Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23668

 1                           Tuesday, 6 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner assisted

12     by Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery appearing for

15     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

17     Aleksandar Aleksic, and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             And if there is nothing to delay us, could the witness be

20     escorted in.  But before -- usher, before he comes in -- Mr. Krgovic,

21     continuing with the observation, I don't know I would put it as high as

22     an objection that Ms. Korner raised yesterday, the Chamber would

23     respectfully remind you that inasmuch as this witness has been called as

24     an expert witness, and although in -- my recollection, and it may be a

25     matter of the translation or interpretation that he -- that his

Page 23669

 1     explanation for some of the comments he made yesterday was based on his

 2     experience, that you should frame your questions in such a way that the

 3     witness is not blending, as it were, his observations out of which he is

 4     able to express an expert opinion from a broader, quote/unquote,

 5     experience, which may import any number of suppositions and things

 6     outside his realm of expertise.

 7             So if you would bear that in mind, Mr. Krgovic.

 8             Yes, Usher.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, General.  Before I invite

11     Mr. Krgovic to begin, I remind you you're still on your oath.

12                           WITNESS:  VIDOSAV KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

15                           Examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   General, yesterday we commented on some of the paragraphs in your

19     expert report.  The last such paragraph was 51.  You had explained

20     already why it was only on the 12th of May that the decision on the

21     setting up of the VRS was adopted.

22             Please take a look at paragraph 52 in your report, where you say:

23             [As read] "At the same session, a decision of the National

24     Assembly of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina established

25     the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The decision

Page 23670

 1     was adopted based on the constitution of Republika Srpska in response to

 2     the situation at the time and in accordance with the constitutional

 3     obligation of the National Assembly to 'regulate and ensure the defence

 4     and security of the Republic.'"

 5             You say "in response to the situation at the time."  What did you

 6     have in mind when you chose that language?

 7        A.   Mr. Krgovic, I partly explained in my footnote.  And yesterday, I

 8     pointed out the well-known fact that previously the

 9     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence Council had been

10     established as two armed forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's what I

11     meant when I wrote "the situation at the time."

12             So I'm referring to the overall situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina

13     which was a situation of war or, actually, to be more precise, imminent

14     threat of war.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

18        Q.   General, I'm going to ask you to take a look at footnote 16.  And

19     that's document 2D10 --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the number.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Tab -- I apologise, I'll have to

22     repeat the number.  The document 2D100539.

23             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... I missed the

24     tab number.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's tab 16.  Or, rather,

Page 23671

 1     footnote 16.  I apologise, it's actually tab 9.

 2        Q.   I'm going to give you hard copies of these documents.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the usher to

 4     assist me.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The tab in your copy is 16, General.  Page 2.

 8             General, this is the decision on the formation of the Army of the

 9     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And in Article 2, it says:

10     "The existing Territorial Defence units and staffs shall be renamed as

11     commands and units of the army whose organisation and establishment shall

12     be determined by the president of the republic."

13             General, please explain briefly of which units the Army of the RS

14     consisted and what is the essence of the VRS?

15        A.   I already said, and I can repeat now, that on the 4th of May, the

16     federal leadership - and I mean that of Yugoslavia - adopted the decision

17     on the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18     After that, only TO units remained functional, and they had existed in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war, too, as in all other republics.  We

20     have seen that pursuant to a decision of the highest leadership of the

21     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Territorial Defence of BH had already

22     been set up, and the situation was the same in the Serbian Republic of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is, the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH was

24     made up exclusively of units and staffs of the Territorial Defence.

25        Q.   Does that mean that a number of persons from the JNA joined the

Page 23672

 1     Army of the Republika Srpska?  And when I say that, I mean people who

 2     hail from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        A.   Yes.  There was the opinion that officers and non-commissioned

 4     officers, even soldiers who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina and were

 5     citizens of that republic, because all of us who lived in the Federation

 6     had a dual citizenship:  A federal citizenship and a republican

 7     citizenship.  And, thus, these persons had the opportunity to remain in

 8     the newly established Army of the Serbian Republic of BH.

 9             Of course, I can add those were times of great uncertainty.  It

10     was mostly left to the people to the decide themselves.  Nobody knew what

11     arrangements would be in place with regard to payment, accommodation,

12     housing, and so on, so that a large part of officers from

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina stayed in the Yugoslav People's Army which later

14     become the Army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I am an example

15     of that.

16        Q.   General, you mentioned that somewhat earlier the

17     Territorial Defence of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

18     been set up.  Tell me, what kind of relationship was in place between the

19     TO of the Serbian Republic of BH and the old TO, to call it that?  Were

20     there any changes, and how was that regulated?

21        A.   As far as I know, the decision on the establishment of the

22     Territorial Defence of the Serbian Republic of BH, or, rather, the

23     reasoning of that decision, said that the units of Territorial Defence

24     set up in the framework of the JNA remained in existence and remained

25     functional.  And these were newly established armed forces, to call them

Page 23673

 1     that.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 53, you say, General, that the Presidency of the

 3     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 15th of June, 1992,

 4     adopted the decision on the formation, organisation, establishment, and

 5     commanding of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     which provided the foundation for the organisation of the army.

 7             In your binder, that's footnote 17.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, are we leaving this document?

 9     Mr. Krgovic?  May I just ask, sorry, Your Honours.  Because,

10     Your Honours, the problem is it's apparently not part of the law library,

11     and clearly the -- it was handed in for translation with this

12     highlighting on it because the CLSS don't appear to be able to translate

13     part of what is in Article 2 and I don't know how important it is.  But

14     they say, not surprisingly, illegible.

15             So if it is to be exhibited, Mr. Krgovic, then I think we need a

16     clean copy plus what it actually says.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see what the

18     Prosecutor means, but, to me, it is legible enough.  Perhaps we can ask

19     the General to read out the paragraph.  And this will certainly be

20     tendered so we can have it retranslated, if necessary.

21        Q.   General, can you please take a look at paragraph 2 on the screen.

22     Paragraph 2 of the decision of the setting up of the Army of the Serbian

23     Republic of BH?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Krgovic, but apart from what the

Page 23674

 1     witness's translation would be, the point that Ms. Korner is making is

 2     that if this is going to be tendered and/or migrated to the law library,

 3     these anomalies would have to be sorted out and how would you propose

 4     that that best be done?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will submit this

 6     document for retranslation.  However, it is legible it.  I can read it

 7     and I commented this very copy with the witness.  But certainly we want

 8     to avoid this situation, a situation as with that document that

 9     Ms. Korner and I are arguing about.  So it may be better for this one to

10     be resubmitted for translation to CLSS.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Krgovic, I can read it, but I

12     would like to remind the Bench that in paragraph 52 of my report, just

13     before footnote 16, there is an quotation from that Article 2.  And that

14     quotation reads:

15             [As read] "The existing Territorial Defence units and staffs

16     shall be renamed as commands and units of the army, whose organisation

17     and establishment shall be determined by the president of the Republic."

18             I believe that you have a translation of that.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this is the content of

21     Article 2.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  In addition, Your Honours, I note at the very end

23     it says that this -- this decision was published in the Official Gazette

24     of Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina, so ... therefore, it should be in the law

25     library already.

Page 23675

 1             JUDGE HALL:  That leapt out at me as well, Mr. Zecevic.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, absolutely, if it is in the law library

 3     already.  We checked for this particular document, this particular

 4     document isn't, and then, therefore, it is in the law library,

 5     Mr. Krgovic needn't trouble to exhibit this or get it retranslated.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In view of that fact, then I will

 7     not tender this document into evidence, provided it becomes part of the

 8     law library.  But at any rate, I'm going to double-check this.  I am

 9     particularly interested in these provisions whether it was incorporated

10     in a law or published in a public gazette, but I don't think that this

11     particular aspect is of much relevance.

12        Q.   Now, General, could you please look at 65 ter document 003000D2,

13     that's on our list.  It's tab 11 in your binder, the footnote 17 B.  And

14     I think it is going to be much easier for you if you look for this

15     particular footnote.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise I will repeat.

17     00039D2, that's 65 ter number, or 2D100543.

18             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I'm sorry to keep

19     interrupting.  But I don't see a footnote 17 B in the General's report

20     and the document referred to in footnote 17 is not this one.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there are actually

22     two documents mentioned in footnote 17.  That's why I told the General

23     what I told him, but this should be your tab 11.

24        Q.   General, have you managed to find the decision on the forming of

25     the commands?

Page 23676

 1        A.   It's, rather, an order.

 2        Q.   Yes, an order.

 3             General, can you tell us what implication does this order have in

 4     the process of the forming of an army?

 5        A.   It is slightly unusual that nearly a month elapsed after the

 6     decision that we mentioned a minute ago to establish an army.  And then

 7     one month later, an order is issued to form unit commands of the Army of

 8     the Serbian Republic of BH, which, in fact, makes it possible to provide

 9     complete definition of the army, as well as its organisation, to have the

10     army organised at both operative and tactical levels, to determine the

11     number of corps and their strengths, to provide a legal frame for the

12     civilian control over the army, to regulate the manner of takeover of

13     weapons and equipment.  In other words, everything that is necessary to

14     be in place for an army to become functional and operational.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think there's a mistranslation of the

16     date, if -- if what the General -- in English.  It says the 18th of

17     August, 1992.  And I think the original does say "6."

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree.  I haven't noticed that.

19     That's a mistranslation.  And we're going to send this to the CLSS to

20     correct it.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was June.  It wasn't August.

22     Or maybe it's August.  I can't see clearly.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have this enlarged in

24     e-court, please.

