1 Thursday, 15 December 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.41 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances today,
12 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution,
13 I'm Tom Hannis, along with Matthew Olmsted and our Case Manager
14 Sebastiaan van Hooydonk.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
16 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Annemarie McNulty appearing for Stanisic
17 Defence this morning. Thank you.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
19 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 The -- today's administrative hearing, as we have described it,
22 was called to settle a number of outstanding matters and tidy up some
23 issues before we take the adjournment until the -- after the winter
24 recess. And we have an agenda which has been circulated to the parties,
25 derived from the very helpful input that we would have gotten in terms of
1 the issues which the parties wish -- with which the parties wish the
2 Chamber to deal.
3 The first item on the agenda is the decision on the rebuttal
4 evidence in relation to the Stanisic Defence case. And I would only say
5 at this point that the Chamber will be issuing its decision on the
6 Prosecution's first two motions to present the evidence of two witnesses
7 in rebuttal of the Stanisic Defence case in the course of today. And in
8 order to further assist discussions on scheduling for next month, we
9 inform the parties that the decision will grant the request in part,
10 allowing both witnesses to be called viva voce on discrete issues, with
11 no more than two hours each for cross-exam -- for examination-in-chief.
12 And we anticipate that the Prosecution will be in a position to call its
13 first witness in rebuttal when we reconvene on Tuesday, the 10th of
15 I would invite Judge Harhoff to deal with the second item that we
16 have on the agenda.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 The second issue is on the oral order on disclosure of material
19 provided by BiH pursuant to Rule 54 bis.
20 Now could I ask that we move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 26419-26421 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
6 MR. HANNIS: Just a point of order, Your Honour. There was one
7 question I wanted to ask about the first item. I don't know if you want
8 me to wait until you've gone through the entire agenda or deal with it
9 before we move on.
10 JUDGE HALL: I think it would be simpler if you were to deal with
11 these items as they come up.
12 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
13 JUDGE HALL: So, yes.
14 MR. HANNIS: On the first item, regarding the rebuttal witnesses
15 for January, I had a question concerning the scope of cross-examination.
16 We had some witnesses we called during the Prosecution case in-chief to
17 deal with adjudicated facts, you'll recall, and I believe in connection
18 with that the Trial Chamber had entered an order that cross-examination
19 should be limited to the adjudicated fact that witness was called to
20 testify about and, of course, matters regarding credibility of the
21 witness. It seems to me that this is sort of an analogous situation and
22 that cross-examination for the rebuttal witnesses should be limited to
23 the rebuttal, the items or the topics that they're rebutting and, of
24 course, credibility.
25 JUDGE HALL: Well, the -- the Chamber appreciates that, and the
1 decision, which, as I said, would be issued today, would address that.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
4 JUDGE HALL: The next matter is the review of documents that have
5 been marked for identification.
6 In the Chamber's own review, it has found 53 such documents, of
7 which 12 are from the Stanisic Defence, 6 from the Zupljanin Defence, and
8 the remainder are all Prosecution documents. And the Chamber invites the
9 parties to review these documents and thereafter file a joint submission
10 with their position on these documents. And we further instruct the
11 parties to process -- to complete this process and report to the Chamber
12 by Friday, the 13th of January, 2012. That's the Friday after the
13 adjournment. And I emphasise that we expect a joint report. If anything
14 flows from that, we would see.
15 The next two items, I would invite Judge Delvoie to address.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 And the next order is about the joint notice on change of status
18 of concern confidential exhibits.
19 On the 11th of November, 2011, the Prosecution and Defence
20 jointly filed a notice of compliance with the oral order of the
21 9th of September whereby the Chamber had directed the parties to review
22 the confidential exhibits in this case for a possible change of status.
23 The parties agreed that 95 exhibits that were admitted under seal
24 in the course of trial can now be made public. The parties further
25 proposed making public the prior testimony of Predrag Radic and
1 Stevan Todorovic, admitted pursuant to Rule 92 quater, since neither
2 witness enjoy any protective measures. Prosecution additionally offered
3 to redact certain portions from the testimony of Predrag Radic that were
4 taken in private session.
