1 Friday, 7 October 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused Zupljanin not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
11 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution,
12 I'm Tom Hannis and I'd like to introduce to you to our new Case Manager
13 who will be with us from here on out, I hope,
14 Mr. Sebastiaan van Hooydonk.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you very much. And welcome.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
17 Ms. Deirdre Montgomery, and Ms. Annemarie McNulty, appearing for Stanisic
18 Defence this morning. Thank you.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
20 Miroslav Cuskic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
21 Our client is not present. He already signed a waiver.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 If there are no preliminary matters, may we go into closed
24 session so the witness can be escorted to the stand.
25 [Closed session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HALL: Good morning, sir. Would you please make the solemn
10 declaration on the card that the usher would -- now hands to you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would, first of all,
15 welcome you to the Tribunal and thank you for coming to assist by giving
17 The solemn declaration that you have just taken imposes upon you
18 an obligation to give truthful testimony and this Tribunal is empowered
19 to, by its Statute to impose penalties on persons who give false or
20 misleading testimony.
21 You have been called by counsel representing Mr. Zupljanin, who
22 is not here today, and the procedure of the Tribunal, in common with
23 courts elsewhere, is that the side calling you will begin. Then, counsel
24 for the co-accused would have an opportunity to cross-examine you,
25 followed by cross-examination from the counsel on your right,
1 representing the Prosecution.
2 We expect that your testimony will be completed within the
3 compass of today, and the day's sitting is broken up into sessions of no
4 longer than 90 minutes for technical reason, having to do with the system
5 that records these proceedings.
6 The 20-minute break between the sessions allows the convenience
7 of yourself and counsel and everybody else; but, if for any other reason
8 you feel a need to take a break before the time that we would ordinarily
9 rise, you -- if you would indicate that, we would certainly accommodate
11 Now, ordinarily, a day's sitting ends at 1.45, because usually
12 the courtroom has to be vacated so that another trial can take its place.
13 But today in order to complete your testimony, we will have an extended
14 sitting. So, therefore, when we rise at 1.45 ...
15 If I might have a moment, please.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE HALL: So resuming, the -- we will take -- we will rise at
18 1.40. And after a 20-minute break, resume at 2.00, and complete for the
19 day at 3.00.
20 So with that, I would invite Mr. Krgovic, who represents
21 Mr. Zupljanin, to begin.
22 WITNESS: SZ-023
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examination by Mr. Krgovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
1 A. Good morning.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to take this
3 document and show it to the witness.
4 Q. Could you tell us, sir, if you see your first and last names on
5 this document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Please sign the document.
8 A. All right.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: Can we have exhibit number for this document,
10 please, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL: That's admitted and marked under seal.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D153, Your Honours, under seal.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, can we go to the private session for
14 the purpose of my line of questions.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes. We would move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 24632-24636 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In paragraph 2 of your statement, you mention official trips to
7 Sarajevo and other towns in Bosnia and Herzegovina on which you went
8 together with Mr. Zupljanin.
9 Can you tell us when did these trips take place? Which period
10 does this relate to?
11 A. This mostly relates to the period before the war, mostly 1991 and
12 even the first quarter of 1992. I had been working in MUP for 20 years,
13 and when we went officially to Sarajevo, one vehicle was used, and
14 whoever from the MUP of the Republic of B and H needed to go we all would
15 go in one vehicle, so it often happened that we travelled together,
16 Mr. Zupljanin and myself. Even later on when Mr. Zupljanin became the
17 chief, he would travel in the same car with others.
18 We also visited the municipal SUPs such as Gradiska, Srbac,
19 Prijedor and Jajce. That was before the war and in early 1992.
20 Q. In paragraph 1 of your statement in the last sentence you also
21 mention that you attended professional collegiums.
22 Can you please explain to us what you mean by the professional
23 collegiums and what sort of contacts you had?
24 A. Well, the chief of the CSB would call the leaders and chiefs of
25 all sectors, the chiefs of departments and the chiefs of sections.
