1 Tuesday, 30 June 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The witness entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and
6 gentlemen. We are back again to continue our case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The case is IT-95-14/1-T,
8 Tribunal versus Zlatko Aleksovski.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. Will
10 the Prosecution make their appearances.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, my name is
12 Niemann, and I appear with my colleague, Mr. Meddegoda,
13 for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,
15 Mr. Niemann. And for the defence, Mr. Mikulicic,
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
18 I am Goran Mikulicic and I appear with my colleague
19 Mr. Joka for the Defence.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning to the
21 interpreters and our sound engineers, Mr. Mikulicic,
22 you have called another witness for today, haven't
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honours. The
25 Defence will invite witness Mr. Darko Kristo, who is
1 sitting here now, and we will start with questioning of
2 witnesses for the Defence.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Mr. Kristo.
4 Will you please stand up? You will now read the solemn
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated, and you
10 will now answer the questions which Mr. Mikulicic will
11 ask you.
12 Mr. Mikulicic, you may proceed.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 WITNESS: DARKO KRISTO
15 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
16 Q. Mr. Kristo, my name is Mikulicic, and I
17 represent the accused Zlatko Aleksovski. On behalf of
18 the Defence, I will pose you the questions and I appeal
19 for you to answer them to the best of your memory. I
20 also kindly ask you to speak slowly so that we can
21 allow the interpreters to translate what you will be
23 Mr. Kristo, tell us when and where were you
25 A. On the 3rd of August, 1965, in Busovaca.
1 Q. Where did you go to school?
2 A. In Zenica, at the elementary school in
3 Busovaca and secondary school in Zenica.
4 Q. Mr. Kristo, what kind of secondary school did
5 you attend in Zenica?
6 A. A school for catering personnel.
7 Q. Do you remember, when did you complete
9 A. Yes. In 1983.
10 Q. Did you, after completing secondary school,
11 find a job, or did you continue your schooling? What
12 did you do after graduation?
13 A. I immediately found a job.
14 Q. Do you remember where was that?
15 A. In a company called Tisa Tourist, a catering
16 company in Busovaca.
17 Q. So you found a job in the catering industry?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Kristo, in what capacity did you work
21 A. As a waiter.
22 Q. Until when did you work as a waiter in Tisa
24 A. Until 1991, the end of 1991.
25 Q. When did you stop working? You stopped
1 working then?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell us why.
4 A. Because I volunteered for the HVO.
5 Q. So it was in 1991, the end of that year, when
6 a war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then you volunteered for the HVO; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell us, Mr. Kristo, when you joined HVO, did
12 you take part in some armed actions or did you work
13 somewhere else?
14 A. I worked as a cook.
15 Q. Where did you work as a cook in 1991?
16 A. At the Tisa Hotel.
17 Q. But as a military personnel?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Kristo, in which
20 military unit you then served as a cook?
21 A. It was the Nikola Srbinski (phoen) unit.
22 Q. And until when did you serve as a cook at the
23 Tisa Hotel?
24 A. It was just for a short period after which we
25 left for the Draga barracks and then to the Kaonik
2 Q. When did you arrive in Kaonik?
3 A. In 1992, in October 1992.
4 Q. Mr. Kristo, you told us that you grew up and
5 went to school in Busovaca, so I suppose then that you
6 know the area around Busovaca; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know what was the purpose of the
9 Kaonik facility before the war broke out in
11 A. A military police unit was deployed there,
12 and I personally know, as a cook, that we were deployed
13 there because of military police to put the kitchen
14 into operation.
15 Q. You did not understand me, Mr. Kristo, so I
16 will have to repeat the question. Before the war broke
17 out in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1990 and in 1980, what was
18 the purpose of the Kaonik barracks? Who was there?
19 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.
20 Q. Is it then correct that Kaonik was a barracks
21 of the Yugoslav People's Army?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Did you at that time, when the Yugoslav
24 People's Army was at Kaonik, did you have a chance to
25 visit that facility?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So you came there for the first time only
3 after you had joined the HVO and served there as a
4 cook; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So that was in October 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell us, Mr. Kristo, when you arrived in the
9 Kaonik area, where was the kitchen situated?
10 A. At the very entrance to the barracks. The
11 first building some 10 metres away from the gate.
12 Q. Do you remember who was there in that
14 A. Yes. Military police.
15 Q. So the kitchen was situated or located in the
16 first building near the gate where military police were
17 also deployed; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that correct, that it was your duty to
20 prepare food for military police?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know, Mr. Kristo, when or whether,
23 within the Kaonik facility, a district military
24 tribunal was formed; do you know that?
25 A. It was set up but only after the new year or
1 around the new year. I can't remember exactly the
3 Q. Was that in the building in which you were
4 located as a cook or where the military police was
5 located or in another building?
6 A. In another building up there in the barracks.
7 Q. When this district military prison was set up
8 at the end of 1992 and 1993, did you prepare food for
9 the prisoners as well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell us, Mr. Kristo, where did you get the
12 raw materials for cooking?
13 A. From Draga.
14 Q. Can you tell us what Draga is?
15 A. It is the barracks where the commanders were
16 located, the regiment commanders.
17 Q. From the barracks, the raw materials were
18 brought to you and you prepared food and meals from
19 those raw materials; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember approximately what kind of
22 food was that?
23 A. Well, just like for any other kitchen. In
24 the beginning, there was everything that we needed
25 until regular supplies were possible, potato, macaroni,
1 meat, lentils, peas, and things like that.
2 Q. Can you describe, Mr. Kristo, what kind of a
3 kitchen was that, what kind of equipment was there in
4 the kitchen?
5 A. Well, it was not a proper kitchen as far as I
6 know what kitchens should be like, but from the Tisa
7 Hotel, we took some of the inventory and then we made a
8 kitchen there for military police in order to prepare
9 food, like stoves, utensils, and similar things.
10 Q. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Kristo,
11 when you arrived there in the building where the
12 military police were also located, there was not a
13 kitchen before in that building, but you had set it up;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you had to take care to bring the
17 necessary equipment for the kitchen in order to prepare
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that you had a stove on which you
21 cooked food. What kind of a stove was that?
22 A. Electricity stove.
23 Q. How many plates were there; do you remember?
24 A. Four.
25 Q. So you prepared food on those four plates?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was that sufficient capacity-wise to prepare
3 food for military police, I mean the period before
4 armed conflicts broke out in Busovaca?
5 A. Yes, as far as military police is concerned,
6 yes, it was sufficient.
7 Q. How many meals a day did you prepare?
8 A. Well, I can't remember now. It was a long
9 time ago. I can't remember.
10 Q. I'm asking you because we want to hear
11 whether you prepared just lunch or breakfast and lunch
12 and maybe dinner. Do you remember that?
13 A. We prepared breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and
14 sometimes we served canned food for breakfast,
15 like pate, like fish, or ...
16 Q. Is that true that you had prepared three
17 meals out of which sometimes not all of them were
18 cooked meals and breakfast was canned food?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Kristo, do you remember when armed
21 conflicts broke out in the Busovaca territory area
22 between Muslims and Croats?
23 A. I think it was in January. I can't remember
24 the exact date.
25 Q. So in that period, you were working in the
1 kitchen; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you, while working in the kitchen, feel
4 that there was an increased need for food or the
5 quantity of food that you had to prepare? Did you,
6 after armed conflicts broke out in Busovaca, did you
7 have to prepare more food than before?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us why?
10 A. Because the district prison was set up there.
11 Q. So simply there were more people for whom you
12 had to prepare food?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know, Mr. Kristo, that at the end of
15 January 1993 in the Kaonik facility that a group of
16 civilians was brought from Busovaca and they were
17 temporarily accommodated there; do you know that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you prepare food for those people as
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you have, Mr. Kristo, because of an
23 increased number of people, did you have to bring some
24 more kitchen equipment, or was the equipment there
25 sufficient for that purpose?
1 A. No, it was not sufficient, especially as far
2 as utensils were concerned, so we asked the regiment to
3 bring us a kitchen in which we could prepare food
4 outside. We used an open heat stove outside.
5 Q. And did they bring you this equipment?
6 A. To the best of their potential, the basic
7 equipment that we asked for was there, the trailer was
8 brought, which we used as a kitchen, but other
9 equipment was not sufficient.
10 Q. When you speak about the inventory and
11 utensils, what do you mean?
12 A. Well, I mean like plates and forks and things
13 like that.
14 Q. The small inventory, as you call it, or as
15 far as I remember, you said that you brought it from
16 the Tisa Hotel?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Kristo, you said that a trailer was
19 brought. Can you tell us what kind of a trailer was
20 that? Was that sort of a kitchen mess?
21 A. Yes, yes, it was a kitchen mess with three
22 big cauldrons inside, I don't know how many auxiliary
23 pieces were there, and we used timber and wood.
24 Q. So it is an auxiliary kitchen which the army
25 usually uses when they are in the field; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So it was brought near to where you had been
4 accommodated. Where was it exactly?
5 A. Behind our building, behind our kitchen.
6 Q. Mr. Kristo, did somebody help you in the
7 preparation of the food or did you do it alone?
8 A. I was a cook together with another one, and
9 when the number of people increased, when the Muslim
10 civilians arrived, then we sought help from Zlatko as
11 far as the prisoners up there were concerned, and these
12 were the people from the HVO.
13 Q. So if I understood you correctly, when the
14 number of people was increased for which you had to
15 prepare food, then you asked help or you asked to be
16 given more people in order to prepare more food?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So the people that were given to you as help,
19 they were Croatian soldiers who were disciplined at the
20 district military prison; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Tell us, Mr. Kristo, now we are speaking
23 about the period when the Muslim civilians were brought
24 to Kaonik and when you had to prepare food for them as
25 well, so we are referring to this period. Mr. Kristo,
1 did you, under those conditions, prepare three meals a
2 day or not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So three meals a day?
5 A. Until regular supplies were possible, three
6 meals a day.
7 Q. Tell us, was it sufficient?
8 A. What can I tell you? When supplies were
9 regular, we had enough food for all of us because it
10 was not only the civilians, Muslims, but the army as
11 well, and ourselves.
12 Q. So you prepared food which was also served to
13 the prisoners in the district prison and the Muslims
14 which were brought, the civilians which were brought,
15 and who else?
16 A. Military police and the guards, of course,
17 and we also prepared food for outside the barracks, for
18 the frontline, and for some other outlets in the city,
19 in the town.
20 Q. Is it then correct, Mr. Kristo, that at the
21 place where you prepared food, from there it was
22 distributed to the prison, to the fighters who were on
23 the defence lines, and to some facilities in the town,
24 and that it was the same food?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that correct then, that the guards and
2 prisoners had the same food?
3 A. The same. Everybody ate the same food
4 because there was no possibility to prepare different
5 types of food and kinds of food because there were too
6 many people for the capacity of our kitchen.
7 Q. I see. So the food was the same, and the
8 meals, quantity-wise, were the same, or did you have
9 different quantities of food or meals for guards and
10 for prisoners or ...
11 A. It was the same for all.
12 Q. Tell us, Mr. Kristo, in the situation where
13 supplies were more or less regular, did the prisoners
14 have the possibility to ask for more helpings if it was
16 A. Yes, yes, in all circumstances, yes.
17 Q. Mr. Kristo, do you remember that, in the
18 kitchen or as a consequence of the intake of food that
19 you had prepared, that some people would have some
20 stomach problems, that people would feel sick because
21 of that?
22 A. Nothing like that had happened.
23 Q. Mr. Kristo, in which way was the food from
24 the kitchen where it was prepared taken to the prison
25 where the prisoners were located?
