1. 1 Wednesday, 1st July, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.28 a.m.

    5 (The accused entered court)

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    7 gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth and the

    8 interpreters. Is everybody ready? Thank you.

    9 Today in the courtroom we have Mr. Niko

    10 Lukin. I believe that is the case; is that correct?

    11 Good morning, sir. Can you hear me? You will read the

    12 solemn declaration that will be proffered to you by the

    13 usher. Please read it.

    14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    16 truth.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. You may be

    18 seated.

    19 For the moment, you will be answering the

    20 questions posed to you by Mr. Mikulicic who is present

    21 here. Go ahead, please.

    22 Mr. Mikulicic, the floor is yours


    24 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. Good morning,

  2. 1 Your Honours. Good morning, colleagues. Good morning,

    2 Mr. Lukin.

    3 I am attorney Mikulicic, I represent

    4 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski together with my colleague,

    5 Mr. Joka. I am going to pose you some questions and I

    6 would like you to answer them to the best of your

    7 knowledge.

    8 Are you comfortable, sir?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Mr. Lukin, when were you born?

    11 A. I was born on 26 January, 1932.

    12 Q. Mr. Lukin, what is your ethnic origin?

    13 A. I'm a Croat.

    14 Q. Are you religious?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. What is your religion, sir?

    17 A. Roman Catholic.

    18 Q. Mr. Lukin, where do you live?

    19 A. I live in the village of Hrasno -- sorry, I

    20 was born in the village of Hrasno, and I live in the

    21 village of Cetovic (phoen) in the Busovaca

    22 municipality.

    23 Q. Have you spent all your life in the area of

    24 the Busovaca municipality?

    25 A. Yes, my entire life.

  3. 1 Q. Mr. Lukin, where did you go to school?

    2 A. I went to the elementary school in the

    3 Busovaca municipality, and I continued with my training

    4 in Zenica where I also completed my work career.

    5 Q. Mr. Lukin, what kind of training did you get

    6 in Zenica?

    7 A. When I first started working at Zenica steel

    8 mill, I was first working at a lower-ranking job, and

    9 then through my career, I kept receiving training, so I

    10 passed the first stage and I became highly qualified

    11 worker and then I later became a foreman and I became a

    12 shift chief, and that is the job which I was at on my

    13 retirement.

    14 Q. Where did you work?

    15 A. It was the steel mill at Zenica. It was a

    16 huge steel mill works employing about 23.000 workers.

    17 Q. When did you retire, sir?

    18 A. I retired in early 1989.

    19 Q. Mr. Lukin, what is the state of your health?

    20 A. I have to say that during the war, I had some

    21 troubles. My heart is not quite well, my blood

    22 pressure is unstable.

    23 Q. So you have certain troubles with your heart?

    24 A. Yes, that is correct.

    25 Q. So are you receiving any medication?

  4. 1 A. Yes. I do receive some medication.

    2 Q. Mr. Lukin, did you do your military service?

    3 A. Yes, I did do my military service in the JNA

    4 for two years.

    5 Q. So it was two years. Do you recall where it

    6 was and when it was?

    7 A. Yes, of course. I served in Macedonia

    8 between 1952 and 1954.

    9 Q. After your compulsory military service, did

    10 you receive any military rank?

    11 A. No. After I finished with my military

    12 service, I took a job, I worked for 40 years, and then

    13 I retired.

    14 Q. After completing your military service, were

    15 you a member of any reserve?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Mr. Lukin, you said that you spent all your

    18 life in the Busovaca area, so I would imagine that you

    19 know this area quite well?

    20 A. I was born there and I spent all my life

    21 there.

    22 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall early 1993 when, in

    23 the Busovaca area, in your hometown, a conflict broke

    24 out between the Muslims and the Croats. Do you recall

    25 that?

  5. 1 A. Of course I do.

    2 Q. Do you recall when these conflicts started?

    3 What was the event that marked the beginning of the

    4 conflict in the Busovaca area?

    5 A. I could not recall the exact date, but I

    6 believe it was in early February, somewhere around

    7 there, as far as I recall.

    8 Q. What happened at that time?

    9 A. Bad things happened between ethnic groups.

    10 Muslims and Croats came into conflict, and a lot of

    11 innocent people suffered. In fact, it was only the

    12 innocent people who really came to harm at that time.

    13 Q. Mr. Lukin, during those events, what was your

    14 role? What did you do at that time? You already told

    15 us that you were retired, but did you become involved

    16 in these events?

    17 A. In 1993, maybe in early March, a home guard

    18 detachment was established, and we believed -- we who

    19 were retired, we thought that we should get involved,

    20 so we became home guards and we were involved in

    21 providing security for certain facilities, such as

    22 health centres, schools, and such. And then later on,

    23 as there were not enough fighters and there were not

    24 regular soldiers in the prison -- I don't know how to

    25 call that facility -- then we were assigned to those

  6. 1 duties, to guard those people.

    2 So for a while, I worked there, and during

    3 that period, I had an incident, I sustained a head

    4 injury, and after this injury, I took a sick leave. I

    5 spent several months on this sick leave, and at the end

    6 of this sick leave period, I was reassigned to the

    7 prison. I had nothing to do with the people there, but

    8 I was assigned to a gate through which I would let in

    9 vehicles and people who had permits.

    10 Q. I understand. Mr. Lukin, let's go back to

    11 early March 1993 when you became involved in the home

    12 guard or Domobran company in Busovaca. Were you issued

    13 a uniform at that time?

    14 A. No. The home guards or Domobrans who were

    15 there were not issued any uniforms. We were wearing

    16 our civilian clothes.

    17 Q. How about weapons? Were you issued any

    18 weapons?

    19 A. Well, we were given some weapons. It could

    20 have been -- it could have been weapons from World War

    21 I. It was old rifles, M-48, so it was very old weapons

    22 and we didn't even get any ammunition for it.

    23 Q. Mr. Lukin, our conversation is being

    24 interpreted into English and French, so I would like to

    25 ask you to please talk a bit more slowly.

  7. 1 A. Oh, you mean more slowly? No problem.

    2 Q. Mr. Lukin, you told us that you were a part

    3 of the Domobran company, that you were not issued any

    4 uniform, that you were issued some old weapons for

    5 which you never had any ammunition, and that you were

    6 assigned to secure certain facilities.

    7 A. That's right, certain facilities.

    8 Q. Mr. Lukin, were you also assigned to Kaonik

    9 facility?

    10 A. Yes. I was assigned to the Kaonik facility,

    11 but it was only one building that we were assigned to.

    12 Q. Mr. Lukin, where exactly is your home?

    13 A. My home is about 500 metres away from the

    14 prison.

    15 Q. So in a matter of speaking, we can say that

    16 you are the first neighbour to Kaonik?

    17 A. That is correct. It is 500 metres away and I

    18 could see from my house the gate through which people

    19 came in and out.

    20 Q. Given that you lived there even before the

    21 conflict, can you recall who was using this facility

    22 before the war?

    23 A. Yes. Before the war, it was the army, it was

    24 the JNA which used it, and then in 1991, the army

    25 pulled out, and the facility remained there.

  8. 1 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you happen to know what was the

    2 use of these facilities in Kaonik which was used by the

    3 JNA?

    4 A. Yes. These facilities were full of

    5 ammunition, projectiles, and all kinds of weapons, and

    6 when the war started, this army -- how shall I call it?

    7 -- the JNA, they took everything away that they wanted

    8 and the facilities remained somewhat empty.

    9 Q. So we could say that this was a depot?

    10 A. Yes, you could call them a depot or

    11 warehouses, whatever.

    12 Q. Do you recall when you first came on duty to

    13 Kaonik as a member of the Domobran company for securing

    14 the facility?

    15 A. Yes. I first came there on 15 April, 1993.

    16 That's when I arrived there.

    17 Q. You said -- did you say it was in April,

    18 because you said that you were mobilised in March.

    19 A. Yes, mid-April. On that same month, on 25th

    20 April, 1993, that's when I was wounded.

    21 Q. Mr. Lukin, what exactly was your duty there?

    22 What were you supposed to do?

    23 A. Our task of these Domobrans was to provide

    24 security for this facility to be of service to these

    25 people, to help them go to the toilet, to provide

  9. 1 water, heating, et cetera.

    2 Q. Was your duty to secure the facility from the

    3 outside or were you supposed to be inside?

    4 A. No. We were not supposed to go in at all.

    5 We were just on the outside to make sure that nobody

    6 would approach it or do something there.

    7 Q. You mentioned that there were people in

    8 there. Who were these people there?

    9 A. Those were people from the neighbouring

    10 villages, villagers, and they were kept there for their

    11 own safety, and they were there for a brief period of

    12 time.

    13 Q. Mr. Lukin, you mentioned that these were

    14 villagers from the surrounding villages. Can you

    15 recall which villages these were from which these

    16 people were kept there?

    17 A. Of course. These were my neighbours, so to

    18 speak. They were villages of Skradno, Loncari, and

    19 Strane.

    20 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall whether, in the

    21 immediate vicinity of these villages, there was any

    22 fighting, any armed conflicts?

    23 A. From the areas from which these people came,

    24 and they came there for their own security, that's

    25 exactly where the fighting took place, in these

  10. 1 villages where these -- from where these people were

    2 brought and where they were kept for their own

    3 security.

    4 Q. Mr. Lukin, how were these people

    5 accommodated? Where were they?

    6 A. Well, you see, they were accommodated in a

    7 building there. It used to be a military building, and

    8 then they were put up there.

    9 Q. They were there day and night; right?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did you see what were their conditions there,

    12 where did they sleep? Did they have any blankets, did

    13 they have any stoves?

    14 A. They did have blankets. That was provided.

    15 Mr. Warden saw to it and then later on some stoves were

    16 also put in there so that these premises could be

    17 heated. You can't say that the conditions were very

    18 good, but it was a wartime situation, so that's what it

    19 was.

    20 Q. Mr. Lukin, what were the hygienic conditions

    21 for these people? Where did they go to the toilet?

    22 A. The toilet was near this building. There was

    23 only a short path that separated it from there, and

    24 that's where they went to the toilet.

    25 Q. Were they able to go to the toilet when they

  11. 1 needed to or were there any restrictions there?

    2 A. There were no restrictions there. As far as

    3 that is concerned, we did everything to accommodate

    4 them.

    5 Q. And where did they receive water from?

    6 A. You see, there was a water installation there

    7 which we used to -- which we used as well, and so they

    8 shared that facility with us.

    9 Q. So this was municipal water?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So the surrounding villages used this

    12 waterworks as well as Kaonik?

    13 A. That is correct. The schools, villages, and

    14 also the facility where these people were kept.

    15 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall whether throughout

    16 this period of conflict the supply of water was steady

    17 or were there any interruptions?

    18 A. Well, you see, there were some interruptions

    19 because it was an old installation and so there were

    20 some breakdowns, so -- but if the breakdowns happened,

    21 then they would be repaired, and the supply would be

    22 reinstalled.

    23 Q. What was the food that these civilians were

    24 receiving?

    25 A. The food was being brought there and we all

  12. 1 ate it. Those people who were kept there as well as

    2 those people who guarded them shared the food, and the

    3 food as such, sometimes it was better, sometimes it was

    4 not so good. There were wartime conditions, so

    5 sometimes we didn't have enough food stocks to provide

    6 good food.

    7 Q. How many meals were given every day?

    8 A. There were three meals being given every

    9 day. After a while, the supplies of food diminished,

    10 so we switched to two meals a day.

    11 Q. How about the guards, did they also switch to

    12 two meals a day?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. How was the supply of food and other goods,

    15 like fuel, in the Busovaca area at that time? Was it

    16 regular or not?

    17 A. You couldn't call it regular at all. The

    18 whole area was blocked off for almost six months, so

    19 you couldn't reach the area on a regular basis.

    20 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Lukin, you

    21 said that it was blocked. Do you mean Busovaca was?

    22 A. Yes, it was blocked.

    23 Q. Are you talking about the town of Busovaca or

    24 the wider area?

    25 A. It was a wider area. It also included Vitez

  13. 1 and it included the surrounding areas.

    2 Q. Is it true then that the population of this

    3 area was surrounded and that the communications between

    4 Busovaca and the other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina were

    5 cut off?

    6 A. The only communication line that was not cut

    7 off was Vitez-Busovaca -- between Vitez and Busovaca,

    8 but the entire area of Vitez and Busovaca was cut off.

    9 Q. Mr. Lukin, you lived all your life in the

    10 Busovaca area, and you know this area very well. You

    11 probably know the configuration of the terrain there as

    12 well. Can you tell me, during these wartime events,

    13 was there any location, any spot in the Busovaca area,

    14 where there was no fighting, where there was no

    15 shooting, and there was no shelling?

    16 A. No. Everything in the Busovaca area, all

    17 points within the Busovaca area, were within the

    18 shooting range, so every village, every spot in the

    19 area, was within firing range.