1 Occasionally these were the meetings of the core staff and sometimes all
2 section chiefs would attend.
3 When I say that they were professional collegiums, I mean that
4 the problems discussed were the police issues, the uniformed police, the
5 crime prevention service, the technical services, such as the
6 communications department, and so on. All issues were resolved in these
8 Q. You mentioned the core staff, in terms of the collegium. Did you
9 mean the staff from the centre itself or were there people from outside
10 the centre who came to the core collegium staff meetings that you
12 A. The core collegium staff meeting were held practically every day.
13 That was just at the centre for the chiefs of departments and possibly
14 chiefs of sections. Representatives of municipal secretariats of the
15 interior from the field did not come to attend these meetings. And these
16 meetings were held on a daily basis.
17 Q. And those that were attended by sector chiefs, can you explain to
18 us what they were?
19 A. You mean chiefs from other SUPs?
20 Q. I mean chiefs of departments and chiefs of sectors, as you
22 A. Oh, you mean in the CSB.
23 Well, the issues that were resolved there were the current daily
24 issues; if we needed to get a car, or a radio station, or a teleprinter
25 machine. As for myself, the crime prevention service had its own
1 problems, the uniformed police had its own problems, and they would be
2 expressed immediately, and they would be resolved on the spot. The chief
3 issued orders about what was to be done, and he had the final word.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you.
11 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we have no questions for this
13 witness. I notified Mr. Hannis that this might be, indeed, the case.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Just give me a minute to
16 get organised.
17 May I confirm? Are we still in private session.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]
19 MR. HANNIS: Well, I think I should start by asking to go into
20 private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 24640-24648 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 MR. HANNIS: And with the usher's help, I can hand the witness a
14 binder with hard copies of the documents I may be showing him.
15 Q. Witness, the first one I want you to have a look at is tab number
16 1. And I'll remind you, we're in open session now, so if my question is
17 something that you think the answer to would perhaps reveal your identity
18 in some way, then let us know and we'll go into private session.
19 This is a letter dated the 25th of July, 1991, from
20 Chief Zupljanin, to Mrs. Plavsic, Biljana Plavsic, in her position as
21 chair of the Council for the Protection of Constitutional Order.
22 And I want to ask you, first of all, about the second paragraph.
23 He says he is writing for what may at first glance to be a trivial reason
24 and he mentions being at a meeting on 22 July at the ministry and he
25 couldn't believe his eyes when he saw that a document that was presented
1 was on green paper. And wondered if this was a sign of dominance of
2 Muslims in the Ministry of Interior.
3 Do you see that? And just let me know once you've had a chance
4 to read that. I want to show you one other sentence, and then I'll have
5 a question.
6 A. I can see that.
7 Q. And the other thing I want you to look at is at the bottom of the
8 next paragraph, the last sentence says:
9 [As read] "We have information that a significant number of the
10 course students are Muslims from the Sandzak (around 80 per cent) which
11 should not have been allowed to happen under any circumstances, and nor
12 would we have wanted to accept them at this centre. This course should
13 [sic] have been checked?"
14 Now, to me reading that, that seems that Mr. Zupljanin did have a
15 problem with some Muslims at any rate. Would you agree?
16 A. I had never had an opportunity to be informed of these issues. I
17 had never seen these green -- I didn't know anything about it. After
18 all, I was in a technical service.
19 Q. I understand. Thank you.
20 MR. HANNIS: For the next document, I think I need to go into
21 private session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 24651-24653 redacted. Private session.
23 [Closed session]
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 24656-24659 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. The next document I would like to look
24 at it P432.19.
25 Q. Witness, you'll see this on your screen in a moment. Or you have
1 the hard copy. It's dated the 22nd of June, 1992. A decision of the
2 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, signed by
3 President Brdjanin. Item number one says:
4 [As read] "Only personnel of Serbian ethnicity may hold executive
5 posts, posts where the information flow is possible ..."