1 A. The Muslims, accompanied by guards, would
2 come to the kitchen and then take up the food to the
4 Q. Did you have any opportunity to go to that
5 prison or did you stay in the lower building all the
7 A. Because of my job, I had to remain down there
8 all the time, and I just -- I think I might have gone
9 there, up once or twice, but under extraordinary
11 Q. So it was under extraordinary circumstances.
12 It was not a regular occurrence?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Kristo, you also said that the prisoners
15 or the Muslim civilians who were brought to Kaonik,
16 that they would come to take the food. Then you would
17 have had the opportunity to see them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How did they look to you? Were they
20 underfed, were they in a terrible state as far as
21 hygiene was concerned?
22 A. To me, normally. I didn't see anything
24 Q. Mr. Kristo, I'm aware of the fact that you
25 stayed in the lower building and that you were
1 preoccupied with your job, but let me ask you,
2 nevertheless, the following: Do you know perhaps when
3 the Muslim civilians from the Busovaca area were
4 brought to Kaonik? Do you remember, when was that?
5 A. Well, it might have been in January. I can't
6 remember the exact date. At the end of January.
7 Q. Maybe the beginning of February.
8 A. I'm not sure.
9 Q. Well, it has been six years since then and
10 it's only normal.
11 Do you remember then, Mr. Kristo, how long
12 they stayed in Kaonik? How long did you have to
13 prepare more food? Do you remember how long was that?
14 A. I can't remember exactly the date, it was
15 such a long time ago. Well, perhaps until Easter time
16 when the exchange took place. I can't remember on
17 which date the Easter holidays were at the time.
18 Q. Mr. Kristo, you said that you belonged to the
19 regiment so you were not a member of the military
20 police in whose building you actually stayed.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But do you know what unit did the guards at
23 the district prison belong to? Did they belong to your
24 regiment or were they members of the military police;
25 do you know that?
1 A. Military police.
2 Q. Did you meet Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski at that
3 time when you were at Kaonik?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you meet him once or several times?
6 A. Several times.
7 Q. Would you recognise him if you saw him today?
8 A. Yes, of course. I see him over there.
9 MR. MIKULICIC: Please, may I state for the
10 record that the witness is pointing at the accused,
11 Zlatko Aleksovski.
12 Q. Mr. Kristo, do you remember when it was the
13 first time you saw Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski, under what
14 circumstances? I'm not asking you about the date?
15 A. Well, it could have been towards the end of
16 January, perhaps in the beginning of February.
17 Q. Do you remember perhaps what Mr. Zlatko
18 Aleksovski wore at the time? How was he dressed?
19 Military or civilian?
20 A. Well, anyhow, I mean, sometimes he wore
21 civilian clothes, sometimes a uniform, sometimes it was
22 a combination of civilian trousers and an army upper
24 Q. Mr. Kristo, how were you dressed? Were you
25 in civilian clothes or were you in a uniform? I
1 understand, of course, that when you cooked, you
2 wouldn't be wearing it, but will you tell me?
3 A. I wore jeans, and, of course, I had a white
5 Q. The cook's --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the guards in Kaonik, were they dressed?
8 A. They wore uniforms.
9 Q. Did they have any insignia? Did they have
10 patches? Did they have MP indicated on their sleeves
11 or something, the guards?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You do not remember or what?
14 A. I do not remember.
15 Q. Mr. Kristo, do you remember Mr. Zlatko
16 Aleksovski having any insignia on those occasions when
17 he had a uniform on?
18 A. No, no, none.
19 Q. He did not have any insignia. And rank, what
20 about rank indication?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Mr. Kristo, do you remember perhaps if you
23 provided adequate quantities of tea for people
24 accommodated in the prison for their daily
25 consumption? Did you issue some excessive quantities
1 of tea or normal?
2 A. No, just normal with breakfast, one usually
3 got either tea or coffee with milk.
4 Q. I see. And tea and coffee brought along with
5 other food from the Draga barracks or did you have
6 another source of supply?
7 A. From the Draga barracks.
8 Q. A little while ago, you mentioned that at a
9 certain point in time, it was very difficult to get
10 supplies. What does that mean? What does it mean?
11 Why were the supplies any more difficult?
12 A. Well, probably because we were surrounded and
13 there was not enough food.
14 Q. I guess the lines of communication were cut
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And how did you manage then?
18 A. Well, I think for a certain period of time, I
19 think for about a month, we kept it to two meals a day,
20 that is, because there was a shortage of food, so we
21 simply eliminated one meal a day.
22 Q. Did it apply to all or only to some?
23 A. To all.
24 Q. And how did you get meat or was there some
25 livestock around, were there some cattle around or
2 A. Yes, if there was no meat at the regiment --
3 I mean, if there was not fresh meat, if there was not
4 fresh meat, there was some tinned meal and the like,
5 some goulash tins and things.
6 Q. Did it ever happened that the local
7 population brought their live stock to be slaughtered
8 for the needs of the canteen?
9 A. I did not understand the question.
10 Q. Do you remember seeing that the soldiers
11 brought their livestock from their own farms to provide
12 meat for the kitchen; did these things happen?
13 A. Yes, they did.
14 Q. Mr. Kristo, you repeatedly mentioned --
15 repeated that food was brought over from the Draga
16 barracks. Does it mean that their driver brought it?
17 A. Yes. The driver from Draga brought the food
18 and he also distributed that food that we cooked there,
19 that we prepared, took it to the frontline and to the
20 outposts in the town.
21 Q. Do you know perhaps which were those outposts
22 in the town?
23 A. The post office, the medical centre, and a
24 couple of policemen at some checkpoints, and I guess
25 there was some other places but I don't remember.
1 Q. Do you know, Mr. Kristo, if the prisoners
2 could prepare the tea for themselves in the -- on the
3 premises of the prison or perhaps in the canteen?
4 A. I do not know because I was in a different
5 part of the building.
6 Q. Mr. Kristo, will you please try to jog your
7 memory and remember under what circumstances did you
8 have contact with Mr. Aleksovski, what were these
9 contacts about?
10 A. Well, man to man. There was no business
11 talks because there was no need to.
12 Q. So if I understood you properly, those were
13 the common kind of contacts, not any kind of military
14 contacts or official contacts?
15 A. No, they were not.
16 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Aleksovski -- if
17 Mr. Aleksovski was a member of the military police in
18 that building in which you were?
19 A. I don't think so.
20 Q. Do you know how Mr. Aleksovski treated the
21 prisoners or those interned Muslim civilians who were
22 accommodated there; do you know that?
23 A. I never went upstairs, and I think that
24 Zlatko always treated everyone correctly.
25 Q. But you have no personal knowledge of that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Mr. Kristo, you mentioned that you were
3 surrounded and that the lines of communication were cut
4 off and that supplies were rendered very difficult; is
5 that true?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. So at that time what was the security
8 situation at Kaonik itself? Did it ever happen that
9 Kaonik would be fired at?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember any of such incidents when
12 Kaonik was exposed to fire? Do you remember something
14 A. I remember Ivica Bazaric (phoen), a Domobran
15 who was wounded there. I don't remember the date,
16 because I was the one who gave the first aid, who
17 bandaged him.
18 Q. You mentioned Ivica Bazaric, a Domobran.
19 What was he doing in Kaonik?
20 A. I think he was there at the entrance.
21 Q. As a visitor or a guard?
22 A. Guard.
23 Q. Did I understand you properly? He was a
24 guard at the entrance door?
25 A. Yes, of the prison.
1 Q. So that door is right next to the door to
2 the canteen; is that correct?
3 A. Well, about 10 metres.
4 Q. And Mr. Bazaric was wounded at that place as
5 a guard?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know what he was -- how was he
8 wounded, a shell or a bullet or what?
9 A. A shell hit the place.
10 Q. And what were his injuries?
11 A. Well, I wouldn't know. Doctors would know
12 it. But I know where the wound was and I had to
13 bandage it and that was over the kidneys, somewhere in
14 the kidney area.
15 Q. And you extended first aid to him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember if somebody else was wounded
18 during such incidents?
19 A. With him, there was another one, he was Saro
20 (phoen), I can't remember his first name, but he was
21 wounded too. He was also a guard, another Domobran,
22 and he was with Ivica Bazaric at the gate.
23 Q. And do you recall if any of the prisoners
24 were wounded; did that happen?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I assume, but please correct me if I am
2 wrong, Mr. Kristo, that in those days, the defence
3 lines were very near the Kaonik facility since the
4 shells were falling around it; is that correct?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. Would you know how close the defence line was
7 to the frontline, to Kaonik, I mean?
8 A. You mean the distance.
9 Q. Yes, as the crow flies.
10 A. I don't know exactly, but perhaps a kilometre
11 or two, I wouldn't know exactly.
12 Q. Mr. Kristo, where do you work now?
13 A. Privately, Busovaca, in a private restaurant,
15 Q. So you are not with HVO anymore?
16 A. No.
17 Q. When did you leave HVO?
18 A. In '95.
19 Q. In '95?
20 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much. The
21 Defence has no further questions, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.
23 Mr. Niemann or Mr. Meddegoda, do you have any questions
24 for this witness?
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda
1 MR. MEDDEGODA: Just a few questions, Your
3 Q. Mr. Kristo, you said that there were
4 civilians who were brought to the kitchen, escorted by
5 the guards to take the food?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you know any of those Muslim
8 civilians who came to the kitchen to take the food?
9 A. Of course, I did, because they were friends
10 of long standing.
11 Q. And they were from Busovaca, as far as you
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And they were all law-abiding, good citizens
15 of the community, as yourself?
16 A. Well, how law been abiding they were, I
17 wouldn't know, but before the war, yes, we led the same
19 Q. But as far as you know, they were good
20 citizens of the community, as far as you are aware?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know why they were being detained at
23 the Kaonik barracks, at the Kaonik prison?
24 A. I don't know about that.
25 Q. You also said that there were times when the
1 equipment you had was not sufficient to cope with the
2 cooking -- with the cooking demand, for the cooking
4 A. I didn't understand you, excuse me.
5 Q. There was a time when you sought help from
6 the -- from Mr. Aleksovski with regard to obtaining
7 more cooking facilities?
8 A. From Mr. Aleksovski? No, I asked for men, I
9 asked for some assistance.
10 Q. And who did you ask for assistance?
11 A. Well, those prisoners, those who were there
12 because of some disciplinary transgressions.
13 Q. I know. They were the prisoners. Whom did
14 you ask for that assistance, from whom did you obtain
15 permission to get that assistance?
16 A. You mean down there, from the personnel?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Well, I said, yes, from Zlatko or the shift
19 leader if Zlatko was not there.
20 Q. Do you know who the shift leader was? Do you
21 recall who the shift leader was? Do you recall the
22 names of the shift leaders?
23 A. I don't. It was a long time ago.
24 MR. MEDDEGODA: No further questions, Your
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, have you any
2 more questions?
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours, we
4 have no further questions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Kristo, you have just
6 finished giving your testimony here. We have no
7 further questions for you, and therefore thank you for
8 coming and we wish you a nice return home. Thank you
9 very much.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence
14 would like to call its next witness, Mr. Janko Batinic.
15 (The witness entered)
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, sir. It is
17 me who is talking to you. Can you hear me? You will
18 now read the declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I
20 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
21 the truth.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. You may be
24 WITNESS: JANKO BATINIC
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Are you all right? Are you
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You will now answer the
4 questions which Mr. Mikulicic will pose to you.
5 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Batinic. I am Goran
7 Mikulicic, and here I am representing the interests of
8 Mr. Aleksovski, my client. I have some questions
9 relating to the indictment, and I should like you to
10 answer them to the best of your recollection.
11 Mr. Batinic, will you tell us where and when
12 were you born?
13 A. I was born in the municipality of Busovaca in
14 the village of Carica, on the 29th of June, 1944.
15 Q. Mr. Batinic, have you always lived in the
16 area or not?
17 A. Yes, I have.
18 Q. So this is the area of the municipality of
20 A. It is.
21 Q. What is your ethnic origin?
22 A. I am a Croat by origin.
23 Q. And your religion?
24 A. A Catholic.
25 Q. Where and when did you attend school,
1 Mr. Batinic?
2 A. In 1963, I graduated from the teachers'
3 school in Travnik.