    20 Q. Were any shells -- did any shells ever fall

    21 on the town of Busovaca?

    22 A. You could say that they fell everywhere, that

    23 they were falling at all places.

    24 Q. How about around your house?

    25 A. Of course. And as I said, we were very close

  14. 1 to the prison, and a lot of shells fell there, maybe

    2 the most. A number of houses were actually damaged.

    3 However, luckily, nobody was killed.

    4 Q. Do you know whether there were killed and

    5 injured people in the town of Busovaca and in the other

    6 surrounding areas?

    7 A. Yes, there were quite a few.

    8 Q. How far was the first defensive lines away

    9 from the town of Busovaca and the surrounding villages?

    10 A. They were maybe one to 1.5 kilometres away at

    11 the most, so that these lines were very close of this

    12 area of Busovaca and the surrounding villages.

    13 Q. So this situation was similar in Kaonik?

    14 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

    15 Q. Mr. Lukin, when you came to serve your duty

    16 at the Kaonik facility, did you meet Zlatko Aleksovski?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did you meet him often or just once or twice?

    19 A. Several times. Because I only spent a short

    20 time there, so we only met several times. When we

    21 arrived as Domobrans, he held a meeting with us, and in

    22 this meeting he advised us that we should treat these

    23 people decently and fairly, that these people were

    24 there on a temporary basis, and while they were there,

    25 that they should be treated as well and correct as

  15. 1 possible, and even without that, these people were our

    2 colleagues from work, we travelled, worked with them

    3 for 20 and more years, some of them actually worked in

    4 my department, and so we tried to help them while they

    5 were in this facility. To some of them, we even

    6 brought food, we would bring them cigarettes since they

    7 were our colleagues from work, and I thought that this

    8 would be part of our conscience and we also felt that

    9 this was our duty on a humane basis.

    10 Q. I understand. Speaking of Mr. Aleksovski,

    11 would you recognise him if you saw him today?

    12 A. Of course, I would.

    13 Q. Can you recognise him here in this room?

    14 A. Yes, I do.

    15 Q. Can you tell us where you see him? Where is

    16 he sitting?

    17 A. Mr. Aleksovski is sitting over there.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness

    19 showed in the direction of the accused and identified

    20 him as Zlatko Aleksovski.

    21 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall when you first saw

    22 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski and when you saw him the next

    23 several times, what was he wearing?

    24 A. I saw him wearing civilian clothes several

    25 times and several times wearing a uniform.

  16. 1 Q. What kind of a uniform was it; can you

    2 remember that?

    3 A. It was some kind of a camouflage uniform

    4 without any insignia. Nothing special.

    5 Q. Did he have any rank or any other insignia?

    6 A. No. No insignia.

    7 Q. You mentioned that when you came to provide

    8 security for this facility, Mr. Aleksovski pointed out

    9 to you that with respect to the civilians which you

    10 came to guard at this facility, that you should treat

    11 them fairly and humanely?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did you follow those instructions?

    14 A. Of course. Because it would have been a

    15 shame to behave in any other way. As I said, we

    16 commuted together for a period of years, we worked

    17 together, so it would have been both brutal and

    18 inhumane to behave in any other way.

    19 Q. Mr. Lukin, did you personally see or hear

    20 that these people were mistreated, that these people

    21 were beaten, or somebody would inflict any injuries to

    22 them?

    23 A. While I was there, no such incidents occurred

    24 and nothing of that kind happened.

    25 Q. In your opinion, did these people have enough

  17. 1 food? Did they have such conditions that in the given

    2 wartime circumstances, they could function normally?

    3 A. Listen. Given that it was wartime, you

    4 couldn't describe the conditions as normal. I'm not

    5 sure, though, that they could have been provided with

    6 better conditions than there were at that time.

    7 Q. You said that you know the Busovaca area. Do

    8 you know whether there is another similar facility in

    9 the Busovaca area, similar to Kaonik, where these

    10 people could have been accommodated?

    11 A. No. There was a facility in Draga, but I

    12 don't think that these people could have been

    13 accommodated there as well as in Kaonik.

    14 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you know how these people found

    15 themselves in Kaonik? In other words, who brought them

    16 there?

    17 A. I was not present when these people were

    18 brought there. I just found them there. Who brought

    19 them there and how, that, I could not tell you.

    20 Q. You mentioned that, according to you, since

    21 these people came from the surrounding villages where

    22 the fighting had taken place, that they were put up

    23 there for their own security; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes, that is correct, because it was the

    25 safest place for them.

  18. 1 Q. Do you know, did you see or hear that people

    2 from these surrounding villages would come to Kaonik

    3 themselves in order to feel safe there?

    4 A. There were cases where people would come

    5 there because they felt safe there.

    6 Q. Do you know any of the people who came on

    7 their own free will there, to stay there? Do you know

    8 any names?

    9 A. No, I could not tell you any names, but I

    10 know that there were such people.

    11 Q. Do you perhaps know from which village?

    12 A. From the village of Skradno.

    13 Q. Mr. Lukin, while working there at Kaonik

    14 providing security, did you see any people who were

    15 there, that they became ill in any way, any kind of

    16 health problems, skin problems, or any kind of disease?

    17 A. There were no such cases where people needed

    18 any medical attention.

    19 Q. Mr. Lukin, can you tell us whether the Kaonik

    20 facility itself was sometimes under fire, that is,

    21 shelled?

    22 A. Yes, frequently.

    23 Q. To your knowledge, did it ever happen that

    24 either civilians or anyone who was there at that time

    25 was injured from any of these incidents?

  19. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. And do you know whether any of the guards

    3 were injured? You said that you yourself were injured.

    4 A. Yes. There were four of us among guards who

    5 were injured.

    6 Q. So there were four. How were you injured and

    7 where did it happen?

    8 A. This happened immediately next to the

    9 facility where we were on duty. We were right there in

    10 order to provide security, and it was evening, it was

    11 probably about 8.00 p.m., and we were nearby, and a

    12 shell fell on a tree and then I sustained a head

    13 injury, and a colleague of mine was injured -- had his

    14 genitals injured, and the others were injured in other

    15 parts of their body.

    16 Q. What happened after your injuries?

    17 A. When we were injured, Mr. Aleksovski put us

    18 in a car and drove us to the health centre in order to

    19 give us medical attention. There, at the health

    20 centre, they did what they could, and then what they

    21 couldn't, because they couldn't do everything, they

    22 took us to the Bila hospital and there they treated us

    23 and then released us to our homes.

    24 Q. And this is how you finished with your duty

    25 in providing security at Kaonik?

  20. 1 A. Exactly in that way.

    2 Q. Mr. Lukin, can you tell us, while you were in

    3 Kaonik, whether people, these civilians from the

    4 surrounding villages, that these people were taken out

    5 of Kaonik in order to provide some kind of labour?

    6 A. Yes. The people who were there were

    7 occasionally taken out to perform some tasks. I

    8 believe it was trench-digging or something like that.

    9 And there were other people who were taken to dig these

    10 trenches and dugouts, whatever you call them. Also my

    11 brother was taken there, and there were some people of

    12 Orthodox religion who were taken there. So whenever

    13 there was a need to do such a thing, everybody was

    14 taken there.

    15 Q. If I understood you correctly, you mentioned

    16 people from the area. Now, when you say that, are you

    17 referring to the HVO personnel as well?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And they would come and ask that people be

    20 taken. So if I understand you correctly, they would

    21 come to Kaonik, they would ask for a certain number of

    22 people, they would take them out; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Mr. Lukin, did you notice, when these people

    25 would come back to Kaonik, that they were injured or

  21. 1 did you see on them traces of any injuries or any

    2 disease or anything?

    3 A. No, I saw no such person. I saw them coming

    4 back tired but not injured or sick.

    5 Q. Mr. Lukin, you mentioned that this labour

    6 duty, digging or whatever, other kind of work, was not

    7 the sole duty of the people who were there but also

    8 people who were outside and who were not involved in

    9 the defence.

    10 A. As I said, my brother who is retired, also

    11 went on that duty.

    12 Q. How old is your brother?

    13 A. He's two years younger than I am. He was

    14 born in 1935, so he is now 63.

    15 Q. How about your son?

    16 A. He's young. He was born in 1958, he fell

    17 ill, he was not able to go to the defence line, so he

    18 had work duty and he went to dig on a daily basis. Not

    19 only my son, but there were others who did so.

    20 Q. Mr. Lukin, how was this organised? Would

    21 somebody come for your brother and your son to go out

    22 to this work duty?

    23 A. Yes, the military police would come and they

    24 would take those people there, wherever the work was

    25 needed, and after that, they would return them home.

  22. 1 Q. Did you talk to your brother and your son on

    2 which locations they performed those work duties?

    3 Where did they dig?

    4 A. Yes, I talked to them. They dug at Strane,

    5 Podyele, they dug up at the Kula region. They were

    6 several places and they worked there.

    7 Q. You mentioned Strane, Kula, Podyele. Were

    8 these places near the defence line or were these places

    9 away from the defence lines?

    10 A. Wherever these people worked, that was always

    11 close to these lines.

    12 Q. Do you know why they had to work there? What

    13 did they do there?

    14 A. I don't think we understood each other. Who

    15 are you referring to?

    16 Q. I'm referring to your brother and your son.

    17 A. The military needed these lines fortified so

    18 that they would not fall, so that the people down in

    19 Kaonik and Busovaca would not be threatened. In other

    20 words, in short, that these lines would not fall.

    21 Q. I understand. Do you know, Mr. Lukin,

    22 whether your brother or your son, on those occasions,

    23 would see or whether they told you that some people

    24 were injured, killed, or similar during the labour

    25 duty?

  23. 1 A. I talked to them, but to my knowledge and as

    2 far as they told me, they saw no such incidents.

    3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Lukin, whether during the

    4 labour duty, whether these people, for instance, your

    5 son and your brother and others, whether they received

    6 food?

    7 A. Well, if they were taken out by night, they

    8 did not receive any food at night, but they would

    9 receive food in the morning, so that they would be able

    10 to work.

    11 Q. Do you know why it was necessary to go during

    12 the night?

    13 A. Well, you know, the lines were targeted, and

    14 it could be then seen during the day that people were

    15 digging and were in greater danger, and that is why it

    16 was decided to do the work duty during the night, in

    17 order to reduce the danger to the people who were

    18 involved in the digging of trenches.

    19 Q. I see. Mr. Lukin, you now live at home, you

    20 are retired.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Do you have any connection with the Domobran

    23 company in which you served? Does it still exist?

    24 A. No, it has been dissolved.

    25 Q. Do you have any connections with any other

  24. 1 military unit?

    2 A. No.

    3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. Thank you,

    4 Mr. Lukin. The Defence has no further questions.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, you have the

    6 floor.

    7 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

    8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lukin.

    9 A. Good morning.

    10 Q. Now, Mr. Lukin, I think that the Domobran

    11 unit was not actually part of the HVO itself, it was

    12 part of the municipal defence forces and, as such, came

    13 under the authority of the mayor; is that right, of

    14 Busovaca?

    15 A. I would not agree with you because the

    16 Domobran regiment was not part of the HVO.

    17 Q. I think there may have been -- you may have

    18 misunderstood me. That was the point I was making.

    19 Domobran wasn't part of the HVO, it was part of the --

    20 it came under the authority of the municipality --

    21 A. No, they were not.

    22 Q. It was part of the municipal forces, under

    23 the mayor of Busovaca?

    24 A. Well, I don't know what the mayor would have

    25 to do with that. Well, it was the commander of the

  25. 1 regiment who was in charge, and the mayor, to my

    2 knowledge, had nothing to do with the Domobran

    3 regiment.

    4 Q. Tell me, what part of the government, if I

    5 can call it that, of the regional government, did it

    6 report to? It must have been part of some structure,

    7 surely. It can't have just went to the commander and

    8 stopped there.

    9 A. As far as I know, I know that they had their

    10 own commander or the person in charge, and that there

    11 was somebody else who was in charge, I don't know that.

    12 Q. Tell us this: When you joined the Domobran

    13 unit, did you go to the local municipal building in

    14 Busovaca or how was it that you became part of it? How

    15 did you manage to join up in the Domobran?

    16 A. In order to join the Domobrans, we were

    17 invited one day, all of us who were expected to

    18 contribute, in case the security was threatened, the

    19 security of the people, and it was then decided so, and

    20 we were then deployed to serve in the way that I have

    21 already described.

    22 Q. Now tell me, who invited you and where did

    23 you go when you received the invitation?

    24 A. When I was invited, I went to a local school

    25 where we received our tasks to secure the facilities

  26. 1 and the school.

    2 Q. Well, when you went to the local school, who

    3 addressed you? Who spoke to you there?

    4 A. When I went to the school, I talked to our

    5 commander who was in charge of the Domobrans.

