Page 25373
1 Tuesday, 8 November 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner and
12 Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the Prosecution.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery appearing for
15 Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
17 Aleksandar Aleksic, and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. [Microphone not activated]
19 Before the witness is escorted in, I don't know whether there are
20 any matters that the parties wish to raise, but the Chamber does have a
21 number of issues.
22 The first of which is -- deals with the replacement of exhibits
23 with revised translations. And the order is as follows.
24 The Trial Chamber has received two notices from the parties of
25 submission of revised English translations in relation to 15 exhibits,
Page 25374
1 one filed by the Stanisic Defence on the 14th of October and the other by
2 the Prosecution on the 18th of October. The Prosecution additionally
3 requested that new exhibit numbers be assigned to the individual daily
4 transcripts that currently make up Exhibit P6 -- 60.
5 In relation to 2D89, the Chamber clarifies that it will accept
6 the latest and most complete translation provided by the CLSS as the
7 official English translation of the exhibit. Since this version was
8 provided in response to a request for revision by the Prosecution, the
9 Chamber directs the Zupljanin Defence to upload this version into
10 e-court.
11 The Chamber is satisfied that the revised translations of all
12 15 exhibits address the concerns raised in court and directs the Registry
13 to replace the existing English translations on record of the following
14 documents with the revised versions submitted: P29, P60.3, P173, P313,
15 P630, that's 630, P633, P960.16, P1341, P1428, P2339, L-331, 1D123, 2D89,
16 2D97, and 2D137.
17 Finally, the Chamber clarifies the practice that has been
18 followed in these proceedings for the assignment of exhibit numbers to
19 the evidence admitted pursuant to Rules 92 bis, ter, and quarter. The
20 transcripts of prior testimony of witnesses are assigned one exhibit
21 number for each case in which they have testified. Consequently, while
22 transcripts of a witness's testimony from different days given in the
23 course of the same trial are to be assigned the same exhibit number,
24 transcripts from prior testimony in different cases are assigned a
25 separate exhibit number for each case in which the witness has testified.
Page 25375
1 Accompanying documents admitted as exhibits along with that testimony
2 that are then assigned sub-numbers -- I'll read that again. Accompanying
3 documents admitted as exhibits along with that testimony are then
4 assigned sub-numbers with decimal points.
5 Accordingly, the Chamber does not consider it necessary to assign
6 new decimal numbers to Exhibit P60 which is the entire transcript of the
7 prior testimony of Witness ST-152 in the Brdjanin case from the
8 27th to the 30th of May, 2002.
9 The next three issues are such as we have to go into private
10 session.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HALL: Well, the -- it would not come as a surprise to
23 counsel that the anxiety of the Chamber as we approach the end of the
24 evidence in this case to have more accurate estimates as to where we're
25 going, especially because of the competition for the time of the Judges
Page 25380
1 in terms of other cases. So the -- we would respectively invite the
2 parties to urgently meet and discuss and, if necessary, revise the
3 current estimates that they have already provided so that we - this is
4 virtually the middle of November - so we know where we would be,
5 certainly by the time the winter recess ends in January. And so we would
6 be grateful if counsel could report to us on that at their very earliest
7 convenience.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I absolutely agree. And as already
9 pointed out, that our time estimates are regrettably based on guess-work
10 as we have no real idea what these witnesses are going to say.
11 And, Your Honours, in that connection can I raise the proofing
12 note for this witness, which arrived on the 7th, which is yesterday, at
13 12.10 a.m. So I've just picked it up now. Which contains a whole -- a
14 whole - at least two or three matters which are wholly new. Although
15 this witness was interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor and
16 testified in the Kvocka case many, many years ago, this information has
17 just come to us now. So we're put at a disadvantage again because we've
18 now got to explore at the last moment matters which we weren't aware were
19 going to be dealt with.
20 Have Your Honours seen this, the proofing note? Because it was
21 sent to the legal officers, I believe.
22 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
23 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, I've made this plain on a number
24 of different occasions now, particularly where there's been a two-week
25 break. It is simply not good enough and is likely to delay matters
Page 25381
1 potentially when we get at the last moment, literally, the midnight hour,
2 a proofing note which contains further information which could have been
3 obtained, and probably was obtained from him, at least a fortnight ago.
