Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 202

1 Monday, 5 May 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [Pre-Trial Conference]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Obrenovic and Nikolic not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, call the case,

8 please, Madam Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, this is case number IT-02-60-PT,

10 the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic, Dragan Obrenovic, Dragan Jokic

11 and Momir Nikolic.

12 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the appearances, please? Yes, for the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, my

15 name is Peter McCloskey and with me today are Anne Davis, Stacy de la

16 Torre and Janet Stewart, case manager.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President. On behalf of

19 Mr. Blagojevic, I'm Michael Karnavas, counsel, and with me is Suzana

20 Tomanovic, co-counsel.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

24 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, I

25 am Dusan Slijepcevic from Belgrade and I am representing the accused,

Page 203

1 Dragan Obrenovic. The lead counsel, Mr. Wilson, is not present today. I

2 apologise on his behalf because he was not able to be with us this

3 afternoon, thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours, I'm Miodrag

6 Stojanovic, defender of the accused Dragan Jokic. Together with me today

7 are Ms. Cynthia Sinatra as co-counsel, Chris Murphy as case manager and

8 Dragoslav Djukic as interpreter.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 MR. KIRSCH: Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Stefan

11 Kirsch. I'm here on behalf of Mr. Nikolic and the co-counsel and I also

12 apologise that the lead counsel, Mr. Londrovic is not present here.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This Trial Chamber has received

14 two motions for the absence of Mr. Obrenovic and the leading counsel as

15 well as a written motion filed by the counsel of Nikolic. It says that it

16 is his understanding from the decision not to attend the Pre-Trial

17 Conference to be held this afternoon and to waive his appearance and the

18 presence in the courtroom on this day. Those two motions are granted. We

19 will proceed without the presence of the two accused and their leading

20 counsels.

21 In addition to the counsel, we notice that the Jokic team have a

22 translator present in the courtroom to assist the lead and co-counsel in

23 communicating with each other, as well as their clients. We have to

24 remind the parties that interpreter should not be allowed to make any

25 observation and intervention during the proceedings. And they should

Page 204

1 always bear in mind Rule 97 of lawyer and client privilege. Is that

2 understood? I guess it's yes.

3 Let me turn to the accused. Mr. Blagojevic, can you hear the

4 proceedings in a language that you understand?

5 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE LIU: How about your health?

7 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] It's not the best.

8 Namely, I am undergoing therapy for high blood pressure.

9 JUDGE LIU: I understand that this is a long case ahead of us so

10 be careful of your health. Do you have anything to complain about? Do

11 you have any special matters to bring to our attention at this moment?

12 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Your Honours,

13 I would openly and clearly like to state here that I do not have a lawyer

14 present here today who would represent me as my Defence counsel. I

15 initiated this question a long time ago. However, things became a little

16 complicated and due to a series of circumstances, wherein I was thwarted

17 in different ways, I am forced to state this here and I would ask you

18 kindly that the Chamber, as a guarantor and the protector of the rights of

19 the accused also protect me in this sense.

20 What I would like to say is that my lawyer, who introduced himself

21 in that capacity has actually been dismissed by me and is no longer my

22 Defence counsel.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm surprised to hear that. I have to draw your

24 attention to the decision made by the Registrar dated the 8th of April,

25 2003, that your request has been dismissed and you did not make an appeal

Page 205

1 on that decision so the Registrar regards that decision is final. And at

2 this stage, especially at the very start of a new trial, you still make

3 such kind of observations. Do you have any specific reason for doing

4 that? What is your specific request to this Trial Chamber?

5 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] First, regarding the

6 decision by the Registry, it did not pertain to this dismissal of my

7 lawyer. It pertained to something regarding my Defence counsel and so on

8 and so forth but that is not actually it. So the Registry did not find it

9 fit to respond to me or to provide me with the opportunity in any way or

10 to help me so that I could resolve the issue of the Defence counsel.

11 Next, I think it is sufficient if I say that I absolutely have no longer

12 any confidence in Mr. Karnavas and it would be a catastrophe for him to

13 continue to represent me in this case and to defend me This can be

14 substantiated in several ways but, please, do not exhaust me. I have the

15 right to this and I would be the sorriest person on earth if I had to tell

16 myself now that I should trust somebody that I'm not able to trust due to

17 his actions to date. I am now very clear in this and you may -- what I'm

18 saying now, I would like you to be aware of that and you can ask me to

19 provide any kind of argumentation, and I have the arguments that I think

20 that the trust that has been lost cannot be replaced, particularly in

21 light of the events of the past year, especially since last July.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think your Defence team has been working with

23 you over a year and at this very moment, especially at the start of a new

24 trial, you raise this issue to us, and I fail to see that there is any new

25 reasons for your motion. If you stick to your original proposals, frankly

Page 206

1 speaking, I could tell you that your motion has been dismissed but if you

2 have any new request or any new motion, we would like to hear from you.

3 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask

4 you one thing, to make it possible for the gentleman not to be here to

5 deal with the question of my Defence because he is unprepared for that and

6 he is not going to do it. So in those terms, I am asking for assistance

7 from this Chamber, if it is able to provide me with this assistance.

8 Everything else is immaterial.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, from Chamber's aspect, we see that your Defence

10 team did a quite good job, if not the best. We are quite satisfied that

11 your interests having safeguarded by this Defence team and we have no

12 reason to change your Defence at this moment.

13 Well, you may sit down. If you found some particular --

14 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you

15 permit me, Your Honours, please, what I have just said, I think I'm of

16 sound mind, and I think that I really do know with what kind of values and

17 things I am dealing with, and I think that I would like to be able to work

18 in a normal, legal way. Please do not thwart me in this. Make it

19 possible for me for somebody to represent me who would do that

20 responsibly, legally, and properly. This lawyer here did not pass the

21 test and I'm no longer interested in him. Please do not tell me that he

22 should continue to represent me because he is really not able to do that.

23 He has been dismissed and we can no longer go back on that. If there is

24 some higher power to force things in this aspect, then that is something

25 else.

Page 207

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Blagojevic, if you have some new requests

2 apart from the original one, this Trial Chamber might consider to assign

3 an independent counsel to help you draft a motion to bring the matter to

4 our attention but if you stick to the original reasonings, I'm afraid that

5 this case is closed. You may sit down, please.

6 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Jokic, can you follow the proceedings in a

8 language that you understand?

9 THE ACCUSED JOKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: When did you arrive in The Hague from your provisional

11 release?

12 THE ACCUSED JOKIC: [Interpretation] I arrived on the 29th of

13 April.

14 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready for the new trial?

15 THE ACCUSED JOKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Do you have anything to complain about at this stage?

17 THE ACCUSED JOKIC: [Interpretation] No, I do not, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down.

19 This Trial Chamber has noticed that Mr. Jokic arrived in the

20 detention unit on the 29th of April, 2003, after the provisional release,

21 and I will not ask the same questions concerning of the language issues to

22 the accused every day but whenever there is a problem for you to follow

23 the proceedings, please let me know.

24 This is a Pre-Trial Conference held in accordance with Rule 73 bis

25 and a decision made by the Pre-Trial Judge to discuss some specific

Page 208

1 matters with the aim to facilitate and prepare the case. By the order of

2 the President, dated 1st April, 2003, this bench, the Trial Chamber I,

3 section A is composed of three judges. Sitting on my right is His

4 Excellency, Judge Vassylenko from Ukraine. Sitting on my right is Her

5 Excellency, Judge Argibay from Argentina. My name is Liu, Daqun from

6 China, the Presiding Judge of Trial Chamber I of the Tribunal. Frankly

7 speaking, all of us have been sitting in at least one case before this

8 Tribunal, which means that we are somehow familiar with the practice and

9 the jurisprudence of this Tribunal.

10 On the other hand, we are all from civil law legal systems and

11 none of us from English-speaking countries. Since most of the counsels of

12 both parties are from common law jurisdictions, there might be some

13 frictions between judges and the parties in the future proceedings of this

14 case. If this happens, we believe that the rule of the procedure and

15 evidence of this Tribunal should prevail. If the both parties would like

16 to use some specific practice or terminology during the proceedings,

17 please be patient and explain to us.

18 Today we have a very heavy agenda. There are several issues to be

19 discussed, namely outstanding issues, outstanding motions, witnesses,

20 exhibits, case presentation, and possibly any agreed facts. Let us begin

21 with the easiest one, that is the case presentation.

