Page 24418
1 Tuesday, 20 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
7 Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. May we take the appearances today,
10 please.
11 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honour. For the Office of the
12 Prosecutor, I'm Tom Hannis, along with Indah Susanti.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and
14 Ms. Deirdre Montgomery appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
17 Aleksandar Aleksic, and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Just one very brief matter, with your leave,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
23 MR. ZECEVIC:
24 Well, Your Honours, you will recall that on the very first day of
25 the sitting in September Ms. Korner brought up the matter of scheduling,
Page 24419
1 the further scheduling in this case. In the meantime, I spoke to our
2 friends from the Office of the Prosecutor, and they indicated that they
3 will be filing the motion for rebuttal witnesses. And the assurances I
4 got from Ms. Korner was that it would be filed by end of this month, and
5 I would kindly like to put that on the record and ask the Trial Chamber
6 to issue an order in that respect that -- or suggest to the Office of the
7 Prosecutor that, indeed, they file this by the end of the month, which
8 will give us the time to -- adequate time for prepare for these rebuttal
9 witnesses, if, of course, the Trial Chamber decides to adhere to that
10 request.
11 Thank you very much.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, that's correct, and that's fine.
15 That's reasonable. But I just want to put on the record, we would like
16 to reserve the right, however, if there is some future witness to come
17 after the end of the month that raises something that might, in our view,
18 deem it necessary to ask for a rebuttal regarding that witness, that at
19 that time we would make a proposal.
20 JUDGE HALL: So do I correctly infer what you have just said that
21 you confirm Mr. Zecevic's understanding that you will be filing by the
22 end of this month? Save for what you have just indicated.
23 MR. HANNIS: Correct.
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
25 MR. HANNIS: Those that we now are aware of and have a position
Page 24420
1 about, we will file by the end of the month.
2 I just wanted to reserve for the possibility that something may
3 occur with witnesses yet to come.
4 JUDGE HALL: We -- that's understandable. Yes, thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: There is -- there is an oversight on the part of the
7 Chamber yesterday in terms of the pseudonym sheet. We forgot to order
8 that it be entered as an exhibit, which we now do. So it's an exhibit
9 and should be given a number under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, pseudonym sheet shall be given
11 Exhibit 2D154, under seal. Thank you.
12 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: We also have an another little matter to deal
15 with before the witness comes in regarding the Prosecution's motion to
16 reopen its case in-chief.
17 This motion was filed by the Prosecution on the 26th of July, and
18 the Prosecution asks to reopen in order to tender a number of documents
19 from the bar table. The documents concerned are death certificates and
20 other documents on which the Prosecution wishes to rely in order to
21 establish the death of a number of individuals. The documents are
22 further specified in confidential Annex A to the motion.
23 Now, before taking a decision on this motion, the Chamber directs
24 the Prosecution to provide the dates on which it sent out the Requests
25 for Assistance to the respective countries, which led it to being
Page 24421
1 provided with the documents in question. And we further direct the
2 Prosecution to include information on any still outstanding
3 Requests for Assistance pertaining to the proof of death database in this
4 case. And, finally, we ask the Prosecution to provide us with at least a
5 template translation of the documents.
6 And this is to be filed by the close of business on Friday, the
7 30th of September.
8 That's all. Thank you.
9 JUDGE HALL: So could we go into closed session so the witness
10 could be conducted back to the stand by the usher.
11 [Closed session]
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
21 you.
22 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, you spoke about the situation in Banja Luka in late 1991
24 yesterday. We saw some documents. And now can you tell us what the
25 situation in the town of Banja Luka was in 1992; first and foremost, the
Page 24428
1 security situation?
2 A. Well, as for the security situation, it was complex in 1992, and
3 the economic situation was difficult. Life was hard. The complexity of
4 the security situation in Banja Luka is reflected in a large number of
5 armed members of the military, also other persons armed with
6 long-barrelled weapons. Automobiles without licence plates were driven
7 or they had stolen licence plates from other cars. There was car theft.
8 And public security staff were unable to stand up to such groups that
9 were armed with long-barrelled weapons, because there were many.
