Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4545

1 Friday, 14 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

10 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. If there is nothing else that

11 the parties would like to bring to the attention of this Bench, we will

12 continue with the direct examination by the Prosecution.

13 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning,

15 everyone.


17 Examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

18 Q. Mr. Butler, we will now begin to discuss some of the issues in

19 your narrative as they relate to the Zvornik Brigade area. I believe we

20 are in the chronology of about 13 July, and what is the first exhibit that

21 brings us to this area?

22 A. If I can refer back to Prosecution Exhibit 208, which we saw

23 yesterday. Just a refresher on the quick discussion between

24 Colonel Milanovic, a Drina Corps officer and the Palma duty officer with

25 respect to inquiring as to the availability of a bulldozer with a scoop, a

Page 4546

1 bucket loader, in fact, and being told that there are not any available at

2 this time. This is the first instance that I see where in a document or

3 in an intercept we can start to see the shifting of criminal activity or

4 the involvement of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade in the actual

5 manifestations of potential criminal activity.

6 The next document is Prosecution Exhibit P510. This is a vehicle

7 work log for one particular vehicle in the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. In

8 this case an Opel Rekord registration number P-4528. By way of some

9 background, each vehicle in the Zvornik Infantry Brigade and, in fact,

10 each vehicle in all of the units of the VRS was required under regulations

11 to maintain a log which was updated on a daily basis which contained

12 elements of information concerning the mileage driven, the fuel used, and

13 other routine maintenance or other issues that were necessary to record

14 pursuant to the daily functioning of the vehicle.

15 This particular vehicle registration number P-4528, operated under

16 the control during July 1995 of the assistant commander for security of

17 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. And the three individuals listed here

18 Milorad Bircakovic, Mirko Ristic, and Misko Arapovic are members of the

19 Zvornik Infantry Brigade military police company.

20 Q. How do you know that?

21 A. As part of the documents that we have seized from the Zvornik

22 Infantry Brigade, we have seized unit rosters for the July 1995 time

23 frame, and the names of these individuals are members of the military

24 police on that log.

25 If I can turn to the second page in the English language

Page 4547

1 translation, and perhaps before I do, it may be instructive. This is what

2 the actual logbook looks like in B/C/S. And if you will go to -- one of

3 the pages is missing. I just want to note out that it does, in fact, have

4 the names of Mirko Ristic and Misko Arapovic.

5 Going to the second page of this document, I would highlight for

6 the attention of the Court the notations with respect to 13 July 1995,

7 noting the trips that the vehicle made during the course of that day.

8 Standard is what is normally put in there to refer to the garrison of the

9 Zvornik Brigade, which was the former Standard shoe factory. IKM, of

10 course, is the forward command post, Zvornik local. Then you will see

11 trips listed to Orahovac, Zvornik, Orahovac, back to Standard, down to

12 Bratunac, and then a return to Zvornik.

13 Q. Mr. Butler, I notice there's no times listed. So from this log,

14 is there any way to determine at what time of day these trips were made?

15 A. No, sir, there is not. I would, however, note that what we are

16 able to determine is the number of people in the vehicle generally, which

17 is listed as 3 and total number of kilometres travelled in this respect,

18 which is 209 on that day. Moving to the 14th of July on the second page

19 or the third page of the English language translation, where it notes,

20 first working for 7469, VP 7469 is the military postal code number for the

21 Zvornik Infantry Brigade. It also reflects trips back and forth between

22 Standard, Orahovac, Divic. It also lists now trips to the location of

23 Rocevic 164 kilometres that day. And then continuing on the 15th of July,

24 Karakaj, Rocevic. Another trip to Rocevic, Kuzluk. On the 16th, includes

25 trips to Kula, which we know is the school in Pilica. Pilica proper.

Page 4548

1 Local, which we interpret to be the local Zvornik area Standard, Kuzluk,

2 Rocevic. On the 17th the vehicle goes down to Kravica and then back to

3 the Zvornik area. So as you can tell, the pattern of travel for this

4 particular vehicle from the 13th to the 17th, many of the locations that

5 this vehicle stops at are, in fact, known holding sites for Bosnian Muslim

6 men in schools in the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

7 Q. Mr. Butler, let me ask you just about one of those sites,

8 Orahovac. Now, Orahovac -- we've heard about Orahovac on the 13th --

9 excuse me, the 14th of July where prisoners were held and executed. Do

10 you know if there was any military purpose for that school prior to --

11 prior to the 14th or after the 14th of July. Just give us a little bit of

12 background on Orahovac, that school?

13 A. At one point in time in late 1992, the school was actually used as

14 a headquarters for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. But in July 1995, to the

15 best of my knowledge in researching the documents and other information,

16 that school had no potential use or no active military use from the

17 beginning of July until approximately 16 or 17 July. On or about the 17th

18 of July when the unit of the 4th Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade

19 departed the Bratunac area and was reassigned back to the Zvornik Brigade

20 area, that battalion was garrisoned at that school in Orahovac. But

21 during the first month of -- the first couple of weeks of July, there was

22 no significant military purpose for that school.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I -- just a point of clarification.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Earlier, and I failed to jump up fast enough, when

Page 4549

1 the gentleman was talking about July 13th, he had indicated that there

2 were 209 miles, I believe, or kilometres, but there seems to be -- and he

3 made references to the Orahovac on that instance. But there doesn't seem

4 to be anything on that line and I guess I want some clarification, because

5 we have two July 13ths, one designating 209 kilometres, but the one

6 dealing with Orahovac doesn't have anything. So if he could clarify that

7 for us.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Since this question is related to the

9 clarification, I think this intervention is up to the point.

10 Mr. McCloskey, could you ask some questions to this witness so

11 that we could have a clearer picture.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Butler, Mr. Karnavas -- you see what he's pointing out?

14 A. This is the B/C/S original of that particular log sheet. If

15 you'll notice the last two lines, you can see where the number of trips

16 travelled -- they clearly combine both of the lines, and the writing is

17 actually going right through the line, indicating that it's covering both

18 of those columns. For clarity in the English language translation, the

19 translator has just placed it on one line, but I think it's clear from the

20 B/C/S that what we're talking about is the combined trips of those two

21 columns or those two rows.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. And what is the next exhibit in this area?

23 A. The next exhibit is Prosecution Exhibit 509, which is the

24 operations duty log of the forward command post of the Zvornik Infantry

25 Brigade, which was established at Kitovnice. And in this particular

Page 4550

1 document on page 6 of the English language translation, the notation on 13

2 July by Major Galic of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, that he took over

3 duty unscheduled from Lieutenant Drago Nikolic at 2300 hours that evening.

4 Q. And why do you find that significant?

5 A. In this respect in time by approximately 2300 hours on 13 July

6 1995, buses were already -- the first convoys of buses carrying Bosnian

7 Muslim men were already en route from Bratunac towards the school in

8 Orahovac. And according to survivor statements and other military police

9 documents which we have, the military police and the buses started

10 arriving at the school approximately midnight or shortly thereafter.

11 In this particular instance, Drago Nikolic being relieved of his

12 responsibility at the IKM to oversee this process is a natural course of

13 events. And as I've always noted, this is an exchange that could only

14 take place with the approval of the brigade, at that time, deputy

15 commander. This is not something that these two officers in and of

16 themselves could have effected without approval of the commander.

17 Q. And has the testimony of Mr. Obrenovic confirmed your initial

18 analysis on that point?

19 A. Yes, sir, in that respect it's consistent.

20 Q. And you mentioned other military police documents relating the

21 military police to Orahovac. What were you referring to?

22 A. One of them in specific we'll get to in a future exhibit, which is

23 the July 1995 roster of the military police company of the Zvornik

24 Infantry Brigade, which shows where locations of each military police

25 person are on a given day. And there will be some notations on that which

Page 4551

1 will indicate military police being present at Orahovac on the 14th.

2 There is another document which is part of my narrative report, which is

3 from the rear services branch, noting that approximately midnight on the

4 13th of July, a truck was dispatched to Orahovac to provide food and water

5 for the military police who were present at -- who were present and

6 arriving at the school. So it's putting all of these together is where I

7 make my assessment that approximately midnight the first contingent of

8 military police arrived at the school in Orahovac where they would begin

9 guarding the prisoners, and the prisoners started arriving shortly

10 thereafter.

11 Q. Okay. All right.

12 A. The next document is Prosecution Exhibit 511, and it is the first

13 page of the military police roster for July of 1995. And it's a somewhat

14 difficult document between the English and B/C/S translation, and for

15 clarity sake, this is what the actual B/C/S version of the document page 1

16 looks like. And our translators just did not put in the numbers because

17 they are evident in Latin text. And of course on this side, notes July of

18 1995. In this particular respect, it is a handwritten listing of the

19 individuals assigned to the military police. And notations as to where

20 everyone is on given days.

21 If I can go back to the English language translation version in

22 this particular case. This will be the first page. What this document

23 indicates in the original B/C/S version that I have to note was altered

24 before it became -- before it came into the possession of the Office of

25 the Prosecutor is that a number, and I believe the exact number is 14, of

Page 4552

1 military police officers were at the school at Orahovac on 14 July 1995.

2 And this will include the commander of the military police company,

3 Captain Miomir Jasikovac. On the back of the B/C/S sheet, there will be a

4 legend in B/C/S which identifies the following symbols. I'll find one

5 more here.

6 On the B/C/S version of this document, you have it here. What you

7 will be unable to see on the Xerox copies but is evident on the original

8 as well as in the Dutch laboratory reports on the document is that legend

9 notations O for Orahovac and R for Rocevic have been erased.

10 Q. Does it actually say R for Rocevic?

11 A. I believe does, sir, yes.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, we did not bring that original

14 today. We can bring it to you. I was not -- I don't believe that is

15 really a contested issue, but we can provide you the original, and there

16 is an expert report that points out what Mr. Butler is saying as well.

17 Q. Mr. Butler can you describe -- can you go back to the original log

18 and explain to the Court how you believe this altering was done and on

19 what dates.

20 A. On the day listing for 14 July for the military police officers,

21 and they are listed by name and by narrative, what will happen is that the

22 notations, the original handwritten notations for O will have been erased

23 and a T indicating that the troops are actually out on the terrain will

24 have been replacing it. And on the 15th, you will have similar notations

25 and erasure marks for, I believe, a lesser number of military police at

Page 4553

1 Rocevic.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I'm

4 not sure whether the Prosecutor will be paying attention to this exhibit

5 P109. It is the book of the duty operations officer at the forward

6 command post. And since I see that we are moving forward, I would kindly

7 ask, now that we have the opportunity, to raise this issue of the

8 authenticity of this document, it's provenance. How did the Prosecution

9 get it in the first place in order to have a basis for the answers that

10 were already provided by the witness concerning the contents for the 13th

11 at the forward command post. So where does this document come from? If

12 we settle that, I will not be coming back to this issue anymore.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Please lay some foundations by

14 asking some questions to this witness.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

16 Q. If we can go back to the forward command post logbook that you've

17 referred to.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for Your Honours' knowledge, we have an index

19 of all Mr. Butler's exhibits and where they came from that we'll be

20 providing and, of course, have been provided to the Defence. But I can

21 certainly in -- especially on documents the Defence is concerned about

22 have Mr. Butler talk about that, as I will.

23 Q. Mr. Butler, where did this, to your knowledge, logbook, the

24 forward command post logbook, come from?

