Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1412

1 Tuesday, 22 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-02-60-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Issa.

10 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry.

12 MS. SINATRA: I'm so sorry too.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

14 MS. SINATRA: I just wanted to offer a thought to the Court. I

15 know how traumatised this victim has been and our hearts go out to him to

16 have to come and relive this testimony again. The team of Mr. Jokic would

17 be willing to forego his having to tell that story again with just a

18 stipulation to two paragraphs in the Krstic transcript. If the

19 Prosecution would agree with that, we would not even ask that this witness

20 have to go any further into the traumas and the nightmares hat he has had

21 to live through.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends on the situation from the

23 Prosecution. Yes, Ms. Issa.

24 MS. ISSA: Well, Your Honour, I don't think that I have much more

25 to go through in any event. The witness is here and I think he is

Page 1413

1 prepared to continue his testimony and we are prepared to proceed. I

2 appreciate what Ms. Sinatra is saying, but he is here. We might as well

3 finish the live testimony, in my respectful submission.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could you tell me how long you are going to take

5 for your direct examination.

6 MS. ISSA: I would anticipate that I would have 20 more minutes or

7 so to complete the direct examination. We are almost complete.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

9 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I just have one more matter to bring

10 up. I know that we all have to have understanding and cooperation as

11 we're trying to put on our witnesses in each case. But consistently with

12 every witness the Prosecution wants to put on, the morning the witness is

13 to testify they are offering us new evidence which we have not had time to

14 consider. I believe it's the duty of the Prosecutor to prepare their case

15 before the morning that the witness is put on the stand and I'd ask that

16 we be given more notice instead of being handed the documents on the day

17 the witness testifies.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I want to ask whether your intervention is

19 directly concerning this witness or with the future witness.

20 MS. SINATRA: With the next witness, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: I'll give you another opportunity after we finish this

22 witness.

23 MS. SINATRA: Okay, I'm sorry, wrong time.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa. You may continue.

25 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. And before I do, I just want

Page 1414

1 to indicate, as Your Honour may be aware, that Mr. McCloskey is unable to

2 be here today and for the remainder of the week. He sends his apologies

3 to the Court, but he had to leave rather suddenly on a family emergency.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS P-111 [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Ms. Issa: [Continued]

7 Q. Now, sir, just to quickly to refresh your memory from yesterday

8 you were telling us that the Serb soldiers tied your hands together and

9 pushed you into a second classroom. Can you tell us what happened next.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm sorry, Witness, we don't get the

11 interpretation. Maybe there's some technical problem.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

13 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Would you please

14 continue. Maybe Ms. Issa could repeat her question to you.

15 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, can you please tell us what happened after you were pushed

17 into the second classroom by the Serb soldiers after they tied your hands

18 together.

19 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I am going to have to object to the

20 leading form of the question. You might -- the proper way to ask, I

21 believe, would be to say what happened when you went into the classroom.

22 I don't believe she has to exactly state everything he said when we begin

23 again. He has to tell his story instead of Ms. Issa telling it for him.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think Ms. Issa just picked up where we left

25 yesterday. The witness testified yesterday that their hands were tied

Page 1415

1 together and they came to the second classroom. I don't see there's any

2 problems.

3 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Ms. Issa.

5 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. You can please go ahead and answer that question, sir.

7 THE INTERPRETER: There is no sound coming from the witness.

8 MS. ISSA: I think we're still having technical difficulties, Your

9 Honour.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can hear you.

11 MS. ISSA:

12 Q. I think you can try and answer that question again, sir, please.

13 A. They continued to push us in. And after everyone's hands had been

14 tied from my classroom, we were then told that we would be going out one

15 by one, going down the stairs.

16 Q. And did that happen at some point?

17 A. Yes. People started leaving, getting out. I was somewhere in the

18 middle. I was never among the first or among the last, out of fear. We

19 were going down these stairs, the same stairs we had gone up to to get in.

