1 Thursday, 8 December 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances today,
12 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours. Belinda Pidwell,
13 Joanna Korner, and Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the Prosecution.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Ms. Deirdre Montgomery, and Ms. Annemarie McNulty,
16 appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
18 Miroslav Cuskic, and Heather Cohen, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL: If there are no preliminary or other housekeeping
20 matters, I believe we have a videolink witness --
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, your microphone was not
24 activated it says.
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I notice you're on your feet.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. There are two matters which I
2 informed the Registry that I would like to raise today because Ms. Korner
3 will not be available next Thursday, and we agreed that the Trial Chamber
4 should be made aware of this, and -- but I propose to do that after we
5 finish with the witness because, as I understand, we will still have time
6 enough before we adjourn for the day.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And thanks for reminding me that I was
8 to have announced immediately this morning what would have been
9 communicated to the parties by e-mail yesterday, that we have been -- we
10 were unable to accommodate counsel's preference in terms of the date for
11 the administrative sitting for next week so it would be fixed for
12 Thursday. The Chamber simply would not be in a position to have prepared
13 itself for the matters with which it would --
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So the -- as I said, I gather the witness is
18 in place. And I would ask the Court Officer to confirm that they are
19 receiving us.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours, we are
21 receiving you quite good.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness.
24 First of all, do you hear me in a language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Thank you for coming to us and being
2 prepared to give your testimony. You are about to read the solemn
3 declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I
4 need to point out that the solemn declaration that you are about to make
5 does expose to the penalty of perjury, should you give misleading or
6 untruthful evidence to this Tribunal.
7 Now, then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the
8 solemn declaration?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I
10 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sir, the Court Officer will hand to you a
14 pseudonym sheet with all your -- the elements of your identity. Can you
15 please check all that and confirm that everything is correct in there.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Can you please sign it then.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 Madam Registrar, can it be given an exhibit number, under seal.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D189, under seal, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
23 Well, then, sir, can I ask you, have you ever been -- have you
24 ever testified before? Before this Tribunal or before any tribunal in
25 the region about the war?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have never testified, either
2 before this Court or any other, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
4 So, then, I'll explain briefly for you what will happen during
5 your testimony.
6 You have been called as a witness by the Defence of
7 Mr. Zupljanin, who asked for a very short time to examine you. After
8 that, there will be cross-examination by the Defence of Mr. Stanisic and
9 by the Prosecutor. We anticipate that your testimony will be finished by
10 the end of the session -- the end of the hearing today, which,
11 eventually, could be in the -- in the afternoon, but perhaps it will end
12 before the end of the morning session at -- which normally ends at a
13 quarter to 2.00.
14 One practical matter: The records here are taken on video-tape
15 and tapes have to be changed every 90 minutes. That means that every one
16 hour and a half we have to have a break. These break are about 20
17 minutes each time. But if for any reason you need another break or a
18 prolonged break, please tell us and we will accommodate you.
19 That's all I have to say for the moment.
20 Mr. Krgovic, your witness.
21 WITNESS: SZ-022
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 [Witness testified via videolink]
24 Examination by Mr. Krgovic:
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Good morning, sir.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Sir, I'll ask you something about your education and your career.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] For that purpose, Your Honour,
5 could we move into private session briefly.
6 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Sir, when were you contacted by the Defence of
20 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, and by whom?
21 A. In mid-March. Drago got in touch with me, as well as Mirko.
22 They were the people who got in touch with me.
23 Q. Do you mean Mirko Bojinovic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did Mr. Bojinovic tell you then, or what did he ask you?
1 A. Well, the trial of Stojan Zupljanin had commenced, and he said
2 that I should provide a statement as a witness.
3 Q. About what? About Mr. Zupljanin?
4 A. About Stojan Zupljanin, his character, and what kind of person he
5 was, how he treated people before the war and during the war.
6 Q. Did you, indeed, provide such a statement; and was it certified?
7 A. I did. I provided the statement before representatives of
8 The Hague Tribunal, and I signed it accordingly.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness
11 please be shown 6D2 and that it be uploaded in e-court for the use of the
12 other parties and the Chamber.
13 Q. Sir, is this the statement?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Have you read it before signing?
16 A. I have.
17 Q. Can you confirm its authenticity?
18 A. I didn't understand that.
19 Q. Can you confirm its authenticity. Is that what you said?
20 A. Yes, I can confirm its accuracy.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpretation note: As the microphone before
22 the witness is placed on the table, any shuffling on that table causes
23 unbearable background noise that is impossible to work with.
