Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1073

1 Friday, 11 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. Case number IT-02-60-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before we have the witness, are there any

9 procedural matters that the parties would like to bring to the attention

10 of this bench?

11 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I believe there was a

12 misunderstanding when Mr. Stojanovic was cross-examining Groenewegen.

13 At the end, the Prosecution moved to introduce their exhibit list into

14 evidence and Mr. Stojanovic introduced an exhibit for the Prosecution, I

15 think it was P48. We do not wish to have that piece of evidence

16 introduced and he withdraws that request to have that exhibit introduced.

17 If that's all right.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's quite all right. I think there was a

19 misunderstanding because we -- I believe that it's a good piece of

20 evidence to impeach the credibility of that witness but if you want to

21 withdraw this evidence, we have no objections.

22 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: So this piece of the evidence is withdrawn from the

24 Defence team's list.

25 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

Page 1074

1 JUDGE LIU: Is there anything else? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we had a -- another witness

3 available in case we ended early today with our current witness. However,

4 he has become ill and is now back at the hotel and so we may, if we are

5 able to finish early, we unfortunately won't have a witness for today.

6 JUDGE LIU: I see. I'm very sorry to hear that, that that witness

7 is not in good health, and I wish him a speedy recovery. That means that

8 if we finish that witness, we'll call it a day. And I think we have to

9 make the best use of the time available to us. Maybe we will spend about

10 20 and 30 minutes on the procedural matters. There are several issues

11 that this bench would like to discuss with the parties, concerning the

12 scheduling and the other procedural matters. Is that agreeable to

13 everybody?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President?

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President?

17 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Sinatra?

18 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. May we have the witness? Yes,

20 Mr. Blagojevic?

21 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Your Honours, I wish to strongly stress my concern here because of the way

23 that the trial is proceeding. As far as I'm concerned, I have to bear the

24 situation that has been imposed on me. The Defence has been imposed on

25 me, which makes it illegal, and there is not even a minimum of

Page 1075

1 responsibility as far as my position is concerned. If we take my

2 situation from the 8th of July, you can see how much that was present then

3 when questions were being asked regarding the witness testimony of

4 Mr. Mandzic. Questions that were being asked were questions chosen by

5 them. These are not as far as I'm concerned essential questions and they

6 do not touch upon the situations that I believe should be the case to

7 represent, to present my role in those times, and the situation began very

8 well to demonstrate to what an extent, through various questions and

9 answers, my situation is obvious and the situation of the people that I

10 had under my command. In order to reduce my concern and anxiety which has

11 been increasing from one day to the next, in order to resolve this

12 situation, which objectively does not depend upon me, the only thing I can

13 do is to come out with this, what I am doing now, because I do not think

14 that currently the way things are proceeding, there will not be an

15 objective impression of my role and the role of people under my command.

16 It will not give the real truth, the real accurate picture. It can only

17 create a series of speculations that are to my detriment and I am sorry

18 but I really cannot accept this. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Blagojevic, we have a witness waiting

20 outside the courtroom and we have already decided and agreed by everybody

21 that we'll spend a period of time, maybe 30 minutes, to discuss those

22 procedural matters. I will turn to you at that period. Do you agree with

23 it?

24 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with that, Your

25 Honour. Thank you.

Page 1076

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation. Now, could

2 we have the witness, please?

3 [The witness entered court]


5 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

6 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

7 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Ms. Issa please continue.

10 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examined by Ms. Issa: [Continued]

12 Q. Now, Captain Van Duijn just to quickly refresh your memory I

13 believe we left off yesterday evening where you indicated that the

14 transport of the refugees stopped in the late evening on the 12th of July;

15 is that correct?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. Now, earlier, sir, you had said that you'd heard that the refugees

18 were being forced into the buses, they were being kicked and beaten. Can

19 you indicate who reported that to you?

20 A. A few of my soldiers that were standing near the sides of the

21 buses, but I saw that myself as well, not that they were kicked when they

22 entered the buses but at one stage there was a Serb soldier in black

23 uniform that more or less strangled a young boy from about 13 or 14 years

24 old and only with the help of Captain Mane I could get the Serb soldier in

25 the black uniform to go away so I'd heard some stories from my soldiers

Page 1077

1 but also I'd seen it myself.

2 Q. And can you describe, elaborate a little bit on exactly what you

3 saw, when you say more or less strangled a boy?

4 A. There was a boy standing with his family in the middle of the

5 crowd, waiting to get on to one of the buses and suddenly one of the Serb

6 soldiers in the black uniform came up -- I hadn't seen him there before,

7 and he said something in Serbo-Croatian, I didn't understand it, but I got

8 the impression that he wanted the boy to get out of the crowd so he could

9 single him out as well and he grabbed him by the throat and tried to pull

10 him out of the crowd but there were two or three people in between them,

11 so the boy was being grabbed by the throat and pulled towards the Serb

12 soldier and when I saw that, I took Captain Mane with me and said get this

13 soldier away from here because as we agreed, when the Muslims were

14 standing in a crowd, we would stand in the middle and the Serb soldiers

15 would stand behind us, more or less 15 metres behind our position and

16 Captain Mane said well, you're right and he took the guy in the black

17 uniform away from that position. And the boy was left with his family.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, towards the end you indicated that we were

19 towards the end of the evening. Did you speak with Mane again that

20 evening?

21 A. At the end of the transports, Mane stated to me that that was the

22 end of the night but tomorrow the transports would continue again and

23 that day would go to Bratunac and celebrate, celebrate the victory, and he

24 also said that he wanted my pistol. I hadn't had the pistol with me. It

25 was locked up in the APC like I told before and then we went over to the

Page 1078

1 APCs but the APC was empty already. That's the last conversation I had

2 with Mane. Then I saw that the men were taken away by the little lorry

3 which I'd seen before, bringing the bread, from that stage I went back to

4 the UN compound. Mane had told me that the next day they would be there

5 about 8.30 to continue with the transports again.

6 Q. All right. And when you went back to the UN compound, did you see

7 anything there?

8 A. Just before I arrived at the compound, a little bit south of the

9 compound on the road, there was a roll call being held by the Serbs and it

10 got my attention because the man, the Serb soldier I knew as Stalin by his

11 code name was in front of the Serb troops, must have been about 60 or 70

12 Serb soldiers in that roll call and Stalin was in front of them.

13 Q. Before we move on to the 13th of July, just very briefly, sir,

14 yesterday you mentioned you saw Nikolic speaking to Stalin. Can you

15 explain how you knew it was Nikolic?

16 A. I remember that Mane, because we heard more or less overheard a

17 conversation on the radio, Serb radio, Mane explained to me that that was

18 his commander, Stalin on the radio. Later that day, he said that Stalin

19 was coming to visit, and when Stalin and Nikolic came to that location,

20 I -- there was a sort of combination of recognising Major Nikolic because

21 he was a well known figure in the enclave, and Mane explaining to me that

22 that was his commander Stalin and Major Nikolic.

23 Q. You also said, sir, that after speaking to Captain Groen, you went

24 to Potocari to assist the refugees. Did anyone go with you? This is

25 earlier in the day on the 12th?

Page 1079

1 A. Not that I remember, no.

2 Q. All right. And moving on, sir, to the 13th of July, 1995, can you

3 tell us what happened in that morning?

4 A. After having slept a few hours, I was at the location of the

5 transports where I'd left Lieutenant Koster, which -- who had taken over

6 from me for the night. I met with him and spoke with him about the

7 situation of the night. He told me that the refugees were still very

8 panicky and it was a lot of situations that night that were more or less

9 started by panic, someone would stand up and walk in the direction, and

10 other people would wake up got up as well and walked in the same

11 direction, not knowing what was going on but purely by the panic they

12 felt. There was an incident of a man that had hung himself during the

13 night and another man that had injured himself, hit himself on the head

14 with a rock, to get this injury more or less to be treated as a wounded

15 person so that he hoped that he would get a better treatment out of that,

16 being wounded. So we more or less spoke about the night, spoke about the

17 position of our APCs that we had planned the night before on the first day

18 of the transport, to make a sort of channel on the road to have a little

19 bit of more control over the crowd of refugees so they would not so easily

20 fall down on the ground and be trampled on by the other refugees so that

21 was more or less the discussion that we had.

22 Q. When you say were you going to make a little bit of a channel, can

23 you clarify that? With what?

24 A. With our APCs, we put two APCs on each side of the road, two APCs

25 in front that would form more or less a V shape tunnel which the refugees

Page 1080

1 would enter on the broadside, on the wide side of the channel so that we

2 did not need that much -- that many soldiers to keep the crowd calm.

3 Q. And what happened, sir, when you -- or what did you do when you

4 took over from Lieutenant Koster?

5 A. At that time I just had taken over from Lieutenant Koster. We

6 were surprised that the Serb buses already were arriving and we could see

7 the drivers from the buses gathering together and waiting for things to

8 come more or less asking us for what to do, and at that time I had a short

9 conversation with Koster about this and I decided to already start with

10 the transports, to prevent that the men were separated from their families

11 and to prevent that the buses and the trucks would be crowded with

12 refugees and so that was in my -- was my idea that we could keep the

13 family as best as we could, we keep them together. I remember that

14 Lieutenant Koster more or less asked me, well, is this a good idea? But

15 we, as I remember we left it at that and he left from my location and I

16 decided to go ahead with that plan.

17 Q. Okay. And how long did you do this before the Serb soldiers

18 returned to Potocari?

19 A. As I remember, the Serb soldiers came to our location about 8.30,

20 much like Mane stated before, and it must have been an hour, an hour and a

21 half that we could keep the families together, keep the men with their

22 families and I'm very glad that the Dutch NIOD Report also was able to

23 find men that -- in that precious one and a half hour, were able to get

24 out of the enclave without being singled out by the Serbs.

25 Q. All right. And can you describe, sir, what happened to the

Page 1081

1 refugees and the families when the Serb soldiers returned at 8.30?

2 A. From that moment on, and I remember that Mane was more or less

3 baffled that we already had started, from that moment on, the Serbs took

4 total control again and the men were singled out again.

5 Q. All right. Can you describe the scene, sir, after all the

6 refugees had been transported out of Potocari?

7 A. It looked like the scene I saw on the 11th, the southern part of

8 Srebrenica was totally abandoned. The scene on the factory site was also

9 empty, when you compare it to the days, the two days before, but there

10 were a lot of personal belongings scattered all around the factory site.

11 The refugees had left blankets, had left bags with potatoes, had left

12 photos, all sorts of belongings that they had left there. There was

13 garbage, of course, a lot of garbage but also a lot of personal

14 belongings.

15 Q. Were there any refugees at all that were left?

16 A. At that point, the only refugees I knew that were still in the

17 enclave were a few that were walking but that was only maybe five or ten

18 that were still making the route to the buses. And the men that were

19 gathered in the location as we know as the white house, that was just

20 across the road near the entrance of the UN compound.

21 Q. All right. Sir, referring then to Prosecutor's Exhibit 20.6/A, if

22 you can look at that, look at your screen, can you identify what is

23 depicted in that photograph?

24 A. This is the white house I was talking about.

25 Q. Is there anything different that you see in the photograph?

Page 1082

1 A. When we were there, there was a much more bushes and trees and

2 also covered in leaves so you could really see the front lawn. You can

3 now see only the little fence that was standing in front of the white

4 house. There was also a lot of bushes and trees there.

5 Q. And what did you see at the white house on the 13th of July?

6 A. The white house itself was packed with men. I managed to get a

7 peek inside of the house. I could see that the house was really packed

8 with men and a few of them were sitting just in front of the house with

9 their backs against the wall of the house and in front of the house in the

10 lawn, it was covered with also personal belongings, bags, photographs.

11 Q. And can you describe the appearance of the men at the white house?

12 A. They were very scared. Of course it was warm so they were very

13 warm as well. But you could see that they were very scared. They were

14 quiet. And they were -- you could see really see that they were very,

15 very scared.

16 Q. Okay. How old approximately were these men?

17 A. It varied from very young men to men about maybe 60, 65 years of

18 old -- of age.

19 Q. All right. Can you provide us with an age range, just in general?

20 A. Average age must have been around 35 or something.

21 Q. All right. You indicated, sir, that you saw some personal

22 belongings on the lawn of the -- in the front of the white house. Can you

23 describe exactly what it is that you saw?

24 A. I saw bags, I saw pictures, and later on I also saw passports. At

25 first, I thought someone had forgot or maybe lost it so I started to

Page 1083

1 assemble identity papers, the passports, but then later on, when I had a

2 both of my pockets were full with passports, I then went over to Captain

3 Mane who was there as well, and I'd ask him about why the passports were

4 spread on the lawn.

5 Q. All right. And what did Captain Mane say to you when you asked

6 him about the passports on the lawn?

7 A. I confronted him with his explanation about the men being singled

8 out which he had told me the day before, about wanting to check if the men

9 were war criminals, and I confronted him with that, because if they didn't

10 have their passports they could easily have given a false name or

11 something and then his system of trying to check who was a war criminal

12 and who was not would not work, and he more or less laughed at me and

13 said, "Well, don't make a fuss about it because they don't need those

14 passports any more." So that was more or less the moment that I really

15 knew that something really bad was going to happen. Of course, when you

16 see men being teared from their families, you know that that is not the

17 way a normal life should be lived but there was a war going on and

18 terrible things happened there, but at that time when I saw the passports

19 and knew that Mane said that they wouldn't need the passports any more, I

20 knew that they had a very dark future ahead of them.

21 Q. And what -- was there any attempt at this point to accompany the

22 men?

23 A. At that time, I did two things. I radioed our headquarters and

24 stressed that we really should accompany the buses with which the men

25 would be transported, and I tried to get in the bus myself but that ended

Page 1084

1 when I was being held at gunpoint by the guy that was standing, Serb

2 soldier that was standing near the entrance of the buses, and he pushed a

3 Kalashnikov rifle in my belly and Mane took me buy the soldiers and pulled

4 me away from there and said, just don't do it, you're not going in the

5 bus. So that's not an option.

6 Q. All right. If we can then -- we are almost nearing the end of the

7 examination, sir, if we can then briefly go back to April of 1995, I

8 understand that you were a commander on two observation points at that

9 point; is that correct?

10 A. In the area I was responsible for, we are had two observation

11 posts, Romeo and Quebec. That's correct.

12 Q. And where were these observation posts located?

13 A. In the north eastern part of the enclave.

14 Q. And can you briefly explain what observations you made in relation

15 to Serbian -- the Serb troops that you saw at that time?

16 A. There were a few of bunkers or locations where the Serbs were

17 located and we could see what they were doing over there and that's what

18 my soldiers also reported shootings or whatever happened, they reported in

19 the normal way and we also had contact near OP Romeo with a Serb bunker

20 that was really close to the border of the enclave, and we even visited

21 sometimes that bunker to try and get some information from the Serbs.

22 Q. All right. And did you notice anything different about the

23 Serbian troops during that period?

24 A. In April, we saw that new soldiers, other soldiers than we had

25 seen in the months earlier, were coming to that bunker and the difference

Page 1085

1 between the new and the old soldiers was that the new soldiers were better

2 equipped, they had rifles that were newer, they had complete uniforms on,

3 they were younger, shaven, clean shaven every day so that was really a

4 difference with the older soldiers we had seen in the previous months

5 before.