4 So, Your Honours, I do make that, I'm afraid, a rather repetitive
5 complaint. And also, it explains why it's so difficult for us to give
6 realistic estimates for cross-examination.
7 Your Honours, we will sit down after court today and try and work
8 out -- or certainly as far as Mr. Krgovic is concerned, which witnesses
9 are coming in and how long he thinks examination-in-chief will take.
10 But, again, I repeat my request for an order that we simply do not get
11 proofing notes with new information at the very last moment.
12 JUDGE HALL: Well, as you have said, Ms. Korner, this is a
13 repetitive complaint, and I don't know what the Chamber can say that it
14 hasn't already said. But the -- among the things that we would
15 need to -- we, as the Chamber, would need to be in a position to -- to
16 get a sense of, is the latest date on which the Prosecution would be
17 moving for the addition of and scheduling of any rebuttal witnesses. So
18 the -- we await the results of your consultations.
19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, going back to my repetitive
20 complaint: Your Honours do have power to make an order which I asked for
21 but you declined to give, namely that we should get it 72 hours in
22 advance. This witness is going to take the whole of the week. There is
23 no reason at all why one of the at least two counsel cannot deal with
24 proofing of the next witness. And again, I repeat my request that we get
25 it 72 hours in advance.
Page 25382
1 Your Honours, as regards the rebuttal evidence, we have put in
2 motions for two witnesses that we would like to call in rebuttal as far
3 as the Stanisic case is concerned, plus documents. And we await the
4 ruling on that. We can arrange, if we finish the Defence evidence, say,
5 in the first week of December, or whenever it is we're sitting, we can
6 probably try and arrange to call rebuttal evidence in the second period.
7 I can't remember now what dates in December we're sitting.
8 It's the last two weeks.
9 Well, if we finish the Defence evidence in the last week and
10 Your Honours grant us leave, then, as far as those witnesses are
11 concerned, we don't foresee any problem with getting them here whenever.
12 Your Honours, as far as Zupljanin Defence is concerned, we're
13 still in the middle of it, so we can't realistically deal with rebuttal
14 evidence until it's completed. Or we can do it in bits and piece, I
15 suppose, but that's the best we can do.
16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
17 Do -- Mr. Zecevic, Mr. Krgovic, do you have any observation on
18 the scheduling matter before we continue with hearing the evidence of the
19 witness who's here?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have informed
21 both the OTP and the Registry that the testimony of the witness will be
22 shorter. I will need about six to seven hours, depending on the medical
23 condition of the witness.
24 I've also informed the OTP that by the end of the week I will
25 revise the list of witnesses so that probably one witness will be
Page 25383
1 removed. We want to make sure that the Zupljanin Defence case, as
2 announced, finish in December.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honour, my
4 only comment will refer to the rebuttal evidence.
5 We would kindly request that -- that the -- that the time
6 between -- between the decision of Your Honours on the application by the
7 Office of the Prosecutor be at least 21 days before the -- before the
8 witnesses appear in -- in the courtroom so we will have enough time to
9 prepare for their cross-examination.
10 Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I appreciate, of course, that until
13 Your Honours rule, the Stanisic Defence and us are not able to say what's
14 going to happen, but there's no reason that I can see, in order to save
15 time, I think, really, we all want to finish the evidence in this case
16 and the case, that -- that, in anticipation of a ruling, the
17 Stanisic Defence could be doing some preparation work already. We're not
18 proposing to call any other evidence.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course we are doing the preparation work. But,
20 still, Your Honours, between the time when the decision is made and
21 the -- and the witnesses are -- are coming to testify, first we would
22 like to interview these witnesses, and we can't do that before
23 Your Honours' ruling and before we ask the Office of the Prosecutor.
24 Then we will have to go in the field and do the investigation and talk to
25 some other witnesses possibly for the -- for the rejoinder or -- or to
Page 25384
1 check the -- the truthfulness of the -- of the -- of the points which
2 these -- these witnesses are called to testify.
3 Therefore, we need to go in the field. And Ms. Korner is fully
4 aware of the fact that we don't have any investigators on our team.
5 Thank you.
6 MS. KORNER: No, just six lawyers.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Well, we've heard what you said,
8 Mr. Zecevic, and we would decide whether the 21 days is reasonable, and
9 decide accordingly.
