Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3191

1 Tuesday, 21 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

7 Mr. Court Deputy, call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

9 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour. Good

13 morning.

14 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Your cross-examination, please.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

20 questions for this witness. We agreed yesterday not to ask any questions

21 of this particular witness. Therefore, Dragan Jokic's Defence has no

22 questions for this witness today. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Issa, now it is your turn.

24 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have a few questions.

25 WITNESS: WITNESS P-188 [Resumed]

Page 3192

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Re-examined by Ms. Issa:

3 Q. Sir, can you tell us how your friends arrived at Bratunac.

4 A. They arrived with their whole unit in a convoy. And they turned

5 off in Konjevic Polje, took the road from Bratunac, and they went straight

6 to Bratunac. I wasn't there myself, so I can't tell you exactly how they

7 arrived there.

8 Q. Do you know what vehicle they arrived in?

9 A. I can't say for sure. There were about 50 or 60 vehicles, so

10 whichever one they happened to be in.

11 Q. And how many people were with you, sir, when you left Bratunac

12 where you say you went to Brcko?

13 A. Three or four people.

14 Q. And can you tell us their names.

15 A. My brother, Miodrag Grujicic, and Gojko Simic.

16 Q. Is there anybody else?

17 A. No, no one else.

18 Q. And can you tell us, sir, what is the colour and type of vehicle

19 that you used to leave Bratunac?

20 A. It was a military 110, and it only comes in one colour: Green.

21 Q. And what does it look like? Can you describe a 110.

22 A. Oh, it's a lorry. I'm not a driver myself. I'm not a

23 professional driver. I'm not sure what the exact description would be.

24 It was just an ordinary lorry.

25 Q. And can you explain, sir, how is it that a truck from your unit

Page 3193

1 came down to pick you up? How did that come about?

2 A. Well, it always came whenever we had to go on a mission. Someone

3 from Bijeljina would send a vehicle over to pick us up.

4 Q. And where were you, sir, in Bratunac when you were picked up?

5 A. We would usually gather in the centre of town. The lorry would be

6 there to pick us up at a scheduled time.

7 Q. And how did you know what the scheduled time was?

8 A. They would normally tell us by telephone. We would know as a

9 rule. We would find out, and then they would tell us when the lorry would

10 be there.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. It appears that the

13 Prosecutor is doing direct examination as opposed to redirect. Now, in

14 light of the questioning in this particular instance, I don't object. I

15 just do want to raise, however, the issue that it is direct and not

16 redirect. And so in the future, I will be vehemently objecting to

17 Prosecutors coming here and doing direct on their redirect. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: In principle, I agree with you that the redirect

19 should be within the scope of the cross-examination. There's no problem

20 about that. But the question asked by the Prosecutor is a serious

21 question arising from your questions. So this time I'll let the

22 Prosecutor to move on, and be very careful about that, Ms. Issa.

23 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour. Am I permitted to continue

24 with this line of questioning?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it depends on how far you'll go.

Page 3194

1 MS. ISSA: I don't believe I'll have too many questions, but

2 perhaps we'll just see what the witness has to say.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may move on.

4 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

5 Q. And can you tell us, sir, how did you find out on this occasion by

6 telephone that you had to be picked up in the centre of town?

7 A. It wasn't only by telephone. My brother would usually know the

8 exact time. They didn't phone me to tell.

9 Q. Well, who did they phone, sir?

10 A. I don't know who it was on that day, but those boys who came over

11 from Sarajevo were told exactly what time we would be leaving for Brcko.

12 Q. And who was in charge of your group, sir?

13 A. Gojko Simic was.

14 Q. And do you recall precisely where you were picked up?

15 A. In the centre of Bratunac.

16 Q. I understand you said in the centre of Bratunac, sir, but is there

17 a more precise location that you can give us?

18 A. Near the cinema.

19 Q. Did you have any contact, sir, with any army officers in Bratunac

20 at the time?

21 A. No, no contacts. I did know Momir Nikolic personally, though, but

22 I didn't have any contacts with him.

23 Q. And who specifically informed you, sir, that you were to leave

24 that day and at that scheduled time?

25 A. My brother.

Page 3195

1 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. I have nothing further.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Yes, Judge Argibay, please.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good morning, sir. I have some questions for you.

6 First, can you tell me what was the significance of the bandanna, because

7 I've seen in the video a lot of people using that from different units.

8 And has that a special significance?

9 A. No special significance. It was just the sort of thing you wore.

10 How should I put it? It was more for teenagers. As you had occasion to

11 see, there were no older, rather mature men wearing bandannas. Those were

12 all young men aged 22, 23. Even here in Holland these days, I see many

13 people walking the streets wearing bandannas.

14 JUDGE ARGIBAY: But not with uniforms, I think.

15 A. Not wearing uniform, but there was nothing else for us to wear. I

16 wore that uniform throughout the entire war. I hardly wore anything else

17 at that time.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: No, I mean, the combination with uniforms, if you

19 were a soldier at the time, wearing bandannas also.

20 A. Well, it wasn't forbidden.

21 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. That was what I wanted to know.

22 You said you were wearing a NATO uniform at that time. How come?

23 A. I had bought one, or rather, I had traded one for another one that

24 I gave him.

25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You traded with a NATO soldier?

Page 3196

1 A. No, with a fellow of mine.

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Was it usual to have this sort of NATO uniforms on

3 the market?

4 A. Well, there were many of us wearing NATO uniform. Quite many

5 really.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: That's not what I asked you. I want to know if it

7 was easy to buy these uniforms in the market.

8 A. Well, it wasn't difficult to come by. And everyone liked wearing

9 it -- everyone wanted one like that.

10 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. I'm going to another subject. You said

11 that your group, your unit, was in Bratunac. Then you were picked up for

12 a mission in Brcko. I'm sorry for the pronunciation.

13 Your corps has nothing to do with the Bratunac Brigade. Is that

14 true?

15 A. I can't say. But we certainly didn't have any contact, at least

16 not that I was aware of, any contacts with the Bratunac Brigade, with

17 Zvornik, with Birac, with the whole area.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: So what was your group doing in Bratunac?

19 A. Well, we resided there.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I had understood that you resided in Srebrenica.

21 A. At that time, only Muslims lived in Srebrenica. I had been born

22 in Srebrenica, but I didn't live in Srebrenica during the war, but rather

23 in Bratunac.

24 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay, so you were all living in Bratunac, all the

25 group, and then you were given this mission to go to another town, and

Page 3197

1 then you were picked up by a truck from your unit. Is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And do you know who assigned you to this mission?

4 A. All missions were handed out to us by Ljubisa Savic.

5 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Who was who?

6 A. He was the main commander of the Panthers.

7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Was he also in Bratunac by that time?

8 A. No, he wasn't.

9 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You mentioned that you were in prison sometime.

10 Do you remember when?

11 A. I can't remember the exact date. Sometime between the 12th and

12 the 16th, give or take a day or two. I may be mistaken there. I can

13 hardly remember what happened yesterday, let alone ten years ago. Most

14 probably, there should be a record in that particular prison, and it must

15 be reflected in the record of that prison. It may have been the 14th, the

16 13th, the 15th, but I really can't say with any degree of precision

17 whatsoever.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Which month? Which year?

19 A. Back then, it was after St. Peter's Day. It was about the 12th of

20 July. It was within the space of those three or four days.

21 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Then you were there a very short period. How long

22 were you in prison?

23 A. Five or six hours.

24 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And what for?

25 A. They caught us holding certain items, or rather goods in Ljubovija

Page 3198

1 that we were not supposed to be in possession of.

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You mean for a robbery or something like that?

3 A. Yes, some cheap things.

4 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And were you tried after that?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Do you know why?

7 A. Because the origin of those goods was not known.

8 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions? Ms. Issa?

10 MS. ISSA: No, thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

12 Mr. Karnavas?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Mr. Stojanovic?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 At this stage, are there any documents to tender into the evidence

20 by the Prosecution?

21 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. I would be tendering Prosecution

22 Exhibits 150B and 150A. 150A is the English translation of the Zvornik

23 hospital protocol book, or at least one particular page of that book. And

24 150B is the B/C/S original protocol, Zvornik hospital protocol book that I

25 referred to earlier.

Page 3199

1 I would also be tendering, Your Honour, P151, which is an

2 affidavit from investigator Jean Gagnon relating the seizure of the book.

3 As well, P152, which is a log with the draft translation, reflecting that

4 it's a certified true copy of the medical book from the hospital. And

5 those items I would ask to be tendered under seal, Your Honour.

6 Also P154, which is the map; and P155, which is the name of the

7 witness, also to be tendered under seal, please. Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, 150 and 151 -- well, 150, I

11 don't have a problem with. 151, the affidavit, I don't know how it comes

12 in. Technically, I think they have to bring in the gentleman or they must

13 do something or they must make a reference to it. So technically

14 speaking, I don't see how that can come in. And I certainly don't want to

15 establish some kind of a precedent that I'm going to allow the Prosecution

16 to do whatever it wishes, whenever it wishes, without following at least

17 some kind of protocol.

18 Under the circumstances, however, in light of what this is, I have

19 no objections. But I do want to raise for future purposes that the fact

20 that I'm being rather generous today, I will not do so in the future,

21 unless they do it through the proper formalities. There is a way of doing

22 it.

23 As far as all the rest, again, I have no objections. I am rather

24 taken aback that this has to be filed under seal. I would suspect, since

25 there wasn't any explanation as to why it should be under seal, is because

Page 3200

1 the gentleman has asked for protective measures, though I should also note

2 that the Prosecution has repeatedly and without any -- without any

3 previous protections mentioned the gentlemen's name through their other

4 witnesses. So the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. Obviously, they

5 perhaps didn't realise that the gentleman would be asking for these sorts

6 of protections. And frankly speaking, I don't think the protections were

7 necessary. But be that as it may, again, I don't see why it has to be

8 under seal, but if that is the reason, then I leave it to the Court's

9 discretion to decide as to whether it should be under seal or not.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any problems with those documents

12 tendered by the Prosecutor?

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

14 objections, no problems with all these exhibits being tendered into

15 evidence. Just one small digression: The maps, too, should be tendered

16 into evidence today. They have been delivered in this form. But if we

17 look at the transcript, it would seem that the distance between Zvornik

18 and Brcko is about 140 kilometres. A question was asked, the question

19 again, and he answered. However, if you look at the map, if you study the

20 scale, you will see that the distance is much shorter. In actual fact, up

21 to 90 kilometres, Bijeljina-Brcko. However, in view of all other

22 evidence, we have no objections to raise. But we shall, of course leave

23 it up to the Chamber, whether the Chamber will accept into evidence these

24 lists from the Zvornik hospital or not, we leave it to the Court's

25 discretion. Thank you very much.

Page 3201

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

2 Ms. Issa, can you give some explanation of why the document P151,

3 the affidavit, should be admitted into the evidence. As you understand,

4 only those documents used through this witness could be admitted into the

5 evidence. I believe this is a rule. But if you could provide us with

6 sufficient reasons, we will consider it.

