Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22739

 1                           Friday, 24 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Belinda Pidwell and

11     Indah Susanti for the Prosecution today.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

14     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic

16     appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And if there is nothing to detain us,

18     may the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Tusevljak, good morning to you.  Again I give

21     you the usual warning as to your solemn declaration before Mr. Zecevic

22     begins his re-examination.

23             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           WITNESS: SIMO TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]

Page 22740

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.

 4             Mr. Tusevljak, at page 22493, the Thursday, your

 5     cross-examination, Ms. Korner read back to you a portion of the

 6     transcript from the Milosevic case; do you remember that?

 7        A.   You'll have to remind me because there's been a lot of talking

 8     since.

 9        Q.   Ms. Korner read back to you a portion of the Milosevic transcript

10     and conveyed to you one of the questions that you were asked during the

11     Milosevic trial.  "Sir" -- during your cross-examination in that case,

12     that means.

13             "Sir, do you remember between 1992 and 1995 any situation in

14     which you carried out an investigation looking into war crimes against

15     members of the SRK which you then passed on to the military prosecutor?"

16             Your answer:

17             "No, not in relation to war crimes, no."

18             And then Ms. Korner went on to ask you if your answer at the time

19     was accurate, which you confirmed.  You remember that, sir, don't you?

20        A.   No, I don't.

21        Q.   Can you just please repeat your answer.  You have to try and

22     enunciate a bit more clearly because the answer reflects you saying no,

23     in the negative.

24        A.   Yes, the answer is yes.  I did answer that to Ms. Korner at the

25     time.

Page 22741

 1        Q.   Sir, my question to you was:  Do you remember this particular

 2     portion of your conversation or exchange with Ms. Korner?

 3        A.   Yes, indeed I do.

 4        Q.   Sir, during your chief and your cross you were shown that

 5     criminal reports against a person named (redacted) issued for a war crime

 6     committed in the Vogosca territory; do you remember that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Was that back in 1992?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was that crime -- that criminal report forwarded to the military

11     prosecutor?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   How is your answer from the Milosevic case to be understood,

14     then, compared to what you are telling us now?

15        A.   If you look at the signature at the foot of that criminal report,

16     you will see that it says Zivko Lazarevic, chief of the Vogosca Public

17     Security Station.  I was asked whether I did that myself and I said no,

18     but quite obviously the Vogosca Public Security Station filed that

19     criminal report.

20        Q.   Thank you for this clarification, sir.

21             At page 22494, the continuation of the previous exchange, you

22     were asked this question by Ms. Korner.  I'll need to read this in

23     English in order not to have to back translate the LiveNote, and you will

24     be receiving interpretation.

25             [English] "All right.  Now, the only question I'm putting to you

Page 22742

 1     at the moment - I'm going to come back to the book - is that the only war

 2     crimes that you actually spent any time investigating properly were those

 3     where Serbs were alleged to be the victims?  So you either agree with

 4     that or you don't agree; that's all it requires."

 5             And your answer:

 6             "No.  And I can give you some examples now.  The reports against

 7     Jadranko Jeberovic [phoen]" - and it has a question mark - "for the

 8     murder of Bosniaks and Croats; a report of Predrag Djurovic, I believe

 9     that's what he was called, for raping a Bosniak woman."

10             And further down:

11             "That's what I can recall at the moment.  These people weren't

12     reported for war crimes, but they were reported for aggravated murder by

13     the police station, not the centre but by the police stations."

14             [Interpretation] Do you remember this portion of your

15     conversation with Ms. Korner?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   You referred to these two specific cases:  Jadranko, I think the

18     last name was misrecorded, and Predrag Djurovic, these two specific

19     cases; what were those in reference to?

20        A.   Those were cases of aggravated murder on the one hand and rape on

21     the other.

22        Q.   Did you personally produce either of these criminal reports?

23        A.   Yes, the former.

24        Q.   When you say the former, which one do you have in mind

25     specifically?  Which person and what event?

Page 22743

 1        A.   Jadranko Dilberovic, the murder of those two persons.

 2             My apologies, I can't follow the transcript over here.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can the usher help because the witness cannot

 4     follow the transcript on his monitor, so ...

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, can you please slowly and articulately tell

 6     us the name of this reported person, the first name, then his last name,

 7     and where the crime occurred.

 8        A.   Jadranko Dilberovic.  The crime occurred at Grbavica.  The

 9     Ministry of the Interior put this person into custody, and criminal

10     charges were brought against this person for aggravated murder,

11     Article 2.

12        Q.   And the victims were?

13        A.   One victim was a Muslim, Bosniak, and the other victim was a

14     Croat.

15        Q.   When did this crime occur?

16        A.   I believe in May 1992, although it has been a long time and I can

17     no longer be certain about the timing.  I think it was right at the

18     beginning of the war, meaning May.

19        Q.   Thank you.  At page 22502, you had another exchange with

20     Ms. Korner about the number of perpetrators, systemisation, organisation

21     of the centre, and such-like.  Do you remember that, sir?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Sir, if you remember, the Sarajevo Public Security Station,

24     within the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, how many

25     public security stations did it number back then?

Page 22744

 1        A.   As far as I remember, 22 public security stations.

 2        Q.   Was there any substantial difference in terms of how each were

 3     organised between the Sarajevo Security Services Centre in the

 4     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Security Services Centre

 5     Sarajevo Romanija-Birac when it was part of the RS MUP?

 6        A.   In terms of the organisation of the actual work and the actual

 7     posts, I don't think there were any differences.  I think the previous

 8     model was simply copied.

 9        Q.   What about the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre

10     of the RS MUP in terms of how it was organised, in terms of its

11     organisational structure, did it include the Sarajevo SUP, the one that

12     covered Sarajevo's municipalities that fell under the RS?

13        A.   No, there was no Sarajevo SUP like that.

14        Q.   Did that fact have any bearing whatsoever on the progress and

15     co-ordination of public security stations throughout Sarajevo territory

16     during the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre's operation?

17        A.   I think that due to the fact that the Sarajevo SUP within the

18     Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre didn't exist our

19     communication was more difficult when we worked with these urban public

20     security stations simply because there was no one mediating and

21     co-ordinating our work.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.  At page 22537 you were asked the following

23     question by Ms. Korner, again in English for the transcript:

24             [In English] "Well, you see, it might be that I misunderstood the

25     tenor of your evidence, Mr. Tusevljak, in which case I'll stop taking you

Page 22745

 1     through this rather tedious exercise of having a look at payrolls.

 2     You're not saying, are you, therefore, that no crime police were

 3     operating anywhere in a Serb-held territories in the Sarajevo area?

 4             "Yes"; that's your answer.

 5             "Yes, if you understand what I mean, if I understood the question

 6     correctly, some stations functioned and in some police station it didn't

 7     function at all."

 8             "Q.  And you don't know one way or the other, do you, which

 9     police station it was functioning in and which it wasn't?"