22 The first matter of the case presentation is the scheduling. I

23 would like to draw the attention of all the parties to a decision we just

24 rendered today, that this trial shall commence on Thursday, 8th May 2003

25 at 1415 hours in Courtroom III with the opening statement of the

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Page 210

1 Prosecution, and we'll hear the first witness next Monday.

2 The trial will commence on five-day-a-week schedule. The Trial

3 Chamber may adjust its schedule as necessary due to witness-related

4 issues, specific requests by the parties or other unforeseen

5 circumstances. For instance, we may possibly reserve one day every second

6 week to address any outstanding procedural issues or motions that may

7 arise. We will inform the parties beforehand, with the aim for the proper

8 arrangement of calling of the witnesses. If there is any short break, the

9 Trial Chamber would like to advise the parties the schedule will be

10 determined based on the length of witness's testimony and we will adjust

11 it in accordance with the completion of witness testimony because we could

12 not afford to have a witness under oath stay in The Hague for a quite long

13 time so that to avoid any contaminations of that witness.

14 At the same time, we are advised by the Registrar that each break

15 between sittings should at least be 30 minutes. If we sit half day, each

16 sitting will last about 70 minutes. If for a whole day, 90 minutes.

17 Because we have more than one accused and a large Defence team in this

18 case.

19 The case will be heard in Courtroom III throughout the trial, I

20 guess only this Trial Chamber could hold such a large team. There is a

21 question I would like to address to both parties, that is the language of

22 the proceedings. It seems to us that no member of the Prosecution or any

23 of the Defence team use French. Do any of the parties object to not

24 keeping a French transcript in this case? Of course, the audio tapes in

25 French will still be available to any interested parties and as French is

Page 211

1 an official language of the Tribunal, simultaneous translation into French

2 will still be available to anyone following the proceedings. All the

3 decisions and judgements will still be translated into French. Any

4 objections? Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. How about Defence counsel?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: We have no objection, Your Honour.

11 MR. KIRSCH: No objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation. So it has

13 been decided that no French transcript will be available during the whole

14 proceedings.

15 As we have been advised that the Prosecution estimated its opening

16 statement will be two or three hours, is that all right, Mr. McCloskey?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. That is what we are planning.

18 JUDGE LIU: And your first witness will last for three sessions?

19 And do you have any new suggestions as to the time for -- time frame for

20 the first witness?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: The first witness, as you know, testified at

22 length in a previous trial and we have been able to cut down the number of

23 exhibits and some of the time of his testimony from that trial so we are

24 confident that the direct can be done within about three days. It's hard

25 to come up with a more precise estimate than that but that's the counsel

Page 212

1 that has been dealing with Mr. Ruez tells me three days is doable.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have to tell you that the Defence team, the

3 whole team, will have more or less, more or less, the same amount of time

4 in their conducting of the cross-examination and there is also the time

5 for you for re-examination, so probably the first witness will take about

6 six days or seven days.

7 Up to now we haven't received any indications on the exhibits you

8 are going to tender through this witness. Are you going to file any list

9 of exhibits concerning the first witness? I'm not asking you to file it

10 right now but maybe before one or two days, you could file those exhibits.

11 Particularly for the first witness.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we have chosen those exhibits reduced down

13 from the Krstic exhibits that he used and from some other exhibits and we

14 should have hard copies available by the end of the week.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Could we make it a rule that

16 whenever you call a witness, one day or two days before, you should file

17 that list of exhibits so that we could prepare which documents you are

18 going to use during the direct examination of that witness?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, no problem.

20 JUDGE LIU: As well as for the witness list, would you please file

21 a list, at least one week in advance, for the witnesses you are going to

22 call? Or any upcoming witnesses in two weeks or three weeks' notice. Of

23 course that's subject to any changes which is unexpected.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. No problem. As you know, you have a list of

25 the first 18 witnesses and we can continue to do that, no problem.

Page 213

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. There are still some matters

2 concerning with the Defence team. I understand that each Defence team

3 will conduct its own cross-examination with one member of the team being

4 responsible for objections and the cross-examination of witnesses.

5 Cross-examination will follow the order of the indictment, unless due to

6 the nature of the specific evidence given by the parties, the Defence team

7 agree unanimously, to proceeds with a different order and inform the Trial

8 Chamber of the changed order in advance. Is that all right?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: That's fine, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is fine for us, Your

12 Honours.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: We have agreed to this at the last 65 ter

14 conference and we do not have any further remarks on this matter.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

16 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, I also agree to this procedure.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So it's settled.

18 At this moment, this Trial Chamber would like to know again

19 whether any accused will make a statement in accordance with Rule 84 bis.

20 Mr. Blagojevic?

21 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not

22 able to do so right now because I have not agreed to defend myself. The

23 lawyer who is present today as my Defence lawyer from the point in time

24 when I dismissed it, I no longer recognise as my Defence attorney and

25 whatever he says here is superfluous. If you allow me to choose a lawyer,

Page 214

1 then I will be able to proceed as usual with the usual procedure, but it

2 would be very difficult for me to have to defend myself. It's something

3 that I never considered.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, from the Rules of Procedure I understand that

5 you have the right to make a statement at any time during the proceedings.

6 The particular question I'm going to ask you is that are you going to make

7 a statement right after the opening statement delivered by the

8 Prosecution? Could I guess that your answer is no at this moment?

9 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you may take it as

10 that, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

12 Mr. Jokic?

13 THE ACCUSED JOKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not wish to

14 make a statement after the Prosecutor's presentation.

15 JUDGE LIU: Which does not mean that you will not make any

16 statement during the whole proceedings, am I right? You may have that

17 chance in the future.

18 THE ACCUSED JOKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if I decide so, I will

19 notify you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

21 Well, another issue is the outstanding motions. We have the 92

22 bis motions, 94 bis motions, but we prefer to defer the 92 bis motions at

23 a later stage. Let's come to the 94 bis motions. The Prosecution's

24 motion of 14 February, 2003, is currently under consideration by this

25 Trial Chamber, and will be ruled in due course. At this moment, I would

Page 215

1 like to inform both parties that in the coming weeks, it may require

2 additional oral submissions from the parties on experts in relation to the

3 both 92 bis and 94 bis motions, and that they will be informed in advance

4 of any such discussions.

5 Another matter is the motion for leave to amend the witness list

6 filed 17th April, 2003. Up to now, only one accused filed a response to

7 this motion and was silent on the issue of the two additional witnesses.

8 We understand that the motion seeks to add two witnesses, the witnesses

9 has been identified by the Prosecution in the course of the investigations

10 are therefore new. The Prosecution states in the motion that all the

11 statements and information reports, relating to these witnesses have been

12 disclosed to the Defence. Is that true, Mr. McCloskey?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure it is, Your Honour. We don't have any

14 reason to believe it's not, and we've received nothing new since this

15 motion was filed.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. As no response has been received within

17 the prescribed time frame, the Trial Chamber would like to grant the

18 motion right now. It's granted.

19 The next issue is the Prosecution's motion to supplement exhibit

20 list filed on the 23rd April, 2003. Still there is no response from the

21 accused, and the deadline for the response is the 7th of May. The motion

22 seeks to add the following documents to the exhibit list: The first one,

23 a video compilation, most of the videos already disclosed and identified.

24 However the compilation has recently been complicated. The Prosecution

25 states it has been disclosed to the Defence.

Page 216

1 Two, six video footage making up part of the video compilations

2 referred to above. Motion does not state whether they are disclosed or

3 not.

4 Three, intercepts, dated July to October, 1995, obtained by SFOR.

5 Motion does not state whether they are disclosed or not.

6 Four, English translations of MUP documents added by the Trial

7 Chamber's decision 20th March, 2003. Motion does not state whether they

8 are disclosed or not.

9 Logbook from Zvornik hospital obtained by the OTP in June, 2003.

10 Motion does not state whether they are disclosed or not.

11 Documents that will be relied on by the handwriting analyst.

12 Motion does not state whether it is disclosed or not.

13 The last piece is the two documents referred to by Butler in his

14 updated military narrative. Motion does not state whether they are

15 disclosed or not.