7 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. The affidavit is reliable, and it is

8 a form of testimony, if I can put it that way. I don't believe that for

9 description of how the material came into our possession, that we need to

10 call the witness live. And given that it is a reliable piece of document,

11 I would submit that it would be better to have it before the Court in

12 order for the Court to understand how the report or the medical record

13 came into our possession.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, generally speaking, you know, the affidavit

15 should come into the evidence through other channels. But in this

16 particular situation, I believe that the affidavit is closely related to

17 the medical documents. So we decided that those documents, 150A and B,

18 P151, P152, P154, the map, and P155 are admitted into the evidence under

19 seal.

20 The reason why those documents are under seal, because the name of

21 this witness is mentioned. I believe that in the list of the documents

22 tendered by the parties, the witness's name is also mentioned. So all

23 those lists should also be under the seal. As the maps, I believe that

24 during the proceedings, the witness used that map. As for the distance

25 indicated first by the Prosecutor, then by the witness, that's another

Page 3202

1 matter. So that's why we decided to admit all those documents into the

2 evidence.

3 Mr. Karnavas, are there any documents on your side that you would

4 like to introduce?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 I guess there's no documents to be introduced by Mr. Stojanovic.

8 Thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, concerning with that map, do you want

11 to introduce it under seal or not?

12 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour. That's not necessary.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your clarification.

14 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: So that document, P154, the map, is not under seal.

16 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to help

17 us. When the blinds are pulled down, the usher will show you out of the

18 room. We wish you a good journey back home.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Are we in closed session still?

22 THE REGISTRAR: No closed session.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session just briefly.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 3203













13 Page 3203 redacted private session













Page 3204

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

7 Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. With the next witness, I

9 was just informed by Mr. McCloskey this morning that when they rechecked

10 the translation of the interview that is approximately 70-plus pages, they

11 found that there were some translation problems.

12 Obviously -- Mr. McCloskey indicates that they're not that

13 significant. I take his word. However, what may not be significant to

14 him may be significant to me. So my preference would be that after the

15 Prosecution does its direct examination, that I be given an opportunity

16 sometime to read this because also, not knowing this, we went ahead and

17 made all the copies of the statement that we had from them so we could be

18 ready in the event we needed to refresh or impeach. So I will need some

19 time. And given that it now appears that we will not have anybody for

20 Thursday, the 23rd, in light of the new updated witness list that we got,

21 that we're not under any particular pressure. So in any event, I may need

22 about an hour or so to look this over, Your Honour. I think it's 70

23 pages. I don't want to proceed without at least being diligent in my job.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could have a longer break. It depends

25 on the time at our disposal, and it will depend how long the direct will

Page 3205

1 last. Maybe the direct will last for this whole day, so you have enough

2 time to do your homework tonight.

3 And as for the arrangement for Thursday, I believe that you

4 remember before the recess, I informed the parties to be prepared for some

5 procedural matters as for the agreed facts and adjudicated facts. If we

6 have time on Thursday, we'll make the best use of the time available to

7 deal with some procedural matters.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Then it slipped my mind,

9 and thank you for refreshing it so I can be prepared for Thursday.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Well, I have been informed by the Court Deputy that the next

12 witness agreed to testify in open session. So we could have the witness

13 now.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

18 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

24 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, did you want to make the introductory

Page 3206

1 remarks that you have been making to the other witnesses? This person

2 fits that same category.

3 JUDGE LIU: I see.

4 Well, Witness, before we start, I have to remind you certain rules

5 in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. And you have the right to object

6 to making any statement which might tend to incriminate yourself. But

7 however, the Chamber could compel you to answer the question. The

8 testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a

9 subsequent prosecution against you for any offence other than the false

10 testimony. Do you understand that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

13 Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

16 Q. Good morning. Could you first of all tell us your name and spell

17 your last name, please.

18 A. My name is Dusko Jevic, J-E-V-I-C, D-U-S-K-O.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Jevic, you and I met in my office this

20 weekend. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And as with other meetings that you've had with the Office of the

23 Prosecutor, the Prosecution with the investigator went over briefly with

24 you your rights to remain silent, your right to have an attorney present.

25 Is that right?

Page 3207

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in knowing those rights, you chose or agreed to speak with me

3 that day over the weekend. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you also said that you would testify today, and here you are.

6 So knowing those rights, are you again waiving those rights and speaking

7 freely to us today?

8 A. I am talking to you absolutely voluntarily today.

9 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what your current job is and where you

10 work.

11 A. I'm a police inspector in the Ministry for Internal Affairs of

12 Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Very briefly, what does that entail?

14 A. At the moment, I'm involved in preparing plans for training, and

15 also expert analysis of the training programmes for the police and so on.

16 Q. All right. And back in July of 1995, what was your position?

17 A. In July 1995, I was the deputy -- assistant commander in the

18 special police unit for operative and training -- operations and training.

19 So it's mostly the same kind of work that I'm doing now; that is, the

20 training of the personnel. But at the same time, I was in charge of the

21 training centre which was located at Mount Jahorina.

22 Q. Is that near Han Pijesak?

23 A. Between Han Pijesak and Jahorina, there is about a hundred to a

24 hundred and twenty kilometres.

25 Q. Okay. Can you briefly describe to us what the special police was

Page 3208

1 back in 1995. What kind of unit it was?

2 A. It was a unit comprising eight or nine units which were deployed

3 out in the field, and it had it its own command structure which was

4 situated in Janja near Bijeljina. The other units were deployed out in

5 the field. One of the units was in Trebinje, one was in Srbinje, one in

6 the area of Sarajevo, one of Sekovici, one in Janja, one in Doboj, one in

7 Banja Luka.

8 Q. And how many men just roughly were in each individual unit?

9 A. From 100, 120 to about 150. Some units had more, and some had

10 fewer. It depends.

11 Q. And what were the purposes of these units? What kind of work were

12 they trained to do?

13 A. Primarily they were trained for police work, but in case of need,

14 they were also sent to the front.

15 Q. And can you just describe their -- the chain of command, who would

16 have been the top person and below.

17 A. I told you on Sunday when we talked what I missed from the command

18 structure, which at the time was in the brigade. It's a name. I will

19 now state the commander of the police special brigade was Mr. Goran Savic.

20 The deputy was Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin. The assistant for internal

21 control and security was Milutin Erakovic. The deputy -- the assistant

22 for operative tasks was Mladenko Borovcanin, and I didn't mention him in

23 Banja Luka. And the assistant for personnel affairs was Mr. - just one

24 moment. I'm trying to remember the name - Obrad Saric. The assistant for

25 logistics was Vitomir Kapura. I was the assistant for operations and

Page 3209

1 training.

2 According to the structure scheme, I ranked in fifth place

3 approximately. According to the hierarchy.

4 Q. Did you have a rank?

5 A. There were ranks, and I think at the time I had the rank of

6 lieutenant colonel.

7 Q. And what was Mr. Borovcanin's rank?

8 A. I think that he had the rank of colonel.

9 Q. And how about Goran Saric, the commander of the police?

10 A. I think that also at the time he had the rank of colonel.

11 Q. Who was Goran Saric's superior?

12 A. The minister for internal affairs or his deputy were the superior

13 to Goran Saric.

14 Q. And in July 1995, do you know who the minister was?

15 A. In 2000, also I was not sure about who the minister was. I know

16 that Mr. Kovac, Mr. Tomo Kovac, was the deputy minister at the time. I

17 will try to recall who the minister was. At the moment I cannot. I know

18 that the person is originally from Bosanski Novi or Novi Grad as we call

19 it now.

20 Q. Okay. Now, did you receive an order or some instructions at about

21 the time of the fall of the Srebrenica enclave?

22 A. Either on the 10th or the 11th, I was at Jahorina, and I got an

23 order to go with one company in the direction of Bratunac and to wait for

24 further instructions and orders there.

25 Q. All right. Now, I showed you, I believe for the first time, an

Page 3210

1 order dated 10 July which I will have as an exhibit, 157, if we could let

2 the witness see that. And if our technology is working, it should be on

3 your screen in front of you.

4 A. Could I please just ask you to focus the picture.

5 Q. Just let me -- it's probably easier for you just to have a copy.

6 If your eyes are like mine, it might help to have this.

7 Now, you had a chance to see this in my office on Saturday. Is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes, and that is that order.

10 Q. Okay. And if we could just -- let's go over the order just a

11 little bit. Do you see as we start in the beginning, we see the 10 July

12 date. And it goes down to the people that it's addressed to you. Do you

13 see your address on this address list?

14 A. You can see the police training camp Jahorina here.

15 Q. Okay. And what was your understanding of this order? What did

16 you actually do pursuant to this order?

17 A. On top of the order, Mr. Borovcanin also came to see me and he

18 conveyed the order that by 1500 hours on the 11th, I have to be in

19 Bratunac; that I need to make the preparations and set out for Bratunac.

20 So I understood that he wanted me as a professional to prepare this one

21 unit and leave for Bratunac.

22 Q. Okay. So can you describe the unit that you took to Bratunac.

23 A. It's a unit which was made up of deserters who were picked up out

24 in the field, and they were assigned to us in order to be trained. They

25 were equipped with uniforms, long-barrelled weapons, and there was a

Page 3211

1 certain number of bulletproof vests, Kevlar vests that were available to

2 them. They were of Israeli manufacture. So the unit had basic equipment.

3 That is all.

4 Q. And were any of these deserters, as you call them, picked up in

5 areas outside the Republika Srpska?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you explain that.

8 A. They were brought from Yugoslavia --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure of the answer.


11 Q. Was there any arrangement that you're aware of between the RS and

12 Yugoslavia to transfer such people over to the special police forces from

13 Yugoslavia?

14 A. I don't know that. I was not at that level in order to know.

15 They were assigned to me for training, and that is the only thing that I

16 was able to know. Obviously I found out that they were picked up from the

17 territory of the former Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska, and they were the

18 ones who evaded military and police duty. And they were simply assigned,

19 a number of them was assigned to us, and a number was assigned to the Army

20 of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. So can you tell us again how many men you took to Bratunac.

22 A. Well, don't hold me to it. I cannot be absolutely precise, but

23 it's about a hundred men.

24 Q. And how many of those hundred were from this deserter category?

25 Just roughly. I know that we can't be exact in these figures.

Page 3212

1 A. The majority of them were deserters. There were a couple of

2 people who were the instructors from the police special brigade, and there

3 was also their company commander.

4 Q. Can you describe how these hundred people were divided into units

5 and who was commanding each of the units.

6 A. They were deployed in platoons and were commanded by people chosen

7 by the deserters themselves, and these commanders were assisted by

8 instructors who were actually issuing instructions.

9 Q. How many platoons?

10 A. It's either three or four. I cannot be quite sure.

11 Q. And how many actual special police officers or instructors were

12 helping you take charge of this group?

13 A. Up to about ten men.

14 Q. And can you describe the most significant commanders that were

15 under your command.

