he

 6     appears on the roll -- he went back to the police, became the warden and

 7     then finally ended up back as the commander.  Whereas the other Vlaco,

 8     having left the -- having been, obviously, some kind of a businessman,

 9     then went to the white collar unit of the CSB Sarajevo and from then,

10     according to his own biography, and it's clearly him, went into housing.

11     And that's what he's doing.  So he has nothing more to do with the police

12     after he leaves the old CSB Sarajevo.  That is our argument.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  And if I may be of assistance, Your Honours, the

14     document which you have in front of you confirms; it says "interview with

15     Branko Vlaco, commandant of the Vogosca Prison from approximately

16     May 1992 until November 1992, currently chief of police," and so and so

17     forth.

18             MS. KORNER:  Yes, but we know that.  But we know it's not right

19     because we've got the appointment of Vlaco to --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, the Mr. Vlaco that you had on your

21     witness list but you removed from your list, is that the prison warden?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, yes.

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I would hardly be wasting all

24     this -- not wasting time, but effectively having to go through these

25     matters with this witness if the real Mr. Vlaco was going to turn up, but

Page 22674

 1     he isn't.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but that would have taken much more time, I'm

 3     afraid, than this exercise.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  The documents are -- the three documents are

 6     admitted and marked.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours --

 9             MS. KORNER:  There are two more, Your Honours, that I want to

10     deal with with the witness.  I --

11             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.

12             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 20209 shall be given Exhibit P2364.

14     65 ter 20206 shall be given Exhibit P2365.  And 65 ter 20193 shall be

15     given Exhibit P2366.  Thank you.

16             MS. KORNER:  Thanks.

17             Your Honours, just to remind Your Honours, can we have up,

18     please, Exhibit P1506 to see how this has all arisen.  It's tab 4C of our

19     binder.  It's dated the 28th of May, 1992.  It's the nominal role of the

20     active and reserve police at Vogosca.  Could we go to the third page in

21     English and the second page in B/C/S.

22        Q.   At number 63 in May is listed a Brano Vlaco, which is again --

23     this is all, is it not, Mr. Tusevljak, Brano, Brane, Branko, whatever,

24     are all names, short forms of Branislav?

25        A.   I don't know that.  I'm saying it once again.  This is the first

Page 22675

 1     time that I see this list.  Please, I'm on this job in Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina too.  There is a project called CIPS; it's a database

 3     containing identificational data of all people who have personal IDs.  Do

 4     you think that there are only two persons called Brane Vlaco or maybe

 5     three, maybe even four, with the same name and also living in Vogosca?

 6     Sometimes we type in one name and 300 persons come up with the same first

 7     and last name who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina and then within those

 8     300 we have to look for the particular one we are interested in.  So I

 9     could now say, yes, that's the one, but I don't really know.

10        Q.   No, I know you don't know, Mr. Tusevljak.  Stop, please, for a

11     moment.  The trouble is, and I assume that Mr. Zecevic explained to you

12     why he was asking these questions about the Mr. Vlacos when he proofed

13     you, did he, Mr. Tusevljak?  Did Mr. Zecevic explain to you that there

14     was an argument going on between the Prosecution and the Defence about

15     who the Vlaco was who was the prison warden and at the same time was on

16     the list of police for Vogosca?

17        A.   No, I don't think that there should be anything at issue here.

18     The one who was appointed the warden, and I don't know exactly when, he

19     was the warden and then he came to work in the police.  I thought it was

20     in 1993, but it turns out it was in 1992.  And then Branko Vlaco the

21     former inspector in the CSB is a completely different person.  Now, which

22     one is on this list, I don't know.  There is no way for me to know this.

23     This is the first time that I see this list and I cannot know anything

24     about this person.

25        Q.   Correct.  That wasn't my question, though.

Page 22676

 1             Did Mr. Zecevic before you gave evidence, when you spoke to him,

 2     explain to you that he was going to ask you questions about Vlaco that

 3     had been in the CSB before the war and Vlaco who was the prison warden

 4     and then became the commander?  Did Mr. Zecevic speak to you about that?

 5     That's the question, to which the answer is either "yes" or "no."

 6        A.   Yes, he spoke about it.

 7        Q.   And did he explain to you that the reason he was going to ask you

 8     about this was because there was a dispute between the Prosecution and

 9     the Defence about the Vlaco who was a member of the police, reserve

10     police, in Vogosca in May and who then became -- and the prison

11     warden person?

12        A.   No.  I was merely asked whether I knew both of them and whether I

13     knew who was the warden and who was Brano Vlaco who worked in the CSB,

14     and that I know.  And as for the rest, the list, this is the first time

15     that I see this list.  And I cannot tell you which one is Brano Vlaco

16     under number 63.  I cannot say it's this one or that one.  I really

17     cannot say that.  If there were only two of them, it would be simpler,

18     but who knows?

19        Q.   Well, I want to ask you to look, please, at one final document?

20             MS. KORNER:  Which, please, is at tab 6B, 20199.

21        Q.   This is a handwritten record of effectively another intercept

22     again.  It's a conversation on the 30th of June and it's recorded as a

23     Branko Vlaco phoning from the Damjan --

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have to object.  This document is -- does not

25     have the audio file at all.  This is just a document which we don't know

Page 22677

 1     the authenticity, we don't know who created it, and therefore it's not

 2     reliable for -- I mean, Ms. Korner is entitled to ask the question, but

 3     she cannot use this document, I believe.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, I can hardly ask the question without using

 5     the document.  Your Honours, we are back to the intercept question again.

 6     This one -- can we just ...

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, it's very simple.  The point of the

 8     matter is that Ms. Korner cannot state that this is a transcript of

 9     conversation of one person to the other person.  There is no audio file.

10     We don't know who said this is person Slobodan Zecevic or some other

11     person.

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, this is, as I said, we're back to

13     the -- the witness may take his headphones off, I suppose, again.

14             If I can't rely, on, Your Honours, the name, the names that are

15     given here, then it's absolutely pointless -- I mean, I can, I suppose,

16     to a certain extent part of the conversation will make it clear that it's

17     to do with these events, but it's absolutely pointless trying to use this

18     document.  And, as I say, in fact, I don't think -- this is not,

19     definitely not one of the documents that Your Honours admitted, as I say,

20     but it's part that -- Your Honours may recall that some of the intercept

21     material was, in fact, handwritten records of conversations as opposed to

22     audio files.

23             JUDGE HALL:  But having regard for the reasons that Mr. Zecevic

24     has given, I'm at a loss to see what use you can make of this document at

25     this stage, if at all.

Page 22678

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, why can't I use it?  It's a

 2     record of an intercept.  The fact that I can't call -- the fact that I

 3     can't call the maker doesn't go to whether it's admissible or whether I

 4     can use it to ask questions about it.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the whole point is:  How can

 6     Ms. Korner say this is a record of an intercept.  How?  I mean, based on

 7     what?  This is a document, handwritten document.  We don't know the

 8     author.  We don't know the authenticity.  And there's no audio file.  It

 9     cannot be said this is a record of the intercept of a conversation of two

10     persons or more.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we see the second page.

12             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that's the last one.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I see if I can ask some questions

15     about it and let's see where we go with that, about the content.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, without specifically referring to the document.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Mr. -- oh, put your headphones back on.

19             Mr. Tusevljak, do you recognise a number, telephone number, I

20     think, 467-60 -- 680.

21        A.   No, I can't remember this number.  I don't know.  I'm not in a

22     habit of remembering phone numbers.  I don't know the number.  Number 4,

23     well, it could be Ilidza.  I think that maybe Ilidza used to be number 4.

24     I think that phone numbers at Ilidza used to begin with number 4 before

25     the war.

Page 22679

 1        Q.   Right.  Was there a problem in June of -- towards the end of June

 2     of there being a crime spree, as it were, where property was being robbed

 3     and broken into or broken into and robbed?

 4        A.   Yes.  I think that in all the reports that we filed at the time

 5     we mentioned this issue.

 6        Q.   All right.  And do you know whether the Vlaco who later became

 7     the commander of the police station in October knew Mr. Cvijetic?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  They probably knew each other in 1992.

 9     Whether they knew each other before that, I don't know, and I don't know

10     when they met.

11        Q.   Are you aware, though, that Mr. Cvijetic sent people to Vogosca

12     on the 3rd of July to look at the crime situation?

13        A.   I think that we have the report written by the operatives who

14     went to Vogosca and then were chased away.  That's what you are talking

15     about, aren't you?

16        Q.   That was Mr. Cvijetic sending people down to Vogosca; is that

17     right?