10             "A.  Well, if you show me the list, I can tell you where

11     operatives existed and where there were no operatives at all.

12             "Q.  Right.  Well, have a look, please," at another document.

13             [Interpretation] Ms. Korner never confronted you with that list

14     following the exchange.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, can the witness please

16     be shown 65 ter 10138.8A.

17        Q.   Sir, you've seen this document before.  It shows the structure of

18     the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre as it was in

19     April through December 1992.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Tab number?

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, it's in the Prosecutor's

22     binder.  If you bear with me, I will --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  That's already helpful to know.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I'll ask you to use a pen --

Page 22746

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this on our

 2     screens.  Thank you.  Well, I'm informed that we are experiencing some

 3     problems with e-court, so perhaps we can return back to this a bit later.

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, does this mean that none of the documents

 6     can be shown to the witness at the moment?

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, inasmuch as the witness has been using

 9     the binders with the hard copies rather than the screen, can't we proceed

10     in that -- along that line?

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm afraid, Your Honours, the witness has

12     only a binder of Defence documents and I'm going to show -- the majority

13     will be the Prosecutor's documents.  But I don't think that the

14     Prosecution has the documents in Serbian; that's the problem.  In their

15     binder, I guess, they have the English version of the documents.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  We do have them in both languages but we only have

17     one copy of each, so if the witness is seeing them, I'm not seeing them

18     in a direct reference.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, can't you see them on the screen?

20     No?

21             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm happy to follow them on the screen if they can

22     come up, but I see we're having a problem already with one that's not

23     coming up.  But in my understanding it's only the witness who has a

24     problem with the screen and not everybody.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, while we are waiting, does the

Page 22747

 1     Prosecution have a response on what Trial Chamber asked yesterday about

 2     the 12 translated documents?

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  No, but I can consult with my learned friends who

 4     are listening and get back to you in the break.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Would it assist to give the witness the tab 58, the

 7     number that -- the chart that you were -- wanted?

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  We have it on the screen.  Thank you very much.

 9     Will it be possible for a witness to mark on the screen on this document?

10     Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I'm advised that we can try.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, please.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, could you please mark for us the

14     stations.  But when you go about marking them, please say loud and clear

15     which station you are marking.  My question is:  Mark the stations that

16     had a crime prevention unit.

17        A.   Should I mark just those that did, in other words?

18        Q.   Whichever way you like.

19        A.   In that case, I'll leave unmarked those that didn't.

20        Q.   You pick whichever.

21        A.   I will pick those that did.  I'll mark those that did.

22             Ilidza, Novo Sarajevo, Zvornik, Ilijas, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak,

23     Sokolac, Pale, Sekovici.  Those are the ones that had the crime

24     prevention units.  And the remaining stations, they only had one when

25     they were beginning to be set up, which is late in 1992.

Page 22748

 1        Q.   Is that the same case for the whole period, April to

 2     September 1992, or even up until the end of 1992, when the service was

 3     formed in other stations as well?

 4        A.   Well, in those other stations the crime prevention police began

 5     its formation from the end of September onwards, depending on the

 6     station.

 7        Q.   Let us just clarify once again:  What was the main reason for

 8     this late establishment of services and departments for crime prevention

 9     in those public security stations?

10        A.   Firstly, the war.  And then also there was manpower shortage.  We

11     did not have enough people who could carry out the tasks and duties of

12     crime prevention inspectors.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On the second day of your examination, page 21578 --

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I would like to tender

15     this document.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 1D630.  Thank

18     you.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, on page 21578, the topic was the timing of

21     the conflict at Vrace.  You said:

22             It did not happen that night, it happened during the day on the

23     5th of April sometime in the afternoon, definitely afternoon.  I was not

24     at Vrace but I'm sure that it happened during the day and not during the

25     night.

Page 22749

 1             "Q.  ... right ... for whatever reason, Mr. Mihajlovic either put

 2     the wrong date deliberately or made a mistake."

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's document 65 ter 20212, tab 62,

 4     Prosecution document.

 5        Q.   It's a report on the work of public security station in

 6     Novo Sarajevo from the 1st of April until the 25th of December, 1992.  It

 7     was drafted by Zoran Mihajlovic.  In the first sentence we see:

 8             "Novo Sarajevo SJB was formed on the 5th of April ..."

 9             And you denied this.  Ms. Korner then connected this to the

10     situation at Vrace and in the end stated what I've just read out to you.

11             Sir, take a look at the last page, who is the signatory of this

12     document, page 4?

13        A.   It's signed by the chief of the public security station

14     Novo Sarajevo, Zoran Mihajlovic.

15        Q.   How many chiefs of the public security station Novo Sarajevo

16     worked on that post from April until the moment Mr. Mihajlovic was

17     appointed?

18        A.   I'm not sure, I think two or three.

19        Q.   In the document we looked at just now, we saw Milenko Jovanovic

20     and Milanko Tepavcevic listed as chiefs of the public security station in

21     Novo Sarajevo.  Do you remember whether they were indeed on that post?

22        A.   Yes, I think that after Tepavcevic, Mihajlovic was appointed.

23        Q.   Do you remember at which point in time Zoran Mihajlovic was

24     appointed to chief of the public security station in Novo Sarajevo?

25        A.   I don't know, towards the end of the year, the very end of the

Page 22750

 1     year.

 2        Q.   Do you know what happened to the previous two chiefs, Jovanovic

 3     and Tepavcevic?  Where were they transferred?

 4        A.   Jovanovic was seriously wounded at the school in Vrace, shot

 5     through both legs, and then he went for rehabilitation.  After Tepavcevic

 6     left the post of chief, I believe he was transferred to the

 7     National Security Service or state security.

 8        Q.   Where did Zoran Mihajlovic come from when he was appointed to the

 9     public security station?

10        A.   He spent some time in the public security station in the crime

11     prevention police.  Then for about a month he was in the crime prevention

12     police with me in Security Services Centre.  And then from the chief --

13     from the post of the chief of crime prevention, he came to the post of

14     the public security station, chief of the public security station.

15        Q.   Do you remember the discussion about Sasa Blagojevic; and when

16     was Blagojevic in the Security Services Centre Sarajevo Romanija-Birac;

17     when he was not there, where he was; and such-like.  You spoke about this

18     topic on two occasion with Ms. Korner.

19        A.   Yes, I remember.

20        Q.   Page 22258 --

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, now I want to show you P1892.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, before we leave the document that's

23     on the screen for the moment, can you give me the date of that document

24     or can I have page 1 of the document again.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe the date, Your Honours, is the

Page 22751

 1     27th December, 1992.  It's on the first page of the document.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You can go ahead.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Sir, this is an Official Note.  Bijeljina, the

 5     4th of August, 1992.  It's a note on interviews which were conducted.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.

 7        Q.   It's signed by the persons who drafted the note.  Do you know any

 8     of the names listed here?