20 And as we were going out of the school, considering that I was barefooted,

21 I felt that I had some stuff sticking to my feet, to the soles of my feet.

22 And I was able to feel many dead in front of the school.

23 Q. All right. And where did you go when you left the school?

24 A. Well, some were at the same location, the lorry. There was a

25 lorry, but it was facing the direction we had come from. And we were tied

Page 1416

1 so we couldn't get on the lorry by ourselves, but they had placed a ledge,

2 they had placed a board so that we could get in the back of the lorry.

3 And when they had loaded a lorry full, then they closed the sides, rather

4 the side, and told us to sit down. But we couldn't sit down. There were

5 so many of us that we just couldn't sit down.

6 Q. And what happened after you entered into the lorry?

7 A. Well, then we couldn't -- we couldn't sit down, and the firing

8 started. Probably one of the soldiers was firing through the lorry.

9 Somebody next to me started shouting. I think somebody was wounded.

10 Q. Can you describe what happened after the lorry started moving.

11 A. Well, when people started screaming and when firing started,

12 that's when we started falling over each other. We were falling about.

13 Somehow, we had to sit down, but we couldn't sit down. I know that I was

14 standing right next to the side of the lorry on my knees, and the lorry in

15 the meantime had set off. I know behind me, I recognised the man. I

16 don't know how I recognised him. It was dark, so I asked, I asked for his

17 name. I asked if that was him. It was a teacher of mine from the

18 Srebrenica school.

19 Q. And what did he say?

20 A. He said he was. He said that was him. And he asked me who I was

21 and who my family were.

22 Q. And what happened next?

23 A. In the meantime, while this was happening, the lorry was driving

24 somewhere. We don't know where it was going to. But approximately, it

25 was some ten minutes. It was going along the asphalt road. And after

Page 1417

1 that, it continued on the macadam road because the lorry was shaking. It

2 was an uneven surface that it was driving on. And it stopped at a place,

3 and we could hear bursts of fire next to the lorry. There was shooting.

4 Q. Did anyone leave the lorry at some point?

5 A. Yes. After a while, they opened the side, and we were told to

6 leave the lorry, to get off.

7 Q. Were you all told to get off the lorry at once?

8 A. No, no, five at a time. Five at a time. And then in

9 approximately one minute, and they stood somewhere, then bursts of fire

10 were heard, and that would have been each time. In each time, that was

11 repeated. One man I knew -- another man I knew, he was behind me, and he

12 had untied himself and asked me: "Do you want me to untie you?" I said:

13 "No, there's no need to do that."

14 Q. Why did you say that? Why did you refuse to be untied?

15 A. Well, we understood that was the end, so there was no need.

16 Q. Do you know what happened to the man who managed to untie himself?

17 A. Well, when his turn came, he jumped off the lorry, and he was

18 holding the hands on his back, behind his back pretending that he was

19 still tied. And then suddenly, he pushed the soldiers aside with his

20 hands, and he started running off. It was dark, and shots could be heard

21 immediately. The next day, I was able to see that he had nowhere to

22 escape to, and he's no longer alive today.

23 Q. All right. And after that incident with the man who attempted to

24 escape, can you describe what happened next.

25 A. Well, one of the men started to shout and scream. Perhaps he

Page 1418

1 recognised a Serb soldier. I don't know how. But I know that he was

2 shouting: "I looked after the flat of you and your mothers, and I

3 protected it, and you are killing innocent people."

4 Q. Did any of the other men in the lorry say anything to the Serb

5 soldiers?

6 A. Yes. We asked for water. And many people were screaming "Give us

7 water and then kill us." We were really so thirsty, we just couldn't take

8 it any more, even if we were going to be killed within moments of that.

9 Q. Did you at some point leave the lorry?

10 A. Yes. I got off when it was my turn. But like the others, we were

11 all biding our time. We were playing for time. We were just living for

12 another extra few seconds.