25        Q.   This is definitely June.

Page 23677

 1        A.   Yes, the 16th of June.

 2        Q.   Can you please now move to the next page of your expert report;

 3     specifically paragraph 55.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we also have paragraph 55 of

 5     the expert report in e-court.

 6        Q.   Can you please read this portion where you say that:

 7             [As read] "The Army of Republika Srpska is defined as the armed

 8     force whose ... task is to defend the sovereignty, territory,

 9     independence and constitutional order of Republika Srpska."

10             Can you please look at Exhibit 2D100565.  That's footnote 20.

11     And it's the same in your binder.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please, in the Serbian.

13        Q.   Here, the Law on the Army defines the role of the army.  And it

14     is defined as an armed force.

15             What was the case with the police?  In 1992, within the scope of

16     the military doctrine or any other legal frame, was it ever defined as an

17     armed force as well?

18        A.   I particularly quoted this article of the law which reads that

19     the Army of Republika Srpska is the only armed force whose tasks are to

20     defend the sovereignty, territorial, independence and constitutional

21     order of Republika Srpska as stipulated by the constitution.  In other

22     words, pursuant to this article, police or militia units or the Ministry

23     of the Interior are not an integral part of the Armed Forces of

24     Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   I'm sorry, could you please repeat your answer because part of it

Page 23678

 1     hasn't been recorded.

 2        A.   I quoted this Article of the Law on Defence, because it

 3     particularly emphasises that only the Army of Republika Srpska is defined

 4     as being an armed force whose task is to defend the sovereignty,

 5     territory, independence and constitutional order of Republika Srpska.

 6     Units and forces of the Ministry of Interior under this law do not

 7     constitute part of the armed forces.

 8        Q.   General, in paragraph 56 --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, before you go on, Mr. Krgovic.

10             General, could you assist me with, in terms of your last answer,

11     you say:

12             "It particularly emphasises that only the Army of Republika

13     Srpska is defined as being an armed force whose task," et cetera, the

14     units and forces of the ministry do not constitute part of the armed

15     forces.

16             Could you assist me, please, with how you -- why do you say that?

17     Because looking at Article 1, the way it reads is the Army of the Serbian

18     Republic is an armed force defending the sovereignty, et cetera.

19             I hear what you are saying, but could you explain to me why you

20     deduce that it is that the army has the exclusive responsible for

21     defending the territory, the sovereignty, et cetera.  Looking at the

22     words of Article 1.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the reason is because that

24     was the practice in every country and that was the practice implemented

25     in the former Yugoslavia.  The armed forces were the Yugoslav People's

Page 23679

 1     Army and the Territorial Defence.  Militia had never been part of the

 2     armed forces.  Those were units that are not trained to participate in

 3     combat operations.  Police is intended to maintain primarily public law

 4     and order.  For that reason, they are never incorporated into an armed

 5     forces.

 6             I don't know if this was of assistance to you.  I mean, in terms

 7     of armed forces being involved in combat and war operations.  And it is

 8     emphasised here that only the Army of Republika Srpska, they even left

 9     out the TO, because this army grew out of the merging of the former TO

10     with the army.  I -- I do agree that it is slightly complicated.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

12             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, as a follow-up of the question posed to you by

15     Mr. President, in paragraph 57 you say, and I'm going to paraphrase, that

16     subsequent laws from 1994, units of the MUP were envisaged to be a part

17     of the armed forces.

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  But that took place only in 1994.  I don't

19     know the genuine reasons for making such a decision, but I think that is

20     rather unusual for the police to become part of an armed force.  However,

21     the then-leadership of Republika Srpska probably had their own reasons

22     that guided them to take such a decision.  But a minute ago, I was

23     speaking about 1992, at the time when the army was formed, and that, at

24     that time, the army was the only armed force, and that draws a clear line

25     between them, on the one hand, and paramilitary units and the police on

Page 23680

 1     the other.

 2             Of course, I am not equating the police units and paramilitary

 3     formations.  I'm just trying to make the distinction between the notion

 4     of armed forces on the one hand.

 5        Q.   General, can you please look at paragraph 56, where you speak

 6     about and quote the Law on Defence.

 7             Can you please look at a document, 2D100567.  This is your

 8     footnote 21.  I believe it's tab 14 on the Defence list, the

 9     Zupljanin Defence list.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, I'm a little bit confused here.

11     Tab 14, what is -- what is that document number referring to?  2D100567?

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's 2D100567.  And the 65 ter

13     number is 00041D2; that's the Law on Defence.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And the 2D number is -- what number,

15     is that, an ERN number?

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the doc ID.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Please take a look at Article 10.

20             Here, in paragraph 56, you discuss the remit of the

21     Ministry of the Interior in the sphere of defence.  You say that the Law

22     on Defence regulated the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Interior.

23             Under the law, who is it who decides about the use of police in

24     wartime operations?

25        A.   The use of the police in combat operations can be ordered

Page 23681

 1     exclusively by the president of the republic as the Supreme Commander.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 56, you also say that, in practice, police units of

 3     the RS MUP participated in the execution of combat tasks, either jointly

 4     with the VRS or resubordinated to it.

 5             Can you explain what you mean by this?

 6        A.   I, first and foremost, wanted to point out the difference between

 7     practice and theory.  To the extent I was able to draw conclusions from

 8     the documents I analysed, there were two ways of using the police in

 9     combat operations.

10             One way, which, to my mind, was more correct, was the following.

11     The army informed the CSB and requested a certain number of units, or a

12     certain number of men, to be attached to army units, and then police

13     units would act -- would act in coordinated actions with units of the

14     VRS.  But I was able to see in some documents that there were other ways,

15     too; namely, that local commanders, on their own, decided to

16     resubordinate police units of on the ground.  To my mind, that manner of

17     using police units of is less correct.  That is why I wanted to point out

18     this difference.

19        Q.   Having mentioned these two alternatives, what is the relationship

20     between the police units and the VRS, in either case?

21        A.   Well, that is actually the gist of it.  Let's now leave aside how

22     police units were used.  In both cases, they were subordinated to the

23     commander, the military commander, seeking to accomplish a military

24     mission.

25        Q.   In footnote 22, you cite a document which I'm going to show you

Page 23682

 1     now.  The document number is 1D00406.  And that's footnote 22 in your

 2     copy.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The tab number is 15 for everybody

 4     else.

 5        Q.   General, sir, please take a look at this document.

 6             At the beginning, you see a statement of reasons why the -- why

 7     the order is issued.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to the following page.

 9        Q.   I'm interested in the third paragraph from the bottom; that is,

10     the third and the fourth.  It says here that:

11             "The exclusive right to command and use a unit is with the zone

12     commander."

13             And it goes on to say:

14             [As read] "In the conduct of combat activities, all police forces

15     shall be placed under the command of the zone commander who shall decide

16     how they are used."

17             Now we can go back to the first document which is titled:

18     "Determining Zones of Responsibility."

19             Could you comment on this document with regard to the

20     delimitation of zones and the commanding of zones?

21        A.   The corps commander, within his jurisdiction and remit, has the

22     right to issue orders and establish zones of responsibility in accordance

23     with his assessment of the situation on the ground and the carrying out

24     of combat operations.

25             In his order, the commander must precisely delimit the zones,

Page 23683

 1     state who was in command there, and define their respective tasks.  It

 2     also follows from that document that the commander orders police units to

 3     be placed under the command of the zone commander in order to carry out

 4     combat tasks.  That is possible in certain situations, but it should be

 5     an exception rather than a rule.

 6        Q.   Must these newly established zones match the zone of

 7     responsibility of brigades?

 8        A.   No, they don't.  These provisional zones are a result of the

 9     assessment of the situation on the ground, as well as the nature of the

10     combat task to be carried out.

11        Q.   You spoke about the two manners of using police units.  What

12     about this case?  Which manner of use of the police would this be?

13        A.   Well, I spoke conditionally --

14             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, at the moment, what's happening is the

15     translation is running behind.  The General starts answering before we

16     get the translation of your question.  So I wonder if you could try and

17     leave a pause.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

19        Q.   General, we have a problem with interpretation.  The two of us

20     speak the same language and I tend to speak fast, so please allow for a

21     short pause before you begin answering.  Possibly my question was a bit

22     unclear too, so I'll repeat.

23             You spoke about the two manners and you explained why you used

24     those two terms.  In one case, they are resubordinated directly without a

25     decision or approval; and in the alternative case, there was a procedure

Page 23684

 1     in place.  In this specific example, which of the two applies?

 2        A.   It is difficult to give a precise answer to your question only

 3     based on this document.  Possibly the corps commander was authorised by

 4     the commander of the Main Staff, and he, in turn, by the president of the

 5     republic, whom I mentioned a short while ago as the only one who had the

 6     right to decide about the use of police forces in combat.

 7             In this case, we do not know if the commander was so authorised

 8     or made the decision independently, based on his assessment of the

 9     situation and the threat in certain zones.  That is, the threat posed to

10     the population and property, and, as commander, he has the right to

11     command all units in his zone of responsibility.

12             But I would like to point out that, in this case, it isn't so

13     important.  What's key and what you asked me is the following:  The

14     commander made a decision.  The units became part of the military, and by

15     that very fact, they were subordinated to the commander of the military

16     unit.  That is much more important than the way how they ever got to be

17     part of the military formation.