25 A. This particular document was obtained by the Office of the

Page 4554

1 Prosecutor during its search of the headquarters of the former Zvornik

2 Brigade in early 1998.

3 Q. And have you had a chance to review the original document for the

4 analysis you've been speaking of?

5 A. Yes, sir, I have.

6 Q. Okay. All right. And if we could go on to the next in the

7 series.

8 A. This is Prosecution Exhibit 512, which I only highlight before the

9 Court as the report of the Dutch forensic laboratory with respect to the

10 erasure markings.

11 Q. And did you use this and study this report in your overall

12 analysis?

13 A. Yes, sir, I did, with respect to the erasure markings. Again,

14 however, I would note that I've also reviewed the original document and

15 the erasure markings are fairly evident by the naked eye. They don't

16 require a whole lot of work to see those.

17 Q. All right. And to clarify, Mr. Butler, on the report regarding R,

18 I don't see any specific reference to Rocevic. Could you be mistaken on

19 that?

20 A. I will have to check back. If I'm mistaken, then I will apologise

21 for that. Yes, sir, I apologise for that. I am, in fact, mistaken.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. I told you this wouldn't be the last mistake.

24 Q. Well, we'll identify them as we go. And what is the next document

25 you want to discuss?

Page 4555

1 A. Continuing on with the company logs, I would like to discuss

2 document -- the Prosecution Exhibit 514, which is the -- in English, this

3 is the second page of it, but this is the log of the engineering company

4 of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade for 1995. In this particular document, I

5 would raise to the Court's attention in the 3rd Platoon, there will be a

6 number of individuals and their duties will be listed as RGM. Those

7 individuals are, in fact, heavy equipment operators, and we will see their

8 names listed on the logs or vehicle logs of pieces of earth-moving

9 equipment that are subsequently involved in the burial of bodies after

10 mass executions.

11 Turning to Prosecution Exhibit 515, this is the vehicle log for a

12 backhoe excavator, registration number C-3117 for the period 1 through 31

13 July 1995. The two individuals noted on it are also on the engineer

14 company list as heavy equipment operators. This particular document

15 reflects that on 14 July 1995, working for the VRS, the machine travelled

16 from Base, which is in this context is the base of the engineer company

17 Orahovac, and returned. It notes the activity trench digging, and notes

18 that this operation took six hours.

19 Q. Are you aware from your study of the materials any engineering

20 work taking place in and around Orahovac, aside from the grave digging

21 that survivors talked about?

22 A. No, sir. The only activity that I'm aware of is the grave digging

23 activity.

24 Q. All right. Now, could we go to Exhibit 513. I know I may have

25 gotten you a little off the -- our order, but can you describe -- and

Page 4556

1 we're going to need to come up a little bit, what this is the English

2 translation of. Could we come out so the ELMO can see that completely.

3 Mr. ELMO.

4 A. While that's occurring, this document is an extract from the

5 engineer company commander's logbook or orders book which runs through the

6 period of July 1995. This orders book was also seized by the Office of

7 the Prosecutor in the search of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade in early

8 1998.

9 Q. Can you briefly describe your knowledge to what this function of

10 this book was.

11 A. The function of this book is that in the morning of every day, the

12 commander or its representative would list the daily tasks of the unit.

13 And as you compare the tasks listed here from 1 through 5 --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. Maybe

16 it's interpretation. I see "commander" in the transcript, and in fact the

17 differences between commander and commanding officer, since this is

18 pivoting around the commander of the company, I would like the witness

19 when he says "commander," to specify whose commander or whose commanding

20 officer.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can clarify that. He's talking

22 about --

23 Q. Mr. Butler, who are you talking about when you're talking about

24 the engineering company?

25 A. In this particular instance, the engineering company commander is

Page 4557

1 Dragan Jevtic.

2 Q. All right. And before you were interrupted, you were discussing

3 briefly the function of this book.

4 A. As I had indicated, in this particular case the daily orders of

5 the unit were placed down. And it indicated what tasks the unit would be

6 involved in through the course of the day. It also reported some of the

7 more administrative manners with respect to guard duty at the explosive

8 depot and who the duty officer of the company was and whether days off

9 could be taken.

10 Q. I notice number 3 on task is to set an ambush with combat group,

11 on the order of the brigade chief of staff. Can you briefly tell us what

12 you think that is.

13 A. If we refer back to testimony that's before the Court as well as

14 documents that are in my narrative, as the context of the history

15 indicates, by the evening of 12 July 1995, and through the day of the 13th

16 of July, 1995, a group of individuals from the engineer company led by

17 their commander were assembled and were taken into the field by then-Major

18 Obrenovic as part of other forces that were to block and ambush the Muslim

19 column. And I believe that item 3 reflects that activity.

20 Q. Okay. And the original of this particular document, do you have

21 that with you. Do you know at the bottom, is there a signature for the

22 commander?

23 A. Yes, sir, there is. And unfortunately it's covered by the exhibit

24 sticker on this particular document.

25 Q. All right. And can you -- in that -- the signature, that has been

Page 4558

1 acknowledged to be the signature of Dragan Jevtic. Is that correct?

2 A. That is correct. However, it should be noted that as we inquired

3 on that, given Mr. Jevtic's presence in the field during this period, it

4 was his indication that these documents or this book, that he signed it

5 for the blank pages of it after he had returned from the operation. So

6 there is no instance in this particular case where the commander came back

7 from the field every day to sign the morning orders book.

8 Q. All right. Now, this is for 14 July. You have just gone over a

9 logbook for an excavator working at Orahovac on the 14th of July. I don't

10 see any tasks here for the 14th July. How can you explain that?

11 A. No, sir. What that indicates to me is that the orders to the

12 engineering company to have earth-moving equipment go to Orahovac were

13 received after the notations in this book were laid out for the day, which

14 would mean sometime in the late morning, early afternoon, the engineer

15 company received these orders, not in the morning.

16 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document.

17 A. This document is Prosecution Exhibit 516. And this is the vehicle

18 work log of what is a vehicle known as a Torpedo Excavator. On the top,

19 it highlights the notation Birac Holding, which indicates to me that this

20 was a piece of equipment normally associated with that particular civilian

21 engineering company and was requisitioned during some part of this month

22 and certainly these days for use by the military.

23 Q. And how -- what do you know, if anything, about that

24 requisitioning process?

25 A. Normally, given the fact that it is engineering equipment in this

Page 4559

1 particular case, that requisitioning process normally would take place

2 first through the principal staff officer, which in this particular

3 instance would be Major Jokic, the chief of engineering services of the

4 Zvornik Brigade, it would also go through Captain Sreten Milosevic, who is

5 the chief of rear services, and then the request would be made through the

6 Ministry of Defence office in Zvornik for the particular piece of

7 equipment. That is the formalised process that should have taken place.

8 I don't know whether that process may have been streamlined as a result of

9 the activities that were occurring.

10 Q. Do you know actually when that process for this machine took

11 place? Could it have taken place in June or July before the Srebrenica

12 mess?

13 A. No, sir, I don't. Again while the vehicle work log notes that

14 it's valid from 1 to 31 July, 1995, the first notation for fuel for the

15 month of July is listed as 11 July.

16 Q. All right. Now, the -- are there any indications -- who are

17 these -- can we tell from this form who Ristanovic and Milos Mitrovic are?

18 A. Both those individuals are identified, going back to the engineer

19 company roster. From the 3rd Platoon, the Heavy Equipment Platoon, number

20 9, Ristanovic. And on the second grouping, number 8, Milos Mitrovic.

21 Q. And that RGM --

22 A. Construction machine operator. There is on this particular page,

23 which is page 6 of the English language translation, in very small writing

24 there will be a footnote indicating the English language translation of

25 that.

Page 4560

1 Q. Is that a reflection of the actual original document or an

2 interpreter's interpretation of what that means?

3 A. This is the original document. It says RGM, but of course there's

4 nothing on the bottom, which would indicate that that would be an

5 interpreter's ...

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Going back down to 516, the second page indicating usage of the

8 vehicle notes that on 11 July 1995 the vehicle was engaged for four hours

9 digging up cherry trees at the military farm. It notes on 14 July 1995 it

10 was engaged for five hours digging trenches in Orahovac. And there are

11 subsequent notations on the 16th of July indicating digging trenches in

12 Kozluk, which we will get to later in time.

13 Q. Why don't you just, while we've got this document up there, tell

14 us what you think these Kozluk notations mean.

15 A. The notations for Kozluk are associated with the burial of bodies

16 at the location of the former bottle factory and Kozluk, and I believe the

17 investigation has determined that the Bosnian Muslims from the school in

18 Rocevic were buried at that location.

19 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next exhibit. I believe it is 517.

20 A. That is correct, sir.

21 Q. And what is this?

22 A. This is the vehicle work log for a TAM 75 truck, registration

23 number M-5264. And this particular vehicle, according to other vehicle

24 records that we have, is working for the engineering company of the

25 Zvornik Infantry Brigade at that time and is assigned to that unit.

Page 4561

1 Q. Do you know a TAM 75?

2 A. If I recall correctly, the TAM 75 is a medium capacity cargo

3 truck.

4 Q. So what do you make of this vehicle log and this TAM?

5 A. The driver is a member of the engineering company and he's listed

6 on that log sheet. And in this particular instance, highlighting the

7 activities of this truck for 14, 15, 16 and 17 July 1995, indicating that

8 on the 14th of July multiple trips between the base, the engineering

9 company headquarters and Orahovac. On the 15th of July, similar trips and

10 in one handwritten notation it says, "Three times between Base and

11 Orahovac." And during this period of time from late afternoon on the 14th

12 until approximately 2300 hours on the 14th, the engineer equipment company

13 is working. The equipment is working digging graves sites and then work

14 resumes at first light on the morning of the 15th. Continuing on to the

15 16th, you see trips between Kuzluk, Orahovac, back and forth to Kuzluk and

16 Orahovac. Again reflecting movement of engineer equipment from Orahovac

17 to the grave sites or the sites where they're digging graves in Kozluk.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, it seems to me that there's some

19 problems with the LiveNote, but now it's okay. But anyway, that paragraph

20 will be made out after the session. Since the LiveNote is okay, you may

21 move on.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I did not see that, Your Honour.

23 Q. All right. Mr. Butler, if you can continue just to describe the

24 daily activity of this truck and your knowledge briefly related to each

25 day that is going on.

Page 4562

1 A. If we look at this instance on 17 July notes trips back and

2 forth between Kula and Base. Now, as I've previously indicated in my

3 testimony, Orahovac, Kozluk are -- in the case of Orahovac, it's both an

4 execution and a burial site. Kozluk is a known burial site. And Kula is

5 a -- the school in Pilica, which is also a known holding site.

6 Q. And an engineering vehicle -- let's go on to the next document. I

7 believe it's 518. What is this?

8 A. This document is an extract of a fuel dispersal logbook that the

9 OTP seized during its search of the former headquarters of the Zvornik

10 Infantry Brigade. For further clarification, this is the B/C/S front

11 cover of that book. On the 14th of July, it reflects that 200 litres of

12 D2 diesel fuel was dispersed to the engineering which corresponds with

13 their use of the equipment on the 14th of July 1995. I would also

14 highlight for the future, in notation 685 on 17 July, you will see a

15 notation for 100 litres of D2 for a BGH-700. That is another piece of

16 earth-moving equipment that we will see associated with burial activity at

17 the Branjevo Military Farm on 17 July 1995.