13 Q. What happened when you got off the lorry?

14 A. When it was my turn, I jumped off with the others, and I felt on

15 my feet that there were stones. They were hurting my feet. And we were

16 told that we should find a spot. I didn't know what kind of a spot, but

17 when we went behind the lorry, to the right of the lorry, and when we

18 approached I saw rows of dead people on the ground. You could feel them.

19 Q. And what happened when you found a spot?

20 A. Well, it was all happening very, very quickly, so there were rows

21 in front, and there were rows to the right and behind us afterwards. But

22 when I got to the spot, I was -- I had my back turned to them, and I

23 didn't see how many soldiers there were, and I wasn't even watching. And

24 then -- and then we were told to lie down.

25 Q. And did you lie down?

Page 1419

1 A. Well, tied as I was, I tried to fall on my front to lie down,

2 rather than fall -- not to save myself. There was no sense in thinking

3 that.

4 Q. Well --

5 A. And when I started to fall, the firing started. I don't remember

6 any more about that moment. I just know that when I was lying down, I

7 could feel the pain on the right elbow and the right side of my chest.

8 Q. And while you were lying there, could you hear or see anything?

9 A. Well, on my right-hand side, I don't know whether it was the next

10 group or some other group, but I was able to see people. I was able to

11 see men as their turn would come. And one of the Serb soldiers said to

12 one of the men: "Tell Allah Akbar."

13 Q. And what did that man do?

14 A. He said, he said it. And I recognised that man by his voice. It

15 was an elderly man. In fact, he had sat next to me on the lorry, and he

16 was at the school building. And then firing started.

17 Q. What happened when they fired the second time?

18 A. Well, they were still bringing out more groups in the second row

19 to my right. But when the next row was being filled up and when they came

20 somewhere behind me, when shooting started, that's when I was hit in my

21 foot. And the bullets were whizzing past me. They were whistling past.

22 I was just twitching from that, and I was waiting to be hit.

23 Q. Did the Serb soldiers say anything after they were finished

24 shooting?

25 A. Yes. One of the soldiers said something mentioning a man called

Page 1420

1 Jovo and said we should look over everyone. Whoever's body is still warm,

2 he needs a bullet to the head.

3 Q. And what happened after they made this comment?

4 A. Well, the soldier replied, cursing "What the hell, they're dead."

5 Q. Do you know whether or not at that point everyone was dead?

6 A. No. There were people who were injured because next to me, there

7 was a man who was wounded, on my right. He was groaning so loudly that

8 the soldiers were able to hear it. And I don't know whether they had

9 checked over everyone, but I know that I was turned to the right, and my

10 head was in the direction, lying in the direction of that man in front of

11 me. And at one moment, I just had this soldier's boot in front of my

12 face.

13 Q. And what happened to that man who was lying in front of you?

14 A. Well, I saw the soldier who stepped over me, stopped in front of

15 my face. I had my eyes open, but it was dark. And suddenly, this -- he

16 just shot the man in the head. I shut my eyes. I was hit in the right

17 shoulder, probably because of the stones that had ricochetted. But it was

18 probably fragmentation ammunition that was used. And I just thought to

19 myself: "I have been wounded so much, I may as well die" because I had

20 unbearable pain I felt.

21 Q. After that, did you overhear any other conversations between the

22 soldiers?

