Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1726

1 Tuesday, 23 September 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. This

9 morning, there are two matters I would like to bring to the attention of

10 the parties. The first one is Judge Argibay won't be able to join us. In

11 accordance with the Rule 15 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the

12 remaining Judges decided to continue the proceedings.

13 The second matter is the scheduling arrangement. According to our

14 plan, we are going to have a break from 13th to 17th of October, and on

15 the 20th, we will have another group of witnesses from the Prosecution. So

16 we have to finish the testimony of these two witnesses before the 10th of

17 October. Yesterday, Mr. McCloskey has promised me that he will do his

18 best to finish his direct examination this morning. Could I ask Mr.

19 Karnavas, how long are you going to take for your cross?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. My estimation is five to

21 six days. It could be a little bit longer, it could be shorter. It all

22 depends on how disputive the witness is. If he is willing to give the

23 answers forthrightly, it could even be shorter. But less than four days I

24 would say would be very difficult because we have a lot of information to

25 go through, Your Honour.

Page 1727

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, could you tell me exactly how many hours do you

2 need because, you know, the Prosecution used about ten hours 30 minutes if

3 they finished the direct this morning.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. Well, I can't tell you the exact

5 amount of hours, but I could answer the question. Mr. Nikolic has given

6 several different statements. There are also some additional information

7 that was provided. There are also things that he has mentioned that now

8 that would require me to go into depth into the rules and the regulations.

9 Because of that, and there are a lot of inconsistencies, at least

10 throughout the various versions that he has given, there are also some

11 information that we have regarding his character which we believe directly

12 relate to his propensity for dishonesty which we believe would be relevant

13 to this Court. So in light of that, I would say I would need probably

14 twice the amount of time that the Prosecution has put on. I intend to be

15 as efficient as I possibly can be, you know, and I certainly do not intend

16 to prolong it any longer than I have to but there is some information that

17 we must go through. For example, when he indicates that he has a

18 particular function, I need to go into the rules to demonstrate what his

19 exact functions are. Also, the Prosecution opened some doors which

20 require me to delve into in order for the Court to have a complete context

21 of the situation. So in light of that, Your Honour, I don't think you can

22 say that the Prosecution took ten hours then I should have ten hours

23 because if they choose not to put in information that would tend to show

24 his dishonesty, then it prevents me from showing that. So -- But you will

25 see, Your Honour, we are eminently prepared, I will be as streamlined as I

Page 1728

1 possibly can be and as laconic as I can be.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, as you said, as a rule of this Tribunal,

3 we'll give more or less the equal amount of time in the cross as to the

4 direct. I believe that this witness is very important, very material to

5 your case, and you need some time to cross-examine this witness. But you

6 have to remember that the Bench has the power to shorten the time used by

7 the parties for the direct or cross-examination.

8 Since this witness is very material to your case, maybe we'll not

9 sit tomorrow, and you'll have the whole day to prepare or reorganise your

10 cross-examination. I hope you could finish your cross in 12 to 15 hours.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Is that with or without the breaks, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE LIU: Of course, without break.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: So in this case, on Thursday, 25th, we will sit in the

15 morning from 9.00 to 1.45, and 3.00 to 4.30. And as well as on Friday, we

16 also go from 9.00 to 1.45, and in the afternoon, 3.00 to 4.30. Thank you.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, how long do you think you are going to

19 use for the cross-examination of this witness?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, judging by the

21 relationship between the testimony of Mr. Nikolic and the Defence of

22 Dragan Jokic, we have focussed on three groups of issues that we wish to

23 clarify on the cross-examination of the witness. And we judge that that

24 will take about 1 hour, 45 minutes. In other words, one session.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

Page 1729

1 Anyway, we'll have the next witness on next Wednesday. That is

2 Mr. Obrenovic. And how long do you think, Mr. McCloskey, your direct

3 examination will take?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I may be able to finish in one day, but certainly

5 no longer than two.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: And Mr. President, could I ask just a

8 clarification. I know in the past you have mentioned you did not want

9 witnesses to be surprised by new documents or new materials.

10 Mr. Karnavas's comment regarding some sort of character evidence sounds

11 like he has something new in mind outside the documents that we've all

12 been living with for months, if not years now. So I was wondering if you

13 could clarify for us what kind of discovery in the context of this witness

14 you would expect the Defence to be able to provide, either the witness or

15 the Prosecution, on new areas that he may be planning to go into.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, you have to know that in the

17 discovery of the evidence are different between the direct examination and

18 cross-examination. During the cross-examination, the Defence could use

19 whatever documents possible at their hands which does not constitute the

20 surprising attack at all. But in order to facilitate the proceedings and

21 to -- especially for the Trial Chamber to know which documents the Defence

22 is going to use, we hope, we hope, that the Defence could provide us with

23 those documents which they are going to use during the cross-examination

24 to the Bench and to the other party before the cross-examination or before

25 using those documents. Otherwise, we will spend a lot of time finding

Page 1730

1 those documents which somehow is a surprising attack. Am I right? Mr.

2 Karnavas.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I could not agree with you more, Your Honour.

4 I just didn't want a pre-emptive strike coming from the Prosecution and

5 that's why I want to let them complete their direct examination. We will

6 present the documents, they will have it, and of course if they have any

7 objections, they can raise it on the order and we can deal with it. It

8 might sound like a surprise, but in essence, I don't believe it's my

9 obligation to provide them with my cross-examination, telegraph what I'm

10 going to do so they begin to do their rebuttal before I do my cross. So

11 that's the whole purpose.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So it seems that the direct examination of

13 Mr. Obrenovic will take one day or at the most two days. I think the

14 Defence of Mr. Jokic is allowed to have an equal period of time for the

15 cross-examination. So we decided on the 3rd of October, Friday, we are

16 not going to sit.

17 Having said that, could we have the witness, please.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have one minor matter to bring up

19 and it deals with yesterday's translation. It became aware to us that

20 when a question was posed and an answer given, that perhaps there might

21 have been an error, and I underscore might have been an error in the

22 translation of the answer provided by Mr. Nikolic. If you wish for me to

23 deal with it through the legal officer, I could do that, or should I go on

24 the record? I don't know the exact procedure you wish for me to proceed

25 on this matter to make the correction, or at least to have them look into

Page 1731

1 it.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think everything should go

3 publicly. And you may raise it.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: You may be right or you may be wrong.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely. And I'm not saying that they're wrong.

7 I'm just saying that it was our impression that perhaps there was one

8 minor error. It's on page 40 of the transcript. The question begins with

9 line 21, and the time period is 12.44.37. The question was: "Did he do

10 anything to encourage your continued involvement in these events that

11 evening? Did he say or do anything that evening to encourage your

12 continued involvement in this operation to move out the women and children

13 and detain and kill the men?" That was the question posed by Mr.

14 McCloskey. The answer was, and this is on line 25, it begins on line 25,

15 and the time period is 12.45, 05: "No he didn't say anything along these

16 lings that would give me the impression that he was encouraging me to do

17 anything other than that." It is our belief that what he actually -- what

18 the gentleman actually said was "anything like this" or "anything like

19 that." In other words, they have interpreted to say that he encouraged me

20 to do anything other than that, other than that. And we believe that the

21 gentleman indicated that it was "anything like this," that he would

22 encourage him to do anything like this. So that's on line 1, page 41,

23 12.45.09 is the time period. If they could look into, we would most

24 appreciate it.

25 JUDGE LIU: I thank you very much, Mr. Karnavas, to bring this

Page 1732

1 matter to our attention. It is an important issue, but it's a matter of

2 the translation.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely. Absolutely.

4 JUDGE LIU: We will ask the interpreters to check the transcript

5 and the tape recorder about the translation of this phrase.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: We appreciate that, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

8 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honours, good morning. Just two little

9 issue that is I need to address, one is if we are continuing with new

10 witnesses on October 20th, can the Court please, would the Court please

11 set a deadline for the Prosecution to provide us with some kind of witness

12 list. We have no clue who the next witness is after Mr. Obrenovic, and we

13 really can't be prepared by October 20th unless we have a witness list in

14 the next couple of days.

15 Second of all, I have notified the Prosecution that during the

16 cross-examination of Mr. Obrenovic, we will be using an exhibit which is a

17 model that's being built to the specifications of the Zvornik Brigade

18 headquarters. To eliminate any conflict or problems or objections when

19 Mr. Obrenovic takes the stand, we would like to offer the Prosecution an

20 opportunity to inspect the model, look at it, discuss it. We'll negotiate

21 any problems they have with it. It will be available on Monday.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. As for your first request, I think it's

23 very legitimate. I think the responsibility lies on the shoulder of the

24 Prosecution to inform the other parties the name and order of the next

25 group of witnesses. I hope the Prosecution could do it as soon as

Page 1733

1 possible.

2 As for the second matter, I believe it's a good idea. Maybe the

3 parties could discuss it after the sitting on this matter, and to see if

4 there is any way out for this. If not, you are free to come back to the

5 Bench. Thank you very much, Ms. Sinatra. We have lost about 20 minutes,

6 but we'll try to make it up. But I hope we could finish the sittings this

7 morning before 2.00.

8 Could we have the witness, please.

9 [The witness entered court]


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please. Are you ready --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If possible, could we

21 lower the ELMO a little bit. It's right between the witness and myself.

22 Examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

24 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

25 Q. We left off yesterday when you had arrived back at the Bratunac

Page 1734

1 Brigade in the early evening hours. You said it was still light on the

2 13th of July. At some point after that time, did you hear about an

3 incident that occurred at the Kravica warehouse?

4 A. Yes. I did hear that an incident had occurred at Kravica. But

5 that wasn't that evening, but the following day.

6 Q. And about what time did you hear about the incident at Kravica

7 warehouse the following day, on 14 July?

8 A. I heard about it the following day in the morning. After having

9 slept a part of the night, I was in town, and then I also heard about it

10 when I came to the brigade headquarters.

11 Q. And who did you hear about it from first in town?

12 A. All I can tell you is that already on the 14th, this was common

13 knowledge. That is, almost the entire town, all the soldiers, had heard

14 about it. People I saw and came across that day had heard that this

15 incident had occurred in town. One of the people I heard about it from

16 was the chief of the public security station, Miodrag Josipovic.

17 Q. When you went to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters on the 14th, do

18 you recall who you heard about it there from?

19 A. In the command of the Bratunac Brigade, in the operations room,

20 the officers who were there, mostly members of the brigade command, were

21 talking about it. Or rather, I discussed the incident with them, the

22 incident I had heard about.

23 Q. Was your commander Mr. Blagojevic among those officers you

24 discussed this with at that time?

25 A. I'm really not able to confirm that now because this wasn't any

Page 1735

1 meeting or debate or reporting. But since everyone knew about it, the

2 whole town, I knew about it. Members of the brigade command knew about

3 it. So all I can say is that Colonel Blagojevic must have known about it,

4 too.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may object.


7 MR. KARNAVAS: The question was if Mr. Blagojevic was among those

8 officers. The gentleman then went on to speculate, to give what he

9 believes Mr. Blagojevic would have known because he heard it, the

10 intelligence officer heard it from others in the community. So I would

11 appreciate if the gentleman would just answer the question. If

12 Mr. McCloskey wishes to then pose another question, that's fine. But I

13 think he's deliberately trying to bring out -- to make insinuations and

14 speculations at this stage of the game, and he should know because he's

15 here three days, and he should know that he's required to answer the

16 question and only the question.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that from the answer of

18 this witness, everything is quite clear because he said that he's really

19 not able to confirm that because this wasn't any meeting or debate or

20 reporting. But he thinks everybody knew about it. The whole town, I knew

21 about it. Members of the brigade command knew about it. So all I can say

22 is that Colonel Blagojevic must have known about it, too. It's quite

23 clear. It's not speculation.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, had he been asked the question do you

25 know if Mr. Blagojevic was aware of it, I would not object to that. I do

Page 1736

1 object to him going beyond the question and it forces me to make an

2 objection. The question was very clear, was Blagojevic at that meeting?

3 Answer is no. Mr. McCloskey can then ask another question.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think there's a big problem in that.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. What on the 14th of July had you learned occurred at the warehouse

9 in Kravica, just if you can briefly tell us?

10 A. I learned that on the previous day, that is, the 13th of July,

11 1995, an incident had occurred in a building known as OK Kravica in which

12 among the Muslim prisoners, an automatic rifle was seized from a member of

13 the police who was guarding them and who had captured them and was holding

14 them there. And then the person who had grabbed the rifle shot at the

15 policeman, and a police officer was killed. One or two others were

16 wounded. And that after that, a group of policemen who were there used

17 automatic weapons and other weapons they had on them to execute the

18 prisoners in that facility.

19 I also learned that in addition to the sidearms used to shoot at

20 the captured Muslims in that facility, they brought boxes of hand

21 grenades. They shut the doors. And then they killed the people inside

22 using those grenades. I can also say that I heard that a witness of all

23 those events and killings was Jovan Nikolic, who was the director of that

24 cooperative, and that he, too, personally, when he objected to what they

25 were doing, then he, too, was attacked and his life was imperiled. So

Page 1737

1 that is what I heard briefly as to what had happened the previous day.

2 Q. Did you learn what unit, from what police forces was involved in

3 this?

4 A. On the 14th, I learned that elements of the special brigade of the

5 MUP took part. Further, I learned that most of those who had taken part

6 in the killings were members of the 2nd detachment from Sekovici.

7 However, most of those were members of the MUP special police forces who

8 were active in the area, in the Sandici village area.

9 Q. Did you learn approximately how many Muslims were murdered in this

10 way at the Kravica warehouse?

11 A. The earliest information I had was several hundreds of Muslims. I

12 don't know precisely, and I never really learned, the exact number of

13 people who were killed. But the assessment was several hundreds of them.

14 Q. Do you know where they were buried?

15 A. Yes. A day or two later, I also heard that bodies from that

16 killing site were buried by members of the MUP and that those bodies were

17 buried in the Glogovi village area.

18 Q. Did you ever discuss the murders at the Kravica warehouse with

19 your commander, Blagojevic?

20 A. As for that particular incident and the overall situation in the

21 area, more specifically, the killing -- the killings at Kravica and those

22 occurring along the road, we didn't speak officially at a meeting or

23 anything. But we did discuss countless times the situation, and we

24 discussed what was happening along the road as well as what had happened

25 at Kravica. This was the subject of conversations both back in town and

Page 1738

1 at the headquarters that I belonged to.

2 Q. Do you recall when you first spoke to your commander, Blagojevic,

3 about the murders at Kravica warehouse?

4 A. At the earliest, a day or two or three days after the killings at

5 Kravica.

6 Q. And did you receive any instructions or information from him

7 regarding the information you gave him about the killings at Kravica?

8 A. No. I received no instructions, no assignments, not then, not at

9 any time later for as long as I was a member of the brigade.

10 Q. Did you ever determine whether any Bratunac Brigade members were

11 involved in the murders at Kravica?

12 A. After everything had happened, I looked into the problem of

13 overall operations and everything that had happened in the Bratunac area.

14 Throughout the period following these events, I obtained information that

15 four persons, four individuals from Kravica, two of them members of the

16 Bratunac Brigade, one of them a member of the MUP, I wasn't sure about the

17 fourth -- the status of the fourth person there. I had information that

18 those people had taken part in the killings at Kravica.

19 Q. Did you have any information that they were part of an organised

20 assignment at Kravica, or just they happened to go there as individuals?

21 A. My information was that they had not been there as an organised

22 group forming part of any unit. They were citizens of the Kravica local

23 commune. And as such, they happened to be in the area and take part in

24 the killings.

25 Q. During your review of the Kravica murders, did you identify any

Page 1739

1 information that any member or members of the Bratunac Brigade Red Berets

2 were part of the Kravica murders?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't believe that the gentleman indicated he

5 made a review. So if there's a foundation that needs to be made, I think

6 Mr. McCloskey should lay it. Because he's learning -- he's talking about

7 information that he learned. Now the question was, During your review -

8 indicating there was a particular review as opposed to information coming

9 in to an intelligence officer.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, I think Mr. McCloskey, you need to go step

11 by step so we could fully understand the context.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the witness did say that after

13 these events, he looked into various events, including the Kravica

14 warehouse. And that's all I meant by my word "review." And so I can try

15 to clarify that.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we know the source of that information he

17 obtained.


19 Q. Can you tell us the source of the information relating to specific

20 members of the Bratunac Brigade being there at the Kravica warehouse.

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, Your Honours, as an intelligence officer, it was

22 my duty and within my purview to gather intelligence from such sources as

23 I had previously defined as my colleagues, or rather collaborators. At

24 Kravica, and throughout the Bratunac Brigade, I had people I worked with

25 and they would cooperate with the security organ. I really can't bring

Page 1740

1 into the public eye the names of the people I had then worked with. This

2 was a duty. And we did have information on those events, and in general,

3 the brigade was obtaining information on any events through the people

4 providing information for us who were in direct contact with us

5 throughout.

6 Q. All right. As you've described when you looked into these -- the

7 events at Kravica, at that time, did you receive any information that

8 members or a member of the Bratunac Brigade Red Beret unit was present or

9 involved at the Kravica massacre?

10 A. Not at that time. I had no information at that time concerning

11 members of the Red Beret unit. I was able to obtain information. Later,

12 I read a number of documents. But I can't say that at that time I had

13 information that the Red Berets had taken part in that.