16 A. The company commanders were the most important, and these are the

17 Djuric and Nedjo Nikolic, these two people. Djuric commanded the first

18 company, and Mr. Nedjo Nikolic commanded the second company.

19 Q. What's Mr. Djuric's first name?

20 A. Djuric Mendeljev.

21 Q. You described the hundred men that you brought. Did they come

22 from both the 1st Company and the 2nd Company?

23 A. No. That day, the people who came with me were all only from the

24 1st Company.

25 Q. Later, did one of the other companies come to the Bratunac area?

Page 3213

1 A. No. On the 12th, the 2nd Company arrived at Bratunac with

2 Mr. Ekonjic, but to Konjevic Polje, even though I wasn't informed about

3 it, so I didn't know that.

4 Q. Okay. What day did you set off with your 100 troops to go towards

5 Bratunac?

6 A. On the 11th.

7 Q. And what time did you arrive in Bratunac?

8 A. At about 1500 hours, and I was sent to the Bjelosevac or Bjelovac

9 village to stay there in the village school.

10 Q. Can you describe to us briefly where that village is in relation

11 to Bratunac.

12 A. I will try to explain. In relation to Bratunac, it is in the

13 direction along the River Drina towards -- I think it's the road that

14 leads to Skelani along the River Drina itself.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. Excuse me. I think the distance is between 10 and 20 kilometres,

17 but please don't take my word for it.

18 Q. Okay. Now, did you meet up with anybody when you got to the

19 Bratunac area?

20 A. Yes. With Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin.

21 Q. And about what time was that?

22 A. It was after we found accommodation.

23 Q. Just roughly what time of day?

24 A. In the evening.

25 Q. And did you receive any instructions from him?

Page 3214

1 A. Well, he ordered me to get some officers and a number of men, and

2 to carry out reconnaissance in the Potocari area to see what was going on

3 there and to report back to him.

4 Q. And did you do that?

5 A. Just before dark, we set out. And since we didn't know the area

6 well, he gave us a couple of locals for us to carry out reconnaissance. I

7 wouldn't exactly call that reconnaissance. I would say it was more

8 observation than reconnaissance, the work that we carried out.

9 Q. When you say he gave you a couple of locals, who were they?

10 A. I don't think he gave us a couple of locals. It was just one

11 person who was familiar with the area, and I didn't know who the person

12 was. So this person, I think, took us to a place from which we could

13 observe the area.

14 Q. Do you know if this person was a police officer or a soldier or

15 civilian?

16 A. I believe that person was a police officer.

17 Q. And what kind of -- where did you -- what area did you go to to do

18 this monitoring or reconnaissance?

19 A. We went towards Potocari, but then we turned off to the right, to

20 the right of the main road between Bratunac and Potocari, and then on to

21 Srebrenica. There was a hill there that we went to. It was a hillock.

22 I'm not sure how I should explain that.

23 Q. Did you make it past the yellow bridge?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So you didn't actually go into the Muslim lines?

Page 3215

1 A. No, we didn't.

2 Q. And what were you able to observe from this observation?

3 A. Well, we observed the UNPROFOR base. We observed people gathering

4 around the base. That was the only thing we were able to observe.

5 Q. And did you report back to anyone after your observation?

6 A. Yes. I reported back to Mr. Borovcanin. He told me -- night had

7 fallen by that time, and at that time there were talks underway at the

8 hotel in Bratunac between the UNPROFOR commander, General Mladic, and

9 Muslim representatives, talks about the evacuation of the people gathering

10 there. He told me to wait, and that I would receive further orders in due

11 course.

12 Q. All right. And when you're observing the people in the UN

13 Compound, did you see any military-age men? Were you able to make that

14 out?

15 A. At the UN base, I did not see those civilians there. They were

16 next to the base, outside the base. It was only later that I saw a number

17 of people inside the UN base.

18 Q. But that night that you were doing your observation, were you able

19 to make out any military-age Muslim men from your observation point?

20 A. The distance was quite large, but you could see people gathering.

21 It was difficult from such a distance, nevertheless, to judge with

22 accuracy and see who exactly the persons were.

23 Q. Did you make any report to Mr. Borovcanin about potential

24 military-age men or potential enemy forces in and around the UN base that

25 evening?

Page 3216

1 A. I only said that around the UN base, there were civilians

2 gathering, or rather persons wearing civilian clothes, including women and

3 children.

4 Q. Did you get any more information that night from Mr. Borovcanin or

5 any other source?

6 A. No. Not that night. Mr. Borovcanin ordered me, or rather told me

7 that an agreement had been reached concerning the evacuation of the

8 citizens gathering outside the UN and UNPROFOR base, and that we should go

9 in with a number of forces to secure UNPROFOR and to make sure the

10 evacuation of the people gathered there would begin because an agreement

11 had been reached with the representatives of the Muslim people, he said.

12 Q. When did Mr. Borovcanin tell you that an agreement had been

13 reached with the Muslims?

14 A. It was about 2300 hours.

15 Q. And where were you when he told you that?

16 A. I believe we met at the police station in Bratunac.

17 Q. All right. And who did you think was in command or in charge of

18 the operation personally at that point?

19 A. Well, if one looks at the order that I received, the only possible

20 interpretation seems to have been that General Krstic was in command of

21 the operation because Borovcanin was to place himself at Krstic's disposal

22 in terms of commanding our police forces, because Borovcanin was the

23 commander of the police forces.

24 Q. Are you -- what are you specifically referring to in the order

25 which is the exhibit I previously mentioned, 157?

Page 3217

1 A. Well, under item 5, it says: "The commander of the unit, once

2 having reached the destination, must get in touch with the chief of

3 staff."

4 "The unit commander, having reached the destination, must contact

5 the chief of staff." General Krstic.

6 Q. Were there rules related to who is in command when the special

7 police are working with the army?

8 A. The rules that were applied, or rather used at the time in the

9 area had been taken over from the former Yugoslavia where if there was an

10 imminent threat of war or a state of war, the police were resubordinated

11 to the military, to the army, and placed at the disposal of the army to

12 use them as they saw fit.

13 Q. Do you know if that was in place for this operation, for your

14 involvement in the Bratunac order?

15 A. Yes. That was in place at the time, this law, or it was supposed

16 to be in place at least.

17 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe it wasn't in place?

18 A. I don't believe I have any reason to believe that. Mr. Borovcanin

19 commanded the entire police forces, so he could have attended certain

20 meetings where tasks were being handed out. And on the basis of that, he

21 issued us with orders.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to interrupt, but if we're going to be

25 discussing rules and asking the gentleman to discuss the rules, I would

Page 3218

1 ask that the Prosecution make reference to the particular rules, and

2 perhaps even show the gentleman which rules he's talking about. Because I

3 think we're getting into the land of speculation at this point.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends. Mr. McCloskey, if you believe that

5 is necessary, you could use those rules. But if you don't, just move on.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I don't, at this point. These

7 rules are very well-known, have been provided to the Defence, discussed by

8 Mr. Butler. Simple rules I don't feel a need to go into them in detail at

9 this point. But, Mr. Karnavas, we can provide him with copies if he needs

10 them for cross.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, you have still have the chance to

12 cross-examine this matter at a later stage.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. It just that it seems they

14 proofed the gentleman, they discussed the rules, it would only seem

15 logical that they would have gone over the rules with the gentleman, so at

16 least we could have an informed opinion as far as what his understanding

17 are to the rules. I do have the rules myself, and Butler has discussed

18 them. But Butler's not the witness. This gentleman is the witness. But

19 thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: It seems that everybody knows what kind of rule it is.

21 So if you have some questions, you have the full right to cross-examine

22 this witness at a later stage.

23 You may move on, Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

25 Q. So whose understanding is it to you that Mr. Borovcanin could be

Page 3219

1 receiving orders from in this particular operation?

2 A. Pursuant to item 5 of this order, it says: "Ljubisa Borovcanin

3 shall be the commander of MUP, deputy commander of the special police

4 brigade." So according to the chain of command, he was the only one who

5 had permission to attend these meetings, to receive orders, and to forward

6 such orders.

7 Q. Based on your knowledge and experience, who do you think from the

8 army would have been able to order Mr. Borovcanin various things?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I object to that. It's an open-ended question.

10 It's broad. I think if it tailor-made to the particular circumstances, I

11 might not object. But as it's phrased, I think it's overbroad.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, as you understand that the Prosecutor should not

13 ask any leading questions, it is a broad question, but the Prosecutor did

14 not ask the witness to speculate. I don't think there's any problem with

15 this question.

16 You may move on, Mr. McCloskey. But I have to remind you, it's

17 time for the break. You may finish this question. Then we'll break.


19 Q. Can you tell us who in the army that was in the area at the time

20 do you think could issue orders to Mr. Borovcanin?

21 A. Well, I'll be very straightforward about this. On the ground,

22 Mr. Krstic would have had the authority to issue him with orders, as well

23 as General Mladic who was moving about and actually handing out orders to

24 different people. Those orders were carried out obediently, without any

25 objections being raised. According to the chain of command in the MUP, I

Page 3220

1 think he could have received orders from Mr. Kovac or from the minister,

2 whoever the minister was at the time.

3 Q. One more. Just clarification: What about officers below

4 General Krstic's position? Would they be able to issue orders directly to

5 Borovcanin in your view?

6 A. I think not.

7 Q. Now, if Mr. Krstic issued an order to his subordinates to pass on

8 to Mr. Borovcanin --

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object. He's going to ask the witness

10 to speculate now. And he's asking a hypothetical based no foundation. So

11 if he wants to lay a foundation, because the gentleman is from MUP, he's

12 from the Ministry of Interior, he's a police officer, he's not in the

13 army. So if we can have a foundation. I don't even want the gentleman to

14 hear the question at this point. That's why I interrupted and I

15 apologise. But I think we're getting into an area where they're asking

16 the witness to speculate without a prior foundation.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, the witness has answered "I think not." You may

18 ask some questions why he does not think so, or some other questions along

19 this line.

20 But anyway, it is time for a break. Maybe during the break you

21 could think it over and put a good question to this witness.

22 We'll resume at quarter to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 3221

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Mr. Jevic, as far as your general knowledge regarding military

3 matters, does a general that's in charge of an operation, an army general

4 that's in charge of an operation have the power to delegate his orders to

5 others?

6 A. As far as I know, I think he does have that authority.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the morning of 12 July. What do you recall was

8 the first thing that you and your unit did that morning? Or what was the

9 first thing that happened to you?

10 A. Pursuant to an order that we had received to enter Potocari down

11 the road, we prepared our men, we took the road across the Zuti Most,

12 yellow bridge. And the men from the company took the left-hand side of

13 the road. And the unit from the public security centre in Zvornik took

14 the right-hand side. The essential task was to provide security for

15 UNPROFOR, to provide security for the people assembled there, and for the

16 evacuation of those people who were allegedly civilians to get off the

17 ground.