10 So if there are no other housekeeping matters ...
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, one more thing. Are we -- yes, we are
12 in the open session. The -- Your Honours ordered us by today to go back
13 through exhibits which had been exhibited under seal to see if any of
14 them could be made public. We provided a list to the Defence last week.
15 We had a response from the Stanisic Defence to say they had no objection.
16 And I understand that yesterday they sent us a list for confirmation that
17 we had no objection, which I understand is documents they put to
18 Prosecution witnesses which were made under seal because the witness was
19 testifying either in closed session or -- or whatever. So we need to
20 check that, just to make sure that we agree with that. I'm sure we can.
21 We've not heard from the Zupljanin Defence about this, but we're
22 assuming, for this purpose, that silence is consent.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]
24 MS. KORNER: Right, well, Sunday appears to be a busy day for the
25 Zupljanin Defence.
Page 25385
1 Your Honours, I haven't had a chance to check that, but I'll
2 check that. But, Your Honours, so it would be a slight delay but you
3 should have -- or the legal officers or the Court should have a list of
4 those documents we think no longer need to be under seal certainly later
5 this week.
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. You said you were ordered to do so by
7 today. Do I gather from what you would have said that what you've just
8 articulated is a joint motion for the extension of the order or variation
9 of the order? Or was it -- or did you use the word "order" loosely?
10 MS. KORNER: Well, I wasn't sure -- well, it was an order but not
11 couched in arbitrary terms, if I can put it that way. I think
12 Your Honours said, If at all possible by the 8th of November. But if it
13 was an order, then we respectively ask that we get a few more days'
14 grace.
15 JUDGE HALL: How many more days? You're the one on your feet.
16 MS. KORNER: All we've got to do is check the Stanisic ones and
17 then we can draft a very short motion because it's in a format, a
18 spreadsheet, that'll make it quite easy to put in. So can we say Friday,
19 Your Honours?
20 JUDGE HALL: Friday? Friday it is. Thank you.
21 So could we go into closed session so the witness may be escorted
22 into court, please.
23 [Closed session]
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18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 Examination by Mr. Krgovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
22 I will just show you a piece of paper with your personal details,
23 with the usher's assistance.
24 Would you please look at that document and tell us whether that
25 is your name and date of birth.
Page 25391
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you please sign it.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, could we have the exhibit number for
4 this document.
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked, under seal.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D183, under seal, Your Honours.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: Can we move to the private session for the purpose
8 of next line of questions, please.
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
10 [Private session]
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21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 We return in 20 minutes. But before we rise -- sorry.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
Page 25406
1 JUDGE HALL: Before we rise: Dealing with something while I
2 remember it, we -- we alert counsel and the parties as -- as early as
3 possible that next -- about next Monday and Tuesday the -- we intend to
4 shift the first session on Tuesday to Monday afternoon in order to
5 accommodate certain other activities in which the Judges may be involved.
6 So the exact times, we would notify you in the course of the week. But
7 if you can think in terms of the fact that we would have an extended
8 session on Monday to make up for the session on -- first session on
9 Tuesday.
10 20 minutes.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL: Could we go into closed session so that the witness
15 could be escorted into court.
16 [Closed session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Let us continue, sir. But I will be putting now questions
25 concerning your employment.
Page 25407
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And I will ask, if I may, for a
2 private session.
3 [Private session]
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14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. In the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka, how were
18 communications dealt with? And later I will tell you about the state
19 security centre. How did communications work?
20 A. The Security Services Centre and the Centre for National Security
21 Services had one single line of communication, but the Security Services
22 Centre had one separate, special line of communication for direct
23 communications with administrations at the republic level.
24 In addition to that, at that time there was a parallel system of
25 communication in use which provided a direct line with Yugoslavia. I
Page 25409
1 don't know if it was the Army of Yugoslavia. Anyway, there was a group
2 working with that.
3 Q. Who were the people in that group; and to which sector did it
4 belong?
5 A. It was a separate group made up of people who were trained in
6 communications. It was a group of operative officers called Milos who
7 had a direct line to the Army of Yugoslavia, and I believe they passed on
8 information through special devices that could send encrypted reports to
9 the headquarters at the Yugoslav level.
