Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3269

1 Wednesday, 22 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Court Deputy,

7 call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

9 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Good morning, witness. Can you

11 hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

15 JUDGE LIU: And I believe that you have already reviewed your

16 statement yesterday?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I make a comment?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated yesterday that the document

24 signed by Mr. Borovcanin, I said that I wasn't sure whether it was his

25 signature or not. I think that that is not his signature, and if I may

Page 3270

1 suggest for that to be submitted to a handwriting expert.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you. I think in the redirect, the

3 Prosecution will ask some questions in this aspect.

4 Mr. Karnavas.


6 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I am, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

13 Q. Before I begin the questioning, good morning, Mr. Jevic. How are

14 you?

15 A. Good morning, I am fine, thank you.

16 Q. Before I ask the questions that I prepared, might I ask how is it

17 that you came up with this idea this morning that the signature was not

18 Mr. Borovcanin's? What was it that caused you to come up with this

19 revelation?

20 A. I wasn't sure about that signature and I said so yesterday and

21 then thinking about it and analysing that, the fact that Mr. Borovcanin is

22 my superior, and if we're talking truthfully and correctly, the report

23 where his signature is placed, that there's been something perhaps erased

24 or changed there and that is what made me come to this position.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, before we go into your statement as we

Page 3271

1 left off yesterday, I want to pick up first and discuss the order that was

2 presented to you, and I believe has been marked for identification

3 purposes as P157. And if we could give it to the gentleman.

4 Yesterday you were shown this order. Do you recall?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And yesterday you were asked by the Prosecution what was your

7 understanding of this order. What did you actually do pursuant to the

8 order. Do you recall that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. And I take it it was based on this order that you

11 began the mobilisation process, is that correct, in order to go to

12 Bratunac and then on to Potocari?

13 A. It says in my statement, and I explained here in the courtroom

14 yesterday, that Mr. Borovcanin came to me, to the Jahorina camp with a

15 written order and an oral order. And that is how I understood it and that

16 is how I responded to these questions.

17 Q. Okay. So in other words that order which is 157 for

18 identification purposes, P157, that order, even though you were copied

19 with it, you were served a copy of it, that was not the order that you

20 acted upon, rather from that order your supervisor Borovcanin prepared an

21 order for you, a specific order. Is that correct?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's a multi-part question again.

23 And it's also I believe a misstatement of the evidence.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll break it down but it's not a misstatement of

25 the evidence and if the Prosecutor is going to be making these comments, I

Page 3272

1 would ask Your Honour that he point specifically how I am

2 mischaracterising the evidence. I understand he wishes to protect his

3 witness, but if he's going to make comments like these on the record, he

4 should substantiate them.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, try to ask a very simple question.


7 Q. After you got a copy of this order, sir, it's your testimony that

8 Mr. Borovcanin came to you with another order. Is that correct?

9 A. I said in my statement that Mr. Borovcanin came to the Jahorina

10 camp to see me and said we have an order to go to Bratunac and that we

11 should get ready. So I carried out only the orders of my superiors. I

12 got the unit ready and went to Bratunac.

13 Q. Mr. Jevic, did Mr. Borovcanin tell you what units you should get

14 ready, how many men, what equipment to take, or did he just say we're

15 going off to Bratunac? What exactly did Mr. Borovcanin tell you?

16 A. Mr. Borovcanin said that he had an order that a company was to go

17 to Bratunac. The only equipment that we had at the time was what we could

18 take with us. That was all we had.

19 Q. That was the same order that you received a copy of. Right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And based on that order, Mr. Borovcanin then approached you and

22 told you what your responsibilities would be with respect to the mission

23 towards Bratunac. Is that correct?

24 A. He told me to go to Bratunac for an assignment and that there we

25 would receive a direct order.

Page 3273

1 Q. All right. Did he tell you how many men to take with you?

2 A. He said that a company was supposed to go, namely, that that is

3 what it says in the order.

4 Q. All right. And I take it it was your responsibility to form that

5 company?

6 A. It was my responsibility to prepare the company so that it could

7 travel.

8 Q. All right. And then you travelled along with company, did you

9 not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, when Mr. Borovcanin came to you, did he tell you that you,

12 MUP, that is, were subordinated or resubordinated to the VRS, and in

13 particular to General Krstic?

14 A. No, he didn't say that then.

15 Q. And so based on that order, you went to Bratunac on the 11th. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the first thing that you did is you found accommodations for

19 you and your men outside of Bratunac in some village. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, did you locate those accommodations or were they located for

22 you?

23 A. I don't remember, but I think that our accommodations were already

24 prepared for us.

25 Q. By whom? Was it MUP? Was it General Mladic, General Krstic,

Page 3274

1 General Zivanovic? Who was it who prepared those accommodations for you?

2 A. I don't remember, sir. When I came to Bratunac, I reported to

3 Mr. Borovcanin and I was told to go to find our accommodation at the

4 school in Bjelovac.

5 Q. All right. Sir, was it Mr. Borovcanin that directed you to your

6 accommodations?

7 A. As far as I recall, yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday you were asked some questions about the

9 rules. Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I understand it that it was your testimony that -- and I quote

12 here, and I'm quoting from page 27. It begins with line 6 -- or line 5.

13 The question was: "Were these rules related to who was in command when

14 the special police are working with the army?"

15 Do you recall being -- sir.

16 A. Just one moment, please.

17 Q. But I'm questioning you -- I'm not talking about your statement.

18 I'm reading from your -- I'm reading from your testimony, the transcript

19 that we have from yesterday, okay. So it won't be in the statement.

20 Okay?

21 A. Would you please repeat the question.

22 Q. Yes. Okay. The Prosecutor -- sir, it's not in that statement, so

23 you might as well put it down. We'll get to that statement, trust me. We

24 will get to it.

25 Now, according to the official transcript prepared by the

Page 3275

1 Tribunal, yesterday you were asked a question by the Prosecutor,

2 Mr. McCloskey who's sitting there. And the question was: "Were these

3 rules related to who was in command when the special police are working

4 with the army?" And the answer was, the answer that you gave: "The rules

5 that were applied, or rather, used at the time in the area had been taken

6 over from the former Yugoslavia where if there was an imminent threat of

7 war or a state of war, the police were resubordinated to the military, to

8 the army, and placed at the disposal of the army to use them as they saw

9 fit."

10 Do you recall making that statement, sir, yesterday on the record

11 under oath?

12 A. Roughly, as far as I know, that is what the rules state.

13 Q. Okay. And -- well I'm most particular in making sure that it's

14 your understanding of the rules, given your level of experience as an

15 inspector, as an assistant commander, as an instructor, that once

16 resubordinated, MUP is placed at the disposal of the army to use them as

17 they saw fit. In other words, that the army can use MUP as they see fit.

18 Is that your understanding of the rules and the law?

19 A. That is what the rules say in general.

20 Q. Okay. Now, might I ask, sir, given that you are an instructor, a

21 trainer, that you've had an opportunity to review the rules. Let me ask

22 the question again. As an instructor, have you consulted or do you

23 consult the rules?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, vague. There's quite a bit of rules.

25 If we could get more specific, it might be more helpful.

Page 3276

1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, do you have the rules at your hands?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: I do have the rules. I just want to get to the

3 general, because the Prosecutor yesterday used the word "rules". So I'm

4 using the same vague terminology that the Prosecutor used for which this

5 particular witness yesterday had no problem coming up with an answer.

6 JUDGE LIU: I think you had better directly show the rules to this

7 witness. That will be easier for everybody.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I don't want to argue with

9 the Bench.

10 Q. Okay. Sir, before coming here today, did you have a chance to

11 read the law on defence?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. And before coming here, did you have an opportunity to read

14 the law on the implementation of the law on internal affairs during

15 imminent threat of war or a state of war?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Are you familiar with those laws?

18 A. I did not read them myself, but I was informed about them.

19 Q. Okay. Might I conclude before I go to the rules that you don't

20 use these rules or these laws in your everyday training?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. All right. Well, let's just get to them. If I could show you

23 what has been marked for identification purposes as D60/1.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: For the record, I've only copied the relevant

25 portion, which is only one article, but we do intend to copy the entire

Page 3277

1 law, but I'm told that it was somewhat efficient this morning.

2 Q. Now, if you could look, sir -- and I should note that for the

3 record there is a number, a Prosecution number on top, it's 00848628 of

4 the first page.

5 Do you see this, sir? Do you see the document and does it not

6 appear to be from the Official Gazette of the RS?

7 A. Could you please tell me where this number is, 00 ...

8 Q. Okay. Just look at the title, sir. Look at the title that is in

9 Cyrillic. Does it not say Official Gazette?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And does it not say that this is a copy or is this not the

12 copy of the law on defence in the Official Gazette of the RS?

13 A. That's what it states here.

14 Q. Okay. And the date -- do you see a date there? Does it have a

15 date by any chance?

16 A. Yes. It says June 1st, 1992.

17 Q. Okay. Now, if you could go to Article 7, sir. Article 7, which

18 would be on the second page, and you go to subparagraph number 6, right.

19 So I'm going to read the top portion. It says: "As part of organising

20 preparation for defence, the president of the Serbian Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina shall," and then I go to 6. And it states "define the

22 organisation of the size of the police force, issue orders for the

23 deployment of the police in time of war, the imminent threat of war, and

24 during a state of war of emergency to protect the rights and duties of the

25 republic and its citizens stipulated in its constitution and laws."

Page 3278

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So would it be fair to say that based on this article here, that

4 it is the -- the MUP assets are under the direction or directed by the

5 president of the Republika Srpska?

6 A. Well, I cannot interpret that.

7 Q. Okay. All right. Now let's -- let me show you what has been

8 marked for identification purposes as D61/1.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: For the record, the Prosecution number begins with

10 00860442.

11 Q. If you could just look it over, flip through the pages, just so

12 you -- and look at the titles. Have you done that, sir?

13 A. Yes, I've seen the titles.

14 Q. Okay. Now, on the first page, we see that there is a decree, a

15 decree on the promulgation on the law, of the implementation of the law on

16 internal affairs during an imminent threat of war or a state of war. I

17 understand that may not -- you may not have that, but for the record

18 that's on the first page in the English version.

19 Okay. The first page that you have, sir, should have the law of

20 the implementation on the law of internal affairs. Do you see that? Do

21 you see the title, sir?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And does the title not read: "Law on the implementation on

24 the law of internal affairs during an imminent threat of war or state of

25 war"?

Page 3279

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, if you could look at article 1, article 1, does it not state,

3 sir, that this law regulates the procedure to be adopted by the Ministry

4 of Interior during an imminent threat of war or state of war. Does it not

5 state that?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. And you as part -- you being the special police force, were part

8 of the Ministry of Interior, were you not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So it would appear, would it not, sir, that this law would apply

11 to your unit, you yourself, and your commander, Borovcanin?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And as well as Mr. Kovac, who was, I believe, the deputy minister

14 at the time. Right?

15 A. Yes, I think he was the deputy minister.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. It's irrelevant what

17 Mr. Karnavas believes. This constant injection of his personal opinions

18 is just not relevant and not proper.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, first I think you have to

20 concentrate on this law and later on you may ask some relevant questions.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. But just for the record,

22 we do have a document that was introduced by the Prosecution as P175, and

23 the Prosecutor does know exactly what Mr. Kovac's position was. So I

24 believe the Prosecution is doing nothing but obstructing at this point.

25 Q. If we could go to article 4, sir. If you could look at article 4.

Page 3280

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, it states here in the first paragraph: "The ministry shall

3 be considered a part of the armed forces of the Republika Srpska and its

4 forces shall be under the command of the President of the Republika Srpska

5 as the commander-in-chief." Does it not state that?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. Okay. So in other words, you are serving under the command of

8 Karadzic at the time, who was the President of the RS?

9 A. Mr. Karadzic was the President of Republika Srpska at that point,

10 yes.

11 Q. All right. So under article 4, it would appear, would it not,

12 that you are under, MUP that is, in general, your unit as well, are under

13 the command of the President of the RS?

14 A. I know who my commander was, and the unit was commanded by the

15 minister of internal affairs. As far as any further chain of command is

16 concerned, I can't comment on that.

17 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if we could move to article 12. Does it

18 not state, sir, that "distinct from special purpose police units, the

19 Ministry of Interior shall establish special police units to carry out

20 combat tasks."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were in charge of a special police unit, were you not?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Well, what were you? Were you a regular traffic police?

25 A. I was not an officer of the special police at that time, not the

Page 3281

1 officer in charge. I was maybe number five in the pecking order as far as

2 the officers of the special police were concerned.

3 Q. But you were serving in the special police. Right?

4 A. I was a member of the special police, and this is something I've

5 never tried to deny.