10 There were about 200 staff of -- at the police stations. The
11 police officers were not trained for carrying out suitable activities,
12 appropriate activities, against these perpetrators. They were trained,
13 like me, for routine tasks. The core was about 4.000 men-strong, as far
14 as I know. Then there was a large number of reserve soldiers.
15 The military police was in charge of military personnel,
16 including reserve forces. They had the right to check their IDs and
17 carry out controls and arrest them, if necessary, as well as initiate
18 proceedings against them.
19 I said at the outset that the situation -- I apologise.
20 Q. Excuse me, I have to interrupt you. We'll come to this later.
21 The armed men that you mentioned, what kind of uniforms they
22 wore?
23 A. People armed with long barrels used to wear different sorts of
24 uniforms: Camouflage, multi-coloured, all sort of uniforms with all sorts
25 of insignia on their caps, on their uniforms, on parts of their uniforms.
Page 24429
1 As for the economic situation in town, it was complex, as I have
2 already mentioned. It meant that the companies were not working. There
3 wasn't enough of raw goods. Markets were unavailable. There was almost
4 no transport of goods into the area because the roads were blocked. The
5 corridor was closed at the time. Only shops were open in town. However,
6 the shelves were almost empty. There was a little bit of food and other
7 products necessary for daily life.
8 The salaries were very low. There was inflation. I'll give you
9 an example. My salary was sufficient for me to buy some of the things,
10 some of the food, in shops today. However, the day after, I could not
11 buy even a box of matches with the remainder of the money, or, for
12 instance, some handkerchiefs.
13 Also, public transport was not functioning properly in town. It
14 was limited because of the lack of fuel.
15 On the positive side, schools were open, elementary schools, high
16 schools, and the university.
17 The movement in town was allowed until the moment of curfew,
18 which means that from 2200 until 5.00 in the morning nobody was allowed
19 to move through town.
20 As I said, the remuneration, or, as we say it, salaries, were low
21 while the inflation was high. People used to take their own belongings
22 from their houses, for instance, pots or plates, sometimes even
23 furniture; those items of furniture that could be taken out of the house.
24 All this clearly paints a picture of a very hard economic situation in
25 the town of Banja Luka.
Page 24430
1 Let me tell you another thing. My wife worked in another
2 company. She's highly qualified, university education. However, that
3 company would work for two days. Then it would stop working for three
4 days. Her salary was very low, or there was no salary at all. And,
5 believe me, this is a company situated 5 to 7 kilometres from the centre
6 of the town, the part where we live. Every day she went there on her
7 bike, regardless of the weather conditions, rain, snow, or ice.
8 Q. Thank you. Could you describe the situation regarding the
9 electrical energy supplies.
10 A. The situation with the electricity was variable, if I may put it
11 that way. Sometimes there was electricity. And when there were combat
12 actions around Jajce and the hydropower plant, there was no electricity
13 in the whole of Banja Luka. Sometimes it was on; sometimes it was off.
14 So we, the citizens, the population, didn't know when exactly there would
15 be electricity or not, so we tried to make our use most efficient.
16 Q. Don't mention the part of the town where you live, but could you
17 describe the composition of the position there?
18 A. The part of the town where I live, even before the war, it was
19 mixed, as we say. Multi-ethnic. I'm not going to say which part of town
20 exactly it is.
21 During the war in 1992, the ethnic composition of that part of
22 town remained the same, I think. The same as it was before the war
23 during the SFRY.
24 Q. When the power supplies were cut, how was it done? Was it from
25 part to part of town or in some other way?
Page 24431
1 A. Mr. Aleksic, I think that nobody could know which parts of town,
2 which streets, which house, houses, housed Bosniaks or Croats or others.
3 There were no rules related to the cut-offs. There were some days when,
4 for example, a part of town would be without electricity, a particular
5 settlement or even a particular street, but there were no cut-offs or
6 restrictions, if you'd permit me to say, for the parts in town -- for the
7 parts of the town where only Bosniaks or Croats lived without any Serb
8 neighbours.