18 Q. All right. What is the next document you've chosen?

19 A. The next document, staying with the theme of the events that are

20 occurring on 14 July 1995, is Prosecution Exhibit 227, which is an

21 intercept between General Zivanovic and Major Jokic that occurs at 0910

22 hours on 14 July 1995.

23 Q. All right. Well, who do you think Major Jokic is in this context

24 of this conversation?

25 A. On 14 July 1995, Major Jokic is functioning as the duty officer of

Page 4563

1 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. He is the duty operations officer.

2 Q. All right. And is that mentioned anywhere in this conversation?

3 A. In this particular conversation, not only does Major Jokic

4 compromise his own identity, it's what we call in the business a voice

5 compromise. He also compromises his duty position that day, as a duty

6 officer.

7 Q. And where is that?

8 A. I believe it is approximately half way down the page. You see the

9 notation "J: Here from, as a duty officer."

10 Q. Now, 14 July you have -- you testified earlier that

11 General Zivanovic was no longer the commander. How do you explain

12 General Zivanovic being in a conversation with Major Jokic?

13 A. In this particular instance, we know that General Zivanovic

14 remained in the Vlasenica command post. As indicated in the -- we had

15 always suspected -- let me bring a little history into that. This has

16 always been a rather large issue with respect to the issue of

17 General Zivanovic and when he relinquished command of the corps. In

18 reviewing this issue and in doing the associated analysis, there were some

19 indications that on 14 July 1995, that there were some communication

20 difficulties between the established Drina Corps forward command post in

21 Krivace and the rest of the brigade. And at the time I indicated that

22 that may be some possible reason why they're calling the Vlasenica

23 headquarters. It may also very well be that Major Jokic is calling his

24 superior duty officer, which on 14 July would be Colonel Predrag Jokic

25 [sic] at the Drina Corps, and in fact is placed in the conversation also

Page 4564

1 with General Zivanovic to brief him of the situation.

2 The last piece of information which was recently received on that

3 came in concert with the 14 July daily combat report of the Drina Corps,

4 which did indicate that they were having communications difficulties

5 between the Vlasenica headquarters and the IKM in Pribicevac. So in this

6 particular case --

7 Q. The IKM in Pribicevac?

8 A. I'm sorry. The IKM in Krivace, which was for Zepa.

9 Q. I'm sorry. Our pronunciation may not clearly identify for the

10 Court what we're talking about. Do you see that on the map, the forward

11 command post for the Zepa Operation

12 A. Yes, sir. I'll point that out on the map -- for the Zepa

13 Operation -- this was the forward command post for the Srebrenica

14 Operation, which was Pribicevac. For the Zepa Operation, the Drina Corps

15 established a forward command post in Krivace.

16 Q. Thank you. Again that's the 16.1 exhibit that Mr. Butler's

17 referring to.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just one

20 more thing in the transcript that could be a problem, that's what we've

21 been discussing for a long time since last week. The expert said a second

22 ago that a conversation took place between duty officer Palma and duty

23 officer Predrag Jokic at the Drina Corps. Is that a mistake? Could it be

24 Predrag Jocic, with a C instead of a K. I think we should clarify this

25 now to avoid further misunderstanding, because it seems to me that the

Page 4565

1 duty officer on Zlatar at that time was Predrag Jokic or maybe Jocic.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think your intervention is about a

3 clarification. Let's make that clear.


5 Q. Well, Mr. Butler, could you -- do you understand what

6 Mr. Stojanovic means?

7 A. Yes, sir. And if I could have a second. I will make apologies in

8 advance because I think we're all a victim of my poor pronunciation of

9 names. I believe there is a document here which, if I can just show in

10 advance -- assuming I do have this one, but it is the individual in

11 question is a Colonel Predrag -- it's Jocic, J-o-c-i-c. I do believe I

12 may have a document which shows his name listed. If not, I can get one at

13 the break to make it perfectly clear.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think there would be no

16 problem, because that is precisely what we are saying. The man's name was

17 Jocic, and that was precisely why we were asking those questions of people

18 who did the intercepts. And it could have been a problem if it had

19 remained Jokic in the transcript. I think we've clarified it now. Thank

20 you.


22 Q. Mr. Butler, in this exhibit, 227, is there any indication that

23 Predrag Jocic was involved in this?

24 A. No, sir. And like I said, understanding with respect to the

25 intercept that over sometimes poor-quality lines the name would be

Page 4566

1 garbled. That's why I value instances where not only will one of the

2 subscribers compromise himself by just a name, he will also compromise

3 himself by his rank or other identifying features. So in that respect, as

4 much as possible, I try to take those into effect when offer up my

5 analysis of whom I think conversations are occurring between and what they

6 potentially mean.

7 Q. Getting back, I think, to my original question about

8 General Zivanovic, what was he -- to your knowledge, what was he doing in

9 the Vlasenica headquarters on the 14th of July?

10 A. To my knowledge, General Zivanovic was packing up his personal

11 effects to leave the headquarters. Certainly while he would no longer be

12 the corps commander, as a general and the former corps commander, he would

13 just not the taken himself out of what, as it turns out to be, a

14 developing significant military situation just by virtue of not being the

15 commander. And in this particular instance, he does and first take the

16 report of Major Jokic, wants to know where he's receiving his information

17 from. And in the second page indicates that Mane needs to be informed.

18 And in this respect, Mane is Mane Djuric, the deputy head of the Zvornik

19 CSB. And that is clarified in the next statement from General Zivanovic.

20 Q. Mr. Jokic also says, "The chief of staff Obrenovic is coming now,

21 so we'll take some steps immediately." What do you take that to mean?

22 A. Given the context of this conversation on 14 July 1995 at 0910

23 hours in the morning, I take that as an indication that Major Jokic

24 believes that Major Obrenovic is in-bound from his location in the field,

25 and those steps will be taken, that he will inform him as soon as he

Page 4567

1 arrives.

2 Q. In-bound where?

3 A. In-bound from his field location to the headquarters of the

4 Zvornik Brigade.

5 Q. From the intercepts or any documents that you have reviewed in

6 this case, have you been able to find any indications that Major Obrenovic

7 actually went to the brigade command on the 14th?

8 A. I do not believe that we have other specific intercepts or

9 documents which would indicate the physical presence of Major Obrenovic at

10 the brigade command during the day of 14 July 1995.

11 Q. Now, this conversation, is there -- is this a normal -- is this

12 relatively -- should you consider this normal for the duty officer to be

13 taking part in this sort of exchange, or is this something out of the

14 ordinary?

15 A. No, sir. If you refer back to the 1983 command and staff

16 regulations, this type of a conversation is a classical function of the

17 brigade or of any duty operations officer.

18 Q. All right. And let's go to the next exhibit. I believe as we're

19 still on 14 July, you've chosen Exhibit 519.

20 A. Yes, sir. This is the regular or daily combat report, 14 July

21 1995, from the command of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade to the command

22 of the Drina Corps. It lays out in some detail the enemy situation as

23 well as the primary tasks for the units. It notes that at the time of the

24 writing of this report, one large column of Muslim extremists was routed

25 at Velja Glava, and that is now returning towards Mladevac and Zljebac,

Page 4568

1 while another went towards Bijela Zemlja.

2 If I can move to the original B/C/S version of this document, it

3 indicates the report going out at approximately 14 July, 1840 hours.

4 Q. Do we get any indications from this document who may have drafted

5 the report?

6 A. Going back to the English language translation, you see the

7 initials DJ/MB. Given conversations that I've had with other VRS officers

8 who perform the duty operations position, this indicates that the initials

9 DJ are the person who actually drafted the report. And MB would be the

10 individual who typed the report. Certainly within the context of all of

11 the known events, this report in that situation would have been drafted by

12 Major Jokic as the duty officer that day.

13 Q. To clarify something, you referred to your conversations with VRS

14 people about -- are you talking about just the regular process of --

15 A. Yes, sir, just the regular process as not only my personal

16 conversations, but interviews that were taken by investigators who were

17 directed to ask these specific questions.

18 Q. So you're not making reference that somebody told you this was

19 Dragan Jokic. You're just talking about the process by which these things

20 are drafted?

21 A. That is correct, sir.

22 Q. So what do you base your opinion that this would have been Dragan

23 Jokic on?

24 A. The initials DJ located here, coupled with the knowledge that on

25 that day he was the duty operations officer. And further, in the absence

Page 4569

1 of the commander or chief of staff, as a duty operations officer, it would

2 have been his responsibility to draft the daily report for the brigade.

3 Q. All right.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really do not

6 want to press the point, but it may be important in the future. DJ/MB are

7 the initials that are in the translation, MB, rather. Since the document

8 is originally in Cyrillic, the initials are actually MV. Could Mr. Butler

9 please note that. This is for Misko V. Vasic, that is the person who

10 created the document, and this is a person who will be of interest to the

11 Defence in terms of authorship over the text. That is why I digressed and

12 that is why I intervened. So the initials are not MB, as stated, but MV.

13 Thank you. I beg your pardon once again.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think this issue that you

15 could raise it during your cross-examination in the future. But this

16 Trial Chamber would like to regard it as a matter of clarification.

17 So, Mr. McCloskey, would you please ask some questions to this

18 witness on this issue.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. And thank you for clearing up

20 the translation of Cyrillic. That's not always perfect, of course.

21 Q. Mr. Butler, can you -- first of all, the second set of initials,

22 did you learn who the -- not who by identity, but who by process that

23 ought to be? What function does that person normally serve?

24 A. That second set of individuals is the assistant or clerk of the

25 duty operations officer.

Page 4570

1 Q. Okay. And do you know anything about -- specifically about the

2 person that Mr. Stojanovic mentioned?

3 A. No, sir, I don't, in detail, have any knowledge of that

4 individual. It's -- again, being handicapped by the ability to not read

5 Cyrillic, I have to take it at face value with respect to the translation.

6 But that is something that I could check on to verify.

7 Q. All right. Let's go to the next exhibit.

8 A. This is Prosecution Exhibit 229, and it is an intercept from 14

9 July 1995 at 2038 hours. And just in highlighting the first line, there

10 is a notation there that the frequency was not active from 1130 hours

11 until 2020 hours that particular day, which was one of the first

12 indications that I had that on that day that there may be communications

13 difficulties with the overall communications network, which might preclude

14 why in the greater context of intercepts we have very few intercepts,

15 particularly with General Krstic or other players of the Drina Corps,

16 during the greater part of that day.

17 Q. Can you remind us also what was going on on the 14th in terms of

18 military action towards Zepa.

19 A. With respect to Zepa, by 1800 hours on 13 July, the command post

20 of the -- or the forward command post had been activated, and the plan was

21 that by the early morning hours on 14 July 1995, the VRS would kick off

22 offensive activities against the Zepa enclave. It's my understanding

23 that, in fact, did occur on time. So during the day of the 14th, those

24 individuals at the IKM were dealing with the related issues of military

25 operations towards Zepa.

Page 4571

1 Q. Where do you think Krstic was on the 14th?

2 A. I believe that General Krstic on the 14th of July was at the IKM

3 in Krivace.

4 Q. So getting back to this exhibit, 229, it says that it's between

5 General Zivanovic at Zlatar and Major Jokic, and it says in parentheses

6 Palma duty officer. What do you take from this particular conversation?

7 A. Given the time by 2038 hours and placing this in context, not only

8 through the day of the 13th, but when they could on the 14th, the Zvornik

9 Brigade had been indicating to the command of the Drina Corps that they

10 were being faced with an overwhelming number of Bosnian Muslim soldiers

11 and individuals in the column who were rapidly moving into the deep part

12 of the territory of the brigade. And as I indicated in my narrative with

13 the surrounding contextual documents, that -- those initial reports were

14 met with a certain degree of skepticism by the Drina Corps command, and if

15 you go back to the last intercept exhibit, it even notes Zivanovic saying

16 that the numbers -- the people are lying.