4 Q. And elementary school?
5 A. In Busovaca.
6 Q. And did you get a job after completing the
7 teachers' school?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember your first job?
10 A. Yes. My first job was in a village in the
11 territory of Busovaca which was 100 per cent Muslim.
12 Q. And what kind of a job did you have there?
13 A. I was headmaster.
14 Q. And after that ...
15 A. I then moved into the municipal government.
16 Q. Until when were you a teacher, a headmaster?
17 A. Until 1965.
18 Q. You said that after 1965, you moved and you
19 went to work for the municipal authorities. Could you
20 please describe it?
21 A. I became the head of the Territorial Defence
22 command at the time.
23 Q. You mentioned that it was back in 1965; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Batinic, do you remember that it was
2 during the former Yugoslavia. So, Mr. Batinic, do you
3 remember what was the task of the Territorial Defence?
4 A. The task of the Territorial Defence was the
5 reserve formation which would perhaps take part in case
6 of a war.
7 Q. Mr. Batinic, did you serve the army?
8 A. Yes, I did. I served the JNA in the reserve
9 officers school at Bilica.
10 Q. Do you remember when that was?
11 A. 1965.
12 Q. Did you reach a rank?
13 A. Yes, a Major, I became a Major, but that was
15 Q. Mr. Batinic, do you recall the beginning of
16 armed conflicts in the territory of the Municipality of
18 A. Of course I do.
19 Q. Could you tell us what it is that you
20 remember about that? When did it happen?
21 A. Well, it was in '92, the second conflict.
22 Q. What were you doing? Where were you at that
24 A. I was an officer in the Croatian Defence
25 Council, in the HVO.
1 Q. But were you still an active officer or were
2 you retired at that time?
3 A. I was retired.
4 Q. Mr. Batinic, were you a retired military
5 person or were you a civilian pensioner?
6 A. I was pensioned off as a civil servant, as a
7 municipal civil servant.
8 Q. In other words, as a civil servant; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. However, despite the fact that in 1993, you
12 were retired, that you were a civilian at that time,
13 you nevertheless volunteered for the Croatian Defence
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where were you deployed? Where were you
18 A. The defence line facing Zenica.
19 Q. Mr. Batinic, were you throughout the first
20 semester of 1993 on the same positions, or were you
21 moved somewhere?
22 A. I was there until the end of February '93 and
23 then I was sent elsewhere.
24 Q. And that other post, where was that that you
25 went at the end of February '93?
1 A. I became the commander of the company, of the
2 company which was formed in the area and which was
3 autonomous in the territory of Busovaca.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm sorry, I think there was
5 a slight error in translation.
6 Q. Would you tell us what you were?
7 A. I was deputy commander of the company.
8 Q. So you said that this company was a Domobran
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. For clarification sake, will you please tell
12 us what kind of an army unit is it and who was it made
14 A. The basic purpose of this Domobran company
15 was because we felt that Busovaca would be blocked off
16 shortly because there were no young men there as they
17 were all on the defence line and we decided that we had
18 to do something to help defend Busovaca, and so we
19 agreed to form that company.
20 Its principal task was to secure all
21 facilities in the territory of Busovaca which were of
22 any relevance to the defence of Busovaca, such as
23 bridges, then other important objects, such as the
24 medical centre, the post office, the security of the
25 hospital, the health centre, night patrols, because
1 there were not enough military police around the town,
2 so we organised night patrols around the town to
3 prevent plunder and subversive activities, and we also
4 secured some plots of land where we sowed potatoes and
5 wheat so as to feed the population during the blockade,
6 because we knew that famine could easily set in, that
7 our children might starve, and so we tried to secure
8 these things so as to survive through the war.
9 Q. Mr. Batinic, what was the composition of this
10 Domobran company?
11 A. This Domobran company was made of young men
12 who could carry arms under law and all those people of
13 elderly age who could go to the defence line, so we
14 even had those who were 75 years old included in our
16 Q. Did you have any uniforms or ...
17 A. No. They mostly wore civilian clothes.
18 Q. Did you have any weapons?
19 A. Yes, we did, but those were ordinary hunting
20 rifles, shotguns and such, a few pistols, and perhaps
21 some old automatics, Russian ones.
22 Q. In other words, if I have understood you
23 properly, Mr. Batinic, the principal task of this new
24 military unit was security?
25 A. Yes, but we also secured the prison, that is,
1 the entrance to the prison.
2 Q. What prison do you have in mind?
3 A. The district prison, Kaonik.
4 Q. And so, Mr. Batinic, at that time, those
5 young men, able-bodied men, were on the defence lines;
6 is that so?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And other young men who could not do the army
9 duty became members of the Domobran company; is that
11 A. Yes, but not all of them.
12 Q. How strong was that company; do you remember?
13 A. Yes, I remember. It had some 80 to 100 men.
14 Q. How many objects did that company, that is
15 its men, secure?
16 A. About 20 objects.
17 Q. What did you do? Did you take shifts or
19 A. In shifts.
20 Q. How long was one shift and how many men?
21 A. Every shift was two men strong, and they were
22 four-hour shifts.
23 Q. What does that mean? Four hours on guard and
24 then a rest?
25 A. Yes, then the second shift would come, but
1 that was only at night-time.
2 Q. Mr. Batinic, apart from those elderly persons
3 and those young men who were not deemed as capable of
4 carrying weapons and who yet made up this Domobran
5 company, were there some other people in the territory
6 of Busovaca who did not join the company and yet were
7 not on the defence lines? Were there any such men?
8 A. Yes, there were.
9 Q. Mr. Batinic, do you know what those people
10 did during the armed conflicts? What was their duty?
11 I mean, those who were neither involved with the HVO
12 nor with the HVO company.
13 A. Well, at times they helped those who were at
14 the defence line, that is, took food to them.
15 Q. Were there also some instances where those
16 people were under labour obligations?
17 A. Yes, there were.
18 Q. What were those labour obligations?
19 A. Digging out trenches.
20 Q. Who were those people who were thus obligated
21 from the territory of the Municipality of Busovaca?
22 Were they the citizens of the Croat ethnic origin, of
23 Serb ethnic origin, or Muslim, or all of them?
24 A. All of them.
25 Q. Do you know, Mr. Batinic, how were they
1 called up for this labour obligation? How did they go
3 A. They were called up by the defence office,
4 and that was their labour obligation.
5 Q. Mr. Batinic, you mentioned that the company
6 that you were the deputy commander of also secured --
7 guarded the prison at Kaonik; is that correct?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. How many sentries, how many guards were there
10 on a shift at Kaonik?
11 A. There were eight guards at the entrance, at
12 the gate, to the object, to that facility where the
13 prison was.
14 Q. Do you remember perhaps when it was that your
15 company began to secure that facility where Kaonik
16 was? When was it?
17 A. As far as I can -- as far as I remember, it
18 was sometime from February onward.
19 Q. What year are you talking about?
20 A. '93.
21 Q. You personally, were you also at Kaonik?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In what capacity?
24 A. Deputy commander of the company.
25 Q. What did you do there? Also for security
1 reasons or something else?
2 A. I was the deputy commander, so it was my duty
3 to do rounds of my men by day and by night.
4 Q. Mr. Batinic, does that mean that you visited
5 Kaonik relatively frequently?
6 A. Yes, it does.
7 Q. Could you tell us if the members of the
8 Domobran company guarded only the entrance to Kaonik or
9 did they also guard objects within Kaonik?
10 A. For a while, they also guarded the prison
11 within the facility, but only in the surroundings, not
12 inside, and subsequently they withdrew to the entrance.
13 Q. I'm not sure I really understood you. Did
14 they guard the facility, outside the facility, or were
15 they outside?
16 A. They were on the outside.
17 Q. During your rounds in Kaonik, have you had
18 the opportunity of meeting Mr. Aleksovski?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you meet him once or several times?
21 A. Several times. We cooperated.
22 Q. Would you recognise Mr. Aleksovski if you saw
23 him today?
24 A. Of course, I would.
25 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness
1 is indicating in the direction of the accused,
2 identifies him as Zlatko Aleksovski.
3 Q. Mr. Batinic, you mention that you cooperated
4 with Mr. Batinic (sic). What kind of cooperation was
6 A. Well, we discussed various business things
7 and agreement with him. I sent him an electrician who
8 worked with him all the time, that is, he looked after
9 electrical installations and everything else, and we
10 also discussed the repair of water supply to ensure the
11 supply of water to the prison and things like that.
12 Q. You mentioned electric supply and water
13 supply. Was it all right or --
14 A. No, it was irregular because pipes broke down
15 often, but they were also repaired in time.
16 Q. What about power supply?
17 A. Difficult at first.
18 Q. Mr. Batinic, on those occasions you met
19 Mr. Aleksovski, did you ever notice, that is, can you
20 remember today what kind of clothes he wore? Did he
21 wear a uniform or civilian clothes?
22 A. I often met with Mr. Zlatko, both in the
23 office and outside, and at times he truly would wear
24 the upper part of a uniform which was very old, very
25 shabby, ragged. I had a new uniform, for instance, and
1 he would wear civilian trousers, and also, on a number
2 of occasions, he was in civilian clothes.
3 Q. Do you remember if the uniform he wore had
4 some markings there of the army he belonged to or
6 A. Oh, no.
7 Q. Do you know if Mr. Aleksovski belonged to a
8 military unit?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Would you please explain what is it? That
11 you don't know or whether he wasn't?
12 A. He was not.
13 Q. Mr. Batinic, did you know the guards who
14 worked inside the prison at Kaonik?
15 A. At one point in time, there were more
16 guards -- no, no, no, but not in the inside. I knew
17 the guards who worked outside but not who worked
19 Q. What was the basic duty of your guards, if we
20 may call them so, people from the Domobran company who
21 secured the facility from the outside? What was their
22 basic duty?
23 A. The basic duty of people who secured the gate
24 was to prevent people from entering the prison in an
25 unauthorised way. They were armed.
1 Q. What kind of arms did they have?
2 A. The usual arms, rifles, M-49s.
3 Q. And you said a Tandzara rifle?
4 A. It's the M-49 rifle. It's an old army rifle,
6 Q. From World War II?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But they also had hunting rifles?
9 A. Yes, who already had them, yes.
10 Q. These were their private rifles?
11 A. Yes, legally-owned private rifles.
12 Q. You said that you had two of your guards at
13 the gate.
14 A. Yes, but there were more of them because they
15 worked in shifts.
16 Q. But there were two in one shift?
17 A. Yes, two in one shift.
18 Q. Mr. Batinic, as for the guards, your guards
19 who secured the entry to the Kaonik facility, did you
20 hear from them that some people would like to force
21 their entry, some soldiers, somebody else?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Batinic, what facility
24 was in the immediate vicinity of the gate inside the
25 facility and who was located there to the left of the
2 A. It was a facility of the military police.
3 Q. Mr. Batinic, at the time of the armed
4 conflicts, what was the supply situation as far as
5 food, clothes, electricity, water as concerned in the
6 Busovaca area? Was it regular? Was it interrupted?
7 What can you say about it?
8 A. It was a very difficult time, especially
9 during the blockade from the 21st of March, 1993,
10 because the food supplies were cut. We had to
11 eat lentils, we all know what it is, and everybody had
12 to eat that. Supplies of food and humanitarian aid
13 were very poor. 14.000 refugees were then situated in
14 the Busovaca area, the (inaudible) area of Busovaca,
15 because the majority of the area was controlled by the
16 Muslim forces, and so the 14.000 refugees were there
17 and food supplies were scarce and we had to prepare our
18 own food and take care of our own food.
19 Q. How did you personally -- what did you eat
21 A. At home. Everybody ate at home. All members
22 of my company ate at home.
