Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23351

 1                           Friday, 15 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.

10             May we take the appearances today, please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, all.  For the Prosecution, Tom Hannis

12     and Crispian Smith.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, Ms. Tatjana Savic, and we're joined

15     by our interns, Rodolphe Genissel and Ms. Margaret Artz, appearing -- all

16     appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

18     Ivan Carpio appearing for Zupljanin Defence this morning.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             And if there are no housekeeping preliminary matters, could the

21     usher please escort the witness back to the stand.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, Mr. Macar.  I give you the

24     usual warning about your solemn declaration before I invite Mr. Hannis to

25     continue.

Page 23352

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 2                           WITNESS:  GORAN MACAR [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

 5        Q.   Mr. Macar, I wanted to start this morning by talking about some

 6     of the field-work that you and your operatives did, and I want to be sure

 7     I understand the terminology.  As I understand, one kind of inspection

 8     that you might do with your workers in terms of the CSBs or the SJBs was

 9     a formal audit.  I guess that's the more serious, more complete kind of

10     inspection.  Is that the right term?

11        A.   In my statements, which I think were precise, in 1992, visits of

12     CSBs and SJBs were carried out in order to get acquainted with the

13     personnel resources, with the materiel and equipment available, and the

14     stages that those organisational units reached in their work.  And when

15     you're talking about audits -- well, monitoring the work of the services

16     or auditing their work requires a more in-depth approach.  You check all

17     the documents, you do quality control, you compare some of the data

18     collected with the data in the reports.  It's a procedure that requires

19     at least 15 days or so for each SJB.  After you enter a station and after

20     you tell the personnel that you are about to carry out an audit,

21     everything is sealed, all the documents are gathered as-is, and then you

22     perform an audit.

23             In the period from 1992 until 1995, there were no audits in the

24     true sense of the word.  I have explained what the problems were that

25     resulted in audits not being carried out.  First of all, shortage in

Page 23353

 1     human resources, in the administration, but it also called for certain

 2     preparations to be carried out and at least a few workers from the crime

 3     enforcement section, from the fraud section would have to be seconded and

 4     would have to go out in the field and stay there and work for at least

 5     15 days.  I've already told you that in 1992 in particular we planned the

 6     length of our stay on the basis of the food that we could carry with us,

 7     mostly canned food, because in war time there were no restaurants or any

 8     other catering facilities, especially not in villages which would support

 9     the work of our employees for a longer period of time.  Also some areas

10     were inaccessible, the terrain was rugged and not contiguous, and so on.

11        Q.   And then a step below that kind of inspection was -- I think the

12     term that you were using was an instructive tour.  Is that the kind of

13     inspection you were able to do in 1992?

14        A.   In late 1991 --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1992.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we started with different kind

17     of activities, a selective approach.  In other words, we sampled the

18     documents to be checked, we did not check the entire documentation.  So

19     this was a kind of an audit that was more of an instructive nature.  It

20     was meant to assist the public security stations, in particular those

21     that did not have the requisite human resources.

22             And let me just tell you this.  On one occasion we were forced to

23     supplement from the police staff, at least partially, the lack of

24     personnel or staff in the crime enforcement service.  So we had to

25     recruit people from the regular uniformed police, and these people did

Page 23354

 1     not have appropriate training and we had to train them.

 2             MR. HANNIS:

 3        Q.   I understand.  I will ask you, Mr. Macar, if you can, try to keep

 4     your answers short and focused on the specific question I've asked,

 5     because I do have limited time.

 6             I want to ask you about the move of the headquarters to

 7     Bijeljina.  Who issued the decision?  Did that come from the minister?

 8        A.   We were notified by the minister and the suggestions of all the

 9     associates were to the effect that in the Sarajevo-Romanija centre area,

10     Sarajevo-Romanija-Birac centre I should say, that it was impossible,

11     primarily in terms of available materiel and equipment, to establish the

12     MUP headquarters.  I am convinced that the minister did not make this

13     decision on his own because, after all, we're talking about the

14     relocation of the ministry headquarters to another town.  So without

15     really consulting the government it would be impossible to effect this

16     kind of a relocation.

17        Q.   You say you were notified.  Was that in person?  In a meeting?

18     Or in writing?  How did you learn about it?

19        A.   Well, I was not -- he did not notify me personally but all the

20     associates who were present in the erstwhile MUP headquarters.  And even

21     before that, I think that the department head checked whether it would be

22     possible to set up the headquarters in Bijeljina technically speaking.

23        Q.   When you say the "department head," who are you referring to

24     there?

25        A.   That's the under-secretary for public security.

Page 23355

 1        Q.   Mr. Kljajic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you recall what date it was that you learned that the MUP

 4     headquarters would be moving to Bijeljina, what month?

 5        A.   As far as I can recall, it was September.

 6        Q.   Was there never a written memo or decision issued?  Did you ever

 7     see anything in writing about that?

 8        A.   Not in writing.  I don't know whether it existed, but I was

 9     notified orally.  And it carried the same weight as a written decision.

10        Q.   I understand.  Wasn't Cedo Kljajic, the under-secretary for

11     public security, already based or stationed in Bijeljina?  I think he was

12     there even in July; is that right?

13        A.   Because of the complexity of the security situation in Bijeljina,

14     Cedo Kljajic spent time in Bijeljina for this reason, above all.  And as

15     far as I can recall, when I was notified about the decision to move the

16     MUP headquarters to Bijeljina, Mr. Cedo Kljajic had already put in place

17     some -- he laid down some groundwork, found some offices, started

18     negotiating with people there, and this was confirmed once we moved

19     there.  There were some offices already there, maybe two or three offices

20     for my service, and then we spread as the organisation was built.

21             Now, as for the details, what Cedo Kljajic was supposed to do, I

22     don't know about that.

23        Q.   Were there any other headquarter-level personnel in Bijeljina

24     before October?  Besides Mr. Kljajic, in July and August, was any other

25     administration heads, assistant ministers located in Bijeljina, do you

Page 23356

 1     remember?

 2        A.   I remember that Mr. Andan, Mr. Vukovic were seconded to Bijeljina

 3     to assist and perhaps someone else.  I can say with some certainty that

 4     the two of them were there and so was Mr. Sinisa Karan.

 5        Q.   How about Tomo Kovac, do you remember when he first went to

 6     Bijeljina?  Wasn't he there in September?

 7        A.   No, I can't really tell you whether that was in late September or

 8     early October.

 9        Q.   There were a lot of -- well, there were several changes in the

10     MUP headquarters personnel around August of 1992, as I recall.  I think

11     Mr. Kusmuk was replaced.  He had been serving as head of the police

12     administration, I think he was replaced and made an advisor to the

13     minister.  Mr. Skipina was replaced and made an advisor.  I think

14     Mr. Draskovic, I'm not sure what he had been doing before, but he became

15     an advisor.  Am I correct about those changes and do you remember any

16     others that happened in August 1992?

17        A.   No, I don't remember.  As you know, in August I had some specific

18     activities to do, and you should really ask this question of somebody

19     from the legal affairs and personnel section in the MUP.  I'm sure that

20     they would be able to give you a better answer.

21        Q.   Did you hear discussed at the collegium or among any of your

22     colleagues these changes and why they had been made?

23        A.   That some preparations were underway in terms of personnel

24     changes in August, well, I was not aware of that.  But as in each

25     organisation, some of the personnel was flagging, some were more

Page 23357

 1     vigorous, and I don't know what the specific plans were.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I want to go to the next topic that you addressed

 3     with Mr. Zecevic last week.  You were asked about your personal

 4     participation in any of these inspection tours.  You mentioned that you

 5     personally toured Doboj in 1992.

 6             Did you write any kind of report yourself in conjunction with any

 7     tours that you took part in?

 8        A.   No.  I was present at a meeting with the centre chief, the chief

 9     of the crime enforcement service, told him why we had come, and then the

10     inspectors had other tasks to perform, to visit the stations and also to

11     control the work of the centre.  And then they wrote reports about what

12     they had done.

13        Q.   So you met with the CSB chief, Mr. Bjelosevic?

14        A.   Well, first I had to learn who the station, or rather, CSB chief

15     was because I did not know Mr. Bjelosevic.  He was the chief of that

16     section and -- or rather, that house, so I had to meet with him.  And I

17     also had to put together this list of stations that I showed you because

18     many of the inspectors did not know about the number of the stations,

19     especially new ones.  So we had to meet the CSB chief and the chief of

20     the crime enforcement section because we had not had an opportunity to

21     actually meet with them face-to-face.

22        Q.   And do you recall, did his deputy, Mr. Milan Savic, attend that

23     meeting?  Did you meet him?

24        A.   I can't recall whether he was there and I really can't recall

25     what Mr. Savic looked like at all.

Page 23358

 1        Q.   I take it you didn't know him before this occasion either?

 2        A.   No.  I didn't know anyone from the Doboj CSB, from the Banja Luka

 3     CSB, and so on.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Or Doboj?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So how long were you personally there then, just the first

 7     day?

 8        A.   I can't really remember.  I would like to see a report specifying

 9     how many days we spent there, but we were not there long.  I remember

10     that in Doboj, as I have already stated I think in another statement, in

11     a partially demolished building because Doboj was shelled constantly.  We

12     slept in a house without windows on iron beds.  And I think that it was

13     about minus 14 or 15 degrees centigrade outside.  It was impossible to

14     actually stay there for any length of time.  I don't think that we were

15     there long.  I would like to see the report, however, to see how many

16     days exactly we spent there.

17        Q.   We'll take a look at a report that's signed by Mr. Minic and a

18     couple other of the inspectors later on, but as I recall, in the report

19     your name is not mentioned.  But did you stay there the same length of

20     time as the inspectors?  I guess that's my question.  You were there the

21     whole time?