18        A.   He was the chief of the centre.  He could decide when somebody

19     would be sent to a police station.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, in the light of what

22     Your Honours rule, I don't think I can take it any further than that.  I

23     don't know that it adds much to it because although the content is, to a

24     certain extent, supported, without the names of the people who are

25     speaking, it's meaningless.

Page 22680

 1             So Your Honours are not going to resile from my request to

 2     have -- to be able to put the speakers to him?  I'm not going to --

 3     sorry, resile from the denial of my request based on Mr. Zecevic's

 4     objection?

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  If I understand you correctly, Ms. Korner, to the

 7     extent that a formal answer is required, the Chamber's of the view that

 8     you can't use this document any further.

 9             MS. KORNER:  All right.

10        Q.   Then, finally, on Vogosca, please, can we look, please, at

11     document 20204, tab 8A.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Should you take the break now or is this --

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'd rather, if I may, I want to

14     complete Vogosca and then go on towards, effectively, my last topic.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Very good.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, is this still on the Vlaco/Vlaco

17     issue?

18             MS. KORNER:  No, this is in the connection of the police with the

19     prison.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I had one question -- I don't know whether -- has

21     the witness been asked simply whether he knows of the prison -- that

22     the prison -- whether he knows or not that the prison warden was a member

23     of the MUP before becoming prison warden?  Just simply and bluntly the

24     question.

25             MS. KORNER:  I don't think -- Your Honour is quite right, I don't

Page 22681

 1     think he has.

 2        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, do you know whether the man who was the prison

 3     warden and who later definitely was part of the Vogosca SJB, as

 4     commander, do you know whether he was in the police before he was a

 5     warden?

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In the police at Vogosca, that is.

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   Yes, as a reserve police officer in Vogosca.  Do you know whether

 9     he was or wasn't?

10        A.   I don't know whether he was.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   Right.  Can we look, please --

14             MS. KORNER:  Have we got up 8A?  Yes.

15        Q.   This is one of a series of documents.  Were you aware that

16     authorised officials of the Vogosca SJB on the 7th of July, 1992, brought

17     in two people to Mr. Vlaco, as the prison warden, two Muslims, it would

18     appear?

19        A.   No, this is the first time that I see this bulletin.

20        Q.   Well, all right.  Were you aware in general terms from being

21     chief of the crime police at the CSB that in Vogosca members of the SJB

22     were bringing in non-Serbs to the custody of Mr. Vlaco's prison?

23        A.   At the time I knew that there was some sort of a prison there.

24     Here we see that these persons were suspected of hiding members of the

25     TO.  So I don't know exactly within whose jurisdiction that was, but I

Page 22682

 1     have to say that I knew nothing about this particular case.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at 955D1, which is a

 3     65 ter number, and it's at tab 16A of the bundle -- of our bundle.

 4        Q.   Around about the same time, 27th of July, a Mr. Nijaz Suko was

 5     taken from Vogosca by the state security, a member of state security.

 6     Mr. Rifet Durak also taken from the Vogosca by an authorised official of

 7     the Ilijas SJB.  And Mr. Rasim Muharemovic was taken from the Vogosca

 8     prison on the same day by the prison warden for the purposes of exchange.

 9             Now, first of all, were you aware that not only Vogosca was

10     bringing them there, but other SJBs and indeed state security appear to

11     have been taking people out of this prison?

12        A.   I cannot see anything like that here.  I'm not sure whether they

13     were bringing people in.  Is some people were brought in, then they must

14     have been people from whom it would have been established that they were

15     members of enemy formations.  However, here I see that this is the person

16     belonging to the state security, and I have to tell you that I never

17     received any sort of information from the state security.

18        Q.   Yes, but were you being given information that apparently

19     prisoners, first of all, were being taken from the prison by other SJBs,

20     in this case Ilijas?

21        A.   No, we in the centre were never informed about these activities.

22     You can see that clearly from our documents.  Nobody informed us about

23     these activities.

24        Q.   Were you aware that prisoners were being used -- non-Serbs were

25     being used to -- as parts of exchanges with the other side?

Page 22683

 1        A.   I know that there were exchanges all the time.  Serbs were

 2     exchanged for Bosniaks and the other way around, but this was done by

 3     some municipal committees, Crisis Staffs, and others.

 4        Q.   Weren't, in fact, people like this Rasim Muharemovic actually

 5     being carted off to prison in order to be used for exchanges; isn't that

 6     what was happening?

 7        A.   That's what we can see from this bulletin.

 8        Q.   Yes, no, I don't think you quite understood what I was putting to

 9     you.  I'm suggesting to you, Mr. Tusevljak, that these were civilians who

10     had done nothing, who were being taken off to prison purely and simply so

11     that they could be used as exchanges, for exchange purposes.  Was that

12     something you knew of?

13        A.   No, I can't say that.

14             MS. KORNER:  And finally can we just, very quickly, and that is

15     on Vogosca, look at 958D1, 28B.

16        Q.   25th of August, again Mr. Vlaco reporting.  Members of the Ilijas

17     SJB arrested three Muslims.  Kept in detention for interview.  "Twenty

18     men were taken from prison to perform manual work for the

19     Vogosca Brigade."

20             Are you aware of any provision in the law that allows prisoners

21     to be taken off to do manual work for the army?

22        A.   No.  That runs counter to any convention that I'm aware of.

23        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's -- I think this one's already

25     an exhibit.  Isn't it?  What's 958D1?  Well, Your Honours, may I ask the

Page 22684

 1     last document be made -- is it not an exhibit?  It's certainly a Defence

 2     document.  It's not?

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have -- if that is the case, can we have

 4     both documents, the previous one 955 and 958, exhibited.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Certainly, Your Honours, yes, can we have all three

 6     exhibited.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

12             MS. KORNER:  And all three are to be exhibited.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Then 65 ter 20204 shall be given

14     Exhibit P2367.  955D1 is Exhibit P2368.  And 958D1 is P2369.  Thank you.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's all I ask on that.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Coming back to the matter to which we referred at

18     the very beginning about the possible start of the Zupljanin Defence

19     before the Stanisic Defence would have closed, perhaps counsel could,

20     during the break, consult and agree a date when we can formally convene,

21     in advance of the 11th of July, to make any orders, any consequential

22     orders, as are necessary to facilitate that.

23             So we take the 20-minute break now.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

Page 22685

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in the break we've discussed the

 3     question of timing for discussions and all counsel agreed Monday would be

 4     a suitable date, if Your Honours are happy with that, this Monday, when,

 5     by which time, Mr. Zecevic ought to have perhaps more information about

 6     Mr. Macar.

 7             Your Honours, secondly, during the break I was given information

 8     that there was a video that we had, which has not been disclosed before.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One --

10             MS. KORNER:  Oh, sorry.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Instead of Monday, we think the Tuesday may,

13     perhaps, be more convenient for everyone concerned.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we're happy with that.  Yes, I see the

15     Defence nodding.

16             Your Honours, I was just about to say that during the break I was

17     given information that there was a video which actually showed the Brano,

18     whichever, the Vlaco - whether it's Branislav, Branko, whatever, Brane -

19     who was the prison warden.  I've shown it to Mr. Zecevic and he's happy

20     for me to show it to the witness just to make sure that this is the

21     prison warden we're talking about, however it's fairly obvious it is.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And is that of any assistance?

23             MS. KORNER:  No, I don't think it is.  But Mr. Zecevic says he

24     may as well say this is the Vlaco that was the prison warden.  It's got

25     the 65 ter number, now, 20215, and its number was V-- ERN number was

Page 22686

 1     V000-5710 and we'll give the Defence a full copy at a later date or at

 2     the end of today.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I'm just going to ask you to look at a short

 6     video-clip for the time being, which is 20215, and I just want you to

 7     tell us whether you recognise this man.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. KORNER:  Stop.  Stop.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's Brane Vlaco who was the

11     prison warden.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, can you repeat his first name again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brane Vlaco, or Branko Vlaco, which

14     I later heard he was called.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now, which is it, Brane or Branko?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branko Vlaco.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   You called him Brane, is Brane a short form or could be a

20     nickname, all these Bs, of Branko?  Is that how you knew him, Brane?

21        A.   They called him Brane, but his name is Branko.  I explained

22     earlier on about this being a nickname.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask, for the moment, this be

25     marked for identification only.  There's more on this video, and, as I

Page 22687

 1     say, this all came up rather suddenly on the break and I want to look at

 2     it and it may be we can deal with it with another witness, and equally

 3     the Defence may want to deal with it, so could it just be marked for

 4     identification.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2370 marked for identification,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I want to move to a different topic, please, and

10     that's the question of --

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry, just that we have the P number

12     because it wasn't recorded, for the previous --

13             MS. KORNER:  Could the Registrar please repeat the P number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2370.