    6 Q. Now, did you receive notice to go to the

    7 school by some written form of notice?

    8 A. Yes, yes. I received a written notice, not

    9 only myself, but all the others, and we were invited to

    10 come and be deployed where the need arose.

    11 Q. And the written piece of paper that you

    12 received, did it have any stamps or markers or it to

    13 indicate where it had come from?

    14 A. Well, there was a seal, but I did not attach

    15 any importance to it, what kind of a seal or a stamp it

    16 was and what was written on it.

    17 Q. I take it it wasn't the seal of the HVO.

    18 That you seem sure of.

    19 A. Well, it shouldn't have been the HVO because

    20 it was a separate role of the Domobran regiment.

    21 Q. When you were in the camp, did you know a

    22 guard that had the name, I think it's a nickname of

    23 Pisar, P-I-S-A-R?

    24 A. No, I don't know any person by that name.

    25 Q. When you went to the Kaonik facility, to the

  27. 1 prison, it was your duty, was it not, to prevent people

    2 from coming into the prison as well as to prevent

    3 people from escaping from the prison?

    4 A. Well, you could say so, to prevent people

    5 from entering and from getting out in order to prevent

    6 them from being harassed or exposed to any danger.

    7 Q. During the time that you were there, were you

    8 successful in keeping people in the prison; in other

    9 words, did anyone escape from the prison when you were

    10 there, at the time you were there?

    11 A. No, nobody escaped, but I can also tell you

    12 that I was there for a short time, just ten days.

    13 Q. Yes, well, we can only talk about that time.

    14 And during the same period of time, were you successful

    15 in keeping people out who were not wanted or who

    16 weren't permitted to go into the prison?

    17 A. Well, there was no need to prevent anyone

    18 because there were no attempts of such kind, that

    19 somebody would reach those people and do them any harm.

    20 Q. Now, I take it that the -- it wasn't terribly

    21 difficult or it mustn't have been thought to have been

    22 terribly difficult to keep people out or to keep people

    23 in, if necessary, because you had an old weapon and no

    24 ammunition which wouldn't have been very effective, I

    25 take it, if you had come to a confrontation?

  28. 1 A. The weapons should not have been there as far

    2 as the fear was concerned that somebody could harm

    3 them, but there was -- I mean, the threat or coming to

    4 any danger was not at question at all. No such

    5 situation could have happened.

    6 Q. So far as you know, there was no threat to

    7 the prisoners from the outside, at least during the

    8 period of time that you were there?

    9 A. No, no, no such threat existed as far as

    10 those people were concerned.

    11 Q. You spoke of having a system, I think, of

    12 permits for people to come into the prison. Can you

    13 tell me about that? What were these permits? Were

    14 they in written form?

    15 A. Well, they were not in written forms, but

    16 people would come of their own free volition because

    17 they believed it was the securest place for them to be.

    18 Q. I'm not talking about civilians, I'm not

    19 talking about Muslim civilian people, I'm talking about

    20 other people that would come to the gate in order to

    21 come into the prison. I think you said in your

    22 evidence that they would have permits.

    23 A. Yes. Yes, that was when I was not in charge

    24 of security but when I was at the gate, then people

    25 would arrive with some sort of permits, and on the

  29. 1 basis of those permits and the permit (sic) that was

    2 given of the head foreman of the shift, we could allow

    3 them to get in.

    4 Q. So the permit was issued by somebody in the

    5 prison itself?

    6 A. No, no. People would come from the outside;

    7 for instance, the Red Cross people, they would come to

    8 the gate and then consult with the people at the gate,

    9 and with the approval of the warden, of his assistants,

    10 and they were allowed to go and visit the prison.

    11 Q. So it wasn't always in written form, it was

    12 sometimes the warden saying, "Yes, that person can come

    13 in"?

    14 A. Well, if they were already there, I mean, if

    15 they worked there regularly, they didn't need written

    16 permission.

    17 Q. No, I'm talking of people who weren't regular

    18 guards in the prison, I'm talking of people who weren't

    19 regular guards. In those cases, are you saying to me

    20 that the permit for them to enter was a written

    21 document that was signed by Mr. Aleksovski, or was it

    22 sometimes a case of him simply saying, "Yes, those

    23 persons can come in"?

    24 A. Yes, they would talk over the telephone, and

    25 after his -- after the approval, the person would be

  30. 1 let in to enter the facility up there.

    2 Q. Now, was it always Mr. Aleksovski who had to

    3 give approval, or was there somebody else authorised to

    4 approve a person's entry into the facility?

    5 A. Well, you know, sometimes Mr. Aleksovski

    6 would not be there, he had his aides, and the persons

    7 who were in charge of shifts, shift leaders, and they

    8 would give oral approval that someone should be let in

    9 up in the prison area.

    10 Q. Do you remember ever an occasion happening

    11 when Mr. Aleksovski said to you, "No, that person is

    12 not to come in?" Do you ever remember that happening

    13 at all at any stage that you were there?

    14 A. No, I don't remember anything like that

    15 happening, and there were no such cases.

    16 Q. I take it, though, however, if Mr. Aleksovski

    17 had said to you, "No, that person's not to come in,"

    18 you would have then refused entry for that person to

    19 come through. That would have been part of your job.

    20 A. Yes, certainly, yes. It would be so.

    21 Q. When was it that you said that you first came

    22 to the camp.

    23 A. I said that I arrived there to the camp on

    24 the 15th of April, 1993.

    25 Q. And I think you said in your evidence that

  31. 1 sometime after you arrived, that the stoves were

    2 installed in order for the people to keep warm. Do you

    3 know how long after it was that you arrived that these

    4 stoves were installed?

    5 A. When I arrived there, the stoves were already

    6 there. They were already installed in the facilities.

    7 Q. So you didn't see them actually installed?

    8 A. No, because when I got there, they were

    9 already there. They were already installed.

    10 Q. Now, you spoke of Muslim civilian prisoners

    11 going to use the toilet facilities. I take it these

    12 were the Muslim civilian prisoners who were in the

    13 hangar.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You would guard them as they would use the

    16 toilet, I take it?

    17 A. Well, we were beside them while they were

    18 completing their -- while they were going to the WC, we

    19 would be there, and then they would be returned to the

    20 building.

    21 Q. And when you actually escorted them to the

    22 toilet and back again, you would be armed, you'd have

    23 whatever arms that you had, even though you might not

    24 have had any ammunition --

    25 A. Yes, we had some arms that I already

  32. 1 mentioned, you know, the arms from World War I and that

    2 we had no ammunition for those arms.

    3 Q. Did you ever get any ammunition for these

    4 arms?

    5 A. After some time, we did receive a few

    6 bullets, but it was a very, very few.

    7 Q. I just want to ask you some questions about

    8 the villages surrounding the area of Kaonik that you

    9 know about anyway.

    10 I take it that in those sort of villages that

    11 surround the Kaonik facility, they're not all supplied

    12 with running water through a main system of water, are

    13 they? I take it a lot of the villages have wells.

    14 A. Well, some did not. It is true. For

    15 instance, the village of Skradno had water supply while

    16 Strane and Loncari were not part of the municipal water

    17 supply system.

    18 Q. In those cases they would have had either a

    19 village well or a well attached to the houses, the

    20 individual houses?

    21 A. Well, you know, the people who were there,

    22 they took water from the same water supply system that

    23 we had, the people who lived there, and they used the

    24 same water, the people who were accommodated in these

    25 facilities. But people who lived up there in the

  33. 1 villages, they had their own wells.

    2 Q. And, of course, people who lived near the

    3 Lasva River would have had access to those water

    4 purposes as well, wouldn't they?

    5 A. You know, the Lasva River, the water there is

    6 not potable, so you can use it to wash your clothes and

    7 things like that, but not to drink.

    8 Q. And also in these villages, people would have

    9 had animals, like cows and chicks and hens and things

    10 of that nature, that would be very typical in the

    11 surrounding villages?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And they would have had orchards --

    14 A. Well, you know, people from those villages

    15 had livestock, they had cows and sheep and hens, and

    16 all sorts of livestock, and we, as neighbours, did take

    17 care about their livestock while they were away, and

    18 there were many such instances, and I was one of those

    19 who took care about the livestock of one of my

    20 neighbours until the situation normalised, when the

    21 armed conflict stopped.

    22 Q. And this neighbour who you looked after the

    23 livestock for was a Muslim neighbour?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. I take it also that people in these villages

  34. 1 surrounding this area had little vegetable gardens as

    2 well which they would plant food in?

    3 A. Yes, they had.

    4 Q. Yet I think you spoke in your evidence about

    5 there being a time when there was a great shortage of

    6 food.

    7 A. Yes, there was a time with great shortages of

    8 food.

    9 Q. And this was a shortage of food in the Kaonik

    10 prison and with the army and feeding the soldiers,

    11 wasn't it?

    12 A. Well, no, nobody had at that time, and the

    13 people who were accommodated there, the army and

    14 anybody else, because we all had small rations because

    15 the area was blocked and it was impossible to ensure

    16 food supplies that would be sufficient to feed the

    17 civilians, the army, and the rest of the people there.

    18 Q. But when you went home to your house, which I

    19 understand was nearby, you would have had livestock

    20 and --

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. -- you would have had a vegetable garden?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So you may not have been able to get all of

    25 the food you wanted, but you had, I take it, sufficient

  35. 1 food at your home?

    2 A. Well, at one time, yes, but there was a time

    3 when that was not true because there was a time of

    4 shortage, and I did take some food from my own family

    5 supplies to bring it to someone -- some food to my

    6 friends, if I may call them so, and we shared the

    7 little food that we had.

    8 Q. So, in fact, you had sufficient food at home

    9 to be able to actually bring food to the prison because

    10 of the official government supply of food was in short

    11 supply?

    12 A. Well, I said that we did not have enough food

    13 and nobody else had, for that matter. But as far as

    14 the humane relationship is concerned, people realised

    15 that those who had food should bring it to those who

    16 hadn't, so that's how we shared the little food that we

    17 had.

    18 Q. And the people that didn't have it were the

    19 people in the prison?

    20 A. Well, all of us did not have enough food. I

    21 said so. And while we were in prison, everybody had

    22 the same rations.

    23 Q. Now, these good people that were in prison,

    24 these Muslim neighbours of yours, they weren't there

    25 because they were vicious criminals or anything of that

  36. 1 nature, were they? They were good people.

    2 A. Well, you could say so, yes, but because of

    3 the circumstances, the people had to be brought there

    4 for their own security and for a short period of time.

    5 Q. They didn't come there voluntarily, though.

    6 You know that, don't you? It's not as though the whole

    7 lot of them just --

    8 A. I don't. I don't know. I can't tell you

    9 because I said that I came later when they were already

    10 there. Whether they came there of their own free will

    11 or whether they were brought there, I can't tell you.

    12 Q. Well, would it surprise you if I told you

    13 that there's been evidence in these proceedings that

    14 these people were brought there by the military police

    15 under force?

    16 A. I'm not familiar with that so I cannot talk

    17 to that.

    18 Q. I take it that the Croatian people in these

    19 surrounding villages, they stayed in their villages,

    20 did they, during the course of the war, those who

    21 weren't engaged in fighting?

    22 A. Some villagers did and some villagers did

    23 not, and there were Croats who were expelled from

    24 certain villages too.

    25 Q. Yes, yes. I understand that. The Croats

  37. 1 that were expelled from certain villages, they went as

    2 refugees to other Croatian villages, did they?

    3 A. They went to different places. If they had

    4 an opportunity, they would even leave the territory of

    5 their municipality. They went -- they also went to

    6 certain places from which the Muslims had left. They

    7 went to their homes.

    8 Q. And I take it that a lot of the Muslim people

    9 that weren't sort of trapped by the war, if I can call

    10 it that, they left too and went to places like Zenica,

    11 didn't they?

    12 A. There were such cases too and there were

    13 those who stayed.

    14 Q. And they stayed in their villages until such

    15 time as -- well, you may not know this -- until such

    16 time as they were rounded up and brought into the

    17 Kaonik facility?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. But there was no such roundup by the HVO

    20 military police of the Croatian civilians, were they?

    21 They weren't rounded up and put into Kaonik?

    22 A. Those who broke some laws or violated some

    23 laws were brought there, and they would be brought to

    24 this Kaonik facility.

    25 Q. Those were people who had committed criminal

  38. 1 offences, but we've already established that your

    2 Muslim neighbours were not criminals.

    3 A. No, you could not call them criminals.

    4 Nobody said that they were criminals.

    5 Q. You spoke about the fact that you had a

    6 meeting early on with Mr. Aleksovski, and he told you

    7 to treat the Muslim civilian --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. -- prisoners fairly and properly. This was

    10 an order he gave to you, wasn't it?