14 Q. Are you referring to documents that were provided you by the

15 Prosecution in the discovery of this case?

16 A. Yes, yes. Those are the documents I have in mind. And those

17 documents indicated that there was a perpetrator at Kravica that was from

18 the Red Beret unit of the Bratunac Brigade.

19 Q. And can you indicate what document or documents you're talking

20 about?

21 A. I have in mind a specific document talking about a member of the

22 Red Berets having been wounded at Kravica during the killings, and that he

23 was later transferred to the health centre in Bratunac or in Zvornik. I

24 can't be sure right now. I no longer remember the document that clearly,

25 but I think that's the document we both have in mind.

Page 1741

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is a document mentioned by

2 Mr. Butler in his report. And since it was not something known to the

3 witness at the time, I would just go on in my questioning.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'd ask --


6 MR. KARNAVAS: -- that that entire line of answers be disregarded

7 at this point unless -- because he's just referring to a document that he

8 read. He has no independent knowledge. So I'd ask that there be a

9 finding of fact at this point in time that unless they can produce some

10 verifiable information that would justify this line of questioning that

11 the entire answer be disregarded and not be part of the finding of fact by

12 this Trial Chamber.

13 JUDGE LIU: I think the transcript is quite clear. And when we

14 deliberate on the evidence at a later stage, we'll take your objections

15 into consideration.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.


19 Q. In your discussions with Mr. Blagojevic about the Kravica

20 warehouse massacres, did you ever mention that you had learned that

21 Bratunac Brigade soldiers were involved?

22 A. Yes, I did refer to that.

23 Q. And do you recall when in this time frame that you informed your

24 commander that you believed Bratunac Brigade soldiers were involved?

25 A. Well, I can't tell you the date specifically. But it was just

Page 1742

1 after the killings had occurred. And the earliest date at which this

2 would have been possible upon Mr. Blagojevic's return from Zepa, because

3 at that time I had already obtained information as to what had happened

4 concerning the killings at Kravica, the burials and so on and so forth.

5 Q. Was the Kravica warehouse within the Bratunac Brigade zone of

6 responsibility?

7 A. Whether it was in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac

8 Brigade, I'm not sure. It certainly was Bratunac Municipality. But in

9 view of the battalion's position, I think it was behind the zone of

10 responsibility of the 4th. I'm not really sure about the zones. I know

11 what the battalions were covering, but whether that area was within the

12 zone of responsibility, yes, it was just next to the zone of

13 responsibility of the 1st and 4th Battalions. I'm simply not sure what is

14 included in the zone of responsibility of the battalion.

15 Q. All right. Let's go back to the evening of 13 July where you have

16 told us that you went back to the brigade headquarters. What did you do

17 that evening?

18 A. Nothing. I stayed for a while back at the Bratunac Brigade

19 headquarters. I went to my office. After that, I went to the mess to

20 have dinner. Soon after that, I was contacted from the communications

21 centre to go and speak to Colonel Beara at the -- in the centre of

22 Bratunac town.

23 Q. And did you do that?

24 A. Yes. Sometime between 8.00 and half past 8.00 in the evening, I

25 got in touch with Colonel Beara in the centre of town where the

Page 1743

1 communications officers told me to report.

2 Q. Had you had any contact with Colonel Beara before meeting him that

3 night in the centre of town, on this day or the day before?

4 A. No, I'd never had any contacts with him previously. But I did see

5 him once, I believe, on the 13th in Bratunac. But up to that point, I had

6 not been in personal contact with Colonel Beara, no.

7 Q. Before going to meet with Colonel Beara, did you have any idea

8 what -- why he wanted to see you?

9 A. No, no idea why he wanted to see me before I talked to him.

10 Q. Did you communicate with anyone in your command that you were

11 going to go see Colonel Beara?

12 A. No. I didn't communicate with anyone. I had no idea why he

13 wanted to see me, so there was no reason for me to inform anyone about

14 that. I didn't tell anyone anything.

15 Q. And where in the centre of town did you meet with Colonel Beara?

16 A. In Bratunac, well, the main street, it's a small town and there's

17 only one centre of town. There's a roundabout. Across the way from the

18 roundabout, the offices occupied by political parties in town, the SDS and

19 the other political parties. So that's the only centre of town there is.

20 Q. Did you see him on the street, in an office, where?

21 A. In the street quite literally in the centre, in the street, the

22 town, the spot I just described.

23 Q. Did you take anybody with you or were you by yourself?

24 A. I was alone.

25 Q. Was anybody with Colonel Beara?

Page 1744

1 A. No. When we met, no, there was no one else with him.

2 Q. Was it light out still or had it turned dark?

3 A. No, not dark yet. To the best of my recollection, it was between

4 8.00 and half past 8.00 in the evening. So it wasn't dark yet.

5 Q. And what did Colonel Beara say to you?

6 A. Colonel Beara ordered me to go to the command of the Zvornik

7 Brigade and see Drago Nikolic personally that same evening. He also

8 ordered me to convey his orders to Drago Nikolic that the Muslim prisoners

9 in Bratunac would be transferred to Zvornik the same evening and that he

10 should secure accommodation for those prisoners. Further, he told me to

11 tell him to get his people ready because a lot of Muslim prisoners would

12 be coming along. He also told me to convey these orders to Dragan

13 Nikolic; namely, that the people who were to be transferred would be

14 temporarily detained in buildings assigned by Dragan and that those people

15 would be killed in the territory of Zvornik Municipality.

16 Q. And who is -- who was your understanding at that time was Drago

17 Nikolic?

18 A. I knew who Drago Nikolic was even from before, before Colonel

19 Beara told me to go and find him. Drago Nikolic was the chief of security

20 of the Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. And did Colonel Beara tell you the approximate numbers of Muslims

22 that would be shipped up to Zvornik?

23 A. He didn't talk about specific numbers then, but he told me that

24 all the Muslims who were in Bratunac would be transferred to Zvornik.

25 Q. Prior to hearing this from Colonel Beara, had you heard about the

Page 1745

1 movement of the Muslims from Bratunac to Zvornik from anyone else?

2 A. No, not that evening. I didn't hear anything from anyone else.

3 That was the first I heard about them being transferred to Zvornik.

4 Q. So what did you do when he gave you this order?

5 A. After that, I switched on the engine of my car and drove town the

6 Bratunac/Konjevic Polje/Drinjaca/Zvornik Road. I arrived at the Zvornik

7 headquarters, that's at the reception. At the reception, I asked to speak

8 to Drago Nikolic. I said that I was the chief of intelligence and

9 security of the Bratunac Brigade. The janitor or guard who was there

10 brought me to an office inside the headquarters. It was on one of the

11 upper floors. I arrived there. I introduced myself, and I said that I

12 needed to speak to Drago Nikolic personally. They asked whether anyone

13 else could receive me. I replied that I had to convey this information to

14 Drago Nikolic in person whereupon they called over another superior

15 officer. I don't know exactly who he was. I did not know officers from

16 that particular department. I suppose it was a security and intelligence

17 department officer who assigned two policemen for my escort. They told me

18 that Drago Nikolic was not at the headquarters at that time and that he

19 was at the forward command post. The police officers, they said, would

20 escort me to the forward command post where Drago Nikolic was.

21 We got back into my car. We went to the forward command post, and

22 finally found Drago Nikolic there. When I reached him at the forward

23 command post, I conveyed Beara's orders to him. I told him that I had

24 been sent by Colonel Beara to convey his order concerning the prisoners,

25 that they should be in Zvornik by that evening, that they would be

Page 1746

1 transferred there, that it was up to him to secure the accommodation and

2 people to guard those prisoners. When we finished talking, I also told

3 him that I had information that the people being transferred to Zvornik

4 would be killed in Zvornik following their detention. Those, I said, were

5 Colonel Beara's orders. I spent about ten minutes talking to Drago

6 Nikolic. Drago Nikolic then told me that he couldn't be on his way right

7 off but that he would consult with his superiors, that he would ask for

8 replacement at the forward command post from the commander of the Zvornik

9 Brigade. The conversation lasted for about ten minutes. I drove back to

10 the Zvornik Brigade. I left the police officer behind at the gate, at the

11 reception. And after that, I drove back to Bratunac.

12 Q. About what time did you first arrive at the Zvornik Brigade on

13 your way up to see Drago Nikolic?

14 A. Well, roughly speaking, I arrived at half past 9.00 in the

15 evening, or rather, quarter to 10.00 or thereabouts.

16 Q. Were you escorted by one police officer or two from the Zvornik

17 Brigade headquarters to the Zvornik Brigade forward command post?

18 A. One policeman.

19 Q. And was this a civilian policeman or a military policeman?

20 A. Military policeman wearing a military uniform.

21 Q. From what unit?

22 A. From the Zvornik Brigade.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may just interrupt.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Earlier in the transcript, he indicated that he was

Page 1747

1 provided with two for the escort. Then for some reason, perhaps

2 Mr. McCloskey didn't hear the answer or forgot about it, he was asked

3 another question. But the way the question was phrased, was it one or was

4 it two, that's leading in nature. Perhaps Mr. McCloskey didn't like the

5 previous one. Perhaps he wishes to have the gentleman correct his answer.

6 And I would appreciate it if he would not ask leading questions so we

7 could have a nice clean transcript from which I can cross-examine the

8 gentleman.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, is that an important factor here, one policeman

10 or two policemen?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't know.

12 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so. Maybe Mr. McCloskey could clarify

13 it for us.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, in my view, there was some

15 confusion whether or not he meant one or two, and at what point. I know

16 what he has said in his statement of facts and other things, so I thought

17 I would ask the question the way I asked it to clarify it. And that's

18 just a normal part of direct examination, to try to clarify the issues so

19 the Court when they're reviewing it and his other statements they can

20 evaluate it. That's purely what I was doing. I've done that before, and

21 I will attempt to continue to keep things as clear as possible.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: No doubt he's trying to clarify the record,

24 Your Honour, but there's a way of doing it. You said that, you know, you

25 were provided with two policeman to escort you. How many police officers

Page 1748

1 did in fact escort you, nice and plain. Not, was it one, was it two?

2 This is a multiple choice, and I think it's suggestive. And it may not

3 seem important here, but later on I don't want to give the impression that

4 this is tolerated behaviour that you can ask these sort of leading

5 questions, and I'm trying to be as professional as possible in trying to

6 have a nice, clear, direct examination from Mr. McCloskey. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Karnavas, but I don't

8 think this matter is extremely important. But your intervention may be a

9 warning to the Prosecutor for the future questions.

10 You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, just for the record, I'm told that

12 the B/C/S language, there was never a mention of two police officers. So

13 this is something that we got in English, which happens. And that's why

14 sometimes I have to clear things up.

15 Q. On your way back to Bratunac that evening, what route did you

16 take?

17 A. On the way back to Bratunac, I took the same route, Bratunac,

18 Drinjaca, Konjevic Polje, Bratunac.

19 Q. Did you on that route see any other vehicles coming in the other

20 direction?

21 A. Yes, I saw several buses coming from Konjevic Polje in the

22 direction of Zvornik. I saw those buses in the region of the village of

23 Kuslata.

24 Q. Could you see who was in those buses?

25 A. Yes, I could see. And what I saw was that these were captured

Page 1749

1 Muslims who were being transported along that route, going from Konjevic

2 Polje.

3 Q. About what time did you get back to Bratunac that night?

4 A. That night, I returned to Bratunac around midnight, maybe a little

5 earlier. But around that time.

6 Q. What did you do when you got back to Bratunac?

7 A. When I got back to Bratunac, I went to the Fontana Hotel, and I

8 reported to Colonel Beara telling him that I had relayed his order in its

9 entirety to Drago Nikolic.

10 Q. Was there anybody around when you reported this information to

11 Colonel Beara?

12 A. No. I found Colonel Beara in the hotel. He was alone, and the

13 two of us were alone when I reported to him.

14 Q. What was the situation -- the security situation around town that

15 night in Bratunac?

16 A. That night, when I returned to Bratunac the situation was

17 extremely tense in the security sense. And I can also say that when I

18 returned, there were buses that kept coming, buses and trucks from Nova

19 Kasaba, Milici, towards Bratunac. I can also tell you that everyone was

20 on his feet when I returned and that in Bratunac, it was rather chaotic.

21 That is, the overall situation in Bratunac was rather chaotic.

22 Q. Why was it chaotic? Can you explain the problem or the situation.

23 A. I can explain. There were -- in Bratunac, in the facilities I

24 have already listed, the school, the hangar, the secondary school centre,

25 the gym, all these facilities contained a large number of Muslims. That

Page 1750

1 evening, a large number of trucks and buses full of Muslim prisoners had

2 arrived in Bratunac from those directions. And the main problem was that

3 there wasn't sufficient manpower, soldiers and police officers, to secure

4 all those imprisoned Muslims who, objectively speaking, were a danger for

5 the town of Bratunac itself.

6 Q. Can you give us a rough estimate of how many Muslim prisoners do

7 you think were being held in the town of Bratunac that evening.

8 A. According to my own estimate and based on what I heard that

9 evening, there were between three and a half and four and a half thousand

10 men in Bratunac that evening. Those were the assessments at the time.

11 Q. Prior to that, when you were with Drago Nikolic in the Zvornik

12 area, did you provide him with any kind of an estimate of how many Muslims

13 would be coming up to his area? Muslim prisoners, that is.

14 A. I told Drago Nikolic at the time that we were talking about a

15 large number of prisoners, several thousand of them. But I really didn't

16 specify whether it was two, three, or five thousand. I said that we were

17 talking about several thousand Muslims who were in Bratunac at the time,

18 and there were more coming.

19 Q. All right. Getting back to the Hotel Fontana that night when you

20 reported to Colonel Beara, what happened? What was said after you gave

21 your report of what you had just been doing?

22 A. Nothing in particular. Colonel Beara was also worried about the

23 situation. He told me that precisely because of that situation, he had a

24 scheduled meeting with Miroslav Deronjic in the premises of his party.

25 And after that, he invited me to join him and go to the premises of the

Page 1751

1 SD party to see Miroslav Deronjic.

2 Q. And did you do that?

3 A. Yes, I did. Colonel Beara and myself, after I had informed him

4 about the assignment I had carried out, we went to Miroslav Deronjic's

5 office.

6 Q. And did you find Mr. Deronjic present at his office?

7 A. Yes, we found him there.

8 Q. And what was discussed there? First of all - sorry - let me ask

9 you: Who else was present at the office when you arrived at Deronjic's

10 office that you can recall?

11 A. In addition to Colonel Beara and Miroslav Deronjic and myself,

12 Colonel Vasic, the chief of the centre of the security services in Zvornik

13 was present.

14 Q. Were there any security people for Beara or any other people

15 around the area?

16 A. No. No. When we attended that meeting, nobody secured us. There

17 may have been someone in a part of the building, but I really didn't see

18 anyone.

19 Q. Okay. What was said by whom at this meeting?

20 A. At that meeting, the dominant atmosphere was concern over the

21 situation in Bratunac. At that same meeting, Miroslav Deronjic tried to

22 impose his view, which was that the Muslims who were in Bratunac at the

23 time and who were still arriving, that they had to be transported out of

24 Bratunac that very same night. And he opposed any idea of executions and

25 killings taking place in and around Bratunac.

Page 1752

1 Then, also there was a discussion as to the measures to be taken

2 to secure and provide security in town during that night and in the

3 morning. Also, what I heard was that Miroslav Deronjic said that he had

4 already spoken to President Karadzic, and that he had his directives and

5 orders to the effect that all those prisoners should be transported

6 towards Zvornik.

7 And one of the questions discussed was that that evening, all

8 the -- the entire police force of the MUP of Republika Srpska should be

9 engaged as well as free -- soldiers who were free, the military police.

10 And in view of the very serious situation, that volunteers should be

11 called in to assist in the security; that is, all the manpower available

12 should be used to secure the Muslims who were in buses, trucks, in front

13 of the schools, in the side roads. Anyway, in the very centre of town.

14 Q. Who brought up the killing of the prisoners?

15 A. The killing of the prisoners was mentioned by Colonel Beara. And

16 at that meeting, there was open discussion about those Muslims who had

17 been captured would later be killed. I told you that the problem

18 discussed was whether this should be done in Bratunac, in Zvornik, or

19 somewhere else. And there was a lot of debate and dispute and argument

20 about this between Colonel Beara and Miroslav Deronjic.

21 Q. Previously, you had mentioned a couple of locations, the brick

22 factory and the Sase mine. Did those places ever come up in this

23 discussion?

24 A. No. At that meeting, no specific sites of execution were

25 mentioned. At least, I didn't hear that.

Page 1753

1 Q. Was there any resolution or decision made while you were present

2 in the -- at this meeting?

3 A. A final decision was taken, or rather, there were no real

4 conclusions. But at least that was my impression, that all security

5 measures should be taken that evening to secure the Muslims and the town

6 until the next day, that is, until the 14th, when the process of their

7 transfer to the territory of Zvornik Municipality would begin.

8 Q. Was it possible to have continued to send people up to Zvornik

9 that night?

10 A. That night, as I already told you, during that night, I learned

11 that a convoy had left along a different route from the one I took to go

12 to Zvornik, and that is Bratunac, the bridge across the Drina, Drinjaca,

13 but downstream along the Drina. However, that night, it was not possible

14 to continue with the transportation because we didn't have enough manpower

15 which was needed to escort the buses and trucks on their way to Zvornik.

16 Q. That night, the night of the 13th, early morning hours of the

17 14th, what forces were guarding the Muslim prisoners at what locations, as

18 far as you know?

