1 Thursday, 10 November 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances today,
12 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, assisted
13 by Case Manager Sebastiaan van Hooydonk today.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. It
15 seems I'm not awake yet. For the Stanisic Defence team,
16 Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
18 Aleksandar Aleksic, and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE HALL: If there are no preliminary matters, could we go
22 into closed session so the witness can be escorted back to the stand.
23 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to take this
12 binder and give it to the witness.
13 WITNESS: SZ-002 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up P628; and
17 that is tab 22 in the Zupljanin Defence binder. The ERN is 004353.
18 For your information, sir, it's in the upper right-hand corner.
19 4353. I need the page with the ERN that I've just mentioned. Item 8.
20 Page 5 in e-court. In the English version it's page 8.
21 Q. Sir, you remember that we discussed item 7 yesterday, and now
22 please focus on item 8 and the two incidents described in that item and
23 the following.
24 Some persons - their names aren't mentioned - dressed in dark
25 blue camouflage uniforms committed some offence.
1 A. I don't think we established that. At that time, the uniforms
2 were dark blue, as far as I remember, but I don't think they were -- they
3 had a camouflage pattern. We were not able to identify this. We lined
4 up the detachment members twice for identification because this language
5 could often be seen: Member of the detachment. But when we lined up the
6 unit and when the victims inspected the men lined up, they were unable to
7 recognise the perpetrators among the members of the special detachment.
8 It was typical that any offence was attributed to members of the
9 special detachment, and I mean the police detachment.
10 Q. Now please look at item 10 where an incident is described. An
11 abandoned apartment and one Petar Pozin moved in. The tenant, the
12 rightful tenant, had left for Canada. That's item 10.
13 Do you remember this event? And had this person any right to use
14 that apartment?
15 A. I think that this was legal, that somebody moved into an
16 abandoned apartment. But somebody from the police also wanted to move
17 in, so there was a problem with that, I think.
18 Q. Under 11 we see that on the 11th of June, 1992, one Novakovic,
19 member of the special detachment, killed a dog and there was a clash with
20 the dog's owner.
21 Do you remember the incident?
22 A. Yes, I do. In this case, I conducted an interview. There were a
23 number of dispatches about this and basically the dog bit the man. And
24 then he killed the dog and the dog owner reacted, but the man slapped him
25 on the face in anger. But there was no official report later, no report
1 about this incident.
2 Q. According to you, was there a reason why this man killed that
4 A. To my mind, he obviously was unfamiliar with the way animals
5 behave. He shouldn't have reacted, but, you know, when you get attacked
6 by a dog, it's difficult to control yourself. I don't think this is a
7 serious offence, and that person wasn't punished either, although he --
8 he hit the dog owner. But he could instigate a private lawsuit, if he
9 considered it necessary. As both men mentioned are Serbs, there's no
10 ethnic element in this incident. No inter-ethnic element.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, please remind me of the relevance of
12 all of this.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, leading this evidence
14 through a witness, the Prosecution tried to show that the members of this
15 detachment were not disciplined and yet were not punished, that no action
16 was taken against them, and that all men mentioned here were members of
17 the special detachment. This consists of a number of documents, but
18 this, Your Honour, is a list of all events, a document that comprises all
19 the incidents that were reported to the police in Banja Luka. There's
20 about a dozen documents, but this lists all incidents.
21 So I want to probe with the witness whether these men were,
22 indeed, detachment members, whether they really committed an offence, and
23 whether anything was done about that.
24 This is the purpose of my examination.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I thought so. But I should also remind you that
1 the issue is, rather, whether any member of the special police detachment
2 was involved in war crimes and other crimes as alleged in the indictment,
3 and I think this simply falls below the threshold.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm proceeding
5 incident by incident, but we will reach some incidents with an
6 inter-ethnic element, such as the one in item 15 involving persons of
7 different ethnicities. The one in item 15 and later, the Prosecution and
8 witnesses discussed that a lot and the Prosecution tried to show that no
9 disciplinary action was taken against the members of such a unit;
10 whereas, we claim the opposite and are trying to prove that.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, be clear then. You have to focus on
12 the issues that are raised in the indictment. Disciplinary sanctions for
13 small petty crimes falls outside the scope of the indictment and it is
14 simply not relevant. And neither party is at large to spend time on
15 issues that are not necessary to go through here in these proceedings.
16 So you have to focus. If you think that you have an example in
17 this list that relates to discriminate behaviour regarding serious
18 crimes, war crimes and crimes against humanity and other crimes, or the
19 crimes that are alleged in the indictment, then focus on those and drop
20 the rest.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think we need to make it clear, I
23 think we have made it clear before, we don't dispute that some
24 disciplinary actions were taken against some officers, not, I may say,
25 the special police. But we say, as Your Honour said rightly, we assert
1 on the evidence that no disciplinary action was taken for the main part
2 against members of the police for crimes that involve -- were committed
3 against other ethnicities.
4 So I hope that's clear.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Krgovic.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Incidents in items 12, 13, and 14, where some crimes against
9 Ejub Mustafic and Abid Cehic were committed, can you tell us the
10 ethnicity of the injured parties?
11 A. They are Muslims.
12 Q. Was the perpetrator identified? Were the perpetrators members of
13 the special detachment?
14 A. We were unable to establish that the perpetrators were, indeed,
15 members of the special detachment because nothing is known here about the
16 identity of the perpetrators. But the offences in question involve five
17 litres of gasoline and the other was about 800 litres of oil. This could
18 have been dealt with in private lawsuits.
19 Q. In item 15, Sinisa Krizanac took a car off citizen Visatiski.
20 What is this Visatiski's ethnicity?
21 A. He was a Croat or a Ukrainian maybe. I suppose he's a Croat,
22 though, because there was this Croatian priest whose name was Visatiski.
23 Q. What happened to this that man Krizanac?
24 A. As soon as we learned about this incident, we kicked out --
25 kicked him out from the detachment and transferred him to the military.
1 His case was further dealt with by Colonel Stevilovic.
2 Q. Question number 18 refers to an incident that I will skip.
3 Marinko Maricic [phoen], what happened to him? Did he stay in the
4 detachment or was he thrown out?
5 A. He was thrown out.
6 Q. And let's just quickly go through this.
7 Number 21, Damir Brajic. Was he a member of the detachment?
8 A. Damir Brajic was never a member of the detachment. It says here
9 that he is an interesting person in that he had committed a variety of
10 crimes, and he was obviously inserted here with the intention of
11 discrediting members of the detachment. But he was never a member of the
13 Q. Number 22 and 23 refer to an incident wherein members, some
14 members, of the detachment were arrested and the public security station
15 arrested them. And then there's a reference to an incident where they
16 were freed from prison with the use of force. Do you recall that?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Were you involved in these incidents? And can you describe what
19 you did at the time and what you know about this?
