110922ED

Page 24587

1 Did you know about that in 1992? Were you aware of that

2 incident?

3 A. I heard of the incident. I know that all the necessary measures

4 an actions were taken within the purview of the CSB. And as for the fact

5 that my colleagues set up a team consisting of inspectors, crime of scene

6 investigators, an investigating judge, and so on and so forth, I know

7 that, as far as I can remember, a report was submitted to the

8 prosecutor's office, charging an unknown perpetrator or a known

9 perpetrator, I don't know exactly what, but I remember this case, because

10 I heard of it.

11 Q. I want to ask you about, were you aware or did you hear about any

12 camps or detention facilities or reception centres where non-Serb

13 civilians, Muslims and Croats, were detained in May, June, July,

14 August of 1992 in the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina? For

15 example, did you know of the existence of Omarska, or Keraterm, or

16 Trnopolje, or Manjaca? Did you know about those in 1992?

17 A. Well, I knew, I heard, and I knew that in one part of the

18 territory, in the area called Manjaca, there was a camp. I knew that. I

19 know that that was a camp for POWs.

20 I also heard that in Prijedor there was a reception centre for

21 citizens, i.e., for those people who had fled from war-struck areas.

22 I also heard that in Omarska, there was something like an

23 investigation centre, if I can put it that way, and that people were

24 taken there after having been taken prisoners, usually combatants who had

25 been captured in combat. That's what I know.

Page 24588

1 Q. Let me ask you about this. Did you know about Mr. Zupljanin

2 going to Belgrade and attending a meeting on the 11th of July, 1992,

3 where Minister Stanisic and all the collegium of the RS MUP and most of

4 the CSB chiefs were in attendance? Did you know about that meeting?

5 A. I didn't know about that meeting.

6 Q. Let me tell you, at that time meeting, Mr. Zupljanin was recorded

7 as saying that:

8 "The army and Crisis Staffs are requesting that as many Muslims

9 as possible are gathered, and they are leaving these undefined camps up

10 to the internal affairs organs. Conditions in these camps are bad."

11 Were you aware, did you not hear it around the CSB Banja Luka

12 about these camps and -- and police complaints about being left with the

13 job of guarding people kept in these camps in 1992?

14 A. I heard, that is to say, I received information, or I read

15 somewhere. And as I've told you, those were not camps. I've already

16 stated that a prisoner of war camp was at Manjaca. There was a reception

17 centre as well, but I never heard of any camps, I repeat.

18 I also heard that some public security stations or police

19 stations sent their employees to guard those collection or reception

20 centres; not camps, mind you.

21 And as far as I can remember, the local politics got involved and

22 the local Crisis Staffs got involved in all that. They had the main say

23 in all that, and they dictated some public security stations and their

24 chiefs. In doing that, they circumvented the decision of the minister,

25 pursuant to which police officers were -- could not be used for those

Page 24589

1 purposes. They were supposed to do only their regular policing tasks,

2 aimed at preserving peace and order in their respective territories.

3 Q. Well, Witness, first of all, the term I used in my question was

4 "undefined camps." Those are Mr. Zupljanin's words, according to the

5 minutes of that meeting, not mine. But you are aware that police were

6 guarding people detained in those various facilities, whatever name we

7 use; right? That was a problem that the police complained about;

8 correct?

9 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I heard, believe me, if I knew

10 that employees of one police station went there, or if I went there, I

11 would tell you. I read somewhere that in certain cases and in certain

12 police stations, police officers were also used for those purposes.

13 Although those were not their regular tasks stipulated by the law.

14 Q. But you personally never went to any of those facilities in 1992;

15 right?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Well, let me ask you about some things that you mentioned on

18 Tuesday when you testified.

19 Regarding the curfew, you were asked about the purpose of

20 introducing the curfew in accordance with the decision of the Secretariat

21 for National Defence. And at page 24.432, you said that it was

22 introduced "to prevent movement during the night, movement of people

23 armed with long barrels in all sorts of uniforms.

24 "In short, in order to ensure the security of the citizens."

25 Now, you've already told us that these groups were a problem and

Page 24590

1 the police really couldn't deal with them. My question is, it doesn't

2 sound like these guys were the sort of people who were simply going to go

3 home at 2200 hours at night because the Secretariat of National Defence

4 had issued a curfew; right?

