1. 1 Monday, 29 June 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    6 gentlemen.

    7 (The accused entered court)

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning. Today we are

    9 sitting in a new hall where there are some slight

    10 changes, but I hope that after a while, we shall get

    11 used to them.

    12 Today we have before us -- the registrar,

    13 will you please tell us the case?

    14 THE REGISTRAR: IT-95-14/1-T, the Tribunal

    15 against Zlatko Aleksovski.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. Will

    17 you please tell us who is presenting the Prosecution?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, my name

    19 is Niemann, and I appear with my colleague,

    20 Mr. Meddegoda, for the Prosecution.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Niemann.

    22 Mr. Mikulicic, will you tell us who is here

    23 for the Defence?

    24 MR. MIKULICIC: My name is Goran Mikulicic,

    25 and with my colleague, Joka, I am representing the

  2. 1 Defence.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Mr. Mikulicic,

    3 it is now your turn to begin.

    4 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, we should like

    5 to call the witness, Anto Jerkovic, who has already

    6 been brought into the courtroom.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Mr. Anto

    8 Jerkovic. Can you hear me? I am speaking to you. Can

    9 you hear me? You will now read the solemn declaration

    10 which you have here before you.

    11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    13 truth.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may sit down, sir, and

    15 answer the questions which Mr. Mikulicic will be asking

    16 you. You may sit down.

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, in view of the

    18 new circumstances or, rather, new environment in this

    19 courtroom, permit me to address the witness from this

    20 place because I have this documentation which is here,

    21 at my bench, or am I supposed to go out and speak from

    22 that microphone as it has been envisaged here? What do

    23 you think?

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe that you can

    25 speak from your place. No problem.

  3. 1 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

    2 have just received a message from my Defendant that he

    3 is not feeling well, that he has some health problems,

    4 and he is kindly asking you if we could make a brief

    5 recess to see what is wrong. Well, you can, of course,

    6 see what the problem is, and whether we can then

    7 continue?

    8 If I may, Your Honour, I should like to talk

    9 to my client to see what is wrong with him. Thank you

    10 very much.


    12 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, Mr. Aleksovski

    13 is not feeling well because, on his way to the court,

    14 he has been put in a room which is very small and where

    15 there is not air, and this environment, the ambient

    16 atmosphere has affected his health. He says he feels

    17 quite all right, but he needs a little bit more air.

    18 So could he please be kept in some other room? In this

    19 particular room, there is simply some bad smell, and it

    20 affects him. So that is his basic problem. He

    21 believes that it could be solved by simply taking a

    22 very short break and taking him to a room which is

    23 likely more airy and which is less contaminated by some

    24 bad smell. I don't know what it's all about. I don't

    25 know what it is.

  4. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Registrar, is there a

    2 way in which we could meet this request?

    3 THE REGISTRAR: No. At the moment, I'm

    4 afraid I cannot answer this question. During the

    5 break, I could perhaps see -- the deputy registrar see

    6 if we can move to another room.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. Mr. Mikulicic,

    8 could we continue now, or does Mr. Aleksovski need a

    9 break or something like that?

    10 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. Aleksovski says that he

    11 will manage until the first break, and then we shall

    12 see what we can do about moving him to another room, so

    13 we can proceed.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Right. So we shall then

    15 proceed. Thank you very much.


    17 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jerkovic.

    19 A. Good morning.

    20 Q. My name is Goran Mikulicic, I am here for the

    21 Defence, and I shall ask you some questions, and I will

    22 ask you now some questions, and please answer them to

    23 the best of your recollection.

    24 Mr. Jerkovic, will you tell us where and when

    25 were you born?

  5. 1 A. On the 6th of December, 1954, in Zenica.

    2 Q. What is your ethnic origin?

    3 A. I'm a Croat.

    4 Q. Are you a believer?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. What religion do you belong to?

    7 A. Croat. I'm of the Croat religion.

    8 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, will you tell us something

    9 about your education?

    10 A. I have grade -- elementary school.

    11 Q. Where did you attend elementary school?

    12 A. Stranjane. Elementary school, Luka Jelicic.

    13 Q. Mr. Jerkovic --

    14 JUDGE VOHRAH: There must some error in the

    15 answer to the question what his religion was. It

    16 couldn't be of the Croat religion, it must be something

    17 else.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much, Your

    19 Honour. We shall correct that in a minute.

    20 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, I asked you what religion did

    21 you belong to. Were you Catholic or Orthodox?

    22 A. Catholic.

    23 Q. Roman Catholic, you mean. Sir, you said you

    24 have elementary school. Where did you live during your

    25 education?

  6. 1 A. In the village of Janjal near Zenica.

    2 Q. What was your first job and where; do you

    3 remember?

    4 A. I do not remember the first time, but I

    5 worked for a Sarajevo company at the Zenica steel

    6 works. The acronym was BRALIM.

    7 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, is it true that you got a job

    8 with the penitentiary in Zenica?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do you remember when it was?

    11 A. 4th of April, 1978.

    12 Q. What were you?

    13 A. I was a guard, security.

    14 Q. Therefore, as of 1978, you have been with the

    15 penitentiary in Zenica as a security guard. Until when

    16 were you there?

    17 A. I worked there until -- I do not know

    18 exactly, but until 1992, until I was mobilised as a

    19 military policeman for the B and H army.

    20 Q. In other words, while you were the guard of

    21 the penitentiary, a war broke out in the territory of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And then the army of B and H mobilised you to

    25 the military police; is that correct?

  7. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. After that mobilisation, did you continue

    3 keeping your job at the penitentiary or not?

    4 A. I worked at the penitentiary, but there was a

    5 department which was part of the military police but it

    6 was within the penitentiary complex.

    7 Q. I see. If I'm correct, you said it was

    8 sometime in the latter half of 1992; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, while you were employed with

    11 the penitentiary in Zenica, did you perhaps meet

    12 Mr. Aleksovski there?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you remember when you met him for the

    15 first time? When was that?

    16 A. I cannot remember that.

    17 Q. Do you remember what post -- what was

    18 Mr. Aleksovski at the penitentiary in Zenica?

    19 A. Yes. He was an educator.

    20 Q. Would you recognise Mr. Aleksovski if you saw

    21 him today?

    22 A. Yes, by all means.

    23 Q. Could you recognise him now, whether he's in

    24 his room?

    25 A. Yes. That is the gentleman up there.

  8. 1 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness

    2 has indicated in the direction of the accused,

    3 Mr. Aleksovski.

    4 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you said, therefore, that

    5 Mr. Aleksovski was an educator at the Zenica

    6 penitentiary?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Could you tell us what was his -- how did he

    9 treat the prisoners?

    10 A. As far as I know, it was good, it was great.

    11 Q. Could you then tell us -- of course, if you

    12 know -- what was his duty as an educator at the

    13 penitentiary? What did he do?

    14 A. Well, he took care of the prisoners. I mean,

    15 he took care of everything, about the state of their

    16 health, about their leaves, weekends, and things like

    17 that.

    18 Q. I see. Can you remember if, at that time,

    19 there were any problems between Mr. Aleksovski and the

    20 inmates? Did they complain against him or not; do you

    21 remember?

    22 A. I don't remember. I don't recall that there

    23 were ever any problems. Everything was, by and large,

    24 quite normal.

    25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember if, at that

  9. 1 time, Mr. Aleksovski treated the prisoners differently

    2 because of their religion, I mean Muslims or Croats?

    3 Did he distinguish between them or did he treat them

    4 all equally?

    5 A. Equally.

    6 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, at a later stage, towards the

    7 end of 1992, you volunteered for the HVO; is that true?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Could you tell us to what HVO unit were you

    10 assigned when you volunteered?

    11 A. The military police again.

    12 Q. The military police.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. So where were you deployed? Where were you

    15 when you became a member of the HVO military police?

    16 A. I was deployed in Vitez, in Vitez, and then

    17 when I came for the job, I was told that I would go to

    18 Kaonik, to the prison in Busovaca.

    19 Q. Do you remember when that was, roughly?

    20 A. On the 7th of January, 1993.

    21 Q. So you came to the military district prison

    22 at Kaonik on the 7th of January, 1993, as a military

    23 policeman. Could you tell us, were you security?

    24 A. Prison security.

    25 Q. In other words, as a guard?

  10. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. I see. Mr. Jerkovic, while you were still

    3 with the penitentiary in Zenica, which is again a

    4 prison, isn't it --

    5 A. Yes, it is.

    6 Q. -- do you remember under what Ministry was

    7 that penitentiary in Zenica, under whose jurisdiction

    8 was it?

    9 A. I think it was the Ministry of Justice.

    10 Q. You said on the 7th of January, 1993, you

    11 were appointed as a guard at the district military

    12 prison at Kaonik. Do you know under which Ministry was

    13 it?

    14 A. I think it was that same Ministry of Justice.

    15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, at the time when you came to

    16 Kaonik to the district military prison, who were and

    17 were there at all any prisoners at the district

    18 military prison?

    19 A. At the time when I came, there were some

    20 under disciplinary measures which the commanders --

    21 that is, people sanctioned by the commanders. There

    22 were a couple of soldiers, I remember, perhaps one or

    23 two soldiers, one or two persons against whom criminal

    24 proceedings were being conducted by the military court.

    25 Q. Do you remember which military court? From

  11. 1 where?

    2 A. From Vitez.

    3 Q. Do you remember if the district military

    4 court in Travnik also had some detainees at the Kaonik

    5 district prison?

    6 A. The district military court in Travnik with a

    7 seat in Vitez.

    8 Q. So at the time when you came to Kaonik, you

    9 found there some detainees detained there on two

    10 different grounds. Some had been remanded into custody

    11 by the district military court, and others were there

    12 serving disciplinary punishment pronounced on some HVO

    13 soldiers by their commanders; is that correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Were there some other persons at the district

    16 military prison in Kaonik or only those that you have

    17 just mentioned?

    18 A. Only those that we have just mentioned.

    19 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember how many guards

    20 were employed by the district military prison in

    21 Kaonik?

    22 A. Well, I wouldn't know the exact number. I

    23 can give you a rough figure because I do not remember

    24 exactly. About 15 people.

    25 Q. And how were they organised? Did they take

  12. 1 shifts or how?

    2 A. Yes, they took shifts.

    3 Q. Do you remember how many shifts were there,

    4 one, two, three, four? How many shifts?

    5 A. We worked 12, 24. Those were our working

    6 hours.

    7 Q. Does that mean 12 hours on duty and then 24

    8 hours off and then again and so on?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. I see. How many guards were on a shift?

    11 A. On a shift, there were four, five people.

    12 Five.

    13 Q. Were all these guards members of the military

    14 police or not?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Were they all?

    17 A. Again, yes.

    18 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember the outbreak of

    19 the conflict between Muslims and Croats in the area of

    20 Busovaca in January 1993? Do you remember when it

    21 began?

    22 A. Yes, I do, on the 24th, 25th of January.

    23 Q. Do you, perhaps, remember the event which

    24 triggered this conflict, the event?