20 A. We were informed about this. Contact was made with Mr. Zupljanin
21 to notify him, because people seemed to believe that they had been
22 arrested unfairly over some stolen car, and proceedings took place after
24 I know there was a lot of dissatisfaction among the members of
25 the detachment about this, so somebody from the command spoke to
1 Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Tutus, and I know that Mr. Zupljanin or somebody
2 from the centre sent a dispatch to Minister Tutus to speed up this
3 process because some members of detachment were involved. Even I went on
4 one occasion to the centre.
5 Q. Excuse me, I want to ask you: Did you go to have this
6 conversation before or after the dispatch?
7 A. I went after the dispatch. Because, before that I had been to
8 see Mr. Zupljanin and he told me that the dispatch had gone out already
9 but that I should go and see Mr. Tutus. They were in the same building,
10 so I went to Mr. Tutus's office and we talked about this.
11 Q. And what did he tell Mr. Tutus?
12 A. Well, first of all I asked for more information. And when he
13 told me that it was about the theft of a car, that it was a crime, I said
14 the arrest was a good thing then.
15 Q. Did you pass on this information to Mr. Zupljanin then? Did he
16 say anything?
17 A. Yes, I believe I told him, but I can't remember now.
18 Anyway, the only request was to speed up the proceedings, and I
19 believe there was a prosecution. But it was a long time ago. I can't
20 recall all the details exactly, but I know in the meantime there was an
21 incident involving some members of the detachment and even some of
22 Dubocanin's men who were in the same group.
23 Q. Do you know if a criminal complaint was filed over this act of
24 forcible liberation of these people from prison?
25 A. I believe the public security station in Banja Luka filed a
1 complaint. General crime is within their purview, so that all criminal
2 complaints filed ex officio were written by the inspectors from the CID
3 of the public security station in Banja Luka.
4 Q. Could you turn the page and look at number 24, please.
5 Zeljko Mijatovic is mentioned here. Do you know if he was a
6 member of the special detachment?
7 A. I don't think Zeljko Mijatovic was a member of the special
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Some extra microphone is
10 on. We suddenly can't hear very well.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mladen Dragisic is mentioned below here. Do you remember him?
13 A. Mladen Dragisic was a member of the detachment, but he was thrown
14 out because of misconduct.
15 Q. Below we find a description of some incidents from 1993.
16 Could you turn the page that is marked in your copy as page 9.
17 You will see some names.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] ERN -- it's ERN 435430, page 10 in
19 e-court, in B/C/S.
20 Q. In your copy, it's page 9.
21 A. No, it's not marked 9.
22 Q. Perhaps I gave you the wrong copy. Look at the screen then.
23 It's a list of persons who were allegedly on the detachment.
24 Look at number 8, Zoran Mijic, also known as Cosko. Was he a member?
25 A. Never. As far as I know, he was on the military police.
1 Q. When you received these complaints from Banja Luka about
2 wrong-doing by members of the detachment, what kind of offences were
3 concerned? Were there any serious acts, or were they misdemeanours of
4 the kind mentioned here?
5 A. It's mainly the kind of acts that you saw mentioned in these
6 papers with rather poor descriptions and especially poor identifications.
7 It was usually about overstaying their welcome in a tavern, killing a
8 dog, improper behaviour, or indecent behaviour.
9 This list, this compilation that I commented on earlier, it was
10 actually done in 1993, as far as I can see, at the time of the greatest
11 discord between Vladimir Tutus and the chief of the centre. And this
12 paper was a tool in their political struggle and jockeying for position.
13 Even the SUP filed some criminal complaints for serious acts, and
14 prosecutions took place. And I don't really see a real reason for this
15 report covering two years. Reports are usually made for six months or
16 annually. And, indeed, I remember rumour had it that there was strife
17 among the leadership, and I believe this served their political purposes.
18 Q. During your stay in Kotor Varos, did you receive any complaints
19 concerning a more serious act committed by members of the detachment?
20 Have you ever been told about something like that? Do you know of any
21 such thing?
22 A. No, I heard no such reports.
23 Q. During your tenure in Kotor Varos, when you were at the public
24 security station or elsewhere, were you ever present during any incident
25 where people of Croat or Muslim ethnicity were abused? Did you ever
1 initiate something like that?
2 A. I was always strenuously against such things. And what I saw was
3 that paramilitary units brought these people into corridors, and there
4 was physical abuse. I even took one victim to Zupni Dvor, the parish
5 house, to be given aid.
6 Q. Did you ever inform Colonel Stevilovic or any of the commanding
7 officers of the Territorial Defence about such incidents, or whoever was
8 in charge over the perpetrators?
9 A. I didn't need to because they were. They were present. But
10 there were discussions with Stevilovic and Dubocanin, and their story was
11 that it was impossible to control these men, these Burcani [phoen] men,
12 who were armed and violent.
13 Q. In those few months that the detachment existed, were there any
14 complaints about the conduct of this platoon made up of professional
16 A. Well, the very fact that none of the members of that platoon were
17 ever taken off war assignments or thrown out shows that there were no
18 such complaints. All these people had graduated from the schools of --
19 for internal affairs, and they were law-abiding. And that's perhaps one
20 of the reasons why after the detachment was disbanded a decision was made
21 that only graduates from a proper school would be admitted into the
22 public security station, and that's why a secondary school for policemen
23 was established and specialised courses were instituted.
24 Q. Speaking of these violations and misdemeanours and offences by
25 members of the detachment, to whom did you report? Did you report to
1 Stojan Zupljanin? Was there any necessity to do that?
2 A. I kept him posted of all the problems, and I contacted mostly
3 Stevilovic and Stevan Markovic.
4 Stevilovic was the one who dealt with such things because he was
5 the one whose men those were. They belonged to the military.
6 Q. Which members of the detachment were usually responsible for such
8 A. Mainly soldiers. Members of the military.
9 Q. I wanted just a few clarifications of your prior testimony,
10 because I've looked at the transcript and not everything is quite clear.
11 When we were talking about members of the state security sector,
12 and I showed you that list, did it include people from the outpost in
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, can I
16 know what list we're talking about?
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to go quickly, but --
18 Could the witness be shown what I believe is 65 ter 25D2; tab 2
19 in the Zupljanin binder.
20 Q. Look at these two persons under numbers 24 and 25. In which
21 branch office did they work?
22 A. In Jajce.
23 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think perhaps they came to
1 Banja Luka too. But I believe they were in Jajce.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Were communications with Jajce disrupted? And when?
4 A. I don't know exactly when communications with Jajce were
5 disrupted. I know that before this I went to Sarajevo for perhaps a
6 month or two --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The extra microphone is on
8 again. We can't hear a thing.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you remember conflicts in Jajce, when it began?
11 A. I can't recall.
12 Q. In your interview you referred to the situation in the territory
13 covered by the CSB, the Security Services Centre, and the bulk of your
14 introductory part of your interview --
15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Page number, please.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: I'm just trying to find it. Just one moment.
17 [Interpretation] Page 11 on this interview. I'll read out the
18 question of the Prosecutor.
19 [In English] Let me just go back to point for a minute.
20 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Page number?
21 MR. KRGOVIC: Line 13. I don't know what version you have,
22 but --
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours --
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think we can help. I know the
1 Defence loaded this into e-court. If we could have the page up on the
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Yeah. I agree.