9 Q. Thank you. You said that there were some restrictions in the bus
10 traffic. However, the public transport in Banja Luka did function at the
11 time?
12 A. The public transport in Banja Luka functioned with some
13 restrictions. Some of the lines would have daily frequency or five or
14 ten buses a day. However, when the service was restricted. Sometimes it
15 would be only one departure a day, or even the line would be down for
16 several days. It all depended on the availability of the fuel.
17 Q. Excuse me, could you describe the situation related to the
18 market-place?
19 A. The market-place in Banja Luka was one of the best supplied
20 market-places in that part of the state. However, due to combat
21 activities -- and, excuse me, let me tell you one more thing. The
22 surroundings of Banja Luka is a well-known agriculture area. In 1992,
23 the market-place in Banja Luka was not well supplied. You could find
24 some things but not very many.
25 I think that the reason for that is the fact that many people
Page 24432
1 were mobilised. Fields were not tilled. There were some vegetable
2 gardens around houses, but the market-place was in a very difficult
3 situation.
4 Q. Thank you. You said that the movement about town was allowed
5 except during the curfew. Can you tell us whose decision was it? Which
6 organ proclaimed the curfew?
7 A. As I have already stated, the curfew was on between 10.00 in the
8 evening and 5.00 in the morning. I know that it was proclaimed by a
9 decision by the Secretariat for National Defence. There were some
10 exceptions to the curfew. Members of the police were free to move about,
11 as well as the military police and also, as far as I can remember,
12 members of the Territorial Defence.
13 Q. But then could you specify who was subject to the curfew?
14 A. As the name itself implies, curfew, or "police hour" in B/C/S,
15 means that nobody is allowed to move around between 10.00 in the evening
16 and 5.00 in the morning, and it goes for all the citizens of Banja Luka.
17 Q. What was the purpose of this decision promulgated by the
18 Secretariat for National Defence?
19 A. The purpose of this decision by the Secretariat for
20 National Defence whereby the curfew was introduced was to prevent
21 movement during the night, movement of people armed with long barrels in
22 all sorts of uniforms. I already stated that they had all sorts of
23 uniforms, all sorts of insignia, on their caps, on parts of their
24 uniforms, shooting around the town, activating of explosive devices in
25 streets, in courtyards, shooting in the air, and so on and so forth. In
Page 24433
1 short, in order to ensure the security of the citizens.
2 Q. Who was authorised to issue permits to move about the town during
3 the curfew?
4 A. The permits authorising movement during the curfew were issued by
5 the Secretariat for National Defence.
6 Q. Do you happen to know who was authorised to issue permits to move
7 outside Banja Luka?
8 A. The movement outside of Banja Luka towards other places was also
9 subject to the decisions and permits issued by the Secretariat for
10 National Defence.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether, in Banja Luka town, there
12 were any police check-points?
13 A. Yes. I used to work in the relevant service. The police
14 check-points were established and positioned on major roads, or, more
15 precisely, on all the entry and exit points from Banja Luka.
16 There were check-points on exits from Banja Luka. First
17 location 0, as we used to call it. That is the intersection towards
18 Mrkonjic Grad, Skender Vakuf, and Jajce. The second check-point was
19 established in the territory of the police station -- I apologise. There
20 was a check-point in the territory of the central police station. Then
21 there was another check-point in the territory of the police station
22 Mejdan. It was positioned at the Mejdan viaduct, as we call it. I'm not
23 going to go into details about the exact position. Then there was the
24 settlement of Vrbanja, where Muslims, Bosniaks were a majority
25 population. And then there was also the settlement of Debeljaci, where
Page 24434
1 Croats were majority population. And then towards Celinac, Kotor Varos,
2 and further on.
3 The third check-point was established at the Prijedor
4 intersection, or Prijedor loop, as we call it. It was close to the
5 prison. The Tunjice prison. That is the exit point towards Prijedor,
6 Gradiska, Laktasi, and so on.
7 Q. Thank you. In your estimate, how far were those check-points
8 from the centre of Banja Luka?