    25 A. It began with the murder of Ivica Petrovic on

  13. 1 the road to the village of Dusina. It was that. I

    2 think it was that event.

    3 Q. Could you then tell us who was Ivica Petrovic

    4 who was killed in the village of Kacuni? Was he a

    5 Croat, a Serb, a Muslim?

    6 A. A Croat.

    7 Q. Could you tell us, that village of Kacuni

    8 where the incident happened, the population who lived

    9 in that village, was it a Muslim village or a Croat or

    10 was it mixed; do you know?

    11 A. Well, I'm not from Zenica, so I --

    12 Q. So you don't know?

    13 A. I don't.

    14 Q. You said that this incident marked the

    15 beginning of the conflict on the 25th of January, 1993

    16 between Muslims and Croats in the area of the

    17 municipality of Busovaca; is that correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. After that event, did the conflict escalate?

    20 I mean, the armed fighting? Was there any fire; do you

    21 remember?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Where were you at the time?

    24 A. I was commuting. I was commuting from home

    25 to work and back. As there were no problems and

  14. 1 nothing, so I commuted from work to home and from home

    2 to work.

    3 Q. At that time, you lived in Zenica still?

    4 A. Yes, yes.

    5 Q. As long as the roads were open, you travelled

    6 normally from Zenica to Kaonik?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. How far is it? Do you remember how many

    9 kilometres?

    10 A. I believe around 20, 25 kilometres, 22,

    11 thereabouts.

    12 Q. However, after the 25th when armed fighting

    13 began, you could not travel any more; is that true?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Then you had to stay in Kaonik. You couldn't

    16 go back to Zenica; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, it is.

    18 Q. At that time, did you stay within Kaonik?

    19 Did you sleep there or live there?

    20 A. Yes, yes.

    21 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, could you tell us, after the

    22 conflict broke out in the area of the municipality of

    23 Busovaca, do you remember if any civilians were brought

    24 to Kaonik from the territory of Busovaca?

    25 A. Yes.

  15. 1 Q. Do you remember how? Were they transported

    2 to Kaonik? Were they brought by the HVO army or

    3 somebody else?

    4 A. By the military police, the army of HVO.

    5 Q. What did the HVO policemen say when they

    6 brought them to Kaonik?

    7 A. That they had to be accommodated and that

    8 they had to stay there until it calmed down, until

    9 things became clearer.

    10 Q. So is that true, that the military police

    11 brought those people to accommodate them temporarily

    12 until the conflict ended; is that what you were told?

    13 A. Yes, yes.

    14 Q. Were you present at the time when those

    15 people were brought to Kaonik?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, the Kaonik facility, it was the

    18 barracks of the former JNA; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes, it is.

    20 Q. And that facility comprises several

    21 buildings; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you know what was the purpose of those

    24 buildings in the JNA time?

    25 A. Those were hangars, ammunition depot, I mean,

  16. 1 explosive devices.

    2 Q. And one of those hangars which housed the

    3 district military prison was rebuilt, redone into

    4 cells; is that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. How many cells were there in one of the

    7 buildings which was redone in that manner?

    8 A. About 14 or 15, I don't remember exactly, but

    9 about 14 or 15.

    10 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, can you tell us, in these

    11 cells, were there already some detainees, as you told

    12 us a moment ago? How many more people could be

    13 accommodated there?

    14 A. Well, one could put there -- well, about 50

    15 to 60 people.

    16 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Jerkovic, how many

    17 people did the military police bring out of the

    18 conflict in the territory of Busovaca to Kaonik? How

    19 many of them? Was it more than 50 or 60 or less?

    20 A. More.

    21 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Jerkovic, that you could

    22 not accommodate these people in the prison facilities?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So where did you put these people if you

    25 could not put them in the prison facility?

  17. 1 A. There is a hangar next to this hangar, and

    2 then we put them there, because down there they could

    3 not fit in all.

    4 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you said that you came to

    5 Kaonik on the 7th of January, '93?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Has anyone from that day -- did anyone

    8 between that day, the day when you were informed that

    9 civilians would be brought in, did anybody there tell

    10 you that this would happen?

    11 A. No, nobody did.

    12 Q. Does that mean that you could not prepare any

    13 accommodation facilities for those people?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. But you nevertheless managed somehow; you

    16 provided some accommodation. Could you tell us, what

    17 did you do in order to provide them with some

    18 accommodation facilities?

    19 A. Well, we had some racks, some shelves that

    20 were there. I don't know what they were for, and we

    21 put them down there. And we took also some boards,

    22 some wooden planks, to put them down, and some

    23 blankets. So some they put underneath and some they

    24 used to cover themselves.

    25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, the people that were brought by

  18. 1 the military police in Kaonik, did you, in any way,

    2 make any lists about them?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What does it mean?

    5 A. It was already dusk, and there was a table,

    6 and all approached that table, and we put their names

    7 on a list. And I know from previous experience in

    8 Zenica how this protocol is made, so whether I was

    9 there or somebody else -- and since I had the most

    10 experience and the others hadn't such an experience

    11 because they didn't work in penitentiaries before,

    12 individually, we invited each of them to approach the

    13 table and put their names, family names and first

    14 names. And then we took some documents -- not

    15 documents, but if they had something on them, knives

    16 and other things, for security reasons.

    17 Q. So you said that when these people were

    18 approached that you made a list that identified

    19 themselves and that you took away from them some

    20 objects that could be, you know, arms, like knives; is

    21 that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Tell me again, did you take some private

    24 things from them like private possessions like money,

    25 like watches, like jewellery, or did you leave that on

  19. 1 them?

    2 A. We didn't take that because we didn't have

    3 anywhere to put it. And it remained with them.

    4 Q. You said that when they were brought, it was

    5 already dark and that for the reception and a listing,

    6 that it was done in a hangar that was above the prison;

    7 is that correct?

    8 A. Yes, it is correct.

    9 Q. Was there any electricity in the hangar?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. How could you see then? How could you write

    12 their names and surnames? Did you have --

    13 A. Well, we brought the candle. Because there

    14 were frequent electricity cuts, we had candles, and I

    15 brought one or two candles. And that's how we wrote

    16 their names.

    17 Q. You said, Mr. Jerkovic, that there were

    18 frequent electricity cuts. Does that mean that the

    19 situation was such that the entire facility of Kaonik

    20 would remain without electricity?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Do you remember what was the situation with

    23 water supply? Were there any cuts again?

    24 A. That situation was poor too as far as water

    25 supply is concerned. It was cold. The pipes broke.

  20. 1 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, however, in the vicinity of

    2 that hangar, there was a well, is that correct, from

    3 where you could take water when there was no water in

    4 the facility, when the pipes broke down? Do you

    5 remember, was there a well or not?

    6 A. The well, it was not so close, yes, but we

    7 did bring some water. It was further down there, but

    8 we had some plastic containers later from which we took

    9 water.

    10 Q. So there were problems with water supply?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, tell us, the people who were

    13 placed in that hangar, how did you organise -- what was

    14 the organisation in the hangar when people had to go to

    15 the toilet, when they had to wash themselves, to take a

    16 bath?

    17 A. Well, we did make some makeshift toilet

    18 outside. So the guard who was there, the prisoner

    19 would knock and they would let him out. And as for

    20 washing, we had some -- we took from the army large

    21 containers, and we brought water, and it was taken in

    22 and then they could wash up their faces and...

    23 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, so you were there with those

    24 people, with people who were taken from Busovaca. Did

    25 you personally notice or see that these people were

  21. 1 beaten or harassed or maltreated in any other way. Did

    2 you see that?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Did you find yourself in a situation that

    5 some of these people would complain to you because of

    6 the treatment of some guards or something like that?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Did some of these people complain to you

    9 about health problems or did they seek medical care?

    10 A. Yes, there were such cases.

    11 Q. What did you do then?

    12 A. We took them to the outpatient units in

    13 Busovaca to see the doctor.

    14 Q. How did you take them there? Did you have a

    15 vehicle?

    16 A. Yes, we had a vehicle, but you never knew

    17 what could happen because it broke down. So doctors

    18 would frequently come to the prison in order to check

    19 up on the prisoners or for some other business.

    20 Q. Do you remember that somebody who sought

    21 medical care or to see a doctor, that this was refused

    22 or denied?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Does it mean that all those who sought

    25 medical care could receive it?

  22. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. When you took those persons to the doctor in

    3 Busovaca, how far is it from Kaonik? How many

    4 kilometres?

    5 A. Well, about five kilometres away.

    6 Q. Were they handcuffed or were their hands tied

    7 in any way?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. When you took them to see a doctor, where did

    10 they wait to see the doctor?

    11 A. Well, where the other people were sitting,

    12 like, civilians. There was an area where people were

    13 waiting to see a doctor, and they were brought there,

    14 and they waited along with the others.

    15 Q. So there were no special protection and

    16 safety measures like being handcuffed and surveillance

    17 of these people when they were taken to see a doctor?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember when Zlatko

    20 Aleksovski came to Kaonik; before or after you?

    21 A. He came after, I think, at the start of

    22 February. I can't remember exactly the date, at the

    23 end of January.

    24 Q. Do you remember the people that were brought

    25 by military police from Busovaca, and these civilians,

  23. 1 how long did they say in Kaonik, until which date?

    2 A. I can't remember exactly the date, but it was

    3 for a short time, a very short time.

    4 Q. I see. What was the food? What did these

    5 people eat and where was the food brought to them, from

    6 where?

    7 A. We had all the same food. Some food was

    8 brought from Draga. We had a kitchen down there, and

    9 people would bring food, the same food for us and for

    10 prisoners. It was the same food. There was no

    11 difference. We all ate from the same mess.

    12 Q. You said now that some part of the food was

    13 brought from Draga. Is that Draga, was that a barrack,

    14 an HVO barracks or what?

    15 A. It was an HVO barrack.

    16 Q. Was it in the area of Busovaca or somewhere

    17 else?

    18 A. In the area of Busovaca.

    19 Q. You also said that food was prepared in a

    20 kitchen that was part of the same facility in Kaonik;

    21 is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Where was the kitchen?

    24 A. At the very entrance of the Kaonik barracks.

    25 Q. Who was in that building? Who was

  24. 1 accommodated there in that facility which served as a

    2 kitchen?

    3 A. At the time, we had a cook who was preparing

    4 food for us in the military police at that time.

    5 Q. Was there also military policemen, not

    6 guards, but members of the military police units?

    7 A. Yes. There were some of them there.

    8 Q. Is it then correct that the cook who prepared

    9 food in that facility was cooking for members of the

    10 military police who were accommodated in that facility

    11 and for prisoners and detainees, civilians who were in

    12 the district prison; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Jerkovic, what were the

    15 meals? What kind of food did you eat?

    16 A. For the most part, we had beans, potatoes,

    17 you know, things like that, lentils.

    18 Q. Was there any meat?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How many meals a day were prepared in this

    21 way?

    22 A. Three, three meals.

    23 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, in the room in which people

    24 were temporarily accommodated, in that hangar, was

    25 there any heating there?

  25. 1 A. Yes, we had a furnace there, because there

    2 were two in the prison, and then one was put up there.