19 A. As far as I know, I know the following: That the Vuk Karadzic

20 primary school was secured by the military police, that is, members of the

21 military police of the Bratunac Brigade. And the school was already full

22 at the time, and I know that Commander Jankovic, Mirko Jankovic, conveyed

23 to me that elements of the MUP from the public security station had been

24 added to the security. I also know that the other facilities where

25 Muslims were being held, the secondary school building, for instance, the

Page 1754

1 hangar building, the gym which was part of the Vuk Karadzic elementary

2 school, that those premises and those Muslim prisoners were being secured

3 by the police force. I also know that the trucks and buses that were

4 arriving along that road were being secured by both members of the

5 civilian police force and that that evening, a large number of volunteers

6 were organised who were called in to take part in securing those

7 prisoners.

8 Q. And you've mentioned police forces and civilian police forces.

9 Can you, as you know, the Ministry of the Interior had different sorts of

10 police forces that you have described for us earlier. To your knowledge,

11 can you explain to us a little more which -- distinguish the various

12 forces of the Ministry of the Interior police.

13 A. I think I've already explained that. But let me tell you again.

14 As far as I know, within the MUP forces was a special MUP brigade. This

15 is one kind of police force. Then there were units of the so-called PJP

16 police units. And there were also MUP members who were part of the

17 municipal public security stations. The special MUP brigade is a combat

18 unit of the MUP which is formed as follows: Young, able-bodied men, they

19 have personal weapons, mostly automatic weapons. There are also artillery

20 pieces within that unit, and also armoured vehicles or heavy artillery, if

21 I can call them that, tanks, APCs, Pragas, and the rest. Then there are

22 the PJP units --

23 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Nikolic, sorry. My question, what I meant to ask

24 you was do you know which of those units were involved in guarding

25 prisoners in Bratunac the evening of 13 July and 14 July? Were there

Page 1755

1 special police brigade units in Bratunac guarding prisoners? Were there

2 PJP units? Was it the civilian police? Could you tell us? You've

3 mentioned police. We just want to know, if you do know, which units of

4 the police were in Bratunac that evening guarding prisoners.

5 A. Which units of the police only? Of the Ministry of the Interior,

6 is that what you mean, Mr. McCloskey? I don't quite understand the

7 question. Are you asking me about units of the Ministry of the Interior?

8 Q. Were there any special police units, the people you have described

9 under the command of Dusko Jevic and Mr. Borovcanin? Were any of those

10 units guarding prisoners in Bratunac this evening?

11 A. I really am unable to confirm which exact units were guarding the

12 prisoners because that evening I wasn't there and I don't know. But I can

13 tell you on the basis of what Miodrag Josipovic told me, and what we

14 discussed after the 14th, I can just tell you what I'm saying, that

15 whatever was available from municipal units, PJP units, elements that they

16 took out of their regular duties to guard the prisoners were providing

17 security in that area. I can't tell you exactly which unit belonging to

18 which force was deployed where.

19 Q. Did any of those police units wear blue uniforms?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to interrupt, but the gentleman

23 indicated that he wasn't there or he didn't check to see which units. Now

24 he's being asked about a uniform. Now, if this is sort of just a broad

25 question on what kind of uniforms the police wore and the types of

Page 1756

1 uniforms, that's fine. But if the question is directed as to which type

2 of uniform the police officers guarding the prisoners on that particular

3 night, what this gentleman didn't see, if that's the question, then I

4 definitely object to it because it calls for speculation.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with Mr. Karnavas.

6 Maybe, Mr. McCloskey, it's time for a break. Maybe we could break

7 here, then you think over your question during the break.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Mr. Nikolic, what colour uniforms do municipal police officers

15 normally wear?

16 A. Municipal police uniforms, normally wear blue police uniforms.

17 Q. After your meeting at the SDS office with Beara and Mr. Deronjic,

18 what did you do?

19 A. After that meeting, I went to the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

20 I went straight to the operations room there.

21 Q. And what did you do there?

22 A. In the operations room, I found virtually all the officers from

23 the brigade command, or most of them. I told the officers what had to be

24 done. Actually, I told them that we had to bear out the night until the

25 next morning, and I told them that all the prisoners in Bratunac were

Page 1757

1 expected to be transported the next day to the territory of Zvornik

2 Municipality.

3 Q. Did you meet with your commander that evening?

4 A. Yes. That evening, Commander Blagojevic was also in the

5 operations room. And I can also say that I told him separately about what

6 was going on in town, the things I knew. I also told him that I had been

7 in Zvornik. I told him what I had been doing in Zvornik. I conveyed to

8 him the same that I had told the commanding officers, that we had to bear

9 out until the next day. And I told him that the meeting I had attended, a

10 decision had been taken for all the potential -- that all the men

11 available should be engaged to guard the people coming to the town.

12 Q. What time did you meet individually with your commander?

13 A. That was in the operations room. I told him all that in the

14 operations room. And particularly, what I had just -- what I just told

15 you. This was after 12.00, maybe 12.30, 12.45. Roughly about that time.

16 Actually, to make myself clearer, it was 45 minutes after midnight. So

17 that would already be the 14th of July.

18 Q. Did you have a separate meeting with Commander Blagojevic that

19 evening?

20 A. A separate meeting? As far as I can remember, I did not have.

21 I'm not sure about it. It was separate in the sense that I told

22 Commander Blagojevic himself and the members of the brigade command who

23 were present in the room.

24 Q. In your previous answer, you said -- when I asked you, did you

25 meet with your commander that evening, you said: "Yes, that evening

Page 1758

1 Commander Blagojevic was also in the operations room, and I can also say

2 that I told him separately about what was going on in town." And then you

3 go on. When you say "separately," can you clarify what you mean by

4 "separately"?

5 A. I can. I meant I wasn't talking to all of them in the operations

6 room. The two of us stood aside in the operations room, and then I told

7 him what had been going on. Actually, I conveyed to him everything I had

8 done that evening and what we were to expect as far as I knew.

9 Q. All right. I'm going to need you to tell us as best you can

10 recall particularly what you told him that night.

11 A. I told him that upon orders from Colonel Beara, I had gone to

12 Zvornik. I told him the substance of the order which I conveyed to

13 Drago Nikolic in Zvornik. I then told him that I had attended a meeting

14 in the SDS office in Bratunac. After that, I told him what was discussed

15 at that meeting. I also told him that we had to prevail until the next

16 day, the 14th, when the transportation to Zvornik would begin. I told him

17 also what I knew as to what would happen when the people were transported

18 to Zvornik within the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade.

19 Q. Explain what do you mean, you knew what would happen.

20 A. I said that the Muslims who were held prisoner in Bratunac would

21 be transported on the 14th to Zvornik and that in Zvornik, they would be

22 killed.

23 Q. Did you tell him who gave you that information?

24 A. Yes. I told him that that information or that order I had

25 received from Colonel Beara.

Page 1759

1 Q. And did you tell him about the killings that were discussed

2 between you and Deronjic and Vasic and Beara at the SDS office?

3 A. Yes. I did tell him about the meeting and about what was

4 discussed at the meeting.

5 Q. What was his response when you told him that all these Muslims

6 were going to be killed up in Zvornik?

7 A. As far as I know, there was no reaction or comment on his part.

8 There was no reaction or comments on what I had informed him about.

9 Q. So what did you do after providing that information to your

10 commander Blagojevic that evening?

11 A. After that, I went to the military police building. I conferred

12 with the military police commander and looked into the possibilities there

13 were for further engagement of the military police platoon on guarding the

14 buildings and buses where the Muslim prisoners were being held. There

15 were no policemen available to provide security there because they had all

16 been assigned to other tasks that had been designed on the 13th.

17 Q. Did that include guarding the Muslim prisoners?

18 A. Yes. That's precisely what I was talking about. The possibility

19 for more military policemen of the Bratunac Brigade to provide security

20 where the Muslims were being held in detention.

21 Q. Then what did you do?

22 A. Nothing. It was late, and I went to sleep after that.

23 Q. And when were you on duty next?

24 A. My next duty was on the 14th. I first went to the Fontana Hotel

25 to check security there, the police security. After, that I stayed a

Page 1760

1 while, and I went to the secondary school centre, the new school,

2 secondary school centre where members of UNPROFOR had been transferred to

3 and guarded by military police. Having made that round, between 9.00 and

4 half past 9.00, I left for the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

5 Q. And then what did you do?

6 A. I didn't do anything then. I can tell you what I found on my way

7 to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. As I was on my way, I saw in front of me a column forming, a

10 columns of trucks, buses. The transport to Zvornik was underway from the

11 schools and other facilities where the Muslim prisoners had been detained.

12 At the head of that column, I saw a white APC. I parked my car near the

13 bus stop, near a widening of the road in Bratunac. I watched the convoy

14 form and depart for Zvornik.

15 Q. Do you know what this white APC did?

16 A. Yes. Mirko Jankovic, when he returned from Zvornik, informed me

17 that the white APC was at the head of the column escorting the Muslim

18 prisoners being transferred to Zvornik.

19 Q. Did Mirko Jankovic tell you what his involvement was in any of

20 this, this transporting to -- the Muslims to Zvornik?

21 A. Yes, he did. He told me that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic had

22 ordered him to take the APC and to provide security at the front of the

23 column. His task was to see the convoy safely to designated places in

24 Zvornik where the Muslim prisoners would again be detained. And after

25 having seen them there safely, he would return. That was his task. That

Page 1761

1 was his involvement in seeing the column of prisoners get there.

2 Q. Did he give you any other information about what he had done

3 there, what had happened along the way, or in Zvornik?

4 A. He informed me that he had reached certain features, or rather,

5 villages in Zvornik Municipality. He saw the prisoners coming off the

6 buses and walking to those buildings where they were being accommodated,

7 schools and other buildings. He didn't give me the exact location of

8 those villages. He probably didn't know. Then he said that policemen

9 from the military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade were taking part

10 in the transport and securing the transport as well as the buses in which

11 the prisoners were being transferred to Zvornik. That was what he told me

12 upon his return from Zvornik.

13 Q. What day did he give you this information and what time?

14 A. This information concerning the escort of the convoy and his own

15 involvement, he gave me this information on the same day when he returned

16 to Zvornik on the 14th in the afternoon hours.

17 Q. Did you ever receive any information about any Bratunac MPs

18 staying in Zvornik?

19 A. Yes. I received information on the 17th, late in the day, the

20 17th, that a military police patrol escorting the Muslim prisoners had

21 stayed behind in Bilica to provide security for the Muslims who were

22 detained in one of the buildings there in Bilica.

23 Q. When you say military police patrol, how many military police

24 officers would that have been?

25 A. Normally a patrol would comprise two or three men.

Page 1762

1 Q. Do you know what days they stayed over in this area, up in the

2 Zvornik area?

3 A. I was informed on the 17th. As for what Mirko told me, I think

4 they stayed for about two days. I think they stayed for two days.

5 Q. Do you know which two days?

6 A. I think the 14th and the 15th, or the 15th and the 16th, but I

7 can't be sure.

8 Q. Did you receive any information about bodies of Muslims around

9 the school areas in Bratunac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us what information you received.

12 A. I received information that during the night, between the 13th and

13 the 14th, there had been killings of Muslims, that some people had been

14 taken off the buses and that Muslims who had been staying in the hangar

15 had been killed. I received information that between 80 and a hundred

16 Muslims had been killed that night.

17 Q. From whom did you receive this information?

18 A. I received this information from the commander of the civilian

19 affairs unit, Dragan Mirkovic.

20 Q. Can you describe what the commander of the civilian affairs unit,

21 what his normal responsibilities are just briefly.

22 A. The responsibilities of the commander of the civilian affairs unit

23 for the most part entailed tasks of clearing the terrain, clearing the

24 area in which combat activities and other activities took place, clearing

25 buildings and territory in which captured or detained Muslims were being

Page 1763

1 held. Cleaning and burial of bodies found as a result of combat

2 operations or otherwise killed. That would amount to his tasks.

3 Q. You used the B/C/S term "asanacija". Can you define what that

4 term means in particular.

5 A. The B/C/S term asanacija is one of the measures from the general

6 area of civilian protection. It entails the clearing of terrain, removing

7 dead bodies, removing animals that had been killed or burned. In one

8 word, it involves clearing both the terrain and the buildings and removing

9 everything that could cause epidemics or diseases later on.

10 Q. Did the commander of the civilian affairs unit, Dragan Mirkovic,

11 identify who he believed killed these Muslims?

12 A. No. Dragan Mirkovic did not tell me who had killed the Muslims.

13 He told me what he knew about the dead bodies that had been found on the

14 14th, or rather, the Muslims that had been killed between the 13th and the

15 14th. He told me that the civilian bodies, the civilian government

16 requested for him to provide a vehicle so that the dead bodies of the

17 Muslims that had been killed could be put away during the night.

18 Q. Did you speak to your commander Blagojevic on the 14th as far as

19 you know?

20 A. Yes, I did speak to Commander Blagojevic.

21 Q. And what did you speak to him about?

22 A. Again, I must say on the 14th, no official meeting with Colonel

23 Blagojevic took place. However, we talked mainly about what I had found

24 out in relation to those killed at the Vuk Karadzic elementary school and

25 the situation that night. Of course, we also talked about the transport

Page 1764

1 and about the involvement of our members from the military police, Mirko

2 Jankovic, in the transport of the captured persons in the Zvornik

3 territory, Zvornik municipal territory.

4 Q. Did Mr. Blagojevic have any further instructions or comments to

5 you relating to what you had told him about, the things you just told us

6 about?

7 A. No. Not as far as I know. And I think my recollection is quite

8 clear. There were no specific instructions or orders or directives

9 regarding what I had informed him about. And he was aware of these things

10 himself, even without me informing him.

11 Q. How do you know that?

12 A. How do I know that? I'm not sure I understand the question. How

13 do I know that he had been informed, or how do I know that he issued me

14 instructions?

15 Q. How do you know that he was informed of this information that you

16 had been providing him? Why do you think that?

17 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I know this because the transport operation,

18 the operation of detaining persons and everything that was going on in

19 town in those days, was so comprehensive, was so large scale, the logistic

20 support and everything else that was happening, most of the Bratunac

21 Brigade officers took part in that. Organs of the Bratunac Brigade took

22 part, and some of the units of the Bratunac Brigade took part. It is

23 normal that a commander in that situation would know what was going on in

24 town. Furthermore, this was all happening in the centre of town, in the

25 town of Bratunac. It would have been normal for a brigade commander to

Page 1765

1 know what was happening in town.

2 Q. Do you know when Beara left the Bratunac area?

3 A. I don't know exactly when he left.

4 Q. Do you know when your commander Blagojevic left the Bratunac area?

5 A. As far as I know and to the best of my recollection, roughly

6 speaking, it was on the 17th of July, 1995. That's when Commander

7 Blagojevic left for Zepa.

8 Q. And did he take some troops with him to take part in the Zepa

9 operation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you know roughly when he returned?

12 A. Roughly, and this is all I can give you, I think he returned after

13 the fall of Zepa. I'm not sure whether it was -- I don't know the exact

14 date, but I know it was after the fall of Zepa that he returned. But I

15 know nothing about Zepa itself, so I can't give you the exact date of his

16 return. I know it was certainly after the fall of Zepa.

17 Q. Do you know if it was in July or August or later?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, we go back to the multiple choice, you know,

21 trying to help the witness out. It's leading. If the gentleman said he

22 doesn't remember. Now, if he has got something to refresh his memory, I

23 would welcome that opportunity. There's no problem with that. But this

24 giving the witness multiple choice suggestive answers, I object to.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we have to know roughly during

Page 1766

1 which months that your client came back. I understand the witness said he

2 did not know the exact date. But it doesn't matter.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I couldn't agree with you more, Your Honour, but

4 there may be a way other than giving suggestive answers, perhaps, to

5 refresh the gentleman's memory because after all, the Prosecutor has been

6 working on this case for eight years.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think this issue is of crucial

8 importance for your client. And in these circumstances, the questions

9 with certain leading elements are allowed.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. I gave you several options of months. Any idea what month he may

14 have been back in?

15 A. As far as I know, he returned at some point in July, after the

16 fall of Zepa.

17 Q. At some point, did you receive information that bodies in the

18 Bratunac Brigade zone should be dug up and moved to some other locations?

19 A. Yes. I received that information, or rather instructions in

20 September, at some point in September. I can't tell you the exact date,

21 September 1995.

22 Q. Can you tell us who you received those instructions from.

23 A. I received those instructions from the chief of security of the

24 Drina Corps, Mr. Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.

25 Q. And what did Popovic tell you?

Page 1767

1 A. Popovic told me then that the main staff of the army of Republika

2 Srpska had ordered him to transfer the bodies of the Muslims who had been

3 buried in the village of Glogovi to a set of new locations in

4 Srebrenica Municipality.

5 Q. So what happened after he told you that?

6 A. After he told me that, another thing I wish to tell you is that

7 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic also told me on that occasion that I would be

8 in charge of coordinating activities in that respect and that fuel for

9 this operation would be provided by the main staff and command of the

10 Drina Corps. Further, he told me that the 5th engineering battalion of

11 the Drina Corps would take part in the operation with their equipment. He

12 said that the civilian police would also take part in the operation. He

13 told me that security for the operation, that's between the graves in

14 Glogovi and the transfer of these dead bodies to Srebrenica Municipality,

15 would be provided by members of the military police from the

16 Bratunac Brigade.

17 He said as the logistical support of the 5th engineering battalion

18 would not be sufficient, we should get in touch with the civilian

19 authorities to try to secure additional heavy equipment and trucks that

20 would be necessary for the operation. After I had received this task and

21 after I had been told what I had been told by Mr. Popovic, I informed

22 Colonel Blagojevic accordingly telling him also that we should get in

23 touch with the civilian authorities. I obtained authorisation from

24 Colonel Blagojevic to contact the president of Bratunac Municipality, the

25 president of the Executive Board, and the chief of the MUP, the

Page 1768

1 Bratunac MUP. I did so, and a meeting was organised at the

2 Municipal Assembly building in Bratunac with the chief of the MUP ministry

3 in Bratunac, Mr. Vespovic in attendance, as well as president of the

4 municipality Ljubisa Simic, president of the executive board of Bratunac,

5 Srbislav Davidovic, and myself.

6 They assumed the responsibility to talk to presidents of those

7 companies which actually owned the heavy equipment. That heavy equipment

8 would be commandeered, they said, and used in the operation.