23 A. Why, yes. They were checking, I guess, who was still alive. They

24 laughed and commented and said: "They're well fed. Look at this one, he

25 looks like a proper hare, big guy. We'll exchange you dead with

Page 1421

1 Silajdzic."

2 Q. All right. Do you know if the soldiers left at some point?

3 A. Yes. Suddenly, the lorry switched on the engine and left. As

4 others were killing, as others were being killed, I was praying that I be

5 killed, too, because I was in terrible pain. But I dared not call out to

6 them. So I just thought that my mother would never know where I was, as I

7 was thinking that I'd like to die. And I was so thirsty. And when the

8 lorry left, I stayed there for a while. But these stones bothered me, so

9 I tried to turn my head to the other side.

10 Q. Did you know whether or not at that point someone else was alive?

11 A. Well, as I turned my head, I saw somebody moving among the dead.

12 Q. And what did you do when you saw someone moving?

13 A. Well, I asked: "Are you alive?" And he said: "I am. Untie me."

14 Q. And did you untie him?

15 A. Well, I couldn't go immediately. I said: "I can't come." I lay

16 there for one hour, and he was calling out. And then I started rolling

17 over those bodies. I don't know how long it took me to roll to him, but I

18 felt it was a very long time. And when I reached him, after I'd rolled up

19 to him, I started cutting with my teeth this rope that he was tied with,

20 thread by thread. However, I was unable to do it, and then I rolled up to

21 his head. And with his teeth, he got off the -- this thing off my hands

22 because it was quite loose. So when he set me free, then I started

23 helping him. He had two pieces of rope, and four of them, and every one

24 of them was tied separately.

25 And in the meantime, as I was untying him, we heard a lorry move,

Page 1422

1 and we saw lights approaching. It was lighting us up. I said: "The

2 lorry's coming. It's coming. We've got to go." And he said: "No, no,

3 just untie me."

4 Q. And what happened next?

5 A. The lorry was quite near, and I said: "We have to go." And he

6 stood up somehow with his hands still tied and started walking over the

7 dead through the dark. And I stayed. I could not stand up, so I was

8 crawling behind him.

9 Q. And where did you go?

10 A. We were moving through darkness. But when we got down the rocks,

11 we could see that it was a concrete gully or something, a canal, a ditch.

12 I crawled over dead bodies. And somebody's head had been all smashed by

13 bullets so that it was still warm. And when we were down in that canal,

14 in that concrete conduit, the lorry had already come up, and the gunfire

15 started again. But the shots were not as frequent as when we were there.

16 And they started hitting the lorry. I don't know what was going on. I

17 guess I'd say there were perhaps more wounded, and therefore they were

18 killing them, or perhaps some other lorries were coming up. I cannot say.

19 Q. Where did you and the man hide when you left the execution site?

20 A. Well, it was night still, so we stayed in that canal until

21 daybreak. I'm not sure what time it was. He had a T-shirt. He still had

22 it on except that he was barefoot. And he took a singlet and bandaged,

23 and I didn't know who that man was. So I asked him: "Who are you?" And

24 he told me his name and he said where he came from. And I told him who I

25 was, too.

Page 1423

1 Q. All right. And can you tell us what happened the next morning.

2 A. Well, that morning, there was a forest to the right, so we started

3 through the forest trying to climb a hill to see whether we would be able

4 to see where to go because we didn't know where we were. We did not know

5 where we were. And we didn't know where to go. And when we climbed to

6 the top of that hill, we saw that above the plateau where all the killing

7 went on, above that plateau and down the dam, later on I saw it was a dam,

8 on the other side of that dam, there was a guard with a rifle. And we

9 couldn't go anywhere, we had to go down back to the canal and across those

10 dead. We had to go to another hill. And from there, we saw the dead

11 being picked up by a loader. As a matter of fact, we heard some noise,

12 and we could see how they were being picked up. But I don't know where

13 because I was wounded, so I was down on the ground. And the man who

14 survived alongside me, he saw it much better.

15 He was always some 50 metres ahead of me, and I crawled behind him

16 because I could not walk, and my foot hurt me terribly. And four days

17 later, after we wandered around villages for four days, we passed by these

18 Serb troops, right through them, but they never saw us, through their

19 line. And we never got to the line of the BH army. Many times, I just

20 wanted to stop because I could not go on, but the other man who survived

21 with me, he always came back and begged me to move on, not to stop, not to

22 stay behind. But I was very exhausted. He even carried me.

23 Q. And four days later, did you at some point reach

24 Bosnian-controlled territory?

25 A. Yes. Yes. After wandering around, we crossed into the territory,

Page 1424

1 and we knew that Muslims lived there because from the forest, we could

2 overhear a conversation between a man and a woman. And they were

3 mentioning Srebrenica, saying how that crime had happened. And the woman

4 said: "Well, God will take care of that." And we could also see the

5 clothes she was wearing, so that we came out. And had it not been for

6 that man, I would have never tried to get out myself. I suppose I would

7 have just stayed there. I don't think I would have even tried. And only

8 he knows how much I suffered.