16 Mr. McCloskey, would you explain for us whether they are -- all

17 those documents have been properly disclosed to Defence team?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, they have, and counsel have

19 had that material, each probably for a different amount of time, but we

20 haven't had any real discovery problems thus far. Counsel has most of our

21 material and we are continually -- in continual contact with them when we

22 find that they don't have something. So as far as I know, they have all

23 this material.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. At this moment, we would like to

25 ask Defence counsel whether any of the Defence team would like to respond

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Page 218

1 to this motion.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, we have received the disclosed

3 material, we don't object to the Prosecution's motion.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not object

6 to the motion either.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all these exhibits

9 that the Prosecutor disclosed, we have received, and we do not object to

10 their admission.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

12 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour the Defence for Mr. Nikolic has decided

13 not to object to this motion.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Here I have to clarify one

15 thing. We are not admitting those documents or materials into evidence at

16 this moment. They have to be dealt with piece by piece when the case

17 arrives. So as I understand that, the Defence counsel do not have the

18 intention to respond and they do not have any objections for us to grant

19 that motion from the Prosecution. Am I right?


21 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, Your Honour I have to say that I have

22 not seen the SFOR intercept information although Mr. McCloskey and

23 Ms. Stewart say that it has been disclosed. This is information that

24 could be terribly relevant and decisive in Mr. Jokic's case and I'd like

25 to have an extension of 24 hours or 48 hours to file a written motion

Page 219

1 deciding on whether we have any objections to the SFOR intercept

2 information that Mr. McCloskey is discussing.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's reasonable. Mr. McCloskey, are you going

4 to make some explanation on that? I just want to make sure whether this

5 kind of material has been disclosed to the Defence counsel, especially for

6 the Defence team of Mr. Jokic.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, absolutely been put in her

8 locker, there is not much of significance that we could see, though they

9 may find something significant, but they certainly had it for a while and

10 I don't see any problem.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes?

12 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I don't know Mr. McCloskey's definition

13 of a while but we have had four large boxes of disclosure in the last few

14 days and we have not had the opportunity to review all of the documents.

15 If the Court would please just grant us an extension of a few days to make

16 sure that these documents are not what they could possibly be as SFOR

17 intercepts because part of our case is -- has to do with intercepts and

18 it's very important to Mr. Jokic's Defence.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, you have to understand that as I said before,

20 that we are not dealing with the admission of these documents into the

21 evidence. We are just dealing with the motion filed by the Prosecution on

22 that. Since the Prosecution said that the disclosure is completed, and

23 there is no substantial, if I say, substantial objections to this motion,

24 we will orally rule that the motion has been granted. Of course, at the

25 same time, the Defence counsel of Mr. Jokic still have time to study and

Page 220

1 to do some research concerning those documents and if you have some

2 problems with those documents, when the Prosecution are using those

3 documents, you have the full opportunity to challenge their validity and

4 reliability on that. Is that all right?

5 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I would prefer of course that the Court

6 admit them subject to a response on the intercept information, but if they

7 are admitted then we will write a formal motion challenging their

8 authenticity and reliability.

9 JUDGE LIU: Of course you could do that. So we will rule that we

10 will grant the motion from the Prosecution at this moment. Thank you very

11 much for your cooperation.

12 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: The next issue is about the witnesses. How many

14 witnesses are there on your list, Mr. McCloskey, in this case, the whole

15 case?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: About 149. And hopefully nothing more than in the

17 80s for actual witnesses, given the 92 bis law and other avenues at our

18 disposal not to hear witnesses.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's a large number, I must confess. But of

20 course there will be some adjustments of the lists according to the

21 decisions made by this Trial Chamber concerning the 92 bis and 94 bis

22 motions, as well as the future developments of this case.

23 And the Prosecution has already submitted a list of its intended

24 first 18 witnesses on the 27th March, 2003, to the Defence and the Trial

25 Chamber. Are there any changes concerning the first bunch of witnesses at

Page 221

1 this moment?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: It appears (redacted)has refused to

3 testify, so you can take her off the list.

4 And for the rest of the list, nothing definitive at this time

5 though we have been considering one of the witnesses as a possible 92 bis

6 witness and we continue to try to see how we might be able to cut down the

7 live witness list and see who may be available for 92 bis and that is a

8 matter of ongoing efforts on our part in order to reduce this witness

9 list.

10 JUDGE LIU: I appreciate very much your efforts in that direction.

11 But if there is any changes of the witness lists, please inform us as well

12 as the Defence team, as soon as possible so that we could prepare.

13 The next issue is about the protective measures. Up to now, we

14 notice that the Prosecution has not filed any motion for the protective

15 measures for any witnesses at this stage. I believe that the Prosecution

16 has been advised to file a motion for any of the first 18 witnesses for

17 whom it will seek closed session or voice distortion, because of the

18 logistic arrangements in this Tribunal only the request for the closed

19 session or voice distortion need a motion. As for other witnesses, for

20 their protective measures, the parties should have them indicated in the

21 witness list and then raise it orally in the courtroom. The Chamber will

22 make a ruling at the same time.

23 Mr. McCloskey, are you going to file any motions concerning the

24 protective measures or are you going to give us a new witness list

25 indicating what kind of protective measures you request?

Page 222

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, right now we don't have -- the only

2 witness that may require closed session got closed session in Krstic which

3 as you recall was part of an ongoing order from the Court that we didn't

4 need to make a motion for those witnesses. I don't see any others on this

5 first list that we need closed session or voice distortion for. And I

6 generally try to dissuade witnesses, for obvious reasons, we want public

7 trials, if possible, without trying to over influence them. So on that

8 matter of closed section and voice distortion I don't see that as a

9 problem. A witness may come to me right before they testify and say

10 something but I don't see that as a problem right now. As for pseudonym,

11 this is something that is so subject, as I know Your Honours are familiar,

12 is so subject to the last-minute changes of what is said to each other in

13 the hotel room, and all, and how a person reacts to us when we see them a

14 few days before, that I have not felt confident yet in -- to submit to the

15 Court anything on these witnesses. Some we know from Krstic had

16 pseudonyms and we shortly will be able to provide you with a list and our

17 best estimates of what will involve in terms of pseudonyms but it's hard

18 to say really until witnesses come here at the last moment but I think we

19 can give you a pretty good estimate very soon.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Another matter is the exhibits.

21 Here I'm talking about those exhibits that are not currently on the

22 exhibit list. I understand that during the proceedings, there might be

23 some new exhibits appearing in the possession of the Prosecution or later

24 on at the position of the Defence team but at least we need, at least, two

25 weeks' notice about it, and the parties have to explain as to why the

Page 223

1 evidence has not been on the list and whether it would not be permitted at

2 all. Is that agreeable to both parties that if there is any new evidence

3 appeared, at least you will have two weeks notice beforehand? Yes,

4 Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's fine, Mr. President, as you know there

6 are lots of ongoing investigations and matters do arise and we will

7 endeavour to get this material to the Defence as soon as possible and not

8 use it in court before two weeks, before they have notice.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I just want to try to avoid any preemptive

10 attack by either parties to the other side so that the other party could

11 make some research concerning those newly found materials.

12 As for the tendering and the numbering of the procedures, are

13 there any suggestions from the parties? Because different cases have

14 different practices, you know. I'm free to have suggestions from both

15 parties. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could provide Janet Stewart

17 with the authority to deal with chambers or registry personnel or both to

18 sort out the best practice I would really like to leave it in her and

19 their hands as the people best suited for this. We will go along with

20 whatever they think is best and I'm sure Defence counsel will help out in

21 that process if need be.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a very good suggestion. I hope that both

23 parties, as well as the Registrar could sit together and work out a system

24 for the tendering and the numbering of those documents. I understand

25 there are huge documents in this case. Is that agreeable to the Defence

Page 224

1 parties?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: That's fine with us, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we go along with

5 that proposal.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, we also go

8 along with it.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honours, on behalf of the Nikolic Defence team,

11 I agree.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So before the trial started, the

13 Prosecution and the Defence team, as well as the Registrar, will sit

14 together and work out a system to deal with the documents, as well as the

15 exhibits.

16 The next issue is the agreed facts. Are there any agreed facts

17 between the parties? At this stage, Mr. McCloskey?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm not 100 per cent in memory

19 about it but I can tell you the agreed facts were very few, they didn't --

20 with four different Defence counsel, they really didn't provide much

21 assistance in terms of your burden and duty, so we can provide you a

22 report on what the very few agreed facts are but it hasn't -- it hasn't

23 been much.

24 And we don't think there are any facts that were agreed by

25 everyone.

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Page 226

1 JUDGE LIU: Is that true?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Mr. President, I wouldn't use the --

3 characterise the -- as no efforts were made. It's been our position that

4 the Prosecution has chosen to draft the indictment in the manner in which

5 he saw fit. It's wide-sweeping, it's broad, perhaps way too over broad.