 9        A.   Yes, I know all three of them.

10        Q.   What are they, those three individuals?

11        A.   They are the operatives.  They are crime inspectors.

12        Q.   The middle one, the name that we find in the middle, who is he?

13        A.   It's Sasa Blagojevic, the one about whom we spoke.

14        Q.   Let us go back to page 1.  Did you learn anything about this?  We

15     see here that the official interviews were conducted with the persons

16     listed here; they had been arrested in the area of Zvornik municipality

17     as members of paramilitary formations.  Were you aware of that?

18        A.   No, I did not receive this Official Note.  This had to do with

19     the crime prevention administration.  They were in charge of this.  And

20     we also see that the interviews were conducted in Bijeljina.

21        Q.   Crime prevention administration of which CSB?

22        A.   Crime prevention administration of the RS MUP, so not Security

23     Services Centres but the headquarters of the MUP.

24        Q.   Is that the same Sasa Blagojevic that we discussed before, the

25     one that worked in Security Services Centre in Sarajevo?

Page 22752

 1        A.   Yes.  I said that he was in Zvornik at the time.

 2        Q.   The date is the 4th of August.  Is that the time-period that you

 3     refer to when you say that he was in Zvornik?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P997.  It's tab 23,

 6     Defence document.  Can we have the last page, please, it's page 2.

 7        Q.   This is a report dated the 27th of August.  Who submitted this

 8     report?

 9        A.   Sasa Blagojevic, you can see it here.

10        Q.   Is this the same individual that you mentioned before, the one

11     who worked in the Security Services Centre Sarajevo Romanija-Birac?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the first page.

14        Q.   This document is dated the 27th of August and it's a report on

15     the visit to the Vlasenica SJB.  Are you aware of this report?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was it sent to you or crime prevention police?

18        A.   This report was made for the chief of the Security Services

19     Centre and I was made aware of it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  On page 22621, Ms. Korner spoke about the hours, the

21     total number of hours, spent on the investigation of the Golf vehicles,

22     and on page 22621 she said:

23             Are you going to agree with me, Mr. Tusevljak, that this

24     operation had "a priority between ... July and the end of November

25     in [sic] the Sarajevo CSB?"

Page 22753

 1             And your answer was:

 2             I'm not sure whether it had a priority or not, but if you look at

 3     the number of inspectors, you can see how many inspectors we had.  Two

 4     white-collar crime inspectors worked on those matters.

 5             Do you remember this exchange with Ms. Korner?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D328.  It's Defence

 8     document number 6.  You can find it in your binder.  It is Prosecution

 9     tab 17.

10        Q.   Sir, this is the report on the meeting of heads of departments

11     for criminality for the Romanija-Birac CSB.  It details the meeting in

12     Sokolac held on the 27th of July, 1992.  Can you confirm this?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You attended the meeting?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All the problems that you encountered in your work as well as the

17     priorities you had, did you discuss this?  Did you discuss the problems

18     on this meeting?

19        A.   Yes, that was the topic of the meeting, problems and ways of

20     overcoming them.

21        Q.   Was there any discussion about the priorities of the CSB?

22        A.   I believe so.  I believe that some conclusions were drawn up at

23     the end.

24        Q.   Look at page 4, the last a sentence in the first paragraph, these

25     are the words of Nikola Milanovic from the crime prevention

Page 22754

 1     administration of the headquarters of the MUP.  Do you remember whether

 2     Nikola Milanovic spoke at that meeting?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember what he said on the meeting about the crimes

 5     committed by Serbs against civilian population?

 6        A.   I cannot remember the details.  It would be impossible.  However,

 7     based on the content of my report, we can see briefly summarised who

 8     spoke about what.

 9        Q.   Were there any conclusions made at the meeting?

10        A.   Yes.  At the very end of the meeting, we drew up conclusions.

11        Q.   Can we find those conclusions in this report?

12        A.   Yes, at the end of the report.

13        Q.   Look at the conclusions and tell me whether any of them pertain

14     to the priorities, and if so, what were the priorities in your work?

15        A.   I can read it out if you want.

16        Q.   No, that is not necessary.  They are contained in the document.

17     I'm only interested in the conclusions relating to the priorities because

18     the original question by Ms. Korner pertained to this topic.  The

19     document itself is in evidence; there is no reason to read it out loud.

20        A.   One of the conclusions is that the communication should be

21     improved, informing should be approved, a courier service should be

22     established.  Then we were supposed to receive requests for engagement of

23     new personnel and proposals which had to be approved by SJB heads.

24     Further on, we needed more forensic equipment because nobody had that.

25     So we also requested that the problem of the judiciary should be solved

Page 22755

 1     because there were no judicial organs in the area of our centre.  And at

 2     the end it says:  Maximum engagement of all operational workers is

 3     requested for the tasks of documenting war crimes and submitting criminal

 4     reports against known and unknown perpetrators.  And in relation to that:

 5     Maximum of the co-operation with the authorities in the areas where crime

 6     prevention services are carrying out their tasks.

 7        Q.   So in the operative sense, what was the priority based on these

 8     conclusions?

 9        A.   The operative priority was number 6, prevention of and

10     documenting of war crimes.

11        Q.   Sir, does any of the conclusions mentioned here mention the

12     TAS factory and the thefts from that factory in Vogosca?

13        A.   No, obviously not.

14        Q.   Ms. Korner asked you about the property.  Besides cars, were

15     there any other objects of value stored in the TAS factory in Vogosca?

16        A.   The name of the factory was UNIS Pretis.  It's 15 kilometres

17     long.  15.000 workers used to work there in a single shift.  And then if

18     you just think about the value of all the cars stored within the factory

19     and you compare it with everything else that was within the perimeter of

20     the factory, machinery, thousands of motors providing the power for the

21     machinery, anything else you can imagine.

22        Q.   Do you know who was the owner of this factory, TAS UNIS Pretis in

23     Vogosca, whatever the exact name was?

24        A.   I don't know.  I suppose the state.  It was state-owned.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On page 22629, you were shown a document, P743,

Page 22756

 1     Prosecution binder 6A.  You remember Ms. Korner showing you this document

 2     signed by Colonel Tomislav Sipcic, page 22629.  You remember that, don't

 3     you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If you look at the header --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] We can pull the document up a

 7     little, please, so the witness can see.

 8        Q.   It reads "Romanija Corps," then the date.  On the right-hand

 9     side, "very urgent."  Who is this document sent to or addressed to, this

10     report?

11        A.   The Main Staff of the Republika Srpska BiH, that is, our own

12     Main Staff.

13        Q.   What about you at the Security Services Centre, did you ever

14     receive reports from the Romanija Corps?

15        A.   No, never.

16        Q.   Thank you.  At page 22638 there was some discussion regarding the

17     situation at the Pale Public Security Station.  You discussed problems

18     that were occurring there at the time as well as the fact that

19     Mr. Stjepan Micic spoke to you to complain about the situation that

20     prevailed at the time in the public security station.  You do remember

21     that, sir, don't you?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Is it your recollection that before new people came into the

24     leading positions, including the chief of the public security station, at

25     Pale another member, high-ranking member, who worked at the station had

Page 22757

 1     been removed and charges had been brought against that person?