9 Heavy equipment from the following companies was used: Socially

10 owned enterprise, Bratunac Brickworks; communal state company Komunalno

11 Bratunac; heavy equipment and trucks from both companies were used.

12 Trucks were used belonging to the state-owned company Sase mine; from

13 Autoprevoz Srebrenica, trucks were taken from them. A digger was taken

14 from a state-owned construction company, Radnik, based in Srebrenica.

15 After this, the graves were dug up in the village of Glogova, and

16 the bodies were moved to new gravesites in Srebrenica Municipality. As

17 for the officers of the Bratunac Brigade who took part in that operation,

18 I, for one, coordinated the functioning of the entire operation.

19 Assistant chief of intelligence Jovanovic, Dragisa, also took part.

20 Commander of the military police platoon Mirko Jankovic also took part, as

21 well as the whole military police platoon depending on the specific day of

22 the operation because the operation did go on for quite a while.

23 Q. Aside from the one time you've already told us where you reported

24 Popovic's communications to you, did you ever keep your commander

25 Blagojevic informed of the process of reburial?

Page 1769

1 A. I did. Commander Blagojevic was aware of my involvement and the

2 involvement of the other officers and members of the military police

3 platoon, and I regularly informed him about the situation and the progress

4 of the reburial of those corpses.

5 Q. Can you tell us just the rough locations where some of the bodies

6 were reburied to.

7 A. I can say approximately, and only approximately because

8 Dragisa Jovanovic selected the locations for those graves for the reburial

9 of bodies. I know it was along the road in the region, that is, the road

10 Zeleni Jadar towards Zenovo. And certain gravesites were in different

11 places. One or two -- I knew of one, the exact location was near the

12 village of Zaluzje. The next one was in the Muslim cemetery in the Budak

13 cemetery. Another mass grave in the village of Becevo. And I knew more

14 or less where all the graves were in which the Muslims were reburied.

15 I want to say here that I personally was present at two

16 gravesites. The first one is the one towards the village of Zaluzje,

17 along that road. And I was at another gravesite. And that is the one in

18 the village of Becevo. The one gravesite that I was at near Zaluzje was

19 dug by Bibi Sretan who manned the excavator, and the other one was dug by

20 Canuga. I don't know his surname.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, is it possible for you to provide a map

22 to the witness so that we could know the exact location of these

23 gravesites.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, some of those he knows about; others,

25 as he has said, he doesn't really know the exact locations. We have

Page 1770

1 identified all those sites, and we have that for Your Honours. I can

2 bring in a map and ask him to point at it so you can get a feel for the

3 areas. That's not difficult. In fact, I can do that right now.

4 If we can put this on the ELMO. And this is Prosecutor's P85.

5 It's a map, it's not a military map. But it is an exhibit-type map of the

6 area.

7 Q. And there should be a pointer, Mr. Nikolic. So if you could first

8 point to the area of Zelani Jadar which is I believe where you said some

9 graves. Just look at the map as it's sitting on the ELMO.

10 A. I can barely see the inscriptions. The image is not clear. Could

11 you move it up, please.

12 Q. Keep going, keep going. Sorry, we now have a -- in front of the

13 screen. Right there it pretty good. Mr. Nikolic, if I can look at the

14 map itself, don't worry about the screen in front of you. Look at the map

15 to your right.

16 A. Yes, this is Zelani Jadar here. And a number of the gravesites

17 are along this route here towards Srebrenica. This is Srebrenica. So

18 it's on the road towards Zelani Jadar. I think two are in the village of

19 Ljubisavici. And the next gravesites are on the road from Zelani Jadar

20 towards Jasenovi. I don't see it here, Jasenovi, towards Milici actually,

21 going from Zelani Jadar.

22 Q. So Milici by that map -- so Milici by this map would be in a

23 westerly direction?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Could you point out Glogova for us, where the bodies originated?

Page 1771

1 A. Glogova would be on the road between Bratunac and Kravica. If I

2 may just look at it more closely. Here is Bratunac. And going from

3 Bratunac at the six kilometre towards the village -- no, the fourth or

4 fifth kilometre along this road from Bratunac to Kravica in the village of

5 Glogova was this large mass grave from which the bodies were reburied to

6 the places I have referred to.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, Your Honour, this map is roughly

8 to scale. Each square represents a kilometre.

9 Q. All right, Mr. Nikolic, one other question on that topic. You

10 told us you received information about 80 to a hundred bodies from the

11 school area in Bratunac from, I think, Dragan Mirkovic. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's what I said.

13 Q. Did you receive any information from him where those bodies were

14 deposited?

15 A. Yes, Your Honours. Dragan Mirkovic also informed me that the

16 killed Muslims killed in the night between the 13th and the 14th had been

17 collected during the night and in the early morning of the 14th and

18 transferred into the surroundings of Glogova in an isolated place close to

19 Avdagina Njiva, and that they were just covered by earth and buried in

20 that way. Unloaded and covered by earth.

21 Q. When you say "unloaded," did you receive information of how they

22 were unloaded or how they were deposited?

23 A. Yes. Dragan Mirkovic told me that representatives of the civilian

24 authorities had asked for a truck from his company which was a FAP 13, a

25 truck that can lift -- the back of which can be lifted, and in that way

Page 1772

1 the load deposited.

2 Q. Were you provided information about the geographic description of

3 the area that they were unloaded in?

4 A. Yes. He told me then that this was done in an area which is about

5 1 kilometre away from this mass grave and that when you come to Avdagina

6 Njiva village, you take a return to the right. And after a certain

7 distance, this was done where there is no settlement. In the broader area

8 of Avdagina Njiva. He mentioned the village of Halilovici. I don't know

9 where that village is situated, but I do know the road and where it leads

10 to.

11 Q. At any point after the fall of the Srebrenica enclave did you

12 receive instructions to destroy documents?

13 A. After the fall of Srebrenica, I did not receive instructions to

14 destroy documents. But I can explain what I did with the documents when

15 handing over my treasury box when I was delivering the documents.

16 Q. Tell us what, if anything, you did related to Srebrenica-type

17 documents.

18 A. During the handing over of the safe, I was no longer chief of the

19 security and intelligence organ in the brigade. All the documents which

20 had anything to do with Srebrenica I destroyed, set light to them, in the

21 presence of a commission from the corps command and in the presence of the

22 officer to whom I handed over the safe and whatever was in it.

23 Q. What do you mean by "commission"? What is this commission from

24 the corps command you're talking about?

25 A. It is a group of three officers who came to Bratunac for a record

Page 1773

1 to be made in its presence and for the safe and documents to be handed

2 over in their presence. The safe and everything inside so that a

3 commission should be present and a report compiled, and this handed over

4 to the officer designated to be my successor in the Bratunac Brigade.

5 Q. So where did the -- why did you destroy documents?

6 A. I destroyed them -- I destroyed everything that I thought at that

7 point in time could compromise me and the brigade, so I destroyed it.

8 Q. Had you received any instructions from anyone to do that?

9 A. No. I didn't receive instructions from anyone to do that. I did

10 it myself because I felt that my documents, those that were not conveyed

11 to the archives, should not be passed on to my successor who simply had

12 not worked in that body before coming to replace me.

13 Q. What kind of documents did you destroy?

14 A. I destroyed all the documents relating to the period, that is,

15 reports around Srebrenica, before the beginning of operations, during the

16 operations, following the operations about which I reported to the command

17 of the Drina Corps. Therefore, all written documents and reports that I

18 had in my safe.

19 Q. And about what date did this occur, the destruction of the

20 documents?

21 A. I really cannot tell you when that was. I can just say

22 approximately that I destroyed those documents after I left the Bratunac

23 Brigade. I went to take up duties as head of department in the ministry

24 for displaced persons after which the request came for me to go to the

25 command and destroy those documents. So after I left the command of the

Page 1774

1 Bratunac Brigade. I was no longer performing those duties, but I hadn't

2 in the meantime handed over the keys of the safe, nor the documents. So

3 I'm not able to tell you the exact date when this was done.

4 Q. Now, you've told us that you destroyed the documents on your own,

5 and you've just said that there was a request from the brigade command to

6 come over and destroy the documents. Can you clear that up for us. What

7 do you mean?

8 A. No. I said that the request came from the brigade command for me

9 to hand over the safe. And in that request, there was no indication

10 anywhere that I should destroy the documents. So from the brigade

11 command, the request arrived for me to come and hand over my safe.

12 Q. When you destroyed the documents, was there anybody present that

13 witnessed that?

14 A. Yes. When I set fire to the documents the chief of security of

15 the Drina Corps was present, Major Pajic. Also present were two other

16 commanding officers from the corps command who constituted the commission

17 of the corps command for the handing over of documents, and also Captain

18 Lazar Ostojic, an officer of the Bratunac Brigade, to whom I was handing

19 over the safe and the documents.

20 Q. Did any of those people object to you destroying the documents in

21 their presence?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And again, can you give us just a rough estimate of when this

24 would have occurred.

25 A. I really am not able to guess. I can't tell you when this was. I

Page 1775

1 know that I wasn't working there any more, that I was called in. But I

2 can't tell you when that was.

3 Q. Can you remind us when you left the Bratunac Brigade or when your

4 employment with them stopped.

5 A. I can. Officially, I was demobilised on the 20th of April, 1996.

6 But I must also add that even after being decommissioned and after I had

7 started working in the ministry for refugees and displaced persons, for a

8 short while, I continued to perform the duty. And for a while, I did

9 continue reporting about events in Bratunac, especially the events linked

10 to the involvement of UNPROFOR units and certain individuals, reporters

11 and others who came to Bratunac. That was, I wish to remind you that this

12 was an agreement that had been reached between me and my superior officer

13 from the corps command, Mr. Popovic. They would allow me to move to this

14 new ministry, but until a new officer is appointed, that I should continue

15 working in that area should the need arise.

16 Q. You referred to one of the Drina Corps officers present at the

17 destruction of the document as the chief of security. Can you tell us

18 again who that was.

19 A. It was Major Pajic.

20 Q. Do you know what happened to Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic

21 who, as you described, at the time of the events was the chief of security

22 for the Drina Corps?

23 A. I said that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was chief of security of

24 the corps when I was about to take up new duties in the ministry for

25 refugees and displaced persons, and I was referring to that period. But

Page 1776

1 in the period when I was handing over my safe, the chief of security was

2 Major Pajic. And I think that this was perhaps a month, two, or three

3 after I had already left the Bratunac Brigade. Maybe it wasn't that long,

4 but certainly Vujadin Popovic had left the corps command.

5 Q. Do you know the first name of this Major Pajic?

6 A. I knew it, but I really can't remember now.

7 Q. You've already described at the time of the events that the chief

8 of staff of the Bratunac Brigade was a -- was named Pajic. Is this the

9 same Pajic or a different Pajic?

10 A. No, no. He has nothing to do with Novica Pajic, who was chief of

11 staff of the Bratunac Brigade. This was an officer from the command of

12 the Drina Corps.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we have a couple of short

14 videoclips, a few documents, and it's looking good for ending before the

15 end of the day. And I will just start with the videoclips. We're hoping

16 that the audiovisual will work. And I would just be asking the witness a

17 few questions about the video.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, during this sitting, we just have five minutes.

19 So you just tell me when you are ready to stop.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. We might be able to finish the video

21 in that five minutes, or at least some of it.

22 Q. First of all, I want to show you --

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And Mr. President, these are videos that we've all

24 seen already. They're just clips from the exhibits that are already in

25 evidence. The first one we have marked as P88 so that you can see it

Page 1777

1 separately. And it's from 12 July before the meeting at the Hotel

2 Fontana. And if we could just run that video, and if we could -- I'm

3 going to stop it if possible at a particular place.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could stop it there.

6 Your Honour, again I have got two different versions that are

7 both -- one is not very visible. If I could walk over and see what the

8 witness can see, I can tell whether or not I can ask him questions about

9 it. I have a hard copy if his screen is not working very well.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Looks okay.

12 Q. All right. In looking at this still, can you first tell us where

13 this is.

14 A. This is a shot taken in front of the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac.

15 Q. And do you know about what time this is, what day this is and what

16 time?

17 A. This was the 12th of July, 1995, after the meeting held at 10.00;

18 that is, after the meeting ended on the 12th of July, the third meeting in

19 the Fontana Hotel.

20 Q. All right. Can you tell us who these individuals are starting

21 with the person on the far left of the screen.

22 A. The first person on the left is me, Momir Nikolic. The next

23 person that can be seen going from the left, the second person, is

24 Colonel Jankovic. The person in the doorway is a person from the personal

25 security of General Mladic. And the last person in this row is

Page 1778

1 Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic.

2 Q. Okay. If we could let the video run.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could you stop it again.

5 Q. Now, this particular still, can you tell us where that is.

6 A. This is also in front of the hotel in Bratunac at the entrance to

7 the hotel itself, the area in front of the hotel leading to the entrance

8 to the hotel.

9 Q. Can you tell what -- at what time and day this is.

10 A. What I can see, I believe this was also on the 12th. I can't see

11 what goes on after this, but I think this is the 12th.

12 Q. And can you identify any of those individuals that we see, the

13 three people. And again, starting with the far left, the person in the

14 background.

15 A. The person standing in the background is the DutchBat commander,

16 Colonel Karremans. Second person with his back turned towards the camera,

17 as far as I can identify, is Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, Vujadin Popovic.

18 And the person wearing a moustache is Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

19 Q. Do you know if this is before or after the meeting at the Hotel

20 Fontana on the 12th?

21 A. I really don't know.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could just continue.

24 [Videotape played]


Page 1779

1 Q. And what is this? Who's arriving here?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: You can just let it play.

3 Stop.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, you can see the Muslim

5 delegation arriving in Bratunac, in the area outside the Fontana Hotel.

6 Q. And can you name the people, again, from the left to the right, or

7 whatever you can remember.

8 A. In the background, there's a security man, the far left, General

9 Mladic's security. The next person you can see is the one wearing the

10 white shirt. That's Ibro Nuhanovic. Next to him, a lady whose name I

11 can't remember. I know who she was. She was a member of the delegation.

12 And the far right, you can see Nesib Mandzic.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can just finish it out.

15 Okay. Mr. President, that may be a good time. And I'm hopeful

16 that we'll be able to finish up in the last session.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll resume at 12.30.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon all

22 Your Honours. I see you're all back.

23 I would just play another video section, and this is videoclip

24 P89. And I'll just ask the witness if he recognises anybody in it.

25 Q. Do you recognise the person that is speaking into the microphone

Page 1780

1 now?

2 A. Yes, I do. This is General Krstic. As far as I know, at that

3 time he was the chief of staff of the Drina Corps.

4 Q. Now, it's of an unfortunately bad quality, but if you recognise

5 anyone else as this finishes up, just let us know if you could. But the

6 quality is not great.

7 A. What I can see right now, I don't recognise any of the soldiers

8 surrounding him.

9 Q. All right. We'll just play this clip. It's the clip next to this

10 that I want to get to. But this won't take long. If you do recognise

11 anyone, let us know.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. If we could freeze that.

14 A. In this frozen image, I recognise Zoran Kovacevic, a member of the

15 Bratunac Brigade. I think he was either the deputy commander or the

16 commander of one of the companies that were part of the 2nd infantry

17 battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.

18 Q. All right. Did you have any personal contact with him while you

19 were in Potocari on the 12th or 13th?

20 A. No, no. I was not in touch with him.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, if I could ask this still of this --

22 of a shot of this person that is of a better quality be put on the ELMO.

23 It's the same basic P22, but it's page 22, chapter 10, P9 of that large

24 exhibit which is already into evidence.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may.

Page 1781


2 MR. KARNAVAS: I surely don't wish to interrupt, but he's already

3 identified. It's already into evidence. May I ask what the relevancy of

4 now going back to the photograph as opposed to the video that we just

5 watched, especially since the Court is concerned about time efficiency.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, once the evidence is admitted into evidence, it

7 does not mean that we will put much weight on that piece of evidence. It

8 has to be shown to the witnesses to see whether they could recognise it or

9 not. But of course, I agree with you, we could go through this as quickly

10 as possible since we have already admitted it into evidence.

11 But Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. This is a little clearer shot, I hope,

13 of that similar frame.

14 Q. And you've already identified the gentleman in front of it,

15 Kovacevic. But over his left shoulder, do you see that person just over

16 the left shoulder of Mr. Kovacevic? And I can't tell - I'm sorry - if

17 that is on the screen or not.