6 It's up to him to prove his case. And to the extent that we were able to

7 meet our obligations under 92 and 94 bis we did so. We think we did so in

8 very good faith. But as far as agreeing facts, I'm afraid that

9 Mr. McCloskey is going to have to prove his case from day one, all the way

10 through.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes?

12 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have already

13 given our opinion, and we also submitted the text to the OTP in March this

14 year.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we talked with the

16 OTP on two occasions, with a view to trying to agree on some of the counts

17 in the indictment and some issues relative -- related to the indictment.

18 I believe that our meetings were constructive and correct, but

19 regrettably, we failed to remove all the differences that existed between

20 the stands of the Defence and the OTP regarding some of the matters raised

21 by the indictment, and we also notified the Trial Chamber at the previous

22 Status Conference.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, on behalf of Mr. Nikolic it is sorry to

25 say that we are still in the same situation we have been in in the last

Page 227

1 Status Conference so to say that there are no agreed facts with our team.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Frankly speaking, I'm very

4 disappointed on this issue. We also read the filings from the Defence

5 team and in some filings the Defence team also mentioned, for instance,

6 the armed conflict, the Srebrenica incidents, as well as the position of

7 their clients, which might be constituted as the agreed facts. If there

8 is any agreed facts between the parties, there is no need to prove it. So

9 I appeal to both parties to work together once again to try to find out

10 whether there is any agreed facts in this case so that, to facilitate the

11 proceedings of this trial. But I'm not forcing our proposal at this stage

12 on both parties.

13 Yes, the next issue is the most complicated one, that is 92 bis

14 witnesses. We have been seized with two motions filed by the Prosecution

15 for 92 bis witnesses, the total number are 60 witnesses. This afternoon,

16 the Trial Chamber will discuss two categories of witnesses with the

17 parties, namely the Bosnian Muslim witnesses and the DutchBat witnesses.

18 During the following proceedings, if one party feels that you need

19 the private session at any time, please draw our attention to that,

20 because we might touch upon some identities of the witnesses.

21 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, especially for the Bosnian

23 Muslim witnesses, most of those are very likely to ask for pseudonyms. I

24 know from my experience it's hard to tell which ones so if we do start

25 discussing the Bosnian Muslim witnesses, it would be a good idea to be in

Page 228

1 private session.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. But if we use the agreed

3 pseudonym at this stage, is that all right?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we have a -- if everyone is sure of what the

5 agreed pseudonym is that may take us a bit to get our heads together a

6 bit.

7 JUDGE LIU: For instance, I would like to draw your attention to

8 the Witness W41. Do you understand whom I'm referring to?


10 JUDGE LIU: The defence team?

11 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm not sure because I think W41 was a

12 notation from the Krstic trial and the Prosecutor is now marking their

13 protected witnesses as P with a number after it. So we have a pseudonym

14 list that has the Prosecutor's notation on it as P- a number.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, W41 is the 65 ter number. Am I right? Because

16 we used this kind of pseudonym just to facilitate discussions rather than

17 the true pseudonym in the proceedings, as I understand. Yes?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I know who you're talking about, but

19 again, this is -- and the Krstic case of course complicated that because

20 they all have pseudonyms and numbers. It may take us a minute off the

21 record just to get on the same sheet, so to speak.

22 JUDGE LIU: Let us refer to the witness as W41 in accordance with

23 the 65 ter filings. Is that okay? As for this witness, we do not think

24 it's necessary for this person to remain the witness on the witness list,

25 because we believe that W62 and W63 are testifying on the same topic. Why

Page 229

1 are three witnesses necessary, especially since 92 bis statement would

2 need to be taken? Mr. McCloskey, can you give us an explanation?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: This witness is from one of the three only-known

4 survivors of the Kravica warehouse massacre where some 500 to a thousand

5 people were killed. It is the single-most massacre in the Bratunac zone

6 of responsibility and as such we thought a third written account of this

7 incident would assist the Chamber. We did not think it was worth another

8 live witness but we did think a third written account would assist you.

9 One of the issues that will be perhaps discussed over the Kravica

10 warehouse was whether or not this was part of a systematic and organised

11 execution or whether it was an initial detention site that -- where a

12 fight broke out and prisoners were killed in response to something a

13 prisoner did to a guard. That's an important issue and the overall

14 command and control issues of the case, and we thought perhaps a third

15 witness might help you in that decision. I agree with Your Honour, it's

16 not absolutely necessary, but we thought as a written 92 bis document,

17 that it would not overly burden the resources of the Court.

18 JUDGE LIU: We will hear from the Defence counsel on this

19 particular witness. Generally speaking, we don't need so many witnesses

20 to testify on the same issue, on the same matter, unless there are some

21 particular reasons for that.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, if the witness isn't necessary to

23 testify in a matter that because he has he or she has nothing to offer, in

24 addition to what has been offered by other witnesses, then I dare say that

25 witness, the testimony of the witness is cumulative and there is no need

Page 230

1 to introduce that witness at all, whether it be by as a live witness or as

2 a statement. This particular witness, if you -- if I understand,

3 Mr. McCloskey correctly, and I believe I do, he believes this incident is

4 quite significant to his case and this is a quite significant witness and

5 he's going to use this statement as a basis for confirming what the other

6 two witnesses have said, either the witness is cumulative in which event

7 he should not be heard or if he's important, he should be brought in

8 subject to cross-examination, just like the other two witnesses.

9 Otherwise, it tends to have a cumulative effect. It doesn't assist the

10 Defence in any way because we are unable to cross-examine that particular

11 witness, all it does is confirm what other witnesses have said about a

12 very important incident so we do believe that it's an infringement on

13 Mr. Blagojevic's right under Article 21 of the Statute.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any other observations from the Defence

15 team?

16 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have any

17 remarks on this matter.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a list of

19 witnesses here with the markings that were used. This is the most recent

20 list of witnesses that we received from the Prosecution. I must admit

21 that the marking that has been used here is causing a little bit of

22 confusion on my part, in view of the markings that we have used to date

23 regarding the proposed witnesses. However, this is not the matter at hand

24 that we should be discussing, so I am joining Mr. Karnavas in what he said

25 and that is that we believe that if in principle, the statement of that

Page 231

1 witness is of importance for any of the counts of the indictment, that our

2 client is being charged with, we believe that it would be good and in

3 accordance with the Statute for the witness to be heard viva voce. We are

4 not disputing that if this is a witness whose evidence would be

5 cumulative, and particularly if we are talking about witnesses marked W61

6 and W62 on my list, then I do not see any reason for the statement of this

7 witness to be admitted under Rule 92 bis.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.

9 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, I want to agree with Mr. Karnavas and

10 Mr. -- what was said on behalf of Defence for Mr. Obrenovic, as you

11 read in our written motion, our concern is also that either a witness is

12 very important to the case and then we should be provided with the right

13 to cross-examine that witness or it might not be necessary at all to bring

14 in the statement, the written statement, according to 92 bis. Thank you,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We are not going to make any

17 rulings concerning those witnesses. We are just going to hear from those

18 parties their views on that issue. And at a later stage, this Trial

19 Chamber will make a decision concerning those witnesses.

20 Another two witnesses -- I think three witnesses are W49, W52 and

21 W54. I pose the same --

22 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm really sorry but we have no

23 markings showing the witnesses that you're referring to. If the Trial

24 Chamber would like, I can offer my copy of our latest list of pseudonyms

25 that was provided by the Prosecution and we can coordinate so that we

Page 232

1 can -- if the usher would like to provide it to the Trial Chamber maybe we

2 can come to some kind of conclusion as to who we are talking about so we

3 are all in understanding about this.

4 JUDGE LIU: As I said before, those pseudonyms are for the trial

5 proceedings at a later stage. Here it's a Pre-Trial Conference, we will

6 stick to the 65 ter numbering system so that everybody will understand who

7 we are talking about. We could not change back and forth so often. It

8 seems to me that in this courtroom, only you somehow have gotten loss with

9 that numbering, yes?

10 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I have to apologise. To

11 prepare for this conference I only brought with me appendices A and B to

12 the Prosecution's motion and I also don't have the list with the 65

13 numbers so I'm sorry that we might have to go into closed session because

14 on this appendix, there are some witnesses we are not quite sure if they

15 need protection at the moment. So I have to apologise, but I also do not

16 have the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down, please?