5 You understand my question?

6 A. I did.

7 You see, restricting the movement of such individuals wearing

8 different kinds of uniform and insignia who had to do with stolen

9 vehicles and sported arms was still not a guarantee that they wouldn't

10 move about. Installing the curfew from 10.00 p.m. till 5.00 a.m. did not

11 even stop ordinary citizens from moving about.

12 However, one of the measures introduced to increase the safety

13 and security of citizens and in an attempt to secure a peaceful way of

14 life was particularly that. And, in my view, it was a positive decision.

15 Q. Do you know of examples of the police arresting any of these men

16 carrying long barrels and roaming after the curfew, firing their weapons

17 and exploding their explosive devices?

18 A. Well, look, Mr. Prosecutor, it's been a while. I can't say I

19 know of such examples.

20 In any case, the purpose of establishing check-points which

21 comprised the employees of the police and members of the military police

22 was to try to tackle the issue of movement of different people in

23 different uniform, insignia, with weapons, and I can tell you that such

24 people were prosecuted, especially if they moved about in groups, in

25 uniform, with long weapons. I can pretty much guarantee that the

Page 24591

1 military police applied measures against such people.

2 Q. But not all these groups were members of the military; right?

3 Weren't some of them non-military, and, thus, should be arrested by

4 civilian police?

5 A. Basically, yes. However, at the time, I can say that these

6 criminals, in inverted commas, who had been known to the police before

7 the war, all wore uniforms. One could get a hold of a uniform in any

8 number of ways. You could buy it. You could have someone make it for

9 you. And if there were such groups of five or six men in uniform with

10 weapons, the police were unable to stand up to them. They weren't

11 trained or equipped to do that. Those people fired at members of the

12 police. They threw explosive devices into courtyards. And, in that

13 regard, the military police was of great assistance. They had

14 professionals who knew their job well. They were simply equipped well

15 enough, in my view.

16 Q. Okay. Let me show you now another exhibit. This is tab 83 in

17 the Prosecution binder; Exhibit P624.

18 And with the usher's assistance, I'll hand you a copy. And I

19 have some little sticky tabs on there to help you find the paragraphs I

20 want to ask you about.

21 I will tell you that this is a report from CSB Banja Luka on the

22 work done by the CSB from 4 April until 31 December 1992.

23 Have you ever seen that document before?

24 A. I really can't say. I may have. And, yet, I may have not.

25 Q. If we could go to the second page in English. Witness, so have

Page 24592

1 you it, that there's a footnote at the bottom at page 2 in the B/C/S as

2 well.

3 Footnote number 1 says:

4 "From 4 April until 31 December 1992, a total of 467 employees

5 left the centre (304 ... did not sign the solemn declaration) ..."

6 Does that number sound about right, or do you know?

7 A. Believe me when I tell you that this is the first time I see such

8 numbers.

9 Q. I understand that. But, from your own personal knowledge of

10 people who didn't sign and left, do you have any reason to disagree with

11 this number that's in the report?

12 A. As for the figure, I can neither agree or disagree with it. I do

13 know, though, that a number of employees left the CSB following the

14 deadline or on top of the deadline that was prescribed. I don't know how

15 many left, though, and for what reasons.

16 Q. I understand. I'd like to go next to -- it's page 7 in the

17 English, and it's page 11 -- it should be the next sticky tab for you.

18 And, actually, I think that's a page that's copied ... okay.

19 It may be on the back side of that page. Can you turn your

20 right-hand page over. Yes. And it's upside down.

21 A. No problem.

22 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and in the e-court, the ERN for the B/C/S is

23 B0098130.

24 Q. At the bottom of that page, the paragraph I'm reading is:

25 "Most members of the public saw the activity of criminal groups

Page 24593

1 and individuals as a sign of anarchy and lawlessness which seriously

2 undermined the reputation of government organs and created distrust in

3 them, especially because the criminals used uniformed and state symbols

4 while committing crimes. Because of the fact that they were numerous,

5 widespread, well organised, and well armed, and that in some cases they

6 even seemed untouchable and to have a sort of aura of immunity on account

7 of their war merits, since some of them fought in the war, the security

8 services are in a very delicate position and have little room for

9 ensuring efficient protection of the security and property of citizens."

10 First of all, as a general proposition would you agree with that

11 as an accurate description of the situation for at least part of the

12 time, between April 1992 and the end of December 1992?