10 Q. Did they have connections with the state security of Yugoslavia
11 or Serbia?
12 A. Yes. I believe there was one period when they had links to the
13 state security but also the military security of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. What kind of information was sent through the centre where these
15 state security employees worked?
16 A. Dispatches on some information that was gathered in the area of
17 state secretary that was sent directly to the under-secretary or somebody
18 from the administration who was authorised by the under-secretary.
19 Q. Did the State Security Service also use the common line of
20 communication; and what kind of information was sent through common
21 communications?
22 A. Reports on some common affairs, like providing security for a VIP
23 or a convoy. That's where the state security people would get involved.
24 Whereas, things that were strictly linked to state security were sent
25 through the other line, because at that time we were given a special
Page 25410
1 device - I think it was called Neven [phoen] - and it was possible with
2 it to use this special communication, secure communication, reports that
3 were protected from being decoded.
4 Q. Within the Security Services Centre, you've spoken earlier about
5 the centre, what do you call it?
6 A. The state security centre.
7 Q. Is there another sector apart from the state security sector?
8 I'm talking about the Security Services Centre.
9 A. In the Security Services Centre, state security was practically a
10 tenant. All of our services were separate. Whereas, the Security
11 Services Centre, the public part, had their own separate services and
12 they held their main communications centre that was used for almost all
13 communications. It did not work very well at the beginning, but I don't
14 believe it ever went out of operation. At least, the communications with
15 the surrounding municipalities were linked through that.
16 Q. As regards reporting, can you explain the relationship between
17 the chief of the State Security Centre and the chief of the centre in
18 your line of work? You've spoken a lot about that in the interview.
19 Could you just explain.
20 A. I've said that there was a dual subordination. We were
21 subordinated, first of all, to the ministry; namely, to the state
22 security sector and the under-secretary for state security at the level
23 of the republic. Apart from that, our chief had this horizontal
24 co-ordination with the chief of the centre, and he had to provide certain
25 services to the centre chief connected with some operative activities
Page 25411
1 where the State Security Service could be of use.
2 Q. Did the state security chief report to the Security Services
3 Centre chief on everything, on all the information he had; and how did
4 that work?
5 A. I know that he was not required to provide all the information.
6 I don't think even the state security chief received all the information
7 available, because there were parallel services and parallel lines of
8 communications. He could provide what he thought was needed at the level
9 of the centre, something that had to do with law and order, some advance
10 reports on things that could be prevented, with the involvement of the
11 public security. That's how it worked in the previous system too.
12 Q. Who appointed the chief of the state security centre?
13 A. He and the authorised officers were appointed by the
14 under-secretary for state security. He also gave them their titles and
15 issued all decisions regarding the work of state security. I think he
16 was also authorised to provide approval for state security measures to be
17 applied.
18 Q. What kind of measures?
19 A. Operative and operative/technical measures. Since the state
20 security had the capability and the equipment, in cases when it was
21 needed it also provided certain services to the Security Services Centre
22 and their crime investigation unit, especially in the area of drug
23 trafficking and other crime.
24 Q. Were there any particular features to the state security work,
25 like secrecy, that distinguished them from the public security sector?
Page 25412
1 A. There were particular features, because the level of secrecy in
2 our sector was at a higher level, and all our dispatches and reports were
3 marked with a corresponding degree of secrecy or security clearance. And
4 we also identified the degree to which our information has been verified,
5 which was very important.
6 Q. And how about submitting reports and information; were there any
7 particular features there?
8 A. There was this idiosyncrasy in our work. First of all, we had
9 more modern equipment for sending communications, and we had this
10 computer-driven device for coding and encryption; whereas the public
11 security sector worked with old equipment, and ours was more advanced and
12 more reliable.
13 Q. How about the circle of people to whom your information was
14 provided; were there any restrictions there?
15 A. There were. On dispatches it was always indicated to whom they
16 were available, like which administration or under-secretary, and then
17 they decided what kind of information could be made available to lower
18 levels. So it sometimes happened that our reports were later passed on
19 by the under-secretary or the administrations down to lower level
20 centres. They would just write: To All.
21 Q. Who was it that decided that the State Security Services Centre
22 to whom information would be sent? Who had that right?