6 Q. Okay. And I'm not saying that you denied it, but that special

7 police unit was established by the Ministry of Interior, right, if the law

8 was followed under article 12?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, we get to article 13. And if you just look at the

11 second -- we can read the whole thing, it's a short article. "Police

12 units shall participate in combat operations pursuant to an order issued

13 by the commander-in-chief of the armed forces and the minister of

14 interior."

15 Now, when it talks about the commander-in-chief of the armed

16 forces, we're talking about Karadzic, right?

17 A. I assume so, yes.

18 Q. And the Ministry of Interior, well we know that's high up the

19 chain of command from where you were serving, right?

20 A. Far above me, far above me.

21 Q. Okay. Then the next paragraph says: "The minister of interior

22 shall give orders to the police units through the ministry police forces

23 command staff." Does it not state that?

24 A. Yes, it does.

25 Q. Okay. Now we get to article 14. Let's read along. "Police units

Page 3282

1 assigned to combat operation by an order of the commander-in-chief of the

2 armed forces shall be resubordinated to the commander of the unit in whose

3 zone of responsibility they are performing combat tasks." Clear enough,

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then we'll read the whole article. "Police units shall be under

7 the direct command of a commander who is a member of the Ministry of

8 Interior. During the time they are resubordinated to the Army of

9 Republika Srpska, they shall retain their organisation and may not be

10 split up or separated." Right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, from this, just as an aside, this little paragraph basically

13 says, would you not agree with me, that the army cannot do whatever it

14 wishes with MUP when they are resubordinated?

15 A. I don't quite understand your comments, I'm afraid.

16 Q. Okay. Well, you said in your statement or in your testimony

17 yesterday that: "When they are subordinated, they are placed at the

18 disposal of the army to use them as they saw fit." So the army, however

19 they see fit, can use MUP. That was your testimony yesterday on page 27,

20 and I just read from lines 10 to 12.

21 A. Well, I said that we were resubordinated to the army as far as the

22 chain of command is concerned. It was in that sense that orders were

23 carried out that were given by the army. I meant nothing, aside from

24 that.

25 Q. Okay. Let's read on. The third paragraph in article 14 says:

Page 3283

1 "Police units resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska in a certain

2 zone shall be used only for combat operations established in advance by

3 the commander-in-chief or the minister of interior."

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, would you not -- this seems to indicate that in advance of

7 the combat operation, the commander-in-chief or the minister of interior

8 must establish exactly what it is that MUP is supposed to be doing.

9 Right?

10 A. I can't answer that question.

11 Q. Well, you're an educated man, are you not?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's not what it says, first of all.

13 It doesn't say "exactly".

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll reread it.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And now we're getting into this demeaning

16 questioning which, it just doesn't take us anywhere. I've not found

17 witnesses to be able to respond to this kind of demeaning question, no

18 matter who they are or what they previously testified to. I think it

19 demeans the process.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. McCloskey opened the door by asking him to

21 comment on the rules. Yesterday I indicated for them to present the

22 rules. He chose not to. I was told yesterday that I have free access to

23 go into this area. I locked the witness into indicating that he was

24 educated. He's an instructor. He indicated, in fact, that he felt

25 demeaned because he was in charge of people who had fled and were not

Page 3284

1 serving and that the implication being that obviously he should have been

2 at a higher position. He had an opinion yesterday --

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, let me ask the witness a question.

4 Witness, you said that you can't answer the question. Can you

5 tell us why.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a different level from mine,

7 the level required to answer this kind of question. I don't know about

8 this level of assignment. I can't offer any comments on that. Please

9 accept my apologies, Mr. Presiding Judge. I did require protective

10 measures for my testimony at one point, the reason was my respect for this

11 institution. The reason was my respect for the law.

12 Over the last ten years, my family and I had certain problems, but

13 that doesn't matter because those are my personal problems. However, then

14 I decided, Mr. President, to testify in public, in open session, because I

15 had nothing to hide. But please understand this: I cannot be made to

16 answer for the responsibilities of some other people that were far above

17 my station in terms of the chain of command. I have the education that I

18 have. I did what I did. I am not ashamed of what I did. I am here today

19 to answer fair questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the problem is that this question is

21 very complicated, Mr. Karnavas. And because of the difference and because

22 of the different training, this question may trigger the different

23 understandings than the interpretations.

24 Mr. Karnavas, could you split your question and use the simplest

25 language to come across your ideas.

Page 3285

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I will, Your Honour.

2 Q. Based on your response to the President's question, sir, am I to

3 understand that what we're discussing here right now, the law, is above

4 your level of knowledge and expertise?

5 A. Sir, I am no expert in legal matters. I can't interpret laws.

6 Q. So is the answer yes to my question?

7 A. Can you please repeat the question.

8 Q. Okay. I'll repeat the question. Based on your answers that you

9 gave to the President's inquiry, are we to understand that you are not

10 competent and lack the knowledge in commenting on the law and the rules

11 with respect to subordination and resubordination and the use of MUP by

12 the army?

13 A. I'm not competent to interpret these laws.

14 Q. Okay. So if you're not competent today, I take it you weren't

15 competent yesterday?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to that question, Your Honour. I was

17 clearly asking what his understanding of a simple rule was. He gave us

18 his understanding. It's actually pretty close to this rule and he said

19 that was his rough understanding. This is out of -- it's out of line.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I don't think he's out of the

21 line, but this is true that yesterday you asked a very simple question and

22 it seemed to me the witness answered this question.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I'll move on to the next

24 area.

25 Q. Now, based on -- I want to show you what has been marked for

Page 3286

1 identification as D62.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: And for the record, this, too, has a Prosecution

3 number on it. 00888578.

4 Q. If you could just look at that, sir, and we're going to focus on

5 the first two paragraphs, paragraph number one and paragraph number two.

6 If you could just look at it first.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. And if you look at the last page, the second page. Now, it seems

9 from the last page that this is an order by the supreme commander of the

10 armed forces of Republika Srpska, Dr. Radovan Karadzic. Is that correct?

11 A. That's what it appears to be, an order.

12 Q. Okay. And if we could look at paragraph number 1. Does it not

13 state that: "The main staff of the army shall henceforth define more

14 precisely and concretely their request for engagement and employment of

15 MUP units in combat in accordance with the provisions of article 14 of the

16 law and application of the law on interior affairs during imminent threat

17 of war and state of war, item 4 of the Official Gazette, Republika Srpska,

18 special edition number 1." Does it not state that?

19 A. Indeed it does.

20 Q. And article 14, as you recall, is the one we just went through.

21 Do you recall that? There's no need to look at the Prosecutor. You can

22 just answer the question.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Paragraph 2, "When MUP units are engaged in

25 combat as part of the VRS troops, the Republika Srpska MUP shall precisely

Page 3287

1 specify the responsibilities of the commanding officers and commanders

2 when they are resubordinated to the commander of the VRS unit in whose

3 area of responsibility they are carrying out their combat tasks, pursuant

4 to provisions of article 14 of the aforementioned law, with its order to

5 engage and subordinate for execution of the given assignment as per place

6 and time of the engagement on which to establish necessary coordination

7 with the GS VRS/Army of Republika Srpska." Does it not state that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, are you able to understand these two paragraphs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What exactly the supreme commanders --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, do not -- these two paragraphs actually are directing the VRS

14 to be very specific when engaging -- when MUP are being resubordinated to

15 them and to make sure that they strictly adhere to article 14 of the law

16 on the implementation, the one that we just read?

17 A. That's what the rules say.

18 Q. Okay. Well, that's what the rules say and this is what the

19 supreme commander is ordering, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if we could go to plaintiff's exhibit -- I

22 mean prosecution exhibit P157, the Kovac order of July 10, 1995. And if

23 you look at the last paragraph, which is paragraph number 5.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Now, I'll read it for the record and then we'll discuss it.

Page 3288

1 "On arrival at the destination, the unit commander shall contact

2 General Krstic, the corps chief of staff." Does it state that in Srpski?

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 Q. Now, I'm particularly interested in the word "contact." From this

5 word, does it say anything about resubordination?

6 A. Well, I can't comment on that. This is a matter of terminology.

7 Q. All right. When you say it's a matter of terminology, are you

8 suggesting that in Srpski, and in particular the way that word is used in

9 the military or MUP context, it has a different meaning?

10 A. I'm no expert in linguistic interpretation, therefore you can

11 hardly expect me to interpret this.

12 Q. All right. And so from your answer, I take it you can hardly

13 interpret that this means that MUP is resubordinated to the VRS, can you?

14 A. As I said yesterday, the MUP was resubordinated to the VRS.

15 Q. That wasn't my question. My question --

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. These statements are

17 unnecessary. They are out of line. They're not questions. It's just

18 argumentative.

19 JUDGE LIU: I think this is a very important issue and the Defence

20 counsel has the right to make it very clear, at least to us.

21 Maybe, Mr. Karnavas, you could change the form of your question

22 somehow.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right. Very well, Your Honour.

24 Q. From reading paragraph 5, are you suggesting here today, sir, that

25 "contact," the word "contact," means resubordination?

Page 3289

1 A. My understanding was that he should get in touch in order to

2 receive assignments.

3 Q. Well, does it say anywhere here on paragraph 5, "contact

4 General Krstic or the corps chief of staff so you can get assignments,

5 since you are now resubordinated to the VRS." Does it say anything of

6 that sort?


8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That is argumentative, Your Honour.

9 We can clearly see it doesn't say that. That's pure argumentative. It's

10 an important issue, I agree. But this does not help us get to the bottom

11 of it.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.


14 Q. Mr. Jevic, when Mr. Borovcanin, your supervisor, your boss, met

15 with General Krstic, were you present?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see anything in writing generated

18 as a result of the meeting, the contact, between your boss, Borovcanin,

19 and General Krstic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you have no idea of what was said at that time, do you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Now, I want to show you what has been marked for identification

25 purposes, again another Prosecution document. It's P109.

Page 3290

1 MR. KARNAVAS: And I have -- perhaps we could put this on the ELMO

2 as well. It might be ...

3 Q. If you could look --

4 MR. KARNAVAS: We have a copy in B/C/S here for the gentleman.

5 Okay.

6 Q. Now, did the Prosecution have a chance to share with you this

7 document that they have in their possession?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. If you flip to the second page, the last -- well, if you

10 look at the bottom of the page, there's a signature there, is there not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. That's Mr. Vasic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know Mr. Vasic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who is Mr. Vasic?

17 A. Mr. Vasic was the chief of the public security centre in Zvornik.

18 Q. And is he not MUP like you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So he, too, is under the Ministry of Interior, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. If we could look at the very first paragraph, not the ones

23 that are numbered, but the very top, starting with the first line.

24 "During the meeting held this morning with General Mladic, we were

25 informed that the VRS/Army of Republika Srpska/ is resuming with the

Page 3291

1 operation towards Zepa and is yielding all other tasks to MUP. These

2 tasks being," and it lists the tasks.

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Now, the date on this, is it not 13 July, 1995?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Now, it would appear that this is a letter or a memo. The

8 Prosecution has titled it CJB document, and it's addressed to the Ministry

9 of Interior of Republika Srpska. Do you see that?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. All right. And from this document, he being a MUP just like you,

12 would it not appear that the army is yielding, not ordering, certain tasks

13 to be carried out by MUP?

14 A. Based on this document, yes, indeed that's what it is.

15 Q. All right. All right. So the army is not ordering MUP. MUP is

16 on its own to do these tasks?

17 A. I can't comment on that.

18 Q. Okay. All right. Very well. Incidentally, now that you've read

19 your statement, the statement that you gave to the Prosecution back in 18

20 October, 2002, you make no mention of this order by Mr. Kovac of 10 July,

21 1995, do you?

22 A. As far as I know, I gave the statement before that year and I was

23 not aware of this order, and that's why I could refer to it. I do

24 believe, however, that I mentioned the deputy minister, Mr. Kovac's, order

25 in my statement.

Page 3292

1 Q. Okay. And you mentioned that based on this order it was your

2 understanding that you were subordinated?

3 A. I certainly was subordinated to Mr. Borovcanin. That was

4 according to the chain of command.

5 Q. Mr. Jevic, there is nothing in your statement with respect to this

6 order, that is the Kovac order that was addressed to you back on 10 July,

7 1995. Isn't that a fact?

8 A. I think that I did mention it in my order -- statement.

9 Q. Okay. Perhaps during the break you can find it, because I have

10 been unable to do so. Okay. Now I want to move on to another segment,

11 something different, and it's with respect to Mr. Nikolic. You know

12 Mr. Nikolic, do you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In fact, you knew him prior to July 11th, 1995, when you showed up

15 in Bratunac. Is that correct?

16 A. I think so, yes.

17 Q. Okay. Well, you think so or you know so? You either knew him or

18 you didn't know.