24 JUDGE HALL: The -- sorry. The -- I don't know if the Court
25 Officer heard what the interpreters have just indicated. Is there any
1 way that that can be minimised? I suppose the microphone can't be moved,
2 but bearing in mind where it is, if the papers could be handled in such a
3 way so as to minimise this background noise which -- which we all hear.
4 Thank you.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, we try to do that.
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Krgovic, please proceed. [Microphone not activated]
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, after you signed the statement, were you contacted by Stojan
10 Zupljanin Defence concerning the wish of the Prosecution to interview
12 A. Yes. I was contacted by Mirko and Drago.
13 Q. What was your answer to Mr. Bojinovic then?
14 A. We told Bojinovic that we do not want to contact the Prosecutor's
15 office because I was to appear as the witness of one side, and it's not
16 customary to appear on behalf of the other side as well.
17 Q. When you say "we," who do you mean? Yourself? Did you have
18 yourself in mind or anyone else?
19 A. Us, personally.
20 Q. Were you contacted again sometime in October regarding the same
21 issue by Mr. Bojinovic, and did you express your position then?
22 A. My position remained the same when he asked me that. I said that
23 I was willing to provide a statement.
24 Q. Did you, indeed, sign such a statement?
25 A. Yes. Some ten days ago, I signed the statement.
1 Q. Sir, when you verified the accuracy of the March statement, did
2 the Tribunal representative advise you of your right to protective
4 A. Yes, he did.
5 Q. What was your answer then? Did you tell the representative that
6 you wanted protective measures?
7 A. I said I wanted protective measures because of certain things. I
8 received threatening messages, phone calls, and threats were expressed
9 regarding my family and company.
10 Q. Sir, after talking to people from Mr. Zupljanin's Defence, did
11 you tell them anything about your medical problems?
12 A. Yes, I did. In 2006, I had a stroke --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: A heart attack.
14 A. Because of which I went for treatment to Belgrade, Banja Luka,
15 Tuzla, and other places. And I have documents to prove that I cannot
16 travel on my own, that I must be accompanied, and somebody must be beside
17 me even when I'm asleep and so on.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, are we still -- are we in open
19 session? I think --
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm proceeding in a
21 cautious manner. This is general information, and I'm weary not to
22 jeopardise the witness's -- or to compromise the witness's identity. I
23 did request a return to open session, though.
24 Q. You said that you knew Mr. Zupljanin and that you had meetings
25 with him. During these few years while he was standing trial, were you
1 in contact with him?
2 A. No, I had no contact with him, either over the phone or through
3 other persons.
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is all I have
6 for this witness.
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: We have no cross-examination for this witness,
9 Your Honours. Thank you.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
11 Ms. Pidwell.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone of the accused is on. Could it
13 be switched off, please.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Pidwell:
15 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you some questions about the evidence
16 you've given and the statements you've made to this Tribunal and also
17 about some documents.
18 Do you have a binder of documents with you? In that binder is
19 some documents and your statements, and when I ask you to have a look at
20 them I'll refer to the number on the right-hand side and you'll see the
21 document there in your language. So just be mindful, please, that the
22 paper makes a noise which is disruptive to the interpreters, so we just
23 need to switch the microphone off one you're flicking to the appropriate
25 MS. PIDWELL: We may need to go into private session,
1 Your Honour, for the start.
2 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] yes.
3 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 MS. PIDWELL:
10 Q. Sir, you've told us in your statement that you're a hunter.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in your area, is hunting a big sport, a popular sport?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. There's lots of mountains and forests which provide a nice area
15 for locals to go hunting.
16 A. Yes.
20 Q. Sir, we're in open session now, so can you please refrain from
21 using terminology that may identify where you come from. That will help
22 us all keep your identity protected.
23 A. All right. I apologise.
24 Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Approximately how many people would you say from your area, from
1 your town, are part of this hunting association?
2 A. 286.
3 Q. When was this association first formed?
4 A. In 1957.
5 Q. And in -- in 1991 or the -- well, in 1991, do you know
6 approximately how many members from your area were part of this hunting
8 A. Well, there must have been about 160.
9 Q. And the weapons that -- that you hunters use for your sport, are
10 they a particular kind of weapon; and, if so, can you please describe
12 A. Well, it's mostly hunting rifles or shotguns, but other kinds of
13 weapons are not used for hunting.
14 Q. And did you keep a register of these rifles at your hunting
15 association, of their -- their make and calibre and so forth?