22        A.   If I were to see the report, I would be able to say what the plan

23     was.  I think that after that meeting we may have spent a day or two in

24     Doboj and we used this time to visit the stations in Doboj area.  Now,

25     whether I was there five hours or 24 hours ahead of them, I can't really

Page 23359

 1     remember.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, perhaps we can take a look at a report about that.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, this exhibit I think is under seal, so

 4     perhaps we could go into private session while I ask the witness about

 5     it.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  It's Exhibit --

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 23360











11 Pages 23360-23366 redacted. Private session.















Page 23367

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, with all due respect, I think

16     the witness should be given the opportunity to explain his answer.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, he has explained his reasons about

18     that on two other occasions when I showed him two other documents that

19     had similar language, but if you feel it's necessary to hear it,

20     certainly.

21             JUDGE HALL:  No, I was going to say what Mr. Hannis has, in fact,

22     just said.  Having regard to what this witness has said so far, I think

23     Mr. Hannis's response was correct.  And if it is something which you

24     think should be re-opened in re-examination, you would flag it and deal

25     with it accordingly, Mr. Zecevic.

Page 23368

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:

 3        Q.   Mr. Macar, in reviewing reports from inspectors written about

 4     visits to Doboj CSB and/or Teslic SJB, in 1992, did you learn about

 5     certain crimes that had been committed by the group called the Mice in

 6     both Doboj and Teslic in the summer of 1992?

 7        A.   Maybe on the occasion of this visit, but I think that was when we

 8     were visiting the Doboj centre I learned about the problems in Teslic.

 9     After this visit we soon went -- our visit to Doboj.

10        Q.   Did you not hear in 1992 about the alleged role of the CSB Doboj

11     deputy, Mr. Savic, in the conduct of the Mice in Teslic?  You didn't hear

12     any allegations of his involvement of having issued police ID to some of

13     the members of the Mice and being present in Teslic when some of the

14     crimes committed by them were occurring?

15        A.   I'm not familiar with the details of the Mice case, but I know

16     that the members of that group were subject to criminal proceedings.  I

17     would have liked to have had insight in the case so I would be able to

18     discuss it.

19        Q.   Well, I'm curious about your lack of knowledge or insight into

20     that case.  This was -- this was a matter that involved a clash, in a

21     sense, between two CSBs.  Mr. Bjelosevic and I think his deputy were

22     physically arrested and treated roughly by some men I think working with

23     Mr. Predrag Radulovic and some other men from CSB Banja Luka.  And there

24     was a lot of publicity about this.  You're the top man in the crime

25     administration in MUP.  How is it that you don't know more about this?

Page 23369

 1        A.   Your Honours, as I have stated already, from July on, when I was

 2     the highest-ranking official in the crime enforcement administration, for

 3     a month or so, a bit over a month, I was in Bijeljina carrying out

 4     certain tasks.  After that I took steps to relocate the administration

 5     and set up its organisational structure to Bijeljina.  There was a

 6     parallel order from the minister that while we are busy with the

 7     organisational aspect we should also take measures to visit centres at

 8     SJBs.

 9             While visiting the Doboj centre, I learned about the problems in

10     Teslic, that some steps were taken against the Mice group.  Those steps

11     were in accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs and the Law on

12     Criminal Procedure.

13             Insisting on details 19 years later -- well, if my request that I

14     made in 2005 had been accepted to let me study some documents from the

15     archives of crime enforcement, I would have been in the position to be

16     more specific, I would remember more.  But my police service finished in

17     1999.  Since that, I have worked on other jobs that have nothing to do

18     with the police and I really can't remember all details.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honours, I see it's time for our first

20     break.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So we return in 15 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.27 a.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 23370

 1             MR. HANNIS:

 2        Q.   Mr. Macar, I want to ask you about your visit to Banja Luka and

 3     Prijedor in mid-November 1992.  At page 22975 you told us that -- I think

 4     this was the first time you had met the local -- the CSB Banja Luka head

 5     of the crime police; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you explained about how you were there for a meeting that had

 8     been planned to have with the crime police but learned that he didn't

 9     know about the meeting; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you went on to say that after that you went upstairs to see

12     Mr. Zupljanin and ask him if he knew about the meeting and he said

13     something like he was sorry -- actually, he said that he'd forgotten to

14     relate the information to the head of the crime enforcement section.  So

15     you were not able to have the meeting then on that day; right?

16        A.   I don't know if I paraphrased Mr. Zupljanin's words correctly.  I

17     can't confirm this with absolute certainty, whether it was in context,

18     whether there was some kind of a misunderstanding, or whether the chief

19     of the crime enforcement section had not been informed about the dispatch

20     convening the meeting.  Well, probably there is some vanity in all of us,

21     including myself, and Mr. Zupljanin, although he was on his way out of

22     the office, he invited me in and I said, "Thank you, but there are some

23     colleagues in the office of the chief of the crime enforcement section."

24     I went downstairs and I'm sure that I was convinced for at least a month

25     or two and I had some negative energy towards Mr. Zupljanin until I

Page 23371

 1     learned from Mr. Djuro Bulic - I think he was deputy or assistant in the

 2     centre, I can't really recall at the time - and as he was on his way to

 3     Belgrade on some family business, I met him for the first time and I

 4     learned that it was, in fact, his mistake that caused this

 5     misunderstanding or caused this case in which the chief of the crime

 6     enforcement section had not been informed.  And apparently he was absent

 7     because of some family problems in those days when the meeting was to be

 8     held, at least that's how he explained it.  And I could see that there

 9     was no intention to obstruct the meeting.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you a few questions about this because I'm a

11     little confused about exactly how this transpired.  At the time, on the

12     14th of November, 1992, you told us that Mr. Zupljanin said he'd -- he

13     had forgotten to relay the information about the meeting.  And then you

14     go on to say but you found out later that it was Mr. Bulic who actually

15     made the mistake.

16             Why would Mr. Zupljanin say that it was his mistake if it was

17     somebody else's, do you know?

18        A.   Well, probably it was a gentleman's answer, but -- because he

19     didn't want to go into any details.  The gist of this whole thing was

20     that the meeting was not held, and perhaps Mr. Zupljanin checked why the

21     meeting did not take place.  I don't know that.  But all the information

22     that I received at a later date, I received then from Mr. Bulic.

23        Q.   Well, when did you learn this information from Mr. Bulic, what

24     year?

25        A.   I think it was in late 1992.

Page 23372

 1        Q.   And Mr. Bulic is dead now; right?

 2        A.   Yes, unfortunately.

 3        Q.   But in 1992 you were so sure that Mr. Zupljanin had made the

 4     mistake that when you went back to Bijeljina you told Mr. Kovac that you

 5     didn't have the meeting because Mr. Zupljanin had not forwarded the

 6     message; right?

 7        A.   I think that I did react in this way, and after I learned from

 8     Mr. Djuro Bulic about this, I notified Mr. Kovac about this information

 9     that I got.  And this was only natural for me to inform him about this.

10        Q.   Okay.  I understand.  But you remember when you were interviewed

11     by an investigator and a Prosecutor from the OTP in Belgrade in 2006, in

12     February, you remember having that interview with Investigator Nasir and

13     Prosecutor Salvatore Cannata?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   And for my learned friends, that's tab 67.

16             In that interview at page 58, in describing that event, you said

17     you went upstairs to see Zupljanin and ask him whether he knew where the

18     cable was.

19             "He observed his drawer and he looked surprised and he said he

20     forgot to forward it."

21             That's what you said in 2006 with no mention of Mr. Bulic.  Why

22     is that?

23        A.   First of all, during the preparations for the meeting for the

24     conversation, which took an entire day, the interview, rather, I was not

25     able to recall all of the details.  But in 2006 some things remind you of

Page 23373

 1     something else, and I was able to present all this information.  The

 2     style that was used by the investigator's team was a bit strange.  If you

 3     have a document they would show me just a heading or just a first

 4     paragraph, and I did not have a whole document to look at.  Now, whether

 5     I gave them details from where I'm sitting now, whether I said that

 6     Mr. Zupljanin went back to see whether the dispatch was on his table, it

 7     sounds strange to me now that I would recall that detail, that he went

 8     back to look at the dispatch.  But he said something to the effect that

 9     there had been a misunderstanding - I don't know how he phrased it - and

10     that he had not been notified.

11        Q.   Mr. Macar, that sounds like a very specific recollection and one

12     of the reasons that you remember what happened on this date of your

13     meeting in Banja Luka was because it was your birthday; right?

14        A.   The strongest association is the huge amount of anger that the

15     meeting was not held, resentment, because we had gone to Banja Luka to

16     meet with them although it was winter-time and the conditions were

17     difficult.  Once we were in Banja Luka we were not in a position to

18     investigate why the meeting was not held, and now I'm speaking openly why

19     I had this negative attitude towards Mr. Zupljanin for at least a month

20     in my head.  It was until I learned that Mr. Bulic was, in fact, in

21     charge as the assistant or the deputy chief at the time - I can't

22     remember which he was at the time - to do this job.

23        Q.   So sometime between late 1992, when you knew it wasn't

24     Mr. Zupljanin's fault and it was Mr. Bulic's fault, you forgot about it

25     and didn't mention it when you were talking about this event in 2006; is

Page 23374

 1     that right?

 2        A.   Well, it's only natural that I informed my superior that the

 3     meeting had not been held because Mr. Tegeltija, the senior officer, had

 4     not been informed about this document convening the meeting.

 5        Q.   That's not an answer to my question.  My question is:  How is it

 6     that you forgot about it not being Mr. Zupljanin's fault between the end

 7     of 1992 and 2006?  Isn't what's happening here is that now that you're

 8     here testifying in the trial where Mr. Zupljanin is an accused, you don't

 9     want to say anything that makes him look bad if you can help it; right?