6 The second paragraph said: "This includes various groups,
7 including the Ministry of Interior."
8 And finally it says:
9 [As read] "... these posts may not be held by employees of
10 Serbian ethnicity who have not confirmed it in the plebescite or have not
11 yet accepted that the only representative of the Serbian people is the
12 Serbian Democratic Party."
13 Do you remember hearing about this in June 1992?
14 A. No, there was nobody to inform me of it.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Maybe the witness got the wrong document. So
16 please can you ...
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. Could you double-check? I was referring to
19 tab number 23. Can I see what page you're on? It's behind the number
20 23. That's it.
21 A. Yes, you're right. I apologise.
22 Q. No problem --
23 A. I was looking at the document before the tab marking.
24 Q. Understandable.
25 A. I didn't have the opportunity to either see this document or hear
10 Q. Okay. I'm looking at the list of employees we looked at before.
11 And Exhibit P2392 at tab 41, if you look at tab 41. I just wanted to
12 confirm the Ziad that are you talking about is that Ziad Hadziselimovic?
13 He is at number 83 in the document behind number 41.
14 A. Yes. Under 83.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, let me show you another document related to
16 this. It's tab 27, behind number 27 in your binder.
17 MR. HANNIS: This is Exhibit P577.
18 And you see this is -- you'll see this is a document dated the
19 1st of July, 1992 from Mr. Zupljanin and apparently sent to all the SJBs.
20 And basically he's forwarding that ARK Crisis Staff order of June 22 we
21 were just looking at.
22 And my question for you is on the second page of the document.
23 Below Mr. Brdjanin's name it says, and it appear to be this is the
24 message from Chief Zupljanin. It says:
25 [As read] "In the implementation of this decision the chiefs of
1 public security stations are obliged particularly to abide by its
2 provisions regarding the proposal of candidates for posts described in
3 Article 1."
4 And then in paragraph 2, he goes on to say:
5 [As read] "Employees may not be dismissed or removed from posts
6 without the knowledge of the CSB, as has happened in some stations.
7 Appropriate solutions for the reassignment to duties and work which are
8 not in contravention of item 1 of the decision must be sought."
22 And not only that, I believe that also in other stations people
23 were kept because it wasn't easy to find capable people. Even my
24 extension of service was due to that because actually Stojan had asked me
25 to stay. I could have retired on the 1st of June, or he could have laid
1 me off, but he kept me, even after I had met the conditions for
3 Q. In late March and coming up to the beginning of April, do you
4 recall what the situation was in CSB Banja Luka and in the ministry or
5 Secretariat of the Interior of BiH in general? We've heard evidence that
6 there was a lot of talk about separating and setting up new, separate
7 ethnic MUPs.
8 Did you know about those discussions going on at that time?
9 A. I wasn't so well-informed, but at meetings in Sarajevo, when I
10 went there, I heard from colleagues from Mostar, Tuzla, Livno, Zenica,
11 that they didn't consider the situation critical.
12 However in Krajina there was a lot. The Croats had attacked
13 Bosanska Gradiska. There was so many people killed even in a beauty
14 parlor and when I told them there was a war on from I'm from, they
15 couldn't believe.
16 At the CSB we were still hoping that war wouldn't break out.
17 There was tension in the air, but in the cafeteria, we hung out just like
18 before. Only from Prijedor there were -- there was alarming news about
19 some attacks at Kozarac or Prijedor, but we didn't have very precise
20 information, but there was something in the air.
21 Q. I want to show you next --
22 MR. HANNIS: And I think we can go into open session now.
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE HALL: I'm advised we've been in open session for the past
1 ten minutes.
2 MR. HANNIS: Okay. I guess I wasn't aware of that. I hope I
3 haven't ...
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.
5 MR. HANNIS: Okay. I hope I haven't asked anything that needs to
6 be redacted.