 2        A.   Yes, I know about that.

 3        Q.   Do you perhaps remember that person's name?

 4        A.   I believe his first name was Vlajko, and I can't remember his

 5     last name.

 6        Q.   Perhaps you can remember when this happened.  Was it in 1992?

 7     And ultimately what was the whole thing about?

 8        A.   I think a commission was set up by the RS MUP that was after Pale

 9     in 1992, including operatives from the Security Services Centre.

10        Q.   Just a minute, please.  And the brief of that commission was?

11     Was there a specific brief?

12        A.   Yes, to establish any irregularities in the work of that

13     particular police station.  Based on that, when they went into the legal

14     and administrative department, they established that there had been some

15     irregularities there.  The chief of that section faced criminal charges

16     and all the other employees of that department were replaced or

17     dismissed.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now that we're on the subject - 22640 is the page -

19     you were asked by Ms. Korner about members of the reserve police and

20     active-duty police officers being disciplined.  Ms. Korner goes on to

21     say:

22             "Mr. Tusevljak" -- just a minute, please.  I'm going to try and

23     find the exact reference and I'll read in English.

24             [In English] "Now, I'm pointing out to you, Mr. Tusevljak, that

25     from a case that you personally were involved in which on the face of it

Page 22758

 1     should have required disciplinary proceedings, shouldn't it?

 2             "A.  Yes, but it wasn't up to me to start that, to trigger that.

 3     What I triggered was the start of investigation, but it wasn't up to me

 4     to propose any disciplinary steps or start disciplinary proceedings ...

 5     It was" --

 6             And further down:

 7             "It was the responsibility of the chief to take the final

 8     decision on any steps to be taken."

 9             [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

12        Q.   You do remember that answer, don't you?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Sir, in keeping with the regulations, did you have the authority

15     to initiate disciplinary proceedings, and if so, in relation to whom?

16        A.   Yes, I had that power.  I had the authority to initiate

17     disciplinary proceedings only vis-à-vis employees who worked in my

18     department within the Security Services Centre.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday at page 22655, or, rather, 22709, there was

20     mention there of some information shown to you by Ms. Korner, information

21     put together by Kenan Delic, an inspector from the Sarajevo airport.  And

22     this was about the airport being taken by the JNA.  This is 65 ter 20213,

23     Prosecution tab 64.  Do you remember that document, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

Page 22759

 1     page 3, the final paragraph of page 3.

 2        Q.   Sir, you commented at 22709 and you told Ms. Korner, having

 3     previously been asked whether you agreed that the JNA had taken the

 4     airport on the 5th of April:

 5             "Yes, but," you said; it says here that Kenan Delic's police were

 6     also at the airport at the police station up until the 12th of April.

 7             I don't think the answer that you provided was completely

 8     recorded at the time, therefore I wish to ask you a couple of additional

 9     questions in relation to this.

10             Sir, in your opinion, based on Mr. Kenan Delic's report, when was

11     it that the JNA took the airport in Sarajevo?

12        A.   This shows that members of the JNA arrived at the airport on the

13     6th of April.  Nevertheless, within the airport itself there was the

14     police station providing security.  This shows clearly that the airport

15     police station kept on operating until the 12th of April, 1992.  It also

16     shows Mr. Delic as saying that most of the police station's employees

17     were operating in the area.  So in practical terms, the JNA established

18     control over the airport no sooner than the 12th of April, at least

19     complete control.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  At page 22663 of yesterday's LiveNote, two

21     persons bearing the same last name, Vlaco, were discussed.  Do you

22     remember that, don't you?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   We spent quite some time dealing with that.  I'll just ask you

25     two questions on this.  What about Branko and Branislav; are these two

Page 22760

 1     names that are different names in the Serbian language?  Are these two

 2     different names?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What would be a usual nickname for persons called either one of

 5     these two names?

 6        A.   Brane.  That would be a perfectly ordinary and usual common

 7     nickname.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, you were shown yesterday a number of documents.

 9     P2369, which is the Vogosca -- Serb municipality of Vogosca bulletin,

10     detention unit, Prosecution tab 28B.  You remember being shown this

11     document, sir, don't you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Let me ask you this - I believe I asked you this already in

14     chief, but just to be perfectly sure:  Did you at the Security Services

15     Centre ever receive bulletins such as this from the prison administration

16     in Vogosca?

17        A.   No.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  Can we move on to the next

19     document, please, P2368.

20        Q.   This bulletin is dated the 26th of July, 1992.  Prison warden

21     Branko Vlaco, and there is a list there.  Sir, are you familiar with

22     Mr. Branko Vlaco's signature?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

Page 22761

 1     P2364, Prosecution tab 59.

 2        Q.   Another document you were shown.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the Serbian, please.

 4     The original.

 5        Q.   This is the CV of Branislav Vlaco, something else you were shown

 6     by Ms. Korner.  This document is signed by the person in question.  Do

 7     you recognise this signature, the signature of Branislav Vlaco?

 8        A.   No, I'm not familiar with that signature either.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  As an experienced operative, and I know you are no

10     expert in the field, but in your opinion what about these two signatures

11     that we've just looked at, are the two different?

12        A.   Back at university I took a course in graphology and handwriting

13     analysis; that was part of the forensic subject that we were taught.

14        Q.   Would you like us to have the two documents side by side on your

15     screen?

16        A.   That would be nice, if possible.  Thank you.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the two

18     displayed side by side.  P2368 on the right-hand side, we would like to

19     see the original, tab 6A; we'd like to keep the Serbian and P2368 instead

20     of English.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour, I wonder whether this is really

22     appropriate.  The witness is not a handwriting expert.  He is not

23     proffered as such.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I was just going to ask Mr. Zecevic to pause so the

25     Chamber can consult on the propriety of that question.

Page 22762

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  No, Mr. Zecevic, the Chamber is of the view that the

 3     question that you were attempting to put would not be -- is not a

 4     question that could be properly put to this witness.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, with all due respect, my

 6     question was:

 7             "As an experienced operative, and I know you are no expert in the

 8     field, but in your opinion what about these two signatures that we have

 9     just looked at, are the two different?"

10             And then the witness offered that he took a course in graphology

11     and handwriting analysis and that is why I put both documents on the

12     screen.  But if Your Honours believe that --

13             JUDGE HALL:  And the -- [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the president, please.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  The difficulty is in your -- a part of your

16     question was:  Although you are not an expert, in your opinion ... which

17     is the problem.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  Anyhow, it's obvious.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak --

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D106.