10        A.   Your Honours, I take my solemn declaration with all due

11     seriousness, and I'm not here to defend anyone and I'm not here as an

12     accused.  I'm trying to give you the facts that I can remember or based

13     on the documents that are shown to me.  I have no intention to -- to

14     change the facts and to present them in a wrong way, and that's not what

15     I do.  After such a long examination covering a variety of topics and

16     jumping from one detail to another, I tried to reconstruct in my head in

17     2006 and after 2006 -- to reconstruct the time-line of events which would

18     remind me of some problems, or rather, some issues from that period in

19     2006.  And if I had had an opportunity - I'm telling you this now

20     again - I would have been in a position to assist the Prosecution and the

21     Defence even more if I had been able to look at the archive.  And in the

22     archive there should be a report --

23        Q.   A report --

24        A.   -- indicating that we went to Banja Luka and stating why the

25     meeting was not held.

Page 23375

 1        Q.   And that report you wrote at that time would have indicated that

 2     Mr. Zupljanin told you he forgot to forward the memo; right?  That's what

 3     you knew at the time you would have written that report?

 4        A.   Probably in this note stating that the meeting was not held

 5     should contain Mr. Zupljanin's exact words.  Now, from this time

 6     distance, if I were now to paraphrase his words and to tell you whether

 7     he said "white" or "white," it's really difficult for me to say it, what

 8     kind of word for "white" he used in the Serbian language.  But I felt at

 9     the time that it was Mr. Zupljanin's mistake that caused the cancellation

10     of the meeting.  But at a later stage I learned from the man himself who

11     was responsible for this mistake.

12        Q.   Right.  The dead man we can't talk to, Mr. Bulic?

13        A.   The war has had its consequences.  Many people died and we can't

14     talk to Goran.

15        Q.   Right.  And -- but my question is:  In 2006 you remembered it as

16     Mr. Zupljanin, in a very detailed way, opening his drawer and looking

17     surprised and telling you he forgot.  What happened, what changed, since

18     2006 to make you now remember that it was really Mr. Bulic?  Did -- were

19     you shown any document by Mr. Krgovic or Mr. Zecevic during proofing that

20     triggered your memory and helped you remember different?  What happened?

21        A.   No.  Even after this interview in 2006, if you concentrate more

22     on an issue and if you put together a time-line of events, well, I was

23     able to recall - and this has nothing to do with Mr. Stanisic's Defence

24     or Mr. Zecevic's Defence - I recalled that Mr. Zupljanin was also

25     responsible for the mistake, but this mistake was not irreversible and it

Page 23376

 1     was not the kind of a mistake that would call for some really serious

 2     sanctions.  Even if the mistake had been his -- but I can say with

 3     absolute certainty and we can now talk about it in circles, I learned

 4     later that Mr. Djuro Bulic, he actually informed me about it and I felt

 5     sorry.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Okay.  Let me go on then to what happened the next day.

 7     You went to Prijedor the next day to have a meeting there; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, while you were in Banja Luka and seeing the scheduling

10     problem that had occurred, did you call Prijedor and say, "By the way

11     we're coming tomorrow, are you ready for us"?  Did you do that perhaps

12     because you were alerted that maybe there were scheduling problems?

13        A.   No, I did not call Prijedor on the phone or in any other way.

14        Q.   So when you arrived there and you met with Mr. Drljaca, who was

15     with you in your group?  How many of you in total and can you tell me by

16     name who was with you?

17        A.   I think there was Milanovic, Karan, Orasanin.  If I were to look

18     at the archive I would know the exact names because we had travel orders

19     for all the people who travelled.  And I think my administration really

20     kept very complete files and you can tell from those documents who went

21     to Prijedor and who went to other places.

22        Q.   Do you know how Prijedor had been advised about your visit?  Had

23     they been notified that you were coming?

24        A.   They were notified by dispatch.

25        Q.   And I understand that Mr. Drljaca met with you but he wasn't very

Page 23377

 1     welcoming, I guess is the word I would use; right?

 2        A.   At least.

 3        Q.   Yeah, in fact he was --

 4        A.   Well, it's the Serb way to say it.

 5        Q.   Yeah, I would characterise -- he was -- he was rude or

 6     insubordinate -- well, what would you call it?  You were there.

 7        A.   Unprofessional, not unprincipled.

 8        Q.   Very good.  I was hoping to have the opportunity to do that, but

 9     you beat me to the punch.  And you must have been -- you must have been

10     angry and upset about that.  Would you like some more water?

11        A.   I was angry and I was upset.

12        Q.   And I think you said at page 22978 that he told you that his

13     bosses had never told him about the reason for the meeting and, as far as

14     he was concerned, the meeting was over.  Did he -- who did you understand

15     him to mean when he said his bosses never told him what the meeting was

16     supposed to be about?

17        A.   I think I understood it only when he said that the meeting was

18     over and that we could now go and have breakfast.  We went to a club - I

19     think it's called Aeroklub - we had our second coffee of the day, and

20     when I asked him some questions as we talked, I think that he may have

21     been quite clear that he was talking about his municipal bosses.  I know

22     that his comments were to the effect:  Forget about the MUP, the

23     headquarters, and he may even have been more insulting than that.  And I

24     remember that after a few minutes I told him as far as we're concerned

25     this breakfast is over.  We got up and we left for Bijeljina.

Page 23378

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm sorry, small clarification for the transcript

 2     because the witness mentioned "centre" and that is not recorded.  Can you

 3     clarify that with the witness, Mr. Hannis?

 4             MR. HANNIS:

 5        Q.   Did you hear what Mr. Krgovic said, did you mention "centre"?

 6     Did he also say forget about the centre or was he just talking about your

 7     MUP headquarters, if you remember?

 8        A.   It went both for the MUP and for the centre.  I should have given

 9     you the full title, the security services centre in Bijeljina.  And I

10     think that he was --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Banja Luka.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I think he was even more

13     insulting when he spoke about the Banja Luka CSB.

14             MR. HANNIS:

15        Q.   And you said then you went back to Bijeljina.  Did you -- did you

16     call Mr. Zupljanin after this short meeting?  Did you try to call him

17     that day from Prijedor and tell him about what had happened with one of

18     his SJB chiefs?

19        A.   Well, I was offended and angry and humiliated by the fact that

20     the meeting had not been held, and I went back to Bijeljina with my

21     colleagues.  And it was winter-time and it took about ten hours to travel

22     because of the road conditions and also winter problems such as snow and

23     black ice and so on.

24        Q.   But my question was:  Did you call Mr. Zupljanin shortly after

25     that meeting to tell him about what happened, can you remember, yes or

Page 23379

 1     no?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And didn't you go through Banja Luka on your way back to

 4     Bijeljina; isn't that the route you took?

 5        A.   Well, the transit route to Banja Luka is about 10 kilometres.  So

 6     you would have to go to Banja Luka -- in order to go to Banja Luka you

 7     would have to take a detour of about 15 or 20 kilometres, and we did not

 8     go to Banja Luka.  We went straight to Bijeljina because the road didn't

 9     go through Banja Luka.

10        Q.   From Prijedor to Bijeljina you didn't go through Banja Luka; is

11     that what you're saying?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   But you were understandably upset and angry and humiliated.  You

14     and three other inspectors had come all the way from Bijeljina at

15     great -- well, costs money to do that, you took your time, it was cold

16     and miserable winter weather and a long drive, and you weren't angry

17     enough to take the 15-kilometre detour to go tell Mr. Drljaca's CSB chief

18     about what he had done?  Did you think about doing that?

19        A.   Not in that situation, but I thought that I would report to the

20     public security department head who had jurisdiction over the chiefs of

21     both the CSBs and the SJBs.

22        Q.   Didn't you even think about stopping in Banja Luka, if not to

23     tell Mr. Zupljanin about it, to use the phone there to call Mr. Kovac and

24     complain to him and see if he wanted to perhaps have you stick around

25     while he sorted things out with Mr. Drljaca?  Did you think about doing

Page 23380

 1     that?

 2        A.   Your Honours, the Prosecutor probably forgot that we had planned

 3     to remain in the field based on the materiel and equipment that we had.

 4     We had to adapt.  And if we planned for a two-day trip, and if we took

 5     enough food for two days, and if one day was supposed to be in Banja Luka

 6     and the other day in Prijedor, you took with you only enough of the food

 7     and clothes and so on for this kind of a trip.  And if you were to stay

 8     there for five or six days until an agreement was reached between

 9     somebody in Bijeljina and somebody in Banja Luka, well, it was

10     impossible.  We always had limited time --

11        Q.   I'm sorry, I wasn't asking you about that.  I was only asking you

12     if you didn't think about stopping in Banja Luka, taking that

13     15-, 20-kilometre detour that you mentioned, to report this humiliating,

14     aggravating event as soon as possible to Mr. Kovac.  Did you think about

15     doing that and why didn't you?  That's all I'm asking.

16        A.   I don't see how that would have changed the situation.  If I had

17     called him up, he would certainly have answered, Write a report about

18     both cases.  And on the following morning he had it on his desk.

19        Q.   Okay.  So you did write a report about it?

20        A.   An Official Note that the meeting did not take place.  That was

21     made about both meetings and it can be found in the archives of crime

22     enforcement.  Apart from Mr. Kovac, there must have been somebody else

23     present and I briefed him that the meeting did not take place and gave

24     him all the information available to me at the time.

25        Q.   You don't have a copy of that Official Note that you wrote, do

Page 23381

 1     you?

 2        A.   As I have already said, I'm not a person who has a private

 3     archive containing MUP documentation.

 4        Q.   Well, I know that, but you did present us a couple of documents

 5     while you were here so I thought maybe given the personal humiliation

 6     associated with this event that you might have had a copy of this one.

 7     But I understand that you don't.  What date was that written?  Was that

 8     written the very next day?  Was that written on the 15th or the

 9     16th of November, do you remember?

10        A.   Immediately upon returning in the morning hours.  And as for the

11     archives, the document from 2005 is from my private archive which I sent

12     to the MUP.  Among the documents I kept there is the list of stations,

13     and that's all I have.

14        Q.   Okay.  Was what Mr. Drljaca did, was that a disciplinary offence

15     in the Ministry of the Interior in 1992?  That's something he could be

16     punished for; right?