17 By this time on the evening of 14 July 1995, certainly the scope

18 of the size and the threat that this column presented to the Zvornik area

19 was finally becoming clear even at the headquarters of the Drina Corps.

20 And what you have here is a reflection of General Zivanovic who is still

21 at the Drina Corps basically passing orders through the duty officer,

22 Major Jokic, for Obrenovic.

23 Q. I note in the third line Zivanovic says to Jokic, "Take this as an

24 order." What do you make of that comment?

25 A. Presumably by then, everybody in the Drina Corps would have been

Page 4572

1 aware that General Zivanovic was no longer the commander of the corps,

2 given the fact that the order indicating that had gone out the night

3 before. However, one of the normal principles of command and staff is

4 that officers are only charged to give orders which they can do so under

5 their competence or authority. So clearly in this instance, because of

6 the events that were happening on the ground, General Zivanovic wanted to

7 make it clear that he was issuing this as an order. The presumption

8 behind it being that he had either discussed the issue with General Krstic

9 or someone at the Main Staff - we don't know the answer to that and was

10 passing an order due to the urgency of the situation and wanted to make it

11 clear to the Palma duty officer that he was issuing this as an order and

12 that it needed to be passed down to Obrenovic.

13 Q. Is there any of the information in this -- and I won't go over all

14 the information with you, but the basic descriptions of the military

15 information that appears to be falsified or absolutely incorrect to you?

16 A. No, sir. And I just want to highlight the last line in this

17 particular instance, and they are apparently still having some modulation

18 problems with the communications gear. But within the larger context of

19 the conversation, this appears to be a reflection of the Bosnian Muslim

20 column's location and situation as the Zvornik Brigade and Drina Corps

21 understood it at that time. And as we go to the Zvornik Brigade duty

22 officer's logbook, we will see these same type of notations.

23 Q. All right. Well, before we get there, let's go to the next

24 exhibit --

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, could we stop here.

Page 4573

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, yes, please.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at quarter to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, let's come to the next exhibit.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Butler, I believe we're on Exhibit 232. And this is an

8 intercept 14 July at 2102 hours. This is an intercept the Court, I

9 believe, has seen a few times, so I just want to get your views on a

10 couple of things. Let's go down to the middle of it after the mention of,

11 "Is that Beara? Jokic here." Beara can't be heard. And Jokic says:

12 "We were together, Colonel, sir, number 155 called you and asked you to

13 call him urgently."

14 Then it goes on to say: "That means the superior command."

15 What do you think this number, 155, refers to?

16 A. The phone number reference 155, as indicated in other intercept

17 exhibits as well as a notation in the duty officer logbook reflects the

18 phone number of General Miletic at a location called Panorama. Panorama

19 is the telephonic code name for the headquarters of the Main Staff.

20 Q. All right. Then, according to this, Jokic says: "Hey, we have

21 huge problems over here." Then Beara can't be heard and Jokic says:

22 "There are big problems. Well, with the people. I mean with the

23 parcel." And then Beara can't be heard and Jokic says: "Who? And Drago

24 is nowhere around. I don't know where the others are all day."

25 What do you take, if anything, this reference to "big problems --"

Page 4574

1 well, before we get to the problems, what do you take "the people, I mean

2 the parcel," to be a reference to?

3 A. In this particular context, I believe that the people/parcel

4 references that he's talking about are those Bosnian Muslim prisoners that

5 are located at schools in the zone of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

6 Q. Why do you say that?

7 A. In context with the conversation first with Colonel Beara, I don't

8 think that Colonel Beara is looking for information with respect to the

9 numbers of individuals in the column. And second, when looking at the

10 next sentence in context, "Drago is nowhere around." Drago, first name of

11 Drago Nikolic, Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, the security officer of the

12 Zvornik Infantry Brigade. So I believe that the proper context of this

13 conversation is, in fact, discussing the situation with prisoners in the

14 schools in the zone of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

15 Q. All right. Can you tell us -- just remind us at 2102 hours on the

16 14th, what would that problem have been, in your opinion?

17 A. One of the things that when you look at the lash-up in context

18 between the movement of the column into the zone of the Zvornik Brigade,

19 and the issues pertaining to the guarding and execution of prisoners of

20 war, is the fact that the Zvornik Brigade does not become significantly

21 involved. The first major contact does not occur until approximately 2000

22 to 2100 hours on 13 July 1995 -- I'm sorry, 14 July 1995. If you refer

23 back to the daily combat report which was published at 1800 hours that

24 day, it does reflect the fact that the situation is normal. And while the

25 brigade is anticipating significant contact, it has not yet occurred. In

Page 4575

1 a subsequent exhibit, you will see the interim combat report, which

2 discusses in detail that first contact.

3 Now, at this point in time, the -- that first contact either has

4 not yet occurred or is just occurring and that the duty officer at the

5 Zvornik Brigade is not aware of all those details yet. And we will see

6 that highlighted as this report comes into the duty officer in that future

7 exhibit.

8 Q. In particular, and I know we've heard a lot of evidence on this,

9 just outline briefly what the problem would be with the prisoners in your

10 opinion at this time of night on the 14th.

11 A. By this time, 2100 hours on 14 July, according to our survivor

12 accounts for Orahovac, the prisoners of war at that point have all been

13 executed. However, there are such large numbers that the burial

14 operations are continuing. Through the evening they'll suspend around

15 midnight and start up the next morning. So while those executions are

16 done, there are still hundreds of bodies on the surface. Our survivor

17 accounts at Petkovci indicate some growing security problems of prisoners

18 now being put in that location. They talk about in some detail about

19 shootings and incidents that are happening in the school proper,

20 indicating that there are concerns at least from the forces that are

21 guarding these people about their ability to safely occur them. We see

22 from our survivor accounts in the Pilica school a similar situation where

23 the school is getting crowded to a point where the forces who are guarding

24 the prisoners are no longer confident in their ability to be able to do

25 that effectively.

Page 4576

1 So I think in this context on the evening of 14 July is what Major

2 Jokic is discussing with respect to the fact that they are having problems

3 with the parcels. The sheer volume of prisoners that are coming in are

4 overwhelming the ability of the Zvornik Brigade to secure them successful.

5 Q. Well, let's go on to the next exhibit if we can. I believe it's

6 233.

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Can you confirm the date of this intercept.

9 A. This intercept is 14 July 1995.

10 Q. All right. Now, it says General Vilotic and Jokic duty officer

11 from Palma. Again, I believe the Court has heard this, but are you aware

12 of any General Vilotic?

13 A. No, sir, I am not. In researching this issue, certainly within

14 the VRS there is no General Vilotic. And to the best of our ability to do

15 so with the records that we have, we have even gone and looked for the

16 name General Vilotic associated with the FRY army. And that name does not

17 come up. But certainly in the context of the VRS, there is no

18 General Vilotic.

19 Q. So who do you think this is a reference to, if there is no

20 General Vilotic?

21 A. I believe this is a reference to General Miletic, who at this time

22 is the chief of staff and acting -- or actually he is the chief of

23 operations of the Main Staff and also performing duties as the acting

24 chief of staff of the Main Staff.

25 Q. All right. And let's just get into the intercept a little bit as

Page 4577

1 we get to the bottom of the half page on the first page. It talks about

2 the chief is still in the field -- sorry, the chief is in the field. And

3 who would that be?

4 A. Well, in this respect, noticing your chief, as he says earlier

5 Obrenovic, I take this to mean the chief of staff of the Zvornik Brigade,

6 which would, at the time, be Obrenovic.

7 Q. Okay. And then Jokic talks about problems at Perunik and then

8 describes them. What in your view are the problems that Jokic is talking

9 about at Perunik and is describing here. "But there's one big group.

10 It's coming this way, towards -- well towards the asphalt, you know. I

11 don't want to say it."

12 A. In this context, Major Jokic is informing General Miletic about

13 the situation with respect to combat operations. Perunik is a terrain

14 feature in the area of the Zvornik Brigade and he's also discussing the

15 issue one group that they're surrounding, meaning elements of the column

16 that they're attempting to surround.

17 Q. All right. So when Jokic says, "Well, we're trying to cut it off,

18 but now we're having some problems. Some have been pushed back and now

19 we're back, linking up, and so on." What do you think he means by that?

20 A. I believe he's discussing, again, the tactical military situation

21 on the ground. His awareness that after the first contact, some of the

22 column they perceive has been pushed back and that they're trying to now

23 reestablish their own lines in order to continue ambush operations and

24 attacking the head of the column.

25 Q. Okay. Then on the top of the next page, "Well, that's it. And

Page 4578

1 those ones promised me some reinforcements, but they still haven't

2 arrived, you know." Jokic says this, according to this intercept. What

3 do you make of that?

4 A. We know from other documents and records, and particularly where

5 we makes reference to the blue ones, that as the situation becomes more

6 aware to everyone within the Drina Corps zone, that efforts are made to

7 bring in, first, other police units from the special police brigade, and

8 get them into the zone of the Zvornik Brigade in order to deal with combat

9 operations. In fact, what happens in this case is those units do arrive,

10 but they are held in the city of Zvornik. They don't report to the army,

11 because of the dire threat that was perceived at the time that the city of

12 Zvornik might actually be the object of attack by the column.

13 Q. So in the section that you believe is Miletic, "Well, check with

14 Vasic," expletive, "everything on two feet must be rounded up, has to be

15 mobilised. Jokic sound the alert there in the town." Who do you think

16 Vasic is?

17 A. In this respect I believe the individual in question is Dragomir

18 Vasic, who is the head of CSB Zvornik.

19 Q. And there is more discussion about -- Miletic says, "Everybody who

20 can carry a gun must go up there." And it goes on a bit. "Everyone must

21 be mobilised." And Jokic says, "Understand, General, sir." Then we don't

22 hear -- we can't understand something from Miletic. And Jokic says,

23 "Obrenovic is really engaged to the maximum."

24 What do you think he is referring to there, that one sentence?

25 A. That particular one sentence, I believe he is referring to the

Page 4579

1 fact that at that time Major Obrenovic is completely engaged with dealing

2 with issues with respect to the Bosnian Muslim column in his zone.

3 Q. Then he says, "We all are, believe me." Then he says, "This

4 packet has done most to ruin us ..." What can you make of that partial

5 comment, "This packet has done most to ruin us"?

6 A. In this respect, I believe that what Major Obrenovic is referring

7 to is the fact that he's now discussing that additional in-bound groups of

8 prisoners --

9 Q. Let me just clarify. I know you've been on direct for too long,

10 but who do you -- I think you said Major Obrenovic?

11 A. I'm sorry. Major Jokic, my apologies. Major Jokic is indicating

12 that the most recent batch of prisoners who had been sent in the zone of

13 the Zvornik Brigade has now completely placed the brigade in a position

14 where they are at the end of their limit to be able to successfully deal

15 with that issue. And he indicates that since this morning we have been

16 reporting on numbers of people, and it trails off.

17 Q. What do you think he means when he says, "We've been reporting on

18 the number of people"? What do you think that is a reference to?