23 Q. Do you know when they were on duty, where did
24 they eat?
25 A. Where they were at the time and where the
1 food was.
2 Q. Do you know where members of the company, of
3 the Domobran company, ate when they secured the Kaonik
5 A. At Kaonik.
6 Q. Did you personally have meals at Kaonik?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What was the food like, in your opinion?
9 A. It was good. There was meat too.
10 Q. Do you know whether the food was prepared --
11 there was special food for prisoners and special food
12 for guards, or did they eat the same food?
13 A. They ate the same food.
14 Q. Mr. Batinic, during your rounds at Kaonik,
15 did you go into the prison itself?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What, in your opinion, were the conditions in
18 those parts of the prison that you personally saw, and
19 I imply hygiene conditions and how did the prisoners
20 look like? Can you tell us something about that?
21 A. Yes, yes. I, on several occasions, visited
22 the prison, even during the night, together with
23 Mr. Zlatko, and I visited my people even during the
24 night to see how they were, and Zlatko was there
25 frequently during the night, and on the first such
1 occasion, when we visited the prison, there was no
2 electricity supply in Busovaca, so Zlatko had his own
3 lamp and we went to the prison. Zlatko said that we
4 should visit the first cell that was next to us. I
5 accepted that proposal. We opened the gate. There was
6 no light and there was just a candle in the corridor,
7 and in the cell number 1, the Mujahedin in civilian
8 clothes were located, there were about seven or eight
9 of them.
10 When we entered the cell, we did not address
11 each other by our personal name; it was the usual way
12 of -- at the times of war. They addressed Zlatko by
13 Asam Allah (phoen) and he asked them whether they felt
14 well and they stood up out of respect. They looked
15 fine to me. They were not exhausted.
16 Q. Tell me, Mr. Batinic, you said that they were
17 Mujahedins. Which ethnic background? They were
19 A. No, they were foreigners.
20 Q. Do you remember, when was that?
21 A. I don't remember the date.
22 Q. But it was in the prison?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell us, Mr. Batinic, did you have the
25 opportunity to see people, civilians, who were brought
1 from Busovaca to Kaonik? Did you meet them?
2 A. Yes, because during the same night, we
3 visited a cell where the Muslims, all the young people
4 were located.
5 Q. Tell us, Mr. Batinic, did you have the
6 opportunity to see the hangar which was situated above
7 the prison?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mr. Batinic, did you, by any chance, see the
10 hygiene conditions in the prison? Was it dirty there?
11 A. No, no, it wasn't. Because the lamp was very
12 powerful and I could see well.
13 Q. Did you see whether they had toilets there,
15 A. Not in the cell but outside.
16 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Batinic, whether there
17 was heating in that building?
18 A. There was a huge furnace in the corner that
19 heated the entire area.
20 Q. What kind of a furnace?
21 A. The big kind.
22 Q. What was it fed on?
23 A. Timber, wood.
24 Q. When you were doing the rounds and when you
25 visited the prison, did you see or hear that some of
1 the prisoners were beaten, maltreated, or something of
2 the sort?
3 A. Judging by the information from my people who
4 secured the prison, they praised the situation, they
5 reported to me as their commander, because they had to
6 report to me.
7 Q. Mr. Batinic, you said that Busovaca was
8 surrounded by Muslim forces and that the supply
9 situation was difficult as far as food and clothing
10 were concerned. Tell us about the security situation
11 in the area of Busovaca at the time. Was there any
12 shelling, shooting?
13 A. The situation was very difficult. There was
14 much shelling, and the shells hit the prison too. One
15 shell hit near or in the prison and wounded two of my
16 members, and the second hit the very entrance of the
17 prison, and two were wounded seriously.
18 Q. You mean four of them?
19 A. Yes, four. So they were shelling, shelling
20 the prison, and the Muslims were inside, and they knew
21 that -- the Muslims who were shelling -- knew that
22 their people were in the prison.
23 Q. Tell us, Mr. Batinic, do you remember whether
24 some of the prisoners were hurt during the shelling?
25 A. No, no.
1 Q. Does it mean actually that the prisoners were
2 in a better position than the guards?
3 A. Yes. It is always secure for the people --
4 more secure for the people who are inside.
5 Q. What kind of wounds did they sustain?
6 Serious or slight?
7 A. The two of them who were up there in the
8 prison sustained lighter injuries and the people who
9 were down there had been seriously wounded.
10 Q. But they survived?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did your people tell you, Mr. Batinic, how
13 the guards from your company, how did they treat
14 Muslims who were detained at Kaonik? How did they
15 treat them?
16 A. According to what they told me, they treated
17 them quite well. They even gave them cigarettes. They
18 brought them water, they gave them cigarettes, they
19 brought them timber and wood because there was
20 another furnace later, in a cell, so they brought them
21 wood there. There were examples that some of them
22 played cards because they used to be neighbours.
23 Q. You said cigarettes first. Was it
25 A. No, because they were neighbours, they knew
1 each other, and it was a custom then to offer
2 cigarettes to your neighbours.
3 Q. At that time were cigarettes in short supply?
4 A. At that time, you paid cigarettes in gold. A
5 box of cigarettes was 90 Deutschemarks.
6 Q. During the blockade?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. They nevertheless shared cigarettes with
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Do you know whether they also brought food
12 from their homes?
13 A. Yes, I knew about that because some of them
14 took their neighbours home to dinner, the guards who
15 lived near the prison.
16 Q. Did somebody complain about maltreatment,
17 about being beaten, somebody of the prisoners?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Tell us, Mr. Batinic, until when were you
20 deputy commander of the Domobran company?
21 A. Until June 1994.
22 Q. And you are now retired?
23 A. Yes, I'm retired, but I have a job in the
24 educational sector.
25 Q. But you had (sic) no connection with the
1 Domobran company?
2 A. No, I am demobilised.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Mr. Batinic. No
4 further questions for the Defence.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.
6 We shall now have a 20-minute break and resume
8 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, Mr. Meddegoda.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, excuse me. We
13 have to wait a moment because Mr. Aleksovski has not
14 arrived yet.
15 (The accused entered court)
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, Mr. Niemann. Now you
17 can begin.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Batinic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. You said that you were in charge of the
22 guards, the home guards at Kaonik, between February and
23 April. What time in February did you first take up
24 that post; can you remember the date?
25 A. On the 28th of February, '93.
1 Q. And through to what date in April? Are you
2 able to help us with that?
3 A. I was the deputy commander until the end of
4 April '94.
5 Q. Now, as deputy commander, I take it it was
6 your duty to travel around the municipality of Busovaca
7 to the various locations where your soldiers were
8 guarding, doing their guard duty; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I take it that you would spend a little while
11 at each of one of these places during the course of a
12 day; is that how you functioned?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you have a sort of central headquarters
15 location where you would start off from, like an office
16 or a barracks somewhere?
17 A. An office. Yes, I did have an office.
18 Q. And where was that located?
19 A. In the building of forest management in
21 Q. I take it that if you would think back now, I
22 know it's very difficult because it's some time ago,
23 but if you were to think back now and divide up your
24 day, would you spend most of the time in the office and
25 then the balance of the time visiting your various
1 locations? Can you help me with that, the sort of time
2 that you allocate in a day --
3 A. In the field.
4 Q. So you spent most of the time in the field.
5 A. At times my working hours took 24 hours.
6 Q. Did you spend about equal time at each place,
7 did you?
8 A. Well, at some places more, at some places
10 Q. Now, how was it that you came to find
11 yourself drafted into the reservists? Is that
12 something which you're given an official notification
13 of, is it?
14 A. I did not understand the question.
15 Q. Sorry. As I understood your evidence, I
16 think you said that in 1992, you were drafted into the
17 reservists. I think that's what you said. If that was
18 so, how did that come about? Did you receive a notice
19 from somebody?
20 A. I said that I was a volunteer in the Croatian
21 Defence Council before I was appointed the deputy
22 commander of a company.
23 Q. Oh. So you didn't start off as a reservist
24 of the TO in 1992, you went straight into the HVO, is
25 that right, as a volunteer?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. So is it right for me to say that at no stage
3 with you a reservist during 1992-93, at no stage were
4 you a reservist with the TO?
5 A. '94, there was no Territorial Defence, there
6 was the Croat Defence Council and the Muslim forces.
7 Q. That's right. And I think I'm right in
8 saying, aren't I, that the remnants of the TO basically
9 went over to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Now the rank of Major that you had, was that
12 a rank that you carried on into the HVO, the
13 Domobrans? I might have that wrong, the pronunciation
15 A. Yes, but I carried out the duties of a
16 lieutenant, the company lieutenant. That was my
17 formation duty.
18 Q. I see. Did you wear any insignia to indicate
19 your rank?
20 A. There were no insignia at the time.
21 Q. Tell us about how it was the decision was
22 made to establish the Domobran company. Was that
23 something that was participated in by a number of the
24 leaders in the district?
25 A. The decision was taken on the basis of the
1 order of the Ministry of Defence of Herceg-Bosna and
2 then the next decision was made by the mayor of the
4 Q. This is the mayor of the Municipality of
5 Busovaca, is it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And who was that at the time?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. You don't know who it was in the Department
10 of Defence that decided that this would be established,
11 this Domobran company?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you have any idea who equipped it? Where
14 did the equipment come from, what little equipment that
15 you had in terms of military and --
16 A. It was personal equipment and some of it came
17 from the regiment, from the HVO regiment.
18 Q. I see. But what HVO regiment would that be?
19 A. I don't remember which one. I don't know the
21 Q. You, as you said, were a lieutenant, you were
22 a deputy commander. What was the name of your
23 commander? What was his name?
24 A. The commander was Florijan Glavocevic, but he
25 was more of a political leader, political function, and
1 I was the operative man.
2 Q. Do you know the sort of chain of command of
3 the Domobran after the commander and yourself? Who did
4 they then report to? Was it directly to someone in the
5 Department of Defence, or can you assist us by telling
6 us a little bit about the structure of it?
7 A. We were autonomous and subordinated to the
8 municipal mayor.
9 Q. I see. So if you look to the ultimate
10 leader, it would be the local mayor of Busovaca who
11 would be your ultimate commander in chief; is that a
12 fair statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think you've mentioned this question, but I
15 just want to make sure that I do have it right. So are
16 you saying that during 1992 at least, at no stage did
17 you sort of take up duties as part of the TO, either in
18 a reserve capacity or otherwise?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, did the Domobrans have any
21 form of barracks anywhere, or was it just work on the
22 basis that they would come from home and go back home
23 each day?
24 A. They came from their homes and went back home
25 every day.
1 Q. Can you give us what recollections you have
2 of your first contacts with Mr. Aleksovski when it was
3 that the Domobrans took up the responsibility of
4 guarding the Kaonik facility? First of all, how did
5 the decision come about that you would assume this
6 responsibility? Can you remember that?
7 A. Yes, I do remember it. As the defence lines
8 were a very dangerous area, we were afraid that they
9 would be broken through by Muslim forces, all people of
10 a younger age went to the defence line, and we agreed
11 to help in that sense to prevent, that is, to prevent
12 the entrance -- to prevent any subversive activities or
13 anyone entering the prison and harassing prisoners and
14 that was why we decided to set up guards at the
15 entrance so that is when I met Zlatko.
16 Q. Who was it that decided this? Was this
17 something decided in conjunction with Mr. Aleksovski?
18 Is that something that you and he discussed and is that
19 why it came about?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you first met him, did he say that he
22 was concerned about the proximity of the prison to the
23 frontline and the prospect of it possibly being broken
24 into by the enemy forces?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. And when presented with this issue by
2 Mr. Aleksovski, did you feel, obviously you must have
3 done, that you had the capability of providing
4 protection for the facility?
5 A. Yes. We called a meeting of the company
6 command and took that decision.