17        A.   Mr. Drljaca committed a misdemeanour.

18        Q.   Okay.  After you submitted your Official Note, did you ever

19     inquire or do any follow-up to see if anything had been done about that

20     to Mr. Drljaca?

21        A.   As administration chief, I -- and I mean the crime enforcement

22     administration, I didn't follow what steps my colleague was taking

23     against people from his jurisdiction.  At the time when I travelled,

24     there were already ideas in the leadership of the ministry to remove

25     Mr. Drljaca.  But for political reasons, that is, the influence of the

Page 23382

 1     municipal authorities, it was not possible until the preconditions were

 2     created in order to avoid incidents, possible incidents.

 3        Q.   And Mr. Drljaca stayed on in Prijedor as the SJB chief until the

 4     end of 1992, didn't he?

 5        A.   I think so.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And in early 1993 he actually was appointed to a position

 7     in the Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   I don't know what his status was and I rarely had the opportunity

 9     to see him.  As far as I remember, Mr. Drljaca was not at the

10     headquarters in Bijeljina in 1993.

11        Q.   Are you sure about that?  Are you sure about that?

12        A.   To the best of my recollection, in 1993, and I'm referring to

13     early 1993, I did not see him around.  And I don't recall to which

14     position he was appointed.

15        Q.   Well, you said 1993 and now you've changed it to early 1993.

16     What about late 1993, you don't remember seeing him in headquarters at

17     collegium meetings?

18        A.   In late 1993 he may have attended collegium meetings, but I can't

19     be sure unless I see the minutes.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's take a look at Prosecution tab 120, this is

21     65 ter 20218.

22             Sorry, Mr. Macar, I don't have a hard copy in B/C/S.  But you'll

23     see the front page of this document, it's minutes of an expanded session

24     of the expert collegium on 10 and 11 November 1993 in Pale, and

25     apparently also in Bijeljina on the 12th.

Page 23383

 1             MR. HANNIS:  And if we could go to page 4 of the English and I'm

 2     not sure if it's page 2 or 3 in the B/C/S.  We have a list of people

 3     attending.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC:  Maybe it will assist.  I have a hard copy of this

 5     document because --

 6             MR. HANNIS:  That's fine.  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, we are advised that there is no English

 9     translation of this document.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I just got in an e-mail attachment

11     this morning a draft translation.  I don't know -- it's ET 02970848 but I

12     don't know if it's been uploaded into e-court yet, because I just got a

13     copy from my investigator who forwarded it to me this morning.  But for

14     present purposes I may be able to do what I need to do with the witness

15     and you'll see the translation later if that's okay with you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

18             I think I need to go another page on the B/C/S.  And one more.

19     Yes.

20        Q.   Do you see that page, Mr. Macar, that lists the people attending

21     the meeting?

22        A.   I'm looking at it.

23        Q.   My English translation says at the session on 10 December --

24     10 November 1993, Dragan Kijac presided; on 11 November 1993, the acting

25     minister Tomo Kovac; the following people were present.  There's a list

Page 23384

 1     of names including yours, Goran Macar, as an assistant to the minister.

 2     And further down we see Simo Drljaca, chief of the department for public

 3     relations.

 4             Does that refresh your memory about whether or not you were at a

 5     meeting with Mr. Drljaca in late 1993?

 6        A.   I can see the list of attendees.

 7        Q.   Yes, but --

 8        A.   And I can see that my name is on the list.  I might even remember

 9     the details.  If I could read the --

10        Q.   Well, I'm -- I'll certainly --

11        A.   -- the agenda --

12        Q.   -- let you take it with you during the break if you want, but I'm

13     not interested in the agenda.  I'm just interested if you recall being

14     present at a meeting with Mr. Drljaca in the collegium in 1993.  And

15     seeing that now, does that refresh your memory?

16        A.   It does.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   On one of the following pages, when I read what I said, that

19     corroborates what I said in my previous reply.  It is very difficult to

20     send out an operative because of the shortage of materiel and technical

21     equipment and -- yes, I was probably there.

22        Q.   Yes.  And precisely you're talking about that problem of how

23     difficult it is because you don't have the finances and the resources to

24     send somebody out.  And this meeting is, like, one or two days before the

25     one-year anniversary of your humiliating experience with Mr. Drljaca and

Page 23385

 1     you're sitting in a meeting with him.  You must still be angry about that

 2     a year later.  And didn't that cause you to perhaps ask Mr. Kovac or

 3     somebody, Hey, whatever happened?  How come this guy hasn't been

 4     disciplined for what he did to us back in November 1992?  That cost you a

 5     lot of time and money and aggravation.

 6        A.   Since a personnel policy wasn't under my jurisdiction nor was I

 7     able to launch proceedings against Drljaca, and I mean disciplinary

 8     proceedings, you would probably have to ask somebody else about why he

 9     was present at this meeting, possibly his administration chief.

10        Q.   But this didn't cause you to follow-up and ask Mr. Kovac or

11     anybody, Whatever happened to my Official Note and was there any

12     investigation taken or any discipline launched?  You didn't inquire at

13     that time?  Or did you think it would be useless?

14        A.   No, I didn't inquire.  Because that's part of the jurisdiction of

15     the chief of public security and that's my superior.  And then there's

16     somebody who is his superior.  So it wasn't up to me to inquire why

17     Mr. Drljaca was at that meeting.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I know that it's time for the break,

20     but before the witness goes out, with your permission and if there's no

21     objection from the Defence, I'd like to hand the witness a B/C/S hard

22     copy of Exhibit L032.  This is from the law library, it's the

23     Law on State Administration, and ask him if during this recess or the

24     next recess he might have a chance to look at it because I had asked him

25     previously if he could point to me where in the Law on Administration

Page 23386

 1     there is a provision that says a municipal assembly or an executive

 2     committee cannot pass its own ordinance when there is other law in place.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Actually, Mr. Hannis, in light of the fact that the

 4     first break was well in excess of 15 minutes, I was - unless the witness

 5     has a problem - going to see if we could go to 11.30.  We should be just

 6     about three minutes more than the hour after we resumed at 10.27.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

 8        Q.   Witness, did you hear that?  Are you able to carry on for about

 9     13 or 14 more minutes?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let us know if that changes.  All right.

12             Speaking of discipline, do you recall what year Mr. Todorovic was

13     removed in -- from his position in Bosanski Samac?

14        A.   Maybe in late 1992 or early 1993.  That too is a question for the

15     legal and personnel department of the MUP.

16        Q.   You were asked and told us about the award you got.  I can't

17     remember the name now.  I think it was the Star of Karadjordjevic.  Is

18     that right?  What was the name of the award that you got?

19        A.   The Karadjordje Star of the second order.

20        Q.   You're aware that Mr. Todorovic got an award at the same time?

21     Did you know about that?

22        A.   No, I didn't.  But I knew that many people did.  It was explained

23     to me that sometimes there were good intentions behind some deviations.

24     So some people could be put on such lists by local government bodies

25     although they don't deserve it.  The original idea was to award

Page 23387

 1     decorations to those with special merits for the Republika Srpska and

 2     those fallen in the war.  We had many people who had gotten killed,

 3     hundreds of wounded, and a considerable number of seriously disabled

 4     members of our service.

 5             Whether or not Mr. Todorovic or anybody else was decorated --

 6     well, I didn't really care much about my own decoration either, so I

 7     didn't pay attention to who was.  I still consider myself unworthy of

 8     that decoration.  I thought -- I think that others were much more

 9     deserving to receive one.

10        Q.   I understand.  You told us about that before.  Did you -- did you

11     know that Mr. Koroman also got the same award that you did?  Were you

12     aware of that?

13        A.   As I have just said, I had my own attitude toward these

14     decorations, and I knew that some people were proposed due to strictly

15     private reasons according to information I had from the field.  So I

16     didn't care who received one or who didn't.  That's why I can't comment

17     on anybody else receiving or not receiving one.

18        Q.   Well, I'll ask you one more.  You know Mr. Drljaca got the

19     Karadjordjevic Star first class.  He was one of only five people, and I

20     take it that's -- or one of seven people.  That's -- I guess that's one

21     level above your award, and I take it you wouldn't feel very happy about

22     that; right?  Not only did he not get disciplined for how he treated you,

23     he got a higher award.  That doesn't seem right; do you agree?

24        A.   My position on decorations is clear.  I have already stated my

25     reasons.

Page 23388

 1        Q.   Okay.  Did you know that Mr. Planojevic who was named for an

 2     award said he wrote and requested that he not get it because I think he

 3     had a similar attitude to yours?  You didn't make that kind of request,

 4     did you?

 5        A.   I didn't even know I had been proposed.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Yesterday we talked a little bit about the prisoners in

 7     Prijedor and Omarska and Manjaca and Trnopolje.  Tell me, in August of

 8     1992, Milos Zuban, what position did he hold in the ministry?

 9        A.   He was a senior officer in the police administration.

10        Q.   Now, we saw --

11        A.   I don't remember his exact rank, I mean how high up he was in the

12     hierarchy.

13        Q.   Okay.  And did you know an inspector who worked for him, an

14     inspector named Sreto Gajic?

15        A.   Sreto Gajic was a member of the police administration.

16        Q.   We saw earlier this morning that -- a report where there were

17     inspectors from your crime administration and one inspector from the

18     police administration that did a joint report, because there's some

19     overlap in your work between those two administrations.  Did you share

20     information with the police administration and vice versa, did they share

21     information with you on a regular basis?

22        A.   There probably was information flow, but I'm not aware of the

23     details.  Probably only information that was relevant for the other

24     administration was passed on.

25        Q.   Okay.  That makes sense.  We have in evidence a report from the

Page 23389

 1     5th of August by Mr. Gajic to Mr. Zuban, it's P631, not on my list, I

 2     don't intend to show it, in which he said that the SJB Prijedor had set

 3     aside 300 police employees for securing the camps in Keraterm, Omarska,

 4     and Trnopolje where war prisoners were held.

