1. 1 --- Wednesday, 17th June, 1998

    2 (In open session)

    3 --- On commencing at 1.36 p.m.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, ladies and

    5 gentlemen. Good afternoon to the interpreters and the

    6 technicians. Are you prepared? Are you ready for your

    7 very difficult task before you?

    8 For the record, shall we introduce the affair

    9 before the Chamber. First of all, Mr. Mark Dubuisson,

    10 would you please inform the Chamber of the case before

    11 it.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number

    13 IT-95-14/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.

    15 I believe we are beginning with somewhat of a technical

    16 difficulty, because my colleague and I, Judge Vohrah

    17 and myself, have nothing on our screens, and this also

    18 applies to Mr. Mark Dubuisson. And the Defence and the

    19 Prosecution, does the Prosecution have something on its

    20 screen?

    21 MR. MEDDEGODA: Yes, Your Honours, the

    22 transcript does appear on the screens.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, you are lucky. You

    24 are very lucky. And the Defence? No? The Defence has

    25 nothing on its screen.

  2. 1 MR. JOKA: We have nothing either.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, in any case, we can

    3 continue while the technicians try to resolve the

    4 situation.

    5 So the second thing would be to allow for the

    6 Prosecution to introduce itself.

    7 MR. MEDDEGODA: Good afternoon, Your

    8 Honours. I am Anura Meddegoda. Mr. Grant Niemann

    9 appears with me and Ms. Erasmus for the Prosecution.

    10 This afternoon, Your Honours, Mr. Niemann is on his

    11 feet before another Trial Chamber, and he may be here

    12 as soon as time permits, Your Honours.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In any case, he will be

    14 here in spirit.

    15 MR. MEDDEGODA: He would certainly.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, Your

    17 Honours, I am Goran Mikulicic, and with Mr. Joka I

    18 appear for the Defence.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. We are noting

    20 now that we still have nothing on our screens. And my

    21 colleague Judge Nieto Navia is also lucky, because he

    22 has something on his screen. I see the problem has

    23 been overcome. Let us then continue.

    24 Mr. Mikulicic, I believe that we are

    25 continuing with Madam Cosic. So please bring Madam

  3. 1 Cosic into the room.

    2 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, if you will

    3 allow me before we resume. I should like to raise

    4 another question which is related to one of the earlier

    5 days of the trial. You will remember that

    6 Dr. Bilandzic was called as a witness for Defence.

    7 Professor Bilandzic identified some maps, which were

    8 admitted as evidence, as D15 and D16. You will

    9 remember that on the back of these maps there was

    10 untranslated text. The Defence should like to state

    11 explicitly that this text and part of what appears on

    12 the back of these maps does not tender as evidence, nor

    13 does it consider it as a relevant document. We tender

    14 as evidence only the maps themselves on the front page

    15 of those sheets.

    16 I discussed it with my honourable colleague,

    17 Mr. Meddegoda, and I believe he concurs with this

    18 interpretation, but I should nevertheless like to hear

    19 him say so.

    20 MR. MEDDEGODA: I am certainly thankful to

    21 Mr. Mikulicic, Your Honours, for the concession that he

    22 has made, and that he is not relying on the text on the

    23 back of those documents, D15 and D16, as part of the

    24 Defence case. Thank you.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe that we are all

  4. 1 in agreement on this issue. Therefore, there is no

    2 problem. Would you please have the witness brought in,

    3 Mr. Mikulicic.

    4 (The witness entered court)


    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, Madam

    7 Cosic. Do you hear me?

    8 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. Yes, I do.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Would you please come

    10 closer to the microphone. There you are. Yesterday

    11 you took a solemn declaration to speak the truth, the

    12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Are you in the

    13 same position today, Madam?

    14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, you will

    16 continue to respond to the questions put to you by

    17 Mr. Mikulicic. Thank you.

    18 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.

    19 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour

    20 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    21 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Cosic.

    22 A. Good afternoon.

    23 Q. Here we meet again in this Courtroom.

    24 Yesterday you answered a number of questions and stated

    25 various things. Today we shall have some more

  5. 1 questions, not too long, and I should like to ask you

    2 to be so kind and answer them to the best of your

    3 recollection.

    4 A. Thank you.

    5 Q. Mrs. Cosic, yesterday you said that on one

    6 occasion you went on an official visit to the Kaonik

    7 facility to extend medical help to a patient; is that

    8 true?

    9 A. It is.

    10 Q. Do you remember how long you were there?

    11 A. Only as long as it took to give the

    12 injection.

    13 Q. Well, how long would that be?

    14 A. Five minutes.

    15 Q. So all in all, you spent five minutes in

    16 Kaonik; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, it is.

    18 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Cosic, yesterday you told us

    19 about the general impression left by the patients who

    20 came to the health centre in Busovaca from Kaonik.

    21 Could you tell us if, apart from patients from Kaonik,

    22 some other patients also came to the health centre?

    23 By this I mean civilians from the town, soldiers. Were

    24 there any such patients?

    25 A. Yes, there were.

  6. 1 Q. Mrs. Cosic, you don't have to bend towards

    2 the microphone. It is quite sensitive. Did you have

    3 an opportunity to offer medical help to HVO soldiers?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. What was their general state of health and

    6 what did they look like? Were they fit. I mean the

    7 HVO soldiers.

    8 A. Well, they were -- they looked -- there were

    9 among them some wounded, there were dead, others were

    10 dirty, tired, their hair uncut, unshaved. That's more

    11 or less what they looked like.

    12 Q. Did you notice, perhaps, some other ailments

    13 among HVO soldiers, perhaps some skin disease or

    14 something?

    15 A. Well, no.

    16 Q. Mrs. Cosic, if I ask you now to compare the

    17 appearance of HVO soldiers and the appearance of Kaonik

    18 patients, what would you say? Who left a better

    19 impression on you, HVO soldiers or patients from

    20 Kaonik?

    21 A. Well, I think there was a difference. I

    22 mean, these did not look so bad as those who came like

    23 that, dirty. These were -- did not look like that,

    24 those who came. I did not have the impression that

    25 they were so dirty and unshaven. Perhaps somebody here

  7. 1 and there, a little bit, but not too much. I did not

    2 notice that personally.

    3 Q. Mrs. Cosic, let us clarify it for the

    4 record. When you say; "these were not too dirty and

    5 too unkempt that you did not notice it." Whom did you

    6 mean?

    7 A. I meant those who came from the prison.

    8 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Cosic, you said that in the

    9 waiting room of the health centre patients from Kaonik

    10 and other patients, civilian patients, or HVO soldiers,

    11 found themselves together in the waiting room at

    12 times. Did ever any incidents happen in -- on such

    13 occasions?

    14 A. Well, I could not tell you anything

    15 particular, as far as I can remember. I remember that

    16 we took note of that, that we took care to avoid it,

    17 because there were people wounded and discontent, with

    18 a grudge against the situation, and we took care of

    19 that. And we tried to remove them so as to avoid it.

    20 Q. Mrs. Cosic, when you say that people were not

    21 happy about the situation, discontent with the

    22 situation, who did they bear the grudge against? A

    23 particular -- I mean the Croat population.

    24 A. Well, I cannot really say. I cannot say

    25 exactly, you know, the situation.

  8. 1 Q. Mrs. Cosic, only a few questions more. If I

    2 remember it correctly, you said that you lived in the

    3 Village of Skradno, you used to live there in the

    4 village?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. How long have you been living in the village

    7 of Skradno?

    8 A. Eighteen years.

    9 Q. Do you perhaps remember if during the

    10 conflict there was any fighting in the Village of

    11 Skradno?

    12 A. No. No. In the village itself there was no

    13 fighting.

    14 Q. Did you hear that, perhaps, fire was

    15 exchanged somewhere outside of the village, around the

    16 hills?

    17 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes. But I could not say

    18 where it was, because it came from outside, from above,

    19 from a certain height. And I could not, because I had

    20 -- I was under labour obligations and I could not

    21 really determine the situation. But one could hear the

    22 fire.

    23 Q. I see. Mrs. Cosic, I will show you now an

    24 air photograph, and I will -- and I shall ask you to

    25 comment upon it. Meanwhile, I have to ask Mr. Usher to

  9. 1 --

    2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be document D20.


    4 Q. Mrs. Cosic, will you please look carefully at

    5 this photograph and tell us if you can recognise the

    6 aerial photograph from the air?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Mrs. Cosic, if I told you now that this was

    9 part of the Municipality of Busovaca, which also

    10 includes your village, could you look at your village

    11 on this photograph. Take a good look.

    12 A. No. No. I really can't see my way around.

    13 Q. Thank you very much. We do not need this

    14 photograph any more.

    15 Your Lordships, we have no more questions for

    16 the witness for the Defence, Mrs. Cosic. We have no

    17 more questions.

    18 Sorry, we should only like to tender this

    19 document, this air photograph, as evidence, as D20.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No objection,

    21 Mr. Meddegoda?

    22 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no objection, Your

    23 Honours.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. Madam Cosic,

    25 you have just answered questions put to you by

  10. 1 Mr. Mikulicic, and now you will answer questions put to

    2 you by Mr. Meddegoda, who may put to you -- is that

    3 true, Mr. Meddegoda, do you have any questions for this

    4 witness.

    5 MR. MEDDEGODA: A few questions, Your

    6 Honours. May I proceed, Your Honours?


    8 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda

    9 Q. Mrs. Cosic -- good afternoon, Mrs. Cosic.

    10 A. Good afternoon.

    11 Q. I will put to you a few questions on behalf

    12 of the Prosecution. You testified a while ago and said

    13 that when you went to Kaonik Prison, on the one and

    14 only occasion, you spent about five minutes in the

    15 prison premises; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And do you remember when you went to the

    18 Kaonik Prison, the day on which you went to the prison?

    19 A. No, I don't.

    20 Q. Do you have at least a recollection of the

    21 month in which you went to the prison?

    22 A. It was a long time ago. All I can say is

    23 that it could have been in February or perhaps March.