6 Q. All right. Now, very briefly, sir, did you observe during that

7 period from your position at these two observation posts Muslim forces

8 within the enclave?

9 A. Yes. We had also next to the contacts we had with the Serb forces

10 we also had contacts with Muslim forces and one of the contacts was

11 Naser Sabanovic who was a commander in the northern part of the enclave

12 and who lived near OP Quebec and I had several conversations with him.

13 Q. And do you know how the Muslim forces were armed?

14 A. They were armed with rifles and occasionally a rocket launcher.

15 Q. Just very briefly, sir, I understand that at one point there were

16 some accusations made that you assisted the Serbs in fact when you were in

17 the deportation and ultimately the separation of men; is there any truth

18 in that allegation?

19 A. No. That is not true.

20 MS. ISSA: All right. Thank you. I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Mr. Karnavas?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Captain. I'm going to pick up where the last

25 question ended if that's okay with you. I know it's a sensitive area but

Page 1086

1 as I understand it, one of your colleagues made some sort of an allegation

2 in the public forum that by you assisting the refugees, particularly I

3 believe it was on the day of the 13th, the second day, especially during

4 those early morning hours, that you in essence were participating in some

5 sort of war crime; is that correct?

6 A. He made that allegation, yes.

7 Q. And in fact, that was so sensitive, as far as you were concerned,

8 that you even consulted a Prosecutor to see whether you were in any

9 jeopardy; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. And then after that, and you learned that you were not, and -- is

12 that right, you learned that you were not in any jeopardy, in other words

13 there was no foundation to that claim?

14 A. Yeah, more or less the Prosecutor said that he found no ground for

15 trying to prosecute me.

16 Q. Exactly. And then after that, you also took it upon yourself to

17 inquire whether you could launch a civil suit for defamation against your

18 particular colleague who I believe was a lieutenant at the time?

19 A. Lieutenant Rutten, I think you mean.

20 Q. Yes; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that was more or less in the same conversation I had with the

22 Prosecutor.

23 Q. Right. Now, before coming here today, you've made several

24 statements, as I understand it, and you've had an opportunity to sort of

25 discuss this issue both before the ICTY and before the parliament, the

Page 1087

1 parliamentary committee here; is that correct?

2 A. I was heard in the parliamentary inquiry, yes.

3 Q. In the inquiry, all right. If I could focus your attention to

4 that inquiry, by the way before coming here today did you have an

5 opportunity to review these documents that were generated as a result of

6 your conversations, your discussions, your testimony?

7 A. I have the documents, all the documents in my possession, yes.

8 Q. Okay. So just to make sure that I'm -- that I have -- that I'm

9 clear in my mind you have the testimony from the Krstic trial?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay and you had a chance to look at that, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And you have your testimony from the parliamentary

14 committee inquiry that was on 11 November, 2002?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And I believe you filled out a questionnaire for the

17 international criminal Tribunal, the office of the Prosecution, a

18 questionnaire that was handwritten?

19 A. I don't know what questionnaire you mean.

20 Q. Okay. We'll get to that. You did give a statement to the

21 international criminal Tribunal, the office of the Prosecution? Did you

22 give them -- do you recall giving them a statement back in October 25,

23 1995?

24 A. I think that was the statement what -- which was made in Assen.

25 Do you mean that one?

Page 1088

1 Q. Well, I was going to get to that too. Now, the one made in Assen

2 was that by the Royal Netherlands Army?

3 A. By General Van der Windt, the big briefing report, you mean.

4 Q. Okay. Well, and then, as I understand -- I'm going to show you

5 these documents to make sure because we want to make sure that everybody

6 here has them and so when I make reference to them we have a clear record

7 if that's okay with you. Okay? But am I correct to understand that there

8 was also some kind of inquiry or questioning done by the air force, the

9 Royal Dutch Air Force or was that part of the same Assen inquiry?

10 A. I think you mean there was an operational debrief in Zagreb and

11 there was a big debriefing in Assen.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Well, before we get to the questioning, why

13 don't we just get these documents, we'll get it out of the way, make our

14 record and then we can go forward. Perhaps I could show one by one, is

15 that -- would that be okay, Your Honour? Mr. President?

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, whatever you feel convenient.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

18 Q. Let me show you -- and these have not been premarked for

19 identification but this would be marked for identification purposes as D7,

20 Your Honour, we left off at D6. I think there -- if you could look at

21 that, take a look at it, and then while it's being distributed, take a

22 glance and so we can identify it and then we move on.

23 A. I think this is the short version from the big debrief that was

24 made in Assen.

25 Q. Okay. Now, do you know whatever happened to the long version? Do

Page 1089

1 you know whether you turned it over to the office of the Prosecution or?

2 A. I have it in my possession but not here.

3 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I believe that falls under Rule 70 so I

4 would object to that.

5 JUDGE LIU: What's the specific reason for that?

6 MS. ISSA: Perhaps I'll let Mr. McCloskey explain it, Your

7 Honour.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, this it was an internal debriefing,

9 like an internal affairs debriefing, if you would like, and much of the

10 material in it didn't have anything to do with these events. It all had

11 to do with internal issues related to disciplinary issues with people or

12 things not related, and the Dutch government went through this material

13 and provided all the material they felt had any relevance to the war

14 crimes issues and provided that to us for our public use, and restricted

15 and requested that Rule 70 protections be provided to the internal

16 versions of those reports, and so the parts that they are referring to are

17 the internal Rule 70 designated so by the Dutch government which as you

18 know will prevent any distribution of that material.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll accept that explanation.

20 JUDGE LIU: Any response from Mr. Karnavas?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: First I'll accept that explanation Your Honour I

22 think it's a reasonable request by the Dutch government. Surely I don't

23 mean to pry into their internal affairs. The document does refer to

24 Nikolic and Stalin and the other gentleman so I take it I can only trust

25 that they redacted or gave us the portions they thought were relevant but

Page 1090

1 I'll take the explanation given by the Prosecution, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: By the way, on this document, I don't see a date.

4 Could you give us an approximation as to when this might have been

5 generated, if you know?

6 A. I think it was August, late August, of 1995, or September.

7 Q. Okay?

8 A. And the big report I think that was brought out in October or

9 November of that same year.

10 Q. So might I conclude, might we conclude, that this was perhaps the

11 first opportunity that you had to give a debriefing on this matter?

12 A. There had been an operational debrief in Zagreb.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. But that was more directed to the military issues not really to

15 the issues that were around the conflict.

16 Q. I take it the Prosecution doesn't have that document by any

17 chance, the Zagreb one? If that's okay, Your Honour, my asking a question

18 here on the record?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are not aware of it and Ms. Stewart is not

21 aware of it and she's our expert on that manner.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll accept that answer as well, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, the next -- if I could have the assistance of

25 the usher.

Page 1091

1 Q. I want to show you what we'll mark as Defence Exhibit 8 for

2 identification purposes. If you could look at it, please, and if you

3 could wait until everybody has had a chance to look at it then I'll ask

4 you a couple of questions, foundational questions, that is. Do you

5 recognise the handwriting on this, sir?

6 A. I recognise the handwriting as being my handwriting.

7 Q. Okay. Now, if we flip to page 8 of this document, that has been

8 marked for identification purposes as Defence Exhibit 8, there is a

9 signature. Is that your signature, sir, on the very last page at the

10 bottom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Now, I also note, and I was trying to figure out when this

13 was generated, and it doesn't -- there doesn't seem to be a date, unless

14 I've missed it somewhere?

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, could I interrupt?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Sure.

17 JUDGE LIU: I saw confidential on the top of this document. Can

18 you explain the status of this document? Is it still confidential, or is

19 confidentiality lifted?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: As I understand, Your Honour, all of this

21 information has been testified to that's in this document so...

22 JUDGE LIU: So you got this document from the Prosecution.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: From the Prosecution. All of these documents are

24 from the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE LIU: Maybe Mr. McCloskey could explain to me about the

Page 1092

1 status of this document.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour, these, I believe this was before

3 my time, but I believe the OTP sent out questionnaires to the various

4 members of DutchBat and people like the witness filled out that material

5 to give us some of our initial guidance into the investigation so these

6 were confidential investigative documents and that's why confidential is

7 on the top of them, and we of course have provided them to the Defence and

8 the information in them is still -- has some confidential nature to them.

9 We don't object to counsel using it in his cross-examination in any way.

10 However, Ms. Stewart has reminded me that in Krstic we offered these into

11 evidence at times under seal when they were appropriate to be in evidence,

12 but at this time, I do not have any objection to counsel publicly

13 questioning the witness on these documents. It's his account and his sort

14 of initial response to some questions related to the investigation so it's

15 perfectly appropriate for him to be questioned on it publicly.

16 JUDGE LIU: To my understanding, that the confidentiality is to

17 the public, right? If there is some information you feel that might be

18 confidential, at any time, the parties could ask us to go into the private

19 session. Is that agreeable?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much, Mr. President. And perhaps

21 if when counsel, if it's possible, well we know that he would have --

22 this would have been a primary document that he would ask questions of

23 this witness. We will try to in the future make sure that there is

24 nothing confidential but I don't believe there is, at this time, but also,

25 the witness may help us, if he's put a family address or something on

Page 1093

1 there that he might be concerned about, I'm sure he'll let us know.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Karnavas.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll endeavour to be a

4 little more careful on these matters but I did look at it and I didn't see

5 anything that jumped out to my attention.

6 Q. Sir, is this your handwriting, sir?

7 A. That is my handwriting.

8 Q. Again I don't see a date. Do you have an approximation when you

9 might have given -- put this information down?

10 A. This was made up in Zagreb.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. This is the first time I have seen it since.

13 Q. Okay?

14 A. 1995, so I've never seen it in the meanwhile but it must have been

15 July, at the end of July.

16 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let me show you what we'll mark as Defence

17 Exhibit number 9 for identification and see if perhaps you looked at this,

18 seen this before. This does have a date. It says October 25, 1995.

19 There is no signature to it but have you seen this before?

20 A. I have seen it before. I do not remember if I ever got to see it

21 before it was made, to sign it, so I don't remember if I have signed it on

22 one occasion.

23 Q. But did you have an opportunity to read it, to see whether it was

24 accurate or whether there were some, you know --

25 A. I don't remember if there were inaccuracies, I've seen a lot of

Page 1094

1 reports that had a lot of inaccuracies in it but I don't remember if this

2 was one of them.

3 Q. All right. Let me show you what we'll mark as Defence Exhibit 10

4 for identification and for the record, I'll have you identify it. Do you

5 recognise this, sir?

6 A. I recognise it, yes.

7 Q. And what do you recognise Defence Exhibit 10 for identification to

8 be?

9 A. This is, like it says, the stenographic report of the hearing of

10 the parliamentary inquiry committee.

11 Q. And I take it you had an opportunity to read this as well?

12 A. In Dutch and English, yes.

13 Q. In Dutch and in English, and did you find anything in this report

14 that misquoted you or that you failed to sort of accurately portray or

15 when you --

16 A. As I remember, this is a stenographic report so --

17 Q. Okay. Finally I do have your -- I have for everybody's

18 convenience, a copy of your testimony from Krstic. As I understand it,

19 Mr. President, that it's not necessary to mark it as an exhibit but I may

20 be making references to it so while I have the usher up here, so that way

21 if I do make reference to it you have it handy and I think we are about

22 ready to begin now. Why don't we begin with the last question that was

23 posed to you by Madam Prosecutor, and that was with respect to that

24 allegation that had to deal with the evacuation? It's my understanding

25 from your testimony before the parliamentary committee that the evacuation

Page 1095

1 was a necessity given the situation on the ground as it existed; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And in fact you testified that because of the conditions, the lack

5 of food and lack of water, and the hygiene, that an epidemic would break

6 out then if something wasn't done; is that correct?

7 A. There was a great danger of that, yes.

8 Q. It's my understanding that in your testimony you indicated that

9 you were -- it was the best situation of the bad options that were

10 available but nonetheless that you were pleased with the evacuation

11 process, that it had taken place, that these people were able to get out

12 of that miserable situation?

13 A. Pleased is not the right word, I think but --

14 Q. Okay. You indicate -- well, you're right. And that's exactly

15 what you say on page 7, that -- page 17, you say, well, pleased is not

16 quite the right word but then you go on to state, page 17, you'll see, it

17 says -- it says but it was perhaps the best of all bad options. The

18 conditions were poor there. And then you go on to give an example and let

19 me read it for the record: "For example, we - meaning the DutchBat - ate

20 tinned food for four out of seven months to such an extent that people

21 were getting stomach cramps each time they ate anything because of all the

22 preservatives in the food. We also had hardly any fuel." And then you go

23 on to talk about the blocking positions but then you go on to say: "In

24 short our conditions were bad but the refugees had it much worse since

25 they had their houses destroyed by gun fire --"

Page 1096

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down?


3 Q. "It was all a source of possible epidemics and diseases." That

4 was your testimony, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. In fact, you go on in the next paragraph and you continue

7 but by and large, your testimony back on 2002, was that an evacuation was

8 absolutely necessary under the circumstances given the lack of food, the

9 lack of water, the hygiene and what have you, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And in fact, you used the word the situation was

12 intolerable at the time, okay? So you would not dispute me on that? You

13 would agree with me on that?

14 A. I would agree with you, yes.

15 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated -- you were asked about whether the

16 refugees, whether the Muslim refugees, showed any resistance of getting on

17 to the buses, and I believe on page 21 at the bottom of it, you say, you

18 say, "I certainly saw," at the bottom, so the second to last, in the

19 middle of the paragraph, "I certainly saw that the Muslim refugees did not

20 show any resistance in getting on to the buses. They really wanted to go

21 away on the buses. They wanted to get away from the enclave of

22 Srebrenica." And then you were asked, you were posed another question,

23 "Did you have to exert any force to get them to go to the buses." And

24 your answer is: "No, we didn't do that either, we did not force anyone to

25 get on to the buses." Right? So that's what you saw and that's what you

Page 1097

1 testified to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay? And that was correct then and it is correct today, is that

4 right?

5 A. If you see it in the light of the events that happened in the

6 previous days, if you are a refugee and you are shelled from your house,

7 you have to flee, you have to take everything with you, you are separated

8 from members of your family and you are packed with 20 to 30.000 other

9 refugees in the sun without food and water, then I think it's

10 understandable that you want to get away from that place.

11 Q. Absolutely. But I also from gather -- from the previous passage

12 that I read, it was my impression that you had it tough and you were

13 eating at least three squares, albeit canned foods with lots of

14 preservatives and you were having a hard time and it was my impression

15 that you felt that the people in Srebrenica were also under deplorable

16 situation -- conditions as well, right?