 5             Now, I know in early August you were busy with the Yellow Wasps

 6     for some time, but did this matter never come to your attention, either

 7     from Mr. Zuban or in collegiums or at briefings held at the ministry?

 8     You never heard about this in 1992?

 9        A.   That is a job of the police.  I'm not familiar with any details

10     of their work.  I wasn't aware of these instances.  I didn't interfere

11     with their daily work that had nothing to do with crime enforcement.

12        Q.   Did you ever hear any information that crime police were involved

13     in operative interviews of persons detained in any of those camps?  Isn't

14     that something that would have come to your attention?

15        A.   In 1993 I did have information, especially after some meetings

16     held in September 1993, but even before that, that the crime police had

17     interviewed some persons suspected of crimes.

18        Q.   And that -- you only learned about that in September 1993?

19     That's the first time it came to your attention?

20        A.   I think so.  I did have some information, not detailed though,

21     toward the end of the first quarter of 1993; but I got more information

22     in September of that year.

23        Q.   Okay.  You don't recall this problem of, in Prijedor,

24     300 policemen being taken away from regular police work to guard

25     prisoners?  That never came up in either the collegiums or briefings that

Page 23390

 1     you had in the ministry, because you've told us one of the big problems

 2     and consistent problems was a shortage of personnel.  You must have heard

 3     about this.  300 is a lot of guys that could be doing something else.

 4        A.   I don't remember when it was discussed individually at station

 5     collegiums.  Certainly there were minutes made at each such meeting and

 6     one would have to consult these minutes.  I know that there was

 7     discussion on several occasions about the unrational use of the police by

 8     Crisis Staffs.  But when I learned and how I learned about the case of

 9     Prijedor -- by the way, the figure -- I haven't heard the figure

10     300 before now.  And -- but as for Samac, I know that pursuant to a

11     decision by the Crisis Staff, the police had to guard collection centres.

12     It's difficult for me to make any deeper-going comments.  It would be

13     easier if I could look at some documents.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you, Mr. Macar.  I think it's time for our next

15     break.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, and we return in 15 minutes.

17             MR. HANNIS:  May I hand the witness this document?

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  The Law on State Administration --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you have the Law on

21     Local Administration, that would also be nice, local administration and

22     self government.

23             MR. HANNIS:

24        Q.   Okay.  I don't have that right now.  I don't know if it's in our

25     law library.  I'll look for it, and if I do, we'll get it to you the next

Page 23391

 1     break or at the end of the day.  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.50 a.m.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, while the witness is ushered in, I

 6     made an informal inquiry about the position of the parties and the

 7     Trial Chamber about the scheduling of -- for Tuesday next week.  And I

 8     ask that for personal reasons we start --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we've seen it.  We have no difficulty with

10     that.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.  I appreciate that.  Thank

12     you.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE HALL:  For the record, Mr. Zecevic, the -- what we would

15     say is that we would -- the Tuesday sitting would commence at 9.30 rather

16     than 9.00.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.  I understand that.  Thank you.

18             MR. HANNIS:

19        Q.   Mr. Macar, I want to now show you document 1D643.  That's tab 84

20     in your binder, the Defence binder.

21        A.   Would you please repeat the number.

22        Q.   84.  This is dated 29th of October from Inspector Goran Saric and

23     Inspector Ostoja Minic, and it's about the event where a couple of police

24     inspectors were taken into custody by military personnel.  What did you

25     do with this document after you received it?  I see it's addressed to

Page 23392

 1     both you -- the assistant minister for crime prevention, which at that

 2     time would have been you, and the assistant minister for police.  What

 3     did you do with it when you got it?  Did you forward it on to the

 4     minister?

 5        A.   The head of the public security department was notified about

 6     this as the immediate superior.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Do you know if he forwarded it on to the minister?  Did

 8     you ever hear anything about that?

 9        A.   I did not know that and I was not in a position to check on my

10     superior to find out whether he had forwarded a document or not.

11        Q.   And you didn't hear it discussed in a collegium or a briefing

12     after this that would indicate that the minister was aware of it; is that

13     right?

14        A.   I don't remember whether this was an item on the agenda of the

15     collegium without the minutes.  It may have been, and if I were to be

16     shown the minutes indicating that this was indeed discussed ...

17        Q.   I hope we'll have an opportunity to look at collegium minutes for

18     subsequent meetings, November and December.  But for now, my questions

19     are based on your answers at page 22984, on the 7th of July, when you

20     said you were familiar with this document, and when Mr. Zecevic asked you

21     the question:

22             "Was this report meant for the RS government?"

23             You said:

24             "Yes, it was meant for the government."

25             And you went on to say:

Page 23393

 1             "It was only natural to expect that the prime minister would take

 2     this up with his defence minister.  The interior minister would be

 3     summoned too, and then they would get in touch with the leaders of the

 4     VRS to resolve these problems."

 5             But my question is:  How could you expect it to get to the

 6     defence minister or the prime minister if you don't even know whether it

 7     got to your interior minister?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know if I was specific enough then but let me try

 9     to paraphrase now.  The incidents that occurred between the

10     Republika Srpska army and the Republika Srpska police were reported in an

11     aggregate report to the department heads and then upwards to the

12     government, and the local stations and the CSBs reported to the local

13     command, whether it was the police of the corps or any other unit that

14     was there.  And there were a lot of incidents; they occurred frequently.

15        Q.   I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say incidents

16     that occurred between the army and the police "were reported in an

17     aggregate report to the department heads ..."

18             Which department heads?  Are you talking about department heads

19     of the police?  Is that what you meant there?

20        A.   Each local incident that occurred which was caused by the

21     military against the police, the SJBs and the CSBs reported such

22     incidents to the relevant military unit commands.  And this was discussed

23     at the government sessions because they also received reports about that.

24     And the minister or whoever stood in for him at the meeting would inform

25     the government about those incidents.

Page 23394

 1        Q.   Who sent the reports to the government?

 2        A.   From the public security department it was whoever was in charge

 3     of writing those reports.  It's difficult for me to say who it was, and

 4     in the -- in the public security department -- in the sphere of public

 5     security, it was the public security department.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to repeat his

 7     answer.

 8             MR. HANNIS:

 9        Q.   The interpreters ask, Mr. Macar, if you could repeat your last

10     answer slowly, please.

11        A.   For all the problems related to the public security, it was the

12     public security department that put together the data for the minister,

13     the reports.  It was either for his information or the information that

14     was to be relayed to other organs or to the Republika Srpska army.

15             MR. HANNIS:  I see Mr. Zecevic on his feet.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe the witness said -- didn't mention

17     Republika Srpska army, but something else.

18             MR. HANNIS:

19        Q.   Mr. Macar, the last part of your answer is recorded as:

20             "It was either for his information," I think that means the

21     minister, "or the information that was to be relayed to other organs or

22     to the Republika Srpska army."

23             Mr. Zecevic thinks you said something else there instead of

24     "army."  Can you help us?

25        A.   The government, the Republika Srpska government.

Page 23395

 1        Q.   But I'm afraid I still don't see how this report signed by

 2     Mr. Saric and Mr. Minic, which is addressed to you and you counterpart in

 3     the administration for police gets on to the government.  I don't see any

 4     address or delivery information, and I think you told me just now that

 5     you forwarded it on to the under-secretary for public security, but how

 6     does it get to the government from there, or do you know if it did?

 7        A.   This is a question that should be put to the head of the public

 8     security department.  And as I have already noted several times, the

 9     signature shows that two administrations were involved here:  The regular

10     police administration and an inspector from the crime enforcement

11     section.  The information that contained not only these data but also

12     other data that were obtained from the public security centre were all

13     amalgamated and submitted to the head of the public security department

14     who was in charge -- or rather, who dealt with the public security

15     issues.

16        Q.   And in late October 1992 that was who?

17        A.   I think that it was Mr. Cedo Kljajic.  I can't really be certain

18     about that, but I think it was still him.

19        Q.   Okay.  Could we next have a look at 1D644.  Mr. Macar, this is

20     Defence tab 99 in your binder.  Mr. Zecevic, I think, showed you this

21     one.  And I have a few questions on it.  This is a report written by

22     Mr. Minic.  It's dated 8th March 1993.  And on the first page we see the

23     number of this one is 02-36/93.  So as I understand the numbering system,

24     this would have been the 36th one from the crime administration in 1993;

25     is that right?

Page 23396

 1        A.   It may be the 36th report.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And this was about certain negative activities of

 3     personnel in the Pale SJB during the period from April to December 1992.

 4     We've talked a little bit before about Mr. Koroman.  Do you remember

 5     seeing this document before?  Have you had a chance to look through the

 6     whole thing?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And there are certain allegations against Mr. Koroman and against

 9     the station commander Mr. Skobo about how they dealt with seized property

10     and how they failed to take appropriate procedure in connection with the

11     investigation in one particular homicide.

12             Again, in your view, were these the types of conduct that could

13     or should result in disciplinary action against those two?

14        A.   According to the standard operating procedures, if the ministry

15     gathered information that there were some problems in the work of the --

16     of a station, of the Pale public security station -- or rather, after

17     this was ascertained, the -- an inspector from the crime enforcement

18     section was dispatched to inspect some aspects of the work of the

19     Pale public security station.  And on that occasion, he stated in his

20     report all the things that he had observed.

21        Q.   Okay.

22        A.   If I may just add, this report, you can see who the recipients

23     were and a copy of this report was also sent to the Sarajevo public

24     security centre in order for them to be able to verify this information.

25        Q.   Okay.  That takes me to my next question.  You're on that page,

Page 23397

 1     6, in the B/C/S; it's page 14 in the English.  The people this report

 2     were delivered to, number 1 says the minister.  Now, I know in

 3     March of 1993 that was not Mr. Stanisic, that was somebody else.  Do you

 4     know who the minister was then?