18        Q.   Thank you, General.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, just one moment.

20             Mr. Witness, you say "the units became part of the military ..."

21             May I ask you which units?  I mean, are these all units within a

22     certain territory; or were these particular units that had been assigned,

23     as such?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this document that we're

25     discussing now, we read only during the execution of combat operations

Page 23685

 1     all police forces are placed under the command of the zone commander who

 2     decides about their use.

 3             So it says very clearly:  All police forces.

 4             What exactly that is or how strong these forces are, I cannot

 5     say, because I wasn't there.

 6             It is it important to underline, Your Honours that there is no

 7     parallel command in an army.  You can't have two persons issuing orders

 8     and commands.  There can only be one person in charge.  There is no

 9     collective command responsibility or responsibility in general.  And that

10     is why it is always said that whatever is incorporated into the army, it

11     has to be subordinated to the person who had been appointed to that very

12     position by a state organ and act as a brigade commander, a corps

13     commander, or a division commander.  And the virtue of this appointment

14     gives him this authority.  All the forces that are part of his units are

15     subordinated to him.  However, in the course of carrying out peacetime or

16     wartime assignments, he is in -- allowed to delegate his responsibility

17     and authority to lower officers.  However, his personal responsibility

18     cannot be delegated to anyone because it is inherent to his function and

19     his post.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I understand what you are saying, Mr. Kovacevic,

21     but my concern is this:  This all relates to a certain territory, I

22     suppose.

23             Can you define the territory to which it pertains?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this document, the zone

25     boundaries are precisely defined of that territory.

Page 23686

 1             For example, on page 1, paragraph 1, it says that:

 2             [As read] "The commander of the 343rd Motorised Brigade shall be

 3     responsible for organising and carrying out combat activities in the

 4     zone."

 5             And then we have a list of names, Dubica, Sanski Most, Sanica and

 6     Ivanjska village.

 7             And all the troops deployed in that area which might cover some

 8     50 kilometres, let's say, are subordinated to this particular commander

 9     in carrying out combat activities.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now, then, during that time, if all police units

11     are subordinated to the -- to the military and are part of the army, who

12     is doing the police work then?  In that zone.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked myself the same question

14     when I was reading these documents and drafting my report, because it's

15     simply inconceivable; but, on the other hand, it is hard to understand a

16     lot of things during a war.

17             If you don't have enough men to cover certain front line, I

18     suppose that the easiest way out of that situation is to engage police

19     units who bear arms and who have some level of military training.  I

20     suppose that the commanders had no choice but to act in that way, which,

21     on the other hand, left the chiefs of the CSBs without their forces.  And

22     you are right about that.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Krgovic.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Delvoie.

Page 23687

 1        Q.   General, as a follow-up of the question asked of you by the

 2     Judge, here, we have a clear definition of areas of responsibility.

 3             Now, what happened when you have resubordination of police units

 4     without zones of responsibility being defined but they are, rather, sent

 5     to a brigade?  What are the responsibilities of the brigade commander in

 6     that particular instance?

 7        A.   Well, it is difficult to give you a general answer to that.  We

 8     would have to analyse how it worked on the grouped.  And I can only talk

 9     about what I found in the documents.  Similarly, if a brigade commander

10     is assigned a specific task and if some of his axes or his front lines

11     was in danger, he will definitely order the use of the most adjacent

12     police force.  But I'm telling you that those should have been

13     exceptions, according to my experience and according to the military

14     practice.  I don't think that this should have happened thus often.

15             I'm sorry.  My brother is a police officer, for example.  He was

16     a police officer during the war.  He lives in Prnjavor.  And as a

17     policeman, he was sent out to carry out combat assignments 300 kilometres

18     from his police station, which, to me, doesn't sound very logical.  And

19     that happened quite a few times during the war, and I discussed these

20     matters with him.

21        Q.   Let us go back now to your expert report.

22             In paragraph 58, you say that the organisation of the VRS was

23     outlined after its formation.

24             And you also say that the policies and the doctrine of the

25     defence of Republika Srpska, which were supposed to serve as the basis

Page 23688

 1     for the organisation of the army were not defined.

 2             Can you tell us whether, in general, the Law on Army envisaged a

 3     sort of -- its general role, so to speak?

 4        A.   Well, its general role was, indeed, defined, and that is what I

 5     spoke about a minute ago, and I'm going to repeat it now.

 6             The task of the Army of the Serbian Republic of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina was to defend the sovereignty, territory,

 8     independence, and constitutional order of Republika Srpska.

 9             However, basically, each army has only two tasks.  In peacetime,

10     its task is to maintain a high level of combat readiness, or, as they

11     call it in the west, operative capacity; whereas in wartime, its basic

12     task is to defeat the enemy.

13        Q.   General, in paragraph 59 - can you please take a look at it - you

14     say that the organisation resembled that of the former JNA with due

15     respect for certain specific features.

16             Then you went onto say that - and that's in paragraph 63 - that

17     was the so-called "line-staff type of organisation."

18             When you say "line-staff," you explain some of the principles

19     that pertain to it.  However, can you explain to us in more detail this

20     principle of line-staff type?  Can you simplify it a little bit for us

21     because this is rather complicated military terminology.

22        A.   A while ago, I partly answered that question when I spoke about

23     the commander having the sole right to command.  It might be better for

24     me to explain this, although the Honourable Chamber is aware of that, but

25     I will say that every system and every state, in order to improve its

Page 23689

 1     functioning, relies on two social functions.  The first one is government

 2     which exists in every country and every system.  There is somebody who

 3     governs the country and takes decisions.  And another social function is

 4     management or execution which is responsible for putting those decisions

 5     into practice.

 6             And there's another -- a third social function which is called

 7     command.  However, it is characteristics of one system alone, and that

 8     system is called an army.  And that applies to every single army.

 9             Why is that the case?  It would take too much time for me to

10     explain, but I would just say that the essence of the army defines its

11     position.  Army has to deal with a large number of human beings with

12     enormous amounts of lethal weapons, and I'm sure that this third aspect

13     was introduced only in the army and partially it exists within the

14     police.  This command function relies on singleness of command and

15     subordination; that is to say, the right of commanders to command.

16             When we tried to explain this principle to our cadets, we always

17     say that all those functions that begin with a K in the Serbian language,

18     means commander, commands, brigade commander, et cetera; whereas, all the

19     other functions that end with a K in the Serbian language, such as chief,

20     assistant, those are the people who are managing or controlling or

21     assisting the process.  So the exclusive right of command which is

22     something that coincides with this line of chain of command that goes

23     from the president downwards to the last private on the ground, via all

24     the commanders, such as brigade commanders, company commander, et cetera,

25     follows this line of command.

Page 23690

 1        Q.   When you spoke about this chain of command, you said that the

 2     positions that end with a K are not entitled to command.  What about the

 3     president?  It also ends with a K.

 4        A.   Yes, you're right.  The word president, such as president of the

 5     Parliament or the prime minister, have an executive function.  But the

 6     president of a state always has a phrase Commander-in-Chief after his

 7     title, which gives him this right to command.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm going to move to another topic so I think this

 9     is maybe a convenient time for the break.

10             JUDGE HALL:  So we return in 20 minutes.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, let us go back to your report.

17             In paragraph 59 which is before you, you discuss the VRS.  Did

18     you also provide a schematic on the same page depicting the command

19     structure of the VRS?  There, we can see that the Supreme Commander is

20     the president of the republic.

21             In keeping with his scope of authority, could the president

22     delegate the right of command to someone else, and who?

23        A.   The president of the republic can delegate part of his

24     responsibility for commanding the army, and I believe it was, indeed,

25     done during the war.  Part of his responsibilities was delegated to the

Page 23691

 1     commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  There are several documents

 2     confirming this.  Occasionally, I would come across a document which the

 3     end would say the Commander of the Main Staff is hereby authorised to

 4     deal with the specifics of this document.

 5        Q.   General, you also provide a detailed structure of the subordinate

 6     units.

 7        A.   [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

10        Q.   There seems to be a part of the transcript missing.  Could you

11     repeat the last sentence.  You said you viewed a number of documents and

12     then ... please repeat that part.

13        A.   When drafting this report, in order to corroborate a previous

14     assertion I made, I can say that I came across certain documents where

15     one finds that the president of the republic is authorising the commander

16     of the Main Staff to regulate certain specific issues related to the

17     army.

18        Q.   General, in paragraph 66, you discuss the structure of the VRS.

19     You also say that the competences of the different organs at different

20     levels of command is something that the VRS has not worked out, but it

21     did rely on the existing orders and regulations pertaining to the units

22     of the JNA.

23             In footnote 31, you refer to regulations on the responsibilities

24     of the Land Army Corps Command in peacetime.

25             Please, let's look at the document you refer to.  It's

Page 23692

 1     65 ter 0097D2, if I'm not mistaken.  Sorry, 47.  Tab 23 for the other

 2     participants.

 3             When you discuss the documents used by the VRS, I believe you had

 4     this document in mind, as well as a number of others.  In addition to the

 5     book of rules on the responsibilities of the grounds forces corps command

 6     in peacetime, do you know what other documents were used by the VRS and

 7     at what level of command?  And I have in mind the strategic, operational,

 8     and tactical level.  Were such documents used at all levels, since, here,

 9     you only refer to a single book of rules.  That, I guess, would be my

10     question.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm not objecting to the question

12     provided the General gives the basis for saying why he knows that the

13     book of rules on the responsibilities of ground forces corps command in

14     peacetime were those used by the VRS at a time of a state of war, or

15     imminent war.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to assist concerning the

17     objection.

18             MS. KORNER:  No.  I don't think Mr. Krgovic should assist the

19     General.  I think the General should answer --

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps you can ask him that in

21     cross-examination.  You put forth your objection, and you're free to put

22     your own questions later on.