19 A. I believe in this particular context, he is discussing the number

20 of prisoners that have been arriving in the zone of the Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. And could he be speaking of the number of people in the column

22 that have been approaching them that day as well?

23 A. That is a possibility, because we do have intercepts that indicate

24 the numbers of people in the columns and that the Zvornik Brigade has, in

25 fact, been discussing those with the Drina Corps. But for me, the fact

Page 4580

1 that General Miletic doesn't want to discuss that indicates what I believe

2 is my former interpretation. If he was interested as the chief of

3 operations in dealing successfully with the column, he would want to know

4 details about the size of the column and things of that nature.

5 Q. And you're referring to the comment: "Okay, don't talk to me

6 about that"?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. All right. Then there's some more talk about Vasic. But I think

9 that's enough for that exhibit. All right. The next exhibit is 520, I

10 believe.

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And can you tell us what this is.

13 A. This is the interim combat report dated 14 July 1995. And it

14 reflects the events that occurred approximately 2020 hours. And this is

15 the first significant combat activity that occurs in the zone of the

16 Zvornik Brigade, which in fact results in a rupture of the lines of the --

17 between those units that were in ambush position. This is Major Obrenovic

18 telling the command of the Drina Corps that it is realistic to expect a

19 breakthrough in the area of responsibility of the 4th or 7th Battalion,

20 either tonight or early in the morning.

21 Q. And again going down to the initials and based on what we've

22 learned about Cyrillic recently, can you tell us what you think the

23 initials are?

24 A. Looking at the B/C/S version we have DJ and then the same initials

25 MV.

Page 4581

1 Q. So that B is a mistake like the last one?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And the MV, have you had a chance to look at any documents at your

4 fingertips to help us with that?

5 A. This is the July 1995 roster of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade

6 command. This was a prior exhibit. I believe we discussed it on late

7 Tuesday or early Wednesday. I don't have the exhibit number offhand at

8 this moment.

9 Q. Let's then just make reference to the ERN 008 -- 00846881, and

10 we'll fix that with an exhibit number when Janet finds it.

11 A. I believe the individual that we are discussing here is listed as

12 number 4.

13 Q. All right. And is this the document 520, going back to the

14 interim. That last exhibit was 399, that roster of the brigade.

15 This interim combat report, do we see information in this report

16 written down anywhere else on another exhibit we're going to be getting to

17 shortly?

18 A. Yes, sir. We'll see the same information as it is notated in the

19 duty officer's logbook from the duty officer of the Zvornik Infantry

20 Brigade.

21 Q. And just for clarification, that what you're referring to has been

22 referred to by people as the workbook, if we can try to -- and we'll get

23 to that next, I believe.

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. So let's go to that workbook exhibit, if you've got it at your

Page 4582

1 fingertips. I believe it's Exhibit 507. And that is the English version.

2 And can you tell us where the OTP got this from and when you were able to

3 really first look at this in any detail.

4 A. This document was provided by Colonel Dragan Obrenovic as a series

5 of the documents that he provided to the Office of the Prosecutor. I've

6 seen this document in the English language form for roughly about two

7 months. I've seen the original document as well, accompanied with one of

8 our translators. So one of the first things that I have been doing, in

9 effect, while understanding the context of the document, is looking for

10 instances in this particular workbook where I might be able to validate or

11 at least cross-index notations and items with other pieces of information

12 that I have. Clearly, from my own personal background perspective, I

13 recognise that there is at least a potential for this document to have

14 been fabricated. And certainly one of my concerns is in going through

15 this document is to try to find as much other information that I can in

16 order to try and confirm or deny that thesis. So a lot of my work, at

17 least in the early part of that document, was done with respect to trying

18 to determine whether or not we could back up or corroborate notations in

19 this document with other documents within the context of the investigation

20 and in my narrative.

21 Q. So at this stage of your review, have you had enough information

22 to form an opinion yet, or is the -- is the jury still out in your mind on

23 this document's authenticity?

24 A. As an analyst, I never have enough information, but at this point

25 I'm willing to say that the material that's in this log is consistent, not

Page 4583

1 only with the number of specific documents which I'll discuss the Court,

2 but also consistent in context with my broader understanding of the

3 situation and occurrences that happened on the ground in the Zvornik

4 Brigade during that period.

5 Q. But a really good forgery, you would expect that, wouldn't you?

6 A. Yes, sir, absolutely.

7 Q. All right. Well, let's go over some of the information in this.

8 And let's start with the ERN of last three digits -- well, entire ERN

9 03089333, which I think, as we've learned, has been marked 13 July 1995 by

10 Mr. Obrenovic in his analysis.

11 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

12 Q. And could you just go through, commenting on anything in

13 particular you think is relevant. We do not want to go through,

14 obviously, all the detail in the entire book.

15 A. If I can direct the Court's attention to -- in the first instance

16 page 3 of the English language translation, where I've highlighted a time

17 notation of 1315 hours, and underneath it a notation of a bulldozer.

18 Q. What's the significance of that?

19 A. I believe that that notation and the time is relatively consistent

20 with the conversation that Colonel Milanovic had with the Palma duty

21 officer that day looking for earth-moving equipment to have it sent to

22 Konjevic Polje. So that is just one indicator that I used as something

23 where I think there is a potential to corroborate that piece of

24 information with.

25 Q. And just to be clear, you don't believe the duty officer on the

Page 4584

1 13th was Mr. Jokic, do you?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Do you know who the duty officer was on the 13th?

4 A. I believe, and I would like to check my facts on this one, but I

5 believe it was Captain Sreten Milosevic.

6 Q. What else do you want to talk about?

7 A. This is also on the 13th page 5. And while in the greater context

8 of the discussion, this notation here pertaining to a phone call or

9 contact from the president of the Zvornik municipality looking for a

10 flatbed trailer to be sent to Bratunac to bring a bulldozer and then the

11 notation 1000, Colonel Beara passed on the message.

12 At this point in time, notwithstanding the association of

13 Colonel Beara with this, I'm still unable to find any other information

14 which would lend to corroborate that particular comment.

15 Q. This reference to Colonel Beara, does this give us any indication

16 where Colonel Beara might be if this is truly the 13th of July?

17 A. There is no indication on 13 July, just the notation that he

18 passed the message. There is no notation whether it's his physical

19 presence passing on the message or whether it's a telephonic conversation.

20 So there's no way of knowing, in my opinion.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next section you wanted to note.

22 A. On page 7 of the English language translation --

23 Q. And again we have a 14 July underlined, Jokic, which for the

24 record was Mr. Obrenovic's stated. That was his reference.

25 A. In this particular one, a fragment of a note on Colonel Salapura

Page 4585

1 called. Drago and Beara are to report to Golic. The Court is aware of

2 the identification of Drago and Beara. The individual Golic is Major

3 Golic, an intelligence officer with the Drina Corps, and Colonel Salapura

4 is an intelligence officer with the Main Staff intelligence directory.

5 Q. Well, Golic is a pretty common name in Bosnia, isn't it?

6 A. Yes, sir, it is.

7 Q. So why do you think this Golic is the Drina Corps Golic that --

8 from the intel?

9 A. Well, given the fact that while it may be a relatively common

10 name, within the context of the military hierarchy of the brigades in the

11 corps, Major Golic is -- Major Pavle Golic is the only name of that last

12 name that falls within the listing of those officers. And also the

13 association of Drago and Beara as security officers, I believe it's a

14 natural conclusion.

15 Q. Do we see Major Pavle Golic or do we see Major Golic's name come

16 up in other documents related to the murder operation shortly after this?

17 A. We will see Major Golic in a series of intercepts that occur on 16

18 July 1995 with respect to the executions at the Branjevo Military Farm.

19 Q. All right. Just to clarify the record on that, do these

20 intercepts specifically refer to the executions at the farm and Mr. Golic,

21 or are you referring to your interpretation of those intercepts?

22 A. No, sir. As we'll note in those intercepts, that series of

23 intercepts refers to a series of conversations between the Palma duty

24 officer and the duty officer at the Drina Corps as well as the security

25 and rear services branches or the intelligence and rear services branch of

Page 4586

1 the Drina Corps with respect to acquiring 500 litres of fuel for

2 Colonel Popovic to finish his job.

3 Q. Okay. So that -- we'll get to your interpretation on that.

4 There's not a direct reference?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next section you wanted to point out.

7 A. This is the English language, page 9. A 1500 hour reference that

8 Colonel Beara is coming and a fragmentary line, partially Orahovac,

9 Petkovci, Rocevic, Pilica. And notwithstanding the first one, these are

10 all known location sites where Bosnian Muslim men were being detained in

11 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade area.

12 Q. Now, these various notes that you've referred to on the 14th,

13 would this, in your view, be a normal part of the duty officer's job?

14 A. These notes appear to be notations, which again are classical

15 examples of the role and function of a duty officer. The conduit of

16 information coming into the brigade and the notations - and again, I don't

17 want to get into the context of the entire series - but notations of

18 information coming into the brigade and the duty officer or the person

19 writing this particular logbook, the notation, putting down what the

20 significance of that information was and who it was passed to. So these

21 are all consistent functions with that respect.

22 Q. Okay. What else?

23 A. If I can go to page 13 of the English language of this one, I

24 highlight this issue only in respect to the fact that I am aware of what

25 Colonel Obrenovic has said about it, and I want to highlight that at this

Page 4587

1 point in time I'm not in a position to be able to confirm or deny his

2 particular interpretation. It would take some more research and going

3 through records to be able to lend my credence to that. So I just wanted

4 to highlight that, the fact that I'm not in a position to confirm or deny

5 that at this time.

6 Q. Can you just tell us what this -- what the potential options for

7 the meaning of this is, in your opinion.

8 A. Well, there are -- because there are so many -- I mean, first

9 Pelemis is a location, a series of villages. Pelemis is also the last

10 name of a number of people, both inside the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, as

11 well as outside. Certainly the Court is aware of the identification of

12 Milorad Pelemis of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. But there are a number

13 of other individuals with that last name in the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

14 I believe Colonel Obrenovic has indicated that his belief is that the

15 individual in question here is an individual functioning as either the

16 deputy or acting commander of the 1st Infantry Battalion. And his

17 interpretation of having problems with personnel may be related to issues

18 at Pilica. It may also be in respect to issues with elements or reports

19 that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment may have committed executions

20 at Petkovci school.

21 Given the fact that there are so many interpretations, that's why

22 I'm highlighting the fact that at the present point in time, I'm not able

23 to confirm or deny any of these interpretations. We're still doing the

24 research on it.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 4588

1 A. On page 14, there is a notation highlighted Jokic and a delegation

2 from Pilica. In this particular respect, I understand it is a course of

3 interviews conducted by the investigation team. And again, I'm not sure

4 if it's before the Court or not in this respect, but at least one or two

5 individuals from Pilica did go down to the headquarters of the Zvornik

6 Brigade to complain about the circumstances and the crowding of prisoners

7 in Pilica. And then further down on that page, the notation for Beara to

8 call 155. And in this particular case, directly corresponds to one of our

9 prior intercepts. I just want to highlight at this point, with respect to

10 what I'm putting before the Court, I'm only highlighting those issues

11 which I believe have some involvement with the criminal aspects that we

12 see in the Zvornik Brigade. I'm not going through and trying to identify

13 each and every line of the document where I can find a Zvornik Brigade

14 notation in a document or an order or intercept with respect to legitimate

15 combat activities or things of that nature. Some of those I will do

16 because of their large scope and it's clearly evident, but I haven't

17 gotten into the microanalysis to that level.