13 A. I believe I said already that there were individuals and groups

14 in uniform with insignia and weapons who were experienced fighters, and

15 they were a threat to the security and safety of citizens in Banja Luka.

16 One of the tasks of the check-points that were established was to

17 try and tackle the issue of movement of such individuals and groups.

18 Q. Let me stop you there.

19 I understand that. But from this reading, would you agree with

20 me that at least one of the groups that's being described here sounds

21 like some of the personnel from the special police detachment in

22 Banja Luka? You remember yesterday we looked at a lot of documents with

23 complaints about the activities of Mr. Gojevic [sic] and Mr. Makivic and

24 some of the other members of the special police detachment, of whom you

25 told me some were military personnel. Doesn't this accurately describe

Page 24594

1 them and what they were doing? They seemed "untouchable"?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. If you can go to your next tab. In English, it's page 14.

4 Your page number, I think, should be page 24.

5 A. [In English] Yes.

6 Q. And in e-court, the B/C/S is B/C/S page 25.

7 Near the bottom of the page in English, the last part of the

8 paragraph that I marked for you:

9 "Members of services are often also exposed to pressure from

10 various informal centres of power and to interference with their work and

11 they are often blackmailed by paramilitary formations and armed groups."

12 First of all, would agree with that statement?

13 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

14 Q. And do you know by name or description any of those paramilitary

15 formations and armed groups that were blackmailing members of police; and

16 if so, in what way were they blackmailing them?

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I wouldn't use the word "blackmail."

18 Such armed groups and individuals, as I said, were well trained,

19 well armed, in different kinds of uniform. They didn't blackmail members

20 of the police. We wouldn't have anyone blackmail us.

21 But --

22 Q. Well, let me -- let me stop you there. "Blackmail" is the word

23 that was used in the report. And after I read it out to you and asked

24 you if you agreed, you said you did. But now you're telling me you don't

25 agree, at least with the word "blackmail"; right?

Page 24595

1 A. Well, it's a play of words. Sometimes we say "blackmail."

2 It's a word. In my view, no one held any hostage looking for

3 certain -- a certain gain. Throughout my testimony, I believe, you could

4 get an idea of us insisting on the fact that we had inadequate number of

5 policemen, inadequate equipment, and all that resulted in us being unable

6 to stand up to such armed individuals and groups. That is why the

7 military police came in, because they could deal with them. As for us,

8 the employees of the police being blackmailed by anyone, well, no way.

9 Since they were thugs and in uniform, we contacted the military

10 police. It's not that the civilian policemen were afraid of them, but we

11 were simply not trained to fire at people, to enter a clash with an armed

12 group. That is why we relied on the bodies of the military and the

13 military police who could adequately respond.

14 Q. Witness, isn't it true that some of the thugs in uniform in

15 Banja Luka in 1992 were members of the special police detachment ; right?

16 A. I don't know that. The specials - I call them the specials - as

17 far as I know, some of them may have been. As I have said already, they

18 were even members of the State Security Service, such as Mr. Samardzija,

19 Mr. Ecim was there, there were reservists, and there may have been such

20 individuals as well who had infiltrated the specials.

21 Q. Well, they were on the payroll. So it is something different

22 than infiltration; right?

23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I take note of what you say, but I said that the

24 list of the members of the specials that was shown to me was something I

25 was not familiar with. I said I knew some people, some colleagues from

Page 24596

1 the list, two or three.

2 Q. Okay.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness. Mr. Witness, could I just ask you

4 if you ever, with your own eyes, saw any of these uniformed thugs

5 operating at night-time after the curfew?

6 Did you ever see them by yourself?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to tell you the truth,

8 I worked in shifts. During the curfew, take my word for it, I didn't

9 move around town because of such people, of such individuals. I didn't

10 see them personally, but there were rumours going around town.

11 In any case, I didn't see them. I knew some of them since before

12 the war, certain people.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS:

15 Q. Okay. Witness, I think there's one last tab. If you could turn

16 to that.

17 MR. HANNIS: It's page 15 in the English, in e-court. Page 27 in

18 the B/C/S in e-court.

19 Q. You find that last tab? Yeah. Thank you.

20 Okay. Reading from the bottom of page 15 in the English, there's

21 a big paragraph and the second sentence says:

22 "For instance, some active-duty and reserve police employees took

23 advantage of war time circumstances to engage in various criminal

24 activities, illegally confiscate citizens' property and belongings and

25 keep them for themselves."