7 Q. Witness, we are in open session, so if I ask you a question that
8 might cause you to have to answer in a way that might identify you,
9 please let us know.
10 I next want to show you an exhibit. It's at tab 3 in your
11 binder. It's exhibit number P864.
12 This is a newspaper article, actually, two articles from Glas,
13 dated 5th of March. And that's -- that's the one, behind number 3.
14 You've got it? Oh. Yeah. That's the one.
15 And the right-hand column, I've circled it, it's an article about
16 a press conference with Stojan Zupljanin, chief of CSB in Banja Luka
17 dated 4 March. The last sentence in my English translation reads as
18 follows: "To a journalist's question whether in the future the centre in
19 Banja Luka would carry out the orders of the BiH interior ministry,
20 Zupljanin replied that the centre he was responsible for would not carry
21 out any orders of the Bosnia and Herzegovina interior ministry that might
22 possibly be directed against the interests of the Serbian people."
23 Were you aware of that? Had you heard either from someone or
24 from reading this article or otherwise about Mr. Zupljanin taking such a
25 position, vis-a-vis the Ministry of the Interior of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
2 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Let me ask you: Are you aware of a group of armed men who were
5 setting up barricades and making certain demands to the local authorities
6 in Banja Luka in the beginning of April 1992. The group referred to
7 themselves as the Serbian Defence Forces.
8 A. I have heard about the barricades which were set up to the north
9 of Banja Luka and all around because I went to visit my parents and I
10 came across the barricades. These were locals from the so-called local
11 communes. Most of them knew me. They also knew that I was working in
12 the MUP. And I never saw any policemen there. They were armed and
13 wearing yellow uniforms. These were light units from the local communes.
14 It was quite ugly. I don't know what they controlled or how.
15 They never checked me. I just passed through and I would greet them
16 because they all knew me. Some of them -- some people complained that
17 they had been subjected to control, but that was a matter of
18 interpersonal relations. They may have argued previously about a cow
19 crossing into other person's field, and I just let it go. I thought,
20 Well, everyone is defending his own village.
21 This is what I thought of that.
22 But I never saw any police there, anyone that I knew. And I knew
23 practically all the policemen in the Krajina, because during my years in
24 service, I had a chance to meet them.
25 Q. These members of the SOS, were they of Serb ethnicity?
1 A. Yes, mostly so. At least the ones I knew.
8 Q. Were you aware of the situation where they were making certain --
9 the SOS were making certain demands of the local authorities, including a
10 demand that the new Law on Ministry of Interior for the Serb Republic of
11 Bosnia should go into effect immediately, including having new, sworn
12 declarations made by people who were going to work for this new Serbian
14 Did you know about that?
15 A. I am not aware of these requests or decisions, because, as I told
16 you, I decided not to read the newspapers anymore. And as for TV, I
17 didn't have much time to follow the news. And there was tremendous
18 propaganda in the air. So even to this day I do not trust the
19 journalists at all. I am not interested in the media. That was probably
20 why I never even registered this information, that they requested the law
21 to go into effect, nor that there was this Serbian Defence, as you called
22 it, those units.
23 Q. Were you aware that some members of the so-called Serbian Defence
24 Forces later became members of the special police unit or special police
25 detachment in CSB Banja Luka.
1 Did you know that?
2 A. I just know that there was a special unit in Rakovacke Bare but
3 what its composition was, I really do not know. That was a shooting
4 ground that belonged to the army, Rakovacke Bare, and some sort of
5 special unit was set up there, but what its activities were and what it
6 looked like, that is something I do not know.
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, before you go on. I should alert you
8 that we have had to have three redactions already during the present
9 phase in open session. Just to alert you to proceed with caution. And
10 you've already reminded the witness that himself -- to himself be
11 circumspect in his reply.
12 MR. HANNIS: Perhaps, Your Honours, in light of that, perhaps I
13 should go into private session now just to avoid a problem. And if there
14 is nothing that needs to be redacted, then we can move to open up that
15 portion of the transcript.