18 On our way in, we had no problems. It was only when we started

19 going around the UNPROFOR base, to the left from a hill, somebody fired at

20 us from a rifle. This only lasted a very short while. It was very brief,

21 and we took about an hour to reach the position, the crowd of civilians

22 assembled there and the UNPROFOR base.

23 Q. Who did you receive your order from to go to Potocari?

24 A. From Mr. Borovcanin.

25 Q. And how did you receive that order?

Page 3222

1 A. That evening, we met at the police station in Bratunac, and he

2 told me to get my people ready, that we should enter Potocari to provide

3 security for UNPROFOR. And in order to help evacuate the civilians.

4 This, he said, was an agreement that had been reached the same evening

5 between General Mladic, the representatives of the Muslim people, Bosniak

6 people, and the UNPROFOR commander in attendance at the meeting at the

7 hotel in Bratunac.

8 Q. And is this what you testified earlier to that you heard at the

9 police station in Bratunac?

10 A. Yes, that's precisely what I said.

11 Q. Who else was at the police station in Bratunac besides you and

12 Borovcanin that night of the 11th when this information was passed to you

13 by Borovcanin?

14 A. I don't remember who was there. I was only there very briefly,

15 for several minutes. I received my order, and I went back to prepare and

16 to get some rest before the next morning.

17 Q. Do you recall any army officers being there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And when you started going towards Potocari that morning, which

20 troops were actually with you? I'm speaking of your own troops now.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object to the term "troops," Your

22 Honour. They're police officers. They may be acting like soldiers under

23 certain circumstances, but they're not troops, and I think that it has a

24 subliminal effect of trying to make them into something they're really

25 not.

Page 3223

1 JUDGE LIU: In this context, the troops are the police officers.

2 Am I right?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I think we could battle in English

4 whether or not police officers that are acting as soldiers are troops or

5 not, but it's really not intended for any subliminal effect. These guys

6 are armed with rifles, and camouflage gear. I'm not trying to suggest

7 they're army troops; we know who they are. The witness has said who they

8 are. So troops is a very simple way of describing these folks. That's

9 really what they are; they're acting under the command of the army,

10 they're acting as a combat unit. I mean, this isn't a band of traffic

11 police.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we have to distinguish the people

13 subordinate to the police and the people in the regular army. So long as

14 the distinction is clear, I see no problem with any terminology as troops,

15 as army, soldiers, whatever you like.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

17 Q. Your men, which of your men went with you on the morning of the

18 12th?

19 A. Three platoons came with me. One platoon stayed back at Bjelovac

20 and Bjelosevac to rest. I think it was at Bjelosevac.

21 Q. Who were your commanders that were in charge of those men that

22 went with you to Potocari that morning?

23 A. The company commander was Mr. Djuric, Mendeljev.

24 Q. Okay. And you mentioned as you approached Potocari that there was

25 another unit, I think you said from the public security centre of Zvornik.

Page 3224

1 Can you describe what that unit is, where they fit into the structure of

2 armed forces.

3 A. This was a company belonging to the public security centre in

4 Zvornik. They took the right-hand side of the road and further to the

5 right. They were part of the military formation, the same way we were.

6 Q. And do you know what this company from the Zvornik security centre

7 was made up of, what kind of individuals?

8 A. Those were police officers who belonged to the public security

9 centre in Zvornik.

10 Q. And is this company mentioned in the order that you had -- the 10

11 July order we had just spoken of, which appears to have been removed?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's P157.

13 A. Well, it's there. Item 2, forces of the public security centre in

14 Zvornik. Or rather, point 2.

15 Q. Okay. And did you go with your men into Potocari?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And tell us what you saw, what happened.

18 A. When we reached Potocari, we saw a crowd of people there, women,

19 children. We saw some military units passing through, military units,

20 some of which I was familiar with and some of which I did not recognise.

21 We simply stayed there to provide security for the crowd and for the

22 UNPROFOR forces. About 9.30, Mr. Borovcanin, General Mladic met outside

23 the base, the UNPROFOR base, near a house.

24 Q. Did you see this, or did you just hear about it, this meeting

25 between Borovcanin and Mladic?

Page 3225

1 A. I saw it.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Excuse me. I did see them meet. I was near the place where they

4 met. But I was in no position to listen to their conversation.

5 Q. Did you receive any information that came from that meeting?

6 A. I received information that the vehicles to be used for the

7 evacuation of civilians would arrive, and that I was to liaise with the

8 UNPROFOR officer to see how many civilians were inside the base and to

9 enter the base and to see who else was there.

10 Q. Who gave you this information and instructions?

11 A. Mr. Borovcanin.

12 Q. And did he tell you anything else?

13 A. No. After that, we left and went to see a DutchBat officer. We

14 entered the base together and saw an enormous crowd assembled there,

15 including some wounded. Then we went back and waited for the evacuation

16 vehicles to arrive to begin evacuation of those civilians there.

17 Q. When you say "we went to the UN base," who are you referring to?

18 A. I'm referring to Mr. Borovcanin. I'm referring to myself. I

19 think Djuric Mendeljev was there. And perhaps a couple of other people

20 who were police officers.

21 Q. Excuse me. You stated you saw other units there, some of whom you

22 recognised and some of whom you didn't. Can you tell me first of all how

23 long you were in Potocari on the 12th of July.

24 A. I arrived in the morning, and I stayed until 19 or 2000 hours.

25 Q. During the time that you were in Potocari on the 12th, what units

Page 3226

1 did you recognise?

2 A. There were several units there. Some I recognised and some I

3 didn't. They were just passing through. Many units and many groups were

4 coming to see what was happening in Potocari, and a number of units were

5 simply passing through Potocari. One of the units that passed through

6 were the Drina Wolves with all of their equipment on their way to Zvornik,

7 I believe. The military police, I'm not sure, might have been there, and

8 some other military units I didn't recognise.

9 Q. Did you see any members of the Bratunac Brigade military police in

10 Potocari that day?

11 A. The military police was in Potocari that day.

12 Q. The Bratunac Brigade military police?

13 A. It was probably just the Bratunac military police.

14 Q. Do you remember telling me over the weekend that it was the

15 Bratunac Brigade military police that were there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you have some doubt now whether or not the Bratunac military

18 police were in Potocari on the 12th?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And what did you do after -- after you went to the UN base, then

21 you said you came back and were waiting for the vehicles, for the

22 transportation. What did you do, if you could describe the rest of your

23 activity?

24 A. After that, I had breakfast near a house. And in the meantime,

25 General Mladic came by. In a way, with one sentence, he practically told

Page 3227

1 us, "Can you police" - let me not say the word - "come with me up to those

2 people." And I took one guy, his name was Dragan Vasiljevic, who happened

3 to be there at the time, and I went with him all the way to the crowd. If

4 necessary, I can say directly what was the original sentence that he

5 stated. Then General Mladic communicated with the civilians. He was

6 distributing food, water, bread to them. I was there next to him.

7 Q. Next to General Mladic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was it that you heard General Mladic say?

10 A. He told them that they should be patient, that vehicles would come

11 to evacuate them, that this was agreed on, that the Serb army was fair.

12 That's what I heard. That they shouldn't be afraid of anything and so on.

13 Q. What was the comment that General Mladic made to you earlier that

14 may be inappropriate?

15 A. I will be direct. I hope the Honourable Court and everybody in

16 the courtroom would excuse me. He said: "Do you police cunts dare go

17 with me up there to those people who have gathered?"

18 Q. So what happened after he gave his speech to the Muslims where you

19 were next to him? What happened then?

20 A. Well, nothing. Simply in that area, many came to see this crowd

21 of people. Many people came and left. It was just like a circus.

22 Q. When you say "many people came," who are you talking about?

23 A. Many units came that I didn't know, and many groups of people in

24 various uniforms came to see it. And then they would leave and so on.

25 Q. Okay. And then what happened? What did you do?

Page 3228

1 A. After that, the buses started arriving. I received an order to

2 pull out two platoons and to send them to secure the Kravica/Sandici Road

3 towards Pervan, so for them to secure that road and to remain there with

4 one platoon in order for the evacuation of the civilians to continue.

5 Q. Who issued you that order?

6 A. Mr. Borovcanin.

7 Q. Who were your troops to be commanded by in that area,

8 Sandici/Kravica?

9 A. One of the officers.

10 Q. Which -- one of whose officers?

11 A. Our officers.

12 Q. Do you know which one?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Someone from Jahorina or somewhere else?

15 A. Someone from Jahorina.

16 Q. Okay. And then what happened?

17 A. Then the buses started arriving, and as they started to arrive,

18 the buses and the trucks, the crowd was let through. Men, women,

19 children, who got into those trucks, we would turn those buses around in

20 front of the UNPROFOR base because this was a very small area. And as the

21 buses or the trucks filled up, they would leave. In conversation in

22 Banja Luka -- during the interview in Banja Luka in 2001, or in 2000, I

23 heard that Mr. Nikolic said that I was the one who coordinated the

24 separation of people in Potocari, together with him. But I responsibly

25 state that that is not so. I just saw those people getting into the buses

Page 3229

1 and the trucks. They were supposed to be evacuated towards Kladanj. But

2 the evacuation went in the direction of Bratunac, Potocari,

3 Konjevic Polje, Vlasenica, Kladanj. So I don't know where these buses or

4 trucks -- where the people were separated in the trucks and the buses. I

5 was not able to know that, and I don't know that.

6 Q. Did you see any men separated from their families from the crowd

7 in Potocari while you were there on the 12th of July?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. Where were you on the 12th of July while you were in Potocari?

10 A. In that period during the evacuation, I was exactly in the area in

11 front of the UNPROFOR base where there was enough room for the buses and

12 the trucks to turn around. Simply for me, as a person, it was important

13 for me to do this as soon as possible because it wasn't nice to watch that

14 crowd in that state. The weather was hot and so on.

15 Q. Did you see any of the Muslims abused in any way during that day

16 on the 12th of July?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. Were you in that area by the UN base that you've described until

19 the transportation stopped that day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You never saw any Muslim hit or kicked, pushed on to a bus?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You never saw any men separated from their families and moved into

24 detention locations around the UN base?

25 A. No.

Page 3230

1 Q. Did you receive any reports that Muslims were being physically

2 abused on the 12th of July?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you receive any reports on the 12th of July that Muslim men

5 were being separated from their families?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you in Potocari on the 13th of July?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see any men separated from their families on the 13th?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see any Muslim -- any Muslims abused in any way as they

12 were getting on the buses or otherwise in Potocari on the 13th of July?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you receive any reports that Muslims were being abused around

15 Potocari on the 13th of July?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you receive any reports that Muslim men were being separated

18 from their families on the 13th of July?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. About what time did the transportation stop for the day on

21 the 12th of July?

22 A. I think it was at around 1900 or 2000 hours. Between 19 and 2000

23 hours.

24 Q. In July of 1995, did you know who Momir Nikolic was?

25 A. I knew Momir Nikolic from before.

Page 3231

1 Q. Did you have any contact with Momir Nikolic on the 12th of July?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Did you see Momir Nikolic in Potocari on the 12th of July?