21     That is tab 1, Defence tab 1.

22        Q.   Sir, the date is the 12th of July, 1992.  This is a report by

23     operatives of the Romanija-Birac CSB from Vogosca.  They toured Vogosca

24     on the 3rd of July, 1992.  We've looked at this report already.  Do you

25     remember that?

Page 22763

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Do you also remember that the Security Services Centre was

 3     informed in this report and that the operatives established that there is

 4     no such thing as the crime service in -- or crime unit in Vogosca; they

 5     advised that one be established as soon as possible?

 6        A.   Yes, I do remember that that was the case.

 7        Q.   Could you please go to page 2 of the document.  At the end there

 8     is a list, a proposal was made and specific names proposed towards the

 9     bottom of that page.  It says:  We agree that a crime unit should be

10     established and should comprise Brano Vlaco as a chief of the service, an

11     employee of the station up to now and of the Security Services Centre in

12     Sarajevo.

13             We've heard everything that we have heard so far.  Can you please

14     tell me which Brane Vlaco is this a reference to?  Is this about

15     Branislav Vlaco or Branko Vlaco?

16        A.   This is a reference to Branislav Vlaco.

17        Q.   You are concluding this based on what exactly?

18        A.   Branislav Vlaco was an employee of the crime unit of the

19     Sarajevo Security Services Centre, a white-collar crime inspector in that

20     service.

21        Q.   When you say Sarajevo, do you mean before the clashes erupted in

22     1992?

23        A.   Yes, I mean the period preceding the clashes in 1992.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another topic

Page 22764

 1     to cover, a mere handful of documents, but I think this would be a

 2     convenient time for our break.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So we resume in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, is the Prosecutor able to respond or

 8     give an answer to the question we put to you yesterday -- put to

 9     Ms. Korner yesterday?

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, Your Honour.  In respect to the 12 documents

11     which are remaining, we have received translations and reviewed them.  I

12     note that the documents were actually sought to be used with the witness

13     who's currently on the stand and so it's a little bit problematic now

14     that he's in re-examination.  However, given we've reviewed them and in

15     light of the comments that Your Honours made in your ruling about the

16     other documents, we really take no position on these documents.  We fail

17     to see the relevance of at least half of them because they are outside of

18     the indictment municipalities, but they are within the temporal

19     time-frame of the indictment and we'll take our objection to their

20     relevance as and when they're sought to be actually tendered by the

21     Defence.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  So then we will add them --

23     we will allow Mr. Zecevic to add them to the 65 ter list.  Thank you very

24     much.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 22765

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I received a suggestion from my colleagues.  In

 4     order to round up your testimony, we again have 1D360 on our screens.

 5     It's the document that you marked at the very beginning of the session

 6     today relating to public security stations in which during 1992 there was

 7     a crime prevention administration.  Sir, we are interested in the period

 8     between April and July, or perhaps end of summer, August, 1992.  We can

 9     see from this document that nine stations had the crime prevention

10     administration formed by the end of 1992.  Would you be able to tell us

11     or to write down on this document next to each of the marked stations how

12     many operatives worked in each of them who were in charge of crime

13     prevention in the aforementioned period?  But first of all, could you

14     repeat:  How many people did you have directly under you in the Security

15     Services Centre?

16        A.   Until July or August I had two and then four and then in November

17     or December a slightly larger number of employees.  You can see the exact

18     numbers from the payrolls.

19             I can now attempt to quote the numbers of the personnel in each

20     police station.

21        Q.   Approximately.

22        A.   Precisely.  I can only give you an approximation because it's

23     impossible for me to remember the exact numbers now.

24             I believe that in Ilidza there were six operatives.  In

25     Novo Sarajevo, four.  I am also including forensic technicians in these

Page 22766

 1     numbers.  Then in Hadzici I think that until the end of the year there

 2     was only one or maybe even none.

 3        Q.   Only mention those that had crime prevention service.  And could

 4     you be so kind to only quote the number of the operatives, of inspectors.

 5     We are not interested in forensic technicians.

 6        A.   Well, then, here, instead of six I have to write five; and here,

 7     instead of four I have to write three.

 8        Q.   Then cross out six and four, please.

 9        A.   As for Zvornik, I don't know.

10        Q.   Wait a minute, maybe it's better to erase this and then you can

11     write the numbers again.  So I'm only interested in the number of

12     operatives, inspectors.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So five and three.  I don't know

15     for Zvornik.  It wasn't our situation before 1992 so I can't remember.

16     Ilijas, two.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Shouldn't we, in respect of Zvornik, so that we

18     don't confuse ourselves when we look back at this, put a question mark,

19     having regard to his answer?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Will you put a question mark on Zvornik.

22        A.   Vlasenica I also don't know.  Han Pijesak, one.  Sokolac, one

23     operative.  Pale, three, I believe.  And Sekovici, two.

24        Q.   You said that you didn't know for Vlasenica.  Could you put a

25     question mark there.

Page 22767

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the exhibit number for

 4     this.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So apparently it has to have a new marking, so ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 1D631, Your Honours.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I hope we didn't lost it. [Interpretation] Thank

 8     you.

 9        Q.   Sir, just one more thing before we move on to the last topic.

10             On page 22466 of the transcript you were asked by Ms. Korner

11     something about the document that you gave to the Stanisic Defence.  She

12     asked whether you gave them any documents before 2007; you said:  No, as

13     far as I know it was only after we started receiving formal requests.

14             And then after this I showed you one such request and one

15     document that you sent accompanied with the list of documents.  Do you

16     remember that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Just for the transcript, and perhaps for some future use, did you

19     act upon our requests in some other cases and send us documents?

20        A.   Whenever you contact the secretariat for relations with

21     The Hague Tribunal, and I mean the secretariat within the government of

22     the RS, and they forward your request to us, or in cases you contacted

23     directly the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, according to the

24     law in co-operation with The Hague Tribunal of Republika Srpska all

25     available documents are then sent to you.

Page 22768

 1        Q.   Do you perhaps remember how many times you did that?

 2        A.   No, I really wouldn't know.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  But do you remember that it happened more than once?

 4        A.   Surely more than once.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             Now, the last topic.  Document P160, tab 153 in the Defence

 7     binder.  153.  It's a report about the meeting of the first collegium of

 8     the MUP of Republika Srpska held on the 1st of July.  Ms. Korner asked

 9     you about this on page 22705.  She quoted your own words from page --

10        A.   -- 18, I remember.

11        Q.   Yes, but in e-court it's page 21 in Serbian.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the same page in

13     English; I believe it's one page before this one.  It could be page 18 in

14     English.  18.

15        Q.   Right, this is where you begin.  Ms. Korner read out the last

16     sentence in this paragraph, saying that at that meeting you said -- she

17     was speaking to you, saying:  You said that in Vlasenica out of

18     73 criminal reports, 23 were filed against Serbs.  However, Ms. Korner,

19     and I fully understand her, omitted to read the previous sentence.

20             Could you read your words as they were recorded in this report,

21     so that's one sentence before the last.