16 JUDGE HALL: I -- I -- I don't know whether the -- I haven't seen
17 counsel from either side indicate any resistance to that, so we would
18 move that course.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 24669-24677 redacted. Private session.
19 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 I wanted to make a brief application in light of something this
18 witness said today and something that the previous witness had said.
19 The Prosecution had made a request to the Defence to inquire of
20 their witnesses if any of them would be willing to see us or to be
21 interviewed by us before they actually came to court to testify. We have
22 been advised by the Defence that they had all been contacted and asked,
23 and they all indicated that, no, they did not want to talk with us. I
24 think Ms. Korner was somewhat surprised and even made a second inquiry to
25 follow up and confirm whether or not that was correct. Again, we were
1 advised that was the case.
2 We have had three witnesses so far. The second Witness SZ-03
3 when I asked him about it at page 24602, line 25:
4 [As read] "Did anybody from the Defence, Mr. Krgovic or any of
5 his investigators tell you that we wanted to speak with you, if you were
6 willing to do so, were you told about that."
7 His answer was: "I don't know. Maybe they did, maybe they
8 didn't, take my word for it, I don't know."
9 Somewhat vague, I agree.
10 However, today this witness when he was asked about it at page
11 20, line 225:
12 [As read] "Were you informed or advised that our office, Office
13 of the Prosecutor would like to speak with you before you came to
14 testify, did you know about that?
15 "A. I heard about it here. I was told that I would be talking
16 to you but not outside of the courtroom. Only in the courtroom.
17 "Q. And you first heard about that when? When you arrived here?
18 "A. I heard it for the first time now that you wanted to talk to
19 me. My lawyer told me you would be putting questions to me in the
20 courtroom. I don't know anything about the judicial system.
21 Line 12, I said:
22 "Q. So, would you have been willing to meet with me before
23 coming into the courtroom today; is that right?
24 "A. Yes, and have a coffee and a drink. No problem about that."
25 It seemed clear that this witness was not informed. In light of
1 that, Your Honours, we would like to make a request because we think, for
2 those witnesses who might be willing to speak to us ahead of time, it
3 will save us all time in court because I can address issues with them and
4 find out they know nothing about it or what they know is in conformance
5 with what I've already got in evidence somewhere else and don't need to
6 go into it in court. Otherwise we're finishing in the dark because we
7 don't have any extended statements from these witnesses. The statement
8 of this witness was one page, basically two paragraphs.
9 We would like you to ask you to direct the Defence to re-contact
10 the remaining witnesses and ask them clearly whether or not they're
11 willing to meet with us before they actually come into court to testify.
12 Perhaps, given the problem that has occurred or seems to have
13 occurred, and I'm not putting this on the counsel, I think it may be more
14 a problem with the investigators, maybe sloppy work or worse by the
15 investigators and not any counsel. However, it has occurred and we would
16 request you direct them to do that and have it documented in some fashion
17 so that we can be satisfied that that's the case.
18 That's my application.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, before I invite you to respond, we only
20 add that, on the face of it, having regard to the -- the transcript of
21 what happened when this matter was canvassed back in June, the result
22 appears that what we were left with is the Chamber and counsel for the
23 Prosecution having been misled, and in addition to the knock-on effect to
24 which Mr. Hannis has referred, in terms of the efficient organisation of
25 the Chamber's time, there are also incidental questions, such as
1 arranging for interpreters to be -- available, such as we expected to
2 happen today.
3 So could we hear from you, Mr. Krgovic.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm -- I have been
5 carefully following what Mr. Hannis just read out for the transcript as
6 the witness having said, and I do recall the witness saying it in a
7 different fashion. So perhaps we should have a chance of putting the
8 question to the witness yet again.