9 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. I understand when you reached the

10 Muslim-held territory, you ended up in a hospital. And at a later point,

11 there were some photographs taken of your injuries. Is that correct?

12 A. It is. I was kept in the hospital for a day in Sapna. After

13 that, I was transferred to the hospital in Tuzla. And I was treated

14 there, and the photographs that I have were made two or three months

15 perhaps -- I'm not quite sure, two or three months after I was wounded,

16 after all that had happened.

17 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, what I propose to do at this point is

18 simply show three photographs to the witness, Exhibit 69 through 71. I

19 don't propose to put these photographs on the ELMO simply to avoid

20 revealing the identity of this witness. Subject to Your Honour, I'd like

21 to file them under seal at some point. Thank you.

22 Q. Can you confirm, sir, that these photographs were taken of your

23 torso, your left arm, and your foot? These are Exhibit 69, 70, and 71.

24 A. Right arm, left leg.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you for that correction.

Page 1425

1 A. Yes. These are the wounds that I sustained. These wounds -- this

2 was two or three months later, so they had almost healed. In my wounds,

3 there were -- there was a lot of grit, of dust, of fragments of bullets

4 and so on. I still have them in my body.

5 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

6 MS. ISSA: I'm just going to ask the usher to take those

7 photographs and return them to me. Thank you.

8 I have no further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Any cross-examination, Mr. Karnavas?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. No cross-examination.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Ms. Sinatra?

14 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no

15 cross-examination for this witness.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 At this stage, are there any documents to tender? Ms. Issa.

18 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. The only documents that

19 I would be proposing to tender at this point are those three photographs

20 which I'm seeking to tender them under seal, as I indicated earlier. The

21 other documents have already been tendered through other witnesses that I

22 referred to earlier. There is also the Exhibit 72 which reveals the

23 witness's name, which he identified himself with at the outset of the

24 examination. And I would also be seeking to tender that under seal as

25 well. Thank you.

Page 1426

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Mr. Karnavas.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Sinatra?

4 MS. SINATRA: No objections, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. These four documents are

6 admitted into the evidence.

7 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to give your

8 evidence. We would like to express great sympathies to your sufferings at

9 that time. All we wish is you have good luck in the future and a pleasant

10 journey back home. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you

11 out of the room.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, what's the next witness, Ms. Issa?

14 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness I believe will be

15 put through a video pursuant to the 92 bis, and I think we will need a few

16 moments to set that up. So subject to Your Honour, I'm going to be asking

17 to take the break a little bit earlier this morning to allow us to set up

18 the equipment.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I guess there's no objections from Defence team.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

21 MS. SINATRA: No, Your Honour, no objections.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think we will break now, and

23 resume at 10.30.

24 --- Break taken at 9.52 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.31 a.m.

Page 1427

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Davis.

2 MS. DAVIS: Good afternoon. I just wanted to make a few

3 procedural comments about the video that we're going to be playing for the

4 Trial Chamber. As you're probably aware, the full transcript has been

5 disclosed to the parties and submitted to the Court pursuant to Rule 92

6 bis. This is the testimony of Witness W76 who testified as Witness DD in

7 the Krstic case. The witness testified for approximately one and a half

8 hours in Krstic. In the interests of expedience, we've tried to cut out

9 some of the less relevant or repetitive testimony as well as some portions

10 of the proceedings where the witness wasn't speaking and there were no

11 questions being asked.

12 I think we have cut it to about 40 minutes, a little less than 40

13 minutes. They will be shown in a series of clips, and we're going to be

14 using the Sanction programme. At one point in the middle of the witness's

15 testimony, the Trial Chamber went into closed session where the witness

16 briefly testified about some of her relatives and identified them by name.