16 A. No, I did not. I was a regular member of the association. I
17 wasn't the president or anything.
18 Q. Did anyone, to your knowledge, keep a register of the weapons
19 that were used by your hunting association?
20 A. The secretary did.
21 Q. And the weapons, were they kept in a communal place or were --
22 did the members keep their weapons in their own homes?
23 A. They kept them at home. And that's still the case now.
24 MS. PIDWELL: Can we go into private session, Your Honours,
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 26357-26358 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MS. PIDWELL:
12 Q. Sir, in 1992, did you -- I'm presuming you didn't suffer the same
13 health problems then as you do now?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Would you say you were fit and healthy at that time?
16 A. I was.
17 Q. And the village that you lived in was a predominantly Muslim
18 village, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was your war-time work obligation? Were you an army
21 reservist or police reservist at the time? Before the war.
22 A. No. I was an army reservist.
23 Q. Did you respond to the call for mobilization in 1991?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you respond to the call for general mobilization in May 1992?
1 A. Well, we didn't, nor did anyone call upon us to do so.
2 Q. And who is "we," sir?
3 A. Well, me. I apologise.
4 Q. So during the course of 1992, you continued to operate your
5 business as normal; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many employees do you have -- did you have back then?
8 A. I had ten men.
9 Q. And what was the ethnicity of your employees?
10 A. There were both Serbs and Muslims.
11 Q. And without saying his name, did you have a business partner who
12 owned and operated your business with you?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
15 A. Yes, we did. We ran the company together. He -- he's a Serb.
16 All the way until --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: All the way until
18 2002, we were together.
19 MS. PIDWELL:
20 Q. Now, in the proofing note that was given to us as a result of
21 someone speaking with you in the last few days about your testimony, it
22 says that you owned several private companies in -- since 1998; is that
24 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that business also based in your municipality?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it continued to operate during the course of 1992 as well?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Can we go into private session, please,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 26362-26365 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 MS. PIDWELL:
16 Q. Now, sir, we know you're not a policeman. Have you ever been a
18 A. No.
19 Q. And in your contacts, your meetings with Mr. Zupljanin, he was
20 always meeting you in a private capacity, wasn't he?
21 A. Yes, privately.
22 Q. You never attended any meetings where he was acting in his
23 professional capacity, did you?
24 A. No, no. Not, Your Honour.
25 Q. And the statement that you've made about Mr. Zupljanin, that's
1 your personal opinion about him, isn't it? You're not speaking on behalf
2 of anyone else.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't understand. The
4 second time around, the witness said: No.
5 JUDGE HALL: Perhaps, Ms. Pidwell, you can put the question
7 MS. PIDWELL: I will, Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, there was some confusion in your answer, so I will ask that
9 same question again?
10 The statement that you made about Mr. Zupljanin that you signed,
11 that's your personal opinion about him, isn't it? You're not speaking on
12 behalf of anyone else?
13 A. It is my personal opinion, Your Honours.
14 Q. Now, you've told the Court in your statement that Mr. Zupljanin,
15 in fact, helped you to continue to operate your business during 1992,
16 didn't you?
17 A. That is correct. He made some phone calls to the director to
18 provide raw materials for our wood processing. The forestry director
19 told me so.
20 Q. And did this happen before or after the take-over?
21 A. Before.
22 Q. And after the take-over, were you aware of Mr. Zupljanin
23 continuing to support your efforts and your business, or was there no
24 contact at all?
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
9 MS. PIDWELL: We may need to go back into private session now,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 26369 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 MS. PIDWELL:
15 Q. If you look at the document, sir, which is at tab 4 in your
16 binder; it's P82. It's a --
17 MS. PIDWELL: I think we need to go into private session,
18 Your Honours. I'm sorry.
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
20 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes. You were confirming this is a convenient point
5 to take the break.
6 Any idea how much longer you will be with this witness.
7 MS. PIDWELL: Approximately half an hour.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE HALL: So we will -- we are about to take a break,
10 Mr. Witness. We will continue in about 20 minutes.
11 The Court Officer would ensure that you're in place for the
12 resumption. Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Ms. Pidwell.
16 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, before the break -- I think we need to be in private
19 MS. PIDWELL: Are we still in private session?
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 26372-26376 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 MS. PIDWELL:
1 Q. Now you weren't involved, were you, in the negotiations with the
2 people of Verici which occurred towards the end of 1992, were you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So when you talk about the surrender of Verici in September or
5 end of August 1992, are you -- where do you get that date from?