Page 24597

1 Is that your knowledge or experience, is that accurate? Did you

2 know about that happening?

3 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I heard of such - what I should call

4 them? - occurrences, including some authorised officials, members of the

5 police.

6 The chief of the CSB, prior to that period and during that time,

7 kept asking of the various members of the CSB to be professional in their

8 conduct and to be fair. People could -- couldn't even dream of engaging

9 in such activities. We had disciplinary courts in place for such

10 situations. We had our presidents and members of such disciplinary

11 commissions who dealt with such cases. In each and every case, when we

12 heard or where there were indicia of such conduct, such people were

13 processed. Such disciplinary presidents and members of commissions were

14 impartial. They didn't care who was involved. They only cared if there

15 was criminal conduct of people in uniform.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. I understand you wanted to tell me that. I have to ask you to

23 keep your answers short. I think I'm near the end of my half-hour.

24 MR. HANNIS: If I can just finish this document and then one

25 topic, if I could have ten more minutes, Your Honours.

Page 24598

1 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you very much.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I do understand. Sorry.

4 MR. HANNIS:

5 Q. No problem. All right. Reading on in that paragraph, two

6 sentences further down, it says:

7 "Also, members of various armed groups sometimes inspected

8 authorised officials, that is, police employees, while they were on duty,

9 searched police vehicles and maltreated them in other ways. However,

10 calculating and following the line of least resistance, police employees

11 often responded to such incidents and their perpetrators passively,

12 allowing them to maltreat and humiliate them, which undermined their

13 reputation and that of their service."

14 MR. HANNIS: Next page in English in e-court.

15 Q. "Certain duties envisioned by the law were not carried out

16 because of fear and apprehension and in some cases because of involvement

17 in various criminal affairs, and there were attempts to shift

18 responsibility to others and even to the centre."

19 Would you agree with that assessment of the situation in

20 Banja Luka in April through December of 1992? Yes or no.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And understandable as that is, would you agree with me that that

23 passivity in the face of dealing with some of those armed groups and

24 individuals runs contrary to the solemn declaration under Article 41,

25 where the sworn police officers say that they will "carry out these and

Page 24599

1 other activities and tasks of an authorised official even when the

2 execution of such activities and tasks places my life in danger."

3 Right?

4 A. Yes. That is precisely why we processed such cases.

5 Q. I understand. The last thing I want to ask you, the last topic

6 in five minutes, if I may.

7 Were you aware that, before you came to testify, that my office,

8 the Office of the Prosecutor, had requested to interview you before you

9 came to testify?

10 Were you informed about our request to do that?

11 A. I don't understand you. I don't understand the question.

12 Q. When the Prosecutor, when our office learned that you were going

13 to be called as a witness in this case, we asked Defence counsel to

14 inform you that we would like to speak with you outside of court before

15 you came in to testify. Either weeks before or the day before you got

16 here. Were you aware of that request?

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 24604

1 period mentioned here.

2 Q. It means that it contains information collected from the public

3 security stations within the Security Services Centre for the relevant

4 period.

5 A. Correct. Information collected from public security stations for

6 the relevant period.

7 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to some topics mentioned during the

8 previous days that ought to be clarified.

9 The day before yesterday, on page 24.456, in answer to a question

10 from my colleague Mr. Zecevic related to the police check-points, you

11 stated that you had no information that there was some sort of

12 instruction that people should be treated differently on the

13 check-points, depending on their ethnicity. You also stated that you had

14 no knowledge that things like that happened in practice. You said that,

15 as far as you knew, all citizens were treated in exactly the same way.

16 Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Immediately after that, my learned friend from the Prosecution,

19 at the very beginning of his cross-examination, asked you about the same

20 thing. And on the following page, 24.457, he suggested that you

21 personally never worked at any of the police check-points and therefore

22 have no personal knowledge about whether anybody was mistreated or

23 treated in a different way because of their ethnicity. And you agreed

24 with that statement. And I agree with the fact that you never worked at

25 any of the police check-points.

Page 24605

1 You remember that that's what you stated?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Earlier on, I asked you whether the police station Centar,

4 Budzak, and Mejdan had their duty operations services, and you answered

5 in the affirmative.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It's on page 24.402.

8 So bearing in mind everything that I just said, I want to ask you

9 the following: Bearing in mind where you worked, have you ever received

10 any report from duty operations officer in Centar, Budzak or Mejdan that

11 some citizens were mistreated at check-points or that they were treated

12 differently solely on the basis of their ethnicity?