    24 It was rather cold.

    25 Q. And it was, as you testified yesterday, it

  11. 1 was in the night that you made this visit?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. You also testified yesterday that the purpose

    4 of the visit, and you also testified this morning, this

    5 afternoon, that the purpose of the visit was to

    6 administer the injection to a detainee at Kaonik

    7 Prison?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Now, could you please tell me the

    10 circumstances which necessitated you to go to the

    11 prison? How did you happen to go to the prison?

    12 A. Prior to that, Zlatko came with that one man

    13 from the prison, and the doctor examined him and they

    14 consulted each other. The doctor said his opinion, and

    15 I, or perhaps my colleague, I cannot remember, filed

    16 that -- I cannot remember exactly, because we

    17 alternated, but the doctor said, in my presence, he

    18 told Zlatko that, if necessary, he could call and that

    19 he would send a nurse to administer the appropriate

    20 therapy.

    21 Q. And what time was it when Zlatko -- when

    22 Mr. Aleksovski came to the health centre?

    23 A. They talked over the telephone.

    24 Q. Are you now saying that Mr. Aleksovski did

    25 not come to the health centre but spoke over the

  12. 1 telephone?

    2 A. Oh, no. The first time, the first time they

    3 agreed that, if need be, the doctor would again send a

    4 nurse, and then they spoke on the phone, that he was

    5 bad, and that the therapy prescribed by the doctor

    6 should continue.

    7 Q. What time was it when Mr. Aleksovski first

    8 came to the health centre that day?

    9 A. In the afternoon. I do not know the exact

    10 hour, but in the afternoon always.

    11 Q. Do you remember who examined the patient who

    12 was brought by Mr. Aleksovski?

    13 A. Dr. Stipac, Zvonmir Stipac.

    14 Q. And was there a record made of such

    15 observation, of the fact that Dr. Zvonmir Stipac

    16 examined that patient?

    17 A. Were put down on paper, all that came. We

    18 filled forms and everything, as we always do.

    19 Q. Were you present when the Dr. Stipac examined

    20 the patient?

    21 A. Not in the presence of examination. I filed

    22 it.

    23 Q. But you were not present at the time of

    24 examination. You only filed the -- whatever note was

    25 made by Dr. Stipac?

  13. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. So you did not know what transpired between

    3 Dr. Stipac and the patient who was brought from Kaonik?

    4 A. Why no.

    5 Q. Sorry, I do not think the -- thank you. And

    6 how long thereafter did you get the telephone call from

    7 the accused?

    8 A. I could not give you the exact time, but as

    9 far as I can remember, not long -- not much later.

    10 Perhaps an hour or two.

    11 Q. An hour, a few minutes?

    12 A. No, not minutes. Not minutes. One hour,

    13 perhaps two. It was a long time ago.

    14 Q. And whom did Mr. Aleksovski speak over the

    15 telephone?

    16 A. One of the medical workers. I don't know who

    17 answered the telephone, but this was then conveyed to

    18 the doctor. That is the kind of co-operation with us.

    19 I cannot really know who answered the telephone.

    20 Q. If you did not know who answered the

    21 telephone, how is it that you happened to go to the

    22 Kaonik prison that evening?

    23 A. But the doctor told me.

    24 Q. Which doctor?

    25 A. Yes.

  14. 1 Q. Who is the doctor who told you that?

    2 A. Dr. Zvonmir Stipac.

    3 Q. And did you know who the patient was you were

    4 going to see?

    5 A. No. Not the name.

    6 Q. And where in the Kaonik prison did you

    7 examine this patient?

    8 A. I did not examine him, I only administered

    9 the injection.

    10 Q. Where in Kaonik prison did you administer the

    11 injection to the patient?

    12 A. Excuse me?

    13 Q. Where in Kaonik prison did you administer the

    14 injection to this patient?

    15 A. In the prison, in a room. That room is --

    16 there was a passage, it was night-time, I do not

    17 remember properly. I did not stay long. To the left

    18 there was a room. There were guards and that man whom

    19 I had seen before in the health centre, that same man.

    20 Q. So you did not know the name of the patient

    21 to whom you went to administer the injection?

    22 A. Now I do not remember that name. And that

    23 doctor wrote out a prescription and on the basis of the

    24 prescription, I wrote it down and asked his name,

    25 but...

  15. 1 Q. Do you know whether such prescription is

    2 available in the health centre records now?

    3 A. I think so, yes, but I don't remember the

    4 name.

    5 Q. And that was the only occasion on which you

    6 were sent to Kaonik camp?

    7 A. Yes

    8 Q. Witness, you testified yesterday about an

    9 incident in Kacuni in January of 1993?

    10 A. Yes, yes.

    11 Q. And you said that in that incident, a person

    12 by the name of Ivica Petrovic got killed?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did you know Ivica Petrovic?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. How did you know him?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. How did you know him?

    19 A. I think that he was born in the same village

    20 as my mother.

    21 Q. And do you know what the city was?

    22 A. I think he was a Croat, but I didn't know his

    23 people.

    24 Q. He was also a police officer at the time?

    25 A. I don't know that. Before, before the

  16. 1 conflict, I knew of Ivica. As for his obligations, I

    2 didn't know anything about that.

    3 Q. Witness, you also said that in the health

    4 centre, you and your colleagues treated persons from

    5 all ethnic background, Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks

    6 without any kind of discrimination or differentiation,

    7 is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Do you know whether -- the ethnicities of the

    10 persons who were brought from Kaonik camp were to be

    11 treated at the Busovaca Health Centre?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Did you know any of them personally, persons

    14 who were brought from the camp?

    15 A. Only by sight. I didn't know their names.

    16 Q. And were there people from your village who

    17 were brought, or from the neighbouring villages, whom

    18 you knew by sight?

    19 A. While I was working, no.

    20 Q. Do you know whether there were any Serbs

    21 detained in the Kaonik camp?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Do you know whether there were any Croats

    24 detained in the Kaonik camp?

    25 A. No.

  17. 1 Q. And do you know whether there were all

    2 exclusively Bosniaks who were detained in the Kaonik

    3 camp?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Witness, also yesterday in the course of your

    6 testimony, you said that most detainees from Kaonik who

    7 were brought to the health centre complained mostly of

    8 stomach disorders as a rule.

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do you know whether detainees with injuries

    11 like contusions or abrasions or bruises or even

    12 lacerations were brought to the health centre for

    13 treatment from the Kaonik camp?

    14 A. No, no, no.

    15 Q. You do not know that or you say that there

    16 were such prisoners were not brought to the camp?

    17 A. No, I mean I don't know that personally.

    18 Q. And when prisoners were brought from Kaonik

    19 camp to the health centre, you said that they were

    20 first brought to the waiting room.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And you also said that Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski

    23 would then come into the examination room and talk to a

    24 doctor or to a nurse saying that he had brought a

    25 detainee?

  18. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Were there occasions on which Mr. Aleksovski

    3 spoke to you personally when he brought a detainee from

    4 the camp?

    5 A. Well, we would only greet each other, that

    6 was all.

    7 Q. Yes, my question is were there occasions on

    8 which Mr. Aleksovski spoke to you personally when he

    9 brought prisoners from the camp?

    10 A. It was not necessary. He would simply bring

    11 in someone. If the intervention was needed, he would

    12 wait for the examination to be completed by the

    13 doctor. Sometimes I would tell him to wait, to Zlatko,

    14 and to the person whom he had brought in. Sometimes,

    15 if the doctor was available immediately, he would first

    16 talk to the doctor.

    17 Q. And do you remember Zlatko talking to the

    18 doctor, an instance in which Zlatko Aleksovski spoke to

    19 the doctor?

    20 A. I do not remember any specific situation,

    21 incident.

    22 Q. I am asking you whether you remember Zlatko

    23 Aleksovski speaking to the doctor upon bringing a

    24 patient to the health centre.

    25 A. It is not quite clear to me, I don't

  19. 1 understand which time period you have in mind.

    2 Q. I'll clarify my question. Do you remember

    3 seeing Zlatko Aleksovski talking to a doctor whenever

    4 he brought a patient or a prisoner from the Kaonik

    5 camp?

    6 A. Well, yes, I would fill in the form or

    7 perhaps I would be working in the adjacent room, the

    8 doors would be open. I was perhaps administering some

    9 therapy or doing some other kind of work and Zlatko

    10 would be speaking to the doctor. He would usually tell

    11 him that he had brought in someone and that that person

    12 was supposed to be examined and that was all.

    13 Q. Would he not say what the person was

    14 suffering from or complaining of?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. So Zlatko Aleksovski would say what the

    17 person was complaining of or suffering from?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And what else would he say to the doctor?

    20 A. I don't remember.

    21 Q. And were such observations, was the medical

    22 history so given to the doctor, was it recorded in any

    23 of the hospital records?

    24 A. Yes, a record was made. We kept records and

    25 we still do. Each name of the person brought in would

  20. 1 be put down on paper, including therapy that was

    2 administered and the code for the diagnosis. There may

    3 have been cases where we didn't do everything, but it

    4 was customary to put everything on paper.

    5 Q. Did you personally maintain such records or

    6 make such notes of what Mr. Aleksovski said to the

    7 doctor or to the nurses?

    8 A. Only the name and the surname of the patient

    9 would be put down and the therapy that was

    10 recommended. Me and my colleagues, sometimes Zlatko,

    11 but we did the same with everybody else.

    12 Q. Yes, I understand that, Mrs. Cosic. But the

    13 history that was given to the doctor or to you or to

    14 the nurses, to the other nurses, was not recorded on

    15 the medical record?

    16 A. Well, we didn't use medical cards at that

    17 time because the services that were rendered were

    18 emergencies, so we would simply have forms where we

    19 would put down the code of the ailment, therapy that

    20 was administered and the name and the surname of the

    21 patient at that time.

    22 Q. So even on the medical form you would not

    23 record that?

    24 A. Medical form, we didn't have any medical

    25 forms at that time.