17 A. Worse than our.

18 Q. Worse than yours?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then you go on to say -- "did you consider stopping making the

21 evacuation?" And your answer is: "No, the picture that I got from the

22 refugees was always -- was always that they wanted to get away from

23 there. We did not force anybody to get on to the buses and to go away

24 from there. In view of the danger of epidemics, breaking out, and the

25 unhealthy situation, if people were allowed to stay there, we concluded

Page 1098

1 that there was no other option than to cooperate," meaning cooperate with

2 the Serb forces that were getting the folks on to the buses; is that

3 correct?

4 A. That's correct, yes.

5 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, from your testimony, also,

6 that when folks were trying to get on to the buses, initially there was

7 almost a stampede because they were trying to rush and get on; is that

8 correct?

9 A. I have heard that there was a stampede just before I arrived at

10 that location, yes.

11 Q. And as a result of that, measures were taken to sort of slow down,

12 slow folks down from getting on to the buses so they wouldn't hurt

13 themselves; is that right?

14 A. Yes, fall down and be trampled on by others.

15 Q. Now, yesterday I noted, I heard you and again it was pointed out

16 by Madam Prosecutor almost right off the bat, where you indicated that

17 some folks were being, I believe she used the word kick, and you said you

18 didn't see anybody getting kicked but they were being abused as they were

19 getting on the buses, okay? Is that a fair characterisation of your

20 testimony?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Now, it's my understanding though from listening to you, let's

23 take aside the one incident where you talk about the kid, you did not see

24 any kicking of women or children at that time, did you?

25 A. There were a few incidents, the incidents I remember most clearly

Page 1099

1 is the incident with the kid and most of the time when families were

2 separated, it happened near our location, then you could see that women

3 and the men were at some point pulled out of each other when they tried to

4 hang on to each other and they were pulled to get them.

5 Q. In other words the wife --

6 A. Separation, yeah.

7 Q. But that's a far cry from somebody being shoved and kicked on to

8 the bus?

9 A. Yes, but those were stories I was told.

10 Q. I understand. I understand. But I just want to make sure that

11 you with your two eyes did not see any of that activity or heard about it?

12 A. [No audible response]

13 Q. Okay. All right. And, in fact, you haven't reported it in any of

14 your statements that you saw it so I thank you for that answer.

15 Now, let me move on to another topic. And I want to talk to you a

16 little bit about your mission, all right? And then we will develop from

17 there. You arrive in Srebrenica in January, 1995; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, as I understand it from hearing you yesterday before coming

20 you took an orientation course to be a peacekeeper, not a peacemaker but a

21 peacekeeper?

22 A. Training.

23 Q. Training.

24 A. More or less six months of training.

25 Q. Right. Because there is a different sort of mentality that a

Page 1100

1 peacekeeper has to maintain than say a soldier who is battle fit and ready

2 to go. He has to react where a peacekeeper has to stop, to think, maybe

3 negotiate, am I correct on that?

4 A. Yes, more or less you have different materials. You have blue

5 helmets instead of green, white vehicles.

6 Q. Okay. And we are going to get to the blue and the green because

7 I'm glad you mentioned that because at one point, I believe were you asked

8 a question about whether it was a blue mission or a green mission, a blue

9 option or a green option. And blue meaning what?

10 A. UN, UN type.

11 Q. Okay. But at one point, as I understand it, you had to go into

12 the green option, even though you were wearing the blue helmet, in other

13 words you had to shoot at the Serbs because you felt or you were in fact

14 perhaps getting shot at; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that was for the blocking position.

16 Q. Okay. For the blocking position. In fact, you were asked a

17 question whether the blocking position was a mechanism designed to draw

18 heat, to draw fire, as a pretext in order to get the close air protection

19 that was needed that you were asking for during those days when it wasn't

20 coming and eventually when it came it was too little too late; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Okay. So it would be fair to say that at some point, you use

24 yourselves more as a way of drawing some attention, drawing some fire,

25 almost like a sitting duck, because you got that -- those white vehicles,

Page 1101

1 hard to miss, right, blue helmets, people are shooting at you, then you

2 can radio in to Zagreb, you know, send us close air protection because the

3 situation on the ground was fairly tense; is that correct?

4 A. And also making a statement that the UN was there so they couldn't

5 get past us. That was more or less the statement we had to make.

6 Q. Now, you had a particular function while were you there, a

7 particular mission, and you were placed in a particular area during that

8 period; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And as I understand it, you had some men behind you?

11 A. Behind me?

12 Q. Well, under you, I'm sorry?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Because you're an academy man, you went to the -- you're a

15 professional soldier you went through the military academy and so you went

16 there as a first lieutenant?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And I believe you're 24 going on 25 at the time?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. All right. So this was probably your first mission where you came

21 under fire?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. All right. Now, one of the objectives for being there was to --

24 well in your own words, was to protect the militarised zone, this area,

25 the militarised enclave, right?

Page 1102

1 A. M'hm.

2 Q. Protect the people inside, right? And also sort of keep the new

3 neutrality between the two acting forces?

4 A. We were peacekeepers.

5 Q. Peacekeepers, not peacemakers.

6 A. Not peacemakers.

7 Q. Right. But you did have a particular function and that is you

8 were there to ensure that the enclave was demilitarised, right?

9 A. That was also the demilitarisation was something which we had to

10 look at. That was being like the two parties, the Serbs and the Muslims

11 had agreed on.

12 Q. Right?

13 A. More or less.

14 Q. Well they had agreed on, thanks to the UN, and the UN got you

15 folks in there and I believe there might have been Canadians before you

16 got there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And but the whole purpose was that this area, this enclave,

19 was going to be protected by the UN and the Serbs were supposed to abide

20 that neutrality in that zone, provided of course that that -- the people

21 inside were totally demilitarised, right?

22 A. That was the agreement, yes.

23 Q. That was the agreement. But when you got there on the ground and

24 throughout the whole period that you were there it was never

25 demilitarised, was it?

Page 1103

1 A. Not totally, no.

2 Q. Well, it's like saying a little pregnant, either demilitarised or

3 isn't, right?

4 A. When you want to demilitarise, then you have -- you need a certain

5 amount of soldiers. You look at the area and being that big when you have

6 so little soldiers, then it's not possible to demilitarise it when you

7 only have 200, 300 fighting soldiers.

8 Q. All right. But when you're talking about the 200 or 300 fighting

9 soldiers you're talking about DutchBat, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Of course, this is 1995, it was declared demilitarised

12 back in 1993 so I take it - and it's no fault of DutchBats but everybody

13 that preceded you failed to keep that place demilitarised, right?

14 A. We knew that the Muslims had arms, yes.

15 Q. Okay. But my question was everybody that preceded you failed to

16 take away the weapons, right?

17 A. They didn't take the weapons, no.

18 Q. They didn't take the weapons, okay. And in fact, there were

19 overflights coming in, helicopter flights coming in, and I believe that

20 you observed some lights at some point, and reinforcements or at least

21 perhaps ammunition and guns were coming in in this enclave at the same

22 time that were you there to try to demilitarise, right?

23 A. I heard stories about that. I also read the NIOD Report but I

24 don't know that for sure.

25 Q. Okay, you don't know that for sure. However, you were able to

Page 1104

1 view with your own two eyes Muslim soldiers with weapons, right?

2 A. That's correct, yes.

3 Q. And some of those weapons were rocket launchers?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, what kind of a damage could a rocket launcher do? Is it like

6 a little pistol that you carry or is it something much more heavier?

7 A. You use it on an APC or a tank. It can do a lot of damage.

8 Q. Okay, so it can take out tanks?

9 A. It can take out tanks when you're close enough.

10 Q. Okay. So it's not light armour, you know, it's not like having

11 just a rifle?

12 A. It's not small calibre.

13 Q. It's not small calibre, okay. But nonetheless --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm sorry Your Honour. I'm sorry. I truly

16 apologise.

17 JUDGE LIU: I think you have to repeat from when you use it from

18 time to time or something like this because the transcript is not quite

19 clear.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, Your Honour, I'll slow it down. I'll make a

21 conscious effort. I apologise. And I apologise to the gentleman there

22 who must have a tough job.

23 Q. All right. So, while were you there, you were able to see

24 soldiers, Muslim soldiers, carrying rocket launchers?

25 A. Yes. I have to state that on several occasions, we were able to

Page 1105

1 take weapons from the Muslims but it was also clear to us that we didn't

2 take all the weapons. We knew that the Muslims still had arms.

3 Q. Okay. But that wasn't my question, now was it? My question was

4 from time to time you would see Muslim soldiers with rocket launchers, yes

5 or no?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, you had -- you had contact, not just with the Serb

8 soldiers but you also had contact with the Muslim soldiers, as well,

9 right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And as I understand it from your testimony today, that one of them

12 was Naser Sabanovic?

13 A. Naser Sabanovic.

14 Q. Sabanovic. And what was he exactly again?

15 A. I think he was a commander of northern -- the northern troops from

16 the Muslims.

17 Q. Okay. So here you were having contact with the commander of part

18 of the 28th division that was there, and I understand it in your contacts

19 he tell you about some of the activities that he was carrying out, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And some of those activities?

22 JUDGE LIU: You're still too fast.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

24 JUDGE LIU: Just make a pause after the witness answers the

25 question.

Page 1106


2 Q. Okay. Now, so when you would meet with this gentleman, on

3 occasions he would tell you about some of his activities; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And those activities entailed military activities?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Going outside the enclave?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Setting mines, for instance?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Did he ever discuss with you any other activities such as going

12 and burning down Serb villages or killing Serb citizens or was he just

13 telling you about laying mines and what have you?

14 A. It was only about the laying mines because he told me that they

15 had information that the Serbs would try and take over my two OPs and to

16 prevent that, he was placing mines on roads towards the enclave. That was

17 the only stories he had told me.

18 Q. While you were there, did you ever hear of any stories or

19 incidents of these Muslims soldiers going out and burning down Serb

20 villages? Did you hear any of those stories?

21 A. I heard stories about that.

22 Q. Okay. So I take it you didn't -- you don't -- you don't recollect

23 the incident that occurred, I believe it was in June 26th, 1995, just

24 before the events?

25 A. I don't know anything about that.

Page 1107

1 Q. Okay. All right. Now, these soldiers these Muslim soldiers at

2 one time, as I understand it, from reading your testimony even pointed the

3 rocket launchers at you during those events?

4 A. That was in the blocking position.

5 Q. That was in the blocking position. I believe it was the 10th or

6 was it the 11th somewhere around there?

7 A. I don't remember the date.

8 Q. And you folks, meaning the DutchBat, wanted to leave but the

9 Muslim soldiers that were in the enclave pointed the rocket launchers at

10 you to keep you there in that position; is that correct?

11 A. We were not trying to leave or we didn't have -- not have the

12 order to leave there, but the Muslim soldiers there at that location made

13 it quite clear by pointing the rocket launchers at our APCs that they

14 didn't want us to leave.

15 Q. Okay. So even if you had the orders, would you have left and

16 taken a chance at being shot at with a rocket launcher or would you have

17 stayed just to be on the safe side?

18 A. That's a difficult question, I don't know. I did not have that --

19 that's always difficult, you have to see that when the situation occurs.

20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, do you know off-hand by any chance how

21 many Muslim soldiers were in the enclave in total? Because I understand

22 you saw some of them leaving. Do you have an estimation of how many there

23 were? If you don't know that's okay?

24 A. I don't know the exact amount.

25 Q. Okay. And I take it you were never told by anybody?

Page 1108

1 A. I think I was told but I forgot.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you indicated, sort of the last line of

3 the questioning followed very much the same script as your first testimony

4 with Krstic, same outline, you know, they started at the events and then

5 they went back to April, 1995 and they wanted to question you, the

6 Prosecutor here, questioned you about what you were able to observe with

7 respect to the Serb soldiers in that area. Okay?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if I understand you correctly, your testimony is, back then as

10 it is today, that sometime in the middle of April, you saw fresh troops

11 arriving and I guess the older troops leaving, right?

12 A. The old troops also stayed, a few of the old soldiers went away.

13 We didn't see them again.

14 Q. And then, as I understand it, it was almost like a weekly basis,

15 every Tuesday or something the bus would come?

16 A. There was a weekly basis. I don't know the exact day but they had

17 a continuing rotation, yes.

18 Q. So it wasn't every Tuesday a new batch arrived the old ones stay

19 and so you have an increase of the troops but rather a rotational basis?

20 A. At first it was a rotation, and from April on, we noticed that

21 there was a buildup in the troops. There were more troops there.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know the numbers?

23 A. I don't recollect them.

24 Q. Okay. Now at one point, I was kind of curious about this, maybe

25 you can help me out, you say that you made some inquiries about these

Page 1109

1 folks and they said somebody told you that they were Chetniks; is that

2 correct?

3 A. I cannot remember no, sorry.

4 Q. Okay. You can't remember whether you were told that they were

5 Chetniks or you can't --

6 A. I can't remember if that was told to me. I remember that there

7 were incidents with patrols from our soldiers, from the UN, when they --

8 at the border crossed patrols from the Serbs, that they noticed that there

9 were no longer the patrols they were used to meet but they were young,

10 fresh soldiers and they made like hand signals or waving with the Serb

11 sign of the hand and that they were more or less more aggressive than the

12 older soldiers we were more or less used to.

13 Q. Okay. But my question goes back to the term Chetniks, and if I

14 could refer you to page 2 of what has been marked as Defence Exhibit 9 for

15 identification, that would be your witness statement of 25 October, 1995,

16 you'll see at the second last paragraph, give us a little bit of this

17 description, then you say and I'll read it for the record, "Until April

18 1995 there were somewhat older slovenly dressed Serbian soldiers here.

19 From the end of April, 1995, the posts of the Bosnian Serb soldiers were

20 reinforced with new personnel. This new personnel was more highly

21 disciplined. When talking to our old regular contacts, we heard that the

22 new soldiers were Chetniks," and I'm kind of interested if you could help

23 me out, maybe your memory doesn't serve you well at this point but help me

24 out first who were your old regular contacts?

25 A. Can you please first help me, where I can find that.

Page 1110

1 Q. Well it's on page 2?

2 A. From the witness statement.

3 Q. Witness statement?

4 A. Of 25 October.

5 Q. Okay?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. And it's the second to last paragraph?

8 A. I have it now, yes.

9 Q. Okay. Take your time, look at it, it's the very last sentence of

10 the second to last paragraph.

11 A. The regular contacts we had from OP Romeo were the contacts from

12 my group commanders with the Serb soldiers, the older Serb soldiers in the

13 bunker that we called the Dragan bunker that was near OP Romeo. I don't

14 remember the names of the Serb soldiers that were in that bunker.

15 Q. Okay. So are you suggesting -- are you -- are you telling us

16 today that it was the Serbs themselves that said these are Chetniks, these

17 new folks are Chetniks?

18 A. Yes. When you say it now, that -- I remember now that they were

19 more or less not that fond of the new soldiers because they made them

20 clean their weapons, polish their shoes and stuff like that, shave.

21 Q. All right. So the old soldiers referred to the new soldiers as

22 Chetniks because they imposed some discipline on them, as far as you can

23 recall?