    3 Q. So you took the furnace up there when the

    4 people were brought there in order to warm them up; is

    5 that correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you remember whether these people were

    8 preparing tea on that furnace?

    9 A. Yes, there were large utensils in which they

    10 could prepare tea, and people were drinking tea all the

    11 time.

    12 Q. This furnace, what kind of fuel was used,

    13 timber, oil?

    14 A. Mostly timber, wood.

    15 Q. Who was feeding the furnace?

    16 A. They themselves did that.

    17 Q. Where did they find wood? Was there enough

    18 wood?

    19 A. Well, not really, because we were cutting

    20 wood around the prison because it is in the woods. So

    21 we could cut wood there.

    22 Q. If I understood you correctly, so there was

    23 not enough wood that was prepared for heating, so you

    24 had to cut wood in the surrounding woods; is that

    25 correct?

  26. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jerkovic, we were discussing and

    3 we heard that people could see a doctor if they sought

    4 so in Busovaca. Do you remember that after seeing some

    5 of these people, the doctor would seek, for instance, a

    6 release on medical grounds; do you remember that? Were

    7 there any cases like that?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did you accept those medical instructions?

    10 Did you release those people and send them home?

    11 A. Yes, we did accept the instructions from the

    12 doctor.

    13 Q. You also said that those people were

    14 temporarily placed in that facility. And during that

    15 time, did they have some compulsory obligations like

    16 work; do you remember?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Is it true that these civilians were taken

    19 from Kaonik for compulsory work outside the Kaonik

    20 facility?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Do you remember who would come to take them

    23 out from Kaonik for compulsory work obligations?

    24 A. The army, HVO.

    25 Q. When the army came there and asked to be

  27. 1 given a certain number of people for compulsory work

    2 obligation, what would they say? Where were they

    3 taking them?

    4 A. Trench digging.

    5 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, how did you select people for

    6 trench digging? Was it at random or did you have some

    7 other way of who was going to do that? Can you explain

    8 that?

    9 A. We had a list of all people. When they were

    10 brought to prison, because it was cold, all the people

    11 were put to prison cells downstairs because we were

    12 trying to put the elderly and the sick down there in

    13 the prison.

    14 Q. Why, because conditions were better?

    15 A. Yes, precisely because of that. And the

    16 others who were up there in the hangar, we had a list

    17 and we selected -- there was a roll call, when we

    18 needed 10 or 15 people, and we checked out or put a

    19 mark of how many people were taken, so that we know who

    20 was taken in order to avoid repetition, or all the same

    21 people would be doing that job all the time.

    22 Q. Is that then correct, that, in this way, you

    23 took care to distribute the burden evenly?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Did you also take care about medical

  28. 1 recommendations, so when the doctor said that some

    2 people should not be taken out to work?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You also said, Mr. Jerkovic, that for trench

    5 digging and compulsory work obligation, that they were

    6 taken by military police of the HVO. Did they drive

    7 them also?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did somebody from the guards, from Kaonik,

    10 accompany them or not?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Does it mean that when HVO army or military

    13 police took them from Kaonik, that they were

    14 responsible for those people?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, when these people were returned

    17 to you from compulsory work obligation, when they were

    18 returned to Kaonik, did you see or check that the same

    19 people were returned to you?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did you notice at any time that some of the

    22 people who were returned to you, that they were injured

    23 or wounded, or did something like that happen?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. What was your reaction? Did you take these

  29. 1 people to see the doctor?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Did you complain to the military police about

    4 the injuring of these people when they were outside

    5 Kaonik?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Did it sometimes happen that people who were

    8 taken away for compulsory work obligation were not

    9 returned to Kaonik?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. What would you then do when you saw that

    12 somebody was not returned to you?

    13 A. We would report about that, and then we would

    14 ask them what happened, and we were told that they

    15 escaped, simply that they escaped.

    16 Q. Do you personally know that there were such

    17 escapes from compulsory work obligation? Did you

    18 personally know that?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Do you perhaps know of a case, of an event

    21 that happened shortly before these people were released

    22 from Kaonik, were released to go home, that two of them

    23 were taken for work obligation, that they died? Do you

    24 know of such an event?

    25 A. Yes.

  30. 1 Q. Do you know that connected with that, that

    2 criminal proceedings were instigated before a court

    3 because of that?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you also said that after

    6 military police, HVO military police, would take people

    7 out from Kaonik for their compulsory work obligation,

    8 that they were then under their responsibility and

    9 jurisdiction?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did you know that people who were taken out

    12 from Kaonik in this way were used as human shields?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Did some of those people ever tell you that

    15 they were used as a human shield at any occasion? Have

    16 you heard something like that from anyone?

    17 A. No, I haven't.

    18 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you also said that Aleksovski

    19 came to Kaonik at the end of January or beginning of

    20 February, you can't remember the date. What was the

    21 way in which he treated prisoners and people who were

    22 detained, like civilians from Busovaca? What was his

    23 treatment?

    24 A. Good.

    25 Q. Do you remember whether Aleksovski met their

  31. 1 requests in some ways, whether he would allow them to

    2 go home, to take some clothing, or whether he allowed

    3 them -- that their families brought them food? Do you

    4 know?

    5 A. Yes, things like that happened.

    6 Q. Do you remember whether the people who were

    7 Muslims by religion, whether these people had the

    8 opportunity to observe their religious ceremonies?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Whether they used that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Whether somebody from the guards prevented

    13 them from observing their religious beliefs?

    14 A. To my knowledge, no.

    15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember that, in

    16 Kaonik, precisely for that purpose, for religious

    17 purposes, a Muslim priest or a hodja would arrive?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Where did he come from, from which place; do

    20 you know that? From Busovaca or from somewhere else?

    21 A. I don't know where from, but he did arrive

    22 there.

    23 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, tell me, when this hodja would

    24 arrive, did he have the opportunity to remain alone

    25 with the believers for these religious purposes?

  32. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did somebody disturb them then?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Do you remember whether the priest or the

    5 hodja, would he bring with him some food for his

    6 believers?

    7 A. Yes, he brought some cakes.

    8 Q. We spoke about the Kaonik facility as a

    9 former JNA barracks. Do you know that -- although you

    10 are not from that area, but you did work there for some

    11 time, do you know whether, in the area of Busovaca

    12 there was any similar facility like the former JNA

    13 barracks at Kaonik where a large number of people were

    14 accommodated, or was Kaonik the only such facility in

    15 the Busovaca area?

    16 A. I think that Kaonik was the only such

    17 facility.

    18 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, the people who were brought

    19 shortly after the first conflict broke out on the 25th

    20 or 26th of January remained for some time in Kaonik.

    21 You said you don't remember when they were released

    22 from Kaonik. But in any case, after the first conflict

    23 between the Croats and Muslims, there was a lull;

    24 right?

    25 A. Yes.

  33. 1 Q. So occasionally the roads were secure and you

    2 could use them -- how long did it last? -- when a new

    3 armed conflict broke out in the Busovaca area?

    4 A. I think in April.

    5 Q. In April. Did any of the civilians that were

    6 taken to Kaonik at the end of January, were they there

    7 in February or March, until the renewal of armed

    8 conflicts, or they were all released?

    9 A. They were all released.

    10 Q. So in the interval between the first conflict

    11 at the end of January and the second conflict somewhere

    12 in April, is it true then that in Kaonik only detainees

    13 from the district military court were accommodated?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. So no other civilians were there; is that

    16 correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. So when the conflict broke out for the second

    19 time, and you already said it was in April, were again

    20 people from the area of Busovaca, the municipality of

    21 Busovaca, brought to Kaonik once again, as in the first

    22 case?

    23 A. Very few. Very few, not really, but there

    24 were.

    25 Q. Do you remember what villages those people

  34. 1 came, if you know those villages, as you are not a

    2 local man?

    3 A. No, I don't know.

    4 Q. That second conflict was quite fierce; is

    5 that true?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. At that time, some changes happened as

    8 regards the guards at Kaonik; is that true?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is it true that in April, the guards, and you

    11 just said those are military policemen, in Kaonik, were

    12 mobilised from the prison and sent to the frontline?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. In other words, sometime in April, you left

    15 Kaonik?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Why did you have to leave Kaonik?

    18 A. There were very few people, there was a lot

    19 of problems, and on the frontline, simply very many

    20 people, even those under disciplinary measures, were

    21 released and sent to the frontline, and we also went to

    22 the frontline.

    23 Q. Does that mean that the Muslim attacks were

    24 so forceful that all the men capable of defence had to

    25 be mobilised?

  35. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did this involve also people who were under

    3 disciplinary sanctions, rather, who were serving for

    4 disciplinary reasons, were they also mobilised?

    5 A. Yes, they were.

    6 Q. Do you remember, after the guards, after the

    7 military police left Kaonik, do you know who took over

    8 the security of Kaonik?

    9 A. Domobrans.

    10 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, for the record, could you

    11 explain who are Domobrans, what category of people are

    12 they?

    13 A. Well, these are mostly elderly men, over 50

    14 or 60.

    15 Q. Is it true that those people were reserve and

    16 were mobilised as such?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. But who, in view of their age, were not

    19 capable of participating in combat?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. So these people were then appointed as guards

    22 in Kaonik to replace the military police?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. You mentioned that the defence lines, when

    25 they were deployed, were actually very close to Kaonik;

  36. 1 is that true?

    2 A. It is.

    3 Q. Could you tell us how far was it from the

    4 Kaonik facility, how far was the defence line from it?

    5 A. Well, for instance, those sides which were

    6 the closest, well, there was at the Lasva River, Bulva,

    7 but as the crow flies, perhaps a kilometre, kilometre

    8 and a half or two.

    9 Q. Does that mean that the Kaonik facility, in

    10 view of that nearness from the defence lines, as the

    11 crow flies, does it mean that it was also exposed to

    12 fire?

    13 A. It was.

    14 Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether

    15 any of the detainees or internees in Kaonik were

    16 injured due to this, that is, suffer an injury because

    17 of a shell or whatever which perhaps hit Kaonik?

    18 A. I know that two or three Domobrans were

    19 injured by shells.

    20 Q. You're referring to guards, also Domobrans?

    21 A. Domobrans.

    22 Q. But were any of the prisoners injured?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember if Kaonik

    25 prison and the whole facility was ever visited by

  37. 1 representatives of international organisations?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Which were those organisations?

    4 A. The Red Cross.

    5 Q. Did the representatives of the Red Cross

    6 visiting Kaonik have an opportunity of talking to

    7 prisoners and internees? Could they talk to them?

    8 A. They could.

    9 Q. Could they talk to them, that is, without the

    10 presence of guards?

    11 A. Yes, they could.

    12 Q. Could the prisoners send letters or messages

    13 to their families through the Red Cross?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. In that sense, that is communication through

    16 the Red Cross, did the prison guards or the prison

    17 warden ever forbid any such communication?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Since we mention now the prison warden, we

    20 shall also say something about Mr. Aleksovski. You

    21 said he arrived sometime towards the end of January or

    22 early February to become the commander of the prison;

    23 is that correct?