17 To protect her identity, we would request that that also be played in

18 closed session here, but what we have done is move that to the end and I

19 think it won't disrupt the video to do it that way. So if we could go

20 into private session at the close of the testimony just for the two-minute

21 portion at the end.

22 One other issue is that the witness had protective measures in

23 Krstic, so her image is scrambled on the videotape. But we have marked as

24 P73 an unscrambled photograph of the witness so that the parties and the

25 Trial Chamber can see what she looks like as she testifies, and that will

Page 1428

1 be -- we'll move to admit that under seal.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, one question I want to ask you. At the close of

3 the testimony, you are going to ask for the private session or closed

4 session?

5 MS. DAVIS: Closed session, please.

6 JUDGE LIU: Closed session. What's the purpose for that? Well,

7 because we don't have the witness here, and we have the face distortion in

8 the computers.

9 MS. DAVIS: She identifies a number of relatives of hers by name

10 in the closed session portion, and we believe that might be identifying

11 information. So we would prefer to do it in closed session.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, okay. Thank you.

13 Shall we begin.

14 [Videotape played]

15 [Please refer to 30 June 2003 92 bis Ruling

16 for video transcript]

17 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, we're still not getting any video.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think everybody has got one in the "computer

19 evidence" channel.

20 MS. SINATRA: It just came. Thank you.

21 MS. DAVIS: Would you like us to start it again?

22 MS. SINATRA: No, that's okay.

23 [Videotape played]

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

25 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I'm really sorry to interrupt the

Page 1429

1 videotape, but I would like to ask the Court to consider that this kind of

2 victim impact testimony which is being played during the guilty or

3 innocence phase of the trial is best played once there is an adjudication

4 of guilty or an acquittal, depending -- it's for the sentencing phase. If

5 there's no evidence except for the value of the damage to society at this

6 point, as to be determined individually with each of the accused, I

7 believe this would be best saved for a sentencing phase instead of as

8 evidence of relevancy of the paragraphs in the indictment.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, any response? Ms. Davis.

10 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, this witness not only gives victim impact

11 evidence as part of her testimony, but she also testifies as somebody who

12 lived through the events surrounding the takeover of Srebrenica. And her

13 testimony is relevant for those purposes as well.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, I think I have to remind you of a

15 decision made by this Trial Chamber on the 13th of June, 2003. In this

16 decision, this Trial Chamber decided that we hear the testimony of this

17 witness through videoclips. And when the Prosecution asked for the

18 permission, we saw no response from both Defence teams on this aspect. As

19 I understand, this witness is one of the witnesses to testify for the

20 crime base. We believe that her testimony is relevant to the event.

21 MS. SINATRA: All right. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you for

22 that clarification for me. It's going to the crime base of the indictment

23 instead of just a victim impact statement, so thank you for clarifying

24 that.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Shall we proceed.

Page 1430

1 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, just one more comment, if I may. This

2 witness's testimony certainly provides victim impact evidence as well as

3 crime base evidence, and we believe that's proper under Rule 92 bis. It

4 specifically states that victim impact evidence can be introduced at trial

5 under that Rule, and we think it's appropriate for this witness's

6 testimony to be considered both as crime base and as victim impact

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE LIU: We'll proceed.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, if we could go into closed session

11 briefly, I think it's just a two-minute...

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, we'll go to the closed session.

13 [Closed session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender

20 into the evidence? Yes, Ms. Davis.

21 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, we would tender Exhibits P73, that would

22 be tendered under seal. That's the photograph of the witness. P74, which

23 is the compilation of 11 videoclips that we just viewed. And P74A, which

24 is the highlighted transcript of the witness's testimony.

25 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections? Mr. Karnavas.

Page 1431

1 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Sinatra?

3 MS. SINATRA: No objections, Mr. President.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Davis, would you please tell us some

6 specific reasons for tendering those documents into the evidence.