18 Q. Now, if this is 14 July in the workbook, and if Mr. Jokic is the

19 duty officer on 14 July, would it make sense that Jokic would write down

20 his own name?

21 A. I couldn't speculate to that, sir.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Now, this reference to Beara to call 155, can

23 you tie that into anything from any other information.

24 A. I believe, as I've just noted, going back to one of the prior

25 intercept exhibits, referencing a conversation between Colonel Beara and

Page 4589

1 Major Jokic, and I believe that's Prosecution Exhibit 232, there is a

2 specific reference, and if I can put that back on the ELMO, to the issue

3 of 155 called and asked you to call him urgently.

4 Q. Okay. Let's keep going.

5 A. The -- in this context, the last issues I'd like to highlight for

6 the day of 14 July pertain another notation from Beara that Drago is to

7 report and a notation that at 0900 hours, Beara is coming. I take that to

8 mean that -- a notation that Beara is expected to be in the Zvornik

9 Brigade headquarters by 9.00 the next morning, which will be the 15th.

10 Certainly in context with the intercept that we've just discussed,

11 Colonel Beara is not at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters at that time;

12 he's at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

13 Q. How do you -- I'm sorry, I did not ask you that at that

14 conversation, so could you put that intercept back on the screen and tell

15 us why you conclude based on that intercept. Again, that's exhibit --

16 A. 232.

17 Q. Why you think Beara is where he is.

18 A. The notation in the text, "Hello Badem, let me talk to Beara."

19 Badem is the telephonic code name for the headquarters of the 1st Bratunac

20 Light Infantry Brigade.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you.

22 A. And the last item on page 15 of the English language translation

23 of the workbook reflects the report for the corps. And as you can see,

24 that is almost the verbatim text of the 14 July interim combat report that

25 is sent from the Zvornik Brigade to the command of the Drina Corps

Page 4590

1 discussing the situation with the column.

2 Q. For the record, that interim report was 520.

3 One other question, Mr. Butler, before you leave that on the

4 "0900, Beara is coming." On the intercepts you've gone over already that

5 involve Beara and Zivanovic and extension 139, does that help you in

6 looking into the location of Beara and the meaning of this intercept?

7 A. Well, I had made that analysis even for the Krstic case several

8 years ago, that I believe that Colonel Beara was making the phone call to

9 General Zivanovic and then later to General Krstic from the headquarters

10 of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. This piece of data just helps to lend

11 more evidence to that analysis.

12 Q. Okay. Well, let's -- before we get into -- let's save the 15th in

13 the book until we go through some of the documents for the 15th. So I

14 believe we need to go back to 534, if I haven't confused the issue.

15 A. 534 is another extract from a logbook which was turned over to the

16 Office of the Prosecutor several months ago by Colonel Obrenovic.

17 Q. What logbook, what's your understanding of what that logbook is?

18 A. This I call the garrison duty officer logbook. There were two

19 duty officers on duty that night or two duty positions with respect to

20 function that are normally associated with the brigade. And both of these

21 functions are again discussed in the 1983 JNA command and staff

22 regulations. One, of course, is the duty operations officer, which you

23 are familiar with. Another one is the duty officer or in this particular

24 case the duty non-commissioned officer who was responsible for the issues

25 pertaining to the physical facilities of the garrison.

Page 4591

1 This is a particular one-page extract for the evening -- or for

2 14, 15 July, where the notations are -- the report of the situation in the

3 barracks. And as you can tell, most of these notations here reflect

4 the fact that the scope of duty of this particular individual and the

5 scope of duty of the garrison duty officer is very much limited to

6 barracks-related administrative. In this particular case, I'd just like

7 to highlight the duty officer of the garrison noting that, through the

8 evening of 14 and 15 July 1995, a bus with prisoners stayed overnight at

9 the compound of the barracks, in standard facility proper. And it also

10 notes that the body of troops at the barracks was not counted, due to the

11 activities in the field, again everyone's deployed to the field to deal

12 with issues related to the column as well as guarding prisoners of war,

13 and this non-commissioned officer makes the observation that practically

14 only the operations duty officer, the duty officer, and guards are located

15 at the barracks at this point in time.

16 Moving to page 7 of that English translation, the only other

17 notation in this for the 15th and 16th that I would like to highlight is

18 with respect to incoming reinforcements that begin arriving into the zone

19 of the Zvornik Brigade by the morning of the 15th. And the second

20 notation notes that a new shift from the Bratunac Brigade has arrived

21 which was sent to the field some time later at approximately 1000 hours,

22 that's noted. And it notes that at 1200 hours that elements of the

23 Podrinje special forces detachment, which is the Drina Wolves a unit

24 subordinate to the Zvornik Infantry Brigade are also starting to arrive

25 back at the barracks location.

Page 4592

1 Q. And do you know if Vinko Pandurevic was with them?

2 A. While not noted in these particular documents, the commander of

3 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, did come back with

4 these units and is known to have arrived back at the headquarters of the

5 Zvornik Infantry Brigade at approximately noon on 15 July 1995.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next document. I think we're going back to

7 the engineering order of the day book, this time dated 15 July?

8 A. Yes, sir, and it's Prosecution Exhibit 521.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. And this reflects the daily tasks of the engineering company. And

11 looking at items 4 and 5, it reflects the work of an ULT-220 and a BGH-700

12 at Orahovac. And it reflects the work of an ULT and an excavator at

13 Petkovci. Now, in context with the time we know from vehicle records that

14 they are still continuing the burial of bodies at Orahovac on the morning

15 and afternoon hours of 15 July 1995. And from our survivor accounts at

16 Petkovci, the last of the executions at the dam occur at approximately

17 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning as the sun is starting to come up. And the

18 burial activity there begins as the sun comes up. So I believe what

19 you're looking at in notations 4 through 7 are the notations by the

20 engineer company commander or the duty officer at the command at the time

21 with respect to the burial of bodies from the executions at Orahovac and

22 at the Petkovci or the dam.

23 Q. Do you have any vehicle logs reflecting any work at Petkovci?

24 A. No, sir. None of the vehicle logs from the Zvornik Infantry

25 Brigade indicate that their equipment was used at Petkovci dam during

Page 4593

1 those days.

2 Q. Number 1 says, "Pioneers to work in the area of Petkovci." What

3 are pioneers again?

4 A. As I've noted in my earlier testimony, pioneers is the phrase or

5 terminology referred to as combat engineers or is also known in another

6 phrase as sappers. These are engineers strictly related to combat

7 focuses, building small bunkers, laying mines, taking out mines, those

8 direct small-level engineering functions to support combat commanders.

9 Q. And also it says power saw operators to work in the area of

10 Petkovci. Besides the work that was going on at the dam regarding corpses

11 on the 15th, are you aware of any pioneer work or chain saw work in the

12 area of Petkovci village? Do you know what these might be referring to, 1

13 and 2?

14 A. Indicated in the general context of the situation and in the

15 brigade command's reports, the units that were considered most at risk for

16 the enemy column going through the rear area were the 7th Infantry

17 Battalion, the 4th Infantry Battalion and the 6th Infantry Battalion. The

18 6th Infantry battalion was the northern most of the three. And in this

19 respect what I believe you're seeing is in notations 1 and 2, activity

20 related to the very rapid construction of combat bunkers or fortifications

21 in a very quick manner to try and deal with the column as it comes through

22 the rear area of the 6th Battalion.

23 Q. So could these heavy excavators be used for this as well?

24 A. That was a possibility that was actively explored by myself and

25 the investigation team, and the information we have available to us is

Page 4594

1 that the battalion commanders and deputy command in question, when they

2 discussed this issue with the OTP, did not note that they had requested

3 this type of heavy equipment as part of their defensive operations. So

4 again, that's one of the things that I used to conclude that items 6 and 7

5 are dealing with respect to the criminal acts and not the military ones.

6 The second issue and where, perhaps, the map will make this more

7 clear is that this red line depicting in rough terms the route of the

8 column, where it would be penetrating the side of the 6th Battalion sector

9 in Petkovci, yet survivor accounts indicate that construction equipment

10 was used here at the dam at approximately -- starting at sun up on the

11 morning of the 15th. So with respect to the overall military context of

12 the situation, there wouldn't be any need to be conducting engineering

13 activities at the foot of the dam at Petkovci, given the fact that the

14 route of the column would not come anywhere near that location.

15 Q. The village of Petkovci and the actual location of the dam are as

16 depicted in this map. Do you know roughly how far Petkovci village and

17 the dam are from each other?

18 A. I'm not sure of the exact distance of the village per se, but I

19 believe that we've calculated the distance from the old school at Petkovci

20 which is the battalion headquarters of the 6th Battalion to the dam as

21 approximately -- sorry. From the old school to the new school is

22 approximately 800 metres and then further on to the dam is approximately 2

23 kilometres. I believe that's my recollection, sir.

24 Q. Okay. Let's go on to the next exhibit. It looks like another

25 vehicle log, 522.

Page 4595

1 A. This is another piece of equipment noted owned by Birac Holding,

2 as you can see on the English language translation, for an ULT-220 backhoe

3 excavator. It notes 50 -- or 60 litres of fuel on 15 July, and it notes

4 another 40 litres also on 15 July. And going to page 2 of the vehicle

5 log, it reflects on 15 July, five hours of digging trenches at Orahovac.

6 Q. Now, is that consistent with the engineering logbook that we saw

7 before?

8 A. Yes, sir, it is.

9 Q. And is the name of the operator on this log?

10 A. The name of the operator is on this log, however, that particular

11 individual is not listed on the log of the engineering company, to my

12 knowledge.

13 Q. So what do you think that means?

14 A. Just as the equipment may well have been requisitioned out of

15 Birac Holding, I suspect the operator came with it.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honours, just for clarification, the

17 description is backhoe excavator, as I think we've seen plenty of

18 testimony, and ULT-220 is, in fact, a loader. So that's a mistake.

19 Q. If we could go on to the next exhibit, 523?

20 A. This is a vehicle log for a TAM 75 truck registration number

21 M-5329. This particular vehicle is assigned to the 6th Infantry Battalion

22 at Petkovci. And the two individuals listed as drivers are listed as

23 members of the 6th Infantry Battalion.

24 On 15 July -- or starting on 14 July going through 15 July, three

25 notations of 15 litres of fuel each. And then on the 14th, a final

Page 4596

1 notation of 7 litres of fuel. And as I've discussed before, a TAM 75 is a

2 medium-sized cargo truck.

3 Going to page 2 of this particular document, looking at the

4 activity on 15 July 1995, it reflects a number of trips -- I'll have to

5 look at the original. I believe four trips. You'll see it listed here.

6 And you will see notations between Petkovci and Brana, which is, to my

7 understanding, the B/C/S word for dam. And it talks about other movement

8 activity as well.

9 Q. Okay. But to be -- again, to be clear, this is not engineering

10 equipment. This is --

11 A. No. These are subordinate to the 6th Infantry Battalion. They

12 are not engineering equipment.

13 Q. Let's go to the next exhibit.

14 A. This is Prosecution Exhibit 524, another TAM 80 truck.

15 Registration number M-5300. The two individuals, again listed as drivers

16 with the 6th Battalion. And on 15 July 1995, six journeys back and forth

17 between Petkovci, Brana, and Petkovci, a total of 48 kilometres driven.

18 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next exhibit.

19 A. Going back to the military context of the situation, this is the

20 15 July 1995 regular combat report to the command of the Drina Corps from

21 the command of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

22 Q. And it is Exhibit 526.

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And why have you chosen this?