18 I don't know if we have an ELMO image yet, Your Honours. And I

19 apologise for that. I can't seem to get it to come up on my screen.

20 A. I can't see anything on my screen.

21 Q. Well, just take a look at that exhibit. Do you recognise someone

22 besides Kovacevic?

23 A. Yes. To the right from where I'm looking from, this is a person

24 wearing a moustache. This is Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

25 Q. Would you just take a pen there and put a circle around the person

Page 1782

1 you're identifying as Kosoric. And just put your initials there, if you

2 could.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Okay. Let's -- if you could show that to Mr. Karnavas so he could

5 see, and of course Defence counsel. It's not a huge issue, but this is

6 the old-fashioned way.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could play this one out, this --

8 and go to the next videoclip.

9 [Videotape played]


11 Q. Do you recognise any of those other guys in this thing, in this

12 image?

13 A. The frame I'm looking at right now, I can't recognise anyone else.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Then let's continue.

16 Okay. If we could play the next clip.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this clip?

20 A. I recognise a person nicknamed Gargija. I'll probably remember

21 his name. Right now, I can't remember, but I'm sure I will.

22 Q. Could you point out where on the image on the screen that we see

23 this.

24 A. Here, where I'm looking from, to the far right of the screen, the

25 person is carrying some kind of barrel of a weapon, I think. I can't see

Page 1783

1 clearly. The still is not very clear. I think he's also wearing a

2 bandanna.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, this is P90.

4 Q. So it's that person on the far right of the screen that you -- is

5 nicknamed Gargija?

6 A. Yes, yes, that's the person I'm talking about.

7 Q. Do you know where this is, this scene on this image?

8 A. As far as I can tell, this is a photo from the Potocari area.

9 Q. And Gargija, do you know what unit he was from?

10 A. At that time, as far as I know, he was a member of the special

11 brigade unit, the Panthers, from Bijeljina.

12 Q. What corps would that be?

13 A. I think at the time that was the East Bosnia Corps.

14 Q. All right.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could continue that.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. How about this person on the far right of the screen? Do you

19 recognise this person?

20 A. Yes. This person at the far right wearing a bandanna is a person

21 nicknamed Lika.

22 Q. Do you know his full name?

23 A. I can't remember that person's full name at the moment.

24 Q. Do you know what unit he was in at the time, in July 1995?

25 A. I know that he was a member of the Bratunac Brigade. Now, whether

Page 1784

1 he was a member of the 3rd infantry battalion, I'm not sure. But I think

2 he was probably a member of the 3rd infantry battalion. At any rate, he

3 was certainly a member of the Bratunac Brigade.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could continue.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. Do you know anything else about this group of people that we saw

9 here, including Lika and Gargija? I'm sorry, not this group; that's

10 another group. But just the guys as they were walking in on the earlier

11 part of this, or do you know anything about them?

12 A. Well, all I can tell you about those two soldiers is what I

13 thought about them, what my personal position was. I think they both

14 belonged to the group of soldiers that I would describe as problematic.

15 Gargija, the first man, had left the brigade pursuant to his own request.

16 In a manner of speaking, he wanted to avoid being in the Bratunac Brigade

17 and the Srebrenica area. That was the reason.

18 As for the other man, the other soldier, he was a person who

19 always created problems for the police of the Bratunac Brigade. He would

20 leave his unit without authorisation, and they often had to take him in.

21 My opinion is that those two soldiers were problematic and displayed an

22 obvious lack of discipline.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could continue.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 1785


2 Q. Let us know if you're able to identify anybody in these photos.

3 A. What we can see now from the back -- the image is too fast. I

4 can't see right now.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I can't see any more. I can only see a fraction of -- I can't

7 identify the person.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. This is Gargija, I think, the person I've just seen. This is the

10 same person I have already identified as Gargija.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. This person here, these people, this person holding a child, this

13 is a Muslim I know personally. He used to work as a driver. Can you just

14 rewind a little bit because I can no longer see it now. The previous.

15 Q. Hold on a second. It takes a bit to rewind.

16 A. This man waving his hand -- now he's gone again. I know him

17 personally. He is the driver who worked in the Vihor Bratunac Transport

18 Company. Can you just rewind to the previous frame, please.

19 Q. Bear with us. This is a new technology we're trying to get used

20 to.

21 A. This man here holding the child, that's the driver's son. I

22 recognise him because I was his teacher at the secondary school. The son

23 of the man you're showing now is the man holding the child.

24 Q. Okay. And who is the man we're showing now with his hand out

25 towards the camera?

Page 1786

1 A. That's the man I was talking about. I can't remember his name,

2 but I do know this man personally. He used to work before the war for the

3 Vihor Bratunac Transport Company. He worked there as a driver. But I

4 really don't know his name.

5 Q. Do you know if he survived Srebrenica?

6 A. I don't know. I don't know what became of him.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, just to clarify the record, this

8 man did, in fact, survive Srebrenica. I don't want to leave a false

9 impression with the Court.

10 If we could continue.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. To the left on my screen, I

13 recognise Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Continue.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, there's a group approaching to

17 the left. At the foreground, we can see General Mladic. To the right

18 wearing a flak jacket is a man who was in charge of General Mladic's

19 security. General Mladic.

20 At the front, I believe I recognised Mr. Kingori. I met him

21 personally during talks prior to the fall of the enclave.


23 Q. Is that the UNMO officer from Africa?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I think -- actually I know that's the officer I'm

25 talking about whom I met. Yes. I met Mr. Kingori a number of times

Page 1787

1 before the enclave was attacked. At the far right, I can see a man

2 wearing a moustache and sunglasses. This is Mr. Dusko Jevic from the

3 police, the MUP special brigade. Yes, you can see it clearly now. Here

4 again we see General Mladic to the left. This is when General Mladic

5 addressed those present the first time he came to Potocari.

6 Q. What date was that?

7 A. That was -- that was on the 12th when he spoke to the civilians

8 present, rather assembled in Potocari. General Mladic and the people from

9 his personal security.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is segment number P93.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see a group of soldiers

13 on the screen on the road between the Zuti Most checkpoint and Potocari.

14 To the left -- the far left of the image, at least on my screen, I can see

15 a soldier whose last name is Stevic. Next to him is a soldier whose last

16 name is Radic. The next soldier standing down the middle of the screen

17 with a rifle slung across his shoulder is soldier Vuksic. All three of

18 these soldiers as far as I know belonged to the 2nd infantry battalion of

19 the Bratunac Brigade.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I want to finish playing this little segment of

21 these soldiers, and just watch what they are doing because I want to ask

22 you a question about that.

23 Q. Those soldiers that you described, can you tell us what they were

24 doing.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I object.

Page 1788


2 MR. KARNAVAS: A foundation needs to be laid first of all. He

3 watched a video, and they seemed to be sitting there. We can all draw a

4 conclusion as to what they might be doing. If we can lay a foundation as

5 to whether he saw those gentlemen over there on that particular day,

6 whether he tasked them, or he knows they were tasked, I don't have a

7 problem. But as of right now no foundation has been made for this

8 gentleman to give a speculative answer.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, you have to ask whether this

10 witness was there during that day.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can, Your Honour. We have been through this

12 already. But I can ask him again if you'd like.

13 Q. Do you know what day these soldiers are standing there in this

14 position?

15 A. Where they were standing just now, I know that that was on the

16 12th of July in the afternoon, in the early afternoon.

17 Q. Do you know what units they belonged to?

18 A. Yes. The soldiers I just saw belonged to the 2nd infantry

19 battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.

20 Q. And do you recall being present at this scene where these soldiers

21 are standing, or you could see these guys standing there like that?

22 A. I could see them, but I wasn't present there. At the time I was

23 in Potocari.

24 Q. Excuse me. Were you present to be able to see these guys standing

25 there at the time, or...? I think we have a little confusion here. Do

Page 1789

1 you remember this scene that is depicted in the video?

2 A. Yes, I can confirm that I do remember those soldiers. But I

3 wasn't there with them just then, but I remember those soldiers who were

4 on that segment of the road towards Potocari.

5 Q. All right. And can you tell by looking at this video which --

6 what these particular soldiers are doing.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Same objection, Your Honour.


9 MR. KARNAVAS: Same objection. A foundation has not been able to

10 be established, so I have the same foundation. He's asking the witness

11 now to speculate. The Court has seen the video, the Court can draw its

12 own conclusions. If Mr. McCloskey has other witnesses that he can bring

13 other witnesses that he can bring forward such as this particular

14 gentleman that are shown in the footage, that's fine, but through this,

15 I'm afraid as far as I'm concerned he is unable to make any determination

16 as to what these gentlemen were doing. And it seems to me they were just

17 standing there, nothing more.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, since there is no sound

19 foundation, I hope you could drop this question.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, yesterday this witness testified

21 that he was the one in charge of organising and facilitating the actions

22 of various units in Potocari. He named the infantry battalions that these

23 folks are from and said that they were present doing perimeter security,

24 is my best recollection. And with that in mind, and having him see this

25 video, I just want to ask him, you know, what are they doing, if he knows.

Page 1790

1 Is this the perimeter security that he's talking about, or are these guys

2 just standing there on a lunch break from somewhere else? He's in a

3 perfect position to know; he's in charge of them.

4 JUDGE LIU: We are talking about these particular clips of the

5 video, and the witness has already told us he was not there when this

6 video was shot. So it's very difficult for this witness to tell us what

7 those people in that video are doing at that time. He may tell us what he

8 saw and what he heard personally at that time, which may not be in this

9 video.

10 Now here, we are talking about this particular situation of that

11 videoclip.


13 Q. Mr. Nikolic, setting aside this videoclip, you testified that

14 you'd seen these folks in Potocari on the 12th. When you saw them, what

15 were they doing?

16 A. Mr. McCloskey, I testified and said that I saw elements of units

17 of the 2nd infantry battalion and elements of the 3rd infantry battalion

18 in Potocari. And in answer to your question, I can say that I do know

19 that those men, those soldiers who were in Potocari, were assisting or

20 working in and around the transport of civilians from Potocari in the

21 period during which I was in Potocari.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go on to the next clip.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here, on this still, I

Page 1791

1 recognise on the right of the screen two members of the military police of

2 the Bratunac Brigade. The first one with the rifle in his hand is

3 policeman Radenko Zaric. And the other policeman, and you can just see

4 his head, is a policeman from the Bratunac Brigade. His name is Milovan

5 Mitrovic.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: This clip is Exhibit P93, Your Honours.

7 Q. And have you had a chance to see this video prior to today?

8 A. Yes, I have had a chance to see it.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. If we could just play this, finish this out

10 slowly so you can get an idea of how much of the faces we can see.

11 Q. From the clip it just finished up with, were you able to get a

12 good look at both these officers?

13 A. I was able to see them well before and now. So I know that they

14 were two officers -- military policemen, not officers, from the military

15 police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. That's the end of the videos for now.

17 And if I could get some assistance from the usher, I'd like to show you if

18 you could put this on the ELMO, it's marked P86. It's an aerial image of

19 Bratunac that the witness has had a chance to previously mark. Counsel

20 has been provided with a copy of that. The Court should have copies also.

21 If you could put that on the ELMO, especially the parts where you can see

22 handwriting on it.

23 I guess we're not having much luck with the ELMO.

24 Q. You've already written on this document. Can you explain to us

25 what writing you've done on this document? I think everyone should have

Page 1792

1 it in front of them. Just sort of describe the writing and what you've

2 highlighted.

3 A. I marked on this photograph the offices of the Bratunac Brigade,

4 that is, the building of Kaolin. And I marked with an arrow where those

5 offices were. I also marked with a circle the building in which the

6 military police of the Bratunac Brigade, the platoon, was housed. Also, I

7 marked with a circle the apartment block where Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic's

8 apartment was. And also, I encircled the Fontana Hotel, marking with an

9 arrow which building it is on this shot.

10 And I also put my signature and the date when I marked it.

11 Q. Okay. If we could look at the next exhibit, P87, which is another

12 aerial image that you've already marked which everyone should have. Can

13 you again describe what that is that you've marked.

14 A. Yes. On this image, I have also marked and written down the names

15 of the buildings and indicated with arrows which the buildings are.

16 Number 1 is the Vuk Karadzic elementary school, the building that I

17 identified. Then next to it is the gym which belonged to that same Vuk

18 Karadzic school. Then the building known as the hangar. And at the end,

19 the building that I identified as the secondary school centre, the old

20 secondary school, Djuro Pucar Stari. And again, the date and my signature

21 has been affixed.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Mr. McCLOSKEY: The next document that I have now, we will be very

24 nice to have the ELMO for this, Your Honour, and perhaps we should take

25 some kind of a break. I hate to ask that, but these are now military

Page 1793

1 documents that -- or we could just standby, too, and hope...

2 JUDGE LIU: Maybe we could break for 10 minutes.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

4 --- Break taken at 1.14 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I hope that ELMO is okay. And we might sit a

7 little bit longer to make up the time we lost.

8 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a few documents

10 to ask the witness about. And most of these documents I will not be

11 tendering through this witness because they will involve providing

12 additional authentication and foundation through witnesses that, as you're

13 aware and counsel is aware, to be scheduled in the future. But given the

14 unique situation that we have an accused testifying, I will tie this up

15 later and not offer them into evidence until they have been fully tied up.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. And after we hear the

17 cross-examination, we will ask you to inform us what kind of documents you

18 are going to tender through this witness.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. The first document I want to show this

20 witness is a record of an intercept communication intercepted by the

21 Bosnian Muslim army. Excuse me --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, --

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: By the Bosnian Muslim security services.

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey.

25 Yes.

Page 1794

1 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I would like to voice an objection to

2 this line of questioning at this point. In the common-law system, which

3 Peter McCloskey and Mr. Karnavas are familiar with, and I recognise how

4 familiar you are with it, we have something called taking the witness on

5 voir dire, which means that the opposing counsel gets to question him

6 about his expertise and his participation and whether he is qualified to

7 answer this line of questioning. I would ask the Court to allow me to ask

8 a few questions of Mr. Nikolic just to lay the foundation to see if he's

9 qualified to answer these. It's our belief that he did not participate in

10 any of these intercepts. He's not a communications expert, and we don't

11 believe he has the expertise to offer the opinion of whether he believes

12 that these intercepts are genuine or not.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, I have to tell you that we are not

14 adopting strictly the common-law system. In my legal system, all the

15 documents is admissible at least during the proceedings, then the Judge

16 will make his findings, our decisions, how much weight he is going to put

17 on these documents.

18 Secondly, we do not even know what kind of documents that

19 Mr. McCloskey will put to this witness. Let us go along this line. And

20 if you have opportunities, of course, you are free to raise it after the

21 question is asked or after the answer is given. Is that fair enough?

22 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. We were provided the documents

23 ahead of time, that's why I know what his line of questioning is before he

24 presents them. But as long as we will be able to challenge the

25 qualifications of this witness at some other time, I would -- I wanted to

Page 1795

1 lodge our running objection to his qualifications to answer these

2 questions.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. And the -- I believe that

4 you have the full opportunity to do so also in the cross-examination.

5 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Again, this intercept is from the State Security Services of the

9 Bosnian Muslim government dated 12 July, 1995. And from the heading, it

10 appears to be between a Krstic and a Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic.

11 And Mr. Nikolic, based on just a quick reading of the substance of

12 this, and I don't want you to read it out loud, and knowing that it's from

13 12 July at 0735 hours, can you tell me who you believe Lieutenant-Colonel

14 Krsmanovic is, just briefly. And as we know, some of these people you may

15 have talked about before.

16 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MS. SINATRA: I do object to Mr. McCloskey testifying from the

19 document. He's reading from the document. He hasn't had the witness

20 identify the names that are present on it. He's asking him who these

21 people are, and the person hasn't identified -- the witness has not

22 identified these people, so Mr. McCloskey is in reality testifying.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think Mr. McCloskey is just asking a very

24 simple question to this witness. And to save time, and since this

25 document is not going to be tendered by this witness, I believe that kind

Page 1796

1 of procedure is allowed. And by that way, to my understanding that

2 Mr. Stojanovic will deal with this witness. If the Defence counsel for

3 Mr. Jokic have some objections, would you please be kind enough to cover

4 your idea to the counsel who is particularly dealing with this witness and

5 to raise it to the attention to the Court.

6 You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.


8 Q. Who do you think Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic is in this

9 conversation?

10 A. I think that Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic who is mentioned in

11 this conversations the lieutenant-colonel from the command of the Drina

12 Corps, and that he was -- and that there was a chief of the transportation

13 service from the command of the Drina Corps.

14 Q. And how about the person identified as Krstic?

15 A. Again, on the basis of what I see here and what is written here, I

16 think that this is General Krstic from the command of the Drina Corps.

17 Q. And what in particular do you think they're talking about?

18 A. On the basis of this text that I have read now, they are talking

19 about buses which need to be provided from these mentioned municipalities

20 and the places mentioned where those buses should come to. And the

21 specific number is mentioned of 50 buses. And their destination, their

22 final destination being the stadium in Bratunac.

23 Q. Were there any Bratunac Brigade officers that were working with

24 Krsmanovic in -- related to buses or vehicles coming in to Bratunac on 12

25 July?

Page 1797

1 A. Yes. From the Bratunac Brigade in connection with the arrival of

2 these buses, and other matters linked to the buses, as far as I know or

3 what I know for certain is that the assistant commander of the Bratunac

4 Brigade for logistics was involved, that is Major Dragoslav Trisic. And I

5 also know that Loncarevic, Pavle, and Mr. Stevic, I don't know his first

6 name, were also involved. These are the things that I can remember.