    24 A. It is.

    25 Q. Was Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski a member of the

  38. 1 military police like the guards in Kaonik?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Do you know if he was a member of any other

    4 military unit, if not the military police, was he a

    5 member of any military unit?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. But, Mr. Jerkovic, we've heard in the earlier

    8 proceedings from witnesses that they saw Mr. Aleksovski

    9 in a military uniform at times. Did you ever see him

    10 wearing a military uniform?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Did he have any insignia, any patches or any

    13 rank insignia, on his uniform?

    14 A. No. At the time, everybody sported such

    15 uniforms. I mean, I saw him usually wearing a vest and

    16 also civilian trousers or something like that, or even

    17 those military -- German military jumpers or something

    18 like that.

    19 Q. You mentioned jumpers of the German army.

    20 Could you remind us all here in the courtroom what kind

    21 of jumpers are those? What are they?

    22 A. Well, they are sweaters, knitwear, and they

    23 have something in leather and then the flag, I think,

    24 or something like that.

    25 Q. So it was a military sweater with a German

  39. 1 flag on the sleeve; is that correct?

    2 A. It is.

    3 Q. Once (sic) those sweaters?

    4 A. Once.

    5 Q. I'm asking you so that the Court could hear.

    6 Could you buy them in a shop?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Was it kind of aid or relief that was sent in

    9 clothing?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you mentioned that

    12 Mr. Aleksovski wore a military uniform at times but

    13 that it was a common sight at the time, that is,

    14 civilians wore them. Why was that so? What do you

    15 think? Could the reason be that the supply in clothing

    16 and footwear was poor?

    17 A. Well, yes. There were quite a number of

    18 people from Zenica, and they had nothing. They had no

    19 clothes or shoes, and they wore whatever they could lay

    20 their hands on.

    21 Q. So in the territory or municipality of

    22 Busovaca, there were also Croat refugees from Zenica

    23 and other parts?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, were you present when a

  40. 1 prisoner or internee complained to the International

    2 Red Cross representatives or international observers of

    3 the treatment they would receive from the guards or

    4 others in the prison? Have you ever heard anything

    5 like that?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Did you ever see anyone ill-treat those

    8 people, I mean, guards or somebody else of those who

    9 were serving terms for either crimes or for

    10 disciplinary reasons?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Do you remember any incidents when HVO

    13 members might try to enter the prison or did enter the

    14 prison and do something there; do you remember any such

    15 events?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. When HVO soldiers would break into the

    18 prison, would the guards manage to stop those soldiers

    19 or did sometimes they manage to get in?

    20 A. Yes, at times they did get in.

    21 Q. Why was it that the guards could not prevent

    22 them from entering the prison?

    23 A. Because they were all armed. Everybody

    24 carried weapons, and then what? What to do?

    25 Q. Do you know if, after such events, you or

  41. 1 some other guard or the prison warden would notify the

    2 military command and say that steps had to be taken

    3 against such perpetrators?

    4 A. Yes, the warden did. He submitted a report

    5 that they had been there and that measures should be

    6 taken.

    7 Q. Do you know if any measures were taken

    8 against those perpetrators? Do you know that?

    9 A. I think -- I believe there were.

    10 Q. Was that a daily occurrence?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Does it mean that such situations were an

    13 exception?

    14 A. Yes, they were an exception.

    15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you were an HVO soldier, you

    16 were a military policeman, you took part in the defence

    17 of the municipality of Busovaca, you were on the

    18 frontline. Did you ever see near you or in the

    19 municipality of Busovaca or in Kaonik a soldier bearing

    20 the insignia "HV"?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Did you ever see a soldier with some other

    23 insignia other than HVO?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you spent almost the whole of

  42. 1 January there, then February, March, and a large part

    2 of April, so four months you were a guard in Kaonik?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. So during that time, you could really get

    5 familiar with the prison, with the conditions there.

    6 So could you describe to us this lower part, this lower

    7 floor where the cells were, were they locked by key or

    8 did they have a bolt or what?

    9 A. They did not have a key, but there were two

    10 bolts on the upper part of the door and on the lower

    11 part of the door. There were no keys.

    12 Q. How many persons could be put in a cell,

    13 roughly?

    14 A. Well, while we had those pallets (sic) there,

    15 there were perhaps five or six persons.

    16 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, but were there any such

    17 situations where more than five or six persons were in

    18 a cell?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Was it for a long period of time or --

    21 A. No, it was only provisional. That was that

    22 first conflict when we separated those elderly; then at

    23 times, there were even as many as 10 or 15, but they

    24 did not care that they could lie down or sit down or

    25 read, only to be warm or to be comfortable.

  43. 1 Q. But that situation did not last for long?

    2 A. No, it is quite true. It did not.

    3 Q. How long did it last?

    4 A. Well, I don't know. A few days perhaps or a

    5 week, something like that.

    6 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, now I'm referring to the second

    7 conflict in particular. Do you recall any situation

    8 when the population of nearby villages, where the

    9 fighting was taking place, would they come to Kaonik

    10 seeking protection? Were there such cases?

    11 A. Yes, there were.

    12 Q. What did you do when people came to you and

    13 asked you to be shielded from the conflict? Did you

    14 let them enter and offer them shelter, or did you

    15 refuse them?

    16 A. No, we did not refuse them, no. People were

    17 afraid. Skradno, for instance, it was the frontline,

    18 and those places, and they were safer there than at

    19 home.

    20 Q. So you provided no (sic) accommodation and

    21 food; is that true?

    22 A. Yes, it is.

    23 Q. But that was also for a few days or for a

    24 longer period of time?

    25 A. For several days.

  44. 1 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, who were those people who asked

    2 for protection? Were they Croats, Muslims, or who?

    3 A. Muslims.

    4 Q. Was there enough food at Kaonik?

    5 A. I believe there was. For a while, we did not

    6 have three meals a day, we only had two, but it was for

    7 everybody. I mean, everybody got two meals. Simply

    8 the supply was bad, and for a while, we could not. So

    9 that for a while, we had to cut it down to two meals.

    10 Q. Did it take long? How long did it last; do

    11 you remember?

    12 A. Well, not -- not really. I should say for

    13 about 20, 25 days, or maybe a month, but not more.

    14 Q. But when was that? During the first or

    15 during the second conflict; do you remember that?

    16 A. I do not remember exactly.

    17 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, at the time when there was

    18 enough food, did you meet the request of those persons

    19 who wanted a second helping? Could you help those who

    20 simply asked for more?

    21 A. Well, we distributed food as long as there

    22 was, and as much as we could. Yes, I know there was

    23 one who -- who was really hungry at lunchtime, and I

    24 think he had some six or seven helpings. We kept

    25 pouring him food, and he ate as long as he could.

  45. 1 Q. Is it true that you never put any limits on

    2 the food that you had at your disposal?

    3 A. Correct.

    4 Q. And that you got the same food as the

    5 prisoners?

    6 A. The same food.

    7 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you mentioned that there were

    8 the toilet facilities, which was a makeshift thing, and

    9 it was outside the building, outside the second hangar,

    10 but how about the first building where the cells were?

    11 A. Well, there we had the toilet facility

    12 within -- inside the prison, near the cells, so there

    13 was also a bathroom and the WC.

    14 Q. Was this the prisoners' WC?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And the guards used the same facility?

    17 A. No, they had their own.

    18 Q. So this WC was at the disposal of prisoners?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you were a prison guard for

    21 quite a long time and became familiar with conditions

    22 in the prison, at the penitentiary in Zenica. Apart

    23 from Zenica, and I'm not referring to Kaonik, did you

    24 work anywhere else?

    25 A. Only there. Only Zenica and Kaonik.

  46. 1 Q. But you do have some experience as regards

    2 the prison guards and their treatment, their attitude

    3 to prisoners; is that true?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. So, Mr. Jerkovic, how would you describe the

    6 attitude of Mr. Aleksovski as the warden of the

    7 district military prison in Kaonik towards the

    8 prisoners and detainees, that is, the civilians also,

    9 who were brought during the first and the second

    10 conflict to Kaonik? How would you describe his

    11 attitude to them?

    12 A. I think that Zlatko did really all he could

    13 for all these people, and I really think that these

    14 people -- that quite a number of these people should be

    15 quite grateful to Zlatko, and I mean Zlatko in person,

    16 because all that could be done through the Red Cross

    17 and through all those, all that one could -- and as far

    18 as one could, it was like that. There were no

    19 problems, visits or visits home or bringing food or

    20 whatever.

    21 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, does that mean that you did not

    22 ever hear that he ever refused to do something, to do

    23 something that was within his power?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. Did he ever refuse to give people food?

  47. 1 A. Oh, come, no.

    2 Q. Did he ever deny them medical help, if need

    3 be?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Did he ever interfere, if such incidents

    6 occurred, did he ever report to the military police

    7 that they were happening?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did Zlatko Aleksovski, in your view -- could

    10 Zlatko Aleksovski, if you know, send a military

    11 policeman or an HVO soldier responsible for an incident

    12 punish personally or could answer disciplinary measure

    13 against him, could he do that? Did he have such

    14 authority?

    15 A. No, no.

    16 Q. But who had the authority to punish a

    17 military policeman for an omission or perhaps a

    18 transgression?

    19 A. A commander.

    20 Q. The commander of what?

    21 A. The commander of the military police.

    22 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, I have only just one more, a

    23 very short question.

    24 Mr. Jerkovic, you mentioned in the beginning

    25 that you organised the reception of those people and

  48. 1 that you did what you could under the circumstances,

    2 that nobody had announced that those people would be

    3 brought in. Could you tell us, in your view, if you

    4 did what you could under the circumstances to

    5 accommodate those people in Kaonik?

    6 A. I believe I did.

    7 Q. Did you give them something that you -- was

    8 there something that you didn't give them and you

    9 could? I mean, were there any medicines or something

    10 that you had in storage and yet you did not provide

    11 those people with?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Does that mean that all that you had at your

    14 disposal, I mean, food, doctors' help, hygiene,

    15 et cetera?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Do you remember, if any of those people who

    18 were temporarily in Kaonik, did he ever suffer, fall

    19 seriously?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Was anyone injured, have a wound, a fracture

    22 or something?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Was anybody killed within the Kaonik

    25 facility?

  49. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Did you ever see anyone being beaten within

    3 Kaonik?

    4 A. No.

    5 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much, Your

    6 Honours. We have no further questions.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I have just learned that

    8 measures have been taken to meet the request of

    9 Mr. Aleksovski, but it takes a long time, so that at

    10 the moment, we shall make -- and I think it is a good

    11 moment to take a break, and the break will be 30

    12 minutes.

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: Excuse me. I have just

    14 received another message from my client. Yesterday, a

    15 doctor visited him because his pressure has gone up,

    16 and he is asking if he could stay in the courtroom

    17 during the break because he feels much better here --

    18 this is a larger room and the air is much better --

    19 and not to be taken to the small room in which he was

    20 accommodated previously.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, I think that

    22 Mr. Aleksovski can stay here, but then we do not need

    23 30 minutes, and in that case, the break will be 20

    24 minutes only. Twenty minutes.