  21. 1 Q. But you said a while ago there was a medical

    2 form on which you recorded the name and the therapy

    3 that was administered and record of the ailment, didn't

    4 you?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And on that medical form, did you not record

    7 what was said by Mr. Aleksovski about the patient, what

    8 the patient was suffering from or what he was

    9 complaining of?

    10 A. No, only the code.

    11 Q. Did you consider it important to write it

    12 down on a medical form, the patient's medical history?

    13 A. Well, it's the doctor who does that. I would

    14 simply fill in the necessary information.

    15 Q. As far as you are aware, was it done by a

    16 doctor whenever Mr. Aleksovski narrated the medical

    17 history or the causes of complaint?

    18 A. The doctor probably thought that it was

    19 necessary to put down the code only because the code

    20 would indicate the illness in question.

    21 Q. Now, Mrs. Cosic, did you speak with any of

    22 the detainees whom you treated in the Busovaca Health

    23 Centre?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. You did not consider it important to talk to

  22. 1 the patients, to find out what their problems were?

    2 A. The doctor would conduct the examination and

    3 I would -- I was in charge of administering the

    4 appropriate therapy.

    5 Q. In the absence of the doctor, have you

    6 administered medication to any of the detainees who

    7 were brought from the camp?

    8 A. In the absence of the doctor, no.

    9 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no further questions,

    10 Your Honour, in cross-examination.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic, do you have

    12 any additional questions?

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, just one

    14 question for purpose of clarification.

    15 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulcic

    16 Q. Ms. Cosic, my learned colleague from the

    17 Prosecution asked you how it was that the doctor knew

    18 what the health condition of the patient was and what

    19 he complained of and you told him that Mr. Aleksovski

    20 would tell the doctor what the patient was suffering

    21 from, is that correct?

    22 A. Mr. Aleksovski would only say that he had

    23 brought the patient and then the doctor would usher the

    24 patient in the surgery. He would examine the patient.

    25 And on the basis of the examination, he would give his

  23. 1 diagnosis. And Zlatko Aleksovski would simply announce

    2 that the patient was complaining of such and such a

    3 disorder.

    4 Q. I have understood that, thank you. Just one

    5 question, Mrs. Cosic. The patient who was brought in,

    6 was it possible for him to state his opinion on what he

    7 was suffering from?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did you see or hear that personally, did you

    10 see detainees from Kaonik say that in front of the

    11 doctor?

    12 A. Yes, I did.

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, no further

    14 questions from the Defence.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Cosic, I have a

    16 question for you.

    17 Examination by Judge Rodrigues.

    18 Q. Is it true or not that you also attended to

    19 HVO soldiers as well as detainees from Kaonik?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. It is true, okay. True or false, did Mr.

    22 Aleksovski accompany at times some of the patients and

    23 that once he appeared in civilian clothing and other

    24 times in military clothing, is that true or false?

    25 A. Yes.

  24. 1 Q. Therefore, it is true that Mr. Aleksovski

    2 would often wear military clothing?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Therefore, you could identify the soldiers of

    5 the HVO because they were wearing military clothing, is

    6 that true or not?

    7 A. No, not because of that.

    8 Q. How were you able to identify the HVO

    9 soldiers? How did you know they were soldiers?

    10 A. Well, we didn't exactly knew that they were

    11 soldiers. For them, they were all patients.

    12 Q. Yes, fine. But soldiers or some soldiers

    13 wore military uniforms, did they not?

    14 A. Yes, yes.

    15 Q. Therefore my question is as follows: On

    16 those occasions when Mr. Aleksovski would wear military

    17 uniforms, what was the appearance of these military

    18 uniforms in relation to those uniforms worn by HVO

    19 soldiers? Were they similar? Were they the same? How

    20 would you answer that question? Do you understand the

    21 question?

    22 A. I think I do understand your question, I'll

    23 try to answer your question. Sometimes he would wear a

    24 camouflage uniform, but that uniform was not different

    25 from other uniforms that much. I mean this is not

  25. 1 something that I was able to observe at the time.

    2 Q. I see. Then your answer suggests that the

    3 military clothing worn by Mr. Aleksovski were the same

    4 as those worn by HVO soldiers, am I correct in my

    5 summary or not?

    6 A. I didn't notice whether it was the same or

    7 different. All I knew was that Aleksovski had a

    8 camouflage uniform and sometimes he would also wear

    9 civilian clothes. As for the HVO soldiers, I couldn't

    10 know that they were HVO soldiers because at that time

    11 they were dressed in what they could find. I couldn't

    12 notice that and as for Zlatko, I knew what kind of

    13 uniform he was wearing.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, Madam Cosic, you

    15 have just completed your testimony here before the

    16 International Criminal Tribunal. The Chamber thanks

    17 you for appearing before it and we wish you a pleasant

    18 return trip to your country. Thank you.

    19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    20 (The witness withdrew)

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic, shall we

    22 continue?

    23 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

    24 The Defence would like to call witness Zorka

    25 Ivancevic.

  26. 1 (The witness entered court)

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, do you hear

    3 me? You will now read the solemn declaration which the

    4 court usher has presented to you.

    5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak

    6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated, madam.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Are you comfortable,

    9 Madam?

    10 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you.

    11 THE COURT: You will now respond to questions

    12 put to you by Mr. Mikulicic, who is seated there.

    13 Thank you.


    15 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    16 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Ivancevic. I am

    17 defending Mr. Aleksovski in these proceedings, and I

    18 have some questions for you. And I should like to ask

    19 you to answer them to the best of your recollection.

    20 Will you please tell us, for the record, the date of

    21 your birth and the place of your birth?

    22 A. I was born on the 23rd of February, 1959, in

    23 Busovaca.

    24 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, what is your ethnic origin?

    25 A. I am Croat by origin.

  27. 1 Q. Are you a practising believer?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Who is your faith?

    4 A. Roman Catholic.

    5 Q. Have you been living in Busovaca since your

    6 birth?

    7 A. Yes. Yes.

    8 Q. You still live there?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, could you tell us something

    11 about your education?

    12 A. I have come from the secondary, from the high

    13 medical school in Zenica. I was general stream.

    14 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, when it was you

    15 came out of school?

    16 A. Yes. It was June 1978.

    17 Q. And did you get a job immediately after that?

    18 A. Well, not immediately, but I did in 1980.

    19 Q. And where is it -- where was it?

    20 A. In the health centre in Busovaca.

    21 Q. And in the meantime, between 1980 to this

    22 day, have you held some other job or have you been on

    23 the staff of the Busovaca Health Centre all the time?

    24 A. All the time on the staff of the Busovaca

    25 Health Centre.

  28. 1 Q. And what were your duties in the health

    2 centre in Busovaca? Were they the same or different?

    3 A. Different.

    4 Q. Could you perhaps list them?

    5 A. Yes. Yes, I can. I was in the occupational

    6 medicine department, health care, emergency -- perhaps

    7 something else, but I cannot remember.

    8 Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Ivancevic, what was the

    9 ethnic composition of the staff in the health centre in

    10 Busovaca? What ethnicities did the personnel belong to

    11 in the former half of 1993, before the conflict?

    12 A. Yes, I do remember it. At that time we had

    13 about 65 to 70 people on the staff. Of them, I think

    14 that half of them were of Muslim origin. Roughly about

    15 the same percentage were Croats.

    16 Q. Were there some other ethnicities employed in

    17 the health centre at Busovaca?

    18 A. There were also a couple of Serb employees.

    19 Q. You said that there were about -- that the

    20 staff comprised some 65 to 70 people. So this was

    21 quite a large institution, wasn't it?

    22 A. Well, yes.

    23 Q. What area did it cover, I mean in terms of

    24 the services?

    25 A. The area of the Municipality of Busovaca. Do

  29. 1 you mean the number of inhabitants, the population?

    2 Well, at that time there were about 18.000 people.

    3 Q. Tell us, do you remember if the health centre

    4 in Busovaca had a department providing hospital

    5 treatment, where people could be hospitalised?

    6 A. No. No.

    7 Q. So, Mrs. Ivancevic, what did you do when a

    8 patient required hospitalisation? What hospital did

    9 you refer them to?

    10 A. We sent the patients to the hospital at Nova

    11 Bila.

    12 Q. What was that time period that you are

    13 referring your patients there?

    14 A. I mean 1993.

    15 Q. And before 1993?

    16 A. Before 1993 we referred our patients to the

    17 regional hospital in Zenica.

    18 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, do you remember if prior to

    19 1993, that is before the conflict broke out, if there

    20 was a hospital at Nova Bila before that?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Could you tell us why you stopped referring

    23 patients to the regional hospital in Zenica in 1993?

    24 A. Towards the end of January, 1993, the

    25 fighting began. This was called the Muslim-Croat

  30. 1 conflict. And at that time the road to Zenica was

    2 blocked so that we could not send our patients to the

    3 hospital in Zenica.

    4 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, when was the last

    5 time that you referred a patient to the Zenica

    6 hospital? Do you know that?

    7 A. I don't remember. I cannot remember exactly.

    8 Q. You mentioned the conflict which was in

    9 January '93. How was it, that is, what event triggered

    10 the beginning of the conflict? Do you know anything

    11 about that?

    12 A. Yes. On the 24th of January, '93, I was to

    13 be on duty at the emergency service as of 1900 hours,

    14 and on my way to work a colleague told me that two men

    15 had been killed in the locality called Kacuni. And

    16 indeed that afternoon, at 3.15, I heard a powerful

    17 detonation when I was still at home. And then when I

    18 got to my place of work I learned what had happened.

    19 So that was my impression. And then, on the 25th of

    20 January, '93, a genuine conflict began.

    21 Q. Do you remember who were those individuals

    22 who were killed in Kacuni?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Do you know their names?

    25 A. I know the name of one of them. That was

  31. 1 Ivica Petrovic. And the other person was an unknown

    2 body. To us all the while it was an unknown person.

    3 Q. Where did you know Ivica Petrovic from, since

    4 you said you knew his name?