15             MS. KORNER:

16        Q.   I want to move to the topic of prosecutions.  You were shown by

17     the Defence a document which has got the 65 ter number 385.  It's

18     document 25 in our bundle, but it's also in the Defence bundle, I think.

19     It's not 385; it's got a D number now.  It was one of ours.  Just a

20     moment.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's 1D188.

22             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  And it's tab 20 in the witness's binder.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   When you were shown this, Mr. Tusevljak, by Mr. Zecevic, you

Page 22688

 1     agreed that this was one of your reports, even though it's undated and

 2     unsigned, and established that it must have been sometime after the

 3     25th of August because of something that's said.  Do you remember?

 4        A.   I think there was no interpretation.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  And that's why the witness is not responding.

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   Right.  Is there a problem with the interpretation, please?  The

 8     witness says he didn't get any, nor did I, actually.

 9             Did you hear that?

10        A.   Yes, I hear it now.

11        Q.   Right.  This document, do you remember, you were asked about by

12     Mr. Zecevic, it's between pages 22294 and -7 of the transcript, and you

13     said although this report is not signed nor dated, it's clearly one of

14     your reports submitted to, presumably, Mr. Cvijetic; do you remember

15     that?

16        A.   Yes.  This is a report from the centre area.

17             MS. KORNER:  Now, can we go, please, in English to the second --

18     sorry, third page, and in B/C/S I think it's the second page.  Yes, it

19     is.

20        Q.   We see, at the top, "Sarajevo CSB.  Three reports were submitted

21     for which two were for war crimes against the civilian population."  And

22     I'll come back to those reports later.  Then no information about crimes

23     recorded in Stari Grad, et cetera.  Then on the 25th of August, 1992,

24     that's why I say this report is obviously after that, there's a complaint

25     that the centre received an incorrect memo.  And you then go on, or

Page 22689

 1     whoever wrote this report:

 2             "Taking into consideration the information we have about the

 3     non-functioning of the courts and prosecutors' offices on the territories

 4     of the municipalities of Bratunac, Skelani, Zvornik, Sekovici, Vlasenica,

 5     Ilijas, et cetera, we could have acted in a similar manner."

 6             Now, I want you just, please, to have a look at two of the

 7     prosecutor's log-books, the KT books for two of the areas you mentioned.

 8             MS. KORNER:  First of all, could we have up the Zvornik book,

 9     which is 65 ter 1555.  And it's at tab 55 of our bundle.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  While we are waiting for the document on the

11     screen, Your Honours, I note that there is an interpretation, I think,

12     mistake because just as Ms. Korner read the part of the document, it said

13     that they received on the 25th of August from the Ministry of Justice a

14     document or said document which they find incorrect.  However, the

15     Serbian word in the original document is "nekorektno," which has a

16     slightly different meaning.  Perhaps the interpreters can help us.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can -- can -- would the best thing would be if the

18     witness reads just that line on the twenty -- from "on the 25th of

19     August, 1992"?

20        Q.   Can you just read out what is written until the words "Ministry

21     of Justice."

22        A.   "On the 25th of August, 1992, the centre received the letter from

23     the Ministry of Justice number 01-183 dated the 19th of August, 1992,

24     which we assess to be very" --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This could either mean

Page 22690

 1     unfair or disrespectful, or inaccurate/incorrect, depending on the

 2     context.

 3             MS. KORNER:

 4        Q.   I'm sorry, you can stop.  That's all we needed.  Thank you.

 5             Well, I -- perhaps the best thing is to ask you.  We don't want

 6     details of the memo because it's not relevant, but do you remember what

 7     memo this was about?

 8        A.   I really can't remember.  It would be impossible for me to

 9     remember.

10        Q.   All right.  Don't worry.  Right, you've got the Zvornik KT book.

11     And I think it's probably easier for you to look at the print-out that

12     we've got.

13             MS. KORNER:  And if we can go, on the screen, please, to 0 -- the

14     number at the top should read 0504-9739.  If the usher could ... could we

15     go, on e-court, please, to that page.  Can we just highlight the column.

16     Yes, the third column down.

17        Q.   Does that show that the prosecutor's office in Zvornik was

18     receiving at least a report by the 6th of May on that page ... if we can

19     highlight, I think it's --

20        A.   Yes, you can see that the public security station filed the

21     reports.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. KORNER:  Can I have that back, please.  Now could we have up

24     the Vlasenica KT book, which is P1446, tab 54 of our bundle.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say something.  Now that

Page 22691

 1     I'm looking at this, I would like to interpret something here.  The

 2     6th of May, that's when the criminal report was filed by the CSB.  If you

 3     look at the continuation, the 6th of March, 1998, was the day the

 4     prosecutor first started on this report and forwarded the case file to

 5     Novi Sad.

 6             The next report, again, for the first time the prosecutor acts on

 7     the previous report on the 19th of October, 1992, and then on the 28th of

 8     June, 1993, was the next time.

 9             Next report, the first time the prosecutor follows this up is on

10     the 12th of August, 1992, and next time after that, the

11     15th of July, 1994.

12             Next report, the date is the 29th of June, again the prosecutor

13     takes it up on this date stated here and then the 6th of May after that.

14             So that's what I'm talking about.  This shows you what the

15     prosecutor's office does and how long it takes them to start doing

16     something about a report previously filed by this station.  That was the

17     problem.  It's not that no one was there in the prosecutor's office.

18             My apologies, I'm just looking at this material.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   That's fine.  I accept entirely that's what it shows.  And, I'm

21     sorry, in that case I understand you to be saying there were no

22     prosecutor's office operating, but you're saying just that they didn't do

23     anything when they got the reports; is that right?

24        A.   We are talking about one of my reports, the non-functioning.  I'm

25     not sure what the interpretation was that you got.  The report that you

Page 22692

 1     were showing, our report, shows at page 1 how many criminal reports were

 2     filed by each of the police stations.  It's clearly reflected there.

 3     Filed or submitted to someone, obviously.  At the end of the report we

 4     clearly state that the reports being filed by us are not being followed

 5     through, were not being followed through, and there was a problem

 6     obviously.  And there were perpetrators there that no measures were being

 7     taken against.

 8             You saw that case of rape from Bratunac that we discussed --

 9        Q.   No, don't, please, go on.  I understand what you're saying very

10     clearly.  You're saying you put the reports in, there was a prosecutor's

11     office, but the prosecutor's office did nothing?

12             You have to say yes or no.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that, although -- I'm not going to

16     bother with the next document now, then, because in the light of this

17     answer, but the Vlasenica KT book has not -- sorry, the Zvornik KT book

18     has not yet received an exhibit number.  It's got the 65 ter number 1555.

19     It's all that's been disclosed, and I ask that now, that now that be

20     admitted and exhibited.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we had the number of witnesses

22     from Zvornik including the OTP witness who is -- who was a prosecutor in

23     Zvornik, and it wasn't exhibited then.  This qualifies as fresh evidence

24     absolutely, in my opinion.  And just for -- just because of the principle

25     I object because it's a fresh evidence, otherwise I don't have an

Page 22693

 1     objection.  And maybe what I suggest is that we MFI it and then I discuss

 2     with Ms. Korner and we might stipulate to that document.  Thank you.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, can I say that the reason it's

 4     come up again is because of this report which the Defence, in fact,

 5     produced through this witness and which might have led somebody to

 6     believe that it was saying that there was no prosecutor's office

 7     operating.  A number of the books are exhibited.  I think, again, it was

 8     a question of trying to keep the documents limited.  But I'm perfectly

 9     prepared to say at this stage let's just MFI it, and if Mr. Zecevic wants

10     to discuss it then we'll see where we go.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, can you remind me the tab number,

12     please.

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes, it is at tab 55 of our documents.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  So we adopt counsel's suggestion and we mark it for

16     identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2371 marked for identification,

18     Your Honours.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   All right.  I now want to look with you, leading on from

21     prosecutions to the topic, please, of prosecutions for war crimes and

22     look at this chronologically.

23             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up first on the screen, please, P173,

24     which is, sorry, at tab 4 of our binder.

25             Actually, Your Honours, sorry, before we move on to that,

Page 22694

 1     although -- the last document, although the Defence showed it to this

 2     witness, that's the document that led to all this, the report, it was

 3     never actually exhibited.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  1D188.  It is.

 5             MS. KORNER:  It was, is it?

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, it was exhibited before.  It was just shown to

 7     the witness.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Right.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's Exhibit 1D188.