24 A. I don't know if they called them Chetniks, I cannot remember that.

25 Q. Do you know what a Chetnik is, by the way?

Page 1111

1 A. I've read something about it, yes.

2 Q. All right. Okay. But I was just curious why you characterised

3 them as this in your statement, that's all. All right. So --

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's time for a break. Is this

5 the right time?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: It's a wonderful time.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll resume at 4.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, before we resume, I think one

11 matter I have to remind the counsels and the witness. Witness, I

12 understand that you are eager to give your evidence, to help us, and I

13 understand it's the weekend, everybody wants an early break but we have to

14 bear in mind that whatever is said in this courtroom has to be translated

15 into the other two languages. I don't know whether anybody in this

16 courtroom follow in French but certainly Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Jokic are

17 following in B/C/S. They are entitled to understand the questions and

18 answers. So I hope -- I hope between the questions and answers, at least

19 there will be ten seconds pause so that the interpreters and the typists

20 will follow you. I will not act like a symphony conductor or traffic

21 police by giving signals to the parties to indicate when to start and when

22 to stop but I just want the proceedings in good pace.

23 Yes, Mr. Karnavas, you may begin.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Again I want to apologise

25 to the interpreters and to the gentleman for speaking too fast and not

Page 1112

1 pausing.

2 Q. Okay. Now, Captain, I want to focus on the area of your

3 understanding of the troops that were on the ground during the days of the

4 fall of Srebrenica, particularly the 11th, 12th, 13th. It's my

5 understanding from your previous testimony, when asked about the Drina

6 Corps and the Drina Wolves, it was your impression and perhaps that

7 impression you still share today, that they are one and the same. In

8 other words, that the Drina Wolves is a nickname for the Drina Corps; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Of course I have read also the NIOD Report but as I remembered

11 from the things I knew then was that by my understanding, the Drina Corps

12 was the same as the Drina Wolves so the Drina Wolves were more or less a

13 nickname for the Drina Corps.

14 Q. That was your understanding back then?

15 A. At that time, yes.

16 Q. All right. So at some point, I believe it was the 11th, or the

17 12th, the 12th, you met a man by the name of Mane; is that correct?

18 A. On the 12th.

19 Q. On the 12th. And it was your impression from speaking with him

20 that Mane was maybe not a member of the Drina Wolves but attached or

21 associated with or working in conjunction with the Drina Wolves, is that

22 your understanding?

23 A. Yes, he was a member of a military police unit and like you say,

24 attached or associated with the Drina Wolves.

25 Q. Okay. So might I ask where was it that you got the impression

Page 1113

1 that he was a military police? Was it through him or through some

2 independent investigation on the ground at the time?

3 A. No, he told me that he was military police.

4 Q. And so I just want to make sure that we are clear to be

5 distinguished from MUP or police that were associated with the civilian

6 government, not special police associated with the civilian government but

7 military police in the sense of police being within the military?

8 A. Yes, that's what he said, military police.

9 Q. All right. And from reading your testimonies, and your

10 statements, it seems to me that this fellow, this Mane fellow, was quite

11 active at the time on the ground taking care of the situation; is that

12 correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Now, while you were there on the 12th, and perhaps even on the

15 13th, but I know for the 12th for sure, General Mladic showed up; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And you referred to him yesterday as the -- as the senior officer,

19 I believe or the highest-ranking officer. Those were your terms, I

20 believe; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, for those of us who have not spent any time in the military,

23 what did you mean by that?

24 A. That General Mladic was the soldier, the Bosnian Serb soldier,

25 with the highest rank.

Page 1114

1 Q. Okay. Now, before that day, did you know who General Mladic was?

2 A. I had seen him on television, yes.

3 Q. Okay. But did you know what his actual position was within the

4 VRS or the BSA, as you refer to them?

5 A. I cannot recollect what I exactly knew about General Mladic at

6 that time but that I knew that he was --

7 Q. The senior on the spot.

8 A. The senior -- a very high military officer of the Serb army. That

9 was without a doubt.

10 Q. Okay. Now, since then have you been able to figure out who he is

11 or who he was at the time?

12 A. I've read something about him in the NIOD Report, yes.

13 Q. All right. And would it be accurate to say that what you said was

14 that he was the highest, not a high ranking but the highest, the top of

15 the top, of all the officers, in other words, he was the top of the

16 military command structure of the VRS? Would that be a fair

17 characterisation?

18 A. Yes, that would be.

19 Q. All right. Now, from listening to you, based on what you

20 observed, at the scene, on the 12th, it seems to me, correct me if I'm

21 wrong, that we have the highest military officer on the ground acting like

22 a platoon commander, micro-managing and giving orders to anyone and

23 everyone he could get a hold of. Would that be a fair characterisation?

24 A. He was giving orders when he wanted to, but the process was

25 ongoing and like in every army, when the highest ranking officer comes to

Page 1115

1 the scene and he wants to change anything, he can, because he's the

2 commander.

3 Q. In other words, when the highest commanding officer of the Dutch

4 army comes to the airport where you're working and he can just give you an

5 order?

6 A. If he does not like things that are happening, he can give me an

7 order, yes.

8 Q. But isn't there some sort of a chain of command that he should go

9 to your commanding officer and maybe give him an order to give you the

10 order? Isn't there sort of like a trickle down approach?

11 A. If he wants to do it in a nice way, he can use the chain of

12 command but he's still a general.

13 Q. All right. Now when you say a nice way, are you -- is it nice,

14 polite, being friendly --

15 A. Without --

16 Q. Or being correct? What is the correct way?

17 A. The correct way is that he is a general and can give orders to

18 anyone he wants.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. If he does not want to go past the chain of command, then he would

21 do it the way you stated and use the chain of command to change things,

22 but when a general comes to Schiphol airport and he doesn't like the way

23 things are happening or maybe some -- even things about discipline, he can

24 give an order. He's still -- he still has a rank of a general.

25 Q. Now, when he gives you that order, he'll take -- you know, you as

Page 1116

1 a hypothetical because I would imagine armies by and large function the

2 same way, they have to, right?

3 A. More or less.

4 Q. More or less. They have to have a structure. And when he's

5 giving you that order, I would imagine that you're subordinated to him for

6 that particular task that he's giving you, are you not?

7 A. It depends on what he's saying.

8 Q. Okay. Well, if he tells to you do something and you do it, and

9 let's say, hypothetically speaking, that he asks you to do something that

10 later on proves to be incorrect. I'm not talking about illegal activity

11 but say for instance incorrect, and there is an inquiry, can your superior

12 officer, the one that he bypassed, be responsible for your conduct because

13 you listened to the commander up above?

14 A. It more or less depends on what the general gives as an order, but

15 if he gives the order, he is also responsible of course.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. But still the person that gets the order is also responsible for

18 what he's doing.

19 Q. Absolutely. But can you, for instance, tell the general, "Why

20 don't you talk to my superior officer? Because I think you need to follow

21 the chain of command here"?

22 A. Of course.

23 Q. You have that option?

24 A. Of course, yes.

25 Q. Okay. Now, being on the ground, do you think the officers that

Page 1117

1 were with Mladic, based on what you saw the way General Mladic acted and

2 behaved, how often did they did up there and contradict him or tell him

3 to just follow the chain of command, the normal procedure? Did you ever

4 notice that?

5 A. I have no idea how the Serb officers gave orders to each other. I

6 don't know how that happened.

7 Q. Okay. But you did see Mladic ordering people, including soldiers,

8 what to do?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. And when he was on the ground, would it be fair to say that he was

11 in charge?

12 A. Yes, that would be fair to say.

13 Q. Nobody else was in charge but him?

14 A. He was in charge.

15 Q. He was micro-managing, would that be a correct way of putting it?

16 A. I don't know what kind of orders he gave out there, and if those

17 were micro-orders or other orders.

18 Q. When a general, when the highest general, excuse me, and I'll slow

19 down here for a second, but when the highest general of the army is giving

20 an order to a foot soldier, don't you think that's micro-managing, in your

21 opinion as a military officer being trained in the academy, having all of

22 that experience?

23 A. It depends on the order he gives.

24 Q. Okay. And of course you didn't speak any Serbian, right, so you

25 didn't understand what orders he was giving?

Page 1118

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. Now, when he wasn't there, there was his second in command,

3 occasionally, sometimes, I believe you referred to him as his -- you

4 thought he might have been his Chief of Staff, gentleman -- Colonel

5 Jankovic; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. He made an impression on you especially because of his

8 perverse sense of humour always checking up and saying, well, I see that

9 lieutenant, using the Serbian word for it, you're still alive; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was sort of an unnerving thing to say at the time and he

12 struck you and he made an impression on you, right?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. And would it be fair to say that when Mladic wasn't there and he

15 was on the ground, that he was in charge?

16 A. No, because at that time I didn't know what role Colonel Jankovic

17 played.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. He told me that he was a logistics officer.

20 Q. Right.

21 A. And of course later on, I read in the NIOD Report something about

22 the role and Colonel Jankovic but at that time, I did not know that his

23 role.

24 Q. Okay. By the way I appreciate the fact that you're distinguishing

25 what you read and what you observed because I think that's what I'm here

Page 1119

1 for. What you observed on the ground there. So when he was on the

2 ground, if I understand you correctly, from what you were able to observe,

3 you could not distinguish whether he was actually in charge or somebody

4 else was in charge or nobody was in charge or everybody was in charge; is

5 that correct?

6 A. I knew that Mane was in charge and Stalin.

7 Q. Okay. We are going to get to them, we are going to get them. But

8 when he was there, your testimony today is the person that you believe

9 that was Mladic's right-hand man, and was right next to Mladic, when

10 Mladic wasn't there you were not sure whether he was in charge?

11 A. I did not know at the time that he was his right-hand man.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I only met him when he was alone.

14 Q. Okay. But that's what you've indicated that you thought the

15 impression that he gave you that you were able to observe, the dynamics

16 between Mladic and him, as I understand, you got the sense that he was

17 Mladic's right-hand person?

18 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

20 MS. ISSA: I think I'm going to object to this line of

21 questioning. I don't believe that's precisely what the witness said.

22 He is mischaracterising the evidence and perhaps if the witness can be

23 allowed to explain what he said but that in my respectful submission was a

24 mischaracterisation of the evidence.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: I gave the witness an opportunity, Your Honour.

Page 1120

1 JUDGE LIU: Of course the witness has the opportunity to repeat

2 what he said. If there is a mischaracterisation by the Defence counsel,

3 the witness has a right to correct it.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I never saw Jankovic and Mladic together. I

5 saw them on separate occasions so when Defence counsel is speaking about

6 Colonel Jankovic and General Mladic together I don't know what he's

7 talking about.


9 Q. Okay. Now, you say when Mladic came twice -- General Mladic came

10 twice on the 12th, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when he came, at least, the first time he had an entourage?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the entourage was basically officers from what you were able

15 to observe?

16 A. I remember that there was one officer that looked a little bit

17 like General Mladic.

18 Q. Right. But were there other officers on the ground at the time?

19 A. I think there was but I don't remember who they were.

20 Q. Okay. Did any of those officers stay there after Mladic left?

21 A. I cannot recall now, can't remember.

22 Q. You cannot remember. But it's your understanding today, as it was

23 back then, and all the times that you've testified, that this individual

24 named Mane was the person in charge when Mladic wasn't there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1121

1 Q. Okay. And might I ask was that an impression that you formed

2 based on your experience and your observations or was that something that

3 was told to you by Mane, in other words Mane said to you, "Lieutenant, I'm

4 in charge"?

5 A. Yes, that's what he said.

6 Q. Okay. Now and by that you understood to mean that he was in

7 charge for the situation on the ground at that time?

8 A. Yes, and also from the things that happened, I told you a story

9 about the guy in the black uniform, I wanted to get away from the Muslim

10 refugees, Mane was the man that could do that.

11 Q. Make it happen?

12 A. Make it happen.

13 Q. So when there was a situation --

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, please look at the transcript as

15 well it also applies to the witness. If that sentence is finished with a

16 dot there, you may ask your question, or answer the question. Is that

17 understandable?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: That's too fast.


22 Q. Okay. Now, at some point, Mane informed you that his superior was

23 someone by the name of Stalin, he had a nickname or code name Stalin; is

24 that correct?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 1122

1 Q. And as I understand it, Stalin showed up at the time, at

2 sometime?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever ask Stalin, because as I understand it,

5 you had an interpreter there to assist you, so did you ask Stalin with

6 what unit he was in by any chance?

7 A. I never had a conversation with Stalin, by my recollection.

8 Q. So just to be clear, your understanding that Stalin was Mane's

9 superior was from the information that Mane had given you?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. All right. Now, when he -- when Stalin showed up, did Stalin and

12 Mane interact?

13 A. Not that I remember. Their interaction was through the radio.

14 Q. You mean they were on the ground and they are talking, they could

15 visibly see each other and they are talking on the radio or this is before

16 Stalin shows up?

17 A. Before he showed up and Mane knew that Stalin was coming so they

18 had already had contact by the radio before.

19 Q. Okay. Now when Stalin showed up, if I understand you correctly,

20 Mane didn't go up to Stalin to say, to give him an update and Stalin

21 didn't come up to Mane to get an update? Based on what you were able to

22 observe?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. But at some point, you were able to see Stalin speaking with an

25 individual? Someone that you had seen before, someone who was well known,

Page 1123

1 and that individual was Major Nikolic; is that correct?

2 A. That is correct. Because Stalin and Major Nikolic were walking

3 together.

4 Q. Okay. I take it that before this day, you had had some dealings

5 with Nikolic or at least you knew who he was by face, that is?

6 A. I knew who he was by face, and that he was responsible for the

7 checkpoint near OP Papa, where all of our convoys, the few convoys we

8 had, passed through, and as I remember, Mane also told me that -- pointed

9 him out, that was Stalin and that was Nikolic.

10 Q. Did you ever have any actual dealings with Major Nikolic?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you know what his actual function was, who he was subordinated

13 to, who he was attached to, who was his commander, what his title was, any

14 of that?

15 A. I know that he was a major, at least that was his rank, and that

16 he was responsible for OP Papa and that was the only thing I knew about

17 Major Nikolic.

18 Q. Nothing else. So just to make sure that I understand it

19 correctly, you never spoke with Stalin and you never spoke with Nikolic,

20 ever?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. All right. But you were able to see them on that particular day

23 from afar and you were able to recognise them or it was pointed out to you

24 by Mane that there is Stalin and there is Nikolic, right?

25 A. There were about 25, 50 metres from our location, so it wasn't

Page 1124

1 that far.

2 Q. 25 to 50 metres?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Okay. So that would be about twice the distance from this wall to

5 that wall, is that -- or closer?

6 A. I don't know how -- what the distance is in this courtroom but --

7 Q. Well, I'm just asking you to look at it that's why I'm using this

8 as a comparison?

9 A. The distance from the courtroom -- the diameter of the courtroom,

10 more or less something like that.

11 Q. All right. Now you never went up to them, close to them?

12 A. Not closer than that, no.

13 Q. Okay. And I take it you were not able to hear what if anything

14 they were talking about?

15 A. No, did I not hear that.

16 Q. Okay. Now, would it be fair to say that you could not hear

17 because of the distance? Or were you not just paying attention?