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, then, Your Honour, unless the General does

24     explain the basis, because it is not set out in his report, I do object

25     to the question.

Page 23693

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   General, a question:  When drafting your report, did you come

 3     across any rules about the competencies of the command of the land army

 4     in the VRS?  And I have in mind 1992.

 5        A.   I didn't come across such a document.  From personal experience,

 6     I can say that it was a time of war.  The army was established and

 7     organised.  The establishment system was set up.  And, as I mention in

 8     the report, the organisational principles used resembled, to a great

 9     extent, the ones used in the JNA.  Due to the conditions that prevailed

10     and shortness of time, this was done in such a way.  There was no need to

11     do anything else because these books of rules, which were produced in

12     peacetime, pertaining to the JNA, envisaged even such situations, and I

13     used this example of the rules of the Land Army Corps Command in

14     peacetime.  It was but one example of rules used in the JNA, much as it

15     was used in the VRS.

16             We have clear definitions of the competencies of all levels of

17     command within, in this case, the corps.

18        Q.   General, based on your experience and work at the

19     Military Academy, can you tell us what was the situation like, in terms

20     of applying JNA rules to other armed forces in the region?

21        A.   As far as I know, the other armed forces of the region also

22     partially relied on the rules and regulations of the former JNA.  I said

23     already - yesterday, I believe - that everyone made use of what they

24     deemed fit.  I need to remind everyone that the JNA was a respectable

25     armed force and that the rules and documents used by it were, for the

Page 23694

 1     most part, compatible or similar to similar such rules in existence in

 2     the other armed forces of Europe and elsewhere in the world.

 3        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In terms of command and control of armed forces, you dedicate

 7     part of your report to the Armed Forces of the FRY.  I won't go in much

 8     detail in that part.

 9             I just wanted to ask you this:  What is the relationship between

10     the system of command and control in the Armed Forces of the SFRY, and

11     here I mean the principles used, with the system of command and control

12     in the VRS?

13        A.   A moment ago I was trying to explain the difference between

14     control, command, and monitoring.  I precisely stated that command is

15     only present in the system or organisation that we refer to as the army.

16     It always has its foundation in the principle of singleness of command

17     and subordination, relying on the relationship between a superior and a

18     subordinate.  In each situation, it is always known who the commander is,

19     who makes the decisions, and the subordinate must implement the

20     superior's decisions, unless they contravene international humanitarian

21     law.

22             This is not the principle that was only followed by the JNA.  At

23     the helm of each and every armed forces, we have the president of the

24     state, then the commander of the Main Staff, and, further down, commander

25     of the corps, brigade, et cetera, all the way down to the single private.

Page 23695

 1             In terms of your question of command and control in the JNA, I

 2     can only tell you that the same principles were used by the VRS, and I'm

 3     certain such rules were also used by the other armed forces created in

 4     territory of the former Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   General, when providing such lengthy answers, please slow down,

 6     as the interpreters have to catch up.  Do not forget that everything we

 7     say is being interpreted.

 8        A.   [Microphone not activated]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In paragraph 112.  Paragraph 112 of your report.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it on the

13     screen.

14        Q.   There you say that when issuing an order, the superior in

15     question was obliged to ensure that it was realistic and could be

16     executed.

17             Is the superior also obliged to keep in mind other regulation and

18     rules in addition to this strictly narrow military interpretation of such

19     rules?

20        A.   Well, yes.  A moment ago I said that the superior makes decisions

21     and issues orders, and the subordinates are duty-bound to implement them.

22             I state here that the superior is obliged to ensure that such

23     decisions are realistic and could be executed.  In other words, it means

24     that he needs to be well acquainted with his unit, the situation it is

25     in, as well as the situation in the field.  Having all that in mind, he

Page 23696

 1     sets tasks that can be executed.

 2             It is possible -- or, actually, not only possible but I believe

 3     here I should also have said that what the superior was obliged to ensure

 4     was that it is realistic, could be executed, and that it is legal, since,

 5     as we all know, there were violations of the international laws of war in

 6     this war, much as in all other wars.  This is the word I suppose is

 7     missing.

 8             The legality is always understood and taken as something that is

 9     granted but, nevertheless, it should always be borne in mind when a

10     superior makes decisions or issues orders.

11        Q.   General, in your report, when you discuss the principles of

12     command and control, in paragraphs 127 and further, you discuss

13     responsibility.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 127,

15     please.

16        Q.   In paragraphs 133, 134, and 135, you discuss one's responsibility

17     for the acts of one's subordinates.  You say that a superior officer is

18     personally responsible for violations of the laws of war if he knew or

19     could have known that his subordinates or other units or individuals

20     prepared for such violations.  He is also responsible for not taking

21     measures if informed in a timely manner for failing to prevent them from

22     committing such acts.

23             Does this specific type of responsibility refer to all

24     subordinate units under a single commander?

25             MS. KORNER:  Just before the General answers, if Mr. Krgovic is

Page 23697

 1     reading out paragraph 134, it's been translated as:  A superior officer

 2     is personally responsible for the violation of the laws of war if he knew

 3     or could have known that his subordinates or other units or individuals

 4     prepared for such violations.

 5             Is that it?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             MS. KORNER:  It's not how it's been translated in the English.

 8     But that's -- okay.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This paragraph, 134, which you have

10     just read out, is, in its entirety, a quotation from the regulation about

11     the application of the provisions of international laws of war in the

12     Armed Forces of the then-SFRY.

13             As you know, Yugoslavia was a signatory to all international

14     conventions and undertook to honour all these rules.  I can answer your

15     question unambiguously.  The superior officer is responsible for any

16     violation of the international law of war by his subordinates under the

17     condition that he was aware of that fact.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

19        Q.   In paragraph 135, we read:

20             [As read] "A military officer is also personally responsible if

21     he knows that violations of the laws of war were committed but fails to

22     take disciplinary or criminal action against the perpetrator, or, does

23     not report the perpetrator to the competent military officer if he is not

24     competent for taking action."

25             General, this somewhat widens the obligation to instigate

Page 23698

 1     proceedings and, in addition, we learned that a military officer is

 2     personal [as interpreted] if he fails to report the perpetrators.  What

 3     is this about?

 4        A.   This, too, is a provision from the regulations that I have

 5     quoted.  In this specific case, if an individual learns of any violation

 6     of the international laws of war and is not competent - that was your

 7     question?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   - then it is possible that the individual who violated the

10     international laws of war does not belong to his units, or is not under

11     his command.  Due to that fact, the officer is not competent to take

12     action, but he must report such an individual to such a person who is

13     competent to take action.

14        Q.   This obligation of the military officer, with regard to

15     violations of the international laws of war, does it also apply to

16     resubordinated units?

17        A.   Certainly.  When I spoke about competencies, I said that the

18     officer was not -- or didn't have competence with regard to persons who

19     are not members of his units.  But when we speak about resubordinated

20     units, then that is the case.  The relationship, superior/subordinate, is

21     in place, and, in that case, the superior officer is competent to take

22     action against individuals who violated the international laws of war.

23        Q.   Does that also apply to the competence to instigate disciplinary

24     proceedings?

25        A.   Certainly.  All types of responsibility, from moral, through

Page 23699

 1     disciplinary, to criminal.  In a word, the superior officer has the right

 2     to take action against individuals who are members of his units or

 3     attached units or resubordinated units.

 4        Q.   General, please take a look at the section of your report that

 5     begins with paragraph 147.

 6             In this section, you elaborate on the "command (line)" relations

 7     in command and control.

 8             In paragraph 150, you speak about the relationship between

 9     superiors and subordinates, and with regard to rank or class and

10     position, juniors and seniors.

11             You provided a partial answer yesterday, but I would like you to

12     expand on these terms that you mention in paragraph 150.

13        A.   The relationship between a superior and a subordinate is the

14     basic and dominant relationship in any army.  It is regulated by the

15     organisation and the establishment or the order appointing a certain

16     officer to a position.  And, if pursuant to an order issued by the

17     president of the republic or the commander of the Main Staff, somebody is

18     appointed brigade commander, for example, then, he is the superior

19     officer of all officers, soldiers, and civilian serving in that brigade.

20     This is the superior/subordinate relationship.

21             However, there's also military education, there's also promotion

22     in the army, and that is mostly done through the system of ranks.  When I

23     spoke about officers, you get the first officer's rank when you graduate

24     from Military Academy and you get your first star.  And when we talk

25     about ranks, there is the junior/senior relationship.  After some time in

Page 23700

 1     the army, you are promoted to a higher rank.  From second lieutenant, you

 2     become lieutenant, and then captain.  And then you have to complete some

 3     course in order to become major, and after additional courses or training

 4     you become lieutenant-colonel, and so on.  So it is clear who is junior

 5     and who is senior.  But the one who is at the head of a unit is always in

 6     command, irrespective of his rank at any given moment.

 7             In practice, there have been exceptions, however rare, that the

 8     officer commanding a unit had a lower rank than -- of another officer in

 9     that unit.  That was very rare but it is possible.

10             That all goes hand in hand with some entitlements.  An officer

11     with a higher rank has a higher salary, but then there are also some

12     entitlements that go with the position, and that -- these are also

13     reflected in the income and so on.  We soldiers certainly have no

14     problems with understanding who is a superior and who is a subordinate.

15     But I can provide additional explanation, if necessary.

16        Q.   General, further on in your report, you also dealt with the

17     notions of decision and order.  So let us go to paragraph 163.