19 A. I think.

20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, yesterday I just want to first

21 discuss -- let me -- let's talk about -- I want to share with you what

22 Mr. Nikolic had to say when questioned by Mr. McCloskey here in court, and

23 I'm going to refer to the transcript. I have a copy for the ELMO. There

24 are four pages and we're going to go page by page. So if I could have the

25 indulgence of the usher to assist.

Page 3293

1 I'm going to read now from page 1684, questioning examination done

2 by Mr. McCloskey, witness Momir Nikolic, Monday 22 September, 2003, line

3 14. It says:

4 Q. What did Colonel Jankovic say to you?

5 A. Colonel Jankovic told me what my next assignment would

6 be. He said on the 12th I should work in Potocari and coordinate the

7 activities that were underway in Potocari itself and that I should give

8 instructions and that I should coordinate the evacuation of the civilian

9 population, of the women and the children, to coordinate work on the

10 separation of the men and the temporary transfer and detention."

11 Now, if we flip over to the next page which is 1685, we'll read

12 from line 5 --

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If he's going to comment, which I imagine that's

16 what he's doing, but if he's taking sections that are potentially out of

17 context, the comment may come out of context. I have no objection to a

18 comment on some key phrase, but I don't know how he's going to possibly

19 answer -- are we going to read back half the testimony? I mean, that is

20 an improper form of questioning. I mean if we can go one at a time and

21 keep it specific, I have no problem.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, in this situation, can you put

23 your question to this witness first.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I cannot.

25 JUDGE LIU: If --

Page 3294

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I cannot, Your Honour. Because he answered his

2 question yesterday and now what I'm attempting to do is give him an

3 opportunity to hear what Nikolic had to say when questioned by the

4 Prosecutor, not by Karnavas, but none other than the Prosecutor.

5 JUDGE LIU: Can you repeat your question yesterday and to see

6 after refreshment of the memory of this witness overnight there's any

7 changes. If not, you have the right to present your case to him.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. With all due respect,

9 however, I believe I should be entitled to do my cross-examination the way

10 I have organised it and not the way the Prosecution feels it should be

11 organised. I apologise if they wish to know in advance what I have to

12 say.

13 JUDGE LIU: I think, Mr. Karnavas, during the cross-examination it

14 is very important to let us, the Judges, to understand your point.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, that's why I'm going from the general

16 to the specific. That's why I took the time to do all of this and then I

17 was going to point him to his particular, but I'll do it the reverse.

18 I'll rework it, Your Honour, I'll be flexible.

19 JUDGE LIU: I think the aim is the same. The approach could be

20 varied.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand. Very well, very well.

22 Q. Okay. Let's look at what you stated yesterday when you were being

23 questioned by the Prosecutor himself. Now, at one point and I'm making a

24 reference -- I'm referring you to page 38, and it's line 14, it states,

25 and this is you, sir, "In conversation in Banja Luka, during the interview

Page 3295

1 in Banja Luka in 2001 or 2000, I heard that Mr. Nikolic said that I was

2 the one who coordinated the separation of the people in Potocari together

3 with him, but I responsibly state that that is not so," and then you go

4 on. That was the first reference.

5 Now, on the second page, on another page, and now I'm referring to

6 page 40. I'm going to go from page 40 on to 41. I'm starting with line

7 17. This was yesterday.

8 Q. In July of 1995, did you know who Momir Nikolic was?

9 Same question I asked you today.

10 A. I knew Momir Nikolic from before.

11 No equivocation. You say that you knew him. Then next question

12 by Mr. McCloskey himself:

13 Q. Did you have any contact with Momir Nikolic on the 12th

14 of July?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Did you see Momir Nikolic in Potocari on the 12th of

17 July?

18 A. When you talked with me, I also said that I did not

19 remember.

20 Q. I know we have gone over things and I know it's

21 repeating, so did you see Mr. Nikolic on the 12th of July?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. And you're aware that Momir Nikolic has stated that he

24 communicated with you regarding the transportation of Muslim citizens from

25 Potocari on the 12th and 13th. What do you have to say about that?

Page 3296

1 A. I must say that I as a man honourably on the 12th and

2 13th did not -- did what I was ordered to do. And the statements by

3 Momir Nikolic are not correct, and I think that has nothing to do with me.

4 I either as a person or as a police officer would not permit myself to

5 commit such acts.

6 Mr. Nikolic didn't say that he committed any acts of abuse -- this

7 is a question.

8 Q. Mr. Nikolic didn't say that you committed any acts of

9 abuse as I recall. He said that you were just organising the

10 transportation of the Muslim prisoners in regard to what he -- in regard

11 what he said about you.

12 And then you go on, and this is on line 16, you state, "I simply

13 directed the people. I turned around the trucks and the buses."

14 That was your testimony, sir, yesterday. Do you recall that?

15 A. I recall the testimony of yesterday, not in such a context. I

16 think that perhaps I did not state that so decisively. I can confirm that

17 on the 12th, I was in Potocari, that I did what I was ordered to do. And

18 I said that I do not recall seeing Mr. Nikolic in Potocari. I, again, say

19 that I do not remember. I was busy on my own tasks. At that point, I was

20 working as a signalsman. I was turning the buses around. People --

21 during my questioning in Banja Luka, I was shown a tape of some men.

22 Later I heard that Mr. Nikolic said that I was the one who took part in

23 the separation of men and women. I responsibly state that the only things

24 that I did was turning around the buses and the trucks, people were

25 entering them, and then they were leaving on the road in the direction of

Page 3297

1 Kladanj. I stand by my statement. I find that no additional comments are

2 necessary. I'm very sorry that somebody is trying to represent this in

3 some other way. I do not recall seeing Nikolic. So I simply cannot say

4 that I remember doing so.

5 Q. Okay. All right. So I take it now your testimony is that you did

6 know, you did in fact know, Momir Nikolic prior to the 11th of July, 1995.

7 Can we establish that?

8 A. I think that I knew him before that date.

9 Q. Okay. Now, I would like to refer to you what he has said on the

10 record under oath, about being questioned by Mr. McCloskey, and then have

11 your comment on this. And I'm reading from page 1685 of the official

12 transcript. Monday the 22nd of September, 2003.

13 Q. Did Colonel Jankovic refer you to any particular person

14 to conduct these duties in Potocari?

15 A. He, he told me that as for coordinating those duties that

16 were part of the operation I should speak with Mr. Jevic who was a member

17 of the special brigade of the MUP.

18 Dusko Jevic.

19 Q. Did you know who Dusko Jevic was at the time?

20 A. Yes, I knew Dusko Jevic personally. I know him from

21 before the operation, but at that time I didn't know precisely what his

22 role in Potocari was. I knew he was a member of the special brigade of

23 the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but I didn't know what specifically his

24 role was.

25 And then further down on line 19,.

Page 3298

1 Q. At that time did you know the hierarchy between

2 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Jevic?

3 A. Well, roughly yes, I was aware of it. I knew

4 Mr. Borovcanin was Mr. Jevic's superior.

5 Now, Mr. Jevic, now that you have heard what Mr. Nikolic has said,

6 do you still maintain that you had no contact with him on that particular

7 day of the 12th and that he did not give you any orders or was not

8 assisting you in coordinating the activities in which you were involved?

9 A. I said that I do not remember. I cannot say decisively. I simply

10 stated that I do not remember.

11 Q. So it's a possibility. Are you now suggesting that the

12 possibility exists that Momir Nikolic was giving you orders on what you

13 should be doing on that particular day?

14 A. I said that I do not recall seeing or communicating with

15 Momir Nikolic. Any other comments would just be superfluous or any

16 conclusions I could draw on my part.

17 Q. Let me go on and I'm reading from page 1690, 1690. I'll start

18 with line 17, again being questioned by Mr. McCloskey himself.

19 Q. Did you carry out the instructions that you had heard

20 from Kosoric, Popovic, and Colonel Jankovic?"

21 This is to Nikolic.

22 A. Yes, I did exactly what I had been ordered to do, exactly

23 in the way in which I was issued instructions.

24 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what you did?

25 A. Yes. When the first buses arrived or, rather, just

Page 3299

1 before, I got in touch with Mr. Jevic. I told him how the evacuation

2 should be conducted and what his role was in connection with the buses,

3 organising those buses, and other issues related to the transport of the

4 civilian population. Then I gave instructions to units who were

5 separating the men from the rest, I gave them instructions to separate all

6 military-aged men in Potocari, and I showed them the house in which these

7 men were to be temporarily detained. After that, I said the men would be

8 taken to other facilities that were assigned for the temporary detention.

9 Now, Mr. Jevic, have you --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now that you have heard what Mr. Momir Nikolic has stated in this

12 very same courtroom, do you still maintain that Momir Nikolic did not give

13 you any orders or assignments?

14 A. I stated that I do not remember and I stated that the order from

15 Kovac was something that I received from my superior.

16 Q. Let me be a little more precise. What you've stated, and correct

17 me if I'm wrong, is that you don't recall seeing Mr. Nikolic on that

18 particular day. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You don't recall having contact with Mr. Nikolic that day?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Now, you're also saying today that you don't recall whether

23 Mr. Nikolic actually ordered you or gave you instructions on that day?

24 A. I stated that I do not recall seeing him or talking with

25 Mr. Nikolic. The instructions from the Kovac order I received from my

Page 3300

1 superior, Mr. Borovcanin, and I cannot say that I remember something if I

2 do not remember it.

3 Q. All right.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe it -- I can continue or we can take a

5 break, Your Honour. It's up to you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll break until 10 minutes to 11.00.

7 --- Break taken at 10.18 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, please continue.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. For the record, I want to

11 bring to everyone's attention, especially to Mr. Jevic's attention, that

12 he did, in fact, in his statement indicate the order from Mr. Kovac who he

13 believed at the time was the deputy minister and it is on page 14, line 6

14 to 10, page 10, line 25-26 and then to the next page in B/C/S. So you

15 were correct, sir, and I do apologise. I also want to apologise this

16 morning for being on the short end of my nerves. Something in the coffee,

17 perhaps.

18 Q. Now, if we could get back to Potocari on 12th July, 1995. Based

19 on your statement and based on your testimony, it appears that you were

20 taking all of your instructions from your superior officer,

21 Mr. Borovcanin. Is that correct?

22 A. I received my orders from Mr. Borovcanin.

23 Q. All right. As I recall, you and Mr. Borovcanin were in Potocari

24 sometime at 9.00 in the morning, 9.30?

25 A. 9.00, 9.30, something like that.

Page 3301

1 Q. And at that point, he had given you some basic instructions as far

2 as what you would be doing and what your men would be doing. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. In that period, Mr. Borovcanin had met with General Mladic near a

5 house. They spoke. I'm not aware of what they talked about. Before

6 that, instructions were issued that the evacuation would proceed the next

7 day and that we would take part in that evacuation.

8 Q. But that was on the -- we're talking about the 12th, the morning

9 of the 12th.

10 A. We received the Kovac order already on the 11th, meaning that the

11 agreement had been reached and that the next day Potocari would be

12 evacuated.

13 Q. All right. So when you went to Potocari, Mr. Borovcanin was there

14 as well, was he not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And your company commanders were there as well, were they not?

17 A. One company commander.

18 Q. And was that Mr. Djuric?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I think he has an nickname Mane. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I take it he was tasked as well, was he not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And he was under your command, was he not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3302

1 Q. And so while you were in Potocari on the 12th, the orders were

2 coming to you from Mr. Borovcanin and then you would direct your men,

3 including your company commander, as far as what they would be doing

4 during that day. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, I take it that Mr. Nikolic, if he were -- if he were

7 to give any instructions to you personally, since your commanding officer

8 was there at the time, Mr. Borovcanin, would it not be under the proper

9 military chain of command that he would go through Mr. Borovcanin and not

10 to you directly?

11 A. I don't understand.

12 Q. Okay. Well, let's assume hypothetically speaking that

13 Colonel Jankovic had given a particular task to Momir Nikolic. If you

14 were receiving all of your orders from your commander, Mr. Borovcanin, and

15 if Mr. Borovcanin was still in the area, as you've indicated, would

16 Mr. Nikolic not have to go through Mr. Borovcanin to give you the orders?

17 A. I really don't know.

18 Q. Okay. You don't understand.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The witness said he didn't know.

21 These gratuitous comments again. I hate to keep objecting, but it's

22 improper for him to be making these gratuitous comments.


24 Q. Could someone from another unit give you an order directly in

25 Potocari on the 12th if your commander, Mr. Borovcanin, was there?

Page 3303

1 A. I don't understand. From what other unit?

2 Q. Well, let's just say that Colonel Pandurevic was there from the

3 Zvornik Brigade and he decided that he wanted to give Stalin an order and

4 Mr. Borovcanin was there. Could Pandurevic give you an order directly or

5 would he have to go through Borovcanin?