22        A.   "Tusevljak spoke about the lack of personnel engaged in criminal

23     investigations at the Sarajevo Security Services Centre" --

24        Q.   No, I'm sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough.  The last sentence

25     in this paragraph begins with words "for example."  I'm interested in the

Page 22769

 1     sentence immediately before this one.  And you don't have to read it out

 2     loud.  This is evidence.

 3        A.   "Criminal reports are filed against everybody."

 4        Q.   What did you have in mind when you said criminal reports are

 5     filed against everybody?

 6        A.   I was referring to the fact that the ethnicity of the perpetrator

 7     of criminal offence was irrelevant for us.  We filed criminal reports

 8     against everybody who committed a criminal offence.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 26 in e-court in

11     Serbian and 23, I believe, in English.

12        Q.   I'm interested in one of the conclusions.  You were shown this

13     conclusion by Ms. Korner.  It's conclusion 6 relating to prevention and

14     documenting of war crimes.  However, she omitted, again, to show you

15     conclusion 7.

16             Could you comment on conclusion 7.

17        A.   Should I read it out?

18        Q.   There is no need for that.  Just comment on it.  What is it

19     about?  What kind of criminal offences are meant?  When it says "serious

20     crimes of endangering life," what is it about?

21        A.   Well, this is about discovery of serious crimes such as looting,

22     war profiteering, serious crimes against life and limb, and other

23     criminal offences irrespective of who the perpetrators are.

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 22770

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Just a short comment on the following:  Serious crimes of

 4     endangering life, what exactly is this?  What kind of criminal offences

 5     are we talking about here?

 6        A.   Aggravated murders.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, in conclusion 6 --

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] In English it's on the previous

 9     page.

10        Q.   -- we find the following:

11             "Preventing and documenting war crimes and using all legally

12     prescribed resources and methods for documenting such enemy activity ..."

13             Ms. Korner read out this part.  And then on page 22706, you

14     stated:

15             When you take a look at my discussion, you will see that I spoke

16     about the crimes committed by Serbs.  This conclusion relates only to the

17     enemy activity in that sense, but nothing is specified about the enemy.

18     What exactly does that word mean, who is it?  There are some reports

19     filed against known and unknown perpetrators.

20             By that you mean to say that you had in your files reports filed

21     against known and unknown perpetrators.

22             And then Ms. Korner asked you:

23             The Serbs in Bosnia and Republika Srpska considered their enemies

24     those that you call Green Berets, HOS, Patriotic League, you considered

25     them enemies?

Page 22771

 1             And you answered yes, "They were the enemy."

 2             Sir, could you explain whether in the Serbian language the word

 3     "enemy," in it's second declension, is it the same in plural and

 4     singular?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So when we find, as we find here, "enemy" as in "neprijatelje,"

 7     is it possible to deduct from this whether it is plural or singular?

 8        A.   It could be both.

 9        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Generally speaking, whom did the Ministry of the Interior

13     consider enemy?

14        A.   Perpetrators of criminal offences.

15        Q.   So we have the Green Berets here, the HOS, the Patriotic League,

16     all these paramilitary organisations, in your opinion would this same

17     group include some paramilitary units like the Yellow Wasps or groups

18     like that?

19        A.   Yes, the group would include those two as our enemies during the

20     war.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, I will now show you 1D063, tab 290.  You

22     answered a question by Ms. Korner, also at 22706, saying that other

23     instructions and orders had arrived from the Ministry of the Interior

24     regarding war crimes.  This is at page 22695.

25             Just to make sure this is complete, the date on the document is

Page 22772

 1     the 19th of July.  It is a document produced by the Ministry of Interior,

 2     signed by Mr. Stanisic, delivered to all Security Services Centres

 3     including the one in Sarajevo.  Could you please read slowly paragraph 1

 4     and paragraph 2 of these guide-lines or instructions being delivered to

 5     these addressees.

 6        A.   "Proceeding in accordance with the conclusions adopted at the

 7     meeting of senior personnel on the 11th of July, 1992, whereby the tasks

 8     related to the discovery of documentation of war crimes or genocide and

 9     the submission of criminal reports, as well as in accordance with other

10     enactments, (number strictly confidential 01-2/92 of the

11     16th of May, 1992) and orders were numbered among the priorities of the

12     National Security Service and the crime prevention service, a

13     questionnaire on war crimes and victims of genocide has been compiled in

14     the information analysis administration.

15             "A questionnaire will be completed at Security Services Centres

16     for all persons regardless of ethnicity (Muslims, Croats, Serbs, and

17     others) against whom criminal reports have been submitted on reasonable

18     grounds for suspicion that they have committed the given crimes, as well

19     as questionnaires for victims regardless of whether a criminal report has

20     been submitted or the procedure of gathering evidence for the submission

21     of a criminal report against the perpetrators is still in progress."

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Could we please have page 3.

24        Q.   Sir, this is the RZ form in relation to victims of war crimes.

25     You see that, don't you?

Page 22773

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you please comment on item 5 and item 6, or, rather,

 3     question 5 and question 6 of this form.

 4        A.   Number 5 is the victim's ethnicity.  Number 6 is the victim's

 5     religion.

 6        Q.   Sir, if Ms. Korner were right, if the position and the policy of

 7     the Ministry of the Interior had been to document war crimes but only

 8     those committed against Serbs, would there have been any need for a form

 9     like this to include this type of information?

10        A.   No.  There would have been no need at all.

11        Q.   Sir, we talked in chief about the reasons that criminal offences

12     committed in territory not under the control of the Ministry of the

13     Interior of the RS were documented.  You remember that, don't you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you please remind us of that reason; why were you looking

16     into that?

17        A.   We would get contacted by citizens leaving the area.  On their

18     way out they would report those criminal offences to the local police

19     stations and they would provide statements.

20        Q.   Did you document those statements and did you follow the

21     statements up with specific criminal reports based on such documentation

22     as you were able to obtain?

23        A.   Yes.  Based on this, we would forward reports to the competent

24     prosecutors.

25        Q.   Let us look at a number of criminal reports that you were shown

Page 22774

 1     yesterday by Ms. Korner.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P2372.

 3        Q.   Sir, this is document that you were shown by Ms. Korner

 4     yesterday.  It's a criminal report addressed to the high prosecutor in

 5     Sarajevo temporarily --

 6        A.   I believe this was in closed session.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we have the tab number, Mr. Zecevic.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's tab number 5 of the Prosecutor's binder.  I'm

 9     sorry.

10             JUDGE HALL:  So we move into closed session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 22775











11 Pages 22775-22779 redacted. Private session.
















Page 22780

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   The documents gathered in 1992, are they used in criminal

16     proceedings in all these cases?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             Mr. Tusevljak, Ms. Korner showed you a report for the period the

20     2nd of September, 1992, dated October 1992, and it's a report on -- or,

21     rather, it's a report on the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac CSB.  It's P793 and

22     P2375.  It's your own administration's report.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P2375.  It's

24     Prosecution tab 35.

25        Q.   I would like you to comment on it.

Page 22781

 1             On page 22716, Ms. Korner quoted from this document and from the

 2     other one, the other report, and she said:

 3             Documenting of criminal offences against Serbs is a specific

 4     issue.  This sector is undertaking great efforts to adequately document

 5     those criminal offences despite great difficulties.