6 A. I heard about it when I began to travel. I was completely
7 unaware of everything, but then I heard about the surrender.
8 Q. So you weren't present when Mr. Zupljanin and Colonel Peulic and
9 others came to your municipality in mid-October 1992 to enter into
10 negotiations with the people of Verici. You weren't -- you weren't there
11 at that time?
12 A. No. Nor do I know anything about it.
13 Q. When you --
14 MS. PIDWELL: I think we need to go back to private session,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 26379-26396 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we thank you for your assistance to the
3 Tribunal, and you are now released, and we trust that your health
4 concerns do not continue to make life difficult for you. We wish you a
5 safe journey back to your place of residence.
6 Thank you, sir.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. All the best
8 to you.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we have finished
10 with this witness, I wanted to tender the statement of Witness -- 6D2.
11 That is document 65 ter 6D2.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D190, Your Honours.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE HALL: Under seal. Thank you.
16 Mr. Zecevic, you indicated you had a number of matters to raise.
17 This session has run a little longer than any of us anticipated. Should
18 we take a break and come back or should we press on?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, it is -- I'm in your hands, Your Honours.
20 There are two matters: One is relatively short but the other is
21 a bit longer, I'm afraid, so I mean, one of the matters is that we have
22 an agreement with the Office of the Prosecutor, so it's our joint
23 request. And the other is, I'm afraid, not agreed to that level, I must
25 JUDGE HALL: Well, having regard to the pattern of sitting to
1 accommodate the recording and all of those matters, and the convenience
2 of the accused, perhaps we could take an abbreviated break of 15 minutes
3 in as much as we certainly wouldn't be here for a full session after
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE HALL: So we come back after 15 minutes.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE HALL: I stand corrected. I understand that a 15-minute
9 break cannot be accommodated, so we will have to come back in 20 minutes.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
12 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, I called on Mr. Zecevic before we rose, and
13 when we came out of court I was remarking to Judge Delvoie that with the
14 videolink and going back and forth remembering which screen to use, I
15 felt myself like someone flying a jet plane who was totally unfamiliar
16 with -- with the instruments.
17 So any confusion that I exhibited earlier that is the
18 explanation. And in that vein it dawned on me that before I call on
19 Mr. Zecevic, the -- sequentially, I should have inquired of Mr. Krgovic
20 as to what the position -- having called, what we understand to be the
21 last witness, what does he say about his case.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the Zupljanin
23 Defence hereby officially announces the closing of its Defence case,
24 except for the bar table motion. We ask the Bench's permission to
25 postpone that until Thursday next week.
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.
2 Yes, Mr. Zecevic -- sorry.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I only wanted to
4 thank the Tribunal services for their assistance during the Defence case,
5 especially the Victims and Witnesses Unit, as well as the interpreters
6 for their patience to cope with the frequent overlapping during our
7 Defence case. And that would be all for me, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.
9 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I will try to be brief as
12 Your Honour, the first matter I wanted to raise with the
13 Trial Chamber is the issue of the video material exhibits in this case.
14 Namely, when we were reviewing the exhibits in this case, the full body
15 of exhibits in this case, it came to our attention that -- that some 58
16 videos have been admitted so far in -- in the case.
17 Now, it is our understanding, Your Honours, that in case of
18 videos, the videos are admitted in their full length of the videos, and
19 that the parties are entitled to rely upon the entire video. But, as a
20 matter of -- of -- practical thing is that the parties are required to
21 upload the English language translation of the relevant portions that
22 they rely upon.
23 Now, we wanted to supplement the translation of some of the video
24 exhibits in this case with additional parts that we intend to rely on of
25 the video material that has been exhibited and the exhibits are the --
1 the Office of the Prosecutor's exhibits.
2 In our review of that material, it became apparent to us that
3 there is a certain confusion. The confusion is with the ERN number, the
4 confusion is with the transcripts of the videos, where, for example, we
5 would have a transcript of a certain part of that video and that that
6 part is not contained in that video material. We tried resolve the
7 situation between the parties, and we had exchanged numerous e-mails and
8 had a meeting yesterday with the Office of the Prosecutor, and we decided
9 that the only practical way how to do achieve this, like how to actually
10 finalize this exercise, would be that we ask from the -- from the
11 Registry, that we receive the copies, the official copies of the official
12 material which has been exhibited in this case, video material.