6 JUDGE LIU: Well --

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. I do not object to

8 hypothetical questions to this witness, but if they're going to be related

9 to the facts, as this one was, Potocari, they need to be based on the

10 facts, and this one was not. We don't have any facts that Mr. Pandurevic

11 was around. It is not improper to give him a hypothetical, a general

12 military-type hypothetical, but if he's going to bring it into the

13 Potocari arena, it needs to be based on the facts.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: May I ask, Your Honour --

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, usually this kind of question is not

16 allowed, but in this situation, the purpose of the Defence counsel is to

17 know the commander chain, how does the order goes, so we allow

18 Mr. Karnavas to move on.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Do you remember the question that was asked of you, Mr. Jevic?

21 A. Will you please repeat the question.

22 Q. Okay. Let's say an officer from another unit, not MUP, outside of

23 MUP, wished to give you a direct order to do something, if Mr. Borovcanin,

24 your commander, was there at the scene, would he not have to go through

25 your commander to give the order and not to you directly?

Page 3304

1 A. Well, naturally, the order could only be passed on through

2 Mr. Borovcanin. I must say that throughout the period, General Mladic was

3 present, too.

4 Q. All right. And General Mladic was giving orders as well, right?

5 A. Well, most probably.

6 Q. All right. But now with respect to Mr. Nikolic, you can't compare

7 Momir Nikolic, a reserve captain, and General Mladic, can you?

8 A. Of course not.

9 Q. All right. Now, before we move on to the next section, on that

10 particular day, on the 12th, was there a situation where you had taken a

11 leave of absence of your duties while you were -- while you came across a

12 Mercedes Benz bus that was worth approximately 2 million Deutschmarks? Do

13 you recall that incident? Was it that day or the next day?

14 A. I'm not sure on which day that happened. The bus was handed over

15 to Bratunac municipality.

16 Q. Are you sure it was handed over and you didn't just take it to try

17 to sell it in Bijeljina?

18 A. Sir, never in my life was I a thief, which you are obviously

19 trying to insinuate. I never tried anything like that. My orders were

20 for the bus to be handed over to Bratunac municipality.

21 Q. And was that an order that was given to you by your commander,

22 Mr. Borovcanin?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if he would have told the Prosecutor somewhat differently,

25 would you still maintain your position that you had received an order from

Page 3305

1 Mr. Borovcanin to take this Mercedes Benz bus that was worth approximately

2 2 million Deutschmarks and go off to Bijeljina?

3 A. No. My order from Mr. Borovcanin was to hand the bus over in the

4 area of Bratunac municipality.

5 Q. Okay. Very well. Let's move on to another area, and now I want

6 to move ahead to the 16th of July. I believe it was your testimony

7 yesterday that you indicated that you were advised or ordered to report to

8 the Bratunac Brigade on the evening of the 16th to meet with

9 Momir Nikolic. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. That was your testimony yesterday?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. And I assume the testimony today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, in reviewing your statement, did you notice anywhere in your

16 statement where you indicated that you had been ordered by your commander,

17 Mr. Borovcanin, to report to the Bratunac Brigade on the evening of the

18 16th to meet with Momir Nikolic. Is there anything in your statement

19 about that?

20 A. There is no reference to that in my statement, but during my

21 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor, I pointed out all these

22 corrections to be made. I did say I remembered a number of additional

23 details, and I did make it very clear after all.

24 Q. So when you met with them to prepare for your examination here

25 today a couple days ago, that's when you remembered that you had been

Page 3306

1 ordered on the 16th by Mr. Borovcanin to meet with Momir Nikolic. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Okay. And it's your understanding that on the following day you

5 attended a meeting. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And during that meeting the issue of searching a particular area

8 of the terrain was discussed. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the area was divided as to who would search which area. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you indicated yesterday that during this meeting that -- it's

14 somewhat unclear, that whether you actually met with the commander of the

15 Bratunac Brigade or whether it was with the staff of the Bratunac Brigade.

16 Would you clarify that.

17 A. I was at the staff of the Bratunac Brigade for that meeting. I

18 said I could not quite remember whether the commander was actually in

19 attendance at the meeting.

20 Q. And, of course, yesterday you indicated that you did not know

21 Mr. Blagojevic at the time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, when you say you didn't know, is that -- do you mean that you

24 did not have the opportunity to be introduced to him or you didn't know

25 what he even looked like?

Page 3307

1 A. I don't think I even knew what he looked like back then.

2 Q. And would it be fair to say that even during that staff meeting or

3 the meeting that was held for the staff of the Bratunac Brigade on the

4 morning of the 17th, you still did not know what Mr. Blagojevic looked

5 like?

6 A. I have just said that I didn't know what he looked like.

7 Q. All right. And I take it, based on your testimony today and your

8 memory, such that it is, that you have no recollection of actually meeting

9 and speaking with the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, do you, sir?

10 A. As I said, I attended the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade, where

11 an agreement was to be reached to search the terrain. And I said I didn't

12 remember whether the commander of the Bratunac Brigade actually attended

13 the meeting.

14 Q. All right. You indicate that there is this meeting. I take it

15 you have some notes or something to reflect that a meeting took place?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. Okay. And what if I were to tell you that Momir Nikolic, who

18 seemed to be an awfully cooperative witness for the Prosecution, never

19 mentioned anything about meeting you on the evening of the 16th in order

20 for you to attend a meeting on the 17th. What would you say about that?

21 A. Well, I'm only telling you what I was ordered to do and what I was

22 supposed to carry out. I can't comment on anyone else's statements.

23 Q. All right. And, of course, you indicated yesterday that you did

24 not know whether Momir Nikolic attended the meeting. Right?

25 A. I know that the meeting was held. I know that certain activities

Page 3308

1 were agreed as well as the deployment of forces, including the start line

2 for this search. As to who attended the meeting, I've already said I

3 don't remember.

4 Q. But you knew Momir Nikolic, did you not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. And assuming that there was a meeting and assuming

7 that you attended this meeting, you would have seen Momir Nikolic, had he

8 been there. Right?

9 A. Draw whatever conclusion you like. I told you, I don't remember

10 who was at the meeting.

11 Q. Well, you were asked a question: "Was Momir Nikolic there?" And

12 I'm quoting from page 57, line 9, from yesterday's testimony of the

13 transcript of yesterday. And your answer was: "I don't know." You did

14 not state that you don't remember. You said that you don't know.

15 A. Well, now I'm telling you, I don't remember, sir.

16 Q. Okay. So you want to correct your answer from yesterday. Is that

17 correct? You want to correct your answer from yesterday?

18 A. I don't remember, sir.

19 Q. Okay. All right. And then you were asked: "Who was in command

20 of this operation?" And you indicated that it was a Captain Gavric. Do

21 you recall that?

22 A. Captain Gavric was in command of the military and I was in command

23 of the police.

24 Q. Okay. So there were two commanders there, as far as you

25 understand, with respect to this searching operation?

Page 3309

1 A. There were several commanders, but Captain Gavric was the

2 coordinator for both groups and so was I.

3 Q. So now he's not just a commander, but also he's a coordinator.

4 A. We coordinated the work.

5 Q. Okay. Now, coordination is rather different from resubordination,

6 is it not?

7 A. Yes. Coordination is something different.

8 Q. Okay. So when you say that you were coordinating with

9 Captain Gavric, you are not suggesting, sir, are you, that you were

10 subordinated or resubordinated to the Bratunac Brigade and you are under

11 the command of Captain Gavric, are you, sir?

12 A. I was in the zone of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade.

13 Q. Sir, I wasn't asking you where you were located at that time. We

14 all know that. Do you remember my question?

15 A. Will you please repeat it.

16 Q. Okay. You indicated that you were coordinating this activity,

17 this searching activity, with Captain Gavric. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. Now, coordination, we've already established, is

20 different than resubordination, right? There's no sense in looking at the

21 Prosecutor, just answer the question.

22 A. Well, I'm not looking at the Prosecutor. We sent a report

23 concerning events on the ground to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters. And

24 if you judge by that, this might imply that we were resubordinated to the

25 Bratunac Brigade.

Page 3310

1 Q. I'm not asking you what it implies. I'm asking you to answer my

2 questions. Now, you indicated that you were there commanding your men and

3 coordinating with Captain Gavric. Is that your testimony, yes or no?

4 A. Yes, coordinating with Captain Gavric and I was at the meeting of

5 the command of the Bratunac Brigade, and it was there that I received my

6 order.

7 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that coordination is different from

8 resubordination. Correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you were not under the command of Captain Gavric while you

11 were searching the terrain there, were you, sir?

12 A. We were searching the ground and the command was located at the

13 Bratunac Brigade staff headquarters.

14 Q. You were not under the command of Captain Gavric, were you, sir?

15 A. No, I wasn't.

16 Q. Okay. So you were not resubordinated and under the command of

17 Captain Gavric of the Bratunac Brigade, were you, sir?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that is a multi-part question.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, your microphone is --

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a multi-part question. It's an important

21 question, but we're not sure which part the answer will be to.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll break it down, Your Honour. I'll break it

23 down.

24 Q. You were not resubordinated to the Bratunac Brigade?

25 A. I received my assignment at the Bratunac Brigade. That means that

Page 3311

1 I was resubordinated to the Bratunac Brigade. The search was coordinated

2 my Captain Gavric on behalf of the military and by myself on behalf of the

3 police.

4 Q. So, Captain Gavric was able to direct you and your men as far as

5 what you should do? He could give you orders?

6 A. Captain Gavric commanded men on the ground, just like I did.

7 Q. Stalin --

8 A. As for reporting.

9 Q. Stalin, did he give you orders?

10 A. As far as I'm concerned, I don't know if he gave me orders, but

11 certainly he had to give orders to his men.

12 Q. I'm asking if he gave orders to Stalin and if he gave orders to

13 Stalin's men, and you're Stalin. Did he give you orders, Stalin, yes or

14 no, and you would know that?

15 A. We received our orders from the command of the Bratunac Brigade,

16 sir.

17 Q. All right. Well, let's look and see what Mr. Gavric had told the

18 Prosecutor when he was interviewed by the Office of the Prosecution on 28

19 November, 2001. And now I'm referring to what has been premarked for

20 identification as D18/3. Incidentally, Mr. Jevic, are you -- do you enjoy

21 the status of suspect as we speak right now?

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's not a proper question.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I will get to that later, Your Honour.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed to

25 answer this, please?

Page 3312

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Witness, the counsel has promised that we

2 will come back to this question. Maybe you can answer that question when

3 he comes back and not now.


5 Q. If we could look at page 24, lines 3 through 6, and in the local

6 version, in the B/C/S version, I don't seem to have it. According to

7 Mr. Gavric he says: "I was there on behalf of the command of the

8 Bratunac Brigade to link up and prevent any stupidities done in the field.

9 The commander knew that I had a large influence on a lot of soldiers and

10 officers." Now, Mr. Gavric says that he's there to link up. This is on

11 page 24, lines 3 to 6.

12 Now, if we could go through page 29, and I believe it's on page 25

13 of your version, the Srpski version. Line 5:

14 Question: "Okay. Were you in command of this group of men?"

15 This is a question being posed to Gavric.

16 "I was not in command of that group, if you understand. I came on

17 behalf of the command of the brigade just to link them up, link up the

18 police and Zekic because they didn't know each other personally."

19 Question: "Was Zekic remaining behind, were you in command?"

20 Gavric: "No, all three of us went down in the field. We were in

21 radio communication. We all went down towards the road."

22 Now, if you go further down on the same page, line 19:

23 "When you met up with these units and when you were there to link

24 them up, did you pass on them what your commander had told you?"

25 Gavric: "When we talked about that, I first only passed

Page 3313

1 information that in that area, according to our information, there was no

2 one, and if you come across someone, bring him to us and report that to

3 us. The people who are responsible for that, that they can have

4 informative discussions with them whether there were any more Muslims in

5 the area or not."

6 I'm moving on to page 30.

7 "But my question is when you met up with these units and you were

8 explaining that they were explaining what was going to happen, did you

9 pass on to them the comments of your commander?"

10 "Yes, I did it right here, I did it right there."

11 Question: "In Sandici, where you linked up?

12 "That's where I presented that all to them. That is the area we

13 were going to search where we believed there was no enemy soldiers, but if

14 there was some left behind, they would have to report that to us and bring

15 them to us so that we would have official information whether there was

16 anybody or not."

17 And finally, if we could go to page 31.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: This reading of transcript is improper. There's

21 no impeachment, there's no refreshment of recollection, there's no point

22 that I can see to it. This is taking another witness who is not here to

23 be cross-examined... If there's a point, he can get to it.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: I think Mr. Karnavas is going to finish the reading,

Page 3314

1 so we are waiting for your question, Mr. Karnavas.


3 Q. And let me read one other portion with respect to this issue,

4 which is the issue of linking up with Mr. Gavric who was a Prosecution

5 witness who was taken off the list just recently. Page 31, line 1, you'll

6 find it on page 26 to 27 of the Serbian version.