9 A. Well, the check-points were maybe some 5 kilometres from the
10 centre of Banja Luka.
11 Q. You stated that the three check-points belonged to the
12 territorial jurisdiction of the police stations Centar, Budzani [phoen],
13 and Mejdan. Could you tell us to which organisational units belonged the
14 policemen manning the check-points?
15 A. I've already stated that the check-points belonged to different
16 police stations. Centar, Mejdan, and Budzak. The police stations
17 Centar, Mejdan, and Budzak, belonged to the public security station
18 Banja Luka.
19 Q. Do you know the ethnic composition of those police stations,
20 especially Budzak and Mejdan, after the 1st of April and for the
21 remainder of 1992?
22 A. Before I address the ethnic composition of police stations, let
23 me say that the Mejdan Police Station used to cover an area with a large
24 number of Bosniaks, so the ethnic composition of this police station
25 reflected the ethnic composition of the population. You have to bear in
Page 24435
1 mind that the territory of the Mejdan Police Station included two
2 settlements with majority Bosniak population, Vrbanja and Debeljaci. In
3 Debeljaci there was a majority of Croats. Further on, the Budzak Police
4 Station had a mixed composition because there were many Croats living
5 there.
6 The Centar Police Station was rather mixed. There were Serbs in
7 the previous two stations as well. However, in the centre there were all
8 sorts of people.
9 Q. Thank you. At the beginning of your answer relating to the
10 situation in Banja Luka, you said that the police force was insufficient
11 to deal with the situation.
12 So could you tell us whether measures and activities were
13 undertaken against the perpetrators of criminal offences in this
14 particular situation, if you know?
15 A. I know that against the perpetrators of criminal offences, as
16 well as the gravest of crimes, such as murders, throwing of explosives,
17 shooting in the air, measures envisaged by law were undertaken.
18 Q. Which measures?
19 A. Well, deprivation of liberty, criminal prosecution, drafting of
20 criminal reports, and reports submitted to the prosecutor's office.
21 Q. Do you maybe remember some of the names or some of the criminal
22 groups that were prosecuted at the time for the gravest criminal
23 offences?
24 A. Well, let me tell you, Banja Luka town consists of a number of
25 settlements. I'm not going to say any names. So each part of town had
Page 24436
1 its own criminals, if I can put it that way. It was a long time ago, to
2 be honest. But I do remember some of the people that were prosecuted,
3 people who were bent on creating chaos in the town.
4 There was Mandic, Javorac, then Java Goran, Kajkuta, Palackovic.
5 Vedran Palackovic.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please move
9 into private session briefly.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
11 [Private session]
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17 [Closed session]
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22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
24 you.
25 JUDGE HALL: And we return in 20 minutes.
Page 24444
1 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
3 JUDGE HALL: We move into closed session so that the witness can
4 be brought in.
5 [Closed session]
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
15 you.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I'm going to ask just a few questions.
20 My name is Slobodan Zecevic, and I defend Mr. Mico Stanisic. We
21 haven't been introduced yet and I wanted to introduce myself.
22 Sir, today, on page -- I think it was page 20, you mentioned
23 check-points established in the suburbs of Banja Luka at three different
24 places. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes.
Page 24454
1 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the action executed by the MUP of the
2 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had the code-name
3 Check-Point 91?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You should always make a short pause between my question and your
6 answer because I have to have enough time to switch off my microphone.
7 A. I apologise.
8 Q. What do you know about this action, Check-Point 91? Do you
9 remember when it started and what was its purpose?
10 A. If I understood your question correctly, the introduction of
11 check-points at certain locations in the Banja Luka town, and I mentioned
12 three locations, was aimed at the prevention of the armed formations,
13 members of the TO and other armed groups, as well as individuals,
14 carrying long barrels, as well as civilians armed with long barrels. The
15 idea was that they should not be able to enter or exit the town or
16 certain settlements and disturb the public order by opening fire at
17 facilities and buildings, by shooting in the air, by throwing explosive
18 devices, and by other means.