    11 A. Whether this was an order or something done

    12 on a humane basis, I don't know, but we felt that it

    13 would be humane to treat these people in such a way

    14 because, as I said, we worked, commuted with these

    15 people for years. They were our colleagues from work.

    16 Q. Perhaps you might clarify that for me because

    17 I'm a little uncertain about it. This issue about the

    18 humane treatment of the prisoners, was that something

    19 imposed upon you by Mr. Aleksovski by way of an order,

    20 or was it something you merely chose to do yourself

    21 because you knew that these people were innocent

    22 civilians, or was it perhaps a combination of both?

    23 A. You see, what Mr. Aleksovski said was nothing

    24 bad. He said that these people should be treated as

    25 well as possible. But even if we were not advised by

  39. 1 him in this way, we treated them in a humane and

    2 collegiate way, so to speak, because we worked with

    3 them for years and it is by no means that we treated

    4 them badly.

    5 Q. And you viewed them to be good, honest people

    6 and there was no reason whatsoever for treating them --

    7 A. Of course, there was no reason for any kind

    8 of mistreatment. There was absolutely no reason for

    9 that.

    10 Q. What would happen, do you think, what would

    11 Mr. Aleksovski do if you had mistreated these people?

    12 What would he have done to you if you had mistreated

    13 these people?

    14 A. He would mete out some punishment for any

    15 infractions like that, maybe even some more severe

    16 punishment.

    17 Q. And I take it that, so far as you're

    18 concerned, you took the view that he wouldn't tolerate

    19 any breaches of discipline?

    20 A. If we were to do -- if we did something bad,

    21 he definitely would start some kind of proceedings

    22 against us.

    23 Q. During that period of time, and I'm talking

    24 about the first half of 1993 in particular, it was not

    25 permissible, was it, for ordinary civilian people who

  40. 1 were in no way connected with the military to wear

    2 military clothes?

    3 A. I did not understand you well.

    4 Q. Well, what I'm saying is that you were not

    5 permitted, were you, to wear military-type clothes,

    6 either wholly or partly, during that period of time

    7 because the only people who were permitted to wear

    8 military-type clothes were those persons who were in

    9 some way connected with the military.

    10 A. We were not allowed to wear any type of

    11 uniform, so we were in civilian clothes.

    12 Q. And you would agree with me that only people

    13 who had some sort of connection to the military were

    14 permitted to wear military clothes? It was illegal to

    15 wear military clothes if you weren't in some way

    16 connected to the military?

    17 A. I did not understand that either.

    18 Q. Well, let me take it perhaps in a few more

    19 steps.

    20 There was a shortage of military uniforms

    21 during that period in 1993, wasn't there?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And so the government was anxious to ensure

    24 that only those people who were working for the

    25 military would receive military uniforms which were in

  41. 1 short supply?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And so unless people were actually connected

    4 with the military, whether it be the HVO or some other

    5 unit, they were not permitted to wear military

    6 uniforms?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. "No," they weren't permitted -- is that what

    9 you're saying? They weren't permitted to?

    10 A. It was not permitted.

    11 Q. Now, you said in answer to one of the

    12 questions by Mr. Mikulicic that there were no cases

    13 where people needed medical attention. I take it from

    14 that you're not suggesting there was no cases

    15 whatsoever, there's just none that you are aware of; is

    16 that what you're saying?

    17 A. I was only speaking of the period when I was

    18 there, that there were no such cases that anybody

    19 needed any medical attention or care during that

    20 period.

    21 Q. Now, when the Muslim civilian prisoners were

    22 taken out for trench-digging, were they tied up? Were

    23 they restrained, that you could see?

    24 A. Yes, I could see, but those people were not

    25 tied up. They would just board the trucks and were

  42. 1 taken to locations where some work needed to be done.

    2 Q. Did you ever see the Muslim civilian

    3 prisoners being tied up before they were taken out of

    4 the camp? Did you ever see that happen when you were

    5 there?

    6 A. No, I never saw that.

    7 Q. Now, the people that took these Muslim

    8 civilian prisoners out for trench-digging, they were --

    9 what? -- military police, were they?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And these military police were in uniform and

    12 they were armed?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, the military police had to take

    15 precautions to ensure that these people wouldn't

    16 escape, these Muslim civilian prisoners.

    17 A. Well, of course, because they were also

    18 charged with that.

    19 Q. Now, when your brother went trench-digging

    20 and your son went trench-digging, he wasn't sent there

    21 as a prisoner, was he? He was someone who was co-opted

    22 to assist with the war movement?

    23 A. Well, it wasn't really of their own free will

    24 that they went there, but such needs arose and the

    25 military police would come and take them there, and

  43. 1 after they were done, they would bring them back.

    2 Q. They were citizens of the municipality who

    3 were being called upon --

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. -- by the government to assist with the war

    6 effort?

    7 A. War effort? I'm not sure that I understood

    8 who was called to help in the war effort.

    9 Q. Okay. I'll take it more slowly.

    10 When it came to your brother and your son

    11 being taken to dig trenches, their assistance was

    12 sought --

    13 A. Right.

    14 Q. -- by the military police because there was a

    15 shortage of manpower and in order to protect the

    16 municipality --

    17 A. Exactly, yes.

    18 Q. -- their assistance was required?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. They weren't arrested and taken -- what

    21 didn't happen to your brother and son was they were

    22 not --

    23 A. No. No, they were not.

    24 Q. -- they were not confined in a prison?

    25 A. No.

  44. 1 Q. And when they went out to dig trenches, they

    2 didn't have armed guards there who would shoot them in

    3 the back if they tried to escape?

    4 A. Well, the military police was with them as it

    5 was with the Muslims.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, excuse me for

    7 interrupting you, but maybe it would be good if we took

    8 a break so that we can all take a little rest. So we

    9 will take a 20-minute break.

    10 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, please

    13 continue. You may continue.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    15 Q. Mr. Lukin, how old was your son when he was

    16 taken trench-digging?

    17 A. He was 38.

    18 Q. And your brother, how old was he?

    19 A. My brother at that time was 63.

    20 Q. And just going back for a little moment to

    21 the Domobran unit that you spoke of retired people

    22 being in that. Was there also young men in it as well?

    23 A. You mean among the Domobrans?

    24 Q. Yes.

    25 A. No. For the most part these were people

  45. 1 advanced in age.

    2 Q. Now, I think you said that your brother and

    3 son had said to you that they knew of no one who had

    4 been injured at the front when they were

    5 trench-digging. Other than from them telling you, did

    6 you hear from other source where the people had been

    7 injured or killed when they were taken out for

    8 trench-digging?

    9 A. No, I did not hear that there were any

    10 injured during that labour.

    11 Q. Now, when the military police would come to

    12 take the Muslim civilian prisoners out for the purposes

    13 of trench-digging, they would come in the morning,

    14 wouldn't they?

    15 A. Yes, there were cases when they would come in

    16 the morning or in the evening, depending on when

    17 certain works were needed out in the field.

    18 Q. And the people were selected, the Muslim

    19 civilian prisoners were selected according to a list?

    20 A. I'm not sure I understand how -- what you

    21 mean by according to the list. Let's say the people

    22 were chosen from a list if any work needed to be done,

    23 some younger people were usually selected, and those

    24 who were not well, they were sort of exempt. They were

    25 spared.

  46. 1 Q. Now, Mr. Aleksovski was there, wasn't he,

    2 from time to time when people were being selected and

    3 taken out for trench-digging?

    4 A. Sometimes he was not there. There were times

    5 when Mr. Aleksovski was not there. He had his own work

    6 hours and maybe somebody else whose shift it was would

    7 assume the role of Mr. Aleksovski.

    8 Q. Yes. I am not disputing that there were

    9 times when he wasn't there I am just saying that there

    10 were also times when he was there?

    11 A. Yes, there were times when he was there, and

    12 when he was there he was sort of controlling us there

    13 and he would observe whether we carry out our duties

    14 properly.

    15 Q. Now, how did you know that these people were

    16 going for trench-digging? Did the HVO police tell you

    17 that, did they?

    18 A. We knew, because the -- a door -- the gate

    19 would open, the people would board a vehicle. You

    20 didn't need to know more than that. You would see that

    21 people were leaving.

    22 Q. Yes. But it's known that they are actually

    23 going to be used for trench-digging, was the point I

    24 was aiming at. Did the HVO military police say, for

    25 example, we need "X" number of people for the purposes

  47. 1 of digging trenches? Did they tell you that so that

    2 you knew that was what was happening? Or did

    3 Mr. Aleksovski tell you?

    4 A. You see, we who were there securing the

    5 facility had no idea whether they would go or not. We

    6 would just see when the police arrived, when the gate

    7 would open, the vehicle would be brought in. But if --

    8 we didn't know that in advance as Domobrans. We were

    9 not informed about it.

    10 Q. Now, I think you yourself don't know whether

    11 or not the Muslim civilian prisoners that were taken

    12 trench-digging were beaten or not, but you couldn't

    13 know that because you weren't at the trenches, weren't

    14 you?

    15 A. No. That's correct.

    16 Q. I suppose your son or your brother never

    17 complained of being beaten when they were

    18 trench-digging?

    19 A. No, they did not complain. They did not say

    20 anything to that effect.

    21 Q. Now, did you know during this period of time

    22 that some of the Muslim civilian prisoners were taken

    23 out for the purposes of being used as human shields for

    24 the HVO?

    25 A. I am not familiar with that. I do not know

  48. 1 that anything of that kind happened.

    2 Q. Certainly, I take it, your son or your

    3 brother were never used as HVO human shields?

    4 A. I assumed that they were not.

    5 Q. Well, I think they would have told you if

    6 they had of been, wouldn't they? It's something that

    7 they would likely tell you about?

    8 A. Yes, probably they would have.

    9 Q. During the time that you were there, can you

    10 tell us, approximately, how many people were in the

    11 hangar? How many Muslim civilian prisoners were in the

    12 hangar?

    13 A. We did not have access to that information,

    14 and we did not know the number of people who were in

    15 the facility.

    16 Q. Would you be able to have a rough idea. I

    17 know you obviously didn't sit down and count them, but

    18 was there -- did it appear to you that there were more

    19 than a hundred or less than a thousand? Are you able

    20 to give us any estimate at all?

    21 A. It would be difficult for me to give any

    22 figure. I never entered the facility, had no access to

    23 that, so I would not be able to give you any number.

    24 Q. Now, you spoke of people -- I'll withdraw

    25 that, Your Honours.

  49. 1 I take it, that you are aware that in some of

    2 the villages surrounding the Kaonik facility, that some

    3 of those villages were destroyed and a lot of the

    4 people -- a lot of the people were killed. You knew

    5 that that happened, didn't you?

    6 A. I don't know that they were killed, but since

    7 I lived right next door to it, I did see that on some

    8 occasions some buildings were on fire.

    9 Q. Well, you lived fairly closely to the village

    10 of Ahmici, didn't you? That was fairly close to where

    11 you lived?

    12 A. No, not very near the Ahmici village.

    13 Q. How far away?

    14 A. Something like seven kilometres away.

    15 Q. You knew it had been -- you knew it had been

    16 razed to the ground and that there was allegations

    17 about a lot of people being killed there, hadn't you?

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.

    19 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, objection

    20 regarding the village of Ahmici, because the village of

    21 Ahmici has absolutely not related to the charges in

    22 this indictment before this Trial Chamber.

    23 And with respect to the decision of the Trial

    24 Chamber of 19 June '98, where it states that the

    25 Prosecution needs to limit itself to the charges set

  50. 1 out in the indictment, that is the basis for our

    2 objection.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I will be

    4 demonstrating the significance of this line of

    5 cross-examination as it emerges. And it will touch

    6 upon matters which were discussed in evidence in chief

    7 of this witness.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, can you tell

    9 us in advance what is the importance of this question,

    10 please?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: I certainly could, Your

    12 Honours, but I would ask that the witness be requested

    13 to remove his headset, if that's the case.

    14 Yes, Your Honours, the line of questioning is

    15 that there's been suggestion raised by this and other

    16 witnesses that have come here that a lot of the --

    17 well, not a lot, but a number of the people, the Muslim

    18 people, came to the Kaonik facility voluntarily. And

    19 the questions I am asking relate to the fact that there

    20 were places, such as Ahmici and others which were

    21 notorious places where people were killed, Muslim

    22 villages were -- things happened, like the buildings

    23 were burnt down, people were shot by the HVO, such that

    24 it may be that a number of these people that came to

    25 these areas, such as Kaonik, to seek protection and

  51. 1 shelter, because they in fact wanted to get away from

    2 the attacks by the HVO.

    3 So that it's not a case of people being

    4 concerned about attacks from the army of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina that they wanted to escape from,

    6 that they wanted to go to Kaonik because they felt it

    7 may have been safer than staying in their homes in a

    8 village like Ahmici where the evidence shows -- where

    9 there was notorious events that occurred.