    25 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

  50. 1 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, can we

    4 continue?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: I'll try it at this stand.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. You can now

    7 continue. You can start your cross-examination, if you

    8 like.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

    10 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

    11 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you said that you were working

    12 in the Zenica prison, I think, as a guard from between

    13 1978 and 1992; is that correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Now, that prison, did that come under the

    16 administration of the Department of Justice as well?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Who provided the police? Sorry, who provided

    19 the guards, I mean, the guards that were at the prison

    20 in Zenica?

    21 A. I think the same.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann, I

    23 believe we have a problem. The reporter cannot hear.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: I'll move back, Your Honours,

    25 if it's easier.

  51. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Thank you.

    2 Yes, you can continue, thank you very much. But

    3 perhaps you could start from the beginning because the

    4 court reporter could not hear anything.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.

    6 Q. I asked you a moment ago, and we just have to

    7 repeat it for the purposes of the court reporter, but I

    8 think it's your evidence that from 1978, or

    9 thereabouts, to 1992, you were a guard at Zenica, at

    10 the Zenica prison?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. As I understand it, the prison itself came

    13 under the administration of the Department of Justice

    14 in Zenica. And the guards, they were supplied by the

    15 police, were they?

    16 A. I don't know. Which police do you imply, the

    17 military or the guards in the prison? Because I worked

    18 as a guard in the penitentiary which was a civilian

    19 institution, or do you imply a military institution?

    20 Q. That's really what I was trying to get at. I

    21 was wondering if you could help me with that. It was a

    22 civilian institution. Were the guards provided by the

    23 civilian police, I think you called it the MUP, or was

    24 there some other arrangement with respect to the

    25 guards?

  52. 1 A. MUP, no, because we went to the justice

    2 ministry to be ordained in the police, if I may say so.

    3 Q. Now, Zenica, I take it, at least during the

    4 time you were there, was a civilian prison and not a

    5 military prison like Kaonik?

    6 A. A civilian, yes.

    7 Q. Now, I think you said in 1992 you were then

    8 mobilised into the military police. You were mobilised

    9 into the military police of the army of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And that was still in Zenica?

    13 A. In the Zenica penitentiary.

    14 Q. So you continued on in the Zenica prison but

    15 this time as a member of the military police of the

    16 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. So I take it that, at least at some time in

    19 1992, Zenica prison changed its classification from

    20 that of a civilian prison to a military prison, because

    21 obviously you were there as a military policeman?

    22 A. One of our departments -- there were five

    23 departments in the Zenica prison, and the fifth

    24 department, when we began the war with the Serbs, the

    25 number of the prisoners were decreased, they were

  53. 1 released conditionally, so there were a small number of

    2 them. And the fifth unit was then separated. It was

    3 already separated, and then it was appointed for the

    4 Serbs who were arrested in the Zenica area, in the

    5 villages. And they were brought there in the fifth

    6 unit, and this is where I was employed, because

    7 military policemen who had no experience could not do

    8 that. So there were about four of us who were

    9 mobilised for the military police for the

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina army.

    11 Q. What are you saying? Are you saying that in

    12 1992 not all the guards at the Zenica prison joined the

    13 military police of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but

    14 only some of them; is that what you're saying?

    15 A. No. Yes, yes.

    16 Q. I might just get you to clarify that, if I

    17 may. Are you saying that only some of the guards

    18 joined the military police of the army of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina? I need to get it clear for the

    20 transcript. That's all.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Thank you. Now, when you met Mr. Aleksovski

    23 in the Zenica prison, I think you described him as an

    24 educator. What role did he play there?

    25 A. Yes.

  54. 1 Q. What did he do?

    2 A. He had his own job. He was educator. He was

    3 in charge of one of the units, and he was in charge of

    4 that unit entirely. He cared about the prisoners. He

    5 was in charge of their release. He decided when they

    6 would go home or when they would be taken, about their

    7 health care, about everything. I mean, he was like a

    8 mother to them.

    9 Q. Was he the warden at the Zenica prison?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. So somebody else was the warden, was there,

    12 at Zenica?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And that was right up until the time in 1992

    15 when you finally went to the HVO?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. When you were in Zenica, was Mr. Aleksovski

    18 your superior?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. But he was in a more senior position than

    21 you, I take it?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Now, I think your evidence is that you went

    24 to Kaonik in 1993, and you arrived there before

    25 Mr. Aleksovski had taken up the position as warden or

  55. 1 commander of the prison at Kaonik?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Now, do you know who was there ahead of him

    4 as warden or commander of the prison in Kaonik when you

    5 arrived?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. You didn't know who the person was that was

    8 in charge?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Was there anyone in charge in that stage that

    11 you can remember?

    12 A. No, there was just military police.

    13 Q. So they didn't have a warden then?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Tell me about it. How did you transfer from

    16 the military police of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    17 to the HVO? How did you go about that?

    18 A. I sought myself the transfer because I wanted

    19 to go to the HVO.

    20 Q. Did you have to be discharged from the

    21 military police of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. I take it you just did this off your own bat,

    24 did you? You just decided that you would join the HVO,

    25 so you left the military police of the army of

  56. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and simply went to the HVO of your

    2 own accord?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Can you remember when it was, as best you

    5 can, when Mr. Aleksovski came to the Kaonik prison?

    6 A. I can't remember the exact date, somewhere at

    7 the start of February, around that time, at the end of

    8 January and the beginning of February, sometime around

    9 that date.

    10 Q. You don't know whether he was there at the

    11 time the conflict started in the Busovaca region? You

    12 can't remember?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Now, just going back to the time you're in

    15 Zenica and you said the prison came under the Ministry

    16 of Justice, how did you know that? How did you know it

    17 came under the Ministry of Justice?

    18 A. I knew that. Simply, I knew that, because

    19 when the police was also under the justice ministry, I

    20 simply received salaries and wages from the Ministry of

    21 Justice. And we also had something for medical

    22 checkups, because the envelopes were stamped "Ministry

    23 of Justice."

    24 Q. When you went over to Kaonik, I think that's

    25 a military prison, how did you know it was a military

  57. 1 prison? What made you believe that to be so?

    2 A. I knew that because I saw that most of the

    3 people who worked there were military policemen. There

    4 were no civilians, because I wouldn't be then

    5 transferred there. I would wear another uniform. I

    6 wouldn't bear the insignia of military police.

    7 Q. Now, you said that after about the 25th of

    8 January, 1993, because of the conflict, you couldn't

    9 get back to your home town near Zenica, so you

    10 continued staying -- or you stayed on in Kaonik. Where

    11 did you stay? Where were your accommodations in

    12 Kaonik?

    13 A. I slept in the same room in which we worked,

    14 and the others who were from Busovaca went home. I had

    15 an office, and there was a sofa, it was near the table,

    16 and we could use it to sit on. And in the evening, I

    17 used it as a sofa bed.

    18 Q. This was in the cell block, was it, part of

    19 the cell block?

    20 A. No, no, no. Yes, in the same building, but

    21 the cells block was separate. There was a steel door,

    22 and this was before the cells.

    23 Q. This is what I meant. It wasn't a cell, but

    24 it was in the same block. I think that

    25 Mr. Aleksovski's office was close to that guards'

  58. 1 quarters as well, wasn't it, across the hall or

    2 something like that?

    3 A. At that time, it was the same office. After

    4 he arrived, when he arrived there, we used it -- we

    5 worked there, and we used it to sleep as well for

    6 sometime until the office was then transferred to the

    7 lower part at the entrance, actually. At Kaonik,

    8 there's a facility where the warden use -- which the

    9 warden uses as his office.

    10 Q. Yes. And that happened much later, I think,

    11 that the warden moved to the facility at the entrance?

    12 A. No, no. The warden, when he arrived at the

    13 facility, he used the office at the entrance.

    14 Q. I see. What about the office in the cell

    15 block, did Mr. Aleksovski use that office along with

    16 you guards as well from time to time?

    17 A. Well, yes, he would climb up there and he

    18 would stay in the same room.

    19 Q. Now, you spoke of the civilians being brought

    20 to the camp or the facility when the conflict broke

    21 out. Who determined where they were to be

    22 accommodated? I take it things were a bit cramped at

    23 the time when all these people arrived on your

    24 doorstep. Who made the decisions about where people

    25 would be accommodated?

  59. 1 A. Well, we organised ourselves, and these were

    2 the guards who did that, because people had to be

    3 accommodated somewhere. When there was enough room, we

    4 put them in the prison building. When there was no

    5 more room, we had to use the hangar.

    6 Q. I think you said that you were somewhat taken

    7 by surprise when all these people came. That's your

    8 evidence, isn't it?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you have a meeting with Mr. Aleksovski

    11 and the other guards to determine what you were going

    12 to do with this problem that had presented itself to

    13 you?

    14 A. At that time, Mr. Aleksovski was not there.

    15 It was just military police.

    16 Q. Well, later on when Mr. Aleksovski came, did

    17 you have meetings with him about the situation there

    18 and the placement and movement of prisoners?

    19 A. When he came, well, there were no people,

    20 detainees, at the upper hangar. There was nobody at

    21 the upper hangar.

    22 Q. You're quite sure of that?

    23 A. To my knowledge, yes.

    24 Q. Well, did you have meetings with

    25 Mr. Aleksovski from time to time as the warden meeting

  60. 1 with the guards?

    2 A. Yes, with Mr. Aleksovski because I knew him

    3 from Zenica. We stayed at a hotel in Vitez for

    4 sometime, so we had quite a good relationship, because

    5 I knew him from the Zenica prison. So when he came, we

    6 stayed together.

    7 Q. What was his procedure for communicating his

    8 orders and so forth to the guards? Would he put it on

    9 a notice board or would he have meetings or both?

    10 A. For the most part, he put it on a notice

    11 board. If there was something for us, he put it on a

    12 notice board.

    13 Q. Where was this notice board located? That

    14 was in the guards' area, was it?

    15 A. It was in a corridor at the entrance to the

    16 building.

    17 Q. Did you ever receive things, letters,

    18 memorandums, or did he communicate with you that way at

    19 all, that you can remember?

    20 A. With me, there was no written

    21 communications. I don't remember.

    22 Q. Do you remember him sending written

    23 communications to other guards at any stage on any

    24 matter, on any sort of matter?

    25 A. I don't remember.

  61. 1 Q. What about drawing up the shift roster? Did

    2 Mr. Aleksovski draw up the shift roster and pin that on

    3 the notice board?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Who was responsible for doing that?

    6 A. That was my responsibility.

    7 Q. And you would confer with him, I take it, and

    8 let him know what you decided about who would be on

    9 duty?

    10 A. Since I was a military police, he had nothing

    11 to do with that. It was our job to secure the prison.

    12 And this is in the jurisdiction of military courts, and

    13 this is what we did. And as for the other ...

    14 Q. But Mr. Aleksovski was responsible for people

    15 certainly that would have been put there by the

    16 military court, wasn't he?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. So if he wanted to move one of those

    19 prisoners from one place to another or, indeed, even to

    20 release him, he would have to give you an instruction

    21 about that, I take it?