5 Having reviewed the exhibits proposed for change of status
6 against other relevant evidence, the Trial Chamber agrees with the
7 parties with respect to all 95 exhibits, including the transcripts of the
8 prior testimony of both witnesses. Additionally, the Chamber directs the
9 Prosecution to redact the portions of the testimony of Predrag Radic that
10 were taken in private session. It is further directed to upload the duly
11 redacted version in e-court and inform the Registry and the Chamber
13 The Trial Chamber instructs the Registry to lift the confidential
14 status of the 95 exhibits listed in the Annexes A and B of the notice and
15 mark them as publicly admitted.
16 The fifth matter is that of the numbering of adjudicated facts
17 tendered by the Stanisic Defence of which the Trial Chamber took judicial
18 notice by its decision of 29 June 2011.
19 The Chamber had previously taken judicial notice of adjudicated
20 facts proposed inter alia by the Defence in its decision of 1 April 2010,
21 wherein these facts were enumerated alphabetically from the letter A
22 through to letter S. When taking judicial notice of a further 52 facts
23 tendered by the Stanisic Defence on 29 June 2011, the Chamber did not
24 clarify their enumeration. In order to avoid possible misunderstanding
25 over facts already admitted by their numerical reference, the
1 Trial Chamber reassigns alphabetical enumeration to the 52 facts admitted
2 by its decision of 29 June 2011.
3 Accordingly, fact number 1 in the 29 June decision will be
4 referred to as T; fact number 2 as U; fact number 9 as V; and so on, till
5 fact number 14, which will be referred to as fact Z. Thereafter,
6 fact number 15 will be AA; 16 will be AB; 20 will be AC; and so on.
7 From fact number 56 will commence the next set, to be referred to
8 as BA; 57 as BB; and so on, till fact number 83, which will be referred
9 to as adjudicated fact BL.
10 Paragraph 390 from the Simic trial judgement admitted in lieu of
11 proposed fact 19 will be BM. Paragraph 508 from the same judgement in
12 lieu of proposed fact 26 will be BN. And, finally, paragraph 86 from the
13 Stakic trial judgement admitted in lieu of proposed fact 82 will be
14 referred to as BO.
15 We hope that this is clear. And if not, please contact the
16 Chamber through its legal support staff for further clarification.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Judge Harhoff -- Judge Delvoie. I'm
20 We move next to the matter of scheduling for early in the new
22 We remind the parties that we are currently scheduled to sit from
23 the 10th to 20th of January during which time, as I indicated earlier, we
24 expect to hear the two rebuttal witnesses. We are currently seized of
25 the Prosecution's third and fourth motions to present evidence in
1 rebuttal, decisions on which will obviously impact further scheduling.
2 Similarly, the Trial Chamber is monitoring the developments in the case
3 of Rasic and the case of Haradinaj which may also affect our sittings.
4 And depending on the outcome of all of these matters, we will, of course,
5 provide further instructions as soon as we are able to.
6 The next item is the matter of Chamber witnesses. And the
7 Chamber notes that the Prosecution has raised this matter, that is why it
8 was included in the agenda. However, to state the obvious, as the
9 Chamber has not yet heard all the evidence in this case, it is reluctant
10 at this point to go into any detail on the subject. And when a decision
11 is taken on any Chamber witnesses, it will duly and promptly communicate
12 it to the parties with all the necessary procedural instructions.
13 I invite Judge Harhoff to deal with item 8.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
15 The next matter is the interesting matter of the projected time
16 for filing of final trial briefs.
17 With regard to this question as to how long after the conclusion
18 of all the evidence will parties have to file their final briefs, the
19 Chamber stresses that work on the final briefs should be done on a
20 continuous basis. Considering that following the summer recess we
21 haven't been sitting in this case every week and that this practice will
22 continue for some time into the new year, the Chamber considers that the
23 parties will have had some time already to work on their final trial
24 briefs. It will therefore expect the parties to be prepared to file
25 their respective final trial briefs not too long after the conclusion of
1 all the evidence. The exact time will, of course, be determined in due
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Judge Harhoff.
4 Mr. Zecevic, the next three items listed, as 9, 10, and 11, were
5 all suggested by you, so we would invite you to address these matters.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
7 The first matter, Your Honours, is the video exhibits. I'm happy
8 to inform the Trial Chamber that we have reached an agreement between the
9 parties and the Registry, and the Registry disclosed to us the copies of
10 the video exhibits already exhibited in this case. So far we have been
11 able to find out that four of these exhibits, video exhibits, are not
12 properly working and we are addressing this matter. Also, one of the
13 matters that we raised, that the video does not correspond to the
14 transcript of the exhibit, has been resolved in the meantime. And I
15 propose that we inform the Trial Chamber by 13th of January or the
16 10th of January about the outcome of that situation. And in case we
17 would need any assistance of the Trial Chamber, we can -- we can address
18 it after we -- after the break, Your Honours.