23 A. It was the centre chief who had that right. In other words,
24 Kesic. Because, in practice, all information first went to him, and then
25 he would return some information that wasn't in line to -- with the
Page 25413
1 criteria, so he filtered that. Then following the next filter down was
2 the chiefs of the line of work, who could also request additional
3 clarification, and so on.
4 Q. You said, I believe, that it was the chiefs of the line of work
5 who first filtered the information. Was it that way, or how was it?
6 A. The official lines of work, that is, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, the
7 information went first through the chiefs of the lines of work. Whereas,
8 the Milos Group was separate and autonomous because they had links with
9 the Federation. And I cannot speak about the way they worked with any
10 certainty. But I suppose that they gave their information directly to
11 the centre chief. Or possibly, in some situations, they even passed him
12 by. I know from personal experience that the Federation sometimes
13 demanded that.
14 Q. Please tell me about the ethnic composition of the State Security
15 Centre personnel in early 1992.
16 A. The ethnic composition mostly remained the same, as far as we're
17 concerned. We had Croatian, Muslim, and Serbian personnel, and there
18 were also some members of ethnic minorities. They were all equally
19 represented.
20 Previously, ethnic representation was an important consideration,
21 and the composition of the operative staff had to reflect the ethnic
22 composition of the area where the centre was located.
23 Q. And after 1992, after April 1992, was this ethnic composition in
24 the State Security Services centre the same as before?
25 A. Yes. It basically remained unchanged.
Page 25414
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please display
2 Exhibit 65 ter 25D2. That's at tab 2 in the Zupljanin Defence binder. I
3 do have hard copies for the witness, though, so could I ask the usher to
4 hand this to him.
5 Q. Please go to tab 2. You can see the tabs, and it will also be
6 displayed on the screen.
7 A. Yes, I can see the screen.
8 Q. Can you read what it says at the beginning?
9 A. It says: "Banja Luka Security Services Centre, National Security
10 Services Centre, salary, personnel records, media co. info systems
11 programme, LD-317, version: RM 1. List of bonuses for 1992."
12 Then it says personal identification number, first and last name,
13 and amount, and then there's a list of employees, the amount of the
14 bonus, and signatures certifying the reception.
15 Q. Could you please explain to us the notion of bonus at the time.
16 A. It was an amount that was added on top of the regular salary to
17 provide for the costs of going on vacation. It was usually paid out in
18 the summer, that is, during the holiday period.
19 And we can see here that it was paid out in mid-June.
20 Q. Are there any other kinds of bonuses or subsidies such as for
21 a -- for warm meals during working hours, and so on?
22 A. Yes, that existed earlier. But I believe that at this time these
23 weren't paid because of the shortage of funds. In that year we only
24 received money for vacation, and it was at that time, roughly.
25 Q. Did everybody get that who was an employee at the time?
Page 25415
1 A. Yes. You were eligible as an employee.
2 Q. Sir, please tell me if you recognise a name from this list. And
3 we can also turn the page.
4 A. These are all employees of the National Security Services Centre
5 at the time. I know that there were 48, and I've already found my name
6 too.
7 Q. Just be careful not to mention your name, or the number under
8 which it can be found, because of the protective measures.
9 Can you tell me if there are members of other ethnicities, that
10 is, non-Serbs on the list; and, if so, please point out the names to us.
11 A. Sead Besic.
12 Q. Which number?
13 A. Eight. He is a Muslim by ethnicity.
14 Q. More?
15 A. Milan Baric.
16 Q. What is his ethnicity?
17 A. A Croat. He was chief at the time. Department chief.
18 Q. Which number is he?
19 A. Eleven.
20 Q. Any more?
21 A. Emir Zahirovic, number 17, a Muslim by ethnicity.
22 Q. Any more?
23 A. Suvad Nokto, number 23.
24 Q. His ethnicity?
25 A. Muslim.
Page 25416
1 Josip Ladan, number 24, an ethnic Croat.
2 Q. Any more?
3 A. Muharem Zjajo, number 25, an ethnic Muslim.
4 Mira Ibrahimbegovic. I'm not sure, she may be -- she may have
5 been born in a mixed marriage. She's under number 29.