18 A. I think that was a combination of the distance, me not talking

19 Serbo-Croatian, and the noise that was on that time.

20 Q. That's right. We got all that crowd, right? Now, when you

21 noticed those two individuals, did you lock your sight on to them to kind

22 of figure out what on earth they are doing or you just sort of looked at

23 them and went about the business that you were attending to because after

24 all, you had other things that were more pressing on your mind? Which of

25 the two?

Page 1125

1 A. I looked at them for a while, because also at that time, Mane was

2 pointing them out to me, so I had a chance to look at them for a while.

3 Q. All right. And what you were able to see was I guess some hand

4 gestures?

5 A. And also seeing that Stalin was speaking to Major Nikolic.

6 Q. Okay. So Stalin was speaking to Nikolic, and as I understand it,

7 maybe I have it wrong, that Nikolic was pointing in some direction or

8 making some hand gestures? Or was he just standing there listening

9 attentively.

10 A. They were -- they were walking and Major Nikolic was walking in

11 the middle of the road.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. And Stalin was walking next to him, and as I remember, Stalin was

14 speaking to Major Nikolic and making some hand gestures, and that gave me

15 the impression that he was explaining something to Major Nikolic.

16 Q. All right. We are going to get to that but first, would it be

17 correct to say that Major Nikolic was dressed sort of in a well-pressed

18 uniform, Ray Ban sunglasses, sort of looked very officious, strutting a

19 little bit like a peacock there in the middle of the road? Would that be

20 a correct way of putting it?

21 A. It looked like he was inspecting.

22 Q. But he also looked officious, did he not?

23 A. More or less, yes.

24 Q. And from the way he carried himself with this sort of aura glowing

25 about himself from what you could see and from what was happening, you

Page 1126

1 discerned that he must be Stalin's superior; is that correct?

2 A. The way they two were interacting gave me the impression that that

3 was the case.

4 Q. Okay. But you could not hear what they were saying and you never

5 talked to them?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. All right. Now, I notice that in the military, while you were in

8 the military, you've had the opportunity to visit some countries,

9 including Greece; is that correct?

10 A. You are well informed.

11 Q. Okay. And I'm part Greek, well I am Greek but from America, but

12 when I go to Greece I see people talking with their hands, you know.

13 Could you tell me, when you were in Greece, were you able from 50 yards

14 away to discern what the individuals, what people were talking about when

15 they are their gesticulating, waving their hands, acting about?

16 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to that, it's totally

17 irrelevant. It's totally irrelevant.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, drop this question.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

20 Q. All right. Now, let me walk you through some of your statements

21 on this issue because I think this is fairly critical on what has been

22 marked as Defence Exhibit number 7 for identification, that's the one

23 that -- the redacted or the summary from the Royal Netherlands Army, the

24 debriefing, on page number 2, and I believe it says -- it's the third

25 paragraph, it starts with July 12th and it states that you saw Major

Page 1127

1 Nikolic here. At the very last part, the last sentence, within this

2 paragraph, you say, "But Nikolic was Stalin's superior." Now, it doesn't

3 say that you thought it was his superior, that you got that impression but

4 that he was. Do you recall whether that was the statement that you gave

5 or was that the way it was just merely summarised?

6 A. This is a summary, and it also is a translation, and as I try to

7 recall, I think I told that I had the impression that Nikolic was Stalin's

8 superior.

9 Q. Okay. Now, if we could go to Defence Exhibit number 8 for

10 identification purposes, this is the questionnaire that you filled out. I

11 believe you indicated that it was -- when you got to Zagreb, perhaps that

12 early. So shortly after the events. If we flip to page 2, and you can

13 see that there is a list of questions, and I want to take you to the third

14 question from the bottom. And it states, the question is describe anyone

15 who appeared to be in command of them. You're referring to all sorts of

16 people. Including the commanders' name and rank, if you're aware of it.

17 And you say, platoon commander Mane, and this company, company commander,

18 nickname Stalin, of the military police, who arranged the deportation,

19 okay? Now, right after that, there is another question, and this is

20 identify and/or name any other captors, if you can? And you say, "Major

21 Nikolic who was also frequently present." Over here, you do not have him

22 above in the previous question stating that your impression was that

23 Nikolic was the commander of Stalin who was the commander of Mane; is

24 that correct?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 1128

1 Q. Okay. If we could go to Defence Exhibit number 9 for

2 identification purposes, over here I've looked for that to see where you

3 state anything about Mane, and Nikolic, and if we flip to page 8, you talk

4 about Stalin at one point being there where he held the formation I guess

5 at the end of the day, I believe that you saw him making roll call or --

6 but I don't see anything in this statement -- maybe I'm wrong but I don't

7 see anything where you referred to Stalin as Nikolic's subordinate?

8 A. Can you explain to me what exhibit number 9 is?

9 Q. I'm sorry, this was the statement that you provided on October

10 25th, 1995.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. And if page 7 and 8 is where you talk about Mane and at the last

13 paragraph at page 7, and then page 8 you talk -- you do indicate that

14 Stalin came at one point and had an U formation, the men stood and he took

15 roll call, and I believe that -- this is the -- in this particular

16 statement you have the dates wrong. I think you're a day off.

17 A. The roll call was on the evening of the 12th.

18 Q. Right. Right. Because then you go on the next day, Thursday the

19 14th but the next day was actually Wednesday, the 13th?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Right but here you don't say anything about -- about Stalin being

22 under Nikolic or that being your impression.

23 A. This interview was in a fashion of question-answer.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. I see that I did not mention it.

Page 1129

1 Q. Okay. Now, you did -- when you did testify at the Krstic case,

2 and you have the transcript there available, I'll direct you to page 1746,

3 it was Thursday, 30 March, 2000, and around page -- around line 7, you're

4 asked, or line 6 you're asked -- line 7, now, are you aware -- were you

5 aware at the time who Stalin was subordinated to, who was the commanding

6 officer of Stalin was at the time? And the answer is: "I recall that I'd

7 seen the soldier with the code name Stalin before, together with Major

8 Nikolic. It looked to me that Major Nikolic was the commander of the guy

9 named Stalin because Major Nikolic was in the middle of the road, Stalin

10 was next to him more or less explaining, I couldn't understand what they

11 were talking about because they were talking Serbo-Croat but it really

12 looked to me like Major Nikolic was more or less inspecting what was going

13 on there and Stalin was telling him about everything that happened." So

14 from that, I understand that you -- that was your testimony then and I

15 take it that is your testimony here today; is that correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. But from reading this, it seems to -- you say that you couldn't

18 understand Serbo-Croatian, that doesn't say that they were so far you

19 couldn't even hear what they were talking about, does it?

20 A. I said it was a combination of the distance and the language.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. And the noise.

23 Q. And that's the impression that you have?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Whether it's actual fact or not, that's the impression that you

Page 1130

1 have but you don't know for certain to this day whether Stalin was under

2 Major Nikolic, do you?

3 A. I never looked it up in the NIOD Report. I don't know.

4 Q. Okay. All right. And I believe you also asked later on in the

5 testimony about it and you indicated the same, that basically that was an

6 impression that you had made -- you had formed and that was the end of

7 that; is that correct? Basically, I mean, there is nothing more we can

8 talk about that issue other than it's just an impression that you made and

9 it could be true and it could be false? The impression, that is.

10 A. It was the idea that I got from the things that I had seen.

11 Q. Okay. Now, we talked a little bit about General Mladic and so as

12 you indicated, he was the highest ranks officer or the highest ranking

13 officer on the scene at the time, right? And -- is that correct?

14 A. At the times he was present.

15 Q. At the times that he was present, okay. And you also indicated

16 yesterday that at one point he made a rather racist comment. Do you

17 recall that, with respect to the Dutch and the multi-ethnicity and the one

18 soldier who happened to be black? Do you recall that?

19 A. I recall that, yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, to be honest with you I was thinking about that last

21 night and I'm wondering whether the reason that it was posed, the question

22 was posed to you was whether -- was because you wanted to give the

23 impression that somehow all the soldiers that were there shared the same

24 sentiments, the same racist sentiments that General Mladic had indicated?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

Page 1131

1 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, that's totally inappropriate, it's

2 irrelevant and speculative. I just don't see where all this is going. I

3 think Mr. Karnavas's cross-examination is getting a little repetitive,

4 quite frankly.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I have the same impression, Mr. Karnavas, would

6 you please rephrase your question.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well but for the record, Your Honour, this was

8 raised by the Prosecutor in order to inject the issue of racism into the

9 Court so I'm just merely wanting to get the witness to clear up the issue.

10 Q. Now, getting back to the report, the time that you were questioned

11 before the parliamentary committee, there was one particular issue that

12 you were questioned somewhat about and that was an omission on your part

13 earlier to state that you had seen passports that were being discarded,

14 that you had testified today that you collected. Do you recall that?

15 A. Yes. I recall that. It was no omission on my part because I

16 mentioned it in my debriefing report in Assen. It was an omission to take

17 that from my debriefing report into the big report, the summary.

18 Q. Okay. And I stand corrected on that but as I understand from

19 reading the material and even during the hearing, you were questioned

20 whether on the scene you had brought that to your superior's attention,

21 your commander's attention?

22 A. Whether I have -- that was a question, if I had radioed in and

23 told the story about the passports by radio. That was the question of the

24 inquiry committee.

25 Q. Right. And my understanding was that you had failed to provide

Page 1132

1 that information at the time, on the scene.

2 A. I did not give the information by radio because I thought that was

3 not necessary to give that by radio. I just wanted to stress that we

4 should accompany the buses from the -- and that was my goal and it was not

5 necessary to elaborate on that and tell them about passports or any other

6 things I had seen. That's why I made a choice not to tell the passports

7 because as I stated at the committee, if you talk to each other by radio,

8 you try to keep the message that you are sending as short as possible.

9 Q. All right. But did you tell that to Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans

10 sometime thereafter when you next saw him or was this something that you

11 brought to the attention when you gave your statement at the Assen

12 committee?

13 A. I think that was -- I'm sure I mentioned it at the committee in

14 Assen and I don't know if I have mentioned it earlier to other soldiers.

15 Q. Okay. Now, did Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans get into trouble at

16 all as a result of not having that information passed on to him by you at

17 the time? That's just a question. It's not a trick question.

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Okay, you don't know. Is that something that he should have

20 known, given that he was there on the scene? I mean here was vital

21 information that you had and him being the commander, isn't that something

22 that he should have known?

23 A. I don't think that the question of finding passports changed

24 anything about the men being separated from the women and being --

25 Q. Excuse me, I'm going to interrupt you here. You're not answering

Page 1133

1 the question. The question was --

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, yes, Ms. Issa.

3 MS. ISSA: Well, we actually haven't heard the rest of the answer,

4 Your Honour, so we don't really know if the witness is answering the

5 question. I think he should be given the opportunity to finish his answer

6 before being interrupted.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course, witness you may continue.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. As an officer I'm trained

9 to think about what a commanding officer should know, what is relevant

10 information for him, and at that time, I did not think that the

11 information about the passports had anything -- any more information in it

12 than the pure fact of the men being separated from the women and the men

13 being transported separately from the women.


15 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you made a judgement call at

16 that point in time given your training that this was not relevant

17 information?

18 A. Relevant information --

19 Q. Or necessary information.

20 A. As to --

21 Q. The situation on the ground.

22 A. It was relevant to know that the buses should be accompanied and

23 to stress that we would do everything we had to try and accompany the

24 buses and to say anything about passports would not make the accompanying

25 of the buses more or less needful.

Page 1134

1 Q. But work with me here for a second. I'm not judging whether what

2 you did was correct or incorrect. I'm merely stating what I seem to

3 understand coming from you. That information wasn't passed on as a result

4 of you thinking given the situation on the ground wasn't that pertinent at

5 that particular moment. You made a judgement call based on your training

6 and based on what was happening, right?

7 A. I made the judgement call to stress that we should accompany the

8 buses.

9 Q. But you also made the judgement call not to inform

10 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, right, that it wasn't necessary at that

11 particular time?

12 A. I did not have a direct line with him, with Lieutenant-Colonel

13 Karremans.

14 Q. Where was he at the time?

15 A. He was at the UN headquarters.

16 Q. Where?

17 A. At our headquarters at the UN compound.

18 Q. And where was the UN compound?

19 A. In Srebrenica.

20 Q. Okay. So he wasn't there in -- he was only a few kilometres away,

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And reachable by radio, right?

24 A. Not direct.

25 Q. Not direct but you could reach him. Now, hypothetically speaking,

Page 1135

1 okay, this is a hypothetical, what if - and I'm not suggesting that it

2 is - but what if that information was critical and I'm not suggesting for

3 one moment that it is, that it was, but what if that information was

4 critical? Given his location, and given where you were, is that something

5 that Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans would have known since he was the

6 commander on the scene at the ground at that time?

7 A. I don't know exactly what you mean about what he would have

8 known. Can you explain?

9 Q. Well, as a commander he's supposed to know everything that's

10 happening, you know, at least that's what some would have us believe, that

11 as the highest commanding officer on the ground he should know what all of

12 his troops are doing at any given time, what information they may be

13 possessing. Given that situation, as it was happening and the judgement

14 call that you had to make and everything else, do you think it would have

15 been possible for Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans to have known that somehow

16 you had that -- you were in possession of that information?

17 A. I don't know where Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans exactly was at the

18 time that I found the passports so you should ask him that.

19 Q. Well, I'm asking you. Is that something that he should have known

20 given where he was located and given the situation on the ground?

21 A. If you look at the information he needed to give orders to the

22 rest of the troops that we still had, then the information of me stressing

23 that we should accompany the buses was enough for him.

24 Q. Okay. And the information regarding the passports you decided he

25 didn't need, at least, at this particular moment?

Page 1136

1 A. Not at that moment, yes.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination, Ms. Sinatra?

5 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour I do have cross-examination that

6 should take maybe 30 minutes but I would like to ask the understanding of

7 the Trial Chamber just for a second. I just got passed a message from

8 Mr. Stojanovic with some questions on it that I haven't had time to

9 understand or ask. May we take a ten minute break while I prepare just

10 for one more second? Just to clarify what this is. If it's too

11 difficult, Your Honour, I will try to punt but I really can't decipher

12 what this message is.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any way, we will have our break in about 20 minutes so

14 why don't you go on with the questions you have prepared and then during

15 the break, you could consult with your colleague.

16 MS. SINATRA: That's perfect, thank you, Your Honour.

17 I'm sorry, how does this work because I need something that will

18 catch the papers? I'm sorry, this is arranged incorrectly. Thank you

19 very much.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Sinatra:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Lieutenant Van Duijn, is that how you pronounce

22 your name?

23 A. Van Duijn.

24 Q. Van Duijn, okay. Thank you very much. I would just like to follow

25 up with a few questions. When you said you were stationed with Charlie

Page 1137

1 company in Srebrenica; is that right?