19 That's --
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: That's the first matter.
22 The second matter, Your Honours, or the matter number 10 on the
23 agenda, is update on the CHS with Defence Excel spreadsheet with
24 hyperlinks to narrative.
25 Following Honourable Judge Delvoie's suggestion from last
1 Thursday, we explored the possibility and we will -- Your Honours, at
2 this point I'm not hundred per cent sure how it will look like, but it
3 will be -- there is going to be a hyperlink. But in any case,
4 Your Honours, please be assured that the Defence of Stanisic will do its
5 utmost to make it as easy, accessible for the review of your -- the
6 Judges, as possible. And therefore, at this point I can say only that,
7 that it will be hyperlinked to the narrative document, and we will try to
8 make it as clear and as accessible as possible.
9 Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: The third thing, Your Honours, is a matter
12 concerning the document which is a Defence document, 65 ter 820D1.
13 Your Honours, this document was offered in our bar table motion.
14 And in Your Honours' decision, paragraph 24 of the decision, the -- and I
15 will quote:
16 "Accordingly, the Trial Chamber finds that the document as
17 tendered by the Defence lacks sufficient reliability for admission into
18 evidence. In this regard, the Trial Chamber considers that given the
19 relevance and the potential probative value it will permit the Defence to
20 tender the original or official archived version of this record of
21 remarks and proposals of the HDZ in order to satisfy the reliability
22 requirement for admission into evidence."
23 Based on the leave that -- that the -- that the Trial Chamber
24 gave us, Your Honours, we approached the Republic of Croatia and asked
25 them to provide us with the original of the document or the archived
1 version of the document, as suggested by Your Honours in the decision.
2 What happened is that the Republic of Croatia, and we are grateful for
3 that, responded and provided us with four -- four articles from
4 newspapers. One is from Politika Belgrade Daily; two are from
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina; and one is from Croatia, all dated between the
6 22nd February and 29th of February, 1992, addressing this concrete
7 matter, which is the position of HDZ concerning the Cutileiro Plan.
8 Now, I spoke my friend Mr. Hannis about this. I provided the
9 copies of the documentation which was provided to us by Croatia, the
10 translation of the documents, and I asked Mr. Hannis if he will
11 withdraw -- withdrew his objection, and he said no. So the objection is
12 still there. Your Honours, there -- well, I'm afraid there isn't much
13 more than we can do at this point, I mean, because there is no other way
14 we can -- we can get the archived version or the original. We asked the
15 Republic of Croatia, and this is what we received, so --
16 Therefore, we are in your hands, Your Honours, on this matter.
17 And I believe that is the last item that we -- that we -- that we
18 suggested. I still have some additional --
19 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... Mr. Hannis seemed to
20 make a comment on this last matter.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, sorry.
22 JUDGE HALL: Is there something that you wished to add,
23 Mr. Hannis?
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I did continue with my objection.
25 Your order was to tender the original or official archived version of
1 this record of the remarks of the HDZ.
2 My objection to the original exhibit was that it was an excerpt
3 from a book by Mr. Tudjman, and it's cited as its authority some
4 newspaper or magazine source "Vjesnik," V-j-e-s-n-i-k, on the
5 26th of February. What Mr. Zecevic is adding now is three other
6 newspaper articles from three different newspapers. But it's not an
7 official source. And as I read the newspaper articles, it appears that
8 HDZ's proposal was submitted to the negotiators in Lisbon. It must exist
9 somewhere in an official capacity. Maybe the inquiry needs to be
10 directed to that body, rather than to Croatia. But this is no better
11 than what we had before. It's three other newspaper articles about the
12 event. And I don't think it meets the reliability requirement that you
13 were seeking to be met when you ordered that it be an original or
14 official archived version of the record, not a media account about it.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber would rise and return in ten minutes.
17 --- Break taken at 10.11 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.20 a.m.
19 JUDGE HALL: With respect to the last matter raised by
20 Mr. Zecevic and to which Mr. Hannis responded, it seems to us, at this
21 point, that Mr. Zecevic may, if he wishes, file a motion inviting the
22 Chamber to look at what material he has been able -- his inquiries have
23 been able to produce so far, and we would take it from there. But the --
24 as presently advised, the Chamber sees no reason why it should revise
25 what it has already said on this. But we are appreciative of the
1 difficulties which Mr. Zecevic has apparently faced and we'd see whether,
2 as I said, see where we go.