18             We see in paragraphs 162 and 163 your explanations of the

19     essence, or the essential elements of orders.  And you state that the

20     essential part of an order, or the key element, is the commander's

21     decision.

22             And further down, in paragraphs 164 and 165, you outline the

23     contents of a decision.

24             I'm specifically interested in the part of paragraph 165, where

25     you state the contents of a decision.  The conceptual part of the

Page 23701

 1     decision, the type of operation, combat action.  I needn't read on.

 2             And then you say basics of coordinated action and co-operation

 3     and combat readiness.

 4             Could you please elaborate, General, on the contents of a

 5     decision and what stems from it?

 6        A.   As is stated here, the decision is the most important part and

 7     the key element of any commander's order.  It is also the most difficult

 8     part.  For example, when a situation changes, all the organs of a

 9     command, if there is time, gather; if not, then the commander, within the

10     inner circle of the command, or sometimes even alone, considers the

11     situation, makes an assessment of the enemy and your own forces, the

12     situation in the territory, and the elements of time and space.  And

13     based on all that, including the suggestions of the individual organs, if

14     present, the commander makes a decision which includes the parts that you

15     have read out:  Type of operation, combat action, objective of operation,

16     the concept of manoeuvre, the classification of tasks into immediate and

17     subsequent, manner of engagement, basis for coordinated action and

18     collaboration and combat readiness, tasks and reinforcements for

19     subordinate units, composition and tasks of support units, composition

20     tasks of the reserve, basic organisation of combat operations support,

21     and so on.

22             So these are the mandatory elements of a decision, the mandatory

23     theoretical elements.  In practice, of course, not each and every element

24     must be present always.  It depends on the task, the forces at your

25     disposal, the units at your disposal.  If you lack anti-armour equipment,

Page 23702

 1     then, of course, you won't include that.  If you have no anti-aircraft

 2     armaments then you won't take that into consideration.  If there is no

 3     coordinated action, then you won't mention it.  But these are the

 4     mandatory elements of a decision.  And often commanders who want to show

 5     that they were attentive in college, they mention such elements as make

 6     sure [as interpreted] that there's coordinated action and co-operation,

 7     although in that specific task, there is no coordinated action or

 8     co-operation.

 9        Q.   When a coordinated action and co-operation is being planned, is

10     it necessary to adopt a plan to that effect or to further elaborate the

11     issue?

12        A.   Before taking a decision on a coordinated action, there is a

13     so-called coordination or synchronisation, as it is dubbed in the west,

14     which entails the drawing up a plan of operation as a broader document

15     which contains the tasks of individual elements or units participating in

16     the implementation of a specific tasks.  Provided there is time, and if

17     it is possible, the commander or his deputy, along with a number of

18     officers who play key roles in the execution of that task, carry out

19     commander's reconnaissance in order to make sure that this plan of

20     coordination fits the reality on the ground.  Based on this coordination

21     plan as a broader document, a plan of coordinated action is drawn up

22     which includes provisions as to who, with whom, and with how many troops

23     is going to take part in a coordinated action.  It gives spatial and

24     temporal designations, and it also specifies which units are going to be

25     involved.  This is another document that must be made as part of combat

Page 23703

 1     operations plan, again, is a broader document than the first two:  The

 2     plan of coordination and the plan of a coordinated action.

 3        Q.   General, further on, you dealt with the issue of combat documents

 4     in paragraph 173.  These documents serve for the implementation of the

 5     commander's decisions.

 6             Now my question is:  In the course of carrying out a combat task,

 7     and in view of the commander's decision to do so, is there any

 8     co-operation that exists there?  Or does the implementation of the

 9     decision of the commander receive a different treatment?

10        A.   The commander's decision is materialised by way of combat

11     documents that I talk about in paragraph 173.  It is made in writing and

12     distributed to the relevant units by means of an order.  In most cases,

13     these documents must be acted upon without fail.

14             Now, let me tell you that I didn't quite understand your

15     question.  And why are you talking about co-operation?  There is no

16     co-operation once a commander takes a decision.  Coordination may exist

17     during the preparation of a decision between individual organs of the

18     command until the stage is reached when a decision is made.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Co-operation may

20     exist.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once a decision is made, converted

22     into writing, and conveyed to the unit, it has to be carried out except

23     if it is in contravention of a law.

24             However, in the course of the implementation of this decision and

25     the combat task, it is possible within the framework and the contents of

Page 23704

 1     the task to have a certain form the co-operation between the unit

 2     implementing the commander's decision and other authorities on the

 3     ground.  And that is the only instance when we can speak about

 4     co-operation.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General, you also dealt in your report with command and control

 7     of the Armed Forces of Republika Srpska from paragraph 175 onwards.  And,

 8     here, you put forth certain conclusions that you, yourself, reached.

 9     However, I'm not going to ask you about it because we commented this

10     portion of your report earlier.

11             Now, let us go to paragraph 188 of your report.  Here, you speak

12     about those who were responsible for operational command and the

13     responsibilities of the commander of the Main Staff.

14             So could you please look at footnote 93, which is 65 ter 001 --

15     0081D2, and for other parties that's tab 59 in the Zupljanin Defence

16     binder.

17             If you look at Article 175 of the Law ...

18             A while ago, you spoke about the powers of the president and the

19     delegation of powers.  Can you briefly comment on this Article 175 and

20     compare it to the corresponding paragraph in your report?

21        A.   The president is, indeed, the Commander-in-Chief of the armed

22     forces, but the president cannot exercise command over the army on a

23     daily basis.  This is not the idea.  So the powers of the president are

24     also defined by the constitution and the Law on Defence.  The president

25     decides on the state of war, declares an imminent threat of war,

Page 23705

 1     et cetera, et cetera.

 2             However, daily command of the army, the use of the army, and the

 3     resolving all other solutions -- all other issues are delegated by the

 4     president to the commander of the Main Staff.  And that is in line with

 5     the provisions contained in Article 175 of the Law on Defence, I think.

 6     Due to that, I quoted this paragraph in my report.

 7        Q.   General, further on in your report, starting from 191, you speak

 8     about command and control of the VRS.

 9             Can you tell us, is there a parallel between the regulations and

10     the practice with the practice of the former JNA?

11        A.   When we speak about theoretical frameworks and some basic

12     principles of command, I already said that there was no difference

13     whatsoever.  Here, as well, it is also known who is on the top of the

14     pyramid and who is at the bottom.  Here we have the president of the

15     republic at the helm, as Commander-in-Chief, as was the case previously

16     in the JNA.  In other words, the principles and the responsibilities, the

17     command relations, the line relations, the reporting principles from

18     subordinates to superiors, the principle of sending information from

19     subordinate -- from superior to subordinate, all of this was implemented

20     in practice but it was adapted to the conditions of an imminent threat of

21     war, or maybe we should say a state of war.

22             I'm sorry.  Of course, there are some competencies here that were

23     expanded, but that was also envisaged by the rules and regulations of the

24     Yugoslav People's Army.  Because, here, you have a wide range of members

25     of the reserve forces who are now members of the army because they were

Page 23706

 1     mobilised in a state of war or an imminent state of war.

 2             There is also mention of the establishment of military courts and

 3     Military Prosecutor's offices and all other issues that are always part

 4     of an imminent threat of war.  However, when it comes to command and

 5     control, I don't think that there were any major differences in the

 6     principles that were applied.

 7        Q.   General, now that you mentioned an imminent threat of war and the

 8     declaration of a state of war, when we talk about the powers and

 9     responsibilities of unit commanders - I'm talking about the brigade and

10     corps commanders - is there any difference between their competencies and

11     responsibilities during an imminent threat of war and a declared state of

12     war, whilst they're engaged in carrying out combat operations?

13        A.   In my opinion, there is no major difference between a state of

14     imminent threat of war and a state of war when we talk about the

15     competencies and responsibilities of both superiors and subordinates.

16     The only difference is, if I may say so, psychological because we

17     soldiers know what an imminent threat of war is.  The very notion is

18     self-explanatory, it says that it is something that precedes a war, and

19     it's a state that cannot last perpetuate, can only last for a month or

20     two or three, once you realise that there is danger of war.  However,

21     once a war is declared and then it lasts for three, four, or five years,

22     then soldier [as interpreted] don't understand why it was not declared a

23     war.

24             Although I'm not a expert in legal matters and I'm doing my best

25     to understand them as much as I can, I can deduce that in terms of

Page 23707

 1     competencies and responsibilities, there were no substantial differences.

 2        Q.   General, in paragraph 193, you speak about the line or the chain

 3     of command.  And you say that:

 4             "No persons other than commanders ... were ever part of the chain

 5     of command at any level ..."

 6             And in paragraph 194, you say that:

 7             "The line of reporting goes in the opposite direction."

 8             Please explain the line of reporting and the chain of command

 9     from the aspect of the VRS.  Yesterday when you mentioned some examples

10     from practice, you were referring to the JNA.  So I'm interested in these

11     two relationships.  Perhaps it's possible to interpret them in

12     connection.

13        A.   I have already explained how a commander makes a decision and how

14     that decision is implemented.  Here, the chain of command goes from the

15     superior to the subordinate.  That's how the implementation of the

16     commander's decision proceeds.  It is the same in the VRS as in the

17     former JNA.  The same principle applies.

18             But the line of reporting goes in the opposite direction, from

19     the subordinates, from the lowest-ranking units, toward the superiors.

20     For example, every commander, and in the lowest level in the VRS was the

21     squad commander, then through the platoon commander, the company

22     commander, the battalion commander, and so on upwards, all these were

23     duty-bound, as provided for by the rules and regulations, to submit daily

24     reports about the events during the day or how they implemented their

25     tasks.