9 My understanding of his words was not the same. I didn't get in
10 touch with him directly. I spoke with my investigators who told me who
11 it was who want to talk to them or not. The information I received from
12 my investigators that aside from Mr. Cavic who was not there, well, the
13 others did not wish to speak with the OTP. And that was the information
14 I conveyed to the Trial Chamber. I don't know if there was some sort of
15 misunderstanding because there was also mention made of an interview.
16 I asked him before his testimony here whether he had been
17 contacted by the OTP and whether he would be willing to give them an
18 interview and he said, well, yes, I said that I would be discussing
19 issues with the Prosecutor here in the courtroom. That was what I heard
20 from the witness.
21 So that's my response to what you had to say.
22 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, but, Mr. Krgovic, beyond any differences in
23 or shades of meaning in what this particular witness would have said, as
24 Mr. Hannis has pointed out in your favour, that he isn't blaming you
25 personally. He appreciates that you rely on investigators and others
1 that you have to convey the information back to you. The practical
2 problem with which he is faced and with which the Chamber is faced is
3 this, is that it is only counsel to whom -- with whom we communicate.
4 And, therefore, the -- what Mr. Hannis is inviting is a direction to the
5 Chamber to deal with what has become a pattern because it isn't only an
6 any miscommunication in terms of the witness who is, at present, on the
7 stand. But, as Mr. Hannis says, this is the third time this has
8 happened. And the result is -- is -- is a waste of time and money.
9 That's what we're trying to avoid.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will check once
11 more, as suggested by Mr. Hannis, and I will personally go through that
12 procedure to double-check if the information that I received and conveyed
13 to the Trial Chamber, that none of the witnesses wish to speak to the
14 Prosecutor, is correct or not, and I will inform the Chamber and the
15 Prosecution accordingly.
16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if I may.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have a question to Mr. Krgovic, because I think
18 it boils down to the issue of whether you had a chance to meet with this
19 witness prior to his coming to The Hague, and -- and, if so, whether you,
20 at that occasion, did raise the issue of his willingness to be meeting up
21 with the Prosecution.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I saw this
23 witness for the first time on his arrival in The Hague.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, I, for myself, and it's my personal
1 view, I wonder whether, if, on this particular matter, on which you took
2 a very clear position in, in the context of the 92 bis motion, if I'm not
3 wrong, if, on this matter, you got vague answers from your investigators,
4 as you call it, I would think that that must have been the consequence of
5 vague instructions to your investigators, then.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Upon Ms. Korner's
7 request, they got the instructions that were quite clear, and I was given
8 clear feedback that I conveyed to the Trial Chamber. The conclusion
9 itself and the answer given came as a surprise to me, somewhat.
10 But I will take charge of things within my team and will
11 personally check what this is about as soon as I have specific
12 information to report. I know clearly how I'm going to proceed, and I
13 will do so very soon.
14 JUDGE HALL: Anything further, Mr. Hannis.
7 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL: The -- well, as we would have said, this is clearly
13 the responsibility of counsel calling the witness. In this case, it's
14 Mr. Krgovic who is the -- the subject of this exercise. And the Chamber
15 emphasises the responsibility that he has to -- to -- to ensure that such
16 information, as is provided to the opposite side and to the Chamber, is
17 not misleading. And the -- as Mr. Hannis -- to repeat what Mr. Hannis
18 says, there appears to be a pattern in this regard, which the Chamber
19 would -- would wish comes to an end -- would hope comes to an end today.
20 So could the witness be escorted back into --
21 Could we go into closed session so the witness can be escorted
22 back into court to be released.
23 [Closed session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, and we refer to you in that manner not
9 to show any disrespect but to reflect the protective measures that you
10 have been afforded, we have no further questions of you, and you are now
12 We thank you for your assistance to the Tribunal in coming to
13 give evidence, especially having regard to the fact that you were -- were
14 called a little earlier than you may have anticipated. In that regard,
15 we thank you counsel, Mr. Krgovic, who assisted your -- your earlier
16 attendance than had originally been planned. And, as it turns out, you
17 are being released much earlier than we -- than I indicated when you
18 started this morning than you would have been.