7 But mainly, Dragoslav Trisic and Pavle Loncarevic.

8 Q. And what were these buses used for on 12 July?

9 A. These buses were used on the 12th of July to transport the

10 civilians and the population in general from Potocari to Kladanj.

11 Q. Were they used to transport Muslim men in the Potocari crowd to

12 Bratunac?

13 A. Yes. Yes, the same buses were used for those purposes as well.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could ask the usher, we can go to the next

15 exhibit. She may need to stay there because I can see that the screen

16 unfortunately doesn't fit the page, and she may need to act as the person

17 to direct this operation.

18 This is 65 ter number 925. And for the record, it's from the

19 collection from 13 July, 1995, at 0705 hours. This is a Bosnian Muslim

20 army intercept.

21 Q. And Mr. Nikolic, if I could ask you to just take a look at it. I

22 know you've seen this before. And I'm just going to go down this

23 intercept, so if we could just follow it a little bit and I'll ask you

24 some questions. It starts out with: "Give me Nikolic." And goes on,

25 someone says: "Nikolic hasn't arrived yet." Who do you think the Nikolic

Page 1798

1 is they're talking about?

2 A. What I can infer from this document is that the reference is to

3 me, Momir Nikolic, chief of the intelligence and security organ of the

4 Bratunac Brigade.

5 Q. And can you tell from this document where this call is coming in

6 to?

7 A. Just a moment, please. I need to look at the beginning. On the

8 basis of what I can see from this document, the call is from the corps

9 command, the command of the Drina Corps. So a general is calling. The

10 link is established through the switchboard, and on the line is Jankovic

11 and a general from the command of the Drina Corps.

12 Q. And can you -- who do you believe this Jankovic is?

13 A. It can be seen that this is Mirko Jankovic who, in those days, was

14 commander of the military police platoon and who that night stood in for

15 me. He acted as the operations officer on duty in the Bratunac Brigade.

16 Q. So when it says: "Here's police commander Jankovic," you believe

17 that's Mirko Jankovic, the commander of the military police platoon of the

18 Bratunac Brigade?

19 A. Yes, that's what I think.

20 Q. And where would Mirko Jankovic be speaking from as he's taking

21 part in this conversation?

22 A. Mirko Jankovic was speaking from the operations room.

23 Q. Of where?

24 A. From the operations room at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

25 Q. And can you identify from anything in this document who he's

Page 1799

1 speaking to?

2 A. May I just have a minute to look through this and find the right

3 sentence.

4 On the basis of this sentence here towards the end of this

5 conversation: "Where is my department commander?", on the basis of this,

6 I can identify that this is General Zivanovic because General Zivanovic's

7 cousin was one of the commanders of the military police platoon in the

8 Bratunac Brigade.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, for the record - and I will provide

10 the booth with the official translations in the future. We may not have

11 given them to them. But there's an important word that was interpreted as

12 "department commander." And in fact, as you can see from the second page

13 referred to by Mr. Nikolic, that has been translated into English as

14 "squad commander."

15 Q. And what are General Zivanovic and Mirko Jankovic talking about in

16 this conversation? And let me just -- I'll try to be helpful.

17 Specifically on the first page --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. I

20 just thought this was a good opportunity to clarify because of our

21 previous intervention. This is likely to happen during the testimony of

22 our next witness. The essential issue at stake in Dragan Jokic's Defence

23 is the truthfulness, authenticity, and quality of the intercepts. Today,

24 we have Momir Nikolic's testimony as to the contents of this conversation,

25 intercepted conversation. But we have not been given an answer as to

Page 1800

1 whether this witness considers the conversation as authentic, whether this

2 conversation could have taken place at all.

3 Does he believe that any such conversation ever took place at all?

4 And then after that, who took part in the conversation? If he considers

5 the conversation as authentic and if he thinks this represents an actual

6 conversation between the MUP and the BH army representatives, that's the

7 essence of our objection. We would like to pose the following question:

8 These intercepts, do they qualify as proof, are they really authentic?

9 The essential point is that we still haven't listened to all of the

10 Prosecutor's witnesses who worked as operators manning switchboards who

11 connected these calls or listened in on these calls. Thank you very much,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think this is another

14 question, and I believe that the Prosecution will call other witnesses to

15 testify to that effect. But I have some problem with the question put to

16 this witness by Mr. McCloskey. He asked "What are General Zivanovic and

17 Jankovic talking about in this conversation?" I don't think this is the

18 right question to put to this witness since this witness was not present

19 at that time. We already know that he was not in when he was asked. All

20 he could answer is from this document. So it's useless for us. We cannot

21 be helped by his answer at all.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this particular witness should be

23 able to provide this Chamber with his opinion regarding the terms, the

24 phrases, the numbers, the information in this document. For example,

25 my -- sorry.

Page 1801

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please. Yes, please continue.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: For example, I was going to narrow the question

3 down to, at this point, on July 12th when the General says: "How many

4 vehicles arrived so far and how many Turks have to be transferred?" My

5 question would be if General Zivanovic and Mirko Jankovic are talking

6 about the transfer of Turks on the morning of 12 July, what in your

7 opinion would they be talking about?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, this question is allowed, to the specific words

9 of "the Turks." But not on the whole contents.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I thought I might save

11 time by that question, but I realised that that wasn't going to save time.

12 So I went for the particular one.

13 Q. Mr. Nikolic, the question from General Zivanovic saying "how many

14 vehicles have arrived so far and how many Turks have to be transferred,"

15 first question, in the context of this, what would "Turks" mean?

16 A. In this context, it would mean that General Zivanovic was asking

17 about the Muslims in Potocari.

18 Q. Okay. And then the answer: "About one third of them have

19 probably been transferred, about as many there are have arrived now. One

20 third have been transferred. Around 70 vehicles have left, and around..."

21 By the morning of 13 July at this time, 0705 hours, do you know

22 how many of the Muslim civilians in Potocari had been transferred out of

23 Potocari at this time?

24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, all I can say is what I knew and what I saw. This

25 number was higher. On the 12th, more than one half of the Muslims present

Page 1802

1 in Potocari had already been transferred. And according to my estimate,

2 this should amount to about 15.000. I think this is Mirko Jankovic's

3 assessment, and I cannot comment on that. What I know I think is a more

4 accurate estimate than the one we're looking at here.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. And on the second page in the English, the

6 General asks: "Where's Nikolic?" And the response is: "Nikolic went

7 home this morning at half past 3.00." Is that true? Had you gone home at

8 half past 3.00 that morning?

9 A. Yes, yes. That morning, I left at about 3.00, maybe half past

10 3.00. Thereabouts.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. I don't have any other questions on that

12 particular intercept.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to 65 ter number 259. It's a type

14 listing of Bosnian bus companies, letters, and then amounts in litres.

15 And Your Honours, for foundational purposes, we will show that this, what

16 is a handwritten document in the B/C/S which I hope you have a copy of,

17 was obtained in a search warrant of the Bratunac Brigade several years

18 ago. And I merely want to ask this witness:

19 Q. In looking at these handwritten notes in the Bosnian, which are

20 dated 12 -- well, question mark 12 July, 1995, at 2100 hours," in your

21 opinion, what is this a reference to?

22 A. On the basis of what I can see in this document, this could be a

23 reference to buses used for transferring civilians from Potocari. What

24 this document indicates in the first column on the left-hand side of the

25 page is where the buses come from, from which companies, the buses used

Page 1803

1 for the transport of Muslims, their registration plate numbers, Zvornik,

2 Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and so on. And in the last column, I see the number

3 of litres used for running those buses. This is a reference to the buses

4 used for the evacuation from Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995.

5 Q. Okay. On the third page of the English document, there's a list

6 of actual names. In your opinion -- there's some names and a similar sort

7 of list. Briefly, what in your opinion are these names?

8 A. This document is also dated the 12th of July, 1995. The content

9 of the document is similar to the previous one. In addition, here we have

10 a list of names and certain makes, types of trucks, the amounts of fuel

11 expended. And especially in relation to the previous document, on the

12 left-hand side of the document the way I'm looking, it says Vihor, 13th of

13 July." This might mean the following: Number 18, 19, 20, and 22, those

14 were the drivers, the Vihor drivers. But it could also mean something

15 else. It could mean that these buses took their fuel from the petrol

16 station that was within the compound of the Bratunac Transport Company

17 which owned its own petrol station within its premises.

18 Q. Setting aside this document now, from your own personal knowledge,

19 do you know where the fuel that was provided for the vehicles that

20 transported the Muslims on these days, 12th, 13th, and 14th, what petrol

21 stations they came from?

22 A. I don't think I've understood your question. I'm sorry. Can you

23 please repeat the question.

24 Q. What petrol stations did the fuel for the buses come from? Or I

25 should say where did the fuel for the buses come from?

Page 1804

1 A. I really don't know where the fuel came from, from which petrol

2 station specifically. I can't say. The interpretation I'm getting is

3 you're asking me which petrol station did the fuel come from. I don't

4 know that. But I do know that fuel was taken at the petrol station in

5 Bratunac, fuel for the buses. That's what I know. The buses got their

6 fuel at the petrol station in Bratunac. They filled up there. Another

7 thing I know about is that for a certain period of time, fuel was being

8 taken from the petrol station owned by the Bratunac Autotransport Company.

9 Q. Do you know if any members of the Bratunac Brigade were involved

10 in the distributing of fuel for the buses that transported Muslims on the

11 12th, 13th, or 14th of July?

12 A. Yes. Major Dragoslav Trisic personally was involved in securing

13 the fuel and in the distribution of fuel for the buses and trucks used

14 during the transport on the 12th and the 13th.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. If we could go to the next exhibit, 65 ter

16 number 264. And in the Bosnian language, the originals are handwritten

17 notes, and we have a typed version for the English. If we could put the

18 English on the ELMO.

19 Q. Mr. Nikolic, could you just again familiarise yourself with these

20 handwritten notes. Do you know what they are?

21 A. What I see in front of me are notes on the interrogation of

22 Mr. Resid Sinanovic. The next thing in this document that I can see is a

23 note concerning Nazif Avdic, and Munib Delic, if my reading it correct.

24 These are notes concerning the interrogation of prisoners during this

25 period of time at the Bratunac Brigade.

Page 1805

1 Q. Is this Resid Sinanovic the same one that you had delivered to the

2 military police offices that you've testified earlier about?

3 A. Yes, yes. It's Resid Sinanovic, son of Rahman, whom I personally

4 brought in and handed him over to Zlatan Celanovic at the military police

5 headquarters.

6 Q. Do you know who wrote those handwritten notes regarding

7 Resid Sinanovic and the other Muslims?

8 A. All I can say is that I recognise the handwriting of Zlatan

9 Celanovic.

10 Q. Do you know what happened to Resid Sinanovic?

11 A. All I can say is that following the interrogation of

12 Resid Sinanovic at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, he was visited by a

13 number of people, his friends, in the premises of the military police

14 following which he was transferred to the Vuk Karadzic elementary school

15 and following those visits. After that, I have further information he was

16 transferred along with everyone else to Zvornik. And as far as I know,

17 based on my information, he was shot. He's no longer alive, and neither

18 are any of the other people who were taken there.

19 Q. Can you describe to us where you got your information about what

20 happened to him from the time you delivered him to the time he was shot?

21 A. I was asking questions about this specific case. There was a lot

22 of speculation surrounding the fate of Mr. Resid Sinanovic. And some

23 people provided this information.

24 Q. Do you have any specific information on the fate of the other

25 people that are mentioned here, Nazif Avdic, Munib Dedic, Aziz Husic,

Page 1806

1 Harudin Begzadic?

2 A. I don't have any information on these people, no additional

3 information. Not any kind of information, in fact. When I looked at this

4 document, it's the first I found out of their presence at the military

5 police building in Bratunac. I knew about Sinanovic, but as for the rest

6 of them I had no idea. And even now, I don't know what became of those

7 individuals.

8 Q. All right. If we could go to the next document, 65 ter number

9 235. And if you could just briefly tell us, having looked at this, this

10 is a one-page piece of paper now. Can you tell us what that is and where

11 it comes from.

12 A. What I'm looking at right now is a daily report. This is a daily

13 report from the Bratunac Brigade military police platoon dated the 13th of

14 July, 1995. This document says who did what as far as the military police

15 platoon members were concerned on that particular day.

16 Q. Is this document part of a larger collection, or is it an

17 individual document as far as you know?

18 A. I know that the military police platoon, the duty officer of the

19 military police platoon would write a report like this on a daily basis.

20 Q. What kind of record-keeping was this material kept in?

21 A. This was kept in the files of the military police platoon in their

22 room.

23 Q. Was there a logbook, or were these in individual files as far as

24 you recall?

25 A. As far as I know, there was a book made like this where reports

Page 1807

1 were entered every day, the military police reports.

2 Q. All right. Let me just ask you if we could look at that first

3 line: "The police were engaged in securing the UNHCR and the surrender of

4 the Muslim people from Srebrenica in Zuti Most to the Serb soldiers in

5 Bratunac." What does that reference to UNHCR mean as far as you know?

6 A. In my opinion, I think this is a mistaken definition of the forces

7 of DutchBat. Police were engaged in securing the UNHCR. I don't think

8 that's correct. I think the police were engaged in securing members of

9 UNPROFOR, which is perfectly correct. And I know all the detail

10 surrounding that operation. That's one thing. So instead of UNHCR, it

11 should say "members of DutchBat." The surrender of the Muslim people from

12 Srebrenica in Zuti Most to the Serb soldiers in Bratunac, I think this

13 makes little sense. It is true there was a checkpoint on Zuti Most, the

14 yellow bridge, and whether they just considered passing through the

15 checkpoint would have implied the surrender of Muslims, in that case, this

16 makes sense. But certainly there was no surrender of anyone to anyone

17 else that was being carried out on Zuti Most, the yellow bridge. Not to

18 my knowledge.

19 Q. Does the other information in this document appear to make sense,

20 again, aside from the UNHCR references?

21 A. Yes. I can go item by item. "Some of the police forces secured

22 the sick and wounded in the clinic," yes, that was true. "Night duty in

23 Fontana and the UNHCR," that makes sense, that was also part of their

24 duties. Securing the commander, Ratko Mladic, that, as well. Securing

25 the UNHCR. Again, that's a mistake. We're not talking about the UNHCR.

Page 1808

1 We're talking about the DutchBat people at the school. And the remaining

2 items are regular duties, regular service at the bridge. So the rest of

3 the document seems perfectly accurate.

4 Q. Do you know where General Mladic spent the night, the night of the

5 12/13 July?

6 A. I don't know exactly where he spent that night. But I can tell

7 you two things that would have been the only two possible things. Here,

8 where it says "securing the commander, Ratko Mladic" --

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Karnavas.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I would like to object at this point. He was asked

12 a question, Where did General Mladic spend the night. He indicated he

13 didn't know. Now if Mr. McCloskey wishes to pose another question to

14 elicit some additional information, that's fine. But now we have the

15 witness taking control over the line of questioning and determining what

16 he's going to testify to.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we are very interested to hear

18 what the witness is going to tell us. It may be related to the

19 whereabouts of Mr. Mladic at that time.

20 Witness, you may proceed.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

22 I'm positive that throughout that period of time, while General

23 Mladic was staying in the territory of Bratunac and Srebrenica

24 Municipalities, his security was provided by members of the military

25 police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade. This whole time, there was only

Page 1809

1 one squad that was in charge of his personal security. Furthermore, I

2 also know that after General Mladic had left Bratunac, he took the squad

3 along with him to provide his personal security on the way to Zepa.

4 Therefore, if the operations duty officer of the military police

5 wrote "security for General Ratko Mladic," all I can add is the following:

6 It's quite possible that what they wrote down was the involvement of that

7 particular squad that was providing his personal security throughout this

8 period of time and after he left. That's all I can say concerning this

9 part of the document.


11 Q. Just to go back to the aerial image of Bratunac, and I apologise,

12 this was P86, as well as circling the Bratunac Brigade headquarters and

13 the building for the military police, did you circle the apartment block

14 where your commander Blagojevic lived during this time?

15 A. As far as I can remember, I did encircle the apartment blocks

16 where Commander Blagojevic lived. Actually, in one of those buildings. I

17 can't tell you exactly which one.

18 Q. Thank you for that.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we can continue. I apologise that

20 we're not through. We have some more documents. But we should be able to

21 plod along.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, how long do you think you could use to finish

23 those documents?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe half an hour.

25 JUDGE LIU: We going to continue or are we going to break. Let me

Page 1810

1 consult with the Court Deputy.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I was told that some people are

4 working very hard in this case, I mean those interpreters, court

5 reporters. Some of them had their breakfast at 7.00. Now it's 2.15.

6 It's very late. From the humanitarian point of view, we need a break.

7 Maybe we could come back at 4.00 and continue, to finish the last part.

8 Because I really want to have the whole day for Mr. Karnavas to streamline

9 his cross-examination. We believe it's worth to have the whole period of

10 time. So we'll continue at 4.00. But I have to tell you that I have some

11 other engagement this afternoon, so I am very sorry that I could not be

12 here in the afternoon's hearing. And Judge Vassylenko and Judge Argibay

13 will continue the hearing.