    10 So it's that line of questioning. It comes

    11 to that conclusion. And I have -- I believe that this

    12 witness would know about what happened at Ahmici. I

    13 believe he would know that. He can say one way or the

    14 other. But that's where the line of questioning goes.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, what would

    16 you like to say to this?

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: I would like to say -- to

    18 raise two points. The Defence absolutely respect the

    19 position of the Prosecution, but before that the

    20 Defence would like to clarify some points, if the

    21 Prosecution would like to pose a question along these

    22 lines. I think that first of all he would have to ask

    23 the witness whether the people were Ahmici were brought

    24 to Kaonik. And then if the answer is yes, then we see

    25 a relation. If the answer is no, we see no relation

  52. 1 between this and our witness.

    2 So the Defence believes that the questioning

    3 should go along these lines. This is, perhaps, just a

    4 suggestion for the further cross-examination.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, I think that

    6 Mr. Mikulicic is right, as far as the way of

    7 questioning is concerned. So you say that the question

    8 was that you want to know whether there were people

    9 from -- who were brought there, given the

    10 circumstances. Can you -- have you understood me,

    11 because you can only proceed in that way.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: I am not prepared to proceed in

    13 the way that Mr. Mikulicic is saying I have to proceed,

    14 but I am prepared to change my line of questioning,

    15 Your Honours.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (No translation).

    17 MR. NIEMANN: I had no translation of that.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You can resume your

    19 questioning.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

    21 Q. Mr. Lukin, are you aware that during this

    22 period of time, that's in 1993 and the early part of

    23 1993 through the whole of that period, that a number of

    24 villages in relatively close proximity to yourself were

    25 destroyed, and both Croat villages and Muslim villages?

  53. 1 A. Well, there were cases that people were

    2 killed from these villages.

    3 Q. And the villages that were destroyed, the

    4 Croat villages, for example, were likely to have been

    5 destroyed by forces of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    6 and the villages that --

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. -- were predominantly Muslim were likely to

    9 have been destroyed by the forces of the HVO; that's

    10 the nature of war, is it not?

    11 A. Well, exactly, yes.

    12 Q. So when people -- so when Muslim civilian

    13 citizens from the neighbourhood came to the Kaonik

    14 facility, you would agree with me, would you not, that

    15 more than likely they were in fear of being attacked by

    16 HVO forces?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now, prior to the war, and when the Kaonik

    19 facility was a JNA base, it was an ammunition dump,

    20 wasn't it?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And you wouldn't be able to say one way or

    23 the other, I take it, whether the Army of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina still believed it to be an

    25 ammunition dump or a prison facility in which Muslims

  54. 1 were being kept in 1993?

    2 A. Well, they wouldn't believe that it was an

    3 ammunition depot or dump, because they knew when these

    4 facilities were evacuated and when all the mighty

    5 potential and arms and weapons were withdrew from

    6 there.

    7 Q. Is that something that you know? How do you

    8 know that? Tell me, how is it that you know that, that

    9 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina would have known that

    10 for sure, that it had been disbanded as an ammunition

    11 dump?

    12 A. Well, they knew because the military

    13 facilities, such as they were in Kaonik, existed in

    14 Kacuni, and these facilities were vacated and evacuated

    15 simultaneously by the JNA troops, so which took with

    16 them everything that they needed. And it was evident,

    17 then, that the army knew what happened with the

    18 facility at Kaonik.

    19 Q. Now, one final point is that when you were

    20 injured, you said that you were sent home in order to

    21 get better. Do you remember saying that, in 1993?

    22 A. Yes. I even said the date when I was

    23 wounded, how long I was absent, and that I resumed my

    24 duty, but not in the prison, inside the prison, but

    25 outside at the gate.

  55. 1 Q. I take it, that you would agree with me that

    2 it's common sense that it was considered that when you

    3 were injured and recovering, home would have been the

    4 best place for you to be, because it was warmer, it was

    5 safer, and there was a ready supply of water and food

    6 for you to help you in your recovery?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    9 Honour.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    11 any additional questions?

    12 MR. MIKULICIC: Well, maybe just a few, Your

    13 Honours, if you allow me.

    14 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    15 Q. Mr. Lukin, can you tell us, according to your

    16 knowledge, from which villages in the Busovaca area

    17 people were brought or they arrived, civilian Muslims

    18 were brought or they arrived at Kaonik?

    19 A. Yes. The village of Loncari, the village of

    20 Strane and the village of Skradno.

    21 Q. Mr. Lukin, were there any cases that, as far

    22 as the village of Ahmici was concerned, that some

    23 people would arrive or be brought to Kaonik?

    24 A. Ahmici are in no way related to the -- to

    25 what happened in Kaonik and a facility at Kaonik.

  56. 1 Q. I see. Mr. Lukin, you also mentioned that

    2 some people, and by that I imply the population of

    3 Croat origin, that people who were not involved as

    4 fighters in the frontlines, and who were not involved

    5 in your Domobran company, in the same company in which

    6 you served, that those people would remain home; is

    7 that correct?

    8 A. I did not understand you completely.

    9 Q. Is that true, Mr. Lukin, that local

    10 population, and by that I imply local Croats, who were

    11 not engaged in the front or who were not serving in

    12 your Domobran company, is that true that they would

    13 remain home?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. The people who remained home, did they have

    16 labour duty?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Does that apply -- did that apply to your son

    19 and your brother?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Do you know, perhaps, what would happen if

    22 your son, or your brother, when military police would

    23 come to take them away for labour duty, what would

    24 happen if they refused?

    25 A. Well, the same measures would be taken as

  57. 1 against all others. Perhaps they would be punished or

    2 disciplined, something like that.

    3 Q. One more question, Mr. Lukin. Does Zlatko

    4 Aleksovski belong to your Domobran company?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Did Zlatko Aleksovski have any powers as far

    7 as giving orders to Domobrans in the Domobran company

    8 were concerned?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Who did have such orders in your company?

    11 A. The commander of the Domobran company.

    12 MR. MIKULICIC: No further questions, Your

    13 Honours.

    14 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, a number of questions

    15 were put to you about the hygienic conditions in Kaonik

    16 Prison. Now, can you tell me how many toilets there

    17 were for all the inmates in that facility?

    18 A. Are you asking me?

    19 JUDGE VOHRAH: Yes.

    20 A. I cannot answer that question.

    21 JUDGE VOHRAH: I don't suppose, then, you can

    22 answer the next question as to how many bathrooms there

    23 were in that facility?

    24 A. In that facility, the facility to be secured,

    25 the Domobrans, there were no bathrooms. But there were

  58. 1 bathrooms in the neighbouring facility, and

    2 occasionally people would go there to take a bath.

    3 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Lukin, I too have some

    5 questions for you. You said that you served at the

    6 entrance at the gate, and that you were there in order

    7 to allow people in, people in vehicles who had permits;

    8 is that correct?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And you already said

    11 something about that when the Prosecutor asked you

    12 about the same thing. But I need some clarification

    13 there. We know that you were there, and that you spent

    14 only 10 days there; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Who then -- who then would

    17 usually have those permits?

    18 A. For entering the grounds, permits were issued

    19 to people from the Red Cross.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. But I said those who

    21 would be allowed to enter the grounds. Who would

    22 normally be given such permits?

    23 A. Well, you see, we who were on duty at the

    24 gate, we had a telephone, just for internal use, and

    25 when people would come to the gate who we -- whom we

  59. 1 did not know, and who did not have the necessary

    2 documents, we would consult the shift leader or

    3 Mr. Zlatko whether or not we should allow them to

    4 enter.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I understand that if there

    6 were people who would come without papers, that you

    7 would then seek permission or give them permission to

    8 enter, but people who already had permits with them,

    9 were they allowed to enter directly or did you have to

    10 consult Mr. Aleksovski in order to let them in?

    11 A. Well, most frequently there was military

    12 police and they had those papers, and so there was no

    13 need for us to consult or to seek permission from

    14 Zlatko or from one of his assistants to allow such

    15 people to get in.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right, Mr. Lukin. But

    17 in addition to military police, there were other

    18 people, members of other organisations who already had

    19 such documents on them, such permits; is that correct?

    20 A. I don't know that there were organisations

    21 who had such documents. I mentioned already military

    22 police and representatives of the Red Cross, and there

    23 were no other people.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And as far as the HVO

    25 soldiers were concerned, what about them? Did you

  60. 1 understand me? Did you understand the question?

    2 A. No.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, I have -- my question

    4 is as follows: HVO soldiers, did they have

    5 authorisation to enter or not?

    6 A. People who were employed in the prison, they

    7 had the permits.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. I see. But the HVO

    9 soldiers who did not work there, for instance, soldiers

    10 -- HVO soldiers who did not work in the prison, did

    11 they have or didn't they have to -- didn't they have

    12 such permits?

    13 A. They -- there were no such permits and they

    14 did not enter the prison grounds.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, for instance, if a

    16 soldier, if an HVO soldier who was not employed in the

    17 prison, if such a person wanted to enter the prison

    18 grounds, you would have to consult Mr. Aleksovski about

    19 the permit; is that correct?

    20 A. Well, yes, but in most cases such persons

    21 would not arrive without documents.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. I have one more

    23 question for you, Mr. Lukin. You said that food was

    24 served three times a day or two times a day, and that

    25 in any case there were difficulties since you had food

  61. 1 shortages; is that correct?

    2 A. Yes, I said in the beginning we had enough

    3 food, but there were no shortages. And as the blockade

    4 continued, and it lasted for a long time, we had to

    5 distribute only two meals a day, or two rations a day.

    6 And I already said that it was the same food for all.

    7 People who were in the facility, people who served, and

    8 all the others.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right, Mr. Lukin. How

    10 was the food served? How was it served? Was it served

    11 in plates or in any other way?

    12 A. In the facility that we guarded, the food was

    13 distributed into rations and plates.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, then, individual

    15 rations; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Did you -- were you aware

    18 of the fact that, or did you know, actually, how the

    19 civilians received their food, the civilian prisoners?

    20 A. In the same way that was applied to all the

    21 others.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Another

    23 question. Did you know how a military police uniform

    24 looked like?

    25 A. Well, they had the same uniform as the HVO

  62. 1 soldiers, but the insignias were different.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Can you distinguish, or

    3 could you distinguish between the uniforms of a soldier

    4 and a military police, judging by the insignias they

    5 had; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And the uniform that

    8 Mr. Aleksovski sometimes wore, was it the same as the

    9 uniform of the HVO or was it a uniform of the military

    10 police?

    11 A. Well, it looked more like an HVO uniform, but

    12 without the insignia, and he frequently wore civilian

    13 clothes.

    14 Q. Yes. But if I understood you correctly, when

    15 he wore a military uniform, his uniform resembled more

    16 the uniform of the HVO than the uniform of a military

    17 police; did I understood you correctly?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that the Trial

    20 Chamber has no further questions for you, Mr. Lukin.

    21 Thank you very much for coming here, and I hope that

    22 you will have a safe journey back to your home. Thank

    23 you very much, Mr. Lukin.

    24 (The witness withdrew)

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you have the

  63. 1 floor.

    2 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. The

    3 Defence now calls the witness by the name of Ivica

    4 Bagaric.

    5 (The witness entered court)

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon,

    7 Mr. Bagaric. Can you hear me? You will now read the

    8 solemn declaration that will be given to you by our

    9 official.

    10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    12 truth.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated, sir.

    14 You can be seated, so as to feel comfortable. Do you

    15 feel comfortable, sir? For the time being you will

    16 answer the questions which will be posed to you by

    17 Mr. Mikulicic.

    18 You have the floor, Mr. Mikulicic.


    20 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    21 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I would just kindly

    22 ask, before we start with the questioning of

    23 Mr. Bagaric, if I can consult my client for a short

    24 time, for about 30 seconds to be more precise. Do I

    25 have your permission to consult my client?

  64. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Do you have any objections,

    2 Mr. Niemann?

    3 MR. NIEMANN: Certainly not, Your Honour.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You have the permission,

    5 Mr. Mikulicic.

    6 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I

    7 am ready now to proceed.

    8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bagaric?

    9 A. Good afternoon.

    10 Q. My name is Mr. Mikulicic and I represent

    11 Mr. Aleksovski, together with my colleague, Mr. Joka.

    12 I am going to ask you some questions and please be so

    13 kind to answer them to the best of your ability.

    14 Mr. Bagaric, when were you born?

    15 A. I was born in 1942 in Busovaca.

    16 Q. Did you spend your childhood in Busovaca?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Do you reside in Busovaca?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. When you speak of Busovaca, are you talking

    21 about the town of Busovaca or the wider area of

    22 Busovaca?

    23 A. I live in the village, I guess, of Kaonik,

    24 but I went to school in the Kaonik town.

    25 Q. Do you live in your own family house or in

  65. 1 some apartment building?