7 I read:

8 "You told me earlier that when you were talking to your commander,

9 you were going to the field to prevent any stupidity. First of all, what

10 did that mean?"

11 "It's human talk. We were aware that in a certain group of armed

12 men, there are people who were consciously or not consciously willing or

13 ready to do something stupid because in that, let's say, group there were

14 probably people who lost son, or father or mother or brother or something,

15 and they considered that their only opportunity to do something. And

16 that's the reason I did it the way I did it. And that was the reason the

17 commander told me what he did."

18 Question: "And did the commander tell you to go in the field to

19 stop that sort of stupidity or that was just understood?"

20 "He told me to go and link them up. Those two units, in fact,

21 those two commanders, because I knew them personally. And probably

22 knowing me as a person, that if I go to carry out a certain task, it will

23 be done properly, militarily."

24 Now, my question is: According to Mr. Gavric, another Prosecution

25 witness, he seems to indicate that he was not in command, he was not

Page 3315

1 commanding you, he was not ordering you, but he was there merely to link

2 you up with another unit of the Bratunac Brigade so you could coordinate

3 the searching.

4 A. There were several units there. We were all on an assignment, an

5 assignment that had been given to us, and that was to search the terrain

6 from the start line, the start line I referred to yesterday in my

7 testimony. So we coordinated units. The area had been unmowed during the

8 war and it was hill-side. There had to be coordination and I carried out

9 coordination as well as Captain Gavric. We were both carrying out our

10 orders, orders given to us at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, the order

11 to search the terrain.

12 Q. I understand that. But we're talking about the issue of who was

13 in command and whether you were resubordinated to the Bratunac Brigade and

14 we seem to be getting some conflicting answers from you.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is never-ending. This is not a question.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we understand your point. I think

19 you have done whatever you could.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on to another question, but in the same

21 area, Your Honour. Hopefully...

22 Q. Is it your understanding, sir, that in a situation such as this

23 one where you're searching the terrain and you have MUP and military

24 coordinating and working side by side, that this operation can only be

25 done if there's resubordination of the MUP to the army? Is that your

Page 3316

1 understanding of the rules?

2 A. Could you please repeat the question.

3 Q. Okay. Not a problem. In this situation, MUP was asked to

4 participate in a searching of the terrain with other units, including the

5 Bratunac Brigade. Is it your understanding under the rules that MUP could

6 only assist in this sort of operation if it were to be resubordinated to

7 the military?

8 A. The MUP could assist the military and be resubordinated to the

9 military. I don't think I understand your question sufficiently, to a

10 sufficient degree. Can I have some clarification of that, please.

11 Q. Okay. Well, my question is: Does MUP necessarily have to be

12 subordinated or can they coordinate and assist in a task while still

13 maintaining their own command?

14 A. I tried to explain to you that every sector of the terrain that

15 was searched, I and Captain Gavric engaged the people, the line of the

16 search, so that the people would not get separated, so that the personnel

17 could carry out the task.

18 Q. And my question is: Is it your understanding that you had to be

19 resubordinated to the Bratunac Brigade in order for you to carry out the

20 searching operation or you could not participate at all?

21 A. As soon as we received our task at the Bratunac Brigade, we became

22 resubordinated.

23 Q. Okay. That's your understanding?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Under what -- under what rule are you relying on?

Page 3317

1 A. I don't understand.

2 Q. On what basis did Mr. Borovcanin tell you, "I'm sending you to

3 Bratunac. You're going to be resubordinated. You're going to be under

4 their command. They will do what they please with you," as you seem to

5 indicate the rules apply.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. It's not a

8 serious question.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: It's a very serious question, Your Honour.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's totally improper, then, Your Honour, if he's

11 actually telling us he's serious. "Do as they please with you." This is

12 nothing that has come out of this witness's mouth. This is Mr. Karnavas

13 making argument.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: As they may dispose of however they wish. I'll use

15 his own term.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, we have been on this question for quite

17 a long time and I don't think you could get more from the answer of this

18 witness on this subject.


20 Q. Well, let me turn to you -- to what another Prosecution witness

21 has testified, at least with respect to this particular issue, and this

22 was Mr. Obrenovic who testified after he had already made an agreement

23 with the Prosecution to fully cooperate and testify truthfully, the

24 implication being that there would be no motive for him to fabricate.

25 And I want to show you a portion of his statement, the statement

Page 3318

1 that was taken from him after he entered a plea, and for identification

2 purposes is D52/1. I will be referring to page 110. Now, I just want to

3 read for the record lines 10 to 22. This is a question by Peter McCloskey

4 himself to Mr. Obrenovic when he gave his statement after he pled guilty,

5 the statement being taken on 4 June, 2003:

6 "Okay, the MUP were under the command of the army at this time.

7 Is that right?"

8 Answer: "On the 19th, I don't think that it was."

9 Unintelligible. "We were conducting the sweeps separately. After the

10 corridor was closed, each group was conducting its sweeps separately.

11 Already on the 18th and further..." Unintelligible. "On the 22nd, there

12 was a joint operation between the asphalt road and the general road in

13 which combined units participated."

14 Peter McCloskey, question: "It's hard for me to imagine the MUP

15 working in the same woods that you are working in without being under the

16 control of the army. That would be a very dangerous situation for both of

17 you.

18 Answer: "You are correct, but it was separate."

19 Now, my question to you is this: Based on what Mr. Obrenovic has

20 told the Prosecutor in a statement after he had admitted his guilt, would

21 you agree or disagree with his interpretation, that is, that MUP can be

22 searching side by side with an army unit and not necessarily be

23 resubordinated to it?

24 A. We -- I can give you my statement in relation to what I did. As

25 far as I can see, this is about events after the 18th. Already on the

Page 3319

1 19th, I had left this territory. So what was done later out in the field,

2 I really don't know. His interpretation, I don't know how the units were

3 operating out in the field in order for me to be able to interpret what he

4 stated.

5 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday I believe you indicated that there were

6 about 200 men that were captured. Is that correct?

7 A. Roughly about 200 surrendered.

8 Q. And it was your testimony that they were turned over to Mr. Gavric

9 and not to Stalin.

10 A. They surrendered to Mr. Gavric and to Mr. Stalin, whatever you

11 wish. Then buses were requested. They were ordered on the buses. And

12 they went in the direction of Zvornik.

13 Q. Well, they were turned over to you, were they not, sir, except the

14 children?

15 A. I don't recall. I know that we handed the children over to

16 Captain Gavric.

17 Q. So you don't recall whether you took control over the other

18 prisoners?

19 A. No, I don't recall, sir.

20 Q. All right. Now, if I can refer you to page 33 in the B/C/S -- in

21 the Serbian version, and it's page 38 of Mr. Gavric's statement. And I'm

22 referring to lines 5 and 6. He seems to indicate -- he states, being

23 asked a question: "How many men and boys were in that group that you

24 captured?" Page 33. I don't know the exact line.

25 The question is: "How many men and boys were in that group that

Page 3320

1 you captured?"

2 Mr. Gavric states: "My free assessment, 35, 38." That's his

3 assessment.

4 A. Sir, I stated to you and I'm stating before this Chamber that such

5 and such a number of men surrendered and four children. And these four

6 children were handed over to Mr. Gavric.

7 Q. But I'm not discussing the children, and I totally agree with you

8 that the children were handed over to Mr. Gavric, who made it to their

9 freedom thanks to Mr. Gavric.

10 We're talking about his assessment of how many men were captured,

11 and he indicates 35, 38, versus what you testified yesterday, which was

12 approximately 200.

13 A. I said that there were about 200.

14 Q. Okay. So he's either incorrect or you're incorrect, one of the

15 two?

16 A. I cannot say. I'm just telling you what I remember.

17 Q. Okay. And you don't remember whether these men that were captured

18 were turned over to you?

19 A. No. I know that buses were requested. They boarded the buses and

20 left in the direction of Zvornik.

21 Q. Well, let's see what Mr. Gavric has to say when he was being

22 questioned by the Office of the Prosecution with the status of the

23 witness. And I'm referring to page 16 and on your version it's page 14 of

24 the Srpski version. And so for the English version, it's page 16. I'll

25 be reading from lines 11 to 18 -- actually starting with line 10. Line

Page 3321

1 14, sir. I mean page 14.

2 According to Mr. Gavric he states: "Just to make it short, that

3 group of people that surrendered, that captured, I handed over to the

4 people responsible to take them to Bijeljina. That's what I was told.

5 They told me there was a camp somewhere around and they will be exchanged.

6 I'll come to that moment. Some of them asked me, 'why are you doing it

7 that way?' I said, 'I'm a soldier, that I respect the orders,' because my

8 commander, every time he ordered me -- not me but to all was either a

9 written or an oral order, in case you capture enemy soldiers, treat them

10 according to the conventions. That was the order, and I follow that, I

11 will always follow it.

12 Now, I want to go to the next section, that's page 32 in the

13 English version. That would be on page 27 to 28 of your version, sir, in

14 Srpski. And I'll be reading from lines 3 and I'm going to be reading

15 quite a bit.

16 Okay. "And you said to me that you told them if they found

17 someone to bring them back to you."

18 "Yes, and that was done."

19 Question: "Who is the appropriate people?" Referring to what he

20 indicated two pages earlier.

21 "So they were handed over to Jevic and his men, and I don't know

22 where Jevic was stationed but they all went to Konjevic Polje."

23 We don't have to read on but here he indicates that the men who

24 were captured, prisoners, were handed over to you, sir. Now that we have

25 seen this, does that refresh your memory at all as to whether the men were

Page 3322

1 handed over to you?

2 A. Sir, I've already replied to that question. When those people

3 surrendered and those four children appeared, buses arrived and they were

4 all taken in the direction of Zvornik. I probably went to Konjevic Polje,

5 stayed there for a brief period, and then came back to Bratunac.

6 Q. But here, a Prosecution witness who was on the list right before

7 he got struck off, Mr. Gavric --

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection for about the tenth time. He keeps

9 making statements that are not part of the record, are not part of the

10 question. It's completely inappropriate and uncalled for.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I will rephrase, Your Honour.

13 Q. According to Mr. Gavric, he indicates to the Office of the

14 Prosecution that he handed these prisoners to the appropriate authorities,

15 and then he indicates that you were the appropriate authority, handed over

16 to you personally.

17 So my question is: Does this refresh your memory? Do you have a

18 memory of the men being handed over to you and you being responsible for

19 them?

20 A. Sir, I've already replied to that question. I don't know what

21 Mr. Gavric stated. I think that I am being very sincere. I have no

22 reason to lie here. Buses were summoned. They arrived. The people

23 boarded them and went in the direction of Zvornik. Four children were

24 taken over by Captain Gavric and I don't know where he went with them. I

25 don't know what happened to them afterwards. Anything else that I would

Page 3323

1 tell you would be superfluous.

2 Q. Okay. If we could turn to page 39, and it's page 34 in your -- in

3 the Serbian version. Page 39, I'm going to be reading from lines 20 to

4 22. Here Mr. Gavric again in answering a question to the Office of the

5 Prosecution states that "From there they were handed over to Jevic and the

6 rest of us just remained there waiting for the buses. They continued on

7 foot with Jevic to Konjevic Polje."

8 That's what Mr. Gavric told the OTP when he was interviewed as a

9 witness back in November 28, 2001. Now, having heard what Mr. Gavric says

10 here on page 39, lines 20 to 22, does this help your memory? Because he

11 seems to be indicating here that he hands the men over to you and then he

12 says that they continued on foot with Jevic to Konjevic Polje. So you're

13 marching them, walking with them. You're doing something with them. Does

14 this help trigger your memory?

15 A. Sir, as far as that is concerned, I've stated what I had to state

16 clearly.

17 Q. Okay. Well, let's go back -- let's go to page 40. And in your

18 page it would be page 35. Lines 19 to 21. Mr. Gavric tells the Office of

19 the Prosecution, "I told him that I returned to the field, that I brought

20 the kids, that I handed over the man that I captured to the commander of

21 the MUP unit. And he told me that I did good." This is where Mr. Gavric

22 is reporting to someone back in the brigade what he did. So he reports

23 that he handed the men over to you. Does this help your memory?

24 A. I don't understand.

25 Q. You don't understand. Okay. Let's go to page 41. It will be

Page 3324

1 page 36. Lines 24, and I'm going to go on to page 42.

2 Question: "And did he write down in the duty officer's book what

3 you told this unknown officer?"

4 Mr. Gavric: "He was pretty precise. I assume that we recorded

5 somewhere. And for the children, I know for sure that they were filmed.

6 Question: "Did you report the capture of the Muslims to anyone in

7 the Bratunac Brigade?"

8 "I had no reason to do so because I was not obliged to except for

9 the duty officer."