19 The task of the check-point was to prevent the transfer of stolen
20 vehicles without number plates or with stolen number plates, et cetera.
21 Also, in my opinion, it was important, and an example for this was the
22 Mejdan Police Station where the majority of the inhabitants were
23 Bosniaks, it was important to prevent the arrival of armed individuals
24 wearing different uniforms, opening fire at various buildings, throwing
25 explosive devices in certain houses, and so on and so forth.
Page 24455
1 So the check-points had a very important role. So it was
2 impossible for armed individuals to go around, to exercise their criminal
3 behaviour, or even endanger human lives. Also, various goods were being
4 smuggled through the town, and it was also one of the tasks of the
5 check-points to prevent that; for instance, trafficking of foods.
6 Q. Thank you for your exhaustive explanation.
7 You said that some individuals were prevented from entering the
8 town or some of the settlements and to display -- and from displaying
9 their criminal behaviour and endangering human lives.
10 I think that you said that it wasn't possible to prevent it
11 100 per cent but that it was prevented to a large degree. Was that what
12 you said?
13 A. Yes, yes. Of course, somebody will always be able to pass
14 through. However, there was a positive reception among the population,
15 among the citizens, and it gave them a certain dose of security.
16 Q. Thank you. Sir, when I asked you about Check-Point 91, which was
17 the action carried out by the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina MUP, do you remember whether the check-points were
19 established for the first time sometime in the fall of 1991?
20 A. I think that was the first time.
21 Q. Thank you. The authority vested in the members of the Ministry
22 of Interior manning the check-points and the official steps that they
23 were undertaking at the check-points, was it all envisaged by the Law on
24 the Internal Affairs?
25 A. All actions undertaken by the policemen at check-points were in
Page 24456
1 accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs, or, in other words, they
2 were actions undertaken in relation to non-uniformed individuals; that
3 is, civilians. Ordinary citizens.
4 Q. Let us clarify this.
5 Was one of the actions undertaken checking of identity,
6 establishing of someone's identity? Was another of the actions, for
7 instance, checking the vehicles, the trunks of the vehicles, checking the
8 documents? Are those the actions that you claim were in accordance with
9 the Law on Internal Affairs?
10 A. Exactly. They are the actions stipulated by the Law on
11 Internal Affairs.
12 Q. One more question on this subject.
13 Were you aware, did you have any information, or are you aware of
14 any instructions in relation to this, that at the check-points citizens
15 would be treated differently depending on their ethnicity? Do you know
16 if anything like that happened?
17 A. I don't know that. But I'm certain that once the ID papers would
18 have been checked, nobody would have been accorded a different treatment
19 depending on their ethnicity. All the official actions undertaken at the
20 check-points were strictly in accordance with the Law on
21 Internal Affairs, bylaws. And all the citizens were treated in the same
22 way.
23 Q. Thank you very much. These were all my questions.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis.
Page 24457
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Cross examination by Mr. Hannis:
3 Q. Just to follow up on that last question from Mr. Zecevic,
4 Witness.
5 You personally were never involved at working at any of those
6 check-points that were set up as part of Operation Check-Point; is that
7 right?
8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did not.
9 Q. Okay. So you cannot know of your own personal knowledge whether
10 or not some individuals may have been mistreated or treated differently
11 because of their ethnicity; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. HANNIS: I think I need to go into private session for my
15 next series of questions, if I may.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 [Private session]
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6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
8 you.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we - thanks - we go into closed session so the
12 witness can take the stand.
13 [Closed session]
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
25 you.
Page 24476
1 MR. HANNIS:
2 Q. Witness, if you can help me with the correct terminology. Within
3 the Banja Luka CSB there are various units like the -- the police
4 department or police affairs, crime prevention and crime detection. What
5 were they called within the CSB? Are they administrations, or sectors,
6 or departments? What's the correct term I should use when I'm talking
7 about those?
8 A. The right word to use is department, or sector.
9 So police sector, crime police sector, department. Those same
10 terms are still used today.