7 Q. Did Mr. Aleksovski attend this meeting at
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did Mr. Aleksovski explain to you precisely
11 what it is that he wanted achieved by utilising the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was this before the decision was taken, or
16 A. Before.
17 Q. Obviously, once he had explained what it is
18 that he wanted, that's when you came to assess it to
19 see whether you had the capability, no doubt?
20 A. No, no. One explained to us what the task
21 would be, the command then met and decided to do it
22 this way.
23 Q. Did you then have any further discussions
24 with Mr. Aleksovski when you actually took up your post
25 at the camp?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was the nature of the discussions? Can
3 you help us with that? I know it's a long time ago,
4 but if you could just sort of give us the general
5 background of the discussion that you had with him, I
6 would be grateful.
7 A. I don't remember the details.
8 Q. Did he, for example, say to you where it is
9 he would like the protection provided; location and
10 things of that nature?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did he discuss with you any question of
13 limitations in terms of your soldiers coming inside the
14 facility or anything of that nature? Did he specify
15 anything in relation to those sorts of things?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did he also talk to you about what sort of
18 procedures would be put in place in relation to who
19 would be permitted to enter Kaonik and who would be
20 forbidden entry?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And these are all matters that you settled
23 with him and immediately implemented, I take it, after
24 your men took up their position?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You spoke in your evidence about people being
2 utilised for the purposes of labour obligations. Are
3 you talking about --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you talking about citizens who were still
6 in their houses as such, if I can put it that way,
7 during 1993, or are you talking about citizens who were
8 being detained in the Kaonik facility?
9 A. I referred to citizens who were not deployed
10 as members of the Croat Defence Council.
11 Q. I see. So these were people who were still
12 at home, I take it. They weren't in the prison.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You may not know this, but if you do, you
15 might help me. When it came to these people being
16 gathered up and taken for labour duties, how was that
17 achieved? Were they sent a written notice or did
18 somebody go out and see them or were they told to
19 report to the centre of the town? Do you remember how
20 that happened?
21 A. The Defence office of the municipality kept
22 the records and they mobilised those people.
23 Q. Yes. I imagine that's how it happened. But
24 what I'm really looking for is the process that was
25 involved more than the official position. So how were
1 the people notified that they would be required to
2 assist with labour obligations? How would someone find
3 out about that during that period, 1993, in the early
5 A. By summons, or by courier and the person.
6 Q. I see. So someone would actually receive a
7 written document and then that would direct them to go
8 to a certain place at a certain time and then they
9 would follow that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. And I take it that if someone was
12 too ill or there was some other disability which
13 affected their ability to do that, then they would
14 have -- the obligation would be on them to provide
15 notice to the Department of Defence that they couldn't
17 A. Or to go to see a doctor.
18 Q. Yes. And I take it that you know of no
19 instances at least where members of the community who
20 were ill or injured or couldn't participate in these
21 labour obligations, you know of no instances where they
22 were forced to do that, notwithstanding their medical
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. I may have had heard your evidence wrong, but
1 I thought you said something to the effect that the
2 Domobran were initially guarding inside the prison
3 complex itself, not inside the cells but inside the
4 complex of Kaonik for a while, and then that stopped.
5 Was that your evidence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why did you stop? What reason did the
8 Domobran stop guarding inside the complex itself; do
9 you know?
10 A. A shell fell and wounded two of my members,
11 and ever since, we did not guard up there.
12 Q. So when they were injured, the decision was
13 then taken that it was too dangerous for them?
14 A. Quite.
15 Q. Did that mean that the Domobran stopped
16 guarding the facility altogether at that stage or just
17 inside the complex?
18 A. They stopped guarding around the facility and
19 they were not inside, but after that, they guarded only
20 the entrance to the complex which included the prison.
21 Q. I see. So they continued -- after your men
22 were injured, they continued guarding the entrance to
23 the facility but they stopped guarding inside?
24 A. Not entrance into the facilities but the
25 entrance to the whole complex which included the
1 prison, that is, the entrance gate.
2 Q. So it was considered safe enough for them to
3 stay there at the entrance gate but not safe enough for
4 them to continue their duties guarding inside the
5 complex itself, inside the entrance gate?
6 A. But again a shell hit that gate too and
7 wounded two men there also, so it was dangerous there,
8 and yet we continued.
9 Q. Yes. But notwithstanding that, the men
10 continued their duty there.
11 The prison complex at Kaonik was very close
12 to the frontline, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. And I take it that there were other places in
15 Busovaca, at least, municipality, which were much safer
16 and much more distant from the frontline than the
17 Kaonik facility?
18 A. I didn't understand the question.
19 Q. I'm sorry. Yes. My question was that you
20 agreed with me that the Kaonik facility was very close
21 in proximity to the frontline, and my next question
22 was --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- I take it that there were other places,
25 locations inside the whole of the Municipality of
1 Busovaca which were further distant from the frontline
2 and therefore much safer; am I right in saying that?
3 A. That was not within my jurisdiction at the
5 Q. No, it was not a question of jurisdiction, it
6 was just a matter of your general knowledge. I think
7 you would agree with me, wouldn't you?
8 A. I have no knowledge of that. I have no
9 knowledge of that.
10 Q. What you're saying is other than at Kaonik,
11 you don't really know where the frontline was; is that
12 what you're telling us?
13 A. The frontline was close to Busovaca as a
15 Q. Yes. Do you know why the Muslim civilians
16 were imprisoned in Kaonik?
17 A. I have no knowledge of that, but I assume it
18 was for reasons of investigation or for security, I
19 think, but largely because of security.
20 Q. I think you've already told us that Kaonik
21 wasn't exactly a very secure place. Even your own men
22 suffered as a result of a shelling?
23 A. But by the Muslim forces themselves.
24 Q. Yes, of course. Tell me, we discussed a
25 moment ago conditions regarding authorisation into the
1 Kaonik facility. Do you remember what were the
2 criteria, the conditions, how could somebody be
3 permitted to enter? Can you remember what sort of
4 conditions were imposed if somebody fronted at the gate
5 of Kaonik and wanted to get in and met your men in the
6 Domobran, what did they need to do to convince them
7 that they should be given entry into the Kaonik prison?
8 A. Call the men on duty and then verify.
9 Q. I see. So they would ring Mr. Aleksovski,
10 would they, and say we have a gentleman here who has
11 turned up and --
12 A. No, no, no. No. While on duty, I mean, the
13 one that was on the duty of the facility.
14 Q. I see. So whoever that was, they would ring
15 that person and say, "Someone's arrived here," would
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Did the system work fairly successfully from
19 your memory in terms of whether they were successful --
20 A. I don't remember it, really.
21 Q. I think you did say, though, that they were
22 successful in guarding the facility. It wasn't a
23 failure or anything of that nature?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I take it that if they were able to keep
1 out or had the capacity to keep out members of the army
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they would likewise be able to
3 keep out HVO soldiers or other unwanted people, if
5 A. I don't understand.
6 Q. Well, all I'm saying is that if you had the
7 capacity to keep out members of the army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina from entering the Kaonik facility,
9 then I take it that it would be an easier task to keep
10 out your own soldiers or soldiers of the HVO, should it
11 be necessary to do that?
12 A. Presumably.
13 Q. Did Mr. Aleksovski ever say to you anything
14 about wanting to keep out members of the HVO? Did he
15 ever say to you, "I don't want these people to enter
16 and would you please take steps to prevent it?" Did he
17 ever have a discussion with you like that?
18 A. I did not.
19 Q. Now, the guards that worked inside the prison
20 itself, and I'm not talking about your Domobran that
21 worked inside the overall facility, but those prisoners
22 who worked right inside the prison itself and the
23 cells, do you know where they came from?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You don't know what organisation they
1 belonged to, organisationally, you don't know that?
2 A. They weren't part of my unit.
3 Q. No, no, no. Tell me: When you went and had
4 an inspection of the gaol or you went over the gaol or
5 prison with Mr. Aleksovski and you saw the people who
6 you described as Mujahedins there, why did you do
7 that? What was the purpose? Do you remember?
8 A. Well, we cooperated, we worked together, and
9 it was natural to make a visit.
10 Q. Would you look at Exhibit 67 for me, please,
11 and tell me whether or not you recognise any of these
12 people? And it may be difficult for you to do that, so
13 please don't be embarrassed because it's been a long
15 Just looking at that for me for a moment, do
16 you recognise any of those? You can pick it up and
17 have a look at it if it's easier for you?
18 A. It's very dark and it was a long time ago.
19 Q. That's fine. On this visit when you saw the
20 Mujahedin, you said that you also had an opportunity to
21 inspect the hygiene facilities, and I speak
22 specifically of the toilet facilities. How did you
23 differentiate the toilets that we use for the prisoners
24 as oppose to the guards' toilets?
25 A. I said that we did a round of cells and the
1 toilets were not inside the cells but outside, and I
2 did not go to the toilets.
3 Q. So you didn't have the opportunity to
4 actually inspect them for hygiene to see what their
5 hygiene was like?
6 A. No. I was not inspecting anything, I was
7 simply paying a visit.
8 Q. You spoke in your evidence about your guards,
9 that's guards of the Domobran, helping the prisoners,
10 and I take it you're specifically referring to the
11 Muslim civilian prisoners at the camp. Where did they
12 get this --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did they get their supply of cigarettes
15 from, do you know, that they gave to the prisoners?
16 A. Who?
17 Q. Your guards, the Domobran guards, that gave
18 them to the Muslims, do you know where they got them
20 A. From our unit.
21 Q. But they didn't come in as part of
22 humanitarian aid convoys that you know of, I take it?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. You also mentioned the fact that sometimes
25 your guards even extended such hospitality to the
1 Muslim prisoners as to take them home; do you remember
2 saying that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, I take it that if a guard, if one of
5 your Domobran -- one of your guards wanted to take a
6 prisoner home, they'd have to ask Mr. Aleksovski for
7 permission to do that, wouldn't they? They wouldn't
8 just take them out of the prison and walk away with the
9 prisoner, they'd see Mr. Aleksovski first?
10 A. I wouldn't know.
11 Q. Well, perhaps I might ask the question
12 another way: You don't know of any instances where
13 your guards were just permitted to walk in there, take
14 a prisoner, and walk off with them, I take it, they had
15 to get permission to do something like that, wouldn't
17 A. I know they took them, but when, I don't
19 Q. Likewise, if it came to sort of meeting with
20 the Muslim civilian prisoners that were kept inside the
21 cells, your guards would have to get permission to go
22 into the cells to see them, wouldn't they? They
23 couldn't sort of walk in there; it wasn't part of their
24 territory or jurisdiction?
25 A. I do not know in what way.
1 Q. Now, when you saw Mr. Aleksovski at the
2 Kaonik facility, tell me, where was his office located,
3 offices located -- it may be more than one?
4 A. At the entrance to the left, the first
5 building to the left. Subsequently it was transferred
6 to the upper part, but it was only temporarily
7 downstairs or down there.
8 Q. So was this the entrance to the whole Kaonik
9 facility, was it, that you understood his office to be?
10 A. Yes, the whole Kaonik complex.
11 Q. Would you look for me, please, at Exhibit
12 P46, and tell me whether this is the building you're
13 talking about?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. I'm wondering if you could help me for a
16 moment. Could you put that on the overhead projector
17 so their Honours can see it more easily, if you move
18 it, their Honours can't see. As best you can recall --
19 I know it's been a while -- but as best you're able,
20 are you able to point with your finger at the location
21 of the office that Mr. Aleksovski had and then the
22 location of the office upstairs that he had by
23 reference to the windows there? Can you do that, as
24 best you can?
25 A. No, I couldn't.
1 Q. You couldn't?
2 A. It was a long time ago.
3 Q. So as best you can remember, he had an office
4 downstairs at one stage and then, at a later stage, he
5 had an office upstairs? That's the best --
6 A. Downstairs for a very short while and very
7 quickly he moved upstairs.