19 So we wish you a safe journey back to your country.
20 And the Chamber has a few housekeeping matters to deal with, so
21 it would not be rising immediately, and we would go back into closed
22 session so that you could be escorted from the courtroom, and then the
23 Chamber will continue its other business.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And may I express my gratitude to
25 the Trial Chamber and everybody who contributed to my feeling well in
1 The Hague, although I did have stage fright.
2 And I apologise to the Prosecutor for not sitting down with him
3 yesterday, although I did have time. And I'm glad if I was able to
4 contribute to the clarification of matters.
5 I live in Banja Luka and will continue living there and my family
6 has lived there for a long time, some 300 years or so. So I tried to
7 shed some light on the situation, as it was.
8 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if I may, if you're still deliberating
18 the matter, I would like to direct your attention to a decision of the
19 Trial Chamber in the Mrksic case dated 1 September 2006 in which that
20 Trial Chamber addressed the issue in a certain fashion, allowing the
21 Prosecution to contact witnesses directly and try to arrange interviews.
22 I just point it out for your consideration.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Hannis. We -- we -- we were
24 wondering what practical directions to give to Mr. Hannis today -- sorry,
25 Mr. Krgovic today. And the -- if I may have a moment.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
3 JUDGE HALL: Without having had the benefit of reflecting on the
4 jurisprudence to which Mr. Hannis has just helpfully referred the
5 Chamber, we are directing you, Mr. Krgovic, that you notify the Chamber
6 and the Prosecution by close of business today, in terms of the
7 disposition in this regard of the witness who is scheduled for Monday.
8 And by Wednesday, in terms of the other two witnesses.
9 There are two rulings which the Chamber has to deliver.
10 On the 30th of September, 2011, the Zupljanin Defence filed a
11 motion seeking to change the mode of testimony of Witness SZ-012 and
12 requesting the Chamber to admit the prior testimony of the witness in the
13 Brdjanin case on 18 December 2003 pursuant to Rule 92 bis. The Defence
14 did not seek to have any documents admitted as accompanying exhibits.
15 The Prosecution filed its response on the 5th of October,
16 indicating, inter alia, that it did not object to the motion provided
17 that the entire testimony of the witness, including all the accompanying
18 documents, are received as evidence in this case. However, it did not
19 provide the Chamber with the additional transcripts of the testimony that
20 it wishes to have considered for admission, as it ought to have done. As
21 such, the Chamber is unable to proceed with considering the full
22 testimony of Witness SZ-012 from Brdjanin under the requirements for
23 admission pursuant to Rule 92 bis as it is currently only seized of the
24 portion tendered by the Zupljanin Defence.
25 Accordingly, the Chamber directs the Prosecution to file the
1 transcript of the testimony of the Witness SZ-012 from the Brdjanin case,
2 along with any accompanying documents that it wishes to have considered
3 for admission by 5.00 p.m. on Wednesday next, that is, the 12th of
5 The second ruling is as follows.
6 On the 28th of March 2011, the Zupljanin Defence filed notice
7 regarding its intent to call Vidosav Kovacevic as a military expert
9 On the 6th of May, 2011, the Prosecution responded, submitting
10 that it did not accept Kovacevic's report and that his report should not
11 be accepted in whole or in part until after his testimony had been heard
12 in full. At this time, the Prosecution also stated that it did not
13 challenge his qualifications as a military expert.
14 Kovacevic testified from the 5th to 16th September 2011. On
15 19 September 2011 upon the conclusion of his testimony, the Zupljanin
16 Defence requested the admission into evidence of his expert report and
17 related documents, including the curriculum vitae and footnoted
19 On the same day, the Prosecution objected to the admission of the
20 report in its entirety and to the material accompanying the report,
21 submitting, inter alia, that Kovacevic does not qualify as an expert on
22 the subject of his report, which does not meet the minimum standard of
23 reliability and lacks the requisite relevance and probative value for the
24 present case.