13 Now, that was agreement between Office of the Prosecutor and all
14 the -- both Defence teams because we think that the only relevant,
15 actually, material is the one which is hold by the Registry. We,
16 therefore, ask the Registry to provide that material to us and, to our
17 surprise, the Registry said that we would need to put that on the record
18 and ask the -- the Trial Chamber to order the Registry to provide that
19 material to us.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE HALL: As can you continue, Mr. Zecevic, could you assist
22 us by explaining what it is that are you seeking from the Registry that
23 you do not now have? Because inasmuch as the document -- the material
24 which the Prosecution expected to use would have been disclosed to you
25 and then there was the formality of the -- from that bulk of certain
1 items being tendered and admitted on -- on -- on the orders of the -- of
2 the -- of the Court what -- what it is that -- what of that you don't
3 have that you now need.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, the point of the matter --
5 perhaps I wasn't very clear.
6 The point of the matter is, for example, your order was that
7 video exhibited as P1318.15 would be admitted in the exhibits. And that
8 is on the record. The video, 1318.15 has been admitted. The transcript
9 of the -- of the -- of that video has also been admitted. However, the
10 transcript of that video does not correspond to that video. That is the
12 So, therefore, we have -- we have a video material which does not
13 correspond to the transcript, which was admitted as allegedly being the
14 part of that particular exhibit. That is our problem, Your Honours.
15 And ...
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE HALL: Isn't the logical answer that the tendering party,
18 and most of them want to come from the Prosecution, has a responsibility
19 to ensure that the -- I'll say the -- that the real exhibit is before the
20 Court and, of course, and for the use of the party opposite. Because, if
21 I understand you, what you're saying is is that the transcript provided
22 doesn't correspond -- which purported to the be transcript of the
23 exhibited video doesn't correspond with it, then certainly the onus would
24 be on the tendering party to ensure that that error is corrected.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, by all means, that is correct, Your Honours.
1 That is precisely what we are asking for.
2 In order to be able to -- to remedy these errors, we have to find
3 out where the errors are. So -- because we are not sure anymore that is
4 it only one or five videos that are -- that are confused with the
5 transcripts and -- because there is a confusion with the ERN numbers.
6 And that is why we are asking, both parties, are asking the Registry to
7 disclose to us the videos that are exhibited so we can review them and
8 then make the -- the necessary remedy of errors or changes that need to
9 be done.
10 We don't know how else to proceed on that.
11 JUDGE HALL: Well, the -- wouldn't a first approach be for
12 counsel, plural, to meet with the relevant Registry officer and see how
13 this problem could be sorted out. Because it strikes me as being a --
14 technical isn't the right word, administrative isn't the right word
15 either, but practical problem of ensuring that the transcript is
16 reconciled with the videotape which is a largely physical exercise, and
17 I'm not sure how the Bench could assist. Because it -- if the problem is
18 as serious as you indicate, it -- it involves some grunt work which, as I
19 said, counsel and the Registry officer alone can do.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, that was precisely our idea. We
21 never wanted to bring this to the attention of the Bench because we don't
22 think that the Bench needs to be involved in this exercise at all. We
23 asked the Registry to provide to the parties the copies of the official
24 video exhibits in this case, and we, as the parties, of course are
25 entitled to all exhibits in this case.
1 Now the Registry denied that request and said that we must
2 obtain -- or that the Registry must obtain the order from the Trial
3 Chamber to do so, and that is why I'm standing now before you.
4 Otherwise, I wouldn't have.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I explain what the difficulty is,
8 as we discussed yesterday with Mr. Zecevic.
9 We think we know what we put in as an exhibit. We think we know
10 what -- what CD we gave to the Registry as the exhibit. But it appears
11 that Mr. Zecevic, having -- because he wants to put in further parts of
12 transcripts, has discovered there seems to be an error. But unless the
13 Registry tell us all what they've got as the CDs with the list, we have
14 no way of finding out because we've got a pile of CDs which we closed.
15 But that's the problem that arises.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, Ms. Korner, if what the Registry has is what
18 they got from you, then how is the Registry to solve the problem.
19 MS. KORNER: It is clear -- no, but, Your Honours, it's clear
20 that something has gone wrong somewhere. We don't know where. Because,
21 as I say, from our point of view, the day we put in videos or were going
22 to put in videos as exhibits, we gave the transcript to the Registry, to
23 everybody, we then handed over a CD of the video to the Registry. And I,
24 or whoever it was, would get up and say please may this be made exhibit
25 whatever it is. And the transcript goes with it.