    5 A. I knew Ivica Petrovic, I knew him personally,

    6 because he lived in Busovaca, so I knew him.

    7 Q. You said you lived in Busovaca. How far from

    8 the health centre?

    9 A. About three kilometres, more or less.

    10 Q. And at that time, while the fighting went on

    11 in Busovaca, how did you go to there? Was it safe?

    12 A. No, it was hazardous. At times I walked, I

    13 went on foot, and, well, you know, depended on the

    14 situation. Sometimes by car and sometimes on foot,

    15 three kilometres.

    16 Q. When the conflict began in the Municipality

    17 of Busovaca, you said it was towards the end of

    18 January, 1993, you said that the road was closed to

    19 Zenica. What about other roads? Were they passable?

    20 Could one take them to travel?

    21 A. As far as I can remember, the Zenica road was

    22 blocked. That I am positive. But at that time, I

    23 think one could go to Travnik still.

    24 Q. What about the supplies at the time? Did you

    25 have enough food, medical supplies? Could you please

  32. 1 describe the situation, if you remember?

    2 A. At that time there was food. We had enough

    3 water, electricity, we also had the heating. We had

    4 the heating as long as the coal stocks lasted. After

    5 that -- as a matter of fact, UNPROFOR made the heating

    6 possible. As for the medical supplies, well, you could

    7 say we had enough of it.

    8 Q. When you say that UNPROFOR enabled, you mean

    9 the local UNPROFOR base?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Where was it accommodated, as against the

    12 health centre?

    13 A. You mean how far was it? Well, about,

    14 perhaps, 800 to 1.000 metres.

    15 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, do you remember, in the --

    16 just as the conflict broke out, so on the 24th, the

    17 25th of January, '93, do you know what happened to the

    18 employed who were of Muslim origin in the health

    19 centre? Did you notice something that struck you,

    20 perhaps, as odd?

    21 A. Not then. Later on, as the whole -- as it

    22 began to unfold, yes, it did seem odd that most of

    23 them, some who decided to then use their holidays, that

    24 is their holidays that were due them since 1992.

    25 Somehow it coincided in time with the outbreak of the

  33. 1 conflict.

    2 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, as an inhabitant of Busovaca,

    3 did you notice, perhaps, that as the conflict broke out

    4 the Muslim population began to leave Busovaca?

    5 A. Yes, I did. I did notice that they were

    6 leaving to the nearest place, Kacuni, where there is a

    7 Muslim majority. It is some five or six kilometres

    8 from Busovaca. And I could really see that. It was

    9 noticeable. They left by passenger cars, those who had

    10 them, and those who lived in adjoining villages, they

    11 were also taking their livestock away, which was really

    12 odd. Don't you think so?

    13 Q. Did you wonder, then, did you ask yourself

    14 why were those people leaving?

    15 A. Well, I don't really remember how was it. It

    16 was strange and -- yes, I felt fear, but I did not

    17 really expect that anything else terrible would happen.

    18 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, tell us, how was the work

    19 organised in the health centre after the outbreak of

    20 the conflict? How did you operate?

    21 A. I think that my impression was that we

    22 organised work quite well. We had enough of the

    23 paramedical personnel, so the nurses, we had two or

    24 three nurses even on a shift, on a 24 hour shift, and

    25 then we'll be free for 48 hours and, if need be, then

  34. 1 we would return earlier, that is, we would not use all

    2 those 48 hours. So I think we did quite well.

    3 Q. Did you have many patients when you were on

    4 duty?

    5 A. Yes, very many.

    6 Q. How many, approximately? Do you remember?

    7 A. Well, possibly up to 50 a day.

    8 Q. You say up to 50. What period of time do you

    9 have in mind? Could you be more specific? What month?

    10 A. Yes. Well, yes, I can. It was in the

    11 beginning of the conflict, that is the end of January,

    12 early February. I think when they brought individuals

    13 from the Kaonik facility, that is when we were the

    14 busiest.

    15 Q. You mentioned the Kaonik facility and

    16 individuals brought from there. Did you ever visit the

    17 Kaonik facility?

    18 A. No, never.

    19 Q. But do you know what kind of facility was

    20 it? Do you know what it was before and what was it at

    21 the time of the conflict?

    22 A. Why, yes. Before the conflict it was the

    23 barracks of the former JNA, and at the time of the

    24 conflict it was used -- its purpose was a facility, it

    25 was the place to protect people who were threatened. I

  35. 1 know that. I never went there, but I know what it was

    2 before the war and what was its purpose during the war.

    3 Q. Do you know, Mrs. Ivancevic, that it was a

    4 military prison in Kaonik?

    5 A. No, I didn't. I do not know that.

    6 Q. Did you personally, when on duty, come across

    7 patients who would be brought to the health centre from

    8 the Kaonik facility? Do you remember that?

    9 A. You mean the date?

    10 Q. No, not the date. You could hardly remember

    11 the date. But if you do remember the date, very good.

    12 But I mean the period of time.

    13 A. The end of January, early February. That was

    14 that period of time.

    15 Q. As far as you can recollect, how many

    16 patients from Kaonik were brought to the health centre

    17 in Busovaca?

    18 A. I do not really remember how many, but I told

    19 you that we were very busy because of those individuals

    20 who were brought for medical examination. I think -- I

    21 don't know, I cannot exactly -- I cannot remember

    22 exactly, but some 30 or thereabouts.

    23 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, were you personally ever in

    24 the proximity or did you have any contact with those

    25 patients from Kaonik?

  36. 1 A. Yes, I did.

    2 Q. Could you tell us, if you remember, what

    3 complaints did these people have? What did they suffer

    4 from, what kind of medical help did they need?

    5 A. Yes. As a rule, they -- well, these were

    6 individuals, patients -- patients. When I say

    7 patients, I mean those individuals who were in the

    8 health centre. Usually -- I mean, I knew most of them,

    9 and they usually asked for the same kind of help that

    10 they came to the centre even before. That is, as a

    11 rule, high blood pressure or people who suffered from

    12 diabetes, or they came for the medication needed for

    13 that particular ailment and so. I mean, simply -- I

    14 don't know what to say. But, generally speaking, there

    15 were no major diseases. Same kind of illnesses that

    16 they suffered before. That is why they came

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I'm sorry. Perhaps this

    19 would be an appropriate time for a break. After that

    20 you may continue. We'll take a 20-minute recess.

    21 --- Upon adjourning at 2.49 p.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 3.12 p.m.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Ivancevic, we are

    24 going to continue. Perhaps it would be appropriate to

    25 tell you that behind you, you can see yourself, there

  37. 1 are individuals, very nice people as you can see.

    2 You're doing a very good job for us all in ensuring

    3 that we can understand you. They're very nice, aren't

    4 they? So please try to imagine that when you're

    5 speaking with Mr. Mikulcic that there are these people

    6 who are acting on your behalf. So if you could make a

    7 pause between the question and the answer, it would be

    8 helpful for us so that we can understand you easily.

    9 Mr. Mikulcic, you now have the floor.

    10 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    11 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, let us continue where we

    12 stopped before the break. You mentioned that persons

    13 from Kaonik would also come as patients to your medical

    14 centre and you told us that they usually complained of

    15 health problems that they had before they were

    16 accommodated in Kaonik. Is it true that they suffered

    17 from some chronic diseases?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, who brought these individuals

    20 from Konjic to be examined at the health centre?

    21 A. The detainees were brought to the health

    22 centre as patients by the guards and Mr. Zlatko

    23 Aleksovski.

    24 Q. Do you know Mr. Aleksovski from before the

    25 conflict or did you meet him at that time?

  38. 1 A. I met him at the health centre in late

    2 January, early February.

    3 Q. Do you think you would recognise him today?

    4 A. Yes, I would.

    5 Q. Can you tell us if you can see Mr. Aleksovski

    6 in the courtroom?

    7 A. Yes, he was the first person I saw when I

    8 entered the courtroom.

    9 Q. Could you please point in his direction for

    10 the record. Can the record please reflect that the

    11 witness has pointed to the accused. Mrs. Ivancevic,

    12 the patients who were brought from Kaonik to be

    13 examined at the centre, were they tied up, did they

    14 have handcuffs?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Could you describe for us the procedure that

    17 was applied when they were received at the medical

    18 centre and what was the follow up of that procedure?

    19 A. Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski would usually call us

    20 at the health centre and he would usually announce that

    21 he had patients for us. These patients, once they are

    22 brought to the health centre, would go to the waiting

    23 room in the corridor where other patients would also

    24 wait to be examined by the doctor. There was one

    25 surgery. And patients would be examined by the doctor

  39. 1 in that surgery. Only a doctor would be in that

    2 surgery and the patient, that is the detainee, would

    3 enter his surgery. The examination would take place

    4 there and then he would be brought back to the -- he

    5 would be brought to the nurse's office. So when they

    6 came to our office, they would have the prescription

    7 with the therapy that was recommended for that

    8 patient.

    9 My job as a nurse would be to make a record

    10 of his name, of the patient's name, to copy from the

    11 prescription form the therapy that was indicated. And

    12 after that administrative work was completed, depending

    13 on what was written on the prescription, if the patient

    14 had to receive an injection, I would then administer

    15 the injection. If the therapy involved certain

    16 tablets, the patient would have already received the

    17 tablets, the pills by the doctor. And I would make a

    18 note of that in another book. And that was the end of

    19 the examination of the patient at the health centre.

    20 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, do you remember if the

    21 patients had an opportunity to speak to the doctor

    22 themselves, to tell him what they were suffering from?

    23 A. Yes, of course. Most often they would be

    24 alone with the doctor and they were able to tell him

    25 about their problems.

  40. 1 Q. Did you personally ever speak to one of the

    2 patients from Kaonik?

    3 A. No, I did not, except for my part of the

    4 job. I mean, I was supposed to ask for his name and

    5 proceed with my part of the job.

    6 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, the procedure that you have

    7 just described, that is the examination of the patients

    8 from Kaonik, was the same procedure applied to all

    9 other patients at the health centre?