 5        A.   I think in 1993 it was Mr. Ratko Adzic, if I'm not mistaken.

 6        Q.   And I understand he was in the beginning of 1993.  I didn't know

 7     how long he was in the position.  But I'm curious, this report signed by

 8     Mr. Minic from your administration is delivered to the minister and to

 9     you, the assistant minister for crime.  In other reports from 1992, I

10     don't see them addressed to the minister.  Was there a change in protocol

11     after Mr. Adzic became minister or is Mr. Minic doing something unusual?

12     Can you comment on that?  Was this standard procedure in 1993, to send a

13     report like this directly to the minister as well as to you?

14        A.   I think that the information about some deviant forms of conduct

15     had come from the minister.

16        Q.   No.  But maybe -- maybe you didn't understand my question.

17     Mr. Minic has addressed a copy of this report directly to the minister,

18     and in 1992 - seeing similar reports - they don't go directly to the

19     minister.  Has something changed or am I mistaken about the protocol?

20        A.   No, nothing changed in the protocol when it came to the

21     correspondence conducted by the administration.  If I may just clarify.

22        Q.   Yes, please.

23        A.   As regards the administration's correspondence towards the

24     minister about the specific tasks that were ordered by the minister to

25     any of the administrations, the reports were to be sent to whoever issued

Page 23398

 1     the order - in this case it was the minister - also to notify the head of

 2     the public security department about the report, and here it says the

 3     Sarajevo public security station because the -- or rather, centre in

 4     Sarajevo because the station was located in its area.  And if I may just

 5     add, it seems to me that at the time when Mr. Hadzic came, there were

 6     some misunderstandings about the public security department and some

 7     posts.

 8        Q.   I know when it was that I was thinking of.  In 1992 we've seen

 9     some reports from your inspectors and from other inspectors I think from

10     the police administration where on the signature page there's no

11     addressee information.  And it was explained a couple of times that there

12     would normally be a cover sheet or a cover letter which would have that

13     information on it.  Was that the standard protocol in 1992, that there

14     was a separate cover sheet with the delivery information?

15        A.   Under the rules there should be a cover letter, but this was also

16     done in practice if the report was to be submitted urgently, if time was

17     of the essence.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now I want to ask you a little bit about the

19     Yellow Wasps.  At page 23001, Mr. Zecevic was asking you about whether

20     you had the information on the actions of the man nicknamed Repic.  This

21     is Dusan Vukovic, the brother of Zuco, Vojin Vukovic.  And in your answer

22     you said:

23             "Information on the war crimes committed by Dusan Vukovic was

24     available to both the public security stations and to the national

25     security.  All of this information was forwarded to the military police

Page 23399

 1     and they pressed the matter forward with the military prosecutor."

 2             So it sounds like your police and state security, whatever

 3     information they got in the investigation, they shared with the military

 4     investigators.  Was that a two-way communication, do you know?  Did the

 5     military police, did their investigators, interviewers, share information

 6     they got from the Yellow Wasps with you, in the police?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   But you did have information from your own guys, didn't you, that

 9     Mr. Dusan Vukovic, also known as Repic, had killed a number of non-Serbs,

10     Muslims, who were detained at Celopek Dom in Zvornik?  You did have that

11     information; right?

12        A.   When I came there to work on the Yellow Wasps case, the reports

13     about the crimes committed by this person were not in the operational

14     materials that we had managed to collect, the operational materials

15     indicating that this man, Repic, committed crimes in an area.  He was a

16     member of the army, and from the materials that I found I could not find

17     any reports in them to that effect.

18        Q.   I don't understand.  Your answer recorded at page 23001, line 15,

19     says:

20             "Information on the war crimes committed by Dusan Vukovic was

21     available to both the public security stations and to the national

22     security."

23             So did you or did you not know about the allegations of murders

24     of detained Muslims at Celopek Dom by Mr. Vukovic and some of his

25     associates in the Yellow Wasps?  You did know about that in August 1992,

Page 23400

 1     didn't you?

 2        A.   In August 1992, the segments of the public security dealt with

 3     other structures of crimes, while the military police dealt with the war

 4     crimes based on the information that they had.

 5        Q.   Are you saying your answer that you gave on Friday last week is

 6     incorrect, the one I've read to you twice now?  Are you saying you didn't

 7     know of any information about any war crimes committed by Repic?  You

 8     didn't know about the Muslims at Celopek?

 9        A.   No, I did not know where Celopek was at all.

10        Q.   That wasn't my question.  You didn't know --

11        A.   When I arrived in Bijeljina on the 3rd of August, I did not have

12     any information about the activities and the commission of war crimes by

13     Mr. Repic, whatever his name is.

14        Q.   Okay.  So when you arrived you didn't have that information, but

15     interviews were done with several members of the Yellow Wasps by both

16     military police and by regular police on the 3rd of August and the

17     4th of August.  And you sent a report later on to the minister which

18     lists as an attachment something like 65 or 69 statements.  Didn't you

19     have in those 60-some statements information indicating that Mr. Vukovic,

20     Dusan, also known as Repic, had killed a number of detained Muslims, had

21     committed a war crime?  Are you saying that you didn't know that in

22     August 1992?

23        A.   Sir, during my work if there was information pointing to the

24     commission of a war crime by the person mentioned, it was normal to

25     forward that to the military organs.  And now talking about

Page 23401

 1     70 statements, I would like to be reminded whether there was such

 2     information in any of those statements.  There was a strict division.

 3     War crimes were dealt with by military bodies, police, and the judiciary.

 4        Q.   Please stop.  My question was whether you personally, Mr. Macar,

 5     had information that Repic, Mr. Vukovic, Dusan, had committed murders and

 6     mutilations and similar war crimes against detained non-Serbs, whether

 7     that was from reading some of the statements or from talking to the

 8     investigators or standing around in the police station and hearing other

 9     people talk about it, did you not become aware in August 1992 of that

10     fact?  And you don't need to look at the statements right now to tell me

11     whether you remember hearing about it or not.  Did you or didn't you?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Perhaps the witness can take these -- his phones

13     off.

14             Your Honours, with all due respect, when I was -- when I was

15     directing -- when I was performing the direct examination of the witness,

16     I showed him the document, and the document is 1D75.  And I believe

17     Mr. Hannis is now going around that document and trying to confuse the

18     witness.  That is my opinion.  If, if, Mr. Hannis wants to -- because he

19     was -- he was citing the part -- the part of his answer after the witness

20     commented on the whole document.  So perhaps the witness does not

21     understand what Mr. Hannis is trying to do at this point and I think --

22             JUDGE HALL:  To the extent that you may be correct, Mr. Zecevic,

23     what I understood, and Mr. Hannis would tell me if I got it wrong, is

24     that apart from his preliminary remarks about the document, what he ended

25     up with was a specific question which admitted of a -- yes or no answer,

Page 23402

 1     and perhaps to the extent, as you say, the witness may have been confused

 2     because of the context of this reference to the document, Mr. Hannis

 3     could be invited to ask the question again for what would be the third

 4     time directly, separated from everything else.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Macar, I'm just trying to ask you as you sit here right now,

 8     can you tell us whether in August of 1992, from whatever source, did you

 9     know or did you not know about the allegations of Dusan Vukovic, also

10     known as Repic, having killed and mutilated a number of non-Serb

11     detainees in the area of Zvornik?

12        A.   Upon arrival in Bijeljina, I learned that Repic had committed war

13     crimes in the Zvornik municipality, which was why he was taken over by

14     the military police and the military judiciary bodies to process -- or to

15     be processed.  Whether some of these 70 or 80 or 100 statements there was

16     information pointing to any specific crime committed by Repic is

17     something I don't remember.  But if so, that same material was forwarded

18     to the military police because they had jurisdiction over such cases.  I

19     believe this is clear enough.

20        Q.   Didn't you tell your inspectors not to inquire into those war

21     crimes or those killings?

22        A.   Your Honours, ever since I became a police officer, I have never

23     instigated anybody to commit a crime or to cover up one.  And that's the

24     way it is today too.

25        Q.   No, but didn't you tell your inspectors to only ask questions

Page 23403

 1     about the car thefts and the property crimes, the stolen Golfs?  Isn't

 2     that what you told your inspectors?

 3        A.   The inspectors received basic information and part of the SJB

 4     assisted by the crime enforcement administration was to work on solving

 5     these crimes.  Nobody issued an order to any crime police officer to ask

 6     any arrested person about war crimes [as interpreted].

 7        Q.   I'm not sure your answer's been properly recorded.  It says --

 8     you said:

 9             "Nobody issued an order to any crime police officer to ask any

10     arrested person about war crimes."

11             Is that what you meant to say?

12        A.   No order was issued not to ask or interview people about war

13     crimes.  I believe I was clear in the first place.

14        Q.   I thought that's probably what you intended to say, but that's

15     not what I read.  Sorry, I had to clear it up.

16             Isn't it a fact that the RS leadership was more interested in

17     prosecuting those crimes involving the seized Golfs than prosecuting any

18     Serbs for crimes against non-Muslims?

19        A.   If you're referring to the Yellow Wasps case, then I don't

20     understand how you arrive at your conclusion.  I did not arrive at the

21     same conclusion nor did I have orders or suggestions from anybody to

22     treat crimes against one ethnicity in one way and crimes against another

23     ethnicity in another way.  I repeat, from nobody did I receive such

24     orders and there were the heads of departments above me or -- and the

25     minister and there weren't lateral influences from political circles

Page 23404

 1     either.  I did not receive information to the effect that anybody from

 2     the highest leadership of the RS exerted such influence on CSBs or SJBs.

 3        Q.   Did you -- you probably haven't heard this, but I'll ask you

 4     anyway.  Were you aware that Dr. Karadzic had said to Mico Davidovic

 5     early in the war in the presence of General Mladic when the issue was

 6     being discussed about primarily a lot of looting that was going on by

 7     Serb -- Bosnian Serb forces, Mr. Karadzic said that it would really be

 8     better if Serbs were not arresting Serbs for crimes against non-Muslims?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have the reference and the basis for this

10     question.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Well, that's in the record in Mr. Davidovic's

12     testimony.