2 A. Charlie company was stationed at the compound in Potocari and for

3 the last period, I was stationed -- I was under the command of Captain

4 Groen from Bravo company.

5 Q. Bravo company was at OP...?

6 A. The Srebrenica compound.

7 Q. Srebrenica. So if you said you had to establish these blocking

8 positions on the road from the Swedish housing project to Srebrenica, and

9 these blocking positions included cooperation and close air support from

10 UNPROFOR? Wasn't that the original decision?

11 A. We were UNPROFOR, of course, and we had to take up blocking

12 positions so that we would with our APCs and our own weapons, the .50

13 calibre machine gun on the APC, and the rest of our weapons, small calibre

14 and anti-tank rockets, together with air support, try and stop the Serb

15 advancement.

16 Q. Well, just to make this clear, D7, which is the parliamentary

17 committee report from November 11, 2002, that has been marked as D7-1, I

18 will be referring to this repeatedly so if you would like to take it out

19 in front of you it may assist in my questions. But you talk about the

20 green versus the blue order. In fact, in your parliamentary questioning,

21 you did state that you were totally undermanned and it was not realistic

22 to have a green order at that time, isn't that correct?

23 A. Where is that in the report?

24 Q. That's on page 5 of the report.

25 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Sinatra, are you sure it's D7?

Page 1138

1 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, it's the stenographic report. I

2 believe it's D7-1.

3 JUDGE LIU: No it's D10.

4 MS. SINATRA: D10, I'm really sorry. D10-1. Thank you for

5 correcting me, Your Honour.

6 THE WITNESS: Can you show me what page or paragraph that was?

7 Q. Yes, well, let's go to page 6 and the question from Mr. Bakker

8 was, "You therefore took up these blocking positions, did you think this

9 was realistic at the time?" And you said, "We -- a green order with the

10 material we had was actually not realistic." That's what you said in the

11 questioning?

12 A. That is what I said, yes.

13 Q. Okay. But -- and you didn't have any orders from any superiors at

14 that point and you gave the order to your gunners to open fire when you

15 saw the Serbs at that time, didn't you?

16 A. That was an of course a constant flow of orders and information

17 that was given from me to Captain Groen and the other way around of

18 course.

19 Q. And your purpose of opening fire at that time even though you were

20 undermanned and this was not realistic was so that you could get the air

21 strike cover, right?

22 A. No. That was to -- that was to make a statement that -- to the

23 Serbs that they would notice that we were there, and that we were not

24 going away and firing for them to stop their advancement.

25 Q. So it's your statement today that you did not use this opportunity

Page 1139

1 as a vehicle to get the air cover that you were -- had been requesting?

2 A. That was not my use of my vehicle.

3 Q. But that was your understanding when you went out there for the

4 blockades, wasn't it, blocking positions?

5 A. No. My order was to take up a position and to stop the Serb

6 advancement and together with air support, make a stand and stop that

7 advancement, and it was not my intention to draw fire with my APC.

8 Q. So if Pieter Boering has stated that that was one of the purposes

9 of the blockades, of the blocking positions, he would be incorrect; is

10 that right?

11 A. No. There were more vehicles in the blocking position and later

12 on, I heard that our battalion had the intention of using our vehicles to

13 draw, more or less, draw fire, but that was not my understanding of my

14 order that I got at that time.

15 Q. So you didn't have good communications with your superiors at that

16 point; is that correct?

17 A. We had communications by radio.

18 Q. But they didn't tell you the true motive of this operation?

19 A. I did not have that order, no.

20 Q. You said that your anti-tank weapons were useless at that point.

21 Is that true?

22 A. They were -- it was more or less a danger to the soldier that

23 would shoot or use the anti-tank weapon because they were indicators on it

24 for humidity and they had passed the accepted level. So it was more or

25 less a danger to fire the anti-tank weapons.

Page 1140

1 Q. So they would have been exploding in your hands, then? Isn't that

2 what you said?

3 A. That was a possibility, yes.

4 Q. Now, on page 11 of your statement -- not your statement but this

5 parliamentary inquiry, last paragraph, you stated that you took over the

6 command from the lieutenant who was sitting on the verge, and I also took

7 over the walkie-talkie that was on the battalion's radio network and I

8 immediately came under the battalion's command. Is that what you said?

9 A. What part of the --

10 Q. The last paragraph on page 11. Actually the last two sentences.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the verge, did you mean that he was on the verge of a

13 breakdown?

14 A. Yes, more or less, yes.

15 Q. And when you say that you took over the walkie-talkies and joined

16 the battalion's radio network, you had a system in place at your battalion

17 command centre that kept you in contact with one another, intercepted

18 radio communications from the BH Army and from the VRS army, didn't you?

19 A. The network we used was the units was divided in units so the

20 Bravo company could talk to each other by radio without Charlie company

21 hearing, and from Charlie company of course the same, and so there was

22 also network that was used only by the battalion headquarters and that's

23 what I meant with the network that was used by the battalion headquarters.

24 Q. And at the battalion headquarters they had telephone operators and

25 equipment for receiving and intercepting other radio communications,

Page 1141

1 didn't they?

2 A. I don't remember, I'm sorry.

3 Q. When you say you came under the command of the battalion's radio

4 network, can you tell me who was in charge of that network? Did you speak

5 to one particular person at that time?

6 A. They were changing operators and at some point I had contact with

7 Major Franken but I didn't have contact with one particular operator.

8 Q. So you don't remember a name that was part of that radio network?

9 A. Major Franken.

10 Q. Major Franken, okay?

11 A. Among others.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you were aware that on the 13th or the

13 12th, a huge Bosnian column formed, right? Of Bosnian men, soldiers,

14 women, that were going to leave the Srebrenica area and flee toward

15 Tuzla? Were you aware of that?

16 A. On the night of the 11th, when we were with APCs near point 02

17 waiting for Sergeant Mulder to come from OP Mike to the compound in

18 Potocari we saw a column of soldiers leaving from point 02 towards

19 Susnjari.

20 Q. Was that the 28th Battalion?

21 A. I don't know which unit that was. It was a combined column of

22 men, I even recognised a little boy from 12 or 13 years old that lived,

23 used to live near OP Quebec.

24 Q. And how many soldiers did you see armed?

25 A. I think that must have been about 30 soldiers that were armed and

Page 1142

1 the rest, like the little boy, were not armed.

2 Q. But from your radio communications, did you have the information

3 that this column was heavily armed in its trip to Tuzla?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You're aware of the agreement that Colonel Karremans entered into

6 with General Mladic that the VRS would provide buses and trucks if the

7 DutchBat commander would provide fuel for the transportation of the

8 refugees? Are you aware of that?

9 A. No. I was not aware of that.

10 Q. Was the only convoy of refugees that was escorted totally out of

11 the area, was that the one that was escorted by Pieter Boering?

12 A. I don't know if that was the only one.

13 Q. You had no knowledge of how many other escorts were given to the

14 refugee convoys?

15 A. No. I have no knowledge about that.

16 Q. Okay. I'm going to go to the 13th. You took the morning of the

17 13th; is that correct, early in the morning, you took it upon your own

18 initiative to go ahead and load the refugees and get things going that

19 morning; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And there were no VRS soldiers around, right?

22 A. No, not at that time.

23 Q. In fact, that night before they told you they were going to go

24 celebrate in Bratunac, didn't they?

25 A. Yes, they told me that.

Page 1143

1 Q. And did it ever cross your mind instead of loading the refugees on

2 to the buses, to let them escape?

3 A. There was no place to escape to, and refugees did not make any

4 effort to walk away. If they wanted to walk away, there was -- there was

5 opportunity for that but they stayed where they were.

6 Q. Are you saying they were like a herd of docile cattle?

7 A. I'm not saying that. No, they were scared and they were panicked

8 and they were in need of water and food.

9 Q. Given the descriptions of incidents that you had heard from

10 Lieutenant Koster, would it have been wise to have tried to get them taken

11 away yourselves on the buses the night before, before the VRS returned?

12 A. With buses? What do you mean with the buses in the evening? We

13 did not have control.

14 Q. Over the buses?

15 A. Over the buses, no.

16 Q. Okay. On page 20 of this statement that you have, the interview,

17 isn't it true that Lieutenant Koster didn't want you to facilitate the

18 loading of the buses?

19 A. I also read in the NIOD Report when it came out so not that long

20 ago, that he was -- he did not want the transport to start. What I

21 remember from our discussion we had, that he asked me, well, do you think

22 it's wise to start? And in my recollection, we left it at that.

23 Q. Isn't that an indication that he was questioning your judgement at

24 the time?

25 A. He was questioning my judgement, yes.

Page 1144

1 Q. Now --

2 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, just one second. Give the

3 court reporter a tiny break.

4 Q. You didn't personally see any murders or beatings or mistreatment

5 in the Potocari area, did you?

6 A. Depends on what you understand on the mistreatment. Like the

7 incident I told you about the boy being practically strangled, you can

8 differ about that of course but --

9 Q. I would like to refer you to your statement of October, 1995,

10 which is D7-1. On -- I believe on the last page, page 4, it says that you

11 did not see any men being ill-treated. I believe in your statement before

12 that you said that the only death that you saw on page 3 was a woman who

13 died during child birth in the factory?

14 A. Do you mean the statement of October?

15 Q. I'm sorry, it's this one. It's the summary of your statement to

16 Major Gert [phoen], I think was his name. And on page 3 you said that --

17 page 3, at the bottom, the witness knows a woman who died during child

18 birth but he does not know of any other Muslims who died in the area, and

19 I believe that another one of your statements in your interview says that

20 the only bodies you ever saw were along the road from the blocking area to

21 Potocari and those were casualties of battle. Isn't that what you stated

22 before?

23 A. Where is that --

24 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I was just going to say it's a little

25 confusing. I'm just wondering if perhaps counsel can point specifically

Page 1145

1 to the areas where she is referring to and then ask the question as

2 opposed to asking the two questions in the manner that she just did.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's the correct procedure.

4 MS. SINATRA: I apologise.

5 Q. If we can go back to your statement to Major Gert that you have in

6 front of you, on page 3, didn't you state that "He does not know if any

7 other Muslims died in the place that you didn't see any other deaths at

8 that time"? And this was debriefing shortly after July 20th, when you

9 left?

10 JUDGE LIU: This is the fifth line from the bottom. On page 3.

11 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's true.


14 Q. And then on page 4, if you go halfway up the page in the text, it

15 says, "He did not see any men being ill-treated here." Is that what you

16 stated shortly after you left Srebrenica?

17 A. That's what I stated, yes.

18 Q. And then I'd like to go to your statement, back to the statement

19 with the parliamentary committee, on page 21, when asked by Mrs.

20 Huizinga-Heringa, "Did you also see such things yourself?" Your answer:

21 "No, I didn't see any massacres or liquidations myself." Question: "Or

22 bodies?" Answer: "I did see bodies lying on the ground but they had

23 nothing to do with these matters. I saw these bodies on the side of the

24 road as a result of the hostilities on returning from the blocking

25 position. In that sense, this had nothing to do with the transportation

Page 1146

1 of refugees."

2 Isn't that what you stated to the committee?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, it's time for a break.

6 MS. SINATRA: Okay, thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra, please continue.

11 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. We were just talking about the bodies along the road from the

13 Swedish housing project to Srebrenica or Potocari. You didn't make any

14 report about that, did you?

15 A. It was from the location from the blocking position back to

16 Potocari, and I don't know if I made report earlier than the debriefing in

17 Assen.

18 Q. Thank you. I want to go back to Mr. Karnavas had many questions

19 concerning Mladic, Stalin, Nikolic and Mane. I just want to know if

20 you're clear on the fact that Mladic and Nikolic were part of the military

21 structure of VRS? Were you clear on that?

22 A. I was clear on that, yes.

23 Q. And do you know the difference between the military structure and

24 the military police, which is the ministry of the interior?

25 A. By now I've read a few things about it, in the NIOD Report, but at

Page 1147

1 that time, I all -- I took them all for Serb soldiers, so being part of

2 one big Serb army, more or less.

3 Q. But now you know that Stalin and Mane were part of the military

4 police, right?

5 A. They told me by then they were military police, but like in the

6 Netherlands, military police is also a part of the Defence force.

7 Q. But you know now that that's not true in Republika Srpska, right?

8 A. I read a few things about that but I don't know what -- what is

9 the exact -- what was the exact location of the officers.

10 Q. I would like to ask you also if you've ever heard of this term,

11 Main Staff, in the VRS military structure?

12 A. I've heard of the term General Staff from the VRS. Main Staff

13 I've never heard of that.

14 Q. General Staff was that part of Mladic's domain?

15 A. More or less, the staff from General Mladic, yes.

16 Q. That would be out of Pale?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. I just want to clarify something else. MUP, which I described

19 just then, military -- the ministry of the interior, they are special

20 police, they are not military police, so I made a mistake. I was just

21 informed about that. Do you know the difference? Have you heard the

22 difference between special police and military police? So you may have

23 been correct in your interpretation of that.

24 A. I read a few things about it in the NIOD Report but the only thing

25 I know was that Mane stated to me that they were military police and not

Page 1148

1 what sort of branch or something else.

2 Q. Let me ask you, when you were working with Mane, and I assume that

3 you all had a fairly close working relationship during the last few days

4 of the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th; is that correct?

5 A. Only on the 12th and the 13th.

6 Q. But you were working closely with him on those days, right?

7 A. More or less, yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me if they were uniformed personnel that were working

9 under Mane?

10 A. I cannot remember, I'm sorry.

11 Q. You didn't recognise any insignias on their shoulders or anything?

12 A. Not that I remember, no.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you have been referring to Stalin as a major.

14 Were you familiar with their markings? You've been calling him captain, I

15 think. Were you familiar with the markings on their uniforms?

16 A. I don't know what rank Stalin was. Mane said he was a captain.

17 But I don't know what rank Stalin wore and I did not see it from his

18 uniform.

19 Q. So he may have had no markings on his uniform whatsoever, right?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. You stated in your earlier testimony that Stalin and Mane

22 communicated by radio communications, isn't that true?

23 A. Yes, that's true.

24 Q. It's true that Nikolic had a radio communications device also,

25 wasn't it?

Page 1149

1 A. I don't remember if he wore it or not.

2 Q. Or a telephone or a radio that he was using?

3 A. I didn't see that, no.

4 Q. I want to go to the point where all the other refugees were gone

5 but there were, as I think you testified to, 20 or 30 men left at the

6 white house; is that correct?

7 A. What I remember was that the white house was packed and don't

8 know what my other estimations were about the number of men, but when I

9 think about it now, think back, there must have been two, maybe --

10 somewhere between 200 and 300 men.

11 Q. In the white house?

12 A. In the white house.

13 Q. How many men did you see sitting in the front of the white house?

14 A. With their backs against the front of the white house, there must

15 have been around five or ten and the rest were sitting inside the white

16 house.

17 Q. When they were taken away that evening of the 13th, I suppose, in

18 the truck, that truck was a civilian vehicle that had delivered bread

19 earlier, wasn't it?

20 A. No that was on the 12th, and the men from the white house, the

21 white house was only used on the 13th, and the men from the white house

22 were transported with buses and the men from the front lawn of the two

23 houses adjacent, the zinc factory, they were transported with a lorry,

24 a small truck, that I'd recognise from bringing bread earlier that day but

25 that was on the 12th.