4 A. When you talked with me, I also said that I did not remember.

5 Q. I know. We have to just kind of go over things. And I know it's

6 repeating.

7 So did you see Mr. Nikolic on the 12th of July?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. And you're aware that Momir Nikolic has stated that he

10 communicated with you regarding the transportation of the Muslim civilians

11 from Potocari on the 12th and 13th. What do you have to say about that?

12 A. I must say that I, as a man, honourably, on the 12th and 13th, did

13 what I did ordered to do. And the statements by Mr. Momir Nikolic are not

14 correct. And I think that that has nothing to do with me. I, either as a

15 person or as a police officer, would not permit myself to commit such

16 acts.

17 Q. Mr. Nikolic didn't say that you committed any acts of abuse that I

18 recall. He said that you were just organising the transportation of the

19 Muslim prisoners in regard to what he said about you.

20 A. In order to be direct, in that period -- when it is translated

21 properly in my language, skretnicar is a person who regulates traffic. So

22 on the 12th and 13th, I simply directed the people. I turned around the

23 trucks and the buses. And as people were let through from the crowd and

24 were filling in the trucks and the buses, and then when it was completed,

25 it went on. So that's how the operation was proceeding.

Page 3232

1 Q. In this process, did you communicate with any of the other units

2 that were assisting you in this process?

3 A. As far as I know, I did not.

4 Q. Were there other units assisting you in this process, of

5 organising the buses and transporting the people out of Potocari?

6 A. There was a company from the Zvornik centre in that region. There

7 was also the military police. There were also other military units. So I

8 really don't know what they were doing. They were perhaps securing the

9 crowd. I don't know.

10 Q. Military police, which military police?

11 A. Of the Bratunac Brigade.

12 Q. Did you communicate with anyone from the Bratunac Brigade military

13 police that day, on the 12th, or the 13th, to help get this job done?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who? Do you know?

16 A. No, I did not have any contact with anyone. I don't recall.

17 Q. It may have been a translation glitch.

18 Just for the record, I think it's clear that the witness said he

19 never had any contact.

20 So what did you do after the buses stopped transporting people?

21 A. We continued to secure the road, Bratunac/Konjevic Polje. This

22 was done in the period, as I stated before, it was also done on the 14th

23 and the 15th. On the 16th, we stopped doing this.

24 Q. Before we get there - we'll get there fairly soon - let me just

25 kind of work through this step by step.

Page 3233

1 The evening of the 12th when the transportation was finished in

2 Potocari, did you receive instructions what to do next?

3 A. I received instructions just to continue to secure the road.

4 Q. Who gave you those instructions?

5 A. Mr. Borovcanin.

6 Q. So that evening on the 12th of July, is that when Mr. Borovcanin

7 gave you those instructions?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And so where did you go after receiving those instructions from

10 Mr. Borovcanin?

11 A. I went to Bjelovac for a rest.

12 Q. How about your men? Where did they go?

13 A. Some of them were in Bjelovac resting, and some were securing the

14 road.

15 Q. Do you know roughly how many went to secure the road?

16 A. I think there were two platoons securing the road, and that the

17 rest were taking a rest.

18 Q. Just to try to clarify, when did these two platoons get broken off

19 from your units to secure the road? What time of day on the 12th?

20 A. Sometime after 10.00.

21 Q. Okay. So by the end of the transportation which you say I think

22 was at 1700, had those two platoons been out on the road for several hours

23 as far as you know?

24 A. The transport did not last until 1700 hours, but until either 19

25 or 2000 hours. I apologise.

Page 3234

1 Q. Okay, I'm sorry. At 1900 hours, how long had your two platoons

2 that had been diverted, how long had they been out there on the road just

3 roughly?

4 A. That means that after they received the order to secure the road,

5 left to do so. So they could have arrived there in about one hour, to

6 that road that they were supposed to secure, and to deploy along it.

7 Q. So how many of your special policemen from Jahorina were in

8 Potocari on the 12th of July, sort of after your other crew went to the

9 road?

10 A. Only one platoon.

11 Q. Roughly how many men was that?

12 A. About 30.

13 Q. Okay. So by the end of the transportation, you say 1900, roughly

14 how many of those 30 went where?

15 A. Of the three platoons that came to Potocari, two went to secure

16 the road, and one platoon remained in Potocari.

17 Q. Right. But now the evening of 12 July, the platoon that's left

18 with you, where did it go after the transportation was over?

19 A. We were pulled back to rest in Bjelovac.

20 Q. So none of your platoon that night that were with you in Potocari

21 the whole day were diverted to the road? Is that right?

22 A. That night, no platoon was sent to the road except those two that

23 were already there, and then the next day, another company came from the

24 direction of Konjevic Polje to Pervani to secure that road, the people who

25 were -- that platoon which was pulled out on the 12th from Potocari, it

Page 3235

1 went to rest in Bjelovac.

2 Q. Can you tell us, this new company that came on the 13th, where did

3 that company come from?

4 A. The company did not arrive on the 13th. It came on the 12th. It

5 came from Jahorina and was stationed at the school in Konjevic Polje with

6 the task of securing the same road. But on the 12th, I didn't know that

7 it had arrived, and I didn't know that it had been deployed. I received

8 this information later.

9 Q. Okay. So that's the same company you referred to earlier in your

10 testimony that you didn't know about at the time. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So did anything happen on the night of the 12th where you were

13 billeted at the school in that town near Bratunac?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Were any of your men assigned any duties in Bratunac town the

16 night of the 12th, early morning hours of the 13th?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you aware of any Muslim prisoners detained in Bratunac town

19 the night of the 12th, morning of the 13th?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What did you do in the morning of the 13th?

22 A. I didn't have any particular duties on the 13th, so I don't know

23 at what point in time I went to visit the road and see the men, and then I

24 came back to the Bjelovac base to rest.

25 Q. Did you go to Potocari on the 13th?

Page 3236

1 A. No.

2 Q. So what was the first thing you --

3 A. Excuse me. I apologise. The evacuation also proceeded on the

4 13th. I apologise. So on the 13th, I was there for the entire time in

5 Potocari during the evacuation. I apologise. I mixed up the dates.

6 Q. No problem. So in the morning of the 13th, what was the first

7 thing that you did?

8 A. On the 13th in the morning, we got ready and went to Potocari

9 again to proceed with the evacuation of the civilians.

10 Q. And can you describe that -- your day there.

11 A. Just like the previous day, vehicles arrived. People got in, and

12 civilians left. I don't have anything particular to say about this.

13 Q. Did you communicate with any army officers or soldiers?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Did you receive any particular instructions from Borovcanin or

16 anyone else on the 13th?

17 A. No. My only task was to complete the evacuation of civilians that

18 day, and simply what we were doing, turning the buses around and the

19 trucks. That was it. And to keep things running.

20 Q. And again, just so we're clear, on the 13th did you see any abuse

21 of any Muslims in Potocari?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And did you see any separations of any Muslim men on the 13th in

24 Potocari?

25 A. No.

Page 3237

1 Q. And about what time did the transportation finish up on the 13th?

2 A. Sometime in the evening. I know that we withdrew at about 2300

3 hours to Bjelovac.

4 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Let me take you back briefly. When you

5 withdrew from Potocari on the evening of the 12th, did you leave any of

6 your men behind to secure the area around the UN Compound and the

7 civilians?

8 A. No. Our men were pulled out then from Potocari, and they went to

9 rest.

10 Q. Do you know who, if anyone, was left to secure the UN area and the

11 civilian area that night, the 12th of July?

12 A. I don't, believe me.

13 Q. The next morning, on the 13th, you didn't check in with anyone or

14 see anyone that had been on duty that night?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. How come you're smiling?

17 A. Well, you know, it has been eight years since. You try to think

18 back. You try to recollect every single detail, but you simply can't.

19 What I can say is that I did something that was normal and useful.

20 Q. Potocari on the 12th and 13th, your activities were normal and

21 useful. Okay.

22 On the evening of the 13th, was the job finished?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were there any Muslims left behind in Potocari that you were aware

25 of?

Page 3238

1 A. The Muslim wounded remained in the UNPROFOR base. And later, I'm

2 not sure in what way exactly and pursuant to which agreements, those

3 people were evacuated. I'm not sure where to, nor who by.

4 Q. Okay. And what did you and your troops do that evening when the

5 job was finished, on the 13th?

6 A. We pulled out and went back to the school where we slept.

7 Q. Did you drive through Bratunac on your way to the school where you

8 were billeted?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. Were any of your men assigned to duties, guard duties, in Bratunac

11 town that night, the night of the 13th?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were they assigned to any duties in Bratunac town the night of the

14 13th?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did they all go back with you to the school?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you aware that night that there were thousands of Muslim

19 prisoners being detained in the city of Bratunac on the night of the 13th,

20 early morning hours of the 14th?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you receive any reports of what was going on along the road

23 Sandici/Kravica/Bratunac on the day of the 13th?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When did you first get information about what was going

Page 3239

1 along -- what was happening along that road on the 13th of July?

2 A. Well, I can't give you the exact date, the 13th. I did hear about

3 an incident involving our unit from Sekovici. This unit captured a number

4 of Muslims, or rather, they surrendered to the unit and were billeted

5 somewhere at a factory or a school building. I heard that the deputy

6 commander had been attacked and that they had tried to kill him, the man

7 who was in command of that unit. And then after, that there was a

8 reaction where those people were killed.

9 I heard people talk about this. Of course, the deputy commander

10 reached for his rifle as he was grappling with those people who had

11 attacked him, and he got burned, after which he was killed I think several

12 months later in 1995. He was killed on the Odred [phoen] front. I think

13 his name was Cuturic, his first name was Rade, I believe.

14 Q. When did you first hear this story involving Mr. Cuturic and his

15 burns?

16 A. I can't say for sure. Last Sunday, I think we talked about it. I

17 told you I heard the story after the incident had occurred and about what

18 happened later. And allegedly, he burned his hand as he reached for the

19 rifle, as he was grappling with his attackers. Any further comment on my

20 part would, I believe, be superfluous.

21 Q. Okay. On the 13th during that second day of transportation, did

22 you have a chance to actually go along the road Sandici/Kravica area?

23 A. Now, whether it was on the 13th or the 14th, at any rate, I did

24 visit men there. But I can't say for sure because I may get the date

25 wrong. I'm more inclined to believe that it was on the 14th because

Page 3240

1 between the 13th and the 14th, the men who were providing security along

2 the road had been attacked. Someone threw a bomb at them, a hand grenade.

3 Three men were wounded, two were seriously wounded, and one was lightly

4 wounded and that's why I went there, to see what had happened.

5 Q. Do you recall ever leaving your duties in Potocari of transporting

6 all the people to go along the road, or did you go along the road after

7 all the transportation was over? Just to help you put this in context for

8 your memory. I believe you told us before that it was on the 13th that

9 you did this.

10 A. My apologies. On second thought, I think I did this on the 14th

11 for the same reason that I've just given you. If I were to say something

12 specific to you now, I am afraid it might be wrong, because there were so

13 many events happening at the same time. I think it was on the 14th.