Page 23708

 1             Certainly these reports grew ever longer, as they went up the

 2     chain.  Sometimes reports were oral, either submitted personally or over

 3     the phone, and then, from a certain level, they had to be in writing, and

 4     it all depended on the situation in the battlefield.  But, certainly, the

 5     line of reporting goes bottoms up.

 6             I mentioned another line, and that's the line of information.  So

 7     in order to avoid confusion, it's the subordinates who are duty-bound to

 8     report.  And when these reports are received at a higher level - at the

 9     Main Staff or at the corps command - then, according to the theory and

10     the rules and regulations, they must be analysed for the previous day or

11     the previous week.  Then a integrated report is compiled upon which the

12     superior informs his subordinates.

13             So the subordinates report to the superior, and the superior

14     informs the subordinates.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Zecevic has just informed me that your words have not been

18     adequately interpreted.

19             Could you please explain this difference between reporting and

20     information.

21        A.   The line of reporting goes from the subordinates to the

22     superiors, from the lowest levels of military organisation towards the

23     highest forms of military organisation.  These subordinates are

24     duty-bound to report daily to the superior command about the

25     implementation of the commander's decision.

Page 23709

 1             When these reports are received at a certain level of command,

 2     they are analysed during the day, a summary report about the most

 3     important events is compiled, and then these higher levels inform the

 4     subordinate levels about the contents, positive or negative, about the

 5     need to take additional measures or whatever.

 6             So let me repeat:  The line of reporting goes from the lower

 7     levels to the upper levels; whereas, the line of information goes from

 8     the upper levels to the lower levels.  However, the chain of command is

 9     always the same.  It goes from the upper levels to the lower levels.

10        Q.   General, in paragraph 195, you say:

11             "All of the above that pertain to the commanding function and the

12     chain of command also pertains to temporary formations and resubordinated

13     units."

14             Could you explain, in a nutshell, which commanding functions you

15     mean that also pertain to temporary formations and resubordinated units?

16        A.   This must be read in connection with what is said in the

17     immediately preceding paragraphs:  The function of reporting and the

18     function of information.  All that is said about that also applies to

19     temporary formations and resubordinated units.

20        Q.   Does the principle of command, singleness of command, also apply

21     to temporary functions and resubordinated units?

22        A.   Yes.  I have repeated that more than once.  Any unit that is

23     incorporated into the -- into the units that you command becomes part of

24     your establishment.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Is this a convenient point, Mr. Krgovic?

Page 23710

 1             So we take the break to return in 20 minutes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. KRGOVIC:  May I, Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]... yes.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we finished this part that contains

11     paragraph 195.  And in the following paragraphs, you discuss

12     responsibility.  When answering some of my questions, you pointed out the

13     link.

14             Let us move onto the section of your report that begins with

15     paragraph 207 and the chapter heading is:  "Resubordination and

16     Coordination."

17             In paragraph 207, you list some terms:  Recruitment,

18     resubordination, attachment, coordination, coordinated action and

19     co-operation.  Before we start analysing your report in more detail,

20     could you please explain in simple terms what these terms I have read out

21     mean, or point out the distinction between their respective meanings and

22     that of resubordination?

23        A.   In this section of my work, I insist on the terms you mentioned.

24     That is because, to my mind, with regard to the character of the

25     indictment and the assignment I was given, these terms, apart from the

Page 23711

 1     term of command that has been discussed at great length, are very

 2     important, and they must be explained to the Trial Chamber with

 3     precision.  This is what I'm about to do now.

 4             These terms designate some actions that are taken in order for

 5     the commander's decision - mentioned before - to be implemented as

 6     efficient -- as efficiently and fully as possible.

 7             Recruitment is the initial action.  To do something, you must

 8     recruit personnel.  It is regulated through laws and regulations how

 9     units are -- how units are manned by personnel to carry out its tasks.

10     Take a given unit.  If you're its commander, for example, brigade

11     commander, then what is under your jurisdiction is something that can you

12     resubordinate during the execution of combat operations.  In other words,

13     you can execute this action of resubordination.

14             What does that mean?  A lower-ranking unit, and it's always a

15     lower-ranking unit, so I give the example of a brigade commander, he can

16     take a company from one battalion and resubordinate that company to

17     another commander because that company is one of his own units, and

18     that's how he goes about it.  Takes a company from one commander and

19     gives it to another for this other to use in order to accomplish a

20     certain mission.  That is the action described by that term.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, if I might interrupt the witness as he goes

22     forward.

23             General, looking at the opening portion of paragraph 207, where

24     you say, "Taking into account the importance of this topic and certain

25     disagreements," and you go on, as you go forward with your answer's to

Page 23712

 1     Mr. Krgovic's question, I'm not sure that I understand to what extent

 2     you're using these terms as they were generally or broadly understood as

 3     contrasted with how you choose for your own purposes to use the terms.

 4             Do you get the distinction that I'm asking you to clarify for me?

 5     Because you -- you -- you -- you say, that there are contradictions in

 6     the theoretical concepts, and I'm wondering whether the way that --

 7     sorry, Ms. Korner.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours I'm not sure that's what he means.  I

 9     rather feel he is being given information.  He doesn't explain it but I

10     think he has been given information about this case.

11             So I'm not sure that is he talking about theoretical concepts

12     by using those words:

13             "Taking into account the importance of this topic and certain

14     disagreements ..."

15             Your Honours may want to clarify that with him.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank -- thank -- thank you, Ms. Korner.  I ...

17             Let's proceed.  Thanks.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, sir, with regard to this introduction of yours about

20     making a distinction due to certain disagreements and contradictions and

21     theoretical legal documents, can you point out these contradictions and

22     show how they are linked with the importance of this case?

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Actually, I, myself, haven't really understood.

Page 23713

 1             When you mention contradictions, are you referring to a general

 2     theory or this specific case?  This is the gist of my question.

 3        A.   I was chief of the Military Academy, which is a known fact.  I

 4     first attended that school as a student, and I listened to what my

 5     teachers had to say and also read the textbooks explaining these terms.

 6     This is partly what I had in mind because, in some textbooks, it is very

 7     difficult to see the distinction between attachment and resubordination.

 8     And bearing in mind that, in this case, the use of units in combat

 9     operations is an important topic, in theory, as I said, few explanations

10     can be found, so that, to my mind, these units are actually attached to

11     military units.

12             I've already said that resubordination exists when you

13     resubordinate something that you have anyway.  But when somebody else

14     gives you something, and that somebody else can be a superior commander,

15     then that something you're given isn't really yours.  It doesn't belong

16     to you.  And we cannot speak of -- then we speak about attachment.

17             However, the relationship between superior and subordinate is

18     always in place.  There is something of a confusion present in theory,

19     and I believe I can claim that with full authority, and I have also

20     mentioned this as a problem to some theoreticians that these terms must

21     be better defined in our theory, I mean, Serbian theory.  So you can

22     resubordinate something that is yours, and if it is not yours, then it's

23     attachment.  But certainly whenever you receive something as a commander,

24     then the relationship, superior/subordinate is in place.

25             When you carry out some action, be it attachment or

Page 23714

 1     resubordination, the relationship between superior and subordinate is

 2     always in place.

 3             I don't know if I was clear enough.  And this is why I mentioned

 4     this in my introduction, especially due to the fact that there has been

 5     dual practice here when it comes to the use of police in combat

 6     operations.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  General, can I put, then, a clarifying question

 8     to you.

 9             What if you're not resubordinating a unit that belongs to you,

10     but you're, rather, claiming a unit from another authority.  That is to

11     say that you're claiming a unit that does not belong to you, and as a

12     consequence of your claim you receive that unit and put it into your own

13     jurisdiction.  What is that, in your view?  Is that resubordination, or

14     is it attachment, or is it something else?

15             Because in the examples that we have discussed at some length in

16     this trial, the understanding was that the army commander could claim to

17     have police units transferred to his command for particular purposes and

18     for a limited period of time, and at least I have been led to believe

19     that this is what, in military terms, would be called resubordination.

20             However, this does in the fit with the definition that you have

21     just offered.  So now I don't know where to settle my understanding.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to be even clearer.  I

23     understand your question.

24             This is precisely what I tried to stress.  In both instances, the

25     relationship, superior/subordinate, is present.  Even if you receive such

Page 23715

 1     a unit, as you say, by virtue of that act, it is being resubordinated to

 2     the commander in charge of the task.  There is no double command or

 3     parallel chain of command.

 4             To repeat:  In our theory, there are these two terms which I

 5     tried to distinguish.  If a commander has his own unit, he can also move

 6     parts of that unit around, and that's where the difference is between

 7     attachment and resubordination.

 8             In any case, if you receive a unit or if you are giving a unit to

 9     someone else, the relationship between the superior and the subordinate

10     persists.  It is still in existence.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Kovacevic, if I understand you well, a police

12     unit is received by the military commander as attachment.  That's an

13     attachment.

14             But the command structure is that of resubordination.  But -- do

15     you agree with that?  That's the superior/subordinate chain of command

16     that exists from the moment on that the police unit is attached to the

17     military.