25 A. It discusses this paragraph 1 the larger enemy attack which is now

Page 4597

1 occurring as of 0440 hours and it ended at approximately 0530 hours and

2 the enemy is continuing to fire artillery weapons. And again the units

3 that are being isolated for attack are the 4th, 6th and 7th Infantry

4 Battalions. In this particular respect, knowing from the intercepts of

5 Bosnian Muslim conversations, even those taken by the VRS that this was

6 designated to be the area where they believed that the column was going to

7 be coming out and attempting to break through the lines into BH territory,

8 and, in fact, this is what occurred. So in this respect, forces of the

9 24th Infantry Division of BH 2 Corps began launching attacks along the

10 front lines of the 4th, 6th, and 7th Battalions, in order to keep their

11 front line forces engaged so they could not be used for combat against the

12 column which was now approaching towards their rear.

13 Q. All right. Unless there's anything else on this document in the

14 military situation, we can go to the next document, which is 527, the ...

15 A. 527, this is the daily combat report of the Bratunac Light

16 Infantry Brigade for 15 July 1995, and we've discussed this document

17 before.

18 Q. So why do you bring it back?

19 A. I only bring it back to highlight the issue in paragraph 2, that

20 correlating to the duty officer workbook index and even the garrison log,

21 the notation that a group of soldiers, approximately 80, has been sent

22 from the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade zone to the Zvornik Infantry

23 Brigade zone. And we see those notations in the various books. And just

24 a piece that I use to confirm events as they're occurring in context.

25 Q. Does this issue of reinforcements coming from Bratunac, does that

Page 4598

1 become relevant in some analysis of an intercept on the 16th of July?

2 A. Yes, sir, it will.

3 Q. Okay. We'll hopefully get there soon. The next exhibit, 528, an

4 interim combat report from the Zvornik Brigade.

5 A. This is an interim combat report from the command of the Zvornik

6 Infantry Brigade to the command of the Drina Corps. It states in great

7 detail the situation in the zone of the Zvornik Brigade, both the military

8 situation and it also discusses the situation with respect to large

9 numbers of prisoners distributed throughout schools in the brigade's area.

10 Q. And I think this has been discussed, but can you just tell us what

11 your interpretation is of that first sentence, "An additional burden for

12 us is the large number of prisoners distributed throughout the schools in

13 the brigade area, as well as obligations of security and restoration of

14 the terrain."

15 A. Given the military situation and the context when this report is

16 drafted, in the late afternoon of 15 July 1995, this is the commander of

17 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Colonel Pandurevic, telling the Drina Corps

18 that the dual responsibilities of dealing with the issue of the column and

19 dealing with the issue of the prisoners, of guarding the prisoners, and

20 then burying the bodies afterwards is now to point where he cannot

21 resource both operations. He indicates that if no one takes

22 responsibility -- on this responsibility, "I will be forced to let them

23 go."

24 Now, as I've noted in my prior testimony, that is somewhat of an

25 empty threat, given that the locations of where these prisoners are, it

Page 4599

1 would be very unlikely that Colonel Pandurevic would just open the door

2 and let thousands of Bosnian Muslims who are now presently located well

3 behind his own front lines meander towards BiH territory at the time. But

4 it does, in effect, reflect his frustration with the circumstances that

5 his brigade is in, given these two tasks, and given the critical situation

6 developing with the column.

7 Q. By the evening when it appears this -- well, can you give us an

8 idea of when you think this report was sent or received.

9 A. Looking at the original B/C/S version, you have the communications

10 centre stamp indicating that it was sent at 1925 hours on 15 July 1995.

11 And perhaps this will be more clear on the English language one where we

12 were able to see on the original. I will also go back and note that again

13 in this particular instance, recognising the signature of select

14 individuals through my analysis of hundreds of their documents, this is a

15 signature that I believe represents or is the signature of Colonel Vinko

16 Pandurevic, the commander of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. It is rather

17 distinctive and it does lend itself to rather easy identification.

18 Q. Well, by this time around 7 -- 1900 hours, where, as far as you

19 know from your study, are prisoners still alive in the Zvornik Brigade

20 area?

21 A. At this particular time, the prisoners that were stored at the

22 school in Orahovac are dead --

23 Q. Mr. Butler, getting in practice, try to ask my questions as

24 specifically as you can. I just asked --

25 A. Where they're alive.

Page 4600

1 Q. -- where they're alive.

2 A. Very well. They are alive in the school in Kula, Pilica. Our

3 information is that those executions don't occur until the 16th of July in

4 the morning. They are alive in the dome of culture in Pilica. And there

5 still remains an ongoing question as to the number that may be alive in

6 the school at Rocevic. We have no documents or intercepts which would

7 give any evidence as to when the prisoners were executed in that school.

8 So from documents and evidence alone, I don't know. There have been

9 individuals who have raised the issue with the investigation that the

10 prisoners may have been executed in Rocevic on 15 July 1995. But I don't

11 have documents which might confirm that.

12 Q. Okay. Now, the next exhibit is a patient history, so if we could

13 not put that on the ELMO. Can you just tell us why you've chosen this

14 patient history of this particular individual. It appears to be a Muslim

15 individual. It's Exhibit 529. And this -- we have offered it under seal

16 just because it is a medical record.

17 A. If you refer, and again I won't put it on the ELMO, if you refer

18 to page 25 of the English language translation of the duty officer

19 workbook, you will note that individual's name referenced as having died

20 at the Zvornik hospital. The individual in question is an individual who

21 was known through the records under P529 to have been captured, wounded,

22 treated at the Milici medical centre, transferred to the Zvornik medical

23 centre, and subsequently died there. I only raise that issue as, again,

24 one of the pieces that I can use to indicate that notations in the book

25 are reflecting the actual context of events as we understand them.

Page 4601

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it appears just about time for the

3 break. And it looks very good for us being able to finish today or come

4 very close, just for your information.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. You are very optimistic.

6 Well, we'll break and we'll resume at 12.30

7 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Butler, let's go to the next exhibit for 16 July. I believe

12 it's Exhibit 250, an intercept at 1111 hours.

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And could you tell us who this is -- we now Colonel Ljubo Beara by

15 this time. Can you remind us who you think Cerovic is at this time?

16 A. Cerovic is Colonel Cerovic, who is normally the assistant

17 commander for morale, legal, and religious affairs of the Drina Corps and

18 whom on 16 July 1995, I believe, is also functioning as the duty officer

19 of the Drina Corps.

20 Q. And what do you think this conversation is about?

21 A. In the context the first thing he notes is an individual named

22 Trkulja is here with him now. I was looking for you, in respect, looking

23 for Beara. As I have indicated in my previous testimony, Colonel Trkulja

24 is an officer of the Main Staff. He is a member of the operations

25 department. And the context of the conversation is that they need to do

Page 4602

1 triage on those and then, of course, he's interrupted and it also notes

2 that he's got instructions from above.

3 Q. And what do you think this triage means?

4 A. With respect to triage having to be done on the prisoners, I

5 believe what we are looking at here is a euphemism for the prisoners need

6 to be executed.

7 Q. All right. Unless there's anything else on this, we can go to the

8 next exhibit.

9 A. This is Prosecution Exhibit 252.

10 Q. Okay. And what is this?

11 A. This is a 16 July series of intercepts at 1358 hours which take

12 place between initially the Zlatar duty officer and the Palma duty

13 officer. And the first part of the conversation it reflects that the

14 Palma duty officer is relaying a message that 500 leaders of D2 fuel are

15 needed for colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. It disconnects and then

16 he's reconnected. And the next correspondent who's talking is Basevic.

17 Q. Who do you think Basevic is?

18 A. In this particular reference, Major Basevic is an individual who's

19 identified as the chief of technical services of the Drina Corps.

20 Q. Okay. And what do you think they're talking about?

21 A. In this particular instance, they're now discussing that

22 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is here at Palma. He knows that. And that 500

23 litres of D2 are urgently being asked for him or else the work he's doing

24 will stop.

25 Q. Do you think what the work -- well, first of all who do you think

Page 4603

1 "he" is in that sentence?

2 A. I believe "he" in that sentence is Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.

3 Q. And what do you think the work is?

4 A. The work that's occurring at that point in time in the zone of the

5 Zvornik Brigade that Colonel Popovic would be involved in would be the

6 movement of prisoners from the school in Pilica by bus to the Branjevo

7 Military Farm where they're being executed.

8 Q. And do you have some other materials to help back that up that

9 we'll be getting to?

10 A. I believe that in concert with some of the other documents as well

11 as the testimony of Mr. Erdemovic during the Krstic which reflects buses

12 arriving filled with prisoners from the school in Pilica.

13 Q. Okay. And can you -- let's go into the second page of this.

14 There's more talk about 2 tons arriving. It says, "Well then, get in

15 touch with Rosevic." Do you know what means?

16 A. No, sir. I have not been able to identify an individual with that

17 name.

18 Q. We know there's a place where there's a school. Have you been

19 able to make any connection with that?

20 A. No, sir, I have not.

21 Q. Okay. And then it goes on: "Did you get Basevic?" And then P

22 says: "Yes, I did. And who is that? Is it the duty officer?" Then C

23 says: "The switchboard. And give me the operations duty officer. Is

24 Major Golic there by chance?" Then: "Yes. Let me talk to him." Then P

25 is: "Golic, pop just called me and told me to contact you. 500 litres of

Page 4604

1 D2 have to be sent to him immediately, otherwise his work will stop."

2 Again, Major Golic, who do you think that is?

3 A. Major Golic is an intelligence officer with the command of the

4 Drina Corps.

5 Q. Okay. Then it goes on and they talk about: "Yeah, 500 litres, or

6 else his work will stop. Go on right away. Bye." Then P says: "A bus

7 loaded with oil is to go to Pilica village. That's it." Then X says:

8 "500 litres."

9 Now, this comment: "A bus loaded with oil is to go to Pilica,"

10 what do you think what means?

11 A. I think in this respect what they're referring to is a -- not

12 necessarily a bus but something that's towing a container with 500 litres

13 of fuel with it.

14 Q. And Pilica village, can you just briefly describe the size of that

15 village, as you know it?

16 A. My understanding is that Pilica village is a very small village,

17 literally built on a crossroads in the northern end of the Zvornik

18 municipality. It's not a very populated village at all.

19 Q. So it goes on: "No, it should go its fuel tank from the vehicle

20 battalion." And X says: "So it's separate?" P says: "Yes, yes, it

21 should be separate." And then says: "Struck through: Just need." Then

22 P says: "There is, but Colonel Krsmanovic over at your place has to call

23 here to the vehicle battalion."

24 Now, can you remind us who P should be in this conversation.

25 A. P should be the Palma duty officer in this conversation.

Page 4605

1 Q. Okay. And again, Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic, what do you think

2 this comment about him means.

3 A. In context, Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic, as we've discussed, is

4 the chief of transportation [Realtime transcript read in error

5 "communication"] services for the Drina Corps. Because of the near or

6 almost co-location of one of the logistics bases of the Drina Corps at

7 Standard which has some assets there, Colonel Krsmanovic as the corps

8 transportation officer has to call down and authorise the use of one of

9 those vehicles to bring 500 litres of fuel up to Pilica.

10 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry, Mr. McCloskey, can I make a clarification.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please.