    22 A. Yes. If there was a need for a transfer,

    23 this is what we did. If we were told that somebody

    24 should be moved from number 5 to number 4, it was

    25 logical that we should do that.

  62. 1 Q. Now, I think that we have also heard evidence

    2 that the military judge who was responsible for putting

    3 people there was also concerned to see about things

    4 like hygiene, food and treatment and so forth. No

    5 doubt if there was any matters of that nature that had

    6 been passed on to Mr. Aleksovski, he would talk to you

    7 about it, would he, in your position there?

    8 A. I don't remember.

    9 Q. Now, with respect to matters of medical

    10 attention and hygiene and that, some of the prisoners

    11 would speak to Mr. Aleksovski directly about those

    12 issues, would they?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I think, on some occasions, he himself took

    15 civilian detainees into Busovaca for medical attention?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. On other occasions, he would request some of

    18 the guards to do that or a guard to do that, I take it?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Now, when a prisoner had sought medical

    21 attention, they would speak to the guards first or to

    22 Mr. Aleksovski, or was there no set procedure?

    23 A. We had a book in which every day, since 7.00

    24 a.m. when we started work until breakfast, where people

    25 all had to write if they want to see a doctor. And

  63. 1 they would be taken to see a doctor during the day.

    2 Because we had a car, we had a court, and when the car

    3 was there, when we didn't have to go to court, we would

    4 take them to go see the doctor.

    5 Q. Now, Mr. Aleksovski used to drive this car?

    6 A. Yes, quite frequently.

    7 Q. Now, are you saying, is it your evidence that

    8 if guards at the prison had beaten the prisoners, that

    9 Mr. Aleksovski would take disciplinary action against

    10 them?

    11 A. There were no such cases in the prison. And

    12 as for military police, Aleksovski had nothing to do

    13 with us.

    14 Q. So Mr. Aleksovski at no stage did anything in

    15 relation to beatings of prisoners that you're aware of

    16 in terms of disciplining them or reporting them or

    17 taking action?

    18 A. There were no beatings from the military

    19 police, or if something had to be done, Mr. Aleksovski,

    20 I guess he could speak to the commander of the military

    21 police, but not to us.

    22 Q. Now, you did mention, of course, that he

    23 reported the HVO coming into the prison. How did you

    24 know that? How do you know he reported the HVO coming

    25 into the prison and beating prisoners?

  64. 1 A. Because there were cases when he would be

    2 there and they would be there, and it is logical that

    3 they would talk about something.

    4 Q. How do you know that he did it? How do you

    5 know that he actually took the step of reporting these

    6 HVO beating the prisoners?

    7 A. I know because there's a paper. I know that

    8 he reported and that measures were taken against those

    9 people, because the people who -- because there were

    10 some threats like, "Why would he report that? Why

    11 should he do that?" I mean, what do I know?

    12 Q. Who threatened who?

    13 A. Well, those who would intrude the prison in

    14 some cases. And when they threatened Mr. Aleksovski,

    15 and they were threatening him and it was a time of war,

    16 and everybody was carrying weapons, and, you know,

    17 anything could happen.

    18 Q. Now, did the guards of the prison have access

    19 to weapons?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Wouldn't they be employed against the HVO who

    22 were coming into the prison?

    23 A. Well, taking that the prison was a building,

    24 there was no gate, for instance, like in Zenica prison,

    25 so that you can see who was coming and from where and

  65. 1 what his intentions are. Because the arms were stacked

    2 there on the shelf, and when somebody arrives with a

    3 gun, three or four of them, what can you do? Then we

    4 have to unlock the place where the arms were kept.

    5 Q. But you could have locked the prison,

    6 couldn't you, if you wanted to? It wasn't locked, you

    7 said, just the bolt slipped across, but you could have

    8 locked it if you wanted to?

    9 A. The door was locked. From the inside, there

    10 was a bolt, and this door was locked. And when

    11 somebody wants to get out, they would knock. So when

    12 somebody was coming at the door, we wouldn't know what

    13 was the reason, what were they wanting.

    14 Q. But if you wanted to keep the HVO out, you

    15 could have locked the door from the inside?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So why didn't you do that?

    18 A. The door, even if they were, they could

    19 simply -- they were the guards. If somebody wants to

    20 do something, there was a window where the guards were

    21 sitting, a window, just a glass, a simple glass was

    22 there, and if they wanted to do, they would just knock

    23 on the glass, and they could see you, you could see

    24 them.

    25 Q. They could have, but they didn't break in at

  66. 1 any stage, these HVO soldiers; they'd just come in,

    2 wouldn't they?

    3 A. Yes, but who would know that they -- that we

    4 would know that they would be intruding.

    5 Q. Well, I mean, if you had someone from the

    6 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina come up to the camp and

    7 decide to come in, you would have stopped them from

    8 coming in at the time?

    9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Niemann, the

    10 interpreters are asking you to speak into the

    11 microphone. They cannot hear you.

    12 A. Because they would have to cross the line

    13 first before coming there.

    14 Q. The point of what I'm trying to put to you is

    15 that if you wanted to stop people from coming in, you

    16 certainly could have stopped them, and I give to you an

    17 instance that, for example, if a soldier from the army

    18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina tried to gain access to the

    19 Kaonik facility, you would have stopped them?

    20 A. Let me tell you the following: It never

    21 happened to me, to me personally. It did happen to

    22 people who were from Busovaca, and the people who

    23 intruded in the prison were also from Busovaca, because

    24 he would come down there, in the lower part, the

    25 military police, and they knew each other from

  67. 1 childhood, and he would simply open the door then.

    2 These people never worked in such institutions before,

    3 and they had no -- you know.

    4 Q. You spoke of the fact that Mr. Aleksovski

    5 would allow prisoners to go -- civilians, detainees, to

    6 go home when the doctors had suggested that this was

    7 the best treatment for them. Is that your evidence?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. I take it that Mr. Aleksovski -- it's your

    10 evidence that Mr. Aleksovski would also decide on

    11 whether or not they should receive special medical care

    12 as was ordered by the doctors in relation to the

    13 civilian detainees?

    14 A. I don't understand.

    15 Q. Well, if they were to receive medicines or

    16 special food or anything of that nature, Mr. Aleksovski

    17 would -- is it your evidence that he would provide for

    18 that?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And Mr. Aleksovski would also decide on

    21 whether or not these civilian detainees could be

    22 exchanged?

    23 A. I don't know. What do you mean by

    24 "exchanged"?

    25 Q. Well, you knew that prisoners were exchanged,

  68. 1 didn't you, and that they went to Zenica?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Mr. Aleksovski was responsible for that,

    4 wasn't he?

    5 A. Zlatko Aleksovski didn't do that on his own

    6 initiative, off his own bat. I mean, there was

    7 somebody else with whom to do the exchange.

    8 Q. That was the International Committee of the

    9 Red Cross representatives that you're talking about, is

    10 it?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Now, you mentioned these civilian detainees.

    13 I think you said one group came at the end of January

    14 and stayed there for some weeks. That's your evidence,

    15 isn't it?

    16 A. Towards the end of January.

    17 Q. Yes, they came at the end of January, and

    18 they stayed up until when? May? April? How long did

    19 they stay there for? When were they exchanged?

    20 A. No, it did not last more than seven or eight

    21 days, ten perhaps at the most. I don't remember the

    22 date. But ten days on the outside, a week to ten days.

    23 Q. But not all of the civilian detainees were

    24 exchanged, were they? There were some that were left

    25 behind in the facility.

  69. 1 A. I believe they all left.

    2 Q. If I said to you that there's been evidence

    3 before the court that not all of them left, you

    4 wouldn't disagree with that, I take it?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. What was your position? You were a shift

    7 commander, were you?

    8 A. I was a military policeman. But because I

    9 did this and I saw people did not know, then I mostly

    10 did those shifts, and I met those people, I knew

    11 people, and what could happen and what needed to be

    12 done and so ...

    13 Q. So you were responsible for drawing up the

    14 roster; I think that's what you said a moment ago.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. In order to do that, you needed to know when

    17 people would come and people would be available?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Now, if somebody needed to take leave or be

    20 away because of illness or anything like that, would

    21 they come to you or would they go to Mr. Aleksovski to

    22 seek permission to be absent?

    23 A. To me. To me, but there were -- but there

    24 were quite a number of such instances because some

    25 people lived somewhere, and suddenly there would be an

  70. 1 attack of the frontline or he couldn't turn up, he

    2 could not come, and there were some people who lived

    3 right next to the frontline and it was far, and that he

    4 simply goes to the frontline and simply doesn't turn up

    5 for work because that's where his family is and where

    6 everybody is, and I go to the frontline -- I go to the

    7 frontline so that it isn't broken through, and that's

    8 that.

    9 Q. Now, when you were in the Kaonik facility

    10 working as a guard there, you would have worked on

    11 shift yourself, I take it?

    12 A. Well, I didn't exactly work in shifts, but

    13 since I slept there, while I was there, I stayed there

    14 for a while, and afterwards ...

    15 Q. What happened afterwards?

    16 A. And afterwards, when Mr. Aleksovski came,

    17 then we worked until 2.00 or 3.00 or 5.00 and then we

    18 went to sleep in Vitez Hotel.

    19 Q. So you and Mr. Aleksovski were actually

    20 together in the Vitez Hotel?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Now, at those times when you weren't at the

    23 camp, you were at the Vitez Hotel, you couldn't vouch

    24 for what was happening to the prisoners in the camp?

    25 A. Well, not really. There was a man who was

  71. 1 the head of the shift who is responsible, who had a

    2 book, and then reported every morning -- every morning

    3 when I would come for work, he would report what has

    4 happened, if there were any new arrivals, if anybody

    5 had been released, so he had a book.

    6 Q. If somebody had been beaten, a prisoner had

    7 been beaten during the course of the night when he was

    8 on duty, unless he reported it to you the next morning,

    9 you wouldn't know whether or not the prisoners were

    10 beaten or not?

    11 A. Every morning, when I came to work, I would

    12 do a round of all cells, every morning, and I would

    13 talk to people, "What has been going on?" "How are

    14 you?" "Did you sleep well?" Things like that. And I

    15 think -- I believe that anyone would have complained to

    16 me if there had been any problem: This so and so has

    17 done this and that. I mean, if anything like that had

    18 happened.

    19 Q. Now, I think you went to the front when the

    20 second stage of fighting broke out in April of 1993.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. After that, when you went to the front in

    23 April, you would have had no further connection with

    24 the Kaonik prison?

    25 A. Correct.

  72. 1 Q. So whatever happened after April, the

    2 conflict broke out in April, you're not able to testify

    3 about that, at Kaonik?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Now, you spoke of the fact that when the

    6 civilian prisoners were brought to the camp, you took

    7 down their details on a sheet of paper.

    8 A. There was a notebook.

    9 Q. And you removed from them knives and things

    10 of that nature which they may have had on their

    11 possession?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Now, this list of prisoners was given to the

    14 warden, wasn't it?