4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
5 MR. KRGOVIC: Just for a second, Your Honour. I'm just moving my
7 MS. KORNER: I think Mr. Krgovic needs to give the number.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: I am. Just one moment. I think ...
9 I know this is in e-court, but I'm just looking for a number.
10 [Interpretation] This is doc ID 2D10-1843. Page 11.
11 Q. I'm going to read the question and the answer and then I'm going
12 to ask you to...
13 [In English] I can just go back to point for a minute. I have a
14 couple follow-up questions. The first sentence which states, as we read:
15 All my orders conveyed orally as well as those I made forwarded by
16 dispatch must be carried out, call in, they are your law.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think, to make it clear, what's happening
18 there is what's being put to him is the minutes of the 6th of May
20 MR. KRGOVIC: I agree, so ...
21 Q. [Interpretation] And --
22 A. I don't have it here.
23 Q. All right. Well, you need to listen to the interpretation in the
24 Serbian because we don't have it in the Serbian.
25 And then the Prosecutor asked you if this is true, if these
1 orders and instructions issued by Mr. Zupljanin, either orally or in
2 writing, were respected. And I think you said, I think not.
3 And then I'm reading.
4 Then you said that actually the opposite was done, and you gave
5 examples here of Srbac, Prnjavor, and some other municipalities, which
6 ignored Mr. Zupljanin.
7 Are you able to tell us first, when you say "areas," which other
8 areas were you thinking of when you mentioned this?
9 A. In conversations with operatives, my colleagues, and also I
10 noticed personally, that -- the similar situation was in the areas of
11 Prijedor, Kljuc, Sanski Most, Kotor Varos, that he was not heeded nor
12 could he do anything much in Jajce. For example, over there -- there was
13 a situation over there -- over all where we had no control whatsoever.
14 Q. Are you able to tell us, what were your sources of information?
15 If you're able to tell us. How did you know this?
16 A. Mostly from our operatives. I got in touch mostly -- or the most
17 information that I had, and I most frequently met with Predrag Radic,
18 with his typist, and in informal conversations we commented on the
19 situation, and that is what they said about those areas. And I
20 personally had information. I saw and I heard from some of our members
21 that, for example, Simo Drljaca was ignoring Banja Luka, and so on.
22 These were some of their observations.
23 Also, Mile Radulovic said that the situation was out of control
24 in those municipalities, that -- and this is the impression that I had,
25 that there were local people who preferred to rule their own small areas
1 rather than be members of some team, generally speaking.
2 Q. I would like to show you a document now.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness
4 Exhibit P00624.
5 Q. This is in tab 28 in your binder.
6 This is a report on the work of the Banja Luka Security Services
7 Centre from the 4th of April until the 31st of December, 1992.
8 A. December. The 31st of December.
9 Q. Can you look at page 24 in your copy. Actually, it's page 25 in
10 the Serbian version, and page ... I think it's page 25 in the English
11 version. Let me just check that.
12 Yes, that is the correct page.
13 And there is a remark here. I'm going to read from the report.
14 "The inefficacy, lack of professionalism, and negligence in the
15 work of a number of public security stations is largely a result of the
16 functional and operational independence of a number of SJBs from the
17 centre, which has greatly undermined the overall unity and social role of
18 the security organs and services. At the same time, some of these SJBs
19 linked their activity to local politics and local political leaders,
20 neglecting their legal obligations and authority."
21 Well, in your copy could you please turn to the next page, that
22 is, page 25 in your copy. And in e-court it's the same page in the
23 English version. Second paragraph, which starts:
24 "A number of SJBs ignored the centre's requests for information
25 on certain issues and failed to react promptly to certain requests by the
1 centre, thus jeopardizing the unity of the security organs and services
2 and their ability to operate as a single security system."
3 Sir, when you talked about the situation in certain stations and
4 certain municipalities, certain public security stations, were there
5 examples like the one that I have just read to you? Was that the
6 practice in 1992?
7 A. Yes, this is exactly what I said. There were instances of this
8 desire, which I mentioned before, for everyone to be a mini-sultan, and
9 they evaded their legal obligations in relation to the centre. This is
10 what people were saying, that they were actually doing the opposite of
11 what they were ordered to do in order to prove their superiority or
12 independence, in a way.
13 Q. Let me go back to the events in Kotor Varos.
14 Are you able to tell me if these people that you negotiated with,
15 did you issue them any free movement pass during your stay in
16 Kotor Varos?
17 A. Well, during these trainings such passes were issued to persons
18 who needed to establish some sort of contact.
19 As far as I can remember, I provided such a pass to the priest
20 and some other persons. I cannot remember the exact instances, but it
21 was a kind of uniform pass that was printed by the local authority.
22 Q. And the local authorities, did they respect these passes or were
23 there any problems in taking them into account?
24 A. Well, there were incidents. It was a problem with informing
25 people out in the field. It's very difficult to transmit all the
1 decisions in a timely manner, especially in a situation where there are
2 groups that are not within the system, that are operating independently
3 or are operating through some superior command. So they don't have all
4 the information at the local level that they require.
5 Q. Responding to my question yesterday, you talked about some
6 tensions between members of the unit and individual police units in
7 Banja Luka and other persons. Were there any instances of this kind of
8 animosity in Kotor Varos among the units, specifically between the
9 special detachment and the local authorities? Were there such things
10 happening among the Serbs?
11 A. Well, there is a standard thing that there is a kind of jealousy
12 or sensitivity amongst certain units and organs and that everybody wants
13 to be in charge. And then frequently there would be some justified and
14 unjustified conflicts breaking out among the members. Sometimes you
15 would see, for example, a member of Dubocanin's unit mobilising a member
16 of the special detachment and ordering him to go with him without
17 previously consulting the detachment command. There were things like
18 that constantly, this sort of back and forth happening.
19 There were also some negative events or instances being ascribed
20 to one another. These things happened on both sides.
21 Q. The Prosecutor asked you in their interview with you if you know
22 of any events. I'm asking you about an alleged incident referred to in
23 the indictment which happened in June 1992.
24 Do you recall speaking with the Prosecutor about that?
25 A. Well, I did speak with the Prosecutor. I don't know about the
1 information which they referred to. They talked about actions. I don't
2 know if there was an action at the local level. I do know that there
3 were conflicts among members of ours. I don't know if there were any
4 incidents in that period or not. What I do know is that it wasn't all
5 regular as far as our unit members were concerned. And others were
6 saying that they had been betrayed at the front. If one of ours was
7 wounded, then they would say it's the fault of these other guys, and it
8 was the other way that happened.
9 I know that in that period there were many fighters who got
10 killed or were wounded both in our ranks and theirs. There was sniper
11 activity on a daily basis from the opposite side. So frequently citizens
12 and military personnel, soldiers, and policemen were being wounded or
14 Q. I did ask you, but this was not noticed -- noted. I asked you
15 about the incident in front of the medical centre. This is not in the
16 transcript, so could you please repeat your answer again.