Page 1150

1 Q. So that was a civilian truck that took them on the 12th?

2 A. That was a civilian truck.

3 Q. Thank you. I'd like to go back to your report to the

4 parliamentary committee and if you would look at page 21, please? I

5 believe you stated in the third paragraph up, where it has your name, that

6 the Serbian units were known for their phone tapping techniques. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. That was what we got in the training prior to our deployment in

9 Bosnia.

10 Q. And so if Pieter Boering had said that they didn't have any

11 communications and he didn't know anything about Serbian capabilities, he

12 wouldn't be telling the truth, would he?

13 A. I don't know if he was there during the training when we had that

14 part of the training.

15 Q. Thank you. You stated in your testimony today, going back to

16 Mane, that Mane was baffled that you were loading the buses, isn't that

17 true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In fact, Mane, Lieutenant Koster and Lieutenant Rutten were all

20 baffled that you were loading the buses, weren't they?

21 A. I don't know if Lieutenant Koster was baffled but Lieutenant

22 Rutten was and I don't know if Lieutenant Rutten knew about the precious

23 one and a half hour in the morning of the second day, the transport.

24 Q. Well, let's go to Lieutenant Rutten on page 36, please, of your

25 parliamentary report. Not to 36, I'm sorry. I think that it is -- I'm

Page 1151

1 really sorry, I'm jumping way ahead of myself so if you'll -- I want to go

2 to page 26 of your report while we are there. On page 26, you talk about

3 the operation of separating the men from the women, as something that you

4 would do and that is commonly done in military situations such as this.

5 Didn't you say on page 26 halfway up, that if you think about it, this is

6 exactly what we do? If you want to collect information, you have to

7 separate certain groups of prisoners of war and therefore keep the men

8 apart to find out what information they can provide. So separating the

9 men was not such a strange thing to do.

10 MS. ISSA: Your Honour I'm going to object to that. I think

11 that's taken out of context. Perhaps Ms. Sinatra could start reading the

12 question before the remaining answer so we could be put into context.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, maybe you could read this paragraph. This answer

14 again to the witness.

15 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, the witness can verify this one way or

16 the other, and I intend to ask to have this introduced into evidence so

17 the Trial Chamber will be able to see everything in its complete context

18 but if you'd like for me to read the question, I will be happy to.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


21 Q. "The moment which you started to fear the worst for the fate of

22 the Muslim men was when you found the pile of identity cards. Before that

23 you tried to go with them and escort the buses. Did you believe the

24 statements made by the Serbs?" And your answer: "At the time, I believed

25 the statements made by the Serbs --"

Page 1152

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down. Thank you.

2 MS. SINATRA: "-- that they were removing the men to find

3 out whether they were war criminals. If you think about it, this is

4 exactly what we do. If you want to collect information, you have to

5 separate certain groups of prisoners of war and you therefore keep the men

6 apart to find out what information they can provide. So separating the

7 men was not such a strange thing to do."

8 Is that what you testified to?

9 A. That's what I said and you have to see that in the context of when

10 you have prisoners of war, then you put them into groups, you put soldiers

11 together with other soldiers, you put officers together with others

12 officers to find information within that group. So you make groups of

13 the big group of prisoners of war so that was more or less like the

14 instructions we have and we do when you have prisoners of war and treat

15 them according to the convention of Geneva.

16 Q. So it gave you the presumption that this -- or the appearance that

17 this was a legitimate military operation, didn't it?

18 A. That was not the idea I got, but you must not forget that we were

19 no longer in control so the only option I had was to find out what they

20 were going to do and if they had done it in a military operation, it would

21 not be very strange.

22 Q. Isn't that what you said in your statement, right?

23 A. More or less, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. I want to go back to this page 26. You testified

25 earlier about the location and your finding the passports and personal

Page 1153

1 belongings of the men in the white house after the transport had already

2 been completed, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The rest of your testimony about this, to complete the story, is

5 that you actually went and picked up all these passports and stuffed your

6 trousers full with them, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then after that, you went to speak to Mane, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then after you spoke to Mane, you left those passports at the

11 house, didn't you?

12 A. I don't know if I did that before I spoke to Mane or after that,

13 but like I stated to the parliamentary inquiry committee, I had no

14 explanation for leaving the passports at the site. I don't remember why I

15 did it.

16 Q. Thank you. Now I want to go back to the part where it's

17 consistent all the way through this document that you found those

18 passports, you had custody of those passports, you spoke to the Serbian

19 commander but you didn't come away with the passports, did you?

20 A. I did not take the passports with me, no.

21 Q. And that you stated today in your testimony that you did not think

22 that it was relevant information for Colonel Karremans to have at that

23 moment, didn't you?

24 A. The story about the passports, you meant?

25 Q. Right. That was your prior testimony today.

Page 1154

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you didn't report the story about picking up the passports and

3 having them all in your control when you were debriefed in Zagreb, did

4 you?

5 A. That was a military debrief and I don't know if I mentioned it

6 there but I assume that was not the case because the debrief was not about

7 the stories around the events but more about the military operation.

8 Q. In fact, in your debriefing in Assen, you didn't exactly tell the

9 whole story about the passport incident, did you?

10 A. I know I told it there, the whole story, I don't know how complete

11 it was getting into the debrief report.

12 Q. So if it was left out of General Van der Windt's report then it

13 was a tactical strategy, strategic decision on the part of your

14 commanders, wasn't it?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know why they left it out of the big

16 report. I only know that it was in my debriefing report.

17 Q. Okay. You testified today and yesterday that once you found these

18 passports that you called to the command centre and you told them that

19 they needed to have an escort for these buses, isn't that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. But it's not in any of your reports about this request, is it?

22 A. I think that was not getting into the -- in my report, no.

23 Q. And going back to your incident with Lieutenant Rutten.

24 Lieutenant Rutten came out the morning you were loading the buses on your

25 own initiative and he asked you why in the world you were cooperating with

Page 1155

1 these Serbs, didn't he?

2 A. He came in the afternoon and by then the Serbs were already there

3 again.

4 Q. Was that his question to you, though?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And isn't it true that on page 36 of this report, that Lieutenant

7 Rutten had expressed that you had committed a war crime?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. SINATRA: I have no other questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any redirect? Ms. Issa?

11 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour, thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, questions by Judge Vassylenko.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Have you read the book named "Srebrenica, who

15 cares?" Which was written by Lieutenant Karremans?

16 A. I've read some pieces from the book but not the whole book.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: What is your assessment of these pieces of the

18 book?

19 A. I've only read a few pieces but what I can deduct from that, it

20 was a very personal story from Colonel Karremans.

21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I presume that you're aware of Netherlands

22 institute documentation report on Srebrenica?

23 A. Yes, they have interviewed me as well.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what is your assessment of this report?

25 A. I think this is a very good report that is very complete and I'm

Page 1156

1 actually very glad that they could find Muslim men that, when I talk about

2 the stage when I started, the transports, on the second day of the

3 transportations, which was worth the discussion to a few of my colleagues.

4 I'm very glad that they found Muslim men that escaped from the Serb net

5 and got away from Srebrenica alive.

6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: My next question: Captain, could you describe

7 the relations between the DutchBat and -- on the one hand, and the Serbian

8 forces and Muslim forces on the other hand, before the tragic events in

9 July?

10 A. Those were very difficult relationships. On the one hand, our

11 unit and of course the Muslim refugees were in a terrible situation

12 because of the Serb forces. On the other hand, we were being shot at by

13 both parties, Serb forces as well as the Muslim forces, and we were trying

14 to keep a peace that was not there, and maintain a truce that was no

15 truce, but at the same time, we were speaking and looking at a big group

16 of refugees that we could not help of -- that we could not help, as hard

17 as we tried. So we were in the middle of groups of people that we on the

18 other hand could not help, and the other side were shooting us. So we had

19 difficult relations with both parties.

20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And how can you describe the relations on this

21 crucial dates at the beginning, in the middle of July, 1995?

22 A. It was clear to us that the Serb forces at those days were the

23 aggressors and we wanted to stop the Serb advancement. We -- I was

24 confronted with Muslim soldiers when I was standing in the blocking

25 position, which refused to help the Muslim refugees that were not able to

Page 1157

1 walk any more, to flee to the north. So we tried to take as much as we

2 could on our APC and in our APCs, and our main concern on that, in those

3 days, was the fate of the refugees, and trying to keep an area under our

4 control, more or less, as a safe area.

5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Captain, have you ever met or contacted the

6 accused in this case, Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Jokic, as well as

7 Mr. Obrenovic and Mr. Nikolic at that time?

8 A. No, not that I remember.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: The last question: Have you any idea why the

10 Serb captain or major or platoon commander was nicknamed Stalin?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Who nicknamed him? The DutchBat or the Muslims

13 or the Serbs?

14 A. No. He was nicknamed by the Serbs themselves and he used it maybe

15 as it was just a code name on the radio, but the Serbs -- it was a name

16 given by the Serbs themselves.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. I have no questions. Thank you,

18 Captain.

19 JUDGE LIU: Judge Argibay, please.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good even evening, Captain. I have only one

21 question and it's a clarification. When you were talking about trying to

22 get escort or accompanying the buses in the last day and you said you

23 radioed your headquarters, had you had any answer on that point from the

24 headquarters?

25 A. The operations officer from our battalion headquarters said he was

Page 1158

1 trying everything he could to escort the buses, and in that chaotic

2 situation, that was the best possible answer I could expect.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Did you get reinforcements or something?

4 A. We did in the get reinforcements. At that time we did not need

5 reinforcements. We just needed vehicles with UN soldiers in them to

6 escort the buses.

7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Did you get them?

8 A. I did not get them, and I don't know if the buses were accompanied

9 by the UN, but I heard that that was not the case.

10 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you, Captain. No further questions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions out of Judges' questions?

12 MS. ISSA: No, thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, I do have a couple of questions.

15 Further cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

16 Q. And this is in respect to the answer that you gave to

17 Judge Vassylenko's question about the relationships and you indicated the

18 situation was bad because of the Serb forces. That's your understanding,

19 right?

20 A. Because our convoys did not get clearance from the Serb forces,

21 that was the main reason why we had lack of food, medical supplies, and

22 all the things we needed for hygiene and stuff like that.

23 Q. Okay. In the Krstic trial, according to the judgement rendered in

24 that case, in paragraph 30 of the judgement, it indicates that on the

25 morning of the 26th of June, 1995, there was a raid by Muslim military on

Page 1159

1 to a Serb village where they ended up burning some houses and killing some

2 Serbs. Don't you think that that would somehow exacerbate the situation?

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I gave you a chance to ask some

4 questions but the scope should be within the questions asked by the

5 Judges.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: I believe that this question is out of the scope of

8 Judge Vassylenko's question.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well but with all due respect, Your Honour,

10 the answer that was given, there seems to be a total blame of the

11 situation in Srebrenica because of the Serb forces, and obviously his

12 answer is that there was a -- the Serbs were preventing humanitarian aid

13 or food aid from going in. That's one part of the equation. The other

14 part of the equation might be that the Muslim forces were using the

15 enclave as a staging ground to commit atrocities and that might be also

16 the reason why some of the aid wasn't or the food wasn't going into the

17 enclave and I'm merely pointing out whether he was aware of this or not,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this issue has been debated for

20 many times and the witness of course has his own view. If you have a

21 different case, I think at a later stage, you may cross other witnesses or

22 you could present your evidence in this aspect.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Sinatra?

Page 1160

1 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour I have a couple of questions.

2 Further cross-examination by Ms. Sinatra:

3 Q. Lieutenant, based on one of the questions about you moving the

4 refugees from the blocking point to the safety of Potocari, whatever that

5 might have been at the time, you did state just then that the Muslim

6 forces refused to help the refugees fleeing at that time, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And going back to the question about your radio contact on the

9 13th, after all of the transport had left, you called back to central

10 command and you said it's very important that we have escorts with these

11 buses; is that right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. That request was not in any of your reports and at that time, you

14 never mentioned --

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, this question is also outside of

16 the scope of Judge Vassylenko's question. I'm not going to give you

17 another chance for cross-examination.

18 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I was just trying to clarify the

19 communications, the time that that telephone --

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point

21 they are using this to grandstand in order to condemn this man personally.

22 It's outrageous, I would strongly object to it. Enough is enough.

23 MS. SINATRA: I'm not going to compete with Mr. McCloskey for

24 grandstanding but I would like to thank the witness I think he's a brave

25 soldier and I really have empathy for the position they were in.

Page 1161

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may for the record. I do take

3 offence to Mr. McCloskey's comment. He used "they." Nobody is

4 grandstanding and there is a proper way of objecting and I think it's

5 totally inappropriate and nobody is trying to demean this individual or to

6 embarrass him and if that's his characterisation, then he can keep it to

7 himself or he can object in a proper form.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm not sure whether this "they" is including

9 you or not. Any way, at this stage are there any documents to tender from

10 the Prosecution side?

11 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. I'll be tendering Exhibits 51

12 through 56 as well as the last exhibit which I think is correctly marked

13 as 2.6/A. I think I incorrectly referred to it as 20.6 earlier. It's

14 actually 2.6/A.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for this correction. Any

16 objections? Mr. Karnavas?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Sinatra?

19 MS. SINATRA: No objections, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So those documents are admitted

21 into evidence. Are there any documents that the Defence team would like

22 to tender? Mr. Karnavas?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, in keeping with your earlier --

24 I mean normally I would tender everything I submitted but I leave it up to

25 the Trial Chamber to decide but I understand that your earlier order was

Page 1162

1 that these sorts of documents, because they are quote unquote hearsay,

2 need not come in if the witness has testified from them so the answer is I

3 think I would tender them but I understand your previous ruling and I

4 would abide by that ruling and I suspect that the Prosecution is going to

5 be jumping up and down objecting to the hearsay nature of these documents

6 any way.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Ms. Issa?

8 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour, on the same grounds we objected to

9 with respect to the other witness. As Your Honour indicated earlier this

10 witness has testified live and it's not necessary to tender these

11 documents at this time.

12 JUDGE LIU: I'm not quite sure it's about that report of the

13 hearings of parliamentary committee.

14 MS. ISSA: There is no objection with respect to that report, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So this document, document D10/1

17 is admitted into evidence. Any documents that the Defence of Mr. Jokic

18 would like to tender at this stage?

19 MS. SINATRA: No, Your Honour, we would just like the record to

20 reflect that D10/1 would also reflect our impeachment the witness also as

21 a D2 document also.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: That's possible. Thank you very much.

25 Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your evidence and

Page 1163

1 we all wish you good luck. The usher will show you out of the room. You

2 may go now.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have a few minutes left so there are

7 several issues I would like to discuss with counsels. The first matter is

8 about the counsel issues. At the beginning of this sitting, this

9 afternoon, Mr. Blagojevic raised the issue of the fair representation. We

10 believe that this Trial Chamber has made a decision to this effect, and

11 this Trial Chamber has already informed Mr. Blagojevic that if he could

12 seek certification for leave to appeal this decision, if he's not

13 satisfied with it. We also have been informed that the independent

14 counsel will discuss this matter with Mr. Blagojevic on Monday and

15 Tuesday, and we are also informed that the translation into the B/C/S of

16 that decision has been distributed. According to Rule 73, the time period

17 for the application of certification to this Trial Chamber will start from

18 yesterday, which means from yesterday, there will be seven days, within

19 the seven days Mr. Blagojevic, after consulting the independent counsel

20 assigned by this Chamber, could file an application for certification to

21 appeal this decision. And this Trial Chamber will render its decision

22 whether to permit the certification in seven days.