10             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

11        Q.   Right.  Now, this document, Mr. Tusevljak, I take it you've seen

12     that one before?

13        A.   This document went to the chiefs of the centres, specifically,

14     I'm not sure I've seen it before, the 16th of May.  I still wasn't with

15     the Security Services Centre formally at the time, but I can have a look

16     if you'd like me to.

17        Q.   All right.  Just have a look and see if Mr. Cvijetic at any time

18     discussed with you this order.  Just the first paragraph is all that I'm

19     concerned about.  And the fourth.

20        A.   No, he did not speak to me.

21        Q.   All right.  So are you saying you were unaware that Mr. Stanisic

22     on the 16th of May had issued an order that documentation should be

23     collected on the crimes against the Serbian population for the purposes

24     of prosecution and to accurately inform the local and international

25     public?

Page 22695

 1             MS. KORNER:  And if we go, please, to item number IV on page 3 in

 2     English and the second page in B/C/S.

 3        Q.   "Measures and activities conducted to document war crimes.  These

 4     activities must involve collection of information and documents on war

 5     crimes against Serbs.  This implies conducting an on-site investigation,"

 6     et cetera.

 7             Did Mr. Cvijetic, without telling you that this was an order from

 8     Mr. Stanisic, ever tell you that one of the tasks was this question of

 9     documenting war crimes against Serbs?

10        A.   There is another order, I don't know from which month, which

11     states that we should collect crimes committed against Serbs and all

12     other crimes.  And then in July we even distributed the instructions on

13     the procedure.  Later on they were accompanied with forms to be filled

14     in.  I don't know exactly what was the designation of the forms.  But on

15     the 16th of May, the crime prevention police did not really exist within

16     the Security Services Centre.  They physically did not exist.  So I

17     wouldn't know whether this was forwarded to other police stations,

18     whether we can maybe see it from the stamp denoting the distributions in

19     the communications centre.

20        Q.   Don't worry about that.  And, yes, we've seen the other orders

21     that you're talking about.

22             As I understand what you're saying about this, in summary, is

23     that you were collecting information from Serbs who were fleeing areas

24     that came under the control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or the

25     TO, in order to launch prosecutions because in those areas there would be

Page 22696

 1     no prosecutions for crimes against Serbs.  Is that a fair summary?

 2        A.   Well, we, first of all, collected information on crimes

 3     committed.  However, there were very, very few criminal investigations

 4     instigated.  The information that we collected was normally forwarded to

 5     the prosecutor's office.

 6        Q.   No, I think you misunderstand.  The -- as I understood what you

 7     were saying, the concentration that is displayed by some of the documents

 8     on collecting information about war crimes committed against Serbs, you

 9     say, is because the areas in which Serbs were being the victims, which

10     were under the control of the Army of BiH or the TO, there would be no

11     prosecutions there; is that right?

12        A.   As far as I know, yes.

13        Q.   And that you personally yourselves in the areas which were under

14     Serb control did not discriminate at all in the criminal charges that you

15     filed or brought; is that right?

16        A.   In cases we were informed that the crime had been committed, that

17     the corpse was found, belonging to a Bosniak, a Serb, or a Croat, then

18     the forensics would go out on site, on authorisation by the investigative

19     judge, and then there would be an on-site investigation, documents would

20     have been gathered --

21        Q.   Stop, Mr. Tusevljak.  You told us all this.  It's a simple

22     question:  Your evidence is to the effect that you didn't discriminate,

23     did you?  That's what you're saying?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Right.  Well, let's just have a look at some of the

Page 22697

 1     documents, shall we, please.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can we have a look, please, at 20169, which is

 3     document number 5 in our bundle.

 4        Q.   This is a criminal report dated the 14th of June, and handwritten

 5     at the top is "received in the public prosecutor's office on the

 6     23rd of June."  And this is the Sarajevo one temporarily in Sokolac.

 7     It's a criminal report filed against five people; is that right,

 8     Mr. Tusevljak?

 9        A.   That's what you can see from the criminal report itself.

10        Q.   Right.  And it refers to, obviously, would you agree, Muslims?

11        A.   Yes, you can see that when you look at the names.

12        Q.   And it refers to the offence is slaughtering, brutally killed by

13     torturing and slaughtering, eight Serbian civilians in Gorazde, or from

14     Gorazde?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. KORNER:  And then if we go, please, in English to the second

17     page.

18        Q.   And does this show that the allegation or the suggestion, given

19     that the prosecutor decides, from Mr. Cvijetic who signed this -- well,

20     I'll tell you in a minute.  The allegation of the crime is a war crime

21     against the civilian population under Article 142 of the Criminal Code of

22     the SFRY?

23        A.   Yes, but I can't see the second page in my language.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Now let's go to the second page in your

25     language.

Page 22698

 1        Q.   And you'll see it's actually signed, type-signed, for

 2     Mr. Cvijetic.

 3        A.   Yes, but his signature is not here, which means that this could

 4     probably be the draft version of this document.  And I have to say one

 5     other thing --

 6        Q.   Just stop.  No, no, Mr. Tusevljak, let's stick with the draft.

 7             At the bottom is written, in handwriting, "a copy was delivered

 8     to the Sokolac prosecutor's OJT on the 30th of November as supplementary

 9     information to the criminal report"; correct?

10             And if we go back to the first page for you ...

11             MS. KORNER:  Go back to the first page in B/C/S, please, and in

12     English.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here on the second page you can see

14     another piece of handwriting and from that you can see that this copy was

15     re-sent in 1993 because it had been lost somewhere.  It was re-sent in

16     November 1993.  So this means that the whole case file was re-sent.

17     That's one thing.

18             Another thing, this criminal report, and I know that because of

19     the job that I'm doing, has not been processed to this very day.  There

20     are videos from the then television showing the boy who was killed and

21     you can see that he was slaughtered.  His throat was slit.  And then,

22     listen, you just have to take a look at the ages of the people mentioned

23     here.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, stop, please.  I'm not interested in, for these

Page 22699

 1     purposes - as I say, if Mr. Zecevic is, he can re-examine on it - as to

 2     what's happened to it since.  I'm asking you whether this report -- and

 3     if you look at the top, it says "received at the public prosecutor's

 4     office on the 23rd of June, 1992," and there's a signature,

 5     Milana Mijatovic.  Do you agree?

 6        A.   I can see that somebody wrote this, but there is no incoming

 7     stamp.  There is a stamp in the prosecutor's office of rectangular shape

 8     which states received on such and such a date.  These things are not

 9     handwritten.

10        Q.   All right.

11        A.   Somebody merely stated this, but this is not it.

12        Q.   All right.  However, as you tell us you're familiar with the case

13     from your present job, it's clear, is it, that this report, whether it

14     had to be re-filed in 1993, was a report sent up by Mr. Cvijetic?

15        A.   Yes, that's clear.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be, please, admitted and

17     marked.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't have any objection to this.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2372, Your Honours.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   And would you further agree that when you were referring in

23     this -- the document that we looked at earlier to three reports

24     submitted, two were for war crimes, one of the reports must have been

25     this one?

Page 22700

 1             Mr. Tusevljak, when you referred in that report drafted sometime

 2     after the 25th of August to the Sarajevo area, you said that -- sorry,

 3     the report said, not you personally, three reports were submitted, two

 4     for war crimes.  Do you agree this must have been one of them?

 5        A.   I assume so.  I suppose so.

 6             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Next let's go, please, to document which

 7     is P275 at tab 6.

 8        Q.   This is the record of the minutes of the Presidency on the

 9     17th of June, 1992, item number 3, that the government draft decision on

10     the establishment of a state documentation centre which will gather all

11     genuine documents on crimes committed against the Serbian people during

12     this war.

13             Were you aware of this at the time, Mr. Tusevljak, of this

14     decision?  It's either yes or no, please.

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   However, is that the documentation centre which you now work for

17     or run?

18        A.   No.  No.

19        Q.   All right.

20             MS. KORNER:  Next, please, can we look at the 11th of July

21     meeting in Belgrade, which you've already commented on.  That is P160.

22     We've got it in as number 7, and I can't remember, I'm afraid, what

23     number it was in the Defence binder which you've got.  It's document 153

24     if you want it on -- look at it in hard copy.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's document 153 in our binder.

Page 22701

 1             MS. KORNER:  I just said that.  Yeah.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I was trying to find it.