    2 A. In my own house.

    3 Q. What is your ethnic background, Mr. Bagaric?

    4 A. I am a Croat.

    5 Q. Are you religious?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What is your religion?

    8 A. It's Roman Catholic.

    9 Q. Mr. Bagaric, where did you go to school?

    10 A. I graduated from the elementary school in

    11 Busovaca and from the secondary school in Zenica.

    12 Q. What kind of a secondary school in Zenica was

    13 it that --

    14 A. It was a trade school and I was specialised

    15 in metals.

    16 Q. Did you take employment right after school?

    17 A. Yes. Right away.

    18 Q. Where did you become employed?

    19 A. In Zenica, in a company called Pappero.

    20 Q. Did you do your military service?

    21 A. Yes, after I graduated from the secondary

    22 school I did.

    23 Q. When was this, approximately?

    24 A. This was in 1962, '63.

    25 Q. Did you receive any rank in the army?

  66. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. After you completed your military service in

    3 the former JNA, did you have any obligations with the

    4 reserves during the period of time of the former

    5 Yugoslavia?

    6 A. No, I did not have any duties, but

    7 occasionally, since I was a mechanic in the old

    8 artillery during my military service, so during some

    9 military exercises I went there for some repairs.

    10 Q. You continued to live in Kaonik in the

    11 Busovaca municipality?

    12 A. Yes. I have been at the same address.

    13 Q. Are you retired or are you still employed?

    14 A. I am neither. I was wounded, so I received

    15 disability. But the company where I worked is -- is no

    16 longer in operation.

    17 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you recall the beginning of

    18 the conflict in Busovaca, when was this? And I am

    19 speaking now about the Muslim-Croat conflict of 1993.

    20 A. This was early on. I could not give you the

    21 exact time, but it was early in 1993.

    22 Q. How do you remember those events?

    23 A. There was so much shooting.

    24 Q. So there was shooting?

    25 A. Yes and then also I was mobilised until I was

  67. 1 wounded.

    2 Q. Can you tell us when you were mobilised and

    3 to what military unit you were mobilised?

    4 A. I was mobilised in early 1993 and the

    5 military unit was the HVO. That is an HVO unit, they

    6 were called the HVO.

    7 Q. And what happened thereafter?

    8 A. Thereafter I was transferred to the Domobran

    9 unit, but I don't know what its name was, because I was

    10 considered a bit older. So I was assigned to the

    11 Domobrans.

    12 Q. Does that mean that you were transferred from

    13 the HVO unit to the Domobran unit because of your age?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Other persons who, like you, were members of

    16 the Domobran unit, were these also older people? What

    17 was the age group there?

    18 A. Yes, for the most part they were old and they

    19 were even older than I was.

    20 Q. When you joined the Domobran units, did you

    21 receive a uniform or some weapons from that unit?

    22 A. No, I did not receive anything.

    23 Q. But I assume that you had a uniform from

    24 before, when you were in the HVO?

    25 A. That is correct. I had it from there. But I

  68. 1 did not receive anything from the Domobrans.

    2 Q. Mr. Bagaric, does that mean that you were

    3 allowed to take the uniform, which was issued to you by

    4 the HVO, to the new unit?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. How about the weapons?

    7 A. The weapons I did not receive, but if I was

    8 to go to certain duty or task, I would be given a

    9 weapon.

    10 Q. So what duties or tasks were you assigned to

    11 while you were with the Domobran unit?

    12 A. While I was there I was assigned to guard the

    13 civilians in the Kaonik Prison.

    14 Q. You mentioned that you had a house in the

    15 Kaonik village. How far is your house from the Kaonik

    16 Prison?

    17 A. About five to six hundred metres.

    18 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you know what the purpose of

    19 the Kaonik facility was before the armed conflict which

    20 took place in the Busovaca area, that is the conflict

    21 between the Croats and Muslims?

    22 A. Before the conflict it was used by the

    23 Yugoslav army.

    24 Q. You mean the JNA?

    25 A. Yes. At that time it belonged to them.

  69. 1 Q. And after the JNA pulled out of

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what happened to this facility?

    3 A. The civilians were taken there, the civilians

    4 of the Muslim ethnic background.

    5 Q. Do you know whether there was a district

    6 military prison there or not?

    7 A. I know it was not there, but it wasn't in

    8 this facility.

    9 Q. You mean in Kaonik?

    10 A. Yes, in Kaonik.

    11 Q. You say it was in another facility, you mean

    12 another building?

    13 A. Yes, another building. Not where I guarded

    14 these civilian Muslims. It was -- that prison was in

    15 another building.

    16 Q. I see. How far were these two buildings away

    17 from one another?

    18 A. About 30 to 40, maybe up to 50 metres.

    19 Q. You mentioned that as a member of the

    20 Domobran unit you were assigned to guard the Kaonik

    21 facility. What exactly was your task or duty?

    22 A. My task was that during my duty, if the

    23 prisoners, and I don't know if I can call them

    24 prisoners, but if they wanted to go to the toilet, I

    25 would open the door for them. When the food was

  70. 1 brought to them, that I opened the door again.

    2 Sometimes they asked for wood and then I would give

    3 them wood, if it was cold. So things like that.

    4 Q. Were you armed at that time when you guarded

    5 that building?

    6 A. Yes, I did have a rifle.

    7 Q. What was your relationship with these persons

    8 who were kept there who were these Muslim civilians?

    9 A. My relationship? Everything was fine.

    10 Q. Did you know any of these people?

    11 A. Yes, I knew quite a few of them.

    12 Q. Where were they from? Where did they live

    13 before?

    14 A. For the most part these people were, as we

    15 called them, neighbours. They would be from

    16 neighbouring villages.

    17 Q. Do you, perhaps, recall what villages?

    18 A. Yes. They were from the villages of Loncari

    19 and Skradno.

    20 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you remember whether in the

    21 area of the villages of Loncari and Skradno any

    22 fighting was going on?

    23 A. What period are you referring to?

    24 Q. I am referring to the period of time when you

    25 were guarding the prison facility.

  71. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I am talking now about the

    3 security situation during the conflict. Did shells and

    4 grenades fall around your house where you lived?

    5 A. Yes, they did, and I was wounded at that time

    6 and there.

    7 Q. Do you know what the situation was in other

    8 areas of the Busovaca municipality? Were shells

    9 falling around there as well, and was there shooting

    10 going on?

    11 A. There was no location in the area where the

    12 shells did not fall.

    13 Q. Was it because the Defence lines or the

    14 frontlines were close by?

    15 A. Yes, they were very close. Busovaca is a

    16 small place, so all around there were -- are -- we

    17 called them the defence lines, and then there were the

    18 lines in between. And then there were the Muslim lines

    19 also, beyond that.

    20 Q. Can you tell us what was the distance as the

    21 crow flies between your house and the front lines?

    22 A. In some places it was even less than 500

    23 metres, and in some other places up to 2.000 or 2.500.

    24 Q. Mr. Bagaric, while you were on duty providing

    25 security at Kaonik, did you have an opportunity to be

  72. 1 in contact with the civilians, the Muslim civilians who

    2 were there?

    3 A. Yes, I did.

    4 Q. Could you observe what conditions -- what

    5 their living conditions were, where they slept, how

    6 they ate, where they went to the toilet? Can you tell

    7 us something about that?

    8 A. I even entered the areas where they stayed.

    9 And since they were my former neighbours, I even played

    10 cards with them.

    11 May I continue now? As I said I entered

    12 there and I played cards with them. I knew a lot of

    13 them, most of them. And as far as the conditions are

    14 concerned, I know that they were not cold, they had

    15 something to cover themselves with. Whenever they

    16 asked for something, water, wood, a blanket or

    17 something, they would receive that. And we didn't --

    18 and as far as the sleeping, we had pallets. That was

    19 it.

    20 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you recall personally an

    21 event, a situation where you yourself answered and

    22 provided some service to somebody who asked you?

    23 A. Yes. Can I say what it was?

    24 Q. Go ahead, please.

    25 A. As I said a moment ago, I knew most of them

  73. 1 and they knew me. I once asked Mr. Aleksovski, I told

    2 him that very frequently they wanted to go out to the

    3 toilet, and I opened the door and I let them. And I

    4 said -- I asked him if I could just let them walk

    5 around during my shift and then, at the end of my

    6 shift, they should go back into their room. And that's

    7 how it happened. And then, after a couple of days, one

    8 of them approached me because, as he said, I was good.

    9 And he said, "Ivica, could you please request of

    10 Mr. Aleksovski if I could go, I could be taken to have

    11 my haircut." So I went to Mr. Aleksovski and I -- and

    12 he said there is no problem, but just bring him back.

    13 So, since my house was near the facility, I

    14 told my wife that I would bring this man. So he came

    15 over to my place. He took a bath. I gave him a fresh

    16 change of underwear. He ate something and we went to

    17 Busovaca where he got a hair cut.

    18 We walked around Busovaca a little bit, we

    19 returned to my house, and in the evening we went back

    20 to the prison. And the man thanked me and he told me

    21 if he ever went back to his home, "here is my address,

    22 here is my phone number. Come and visit." However, I

    23 never went to visit. That's how it happened.

    24 Q. Do you recall the name of this man today?

    25 A. I have it written down, if you want me to I

  74. 1 can look it up. But I forget now.

    2 Q. Do you have it here on you?

    3 A. Yes, I do.

    4 Q. Go ahead, refresh your memory.

    5 A. I'm sorry, my wallet is not here. I know

    6 that his nickname was Rusmir Pasic, something like

    7 that. I know that they called him Rujo.

    8 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you said that you would enter

    9 the building where the Muslim civilians were kept, and

    10 that you played cards with them; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Would you occasionally bring something with

    13 you to share with them?

    14 A. Yes. In fact, I brought some alcohol with

    15 me, but I didn't do it quite on my own. I asked before

    16 I did that.

    17 Q. So you offered them some brandy, right?

    18 A. Yes. And since I am not a smoker and I was

    19 receiving cigarettes, I would distribute my cigarettes

    20 to them.

    21 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you notice what food was

    22 like? What did these people eat?

    23 A. At that time the food there was kind of

    24 soldiery food. It was mostly beans and some pasta and

    25 occasionally there was meat. So I ate that food

  75. 1 myself, as well.

    2 Q. So everybody ate the same food, both the

    3 soldiers and the prisoners?

    4 A. Yes. They all -- everybody ate the same

    5 food.

    6 Q. Do you remember whether at the time, when you

    7 were on duty at Kaonik, that there was some outbreak,

    8 some disease among these people?

    9 A. No. I don't remember.

    10 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you see whether these Muslim

    11 civilians, who were in this facility which you guarded,

    12 did you see them go to work, to labour?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Could you describe to us how this took place?

    15 A. Usually somebody would come from the

    16 frontlines and would ask somebody from the military

    17 police for several, I don't know how many, people who

    18 they needed to dig some canals. Then they would come

    19 into the hangar, escorted by the military policemen,

    20 and they would take, 10, 15, however many they needed,

    21 they would take them in a vehicle and they would take

    22 them out to dig.

    23 Q. You said somebody would come. Do you mean

    24 somebody from the military?

    25 A. No, no, no. Somebody from the frontlines.

  76. 1 Either a commander or deputy commander. They would

    2 come to the military policemen and the military

    3 policemen would come to the hangar, and there would be

    4 a list. We had nothing with that. We had nothing to

    5 do with it.

    6 Q. I understand. And who would compile this

    7 list? Do you know that?

    8 A. No, I do not know that.

    9 Q. Mr. Bagaric, tell us, if you know, whether

    10 the citizens of Croatian ethnic background, who also

    11 had this labour duty, those who were not mobilised in

    12 the HVO units who had remained back at home (sic)?

    13 A. Everybody who could dig and who was not in

    14 the military was sent digging, including my uncle, for

    15 instance.

    16 Q. How old was your uncle at that time?

    17 A. He was born in 1920.

    18 Q. Do you know where your uncle went to perform

    19 his labour duty?

    20 A. That was on the frontline at Kula and at

    21 Podjele, and a little bit at frontline at Strane.

    22 Q. And, Mr. Bagaric, do you know how he went to

    23 perform his labour work duty? Did somebody come to

    24 take him, did he go there on his own, how did it

    25 happen?

  77. 1 A. As far as I know, because we lived, one next

    2 to another, he would receive information and then he

    3 would leave there and then, when he was out, he would

    4 come back home.

    5 Q. Would he always receive a notice or would

    6 some soldier come to get him?

    7 A. Sometimes they would come even at night. For

    8 instance, a line would be broken and then you needed to

    9 dig a new line.

    10 Q. Do you know of other people who had this work

    11 duty from your village, or of your neighbourhood,

    12 except for your uncle?

    13 A. As I said before, everybody who was not able

    14 to fight. There were even younger women who did not go

    15 to the frontline, but went to this work duty.