18             Is that a correct summary?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.  Precisely.

20             There was something else I omitted.  It is only used for the

21     duration of the task, following which it is no longer part of that

22     formation.  It is precisely as you put it.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated]... thank you.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  General, this begs the question of whether a unit

25     that is being transferred - and I'm using now the word "transferred" to

Page 23716

 1     use a neutral word - a police unit that is being temporarily transferred

 2     to the command of the army for a particular purpose, for a combat

 3     operation, and for a limited period of time, is it possible that during

 4     the time in which the police unit is taking part in the combat operation

 5     the authority over that unit could be split so as to say that in certain

 6     respects, for instance, in respect of the control of the activities of

 7     the police units at the front line, that this authority would fall under

 8     the commanding army officer's jurisdiction, while the units in other

 9     respects could still be under the authority of the MUP, such as, for

10     instance, let's say as an example, criminal investigations and

11     prosecutions for any possible crimes that were committed by the police

12     unit during the time at the front line.

13             Do you see my point?  My -- my question to you is really:  How

14     strict do you describe the transfer of authority from the MUP to the army

15     and back again?  Because that is unclear.  Either the army commander has

16     full control, full and unlimited control in every respect over the police

17     unit, or, given the circumstances, you may have situations where,

18     actually, the army commander has control over the unit in certain

19     respects, while the MUP retains control over the unit in some other

20     respects.  So, in other words, there is a partition, temporary partition

21     of control over that unit.

22             My question to you:  Would that be possible?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the

24     question.

25             That is not possible.  As of the moment the police unit is made

Page 23717

 1     part of the military formation, it temporarily loses its police

 2     authority.  Their personnel are no longer authorised officials.  They, in

 3     turn, become fighters, soldiers, under a single command.  There's no

 4     parallel control or parallel command.  That is also regulated in the

 5     army.  There's no grey area there.  As of the moment they are sent until

 6     the moment they returned to the police, they are under the competence and

 7     authority of the military organisation.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, I understand as much.  And, of course, for

 9     the purpose of the fighting, for the combat activity, that's the way it

10     has to be.  The army commander must have the superior authority in

11     respect of the combat activities, the fighting at the front line.

12             But my question was really, rather, whether in some other

13     non-combat-related activities the MUP could still retain a limited

14     control over its policemen.  And the example that I gave you was, for

15     instance, criminal prosecution.  Because, if I understood this correctly,

16     and you may correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understood it correctly,

17     the practical problem would very often be that the police unit would be

18     attached or resubordinated to the army for such a short period that it

19     would be impractical for the military police and the military courts to

20     conduct the investigations, because, once these things were under way,

21     the police unit would long since have been transferred back to the MUP.

22             So it would make sense, perhaps, that, for activities of this

23     kind, the authority would remain with the MUP so that it would be the

24     civilian courts and the civilian investigators who would take over the

25     investigations and possibly the prosecution of these people.

Page 23718

 1             So I -- I put my question to you again:  Is it excluded in any

 2     circumstance that, as for the investigation and prosecution of crimes in

 3     certain conditions, the authority could be still falling under the MUP or

 4     under the civilian authorities, and not the military police and the

 5     military courts?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my opinion that it is not

 7     possible.

 8             As of the moment they are made part of the army, they are under

 9     the jurisdiction of Military Prosecutors and military courts.  This is my

10     position.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Thank you.

12             Back to you, Mr. Krgovic.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, you also deal with the term of resubordination, as well

15     as a number of other terms.

16             Can you tell us briefly what seems to be the action and what

17     seems to be the relationship with all these terms when we discuss

18     recruitment, resubordination, attachment, coordination, coordinated

19     action and co-operation.

20             What is the relationship; and what is the action?

21        A.   I'll try to be more precise this time around.

22             When we talk about recruitment, attachment, coordination,

23     coordinated action and co-operation, all these, for the most part, are

24     combat-related activities, save for co-operation.  The relationship, I

25     reiterate, is always, always, that of the singleness of command and the

Page 23719

 1     relationship superior/subordinate.

 2             There is an exception, though, which is co-operation.  More

 3     frequently than not, it is in co-operation with civilian structures in

 4     the field, which means that the level of participation of all those

 5     involved is at the same level.  It's a peer-to-peer relationship.  In all

 6     other categories, the relationship of superior and subordinate is

 7     maintained.

 8        Q.   Did I understand you well?  Resubordination, or, rather,

 9     recruitment, attachment, coordination, coordinated action and

10     co-operation -- sorry.  Are what?

11        A.   Co-operation.

12        Q.   And resubordination?

13        A.   It's the relationship in the armed forces.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, it may just be me, but I

15     simply didn't understand that answer to Mr. Krgovic's question:

16             Did I understand you well?  Resubordination -- or, recruitment

17     attachment, coordination, coordinated action and co-operation are what?

18             And the answer came:  Co-operation.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's try again.

20        Q.   General, partially it was my mistake too.

21             Recruitment, attachment, coordination, coordinated action and

22     co-operation are what?

23        A.   Those are the activities, the actions; whereas, resubordination

24     is the relationship.  A regulated relationship of different parts within

25     any given units.

Page 23720

 1        Q.   Thank you, General, that's what I wanted to ask you.

 2             In the rest of your report, particularly paragraph 216, you say

 3     that in a state of war, an imminent threat of war, and in other

 4     emergencies, the police may be used to carry out combat tasks of the

 5     armed forces in accordance with the law.

 6             The paragraph goes on to say:

 7             "While carrying out combat activities of the armed forces, the

 8     police shall be subordinated to the officer in charge of the combat

 9     operations."

10             Let me ask you this:  As part of the military doctrine, as well

11     as practice and in terms of the law, can you explain to us why this is

12     so?  Why is the police subordinated to the officer in charge?

13        A.   What you have just read, Mr. Krgovic, is something that I took

14     over from the Law on All People's Defence, specifically Article 104, as I

15     stated in my report.

16             What is highlighted here is that there is such a possibility and

17     such possibility is allowed involving the use of police in the course of

18     carrying out combat tasks, and, in my view, that should happen only

19     exceptionally.

20             However, in the second paragraph of this Article, it is decidedly

21     and clearly and precisely stipulated that, if that happens, the police

22     force will be subordinated to the officer in charge who is directing the

23     combat operation.

24             It seems to me that yesterday I spoke about this to a certain

25     extent and that I said that this kind of legislature is fully justified

Page 23721

 1     because control and direction of combat operations is exclusively being

 2     studied at military schools and military academies and never at police

 3     academies.  The police is trained to carry out different tasks.  For that

 4     reason, the police is subordinated to the officer who is in charge of

 5     combat operations and who is trained to do so.

 6        Q.   General, in paragraph 217, you speak about this relationship, and

 7     you said that, as of the moment they report to the officer in charge and

 8     the unit -- the whole unit will be resubordinated to the command of the

 9     unit that it is attached to and they become an integral part of the

10     military structure.

11             You started answering this question, though, but can you tell us

12     again when exactly is this moment in time when they become military

13     conscripts and until which time they retain that status that involves all

14     the duties and responsibilities stemming from that status?

15        A.   A while ago, I answered this question to the Honourable Chamber,

16     but I'm going to repeat it.

17             As of the moment when a unit leaves a public security station

18     premises, that is the moment when their status of conscripts commences,

19     provided this dispatch is regulated by a proper document.  It will last

20     until such time as the police members return back to their public

21     security station.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  General, could I just ask you here:  When the

23     police unit returns to its public security station, is that triggered by

24     a written order by the army commander who releases officially the police

25     unit?  Or can the police unit return to their CSB or their SJB without

Page 23722

 1     any firmer -- without any further formal orders being issued.  That is to

 2     say, once the combat activities are over, then they just go home.

 3              I mean -- so my question is:  Does the return of the police unit

 4     back to its public security station require a written order by the army

 5     commander to release them; do you know?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honour, it is possible,

 7     in practice, that the document on the sending out of the unit already

 8     contains all the details concerning the duration of the tasks that

 9     they're going to perform.  That's one way to do it.

10             If the document only stipulates the detachment without

11     stipulating the time-frame because sometimes you don't know how this was

12     going to last, then a new document must be issued governing the return of

13     this unit to the police station.  It is not possible for such a unit to

14     leave the front or the unit that it is attached to of their own volition.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Just as a follow-up to the question of Judge Harhoff.

17             Can you tell us who issues this document on the termination of

18     the need to have a specific police unit engaged in combat operations.  In

19     this second instance when you said that the original act does not

20     stipulate the time-frame, who is the one who decides how long the need is

21     going to last?

22        A.   Well, it can be done by the commander to whom the unit was

23     attached, and he reports on this to his superior commander, provided he

24     had completed the task given to him by his commander.  But a more proper

25     way would be, and it would be in line with the rules, that the same

Page 23723

 1     entity that issues the document on the sending of the unit, the same

 2     entity would issue a document stipulating the return of the unit.

 3        Q.   Are we talking about a military commander?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, exclusively a military commander.

 5        Q.   I beg your pardon.  General, in your report, you spoke about -- I

 6     can see it in paragraph 218, that you speak about coordination.  And you

 7     extensively explained this term "coordination," but you are putting it

 8     within the function of command and control.  Can you tell us who is it

 9     who decides on coordination and draws up coordination plans, and can you

10     give us more details about this?

11        A.   Yes.  Coordination is one of the functions of command.  Once a

12     decision is made by the commander, as of that moment, the planning of

13     combat operations is being activated, and that's the first step and first

14     function of command.  Once the plan is finalised, then the second

15     function of command is called organising.  When an organisation on how

16     the decision is going to be implemented, then we have co-operation as the

17     third component of the command, and there is a fourth component as well,

18     which involves direct orders in order to implement the commander's

19     decision, and, finally, the fifth function involves control of what has

20     been implemented.