17 At the time, at the point in time when you were asked by the
18 Prosecutor, did you know anything about this incident in front of the
19 medical centre or around it? And do you have any information about the
20 participation of any special detachment unit in this particular incident?
21 A. I said in this period that I was not there. I don't know about
22 the incident that happened on the 24th or something. I really don't know
23 anything about that incident. I said that I would come from time to
24 time, spend ten days there. I know that on the 29th there was a lot of
25 casualties. Generally there were high casualties on our side in that
1 period. I don't know. I saw that film. All of it is accurate. And
2 this gave rise to tensions between the units, because members of our unit
3 felt that they had been betrayed in that situation and that not
4 everything was done to pull these men out. After that, there had to be
5 negotiations and there had to be exchanges of dead bodies and all of
6 that, and that was a bit of a problem of a psychological nature.
7 Q. After these events in Kotor Varos, did you discuss them with any
8 priest? Or did you get any information from them about that?
9 A. Yes. I said to the investigators that I had contacts with
10 priests and I wanted to discuss the events with them too, because they
11 were immediately involved, and I had contacts with them. I wanted to
12 remind myself how it all went, and that's why I spoke to Mr. Visatiski.
13 And I even went to see Bishop Komarica. And at that time I also met that
14 person about whom I said that I took him to the parsonage to wash. He
15 now lives in Germany. We had an informal conversation, and he said to me
16 that after that first beating he didn't have any problems anymore,
17 because while he was brought in the TO members beat him up.
18 And I spoke to the priests about the events there. I had the
19 opportunity to read a book about the events written by one of those
20 priests. It was basically an exchange of memories.
21 Q. Before you gave the interview and when you were answering the
22 questions about carrying out the orders and instructions of Mr. Zupljanin
23 and the composition of the special detachment and Dubocanin, did you know
24 that Mr. Zupljanin had been accused?
25 A. No. I thought that the reason for the conversation was
1 Mr. Brdjanin's acts. That's what -- that was my conclusion from the
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know that it isn't
4 time for the break yet, but I would still ask to break now so I could get
5 some time to skim through my notes. I may not have any further questions
6 for the witness, but I need some five minutes or so to make sure.
7 JUDGE HALL: Should we take the usual 20-minute break or come
8 back at the standard time of quarter of 11.00?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If possible, I would prefer 10.45
10 because I need to review some documents.
11 I don't think I'll have any more questions, but I do want to make
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we return at 10.45.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE HALL: I'm sorry, could we go into closed session, please.
16 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, thank you for time given to me for
11 the break. I don't have any further questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
13 Mr. Cvijetic.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Cross examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I'm going to deal with some things you said at the outset of your
20 And I'll go into the status of the State Security Service where
21 you worked, in terms of hierarchy and the system of communications and
23 As far as I understood, your service in Banja Luka had a
24 horizontal line of subordination in place within the centre and a
25 vertical line, according to the lines of work towards the Secretariat of
1 the Interior of the republic. That is, to be more precise, up to the
2 under-secretary for state security in Sarajevo.
3 Am I right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But you said that there was also a line towards the
6 Federal Secretariat of the Interior of the Yugoslavia, and, to be more
7 precise, the 4th Administration.
8 Did I understand you correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We're obviously talking about the pre-war period because we are
11 saying the word "secretariats"; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. However, when the war broke out, this vertical line along the
14 line of work that led to Sarajevo was severed; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The horizontal line towards the CSB chief in Banja Luka remained
17 in place; is that so?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The Milos Group still had that line towards the Yugoslav bodies
20 in place. I think you said that one went towards the JNA probably and
21 the other towards the Federal Secretariat of the Interior. Am I right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When the Ministry of Interior of the RS was established, for
24 objective reasons the vertical line towards the headquarters of the newly
25 established ministry did not exist initially, did it?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. These objective reasons have two aspects: Firstly, there was a
3 physical interruption of road communication [as interpreted] because the
4 Muslim and Croat forces cut through the corridor; and the other was the
5 disruption of telecommunications lines. Isn't that right?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. The precondition for the re-establishment of this vertical line,
8 or the preconditions, were in place only as of sometime in 1992; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'm going to direct you to a document shown to you by
11 Mr. Krgovic. The number is P1502. And let us stay at page 1.
12 In your binder, it's tab 24.
13 Take a look at it to remind yourself of its contents. You've
14 already commented on this report.
15 Please focus on paragraph 1.
16 A. "In order to fully implement" --
17 Q. You don't have to read it out loud. Just take a look at it.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then the third paragraph.
20 A. All right.
21 Q. Sir, I don't remember if you said so already -- actually, you
22 did. You said when the unit was disbanded and when people were taken off
23 the payroll. But did you know at the time that it was done pursuant to a
24 decision of the Ministry of the Interior?
25 A. No.
1 Q. But did you hear of the decision to disband the unit?
2 A. I heard of the decision to disband the unit at the level of the
3 government or the Presidency or -- that it was a decision of the Assembly
4 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what we were told.
5 Q. But you can tell from this report now who it was, actually, who
6 took that decision; right?
7 A. Yes. I can see it was the minister's decision.
8 Q. It says up there that the minister adopted the decision on the
9 27th of July.
10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Can we get the -- sorry to
11 interrupt, Mr. -- can I assist, Mr. Cvijetic, because he may not have
12 seen it, I suddenly realise that neither the Defence nor us had put in
13 the minister's decision so I've added it, so it's available if
14 Mr. Cvijetic wants to show it to the witness.
15 It's at our new tab 27A. And it's up to you, Mr. Cvijetic. But
16 if you want to show him the decision, it is available.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's a document that
18 I had announced already, but it seems that I cannot get there yet.
19 I want to show it to the witness. Ms. Korner anticipated it
21 Q. In this paragraph we read that the minister, at a meeting held on
22 6 August 1992, he insisted on this.
23 Can you see that in paragraph 3?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness the
1 minister's order. And I believe that Ms. Korner was wrong after all
2 because it's already an exhibit. The number is 1D176.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's quite -- I know it's an exhibit,
4 but nobody put it on their list, I thought. But I hadn't appreciated or
5 I'd forgotten that Mr. Cvijetic had mentioned two documents, so I'm sorry
6 for interrupting and I needn't have bothered to add it to our list.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You have the decision on the screen. I can also give you a hard
9 copy. It's the second document at that tab. It may be easier for you to
10 read. Please focus on paragraph 4.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is what we're talking about. The minister ordered the
13 disbandment of all special units.
14 It is also mentioned further down that a single unit of that
15 kind, a special unit at brigade or detachment level, be formed for the
16 entire ministry; also, that it would be manned in the way mentioned here,
17 by way of vacancy announcements. Can you see that?
18 A. You mean here?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When there was the discussion about the disbandment of your unit,
22 did you hear that a single unit of the ministry headquarters was to be
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And my last question: Do you know that under the Law on
1 Internal Affairs the exclusive right to establish such units is with the
2 minister himself?