1 Apparently somewhere along the line, between the -- us handing
2 them over and the Defence and us all thinking that's what's going in,
3 they haven't gone in, at least for this particular exhibit. I don't know
4 if Mr. Zecevic has done any checks on the others, but on this one,
5 certainly. So unless we see what the Registry has list -- the actual
6 physical CD or video that the Registry has listed as the exhibit,
7 together with the transcript, then we can't see what's gone wrong.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, or Mr. Zecevic, rather than give to
11 the Prosecution new copies of the CDs they already have, and to the -- to
12 the Defence something they already got, I think, twice, so this would be
13 the third CDs -- CD that would be handed to them, wouldn't it be enough
14 if the Registry would give you a list of the CDs with the matching
15 transcripts -- with the numbers of the matching transcripts?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it will not, Your Honour, I'm afraid.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: But you have all that.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, we agree we have all that. We have hours and
19 hours of video material and only 58 videos have been admitted on the
20 record, Your Honours.
21 Now, what we are saying is that there might be -- what we are
22 saying, we identified there is a mistake; for example, video number 4
23 which was given to us by the Office of the Prosecutor and which is a part
24 of the evidence does not correspond to the transcript number 4. That is
25 our position.
1 And in order to be able to find out where are the errors, the
2 only logical, the only sensible solution is that the Registry provides us
3 with this. We discuss, and then we inform the Trial Chamber, or the
4 Registry, where are the mistakes. And then we approach the Trial Chamber
5 and ask that there should be a supplemented video instead of this number
6 4, there should be another video put as number 4. That is the only
7 sensible solution. And I think it will assist the Trial Chamber
8 ultimately. Because, Your Honours, at the point when you -- with all due
9 respect, you will review the evidence at a certain point in future, then
10 you will have on one situation a video which does not correspond at all
11 to the -- to the transcript.
12 So I believe it's in the interests of all parties, and we -- we
13 spoke for hours and exchanged e-mails, and, believe me, the only sensible
14 solution is that. And we wouldn't have, if it wasn't for Registry
15 denial, we wouldn't have raised this matter with the Trial Chamber at all
16 because we think it's a practically technical matter. Until the moment
17 when find where the errors are, and then when we have to remedy those
18 errors, we would approach the Trial Chamber with them.
19 JUDGE HALL: Well, to the extent that, and what has passed
20 between the -- the Bench and counsel with the assistance of our Court
21 Officer, we are still in a position where -- I don't think there is
22 anything that the Bench can, practically speaking, do today. And
23 therefore I would, as I had originally -- earlier suggested that counsel
24 seek to identify with the Registry officer the -- such of the problem as
25 cannot be resolved between them as counsel and would require the
1 intervention of the Bench. But it would seem to be premature at this
2 stage and practically impossible for the Bench to attempt to do it --
3 because it wouldn't know what it's ordering or requiring.
4 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I see the problem. I think with
5 respect can we at least adopt Your Honours' suggestion that the Registry
6 start by sending us, please, all of us, a list of the videos admitted as
7 exhibits with the ERN numbers and also the video -- the transcripts so
8 that we can see what, at least they say, are the ERN numbers plus that.
9 So would Your Honours, just to save any future discussion with
10 the Registry, order that, as a starter.
11 JUDGE HALL: So ordered.
12 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL: And I gather there is no practical difficulty with
14 that. So the Chamber makes that order, which should be your starting
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Ms. Korner.
17 And thank you, Your Honours.
18 I thought that this -- that the first thing would be easy,
19 but ...
20 Now I'm coming to a second thing which is a slightly complex
22 JUDGE HALL: If it is what I believe it to be, do we have to go
23 into private session?
24 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it's CHS.
25 JUDGE HALL: Oh, I see.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: The second matter is related to CHS.
2 The -- by order of the Trial Chamber of February 1st, 2011, the
3 CHS, like -- as a -- or POD, whatever it's called, with the underlying
4 material is admitted as evidence.
5 Now, Your Honours, we intend to make a submission on the CHS and
6 the underlying material. As you know, we opposed that, we challenged,
7 and so on and so forth. Now, for us, the -- the logical solution was
8 that we do that in the final -- in the final arguments or in the final
9 brief, but we are in the hands of Your Honours when we should make that
10 submission. It can be either done at a certain point in time between now
11 and the -- and before we file the final submissions, or in the -- in the
12 time where -- when we are filing our final briefs and making our final
14 However, Your Honours, if Your Honours will -- will consider that
15 the appropriate time for our submission would be final brief or the final
16 arguments, then I have to raise another issue with -- with the Trial
17 Chamber. And that is, there is 1.760 victims in the CHS. We have
18 created our spreadsheet with the colours which will show what are the --
19 in our opinion, and in our submissions, were the -- what are the failures
20 of the CHS. However, we also, in order to be -- to make -- to make it
21 available for the trier of fact to understand why we think this is a
22 failure, we prepared a short narrative on each and every one of these
23 1.760 witnesses contained in the CHS.