    10 A. Yes, of course.

    11 Q. Did you have any different treatment for

    12 patients coming from Kaonik as opposed to other

    13 patients?

    14 A. No, we did not.

    15 Q. Was there a case when the doctor or nurse

    16 refused to provide medical help to patients from

    17 Kaonik?

    18 A. No, such things never occurred.

    19 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, you had the opportunity to

    20 see, personally, individuals coming from Kaonik?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you then tell us, could you describe

    23 for us how they looked? Could you compare the way they

    24 look with other patients that you normally received at

    25 the health centre?

  41. 1 A. Yes, I can tell you about that. They were

    2 not different from other patients, but there was one

    3 thing that we could observe. The men, because they

    4 were only men, were unshaved. That is the only thing

    5 that we could observe. And it was something normal for

    6 such people because of the facility they were

    7 accommodated in. They were perhaps not as tidy as

    8 others.

    9 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, did you provide medical

    10 services to HVO soldiers at the medical centre?

    11 A. Yes, we did.

    12 Q. What did they look like in comparing with the

    13 patients from Kaonik?

    14 A. Well, they were also untidy. You could see

    15 that they were very tired. That was all.

    16 Q. How did you know that they were HVO

    17 soldiers?

    18 A. They were wearing uniforms with HVO insignia.

    19 Q. Would you recognise such insignia if you saw

    20 one?

    21 A. Yes, I would.

    22 Q. With the assistance of the usher, can the

    23 witness be shown Exhibit P-17. Could you please place

    24 the exhibit on the ELMO so that we can see it on the

    25 screen. Mrs. Ivancevic, you can see two types of

  42. 1 insignia here, one that has been marked with No. 1, and

    2 the other marked with No. 2. Which of these two signs

    3 did you observe on the soldiers that received medical

    4 help at your medical centre in Busovaca?

    5 A. Well, the soldiers, or patients, rather.

    6 Yes, the patients to whom I gave medical help, I

    7 noticed that they were wearing the sign marked with No.

    8 2.

    9 Q. It's the HVO sign?

    10 A. Yes, it is.

    11 Q. Did you ever see any of your patients wearing

    12 the insignia marked with No. 1, HV?

    13 A. No, never.

    14 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, when Mr. Aleksovski came to

    15 the health centre, do you remember how he was dressed?

    16 A. Sometimes he was wearing a uniform, but very

    17 often he was dressed in civilian clothes as well.

    18 Q. Do you remember when he was dressed in

    19 military uniform whether he was wearing any of these

    20 two insignia or maybe some other type of insignia?

    21 A. That suit was without insignia. I didn't

    22 notice any insignia.

    23 Q. Did he have any rank insignia, military rank?

    24 A. No, I don't know that.

    25 Q. Thank you, we no longer need this exhibit.

  43. 1 It can be removed from the ELMO. Mrs. Ivancevic, you

    2 mentioned that the procedure for the patients coming

    3 from Kaonik was the same as the procedure applied to

    4 all other patients at the health centre, is that

    5 correct?

    6 A. Yes, that's correct.

    7 Q. Does that mean you would sometimes have both

    8 members of the HVO and patients from Kaonik sitting in

    9 the waiting room?

    10 A. I don't remember any such occasion, but it

    11 could happen, yes.

    12 Q. Do you remember whether there was any

    13 incident in connection with that?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Did you notice what kind of relationship Mr.

    16 Aleksovski or the guard, what kind of relationship they

    17 had with the people that were brought from Kaonik?

    18 A. Well, the relationship between Mr. Aleksovski

    19 and the guards with the patients, individuals from

    20 Kaonik, was very correct and humane.

    21 Q. Could you please be more specific. What

    22 exactly do you mean by that, "correct and humane"?

    23 A. Well, they were not restrained in any way,

    24 they were treated as all other people who were waiting

    25 in the waiting room and I didn't observe anything

  44. 1 special, anything different. I didn't see that they

    2 were treated differently as opposed to other patients

    3 who were in the waiting room. That was my impression.

    4 Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Ivancevic, at the time

    5 of the events, late January, beginning of February, how

    6 the work was organised at the health centre?

    7 A. Yes, I do remember. I already told you that

    8 we would work for 24 hours, at least we, the nurses.

    9 There were 15 or 16 of us. There were fewer

    10 physicians. When I came to work, when I would come to

    11 work, I would find my colleague, the physician

    12 actually, Dr. Bernardica Mioc, I am referring to the

    13 24th and 25th of January. After that, I was on the

    14 same shift with Dr. Zvonmir Stipac, Dr. Srdjana

    15 Markovic, Dr. Nada Petrovic and Dr. Rozika Kordic.

    16 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, what was the therapy that was

    17 most often prescribed to the patients from Kaonik?

    18 A. Well, they usually received therapy for high

    19 pressure. And I remember one patient who was on

    20 insulin, who took injections for diabetes. Sometimes

    21 we would give injections for back pain. Here I am

    22 referring to patients suffering from chronic rheumatic

    23 diseases.

    24 Q. You've mentioned rheumatic pain and lumbar

    25 pain, what kind of therapy was administered to those

  45. 1 patients? Was any are rest indicated or prescribed as

    2 therapy?

    3 A. Well, it depended on how serious the case

    4 was. If the patient was in severe pain, Voltarin would

    5 usually be prescribed and the patient would have to be

    6 spared from work. And usually he was also referred

    7 home for treatment.

    8 Q. As such kind of therapy, and here I have in

    9 mind, rest, home treatment and so on, was such therapy

    10 prescribed to all the patients as well, not only

    11 individuals coming from Kaonik?

    12 A. That therapy was prescribed to all patients

    13 who needed it. And even today, a doctor would indicate

    14 or prescribe for the patient to be spared from work if

    15 his condition requires so.

    16 Q. Is it, therefore correct, Mrs. Ivancevic,

    17 that therapy, home treatment, rest and so on, is a

    18 common therapy today as it was before?

    19 A. Yes, yes.

    20 Q. Did you ever notice while you contacted these

    21 patients, did you ever notice any bodily injuries,

    22 fractures or similar?

    23 A. No, not during my shift.

    24 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, I think you've already told

    25 us that you've never been to Kaonik?

  46. 1 A. No, I have never been to Kaonik.

    2 Q. Could you tell us and now I am asking you as

    3 an inhabitant of Busovaca. How did people dress at

    4 that time? Let me be more accurate. Was it common for

    5 inhabitants of Busovaca to wear parts of military and

    6 parts of civilian clothing, that is mixed things?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Why was that, what do you think?

    9 A. Well, I think there was a shortage of

    10 civilian clothes. So that people used it, that is,

    11 they would wear a civilian shirt and trousers and a

    12 military jacket to keep warm.

    13 Q. Do you perhaps remember shirts that people

    14 used to wear, did they, perhaps, have some patches with

    15 markings of an army flag or something on the sleeve?

    16 Do you remember?

    17 A. No, I don't.

    18 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, you never went to Kaonik, but

    19 do you know if the medical personnel from the health

    20 centre went to Kaonik?

    21 A. I did not go there, but I am positive that a

    22 colleague went from Kaonik for fumigation and that she

    23 was invited by Mr. Aleksovski.

    24 Q. Do you remember if any of patients from

    25 Kaonik showed any symptoms of skin disease or lice

  47. 1 perhaps or some contagious disease?

    2 A. I did not notice, nor did I hear it from my

    3 colleagues that there were any such diseases.

    4 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, we have no

    5 further questions.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Mikulcic.

    7 Madam Ivancevic, you have just answered questions put

    8 to you by Mr. Mikulcic. Now you will respond to

    9 questions put to you by Mr. Meddegoda sitting there, if

    10 he has any questions for you.

    11 MR. MEDDEGODA: Just a couple of questions,

    12 Your Honours, not very many.

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda

    14 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Ivancevic. You have

    15 been living in Busovaca since your childhood?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And you know, practically, you know most of

    18 the inhabitants of Busovaca, either by name or by

    19 sight?

    20 A. Yes, and my job also made me know all those

    21 people.

    22 Q. And you, what would you say that the

    23 composition of Busovaca was prior to the conflict

    24 between the Croats and the Muslims?

    25 A. I already told Mr. Goran, before the war in

  48. 1 Busovaca, there were 18.000 people. I do not know

    2 exactly, but I think that it was about 50/50.

    3 Q. And you have in the course of your work at

    4 the health centre, treated patients, detainees, who

    5 were brought from Kaonik camp to the health centre?

    6 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

    7 Q. In the course of your work in the health

    8 centre, as an employee, as a nurse in the health

    9 centre, you say you have treated detainees who were

    10 brought from the Kaonik camp?

    11 A. Yes, we did.

    12 Q. And do you remember about how many patients

    13 you may have treated from the Kaonik camp?

    14 A. You mean per day?

    15 Q. Per day, about how many would you have

    16 treated per day?

    17 A. I have already said about 30.

    18 Q. About 30. And about how many would you have

    19 looked at, attended to, out of that 30 during your

    20 shift of work?

    21 A. I already told how the work was organised in

    22 the health centre. All patients, say there are 30 of

    23 them, who would go into the examination room, into the

    24 surgery. The doctors also had to go into the room

    25 where the nurse was, to be filed in the book to be put

  49. 1 on record. And then depending on what the prescription

    2 said, if it was a medication, they would be, they would

    3 be given it immediately with the doctor. Or, if it was

    4 therapy by injections, then we would do it in that

    5 room.

    6 Q. So in the examination room, it would be a

    7 doctor and the detainee from Kaonik who would be in

    8 that room?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And no one else would be present in that room

    11 during the time of examination, is that right?

    12 A. Could be, but not necessarily so. Could be,

    13 if that person said that he or she wanted to be alone

    14 with the doctor, that was permitted.

    15 Q. If he did not want to be alone with the

    16 doctor, what would the procedure be?

    17 A. Well, if he did not want that, then he could

    18 be escorted. I do not mean only official escort. I

    19 mean that two patients could enter the doctor's room at

    20 the same time, if they wanted to.