    16 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you mentioned Zlatko

    17 Aleksovski. Can you tell me when you -- when it was

    18 that you met him?

    19 A. I met Zlatko Aleksovski when I came there to

    20 guard the civilians.

    21 Q. Would you recognise him today if you saw him?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you see him here in the courtroom?

    24 A. Yes, I see him over there. That's the man.

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness

  78. 1 pointed to the accused and identifies him as Zlatko

    2 Aleksovski.

    3 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you have frequent contacts

    4 with Zlatko Aleksovski or did you see him once or

    5 twice?

    6 A. While I was on duty, we saw each other. He

    7 did not give me very many orders, because I had my own

    8 commander of the Domobrans unit.

    9 Q. But was Zlatko Aleksovski a member of your

    10 Domobran unit?

    11 A. And as far as my acquaintance with him is

    12 concerned, he took me to the health centre when I was

    13 wounded (sic).

    14 Q. Do you know how Zlatko Aleksovski was dressed

    15 while he was at Kaonik, while you were at Kaonik? Did

    16 he wear a uniform or civilian clothes?

    17 A. Both uniform and civilian clothes, it

    18 depended.

    19 Q. Do you recall whether he had any insignia,

    20 any rank insignia or anything?

    21 A. No, I do not recall.

    22 Q. Mr. Bagaric, tell me, at that time was it

    23 usual for the people who were not involved in the army

    24 to wear uniforms or part of uniforms?

    25 A. Yes, it was. People who received them from

  79. 1 the HVO before, they were wearing them when they were

    2 on the frontlines, sometimes when they were at home, or

    3 when they were working, depending on the situation. It

    4 even became popular to wear some vests and t-shirts.

    5 Q. Mr. Bagaric, six years have passed since. Do

    6 some people in your village still wear parts of

    7 uniforms in your village?

    8 A. Yes. A few days ago a man brought some wood

    9 to me from the forest, and he was wearing army boots

    10 and an army vest.

    11 Q. An army vest?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. Wouldn't you agree with me that it is not

    14 unusual for civilians, at that time, and even today, to

    15 wear parts of military uniforms; is that unusual?

    16 A. No. At least not for us living in that area.

    17 Q. Did you notice, while you were at Kaonik, in

    18 what way Zlatko Aleksovski treated the prisoners, the

    19 Muslim civilians who were there, how did he treat them?

    20 A. Well, if you were asking me whether I

    21 directly and personally saw how he treated the

    22 prisoners, I didn't. But I can tell you that he was a

    23 correct, because whenever I asked him to do something

    24 for some of the prisoners, he always said yes.

    25 Q. I see. While you were at Kaonik, did you see

  80. 1 any cases or incidents where somebody would beat or

    2 maltreat the Muslim civilians?

    3 A. While I was there as a guard, I haven't seen

    4 anything like that. And what happened before that, I

    5 wouldn't know.

    6 Q. Do you remember whether some of them was

    7 taken ill, seriously, or that some of them was injured

    8 or -- while you were there?

    9 A. While I was there, nothing like that had

    10 happened.

    11 Q. You said, in the beginning of your testimony,

    12 that practically there was not a single part of the

    13 area in Busovaca which was not shelled and where the

    14 fighting was not going on. Is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Does it also apply to Kaonik?

    17 A. Well, perhaps that was the place that was

    18 most heavily shelled but the entire area of Busovaca

    19 was shelled and not a single inch was left without

    20 shelling.

    21 Q. Do you know whether some of the prisoners, or

    22 the Muslims who were detained in Kaonik, were any of

    23 them wounded or killed?

    24 A. In Kaonik or at Busovaca, as such, I haven't

    25 heard of any such cases.

  81. 1 Q. Were you wounded, Mr. Bagaric?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. While you were on duty as a guard?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Can you describe how it happened?

    6 A. I was going to work, just as I arrived at the

    7 gate an acquaintance, or a friend and a neighbour was

    8 there, and we stopped there to talk for a while because

    9 I was early. And a shell landed four and a half metres

    10 away from me and it -- I fell down. And people who

    11 were there said that -- told Zlatko what happened. He

    12 came with the car, took me to the medical centre in

    13 Busovaca. This is where I received first aid. And

    14 from there I was transferred to Nova Bila to the

    15 hospital there.

    16 My son was later killed, accompanied me, and

    17 Zlatko drove his car back home. I don't know whether

    18 you need any more details, because my son at the time

    19 was in the military police. As soon as he heard that

    20 he (sic) was wounded, he immediately came there and his

    21 car remained when I was taken to hospital. And that is

    22 why Mr. Aleksovski drove the car home.

    23 Q. When was your son killed, Mr. Bagaric?

    24 A. He was killed on the 10th of September 1973.

    25 Q. You mean 1993?

  82. 1 A. Yes, '93. He was born in 1973.

    2 Q. As a member of the HVO?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And how were you wounded? What injuries did

    5 you sustain? Severe or light?

    6 A. Well, the kidney now, my kidney could be

    7 seen, I have a wound which is 14 centimetres long. And

    8 I also had some slight injuries on my hands and

    9 elsewhere.

    10 Q. So you were lucky to stay alive?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Mr. Bagaric, after you received help at the

    13 Nova Bila hospital, you were released to go home,

    14 right?

    15 A. At the Nova Bila hospital I just stayed

    16 overnight, because the hospital itself was a target of

    17 shell attacks. We were told that I wouldn't be secure

    18 even there. And that is why I went to Busovaca and I

    19 remained there for some ten days, until I started -- I

    20 could walk. And that's when I went home.

    21 Q. Where were you staying at Busovaca?

    22 A. That was the military hospital. That's how

    23 we called it.

    24 Q. That was an outlet of the Nova Bila hospital?

    25 A. Yes, but it was not a regular hospital

  83. 1 before. It was used as a war hospital. It was a

    2 kindergarten before.

    3 Q. So there were just beds there?

    4 A. Correct.

    5 Q. But that was not a medical centre at

    6 Busovaca?

    7 A. No, because it too was shelled.

    8 Q. And after that you went home?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you ever return to Kaonik to resume your

    11 duty there or somewhere else?

    12 A. No not as a guard. I didn't even go to the

    13 defence lines. I went to the wood plank factory called

    14 Mediappen and I was employed there because there was

    15 some special production during war-time.

    16 Q. So it was another form of labour duty?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. After the events that you have described, did

    19 you have any connections whatsoever with the military

    20 of any kind? Were you involved in any military unit

    21 after that?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. So that was all. Do you know, Mr. Bagaric,

    24 anything about the Muslims who were at Kaonik, and you

    25 said that they were taken out for labour duty, do you

  84. 1 know that they too were taken out for -- to be used as

    2 human shields? Do you know anything about that?

    3 A. No, I don't know anything about that, because

    4 I wouldn't accompany them.

    5 Q. Do you know, when they were taken out from

    6 Kaonik, these Muslims, were their hands tied up or did

    7 they go with their arms free?

    8 A. No, their hands were not tied up, because the

    9 car would come, they would climb and go.

    10 Q. I see. Were you present when they would

    11 return from the labour duty, when they were returned to

    12 Kaonik? Were you there sometimes when they returned?

    13 A. Well, mostly no, because our shifts lasted

    14 for about two hours, and they would stay more at that

    15 digging. So somebody else would be there when they

    16 would return. Maybe I was there once or twice, but not

    17 more than that.

    18 Q. But sometimes you were there?

    19 A. Yes. But not on many occasions.

    20 Q. So when you were there on a few occasions,

    21 did you notice that some of those people who would be

    22 returned, whether they were hurt, wounded or something

    23 like that?

    24 A. No. No. We even joked. They would ask me

    25 whether I had cigarettes and things like that. And

  85. 1 they would go to take a rest. We didn't have much time

    2 for talk.

    3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Bagaric, who would bring --

    4 who had brought the Muslim civilians at Kaonik, and how

    5 did they arrive there in the first place? Do you know

    6 anything about that?

    7 A. Well, I was not there when they were brought

    8 in, but I heard that the HVO would bring them, because

    9 they were in the -- in their zone of jurisdiction, so

    10 there was fighting there and they were behind the

    11 backs, so to say, of the defence lines, and that's why

    12 they were brought there for their own security and for

    13 our security. Because we feared because of that. And

    14 some people even liked that.

    15 I have an example where my neighbour, who

    16 returned home in the meantime, at Skradno, who said

    17 that he was -- that it was his happiest time when he

    18 was taken there, because the shells were landing and

    19 you never knew where it would hit.

    20 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Bagaric, whether there

    21 were some cases where those people would come of their

    22 own free will at Kaonik to feel more secure and to seek

    23 shelter from war operations?

    24 A. I heard about it, but I haven't seen it

    25 personally.


    1 Q. Mr. Bagaric, while you were on duty, were you

    2 ever employed at the gate, at a steel gate, at the

    3 entrance to the entire complex?

    4 A. No, I never worked there, but I was wounded

    5 there.

    6 Q. Mr. Bagaric, thank you very much. I have no

    7 further questions for you.

    8 Your Honours, we have no further questions

    9 for this witness.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda

    12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bagaric.

    13 A. Good afternoon.

    14 Q. The Prosecution sympathises with you over the

    15 loss of your son during the conflict in 1993. Having

    16 said that, I wish to ask a few questions from you on

    17 behalf of the Prosecution.

    18 A. The witness nods and says yes.

    19 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you said that after your

    20 secondary school you went to work in a company. And

    21 what was the name of that company that you worked in,

    22 after secondary school?

    23 A. I have to correct myself there, because I

    24 first worked in a company, in a metal processing

    25 company, and second company which I mentioned is


  87. 1 Pappero.

    2 Q. And what is the name of the metal processing

    3 company that you worked in?

    4 A. The company for the processing -- for metal

    5 processing, that was the name.

    6 Q. And then you moved on to the Pappero company?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Is that where you worked until you retired?

    9 A. Yes. The Pappero company Zenica for the

    10 professional rehabilitation of invalids.

    11 Q. Did you at any point work in any other place,

    12 any other company?

    13 A. Yes, shortly before the war, at the mineral

    14 company outlet from Belgrade, I worked for four years.

    15 Q. And what was that company called?

    16 A. Just Mineral Belgrade.

    17 Q. Did you ever work in a company in the

    18 Vatrostalna factory?

    19 A. Never.

    20 Q. You never worked in the Vatrostalna factory?

    21 A. No. Only the companies that I've already

    22 listed. But during the war I worked in a Mediappen

    23 company in Busovaca.

    24 Q. And that was a company, was it called timber?

    25 A. Yes, that's correct. But at that time it was


  88. 1 not operating for that purpose.

    2 Q. If it is said that you ever did work in the

    3 Vatrostalna company, that would not be correct?

    4 A. Completely incorrect.

    5 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Bagaric, you said you

    6 were first mobilised to the HVO after your retirement?

    7 A. I was first mobilised at the HVO, but I am

    8 not retired, not even now.

    9 Q. Yes. You said you were neither retired nor

    10 employed. Yes. I remember that. And after you were

    11 mobilised, you said from there, from your mobilisation,

    12 you were transferred to the Domobran unit. Am I right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And when was that?

    15 A. In 1993.

    16 Q. Do you remember when in 1993 you were

    17 transferred to the Domobran unit?

    18 A. Well, sometime in April, 1993.

    19 Q. So it was after being transferred to the

    20 Domobran unit in April of 1993 that you were assigned

    21 to the Kaonik Prison facility?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And who transferred you to the Domobran from

    24 the HVO?

    25 A. It was at my personal request, because of my


    1 poor health.

    2 Q. And at whose instance was the transfer

    3 affected? You requested, but who ordered the transfer

    4 from the HVO to the Domobran unit?

    5 A. I applied to my commander, and he said that

    6 he would see what he could do about it, and tomorrow he

    7 said that I should report for duty in Busovaca at the

    8 Domobrans. They are in Busovaca.

    9 Q. Did you get any written transfer order from

    10 your commander?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Who was your commander who asked you to

    13 report the following day to the Kaonik facility in

    14 Busovaca?

    15 A. Cosic. I can't remember his first name. And

    16 he has a brother by the name of Jago.

    17 Q. Now, you said you were injured on the day

    18 when you arrived for work in the Kaonik facility, you

    19 were injured at the gate when a shell hit you and you

    20 sustained injury?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And do you remember when that was?

    23 A. Well, I said it was on the 10th of June

    24 1993. That's what I said.

    25 Q. Thank you. You were, upon being assigned to


  90. 1 the Kaonik facility, you said in evidence that you had

    2 to guard the building in which the Muslim civilian --

    3 civilian prisoners were being detained?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And you knew most of those Muslim civilian

    6 prisoners who were detained there, as you already said

    7 in evidence?

    8 A. Yes, I knew them.

    9 Q. And you knew them to be persons of --

    10 citizens of the community who were good citizens and

    11 citizens who had not had any breaches with the law, or

    12 not any serious criminals of the area?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And do you know why those Muslim prisoners

    15 were being detained in the Kaonik Prison?