 3             MS. KORNER:  It's okay.  Can we go, please, in English to page 19

 4     and in B/C/S to page 18.  Actually, I think it's -- sorry, it's starts at

 5     17 in B/C/S.  Yes, that's right.  That's the one.  No, that's fine,

 6     sorry, that was the one I wanted.  No.  What page is that?  It's 1866 --

 7     sorry, no, it should say 1867 on the top.  So it's obviously three pages

 8     on from the B/C/S version, please.  Yeah.  No, can we go, sorry, page 19

 9     in English.  So it's the page before, in English.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, the assistant minister for crime affairs, spoke,

11     before we get to you, and at the end he is talking about the document --

12     obviously I've got a slightly different version here.  All right.

13             "Our priority is to document war crimes (on-site investigations,

14     taking photographs, expert analysis, medical reports), and we also need

15     to make lists of war criminals and distribute them to the centres."

16             Then Mr. Kljajic spoke and then you spoke, Mr. Tusevljak; is that

17     right?

18             MS. KORNER:  And can we go, in English, over the page, please,

19     and also in B/C/S to the next page.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But ...

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   You said, Mr. Tusevljak, this:

23             "War crimes are documented even if they are committed by Serbs."

24             I want to know why you used the word "even."

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry --

Page 22702

 1             MS. KORNER:  Don't tell me it's not the right word.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I don't see.  Either in English text I

 3     couldn't find the word "even."

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, that's my English.  Okay.

 5        Q.   Could you read --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  "War crimes committed by Serbs --

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, no, no.  Yes.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- are also documented."

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Not "even."

11             MS. KORNER:  All right.  All right.  I'm sorry, yes, for some

12     unknown reason I've got a different translation in my binder.

13        Q.   Why was it necessary -- it makes no odds actually to the question

14     I want to ask.

15             Mr. Tusevljak, why was it necessary to say that war crimes

16     committed by Serbs are also documented?  Was it because that it was clear

17     what was being talked about was it was war crimes committed against

18     non-Serbs [sic]?

19        A.   It's quite clear.  I can read it all if necessary.  I think it

20     would make things much clearer to the Trial Chamber.

21        Q.   Don't read it all.  I want to know why you were saying --

22     Mr. Planojevic had talked about it just before you and then Mr. Kljajic

23     spoke, saying that documenting of war crimes is a priority.  Why did you

24     feel it necessary to say that war crimes committed by Serbs are also

25     documented?

Page 22703

 1        A.   I said that they are being documented, not that they ought to be

 2     documented.

 3        Q.   No, I understand that.  What I'm asking you is why -- if it was

 4     always understood that it didn't matter who was the victim of a crime or

 5     who had committed the crime, blind justice as it were, why did you feel

 6     it necessary to say "war crimes committed by Serbs are also documented"?

 7     A. We are talking about 1992.  This is just a summary of what I said and

 8     it had been taken out of context.  Whoever wrote this report only briefly

 9     summarised my words.  Whatever else I said, I cannot remember right now

10     because of the time distance, however, I do know, based on the

11     information I have seen up until now, that public security stations

12     carried out on-site investigations whenever it was possible for them,

13     even when the crimes were committed by Serbs. 

14       I am sorry that we do not have now the registers from some other police

15     stations, or daily logbooks, where one could see that. But it is obvious

16     that at that point in time we had some additional documentation about

17     cases where Serbs had been involved in crime, and if notified, the police

18     went or…crime investigation police if it existed, and if it was possible

19     to go to the site of the event, they would do an on-site investigation.

20     MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, can the witness be instructed to speak

21     more slowly because half of his answer was not recorded and he was

22    mentioning at least two times the crimes committed by Serbs and it was not

23     recorded in the transcript and that was precisely what your question was.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps he can repeat his answer.

25             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Not at length, please,

Page 22704

 1     Your Honours.  You know, I definitely want to finish Mr. Tusevljak today.

 2        Q.   If Mr. --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... has a note, because

 5     otherwise we could be here forever and ever on this, all the stuff he

 6     says is not being registered, and he could ask about it in

 7     re-examination.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Oh, God.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, it's okay, I heard what you had to say and

11     I'm perfectly fine that we ask that the tape be heard and that we have

12     the -- his answer on the -- the revision of the transcript, yes.

13             MS. KORNER:  Right.  I'm content with that, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Korner, while we are at it, at page 48,

15     line 23, you are saying -- you are asking:

16             "Mr. Tusevljak, why was it necessary to say that war crimes

17     committed by Serbs are also documented?  Was it because that it was" --

18     that it was ... just my -- "that it was clear that what was being talked

19     about was that it was war crimes committed against non-Serbs?"

20             You meant Serbs?

21             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I'm now just trying to find the pages.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.  It's 49 -- [Microphone not

24     activated] -- the word non-Serbs is at 49/1.  You said non-Serbs but I

25     think you meant Serbs.

Page 22705

 1             MS. KORNER:  No, sorry, Your Honours, I didn't.  Oh, yes, sorry,

 2     you're quite right, I did mean that.  Thank you.

 3             I really don't think I need to go back over that.

 4        Q.   Let me put the straight question to you, Mr. Tusevljak:  Didn't

 5     you say that?  Didn't you say war crimes are -- war crimes committed by

 6     Serbs are also documented because it was clear to you that the discussion

 7     in the meeting was concentrating on war crimes committed against Serbs?

 8        A.   No, that was not the purpose of my words.

 9        Q.   All right.  And can I just take you back, please, to what you

10     said immediately before that.

11             MS. KORNER:  Which means we have to go back one page in English.

12        Q.   You were giving statistics.  You said:  "In Vlasenica, for

13     example, of the 73 criminal charges, 23 were pressed against Serbs."

14             None of the charges that you were talking about there as against

15     Serbs involved war crimes, did they?  Or, indeed, crimes against

16     non-Serbs?

17        A.   I don't know the exact statistics.  We should take a look at the

18     statistical data.  I think that there were some criminal reports for

19     murders, and murders were considered crimes.

20        Q.   Yes, but not murders of non-Serbs, I'm suggesting.

21             Can we just look at, finally, conclusion number 6 of the meeting.

22             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, which is at page -- and I'm not sure, as I've

23     got a different English version for some reason.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry, Ms. Korner, I wouldn't like to

25     interrupt you, but you made a suggestion.  Perhaps the witness should

Page 22706

 1     answer to your suggestion.  If you are putting your case to the witness,

 2     I think he should be given the opportunity to -- unless it is just a

 3     comment for us.

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, no, it's a question and it's -- wait a minute.

 5        Q.   Do you -- can you recall - I think that's probably the fairest

 6     way of doing it - can you recall now what the facts of those charges were

 7     which were levied against Serbs?

 8        A.   I cannot recall this, but I also cannot claim the opposite.  If

 9     we are talking about murders, I can't say anything until we take a look

10     at the documents, why were people indicted or processed and who exactly

11     were the victims.  If we talk about five murders, we then have to look at

12     the case files of those five murders.  I cannot state with any certainty

13     anything now.  It was back in 1992 and it's quite a long time ago.  So

14     nobody can say, Yeah, we only did this sort of criminal reports or that

15     sort of criminal reports.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we look now, please, at conclusion number 6 of

18     this meeting, which we will find in B/C/S at -- on the page 1 --

19     0324-1873, which should be page 23 at the top.  Yeah.  And in English I

20     haven't the faintest idea because I appeared to have picked up a

21     different version of the translation.  It's the one in e-court.

22        Q.   Now, that conclusion is:

23             "Preventing and documenting war crimes and using all legally

24     prescribed resources and methods for documenting such enemy activity (on

25     site investigations)," et cetera, "and filing criminal reports not only

Page 22707

 1     against identified perpetrators."

 2             Now, doesn't that make it clear by the use of the word "such

 3     enemy activity," words, that what the police are being asked to document

 4     is war crimes committed against Serbs by persons who were considered to

 5     be the enemy?

 6        A.   Documenting such activity by the enemy, it's only in relation to

 7     the enemy.  But there were other dispatches and other conclusions too.

 8        Q.   Yes, but this is the major -- first major meeting of the MUP

 9     senior officials since the split apparently, the discussion of war crimes

10     comes up, and it's clear as -- I'm trying to think of what the right

11     expression is.  But it couldn't be clearer, could it, Mr. Tusevljak, that

12     the discussion was concentrating on war crimes against Serbs?

13        A.   As you can tell by looking at my discussion, I discussed the

14     crimes committed by Serbs.  And this is a conclusion that only addresses

15     enemy activity of the kind, but they are not very specific about what the

16     enemy means, who it is.  There are reports being submitted against both

17     known and unidentified perpetrators here.