24 Now, Your Honours, when we were reviewing our product, it came to
25 our attention that we have approximately 120 words per victim because,
1 Your Honours, we are challenging the sources and we are challenging the
2 contents of the CHS. And, of course, we have to name the sources and the
3 contents that we are challenging, and, plus, give the name to identify
4 the witness. And it comes roughly to 120 words per one victim.
5 Now, all that compiled, if we would use that approximate value,
6 with 1.760 witnesses, it bought us to 211.000 words. Now -- I'm sorry,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I think -- I think approximately 350 words is
10 per page.
11 Now, the problem is the directive says 60.000 pages for the final
12 brief. We assume that, due to the -- to the size of this case, that our
13 friends from the Office of the Prosecutor will join us for a request to
14 the Chamber that we be given an additional amount of -- of pages for the
15 final briefs, to extend the -- this limit of 60.000. But I wanted to
16 raise this at this point, this issue with the CHS, because it is
17 rather -- it's not like we are asking for 10.000, 20.000, or 30.000
18 pages, we are asking for another 211 --
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Words.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, words. I'm sorry.
21 Words, yes. So ...
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, may I say that we don't expect the
24 Trial Chamber to give us a decision today, but we just wanted to inform
25 the Trial Chamber about the thing that we --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, we eventually could, Mr. Zecevic, if you
2 make the application for an extended -- are you making the application?
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But I -- I thought that we will discuss the
4 matter on the -- on -- on the -- on -- on our administrative hearing next
5 week, about the -- the -- the size of the final briefs. But I'm
6 making --
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, one solution could be that we give you the
8 possibility to file this particular issue separately and electronically
9 in that case.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, we would --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: In an Excel format, please. So perhaps that's
12 something to think about for next Thursday.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: No, that would be really very helpful and we would
14 be very grateful to Your Honours if you would give us that opportunity.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we have no objection to that at all,
17 subject -- would it -- would it really be -- I suppose in one sense it
18 would be a motion to which we would have an opportunity to respond
19 because normally what would happen is we would file final briefs on the
20 seam day, and then if anybody replied to respond to each others' final
21 briefs, but if there's a -- this is going to be filed separately,
22 effectively, I suppose, as a motion, and not part of the final brief,
23 then do we get a chance to respond to it?
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Ms. Korner. You're right. You would have a
1 possibility to respond.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Right. Well, then, Your Honours, we don't
3 have any objection to that.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Just to be very precise, Your Honours.
6 Your Honour, Judge Delvoie, mentioned the Excel format. We do have our
7 analysis in the Excel format. However, the Excel format without the
8 narrative is not -- is, I'm afraid, could be meaningless or basically the
9 Trial Chamber will not be able or the other party to follow the Excel
10 sheet comments without the narrative and that is why we need to file both
11 of them.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, of course. But you could -- you could put
13 the narrative in the Excel format as well. Each victim being linked to
14 the narrative on another sheet.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which would make things easier to consult and to
17 study. But, whatever. Of course, you need to file both, that's for
19 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours.
20 May I check this technical aspect and come back to Your Honours
21 next Thursday.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there's just one matter. Of course,
25 the -- this exercise as Mr. Zecevic knows which he has done, as we told
1 him yesterday, won't be based on the final version because as Your
2 Honours know by the 10th of January we should have all the translations
3 back and, additionally, we're applying to add the further death
4 certificates. So just -- presumably this filing will not be made until
5 that happens, so after the 10th of January.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Definitely. We do not intend to file until we get
7 the final version from the Office of the Prosecutor. Then we will
8 prepare our document and file it. Thank you.
9 If it pleases the Court, yes.
10 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honours may I just raise two matters
12 As Your Honours know and as Judge Hall explained, the
13 administrative hearing - I was going to say a la Seselj style, but
14 whatever - will be held on Thursday for which I won't be present. I did
15 suggest that I might raise matters that Your Honours might want to put on
16 to an to an agenda, but I think it's probably more sensible, if we may,
17 that we e-mail the Senior Legal Officer with our suggestions for the
18 agenda, if that seems suitable.