13 A. No. It's impossible that the employees of the police would have

14 mistreated people of a different ethnicity. And I have to emphasise that

15 we erected the check-points precisely to ensure the safety and security

16 of citizens of all ethnicities. We always requested all the employees to

17 act in a professional manner towards everyone and to treat everyone in

18 the same way.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] In relation to this topic, I would

21 like to see on the monitors, P470. It's a newspaper article from "Glas."

22 Q. I think you were shown the document yesterday, or the day before

23 yesterday, by Mr. Prosecutor.

24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in?

25 The middle column, the lower part of the middle column.

Page 24606

1 Q. My learned friend Mr. Hannis read this passage until the words

2 "this request was not accepted."

3 And now I want to read the rest of the paragraph and then ask you

4 a question.

5 "This request was rejected but it was agreed that a discussion

6 would be held tomorrow in the Banja Luka CSB with representatives of the

7 SDA and that solutions would be found for ethnically balanced police

8 patrols to work on security tasks."

9 Can we have the remainder. Thank you.

10 "It was also agreed that particular attention should be devoted

11 to the protection of religious buildings."

12 Now, in relation to what I just read out, I would like to ask you

13 the following: Do you know anything about this; and can you comment on

14 it?

15 A. You see, Mr. Aleksic, throughout my testimony, I repeated that

16 the chief constantly requested that all citizens be treated equally,

17 regardless of their ethnicity. The text that you just read out

18 "ethnically balanced patrols and check-points" means that they were

19 supposed to contain different ethnicities: Serbs, Bosniaks, and Croats.

20 You have to bear in mind that in the territory of the police

21 station in Mejdan, there are two neighbourhoods: Vrbanja and Debeljaci.

22 The majority population there are Bosniaks. Our patrols and check-points

23 were of mixed ethnicity in such areas. Our patrols were of mixed

24 ethnicity in order to ensure the protection and safety of all citizens,

25 not just citizens of one or the other ethnicity.

Page 24607

1 Excuse me, I just saw that the protection of religious buildings

2 is mentioned here in the text. You especially have to bear in mind that

3 such territories contain religious facilities, and that was the focus of

4 the work of our service.

5 Q. Thank you. Let us move to another topic.

6 During my examination and during the cross-examination, you were

7 asked some questions about the number of people who worked in the crime

8 prevention department of the Banja Luka CSB. Page 24.383.

9 Are you okay? Are we supposed to continue?

10 A. Yes, yes, I'm maybe a bit excited and somewhat emotional. Your

11 know, that's the kind of person I am. So, some questions, sometimes --

12 no, everything is fine. Don't worry.

13 Q. Let me repeat, page 24.383 in the transcript, my question related

14 to the organisational structure of the Banja Luka CSB. And you, among

15 other things, said that there was the crime prevention department, which

16 then contained sectors devoted to general crime and white-collar crime.

17 You also said that were 10 to 12 executive officers in that sector.

18 Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. A little while later on the same day, the Prosecutor asked you

21 about the same topic. Page 24.482. He asked you how many people were in

22 uniform, and you said: "There were 12 to 13 people wearing uniform

23 within the Banja Luka CSB."

24 And then the transcript contains your claim that the white-collar

25 crime sector contained 40 to 45 employees. Could you tell me, which of

Page 24623

1 communications department in Prijedor. Prijedor is one of our most

2 intensive crime base municipalities. He is the -- I think he's the only

3 communications witness we've had at the SJB level. We've had, you know,

4 at republic level and MUP headquarters and CSB level, but not at the SJB

5 level.

6 Also we have a number of communications log-books, probably more

7 from Prijedor than from any place else and I think I've identified about

8 140 documents that I would like to show him.

9 So I'm requesting Your Honours to consider allowing me to have

10 10 or 12 hours for cross-examination. And that certainly will affect the

11 planning and scheduling of how many witnesses the Defence calls and when

12 they call them.

13 If you would like something in writing for me to further

14 elaborate it, I can do that. But I did want to alert you as soon as

15 possible.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis, we have had much experience with

18 log-books in this trial, I should say. And so I wonder if there is any

19 way in which you can figure out to shorten your time that you need to

20 cross-examine the next witness.