13        Q.   Did you hear about that?  Did you hear anything like that

14     reflecting that attitude of Mr. Karadzic?

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mr. Hannis, are you sure this is the evidence of

16     Mr. Mico Davidovic in our case or are you referring to some other case

17     perhaps?

18             MR. HANNIS:  I'm referring to this case in either his 92 ter

19     package and/or his transcript.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if that meeting took

21     place because I didn't attend.  And in the month of August, I did not

22     receive information from Mr. Davidovic to the effect that anybody exerted

23     influence on him or demanded that he act unprofessionally.  Although,

24     Mr. Davidovic is not privy to the work of the crime police.

25        Q.   Had you ever met Mr. Davidovic before August 1992 when you went

Page 23405

 1     to Bijeljina to work on the Yellow Wasps case?

 2        A.   I think I saw him at Vrace, but I didn't know his name or who he

 3     was.  But I think when I saw him in Bijeljina again I recognised him and

 4     it was Mr. Davidovic.  And I met part of the unit led by him.

 5     99 per cent of them were people who hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 6     maybe a couple who hailed from Croatia.  They were federal MUP personnel.

 7     Mr. Davidovic is probably a specialist in something else and that is

 8     special operations.  This was a special unit of the federal MUP which had

 9     been trained for special situations in peace time, but on that one

10     occasion in Bijeljina, he assisted the regular police in creating a

11     better security environment.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   In August I never heard that anybody --

14        Q.   You've said that.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, but the witness just -- just started

16     saying in that period "I haven't heard anybody ..." and then you stopped

17     him.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Well, he already answered my question and said:

19             "In the month of August I did not receive information from

20     Mr. Davidovic to the effect that anybody exerted influence on him or

21     demanded that he act unprofessionally ."

22             I take it his answer is he never heard what I've suggested was

23     said.  I accept that.

24             And for the record, the transcript that I was referring to is at

25     page number 13611.

Page 23406

 1        Q.   You said here at page 23002 that apparently Mr. Andan and

 2     Mr. Davidovic before you got there had reached some kind of agreement

 3     with the military police and military prosecutor about how the

 4     investigative work was going to be divided up.  When was the first time

 5     you ever told anybody about that?  Because I don't see it in your OTP

 6     interview from 2006 or I don't believe it's in your March 2011 e-mail.

 7        A.   My comment after the report on the Yellow Wasps case was that we

 8     were dealing with crimes against property, as it were, and it was me who

 9     decided -- or if it had been me who decided against who to file criminal

10     complaints, I would have assisted the military bodies and that the

11     criminal complaint would have been submitted to the military prosecutor's

12     office instead of the civilian prosecutor's office because there were

13     VRS members among the perpetrators.  That was my comment.

14        Q.   Okay.  What information did you have or what documents did you

15     see that indicated to you that Dusan Vukovic was a member of the

16     military?  Or did somebody just tell you that?

17        A.   The military police wouldn't have taken him over if he hadn't

18     been a military person.

19        Q.   Yes, but my question is:  What document did you see or did you

20     see any document?  Or are you just assuming that he must have been in the

21     army because the military police took him over?

22        A.   It can be seen from many statements that they were a military

23     unit in Zvornik.  I did not check on Repic directly.  I didn't look for

24     his military booklet or any document assigning him to a military unit.  I

25     don't remember seeing anything like that.

Page 23407

 1        Q.   Do you recall seeing one of the interviews that was done with him

 2     where he stated that he had been kicked out of the military service some

 3     years before because of his drug problem and his psychological problems.

 4     I think he referred to himself as a psychopath.  Did you know about that?

 5        A.   I don't remember.

 6        Q.   Let me show you Exhibit P1538.  This is at tab 108 of the

 7     Prosecution's binder.  I have a hard copy for you here, if the usher

 8     would hand it to you.

 9             Mr. Macar, this is dated the 14th of September, 1992, from the

10     public prosecutor Milosevic to the investigating judge, and it's a

11     request to broaden the investigation against Dusko Vuckovic, also known

12     as Repic.  So this is from the public prosecutor's office in Bijeljina.

13     And the statement of reasons, it's at the bottom of page 1, she mentions

14     that the criminal report stated that the individual was in detention in

15     the military barracks in Bijeljina.  The matter was deferred to the

16     military prosecutor's office in Bijeljina as it was held that they had

17     jurisdiction over him.  Which if you go to the next page, page 2 for you

18     and page 2 in the English:

19             "The military prosecutor's office sent the criminal report back

20     with the explanation that the reported Dusko Vuckovic could not be

21     treated as a member of the Serbian Army of the Serbian Republic, that

22     just as the other individuals referenced in the criminal report he was

23     not a member of the regular armed forces, and that, for these reasons,

24     the criminal report was returned to us for further proceedings."

25             And finally in the last paragraph:

Page 23408

 1             "In view of the fact that the criminal report indicated that the

 2     reported individual did not complete his military service on account of

 3     alcoholism and psychopathy, an expert

 4     witness - neuropsychiatrist - should examine him in the course of the

 5     investigation ..."

 6             So it appears that in spite of your initial information, later

 7     information from the military prosecutor's office indicated that

 8     Mr. Vuckovic and the other individuals referenced in the criminal report

 9     were not members of the army and therefore should be prosecuted in the

10     civilian court.  Did you not learn about that?

11        A.   This document is dated 14 September.  It is not addressed to the

12     MUP and I was not familiar with it.  And I repeat that the military

13     police wouldn't have taken over a war crimes suspect if they hadn't

14     thought that the person in question was a member of the armed forces.

15     About this document, I can't comment on it.

16        Q.   Okay.  One thing I don't understand, however the work got divided

17     up between the military and the police investigators, is how come -- why

18     were your inspectors investigating Mr. Repic and the other Yellow Wasps

19     for these property crimes if you thought that they were members of the

20     army?  And actually, then charges did get filed in civilian court against

21     the Yellow Wasps for the property crimes.  That doesn't make sense to me.

22     If you thought they were in the army, why did you take the time to

23     investigate them and write up those reports and file charge -- have

24     charges filed, refer it to the prosecutor, if you thought they were in

25     the army?  Didn't you have plenty of other work that needed to be done?

Page 23409

 1        A.   The tasks of the public security service were, among others, to

 2     counter paramilitary units to a great extent in co-operation with the

 3     military police, then to counter the activities of units that had broken

 4     loose from the command of the VRS, and prevent paramilitary units and

 5     renegade units of the VRS from disturbing law and order in the territory

 6     of the republic.  In this framework, the operation was planned and

 7     carried out jointly by members of the MUP of the RS and the --

 8        Q.   We know that --

 9        A.   -- and the military police of the RS --

10        Q.   We know that.  We've heard that.  But can you tell me why you

11     were investigating these crimes if you believed these guys were in the

12     army and subject to military court jurisdiction?  Why waste your time on

13     it?

14        A.   I'm trying to answer that question too and also the question

15     whether we didn't have anything else to do.  We did.  But the priority

16     was the disarming of paramilitary units and proving their criminal

17     activity.  Probably the military police didn't have enough manpower and

18     information on property crimes was scattered on a number of SJBs.  If in

19     the area where they were active somebody had been deprived of some

20     property unlawfully, in most cases the injured party would report that

21     upon returning to their place of residence.  And they would report to the

22     local SJB.  They had control over a rural area that was sparsely

23     populated.  People were forcibly removed from their cars and property was

24     taken from them, and they had to manage somehow to get back home.

25        Q.   If you're finished, it's time for our last break.

Page 23410

 1        A.   No.  If I may just finish this sentence.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And as for my attitude, I did not

 4     take part in the previous discussions with the military security organs.

 5     Mr. Davidovic and Mr. Andan did.  A short while ago when I wanted to say

 6     something about Mr. Davidovic, I want to say that I respect him but he

 7     had no experience with the crime enforcement or the criminal procedure

 8     act.  He had experience with something else all together.  If I had been

 9     involved, I would have taken part in solving these crimes but the

10     criminal complaint would have been filed with the military prosecutor's

11     office.  However, an agreement had been reached already so that the

12     criminal report for property crimes was sent to the civilian prosecutor's

13     office which was in a position to forward that same material to the

14     military prosecutor's office.

15             MR. HANNIS:  We'll take our break now if that's agreeable.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, and we return in 15 minutes.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.49 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

20             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is on his way in, Mr. Hannis, we

21     would ask you to break at about 1.35 because the Chamber has a ruling to

22     deliver.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             MR. HANNIS:

25        Q.   Mr. Macar, the last thing you said was really not an answer to a

Page 23411

 1     question I asked, but you said at page 59, line 13:

 2             "A short while ago when I wanted to say something about

 3     Mr. Davidovic, I wanted to say that I respect him but he had no

 4     experience with the crime enforcement or the criminal procedure act.  He

 5     had experience with something else all together."

 6             As I understand, you never met Mr. Davidovic before the war broke

 7     out April/May of 1992, right?  You didn't know him before that?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Let me tell you a little bit about his experience and see if that

10     changes your opinion about whether he would have known something about

11     crime enforcement.  He started working in Bijeljina as a uniformed

12     policeman in 1974.  He was appointed commander of the police station in

13     Ugljevik where he commanded 24 people in a uniformed branch.  He did that

14     for 5 years.  In 1979 he moved to Tuzla and began working at the CSB.  He

15     was appointed chief of the general crime section which covered

16     18 municipalities.  He was the officer in charge of plain clothes

17     detectives, numbering 17, whose job it was to investigate serious crime.

18     In 1983 he moved to Bijeljina and became commander of the traffic safety

19     police station in Bijeljina.  In 1989 he became commander of the general

20     police station in Bijeljina.  In November 1989 he became chief of police

21     in Bijeljina and remained in that position until May or June 1991.  Then

22     he transferred to the federal SUP in Belgrade where he was appointed to

23     chief inspector for the general police, crime and traffic and fire

24     prevention.