6 Q. What about number 27?
7 A. Dean Brzovic. He's an ethnic Croat.
8 Have I said 29 all ready?
9 Number 30, Blanka Komosar; she's a Croatian woman.
10 Mara Vignjevic, number 31. Vignjevic. Croatian ethnicity.
11 Nisveta Dervisic, 36; a Muslim woman.
12 Zeljko Domazet, 38; an ethnic Croat.
13 Ivan Figurek, 39; an ethnic Ukrainian.
14 I think that this is it.
15 Q. If you remember, who of these persons remained on the job until
16 the end of 1992? Did you see them around at the centre?
17 A. I did see Emir Zahirovic. I think that he was chief of one of
18 the lines of work. And I saw Nisveta Dervisic; she was the secretary of
19 the centre chief, and I saw her often. Maybe -- there may be more, but I
20 was out in the field a lot. But I'm certain that these were there until
21 the end. I think that there was Sead Besic; I did see him around too.
22 Q. Did you see Zeljko Domazet?
23 A. Yes, yes, him too. Yes, I think he was there until the end.
24 Q. Ivan Figurek?
25 A. Yes, him too. For a while he assisted our liaison officers,
Page 25417
1 because he, too, spoke languages. He spoke Russian. And when they were
2 Russian officers, he would come to assist.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender this
4 exhibit -- this document.
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D184, Your Honours.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, for the purpose of next line of
8 question, I think I would go -- ask to go to the private session.
9 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Yes.
10 [Private session]
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Page 25418
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Page 25426
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Page 25428
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10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Look at the document before you, please. There are several
14 pages. Look through them.
15 What are the first four pages?
16 A. As you can see, this is the payroll for August 1992.
17 Q. Look at the last page, please.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: And, Your Honours, for this purpose can we go to
19 the private session.
20 And I kindly ask this document not to be broadcast.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, do we need to go into private session
23 or is it sufficient that the document not be published outside the
24 courtroom?
25 MR. KRGOVIC: I think that the second matter will resolve the
Page 25439
1 problem.
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21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE HALL: Could we move into private session briefly, please.
23 Thanks, Anna.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 25440
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4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I saw some entries, and you say that you recognise some of
9 these -- I'll ask you in private session who wrote these entries. But
10 what is this list?
11 A. It's a list of salaries received by the military component of the
12 unit.
13 Q. And on page 1 we can see that it says active-duty members were
14 not paid.
15 A. They didn't collect their money. It means that active-duty
16 members got what they were entitled to from their respective
17 organisational units. Only military personnel - I suppose that was the
18 agreement - was paid by the centre.
19 Q. Let us go to page 2.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The following page, please.
21 Q. Next to numbers 49, 50, and 55 I see empty lines. What does that
22 mean?
23 A. Oh, the empty spaces are next to the names of those unit members
24 who were taken off the wartime assignment. That is, they were kicked
25 out. And there is a number of active-duty members, but they are marked
Page 25441
1 by an A in front of their names. That means that all those who -- in
2 front of whose names there is no A means that they were kicked out or
3 that they went AWOL.
4 Q. I can see on the second page, next to persons number 49, 50 and
5 55 --
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we go to the following
7 page, please.
8 Q. Here, too, I see a number of empty spaces.
9 A. The same applies to them.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to page 7 in e-court.
11 Q. And it's the last page of this document, sir.
12 I can see here eight names. Can you read out this handwritten
13 remark.
14 A. "Neither paid nor was the money for them collected."
15 Q. Do you know any of these names?
16 A. Yes. These are members of the special detachment who got killed
17 in Kotor Varos.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: And, Your Honours, before the last question, can we
19 go -- can we move to the private session.
20 [Private session]
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Page 25442
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7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Please take a look at the following page of this document,
11 page 8.
12 What is this about?
13 And the following document, which ends in 77470.
14 Can you tell us what this is?
15 A. This is a list of persons who were vetted upon the request of the
16 chief, I think. There are over 265 persons on the list who were
17 allegedly members of the CSB special detachment, and I think that I
18 entered these remarks and somebody before me entered the remarks in
19 handwriting.
20 Q. Please stop for a moment. What you looked at before, as this is
21 a single exhibit, and what we're looking at now, is this one document?