    21 Q. So there would be more than one patient in

    22 the doctor's room at one -- at a given time?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And would there be others as well, apart from

    25 the patients and the doctor, inside that room?

  50. 1 A. There was no need for it.

    2 Q. Were there occasions on which Mr. Aleksovski

    3 would be present inside that room?

    4 A. I do not know that. I don't remember.

    5 Q. Is it that you don't remember, or is it that

    6 you do not know that?

    7 A. I do not remember.

    8 Q. And were there occasions on which the guards

    9 who escorted the detainees would be in the room with

    10 the doctor and the patient?

    11 A. I have already said that they could be, but

    12 need not have been in.

    13 Q. Have you seen guards who accompanied the

    14 patient, the detainee, in the same room as the doctor

    15 and the patient?

    16 A. Normally I do not enter the doctor's

    17 surgery. I had another room where I worked. And as

    18 for me, yes, guards would come together with the

    19 patient.

    20 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Ivancevic, you also said in

    21 the course of your testimony that the Kaonik -- I

    22 withdraw that question, Your Honours.

    23 Now, Mrs. Ivancevic, prior to the conflict,

    24 you said that the Kaonik facility was used as the

    25 former JNA barracks; is that right?

  51. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And do you know what it was used as during

    3 the conflict?

    4 A. During the conflict, I said it already, it

    5 was used to accommodate persons of Muslim origin, of

    6 Muslim ethnicity.

    7 Q. Do you know people who were of Muslim

    8 ethnicity who were in the Kaonik facility, either by

    9 sight or by personally or by name?

    10 A. I did know some of those individuals.

    11 Q. And were there people from Busovaca who were

    12 detained in that facility?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you know whether, apart from the Bosniaks,

    15 Muslims who were there, do you know if there were any

    16 Serbs who were detained in that facility?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. And do you know whether there were any Croats

    19 detained in that facility?

    20 A. I don't know.

    21 Q. You also said, Mrs. Ivancevic, after the

    22 recess, that it was normal for people of -- normal for

    23 inhabitants in Busovaca to be dressed in military

    24 uniform, sometimes in military trousers and sometimes

    25 in military jackets and shirts.

  52. 1 A. Yes. Yes, I did say that.

    2 Q. Did you on any occasion, were you dressed in

    3 military uniform and military trousers or in military

    4 jacket? Did any of your colleagues in the Busovaca

    5 Health Centre wear military uniform, trouser or

    6 military jacket during this time?

    7 A. No, I did not, nor did my colleagues.

    8 Q. Okay. You also said, Mrs. Ivancevic, that

    9 most of the witnesses (sic) who were brought from the

    10 Kaonik facility had complaints of high blood pressure

    11 and diabetes, and that they had no major diseases in

    12 that way?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did you speak to any of those detainees

    15 personally?

    16 A. Only as much as was needed, as much as I

    17 needed to, because of my job.

    18 Q. And what conversations did you have with any

    19 of the detainees? Do you remember any conversation you

    20 had with any of the detainees whom you treated?

    21 A. Who could remember after all those years? I

    22 really can't remember.

    23 Q. But you do remember that some of them only

    24 had complaints of high blood pressure and diabetes?

    25 A. Yes.

  53. 1 Q. And do you know whether there were patients

    2 who were brought to Kaonik who suffered from bruises or

    3 contusions, abrasions or lacerations, of that sort, or

    4 an injury of that sort?

    5 A. I did not see that.

    6 Q. And do you also know that patients suffering

    7 from contusions and bruises and abrasions were brought

    8 to the Busovaca Health Centre from the Kaonik facility

    9 in the month of April and May of 1993?

    10 A. I do not know about such individuals, and I

    11 said that I did not see them.

    12 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no further questions,

    13 Your Honours, on cross-examination.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    15 any additional questions?

    16 MR. MIKULICIC: Your lordships, if I may, one

    17 question only.

    18 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    19 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, my learned friend from the

    20 Prosecution asked you if you or somebody else, that is

    21 another colleague of yours from the health centre, wore

    22 the military uniform, and you said they did not. Is

    23 that true?

    24 A. Yes, it is.

    25 Q. Tell me, what was your uniform and your

  54. 1 colleague's uniform?

    2 A. My uniform was the nurse's uniform, the same

    3 as it is today.

    4 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. I have no more

    5 questions.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Ivancevic, I have one

    7 question for you.

    8 Examined by Judge Rodrigues

    9 Q. You stated that you knew the people,

    10 neighbours, in Busovaca who were in Kaonik. Do you

    11 know why these persons were imprisoned?

    12 A. I do not know that.

    13 Q. But you knew them?

    14 A. I said I did, but I did not know why they

    15 were accommodated there. That was not part of my job.

    16 It wasn't up to me to question them about it.

    17 Q. Was there any type of criminal act that was

    18 carried out that explained why all these people were

    19 imprisoned in your town?

    20 A. Again, I don't know. I wasn't interested in

    21 that.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I see. Well, Madam,

    23 Ivancevic, you have just completed your testimony here

    24 before the International Criminal Tribunal. We thank

    25 you for appearing and we wish you a pleasant return

  55. 1 trip to your country. Thank you.

    2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    3 (The witness withdrew)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, now we have

    5 the benefit of Mr. Niemann joining us here in the

    6 courtroom. Shall we continue?

    7 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

    8 wasn't available earlier. I was in another matter.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No problem. We stated

    10 beforehand that you were here in spirit. Now you are

    11 also here in body.

    12 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

    14 should like to say good afternoon to my learned friend,

    15 Mr. Niemann, and say that I am happy to see him here

    16 again. We should like to call our next witness, whose

    17 name is Ms. Zorka Ljubos.

    18 (The witness entered court)

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, Madam. Do

    20 you hear me? I realise that you speak French well.

    21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. No, a little.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. You are now

    23 going to read the solemn declaration, which the court

    24 usher will hand to you.

    25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

  56. 1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    2 truth.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please be seated, Madam. I

    4 would like to inform you that behind you there are

    5 persons who ensure that we can understand you in your

    6 language. They carry on the interpretation. And so

    7 please take into account the fact that between yourself

    8 and Mr. Mikulicic, who is sitting there, who will be

    9 asking you questions, that there are all these

    10 individuals, and so I ask that you speak slowly, with

    11 pauses. Thank you. Is that possible for you?

    12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You feel comfortable? Very

    14 well. Now, you will now respond to questions put to I

    15 by Mr. Mikulicic. Thank you. Mr. Mikulicic, you have

    16 the floor.


    18 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    19 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.

    20 Good afternoon, Mrs. Ljubos.

    21 A. Good afternoon.

    22 Q. I am representing Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski in

    23 this case, and I should like to ask you some

    24 questions. So please answer them to the best of your

    25 recollection.

  57. 1 A. I understand.

    2 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, would you tell us when and where

    3 were you born?

    4 A. On the 5th of August, 1957, in Ravno, the

    5 Municipality of Busovaca.

    6 Q. And what is your ethnic origin, Mrs. Ljubos?

    7 A. I am a Croat.

    8 Q. Are you a practising believer?

    9 A. Yes, a Roman Catholic.

    10 Q. Ms. Ljubos, what about your education?

    11 A. I completed the high medical school and the

    12 high school for social workers.

    13 Q. What stream of the medical school?

    14 A. It was the general stream.

    15 Q. And when you completed the high medical

    16 school of the general stream, did you get a job

    17 immediately or did you continue with your education?

    18 A. After the completion of my secondary

    19 education, I proceeded to study -- I enrolled in

    20 medicine, the study of medicine in Sarajevo, but I

    21 dropped out, and in 1977 I got a job as a nurse.

    22 Q. So this was your first job?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Do you remember where that was?

    25 A. I do. It was the health centre in Travnik,

  58. 1 hospital in Travnik.

    2 Q. And how long were you there?

    3 A. In the Travnik hospital I stayed about four

    4 months and a half.

    5 Q. And then?

    6 A. And then I got a job with the health centre

    7 in Busovaca.

    8 Q. Are you still with the health centre in

    9 Busovaca or not any longer?

    10 A. Since 1994, that is September '94, I have

    11 been working in the Municipality of Busovaca.

    12 Q. Which means that since -- between 1997 to '94

    13 you were with the health centre in Busovaca?

    14 A. That is correct.

    15 Q. And what was your job?

    16 A. In the health centre in Busovaca?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. In the health centre in Busovaca I moved

    19 around all the departments that existed in peacetime.

    20 Q. And what was the staff of the health centre

    21 prior to 1993, prior to the conflict? Do you remember,

    22 roughly?

    23 A. As regards the nurses, I think we were 17, I

    24 think, but I cannot be positive about it. And

    25 doctors. Doctors, before the war, there were some four

  59. 1 or five, including also dentists.

    2 Q. Ms. Ljubos, what was roughly the ethnic

    3 composition of the staff of the health centre? Do you

    4 know?

    5 A. Well, I couldn't give you the ratios, but it

    6 was a mixed ethnic composition. There were Croats and

    7 Muslims and Serbs.

    8 Q. At the time when you were with the health

    9 centre in Busovaca, was it possible to hospitalise

    10 patients?

    11 A. In the health centre at Busovaca there were

    12 no conditions for the hospitalisation of patients. We

    13 had no hospital beds. And the institution -- as an

    14 institution was not envisaged to provide

    15 hospitalisation by statute.

    16 Q. And do you know, if a patient needed to be

    17 hospitalised, what did you do then?

    18 A. If the conditions, that is the illness, the

    19 ailment was such that a patient needed hospitalisation,

    20 then we frequently covered this need through homecare.

    21 We called that kind of treatment home treatment.

    22 Q. Ms. Ljubos, you mentioned dentistry as one of

    23 the activities of the health centre of Busovaca.

    24 A. That is correct.

    25 Q. Could you tell us how long did the health

  60. 1 centre extend this kind of medical care?