 6             What great difficulties are you referring to here?

 7        A.   Well, it was impossible to go into the field.  We did not have

 8     evidence collected on site.  We did not have medical documentation.  As

 9     I've already stated, often when the VRS would be involved in a body

10     exchange, very often we were not present.  We were not even aware of the

11     exchanges.  And at the same time we had a constant lack of professional

12     adequately-trained personnel, because nobody, beginning with me, no

13     member of the crime prevention police had ever encountered this kind of

14     criminal offences in their careers up to date.  At that moment we

15     practically knew nothing about it, how to document them, what to do about

16     them, what procedure to follow.  That was our greatest problem.

17        Q.   Did you undertake any measures in relation to this?  Did the

18     Ministry of the Interior undertake any measures in relation to this, such

19     as instructive dispatches, guide-lines, and the like?

20        A.   We used to receive dispatches from the Ministry of the Interior.

21     We, from the crime prevention police department, also attempted to draw

22     up a sort of a brochure.  It was a dispatch with instructions on how

23     crime prevention police should act and what the operative should do.  The

24     most experienced forensic technician did the same thing and he also

25     dispatched an instruction on the forensic procedures to be followed in

Page 22782

 1     the field.

 2             I also believe that towards the end of the year we organised a

 3     training for forensic technicians in the RS MUP.  The goal of all these

 4     measures was to improve the work of the crime prevention police.  Among

 5     other things, we didn't have properly trained forensic technicians, that

 6     is, people who could go on site and document the event using appropriate

 7     methods.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  At the very end of her cross-examination - and this

 9     is going to be my last question as well, my last topic, to be more

10     precise - Ms. Korner spoke about the annual report of the Ministry of the

11     Interior.  It's P625.  It relates to the period between April and

12     December 1992.  It is dated January 1993.  It's Prosecution tab pre-1B.

13             Do you remember that you spoke with Ms. Korner about this

14     document?  She quoted some passages from this document.  Do you remember

15     that?

16        A.   Well, I was given this report to read it in my hotel room, and I

17     read it from the first to the last page.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19     page, I believe it's 17 in Serbian.  The number in the lower right-hand

20     corner should be 13 -- or, rather -- well, actually, yes, 13.

21        Q.   This is the section devoted to the Public Security Service.

22     Under A we see the heading "Prevention and Discovery of Crime."

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's at page 12 in English.

24        Q.   Sir, could you please read the last sentence and then we are

25     going to turn the page.

Page 22783

 1        A.   "It should also be emphasised that among the perpetrators there

 2     is a certain number of uniformed persons" --

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn the page.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- "who are mainly members of

 5     paramilitary formations, but also army reservists."

 6             And then there is a remark saying:  "Criminal offences committed

 7     by the members of the VRS would normally be referred by the organs of the

 8     military police."

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   No need to read the footnotes.

11        A.   "And police reservists, while some of the criminals used

12     camouflage uniforms and even the insignia of the Army of Republika Srpska

13     and the police."

14        Q.   No, no.  Do you also know or do you have any information about

15     similar occurrences?

16        A.   Yes.  Very often perpetrators of criminal offences put on the VRS

17     uniform or police uniforms and then proceeded to commit criminal

18     offences.

19        Q.   On the following page, Ms. Korner read the last paragraph, where

20     it says that the most grave forms of crimes that have occurred lately --

21     [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we also have it in English.  I

24     would like to be able to follow.  It should be -- yes, the third

25     paragraph.  The third paragraph in English; this is what I'm quoting

Page 22784

 1     from.

 2        Q.   So:  "The most severe forms of crime which appeared in this war

 3     period for brutality, ruthlessness, and other elements comprising are the

 4     crimes against humanity and international law.  The number of these

 5     crimes is surely much greater, and the collection of documents is a

 6     difficult and long-term work.  We have registered 101 crimes against

 7     humanity and international law."

 8             Mr. Tusevljak, you worked on crime prevention and detection.  Do

 9     you agree with the contents of this paragraph of this report?

10        A.   Yes, entirely.

11        Q.   Further on, on the page marked with a number 17 which means --

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I'm not sure which page

13     of the Serbian version are we looking at now.  Thank you.  Can we have

14     the same in English, please.  It should be page 15 in English, towards

15     the bottom.

16        Q.   Ms. Korner read out the claim that the focus of the operative

17     work in the CSB was concentrated on members of the enemy forces who

18     committed crimes and so on and so forth.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page marked with

20     a number 19 which in English could be page 17.  So it's 19 in Serbian,

21     17 in English.

22        Q.   I would like you to comment on it.  First, could you please read

23     the second paragraph beginning with the words "during this period."

24        A.   "In this period, 7.807 criminal reports were filed in the area of

25     general crime" --

Page 22785

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, it's page 16 in English,

 2     the fourth paragraph.

 3        Q.   Go on.  Excuse me for interrupting you.

 4        A.   "In this period, 7.807 criminal reports were filed for common

 5     crime.  The results are relatively satisfactory, especially if we bear in

 6     mind the circumstances in which the crimes were perpetrated" --

 7        Q.   Just one comment before we go on the break:  We find a number of

 8     7.807 criminal reports, do you remember the number of the criminal

 9     reports for war crimes and breaches of international law?

10        A.   In this report, 101.

11        Q.   Does this represent a comparatively smaller percentage or - how

12     should I put it? - significantly lesser percentage in relation to the

13     total number of criminal reports filed in the period?

14        A.   Yes, you can see it from the number of the criminal reports filed

15     for common crime and for war crimes.

16        Q.   Sir, Mr. Tusevljak, if some tasks have priority in the MUP, what

17     are the hallmarks of the results of this priority work?

18        A.   The main characteristics is the number of the cases solved.

19     That's the only one.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I see the time, Your Honours.  I

22     have perhaps less than ten minutes, but I also have to inform the

23     Trial Chamber about a certain matter, that is why I propose that we go on

24     the break now.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.

Page 22786

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, in this report, this annual

 8     report, we see on the one hand that the police had the priority to

 9     process war crimes.  On the other hand, we see the actual number of

10     criminal reports that were filed.  Tell me, what is your opinion, why are

11     the numbers as they are?

12        A.   I think, first of all, that these are reports that are filed on

13     daily basis by citizens.  I think that the public security from

14     Banja Luka has filed the greatest number of reports that were originally

15     instituted by individual citizens.