10 So when you come from the terrain, you're supposed to report to

11 the duty officer and that man was sitting in the duty officer's room.

12 Question: "And once you reported to the duty officer?"

13 Answer: "I finished all my duty."

14 Question: "And what would the duty officer do, report to the

15 commander?"

16 Answer: "Probably in his report."

17 Now here, Mr. Gavric seems to indicate that he makes a record of

18 the fact that he has the four children and he has turned over the men to

19 you, the commander of MUP. Does this help refresh, rejuvenate, your

20 memory somehow?

21 A. I really don't understand you. I responded already. Mr. Gavric

22 and myself were there.

23 Q. All right. But Mr. Gavric is very precise that the main --

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection at this point, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 3325

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is just going beyond -- this is about the

2 tenth time that this has been asked and answered. It's unduly

3 time-consuming and no longer very probative.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you have already answered

5 your question and the witness answered that.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: That was my last question in that area, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: We cannot get more from this witness, you have to

9 understand.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I do, Your Honour. I just want to make sure the

11 point is abundantly clear. Now that I think we are all clear, I am going

12 to move on.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.


15 Q. Mr. Jevic, your commander, Mr. Borovcanin, has been indicted, has

16 he not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, in fact, he was supposed to turn himself in, but he's on the

19 run someplace. Right? Well, he's not in The Hague?

20 A. No, he's not.

21 Q. And that's where he's supposed to be, right?

22 A. Well, he's been indicted.

23 Q. Yeah, exactly. And you were at the time, the period that is

24 covered in his indictment, you were the second in the command over the MUP

25 units there, were you not?

Page 3326

1 A. I was subordinated to him.

2 Q. You were the next in line?

3 A. I will say that I was subordinated to him because there were a lot

4 of police units there.

5 Q. Okay. And you were in Potocari on those critical days, the 12th

6 and the 13th. Right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Your company commander, the person that you supervised and you

9 ordered was also there, Mr. Djuric. Right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And under the rules of subordination and the rules of chain of

12 command, command responsibility, you would be responsible for any acts

13 that he might have committed. Right?

14 A. If I did issue such an order.

15 Q. Okay. That's your understanding. Is it fair to -- and I

16 understand it that when you were questioned by the Prosecution and as you

17 sit here today, you still remain a suspect, do you not?

18 A. Mr. Karnavas, I have been called here to testify. I stated when I

19 was providing my first statement and when I talked with the Prosecutor

20 here on Sunday, and I'm repeating it again here. My conscience as a human

21 being and as an officer is clear. I have nothing to hide. Had I felt

22 responsible in any sense, then of course I would -- I believe that I would

23 need to be made accountable for that. This is what I stated in Banja Luka

24 and this is what I am stating here now. Perhaps you view me as some kind

25 of beast. You might feel that I committed some things, but --

Page 3327

1 Q. Mr. Jevic.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As you sit here today, you remain a suspect by the Prosecution,

4 not by the Defence. Isn't that a fact?

5 A. I cannot interpret the actions of the Prosecution.

6 Q. Well, perhaps that's why on the day of -- on the 12th of July, on

7 the 13th of July, 1995, you saw no evil, you heard no evil, and now you're

8 here to speak no evil. Is that correct?

9 A. Sir, I stated what I had heard. I cannot say anything about what

10 was presented in the media or what was seen. I was never a supporter of

11 that, but I cannot say that I saw what I did not see.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination, Mr. Stojanovic?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of today's

16 and yesterday's testimony by Mr. Jevic and according to instructions from

17 my client, I don't have any significant questions. I just wanted to put

18 three or four relevant questions referring to the status of my client, but

19 we can probably finish that before the break. May I be allowed to

20 proceed?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may move on. We still have three minutes to

22 go.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Jevic?

25 A. Good day.

Page 3328

1 Q. I just wanted to put a few questions to you. Do you personally

2 know Dragan Jokic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you personally hear about all the events that you participated

5 in in Srebrenica, Bratunac, did you ever hear the name of Dragan Jokic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you an athlete?

8 A. Yes, for a long time.

9 Q. What is your field?

10 A. Judo. I was in competitions for a long time, and at the moment

11 I'm a judo trainer.

12 Q. Did you ever play on the national team?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you ever come to Zvornik because of that?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. In all of your sports activities did you ever hear of a

17 Lieutenant Dragan Jokic and any of the events in Srebrenica?

18 A. I never heard of his name in connection with any events in

19 Srebrenica. Had I heard that, I would have said so.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You are very efficient. You have finished

23 your cross-examination in two minutes.

24 Well, it is time for a break. We resume at 12.30.

25 --- Break taken at 11.59 a.m.

Page 3329

1 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any re-direct examination, Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just a few minutes, Mr. President.

4 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

5 Q. Mr. Jevic, regarding discipline, did you discipline any of your

6 troops for abusing Muslims in any way, for their conduct from 11 July

7 through the point where you went back to Jahorina?

8 A. Well, I had no reason to any disciplinary measures. As for my

9 unit, the unit of which I was in command, according to the information I

10 had, they did not abuse anyone or do any harm to anyone.

11 Q. Was there any investigation that you're aware of that your units

12 were involved in any abuse of Muslim prisoners during that time?

13 A. Not that I was aware of.

14 Q. Were you aware of any investigation by any government body of

15 Ministry of the Interior troops in the Bratunac, Srebrenica,

16 Konjevic Polje area during that time period?

17 A. None that I was aware of. Recently, the government carried out

18 certain obligations pursuant to the human rights centre, and there was

19 indeed an investigation into those things that you refer to.

20 Q. And is that ongoing today as we speak?

21 A. I think the government completed and submitted one of the reports

22 now. Whether this is still ongoing, believe me, I have no idea.

23 Q. Okay. When you received your orders on the 17th at the Bratunac

24 Brigade command, did you receive those orders from MUP or army?

25 A. We received orders from the army. I was ordered by my superior,

Page 3330

1 Borovcanin, to go to the meeting for an agreement concerning the

2 assignment and the search of the terrain.

3 Q. So you say you received orders at that meeting on the 17th from

4 the army. Can you tell us who in the army you received the orders from?

5 A. As I said, I don't remember who was at the meeting. Activities

6 were agreed at the meeting as to how the forces should be deployed during

7 the search. My order to go to the meeting came from my superior,

8 Borovcanin.

9 Q. Do you know the rank of the army individuals that gave you the

10 orders at the meeting?

11 A. I don't, believe me.

12 Q. Do you know whether -- if it was main staff, corps, or brigade

13 level army officers that gave you your orders.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I object, Your Honour. Excuse me, sir.

17 Now it's multiple choice time. The Prosecutor got his answer, he

18 got it repeatedly. Now he's giving him a multiple choice.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, I believe the witness has answered

20 the question. You cannot get more from this witness.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, he has not been asked what division

22 of the army he may have heard that from, be it the main staff, the corps

23 or the brigade level. Those are the only thee choices. I can ask him if

24 he knows what level. He might. The way things are going, I agree with

25 you, he probably doesn't. It has not been asked and I thought it should

Page 3331

1 be

2 clarified.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may do that.


5 Q. Do you know what level of army provided you those orders?

6 A. I can only assume the chain of command says that the main staff

7 sends the order to the corps, the corps to the brigade, and the brigade to

8 its units.

9 Q. So you don't know which of the three actually gave you the order?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did the MUP have anything to do with the buses that the 200

12 prisoners were transported on on the 17th of July?

13 A. Not as far as I know.

14 Q. Do you know who was controlling the buses?

15 A. Well, the MUP was in no position to control those buses. It could

16 either have been the army or the civilian authority.

17 Q. Were you working with any civilian authority in this terrain

18 operation, of sweeping the terrain?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you aware of any civilian authority that was involved in the

21 transportation of the Muslim prisoners that day?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What do you think happened to those 200 Muslim prisoners??

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Calls for speculation. He can ask him

25 if he knows, and if so get the answer.

Page 3332

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could rephrase your question,

2 Mr. McCloskey.


4 Q. Do you know what happened to the prisoners?

5 A. I know that they were taken in the direction of Zvornik. Now, as

6 for what happened later on, many things were being said in the media, but

7 whether that was precisely what happened to that specific group of

8 prisoners, I really don't know.

9 Q. Did you receive any information about what the children were

10 reporting to the army and the MUP after they were captured?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It's beyond the scope of

12 cross-examination at this point.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, the children you mentioned, is

14 that four children, I suppose?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so. I don't think this question is

17 beyond the scope of cross-examination.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Just for the record, Your Honour, he's asking what

19 the children said with respect to what they saw, as opposed to what they

20 saw prior to them being captured. In my opinion, and I don't want to

21 disagree with the Trial Chamber, in my opinion it is beyond the scope.

22 I'm not afraid of the answer, but --

23 JUDGE LIU: But this question is somewhat relevant to the issue.

24 It's related to this issue and of course hearsay evidence, there's no

25 problem for us to hear it.

Page 3333

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't have a problem with that.

2 JUDGE LIU: But Mr. Karnavas, and if you believe this is beyond

3 the scope, you still have the right to pursue on this subject later on.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: That's precisely why I registered my concern, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.


8 Q. Mr. Jevic, did you -- I'll try to ask the question again. Did you

9 receive any information about what the children that were captured were

10 reporting after their capture?

11 A. No.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I want to just briefly go back to this exhibit,

13 Your Honour, I think you mentioned, P159, this report that has

14 Mr. Borovcanin's name on the back of it. If I could show that to the

15 witness one more time and try to clarify some things.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Jevic, this document begins by saying: "By order number

17 64/95 issued by the deputy minister of the interior on 10 July, 1995."

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, Your Honour, the 10 July

19 order, which was Exhibit P157A does, in fact, say that it's order 64/95.

20 Q. Have you ever seen a report like this that's drafted in this

21 particular style of numbered paragraphs?

22 A. Can you please clarify the question.

23 Q. You have seen Mr. Borovcanin; he's written several reports on the

24 various combat activities that he was involved in. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3334

1 Q. And has he showed you many of the reports of combat activities

2 that he's written to the minister involving these sorts of things?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You haven't seen his reports? I'm not talking about this

5 incident. I'm talking about just regular combat reports that he sends to

6 Mr. Kovac. Have you seen any of his normal reports that he would write

7 like from Trnovo or Sarajevo?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In any report that Mr. Borovcanin would make, is it -- should

10 there be something on the front page of it or was it normal to start out

11 like this with no heading or no date?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: There's a lack of foundation here and, you know, I

14 think he needs to ask a few questions before he can get to that. And also

15 might I remind everyone that this is the Prosecution's exhibit. So now it

16 appears that he's impeaching his own witness with this exhibit. So I

17 just -- I don't understand the line of questioning that he's getting into.

18 Does he want the witness to acknowledge that this is an official document

19 or that it was fabricated? Because, after all, this was brought here by

20 the Prosecution.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the Prosecutor asked a

22 proper question, because this is a question we want to ask at a later

23 stage. I look forward to your cooperation and let us move on.


25 Q. I'll try again. Is it normal for this to start out like this

Page 3335

1 without some sort of a cover page?

2 A. The established procedure for drafting the rules would be to have

3 the header in the upper left corner, stating the name of the institution,

4 of the republic and of the state; the institution, the seat of the

5 institution, then perhaps additional signs, symbols, the document number,

6 and then the date. Below that, there would be a description of the

7 procedure, or rather the document being submitted, whether it was notes,

8 minutes, or whatever.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, and how about the -- could you put the front

10 page of your B/C/S version on the ELMO. Just the front page, just so we

11 can take a -- so people can see what that looks like.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, we have some problems with the

13 LiveNote. So would you please pause for a while, we could have some

14 technicians to look into it.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Well, Mr. McCloskey, would you please try again. It seems to me

18 that the LiveNote is okay.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Okay. We have this document on the ELMO so we can see the front

21 of it. Would this be a normal beginning of an official document?

22 A. Generally speaking, it's possible.

23 Q. Well, you've just told us that normally there would be a heading

24 and a date on it. There's not a heading and a date on this anywhere, is

25 there?

Page 3336

1 A. Yes. I was speaking about the text itself. As for the heading

2 and date, that would be in the upper left corner, typed in the upper left

3 corner. The name of the state, country, the name of the institution, the

4 place where the institution is located, then you would have the date and

5 then the type of the document specified, a report or something like that.

6 At first I didn't understand your question, but now I do.

7 Q. So this particular page in and of itself, you don't see anything

8 wrong with it. Is that what you're saying?

9 A. Well, there's no heading. There's no document number. There's no

10 date and so on.

11 Q. There may be another page that's supposed to go with this?

12 A. There should be another page, yes.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go to the last page. Could you turn to the last page

14 of this document. And maybe the usher will help you get it just so we can

15 see.

16 First of all, before we get to that, can you tell us what is

17 normally on the last page of any official document such as a report like

18 this?