18        Q.   Well, you -- I mean, I say you -- the Serbs in Bosnia and the

19     Serb Republic considered the enemy, didn't you, to be what you described

20     as the Green Berets, HOS, the Patriotic League, and the like, who were

21     operating within the Serbian Republic?  You considered them the enemy,

22     didn't you?

23        A.   They were the enemy.

24        Q.   And anybody, effectively, who was a Muslim was described as a

25     member of the Green Berets, weren't they?

Page 22708

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's probably an appropriate moment.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so we take the break, to resume in 20 minutes.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, can I give -- Your Honours, I'm

 6     reminded - I meant to at the last break and then forgot - to give

 7     Mr. Tusevljak the full version of the Muslim from -- the Muslim police

 8     officer from the airport to read, just so he can confirm.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MS. KORNER:  And I think Mr. Zecevic has got an unmarked copy.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while we are waiting for the witness:

15     Mr. Zecevic says he is happy to have the Zvornik -- the Zvornik KT book

16     admitted.  We can lift the MFI.

17             JUDGE HALL:  So we would live the MFI qualification we put on the

18     exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is Exhibit P2371.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One more thing.  On the 16th of June, the

22     Trial Chamber granted in part Stanisic motion filed on the

23     14th of June, 2011, to amend its Rule 65 ter list of exhibits and remains

24     seized of the motion with regard to 12 documents which were then not

25     translated.  The Chamber notes that the documents are now available in

Page 22709

 1     English and would like to ask the Prosecution if it has any objection to

 2     the addition of these documents to the Stanisic's Rule 65 ter

 3     exhibit list.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can we give you the answer tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

 7        Q.   Very briefly --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Before you continue, Ms. Korner, if I may presume to

 9     state the obvious, we expect that, of course, you would complete your

10     cross-examination by the time we rise today at 1.45.

11             MS. KORNER:  Quite right, Your Honours.  I will because I'm not

12     going to be here tomorrow, so I will be completing this

13     cross-examination.  It's what I've been agitating about slightly.

14        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, very quickly, you've just read through the

15     statement of the inspector from the airport.  Do you agree now that it

16     does appear that the JNA moved into the airport on the 5th of April?

17        A.   Yes, but I read the statement and it says that

18     General [as interpreted] Delic's police also stayed at the airport in the

19     police station there until the 12th of April.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, it's recorded "General Delic."  I

22     believe the witness said "Kenan Delic," the statement of Kenan Delic.

23             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I wasn't looking.  Yes, Kenan Delic.  Yes.

24     Thank you.

25             Can we look now, please, at document which is 65 ter 20156.  It's

Page 22710

 1     tab 13.

 2        Q.   This, again, is a criminal report against 18 named people.  Do we

 3     agree that numbers 1 through to 11 of the named people are Muslim and

 4     12 through to 18, Croat?  Or 12 through to 17, I think.

 5        A.   I don't know if one can see this on the screen, but all these

 6     investigations are still in progress.  And the BH prosecutor does not

 7     show these things because this is confidential.  This is still

 8     confidential in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's not a good idea to be showing

 9     this, I think, because the investigations are still in progress.  I do

10     apologise for placing that remark on the record, but that's what it is.

11             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can I ask that it doesn't -- I suppose

12     it's a bit late, but when the video is shown this doesn't go out on the

13     screen.  And I haven't named the people.

14        Q.   Can you just answer my question, Mr. Tusevljak:  Are numbers

15     1 through to 10 -- 11 Muslim?

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I believe also for the

17     previous criminal complaint that we saw, it's P2372, I don't know, maybe

18     it's too late now, but perhaps we can have that also.

19             MS. KORNER:  It probably is too late to redact it.

20        Q.   But thank you, Mr. Tusevljak, for the reminder.

21             Anyway, please, very quickly because I haven't got much time

22     left.  1 to 11 --

23        A.   Yes, I heard that, the answer is yes.

24        Q.   And numbers 12 through to 17/18, are they Croat?

25        A.   I think so, but it's difficult to tell because sometimes Serb

Page 22711

 1     names and Croat names are not too far apart.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry to interrupt, Ms. Korner, but having regard to

 3     what the witness has indicated about the confidentiality of this

 4     material, is a redaction of the question and answer necessary?  Or is it

 5     sufficient for us to have the -- I've been in consultations, as you would

 6     have observed, with the Court Officer, and we just wonder you think it's

 7     necessary.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I don't think I -- did I identify -- I

 9     just said it was a criminal report.  I don't think I -- and I've just

10     gone back to what I said.  So I don't think that that requires to be

11     redacted.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And apparently no further order of the

13     Chamber is necessary.  Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  All right.

15             And can we go, please, to the second page in English and the

16     third page in B/C/S.  Sorry, fourth page in B/C/S.  No, I'm sorry, stay

17     where we are.  Third page in B/C/S and the fourth page in English.  Wrong

18     way around.

19        Q.   It's type-signed Mr. Cvijetic but, in fact, signed on his behalf,

20     and is that your signature?

21        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

22        Q.   And the crime there alleged --

23             MS. KORNER:  We need to go back to -- no, all right.  We're in --

24     okay.  Yeah, in B/C/S, I think, we need to go back to the second page.

25        Q.   Was a war crime against the civilian population; is that right?

Page 22712

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I won't go into the details because

 3     we're not in private session, but I would ask that this be admitted and

 4     marked, please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2373, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Next --

 9        Q.   And just so that we know, this was in July, this report, so would

10     that have been the second report that's referred to in your crime

11     statistics, as it were, that we looked at earlier this morning?

12        A.   Yes, probably so.

13        Q.   Right.

14             MS. KORNER:  Can we move now, please, to document 20171, which is

15     at tab 19 of our bundle.

16             Your Honours, this is the document that I looked at very briefly

17     with Mr. Tusevljak yesterday.  It's a response.  And we'll see there's

18     another document linked with this later.  I'm told by Mr. Zecevic that it

19     wasn't disclosed.  But, as he puts it, he's feeling kindly disposed to me

20     today and so he's not going to object to taking off the MFI.  It was

21     MFI'd as P2362.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we lift the MFI qualification on that.

23             MS. KORNER:  And Your Honours will see why, because there is, as

24     I say, a later-linked document.

25             Now, could we look, please, at document which is 1D188, which is

Page 22713

 1     at tab 25 and was referred to -- no, I've already had that one.  Sorry,

 2     forget that.  That's the one I've already looked at.  Sorry.

 3             Can we look, please, at 2031, tab 30.  No, sorry, I've made a

 4     mistake in my note, I'm told.  Oh, I've left out -- it's 20 -- yes, I've

 5     transposed something.  Sorry, that's not what I want at all.  It's 20173.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's tab 30?

 7             MS. KORNER:  And that's tab 30.

 8        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, is this a telegram -- is it signed by you or

 9     simply going out under your name?

10        A.   It went out under my name.  It's not my handwriting and it's not

11     my signature.

12        Q.   All right.  But the date is the 12th of September.  It's sent

13     from the Security Services Centre.  It says "Everyone"; does that mean it

14     went to all SJBs?

15        A.   It should be to all public security stations under the Security

16     Services Centre, but it's not my signature.  It's not mine.  I didn't

17     write it.  It was one of my people.

18        Q.   So are you saying you are unaware of this telegram that went out

19     under your name, saying, "we urge you to send us as soon as possible the

20     attachments to the report on war crimes and genocide against the Serb

21     people on your territory ..."?

22        A.   Well, these are the RZ and RZ1 questionnaires.  It's probably an

23     urgent matter.  So there had to be a broader, more comprehensive dispatch

24     preceding this one.

25        Q.   Okay, well, there may have been, but are you aware of -- were

Page 22714

 1     you -- all right, let's put it this way:  Were you sending a request to

 2     the SJBs within the AOR of the Sarajevo CSB asking for the questionnaires

 3     to be filled in?

 4        A.   Probably so.

 5             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Your Honours, again, then, may I ask

 6     that it be admitted and marked.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2374, Your Honours.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Can we then have a look, please, at -- sorry, I

10     think it's 142D1, which is at tab 32.

11        Q.   The telegram that's just been admitted, we probably didn't notice

12     it, said number 01-477/92, and this appears to be the response of Zvornik

13     to your telegram or the dispatch -- I think -- I see what you mean,

14     Mr. Tusevljak, you obviously sent an original dispatch with that number

15     and the telegram was sent as a reminder, because we see "with reference

16     to your dispatch of the 12th of September"?

17        A.   Yes, that is probably the case.

18        Q.   And then Zvornik says:

19             "On the 26th of June, 1992, we sent the information on genocide

20     committed against the Serbian population on the territory of the Serbian

21     municipality of Zvornik to the Bijeljina services centre ..."  And this

22     goes back to what we already looked at that you discussed, that they were

23     sending stuff to Bijeljina.  "Considering that you most probably did not

24     receive it, we are sending you the photocopy of this information.  A

25     criminal report" --

Page 22715

 1             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, next page in English.