16        Q.   No, you didn't understand me.  I'm talking here about the war

17     crimes report.  You just told us that 101 criminal reports were filed for

18     war crimes.  On the other hand we see in this report that war crimes had

19     the priority.  So how can you explain this?  What is the reason?  How

20     come that something that has been given high priority resulted in a

21     comparatively small number of criminal reports?

22        A.   Well, the reason for that is the small number of operatives

23     working in the field who were able to deal with war crimes; that's number

24     one.  Number two, very often the police were simply unable to act on the

25     reports.

Page 22787

 1        Q.   When you say "unable to act," are you referring to some objective

 2     reasons or some other reasons?

 3        A.   War resulted in the fact that the police was unable to reach the

 4     places where war crimes were committed.

 5        Q.   The 101 criminal report for war crimes, what does it pertain to?

 6     Who were the victims in the 101 criminal reports?

 7        A.   I believe all three ethnicities.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, could you read the last paragraph on

 9     this page.  This is the conclusion given by the Ministry of the Interior

10     in relation to the issue of war crimes.  Read it and then I'm going to

11     ask you a question.

12        A.   "Despite --

13        Q.   Excuse me.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the English version

15     back on the screen.  Yes.  It begins on this page and then goes on to the

16     following.  It's the last paragraph, the last sentence on this page.  And

17     then the paragraph continues on the next page.

18        Q.   Go on, Mr. Tusevljak.

19        A.   "In spite of taking and initiating various measures, the

20     documentation of crimes against humanity and international law is not

21     satisfactory.  In the MUP, apart from daily instructions and providing

22     direct help to the Security Services Centres and public security

23     stations, decisions by the expert collegium of ministers, issuance of

24     wanted circulars for war criminals (one a day on average) and the like, a

25     special meeting was held with the leaders regarding these issues and

Page 22788

 1     detailed questionnaires drawn up to collect data on war criminals and

 2     victims of crimes.  Co-operation was established with some of the media

 3     in order to exchange data and documents, et cetera."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, do you agree with this position of the

 5     Ministry of the Interior as it is stated in this report?  Do you know

 6     anything about such measures being undertaken at the time?

 7        A.   Yes, I agree with this position, and I am aware of the measures

 8     that were undertaken.

 9        Q.   Sir, Ms. Korner, at the very end of yesterday's examination on

10     page 22737, stated the following - I'll say it in English:

11             [In English] "Mr. Tusevljak, let's final this, because I ought to

12     make it clear to you:  I'm suggesting that it's quite clear -- and I'm

13     not suggesting this is what you wanted to happen, but it's quite clear

14     that your clear instructions from your bosses from, I suggest, the

15     minister downwards was to investigate war crimes against Serbs and

16     effectively not to bother with the war crimes that were committed against

17     the non-Serbs?  And that's the reality, isn't it?"

18             And your answer:

19             "No.  Investigations were conducted in other cases of crimes, not

20     only when it's Serbs?"

21             [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, did you have any sort of

22     instructions from your superiors in the Ministry of the Interior,

23     including anybody from the headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior,

24     including the minister, to investigate only war crimes against Serbs and

25     not to deal with the war crimes committed against non-Serbs?

Page 22789

 1        A.   No, I never received such instructions from anybody in the

 2     Ministry of the Interior.

 3        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, if such instructions had been issued in 1992,

 4     would it have been in accordance with the Law on the Interior?

 5        A.   No, such an instruction would not be in accordance with the law.

 6        Q.   Bearing this in mind, if members of the Ministry of the Interior

 7     had received such an instruction, would they be duty-bound to act upon

 8     it?

 9        A.   No.  The instructions, contrary to the Law on the Interior, are

10     not the instructions that are binding for the members of the Ministry of

11     the Interior.

12        Q.   And finally, Mr. Tusevljak, had you received such an instruction,

13     would you have acted upon it?

14        A.   No, never.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more

17     questions for this witness.

18             I would just like to remind the Chamber:  On page 22456, during

19     examination-in-chief of this witness, I proposed to de-MFI 1D214 to

20     1D232.  232.  Ms. Korner at the time requested that the decision by the

21     Trial Chamber should be postponed until the end of her cross-examination.

22     The cross-examination is finished and I believe that the documents in

23     question were not even mentioned, or at least not in the sense which

24     would present an obstacle for them to be de-MFI'd.  Therefore, I propose

25     that the documents 1D214 to 1D232 should be admitted into evidence

Page 22790

 1     without being merely marked for identification.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Could you, on a thumbnail, remind me as to what

 3     these documents were, please, Mr. Zecevic.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, those are the expert autopsy reports

 5     from the CSB Banja Luka which were shown to the witness Tusevljak --

 6     Tutus during his cross-examination in, well, a year ago.  And the

 7     problem, Your Honour, was that the objection at that point was the

 8     authenticity of the documents.  And if you remember, I have shown the

 9     document -- the receipt of the documents which we received from the --

10     from the witness here and the RS MUP, and he confirmed that all these

11     documents, which I had shown to him, are the documents which we received

12     from the RS MUP.  And therefore the issue of authenticity, in our

13     opinion, does not exist anymore.  Yes.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  I don't have Ms. Korner's specific instructions on

15     this, but I seem to recall the issue was more of the fact that they were

16     forensic documents and they couldn't -- there was no nexus between either

17     Mr. Tutus or this witness for them to be admitted and that authenticity

18     wasn't the one and only hurdle in the way of their admission.

19             JUDGE HALL:  But inasmuch as Mr. Zecevic has said, the --

20     Ms. Korner's most recent application was to defer the decision until

21     after her cross-examination had been completed, and she didn't touch it.

22     It appears that it has ceased to be a matter of concern for the

23     Prosecution, notwithstanding -- and I'm not ignoring what you just said,

24     Ms. Pidwell, so for purely practical purposes, for the reasons that

25     Mr. Zecevic gave in response to my question as to what this witness has

Page 22791

 1     said about them, it seems that that is the course we should follow.

 2             So the MFI qualification on these documents would be removed and

 3     they would be entered as full exhibits.

 4             Mr. Tusevljak, your examination is now at an end.  You are now

 5     released as a witness.  You are free to go, and we wish you a safe

 6     journey back to your home.  We thank you for coming to assist

 7     the Tribunal and giving evidence.

 8             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  So as would have happened over the past few days, we

10     have some procedural matters we wish to deal.  We wouldn't be rising

11     immediately, so the usher will escort you from the courtroom.  Thank you,

12     sir.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE HALL:  I suppose we have to go into private session.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22792











11 Pages 22792-22793 redacted. Private session.















Page 22794

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HALL:  And I suppose there's a way of my -- of

18     Mr. Krgovic's confirmation that -- not Krgovic's confirmation.  Well, I

19     will repeat the order of the Chamber, the direction of the Chamber, that

20     the previous direction to Mr. Krgovic that the Zupljanin Defence begin on

21     the 11th of July is rescinded and we will now take the adjournment, in

22     the current case, to Monday, the 4th of July.  Thank you.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.03 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day

25                           of July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.