    2 A. Under normal conditions, the dentistry was a

    3 regular aspect of the activity, until the bombing, that

    4 is the shelling, and that was 1992. That was in

    5 Travnik. But since the health centre was hit then and

    6 damaged, the dental surgery could not perform as

    7 before, so that the dentistry services were reduced,

    8 that is, we provided only the emergency dentistry

    9 treatment.

    10 Q. That is, there were no conditions because the

    11 building was damaged during shelling, and you could not

    12 extend the regular dentist services?

    13 A. Quite, quite. That is the extractions or

    14 perhaps trephinations, for the prevention, or perhaps

    15 prophylactic measures and regular treatment that --

    16 that was no longer done.

    17 Q. Could you please for us laymen explain what

    18 are the extractions and trephinations?

    19 A. Well, it means the first aid. It means to

    20 open a tooth, and the first aid is simply to alleviate

    21 the pain. And tooth extraction means to extract, to

    22 pull out the tooth, that is, remove the tooth from the

    23 mouth.

    24 Q. I see. Ms. Ljubos, do you remember the

    25 beginning of the conflict in Busovaca?

  61. 1 A. Yes, I do. It happened on the 25th of

    2 January, 1993.

    3 Q. How is it that you remember that day?

    4 A. Well, I remember that day because of the

    5 sound of sirens that we heard at that moment, which was

    6 something new for us at that time. I also remember

    7 that day because we started admitting some unusual

    8 patients, that is, people who had been wounded. And I

    9 also remember that day because of the fear that we all

    10 experienced.

    11 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, are you aware of a facility

    12 called Kaonik?

    13 A. I am aware of that name, Kaonik, but I've

    14 never been there.

    15 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, do you know what was the

    16 function of that facility before the break-out of the

    17 conflict in Busovaca?

    18 A. Yes. It was the barracks of the former JNA.

    19 Q. And do you know what it was used for after

    20 the break-out of the conflict, that is, immediately

    21 prior to the outbreak of the conflict?

    22 A. I don't know about that.

    23 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, after the 25th of January, 1993,

    24 you said that there was an increase in the number of

    25 patients?

  62. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Could you tell us more about the patients

    3 that you received at that time?

    4 A. I can classify them as follows: These

    5 patients were brought to us from the Kaonik facility,

    6 and we also had members of the Croatian Defence

    7 Council, that is the soldiers. And, of course, the

    8 third group, the civilians who lived in the area for

    9 which the health centre was responsible.

    10 Q. If I understand you correctly, that was the

    11 first time that you came across individuals that were

    12 brought there from Kaonik?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. When did that happen?

    15 A. Since it was long time ago, I can only tell

    16 you that it was at the end of January, beginning of

    17 February, 1993.

    18 Q. Who brought these individuals, these patients

    19 from Kaonik? How did they get to the health centre?

    20 A. These patients were brought in a vehicle

    21 under the escort of the warden of the facility,

    22 Mr. Zlatko. Sometimes they would also be escorted by

    23 one or two guards, depending on the number of patients

    24 that were brought in.

    25 Q. You've mentioned Mr. Zlatko. Do you know

  63. 1 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski?

    2 A. Do you mean here in the courtroom?

    3 Q. Yes. Could you recognise him?

    4 A. Yes. Yes, I could.

    5 Q. Could you tell us where he is here in the

    6 courtroom?

    7 A. He is behind you. He is sitting behind you.


    9 Can the record please reflect that the

    10 witness has pointed to the accused, who is sitting

    11 behind the Defence.

    12 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, when did you first meet

    13 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski?

    14 A. As I already told you, I think it was in late

    15 January, early February, 1993.

    16 Q. Do you remember when Mr. Aleksovski would

    17 come to the health centre, how was he dressed?

    18 A. Yes, I remember that. Very often he would be

    19 casually dressed. It was some kind of a mix of

    20 civilian clothes and camouflage trousers, for example.

    21 But he would also come in a camouflage suit, which, at

    22 that time, was normal type of clothes worn by men.

    23 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, I will now show you a photograph

    24 with some military insignia. And I would kindly ask

    25 you to tell us whether you have seen, whether you saw

  64. 1 such type of insignia on the clothes that were worn by

    2 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski or, perhaps, some other

    3 individuals.

    4 Could the usher please place the exhibit

    5 number P17 on the ELMO.

    6 Did you see on Mr. Aleksovski, when he was

    7 dressed in military uniform, you said it was a

    8 camouflage uniform, or when he would wear only parts of

    9 camouflage uniform, did you see any of these patches?

    10 A. No, I don't think I saw any of these patches

    11 worn by Mr. Zlatko.

    12 Q. Did you see any other kind of insignia?

    13 A. No, I don't remember any insignia. I think

    14 he was casually dressed. I told you that he didn't

    15 wear any insignia or rank.

    16 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Ljubos, you've mentioned

    17 that while providing medical services at the health

    18 centre in Busovaca you also extended medical help to

    19 the HVO soldiers; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, it is.

    21 Q. Could you tell us, or, rather, point to the

    22 patch. You see two patches on the screen, number one

    23 and two. Which one did you notice on the uniforms of

    24 the soldiers that received medical help at your centre?

    25 A. Yes, it was a patch marked with number 2.

  65. 1 This was the patch that was worn by HVO soldiers. But

    2 not all of them, because at that time they didn't have

    3 enough uniforms or suits.

    4 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, as part of your job or as a

    5 resident of Busovaca, did you ever come across anyone

    6 wearing the patch marked with number 1?

    7 A. No, never

    8 MR. MIKULICIC: We no longer need this exhibit,

    9 Mr. Usher. It can be given back to the registrar.

    10 Q. We spoke about patients that were brought

    11 either by Mr. Aleksovski or by some other guards from

    12 Kaonik to receive medical treatment at your centre.

    13 Could you tell us something more about their problems,

    14 their complaints?

    15 A. As far as I can remember, these problems were

    16 connected with their prior ailments, problems with

    17 digestion, blood pressure, cardiac myopathy and similar

    18 ailments. Sometimes colds, for example.

    19 Q. For the record, Mrs. Ljubos, for us laymen

    20 could you explain what these ailments are?

    21 A. Stomach problems refer to problems with

    22 digestion. Cardiac myopathy is a heart condition.

    23 Q. How would you describe these ailments? Are

    24 we talking about chronic diseases or acute diseases?

    25 A. In most of the cases these were chronic

  66. 1 diseases.

    2 Q. Do you remember, Ms. Ljubos, what kind of

    3 therapy was prescribed to these individuals?

    4 A. The therapy usually depended on how serious

    5 the ailment was. Very often it was only parenteral

    6 therapy. Sometimes it would be also the therapy by

    7 injection.

    8 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, for these type of ailments, the

    9 ailments that you came across at that time, was your

    10 impression that these ailments were more frequent

    11 during wartime, that the number of such patients

    12 increased?

    13 A. I wouldn't say that the number of such

    14 patients increased. We were actually surprised to see,

    15 during that time, not a single epidemy, not a single

    16 infectious disease that was recorded at that time,

    17 which is an indicator of a relatively stable medical

    18 situation, health situation.

    19 Q. Do you mean that at the health centre you

    20 never recorded any infectious -- the existence of any

    21 infectious disease at the Kaonik facility?

    22 A. Yes, you are right.

    23 Q. Is it true, Mrs. Ljubos, that as part of your

    24 job you had direct contact with patients from Kaonik?

    25 A. Yes.

  67. 1 Q. What kind of impression did they leave on

    2 you? Did you think they were malnourished?

    3 A. No, you couldn't talk about malnutrition. As

    4 for my general impression, they were, perhaps,

    5 unshaven, unkempt, but at that time it was not

    6 something uncommon. Most of the men looked like that.

    7 I didn't think that they were malnourished.

    8 Q. The patients from Kaonik, according to what

    9 you can remember, did they leave an impression which

    10 was different from the impression left by other

    11 patients seeking help at the medical centre?

    12 A. No. Bearing in mind the general

    13 circumstances, the prevailing conditions, my impression

    14 was the same in both cases.

    15 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, did you ever notice or did you

    16 ever hear any patients from Kaonik complaining of some

    17 bodily injuries, like fractures, blows, bruises,

    18 abrasions, and so on?

    19 A. Since we worked in shifts, 24 hour shifts,

    20 which were followed by 48 hours off duty, I really

    21 don't remember that while I was on duty. I don't

    22 remember ever seeing, ever noticing, anyone with such

    23 type of injuries.

    24 Q. Which physicians were on duty on your shift,

    25 do you remember?

  68. 1 A. Yes, I do. I was with Dr. Stipac, Dr. Mioc,

    2 Dr. Petrovic, Dr. Markovic and Dr. Rozica Kordic.

    3 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, do you remember how the patients

    4 from Kaonik were brought to the health centre?

    5 A. Yes, I do. I think, that is I am sure, that

    6 they were brought in a vehicle or sometimes in a van.

    7 Q. You distinguish between the two, what do you

    8 mean by "vehicle"?

    9 A. A passenger car. I don't remember the exact

    10 type, but it was a grey vehicle, grey metallic

    11 vehicle.

    12 Q. At that time, did the medical centre dispose

    13 of an ambulance?

    14 A. At that time, the medical centre had problems

    15 with ambulances. And as far as I can remember, we had

    16 only one at that time, only one that was in good

    17 condition.

    18 Q. The patients who were brought to your centre

    19 from Kaonik, were they restrained in any way, were they

    20 handcuffed?

    21 A. No, never.

    22 Q. What was the procedure that was applied when

    23 they were treated?

    24 A. The procedure was the same as for all other

    25 patients. If there were patients waiting in the

  69. 1 waiting room, they would also have to wait. If the

    2 situation was urgent, then they would simply go to the

    3 doctor's surgery. After the examination and after the

    4 necessary therapy was prescribed, these patients would

    5 go to the nurse's office. And the nurse would then put

    6 everything on file, make a record of all the necessary

    7 information, including the therapy. And, if necessary,

    8 the nurse would also administer the therapy that was

    9 prescribed.