 2        Q.   "Criminal reports were not submitted against unknown persons, in

 3     other words, Muslim extremists who had committed crimes against the

 4     people listed in the information, because" - interestingly enough -

 5     "crimes against these people were committed during combat activities and

 6     because the military police took their corpses."

 7             Right.  I think this is already an exhibit.  Mr. Tusevljak, you

 8     agree, that's the -- do you remember receiving this response from Zvornik

 9     to your original dispatch?

10        A.   Well, yes, I probably received it.  This is the Security Services

11     Centre.  But the problem with these dispatches, as I pointed out, I can't

12     see the stamp, the one that I've been talking about, the incoming stamp

13     of the Security Services Centre in the upper right-hand corner, but I

14     probably received this, yes.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I didn't want to interrupt the witness's answer.

16     The document is Exhibit 1D594.

17             And Ms. Korner in her question was quoting the document as saying

18     "interestingly enough."

19             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No, I'm sorry, I meant to

20     say -- I'm not now quoting.  That was my own comment --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Ms. Korner, please.

22             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  Mr. Zecevic is quite right.  I interposed

23     that and I shouldn't have, and it was my comment.  The document does not

24     say "interestingly enough."

25             Now can we look, please, next at another response to this, your

Page 22716

 1     questions, please, it is P1072.  Tab 33.  P10 -- thank you.

 2        Q.   This is, again, the response to your original dispatch.  This

 3     time addressed to you personally.  So did you -- do you recall getting

 4     this response from Mr. Djuric?

 5        A.   Yes, probably.  It's all written in the framework of the 01-477

 6     dispatch.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Next, please, can we look at P793, which is at

 9     tab 34.

10        Q.   This is a copy of the report that went up from the CSB centre for

11     the work between July and September of 1992.  We can see at the top it's

12     handwritten Mr. Cvijetic.  And I just want to ask you about one part of

13     this.

14             MS. KORNER:  It's on page 6 in English and page 6 in B/C/S.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Five.

16             MS. KORNER:  Five, sorry, in B/C/S.  Sorry, 5.

17        Q.   And it's the penultimate paragraph.

18             "The documentary material on the genocide against the Serbian

19     people is a separate matter and the sector is putting the maximum effort

20     to ensure this work is carried out and recorded properly."

21             That part of the report would have come from your section,

22     wouldn't it, Mr. Tusevljak?

23        A.   Probably, yes.  We didn't write this.  This is someone from the

24     analytics department of the Security Services Centre.

25        Q.   But the information about that part would have come from your

Page 22717

 1     section; correct?

 2        A.   Probably, based on the dispatches that we sent, 01-477 and things

 3     like that, so what is indicated here is probably based on that.

 4        Q.   Well, I think, because it's October 1992, we'll see that it comes

 5     from you because from looking at the next document, please, which is

 6     20175 and it's at tab 35, it's dated the 6th of October.  It's the

 7     activity report of the CSB crime department for the period July to

 8     September 1992.  In fact, I think it was a document that you were asked

 9     about when you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic case, weren't you?  Do

10     you remember that?

11             This is at page 8052, reference to the transcript.

12        A.   I can't remember specifically, but the report is in front of me

13     and I challenged nothing about it.  This is about the crime prevention

14     measures over these two months.

15        Q.   Exactly.  But in paragraph 2 there's a reference to 18 murders

16     and I think you told the Court then that those were nothing to do with

17     war crimes, they were ordinary murders, if I can use that expression?  Is

18     that right; those are not -- they're nothing to do with any kind of, as

19     it were, inter-ethnic conflict?

20        A.   I don't know.  It's been a long time.  18 murders, one attempted

21     murder.  I can only know what these murders were about if I look at the

22     specific entries.  I don't remember.  It has been a long time.

23        Q.   I understand that, but when you testified in the Milosevic case,

24     which was some four years ago now, or thereabouts, let me just put to you

25     what you said.  Mr. Tapuskovic asked you, and this is at page 8052:

Page 22718

 1             "... you mentioned 18 murders ... can you tell us what kind of

 2     murders ... could you explain this to the Judges, please?

 3             "A.  These were just run-of-the-mill murders," the expression,

 4     that's how it was translated, "that had no ethnic base.  The ethnicity of

 5     the perpetrator or the victim were not a factor, so this was perhaps

 6     caused by some property disputes between the victim and the perpetrator

 7     or some other cause of this nature.

 8             "Q.  If we were to look at it in context of the victims in the

 9     light of their ethnicity, was it possible to draw the distinction -- to

10     distinguish various victims on the basis of their ethnicity?

11             "A.  Well, in most cases the victims were Serbs.  As far as I can

12     recall, there were two murders with the Croats and Muslims as victims ...

13     I think ... the perpetrators were apprehended, prosecuted, and

14     sentenced ...

15             "Q.  And who were the perpetrators in general terms?

16             "A.  Well, for the most part, Serbs were the perpetrators.

17             "Judge Harhoff:  Mr. Witness, are we to conclude that the crimes

18     described in your report were unrelated to the war?

19             "A.  The 18 murders, yes, that's true."

20             So that's what you said then.  Presumably the facts were fresher

21     in your memory.  So do you agree that's probably correct?

22        A.   Probably so.  I did say these things but even then I wasn't able

23     to be really specific.  I think this was about the murders at Ilidza and

24     Vogosca and elsewhere where ethnic Bosniaks were killed.

25        Q.   Well, all right:  Can we just come to what I really want to ask

Page 22719

 1     you about.

 2             MS. KORNER:  It's at, in the English, paragraph 3 up from the

 3     bottom.  Where, as I say, this is obviously the basis of what went into

 4     the report.  In the B/C/S you'll find it on the second page.  B/C/S

 5     page 2.  Thank you.  The paragraph is the third one down on that page.

 6        Q.   "Documenting crimes of genocide and war crimes against the

 7     Serbian people constitutes a separate issue and the sector has undertaken

 8     maximum effort, in spite of great difficulties, to document these crimes

 9     in the proper fashion.  In view of that, seven criminal reports have

10     already been submitted to competent prosecutor's offices against

11     33 persons for whom there are grounds to suspect that they have committed

12     crimes of genocide and war crimes against the Serbian population."

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may this document now be admitted and

14     marked, please.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, was this a question or was it a ...

16             MS. KORNER:  Well, I can ask the question, but he's already said

17     this is his report.

18        Q.   Is that what you put into this report, Mr. Tusevljak?

19        A.   Well, obviously.  The report is ours, the crime prevention

20     department.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, please, admitted and marked.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2375, Your Honours.

25             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Can we now have up on the screen, but not to

Page 22720

 1     be broadcast, please, because it's a criminal report, and it's document

 2     with the number 20178, tab 40.

 3        Q.   This is a document, a report, dated, I think, the

 4     17th of November.

 5             MS. KORNER:  And can we go to page 3 in English, please, and

 6     both -- and in B/C/S.

 7        Q.   This report has gone out under your signature; is that right,

 8     Mr. Tusevljak?

 9        A.   This is a draft.  I don't think I signed it because it was

10     probably renamed into head of the Security Services Centre,

11     Zoran Cvijetic and then he signed it.  He also had the authority to file

12     reports.

13             MS. KORNER:  And if we go, please, to the front page again in

14     both -- yes.

15        Q.   Are the alleged perpetrators here Muslims?

16        A.   Only one that I can see.

17        Q.   So is that the first one that's named?

18        A.   My apologies, both, both are.

19        Q.   And is the suggested classification of the crime - and I say that

20     because I understand the prosecutor can change this - that these two

21     committed a crime against humanity in the Gorazde municipality?  Sorry,

22     the Pale -- sorry, in Pale, not Gorazde.

23        A.   Yes, I would need to see the classification, but I think we are

24     looking at Article 141.

25        Q.   If you look at the bottom of -- maybe, does it not come out in it

Page 22721

 1     B/C/S terribly well?  If you look at the very bottom, I think it comes

 2     out there, of the B/C/S.

 3             MS. KORNER:  No, B/C/S.  The English is fine.  Can we just move

 4     the B/C/S up.

 5        Q.   If you look at the last sentence.

 6        A.   Yes, 141 and -42 of the adopted KZ.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked.

 9        Q.   Is that still an on-going case?

10        A.   Yes, still on-going and not resolved.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, 66/13, I believe the witness said which

12     KZ.

13             MS. KORNER:  Adopted, it says.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but he says adopted KZ of ... so I think

15     that's important.