22 A. No. These are two completely different documents. The first one
23 was drafted - actually, I did it - to pay the members when the detachment
24 was being dissolved. In other words, this is a list of persons who, in
25 August 1992, were entitled to salaries, that is, they were on the payroll
Page 25443
1 of the detachment; whereas, the second contains these persons about whom
2 checks were made, and most of them were totally unrelated to the
3 detachment.
4 I was requested by Djuro Bulic to make -- to do this, I think it
5 was in 1993, because there was some negative connotations with regard to
6 the detachment, and we didn't have all information about persons against
7 whom action had been taken because of some offences.
8 So first somebody checked with public security, and then I
9 received the list with this incomplete information, and what I was able
10 to find out, I entered here. But it was very difficult because many
11 people had already returned to their original units or towns or had left
12 the Banja Luka area, and it was difficult to come by all this
13 information. That's why the information is not complete.
14 There may be some people among them who either got killed or were
15 members of a unit about which we were unable to get information.
16 Q. Please take a look at number 6. It says Dragoljub Blazevic.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Please read out what this says beside his name.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And its ERN 77463; that's page 8 in
20 e-court. Number 6.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person under number 6 is
22 Dragoljub Blazevic. I indicated that he was taken off the war-time
23 assignment in June 1992 and that he is with the military police brigade.
24 And it is also indicated, Did not take part in combat activities. But
25 then I struck that out, because we were unable to verify that probably.
Page 25444
1 But, certainly, he was taken off -- or out of the
2 war-time establishment in June probably because of some offence.
3 Q. Please take a look at numbers 32 and 34. What do these remarks
4 say?
5 A. Person 32 is Dubravko Calo. The remark reads, "Removed in
6 June 1992."
7 Q. And 34?
8 A. Sinisa Civcic. The same remark, "Removed in June 1992."
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The English translation is not on
10 the screen.
11 Q. Can you tell us ... have you found persons on this list who were
12 not members of the special detachment?
13 A. A significant number of these persons were not members of the
14 special detachment. This even says so. But some units entered such
15 information in their war-time assignment, so we saw that in military post
16 number 7007. There are a number of persons, but that military post
17 number had nothing to do with us. And there are quite a few people who
18 were removed for lack of discipline or criminal activities.
19 Q. Please take a look at ERN 0077466.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That's at page 11 in e-court. Person number 129.
22 A. Mirko Lukic.
23 Q. Please read out the remark -- the remark next to his name.
24 A. "Military police captain." And underneath -- or, rather, to the
25 right we can see that he is in Odzak.
Page 25445
1 Q. If a certificate about participation in the war were requested
2 to -- to exercise some rights, who would the people who needed that turn
3 to?
4 A. To me. I paid out their salaries, and I always consulted with
5 the chief of his department -- or, rather, the platoon commander, issued
6 them a certificate stating that he was a member, because I didn't know
7 them all, so the platoon commanders provided information about somebody
8 being a member of their platoon or not.
9 Q. Please return to the previous page.
10 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krgovic, you
11 haven't forgotten Ms. Korner's request for five minutes.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, this is my last question.
13 Q. Take a look at persons 104 through 106. There's a summary
14 remark, can you read it out.
15 A. It says: "Zoran Tatic should know these people."
16 Q. What does that mean?
17 A. We had no information about them. We didn't know who they were.
18 And somebody said that Zoran Tatic may know, and that's why I made that
19 remark.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is all I had for
21 today, so we can finish with this witness's evidence for today.
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we are about to take the adjournment
23 for today and I'm obliged to point out to you that having been sworn as a
24 witness, you cannot have any communication with counsel from either side
25 until you are released by the Tribunal. Moreover, in such conversations
Page 25446
1 as you may have with persons outside of the court, you cannot discuss
2 your testimony.
3 Do you understand what I've just explained?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE HALL: We have certain procedural matters with which to
6 deal, and therefore the usher would be asked to escort you out a little
7 ahead of us. So we would continue with your testimony tomorrow morning.
8 Could we go into closed session so the witness may be escorted
9 from the courtroom, please.
10 [Closed session]
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24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 MS. KORNER: Right.
Page 25447
1 Your Honours, Mr. Krgovic was giving the explanation and then
2 asked if the witness could leave while he carried on. And I think I then
3 suggested --
4 JUDGE HALL: Sorry -- [microphone not activated]
5 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see. The noise.