18 MR. KIRSCH: Sorry, I have to apologise but I also have no 65 ter

19 list with me today. I know I should bring it with me the next time but

20 today I'm sorry.

21 JUDGE LIU: Where are those 65 ter filings? It's in the office or

22 at your home or in somewhere far away from The Hague?

23 MR. KIRSCH: In the office.

24 JUDGE LIU: In the office, yes. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have given one copy to Ms. Sinatra. We can get

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Page 234

1 another copy for counsel very quickly.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that would be very helpful.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can excuse Ms. Stewart for the moment.

4 JUDGE LIU: Can we make a break here? Because I think it will

5 take sometime. So we will resume at 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.25 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, have you got the 65 ter filings?

9 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I think we are on the same page

10 now, thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Kirsch how about you?

12 MR. KIRSCH: Thank you Your Honour, I've been provided with them.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So we will proceed.

14 The next three witnesses are: W49, W52 and W54. We understand

15 these three witnesses are Potocari witnesses. And we at least have nine

16 other witnesses on the same count. Do you think it's necessary for us to

17 have these three witnesses to testify on almost the same event?

18 Mr. McCloskey?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as you know, I don't think it's

20 necessary for them to come to court and testify. However, they are --

21 they all have testified in Krstic, there is a nice written record of their

22 testimony and their cross-examination. Potocari is a two-day period, a

23 very difficult and complex situation that we dealt with very thoroughly in

24 the previous trial. We didn't feel a need to put on that many witnesses

25 at this trial but we did want to put on the witnesses that had been

Page 235

1 cross-examined and had provided credible testimony at Krstic as a

2 reference, and to add to the overall case as we needed to prove it. What

3 was going on there? What was their attitude? The forcible transfer issue

4 is very important, and each individual had something to offer, we felt, as

5 witnesses, but they didn't go to the particular acts or conduct of the

6 accused so I think this does help the trier of fact see the overall

7 picture which was a difficult and complex period of time, and I don't

8 think it's -- it creates any really undue burden or difficulty because it

9 would be 92 bis, and I would point out that 92 bis itself is designed to

10 introduce evidence of a -- that's cumulative. That's one of the factors.

11 It's not one of the reasons why you shouldn't be 92 bis, it's one of the

12 reasons why you should be, unlike what counsel said. So we do think that

13 this helps you. We don't think it's a big burden and we can also, I

14 think, way back when, Judge Hunt suggested that we highlight matters from

15 the transcript that we thought was particularly important which we can do.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any response from Defence team? If you

17 just repeat whatever you said with the previous witnesses, I think this

18 Trial Chamber have already taken note but if you have any particular

19 request, you may raise at this moment.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Nothing at this time, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

22 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, we have nothing, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes?

25 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I believe these witnesses, if they are

Page 236

1 going to introduce the statement, the negotiation that happened in prior

2 cases was that if they introduced the statement because during that trial

3 they were allowed to be cross-examined based on the facts of that case.

4 Krstic only took into consideration the Bratunac Brigade and the area of

5 Srebrenica, now Mr. Jokic is charged with this area from the Zvornik

6 Brigade and even if the witness is only asked a few questions relative to

7 the Zvornik Brigade I believe that these witnesses need to be questioned

8 since that is a major part of the indictment.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Mr. Kirsch?

11 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, there is nothing to add at this moment,

12 thank you very much.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Next witness is W57. It seems

14 to us that the statement of this witness was very brief and it's very

15 general. This statement was provided by the MUP in August, 1995. We

16 wonder whether there is any additional OTP statement at this stage.

17 Mr. McCloskey?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not at this time, Mr. President. At the time we

19 filed this motion, well, it was last February, and we were in a perfect

20 world hoping to get results back a little earlier and so based on those

21 results, we would have made a more thorough interview but we can see from

22 this MUP interview that this is a very important survivor for an important

23 incident that occurred, that is reflected in the reports of the Bratunac

24 Brigade. I can go into some detail on that if you'd like. I'll try to

25 make it brief. But there is a report, I believe it's dated 17 July,

Page 237

1 where -- of the Bratunac Brigade, where they identify capturing four

2 children and that those children should be brought for propaganda purposes

3 and filmed because they say Muslims are killing themselves. This person

4 is one of those four children, and we have identified one of the other

5 children as a testimonial witness but only one, and so we thought that a

6 more thorough 92 bis statement of this witness would help corroborate,

7 help back up this important witness that would be testifying, yet would

8 not take up the Court's time regarding this very important issue. It's

9 important because the witness that will testify identifies Muslim adults

10 that were captured with him that are now on the missing list, presumed

11 murdered, and so that is an important incident. It's one of the few

12 documented incidents that we have left over from the documents of the

13 Bratunac Brigade who we know cleansed their documents of most

14 incriminating things so given that it is reflected in the documents, we

15 have two witnesses that could help the Court greatly. This would help

16 corroborate the one that actually testifies but you are correct, it is

17 only a MUP statement and we would definitely have a more thorough ICTY

18 statement prior to offering a 92 bis statement.

19 JUDGE LIU: I'm not going into the details about the statement but

20 could you please tell me how old was he when the incidents happened?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think about 16. These were teenagers.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It's not children but teenagers;

23 right?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The document of 17 July makes a reference to

25 children, Your Honour.

Page 238

1 JUDGE LIU: I see.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I perhaps shouldn't quote Bratunac Brigade

3 documents but I have children in my translation so -- but we do have their

4 dates of birth and I think teenagers is what they were.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any special response from the Defence

6 team?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecutor used the word

8 "important" several times. He also indicated in his own personal belief

9 that this was for propaganda purposes whatever the motive was to have

10 these children filmed and also he made references to documents being

11 cleansed by the Bratunac Brigade. I'm unaware of any evidence being

12 cleansed. This is news to me. I trust we will find out soon enough from

13 the Prosecution. However, if the Prosecutor believes that this witness is

14 important, then that witness should come in to be cross-examined. There

15 is -- I mean it's very clear that Mr. Blagojevic, as all the other

16 accused, have the right to confront the witnesses, and what they are

17 trying to do here is produce one witness and then through other witnesses

18 try to bolster the testimony and validate and verify the testimony of

19 other witnesses, and that is totally improper because it denies the

20 accused the opportunity to cross-examine the witness. If the witness has

21 nothing to add, then the witness should not be here, either to testify or

22 a statement should not come in but some minor statement that a witness may

23 have given to MUP, I believe, is totally improper without the witness

24 coming in to be subjected to cross-examination, particularly in light of

25 the age of the witness. Thank you.

Page 239

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes?

2 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I absolutely

3 support Mr. Karnavas's stand on this point.

4 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, we support Mr. Karnavas's stand on this

5 point, on behalf of Mr. Blagojevic, but also we believe that maybe the

6 introduction of this evidence is totally unnecessary because I can assure

7 this Trial Chamber that Mr. Jokic is not asserting or does not believe or

8 does not have a theory that any of the Muslims killed themselves. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Kirsch?

11 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, although I agree with everything that

12 was said by my learned friends I want to draw the attention of this

13 Honourable Trial Chamber to another point and to let me clarify this.

14 This more or less adversarial surrounding I'm facing here I'm coming from

15 Germany from an inquisitorial system but I have to get used to it this --

16 the point I want to bring your attention to is that even if the witness is

17 a witness for the Prosecution, there might be something in the testimony

18 which is mitigating, which is helping my client maybe, and therefore I

19 think all witnesses are witnesses for the truth, and if they are brought

20 in 92 bis and without any possibility to cross-examine them, then I really

21 have no means to find out maybe mitigating circumstances with these

22 witnesses and so our argument in the written motion that there is a need

23 to cross-examination is also relied on this necessity to find out maybe

24 mitigating circumstances or circumstances which are good for my client.

25 Please reconsider that. Thank you.

Page 240

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that's the very reason that we ask for

2 your views on the particular witnesses in the 92 bis filings. And the --

3 but at the same time, we also think that you have that opportunity to read

4 the statement of that witness and to see whether there is any mitigating

5 facts in his statement, and we'll see what should we do at a later stage.