3 A. Well, basically, the minister takes all personnel-related
4 decisions and signs all -- signs all of them. It was, indeed, the case
5 that the under-secretary for state security; that is, the highest in
6 rank, signs all decisions on appointment, and so did the minister
7 probably. That's how it was under the rules.
8 Q. My question was more specific than that, though:
9 Did you know that the -- that under the law only the minister
10 could set up special units of the MUP, that it was his exclusive right?
11 A. Yes, that's what we were told. And basically that is a rule,
12 that the highest ranking, the most senior officer decides about such
14 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no more questions.
15 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner.
16 MS. KORNER: I did ask Mr. Cvijetic whether one hour, "up to one
17 hour," meant five minutes or 45 minutes. I see it meant five.
18 If Your Honours would give me one moment.
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:
20 Q. Sir, you were a member of the special police between May and
21 August of 1992; is that right?
22 A. I said as much in my interview, that I was liaison officer.
23 Which means that some tasks were in my remit from about May until
24 mid-year. And I did some work of that kind even later. But as of
25 mid-July the detachment didn't really function as a unit for some
1 personnel problems.
2 Q. Right. Now, let's set some ground rules, shall we?
3 Just, please, answer the question that I ask you. I did not ask
4 you what position you were in, in the special police. I'm going come
5 back to that. I simply asked whether you were a member of the special
6 police between May and August of 1992.
7 A. [In English] Yes.
8 Q. Yes, well, I know you speak English, but I'm afraid you better
9 stick to your own language because it's going to confuse everybody
11 But what I'm trying to explain to you, sir, is that unless you
12 answer my questions shortly and only answer the questions I ask, this
13 will take much longer.
14 Do you appreciate that?
15 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
16 Q. All right. As I say, I'm going to come back to your actual
17 position later.
18 Do I take it from what you say that you do not consider that you
19 have been guilty of any kind of criminal offence whilst you were a member
20 of the special police?
21 A. Could you please repeat this question.
22 Q. Yes. You do not, as I understand your evidence, consider that
23 during the time you were in the special police you committed any kind of
24 criminal offence?
25 A. That is correct. I do not consider that I did.
1 Q. Do you consider that other members of the Banja Luka special
2 police committed criminal offences?
3 A. Some did.
4 Q. All right. Are you ashamed at all of your actions during the
5 period that you were with the special police?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You feel there is nothing that you did that in any way you should
8 feel ashamed of?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So there is no reason at all why you would not include in your CV
11 of your time with the police that period you spent in the special police?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Well, I want to come back to that a little later.
14 But I want to go back to how you first came to give a statement, if we
15 can put it that way, to the Defence in this case.
16 You told us you were first approached by the Defence -- and let
17 me just find the page where you dealt with that. Just a moment. Sorry.
18 This is at page 25396. You told us you were approached by
19 Mr. Bojnovic towards the end of last year; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You knew Mr. Bojnovic as an ex-member, did you not, of the
22 CSB Banja Luka?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now employed as an investigator for the Zupljanin Defence.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Before that, had you had any -- any personal contact with
2 Mr. Zupljanin by telephone from the Detention Unit?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you sure about that?
5 A. I contacted him only once.
6 Q. And when did you do that --
7 A. Much later.
8 Q. Right. And when did you do that --
9 A. I can't remember precisely, but I had a brief conversation with
10 him concerning something I needed. I never discussed his case.
11 Q. All right. Let's start this again.
12 Did you have this contact, when you made contact with
13 Mr. Zupljanin, before or after you had a conversation with Mr. Bojnovic?
14 A. After my encounter with Mr. Bojnovic. I believe it was when one
15 of those people from outside were there. I talked to him. Perhaps it
16 was even Mr. Krgovic. I asked if he could be contacted concerning a case
17 of mine, and I spoke to him briefly.
18 Q. I'm sorry. You're having a meeting with Mr. Krgovic to discuss
19 your evidence; is that right?
20 A. No. Yes, we were discussing that, but on that occasion I
21 inquired if it would be possible to contact Mr. Zupljanin concerning a
22 case I was handling.
23 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand that. What case? And why would
24 you be contacting Mr. Zupljanin who's been in custody for the last, I
25 think two years?
1 A. Could we move into private session, please?
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 25552-25553 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. Right. Now let's go back to what you've just said.
10 You may have been present "when somebody called him or he called
11 someone, because he does make a lot of telephone calls." Right.
12 Now, with whom were you present when Mr. Zupljanin rang that
13 person up?
14 A. Well, I can't remember now. It was perhaps in a bar when
15 somebody called him, or he said that somebody had called him, something
16 of the sort. But, in any case, I did not have any discussions with
17 Mr. Zupljanin about this case, here.
18 Q. Yes. Or so you say. Let's stick to this other person that you
19 were in a bar with.
20 So Zupljanin rang him, did he, on his mobile phone?
21 A. Yes. Probably the mobile phone. What else?
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... right. Well, now, think
23 hard, sir.
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 Q. Who was that person?
1 A. If I could remember now. One of the people who know him. I
2 could not give any names now, but one of the people from his political
3 party. I can't recall.
4 Q. Well, what was his political party?
5 A. I think he was in the SDS.
6 Q. Well, fine, that -- that -- quite. There comes --
7 A. I mean, I have no proof of that, but I suppose so because at the
8 time when he was appointed to his position, it was a requirement, of
9 sorts, to be a member of the Serbian Democratic Party. So that's why I
10 make that assumption.
11 Q. Right. So are you saying it was a requirement for the chief of
12 the CSB to be a member of the SDS, to get support from the SDS?
13 A. Well, for the most part, in all countries, the ruling parties
14 tend to appoint their own people.
15 Q. Well, I'm not interested in most countries. Let's stick very
16 much, please, to the Republika Srpska.
17 Was Mr. Zupljanin, who you knew well, a member of the SDS?
18 A. [No interpretation]
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's not a question,
20 Your Honour. First off, told Mr. Zupljanin, who know him well, was a
21 member of the party, so ...
22 MS. KORNER: No, no, he's already said he knows him well.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: He didn't say that.
24 MS. KORNER: All right.
25 Q. Sir, do you know Zupljanin well, having worked at the CSB for
1 many, many years with him?
2 A. Yes, I know him.
3 Q. No. The question was: Do you know him well? Just to keep
4 Mr. Krgovic happy.
5 A. Well, what can I tell you? Knowing someone well is a tricky
6 matter. I know him as the chief of the centre. I know him from around
7 town. I've known him for many years. I know he graduated from the law
8 school, and logically I know him. But to have been intimate with him, to
9 have sat over coffee together, we didn't do that.
10 Q. You never had a coffee with him?
11 A. I may have had coffee with him on some occasion, but we didn't
12 really socialise or were friends. We were not close.
13 Q. All right --
14 A. But I know him rather well as a man.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, knowing him rather well as a man and knowing him
16 as a police officer, was he a member of the SDS?
17 A. Well, I've said already that I supposed that he could have been a
18 member of the S [as interpreted], but I can't be sure. Because I was not
19 a member of any party myself. And we who were outside of political
20 parties, we thought that it might be a pre-condition for promotion,
21 although it maybe wasn't. It's just something I supposed. I cannot
22 really bet my house that he was.