25 At the outset, the Trial Chamber recalls its approach thus far
1 regarding the admission of expert reports, in keeping with the prevalent
2 practice of the Tribunal.
3 Considering his education and experience, as well as his
4 acceptance previously as an expert in the Popovic et al trial, the
5 Trial Chamber accepts Kovacevic as a military expert within the meaning
6 of Rule 94 bis and the jurisprudence of the Tribunal.
7 With respect to the Prosecution's objections relating to the
8 witness's independence and impartiality, the Trial Chamber recalls that
9 such concerns go to the weight to be given to his evidence rather than
10 the admissibility of the report. With respect to the issue of
11 reliability generally, the Trial Chamber acknowledges that it has
12 reservations as to portions of the report and some sources relied upon by
13 the witness in its preparation, which it will consider when weighing its
14 probative value in light of all the evidence on record.
15 The Trial Chamber finds that the Kovacevic report is generally
16 relevant and could potentially be of assistance. The Trial Chamber is
17 satisfied that the report meets the minimum requirements set out in the
18 case law of the Tribunal to be accepted as an expert report and therefore
19 admits the report, bearing 65 ter number 31D2, into evidence along with
20 the CV of Mr. Kovacevic, bearing 65 ter number 30D2.
21 In addition to the report, the Zupljanin Defence seeks the
22 admission of documents footnoted in the report. Pursuant to this
23 request, on the 3rd of October, 2011, the Defence filed a motion
24 requesting leave to add the footnoted documents contained in Annex A to
25 the motion to its Rule 65 ter list and further requesting their admission
1 into evidence.
2 The Trial Chamber notes that the footnoted documents are already
3 on Zupljanin's exhibit list and were assigned new Rule 65 ter numbers
4 when several separate excerpts were compiled into one document.
5 Accordingly, the Trial Chamber grants the Defence request to add these
6 documents to its Rule 65 ter list.
7 The Trial Chamber finds the footnoted documents relevant to the
8 expert's conclusions and opinions on matters discussed in the report.
9 Consequently, they constitute inseparable parts of the report without
10 which the Chamber is not able to fully understand and assess the issues
11 discussed therein. The Trial Chamber thus admits into evidence all the
12 footnoted documents to Kovacevic's report, as contained in confidential
13 Annex A, barring Rule 65 ter number 122D2, which it finds lacks
14 sufficient relevance. The Trial Chamber admits Rule 65 ter number 126D2,
15 which is a compilation of selected items from the military lexicon
16 proposed jointly by parties to the law library.
17 Additionally, on 3 October 2011, the Prosecution filed a notice
18 for the admission of a portion of General Milanovic's testimony in the
19 Popovic et al case with Annex A containing the relevant pages of
20 transcript. The Prosecution submits that, in the event that the expert
21 report is admitted, the excerpt of testimony which was shown to Kovacevic
22 during cross-examination also ought to be admitted. The Defence has no
23 objection to the admission of this transcript excerpt. In consideration
24 of the use of this document and its relevance, the Trial Chamber admits
25 into evidence the two pages of transcript from the Popovic case tendered
1 by the Prosecution, bearing 65 ter number 20233.1.
2 The Trial Chamber therefore instructs the Registrar to assign
3 exhibit numbers to the following documents admitted publicly:
4 The expert report and the expert's CV;
5 Documents contained in Annex A to the Defence motion, except for
7 126D2 as a law library document;
8 And the transcript excerpt from the Popovic case annexed to the
9 Prosecution motion as a Prosecution Exhibit.
10 The Trial Chamber also orders the Registrar to lift the
11 confidential status of Annexes A and B to the Defence motion.
12 And if there are no other procedural matters, we will take the
13 adjournment to -- I believe we're still in this courtroom next week. So
14 Monday morning at 9.00.
15 I trust everyone has a safe weekend.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.08 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of
18 October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.