16             MS. KORNER:  All right.

17        Q.   Can you just tell us, adopted -- repeat, sorry, can you repeat

18     what you said.  You read out what is at the bottom.  Can you just read

19     that out again.

20        A.   I said Article 141 and 142 of the adopted KZ of the SFRY.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  Next, please, could we look at 1D189 -- oh, sorry,

23     Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked.  Sorry.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

25             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

Page 22722

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2376, Your Honours.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Next, please, could we look at document 1D189.

 3     Again not to be shown on the screen because this is the one you raised

 4     originally.

 5             And, Your Honours, maybe we ought to go into private session just

 6     for this document because I want to ask a couple of questions.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22723











11 Pages 22723-22730 redacted. Private session.
















Page 22731

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session Your Honours.

Page 22732

 1             MS. KORNER:  Which is at tab pre - p-r-e - 1B.  Could we go,

 2     please, in that report in English to the -- it's page 12 in the -- no.

 3     Yes, it's page 12.  And in B/C/S to page 13.

 4        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, in your copy, if you go to page 13 at the bottom.

 5             MS. KORNER:  No.  That's page 9 in B/C/S.  Page 13.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   This is the part of the report that deals with your section, is

 7     that right, the crime prevention and detection?

 8        A.   Yes, but at the level of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   I agree.

10             MS. KORNER:  Can we then go, in English, to three pages further

11     on.  It should be page 15 at the bottom, and in B/C/S to page 17 at the

12     bottom.

13        Q.   And the paragraph that says:

14             "In this period criminal inspectors visited all CSBs, SJBs, had

15     meetings where they gave instructions for carrying out concrete operative

16     activities.  The focus of the operative work in the CSBs and SJBs was on

17     detection, documenting, and reporting members of the enemy army who had

18     committed acts of genocide against the Serbian people, torched or

19     destroyed immovable property, cultural, or religious monuments, and other

20     assets."

21             Do you agree that that's an accurate summary of the focus of the

22     operative work of your section in Sarajevo?

23        A.   Well, no, because besides the things are that are mentioned here,

24     they also carried out in other task.  So they were not involved only in

25     processing war crimes.  The important thing here is to look at all the

Page 22733

 1     KU registers.  Everything that I looked through told me that if we had

 2     22 police stations and there were four reports in one year, ten reports

 3     in another year, and then again four reports - I'm talking about criminal

 4     reports for war crimes - and if the total number is around 400 criminal

 5     reports for general crime per year, then we are talking about very small

 6     percentages.  On the other hand, this is a MUP report that I had a chance

 7     to read only now because I did not receive it in 1992 and I could not

 8     read it in 1992.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just for the sake of the clarity of

10     the transcript, 76/18, I believe the P is 625.  It wasn't recorded, the

11     number of the exhibit.

12             MS. KORNER:  Oh, right.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, you had a look through the Sarajevo CSB book, which I gave

14     to you, which only begins, for some reason, in November of 1992, but

15     carries on through till, I think it's 1995; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was there any record of any criminal reports against Serbs for

18     war crimes, however classified, against non-Serbs in that register?

19        A.   Yes.  A murder.  Multiple murder.

20        Q.   Can you tell us where that is, please?  Which number?  Did you

21     make a note?

22        A.   I think I can find it quite easily.

23        Q.   All right.  I'll give you the book back again.

24        A.   I think that there is -- that there are some cases that are still

25     on-going before the courts and prosecutor's offices.  If you want, I can

Page 22734

 1     quote you those names.

 2        Q.   I just want to know if you can tell me that there's a criminal

 3     report --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I think the witness was suggesting that

 5     we go into private session because he wants to --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I see.  Sorry.

 7        Q.   You can just -- no, we needn't go into private session.  You just

 8     tell me the number of the -- the thing and then we needn't mention any

 9     names.  You just tell me the numbers.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can you -- will you call the exhibit on the screen?

11     Because you gave the copy to the witness.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I can.  Sorry.  If I can find my list of

13     exhibits.  It's Exhibit 20188 at tab 56.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Criminal report number 5 from 1994

15     for multiple murders of citizens of Bosniak ethnicity.  There is also a

16     judgement.  The person in question has already served his sentence.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   All right.  Number 5 in 1994; is that right?  And can you just --

19     just tell us:  What's the date, please, of the alleged criminal offence?

20     Is it 1992 or is it later?

21        A.   Later.  It was later.  I can't see the date from this copy when

22     exactly it was committed.

23        Q.   But it wasn't in 1992?

24        A.   Sometime shortly after 1992.  But since this register begins in

25     1992, there are only three or four reports, and that's the gist of the

Page 22735

 1     problem.

 2        Q.   All right.  Are there any -- if I didn't make it clear, are there

 3     any that you saw, even filed later, that relate to crimes committed in

 4     1992 where the perpetrator alleged is a Serb and the victims are

 5     non-Serbs?

 6        A.   Yes, there are some murders.  Criminal reports related to

 7     murders.  Remember, 36 paragraph 2.

 8        Q.   Yes, but we can see that you were charging -- we've just been

 9     through a whole set of criminal reports where the allegation that you

10     sent up, whatever the prosecutor did in the end was out of war crimes.

11     Are there any for war crimes?  Leave aside the murders under section 36.

12        A.   We've just seen the criminal (redacted).

13        Q.   Yes.  Apart from that.

14        A.   I'm not sure, and I cannot speculate whether there were such

15     cases in some other areas.  I'm sure that if we examine their

16     KU registers that we would certainly find some cases.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I think it probably ought to be now

19     properly exhibited, if there's no objection.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, the witness said that just the

21     first three, four are from 1992.  I mean, I don't have a problem that

22     it's exhibited, but it's a lengthy document and without -- without the

23     precise explanation on each and every entry, it doesn't serve us much

24     that we have the 100 pages of a document.  Perhaps first two pages and

25     that should be sufficient.

Page 22736

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, the point I'm making is proving a

 2     negative, if you like.  Can I leave it this way:  Can we mark it for

 3     identification at the moment, and I'll discuss it with Mr. Zecevic.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  In terms of what would eventually comprise the

 5     exhibit?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes, exactly.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Yes.  So it's so marked.

 8             MS. KORNER:  And indeed we may be able to do it by an agreed

 9     statement.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2382 marked for identification,

11     Your Honours.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one intervention in the transcript:

13     Page 80 at 1 it should be recorded as an answer to the witness.  The

14     question was:  "Are there any for war crimes?  Leave aside the murders

15     under section 36."  And then:  "We've just seen (redacted)

16     (redacted).

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  It was the answer, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- from the witness.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yeah.  And it probably ought to be redacted because

20     if you will recall Mr. Tusevljak wanted to deal with that in private

21     session.  So can we redact that.  Just that last.  Once it's properly

22     recorded as an answer, it ought to be redacted.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, let's final this, because I ought to make it clear

Page 22737

 1     to you:  I'm suggesting that it's quite clear -- and I'm not -- I'm not

 2     suggesting this is what you wanted to happen, but it's quite clear that

 3     your clear instructions from your bosses from, I suggest, the minister

 4     downwards was to investigate war crimes against Serbs and effectively not

 5     to bother with the war crimes that were committed against the non-Serbs?

 6     And that's the reality, isn't it?

 7        A.   No.  Investigations were conducted in other cases of crimes, not

 8     only when it's about Serbs.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Mr. -- that's all I ask.

10             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment to tomorrow -- sorry.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we perhaps ask Mr. Zecevic how long re-direct

12     will take?  Just for planning.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I think, Your Honours, one session, perhaps

14     less than that or perhaps a bit more.  But before that, I don't think

15     that the answer was recorded properly, 81/20.  I believe the witness said

16     when the victims were Serbs.

17             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Yes, he did.  Thank you,

18     Mr. Zecevic.

19             Your Honours, may I apologise for --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MS. KORNER:  -- not being able to be here tomorrow.  I have,

22     unfortunately, something I can't get out of, and I didn't want to ask

23     Your Honours to sit late.  And Ms. Pidwell, who's been following this,

24     will take over for re-examination if Your Honours will agree to that.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  To the extent that you need the Court's leave,

Page 22738

 1     you have it, Ms. Korner.

 2             MS. KORNER:  No, I think -- but politely I ought to say that.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

 4             And we are grateful for the interpreters, the court reporter, and

 5     the security and support staff for the additional few minutes that we

 6     would have sat this afternoon.

 7             So we take the adjournment to reconvene tomorrow morning.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day

11                           of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.