    10 Q. If the prescribed therapy involved some

    11 medication, how would you go about that? Where did you

    12 obtain medication and to whom was it given? I am

    13 referring to pills or tablets.

    14 A. Well, the medication that was at the medical

    15 centre, that we had at the medical centre was given to

    16 everyone, everybody who needed such type of therapy.

    17 Q. Could you slow down a little bit, please.

    18 A. Yes, I will. As I told you, the medication

    19 was administered to everyone who needed it, everyone

    20 who needed medical help, regardless of their

    21 nationality, gender or age.

    22 Q. Yes, I am clear about that, maybe you haven't

    23 understood my question, so I will rephrase it. How did

    24 the medical centre obtain medication?

    25 A. The medication came from the reserves that we

  70. 1 had. According to the regulations, all medical

    2 institutions, including medical centres such as ours,

    3 were required to have what we called NEP, it's an

    4 abbreviation that refers to reserves in case of war.

    5 So I think all these reserves were pulled out so that

    6 we could satisfy the needs of all the patients who

    7 needed such medication.

    8 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that, Mrs. Ljubos,

    9 that when the physician would prescribe certain therapy

    10 that the patient would immediately receive that

    11 medication?

    12 A. Well, if the therapy involved pills or

    13 tablets, then the patient would be immediately given

    14 these pills together with the instructions on how to

    15 use the medication. The first dose would usually be

    16 administered right there at the health centre and it

    17 was to be followed up according to the prescription, to

    18 the therapy indicated by the physician.

    19 Q. Does that mean that the patients would come

    20 for check ups if that was indicated by the physician?

    21 A. Yes, that would happen very often, depending

    22 on the type of disease. These patients had to come for

    23 check ups within, I don't know, five, seven or ten days

    24 depending on the case and the disease in question.

    25 Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Ljubos, any case

  71. 1 involving home treatment, any case where home treatment

    2 was prescribed for the patient by the physician?

    3 A. Yes, yes, I remember. This is the kind of

    4 procedure that we apply today. Very often the

    5 physician indicates home treatment as the necessary

    6 therapy. Home care, it's a perfectly normal

    7 situation.

    8 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, as far as you can remember, were

    9 patients able or given opportunity to communicate with

    10 the physician alone "tete a tete?" I am referring to

    11 the patients coming from Kaonik.

    12 A. Yes, of course. If several were brought in,

    13 then only one would enter the surgery first and

    14 complain to the physician and so on. I mean, it was

    15 normal procedure. They were able to have direct

    16 contact with the physician.

    17 Q. During such examination, was the guard or Mr.

    18 Aleksovski present there at the surgery?

    19 A. Well, it was not obligatory, sometimes they

    20 would remain if the waiting room and wait and they

    21 would be left without Mr. Aleksovski or without

    22 guards. But we also had cases of patients being there

    23 alone with the doctor without the presence of the

    24 guards or the warden.

    25 Q. Could you describe for us, in case you had

  72. 1 opportunity to see that, what was the treatment or

    2 attitude towards the patients from Kaonik by

    3 Mr. Aleksovski or the guards who would bring such

    4 patients to the health centre?

    5 A. I think I can describe it as a normal

    6 attitude, casual attitude. And here, I mean, I am

    7 referring to Mr. Aleksovski and other guards as well.

    8 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, are you aware of any situation

    9 where the doctor or the nurse would refuse to examine

    10 or offer medical help to any of the patients from

    11 Kaonik?

    12 A. I think I can say with pride that such a

    13 thing never happened and I am speaking on behalf of my

    14 colleagues as well.

    15 Q. You've mentioned a while ago, Mrs. Ljubos,

    16 that due to shortages of adequate clothing, it was

    17 customary for the residents of Busovaca to wear parts

    18 of military clothing, is that correct?

    19 A. Yes, it is.

    20 Q. Did you personally or anyone else at the

    21 health centre have to wear parts of military clothing?

    22 A. No, no. We wore our white coats.

    23 MR. MIKULICIC: This concludes my

    24 examination, Your Honours.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe this is a good

  73. 1 time to take a break before we begin with

    2 cross-examination. So, therefore, we should have a

    3 fifteen minute recess now.

    4 --- Recess taken at 4.23 p.m.

    5 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann or Mr.

    7 Meddegoda, you have the floor.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    9 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

    10 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, there's a couple of matters I

    11 wanted to clear up if I may. From the transcript, it

    12 was a bit confusing as the time you were actually at

    13 the health centre. And, if I can, I would like to sort

    14 that out with you. Is it correct to say that you were

    15 employed at the health centre from 1987 to 1994, is

    16 that right?

    17 A. No, it is not. Since 1977 until 1994, that

    18 is September '94.

    19 Q. I see. And what happened after 1994, you

    20 left there, did you?

    21 A. For personal reasons, I had some health

    22 problems, so I quit my job. Or, rather, I moved to

    23 another organisation, social workers, I also completed

    24 school for social workers.

    25 Q. I don't want the go into that, I just wanted

  74. 1 to establish that you didn't stay there after 1994. I

    2 think you said you lived in the Town of Rodna in

    3 Busovaca?

    4 A. You didn't get me quite well, Ravan,

    5 R-a-v-a-n, Busovaca.

    6 Q. And was Ravan town where the Croatian people

    7 living in and Muslims as well?

    8 A. Yes, I was born in Ravan, but I live in the

    9 Town of Busovaca.

    10 Q. I see. And during 1993 you were living in

    11 Busovaca?

    12 A. That is correct.

    13 Q. Okay. Now where you live in Busovaca, did

    14 you have any friends or neighbours who were Muslim

    15 people?

    16 A. My colleagues, neighbours, people I saw

    17 daily, among them, there were also some Muslims.

    18 Q. And did any of those people go to the Kaonik

    19 camp that you can remember?

    20 A. I don't think I could remember the individual

    21 names, but I saw people that I used to know.

    22 Q. No, I don't want you to name them, it's a

    23 long time ago. The people that went to the camp that

    24 you knew, they were people of good character in the

    25 community, were they?

  75. 1 A. In principle, my personal view says that all

    2 people are good, with some few exceptions.

    3 Q. I am not suggesting -- what I am saying to

    4 you is that, so far as you're concerned, they weren't

    5 criminals or behaved in an antisocial manner, they were

    6 just ordinary citizens, just like yourself?

    7 A. Were you expecting an answer?

    8 Q. Do you agree with that, do you?

    9 A. In principle, yes. It's not up to me to

    10 really judge anyone how good or how bad he is.

    11 Q. But you would know whether someone was an

    12 notorious criminal or had a really bad record or

    13 something like that, and these people didn't fall into

    14 this category? That's the point I am really trying to

    15 raise.

    16 A. I couldn't know if anyone had a police record

    17 or not. But, of course, one knew if somebody was a

    18 petty thief or something like that. Something that is

    19 common, of course, from daily contact.

    20 Q. Do you know why the people that you knew that

    21 ended up in Kaonik, why they went there?

    22 A. I couldn't answer that question.

    23 Q. And what were the circumstances when you

    24 first met Mr. Aleksovski, can you remember when you

    25 first met him?

  76. 1 A. Since I didn't know the gentleman before, as

    2 I said, towards the end of January, beginning of

    3 February, 1993, I met Mr. Aleksovski in the health

    4 centre when he brought patients.

    5 Q. And did he actually have a conversation with

    6 you or did you just see him there and found out that

    7 that was his name?

    8 A. Well, those were unofficial, off the record

    9 conversations by and large; good afternoon, good

    10 afternoon, how are you, how are you. I'd never had any

    11 particular contact with him.

    12 Q. The prisoners that were brought in from

    13 Kaonik, did they -- what were they, what was their --

    14 what were they like in their psychological

    15 presentation? Were they nervous or did they appear

    16 fearful or anything of that nature that you saw?

    17 A. To be quite frank, we were all nervous at

    18 that time in view of the conditions, nothing

    19 particular. We were simply afraid of an uncertainty.

    20 We were all slightly fearful, so they were not

    21 different from the rest of people around.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    23 Honour.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic, do you have

    25 any additional questions.

  77. 1 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Lordship, we

    2 have no additional questions.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Ljubos, the Chamber

    4 has no questions to put to you, so this is the end of

    5 your testimony here at the International Tribunal. We

    6 would like to thank you for coming and wish you a

    7 pleasant return to your country. Thank you.

    8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    9 (The witness withdrew)

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic.

    11 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, we have no more

    12 witnesses for today, so that we cannot call any other

    13 witness today. Tomorrow we shall continue adducing

    14 evidence, so will you please bear that in mind.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Before we end this session,

    16 with your permission, in this spirit, and also discrete

    17 spirit of the activities of this Chamber, could we know

    18 whether or not it will be possible to finish with all

    19 of the witnesses tomorrow or not? I believe that our

    20 list mentions three witnesses and that will end the

    21 list of witnesses for this week. The question that I

    22 am asking is whether or not it will be possible to

    23 finish the list tomorrow or whether or not we will

    24 require to be here again Friday?

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence

  78. 1 would like to point out the fact that there are still

    2 two witnesses, Mrs. Kata Vidovic and Mr. Jelko

    3 Percinlic. We shall be calling them tomorrow. At the

    4 moment, I believe that Ms. Kata Vidovic will not take

    5 too much time. Mr. Percinlic will be a witness who may

    6 take some more time. But I think I believe that, yes,

    7 that we could finish tomorrow.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, if we finish

    9 tomorrow, very well, otherwise we will be here as well

    10 on Friday. In any case, let's make the best of the

    11 time we have available to us because the Chamber also

    12 has other work it has to do. Nonetheless, we will be

    13 here on Friday if necessary. If we can finish with

    14 this tomorrow, all the better. For the time being, we

    15 have completed today's work and we'll meet again

    16 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Thank you to you

    17 all. Tomorrow, see you tomorrow.

    18 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    19 4.55 p.m., to the reconvened on

    20 Thursday, the 18th day of June,

    21 1998, at 9.00 a.m.