    15 A. At that time, the list was submitted to

    16 Blazenka, who kept the record of all the imprisoned,

    17 detained, and the like.

    18 Q. Who was Blazenka?

    19 A. Yes. She was a military policeman too, like

    20 the rest of us.

    21 Q. Where was she located?

    22 A. She was located in the same room, in the same

    23 office where I was.

    24 Q. She was in charge of secretarial duties,

    25 wasn't she?

  73. 1 A. Yes. For the records, yes.

    2 Q. And she used to work as Mr. Aleksovski's

    3 secretary?

    4 A. After a while, when we came under the

    5 Justice, yes, but while we were with the military

    6 police, worked with the military police.

    7 Q. Now, when these civilian prisoners had their

    8 names taken and their knives and so forth removed from

    9 them, you then placed them either in the cells or in

    10 the hangar, depending on the available space?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Those cells were locked from the outside, and

    13 so was the hangar, wasn't it?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. If prisoners wanted to go to the toilet or,

    16 for some other reason, leave either the hangar or the

    17 cells, they had to draw the attention of the guards to

    18 that?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And a guard would have been posted outside of

    21 the hangar and a guard would have been posted in the

    22 cellblock building as well to attend to the prisoners

    23 if they needed anything during the course of the night?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. The other purpose for having the guard there

  74. 1 was to prevent the prisoners from leaving?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What were these people charged with? What

    4 was their crime?

    5 A. You mean those --

    6 Q. The civilian prisoners who were brought there

    7 in February and April of 1993, what crime had they

    8 committed?

    9 A. Why, there were charges filed against some of

    10 those who were with us, for murder, for -- by the

    11 court, and there were disciplinary -- there were

    12 disciplinary -- those with disciplinary transgressions

    13 who were serving a couple of days only.

    14 Q. I'm not asking you about them. I am talking

    15 about the civilian prisoners, the people that were

    16 rounded up by the HVO police. They were there because

    17 they were Muslim, weren't they?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. They hadn't committed any crime, that you

    20 knew of anyway?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Yes, they had committed a crime, or, no, they

    23 hadn't committed a crime?

    24 A. No, they did not commit a crime.

    25 Q. They were there awaiting their exchange,

  75. 1 weren't they, to move into other areas such as Zenica?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. They weren't there for their own protection,

    4 though, were they? They were there because they were

    5 Muslims and they had been rounded up by the HVO police.

    6 A. Primarily, they came for protection, they

    7 were there for protection, and the second reason is

    8 because the Muslims attacked us from all sides, and so

    9 you have such people right there in the town of

    10 Busovaca or surrounding villages, so we put them in

    11 this hangar for those reasons, because there was fire

    12 on all sides.

    13 Q. Now, when you're in Zenica prison, prior to

    14 coming to Kaonik, did you also put Serb people in

    15 Zenica for their own protection?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Those Serb people that you put in Zenica

    18 prison, were they ultimately exchanged as well, like

    19 the Muslims were?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Now, the pallets that people slept on, they

    22 were pallets, they were packing crates, weren't they,

    23 things you use for moving heavy, I take it, ammunition

    24 around the facility?

    25 A. What were those pallets used for? I wouldn't

  76. 1 know. I know they were made of wood.

    2 Q. They're the sort of things that forklift

    3 trucks come along and put the prongs of the forklift

    4 truck under, don't they, and lift things up?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. There was a plentiful supply of these around

    7 Kaonik because it used to be an ammunition supply

    8 facility?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. These pallets were put into the cells as well

    11 as into the hangar? They had pallets in the cells as

    12 well, did they not?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Well, describe the bedding that was made

    15 available in the cells.

    16 A. In the cells, they slept on the pallets --

    17 no, sorry, not on the pallets, they had made cots or,

    18 rather, half of the cell was divided, and there were

    19 some boards above the floor some six -- sixty

    20 centimetres, and then there were boards and then there

    21 were straw -- I mean, what we call straw beds, but

    22 actually they were sponges, a sponge or some kind of

    23 matter. So whatever there was would be put on this

    24 board or a plank and then one blanket or perhaps two,

    25 it depended, and pallets were up there in the military

  77. 1 hangar.

    2 Q. These beds in the cells, for example, how

    3 many people were they designed to accommodate?

    4 A. Well, I said it. Normally five to six

    5 individuals, under normal circumstances.

    6 Q. So if you put 10 to 15 people in there,

    7 they'd be extensively overcrowded, at least 100 per

    8 cent overcrowded?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. People in those cells had no choice about

    11 whether or not they were located there, did they? That

    12 was a decision that either you or some other guard

    13 would make.

    14 A. Well, you know, they still preferred to be

    15 there because it was warmer than up in the hangar, and

    16 that was the only choice, this or the hangar. As I've

    17 said, they liked better to stay here, even if they

    18 could only stand or sit down, because it was warmer,

    19 because there was a room, the cells were partitioned,

    20 and there were people there. It was January, snowing,

    21 it was very cold, so they preferred to be here than up

    22 there.

    23 Q. It wasn't a case of them saying, "Well, now,

    24 take me around the facility, and I'll pick the best

    25 cell for me to stay in," you just decided, didn't you?

  78. 1 You said, "You go here" and "You go there." It wasn't

    2 up to the prisoners to decide where they were going to

    3 be located?

    4 A. Well, I don't think that there is a case ever

    5 where the prisoner decides where they will be kept and

    6 what they will do. It's not up to prisoners.

    7 Q. So the preference about being warmer and so

    8 forth is not something that they had much influence

    9 over in terms of where they could choose to be?

    10 A. I don't understand.

    11 Q. Now, during the first intake of civilian

    12 detainees in January, how many people in all came to

    13 Kaonik?

    14 A. I wouldn't know the exact number, but I

    15 should say, I don't know, somewhere up to 200 people,

    16 150 or 200, I wouldn't know exactly.

    17 Q. You spoke of the incident where the two

    18 persons were charged as a result of Muslim detainees

    19 being killed on the frontline. Do you remember

    20 mentioning that?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What was the outcome of that case? What

    23 happened at the end of the day to those people?

    24 A. You mean those who were charged with this? I

    25 don't know. What happened to them in the end, I don't

  79. 1 know.

    2 Q. Now, when people were taken out for

    3 trench-digging, it would be either you or

    4 Mr. Aleksovski who would be responsible for determining

    5 who would go?

    6 A. He was not in charge of that, Mr. Aleksovski,

    7 but sometimes we were not there, there were only people

    8 here, for instance, the shift had -- who weren't there

    9 and we were away. Then he had a list, he had the

    10 sequence how people came, so apart from those who were

    11 sick, and he would simply read five, ten men, how many

    12 were needed, and thus they would go.

    13 Q. He also had the authority, did he not, to

    14 decide who wouldn't go, so that if there was someone

    15 who was sick, he, Mr. Aleksovski, would say, "Well, you

    16 don't need to go trench-digging"? He did that, didn't

    17 he?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Now, did you decide from time to time which

    20 of the civilian detainees would be selected to go

    21 trench-digging, you personally decide that?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Why didn't you do that?

    24 A. Why? There was a list, I told you, and you

    25 just followed -- went down the list, except when

  80. 1 somebody said that he was sick, "Can you leave me

    2 behind? I'm really not feeling well. Can I go

    3 tomorrow?" Well, then you just skip him and take the

    4 next one. That, I mean.

    5 Q. You knew he took people's names off that

    6 list, didn't you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And you knew they were going to be taken out

    9 for trench-digging?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And you knew that it was wrong to use

    12 civilian detainees for the purposes of digging trenches

    13 on the frontline?

    14 A. No, I did not know. It was a labour

    15 obligation. There were also Croats, I mean, our

    16 people, who also dug there on that same frontline.

    17 That was a labour obligation.

    18 Q. So it never occurred to you that sending

    19 these civilian prisoners out to the frontline in very

    20 dangerous conditions to dig trenches might offend, for

    21 example, the Geneva Conventions?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. So as far as you're concerned, it was a

    24 perfectly acceptable way to behave?

    25 A. Yes.

  81. 1 Q. Did anyone ever give you a copy of the Geneva

    2 Conventions and tell you that you should study it and

    3 become familiar with its provisions?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Did you ever take it upon yourself to

    6 acquaint yourself with the provisions of the Geneva

    7 Conventions?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Did you ever receive any training at any

    10 time, either when you were in the Zenica prison or in

    11 the Kaonik prison, on the provisions of the Geneva

    12 Conventions?

    13 A. Well, I don't remember.

    14 Q. Again, you spoke of the fact that civilians

    15 were not refused medical care when they wanted it. But

    16 that's only as far as you know. I mean, if there were

    17 prisoners who asked for medical attention and you

    18 weren't on shift, you wouldn't know about that and

    19 couldn't comment on it, could you?

    20 A. I would because there was emergency cases who

    21 would be taken after my working hours; but otherwise,

    22 everything took place in the morning hours, I told you,

    23 from seven o'clock, because in the morning when I had

    24 to put down for the examination, so it was in the

    25 morning, and only exceptionally, if there were some

  82. 1 afternoon cases, then there was usually a car on duty

    2 there. If the car was not there, then they would ask a

    3 doctor to come to the prison in person.

    4 Q. I'm saying that if you weren't on duty and a

    5 guard decided not to record the fact or do anything

    6 about the fact that a prisoner had sought medical

    7 attention, then you couldn't possibly know that, could

    8 you? You can't know about things when you're not

    9 there.

    10 A. Well, naturally, if it was not in the book,

    11 then what? Or unless he told me personally.

    12 Q. Was there a loudspeaker system in the camp?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Were you known by any nicknames or names

    15 other than the name that you've given in court, Anto

    16 Jerkovic? Do you have a nickname?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. What nickname are you known by?

    19 A. Pancho.

    20 Q. Did you know a person called Zarko Petrovic?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. How do you know him?

    23 A. I know him from Busovaca.

    24 Q. Did you know him during the time --

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann.

  83. 1 Mr. Mikulicic?

    2 MR. MIKULICIC: With all due respect to my

    3 learned friend, I think these questions go beyond the

    4 examination-in-chief, and we did not touch upon a

    5 person called Zarko Petrovic in our

    6 examination-in-chief. So in view of your decision

    7 during the former session, so that the

    8 cross-examination could not go beyond the framework,

    9 beyond the boundaries of examination-in-chief, we

    10 therefore object to this line of questioning.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if I may address

    12 that? My understanding of Your Honours' rulings --

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me. We have not

    14 heard the end of the interpretation yet. I believe

    15 there is something that I missed.

    16 Yes, Mr. Niemann? Yes, please? Sorry.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, my understanding

    18 of Your Honours' ruling related to the ambit of the

    19 indictment. It's always been the case, as I understood

    20 it, that cross-examination is at large. Otherwise, the

    21 whole exercise would be pointless. If it couldn't be

    22 at large, for example -- let me suggest to Your Honours

    23 an example.