3 Thank you.
4 You had another matter to raise, Mr. Zecevic.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, very much.
6 Your Honours, the last item on the agenda are any other matters,
7 business, and there are two things I would like to raise with
8 Your Honours. I informed the Legal Officers and the Registry and our
9 friends from the Office of the Prosecutor about that before we started.
10 I'm sorry we didn't -- it just came up late last night.
11 The first matter, Your Honours, is that we noticed when reviewing
12 the exhibits that the law library document contains -- please bear with
13 me for a second.
14 Thank you, I'm sorry.
15 Law library contains eight documents where no translation has
16 been uploaded in e-court. I have the list of the documents. And if the
17 Trial Chamber requires me, I can read them on the record, or perhaps we
18 can --
19 JUDGE HALL: I don't think that would be necessary, Mr. Zecevic.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yeah. I think we could communicate that by mail.
21 And what I propose - I informed Mr. Hannis, and we are already
22 working on that, because, as Your Honours will remember, it was a joint
23 motion between the Defence and the Office of the Prosecutor - and our
24 proposal is that we re-address and inform the Trial Chamber about the
25 outcome on the 10th or, let's say, by the 13th of January next year about
1 the outcome of this situation, and we will -- I'm positive we will
2 resolve the situation and get the translation in order and upload them in
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you. I believe we previously indicated
5 that we appreciate that the law library is a very elastic entity which
6 would only solidify probably at the close of submissions, so we expect
7 these ongoing exercises to occur.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, and thank you very much,
10 Your Honours.
11 And the last thing, Your Honours, it came to our attention that
12 there was a decision on a -- on a request by -- by Office of the
13 Prosecutor for admission of witness evidence under Rule 92 ter.
14 I believe, maybe just if we can go into the private session for a
15 second because it's a confidential document.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we go into private session.
17 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 The Prosecution's request to make confidential the
20 Trial Chamber's decision declining to admit the evidence of
21 Predrag Radulovic pursuant to Rule 92 ter was made specifically for the
22 period prior to his testimony. The witness, having now been heard in
23 public without any protective measure, the Chamber lifts the
24 confidentiality of its decision denying the Prosecution's motion for
25 admission of evidence of Predrag Radulovic pursuant to 92 ter issued on
1 the 1st of April, 2011. And the Chamber instructs the Registrar to
2 recirculate the decision as public. Thank you.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE HALL: Are there any other matters that counsel wish to
6 MR. HANNIS: Yes, if I may, Your Honour. I wanted to go back and
7 ask a couple of questions about some of the matters you already
8 addressed, and I did have one additional matter. The additional matter I
9 had was in reviewing our records to see if there were any outstanding
10 motions that had not been ruled on as far as we could determine. We had
11 filed a second supplemental bar table motion back on the
12 20th of September, 2011. This related to certain ethnic maps. I thought
13 Mr. Zecevic was going to raise this. But as far as I know, that's still
14 outstanding, and we just wanted to inquire about that.
15 JUDGE HALL: It will not long be outstanding, Mr. Hannis.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
17 Then with regard to Chamber witnesses. I understand that you
18 haven't made a decision on that yet. I did want to request that the
19 Court, if you decide to call one or more Chamber witnesses, we would ask
20 that you bear a couple of things in mind that relate to scheduling and
21 also just as to procedure with such witnesses. If you do, I know from
22 past experience in one trial where it happened, it evolved that it was a
23 good policy that once you made that announcement that you were going to
24 call witnesses, that the parties be advised that they should have no
25 contact with such witnesses and that the witnesses themselves should be
1 advised that they shouldn't have any contact with either party or
2 representatives of the party just to ensure the integrity of what
3 evidence they might bring when they come to testify for you.
4 Also, then we would have questions about the order of evidence,
5 whether, in the one example I know of, the Trial Chamber asked all the
6 questions then the Prosecution was permitted to cross-examine and then
7 the Defence were permitted to cross-examine. That seemed to be a logical
8 order. But that's something we'd ask you to think about --
9 JUDGE HALL: Well, as I said, the procedural incidents of the
10 Chamber witnesses, should we decide to call them, we would, of course,
11 inform the parties as to how we deal with those issues. We are very much
12 alive to those concerns, Mr. Hannis.