6 The next witness is about Witness W61. In light of other

7 witnesses and especially with the W60 witness, is it necessary to call

8 this witness? Or is it just repetitive? Yes?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this witness -- I'm sure you're

10 aware there is a famous videotape dated 13 July, that depicts many of the

11 events that occurred in Potocari and along the road between Bratunac and

12 Konjevic Polje. This witness is depicted in that video as a child coming

13 out of the woods in a line of soldiers, and it is from July, 1995. He's

14 now an adult. But his testimony is particularly important in that it

15 corroborates the video, it shows that he talks about what happened there

16 did in fact happen, he is a historical witness in that regard and his

17 story about what happened along the road is different from his brother's,

18 who is the other witness you point out. In his story, he sneaks off to

19 get water. He's told to go off and get water, and when he does that, he

20 sneaks on to a bus and crawls under the dress of a woman and is able to

21 escape. His brother, who is the actual witness we would like to call, is

22 sitting in this large meadow when the Serbs announce that anyone born at a

23 certain time should stand up and would be allowed to leave. This person

24 was too old, based on that year of birth, but the evidence will show that

25 an older man next to him said, "Stand up son, stand up." So he stood up

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Page 242

1 and was able to be let go with the younger children and teenagers. This

2 is a critical story to show you that the mass -- the organised, mass

3 execution process is still in place, is still working just like it

4 happened in Potocari where men of the same age were being separated. Part

5 of the theme and theory of our case will be that the thousand men that

6 were separated at Potocari is part of the process of the 6.000 men that

7 were detained along the road, and we show you that the process is in place

8 taking their property, destroying their IDs, not giving them food, giving

9 them only a little bit of water, particular-age men being chosen, that

10 they are identical. That shows you that the process is the same. It's

11 part of the same murder operation. This one witness is important for

12 that. He does help establish that because he is allowed to go free as a

13 young man, as part of an organised operation.

14 There is some other evidence in the record of that but that on

15 such an important point, we thought it would be necessary for you to hear

16 that one witness live but that his younger brother, who is in the record,

17 cross-examined on the video, and has his own story of escape is something

18 that is of historical importance and legal and evidentiary importance for

19 you to see.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any response from the Defence team?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, I guess there is none. The next --

23 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I was waiting for the

24 response there. I just would like to ask the Court. I know this is a

25 Pre-Trial hearing and it's kind of similar to an opening statement with

Page 243

1 Mr. McCloskey referring to murder operations. This is the point where the

2 accused is presumed innocent and nothing has been proven yet and I ask

3 that a motion in limine be instigated to prevent him from using terms at

4 the Pre-Trial hearing. They are usable at the opening statement but those

5 things are not proven yet.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the Prosecution got special permission

7 from this Trial Chamber to present somehow part of the matters which is

8 related to whether it's necessary to have this witness or not.

9 There need to be some explanations from the Prosecution's side and

10 I guess at this stage, it's just one-sided allegations. It's not the

11 facts. The Prosecution used certain terms just to facilitate the

12 procedures. Now we are dealing with only the procedural matters rather

13 than substantial matters. That's why I try my best to refrain from going

14 into the details of certain incidents.

15 Yes, Mr. Kirsch, do you have any response?

16 MR. KIRSCH: No response, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The next witness is W65. I think the

18 situation is the same with the previous one, that we have the W64 and W66.

19 It seems to me that it's quite cumulative. Is it necessary?

20 Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, we believe it would assist the Court in its

22 evaluation, Your Honour. The murders at Orahovac are of significant

23 importance to the case. They are the first known organised mass

24 executions that occur in the Zvornik Brigade zone of responsibility. Four

25 people survived them. We have provided you a means to see the testimony

Page 244

1 of -- or the information of three. One that has testified that is

2 particularly important that is not yet the subject of discussion, that

3 being number 64, Witness P108, but number 65 previously testified and was

4 cross-examined, so we have a credible record of this witness's experience

5 in what is a significant event, only one of some four or five like this,

6 and again, it's a transcript that is reliable and gives you an account of

7 an important event, and in addition, we hope the first time to provide

8 some Serb witnesses to this account, so having another Muslim witness on

9 the record will help you sort out whether or not the Serb witness is

10 telling the truth which will be your burden because it will be difficult

11 but we do think those Serb witnesses will help you determine what the

12 truth is, but it will be more difficult, as I'll explain later in a more

13 appropriate forum. Also, it's important to remember that the survivor

14 witnesses that survived the large mass executions, Orahovac, the Petkovci

15 dam, the Pilica area, Branjevo farm, these witnesses also started off

16 either in Potocari or as detainees along the road, and all spent the night

17 of the 12th and 13th in the Bratunac zone and all have testimony directly

18 related to the horrendous things that occurred to them in Bratunac, and

19 since we have the commander of the Bratunac Brigade at trial, at this

20 trial, the Prosecution will pay particular attention to some of the

21 incidents that occurred in Bratunac. We did at the Krstic trial but we

22 will even more so at this trial since we do have the actual commander. So

23 it's not just the final mass execution that these -- that this man was

24 involved in, it's also his experience as he was held in Bratunac or in --

25 nearby. That is also one of the reasons why his evidence is important.

Page 245

1 And I should point out that the person that this affects most is

2 accused Obrenovic, who has not objected to this witness, though it does

3 also affect Mr. Jokic because Orahovac is involved in Mr. Jokic's case as

4 well.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any response?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: We don't object, Your Honour. However, I guess I

7 do have a minor problem with some of the characterisations made by

8 Mr. McCloskey when he talks about a credible record and reliability. I

9 just want to make sure that I'm on the record in stating that simply

10 because somebody has testified in a previous trial, and may have been

11 cross-examined, doesn't necessarily mean that that witness would have been

12 cross-examined in the same way in which we would prefer to have that

13 individual cross-examined. So while I do not object to this particular

14 witness, although I do think it's -- it is somewhat cumulative, I would --

15 I don't want to give the impression that by doing so, at least with other

16 witnesses I am conceding that statements taken or transcripts from

17 previous trials are necessarily credible records or the testimony

18 reliable. I think it's a case-by-case base, witness by witness. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Your statement is in the record.

21 Yes?

22 MR. SLIJEPCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is just one

23 thing we would like to add on behalf of Mr. Dragan Obrenovic, namely that

24 witness is testifying about Orahovac and will still stand by our motion of

25 the 7th of April, 2003, in relation to this business too, thank you.

Page 246

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 MS. SINATRA: Your Honours, I think that I would just like to make

3 a blanket statement that we already have on the record in our motion that

4 every -- each and every one of the witnesses that the Prosecution is

5 trying to introduce under 92 bis, A and D, and 94 bis, we -- if they are

6 cumulative, then the Prosecution shouldn't be bringing them -- their

7 evidence forward. But if the Prosecution wishes to introduce transcripts

8 or statements or exhibits without our ability to cross-examine, then it

9 violates Mr. Jokic's rights and every one of these, because of the joint

10 criminal enterprise, applies to the acts and conducts of the accused as

11 charged in the indictment. And I would just like that to be a standing

12 objection with every witness so we don't have to do it each time.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Kirsch?

16 MR. KIRSCH: Your Honour, there is nothing to add to what I said

17 previously, thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. The next witness is W71. We

19 found that statement of this witness is not detailed enough so I wonder

20 whether it's necessary to keep it on the witness list.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is much like the other witness

22 that you pointed out where the statement was not as perhaps detailed as

23 some of our normal statements, and my argument is similar. This is a --

24 the Branjevo Military Farm massacre, perhaps the biggest massacre of this

25 incident, and we have the testimony of two survivors. He is the third.

Page 247

1 We thought, having this survivor's voice be heard and his evidence be

2 heard, what happened to him in Bratunac, what happened to him at the farm,

3 would assist you in both those important areas, both in Bratunac and what

4 happened at the Branjevo farm and as a result we were going to take a more

5 detailed statement and provide that under 92 bis, if so allowed. And if I

6 could make one comment on the law, the Galic appeals case says basically

7 that only where the evidence goes to direct participation in a joint

8 criminal enterprise does 92 bis become a problem.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are there any specific points that Defence

10 teams would like to make concerning this witness? Yes, Ms. Sinatra?

11 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Mr. President. Just in response to the

12 legal argument that Mr. McCloskey just put forward, the Galic case not

13 only stands for the acts and conducts of the accused but if it is a

14 challenge to the mens rea which they are charging Mr. Jokic with knowledge

15 or proof of the knowledge of the individual, then it does fall under acts

16 and conducts of the accused and it should not be allowed to be presented

17 without cross-examination.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this moment, we are not arguing about the

19 legal issues and interpretations of any previous judgements. We are

20 concerned with the particular witness. Do you have any objections

21 concerning this particular witness? This is what we want to know.