11 Q. Thank you. You named several of them when you were talking to
12 Mr. Aleksic. But there were a couple that -- that you may have
13 overlooked. I want to confirm whether or not these were departments or
14 sectors in the Banja Luka CSB in 1992.
15 I take it there was an analysis and information section, or
16 sector, or department?
17 A. There's a department. And then within the department, one level
18 lower, is another department. Or you can have sector and then
19 department, and then the people who work on the execution of orders.
20 Today's terminology, you have police sector. We even have
21 numerical codes for all of them. So police sector is 01; crime police
22 sector is 02; communications department is 03; personnel and
23 legal affairs department, 04; financial department, 05. Then there are
24 following departments: Fire prevention department; and, of course, there
25 is the office of the chief.
Page 24477
1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions, because I've seen
2 those numerical designators for the different departments or sectors or,
3 I think, as they were called at the headquarters level of the RS MUP,
4 administrations. And typically, I think, 01 is the police
5 administration, police affairs and tasks; 2 is crime prevention and crime
6 detection; 3, at least on one of the charts I saw, was for the fire and
7 explosives; and communications was 4.
8 Is that not consistent with your memory?
9 A. That's how things are today. However, at the time, in 1992, we
10 did not have all the departments, and I think -- no, I don't think, I
11 know there were not administrations at the Banja Luka CSB. It's not an
12 administration. It's a department. Police department, crime prevention
13 and detection department, section for foreigners, financial department,
14 personnel and legal affairs department, and so on and so forth.
15 Q. No, I agree. When I mentioned "administrations," that's the term
16 I've seen used in talking about those various units at the headquarters
17 level but not at the CSB level. Do you understand?
18 A. Precisely.
19 Q. Was there also in Banja Luka CSB -- I guess you mentioned
20 financial. Materiel and financial. Was that one department?
21 A. There was a department in charge of materiel affairs in the
22 Security Services Centre.
23 It was a group of people. Whether they were a department, I
24 wouldn't know, but they were also in charge of technical matters, such as
25 maintenance of vehicles, procurement of spare parts for vehicles,
Page 24478
1 maintaining of hygiene.
2 Q. The chiefs or the heads of these departments that we've been
3 talking about, were they part of the -- of Chief Zupljanin's collegium in
4 the CSB Banja Luka in 1992? Were those the people who would be part of
5 what I've heard called the collegium?
6 A. You know what? We call it, in inverted commas, non-productive
7 departments. While the operative departments are the police department
8 and crime prevention and detection department. All other organisational
9 units, be it foreigners, materiel and finance, legal and personnel,
10 technical services, they have their chiefs but they are not authorised
11 persons. They do not have the authority. They do not have shortened
12 working years.
13 Did they attend the collegiums? No, they did not. But whenever
14 a need would arise, they would come later on to discuss a problem at
15 hand, whether it would be purchase of spare parts for vehicles or for
16 communication equipment or procurement of telex machines. And then they
17 would talk to the chief of the centre or a person authorised by him but
18 strictly about those problems.
19 Q. If I understand you correctly, are you saying what you referred
20 to as the "non-productive departments," those are the people in the
21 police who are not authorised officials? Does that mean people who --
22 they don't carry a gun, they don't have the power to make arrests,
23 et cetera; right?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Thank you. And within the 01, the police administration, police
Page 24479
1 affairs and tasks, was the duty operations team part of that department
2 in the Banja Luka CSB in 1992?
3 A. I did not understand the question.
4 Q. In terms of the organisational structure in Banja Luka CSB in
5 1992, was the duty operations team under the police department, or
6 sector, 01?
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12 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
13 MR. HANNIS:
14 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. I had to stop you there. We're in open
15 session and ...
16 JUDGE HALL: The --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm sorry.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
20 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we -- we would redact the relevant lines.
21 There's -- apparently there's no correspondence between the lines as I
22 read and on the other screens.
23 But should we continue -- should we revert into private session
24 to deal with this, or is the -- to continue your question, or ...
25 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, I think we need to just so that I can get an
Page 24480
1 answer on the record.
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we go into private session.
3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
4 [Private session]
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22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
24 you.