8 Q. Thank you for that. You mentioned the fact
9 that you assisted Mr. Aleksovski by supplying him with
10 an electrician at one stage. What was his name; do you
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us what the electrician's name
15 A. Franjo Bagaric.
16 Q. When you saw the prisoners in the cell, it's
17 your evidence, isn't it, that you actually only visited
18 the one cell, that's the one occupied by the Mujahedin?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you know anyone who was working at the
21 camp by the name of Zarko Petrovic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. A person by the name of Miro Maric?
24 A. As far as I know, there was a Miro Maric, but
25 the man died.
1 Q. Do you know what his position was in the
2 camp, what he did in the camp at Kaonik or --
3 A. No, I don't. I don't know.
4 Q. What about a person by the name of Marko
5 Krilic? Did you ever hear of anyone by the name of
6 Marko Krilic?
7 A. No.
8 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your
9 Honour. Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, have you
11 additional questions?
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Maybe a couple of questions to clarify one part of the
14 evidence during the cross-examination of my learned
15 friend, if I may?
16 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic
17 Q. Mr. Batinic, when you spoke about where
18 Mr. Aleksovski's office was, you used the terms "up"
19 and "down." And in the record, we have here "upstairs"
20 and "downstairs," that is a ground floor and an upper
21 floor. Shall we try to clarify those.
22 Could you tell us if it is true that behind
23 the entrance, behind the iron gate, was the building,
24 the photograph of which you recognise here on the ELMO?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Is it true that you said that in that
2 building Mr. Aleksovski's office was for a very short
4 A. Yes, for a very short while, on the ground
6 Q. On the ground floor or on the first floor?
7 A. On the ground floor.
8 Q. Do you know after Mr. Aleksovski's office was
9 on the ground floor, where did it move after that?
10 A. To the prison facility -- next to the prison
12 Q. Is it true that you identified that facility
13 by saying "up?"
14 A. Yes, yes, up.
15 Q. Why do you say "up?"
16 A. Because it's up the hill.
17 Q. Does that mean that a building which housed a
18 prison and where there were cells, was at a higher
19 elevation, at a higher altitude than the first building
20 you've been referring to?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Does it mean, when you said up and down, did
23 you mean the position of the building in the area
24 rather than parts of the building?
25 A. The former.
1 Q. Do you know, Mr. Batinic, how long was
2 Mr. Aleksovski's office in that building below?
3 A. For a very, very short while, but I did not
4 really -- I know that I went to see him in this
5 building which was uphill a very short while
7 Q. Mr. Batinic, do you know perhaps why did
8 Mr. Aleksovski have the office in the first one?
9 A. Because there were no conditions for that
10 office in that building so it was agreed that it would
11 be there only temporarily. That is as far as I know.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. No further
14 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, I have a question.
15 It doesn't relate to the substance of the evidence.
16 You mentioned that you are a member of the
17 Domobran company. Is there a special meaning attached
18 to the word "Domobran?"
19 A. Domobran, in World War II, were regular
20 troops, like today -- because in the meantime, the
21 Croatian army was formed by the Croatian Defence
22 Council, the name we used was the Croatian Defence
23 Council, then the people who were older took up the
24 position in Domobran as remembering still that these
25 were regular troops in World War II, and you know that
1 the regiment later on became the Domobran regiment.
2 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Batinic, the Chamber
4 has no other questions for you, so it means that you
5 have finished your testimony, giving your evidence
6 before the Tribunal. Thank you very much, and we wish
7 you a pleasant journey home.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you have the
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. We
13 now call Stipo Juric as the witness for the Defence.
14 (The witness entered)
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, sir. Can
16 you hear me?
17 THE WITNESS: I do.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You will now read the
19 solemn declaration, please.
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. You may be
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You will now answer the
1 questions which Mr. Mikulicic will put to you.
2 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 WITNESS: STIPO JURIC
5 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Juric.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Are you comfortable?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. My name is Mikulicic and I am counsel for the
11 Defence of Mr. Aleksovski, and I will now pose you some
12 questions related to the events of 1993, so I kindly
13 ask you to answer to the best of your memory.
14 Mr. Juric, tell us, when were you born?
15 A. I was born on 7th of May, 1932.
16 Q. Where?
17 A. In Arias Krasno (phoen) near Busovaca.
18 Q. Is it part of the municipality of Busovaca?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Batinic (sic), tell us how far is the
21 village of Krasno from Busovaca?
22 A. About seven kilometres.
23 Q. What is your ethnic origin, Mr. Juric?
24 A. I'm a Croat.
25 Q. Are you a believer? Are you religious?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What religion?
3 A. Roman Catholic.
4 Q. Mr. Juric, have you lived for your whole life
5 in the Busovaca area?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Have you lived always at the same village or
8 did you go somewhere else after you were born?
9 A. I went to Zenica and then I returned to
10 Kaonik where I live at present.
11 Q. So you live at present in Kaonik?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Juric, did you go to school?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Which school?
16 A. Elementary and secondary school.
17 Q. Where did you go to elementary school?
18 A. In Busovaca.
19 Q. After that, you attended secondary school
21 A. In Zenica.
22 Q. What kind of school was that?
23 A. That was a mining industrial school.
24 Q. After completing the secondary school, did
25 you find a job?
1 A. I first went to the army to do my service at
2 the Yugoslav People's Army. After that, I found a job
3 in Zenica where I worked until I was retired.
4 Q. So you served, you were recruited to the
5 former Yugoslav People's Army as a conscript?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have any rank there?
8 A. Yes, private first class.
9 Q. After doing your military service, you found
10 the job in Zenica?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What kind of a job?
13 A. I was a locksmith.
14 Q. And you worked there until you were retired?
15 A. I was promoted. I was a foreman for diesel
16 locomotives and I was retired in such capacity.
17 Q. Do you remember when did you -- when you
19 A. On 25th December, 1990.
20 Q. After retirement, you went to Kaonik, you
21 lived in Kaonik?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Since you lived in Kaonik, Mr. Juric, do you
24 know of the facility that was situated there, the
25 facility that housed -- that was used formerly by the
1 Yugoslav People's Army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of a facility was that?
4 A. It was a military facility used in the former
5 Yugoslavia where army troops were located to have
6 their -- I don't know what was housed in this facility
7 besides the troops.
8 Q. Did you have any opportunity of entering that
9 facility at that time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Mr. Batinic -- correction, Juric, I
12 apologise, Mr. Juric, do you remember what happened at
13 the start of 1993 when armed conflicts broke out in the
14 Busovaca area between Croats and Muslims?
15 A. I do remember that.
16 Q. Where were you at the time?
17 A. At home.
18 Q. In Kaonik?
19 A. In Kaonik.
20 Q. Do you know, when was that exactly and what
21 do you remember about this event?
22 A. I don't know the exact date, but I remember
23 that up there in Kacuni a man was killed, and the
24 conflicts intensified since that time onwards and
25 became full-scale conflicts between Muslims and Croats.
1 Q. You mentioned the village of Kacuni where a
2 man was killed. What was the population of Kacuni?
3 A. Predominantly Muslims.
4 Q. Do you remember who was the man that was
6 A. A person by the name of Ivica Petrovic.
7 Q. Was he a Muslim or a Croat?
8 A. A Croat.
9 Q. What happened after that?
10 A. After that, in Busovaca itself, we saw the
11 separation and preparation of, I don't know, the
12 digging of trenches, and the Muslims separated
13 themselves in the surroundings and there was an attempt
14 at conquering Busovaca and expelling Croats, and that's
15 how the conflict began, and this is how it was.
16 Q. Mr. Juric, did you participate in these
17 events? Did you take part in the defence?
18 A. No, no, I was not involved in anything at
19 that time.
20 Q. Were you later involved in any way?
21 A. Later, the Defence Council in Busovaca formed
22 a Domobran unit that secured some facilities, and that
23 is how I was involved and engaged too.
24 Q. Mr. Juric, who were members of that Domobran
1 A. For the most part, these were elderly people
2 who were not able to go to the frontlines, and most of
3 them were civilians and some of them had their uniforms
4 but most of them had not.
5 Q. This is how you got involved too?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember when it was?
8 A. On the 1st of March in 1993.
9 Q. Did you have some orders, some position?
10 A. Well, I was ordered to secure some
11 facilities. That was my duty.
12 Q. Mr. Juric, did you have a uniform?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did other members of the Domobran units have
16 A. Most of them wore civilian clothes.
17 Q. Did you have any arms?
18 A. I had an old Russian automatic weapon without
19 any bullets, just, you know, to brandish arms.
20 Q. Who gave it to you?
21 A. The commander. We had no ammunition for that
22 type of weapon. Later I received a few bullets just to
23 have them in case I need them.
24 Q. You said it was an old Russian automatic
25 weapon. Where did it come from?
1 A. I don't know. It might have come even from
2 World War I.
3 Q. And this automatic weapon from World War I
4 was the arm that you carried with no ammunition; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Juric, you said that it was your duty to
8 secure some facilities in Busovaca; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember which facilities they were --
11 in which you personally were involved?
12 A. I personally was in charge of securing the
13 bridges, then the post building, and then I was
14 transferred up there to secure the facility in which
15 the people from the surrounding villages were
16 detained. So it was my duty then.
17 Q. Do you refer to the Kaonik facility?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How far is it from your home?
20 A. About 1.000 metres, roughly.
21 Q. Mr. Juric, you also said that people from the
22 surrounding villages were interned there. What
24 A. Skradno, Loncari, Strane, Jelinac, these were
25 the villages from which people were brought from and
1 most were known to me.
2 Q. Do you know any of those people?
3 A. I knew many of them because we worked
5 Q. Since you knew the situation at the time of
6 armed conflict, do you know whether, in the vicinity of
7 these villages, there was any fighting? Was it near
8 the frontline?
9 A. It was precisely because of the struggles and
10 the vicinity of the frontline that the people were
11 brought there for their own security, and that's how
12 they were accommodated there, because they had no where
13 else to go on the other side, and because the fighting
14 took place in the vicinity and that's how they were
15 accommodated, for their own security.
16 Q. I see. Do you know who brought them there,
17 to Kaonik?
18 A. Well, I guess the army. Who else?
19 Q. Do you remember that people would come there
20 of their own volition?
21 A. Yes, some people came there of their own free
22 will to seek protection.
23 Q. From the village of Skradno?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did they stay for a long time at Kaonik or
1 was it temporarily?
2 A. It was a temporary solution, not for a long
3 time, because people were leaving whenever they wanted
4 and wherever they could.
5 Q. And when they came to Kaonik, whether they
6 were brought there or whether they came there of their
7 own free will, where were they accommodated?
8 A. In one of the buildings up there, they had a
9 furnace there, they had food there, they were
10 accommodated there, and this is how it was.
11 Q. And do you know that, Mr. Juric, because you
12 secured the facility?
13 A. Yes. I was securing the facility.
14 Q. Was your duty to secure the facility from the
15 outside or were you doing that on the inside?
16 A. No, just from the outside.
17 Q. How many people worked in one shift from your
18 unit, from your Domobran company?
19 A. Two per shift.
20 Q. And how were you deployed?
21 A. We worked two hour shifts and then the other
22 two people came and we were deployed at one part of the
23 building and the other person was on the other side,
24 and we would allow people to go out for toilet reasons,
25 to bring out wood, water, especially overnight to put
1 the heat on when it was colder, we would allow them to
2 bring the wood, we talked to them.
3 We even gave them cigarettes, if we had to,
4 we gave them some food, because most of the people were
5 known to us and at least, speaking for myself, I had
6 the same attitude towards them as towards my
8 Q. And they were actually your neighbours; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes, of course.
11 Q. Tell us, Mr. Juric, when you worked shifts
12 and they lasted for two hours, what would you do after
13 your turn? Where did you rest? Did you go home or did
14 you stay in Kaonik?