7 MS. DAVIS: Really just to clarify the record and to make a clear

8 record of what the members of the Trial Chamber and the parties viewed

9 here in the courtroom. As I mentioned before, the full transcript has

10 been submitted under 92 bis, and if the Trial Chamber would prefer, we can

11 rest with that.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the photos, I think the Registrar has the

13 responsibility to collect all the photos of the witnesses into a file and

14 submit it, those files, to us. But they are not admitted as evidence

15 because the evidence is materials on which we make our findings. So I

16 don't think the document P73 could be admitted into the evidence. But

17 Registrar will keep that piece of the material in her file and submit it

18 to the Trial Chamber.

19 As for the document P74 and 74A, I have to remind you the decision

20 we made on the 30th of June, 2003, as I did to Ms. Sinatra. I think the

21 transcript of the testimony of this witness has already been admitted into

22 evidence. There is no need to make any repetitive efforts in this aspect.

23 So I'm sorry to say that those three documents are not admitted into the

24 evidence. It is so decided.

25 Ms. Sinatra, I think you have a procedural matter to raise. And

Page 1432

1 now is the time for you to do so since we still have some time.

2 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. There has been some cooperation

3 from the Prosecution, who did offer to give us a translation of these

4 documents they gave us today by noon. And they did offer to postpone the

5 testimony of the next witness in lieu of the fact that they just did

6 disclose extra materials. I think that we will cooperate with the

7 Prosecution on this, and Mr. Stojanovic has said that he can be prepared

8 to go forward with the witness tomorrow. But I just ask the Court to

9 issue some kind of ruling here that we cannot have evidence supplied by

10 the Prosecution, because they debrief the witness the night before, then

11 they decide to have new evidence that they're going to present. They have

12 to prepare their witness beforehand. And we ask for at least 48 hours

13 before the witness is going to testify to be given new disclosure that

14 they're going to give. And 48 hours is not that much considering most of

15 the documents they gave us today were in B/C/S, and we can't read them --

16 I can't read them yet.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, any response from the Prosecution? Yes,

18 Mr. Waespi.

19 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. Just briefly, this is not new

20 evidence which we discovered recently. It's unrelated to the testimony of

21 this witness. It concerns, I believe, about ten pages of documents

22 collected by Bosnian Serb authorities about the events which happened in

23 1992. And out of an abundance of caution, we thought the Defence may want

24 to see it and perhaps cross-examine the witness on that. But it's

25 certainly not evidence which the Prosecution is going to lead.

Page 1433

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, Ms. Sinatra, first of all,

2 I think this Bench would like to thank you for your cooperation, that you

3 agree to go on with the cross-examination of the next witness. And we

4 also agree with your proposal that whenever there's material, the other

5 party should disclose it before 48 hours before the testimony of that

6 witness. All we have to do is try to avoid any preemptive attack on the

7 other side so that we could have smooth sailing. In this particular case,

8 as the Prosecution said that those materials are not related to the

9 testimony of that witness we are going to hear tomorrow, it's something

10 that happened in 1992. It's just for the facility for your

11 cross-examination. They are not directly incriminalise your client; they

12 are just some previous acts and conducts related to that witness. It

13 might go to the credibility of that witness but is not to the very subject

14 of this case.

15 But as a rule, I remind both parties that if there's any materials

16 to disclose, it would be better to do it before the 48 hours. And I hope

17 Ms. Sinatra will regard what the Prosecution did in good faith.

18 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I appreciate the offer by the

19 Prosecutor to postpone the testimony, and I appreciate the Court's new

20 ruling that it should be disclosed 48 hours ahead of time. Although it

21 might not go to the indictment against my client, it needs to be analysed

22 as far as the credibility of the witness goes and the impact it might have

23 on the underlying crime base. So thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 And at this point, I would like to remind both parties that

Page 1434

1 tomorrow afternoon, if we still have time, we'll hold a hearing on the 94

2 bis. That is about expert statements. And if we do not have time

3 tomorrow, we have to arrange it on Thursday morning.

4 Well, I think that's all. The hearing is adjourned.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

6 at 11.30 a.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

7 the 23rd day of July, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.