25 MR. HANNIS:
Page 24482
1 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you some general questions, if you know
2 the answer, about the number of certain personnel in CSB and
3 SJB Banja Luka in 1992.
4 First of all, can you tell me in April/May of 1992 how many
5 employees were there in the CSB Banja Luka? First of all, total number,
6 counting both uniformed and operatives and the non-productive
7 departments.
8 A. In the CSB, there were about 150 employees, of whom uniformed
9 police, i.e., those wearing uniforms, were 12 to 13. In the
10 white-collar crime prevention and detection, there were approximately
11 40, 45 [Realtime transcript read in error "four to 45"] employees who
12 were authorised officials and who worked as plain-clothes officers.
13 Q. Let me clarify: The transcript has recorded "approximately four
14 to 45." Is that what you said, or ...
15 Did you say "four to five" or "four to 45"?
16 A. 40 to 45.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis.
19 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HALL: Might I interrupt you briefly.
21 Mr. Aleksic, we have been alerted that there's a matter that you
22 wish to raise. A, do you still wish to raise it; and, B, how much time
23 do you think you would need?
24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Five minutes at
25 the end. And we're almost there. I believe that the matter is very
Page 24483
1 important and that the Trial Chamber should know about it.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
3 Mr. Hannis, Mr. Aleksic says five minutes, but my experience is
4 that you probably better allow for ten.
5 MR. HANNIS: Okay, Your Honour. That will be fine. I will stop
6 in about five more minutes.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thanks.
8 MR. HANNIS:
9 Q. And, Witness, what about the SJB of Banja Luka? Can you tell us
10 approximately the total number in April/May 1992, uniform, operatives,
11 and others?
12 A. As for the Banja Luka SJB, there were about 300 authorised
13 officials working there at the time.
14 Q. Can you give me a breakdown, in terms of authorised officials,
15 the number of uniformed police officers versus operatives, detectives?
16 A. There were perhaps 150 to 200 uniformed police officers. It is
17 very difficult for me to talk about figures after such a long time.
18 However, the total number of authorised officials was about 300, 200,
19 250, 300.
20 Q. And how about the non-authorised. Do you have any idea of the
21 number in the SJB Banja Luka in April/May 1992?
22 A. The Banja Luka SJB, now that we're talking about it, had the
23 so-called non-productive units that belonged to the CSB, which means that
24 the Banja Luka SJB had approximately 20 to 30 men. Believe me, I --
25 it's -- it's a very tall order to remember exactly how many there were.
Page 24484
1 Q. That's fine. Did the numbers for both the CSB and the SJB
2 increase later in 1992? Were additional authorised officials hired, or
3 reserve policemen brought on board? I'm assuming that's what happened,
4 but you tell me.
5 Did the numbers go up for both the CSB and the SJB later in 1992?
6 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, we know very well, based on my testimony so
7 far, that the solemn declaration was signed, so some of the officials,
8 some of the employees, did not sign that solemn declaration.
9 I wouldn't be able to tell you how many employees in numerical
10 terms abandoned the service and abandoned the CSB. However, whether new
11 people were hired, I really don't know. I only know that in all the
12 reports that I can remember and of which I can speak from memory,
13 Chief Zupljanin always emphasised the fact that the CSB had very few
14 police officers, that -- that there were a lot of vacancies which had not
15 been filled up, according to the organisational scheme of the CSB.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you.
17 MR. HANNIS: And I'll stop for today.
18 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So, Mr. Witness, we have reached a point where
19 we're about to take the adjournment for today, so we would go into closed
20 session so that you may be escorted from the courtroom.
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4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
5 you.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, just for the record,
8 before I forget, for the record, that Mr. Cvijetic has joined the
9 Stanisic Defence. Thank you.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Aleksic.
11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 I know that this is not a simple technical procedure, but we have
13 to move into private session. What I need to say needs to be said in
14 private session.
15 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... go into private
16 session.
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
21 you.
22 JUDGE HALL: Tomorrow morning at 9.00, this courtroom.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day
25 of September 2011, at 9.00 a.m.