15 A. Some people who lived nearby went home
16 because after a four-hour rest, they took up their
17 duties again, and those who lived further away, they
18 would stay and sleep in Kaonik or take some rest in
20 Q. Mr. Juric, you also said that people who were
21 accommodated in the hangar which you secured, that you
22 took them out for toilet reasons, to pick up wood,
23 et cetera. Where was this WC situated?
24 A. Just across the building, opposite the
25 building, nearby.
1 Q. Tell us whether, inside the building, there
2 was electricity and whether water supply existed in the
3 building; do you know anything about it?
4 A. No, I wouldn't know exactly whether this
6 Q. Do you know anything about how these people
7 ate, what kind of food they had?
8 A. Just like anybody else. What we ate, they
9 ate too, depending how the situation was because nobody
10 had enough or sufficient food.
11 Q. Why do you say that nobody had sufficient
13 A. Because we didn't have enough food because we
14 were surrounded for months and supplies were irregular
15 and what we had we ate.
16 Q. Did you personally eat in Kaonik or did you
17 go home for your meals and rest?
18 A. I ate there, down there, when I was on duty,
19 because the situation at home was no better.
20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Juric, the people who were
21 accommodated there from the surrounding villages, what
22 was the treatment of the guards towards them? Did you
23 see anybody maltreat them, beat them, or in any other
24 way harass them?
25 A. No, I have never seen that and I personally
1 didn't do that and I never saw anyone doing it because
2 any of the guards who could help those people in any
3 way, they did so.
4 Q. Did you help them in any way?
5 A. Yes, I did, and I can even give you the exact
6 names of the people and how I helped them.
7 Q. Well, give us the names. Please.
8 A. I helped Ismet Mekic from Skradno to take his
9 things to the houses when he wanted to move to Zenica.
10 He offered me a cow in return. I took it but then I
11 returned it to him when -- after the liberation, and
12 the same applied to another of my neighbours and he
13 called me by telephone, he said he had nothing to eat
14 because we could not sow because of the war conditions
15 and his name was Safet (phoen), and we had some potato
16 and we shared potatoes, he asked us whether we had some
17 food, and this also applied to cigarettes and some food
18 that I had in my pocket and I would give them when I
19 was on duty, especially to the people that I knew
20 because they would approach me and ask me if I had
21 something to give to them.
22 Q. Tell us, Mr. Juric, whether these people had
23 some health problems.
24 A. As far as I remember, no, and those who had
25 problems had the right to medical assistance.
1 Q. Do you personally know or do you remember
2 whether some of those people who were up there
3 temporarily, whether they had been seriously ill?
4 A. I can't remember anything of the sort because
5 I was there until 25th of April, 1993, when I was
6 wounded, and I took a sick leave because I was wounded
7 while on duty.
8 Q. Do you know perhaps something, whether these
9 people who were accommodated in this building, that the
10 army would come and take them out for labour duty; do
11 you know anything about that?
12 A. Yes, I know. When it was necessary, the army
13 would come and take them, they would take a certain
14 number of people according to a list, and when they
15 completed their labour obligation, they would return
16 them to the same building.
17 Q. Do you know, since you lived in the area,
18 whether other people from the Busovaca area had labour
20 A. Yes. All the people, including Croats who
21 could not fight, had to go trench-digging on the
22 frontline as part of the civilian defence. It was
23 their labour duty, and they had to go. There was no
24 way out of it.
25 Q. Tell us, Mr. Juric, why was it necessary at
1 the time?
2 A. It was necessary to defend the area. It was
4 Q. To consolidate the frontline?
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Do you remember whether, when they were
7 returned, the people, when they were returned from
8 labour duty, whether some of them would be injured or
9 that some of them would be missing?
10 A. I wouldn't -- I did not see anything of the
11 sort, that somebody would be injured, and I don't know
12 whether somebody was missing because I had no records.
13 Q. I understand that you were not connected with
14 that, but did you hear something of the sort?
15 A. No, I haven't.
16 Q. Tell us, Mr. Juric, did you hear that
17 somebody would escape from labour duty or that somebody
18 escaped from the Kaonik facility?
19 A. They were instances, I heard, that some
20 people fled, but as for the facility that we secured,
21 nobody had escaped.
22 Q. You also mentioned that the civilians from
23 the surrounding villages who were brought to Kaonik or
24 who arrived there themselves sometimes sought medical
25 help; is that correct?
1 A. Most probably, yes.
2 Q. Did you personally take them for such
4 A. No, I haven't.
5 Q. Did you see that somebody from the medical
6 centre would arrive at Kaonik; do you know what it is?
7 A. No, I can't tell you precisely because I was
8 on duty mostly during the night, so I had no contacts
9 with such people.
10 Q. You also said, Mr. Juric, that in Kaonik,
11 that you stayed there until the 25th of April, 1993.
12 Did I remember correctly?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why do you remember that date?
15 A. Because I was wounded on that day.
16 Q. How did it happen?
17 A. I was on duty, fighting was in progress, and
18 a shell hit the area outside the building, and I was
19 hit by a piece of a shell and another person who was
20 with me was also hit.
21 Q. What happened after that?
22 A. After that, Mr. Zlatko came up there, he saw
23 us, he took us in his car to Busovaca, to the
24 ambulance, I was taken to Bila, and the other person,
25 after seeking medical attention, went home, and I
1 stayed at Bila after which point I went home.
2 Q. Are you referring to the Nova Bila hospital,
3 aren't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You then did not return to Kaonik?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did, on that occasion, some of the Muslim
8 civilians, were they injured?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know that any one of them was injured
11 during the first half of 1993 in Kaonik?
12 A. No, not that I know of.
13 Q. Mr. Juric, you mentioned Zlatko Aleksovski.
14 When did you meet him first?
15 A. I met him when I arrived there on 1st of
16 March, and I knew that he arrived there at the end of
17 January or beginning of February.
18 Q. Would you recognise Mr. Aleksovski if you saw
19 him again?
20 A. Certainly. He is sitting -- the gentleman
21 down there, Mr. Zlatko.
22 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness
23 was pointing to the Defendant as the person he knew by
24 the name of Zlatko Aleksovski.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, I'm
1 interrupting you, and I'm sorry for that, but I think
2 it is important that we now take a recess.
3 Twenty-minute break.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.00 noon
5 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you may
8 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Lordships.
9 Q. Mr. Juric, let us continue our conversation.
10 I asked you, let me just remind you, that you met
11 Mr. Aleksovski the first time and you said it was
12 roughly about the time that you came to Kaonik sometime
13 in March 1993; is that correct?
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter remarks
15 that the witness said nothing.
16 MR. MIKULICIC:
17 Q. Mr. Juric, could you tell us, how did this
18 meeting with Mr. Aleksovski come about?
19 A. Well, it came about because I was posted
20 there, as I was on duty, and he was also there as the
21 prison warden, and we were down there, we were on duty,
22 so there was contact between us, and that is how we
24 Q. When you met him, I mean Mr. Aleksovski, and
25 later, do you remember how he was dressed?
1 A. Well, sometimes he wore a uniform, sometimes
2 civilian clothes.
3 Q. He had no insignia of any kind, no ranks of
4 any kind. What uniform was that? Was it camouflage or
5 some other uniform?
6 A. Well, no, that ordinary, the plain army
8 Q. Do you remember if, at that time, some other
9 inhabitants in the municipality of Busovaca wore at
10 times parts of the military uniform?
11 A. Yes. Those who were committed, those --
12 they'd wear uniforms. The majority of them did not
13 have uniforms.
14 Q. Do you know if Mr. Aleksovski was a member of
15 your military unit?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know if he was a member of any
18 military unit at all?
19 A. No, I don't know that.
20 Q. What was Mr. Aleksovski's attitude to you? I
21 mean, how did he treat you, the guards?
22 A. He treated us in a very correct manner, very
24 Q. Did you notice how he treated prisoners, the
25 interned Muslims there?
1 A. Correctly, likewise.
2 Q. Could you please clarify, what do you mean
3 when you say "Correctly?"
4 A. Well, I can clarify it and I would even
5 recommend it to -- if they asked for anything to be of
6 help, if we had a cigarette or something to offer to
7 them, if they asked for some firewood, to allow them to
8 bring it in; if, after a while, they would ask to go to
9 the toilet, to let them do it, in that sense, and that
10 is what I consider correct attitude.
11 Q. Do you know, Mr. Juric, if Mr. Aleksovski
12 forbade those persons who were accommodated there be
13 extended whatever kind of services, of course, within
14 the framework of possibilities?
15 A. No, he never prohibited anything, at least as
16 far as I know.
17 Q. But did it seem to you -- what was the
18 impression you had? Did Mr. Aleksovski want to help
19 those people and make it easier for them insofar as it
20 was possible for him?
21 A. Yes, he did, within, of course, his powers.
22 Q. You mentioned that you had been wounded
23 because within that facility that you guarded, not far
24 from you, a shell fell?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know where this shell was fired from?
2 A. Well, from the positions of the B and H army,
3 Miladini, Jelinak, somewhere from those sides.
4 Q. Did it happen only once or several times?
5 A. Several times, many times.
6 Q. Was anyone else wounded apart from you?
7 A. Yes, yes. Three, three more were wounded.
8 Q. Who were they? Were they prisoners or ...
9 A. Those were the guards, those who were
10 guarding the prison, and I know the names of all of
11 them. There were Lukin Niko, Ivo Begovic, a certain
12 Ivica Skaro, and all three of them were wounded.
13 Q. Do you know if any one of them, of the
14 prisoners, of those interned civilians, were any
16 A. Not that I know of.
17 Q. How far from Kaonik was that position that
18 you assumed that the shell came from, the Muslim side,
19 how far would it be?
20 A. Well, as the crow flies, perhaps 1.000, 1.500
21 metres, perhaps.
22 Q. So would it be correct to say that the
23 position of the Kaonik facility at different intervals
24 of time could be hit, that is, it was within the range
25 of the Muslim fire?
1 A. Yes, of course.
2 Q. Mr. Juric, you grew up in that area and lived
3 in the area. Was there a part of Busovaca, was there a
4 locality in the municipality of Busovaca, which at that
5 time was not within the range of the Muslim fire?
6 A. No, there was not a single locality, a single
7 place, which was outside the range. They were all
8 within the range and they were all shelled.
9 Q. Do you also mean the town of Busovaca?
10 A. The town itself, yes, shells hit the town
11 itself and there were people killed.
12 Q. Does it also mean villages around the town of
14 A. The villages around it, yes, the adjoining
15 villages, certainly.
16 Q. Mr. Juric, you said that the Kaonik facility
17 was formerly a JNA barracks. In the territory of the
18 municipality of Busovaca, was there some other facility
19 where a district military prison could be organised or
20 where a large number of people could be accommodated?
21 Was there any facility of sufficiently large size?
22 A. No, no. There wasn't.
23 Q. Does that mean that the Kaonik facility was
24 the only such facility in the municipality of Busovaca?
25 A. The only one where those people could be
1 accommodated. There was another army facility in a
2 place called Draga, but only the army, the army of the
3 former Yugoslavia, was -- and they were there.
4 Q. When the army of the former Yugoslavia left,
5 who was in the Draga barracks?
6 A. The HVO army.
7 Q. So Draga facility was the barracks of the HVO
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Mr. Juric, you have lived a long time in the
11 area and you were also there throughout the armed
12 conflict; is that correct?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. Did you ever meet a soldier with HV insignia?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Did you ever see a soldier with some other
17 insignia apart from HVO insignia?
18 A. I only saw the military police and soldiers
19 in the army with the HVO insignia.
20 Q. You mentioned that your house was in the
21 village of Kaonik, about a thousand metres away from
22 the Kaonik facility. Did a shell hit the front of your
24 A. Yes, among the houses there, there was a
25 shell which hit the ground there.