14 So we'll resume -- well, we'll resume at 4.00.

15 MS. SINATRA: May I just say one thing, Your Honour. It will take

16 less than one minute.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MS. SINATRA: I don't know if Your Honours have noticed that we

19 have an empty chair here. But due to the fact that the Registry refused

20 to pay for an interpreter for communications between counsel and

21 co-counsel, I just wanted to state that the rights of Mr. Jokic under

22 Article 20 and 21 are being seriously violated at this point. The

23 Registry refuses to pay for an interpreter for us to speak to each other

24 which makes it difficult when we're trying to present the best defence for

25 Mr. Jokic. Thank you.

Page 1811

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think you've raised this issue

2 many times. Certainly I will look into this matter by consulting with the

3 Registrar.

4 So we'll resume at 4.00.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 2.20 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Good afternoon to everybody. As Judge Liu is

8 unable to continue sitting after the break for the reasons of the Tribunal

9 business, it is in the interest of justice for Judge Argibay and I to

10 continue sitting in absence of Judge Liu under Rule 15 bis. Any objection

11 to these proceedings?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Please, Mr. McCloskey, the floor is yours. You

15 may continue. I hope you finish today.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I hope so, too. We'll try hard, Your Honour.

17 Q. Going to 65 ter number 235, a Bratunac Brigade military police log

18 entry for 14/15 July 1995. We are going to need the registry to help with

19 the documents. I hope the ELMO is working. We can put the English on the

20 ELMO and provide the B/C/S to the witness.

21 Mr. Nikolic, this says: "The police were engaged in the escort of

22 Muslim refugees." What do you think that means?

23 A. On the basis of this document that I have in front of me, I see

24 that the date is the 14th to the 15th of July, 1995. And it is a daily

25 report. "The police was engaged in escorting Muslim refugees." So this

Page 1812

1 refers to the participation of the police from the Bratunac Brigade

2 military police platoon in escorting the convoy that went on the 14th

3 towards Zvornik.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. If we could go to the next exhibit, 65 ter 235

5 again, but the same Bratunac Brigade log sheet from the military police

6 dated 15 July, 1995. It states: "The police worked on searching and

7 combing the area as well as apprehending the Muslims found hiding in the

8 area." Do you know anything about this statement, about the substance

9 it's referring to?

10 A. I really am not able to confirm what it says in this daily report,

11 especially the sentence "the police worked on searching and combing the

12 area as well as apprehending the Muslim found hiding in the area." So I'm

13 unable to tell you exactly what this meant. I am not aware of this

14 involvement of the police. I don't know anything about it.

15 Q. Okay. We'll go to the next one. 65 ter 235, same Bratunac

16 Brigade military police log dated 17 July, 1995. And referring you to the

17 part where it says: "One police patrol remained in Pilica to guard the

18 Muslims." Did you know about that?

19 A. Yes, I knew that a police patrol which was escorting the convoy

20 stayed behind in Pilica. And I was informed about by the police

21 commander, Mirko Jankovic, about this patrol that remained in Zvornik, or

22 rather in the territory of Zvornik.

23 Q. And you testified about that previously today. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And if you can just remind us again, how many military police

Page 1813

1 officers would have been in a patrol?

2 A. I know that a police patrol usually or as a rule consists of two

3 to three policemen.

4 Q. Okay. Now, before we get to the next document, I want to ask

5 you -- in fact, Madam Registrar, you might want to sit down for a minute.

6 Can you tell us what a daily combat report is in a brigade.

7 A. A regular daily combat report is a report which is written every

8 day, usually by the operations officer on duty. So the combat report

9 contains reports on certain matters that the unit is reporting about. In

10 this case, the Bratunac Brigade. I also know with certainty that a combat

11 report from the Bratunac Brigade contained clearly defined points that

12 were ordered by the command of the Drina Corps with reference to which

13 daily reports were sent; that is, that daily combat report would be

14 compiled on the basis of those points.

15 Q. And did this report go out daily under anyone's name?

16 A. Yes. Every day, a daily report would be sent covering various

17 points. And as a rule, that daily report would be signed by the unit

18 commander or the brigade commander.

19 Q. What was the brigade commander's responsibility in -- regarding

20 the information in a daily combat report?

21 A. The responsibility of the commander would be, if he's present in

22 the brigade before the daily combat report is dispatched, to review the

23 report, to approve it, approve its contents, make any changes, or approve

24 it as a whole or amend the contents of that report.

25 Q. In the various documents that you've reviewed for this case, were

Page 1814

1 you ever able to make any conclusive opinion regarding identifying

2 Mr. Blagojevic's handwriting or signature?

3 A. I really was unable to establish that with certainty because there

4 are several similar handwritings of officers from the brigade. So I

5 didn't dare guess, and I was not certain of those handwritings. There

6 were some that looked like his handwriting, but I did not confirm

7 conclusively his signature on any single document, or his handwriting.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to document 65 ter number 254.

9 It's an 11 July, 1995, daily combat report from the Bratunac Brigade.

10 Q. Just want to refer you to number 2 of this report. It says: "Our

11 forces responded to the attacks of the Turks and inflicted losses on

12 them." This term "Turks," what does that mean?

13 A. This term relates to the Muslims, the Muslims of Srebrenica in

14 this particular case. And I said that earlier on, Turks or Poturice? Are

15 derogatory terms used for Muslims in that period during the war and when

16 this report was written.

17 Q. Where do these daily combat reports go each day?

18 A. Daily combat reports would be sent to the corps command, that is,

19 the superior command. In this case, the command of the Drina Corps.

20 Q. All right. If we could go to 65 ter 257, it's a document dated 12

21 July, 1995, from the Bratunac Brigade listed "urgent" to the command of

22 the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade under the name of Vidoje Blagojevic.

23 And I will refer you to this brief statement: "Please inform us

24 by 2400 hours at the latest where your forces are deployed on the left

25 flank in relation to us, regarding the gap between us and the passage of

Page 1815

1 Poturice." What does this term Poturice mean?

2 A. It was a name used for Muslims. In this case, those who were

3 pulling out in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

4 Q. What is connoted by this particular reference to Muslims? What

5 kind of reference is this?

6 A. In this specific case, a document dated the 12th of July, the

7 reference is to Muslim forces and the Muslim column which was moving via

8 Ravni Buljim, because it can't be anything else. This space or gap that

9 was not covered; that is, the space between our brigade, the

10 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade and the Milici Brigade, or between the

11 4th Battalion of -- the battalion that was subordinated to our brigade and

12 the left flank of the Zvornik Brigade in that area, Ravni Buljim. I think

13 that the trig number is 820 as far as I can remember. There was an area

14 there that was not covered, an area between our unit and the forces of the

15 Zvornik Brigade.

16 Q. What is the literal meaning of this term "Poturice"?

17 A. I can give you my interpretation and opinion. The word

18 "Poturice" in my understanding are Muslims who at some point in time, or

19 rather, Serbs who converted to Turks, who converted to Islam and people

20 who changed their religion are described as "Poturice." That's my

21 understanding of this term.

22 Q. Is there any connotation to this term, whether negative, positive,

23 or neutral?

24 A. Well, in this context, it has certainly a negative connotation.

25 Q. If we could go to the next document, 65 ter 256, a 12 July, 1995,

Page 1816

1 report from the command of the Bratunac Brigade entitled "To the

2 Drina Corps command, attention Major Golic," authored by or under the name

3 of Captain Pecanac. Where was this document sent from?

4 A. By looking at the document, the heading of this document, it seems

5 that the document was sent from the command of the

6 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, strictly confidential number, the

7 number that's there, and the date is the 12th of July, 1995.

8 Q. Now, you've already told you who you believe Captain Pecanac is.

9 I believe you said he was a main staff officer. Can you remind us again,

10 did you actually ever see him in the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

11 A. No, I never saw Captain Pecanac at the Bratunac Brigade command.

12 But I do know the man personally. I know who he is.

13 Q. All right. Going to 65 ter 255, from the command of the

14 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade dated 12 July titled a "Daily combat

15 report" under the name of Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic. Referring you to

16 number 7: "The transport of the Turkish population (Muslim refugees) from

17 the village of Potocari toward Kladanj is in progress. A large number

18 (10.000) of refugees are expected to be transported from Potocari to

19 Kladanj."

20 What process -- what does this paragraph refer to?

21 A. This paragraph refers to the transport of the Muslim population

22 from the village of Potocari to Kladanj on -- there's no date here. On

23 the 12th of July, 1995.

24 Q. Is that the process that you've described your involvement in?

25 A. Yes. Precisely. This is the process, rather, the operation that

Page 1817

1 began on the 12th of July, 1995. I was involved in the way I have already

2 described.

3 Q. Is there any connotation one way or another to this reference to

4 "the Turkish population"?

5 A. More or less the same as the previous thing I explained.

6 "Turkish population," the term usually referred to the Muslim population

7 as stated in the brackets here. Same explanation applies as for the

8 previous term "Turks."

9 Q. Okay. I refer now to 65 ter number 49, a document dated 12 July.

10 It's a dispatch by -- under the name of chief of the CJB, Dragomir Vasic.

11 If you put the English on the -- let me not forget the B/C/S version.

12 There may be two B/C/S versions.

13 You had referred earlier in your testimony to a document that

14 helped refresh your recollection related to meetings on the days of the

15 12th and 13th of July. Is this the document you were referring to?

16 A. Yes. This is a document dated the 12th of July, 1995. Under

17 item 2, it states that at 8.00, a meeting was held at the Bratunac Brigade

18 with General Mladic and General Krstic in attendance at which tasks were

19 assigned to all those involved. And that's what I talked about during my

20 testimony.

21 Q. Sir, do you have anything to add to what you've already testified

22 to after being able to look at this document?

23 A. I've nothing to add. I only wish to confirm that my doubt

24 concerning the holding of the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters

25 on the 12th at 8.00 in the morning has just been dispelled.

Page 1818

1 Q. All right. Now, let's go to 65 ter document number 51, which is a

2 13 July, 1995, Ministry of the Interior document to the cabinet or the

3 minister in Pale, again, under the name of Dragomir Vasic. And if you

4 could look -- let's start with paragraph 1 which says: "Evacuation of the

5 remaining civilian population from Srebrenica in the buses towards

6 Kladanj, some 15.000. We are short 10 tonnes of D2, and we need it

7 urgently. We urgently need 10 tonnes of petrol."

8 Is that a reference to the evacuation on 13 July that you've

9 already described?

10 A. Yes, that's precisely what this refers to.

11 Q. Paragraph 2: "Liquidation of about 8.000 Muslim soldiers whom we

12 blocked in the woods around Konjevic Polje. Fights are resuming. These

13 tasks are being done solely by the MUP units." Can you tell us first of

14 all, that first sentence, "liquidation of about 8.000 Muslim soldiers,"

15 what does that mean?

16 A. I'll give you my opinion on this sentence. In my opinion, this

17 means that the position of these, as they say "8.000 Muslim soldiers" had

18 been discovered. These Muslims were blocked, and there was fighting going

19 on. In this context, this report claims that only MUP units took part in

20 the operation. I wouldn't interpret this in the light of classic killing.

21 This was simply an operation where they were blocked. There was fighting

22 going on, and there was an attempt to destroy those Muslim soldiers.

23 That's my explanation.

24 Q. Is that what the term "liquidation" means in your language in this

25 context?

Page 1819

1 A. Mm, usually, yes. In this context, it can be interpreted this

2 way. And that's certainly my interpretation. Obviously you can have a

3 different interpretation, too, but in this specific context that's how I

4 see the meaning of the word as used.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. McCloskey, excuse me. What term is used in

7 B/C/S, in the document in B/C/S?


9 Q. Can you tell us --

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Can you tell us the term "liquidation," can you just say the word

12 in B/C/S so that we can all hear it. Say it maybe loudly because I know

13 it will get translated.

14 A. In B/C/S, Likvidacija. Should I explain this or should I just

15 simply say the word?

16 Q. You can explain it.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: This term is used in the documents which is

18 before you, yes or no?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes.



22 Q. Now, if we could go to a document dated 13 July, 1995, from the

23 main staff of the VRS intelligence sector to the command of the

24 Drina Corps. And I would -- you are provided with the B/C/S

25 translations -- excuse me, the B/C/S handwritten and typed version. Is

Page 1820

1 that correct?

2 A. I think there's a page missing here.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry, Mr. McCloskey, I'm sorry to interrupt. Do

4 you have a 65 ter number for that document?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. It's 207.



8 Q. Well, let's just use what we've got, and we'll see if there's

9 another page. But if you could just take a look at this, and can you read

10 for us the first heading starting with "IKM."

11 If you can see it in the typed version that you have in B/C/S.

12 A. Just a minute, please. Let me have a look, first.

13 The only thing I can see here is IKM of the Drina Corps, Bratunac

14 starts at the very beginning of the document, of the printed document.

15 Q. Okay. Where was the B/C/S printed document you have sent from?

16 A. It was sent from the command of the Bratunac Brigade on the 13th

17 of July, 1995.

18 Q. And who authored this document?

19 A. The author of this document is Colonel Radislav Jankovic.

20 Q. This is the main staff colonel you've already described who came

21 in and shared an office with you for a while?

22 A. Yes, yes, that's the colonel.

23 Q. Now, if we could go to 65 ter number 269. And before we get to

24 that, before you're given that document, Madam Registrar, before you give

25 that to him -- ma'am, before you give that to him. I just want to ask him

Page 1821

1 some general questions.

2 Is there a particular manner in which a commander will sign a

3 formal document or an order?

4 A. Will you please repeat the question for me. And --

5 Q. Is there some kind of a proper procedure by which a commander

6 would sign a document such as an order that was to be sent out to the

7 command or other units? How is that normally done?

8 A. Well, it's a perfectly normal procedure for the commander to write

9 an order whenever he's present. He's the only one who can write orders to

10 subordinate units. He writes it up, he types it up, and he personally

11 signs it. And the document is stamped. And if it's bound to be sent to

12 subordinate units, it is usually filed. And after that, it is forwarded

13 to subordinate units.

14 Q. Now, when an order is being signed under the name of the commander

15 but by someone else, is that noted in the document?

16 A. Yes. Normally documents signed by others from the brigade

17 command, they usually place the word "for" in front of the name, which

18 means that the document was signed on behalf of the commander by someone

19 standing in for him or by whoever was authorised to do so.

20 Q. And the word in B/C/S for "for" is "za," Z-A. Is that right?

21 A. Precisely.

22 Q. Now, this document, 65 ter 269, 15 July, 1995, replacement of

23 temporary personnel order. If you could just take a look at the B/C/S

24 version of that, and just tell us very briefly what kind of an order

25 this -- what this order is, what this is about.

Page 1822

1 A. This is an order related to the establishment of a command for an

2 infantry battalion where the commander is appointed as well as the entire

3 command structure of the battalion. Furthermore, in item 2, the order is

4 to set up an infantry company according to the following criteria:

5 Company command, and then support crew for an 82-millimetre mortar. All

6 in all, this order relates to the setting up of that unit, the unit that

7 was supposed to be sent down the Bratunac/Srebrenica Road to Trnovo.

8 That's what I can tell from looking at this document.

9 Q. Can you tell us briefly what the -- what the brigade command

10 regularly did in terms of sending units to the Trnovo or Sarajevo front of

11 this war, just so we can get this document into context.

12 A. Well, the commander would define in his order which unit of which

13 rank was to be reinforced from which other units with how many soldiers.

14 He would define the organisational structure of the unit to be sent or

15 assigned to any task. That's the essence of the order.

16 Further, in almost every order of this same kind, the commander

17 would appoint someone as the responsible person for carrying out the

18 order, which you can see in this document. Chief of the brigade staff was

19 made responsible for the carrying out of this particular task. Briefly,

20 that's what I can tell you about the nature of this document.

21 Q. Did the Bratunac Brigade regularly send reinforcements from the

22 brigade forces to the Sarajevo front?

23 A. Regarding the Sarajevo front, I would give you a more precise

24 answer. The Bratunac Brigade received as part of its area of

25 responsibility the area of Trnovo, and parts of the Bratunac Brigade went

Page 1823

1 there regularly following an order from the brigade commander.

2 Q. Okay. If you could turn this document to the last page of the

3 B/C/S version, and if we could put the B/C/S version on the ELMO, after

4 you take a look at it. That's fine.

5 A. I've looked at it.

6 Q. Now, you've already stated you don't -- you can't conclude about

7 signatures. This is in the name of Vidoje Blagojevic. Do you know if

8 this was signed for him by anyone?

9 A. Judging by this document, it is not possible to make such a

10 conclusion because it doesn't say "za" anywhere, or "for." I think one

11 cannot infer that somebody signed this order on behalf of Blagojevic,

12 judging by what I can see here.

13 Q. So under the procedures you described about signing documents, who

14 would have signed this document?

15 A. This document, or this order, would have been signed by Vidoje

16 Blagojevic.

17 Q. And the stamp you were speaking of, is this the stamp that we see

18 here?

19 A. It is the stamp of the Bratunac Brigade, the stamp we used.

20 Q. Now, I know this isn't an original. But can you tell whether the

21 stamp is over the signature or the signature is over the stamp?

22 A. I really can only make an assessment. This document was first

23 signed and then stamped.

24 Q. Is that the normal way it's supposed to be?

25 A. Yes. That is the normal procedure. First a document is signed,

Page 1824

1 and then it is stamped once it has been signed.

2 Q. Does it create any problem for the legitimacy of the document if

3 it's signed over the stamp?