6 JUDGE HALL: Could you wait for the blinds to go up because it
7 interferes with the recording.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just this. Mr. Krgovic's explanation
9 about this last witness and the late proofing note was that he didn't get
10 here till Friday. But, Your Honour, we've had two -- in fact more than
11 two weeks, because a witness couldn't be got here, apparently, to fill up
12 time, and we finished the last witness before the end of our allotted
13 period, to see the upcoming witnesses. And that's what I asked for, and
14 indeed I sent a reminder, that it would be helpful to have the proofing
15 notes last Wednesday. There is no excuse for this. Your Honour, we do
16 not have, for the most part, statements from these witness [sic]. With
17 this witness we do, but he came up, as I've just made clear, with
18 entirely new information which he has never ever said before and which,
19 we submit, has never been put to witnesses.
20 And so we say, because of this gap, there is no excuse for
21 getting proofing notes at the last moment like this. Your Honours last
22 time said as soon as possible. Well, Your Honours, I'm afraid that the
23 Defence are not making use, proper use, of the time.
24 The witness who is coming after this witness, next week, we ask
25 Your Honours now to make an order that we be told in terms, because all
Page 25448
1 we've got is a vague description of what the witness will say, again,
2 about Kotor Varos, the events thereof, we would like to have a proofing
3 note now, please, by, at the latest, Monday of next week, and we'd like
4 an order to that effect.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as regards the next
6 witness: According to the scheduling order he should be here on Friday
7 or Saturday, and we believe that we will be able to give the Prosecution
8 proofing notes on Monday. I don't think there should be problems with
9 that witness.
10 I am not saying that this is justification, but the Defence is
11 really trying to do all we can for the OTP. But the witnesses mostly
12 have medical problems and they all arrive 72 hours in advance of their
13 testimony. That is, not more than 72 hours before. And we have little
14 time to talk to them. And some of them we haven't even seen. And
15 therefore cannot give a full -- cannot give full and detailed information
16 before the witnesses come here.
17 Apart from two witnesses, all witnesses on our 65 --
18 62 [as interpreted] ter list have already testified before or were
19 interviewed by the Prosecution, and 90 per cent of the events they will
20 testify about is already contained in that material. The OTP has no
21 reason to assert that they are precluded from anything on -- or
22 prejudiced against. All witnesses will speak about events that have --
23 about which evidence was given by Prosecution witnesses, and this means
24 that no more topics have appeared after the end of the OTP case. All
25 events these witnesses will speak about have already been mentioned
Page 25449
1 during the Prosecution case.
2 We are making an effort to use the time between two adjournments
3 as efficiently as possible. We're trying to remove witnesses from our
4 list, if possible, or shorten their testimony or adapt the manner of
5 their testimony. We're trying to verify some facts. So it is very
6 complex work. We don't limit ourselves to give any information
7 whatsoever to the OTP.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is simply - I'm trying to think of
9 the polite word for this. Your Honours, each and every one of these
10 witnesses allegedly refused to be interviewed by the Prosecution. Very
11 few of these witnesses have actually been interviewed by the OTP and none
12 of the upcoming witnesses that are left have been interviewed by the OTP.
13 Accordingly, Your Honours, I'm sorry I said Monday, it's far too late, of
14 course, because of course he will be up on Tuesday. There is nothing,
15 nothing whatsoever, to stop Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Aleksic, and their endless
16 team of investigators taking proper statements from these witnesses, or
17 proofing notes, whatever you like to call them, during the two-week
18 adjournment. Banja Luka is hardly a million miles from Belgrade or
19 wherever counsel live.
20 So, Your Honours, can we please have an order now - forget about
21 Monday, because, of course, the witness will potentially be starting on
22 Tuesday - we want the proofing note or a full statement from this witness
23 72 hours in advance, which will be Friday.
24 JUDGE HALL: Well, we're passed the time for the adjournment for
25 today. So we have on board the application for an order. And the
Page 25450
1 Chamber, of course, would decide what to say that is consistent both with
2 the Rules and is effective, because we have walked this path many times
3 before, and we understand Ms. Korner's frustration that we have said
4 heretofore has not yielded the desired results.
5 But we will see where we are tomorrow when we resume.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of
8 November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.
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