14 Q. Okay. Now, the story you heard about Mr. Cuturic and the killing

15 of the Muslims, can you give us any kind of an estimate of how many days

16 after the event you heard that story?

17 A. It may have been the same evening. This sort of information

18 spreads rather quickly. People talk. It's a comparatively small area. I

19 think I heard about this that same evening because people were talking

20 about it.

21 Q. And who did you hear about it from?

22 A. From the public commissioner. All the lads from the unit were

23 talking about this. I don't think any one of them told me anything

24 particularly important or specific about what had happened.

25 Q. You said you heard it from the public commissioner. Who was that?

Page 3241

1 A. Excuse me. We have a saying, public secret, that's when people

2 talk about what's happening. I simply heard people talk about what had

3 happened, and this is the way in which I'm bringing it up with you.

4 Q. Did you ask for a report from your commanders that were in the

5 area of Sandici and Kravica?

6 A. I don't think they were near that building. I think they were far

7 from that building. I didn't request a report because they had nothing to

8 do with that. One of the reasons is that the 2nd Sekovac Detachment was

9 not under my command, therefore I could not make such a request. They

10 operated in the area independently. I assume they were receiving their

11 orders down the chain of command, meaning from Mr. Borovcanin.

12 Q. Did you make any request of Mr. Borovcanin what happened, about

13 this incident?

14 A. No. We never discussed this.

15 Q. So on the 14th, the day after the Muslim transportation is

16 finished in Potocari, where did you go?

17 A. To Bjelovac.

18 Q. And how did you -- what did you do that day?

19 A. I got some rest. As simple as that. As I said, I went to see

20 those people, and I believe, or rather, I'm sure that I went to the

21 hospital in Zvornik to see how the wounded men there were doing. And

22 after that, I returned to Bjelovac.

23 Q. Did you go see your men that were stationed along the Konjevic

24 Polje/Bratunac Road?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3242

1 Q. And did you -- where did you see them stationed along that road?

2 A. Just next to the road itself.

3 Q. Around what villages?

4 A. Well, the whole length of the road, between Kravica and

5 Konjevic Polje.

6 Q. And did you check in with any particular commanders?

7 A. I believe I talked to Mr. Nikolic who was in charge of the 2nd

8 Company, and I asked him whether there were any problems and that was all

9 we talked about. Yes, of course I did talk to people who were near the

10 scene of the incident when it had occurred, those three men who had been

11 wounded, two severely and one lightly, wounded by hand grenade. And the

12 person who had thrown the hand grenade at them managed to escape down the

13 road.

14 Q. Did you have a chance to talk to the -- Mr. Cuturic or anyone else

15 who had been wounded at the warehouse incident?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And when you checked in with your people along that road on this

18 day, the 14th of July, did you receive a report on what they had been

19 doing on the 13th of July?

20 A. They were simply there providing security along the road.

21 Q. Did you receive any information about special police forces being

22 involved in the capture of Muslim prisoners along that road on the 13th of

23 July?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You got no information about Muslim prisoners captured along the

Page 3243

1 Konjevic Polje/Bratunac/Milici Road on the 13th of July?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How about the 14th of July? When you were going along that road,

4 did you go by the warehouse in Kravica, the large agricultural warehouse

5 there right outside of Kravica?

6 A. I drove down the road and passed the warehouse.

7 Q. Had you heard about the stories by then?

8 A. I believe I had heard the stories, yes.

9 Q. Did you look over at the warehouse when you went by it?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. Well, I simply had no desire to.

13 Q. As far as you know, were any Muslims prisoners captured or did

14 they surrender along that road on the 14th of July?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So where did you go the night of the 14th of July?

17 A. I believe I was at Bjelovac.

18 Q. With who?

19 A. With my colleagues.

20 Q. How many of your -- of your men were with you at that point on the

21 14th of July?

22 A. I believe there was one reserve platoon.

23 Q. Okay. And what did you do on the 15th of July?

24 A. On the 15th, nothing. I got some rest. I spent some time in

25 Bratunac, some time in Bjelovac. I met Mr. Borovcanin. I think I went

Page 3244

1 with him to see Mr. Deronjic. We had coffee together, because

2 Mr. Deronjic and Mr. Borovcanin were talking about something, I believe,

3 but only very briefly. And then after that, I went back to Bjelovac.

4 Q. What was Mr. Deronjic and Mr. Borovcanin speaking about?

5 A. I don't know. I can't remember. All this time we were just

6 having coffee.

7 Q. Where?

8 A. Well, some premises or other. It was on one of the upper floors

9 in Bratunac.

10 Q. What did you do on the 16th?

11 A. On the 16th, we received another order to pull the people out from

12 the road, to allow them to get some rest and to organise a patrol that

13 would patrol the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje Road with two vehicles, and a BRD

14 that was at the disposal of the public security station in Bratunac. I

15 think we started patrolling without the BRD at first because it needed

16 fixing. It was not in working order. There were some technical problems

17 with that particular piece of equipment.

18 Q. Who did you receive the orders to do this from?

19 A. From Mr. Borovcanin.

20 Q. And later on, did he give you any other instructions regarding

21 anybody else?

22 A. On the 16th in the evening, I received an order to report to the

23 Bratunac Brigade about 2300 hours. There was to be a meeting held at the

24 brigade concerning the clearing of the terrain, or rather the searching of

25 the terrain in the general area of Sandic, the area between Srebrenica and

Page 3245

1 Konjevic Polje, the entire area through which Muslim forces, Muslim combat

2 forces, were moving that were pulling out of the area.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, excuse me.


5 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm told that the

6 gentleman had indicated that concerning the searching of the terrain is

7 what he had indicated, and it appears on the monitor that it says clearing

8 of the terrain. I know it's a minor technicality, but perhaps -- and it's

9 on 21:11:54. So perhaps that could be looked into later on.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I thought he said both and corrected himself.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe there's a difference between the clearing

12 of the terrain and the searching of the terrain. Maybe you could ask some

13 questions to this witness, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Before we clear up that issue, was there so many mention of

16 Momir Nikolic that evening?

17 A. I received an order to report about 2300 hours to Mr. Nikolic, to

18 organise a meeting. I went there at 2300 hours, and I was told that the

19 next morning between 7.00 and 8.00 there would be a meeting at the

20 Bratunac Brigade command concerning an agreement to search the terrain or

21 ground. I apologise. There's a huge difference between clearing the

22 terrain and searching the terrain.

23 Q. We'll clear that up when we get there. We understand. Thank you.

24 Now, who told you to meet with Mr. Nikolic at the Bratunac

25 Brigade?

Page 3246

1 A. Mr. Borovcanin.

2 Q. And when you went to the Bratunac Brigade that evening, who did

3 you meet with?

4 A. I met with Mr. Nikolic. He told me that there would be a meeting

5 concerning the searching or the combing of the terrain the next morning.

6 Q. Was anything else discussed?

7 A. Not as far as I know.

8 Q. And so what did you do?

9 A. Well, nothing. I went back to my base. I told the men to prepare

10 for the next day's meeting, and that we would go out and search the

11 terrain.

12 Q. When you were at the Bratunac Brigade that night, did you

13 see -- besides Momir Nikolic, did you see any other officers of the

14 Bratunac Brigade?

15 A. I saw some people. But, well, you know, I didn't know those

16 people, and whatever I tell you now -- it was a command. They were

17 supposed to function properly, and it did. I did see people there, but I

18 didn't know the names of those people. I apologise. I must say, as soon

19 as I enter the building, walking passed the duty officer's room, that was

20 the procedure there.

21 Q. Do you know if you saw or were introduced to the commander of the

22 brigade that night?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Did you know Vidoje Blagojevic at the time?

25 A. No.

Page 3247

1 Q. Okay. And the next morning, what did you do?

2 A. Well, the next morning, I went to the meeting which started at

3 7.00 or 8.00, but I can't say. I went to the Bratunac Brigade where the

4 method which would be used in searching the terrain was agreed. We agreed

5 where to start, how to deploy the forces, and there was an agreement as to

6 which forces exactly would take part in searching the terrain.

7 Q. Who was at this morning meeting at the Bratunac Brigade?

8 A. Well, there were quite many officers. I didn't know those

9 officers.

10 Q. Was Momir Nikolic there?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. And who was in command of that operation as far as you know?

13 A. Well, as for the police forces that took part in searching the

14 terrain, we took part, and another unit with trained search dogs took

15 part. There was another unit that was with us, a special company from

16 Bijeljina. As for the military, I think there was a unit from the

17 Bratunac Brigade, one from the Milici Brigade, and that was that. Now, as

18 to who coordinated the entire operation, I believe we communicated with

19 the staff of the Bratunac Brigade commander.

20 Q. Who was that?

21 A. The commander of the Bratunac Brigade, Mr. Blagojevic.

22 Q. Who was the staff that you communicated with?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. So who was in overall command of this operation?

25 A. Captain Gavric was in overall command of this operation. And it

Page 3248

1 could have been me on behalf of the police forces.

2 Q. And who was Captain Gavric?

3 A. Captain Gavric was a man who was in charge of the people from the

4 Bratunac Brigade. Or rather, who commanded the military on the ground,

5 the military carrying out the search.

6 Q. Were your forces under the command of the army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And so who in the army was commanding your forces as you recall?

9 A. Well, we received our orders through Captain Gavric. He was

10 liaising and coordinating for that particular aspect.

11 Q. And where did you search the terrain that day?

12 A. The start line was, I think, Kravica, Pobudje, and so on and so

13 forth. It was that area. And then we set out in the direction of

14 Konjevic Polje. And we combed the terrain.

15 Q. Did you take any Muslim prisoners that day?

16 A. That evening, just before dusk, about 200 Muslims surrendered, and

17 four children.

18 Q. What were done with the four children?

19 A. They were taken over by Captain Gavric, and I don't know where

20 they went from there.

21 Q. And roughly how old were these four children?

22 A. From perhaps just over 10 to about 15 years old.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I think it's lunch break. I'm almost

24 done, Mr. President. I have a few exhibits, few photographs, and so

25 hopefully shortly after the next session -- or during the next session,

Page 3249

1 I'll be finished.

2 JUDGE LIU: So you mean you still need about 15 minutes?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I hope 15 minutes.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. As you know, Mr. Karnavas asked for a longer

5 break. So it's now 12.00. So we could resume at 1.00, and I give you 15

6 minutes to finish your direct. And the rest of the time will be in the

7 hands of Mr. Karnavas.

8 We'll resume at 1.00.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Mr. Jevic, we were talking about the 17th of July, and you

14 mentioned that the four children were handled by Mr. Gavric. What

15 happened to the I think you said approximately 200 prisoners?

16 A. The buses arrived. They were boarded on the buses, and they went

17 in the direction of Zvornik. I don't know where they were taken. But

18 they went in that direction.

19 Q. Where did the men get on the buses?

20 A. There, where they surrendered, where they were captured on the

21 road. On the road.