19 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
20 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Any matters which might
21 not have been obvious to the Chamber, it would be useful if counsel
22 could, by e-mail, indicate items which need to be dealt with at that
24 MS. KORNER: Yes.
25 JUDGE HALL: Thanks.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the second matter is, as I believe Your
2 Honours are aware, this is Ms. Pidwell's last day in the Tribunal. For
3 some reason she wishes to exchange winter in Holland for summer in New
4 Zealand, and nobody can understand that.
5 Your Honours, it's only right and proper, therefore, that she
6 should have dealt with the last witness. Anyone who thinks that Senior
7 Trial Attorneys run cases would be gravely mistaken. It is the P-4s who
8 are the backbone and the real force in, I think, any case in this
9 Tribunal as far as the Office of the Prosecutor is concerned.
10 In Ms. Pidwell's case, although she was one of the last arrivals
11 of the team for the Office of the Prosecutor in this case, by dint of her
12 personality and her clear management skills, as well as her courtroom
13 skills which Your Honours have had a chance to observe, she took on the
14 role really by osmosis, but without any complaint at all of really
15 running the team, as was made very clear to me in no uncertain terms at
16 the last time that Ms. Pidwell left temporarily.
17 Your Honour, her leaving does leave a real hole in the team,
18 which I hope will be acknowledged by perhaps a little more leeway on
19 writing motions and the like, but Your Honours, I felt it was only right
20 that on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor, I should make this plain
21 in Court.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. I didn't realize. I knew that she would
23 leaving us soon, but I didn't realize that today was the last day that we
24 would be seeing her before the Tribunal. And certainly on behalf of all
25 of us on the Bench, we, first of all, thank you for your assistance, to
1 repeat what I would have said in terms when another of your colleagues
2 was departing, that despite the adversarial nature of what we do, the
3 system only works and trials only function if there is a large measure of
4 cooperation, and we have no reason to believe that counsel opposite have
5 ever had good reason - and I emphasise good - to complain about your
6 failure to cooperate when cooperation was called for, and we thank you
7 for your assistance and wish you all the best in your future career.
8 As it turns out today is a day of partings, because in addition
9 to Ms. Pidwell's going today is the last day that we would have before us
10 our Senior Legal Officer, Ms. Yvonne Featherstone.
11 The Tribunal recently observed its 18th anniversary, and at the
12 risk of embarrassing Yvonne in terms of the numbers of summers that she
13 would have seen, it is useful to recognise that a child who was born when
14 the Tribunal began would be about to graduate secondary school. So we've
15 been around for, in this compact age in which we live, well neigh a
16 generation, and she has been with us for an enormous -- for most of that
17 time, and it is a fact on which I have continuously relied in the two
18 -plus years that I have been here and it has been a source of probably
19 some mild annoyance to here and amusement to me, I must confess, that
20 whenever any problems or questions arose, such as we were faced with
21 today, that I would ask in the -- all the years you have been here, this
22 matter hasn't been resolved. So this has become a sort of running
23 joke -- joke with us. I always remind her that she has been here in the
24 expression that is used, since the flood, by which of course I mean
25 Noah's flood, and of course she reminds that she has actually been here
1 long enough to remember there is an actual flood in the basement of this
3 So that the -- the, as I said, that institutional memory,
4 unfortunately, will no longer be available to us, and on behalf of the
5 Bench and the team in this trial and the other trials in which we have
6 worked with her, I commend and thank her, and the -- one of the things
7 that I would personally remember, of course, is her even disposition and
8 her -- what I would describe as a focussed rather than flamboyant
9 enthusiasm in terms of solving the problems which has beset all of us.
10 So we -- although this is not the conclusion of this case, we
11 have an administrative hearing as we all know next week, and we return
12 early in the new year to wind up a number of matters before this case is
13 formally closed, and I know that Ms. Featherstone would have wished to
14 see this case through the end, but the nature of life is that on
15 occasions such as this, invite any number of cliches, but life moves on.
16 And like Ms. Pidwell, we wish her all the best in her future
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the Office of the Prosecutor obviously
19 wishes Ms. Featherstone the best in the future as well.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, there would be not be many opportunities, but
21 I will join my words with Ms. Korner in this trial, but I would like to
22 put on the record that in this case, and in case of Ms. Pidwell, we do
23 from our heart. Thank you very much.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: And Mr. Zupljanin Defence submits, too.
25 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
1 So we take the adjournment, to reconvene on --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE HALL: -- to reconvene at 9.00 on Thursday; probably in
4 this same courtroom.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.11 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th of December,
7 2011, at 9.00 a.m.