4 A. Well, it could call in question its legitimacy because there would

5 be grounds to suspect that the document is a forgery. That could be the

6 case. The signature is a guarantee of authenticity. That is, that the

7 authorised person who wrote the document had reviewed it and that it was

8 his document. That is the rule.

9 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 273 dated 17

10 July, 1995, from the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade to the Drina Corps

11 command under the name of Blagojevic. And just noting what it says here,

12 I'll just paraphrase, it talks about among Muslim prisoners, there are

13 four underage children between age 8 and 14 who are being held in military

14 custody in Bratunac. And then it talks about one of them saying that the

15 Muslim troops were killing each other, and there's a proposal that this

16 testimony be recorded by the press centre.

17 Are you aware of the capture of four children of this age on or

18 around 17 July, 1995?

19 A. I know that roughly around that date, these four Muslim children

20 were captured, and I also know that they were put up in the premises of

21 the building in which the military police unit was housed. I saw those

22 children in front of the building, and I know what this is about.

23 Q. Do you know if they were ever, in fact, filmed?

24 A. What I can confirm, or rather, I have information from talks with

25 the officer who was responsible for this, that there was a request for

Page 1825

1 people to come from the press centre and to film this. However, I really

2 don't know whether this happened or not. I wasn't present when they

3 filmed this. But I heard that there was such a request made.

4 Q. Now, you have in your possession the handwritten version of this

5 as well as a teleprint version of this. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And just to be clear, you don't -- you can't testify one way or

8 another about whether Commander Blagojevic was involved in writing this

9 material?

10 A. I cannot really because I said, with regard to handwritten

11 documents I'm unable to say because there are similar handwritings and I

12 cannot confirm that this was his handwriting.

13 Q. Do you have any information that whether or not any adult

14 prisoners, Muslim prisoners, were captured along with these four children

15 on 17 July, 1995?

16 A. Regarding captured Muslims, I can only say what I heard talking to

17 Captain Mico Gavric, who was the coordinator during the search in this

18 area where these children were found. So I heard from him - this is the

19 information I received from Mico Gavric - that in that search, sometime

20 around the 17th and later, between 35 and 38 Muslims were captured. And I

21 also heard that those Muslims were handed over to Dusko Jevic who was with

22 police forces involved in the search. Regarding the fate of those men, I

23 know for certain that they were not brought to the Bratunac Brigade or the

24 police. Now, as to what happened to them, to those captured prisoners, I

25 really don't know because I wasn't involved in the search, and I was not

Page 1826

1 the officer responsible for prisoners at that time because specific

2 assignments were given to Mico Gavric, a captain from the Bratunac Brigade

3 regarding that.

4 Q. Can you tell us what was Mico Gavric's normal duties in the

5 Bratunac Brigade, if you recall?

6 A. I don't know whether I will be accurate, but I know that Mico

7 Gavric throughout was head of the artillery, if that was the name of his

8 position according to establishment. So he was chief of the artillery in

9 the Bratunac Brigade.

10 Q. All right. Going to another document, 65 ter number 36 dated 17

11 July from the main staff of the VRS under the name of Ratko Mladic to the

12 Drina Corps Command and to the Zvornik Brigade, the Bratunac Brigade, the

13 Milici Brigade, and the 67th Communications Regiment entitled

14 "integration of operations to crush lagging Muslim forces." It's entitled

15 "order." What military units to paragraph 1 and 2 concern? I mean which

16 units is this directing? Does this have anything to do with the Bratunac

17 Brigade, paragraphs 1 and 2?

18 A. Mr. McCloskey, I would like to ask you to give me a better copy if

19 you have one because I'm unable to read this. It's a very poor copy. Or

20 I think I have this order. I can find it in my file.

21 Q. You can try the one I've got. I don't know if it's any better.

22 A. It's all right. I can read it. I can tell you what I can see.

23 Q. Which one of these paragraphs has relevance for the Bratunac

24 Brigade?

25 A. As far as I'm able to see, paragraph 3 which says: "As of the

Page 1827

1 17th of July, the forces of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, the

2 1st Milici Brigade, the 67th - I think it says - Communications platoon,

3 the battalion of military police..." So paragraph number 3 in this order.

4 Q. Can you paraphrase what is being ordered as it relates to the

5 Bratunac Brigade.

6 A. With regard to the Bratunac Brigade, the order here is that

7 elements of the forces of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade should take

8 part in searching the territory in the Bratunac/Drinjaca/Milici area. The

9 area is indicated here, with the aim of destroying lagging Muslim groups.

10 Also, it defines that all the mentioned forces listed in paragraph 3

11 should be commanded by the officer for the military police and security,

12 Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic. Then it can also be seen that he will do

13 all this together with the command in Nova Kasaba, the seat of the 65th

14 regiment. That's it.

15 Q. At the time of the operation ordered in this document, were you

16 aware of such an operation?

17 A. Yes, I knew that the area would be searched in this period from

18 the 17th for the following two or three days. I think it was two days

19 after that.

20 Q. Does this order from General Mladic change the command structure

21 of the Bratunac Brigade in any way?

22 A. What I know is that it didn't change anything in substance. Not

23 just in substance, it didn't change anything as regards the command of the

24 Bratunac Brigade.

25 Q. All right. And if we could go to 65 ter number 276 dated 18 July,

Page 1828

1 1995, from the command of the Bratunac Brigade intelligence and security

2 organ entitled "situation in the Srebrenica region" under the name of

3 Captain Momir Nikolic.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honours, it should be "chief of

5 intelligence and security organ, Captain Momir Nikolic" according to the

6 final translation. The draft we have now just says "intelligence organ"

7 and that, I have been told, is not correct. And also at the top of the

8 page where it says "intelligence organs," that should say "intelligence

9 and security organs," and we will of course provide everyone with a

10 revised version of that.

11 Q. Now, what can you tell us about this document? I don't really

12 want to know anything about the substance of it right now. But did you

13 draft the information in here?

14 A. I have here in front of me a document written by hand, and I can

15 confirm that I did not write this document. This document, to the best of

16 my knowledge, was written by Colonel Radislav Jankovic. This can be seen

17 from page 2 in the left bottom-hand corner, there's the initial RJ. And

18 I'm familiar with his handwriting, so I know that this document was

19 written by Colonel Jankovic. And it was sent --

20 Q. Could you put that on the ELMO just so the Court and everyone can

21 see what you're talking about. Just point with your finger to the

22 initials at the bottom.

23 A. I was speaking about a handwritten document. This is the document

24 I was talking about. These are Radislav Jankovic's initials, Colonel

25 Radislav Jankovic, another person I've already spoken about. On the basis

Page 1829

1 of this document that was typed up here, it is evident that -- if you look

2 at the heading, you can see it. It is evident that this document was sent

3 from the Bratunac Brigade command. If you look at the signature, it says:

4 "Chief of the OB organ" which is intelligence organ, Momir Nikolic, which

5 is my name, and confirmation that it was sent from the Bratunac Brigade

6 command is this handwritten signature, the name of the person from the

7 communications centre who coded the document whose name I think was Tomo

8 Savic. I'm not sure about his last name. I'm sure his first name was

9 Tomo. I can also explain why my name is here.

10 This document was written in my office. After Colonel Jankovic

11 had written it, I took this document in handwritten form to the person

12 coding our documents in the communication centre. He typed it as usual.

13 It was the established practice for all of the documents that I wrote to

14 be signed in this way, and it was according to this established practice

15 that he put my name to this document because I brought the document to him

16 in the first place.

17 Q. So why is your name and title on this document?

18 A. I've just explained why, because I was the one who personally

19 brought this document to the person in the communications centre coding

20 our documents, Tomo Savic. He took it from me. He typed it up. And as I

21 was the one who brought the document, there was no need for me to put my

22 title because they knew it. So I just put Momir Nikolic, and then they

23 would add "the chief of the intelligence organ." They knew what to add

24 because I sent -- I had sent them documents countless times before.

25 Q. Now, there's initials that stand for the position that you're

Page 1830

1 heading. What are those initials that are written down here?

2 A. Abbreviation, "chief of the intelligence and security organ,"

3 chief of OB, the intelligence and security organ, Captain Momir Nikolic.

4 Q. So this "OB" means intelligence and security organ?

5 A. Yes, precisely.

6 Q. Thank you. The next document is Document P91. And it is entitled

7 "reports and meetings of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade." And if we could

8 show the witness the first page so he can see that. But then if you could

9 take a moment and go to -- well, first of all, can you tell us by looking

10 at the first page and maybe briefly flipping through this what this

11 exhibit is.

12 A. What I have in front of me is evidence related to reports at

13 meetings with the brigade commander and other work meetings held at the

14 command with the commander of the Bratunac Brigade.

15 Q. Okay. And can I ask you to go to a particular date in there of

16 October 16th entitled: "Working meeting of the commander with command

17 staff and battalion commanders, 16 October, 1995, 0800 hours."

18 A. The 16th of October, is that the date you were referring to?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. That's the 11th of November. Yes.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Your Honours --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: We should have made it easier for him.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 4th of October. This is 1996.

25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. McCloskey, may I ask you how much time do

Page 1831

1 you need to finalise?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Five or ten minutes, I hope.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 16th, 1995.

4 I apologise. Really, I was looking in 1996. It was an oversight

5 on my part. I've located the document you were referring to, 16th of

6 October, 1995.


8 Q. All right. Can you tell from this document whether Colonel

9 Blagojevic was present at this meeting?

10 A. Yes. What I can see here, working meeting dated 16th of October,

11 8.00. Colonel Blagojevic at the beginning of these minutes from this

12 meeting.

13 Q. What does that mean?

14 A. This means that on the 16th of October, Colonel Blagojevic chaired

15 the meeting attended by these officers.

16 Q. Okay. And you're I take it the Nikolic that's first up there in

17 that line as it reads: "Nikolic, Micic, Trisic...," et cetera. Is that

18 correct? You're at this meeting?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. I was present.

20 Q. And then under -- we see as we go down, if we could move the

21 English up on the ELMO a bit, that there is a paragraph entitled

22 "Nikolic." What -- and then there's information below it. What does this

23 connote, that your name is up there and there's information below it?

24 A. This means that I took part in the meeting and that I spoke about

25 certain things, things you can see in these minutes.

Page 1832

1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you in particular, the line at the bottom: "We

2 are currently engaged in tasks issued by the army of Republika Srpska

3 general staff (sanitation)." First of all, I think for the record,

4 sanitation on the original document is this word we've spoken of earlier,

5 asanacija, correct?

6 A. Yes, the document reads just as you've read it out. "Currently we

7 are working on duties of the tasks issued by the army of Republika Srpska

8 general staff (sanitation)."

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could you just put the B/C/S version on the ELMO

10 so we can see the words in B/C/S.

11 Q. Could you just point out the word asanacija.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. All right. What does this sentence mean?

14 A. This merely means that at this meeting, I informed Commander

15 Blagojevic that we were still involved in duties, or rather, pursuant to

16 the order of the main staff of the army of Republika Srpska in connection

17 with the removal of the grave in Glogova to secondary graves that I told

18 you about today.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may interject here, the document

20 it says here in English: "We are currently engaged," we are currently

21 engaged in, as if imparting information. The gentleman indicated his

22 interpretation where he says that they were still involved in the duties.

23 I would like to know which one -- is there a problem with the translation

24 in the English version? Because I see that he's giving a different

25 interpretation from what appears on the blank sheet of paper.

Page 1833

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Please, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't understand what he's talking about, Your

3 Honour. But I'm sure he can ask questions regarding that on

4 cross-examination. I'm not aware of any mistranslation. It speaks for

5 itself. Perhaps you can clarify to me what you mean. But I don't

6 understand what the problem is.

7 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Karnavas, please.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 The paper here says: "We currently engaged in tasks issued by the

10 army of the Republika Srpska general staff." So he is giving an

11 information report that we are engaged in. When asked about it, he

12 indicates that they are still involved in, meaning that somehow he had

13 previously informed his commanders, this is his interpretation here today

14 on the stand here, while in his written report "we are currently engaged"

15 as if reporting to the commander this is what we're doing. I just want to

16 make sure which one is correct, either the written form, is it a

17 misinterpretation when it was translated, or is it something that the

18 gentleman is now embellishing on because he's a Prosecution witness?

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Karnavas, this is not cross-examination.

20 During the cross-examination you can put any question you like.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Please do continue, Mr. McCloskey.


24 Q. Are you aware of any investigation carried out by the

25 Bratunac Brigade regarding the abuse of Muslim civilians or prisoners in

Page 1834

1 the periods of July 12th, July 13th through November and December 1995?

2 A. No. I was not aware of any investigation being carried out or

3 charges being pressed against any of the members of the Bratunac Brigade.

4 Q. Did the Bratunac Brigade command punish anyone in the

5 Bratunac Brigade for any abuses of Muslim prisoners from July -- excuse

6 me, Muslim prisoners or Muslim civilians from July 12th through

7 November/December 1995?

8 A. Not to my knowledge. No one was punished for any abuse or

9 mistreatment or anything in relation to the Srebrenica operation.

10 Q. Now, did you and your lawyers meet with members of the

11 Prosecution, including myself and investigators, in discussing whether or

12 not you would enter into a plea agreement?

13 A. I'm afraid I haven't understood your question. I don't understand

14 your question, Mr. McCloskey. Specifically what do you mean? Can you

15 please try to be a bit more specific. This is a very general question.

16 Q. Did you meet with myself and others prior to pleading guilty in

17 this case and provide information to the Office of the Prosecutor in the

18 context of a plea agreement and negotiations?

19 A. Yes. We met to talk, yes.

20 Q. And have you reviewed the notes of those discussions that were

21 submitted by investigator Bruce Bursik?

22 A. Yes. I've reviewed all the notes compiled by Mr. Bursik.

23 Q. Were you given the opportunity to go over that material with Mr.

24 Bursik to correct any mistakes or inaccuracies prior to the printing of

25 this report?

Page 1835

1 A. In principle what I can say concerning the notes is that they are

2 notes compiled by this gentleman, the gentleman in question. We discussed

3 those notes. The statement reflects faithfully what I said, and I have no

4 further comments to add. I did go through the notes, and I would prefer

5 not to comment on the way that gentleman compiled those notes. However, I

6 can confirm here now that my words were accurately recorded and reflected

7 in the transcript.

8 I think there are a number of mistakes there in that transcript

9 because we spoke countless times of certain issues. We went back to some

10 issues countless times, and I'm really not in a position to comment on

11 everything that's written there. These are that gentleman's notes.

12 That's my opinion. The notes are his, not mine. I said whatever I said

13 exactly in the way in which it is reflected in my statement.

14 Q. My question was did you have a chance to go over those notes with

15 Mr. Bursik before he put it in this report to clear up any mistakes?

16 A. I think that on one occasion as far as I can remember, we did

17 discuss those notes but not in detail and not in the way I reviewed when I

18 received the notes typewritten. When I received those notes, then I

19 really did review them in detail.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I only have one more document, but I

21 would ask that we go into private session to discuss that document

22 briefly.


24 [Private session]

25 [redacted].

Page 1836













13 Page 1836 redacted private session













Page 1837

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.


7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

8 witness.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. Mr. McCloskey, the Bench is a bit

10 confused with the numeration of the documents you are going to tender.

11 Some of the documents marked with letter P, some of the documents are just

12 marked as 65 ter numbers. May I ask you to get together with the deputy

13 court manager and to sort out this business.

14 And then what documents are you going to tender?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Because some of them are not marked with

17 letter P.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's my understanding about the system that we

19 have developed in connection with the court management is that many of the

20 documents that Mr. Nikolic has referred to will be tendered through other

21 witnesses after a more thorough authentication has been provided,

22 including some of the intercepts, many of the documents that were captured

23 in a search warrant. So those particular documents that will not be

24 tendered through this witness have what we call the 65 ter number, which

25 was the original number given them in our exhibit list. This was done on

Page 1838

1 the agreement of the people that know how to do this better than I do.

2 A few of the documents that Mr. Nikolic has more personal

3 knowledge of, such as the security rules and a few other things, we will

4 be offering through this witness at the conclusion of cross-examination

5 which gives us a little time to make sure we know which ones they are.

6 And we will work together, as you've said, with court management to make

7 sure we get that right.

8 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Please do this job as quick as possible to

9 facilitate the work of the Bench.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Well, no observations on the part of Defence

12 teams?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, my only observation, Your Honour, is the

14 procedure that I'm used to is that when a document is made reference to,

15 even though it hasn't been officially entered into as a piece of evidence,

16 it's usually marked for identification purposes. And -- but I understand

17 Mr. McCloskey's predicament. So I assume that the 65 numbers that are on

18 are for identification purposes, and I assume that we will eventually get

19 a clean copy as we usually do through his magnificent assistant, you know,

20 Miss Janet Stewart, whose very officious, and I assume that's what's going

21 to happen.


23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I wish we were in Alaska right now, Your Honours,

24 but we're not. We'll be able to work this out according to these rules.

25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I hope you will work this out with the exhibit

Page 1839

1 lists and the exhibits you are going to tender.

2 This concludes the examination-in-chief of Mr. Nikolic.

3 Mr. Nikolic, until your testimony here has concluded, you may not

4 contact anybody with regards of this testimony.

5 As it was decided this morning, there will be no court tomorrow.

6 So the trial stays adjourned until Thursday, 9.00 a.m.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

9 the 25th day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.