22 Q. Near what village?

23 A. I don't remember now. The search operation began sometime between

24 14 and 1600 hours. We started out from the position of Sandici,

25 Ravni Buljim, Pobudje and further. I need to mention that the terrain was

Page 3250

1 very difficult to sweep. At one point fire was opened at us, so I don't

2 know whether this was in the region of Sandici. I cannot really say

3 precisely, but I know that this did happen. This was just before dusk,

4 just before it got dark.

5 Q. Was it along the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac that

6 they got on the buses?

7 A. Bratunac/Konjevic Polje or Konjevic Polje/Bratunac; it's the same.

8 Q. Right. Can you narrow down the rough area at all along the road?

9 If you don't know the precise village, could you break it down a little,

10 give us a little better idea?

11 A. Unfortunately, I cannot.

12 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you an exhibit. It's P159. And I'll

13 just give you the B/C/S. It's a document that I showed you in my office

14 that has got the name handwritten at the end of it, Ljubisa Borovcanin.

15 And did you have a chance to read this document in my office?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Had you ever seen this before, before I showed it to you in my

18 office?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What does it look like to you? What do you think this is?

21 A. This is some kind of report about the events. So I can see that

22 it was signed by Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin.

23 Q. Do you recognise that signature?

24 A. I have a dilemma about the signature.

25 Q. Okay. What's that?

Page 3251

1 A. The dilemma regarding the signature is we worked together, so I

2 know more or less how he signs documents. It's quite close to his

3 signature, it resembles his signature, but I'm not quite sure.

4 Q. Okay. Now, the various events that are set out in this document,

5 they have to do with the special police forces and their various

6 engagements after receiving the order of 10 July. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is there anything that you've read in this document that just

9 appears to be absolutely incorrect or wrong?

10 A. This is a general document, so I cannot really comment on it.

11 Q. Okay. And you've -- you don't know -- do you have any reason to

12 believe Mr. Borovcanin has written this document?

13 A. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve. This signature of his

14 does not look authentic to me, so I cannot -- I would be lying to you or

15 to this Court if I were to say anything else.

16 Q. Now, it may have been a translation problem, but we had thought

17 you'd said before that it looked, it looked very similar to his signature.

18 Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it seems to me that it resembles his signature, but I'm not

20 sure.

21 Q. Okay. All right. If we could then just briefly go back to the 10

22 July order, which is 157. I notice in paragraph 2 of this order, it says:

23 "There's a mixed company of joined MUP forces of the RSK, Serbia, and

24 Republika Srpska."

25 Are you aware of any MUP men, MUP personnel from Serbia that took

Page 3252

1 part with these other forces after the fall of Srebrenica?

2 A. I don't know about members of the MUP from Serbia, but based on

3 this order you can see that it's a joint or a mixed company of the RSK,

4 and it was sent to that area. I didn't have the opportunity to see it in

5 that area, but it is beyond dispute that it was in the area of Trnovo and

6 Sarajevska Gradiska.

7 Q. So there was a Serb MUP unit in the area of Sarajevo. Is that

8 what you're saying?

9 A. No, not the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Serbia, but the

10 Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska; that's the one that I

11 meant. I know of that unit, that that unit was in the area of Trnovo, and

12 that's what it states here, the RSK MUP. I don't know about the men from

13 Serbia.

14 Q. Well, there is a reference to Serbia MUP here, isn't there?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. But you don't know anything about that?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. You have been shown a series of photographs and video

19 stills. Well, you saw some photographs in my office over the weekend,

20 didn't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And we're going to show you some of those same photographs up on

23 your screen. And the first one should be P22, chapter 16, page 5. First

24 of all, do you recognise the large face on the left-hand side of this

25 screen?

Page 3253

1 A. This is Mr. Mendeljev Djuric.

2 Q. You've described him as being one of the commanders under your

3 command?

4 A. He was the company commander.

5 Q. And do you know where this -- do you recognise this scene in the

6 backdrop?

7 A. Yes, this is the area of Potocari.

8 Q. Were you working around this same area on the 12th and 13th of

9 July?

10 A. Yes, but I was working a bit lower down. I was working in that

11 area, but I was working a little bit further below. I don't know what the

12 distance was.

13 Q. Okay. If we could go to the next one, 22, chapter 16,

14 page 5 -- sorry, page 6. The person with the -- looks like a blue vest,

15 do you know who that is?

16 A. This is a member of the company who spoke English and who

17 communicated or mediated between the gentlemen from UNPROFOR, and he was

18 translating for Mr. Djuric, I assume.

19 Q. In particular, what company?

20 A. This company which was in Potocari, the Jahorina company.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, which should be chapter 10,

22 page 6 -- sorry, it turned black and white. But can you make out anyone

23 in that photograph?

24 A. This is General Mladic, myself, Dragan Vasiljevic, and the escort

25 of General Mladic.

Page 3254

1 Q. Okay. Could you start on the left side of the picture and

2 describe who the first face is with the sunglasses.

3 A. From my left or from my right? Well, the first person from the

4 left with glasses, that's me. And the person in front that you can only

5 see the arm, I don't know who that is. The second person is Dragan

6 Vasiljevic. Then General Mladic. And then three of the members of his

7 escort. The person to the extreme right with glasses is the first person

8 in the escort of General Mladic.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the next one, which is chapter 12,

10 page 6. How about this person on the far right of the screen closest to

11 us?

12 A. This is a member of the company from Jahorina.

13 Q. Do you know his name?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was he a regular special police guy or is he one of the deserter

16 fellows?

17 A. No, he's a deserter.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to chapter 18, page 6. How about this fellow? Do

19 you know who he is?

20 A. A member of the Jahorina company, deserter.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, chapter 18, page 7. How about

22 this guy?

23 A. The same, member of the Jahorina company, deserter.

24 Q. Do you know his name?

25 A. No.

Page 3255

1 Q. The previous guy, did you know his name either?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. Okay. Chapter 18, page 10, how about this guy?

4 A. Also a member of the deserters' company. I don't know his name.

5 Q. Okay. Chapter 18, page 11. What about him?

6 A. The same.

7 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea where any of these individuals were

8 actually standing in these photographs?

9 A. I think that they were standing along the road that they were

10 securing.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions. I hope I made my 15

13 minutes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Any cross-examination, Mr. Karnavas.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jevic. Should I call you Stalin? Which one

19 would you prefer?

20 A. You can address me as Mr. Jevic.

21 Q. But you also go by the name "Stalin." Right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that's a nickname that you earned because I understand you

24 were a tough disciplinarian. Is that correct?

25 A. No. I mean, you can take it like that as well. But I got this

Page 3256

1 nickname before the war while I was working at the republican secretariat

2 for internal affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina in a special unit of the

3 republican secretariat. At the time, my colleagues named me Stalin

4 because I made them work hard in a disciplined manner on the tasks that we

5 were prepared for or trained to do.

6 Q. All right. So I take it you're a man that believes in discipline.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I suspect, perhaps because of your reputation, that is why you

9 were also given the task of being in charge of this training centre. And

10 of course, your qualifications as well.

11 A. That was my job, to be in charge of training. That's what my

12 official post was. I was deployed to that -- assigned to that post.

13 Q. All right. Are you an educated man, sir?

14 A. Well, it depends on what you consider.

15 Q. Have you gone to school beyond high school?

16 A. Yes, I completed first level of higher education.

17 Q. Okay. And how many years was that?

18 A. Two years.

19 Q. And was that a police academy?

20 A. No. It was the higher administrative school.

21 Q. Did you ever attend a police academy or an academy of sorts for

22 police officers?

23 A. From 1973 until 1976, I completed the police academy in Sarajevo.

24 Actually, it was called the militia school at the time. It lasted for

25 three years, and that was my profession.

Page 3257

1 Q. All right. And I take it by the time Srebrenica comes around in

2 1995, you have approximately 19, close to 20 years of experience as a

3 police officer. Right?

4 A. Yes, more or less.

5 Q. All right. And I take it a lot of it was on-the-job training?

6 A. The knowledge that I acquired in those conditions is relative.

7 According to circumstances in some other countries, and according to the

8 education of people who perform certain tasks, perhaps it is not quite

9 enough.

10 Q. Well, you must have had some endearing qualities if you were

11 promoted to the position that you held by the time Srebrenica came in

12 1995. Wouldn't you say?

13 A. I didn't understand your question.

14 Q. All right. Well, you must have been qualified, or your

15 supervisors and superiors must have seen something in you in order for you

16 to get promoted.

17 A. In order to be promoted, it goes without saying that I had to meet

18 certain conditions. In wartime, which qualifications would have been

19 required, that's a different question.

20 Q. All right. But you were in charge of training. So is it not fair

21 to say that by that point in time when they appointed you to train others,

22 that you, sir, were qualified for that position?

23 A. I was qualified for that position, yes.

24 Q. Right. And you held a fairly high position by the time you went

25 to Srebrenica back in July 1995, did you not?

Page 3258

1 A. I don't think it was a high position.

2 Q. All right. Well, you indicated that below Borovcanin on the

3 ground, there was you. Isn't that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. All right. And between you and Borovcanin, there was no one else.

6 Am I correct on that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And below you, there were about a hundred men that you were

9 responsible for. Isn't that a fact?

10 A. Yes, but we all answered to Mr. Borovcanin. That was the chain of

11 command.

12 Q. And below you was also a lieutenant colonel, as I understand it,

13 Mane? That was his nickname, Mr. Djuric? Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, and Mr. Nedjo Nikolic.

15 Q. All right. And so these were officers, high-ranking officers,

16 that were below you that you were in charge of. Is that correct?

17 A. They were subordinated to me, and I in turn was subordinated to

18 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Saric.

19 Q. That's not my question now. You were in charge of them; you were

20 responsible for them; you were giving them orders and they were answering

21 to you. Isn't that a fact?

22 A. Yes, I was giving them orders, and they were responsible to me.

23 Q. Now, I take it as a police officer over the years, one of the

24 skills that you develop is the skill of observation. Would you not agree

25 with me on that?

Page 3259

1 A. I was never trained for that especially.

2 Q. And today you are an inspector. Is that -- is that one of your

3 titles?

4 A. Yes, I'm an inspector. I draft training programmes and general

5 training, specific training.

6 Q. All right. Well, before you can train, you have to know how to do

7 it, right, how to inspect?

8 A. Well, of course you need to have command of the methods with which

9 you will then use to train people.

10 Q. Of course, of course. And one of the methods is to observe, to be

11 able to go out and look and see and assess what's happening within your

12 eyesight. Right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And I take it - we just saw you in the photograph - back on

15 July 12th, 1995, you had sunglasses on. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. That was to prevent the sun rays from interfering with your

18 powers, your God-given powers of observation. Right?

19 A. Well, the sunglasses, you know, you wear them to protect your eyes

20 from the sun, don't you?

21 Q. All right, okay. They were pretty stylish as well, but thud them

22 more or less -- aside from the fact that you wanted to be stylish, you had

23 them there to protect your eyes so you could see better under those

24 conditions with the sun shining in your eyes?