21             Now, why is coordination required?  Combat operations are

22     extremely complex.  They involve a large number of participants.  It

23     becomes even more complicated the higher the level.  Coordination is a

24     broader term which ensures that all these elements within the combat

25     deployment or between different forces participating in a task to

Page 23724

 1     cooperate -- but, rather, not cooperate, to function as best as possible

 2     during the execution of the task.  Its ultimate purpose is -- and it is

 3     being resolved specifically through the plan of coordinated action which

 4     is a narrower term than coordination, is basically to avoid to have own

 5     forces be exposed to friendly fire, to put it simply.

 6             So one has to know when air force is going to be engaged, when

 7     anti-armour units are going to be engaged, artillery and infantry, and

 8     this is the purpose of coordinated action which is preceded by

 9     coordination, which is a broader term, and then we go to the stage of the

10     coordinated action in order to conduct it properly.  It happened during

11     the civil war that some position of our army were targeted by our air

12     force.  And you see also that currently in Libya and during the NATO

13     aggression of -- against Yugoslavia.  We have instances of the so-called

14     collateral damage.  And that is the worse possible outcome of bad

15     coordination and coordinated action and co-operation, particularly if a

16     large-scale operation is involved that has huge numbers of participants

17     and enormous fire-power.

18        Q.   General, I will only ask you, since this is close to the end of

19     the day and we're all tired, just to slow down a bit for the benefit of

20     the interpreters.

21             General, can you please look at paragraph 224 of your report.  It

22     deals with coordinated action, and you tackled the notion of coordinated

23     action as a form of coordination and as a narrower term than coordination

24     in your previous answer.

25             Can you tell me this:  If you have a situation where you have a

Page 23725

 1     number of units in a coordinated action with the purpose of completing a

 2     certain task, what relations exist between the units involved in a

 3     coordinated action and who commands these units in such circumstances?

 4        A.   It is always the commander who commands all the units that are

 5     within his formation.  I just said that a coordinated action is organised

 6     between various elements.  It is the unit commander who approves the plan

 7     for a coordinated action, which contains such details as to who, or when,

 8     and with whom, in which area, and on which task is going to be engaged,

 9     as well as within which period of time they're going to act in

10     coordination.  And there can be no ambiguity there.  In other words, it

11     is always the commander, whether we talk about brigade, battalion, a

12     corps, the one who directs combat operation, including a coordinated

13     action as part of the execution of combat tasks.

14        Q.   General, when we see a commander's order to execute a military

15     operation, and he says, Carry out the task in coordinated action with MUP

16     units, what relationship is there between these units in coordinated

17     action and the command?  Are these units subordinated to that command,

18     these MUP units?

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that is -- that is -- this is the

20     construction of the matter and that's a leading question.  The proper

21     question should have stopped -- it's a bit late now, but the proper

22     question is:  What is the relationship between those units?

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's not a leading question because if you look at

24     the previous answer to my question, he said:  I just want to clarify it.

25     I have basis for that.

Page 23726

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the question was:  When we see a

 2     commander's order to execute a military operation, and he says, Carry out

 3     the task in coordinated action with the MUP, what is the relationship

 4     between these units in coordinated action and the command.  This is where

 5     the question should have stopped.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Look at the answer what he says.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, as I say, it is a bit late now,

10     but given my objections yesterday and given that Mr. Krgovic knows that

11     this is it the crux of the matter, that was most improper.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Let's get on with it.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, you said as much.  Could you please answer the question.

15     What is the relationship between units in coordinated action?  You

16     provided an answer a short while ago.  I just wanted additional

17     clarification.

18        A.   Units in coordinated action carrying out combat tasks act

19     together, and I repeat for the umpteenth time, that they are always under

20     the command and control of one commander.  We can't have two people in

21     command.

22             When I say, or when it is said "in coordinated action with," this

23     only shows that there's some relationship between them, but they're

24     always under the command of the one commander who leads the operation or

25     that unit.

Page 23727

 1        Q.   Which commander is that?

 2        A.   It is always the military commander.  Depending on the particular

 3     case or the example, it can be a battalion commander, a brigade

 4     commander, corps commander, whatever.

 5        Q.   General, answering Judge Harhoff's question, you spoke about the

 6     authority to instigate proceedings against police officers who did

 7     something unlawful while they were acting in the -- as members of a unit

 8     acting with the military.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Please let us look at 1D00411 now,

10     which is tab 99.

11        Q.   This is a document of the 1st Krajina Corps Command, and we see

12     that it's the forward command post.  The date is October 1992.  We see

13     that the subject is the abandonment of positions by police members.  We

14     see to who it was sent, the Banja Luka CSB, and the command of the

15     1st Krajina Corps, as well as the 43rd Motorised Brigade.

16             The commander, or somebody acting on his behalf, hereby informs

17     these organisations about the following:  "We have received the following

18     telegram from the RS army Main Staff ..."

19             And then he quotes:

20             "We hereby inform you that Prijedor police units members have

21     abandoned their position and fled back to their towns.

22             "Immediately file criminal reports for each individual and

23     undertake other measures to inform the public, publishing their

24     names ..."

25             And it goes on to say what else should be done.

Page 23728

 1             This -- the purpose of this document is information.  Can you

 2     comment on the contents of the document?

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, it is not correctly translated.  [Overlapping

 4     speakers] ... not it's not [Overlapping speakers].  I just said --

 5             MS. KORNER:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  I don't know what was

 6     said before because what was said before had all the hallmarks of a

 7     leading question but it wasn't interpreted.

 8             Now what did Mr. Krgovic said before this?

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

11             MS. KORNER:  No, I heard -- I heard -- what I heard was:  This is

12     for information.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]... I

14     apologise.  I said abandonment of positions by police members,

15     information.  I just read what the document says.

16             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I'm not blaming the interpreters,

17     and it may that be Mr. Krgovic is going very quickly, but today we've had

18     real problems.  The interpretation is well behind, and it makes it very

19     difficult to object on what is coming as a leading question.  So I would

20     therefore ask that Mr. Krgovic slows down and there's always a pause

21     before the General starts answering the question.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, I read from the document, and you can see it yourself.

24     Could you please provide a short comment about this document with regard

25     to the authority to instigate certain actions?

Page 23729

 1        A.   Mr. Krgovic, this is an example that explains my position, as I

 2     put it to Judge Harhoff when he outlined what could happen.

 3             So what does this telegram say?  Police members abandoned their

 4     combat task at a time when they were soldiers.  The event in question

 5     happened in Prijedor, as far as I know, in the zone of responsibility of

 6     the 1st Krajina Corps.  As far as I know, there was a military court and

 7     Military Prosecutor's office with that command.  With this document, the

 8     commander of the Main Staff orders -- and we can see that it contains a

 9     quotation; there are quotation marks.  He orders that the corps command,

10     whose responsibility it is, file criminal reports against some

11     individuals.  This document also shows that the corps commander informs

12     the CSB in Banja Luka, from where these police officers were probably

13     sent to carry out this combat task, and I believe that it was right to do

14     so.

15             All this corroborates my position; namely, that police officers,

16     when they carry out combat tasks, that they're under the command of a

17     military officer, and, by virtue of that fact, he has the authority to

18     launch proceedings against them when they commit disciplinary offences,

19     misdemeanours, or crimes.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  General, you seem to suggest that this is

21     General Talic's order to the Military Prosecutor and to the military

22     police to file criminal reports and so on.

23             However, the way it looks to me is that this is an instruction

24     addressed to the Banja Luka CSB.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's what it looked

Page 23730

 1     like to me when I first saw it.  But the punctuation clearly shows - and

 2     I'm referring to the colon and the quotation that follows in quotation

 3     marks - that this is a document that the commander of the Main Staff sent

 4     to the corps commander.  And he tells him, We hereby inform you, and so

 5     on.  And the commander of the Main Staff orders the corps commander to

 6     initiate proceedings.  The corps commander only informs the CSB of this.

 7             The other interpretation would be possible if there were no

 8     quotation marks; in other words, if there were no quotation.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I can point out that, in fact, if one

10     looks at the original also there is an set of quotation marks in the

11     second paragraph but not on the third, but those have been put in in the

12     English translation for some unknown reason.  Not that I think it's going

13     to make much difference, but just so that that's clear.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, if I can be of assistance.

15             Your Honours, I note that the original has only two, one at the

16     beginning, and one at the end.  And that is --

17             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  So, therefore, the whole document as

19     precisely as the -- as the witness confirmed is --

20             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MS. KORNER:  It's sufficient, thank you, Mr. Zecevic, to simply

23     point out that there is an error in the English translation.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I do agree with that.  Thank you.  I'm sorry,

25     I was misunderstanding then.

Page 23731

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is a little time left and then I'll return to what you

 3     discuss in your report.

 4             Paragraph 229.  You speak about coordinated action of various

 5     elements of the combat disposition of a brigade.  Then in paragraph 232,

 6     you speak about the coordinated action plan.

 7             My question is:  The coordinated action plan and all the elements

 8     you listed here, are they included in the final document?  The combat

 9     document.

10        A.   The coordinated action plan is part of a more comprehensive

11     document, and that is the plan of combat activities.  I have already

12     explained why coordinated action is organised between various elements of

13     the combat disposition of a unit.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished this

15     topic and about to continue with another, so I think that we can finish

16     for today.

17             And, for the record, I may need another 30 to 40 minutes

18     tomorrow, so I kindly ask the Trial Chamber to accord me some 20 minutes

19     more than expected so I can finish my examination.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             So we take the adjournment.  And tomorrow, unless there is a

22     change, we're in Courtroom III.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

Page 23732

 1                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.