23 Q. All right. Well, did he ever say to you during the course of
24 your employment, "I'm just off to a meeting of the SDS"?
25 A. I was not in a position to be with him when he would have said a
1 thing like that because he was the chief, and I was an operative working
2 in the field. I would have seen him only in passing, and he had no
3 obligation to keep me posted on everything. It would have been too much
4 to expect.
5 Q. All right. I want to go back, please, to the question of phone
6 calls from Mr. Zupljanin to people when you were present.
7 Roughly how many times did that happen?
8 A. I think it happened once. But somebody also mentioned that he
9 had a telephone call from him in my presence. I think somebody mentioned
10 something like that. Perhaps a close associate of his. I cannot claim
11 with any certainty, but I know that somebody did mention it.
12 Q. Look, you say perhaps a close associate of him. You clearly do
13 know who this was, sir. Please, would you tell the Court the name of
14 this person.
15 And we can go into private session if you'd prefer to say it in
16 private session.
17 A. All right.
18 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Did Mr. Zupljanin ever call Mr. Radulovic to your knowledge?
7 A. I wouldn't know that. But I know that Radulovic came to see me
8 once --
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 A. -- when there was still no mention that Mr. Zupljanin would be
11 arrested, and he told me that he should make contact with Mr. Zupljanin
12 for the purpose of his Defence or preparation or something, and so he
13 asked me if I knew his, that is to say, Mr. Zupljanin's, whereabouts,
14 whether I was in touch with him, and I said I don't know. I had no
15 contact with him. And on that occasion he came across as somebody who
16 was looking for information for Mr. Zupljanin's purposes. That was a
17 brief conversation, and I know Mr. Radulovic too.
18 Q. All right. Sir, I just want you to concentrate one last time on
19 this question: Have you discussed with Mr. Zupljanin the evidence that
20 you were going to give in this case about the special police?
21 A. I don't know that I discussed that. I think I informed
22 Mr. Krgovic of this, and he is the one who told him.
23 Q. I'm sorry. This may be a question of translation. It's a very
24 simple question, and your answer doesn't make much sense.
25 My question was: Have you discussed with Mr. Zupljanin over the
1 telephone the evidence that you were going to give in this case about the
2 special police?
3 And the answer, as translated, came: I don't know that I
4 discussed it.
5 The answer is either "Yes, I did discuss it" or "No, I did not."
6 A. Well, I can't say with any certainty whether it was Mr. Krgovic
7 who told him or it was me. But the discussion at that moment was whether
8 I would accept to testify before this Court, and I told then Mr. Krgovic
9 that I would testify. Whether he passed that on to him or not, I don't
10 know really.
11 Q. Isn't it the case that Mr. Zupljanin got in touch with you before
12 you saw Mr. Krgovic and asked if you'd be prepared to give evidence for
13 the Defence?
14 A. I cannot confirm that.
15 Q. Well --
16 A. I mean, really. Take my word for it, I really don't keep records
17 or notes of that kind. It was a spontaneous contact, as it turned out,
18 with this colleague from the police force who asked me, and that was
19 followed by another contact when Mr. Krgovic came too. Now, how exactly
20 I said it, when, I can't recall. And I don't know who in -- which of the
21 two informed Mr. Zupljanin of my decision.
22 Q. All right. I'm not going to --
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's a matter of
24 interpretation. Maybe you should ask him whether he spoke to
25 Mr. Zupljanin over the telephone personally.
1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, I didn't
2 realise that it was unclear --
3 THE COURT REPORTER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.
5 I didn't realise that the question "Did you speak to
6 Mr. Zupljanin about the --" sorry, I'll repeat the question, "that
7 Mr. Zupljanin got in touch with you before you saw Mr. Krgovic and asked
8 if you'd be prepared to give evidence for the Defence" could be
9 misinterpreted, but I'll try.
10 Did you speak over the telephone to Mr. Zupljanin and in this
11 conversation he personally asked you to give evidence for the Defence?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is it your evidence, then, that Mr. Bojnovic said to you that
14 Mr. Zupljanin wants you to give evidence for the Defence?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Right. And did Mr. Bojnovic explain to you that what
17 Mr. Zupljanin wanted you to say was that, in effect, he had absolutely no
18 responsibility for the actions of the CSB special police?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did he - Mr. Bojnovic or anybody else - tell you that you should
21 say that the special police, to all intents and purposes, came under the
22 authority and control of Colonel Stevilovic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Because in neither your evidence --
25 MS. KORNER: I think, okay, we better perhaps go into private
1 session, Your Honours, for what I'm going to put next.
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 25562-25566 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you were going to ask me about
12 my movements ...
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... no, I'm going to ask
14 you where --
15 A. [No interpretation]
16 Q. -- where you did your military service.
17 A. I disagree, because the questions have to do with my career.
18 Q. Correct. Where did you do your military service? Did you do
19 your military service in Banja Luka?
20 A. No. And never before the war had I been in any military barracks
21 in Banja Luka. I served in Bileca. After that, I was transferred to
22 Pancevo and after that to Titovo Uzice. That's where I did my military
23 service. And if you were to ask me about the way the barracks in Pancevo
24 were run, I wouldn't be able to tell you. I wouldn't be able to tell you
25 the name. I only know that it was a barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia.
1 And when somebody mentioned to me a barracks in Banja Luka, I know only
2 that it's in Banja Luka.
3 Q. All right. Okay. So you didn't know that it was
4 5th Krajina Corps. You didn't know it was 1st Krajina Corps. Had you
5 ever heard of General Talic?
6 A. Yes, I heard of General Talic. And I had contacts with him as a
7 liaison officer.
8 Q. Right. Now, are you saying in your contacts with General Talic
9 you never appreciated that Colonel Stevilovic was the chief of
10 intelligence or security?
11 A. I never had conversations about other people's positions. I know
12 that there was talk that he was an intelligence officer. But whether he
13 was chief or deputy chief or whatever, that was unimportant to me. And I
14 never spoke about personnel-related matters with General Talic. I only
15 spoke about contacts with UN personnel, and I was present at times and
16 absent at other times. And I'm unable to say anything special about him.
17 I met him at Stara Gradiska where the command post was a couple of times.
18 Q. You have - I take it, then, as you say you're not interested in
19 military - no idea of what the functions of an intelligence officer, even
20 one as senior as Colonel Stevilovic, is, or are?
21 A. Well, this question is really totally unrelated. If I was state
22 security staff, then I know what it means when somebody is an
23 intelligence officer. The more so since in Pancevo I did a special --
24 specialisation course. And I know that an intelligence officer,
25 according to military rules, outranks a regular officer even if the
1 latter has a higher rank.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 A. That's what I know. At least that's how things were seen in
4 state security.
5 Q. You see, because you're saying, as I understand it, that
6 Colonel Stevilovic, the chief of intelligence/security for the
7 1st Krajina Corps, in fact, was in direct command and control of the
8 whole of the Kotor Varos military operation. That's what you're
9 suggesting, isn't it?