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, is that a relevant question?

Page 3260

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to get to it, Your Honour. I believe it

2 is, but I'll move on.

3 Q. Now, help me out, here: I find it rather incredible that someone

4 who is a trained inspector, a teacher, with good eyesight, who is also

5 protecting them with sunglasses is unable to see anything that's happening

6 in Potocari on those two days, the 12th and the 13th. Could you help me

7 out here. How is it that you were unable to see anything?

8 A. I told you what I'd seen. As for anything else, I didn't see

9 anything else. In that sense, I think I did make myself very clear.

10 Q. I guess -- but I'm asking you to help me out here. How is it that

11 everybody else is able to see things, and you, an inspector on the ground

12 in charge of a hundred men, is unable to see anything? How?

13 A. Well, how I was unable to see anything, I did see people, women,

14 children, I saw the buses, I saw the evacuation that was underway and so

15 on and so forth. That means I told you what I'd seen. I can't tell you

16 anything that I didn't actually see. It would be quite superfluous to

17 talk about things that I didn't actually see. That's how it was,

18 Mr. Karnavas. Not for a single moment as a human being, and now I'm

19 answering a different question, with the Court's permission, of course,

20 when you expect someone to train deserters, that is an act of humiliation

21 for that person who is expected to carry out that task. That's my view.

22 That was my angle of looking at those things. When those deserters were

23 handed over to me, that was a humiliation for me as a human being because

24 I was educated to respect everyone, to esteem everyone. What I'm telling

25 you now is a very general fact.

Page 3261

1 Q. All right. Well, we just saw some photographs of the deserters.

2 I don't know what you saw, but they seemed well fed, very well dressed,

3 and extremely well armed. What do you think?

4 A. I think they were poorly fed. I think they were poorly armed.

5 And I think their general -- the way they looked was quite miserable.

6 Q. All right. Well, Mr. Jevic, it's not permissible for me in this

7 context to use blunt language, but let me put it this way: I believe your

8 testimony with respect to what you were unable to see on the 12th and 13th

9 is dishonest. What do you have to say to that? I think you are being

10 dishonest in this courtroom, having taken an oath to tell us everything

11 that is true.

12 A. Mr. Karnavas, Your Honours, I am being utterly honest. I have not

13 a single reason as a human being to say or talk about anything that I did

14 not actually see with my own eyes. Please, try to understand this. I may

15 say some other things eventually, but please, don't force my hand to say

16 something that I didn't see and something that I was not aware of. And

17 that's how it is, Mr. Karnavas.

18 Q. Very well. If I could show you -- let's move to another topic,

19 then. And I want to -- we're going to move backwards. I'm going to pick

20 up where the Prosecutor left off. I would like you to look at what has

21 been marked for identification purposes as P159. That was a document that

22 was shown to you with the signature that is purportedly to be

23 Mr. Borovcanin's signature.

24 Now, I understand that you have some reservations with respect to

25 this document, not having seen it before, and not being able to verify

Page 3262

1 completely whether this is Mr. Borovcanin's signature. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. However, the document as was pointed out by the Prosecutor, and I

4 assume that this was shown to you before coming here today. Was it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. And it describes certain events over a period of time

7 starting with, I believe, -- well, on the second page, it says July 12th,

8 and then 13th, 14th, then 15th. And then we get to 16th and 17th and 18th

9 and 19th, all the way through the 20th. Is that correct?

10 A. Will you please repeat this.

11 Q. Okay. From the document itself, it seems to have a narration, at

12 least from the first page, and I apologise, it starts from the 10th, 11th,

13 12th of July, and it's a summary of events all the way to 20 July 1995.

14 If you look on page 4, you'll see that's the end date. Am I correct?

15 A. I left from the ground on the 19th of July. Now, as to what

16 happened in the area after the 19th, I couldn't say. But I did hear about

17 certain things happening. As for this document, I've already given you my

18 opinion.

19 Q. Okay. Well, I'm not asking for your opinion yet. Right now,

20 we're just trying to establish that this document here which has your

21 superior officer's signature to it, or purported signature, seems to be a

22 summary of events dating from the 10th of July all the way to the 20th

23 July.

24 A. I came to the area on the 11th of July.

25 Q. Sir, we just established -- we just established that you are an

Page 3263

1 educated man. Surely you can answer a simple question. Now, my question

2 is this document itself - I am not asking yet about the contents - this

3 document, does it not seem to be describing in rather general terms events

4 that took place from the 10th of July through the 20th of July?

5 A. I can't answer this question if I'm not sure at all who signed

6 this document, sir.

7 Q. I'm not asking you to verify who signed it. I'm asking you, does

8 it not give a general description of events that MUP were involved in from

9 the 10th of July to the 20th of July?

10 A. Generally speaking, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much.

12 Now, in looking at this document, which you have seen before

13 coming into this courtroom and which you had the pleasure of going over it

14 with the Prosecutor, do you not find your name in this document?

15 A. As I said, I'm not sure about who signed this document. But I did

16 find my name in it, and I was in the area. I did say that. And I am here

17 today. This is something that I have not tried to contest for a single

18 moment, sir.

19 Q. I just want to make sure that you saw your name in there. And I

20 take it where your name is, it describes events or activities that you

21 might have been involved in, does it not? I'm not saying whether it's

22 true or not, but the document does contain your name in relation to

23 activities that you might have been involved in.

24 A. Mr. Karnavas, I have given you my opinion on this particular

25 document, and I also told you about all the things that I had taken part

Page 3264

1 in. I have no reason to avoid anything.

2 Q. Mr. Jevic, I'm not asking for your opinion. I am asking whether

3 in reading this and seeing your name, does this document not also have

4 your name in relation to activities that you and your men were engaged in

5 at the time during this respective period?

6 A. That is in the document. But as for the connotations and how it

7 was written, when asked by the Prosecutor, I told the Court what happened

8 and how.

9 Q. Very well. All right. Thank you for that answer. Now, if we

10 could move to page 4 of your document, the B/C/S version, the Srpski

11 version, are you able to read this document, sir? Are you able to read

12 it? Is it legible enough for you to read?

13 A. Yes, yes, it is.

14 Q. Okay. All right. Now, when we get to the date July 17, 1995,

15 okay, there's nothing about you in it having to report to the Bratunac

16 Brigade or to Momir Nikolic -- let me back up. On the 16th, there's

17 nothing about you having to meet with Momir Nikolic at the Bratunac

18 Brigade, is there?

19 I'm not saying whether it's accurate or not; I'm just asking

20 whether it's in the document. It's a simple yes or no answer -- question,

21 I should say.

22 A. Here you have listed a number of activities, as far as I can tell

23 from looking at the document. Now as for me reporting to Mr. Nikolic and

24 the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade, it's not here, sir.

25 Q. All right. And we go to the 17th, there's nothing about you

Page 3265

1 attending any meeting with any -- with the commander of the Bratunac

2 Brigade, so you could be subordinated or resubordinated or however you

3 want to put it to the Bratunac Brigade, is there?

4 A. No, there isn't, sir. I'll repeat this. I have given you my

5 opinion on this document. I told you what my thoughts about it were. But

6 if you allow, I'll look at this document and tell you again. "The 18th,

7 two MUP companies from Jahorina continued to comb along the

8 Pobudje-Nova Kasaba axis."

9 Q. Well, I was getting to that. The 18th follows the 17th and

10 precedes the 19th. But that's what I was getting at. On the 18th, we do

11 have some mention that your company was involved in combing the terrain.

12 Now, on direct examination, you indicated that you were put under

13 the Bratunac Brigade during the searching of the terrain on the 17th. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And I take it that you had some sort of order allowing that to

17 occur.

18 A. All orders throughout that period of time, sir, were oral orders.

19 They were orally transmitted. Now, whether the officers at the Bratunac

20 Brigade had any written orders, I can't say. What I can say is on the

21 16th, I reported to Mr. Nikolic in the evening. On the 17th, I attended

22 the meeting. The task was agreed; the deployment of the forces was

23 agreed. And the communications modalities were agreed, the start line was

24 agreed. And as far as that's concerned, I have nothing further to add.

25 Q. All right.

Page 3266

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, we're almost out of time, Your Honour, I

2 believe. However, perhaps, if could be so kind overnight while you're

3 visiting The Hague here, you could look over the statement that you gave

4 to the Prosecutor back on 18 October 2000. And perhaps overnight, you can

5 look in it, and you can search it, and you can tell us where exactly in

6 your statement you indicate that you were subordinate to the Bratunac

7 Brigade, that you were asked to meet with Momir Nikolic on the 16th, and

8 how the Bratunac Brigade was in charge of this operation. And we'll pick

9 up from there tomorrow.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not clear if that was a rhetorical question or

12 a homework assignment --

13 MR. KARNAVAS: A homework assignment, Your Honour.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Your Honour, he's come a long way. I don't

15 know if he has the statement. But there's a lot of logistics involved in

16 such a request that need to be taken care of if it's going to happen.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I have the statement. It's copied. I can give it

18 to him. I can direct him. It's 70 pages, but he only needs to read about

19 20. I understand the gentleman may want to walk around the town and see a

20 little bit of The Hague. But we're in the middle of a trial, and I can do

21 it tomorrow page by page. It will take us a lot of time. I don't care.

22 Either way, Your Honour. But I want the gentleman to see where -- to show

23 me exactly where it is in the statement because I haven't been able to

24 find it. Maybe it's there someplace.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well --

Page 3267

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is rhetoric, this is game playing. It's not

2 serious. If it's not there, it's not there. And that's the question.

3 But if he truly wants this witness to see his statement, I have no

4 objection to that. But it's hard for me to separate the two.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, could I understand that there's no argument, no

6 debate, no different views on that previous statement that the matter of

7 resubordination is mentioned?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: That's correct, Your Honour. But also, I am going

9 to be going page-by-page where there are references to where they are

10 searching together. And also, with respect to who handles the prisoners

11 that they come across, the number of the prisoners. And so, I will be

12 going through that in great detail with the gentleman.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think in response to your question, Your Honour,

15 there is certain things in his previous statement that he does say that he

16 believes the MUP is under the command of the army.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: That's utterly --

18 JUDGE LIU: I don't want counsel to argue.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: My recollection is he says that, Your Honour. And

21 that he said that he believed General Krstic was in charge, and I believe

22 he spoke about the rules in his previous statement. So just to answer

23 your question, there may be a difference.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, since the Prosecution is not against this kind

25 of practice, and in the past we have done so during the break, I believe

Page 3268

1 that after the sitting, the Registrar will provide a copy of the statement

2 of this witness for him to read.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Which might - might - save some time for tomorrow's

5 proceedings.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I'm afraid you have to stay here for

8 another day. And during your stay in The Hague, you have to remember that

9 you are a witness in these proceedings, and you are under the oath. So do

10 not talk to anybody or do not let anybody talk to you about your

11 testimony. Do you understand that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

17 October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.