22 MS. SINATRA: We have an objection to every witness that they want

23 to introduce, the statement, the transcript or the exhibit, because we

24 want the right to cross-examine.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So there is no specific points

Page 248

1 that you would like to make concerning this particular witness, am I

2 right?

3 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, we would not like for them to come

4 testify at all or have evidence presented but if it is presented we would

5 like to cross-examine.

6 JUDGE LIU: I understand that.

7 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, there is some additional witnesses whom the

9 Trial Chamber may propose 92 bis or recommend be deleted from the witness

10 list. The first two are Witness 45 and 46. In the 65 ter summaries, the

11 Prosecution has indicated that if the witness W45 testified, W46 will not

12 be called. And currently both witnesses are on the list of the first 18

13 witnesses. Therefore, we would like to raise this issue at this Pre-Trial

14 Conference. We need an explanation from the Prosecution side. Yes?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have been able to resolve this problem, Your

16 Honour, and Witness 46 is -- has refused to testify, and Witness 45

17 provides some very important evidence. So we are only asking for one of

18 those. I mentioned that earlier but of course it's impossible to tell

19 which people I was talking about, but that is one of the first 18

20 witnesses that we have withdrawn.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you. And Witness 55 and 56, we wonder why

22 their testimony is necessary from both witnesses, because of course the

23 both witnesses are on the first 18 witness list.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are attempting to resolve which witness should

25 be best but it's a situation where they both recall certain things and

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Page 250

1 they may need -- their testimony may not have any meaning unless it's seen

2 together. This is an odd situation that we occasionally find ourselves in

3 and we are usually able to sort it out prior to testimony, but out of an

4 abundance of caution in case we find ourselves in a situation where one

5 witness's meaning would not have any meaning without the other we put them

6 both down. We should be able to resolve these witnesses very soon, Your

7 Honour. We are working on it because we have identified the problem you

8 have identified.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Another one is W76 witness. We

10 wonder whether we could have this witness's testimony into the Rule 92 bis

11 statement witness.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, in my review of -- in getting ready

13 for this hearing today, I came to a similar conclusion, but with a slight

14 twist. This witness was particularly compelling in showing the trauma and

15 the effect on the Muslim female population of being separated from their

16 family and what we would ask is that we be allowed to play ten or 15

17 minutes of this witness's testimony, an edited version so it's just the

18 important parts at the trial.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The next witness is W77 and W78. Is it

20 necessary for both witnesses to testify? Or maybe you may select among

21 them one for the live testimony and the other for the 92 bis statement.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's what our intention was. We

23 at this stage put them both on because we needed to do a little more

24 research on which would be the most appropriate live witness, but for the

25 reasons you state, we would be only asking for one of those witnesses.

Page 251

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Next column of witnesses are

2 DutchBat witnesses. Could I draw your attention to the witness W33? We

3 understand that there will be a lot of soldiers to testify what happened

4 there. I wonder whether there is any additional transcript that the party

5 and the Chamber should have.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe Mr. Koster may have testified at the

7 Rule 61 hearing, Your Honour, and that would be something that we should

8 add to the 92 bis if we have not already, though we are not sure at this

9 point whether we gave you -- when I say the Rule 61 hearing, that was a

10 long time ago. We used to put on hearings in order to obtain charges, and

11 there were a few Srebrenica witnesses put on in public by the Prosecution,

12 and Mr. Koster was one of them because of what he witnessed. He was also

13 called back as a witness in Krstic because he was a lieutenant that was in

14 charge at a particular time and was able to testify about the freedom of

15 movement between Srebrenica and Potocari on the 11th of July which became

16 an important issue in the Krstic case. It's not clear at this time

17 whether that will be an important issue in this case.

18 JUDGE LIU: The next witness is W36 witness. We wonder is it

19 necessary for him to give the testimony because we found that the

20 statement is quite cumulative.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, Your Honour, this -- all we wanted was his

22 trial testimony from Krstic, and my recollection of this witness is that

23 he -- I'm sorry, I'm wrong on that.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer].

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: The reason we've put him on, Your Honour, is

Page 252

1 because he's one of the few Dutch witnesses that talks about the approach

2 into Srebrenica and the damage that was being done by the troops, to show

3 you that there is a reason why the populace was leaving. That was

4 something we felt needed to be addressed in our evidence and so that's why

5 we put him on there, though it wasn't a huge point, it was a -- something

6 to help make your job easier and probably something that wouldn't be hotly

7 contested by the Defence so that is why that particular witness is there,

8 to establish the -- what was happening to the area around Srebrenica as

9 the troops approached and took it over.

10 JUDGE LIU: The next witness is W34. It's on the witness list and

11 is it possible to have this witness to be a 92 bis witness?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we -- our records show that he is a

13 92 bis witness, not a testimonial witness.

14 JUDGE LIU: I see. I see. And how about W29 witness?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this particular Dutch soldier is

16 important because he tries to follow some Muslim -- some buses with Muslim

17 men in them and when he gets to Bratunac, he gets stopped, his vehicle

18 gets stolen and he is able to show that there was an organised effort to

19 prevent the Dutch in Bratunac, right near the headquarters of

20 Mr. Blagojevic, there was an organised effort to cut off the Dutch's eyes

21 and ears. This is an important piece of evidence. It was at the Krstic

22 trial. It will be at this trial, and I imagine it will be something that

23 Mr. Karnavas would like to have a chance to cross-examine on, and I think

24 it's important evidence for you.

25 JUDGE LIU: And W37 witness? Is it the same situation?

Page 253

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: He is a 92 bis witness, not as important as the

2 previous witness, and he is a 92 bis witness. We felt he was important

3 because he does see truck loads of corpses along the road and is one of

4 the few witnesses that actually sees that but we felt, since he couldn't

5 tie in the act or conduct of any accused and didn't know who killed those

6 people, that it would be appropriate for 92 bis.

7 JUDGE LIU: How about W38 witness?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Same thing. This is a 92 bis witness. His unique

9 story is that he is able to provide evidence of ethnic cleansing by a

10 police dog unit or excuse me a dog unit. It's not exactly clear which

11 unit owns the dogs but he is able to see a bloody German shepherd dog that

12 is with a group of Serb soldiers and he hears a rather compelling account

13 from how that dog got bloody, and it's consistent with the overall theme

14 of our case and it is not necessary for you to see that as live evidence

15 but I think it's an important element of the case. We now, from new video

16 see German shepherd dogs present in Potocari so this new video will

17 corroborate this account and I think make your job easier.

18 JUDGE LIU: I want to make a clarification about the statement of

19 this witness. To confirm that Major Nikolic mentioned by this witness is

20 not the accused.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Actually, Your Honour, now that you point out to

22 me, that probably is the same Nikolic, though he just sees him around and

23 there is no particular acts or conduct that would be criminal in nature

24 and so we are really not asking you to consider that, and that could be

25 redacted if that was a problem.

Page 254

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, I believe that is all for these two

2 columns of witnesses. Of course, we will hold such kind of hearings at a

3 later stage, whenever we have a chance, and this Trial Chamber will inform

4 both parties, if necessary, and when and how to conduct this kind of

5 hearing concerning the 92 bis and 94 witnesses.

6 Are there any particular matters that both parties would like to

7 raise to this Trial Chamber? Mr. McCloskey?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I would like to have a chance to

9 consider the comments of Mr. Blagojevic and discuss that with the

10 Prosecutor. This is an issue that is of concern. Again you asked us to

11 talk to you when our backgrounds tended to be different. In my common law

12 background, which I come from, this is an issue that has several ways of

13 being dealt with. I know I am here and I want to deal with it the proper

14 way that it should be dealt with here but I would ask the Court to allow

15 us to take more consideration on this issue, and perhaps provide the Court

16 with some kind of filing. One of the problems that I would -- I don't

17 have an answer to, is that I'm aware of an ethical code that the Defence

18 counsel has and it says something about if the -- obliging the counsel to

19 withdraw if the client loses confidence. There also could be a situation

20 where a legal ruling is made by the Court and the counsel for an accused

21 has a conflict of interest in appealing that legal ruling and who is to

22 protect the rights of the accused to appeal a legal ruling where that

23 appeal would be in conflict with the counsel's position? These are some

24 of the legal entanglements that are of concern and I would just like to

25 have a chance to think about them and discuss them with my superiors.