23 After rendering this decision, Mr. Blagojevic and his independent

24 counsel also have seven days to file their appeal to the Appeals Chamber

25 on the substance. So I believe there are plenty of time for them to

Page 1164

1 discuss this matter and to prepare the appeal. After filing of the

2 appeal, I believe, if I'm wrong, somebody could correct me, I believe that

3 Mr. Karnavas also has the right to file a reply to the Appeals Chamber.

4 It is our intention to continue to finish hearing of the witnesses in that

5 witness list before the summer recess, because this Trial Chamber has made

6 a decision in this aspect and will abide by it, unless a decision made by

7 the Appeals Chamber says otherwise.

8 There is one matter I would like to bring to the attention of both

9 parties. That is as we understand it, the first group of witnesses, of

10 sort of the background witnesses, and after the first group of witnesses,

11 we will have some more substantial witnesses in this case. Pending the

12 decision of the Appeals Chamber concerning the counsel issues, are we

13 going to proceed despite any decisions by the Appeals Chamber or we just

14 delay the hearings until the picture is more clear? Any comments from the

15 parties? We are not going to make a decision. I'm just going to hear the

16 initial response from the parties. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's clear to the Prosecution that the Trial

18 Chamber and everyone, Mr. Karnavas and all are trying to work a solution

19 to this, and the question you pose is the difficult question. We will

20 give it some very serious thought and try to have a response for you, and

21 I think what is also clear to the record is that Mr. Karnavas is available

22 and ready to speak to his client and that his client would be well served

23 to speak to him, and that what's going on here is the client's, as the

24 Court showed in one of its rulings, is the client has chosen this

25 muteness. The Prosecution, of course, would prefer that they are able to

Page 1165

1 speak to each other so that we can get on with it. Because we would

2 prefer to get on with it. We also do not want to come back again. So we

3 will consider this critical question about the Appellate Chamber and

4 perhaps the Appellate Chamber could give us an idea of how much time it

5 may take them.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Karnavas?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, in light of the position that I find

8 myself in, when I say I, meaning myself and Ms. Tomanovic, I don't think

9 it's appropriate for me to voice an opinion on this matter. And so I will

10 do whatever the Court instructs me to do.

11 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Sinatra?

12 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, the team for Mr. Jokic will take

13 no position in this decision dealing with the counsel for Blagojevic but

14 if the Court would allow me to address the upcoming witnesses, Obrenovic

15 and Nikolic, after you finish this, I would like to address that issue.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.

17 MS. SINATRA: May I do it now?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MS. SINATRA: Thank you. I know that the Prosecution has said

20 that they are going to bring Mr. Obrenovic and Mr. Nikolic to testify

21 after the break in August. As Defence counsels, Mr. Stojanovic and I for

22 Mr. Jokic, we cannot be prepared to cross-examine Mr. Obrenovic at that

23 time. We have not received any funds from the Registry. We cannot pursue

24 investigations in the Zvornik area to find witnesses that will give us

25 information and support any positions that we might have on

Page 1166

1 cross-examination of the most important witness to come to testify against

2 Mr. Jokic. I think that in all fairness and as far as due process goes

3 for Mr. Jokic, we ask and implore this Court to postpone that testimony

4 until we get some funds from the Registry in order to secure

5 investigations back in the Zvornik area and we cannot be prepared between

6 now and then. We have not initiated an investigation at this point

7 because we have no funds.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's another matter. I certainly will convey

9 your idea to the Registry but I'm not sure what the results will be. In

10 this case, anyway, I believe that Mr. Jokic is not a party to this dispute

11 but is an affected third party because he has the right to have a fair and

12 expeditious trial.

13 Mr. Blagojevic. Thank you.

14 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Blagojevic? Do you have something to say to this

16 matter? Have you got translation in B/C/S of the decision made by this

17 Trial Chamber?

18 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 Yesterday I have not had time to read it but I now have enough time in

20 light of the procedure that you have just explained, Your Honour, to do

21 it. I believe I will be able to respect the procedure that you have

22 suggested and I don't think that there is any need to say anything else on

23 the subject, but just to let you know that I still abide by my position,

24 but to be perfectly frank, I have thought about the matter thoroughly and

25 with full responsibility, but at the end of the game, I must say that I am

Page 1167

1 disappointed with the rootless, irresponsible accusation for criminal

2 behaviour on my account by the person who is supposed to defend me in this

3 very difficult and complex case. I know that this feeling of

4 disappointment is a separate issue and have nothing to do with the

5 documents that actually led me to lose my trust in the previously

6 appointed counsel. I have lost all hope in his ability to be objective,

7 reasonable and to lead my defence in a rational and responsible way

8 through this trial. This trust cannot be restored in any way. There are

9 no elements whatsoever for such a position. And in order to clear my

10 mind, in order to dispel this confusion, I am compelled to seek for

11 another solution. I do not intend to defend myself on my own. I'm not

12 qualified for that. I'm not capable for that. I need to choose a

13 professional, a man who will be able to represent me with full

14 responsibility, professionally and with credibility. I do not have

15 anything else to add, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for your statement. You may

17 sit down, please. You have to remember that this Trial Chamber said

18 clearly that we encourage you to rebuild your relationship with

19 Mr. Karnavas and Ms. Tomanovic because we believe through our decision

20 they are still your counsel. And I would like also to inform you that if

21 you do in the appeal this decision to the Appeals Chamber, our decision

22 will be final.

23 Now, during the past few days, I believe Mr. Karnavas did a good

24 job. He vigorously defended your interests, effectively cross-examined

25 the witnesses, and tendered some important documents into evidence. Of

Page 1168

1 course, there are some problems on his part. I'll come to it later. But

2 I believe that he could do his job well. There is nothing impossible in

3 this world.

4 Well, Mr. McCloskey, you said that you'll come back to this issue

5 later. You mean that you'll file something in written form. The first

6 thing I have to make clear is whenever we finish the first group of

7 witnesses, we will not hear any more witnesses before the summer recess.

8 We are talking about the period after the summer recess. Are you going to

9 file something in this aspect?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as I've had a chance to just think

11 and sit and listen a bit, and to everyone, and considering the importance

12 of the post-recess evidence, though I also -- we will hear from the

13 survivors in the next few weeks, I think -- as reluctant as I am to stop

14 again, because I think we are beginning to get a good rhythm in going

15 forward, I think out of an abundance of caution and safety for the record

16 I think it would be best to have the Appellate Chamber review this matter

17 and come to the quickest and fairest possible decision.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm asking you whether you're going to file a

19 written comments or statements in this aspect or not.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, should Mr. Blagojevic and

21 Mr. Sjocrona file a vigorous appeal that will address the issues before

22 the Trial Chamber, the Prosecution may not have any need to enter this

23 particular fray. Our concern is that these issues, and they are

24 important, they are serious and they need to be carefully dealt with by

25 the Trial Chamber and our interest of course in it is the fact that we do

Page 1169

1 not want to ask these witnesses to testify again. As for the conflict

2 between counsel and these issues we have made our position initially

3 clear. However, we are not privy to all the important documents, nor do I

4 think it appropriate that we should be. In that respect, we may very well

5 side step -- step aside on this issue and allow the parties to sort it

6 out. If we find that the issue is not going to be appealed or that it is

7 not appropriately dealt with, we may very well want to add something in

8 order that the Appellate Chamber be fully briefed on the issue so that

9 they can make the best ruling possible. We may suggest in that regard

10 that our deadline for filing a request for certification of appeal be one

11 or two days after the deadline of the others, that it would allow us to

12 look at their documents and it would be my feeling at this time, having

13 seen some of the legal work that has come out of Mr. Sjocrona, that he's

14 very capable of filing a response that will cover the appropriate issues,

15 and I know Mr. Karnavas will do the same, and in that case, the Office of

16 the Prosecutor need not be involved, and that would be my first choice.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, maybe I did not make myself

18 clear. I think we are talking about different things. You are talking

19 about the appeal on the Trial Chamber's decision. And I'm talking about

20 the scheduling arrangements after the summer recess. As the first issue,

21 I did not look into the jurisprudence of this Tribunal, but if

22 Mr. Blagojevic or his independent counsel did not appeal, I don't think

23 you have the right to appeal, because you are not a party. The party to

24 this dispute. You are -- I think your status is more or less the same

25 with Ms. Sinatra, with Mr. Jokic. You are affected third party but not

Page 1170

1 the party to that dispute. So I wonder where is your standing to this

2 case, to this issue, if Mr. Blagojevic does not appeal? This is the first

3 issue. Maybe I'm wrong. The second issue is my concern is pending the

4 decision of the Appeals Chamber on the counsel issues, are we going to

5 continue to sit or we just make a short period delay waiting for the

6 decision from the Appeals Chamber? This is the second issue. What I want

7 is your response to the second issue, but not the first one.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Understood, Mr. President. I don't think we need

9 to file anything unless you would like us to on that issue. I can state

10 today that I think it would be best to have a stay of the proceedings so

11 that we can get a clear roadmap from the Appellate Chamber and then go

12 full speed ahead when we get that. That would be my -- we thought quite a

13 bit about this actually and I did want to take into account what everyone

14 is saying and with Mr. Obrenovic and Mr. Nikolic testifying, and other --

15 Mr. Butler and some of the other witnesses, it probably would be the best

16 approach.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It's a very clear answer. Thank

18 you.

19 There are some comments from this bench. Yes, any problem,

20 Mr. Blagojevic?

21 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just

22 would like to clarify something for myself. These deadlines that you have

23 listed here, do they obligate Mr. Sjocrona or me, or am I supposed to act

24 upon these deadlines regardless of the obligation of Mr. Sjocrona

25 considering that he's an independent counsel who has been appointed, then

Page 1171

1 he should be -- this should be binding for him. However, if his

2 appointment has ceased because the way I've understood it in a way his

3 appointment has been suspended, the representatives in the Registry have

4 told me that he has stopped acting on my behalf, then am I supposed to do

5 this by myself, to file an appeal by myself? I can try and find my way in

6 this because I would like to appeal but I would like the independent

7 counsel, this one or another one, I would like him to fulfil the task of

8 Mr. Sjocrona, that somehow this can be resolved and terminated.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much to bring to our attention

10 about your concern on this issue. First of all, I can assure you that the

11 independent counsel's mandate will continue and it will cover the whole

12 period of the appeal. I'm pretty sure about it. And you could discuss

13 this matter with Mr. Sjocrona next Monday or Tuesday, and discuss your --

14 any actions you would like to take.

15 Secondly, I can assure you that, as I did before, that this Trial

16 Chamber will extend the period of time for you to seek certification until

17 after you have a chance to read the decision and to discuss it with the

18 independent counsel. So I believe, theoretically speaking, those time

19 limits applied to you and to your independent counsel, but you need more

20 time, please feel free to let us know. We could extend the time period

21 for your preparation of that application for appeal.

22 Thank you. There are some comments from this bench at the

23 conclusion of the four testimonies. Normally we do not make comments

24 about the presentation of the case, the direct examination or

25 cross-examination but we found it necessary to take this opportunity to

Page 1172

1 share some observations and comments with the parties.

2 First, we believe that the witness who came to testify in this

3 Tribunal must be treated with dignity and respect. The Trial Chamber will

4 not tolerate the retraumatisation of these individuals for the purpose of

5 Prosecution or in the names of Defence. I think I have mentioned that

6 before. I will not repeat it. The purpose of this trial is to determine

7 the individual criminal responsibility of two persons, Mr. Blagojevic and

8 Mr. Jokic. While other persons have been indicted for crimes in and

9 around Srebrenica during the course of the war in that area, this trial is

10 to determine only whether the acts and omissions of these two individuals

11 warrant a finding of guilty or not guilty of the crimes alleged in the

12 indictment.

13 While the indictment in this case is focused on the summer and

14 fall, 1995, the Trial Chamber appreciates that some historical background

15 and the context may be useful to its full understanding of the charges.

16 It is not however an invitation to raise crimes committed by others or

17 prior events as the justification for any criminal act. Questions to this

18 effect will not be permitted.

19 Finally, this Trial Chamber would like to draw the attention of

20 the counsels from both sides, the differences between this Tribunal and

21 any domestic jurisdictions. In this Tribunal, judges and not jury, are

22 the finders of fact. The Trial Chamber would like to advise all counsels

23 to take this into account when considering the substance and even the

24 style of their submissions, examinations, conduct, before the Trial

25 Chamber. And those comments are applicable to both parties. Later on,

Page 1173

1 we'll have some victim witnesses. I hope both parties will bear that in

2 mind.

3 At this stage, is there anything that the parties would like to

4 bring to the attention of this bench? Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, is this a good time to talk about the

6 dates for the summer recess? That was something we talked to your counsel

7 about or we can just -- it's getting late, maybe we cannot worry about

8 that.

9 JUDGE LIU: If you want to say something, yes, say it publicly.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Given some of the -- specifically that

11 Mr. Obrenovic now will be testifying after the break, along with

12 Mr. Nikolic and others, I think there is an additional work load on

13 everyone and that I think -- I know that counsel for both Jokic and

14 Blagojevic would appreciate, with the Prosecution, to start up again the

15 first week of September as opposed to I believe August 25th. That would

16 give us all a little more room to get our work done and as you know there

17 has been some additional documents that are being translated that I think

18 all the parties need to take a look at, and I think Ms. Sinatra has

19 mentioned some other work that they need to have done. And that one week

20 would be very helpful for us to get started. Of course this is in

21 addition to the problem we've already discussed.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any comments or response? Mr. Karnavas?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would concur with the

24 Prosecutor on this issue. We do have some additional work. We are --

25 this is the Nikolic Obrenovic issues have put a bit of strain on our

Page 1174

1 resources, physical resources, I should say, not financial, so I think it

2 would be worthwhile and in keeping with what's going to be happening with

3 the appeal, I think it all makes sense.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to join to what has

6 been proposed, Your Honours, but bearing in mind the importance for the

7 Defence of Dragan Jokic, the testimony of Dragan Obrenovic and the

8 evidence that we received a few days ago from the Prosecutor's Office, it

9 wouldn't be a bad idea to even delay the time even further of starting

10 after the recess. However, considering what you've -- from the --

11 everything that's been said, perhaps this will happen in any case for some

12 other reasons so there could be a solution found in all this when we are

13 speaking about the time that the trial will restart after the recess.

14 Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We are not in the position to

16 make a ruling at this moment but we'll take into consideration all the

17 submissions by the parties and we'll render a scheduling order to this

18 effect one week or two weeks before the recess.

19 The hearing is adjourned.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 6.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

22 the 14th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.