10 A. I suppose that he was the main co-ordinator. I know that when he
11 was killed people were saying that the greatest pity was that his
12 notebook had gone missing, where he had all the plans not only for
13 Kotor Varos but beyond. So he was the man with the plans of activities.
14 And the problem was that his bag with documents and maps was lost when he
15 got killed.
16 Q. You see, let me make this quite clear to you, sir, in case you
17 hadn't gathered it already: I'm suggesting that what you have told this
18 Court is simply not true, that, in effect, there was a combined
19 military/police operation in Kotor Varos.
20 Do you agree there was a combined military/police operation in
21 Kotor Varos?
22 A. I disagree. Firstly, you are obviously unfamiliar with our laws
23 and regulations and also with military rules. Under those laws and
24 rules, when a military operation is conducted everybody present must be
25 resubordinated to the military. I'm an infantry officer in the army, and
1 if I have learned anything, this is it.
2 So whoever took part in any action not only in Kotor Varos but
3 also in the corridor was resubordinated to the military command. It was
4 unthinkable that somebody would take any action that was not ordered to
5 him by military commander. That is perfectly clear. And I believe that
6 it must be the same in all armies of the world. How -- can you imagine
7 that somebody conducts a military operation and that somebody of a lower
8 rank decides about the use of personnel and materiel? It would be
9 impossible to do.
10 Q. Yes. First of all, apart from your military service --
11 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, it seems that this is going to be --
12 take some time to resolve, so we may as well take the break --
13 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes --
14 JUDGE HALL: -- now and return in 20 minutes.
15 So we go into closed session.
16 [Closed session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. Sir, I'm not going to deal with your last answer at this stage
4 because I'm going to come back to the whole question of the relationship
5 between the military and the special police later.
6 Can I just repeat, however, please, sir, that it would be much
7 faster if you would simply answer the question I ask as shortly as
8 possible. And can I point out to you that Mr. Krgovic has another
9 opportunity to ask you further questions when I have finished.
10 Now, I want -- before I go back to the topic that I started on,
11 namely, your meetings with the Defence, can we deal with Mr. Markovic.
12 MS. KORNER: Can we have on the screen, please, P1077.
13 Your Honours, it wasn't on my list, but Mr. Krgovic doesn't
14 object to me showing this. It's one of the charts.
15 And it's in the book that Your Honours have.
16 Is there a problem? It seems to be taking a long time to load.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 MS. KORNER: And we can probably put it in Sanction if it's a
19 real problem.
20 Now what's going on? All right. Do you want us to put it in
22 All right. I understand, Your Honours, there is a problem.
23 Can we put this in Sanction? Thanks.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. KORNER: All right. That seems to be a problem as well.
1 This document obviously causes huge problems all round.
2 Can we try putting it on the ELMO? Perhaps that's the easiest.
3 The old-fashioned way always was the best: Give the witness a
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MS. KORNER: Do Your Honours have any photo -- picture on the
7 screen? Does anybody have anything? Does anybody have a picture on the
8 screen? No. That's what I thought.
9 What's wrong with the ELMO now?
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. KORNER: All right. I gather it doesn't seem the ELMO is
14 working as well. We seem to have come to a total standstill. Can I -- I
15 think the best thing is - the witness can see it, anyhow - rather than
16 waste any more time on this, could the witness just be handed the
18 Q. What you're looking at, sir - is that right? - is a chart of the
19 positions and personnel within the CSB Banja Luka in 1992. Can you
20 confirm that?
21 A. Just a minute.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Is there a copy available for the interpreters?
23 MS. KORNER: No. Because I thought it was going to come up on
24 the screen. Oh, lord.
25 Your Honours, I'm -- we have a request -- well, we seem to have
1 got something up on one of the screens. Can you put that ... I think if
2 we try and go back to Sanction that we should have that so everybody can
3 see it.
4 Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, we -- success; we have a document.
5 Q. All right. Can you confirm, please --
6 MS. KORNER: Can we just bring the document down slightly. No,
7 down. Thank you. And for some reason it's in black and white in
8 e-court, which I don't quite understand, but never mind.
9 Q. That shows Stojan Zupljanin as chief of the CSB and then his
10 secretary, Ms. -- Mrs. Komljenovic. Is that correct, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you know his secretary, Mrs. Komljenovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then we see that Mr. Jahic was the deputy chief until he was
15 replaced by Djuro Bulic; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then can we see, please, the department for police affairs.
18 MS. KORNER: Can we bring that up, please.
19 Q. Mr. Markovic; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So Mr. Markovic was, in effect, the third-most high-ranking
22 officer, police officer, in the CSB Banja Luka, wasn't he?
23 A. Well, he is in the third line. All these four positions below
24 are on an equal footing. Stevan Markovic, Milorad Djuric, Drago Rakovic
25 are all chiefs of sections.
1 Q. Yes. But in --
2 A. And that's the third wrung on the ladder.
3 Q. Yes --
4 A. From the top.
5 Q. Yes, I agree. But of the four, as it were, sections on that
6 line, it was the department for police affairs which was the most
7 important and, indeed, the largest, wasn't it?
8 A. Well, I don't know exactly anymore. I believe it had the most
9 policemen. But as far as importance is concerned, the criminal
10 investigation police section was equally important. They dealt with the
11 important affairs. I believe the two sections were equal in
13 Q. All right.
14 A. With the distinction that these four men were on an equal footing
15 in the collegium, Markovic and Djuric and Dukic and Spahic and
16 Pageltija [phoen] and Mirko Bojic and Bojnovic [as interpreted]. When
17 you convene a session of the collegium, they sat around a round table and
18 spoke to each other as equals. They were all members of the collegium,
19 including Drago Rakovic.
20 Q. But the point - it's a very small and simple point I want to
21 make, sir - is that to describe Mr. Markovic as the assistance to
22 Colonel Stevilovic is a complete misdescription of his actual position,
23 isn't it?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. No, you've given us the explanation.
1 Thank you very much. That's all I want to ask you about that.
2 MS. KORNER: Can I have that --
3 Q. I want to go back, please, to where it seems a long time ago I
4 started off, and that's your meetings with the Defence. And it's been
5 pointed out to me that I may not have established exactly when was your
6 last phone call with Mr. Zupljanin.
7 When was the last time you spoke personally to Mr. Zupljanin on
8 the phone?
9 A. Well, the last time when I personally spoke to him on the phone,
10 it was in January or February.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... of this year?