    16 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I suppose

    17 that they were taken there because of their own

    18 security.

    19 Q. Now, the Domobrans unit did not have any

    20 weapons, did it?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Did the other guards of the Domobran unit

    23 carry weapons?

    24 A. (No translation).

    25 Q. And how do you think you would have secured


  91. 1 their safety in the case of an attack, or in the case

    2 of an invasion, when you had no weapons with you, and

    3 the Domobran unit did not have any weapons with you.

    4 Neither you nor any of the guards had any weapons with

    5 you.

    6 A. We were not sent there to try to fend off an

    7 attack, but we were sent there just to be handy, and to

    8 help those people when they need something.

    9 Q. But you said a while ago they were sent there

    10 for their own safety and their own security, didn't

    11 you?

    12 A. No. I said that they were taken there

    13 because of their own security, as far as I remember.

    14 Q. And you have not been able to secure them in

    15 the facility without any effective weapons being given

    16 to the Domobrans unit, of which you are a member?

    17 A. Well, yes, that's correct.

    18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bagaric, you said that you

    19 know that Muslim prisoners were taken to the trenches

    20 from the prison facility.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. I take it, that -- and then you said that you

    23 saw them being taken on one or two occasions. Or you

    24 saw them being returned on one or two occasions?

    25 A. Both. Both. I saw both.


  92. 1 Q. And now your uncle was also a person who was

    2 taken for trench-digging?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. He was taken from his home for

    5 trench-digging? He was not taken from a prison

    6 facility --

    7 A. Yes, that's correct.

    8 Q. And he was not taken from a prison facility

    9 to dig trenches?

    10 A. (Nod).

    11 Q. You sought Mr. Aleksovski's permission to

    12 take a prisoner home, didn't you?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. What did you say to Mr. Aleksovski?

    15 A. I told him that this man has asked me to do

    16 him a favour. And that's what I did.

    17 Q. And what did he say to you?

    18 A. Well, he said, "Yes, okay. But you have to

    19 bring him back in the evening."

    20 Q. So he gave you permission to take a prisoner

    21 home and be brought back to the prison facility in the

    22 evening?

    23 A. That's correct.

    24 Q. But there are -- were there instances on

    25 which you -- were there other instances in which you


  93. 1 took prisoners home?

    2 A. That is the case. That is the instance.

    3 Q. And you also, Mr. Aleksovski also gave you

    4 permission to let the prisoners out of the prison

    5 facility during the time you were on guard duty?

    6 A. Outside just in front of the prison building,

    7 actually.

    8 Q. And for that as well, I believe you asked

    9 Mr. Aleksovski for such permission?

    10 A. Yes. I can't remember whether I sought that

    11 permission from Aleksovski or from somebody else who

    12 was there, military police or, I don't know how to call

    13 them.

    14 Q. And what did you in fact -- what permission

    15 did you in fact seek from either Mr. Aleksovski or from

    16 the military police who were there?

    17 A. Well, it went like this. During my two hours

    18 on duty I had at least ten interventions from civilians

    19 who were kept in that prison. They actually asked to

    20 be taken out to go to the toilet. And I had to open

    21 and close the door again, and I was -- I then asked

    22 whether I could let them out, all, because I knew that

    23 they wouldn't usurp it, but I never they had to seek

    24 permission, which was granted, to take them out while I

    25 was on duty. And when the two hours elapsed, I would


  94. 1 bring them back. Even if they need not go to the

    2 toilet.

    3 Q. And you were given that permission to let

    4 them out of the prison facility and return -- and be

    5 returned to the facility during the period of your

    6 shift of guard duty?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you know of -- for how long

    9 -- I withdraw that question, Your Honour.

    10 Mr. Bagaric, you were in the camp from about

    11 April until the 10th of June, you were on guard duty

    12 during that entire period?

    13 A. Well, it was not until June. I was there

    14 since April, or from April until the beginning of May.

    15 And I was wounded because I was waiting for transfer --

    16 to be transferred to the defence lines in Podjele as a

    17 Domobran.

    18 Q. And when did that -- when you were wounded, I

    19 thought you were wounded on the 10th of June, 1993?

    20 A. That's correct. But at that time I was not

    21 there as a guard. I was not guarding the prisoners.

    22 Q. What was your duty at that time, at the time

    23 you were wounded?

    24 A. On the 10th of June, you mean?

    25 Q. Yes, on the 10th of June.


  95. 1 A. I was an HVO soldier.

    2 Q. So after May of 19 -- so your evidence is

    3 that from April you were a member of the Domobran unit

    4 'til May of 1993, and from May again you became a

    5 member of the HVO?

    6 A. That's correct.

    7 Q. What was the nature of your duties as a

    8 member of the HVO within the Kaonik facility?

    9 A. I was a soldier.

    10 Q. What were the nature of your duties as a

    11 soldier within the Kaonik facility?

    12 A. I was at the defence lines.

    13 Q. So at that time, when you were a member of

    14 the HVO, you did not perform any duties within the

    15 Kaonik Prison facility?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Now, during your period, did you come across

    18 a guard by the name of Zarko Petrovic within the Kaonik

    19 facility?

    20 A. I did not return there any longer, any more,

    21 because there was no need for me to return.

    22 Q. I understand that, Mr. Bagaric. But my

    23 question is, during the time you were there in Kaonik,

    24 that's from April to May, you remember a guard by the

    25 name of Zarko Petrovic, who was also in the Kaonik


  96. 1 facility?

    2 A. No. No. A guard?

    3 Q. A guard by the name of Zarko Petrovic?

    4 A. No. No.

    5 Q. Was there anybody by the name of Zarko

    6 Petrovic, a guard or a member of the HVO, a member of

    7 the military police?

    8 A. As a guard, no.

    9 Q. My question was: As a member of the military

    10 police did you know anybody by the name of Zarko

    11 Petrovic?

    12 A. I heard that there was a person by that name,

    13 but I don't know what was he doing there.

    14 Q. And from what you heard, to which unit or to

    15 which company did he belong to, Zarko Petrovic?

    16 A. No, I wouldn't know that. I don't.

    17 Q. But you heard that there was a Zarko Petrovic

    18 who was in the Kaonik Prison facility, although you do

    19 not know in what capacity he was there?

    20 A. No, I even -- I didn't even hear that he was

    21 in prison. But I know that there was a Zarko Petrovic

    22 in Busovaca, a person by that name in Busovaca.

    23 Q. I asked you whether you knew somebody by the

    24 name of Zarko Petrovic in the Kaonik Prison facility,

    25 as a guard of the Domobran unit or as a member of the


  97. 1 HVO, the military police or any other member of the

    2 HVO.

    3 A. As you are saying now, no, no I don't.

    4 Q. Do you know of a member of the HVO by the

    5 name of Miro Maric, who was within the Kaonik facility

    6 during that time that you worked there?

    7 A. Oh, yes. I know that name, yes.

    8 Q. And who was he?

    9 A. He was a member of the military police.

    10 Q. And as a member of the military police he was

    11 stationed at the building by the gate, by the entrance

    12 gate to the camp, was he?

    13 A. Whether he was at the gate or not, I only saw

    14 him there as a policeman.

    15 Q. And what was he wearing at the time -- on the

    16 occasion that you saw him? What uniform was he dressed

    17 in?

    18 A. An HVO uniform.

    19 Q. Did he carry any weapons on those occasions?

    20 A. I didn't see that. I don't know. I didn't

    21 see it.

    22 Q. And do you also recall the name of Marko

    23 Krilic, who was also in the prison facility during the

    24 time you were there, either as a guard or a member of

    25 the HVO?


  98. 1 A. Yes, yes, I know Marko. I know him and I saw

    2 him.

    3 Q. And what was Marko Krilic?

    4 A. An HVO policeman.

    5 Q. And what was he wearing when he was in the

    6 camp, in the prison facility?

    7 A. The same clothes as any other HVO soldiers.

    8 Q. And also Stipo Juric, did you know a person

    9 by the name of Stipo Juric who was a member of the HVO?

    10 A. Not as a member, but I know Stipo Juric, who

    11 I believe testified here yet.

    12 Q. Yes. I am not talking of the Stipo Juric who

    13 testified yesterday who a member of the Domobrans. I

    14 am asking whether you know of a Stipo Juric who was a

    15 member of the HVO, who was in the Kaonik Prison

    16 facility at the time you were there, from April to May

    17 of 1993?

    18 A. No, I don't know.

    19 Q. Do you know Goran Medugorac, who was also in

    20 the camp, in the prison facility during the time?

    21 A. When I was there, there was no person by the

    22 name of Medugorac. I am not aware of that.

    23 Q. You are sure that name doesn't ring a bell in

    24 your mind, Goran Medugorac?

    25 A. I don't know him at all.


  99. 1 Q. Witness, you also said that on occasions you

    2 used to bring alcohol to the camp facility, to the

    3 prison facility.

    4 A. That's correct.

    5 Q. And you got permission before bringing

    6 alcohol to the facility?

    7 A. I didn't ask for it. I did not ask for

    8 that. I would just put it in my pocket and off I go.

    9 Q. You didn't think it was wrong to bring

    10 alcohol to the prison facility, or illegal have brought

    11 alcohol to the prison facility without permission?

    12 A. I did not think about that at all.

    13 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you know Mr. Aleksovski --

    14 when did you first meet Mr. Aleksovski?

    15 A. When I first came to guard the civilians.

    16 Q. You had not met Mr. Aleksovski before that?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. You did not know him from the time he was in

    19 the Zenica penitentiary institution, nor did you know

    20 him at the time he was in the Vatrostalna factory?

    21 A. I didn't know it.

    22 MR. MEDDEGODA: Thank you, Your Honour. No

    23 further questions.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    25 any additional questions for this witness?


  100. 1 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the Defence has

    2 no further questions of this witness.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Bagaric, I have some

    4 questions for you. How many prisoners were there at

    5 the prison when you were there, approximately?

    6 A. I couldn't tell exactly, because while I was

    7 there some went out digging, and how many went there, I

    8 don't know.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, but I asked about

    10 approximate figure, 10, 100, 1.000.

    11 A. 40, 50, 60, maybe around there.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I did not hear the

    13 response. My interpretation was between 45 and 60.

    14 A. 40, 50, 60, more or less.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You took home only one

    16 prisoner; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Why? Did you have a

    19 special relationship with him? Why did you choose this

    20 prisoner to take him home?

    21 A. Because he asked me to.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Other prisoners never

    23 requested this?

    24 A. No. No. They did not. No one of them.

    25 They did not. No, they didn't.


  101. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And if all 60 prisoners

    2 requested that.

    3 A. I would have helped them, yes.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Another question. Did

    5 another colleague of yours also take prisoners home, if

    6 you know?

    7 A. I do not know exactly, but I don't think that

    8 they did.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You told Mr. Mikulicic that

    10 the civilian prisoners who were there for their own

    11 safety and for your safety. Did I understand you

    12 correctly?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: What did you mean when you

    15 say your own safety? I can understand the safety of

    16 the prisoners, but when you said your own safety, what

    17 did you mean by that?

    18 A. I wanted to say that these prisoners who were

    19 of Muslim ethnic background were behind our backs, and

    20 we shot at one another. That is, we shot at Muslims

    21 and Muslims shot back at us. And I don't think that --

    22 and the fact that they were behind us, well, maybe they

    23 would have even signalled to them how many we were

    24 where we were. And maybe they didn't like the fact

    25 that the bullets would be flying, maybe, over us onto


  102. 1 them.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So that is why you are also

    3 saying that the civilian prisoners who were there did

    4 not -- did not need -- did not need to be guarded by

    5 weapons?

    6 A. I don't know if it was necessary for them,

    7 and there were also not guarded with weapons. If, when

    8 we changed duties, we would give over that old rifle

    9 that we had, so then people -- I remember an old

    10 Russian automatic rifle with a drum on the top. So

    11 that's what we had.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, Mr. Bagaric. I

    13 believe that we have no further questions of you. We

    14 thank you very much for coming here, and we wish you a

    15 safe return to your place. Thank you, Mr. Bagaric.

    16 (The witness withdrew)

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the Defence

    19 would like to call a fresh witness. However, we are in

    20 a similar situation as yesterday. It's 15 past one.

    21 The Defence would prefer to examine this witness

    22 continuously and we again ask the Trial Chamber for a

    23 decision on this.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We agree, and we would also

    25 like to point out that we only had a single break


  103. 1 today, and I apologise for having forgotten about the

    2 second break. So maybe it is just as well that we

    3 finish a bit earlier today. Thank you very much and we

    4 will see you tomorrow.

    5 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    6 1:15 p.m., to the reconvened on

    7 Thursday, the 1 day of July, 1998,

    8 at 10.00 a.m.