21 MR. HANNIS: I can certainly try to do that --

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: To be honest, in some way to save us from having

23 to go through all the log-books once again --

24 MR. HANNIS: I will certainly try to do that, but part of the

25 reasons that I feel I need extra time is, from reading the 65 ter summary

Page 24624

1 for this witness, there's an indication that he will testify that the

2 chief in Prijedor, Mr. Drljaca, was acting in defiance of authority. He

3 refused to recognise and adhere to the authority of CSB Banja Luka. He

4 failed to provide daily reports and regular updates concerning events as

5 they unfolded in Prijedor and repeated requests.

6 So I think it is important for me to try to show that his

7 anticipated testimony seems to fly in the face of what I see in the

8 log-books and the documents incoming and outgoing from Prijedor, and so I

9 think it will reflect heavily on his credibility and that's another

10 reason why I think I may need more time.

11 Now if he doesn't testify in that fashion and it is more

12 consistent with what I see in the documents, then certainly I would need

13 less time and not waste your time. But that's how it appears to me at

14 this juncture and that's why I'm making the request.

15 And the other thing, I'm sorry, as a general matter, Your Honour,

16 for us, we do not get statements from the Defence of the witnesses. So

17 as with this witness, I had to ask him some questions that I didn't know

18 the answer to which is contrary to the Ten Commandments of

19 cross-examination for lawyers, but if I'd had a chance to interview him

20 before or had a fuller statement, I would know, for example, that the

21 last witness's answers to some questions were things that I didn't need

22 to ask about. But not knowing them, I have to at least explore for the

23 possibility, and that's another reason why it takes some extra time with

24 these witnesses where we're working in the dark and I have a one-page

25 summary and 65 ter instead of a prior testimony or a 20-page witness

Page 24625

1 statement.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honours, when it

3 comes to the extension of time for cross-examination, I will leave it in

4 the Judges' hands to decide.

5 However, we have already heard the testimony of the chief of the

6 communications centre in Kotor Varos. He was a Prosecution witness who

7 testified about this area. As for the other part, and that is they don't

8 know what the witness is going to testify about, I have to say that he

9 has already testified twice at this Tribunal. The Prosecution has his

10 testimony and he has also provided a statement to the Prosecutor. And

11 they have that as well.

12 So it is very clear what the witness is going to testify about.

13 In any case, I would like to avoid, and I didn't object when

14 Ms. Korner examined the witnesses, but I wanted to object to the

15 witness's being exhausted by a very wide examination. The way in which

16 Ms. Korner examined the witnesses left them exhausted and confused, and I

17 am not saying that the Prosecutor does not have the right to test their

18 thesis but I would plead with them to do it in a reasonable way.

19 JUDGE HALL: Some critics of the common law system would say that

20 the purpose of cross-examination is to exhaust and confuse the witness.

21 But be that as it may, may we approach the matter this way:

22 Mr. Hannis having alerted us to what his problems are likely to be and we

23 know that when -- in two weeks' time when we reconvene, and he sees how

24 it develops -- how the evidence develops, and he knows -- he -- he has

25 already been alerted to the reservations of the Bench in trawling through

Page 24626

1 log-books unnecessarily, that he would -- we would treat the applications

2 as being live before us and he would be in a position to refine it in

3 terms of time, the -- certainly by the time the witness's

4 examination-in-chief has ended.

5 So could we leave it at that.

6 MR. HANNIS: I can live with that, Your Honour. You've been fair

7 with me in the past when I have needed or requested more time. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE HALL: And as Judge Delvoie has just reminded me, that

10 approach may have an impact on witness planning for you. But, again,

11 the -- the question of a day, I suppose.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE HALL: But we would see.

14 Are there any other matters?

15 Before we adjourn, it is been brought to our attention that today

16 is the last day that the -- we would see in court in that capacity the

17 Prosecution's faithful Case Manager, whereas, in the adversarial system

18 that we -- whereas it is an adversarial system that we follow,

19 nevertheless, the system only works if there's a measure of cooperation

20 by all parties involved and, therefore, though he has been the Case

21 Manager for the Prosecution, to the extent that he does his work well, it

22 benefits not only the Prosecution but the Chamber and everybody as well.

23 So we certainly wish him all the best in the -- his new service to the

24 Tribunal, and we thank him for such assistance as his work for the

25 Prosecution has afforded all of us. Thank you.

Page 24627

1 So we reconvene on the 10th of October.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th of October,

4 2011