1 Q. Was anyone wounded on that occasion?
2 A. No. No, because we were all in shelters.
3 Q. Mr. Juric, you said that you were a metal
4 worker by profession, but you also can -- you are a
5 handyman too; you can do some small repairs.
6 A. Yes. Well, yes, I can.
7 Q. Did you use those skills in the Kaonik
9 A. Well, if need arose, yes, I maintained the
10 water supply, and there were some instances when the
11 water supply system, that is, supplying water to the
12 prison, to the barracks, to our village, that pipeline
13 is quite old, so pipes would burst.
14 Q. And then you would mend them.
15 A. And then I went, yes, to mend them.
16 Q. So if I understood you well, Mr. Juric, you
17 tried in whatever way possible to help that supplies be
19 A. Yes, in every way possible, and even during
20 the conflict, if it was possible to mend the supply --
21 if it was possible in order to prevent any infections,
22 diseases or whatever.
23 Q. That is something that I was going to ask
25 A. No, no, no. Fortunately, there were none.
1 Q. Do you know whether supplies were sometimes
2 difficult, that they were not normal?
3 A. You bet. But as I've said, we always tried
4 to do all that we could in order to mend, to repair,
5 and to normalise the situation, let me tell you, as an
6 inhabitant of the municipality of Busovaca, as an
7 inhabitant of the village of Kaonik.
8 Q. So during the conflict in the former half of
9 1993, did older population in the area live in the same
10 living conditions, same supply conditions, or were some
11 better off and others worse off?
12 A. By and large, they all lived under equal
13 living conditions.
14 Q. Does that apply also to Kaonik villages?
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Mr. Juric. We
17 have no further questions.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda, it is your
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Juric.
22 Mr. Juric, you have said to this court you
23 are presently living in Kaonik, are you?
24 A. I live in Kaonik now.
25 Q. Before that, you lived in Busovaca. You were
1 born in the village of Hrasno in Busovaca where you
2 lived for some time, and then for a while you also went
3 to Zenica, after which you returned to Kaonik where you
4 presently live?
5 A. I was born in the village of Hrasno, I live
6 in the municipality of Busovaca, and I only worked in
7 Zenica, I only worked there and commuted between Zenica
8 and Busovaca.
9 Q. You said you worked in the metal industry in
11 A. Zenica Steelworks, yes, heavy industry.
12 Q. Having lived in Busovaca a lifetime, within
13 the municipality of Busovaca a lifetime, you knew most
14 of the people living in that municipality?
15 A. Busovaca.
16 Q. Yes, I meant Busovaca municipality.
17 A. Well, you could say I did, yes. I knew most
18 of the people of my generation.
19 Q. There was a time you said you were posted as
20 a guard in the Kaonik camp, in the Kaonik prison, from
21 the 1st of March, 1993.
22 A. Yes, true.
23 Q. During that time, you remember there were
24 lots of Bosniaks who were brought to Kaonik prison from
25 the surrounding villages from the municipality of
2 A. Well, I couldn't tell how many people were
3 brought to the facility exactly, they were being
4 brought in groups, so I couldn't give you an accurate
6 Q. How many groups were brought in, as far as
7 you remember?
8 A. In groups, at least when I was on duty, there
9 were big groups of ten or fifteen. Depends.
10 Q. Who would bring them to the camp?
11 A. Who they were brought by? The military. By
12 the military.
13 Q. By which military were they being brought to
14 the camp?
15 A. HVO.
16 Q. As far as you were aware -- you knew some of
17 those people that were brought by the HVO military to
18 Kaonik camp?
19 A. Yes, I did know. Yes, I did know people.
20 Yes, I did know those people who were brought in.
21 Q. As far as you know, those people who were
22 brought in were good citizens of the community to which
23 you belonged? The community of Busovaca, I mean.
24 A. Doubtlessly, doubtlessly. They were decent
25 people. They were being brought only for their
1 protection because fighting was going on.
2 Q. You said you were sufficiently -- you said
3 that guards, together with you, how many other guards
4 were on duty at the Kaonik camp?
5 A. Two per shift.
6 Q. Two per shift. And you belonged to the
7 Domobran unit?
8 A. Yes, yes. That unit was called Domobran unit
9 because it was an older generation of men.
10 Q. ... in the Domobran unit as far as you were
11 concerned? Who was the immediate superior to whom you
12 would report?
13 A. Our deputy commander was my predecessor, as
14 the witness, Bagovic (sic), he was the one who decided
15 who would be on duty when and who posted us.
16 Q. You mean the witness who testified before
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you're referring particularly to the
20 witness Batinic, not Bagovic.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake. I'm
23 MR. MEDDEGODA:
24 Q. How long was the shift of guard duty?
25 A. Two hours.
1 Q. Where would you be normally detailed for
3 A. By the facility, by the facility next to the
4 facility, outside.
5 Q. When you say "next to the facility," what did
6 the facility comprise of?
7 A. The facility was made of bricks and the roof
8 and construction materials. What else could it be?
9 Q. I know that. How many buildings comprised
10 the facility? That's my question to you.
11 A. Only one building there where those people
12 were, in that facility, where the Muslims were, there
13 was only one building there.
14 Q. Were you on duty inside the building, or were
15 you on duty outside that building?
16 A. Outside. Outside the building. Outside, not
18 Q. Were there other buildings within the Kaonik
19 prison barracks facility, as far as you know?
20 A. There were other buildings, there were other
21 buildings there. Those we found after the JNA army.
22 There were a few warehouses, barracks where the
23 soldiers were quartered, canteen and the like.
24 Q. This building that you're talking of where
25 you were on duty outside, how far is it from the main
1 gate, from the main entrance to the camp premises?
2 A. Some 200 to 300 metres.
3 Q. When you come along the road, are there other
4 buildings that you would pass before you would get to
5 that particular building that you are talking of?
6 A. Yes, I passed by them.
7 Q. You were on duty outside the building -- how
8 many buildings did you have to pass before coming to
9 that particular facility?
10 A. I pulled by two buildings, two buildings, the
11 barracks down there and a smaller one there which was
12 not for that purpose. Nobody could be accommodated
14 Q. By "the barracks," you mean the building with
15 the -- the two-storey building by the gate?
16 A. Yes, the ground floor and one floor. That is
17 the barracks. That is where the soldiers were.
18 Q. You said, Witness, in the course of your
19 testimony a short while ago that there were civilians
20 who voluntarily came and sought shelter in Kaonik.
21 A. Yes, yes. They did.
22 Q. Would you be able to recall or remember any
23 of those persons, the names of those persons who came
24 and voluntarily sought shelter?
25 A. There were Barucija from Skradno who came on
1 their own to get accommodation because there was
2 fighting going on there, so to avoid it, and they had
3 sent their womenfolk before and they had stayed to look
4 after their houses, but when they realised it was
5 dangerous, then they came there to be accommodated
6 somewhere there.
7 Q. Was he the only person who came, as far as
8 you are aware, to take shelter, or do you know others
9 who also sought shelter in Kaonik?
10 A. There were several persons, a number of
11 persons, but I cannot remember their names and their
12 family names. It was some five or six years back.
13 Q. So the only name that you can remember is the
14 name that you just gave?
15 A. Yes, Barucija was the surname, and it was a
16 whole village with that surname, there was a whole
17 village up there in Skradno, a whole village, and they
18 were all Barucijas.
19 Q. Witness, you said you were on duty mostly
20 during the night, your guard shift was in the night?
21 A. Yes, you could say so, mostly.
22 Q. Do you recall -- do you remember what your
23 shift hours were?
24 A. Well, every four hours, off two hours duty
25 and four hours on, and it just depended, you know, how
1 it came out. Sometimes I was there at 8.00, at 10.00,
2 at 12.00, at 2.00 a.m. and so on.
3 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you were -- knew
4 the accused, Mr. Aleksovski?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. You met him for the first time, as you said,
7 the 1st of March, the day you got to Kaonik?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Did you meet him often -- did you often meet
10 him in the camp?
11 A. I don't think it is a camp. I don't see it
12 as a camp. It was a facility. No, he did not go up
13 there among men who were up there. He did not go there
14 very often. He usually spent time at his office.
15 Q. And do you know where his office --
16 A. He would come out and go up there to see
17 us -- to see what we were doing, how we were behaving
19 Q. And on those occasions you would talk to him,
20 no doubt, when he came there?
21 A. If he asked a question, we would tell them.
22 Q. Do you know where his office was?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. And where was that?
25 A. Down there below, below this building. That
1 was also a small building and that is where his office
3 Q. Had you been to that building?
4 A. Well, yes, I dropped by, but I never went
5 into any detail nor did a round of it.
6 Q. Did you drop by to speak to Mr. Aleksovski
7 when you dropped by to that building?
8 A. Only if there was something, if there was
9 some communication to convey or something like that,
10 but otherwise, no.
11 Q. When you had communication to convey to him,
12 you did convey that communication to him?
13 A. If there was a message, then why not?
14 Q. I take it that there would have been
15 instances when he spoke to you and gave you whatever
16 instructions, depending on communications that you gave
17 to him?
18 A. Why, of course, if we talked, he told us to
19 take care, that we look after these people, that
20 nothing happens to them, that nobody comes to ill-treat
21 them, and things like that, to look after them, in that
22 sense, those were the messages, the communications.
23 Q. You said that you helped Mr. Izet Mekic?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Do you remember the circumstances in which
1 you helped Mr. Mekic?
2 A. I remember that he had to go to Zenica
3 voluntarily, I mean, on his own decided and he had to
4 take his belongings and quite a lot of them, so I
5 helped him, you know, in a wheelbarrow, something -- I
6 helped him drive it to the barricade, and he had a cow
7 and he asked me to take over that cow, not to leave it
8 there, and I refused it, I found it embarrassing, but
9 he took that cow and brought it to my place, and I fed
10 this cow until I could, and I sold it and I took the
11 money to him, that is, I sent a message to him, and he
12 came to where one could come to Gavrine Kuce and I gave
13 the man the money I got for his cow.
14 Q. Where was he before Zenica?
15 A. He was from Skradvo.
16 Q. He had been living in Skradvo for a long time
17 before that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Witness, in the camp, do you know of a guard
20 by the name of Zarko Petrovic?
21 A. No. I don't remember.
22 Q. Have you heard the name or have you heard of
23 a guard by the name of Marko Krilic?
24 A. No, no, I don't really know those younger
25 people, especially in a uniform, I don't differentiate
1 between them.
2 Q. And Miro Maric?
3 A. I've heard of a Miro Maric who died. To know
4 him really, no, I did not.
5 Q. What was he in the camp or in the prison
6 facility, as you say it was?
7 A. Well, he was probably down there, a guard or
8 military police or whatever. I'm not sure.
9 Q. Did you also know a person by the name of
10 Goran Medugorac?
11 A. No, I really don't.
12 Q. Would the name Dzemo ring a bell in your
14 A. Dzemo.
15 Q. Dzemo?
16 A. I knew a Dzemo over there at Kaonik who was
17 there, but he also was an HVO soldier for a while.
18 Q. Witness, do you know another person by the
19 same name as you by the name of Stipo Juric who was
20 also a guard in the camp?
21 A. Juric?
22 Q. Juric.
23 A. I know no one but myself.
24 MR. MEDDEGODA: No further questions in
25 cross-examination, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have
2 any additional questions?
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Lordships, we have no
4 additional questions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Juric, the Chamber has
6 no further questions for you. You are finished giving
7 your evidence here. We should like to thank you very
8 much and wish you a pleasant journey back to your
9 country. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Lordships, we worked
13 today at a very accelerated rate. We did not call any
14 other witnesses for today, so that we have no one here
15 for today.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In other words, we have to
17 congratulate ourselves on our good work.
18 We shall adjourn now and resume again at 9.00
19 tomorrow, like today. Thank you very much.
20 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
21 12.57 p.m., to the reconvened on
22 Wednesday, the 1st day of July,
23 1998, at 9.00 a.m.