13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. And in terms of timing,
14 that parties are given sufficient notice prior to those witnesses coming
15 so that we can make adequate preparations to do an efficient job of our
16 cross-examination and finding any documents that we think might ought to
17 be shown to that person.
18 And also, that the timing of that would relate to the timing for
19 the filing of the final brief. I understand the current order is "not
20 too long," which is sufficiently ambiguous to keep us all happy, I think,
21 at this point. But I know in the other case where we had that experience
22 with Trial Chamber witnesses being called, because of difficulties in the
23 reluctance of a particular witness to come, and getting the local state
24 to assist in making him appear, it resulted that we had a final brief
25 deadline that pushed right up to, I think, the week that that last
1 witness testified. In the end, we did get an extension for final briefs
2 so we could incorporate his evidence, which was substantial and very
3 difficult to incorporate at that late date. So we would ask you to keep
4 that in mind in terms of scheduling too, that there be a sufficient time
5 between the last bit of evidence, whoever that comes from, and the
6 final --
7 JUDGE HALL: As you say that, Mr. Hannis, I'm reflecting that
8 we're in week -- in month 28 of what promised to be an 18-month case. So
9 we will try to adhere to that 18-month time-frame in terms of what we do
10 as regards Chamber witnesses.
11 MR. HANNIS: All right. Thank you, Your Honour. I think ... oh,
12 there was one other thing I think I was requested to raise by the
14 In terms of the CHS, the Prosecution has been filing some
15 supplemental information as we get additional documents related to the
16 POD. And in the past we have filed CDs containing the information about
17 those new additional death certificates, et cetera. I understand that
18 causes a problem in the Registry in terms of, sort of, complicating
19 unnecessary the filing and the records.
20 So I would like to ask if we can withdraw our last CD that we
21 filed. And in the future, if we have supplements, we will file them not
22 in the form of a CD.
23 I hope that addresses the Registry Officer's concerns.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 We're advised that the final exhibit will be on a CD. But
2 between now and then, things would -- I don't know how to express it, but
3 there are steps between now and then. Let me put it that way.
4 MR. HANNIS: I think I understand, and we will co-ordinate with
5 the Registry on that.
6 The last thing, Your Honour, was concerning the MFI exhibits. I
7 think we have now in date of the 13th of January by which to inform you
8 of the ones that we're able to agree upon. But I anticipate there may
9 not -- there may be some that we're not able to reach agreement upon.
10 And at that time or shortly thereafter if we have some that we feel,
11 because of what has come in in the last months since the previous ruling
12 on bar table motions, if we have an argument to make why something that
13 is still MFI might now rise to the level of being admitted as an exhibit,
14 we would do so after we determined whether or not we're able to reach
15 agreement. If that's agreeable.
16 JUDGE HALL: That I indicated earlier, that we are requesting or
17 directing counsel to file a joint report. The Chamber is deliberately
18 not anticipating what the fruit of your work will be. We'll see where we
19 are when we see the report.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, may I?
22 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Yes.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Just one matter, because according to your -- to
24 Your Honours' order or leave for us to file our response on the CHS as a
25 separate submission, we said that we will file that after we received the
1 final version of the -- of the document from the Office of the
2 Prosecutor. And if I correctly remember, the deadline was the
3 10th of January for the Prosecution to file that final CD with all the --
4 all the additional materials that they have gathered so far.
5 So I would just -- I would just like to verify that, that the
6 10th of January is the deadline for the Office of the Prosecution to file
7 that last CD, and then we will be able to -- to provide our response.
8 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
10 As of today, the order extant gives -- sets the deadline as the
11 10th of January. We don't know what tomorrow will bring.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I understand.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, do you have any matters to raise?
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I just like to inform
15 Trial Chamber that Zupljanin Defence will not file the bar table motion.
16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
17 Well, we thank counsel for their assistance in terms of
18 clarifying all of these matters, which, as I said, the purpose of this
19 session is to smooth the way for the final phase of this trial.
20 And we will reconvene on the 10th of January. And I take the
21 opportunity to wish all the parties and, indeed, everyone present,
22 interpreters, the security staff, the accused, and everyone else, the
23 safe break and that you enjoy the season, however you choose to do so,
24 and that we -- more importantly, or most importantly, that we return in
25 January rejuvenated, refreshed, and battle-ready to complete this
2 We adjourn.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.38 a.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day
5 of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.