19 A. The established procedure would be to have the person submitting

20 the report there and to have the recording clerk there as well as the

21 stamp of the institution.

22 Q. Okay. So this is the last page we have. Now, I'm not asking

23 about the content of what's there, but should there be something else? If

24 this was truly the last page, should those other things you mentioned be

25 on there?

Page 3337

1 A. Well, in the bottom right corner, a bit under the text there

2 should be the name of the person who submits the report typed up and

3 signed and a stamp, a stamp endorsing the document, the stamp of the

4 institution submitting the report.

5 Q. Is there a difference between the original report that is written,

6 signed, and stamped, and the same report that is received at the other end

7 of a Teletype machine? Do they look differently?

8 A. You mean do they look different? Well, this report which arrived

9 by fax or by telex, how should I explain this? I can't quite find the

10 words.

11 Q. I can ask you something in particular. When a military document

12 is encoded and teletyped over the airwaves, does the actual handwritten

13 signature of the person that signed it go through the Teletype machine?

14 A. No. No. It works differently.

15 Q. Okay. Can you -- so you do have some knowledge about what

16 documents look like that go through the Teletype versus the ones that are

17 originally signed?

18 A. A little, yes.

19 Q. From that little knowledge, can you take a look at this document

20 in front of you and tell us whether you can tell if this was teletyped or

21 might be not something that was sent over Teletype?

22 A. I think this document may have gone through a fax and was copied.

23 Q. Was it possible to encrypt faxes at the time in July 1995?

24 A. I really don't know.

25 Q. Okay. Just a couple of last questions about -- this name down at

Page 3338

1 the bottom, I'm just not -- can you clarify for us. You have seen

2 Mr. Borovcanin's signature many times, as you've testified before. Is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, having seen that signature before, what can you tell us about

6 the way this name is written? And you can take another look at it. It's

7 right there.

8 A. Well, as far as I understand, this does not entirely resemble his

9 signature. His signature is, in fact, quite different. I did say this

10 morning in relation to that, that wasn't it.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.

12 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges?

13 Judge Vassylenko, please.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Jevic, can you tell us what was your

16 position and rank in special police brigade in July 1995?

17 A. I was the assistant commander for operations and training with the

18 special brigade of the police. And my rank was lieutenant colonel.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: During the proofing at the ICTY premises on

20 19th October this year, you stated that Borovcanin was a colonel and held

21 the equivalent position in the MUP as Krstic held in the army, and that's

22 why Krstic, not Blagojevic would communicate orders to Borovcanin. To

23 what army rank, your rank, in the police force was equivalent in July

24 1995?

25 A. Well, there are different interpretations that are possible in

Page 3339

1 this case. Borovcanin was not Mr. Krstic's equal in terms of rank. But

2 establishment-wise and because of the units that he had command over at

3 that time, he did have the level required to talk directly to

4 General Krstic. The equivalent to my rank, well at the time it might have

5 been the equivalent on my rank, rather, that I could command a detachment

6 or something like that. That would have been my level roughly speaking.

7 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Who would communicate orders to you? Who would

8 give orders to you?

9 A. Mr. Borovcanin.

10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: [Previous translation continues]...

11 Borovcanin.

12 A. My commander was Mr. Saric.

13 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: General Krstic could give orders to you?

14 A. You mean me personally?


16 A. I was not able to communicate directly with General Krstic.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: During the proofings, you stated that on 10th

18 July, 1995, you received a written order signed by Tomislav Kovac to

19 report to the Bratunac Brigade. Then you reported to the Bratunac

20 headquarters on 11th July, 1995, at 1500 hours. Whom did you report to?

21 A. I did not report to the command of the Bratunac Brigade, but I

22 reported to Mr. Borovcanin in Bratunac. On the 11th at 1500 hours when I

23 arrived at Bratunac, I reported to Mr. Borovcanin, my superior.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: As far as I understand, because Mr. Borovcanin

25 didn't belong to Bratunac Brigade, you were ordered to report to the

Page 3340

1 Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

2 A. I apologise. If you are talking about the 17th -- are you talking

3 about the 17th or the 11th. I'm sorry. Which date are you talking about?

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: 11th, July 11th.

5 A. I was ordered to go to Bratunac and to wait there, that I would

6 get an order from Mr. Borovcanin there.

7 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Have you ever received orders from

8 Captain Nikolic or Colonel Blagojevic?

9 A. I already stated, Your Honour, that I do not remember.

10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: You stated that on the 16th of July, 1995, you

11 have met with Momir Nikolic at Bratunac Brigade to discuss the search

12 operation. Can you tell us the details of your discussion.

13 A. I was conveyed an order to report to the Bratunac Brigade to

14 Mr. Nikolic and that I would be told when there would be a meeting which

15 would deal with the next day's activities. I reported at 2300 hours and I

16 was told that the meeting would be between 7.00 and 8.00 a.m. in the

17 morning at the command of the Bratunac Brigade. I don't remember exactly

18 the time.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: What issues did you discuss at this meeting

20 with Momir Nikolic?

21 A. It wasn't a meeting. I just reported to him so that I would get

22 the time for the meeting and to see what it was all about.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I have no more questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Any questions out of Judge's questions?

Page 3341

1 Yes, Mr. Karnavas?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: It seems to me that there's no questions.

4 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I might be able to clarify one point for His

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

8 Further examination by Mr. McCloskey:

9 Q. In paragraph 5, it says on the arrival - of this 10 July

10 order - on arrival at the destination, the unit commander shall contact

11 General Krstic. Who do you believe that unit commander to have been,

12 according to this order?

13 A. All items of that order need to be looked at in order to

14 understand who was to contact General Krstic. One of the items allocates

15 Mr. Borovcanin as the superior of all the police forces and as the only

16 person to be able to contact General Krstic.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. At this stage are there any documents to

19 tender? Mr. McCloskey?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. P157, the 10 July order under

21 the name of Mr. Kovac I would tender. And as regarding P159, the report

22 with Mr. Borovcanin's name on it, if I could have a short discussion

23 outside the presence of this witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We -- there's a possibility that we could

25 revisit this issue at a later stage.

Page 3342

1 Any objections as for the document P157?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: No. We were going to be asking that -- urging the

3 Prosecution to admit it. So we're glad to see that they're doing so.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Mr. Stojanovic?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections to admitting these

7 two documents, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The document P157 is admitted into the

9 evidence. And later on we will discuss about that document P159.

10 Are there any documents that Defence team would like to tender at

11 this stage?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. D60/1, the Official Gazette of

13 the Serbian people of -- in Bosnia-Herzegovina, defence act, that's the

14 law on defence; D61/1, the law on the implementation of the law on

15 internal affairs during an imminent threat of war or a state of war;

16 D62/1, which is the Republika Srpska President of the Republika Srpska

17 order. And we would encourage the Prosecution to think about admitting

18 their P109 which was the CJB document that we made reference to, and that

19 is dated July 13th, 1995, where it shows that Mr. Vasic clearly indicates

20 that based on the meeting from General Mladic that the MUP have been

21 yielded to do certain tasks, and we think that's a vital piece of

22 evidence. It now carries for identification purposes P109. So we would

23 ask that that be admitted as well, but at this point in time it is a

24 Prosecution evidence, but we are willing to adopt it and put our own

25 number on it. We hesitate because we don't want to cloud up or confuse

Page 3343

1 the system. But we welcome every opportunity to use the Prosecution

2 evidence whenever we can, and introduce them as Defence evidence.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 Any objections.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, no to the first group. As for

6 P109, this is an issue we've crossed before. This is an important

7 document. It comes within a series of documents on similar dates and

8 should best be seen in context with all those documents -- and we don't

9 have a foundation for it yet. So I would prefer that we wait until we

10 have a foundation for it. But if the Court wants it in evidence now, I

11 can certainly tell you we will provide an authentic and accurate

12 foundation as much as possible for this document, as it was obtained in a

13 search warrant.

14 JUDGE LIU: So you have no objections to other documents?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. The others, those are all part of

16 Mr. Butler's report, and were all, most of them anyway, and we agree that

17 those -- and those are more along the lines of rules and regulations, more

18 in line of public-oriented type documents, so I have no problem with that.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So the document tendered by

20 Defence team, D60, D61, and D62 are admitted into evidence. As for the

21 document P109, I believe that the Defence team would like to tender it

22 into the evidence as his evidence. Since this document is provided by the

23 OTP and we would make a tentative decision that to admit this document

24 into the evidence at this stage, and since it's tendered by Defence, maybe

25 we could have a Defence number on it. Of course, there's still room for

Page 3344

1 further informations and further cooperations on this piece of document at

2 a later stage.

3 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, thank you, Your Honour. Secondly, we

5 don't want to take ownership, we just want to make sure it gets into the

6 evidence, whether it's P109 or D64, it's fine with us. If we are to give

7 it a number, then I believe the next number would be D64/1. And I'm

8 perfectly willing to allow the Prosecution the time that is necessary to

9 introduce it when they believe it's -- so I'm not -- as long as I have a

10 good faith representation that they're going to be introducing it, I have

11 no problem in waiting. We did use the document. So, again, I don't want

12 confuse the numbering system, but I leave it up to the Court's discretion.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think that is a tentative

14 ruling on this piece of document. And I think it is tendered by Defence,

15 at this moment we will have a Defence number on it. To me, there's no

16 difference whether the ownership is yours or the Prosecution's.

17 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

18 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We wish you have

19 a pleasant journey back home.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, how about that document P159.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. That document was provided to

24 us by Mr. Vasic, and it was in the format that you have seen it,

25 apparently missing a top page and a bottom page. I don't find that to be

Page 3345

1 a very reliable source of information, though it's an interesting

2 document. And I'm reluctant at this time to offer a document like this

3 that could be fabricated into evidence, though I say it's an interesting

4 document to compare and I know Your Honours will give it the weight that

5 you feel it's appropriate based on that.

6 We would like to do a little more work to see if there's any way

7 we can try to authenticate it any further and hopefully I can provide the

8 Court with some more information on that. But, again, I have no objection

9 if the Court feels it's something they want to consider. But I would like

10 to be able, before offering it into evidence, provide you with a little

11 more substance on whether it's authentic or not.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

13 Mr. Karnavas, what's your view on this document?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, to be quite honest, I'm somewhat lost for

15 words. A rare occasion, but nonetheless we have it. Why if they have a

16 problem with the authenticity of the document would they even bring it in?

17 I don't know. I concur with the Prosecutor that it lacks the necessary

18 foundation, but why even bother to bring it in only to then suggest that

19 it shouldn't be brought in. That's why I was a little confused because it

20 seemed like yesterday they wanted it in and today they want to impeach it.

21 So, I don't know what to think of that.

22 JUDGE LIU: That's something out of scope of the discussion.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm confused.

24 JUDGE LIU: I know. I understand that. What I want to know is

25 your view with this document, whether it should be admitted into the

Page 3346

1 evidence or not.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: I at this --

3 JUDGE LIU: You know, Mr. Stojanovic, your colleague, has agreed

4 that this document could be admitted into the evidence.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no objection, Your Honour, to it being

6 admitted into evidence. I would agree with the Prosecutor that there may

7 be some problems, however I have no objections. I do think it's something

8 that the Court should consider. And in fact, I would welcome the

9 opportunity. I sincerely say this, for the Prosecution to bring Mr. Vasic

10 here, subpoena him, bring him here, so we can question him, because it's

11 Mr. Vasic who provided them with the letter with respect to what

12 Mr. Kovac saw when Mladic ordered on the 13th, made the famous "kill them

13 all," statement and as a result the events were put into motion, which is

14 what we believe happened.

15 I don't have any objections and I would urge the Prosecutor on the

16 record, since they do have some concerns about the foundation to bring

17 Mr. Vasic, and maybe Mr. Vasic could assist us all in laying a better

18 foundation. I have no objections to it and I think the Court can consider

19 it.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

21 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could I respond to Mr. Karnavas. He's insinuated

23 that there's something improper about my bringing this document in and I

24 would like to just be able to respond.

25 JUDGE LIU: We have a witness waiting from 9.00 this morning and

Page 3347

1 it's quite a long time, at least we have to hear parts of his testimony

2 this morning. Let us not debate that. I think I'm in a position to make

3 ruling concerning the document. Since the Defence team do not object to

4 the admission of this document, we would like to make a ruling that this

5 document P159 is admitted into the evidence. But however, unless the

6 Prosecution will provide us with more information concerning of the

7 authenticity of this document, we'll attach very little weight on this

8 document. It is so decided.

9 Well, I think we should hear the next witness.

10 Good morning, Ms. Davis.

11 MS. DAVIS: Good morning, Mr. President. I wanted to inform the

12 Court this witness has decided to testify in open session. I believe you

13 all have been informed of that already, but I wanted to say on the record.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

15 [The witness entered court].