25             Now, having heard that, would you want to withdraw what you said

Page 23412

 1     about he's a person who had no experience with crime enforcement?

 2        A.   First of all, I said that he was not familiar with the Law on

 3     Criminal Procedure and some information I have indicates that he was not

 4     familiar with the crime police, at least not based on what I saw in

 5     practice in August.

 6        Q.   That's not exactly what you said.  You said what I read, that he

 7     had no experience with the crime enforcement or with the criminal

 8     procedure code.

 9             Now, he worked as an officer in charge in the crime police in

10     Tuzla for a number of years.  You're still not willing to withdraw your


12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   If I may --

15        Q.   No, that's okay.  You answered my question.

16        A.   No, no --

17        Q.   You answered my question.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Mr. Hannis invited a witness to comment on

19     that.  Now if the witness wants to give the -- his opinion, he should be

20     allowed to do that, with all due respect, Your Honour.

21             MR. HANNIS:  He can do that on re-direct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I agree.

23             MR. HANNIS:

24        Q.   Mr. Macar, I want to show you Exhibit 1D649.  This is at tab 56

25     in your binder.

Page 23413

 1             And Mr. Zecevic talked to you about this, and specifically if we

 2     could look at page 2 in the English, and for you it's -- it's the last

 3     page.  This is a report from Cedo Tosic and Vojin Vukovic and there's

 4     some recommendations about measures to be taken in certain SJBs.  Do you

 5     see the one that says:  "Replace the supervisors at Gacko SJB."  And you

 6     said there was a replacement carried out there you thought in August or

 7     September.  Were you talking about the SJB chief or someone else?

 8        A.   I said -- well, what I meant when I said that is that there were

 9     some personnel reshuffles in the Gacko SJB, the chief and I think some

10     other senior officers.

11        Q.   Do you recall that the chief was Vojin Popovic?

12        A.   I remember that that Vojin Popovic was the chief of a service,

13     but I don't know if what, when, and where because I can't really recall

14     that.  There were 73 stations.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Could we show the witness Exhibit P2016.

17        Q.   This is tab 95 of the Prosecution's binder.  I don't think you

18     have it in that one, sir.  It's just a one-page document, so if you'll

19     look at the screen.  This is a decision appointing Vojin Popovic as chief

20     of the Gacko SJB.  Does that refresh your memory as to who was the

21     SJB chief in Gacko?

22        A.   Well, as soon as I see the decision and I see the name,

23     Vojin Popovic.  Yes.

24        Q.   And are you aware that he was not -- he was not replaced, that he

25     remained in the position as chief until 1993, when he transferred to the

Page 23414

 1     SJB, or perhaps it's the CSB, in Trebinje as an inspector and retired in

 2     1998.  Did you know about that?

 3        A.   I can't control -- I can't remember his further career and where

 4     he was appointed next.

 5        Q.   Could we look at 1D650.  I think this is in your binder, this

 6     next one, it's tab 89, Mr. Macar.  And you were shown this document.

 7     It's a request for RS MUP personnel to move through the territory of

 8     Serbia and Montenegro dated 20th of November.  And I think you told us

 9     that the person signing over the minister's name block was a

10     Cvijetin Lekic.  And am I correct, he was an inspector in the police

11     administration?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you know how it is that he had authority to sign for the

14     minister?  Would that be just a one-time permission or is that a standing

15     carte blanche?  What do you know about that?

16        A.   No one could sign on behalf of the minister.  This was done on a

17     case-to-case basis, either pursuant to an oral order or a written

18     authorisation.  This is November.  I think that in this period Mr. Kovac

19     was the acting, or rather, he was in charge of the public security and I

20     think that he had some authorisation from the minister.  And since the

21     police administration was in Bijeljina where the department had its

22     headquarters, I assume that he had received previously from Mr. Kovac a

23     request to send this dispatch.

24        Q.   Okay.  I can understand how Mr. Kovac or yourself or other heads

25     of the administration might be delegated to sign for the minister, but

Page 23415

 1     going down to the level of Mr. Lekic seems to be a pretty far delegation

 2     of authority.  Was that common in the RS MUP in 1992 or is this the only

 3     example of it that you've seen?

 4        A.   I am not aware of any other case where somebody of a rank lower

 5     than the administration chief would sign a document of this kind.  I

 6     don't know what post Mr. Lekic had in the police administration.  He was

 7     probably in a team which was preparing those activities.  So preparing a

 8     unit to leave to an area, this is not a task that is done by one person.

 9     You have several people doing that and they have their officers in

10     charge, and probably in that team Mr. Lekic was tasked with announcing

11     the passage based on some previous arrangements.  Because of the urgency,

12     the MUP of Serbia and of Montenegro had to be informed, and he was

13     authorised to sign this document.

14        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry.

17        Q.   Next I want to ask you about a couple of documents Mr. Zecevic

18     showed you concerning -- are you okay?  Do you want to stop?

19        A.   I'm fine.  I'm trying to find the position that would be

20     comfortable.

21        Q.   Okay.  Just another ten minutes if that's all right.  Okay.

22             Exhibit 1D334 was a Defence tab, but I don't recall the number.

23     I'll tell you, you may not even need look at the document.  This was the

24     one that was talking about sending -- well, dealing with the operative

25     activities in the investigation of the kidnapping of 18 Muslims on the

Page 23416

 1     Rudo-Priboj road.  I think it's tab 80, 8-0, if you want to look.

 2             And you talked about two incidents which had some evidence to

 3     suggest that Milan Lukic and his group may have been involved in those.

 4     Do you recall that?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Are you aware that Milan Lukic's cousin Sredoje Lukic was a part

 7     of Milan Lukic's group in Visegrad MUP, operating in the area of Visegrad

 8     municipality in 1992?

 9        A.   I do not remember the names of the group members.  I do remember

10     the name of Milan Lukic, though.  But without looking at any documents I

11     cannot speak about the composition of the group or other things.

12        Q.   And did you know that Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic were tried

13     here in this Tribunal?

14        A.   Yes, I learned it from the media.

15        Q.   And were you aware of evidence that Sredoje Lukic was a member of

16     the police in Visegrad for something like, I think, 13 years, up to and

17     including 1992?

18        A.   I've never heard of his being a police member in 1992.

19        Q.   The -- one of the instances that was talked about was the -- and

20     I can't remember which one is which, I think 18 Muslims taken off a

21     train.  Do you recall that one?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And the other one was 17 Muslims taken off a bus.  And I think

24     you told me that was in the area of Sjeverin?

25        A.   Probably they were citizens from Sjeverin, in that area, in that

Page 23417

 1     direction, but I cannot be specific about the place names.  I am familiar

 2     with the bus case and the train case.

 3        Q.   Both those cases seemed to get a lot of attention, and I want to

 4     suggest to you that one of the reasons for that is because the victims,

 5     though they were non-Serbs, they were citizens of Serbia and not the RS.

 6     And isn't it a fact that the republic -- that Serbia was putting some

 7     pressure on the RS MUP to investigate both those cases?  If you know.

 8        A.   The MUP of Serbia never exerted any pressure on me.  I didn't

 9     even know anybody from the MUP of Serbia until the end of 1992.  When I

10     say that, I'm referring to the leadership.  The Sarajevo CSB and the Rudo

11     and Visegrad activity were trying to solve both cases.  That's what I

12     know.

13        Q.   All right.  I want to ask you a couple questions in regard to

14     that.  You had said that there was no criminal report filed because there

15     was no evidence obtained identifying the perpetrators.  Is that right?

16     Is that what you said and what happened, that no report was filed because

17     the perpetrators were unidentified?

18        A.   The activities taken by the stations of Rudo and Cajnice as well

19     as the Sarajevo centre did not lead to the identification of the

20     perpetrator or perpetrators of these crimes.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In line 18 it should

22     read Visegrad SJBs.

23             MR. HANNIS:

24        Q.   But it's my understanding that that's not a reason not to file a

25     criminal report.  If you have evidence that a crime occurred, you have a

Page 23418

 1     dead body with bullet-holes in them, it's obviously a crime.  An

 2     NN criminal report can be filed, right?  Unknown perpetrator.  Wasn't

 3     that a common practice to file unknown perpetrator reports?

 4        A.   I don't know that no criminal report was filed against an unknown

 5     perpetrator in connection with this event that happened in this part of

 6     Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I didn't realise that because your answer is recorded as

 8     saying that no criminal report was filed because no evidence was found

 9     identifying the perpetrators.  And then you said the same thing again at

10     page 23032, that:

11             "As I answered Judge Harhoff, the perpetrators were not

12     identified, and no criminal report materialised."

13             So are you now saying you don't know whether one was filed or

14     not?  Is that the best of your recollection?

15        A.   If I understood you correctly, my answer was that no criminal

16     complaint against a known perpetrator was submitted.  That's what I

17     meant, known perpetrator or perpetrators.  Because the ones working on

18     that, the Rudo and Cajnice stations as well as the Sarajevo centre, were

19     not able to find evidence that could serve to identify the perpetrator or

20     perpetrators.  That's what I meant.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I think we're going to break for the day.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, if I can give the witness one more

23     document to look at over the weekend, and for the Defence it's that

24     November 1993 collegium session.  We have an additional question or two.

25     It was 65 ter 20218.  If I can give him a hard copy.

Page 23419

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2             Mr. Macar, we are about to take the adjournment for the weekend,

 3     and again there's certain procedural matters with which the Chamber has

 4     to deal before we rise, so the usher would escort you out ahead of us.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  On the 6th of May, the Stanisic Defence ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  We have to go into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23420











11 Pages 23420-23421 redacted. Private session.















Page 23422

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 23423

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise for the week and we're in all morning

 3     sessions next week and we're back in this courtroom on Monday morning.  I

 4     trust everyone has a safe weekend.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

 7                           July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.