Page 255

1 JUDGE LIU: Anything else from the Defence team?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I just want to briefly respond to

3 that. I think a couple of things should be mentioned on the record. One,

4 a junior Prosecutor calling me and insisting that I try to find another

5 co-counsel which I thought was pretty unprofessional and pretty

6 unnecessary, so I think that that has to be on the record. Secondly, I'm

7 unaware of any ethical rule that obliges me to withdraw if a particular

8 client loses confidence. Under my rule -- ethical code, and I've spent

9 the better part of my career as a court-appointed lawyer in the United

10 States, both on the federal side and on the state side, I take my guidance

11 from the Trial Chamber, from the judges. It is the Judge who will allow

12 me to withdraw from the case. Normally under these circumstances I'm

13 asked one question and that is am I prepared to go forward to trial? Have

14 I prepared the case? In this instance we have prepared. This is an

15 unusual situation. Obviously, the Rules allow Mr. Blagojevic to represent

16 himself. Frankly, he's not capable of doing that. That's my professional

17 opinion. He does need legal representation. If the Trial Chamber feels

18 that I or Ms. Tomanovic or both of us should be withdrawn from the case,

19 we will do so but we will take our directions from the Trial Chamber. So

20 I don't want to make any self-serving statements at this point. I'm not

21 trying to stay in, I'm not trying to get -- to withdraw. We have been

22 working on this case from day 1, with the expectation that we would be

23 going to trial, also with the expectation that at any moment the Trial

24 Chamber, for whatever reason, could decide to have us withdraw from the

25 case, so we will do whatever the Trial Chamber decides in this case.

Page 256

1 JUDGE LIU: Any response or anything to add by Mr. Blagojevic at

2 this stage?

3 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think

4 that the situation is crystal clear. Here, the lawyer has mentioned

5 ethics, and the attitude to ethics. I really do not have to look for any

6 other words or waste my nerves or my health which is not good any way. I

7 really need somebody who will work professionally, independently, and so

8 on and so forth, and I don't need someone who will threaten my mental

9 and -- the state of my mental and physical health even before we reach the

10 main problem, that is before the main problem is resolved. For more than

11 a month, I have had no communication with the mentioned gentleman, nor

12 does he find any possibility to show that he's interested in what I'm

13 saying now. All that is being said here about the -- about documents,

14 about the evidence, and it is very important that I have a look at it and

15 read it, and therefore to look at it from my point of view and determine

16 my position towards all that, all this has been blocked. I am completely

17 unaware that it exists and therefore what purpose does it serve? What he

18 knows and what he said here on a couple of occasions when he rose up and

19 spoke, I think is a story which isn't of much help to me. The general

20 situation is of no help to me. It is concrete matters that are of help to

21 me, and when we come to them, and when they are up for solution, then it

22 will be too late. Please understand me, responsibly, if you conclude to

23 the contrary that I'm not responsible, that I am fabricating something or

24 trying to manipulate something, you've got the law and therefore you can

25 apply any measures against me, but any other option except Mr. Karnavas's

Page 257












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Page 258

1 immediate withdrawal from the case is out of the question, because he has

2 betrayed my confidence fully. He has let me down completely and showed

3 that we cannot succeed and he has done that in a very unusual way. And

4 this opened my eyes. And although I do not know much about law because I

5 know what I needed in my profession, however, it opened my eyes and I

6 realised how things are really done in situations like this. I'm not

7 trying to dodge responsibility and I'm saying I do not want to defend

8 myself. No. It would be insane if I did that, but a lawyer of my choice

9 must professionally represent my interests or he cannot be my lawyer.

10 If I am to place my trust in -- if I place my trust in someone and

11 then he starts manipulating it, then well, the gentleman says he does not

12 respect any ethics, that he's not familiar with that, and that he does not

13 want to discuss it at all, I believe he said it all when he said that.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may sit down, please.

15 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: The jurisdiction of this Tribunal, as well as the

17 practice of this Tribunal are quite different from any domestic

18 jurisdictions, I must confess. In the assignment of the counsel, the

19 Chamber has limited influence and power to do that. It may rest upon the

20 Registrar to do that. And I think at this moment, we have to identify the

21 issues: What is the problem here? Still, I'm a little bit confused. If

22 Mr. Blagojevic raised the issue of replacement of the counsel at this

23 stage, all I could say is that this matter is over, because the Registrar

24 has already made a decision to this effect. And the Defence has the

25 opportunity to appeal to this decision but he did not. So the Registrar

Page 259

1 regards this decision is final and his Defence team will go on forward

2 with the Defence in the following proceedings.

3 The second issue is that whether there is new issue raised by

4 Mr. Blagojevic at this stage. That is to represent himself. If he wants

5 to represent himself, without the help from his legal counsel, we should

6 have the motion which will stipulate the reason for doing that at this

7 stage of the time. In the practice of this Tribunal, to be specific in

8 the Milosevic case, the accused decided to represent himself at the very

9 beginning of his arrival in this Tribunal, but the situation is a little

10 bit different. If Mr. Blagojevic wants to represent himself at this

11 stage, we would like to see what kind of reason is found in this motion.

12 Mr. Blagojevic, are you prepared to submit a motion to this

13 effect?

14 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I feel I

15 must say something and say it very clearly. This decision, if I may call

16 it that, of the Registry which you have just mentioned has absolutely

17 nothing to do with my decision to fire this lawyer. It has to do with

18 something completely different, because, please, if that decision is

19 relevant, then I really don't know what to say.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Blagojevic, I'm asking you a question. You

21 just answer this question so we could make a decision towards your

22 request. We are not talking about whether this decision is valid or not.

23 We are not talking about the reasoning behind that decision. We just want

24 to identify what is your request so that we could make a decision.

25 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am

Page 260

1 requesting that, in accordance with the Rules, that I be allowed a lawyer

2 of my choice, who will, based on the rights that are guaranteed to me,

3 that is my fundamental rights, I ask that I be allowed a lawyer who will

4 defend my interests in the interests of justice and truth, and the lawyer

5 that I have at the moment cannot do that.

6 As I have said, I won't repeat it, I don't want to look like a

7 parrot, I simply do not trust him any longer and all that you are doing

8 now and that you are imposing on me the decisions that he will continue to

9 represent me, is disastrous for my standing here, and if that is the

10 objective, then I'm really at a loss for words.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Blagojevic, I think this matter has been

12 dealt with for many, many times. The Pre-Trial Judge granted you two

13 hearings concerning this matter. The Registrar made a decision to this

14 effect already. You are allowed the opportunity to appeal on those

15 decisions. If you repeat the same reasonings you mentioned before in your

16 motion, I'm afraid to rule that this matter is over. But any way, if you

17 want to make any new request, we would like to entertain it. You

18 understand that?

19 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is no

20 need to disregard what I have done so far and to disregard the moves that

21 I have made so far. This should not be disqualified. I still would like

22 to state again, as far as my to-date lawyer is concerned, the situation is

23 quite clear. I fired him. I do not permit him to be involved in my case.

24 Any involvement of his in my case is a catastrophe for me, does not lead

25 to a resolution of this but is detrimental for me. So please, I'm asking

Page 261

1 you to understand, I don't know what else I can say. I don't know what

2 new reasons you would like to hear from me.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that we are talking about

4 different matters. In this case, we will entrust the Registrar to assign

5 to you an independent counsel to consult with you on this very matter. We

6 couldn't debate in this courtroom for a very long time. If you don't

7 trust your Defence team on this particular matter, I think an independent

8 counsel will talk to you about all those matters. And then if you file a

9 motion -- if you want to file a motion, that independent counsel could

10 help you in this aspect, and we'll see what shall we do to this motion,

11 but in the meantime, if there is no extraordinary reason to overthrow the

12 decisions made by the Registrar, I think your present Defence team will

13 still work with you in your case.

14 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I do not accept that.

15 And I absolutely refuse any further involvement of them, because that is

16 dangerous for me in my situation.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, talk to that independent counsel about this and

18 discuss with him. Anyway, our case will start on Thursday afternoon.

19 There is no other reason to delay the starting of this case.

20 You may sit down, please.

21 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The accused sits down]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE LIU: I guess that is all for today's Pre-Trial Conference.

25 We will see you in the opening statement. That is on Thursday afternoon,

Page 262

1 2.15, in the same courtroom. See you there. We will rise.

2 --- Whereupon the Pre-Trial Conference adjourned

3 at 5.05 p.m.