16 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness -- or good afternoon.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

19 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

25 And before you start, I think I have to warn you that you may

Page 3348

1 object to making any statement which might intend to incriminate yourself.

2 But however, the Chamber may compel you to answer the question.

3 Testimonies compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a

4 subsequent prosecution against you for any offense, other than the false

5 testimony.

6 Do you understand that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Ms. Davis, the witness is yours.

10 Examined by Ms. Davis:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gajic.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. Do you remember meeting with me and an investigator and also an

14 interpreter was present in our offices on Monday?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Were you told at that time that you had a right to have an

17 attorney present with you and that you had a right to remain silent?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you waived those rights at that time and you agreed to talk

20 with us. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you also agreed to testify in court here today without the

23 assistance of counsel. Is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Would you please state for the record your name and spell your

Page 3349

1 first and last name.

2 A. N-i-k-o-l-a G-a-j-i-c.

3 Q. And what is your birth date, Mr. Gajic?

4 A. January 1st, 1966.

5 Q. Where were you born?

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.


8 Q. Could you repeat that for the interpreter, please?

9 A. Opravdici--

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like to make a correction

11 to the birth date. It was January 5th, 1966.


13 Q. Mr. Gajic, during the war, did you serve in the VRS during the

14 Bosnian Serb army?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when did you begin your service in the VRS?

17 A. 1992, in April.

18 Q. And which unit were you assigned to?

19 A. The Kravica Battalion.

20 Q. What brigade was the Kravica Battalion a part of?

21 A. The Bratunac Brigade.

22 Q. Can you tell us who the battalion -- the Kravica Battalion

23 commander was in July 1995.

24 A. Lazar Ostojic.

25 Q. And where was the battalion based?

Page 3350

1 A. In the area of the Magasici village.

2 Q. Were you also a member of a platoon or a company within the

3 battalion?

4 A. Yes. The intervention platoon.

5 Q. And what was your rank when you began service in the VRS in 1992?

6 A. I was lance corporal. I had that rank already from the army.

7 Q. And in 1995 what was your rank?

8 A. Nothing. It was the same.

9 Q. And you were also in the intervention platoon of the

10 Kravica Battalion in 1995. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. That's correct.

12 Q. I would like to turn your attention to July 11th, 1995, the day

13 that Srebrenica fell, and ask you where you and your platoon were

14 positioned on that day.

15 A. In the area of the Magasici village, that's where our line was.

16 Q. When you say "that's where our line was," can you describe to me

17 what you mean by that.

18 A. Our line of defence was facing the Muslim forces in the village of

19 Cizmici. That's where we were, between the village of Cizmici and the

20 village of Magasici.

21 Q. And what were your orders and responsibilities with respect to the

22 line?

23 A. We were there reinforcing the line for the eventuality of an

24 attack.

25 Q. What could you see from your position in terms of combat activity

Page 3351

1 or -- from your vantage point on the defence line?

2 A. There were no combat operations. You could see the UN checkpoint,

3 the UNPROFOR checkpoint, and the Muslim villages that lay ahead of us.

4 Q. Can you tell us -- I understand you were there with your platoon

5 members on the defence line, were there other units there as well?

6 A. Well, nothing, the army that was always there, our army from the

7 battalion. We were merely reinforcing them. We were reinforcing some of

8 the trenches there.

9 Q. You were reinforcing other units from your battalion?

10 A. Nothing special. The company that was already there in the area,

11 we reinforced them.

12 Q. So was this area in Magasici and Cizmici, the area that you

13 described, that was the area that was normally patrolled by your unit. Is

14 that correct?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I hate to object. Now she's indicating he was

18 patrolling. It seems a fact not in evidence. He indicated that he was

19 there. The lines were there. There was no such thing about patrolling.

20 I would ask that the Prosecutor be careful.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Davis, be careful with the terminology.

22 MS. DAVIS: I agree, Your Honour. Mr. Karnavas is correct.

23 Q. Was this an area to which your unit was ordinarily assigned?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to direct your attention to a map that I'm going to

Page 3352

1 place on the ELMO. This is marked for identification as exhibit P162. I

2 would ask the usher to place it on the ELMO. We discussed earlier,

3 Mr. Gajic, that we met briefly in our offices on Monday. And you might

4 remember that I asked you to mark several locations on this map. Do you

5 remember that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. One of the things that I asked you to mark was the approximate

8 location of the defence line that you've described. And if you could,

9 using one of the pens on your desk there, point to the line that you

10 marked on the map.

11 A. It was something like this.

12 Q. And what were the end points approximately of the line that you

13 marked on the map, in other words, the end points of the defence line that

14 your unit was responsible for reinforcing?

15 A. I apologise. Do you mean the intervention platoon only or the

16 whole battalion?

17 Q. If you can explain to us the end points of the defence line that

18 your battalion was responsible for reinforcing.

19 A. Just a moment, please. From about here from the village of Hranca

20 towards Mount Ravni Buljin in the area of the village of Slikovici

21 [phoen].

22 Q. I apologise. With respect to the markings that you made on the

23 map. I see on the map a letter A that is next to the defence line. Did

24 you make that marking?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the answer. May the

Page 3353

1 witness please be asked to speak into the microphone.


3 Q. The interpreter is having some difficulty hear you, perhaps you

4 could speak into the microphone?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And that marks the eastern end of the line that you marked on the

7 map. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Directing your attention to the specific date of July 11th, the

10 date that Srebrenica fell, what was occurring in the area where you were

11 stationed along the defence line?

12 A. Nothing special, meaning we were just reinforcing the line and we

13 were on duty there.

14 Q. Did you see any combat activity?

15 A. Not where we were.

16 Q. Did you hear anything?

17 A. Nothing special.

18 Q. Did you -- could you, from your vantage point along the line, see

19 anything in areas that you weren't reinforcing along the line?

20 A. From where I was, the only thing I could see was the UN checkpoint

21 and the village of Cizmici.

22 Q. So on the 11th of July, you were stationed along the defensive

23 line and there was nothing that your unit was doing?

24 A. Precisely.

25 Q. Were you aware at that time of whether there was any activity

Page 3354

1 elsewhere along the defence line?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if we could have a clarification,

3 what's defence line? Because the testimony will bear out throughout the

4 trial that the Bratunac Brigade had a defence line throughout the period

5 of way -- the time it was established all the way past the events of

6 Srebrenica, and that was considered the defence line. So if we could have

7 some clarification. His defence line, where he was situated? Somewhere

8 further down the road, some foundation may need to be laid, if he's going

9 to be asked to comment about other areas which he was not in sight of at

10 the time.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we might spend some time on that issue.

12 Ms. Davis, you may ask some questions in this respect.


14 Q. Mr. Gajic, from where you were positioned on the defence line, how

15 far -- and you may indicate on the map, how far to the west could you see?

16 A. Well, roughly speaking as far as Ravne Buljin mount.

17 Q. And how far to the east could you see from where you were on the

18 defence line?

19 A. Well, not very far, due to the lie of the land, maybe as far as

20 the next village in those hills.

21 Q. Can you indicate using the pointer, the pen that you have in your

22 hand, where the area of Ravni Buljin is.

23 A. Just a moment, please.

24 Ravni Buljin, this area here, this smaller mountain, Rogac, it was

25 near the mountain of Rogac, the village of Lipenovici. It was in that

Page 3355

1 area. It was not a mountain. A hill perhaps would be a more fitting

2 description.

3 Q. From where you were located on the defence line, being able to see

4 over to Ravni Buljin, what if anything did you see on the 11th of July?

5 A. I can't remember if it was the 11th of July, but one could see

6 columns of people moving, the Muslims were coming out in that area.

7 Q. You said "the Muslims were coming out." From what direction were

8 the Muslims coming out?

9 A. From the Srebrenica area on to Zvornik and Tuzla, in that general

10 direction.

11 Q. I take it from your previous answers that there were no Muslims

12 coming out of Srebrenica in the direction of your position on the defence

13 line. Is that right?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Did you or did your platoon have any orders with respect to what

16 you should do if any Muslims did attempt to come out of Srebrenica in your

17 area of the defence line?

18 A. Well, those who were not putting up resistance should be taken to

19 the command posts, should any happen to be in the area, of course.

20 Q. When you say "should any happen to be in the area," do you mean

21 any Muslims happen to be in the area or any command posts. I didn't

22 understand your answer.

23 A. Yes, that's what I mean, the Muslims.

24 Q. And when you say that they should be taken to the command post,

25 what do you mean by the command post?

Page 3356

1 A. Well, I mean the command of our battalion. What they would then

2 do, I really don't know. Whether they would then send them on somewhere

3 else.

4 Q. Do you believe that they had orders to send them on somewhere

5 else.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection.


8 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Davis, it is speculation. You may rephrase

10 your question.


12 Q. Do you know whether they have orders to send them on anywhere

13 else?

14 A. I was not aware of any such order.

15 Q. The night of -- the night that Srebrenica fell, the 11th of July,

16 overnight until the 12th, can you tell me where you spent that night.

17 A. Well, the same as before, our line of defence.

18 Q. And what happened on the 12th of July, the day after Srebrenica

19 fell?

20 A. I repeat, I'm not sure about the dates, but I know that the next

21 time we moved it was as far as the UN checkpoint.

22 Q. And where was the UN checkpoint?

23 A. It was past the village of Cizmici.

24 Q. Looking again at exhibit P162 on the map that's on the ELMO there,

25 do you remember marking on the map yesterday -- excuse me, on Monday, the

Page 3357

1 location of Cizmici?

2 A. I remember that.

3 Q. Can you point using the pen in your hand to the location on the

4 map and indicate which letter is written by the village of Cizmici.

5 A. The letter C.

6 Q. You indicated that you moved as far as the UN checkpoint at

7 Cizmici. When you say you moved, who moved?

8 A. Yes. Well, the military who were there in the area, the

9 intervention platoon, and the remaining soldiers.

10 Q. So the members of your platoon moved?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did the whole defence line move?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Defence line covers the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd and

16 the 4th battalions. There's no foundation laid that this gentleman would

17 know that information. If the foundation can be laid, that's fine. But

18 when he's talking about the defence line, we have to remember, it's a long

19 line.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a reasonable objection.

21 MS. DAVIS: I agree.

22 Q. The defence line in your area where your platoon was stationed,

23 did that portion of the defence line move south towards the village of

24 Cizmici?

25 A. One section, the intervention platoon and a small number of other

Page 3358

1 soldiers moved along with us.

2 Q. And what did you find when you arrived in the village of Cizmici?

3 A. Nothing. When we arrived, the village was empty.

4 Q. Were there any people there in the village at all when you

5 arrived?

6 A. When we arrived, there was no one there.

7 Q. Do you remember giving a statement in June of 2002 to the Office

8 of the Prosecutor?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do you recall telling the investigator with whom you were speaking

11 that you encountered UN soldiers when you arrived in the village of

12 Cizmici?

13 A. Yes, I do, yes. But as I said a minute ago, the checkpoint was

14 just outside the village.

15 Q. I apologise. Was the checkpoint -- did you arrive at the

16 checkpoint before you arrived at the village or after?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. I'm sorry. Did you -- was the checkpoint first or the village

19 first from the direction you were coming?

20 A. First the checkpoint.

21 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the checkpoint?

22 A. We met UN soldiers there. We spent some time there. We exchanged

23 uniforms, things like that. Nothing special, really.

24 Q. When you said that you exchanged uniforms, do you mean that you

25 gave them some uniforms and they gave you some uniforms?

Page 3359

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did they give you?

3 A. Nothing special. We traded boots, jackets, shirts, that kind of

4 thing.

5 Q. And so I take it they also -- you also gave them something?

6 A. Depends on who you're talking about. I, for one, gave them my

7 boots.

8 Q. So was this a friendly exchange?

9 A. Friendly, what else? No debate going on, if that's what you mean.

10 Q. Well, did they give you equipment voluntarily?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what did the UN soldiers do after this exchange of equipment?

13 A. Well, I'm not sure how long they stayed, but later they returned

14 to their base in Potocari. That's to the best of my knowledge.

15 Q. Well, you say you're not sure how long they stayed. Can you

16 estimate how long they stayed after you arrived in the UN checkpoint?

17 A. It may have been between one and three hours, one, two, three

18 hours.

19 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, I don't know if you want to break here.

20 It might be a good spot.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, let's stop at that Cizmici village today.

22 Well, witness, I'm afraid that you have to spend another day in

23 The Hague. And I have to remind you that while you're in The Hague,

24 you're still under the oath, so do not let anybody talk to you and do not

25 talk to anybody about your testimony. Do you understand that?

Page 3360

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And we'll resume at 9.00

3 tomorrow morning in this courtroom.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

5 at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

6 the 23rd day of October, 2003,

7 at 9.00 a.m.