    24 If a witness came along and told a whole

    25 series of lies, in order to demonstrate those lies, it

  84. 1 may be necessary to embark on other areas which weren't

    2 covered in examination-in-chief in order to demonstrate

    3 that the witness is lying to the court. I'm not

    4 suggesting that's the case with this witness, but I'm

    5 saying that is the reason, the logic, behind the fact

    6 that cross-examination cannot be limited to the

    7 evidence in chief because of that and many other

    8 reasons. I can think of numerous examples.

    9 For example, a witness could be called, and

    10 counsel could specifically limit the witness to that

    11 very limited point of evidence that he wished to

    12 present to the court. But the witness could, perhaps,

    13 discuss another area of great relevance, but not

    14 something that counsel wanted to bring out of that

    15 witness.

    16 It would be absurd to say, "Well, you can't

    17 go beyond the scope of examination-in-chief in

    18 cross-examination," so as to prevent the court hearing

    19 the particular evidence that this witness was able to

    20 attest to. It also could impinge upon questions by

    21 Your Honours because, I mean, it would hardly be fair

    22 to say to the Prosecutor, "Well, you can't

    23 cross-examine about particular areas which are outside

    24 the scope of evidence in chief." Then if Your Honours

    25 wish to ask a question about something outside the

  85. 1 evidence in chief, Your Honours could do it, but the

    2 Prosecution couldn't.

    3 So, Your Honours, it's generally regarded in

    4 those jurisdictions where cross-examination takes

    5 place. In fact, I know of no example of a jurisdiction

    6 where cross-examination occurs that it's limited

    7 strictly to evidence in chief. I know of no example of

    8 that. In fact, it's quite the contrary. In all of

    9 those jurisdictions where cross-examination is a common

    10 feature of the trial, cross-examination is generally

    11 regarded as being at regard.

    12 That doesn't mean to say that one can embark

    13 upon a cross-examination of something totally

    14 irrelevant. The admissibility of the cross-examination

    15 is always constrained by the relevance of the

    16 cross-examination, but it's never, as far as my

    17 experience is concerned, ever restricted to merely the

    18 evidence in chief, as is led by counsel who, for

    19 tactical reasons, may specifically wish to restrict the

    20 evidence in chief.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, I think it is

    22 now time for a break. We shall decide on all this that

    23 you have just said.

    24 JUDGE VOHRAH: Can you, Mr. Niemann,

    25 elaborate on the relevance of your questioning?

  86. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours. I have a

    2 series of questions about persons who witnesses for the

    3 Prosecution have attested were at the camp. And I'm

    4 just exploring -- when I say "at the time camp," I'm

    5 talking of people who either were guards or HVO, that

    6 may be unclear, but they were certainly at the camp.

    7 I'm just asking the witness whether he knows of those

    8 people and in what capacity they performed.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. So we shall now

    10 take a 15-minute break.

    11 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

    12 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

    13 (The accused entered court)

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We shall resume now. The

    15 Chamber reminds you of what we have already ruled under

    16 the circumstances, that the way to Kaonik should not be

    17 too long and repetitive. We have underlined that we

    18 have Mr. Aleksovski here on trial and not anybody

    19 else. We have the indictment, and we have already said

    20 that we need to have an integral, systematic picture if

    21 we are to understand the effects which are included in

    22 the indictment in the charges against Mr. Aleksovski.

    23 Therefore, on the basis of 96(B) and (C) and

    24 89(D), we accept that Mr. Niemann -- that the questions

    25 that Mr. Niemann was asking are admissible because they

  87. 1 are within the boundary in the sense of these two

    2 provisions of our rules. These are, therefore,

    3 questions which do concern Mr. Aleksovski and which the

    4 Chamber needs to know if it is to have an integral and

    5 systematic picture. And this way we are not going

    6 beyond the framework of the examination-in-chief.

    7 Therefore, the Chamber decides that these questions are

    8 admissible.

    9 Mr. Niemann, you may continue.

    10 My colleague tells me that there is an error

    11 in the transcript. We have spoken of the 85(D) and

    12 89(B). So Mr. Mikulicic, you may also ask questions on

    13 this matter. But, Mr. Niemann, you may continue.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.

    15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, I was just asking you before

    16 the adjournment about a person by the name Zarko

    17 Petrovic. Did you know him? I think you said that you

    18 had heard of him. Did you know of him in connection

    19 with the Kaonik facility?

    20 A. I met him down there.

    21 Q. What was his rank?

    22 A. I don't know what his rank was, but I heard

    23 that he worked in the police.

    24 Q. Do you know what his role was in the camp?

    25 A. No.

  88. 1 Q. What about a person by the name Miro Maric;

    2 have you heard of that person?

    3 A. Miro Maric, yes, there was a Miro Maric that

    4 worked with us.

    5 Q. Do you know what his rank was?

    6 A. He had no rank.

    7 Q. When you say, "he worked with us," he was a

    8 guard like yourself in the camp, in the facility of

    9 Kaonik, the prison?

    10 A. A military policeman, yes.

    11 Q. Finally, have you heard of a person called

    12 Marko Krilic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And you know of him because of his

    15 involvement with Kaonik?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. He was the deputy director of the Kaonik

    18 facility, wasn't he?

    19 A. Marko Krilic?

    20 Q. Yes.

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Well, can you tell me what function he

    23 performed?

    24 A. A military policeman.

    25 Q. Do you know what rank he had?

  89. 1 A. No, he had no rank.

    2 Q. And Marko Krilic was similar to yourself, a

    3 guard in the Kaonik facility?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Now, you mentioned when we were discussing

    6 the lady Blazenka that she became Mr. Aleksovski's

    7 secretary when you all came under the jurisdiction of

    8 the Ministry of Justice. That was when Mr. Aleksovski

    9 arrived, was it?

    10 A. When it fell under the jurisdiction, yes,

    11 until somebody else arrived. And then Blazenka was in

    12 charge of the books and things like that.

    13 Q. I see. So she became Mr. Aleksovski's

    14 secretary when you and her and others came under the

    15 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    18 Honour.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    20 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I

    21 just have a few questions in order to clarify certain

    22 answers.

    23 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    24 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, is the person who is named

    25 Zarko Petrovic which was mentioned by my distinguished

  90. 1 colleague, the Prosecutor, was he employed as a guard

    2 at Kaonik?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Was Zarko Petrovic at Kaonik in any other

    5 capacity?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, we heard here also about the

    8 release of civilians who were taken to Kaonik in two

    9 instances in February and April. Mr. Jerkovic, do you

    10 remember whether at times they were released from

    11 Kaonik, somebody from the international organisations

    12 was present like the Red Cross and similar

    13 organisations?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jerkovic, whether these persons,

    16 when they were released from Kaonik, when they were

    17 asked in front of these international representatives,

    18 where did they want to go?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jerkovic, again, do you know

    21 whether some of the persons who were released, to a

    22 greater or a lesser extent, were going back to their

    23 homes, Busovaca and the surrounding villages?

    24 A. I don't know exactly. I know that most of

    25 them, the majority, I think that most of them went to

  91. 1 Zenica. I don't know exactly.

    2 MR. MIKULICIC: There are no further

    3 questions for the Defence, Your Honour.

    4 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: I have only one

    5 question.

    6 Do you know the name of the commander of the

    7 military unit used to take the prisoners to trench

    8 digging?

    9 A. No.

    10 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: No further questions.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Jerkovic, I should also

    12 like to ask you a few questions.

    13 If I understood you properly, you said that

    14 someone asked that a number of persons be taken to dig

    15 trenches; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Who was it who asked for a

    18 number of these persons?

    19 A. Well, they would come from the frontline.

    20 They would go to the commander and they would say how

    21 many men they needed and we would give them.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But did you know which was

    23 their rank or the organisation or the person or

    24 anything?

    25 A. Well, they would come -- they would come by

  92. 1 car, and there would be a couple of them from the HVO

    2 army, and they would take five or ten men, as many as

    3 they needed for digging, and they would go.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So those were HVO soldiers?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And another question: You

    7 also said that there was a list of persons who dug

    8 trenches. Who compiled those lists?

    9 A. There was a list of all people who came here,

    10 and we went down that list, except that we excluded

    11 people of advanced age and those who were sick or

    12 something.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, but who compiled the

    14 list? Do you know who made the list? Was it you who

    15 made that list?

    16 A. Nobody made those lists. I was there, and if

    17 they told me they needed five men or ten men, so I

    18 would read them out if I was there or the shift leader

    19 or whoever there was would read them out, and then give

    20 as many as were needed.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Finally, let me go back.

    22 Did you get that list? But did you know who made those

    23 lists, who compiled those lists? Who decided what

    24 names would be put on the list?

    25 A. Well, when people came, when they came, I

  93. 1 would take down their names. I would search them to

    2 take off -- to remove the list of things. That list

    3 was with me on the desk, on Blazenka's desk. And when

    4 they would come, we would take out this list and say,

    5 "Well, we've come down to here," and you call them

    6 out. And if this one was sick or something, then you

    7 skip him and take the next one. And if they come the

    8 next day, then we would do the same thing. And we

    9 would reach the number, I don't know, 10 or 15, and

    10 then we would proceed down the list.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me for insisting on

    12 this matter, but those were HVO soldiers? Were they

    13 guards or you or Mr. Aleksovski who made the list?

    14 A. I'm saying it again. I would take this list

    15 and take them -- those men, I would make a list of ten

    16 men, for instance. A person would make a list of ten

    17 men, and we would -- some of those people and send them

    18 to work. And the next day, it would be the shift

    19 leader, whoever happened to be there.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We already know that you

    21 have answered a question from the Prosecution regarding

    22 your education, your knowledge, your familiarity with

    23 the Geneva Conventions. But have you received any

    24 instruction? Have you been instructed? Have you gone

    25 through any training for a guard?

  94. 1 A. Yes.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Where did you receive the

    3 training?

    4 A. In Sarajevo.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: It was under the Ministry

    6 of Justice or outside it?

    7 A. Yes, yes, it was under the Ministry of

    8 Justice.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Right. We have no further

    10 questions, Mr. Jerkovic, to ask you. Thank you for

    11 coming here and we wish you a pleasant return home.

    12 Thank you very much.

    13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    14 (The witness withdrew)

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    16 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the Defence

    17 would like to call there next witness. It is Mr. Darko

    18 Kristo. But since it is already 1.00 p.m., the Defence

    19 will probably not be able to finish the questioning

    20 until the end of the working hours of the Court, so we

    21 will continue tomorrow, or perhaps it would be better

    22 not to start even today and continue tomorrow with the

    23 questioning of this witness. It's up to you to

    24 decide.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, what do you

  95. 1 think?

    2 MR. NIEMANN: It's a matter for Your

    3 Honours. Our position on this is whatever is most

    4 convenient to the Court.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe it is still very

    6 important not to make breaks, not to make unnecessary

    7 interruptions. Perhaps it would be better to begin

    8 tomorrow and then make the best use of the time

    9 tomorrow, so that we shall resume tomorrow with your

    10 next witness.

    11 So until tomorrow at 9.00.

    12 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at

    13 12.49 p.m. to be reconvened on Tuesday,

    14 the 30th day of June, 1998 at 9.00 a.m.