12 A. This year.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. I mean, I can't be precise, but at the moment when I met with
15 Mr. Krgovic, I know it was all in this year or the end of last year, all
16 these talks with the Defence team. First there was Bojic, then I met
17 with Krgovic, and then I had another two meetings, discussions, about how
18 I would be appearing and such.
19 Q. And can we take it that there appear to have been a number of
20 meetings, at least three - four, in fact - one with Bojic and three with
21 Mr. Krgovic?
22 A. Two with Mr. Krgovic, I think. And with Bojic, the last time we
23 typed up this paper that we refused discussions with the OTP. That's a
24 statement I gave with him.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first there was -- a moment
1 ago you said:
2 "First there was Bojic, then I met with Mr. Krgovic, and then I
3 had another two meetings, discussions, about how I would be appearing and
5 So those further two meetings, were those with Mr. Krgovic or
6 Mr. Aleksic?
7 A. I don't know who Aleksic is.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 25578-25582 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mrs. Korner, are you still on the questions who
6 the witness met with before testifying? Or are you going to ...
7 MS. KORNER: I'm going to another subject, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Then I would like to clarify something first.
9 In the -- in the transcript, the name of the investigator that
10 was an ex-colleague from Banja Luka CSB was Bojanovic, wasn't it?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bojinovic.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Bojinovic. Okay. I saw the name on the chart.
13 But then at page 54:16, 54:19, 21, and 25, I think that same man
14 suddenly becomes Bojic. And the confusion starts probably at 53:18,
15 where Bojinovic and Bojic are both mentioned. But I think that at
16 forty -- at 54:16, 19, 21, and 25 it should be Bojanovic. We are there
17 still dealing with the person the witness met with on the -- as
18 investigator on the Krgovic -- on Zupljanin's team; right?
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll let the witness answer, but --
20 because -- but I believe that Mr. Bojic also at some stage was the
21 investigator for the Defence. It's unfortunate that the two have very
22 similar names, so it may be that the witness --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: And the two were -- and the two were colleagues
24 in Banja Luka CSB then.
25 Okay. Mr. Witness, could you answer that? Were Mr. Bojinovic
1 and Mr. Bojic both investigators for the Zupljanin team you met?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of any Bojic as a
3 member of the team. I know that he was an employee of the CSB, but I
4 never had any contact with him.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: So then I suppose we should correct the
6 transcript. Thank you.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes.
8 Q. So, sir, throughout you've been referring to Mr. Bojinovic, not
9 Mr. Bojic; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 25586-25595 redacted. Private session.
3 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, it's obviously not possible to
8 produce overnight a full B/C/S transcript of this interview. And, as I
9 say, it's proving a negative. In other words, as I've put on a number of
10 occasions: You did not say you were a member of the special police.
11 Now, of course, we are dependant on the English translation. But
12 the point that I want to make is, for example, can I take a very short
13 example, which is one of the ones I will get translated: He's asked at
14 page 19 of the interview about Ljuban Ecim.
15 "Did you know him personally?
17 "How did you know him? Did he ever come from the police or
18 military background?
19 "The police. He was with the police background, but he finished
20 reserve officers' school in Zadar.
21 "Did you -- so as a police officer, did you ever work with
24 At that stage, it's fair to say, a break then took place. But at
25 no stage did he ever say, as one might expect him, we suggest, to say:
1 Yes, I worked with him in the special police. And then we go on to he's
2 asked a number of questions about what happened in Kotor Varos, and
3 throughout, although he talks about the special police, he never actually
4 says: I was a member.
5 Now, as I say, it's clearly import-- it's either that the Defence
6 agree it, which is a way of doing it. We can't force them to, unless
7 Your Honours order it, and I don't imagine Your Honours --
8 JUDGE HALL: Which we don't propose to. Indeed Mr. Krgovic's
9 response to your invitation was, to my mind, quite predictable.
10 MS. KORNER: Yes. I know. But Your Honours could actually make
11 an order. I mean, Mr. Krgovic can read the English.
12 Failing that, all we can do is I can put various portions to him,
13 which we can get translated this afternoon -- translated. I'm sorry, I'm
14 not going -- talking about translated. We'll actually get somebody to
15 type up the original -- from the tape, the original language, what he
16 says. And deal with selected portions.
17 JUDGE HALL: It seems to me that there is no ideal solution to
18 this problem. Because in addition to the usual argument which would
19 exist if we weren't dealing with the translation issue, as you have
20 indicated, of proving that -- how come given the opportunity you didn't
21 say this, which is really the foundation of an argument, that the --
22 the -- it may be that the -- in the interests of time, that the only
23 practical way is, as you indicated earlier, you might be inviting the
24 Chamber to do, to admit the previous transcript. And that then being an
25 exhibit, you would have a foundation on which to construct an argument.
1 Secondly, as a supplement to this, the -- what you have just
2 indicated, apart from the general attack which you would wish to put
3 yourself in a position to make on his testimony, if there are specific
4 instances in which I expect that you would argue, that he had the
5 opportunity to volunteer this, if that could be translated so that
6 when -- if the witness is taxed with these specific incidents when he
7 returns tomorrow, and, as he has indicated, it may be a question of a
8 translation issue, then he would have the opportunity to seek to clarify
10 It seems to me that that is the most practical and efficient way
11 time-wise in terms of dealing with it. As I said, there's no ideal
12 solution to this problem.
13 MS. KORNER: No. But, Your Honour, the most efficient is the one
14 that I suggested. That rather than waste any more time over this, I
15 simply, because I -- that's the point I want to make, I ask for this
16 document to be admitted as an exhibit and for Your Honours to make your
17 own decision about this. That's the quickest way. And then I even ask
18 no further questions.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may reply briefly.
21 I would opt for the opposite approach. I think the Prosecutor
22 should point out the section of the interview where the witness was asked
23 whether he was a member of the special police and the witness omitted to
25 So it should be pointed out very clear. And maybe at that --
1 that way we can arrive at the solution to this problem. Maybe not show
2 where the witness said or didn't say that he was a member, but where he
3 was asked about it.
4 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I can very quickly come to the
5 bit that it would have taken me a bit of time.
6 Can we have page 56 up on the screen.
7 JUDGE HALL: I would point out that we are three minutes past the
8 time that we should rise, but quickly, Ms. Korner.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes. Yes, yes. So -- for some reason, the e-court
10 version is different.
11 Could we have a look, please, at 57.
12 No. All right, Your Honours. We can't do it because for some
13 reason the version I've got has got different page numbers from the one
14 that's in e-court, so perhaps I can do it tomorrow.
15 But, Your Honour, what I think I will do is get that part
16 translated tomorrow -- for tomorrow, and then put it to him, and then
17 I'll ask Your Honours to admit it.
18 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic, you wanted to say something on
19 this before we break?
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly.
21 [B/C/S on English channel]
22 MR. CVIJETIC: ... lose sight of the right of the accused to see
23 the document in the language they understand. Understand the discussion.
24 MS. KORNER: No. I'm afraid it's got nothing to do with the
25 accused. This is the witness. The -- they have called this witness.
1 The accused have no more rights about this one. If they -- the tapes
2 have all been provided to the Defence, and the accused can listen to the
3 tapes if they really want it.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But you are suggesting that
5 you want the interview admitted as an exhibit. Isn't it then fair to the
6 accused to receive the document in a language they understand and that
7 we, who instruct the accused, also see it in our language, if you are
8 raising the possibility of exhibiting it?
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
10 We will rise and reconvene tomorrow morning.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of
13 November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.