12 JUDGE ARGIBAY: The transcript said about Colonel Krsmanovic, that

13 he was the chief of communication. As I understood Mr. Butler, he said

14 the chief of transportation.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: We can correct that in the transcript, please.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

18 Q. All right. And just, can you remind us how important fuel was for

19 the VRS at this juncture in the war.

20 A. As perhaps best evidenced by the vehicle logs that we've seen in

21 the last several exhibits, fuel was an extremely critical resource, and it

22 was something that obviously due to a scarcity had a great deal of value

23 on the black market. Consequently there was a significant effort by all

24 military parties to make sure that the fuel was all properly accounted for

25 and was used in the proper manner. Again, that's reflected by the -- from

Page 4606

1 the very beginning that each vehicle has to account for how much fuel is

2 in it on any given day, when it receives it, that orders have to be

3 written to that effect. So it was obviously scarce to the army. And as a

4 result of being somewhat scarce to the community in general, it was

5 something that had a high degree of value associated with it. So theft

6 and pilferage would not be uncommon. So that's why in this context the

7 military takes the steps that it does to ensure that the fuel they do have

8 is regulated to the best of its ability.

9 Q. All right. Let's go to the next exhibit then; it's 530. Tell us

10 what it is, where the OTP got it, and then explain it.

11 A. This document was obtained by OTP during their search of the

12 Zvornik Infantry Brigade or the headquarters of the former Infantry

13 Brigade, Zvornik Infantry Brigade, in the beginning of 1998. This is the

14 receipt issued by the military post 7469, which is the Zvornik Infantry

15 Brigade, to Lieutenant Colonel Popovic for 500 litres of D2 diesel fuel on

16 16 July 1995.

17 And it also notes that out of the 500 litres, 140 were returned.

18 It's issued according to the order of Captain Sreten Milosevic, who is the

19 assistant commander for rear services for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

20 Q. And what's the significance of this document for your analysis?

21 A. This is the original, just for the ELMO. There are several levels

22 of significance for me on this one. The first one, of course, is the one

23 directly related to the intercept process. This document as a military

24 document in the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade is not a document that

25 was public in any manner, and therefore, it's an excellent document which

Page 4607

1 I use to corroborate the reliability with respect to parts of the

2 intercept process where they're discussing the content of the

3 conversation.

4 Clearly when you're looking for something such as a deliberate

5 deception, and you always have to be aware of that, the fact that there's

6 no conceivable way by which the BiH 2 Corps intercept operators would have

7 had access to these documents inside the building of their opposition,

8 their wartime opposition, and then to be able after the fact be able to

9 lash-up the intercept and the documents corroborates on one hand the

10 authenticity of the material, and it also gives you an indication as to

11 how reliable the pick-up was of the information in question.

12 On a different level, this document also helps to confirm the

13 analysis that I've offered previously with respect to the limits of the

14 security officer with respect to his powers to obtain material and

15 resources outside of his normal purview. In this particular instance,

16 looking at the context of the intercept, Colonel Popovic is directing the

17 Palma duty officer to call the -- to call the Zlatar duty officer to the

18 headquarters of the Drina Corps in order to get approval for the dispersal

19 of 500 litres of fuel. Obviously he was aware that to try and make an

20 order of that on his own was not something he was authorised to do and

21 that he would need the approval of the rear services department of the

22 Drina Corps in order to effect that.

23 So you see through the intercept and the document the

24 manifestation of a proper command and staff process in that respect.

25 Q. In fact, does the brigade rear services people get involved in

Page 4608

1 this authorisation process as well?

2 A. Yes, sir. And once, in fact, the approval is given - and I don't

3 have an intercept which, in fact, indicates that it was given in that

4 context - but certainly some form of approval was given to the assistant

5 commander for rear services of the Zvornik Brigade which would allow for

6 the dispersal of fuel.

7 Q. Exhibit 530 says in the English version: "Fuel is issued

8 according to the order of Captain S. Milosevic," and then remark, "Out of

9 500 litres of D2, 140 litres were returned."

10 So, again S. Milosevic --

11 A. Is Captain Sreten Milosevic, the assistant commander for rear

12 services of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

13 Q. And just to clarify, down at the bottom there is a special service

14 organ and it looks like M. Krstic. Do you know who that is?

15 A. No -- I do know who it is. It is not General Krstic. In fact, it

16 is an individual, I believe his name is Milorad Krstic who is a clerk in

17 the special services and technical services organ who does accounting

18 issues.

19 Q. Is there anything else you want to say about this document?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 257, an intercept 16 July, 2116 hours,

22 involving Popovic and others. Now, this particular intercept -- has part

23 of your analysis of this intercept changed from your analysis of it during

24 the Krstic case?

25 A. Yes, sir, it has.

Page 4609

1 Q. Well, let's go through it now and get your analysis as it

2 currently is, and then I'll ask you some questions about how your analysis

3 has changed and why. So let's begin with P, and who is that supposed --

4 who do you believe that to be, when it says P?

5 A. As indicated in the first line, you have a voice compromise, and

6 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is identifying himself.

7 Q. Okay. And then the next one, Rasic here, can I help you. Any

8 idea who Rasic is?

9 A. I understand that Colonel Obrenovic has identified an individual

10 named Rasic as a security individual associated with the Drina Corps. And

11 based on the material that I have, I'm not able to confirm that identity.

12 So I'm just going to have to remain that I'm not sure who that person is.

13 Q. Okay. And Popovic says: "I was just up there." What do you

14 think he's referring to?

15 A. In this particular context, particularly coupled with his comment

16 in the next one "With the boss personally," I believe that he was up at

17 the IKM of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade with Colonel Pandurevic.

18 Q. And is there new information you've received that assists that

19 analysis?

20 A. In this overall context Colonel Obrenovic had indicated that the

21 terminology "up" also refers to, with respect, from a lower terrain

22 feature to a higher terrain feature. And that is a logical conclusion

23 that could be drawn. And again as I try to be as conservative with these

24 intercepts as possible, I believe that interpretation is a fair one, and I

25 would adopt that.

Page 4610

1 Q. Was there some sort of reference in the workbook that we've spoken

2 to and we will get to later relating to Popovic?

3 A. Yes, sir, there is.

4 Q. Can you just briefly, since we're at this conversation, relate to

5 us what you recall about the workbook, and then we'll go on on the

6 intercept.

7 A. Part of the genesis of this intercept will be that as the

8 historical context indicates, the pressure on the Zvornik Brigade by the

9 column during the morning and early afternoon hours of 16 July 1995 become

10 so great that Colonel Pandurevic, on his own authority, essentially

11 declares a battlefield truce and opens a hole for the column to pass

12 unmolested into BiH territory. This directive on his part was not

13 authorised by either the Drina Corps or the Main Staff or the president of

14 the Republic. And as word that this event has occurred starts travelling

15 through the military and civilian chains of information, you see a series

16 of attempts by commanders at the Drina Corps and in a series of

17 intercepts, that I don't believe I have in toto here, by the Main Staff to

18 contact Colonel Pandurevic and to get an explanation from Colonel

19 Pandurevic exactly what he's doing and what's going on. This

20 conversation, in part, is based at the back end of that whole series of

21 events, where Colonel Popovic is discussing that issue as well as other

22 issues related to executions at Branjevo Farm, passing that information

23 back to the Zlatar duty officer, and again noting in context he had

24 originally asked to be connected with General Krstic.

25 Q. Do you recall the notation in the workbook involving Popovic in

Page 4611

1 this issue?

2 A. Yes, sir, I do.

3 Q. Again, can you just -- before we get to it, just tell us what that

4 is. You don't need to go back to it. Just generally. We'll get to the

5 specifics of it. Just to keep the context of this conversation.

6 A. It specifically notes in one of the items, it says: "Message from

7 Zlatar that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic must go to Vinko Pandurevic in the

8 field at 1640 hours."

9 Q. Okay. So getting back to the conversation: "I was with the boss

10 personally." Who do you think that is again?

11 A. I believe that is Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.

12 Q. And R says: "Yes." Popovic says: "Here where I am. You know

13 where I am." Where do you think Popovic is when he's saying this?

14 A. In respect to the fact that they know that their communications

15 are liable to intercept, he does not want to say exactly where he is, so

16 he is trying to talk around the subject. He is at the Palma headquarters

17 of the Zvornik Brigade right now.

18 Q. How do you know that?

19 A. We know that Colonel Popovic is spending the day or has spent most

20 of the day of 16 July 1995 in the zone of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade,

21 and given the fact that he's talking on his communication node and given

22 the fact that call is originating from Palma leads me to make the

23 conclusion that he's at the headquarters of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

24 Q. Then R says: "I know." Popovic says: "Well, you got his interim

25 report." What do you think Popovic is referring to with that, "got his

Page 4612

1 interim report"?

2 A. In this respect, they're referring to an interim report published

3 by the command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade on 16 July 1995, and we

4 will look at that document next. That is Prosecution Exhibit 531.

5 Q. Okay. And then R says: "All of it." And Popovic says: "It's

6 all just like he wrote ... I was there on the spot and was convinced he

7 had received some numbers."

8 What do you think he means by that section of the statement?

9 A. In this respect, as indicated in a series of exhibits that will be

10 discussed, based on the growing size and threat of the column, a large

11 number of units are notified to send reinforcements into the zone of the

12 Zvornik Infantry Brigade. One of the issues that occurs is that these

13 reinforcements do not arrive in time, at least as far as Colonel

14 Pandurevic is concerned, and that as a result of these reinforcements not

15 arriving, he had to take the action to allow the column to pass. From the

16 context of the Drina Corps and the other command, they knew that these

17 reinforcements had been established, setting the context that even though

18 Colonel Pandurevic had received adequate reinforcement, he still had let

19 the column go. As we see in the historical context, that very issue will

20 become a bone of contention between the Zvornik Infantry Brigade and the

21 Drina Corps and the Main Staff.

22 Q. Okay. So then it says: "Well, that's not even important ...

23 I'll come there tomorrow, so tell the General I've ... I've finished the

24 job."

25 What do you think he means when he says: "I'll come there

Page 4613

1 tomorrow"?

2 A. I believe he's informing them that he'll return to the

3 headquarters of the Drina Corps on 17 July 1995.

4 Q. And then what about -- what does this mean in your opinion: "So

5 tell the General ... I've finished the job."

6 What General? Do you have any idea who he's referring to?

7 A. Given the context of two officers of the Drina Corps discussing an

8 issue, my conclusion is that the General in question is, in fact, General

9 Krstic, the Drina Corps commander.

10 Q. And I've finished the job, what do you think he means by that?

11 A. I believe in that respect, the job he's discussing as being

12 finished is the execution of Bosnian Muslims at the Branjevo Military Farm

13 and at the Pilica dome.

14 Q. Why couldn't that be the job he was assigned to go see what

15 Pandurevic was up to?

16 A. Looking at that in context with, first of all, why he was in the

17 zone of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade in the first place, and another

18 sentence with respect to: Have you finished -- and I finished everything,

19 I believe that in this context what we're discussing is his job which was

20 to oversee the execution of the prisoners.

21 Q. So on 16 July at 2116 hours, what was the situation with the

22 prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade zone?

23 A. With the exception of our handful of survivors, all of the

24 prisoners at all of the holding sites had already been executed.

25 Q. Okay. Then it says: "Good." And Popovic says: "I'll come there

Page 4614

1 tomorrow when I'm sure that that's all been taken care of, you know."

2 What do you think he means by that?

3 A. As other documents will lay out, future exhibits, we know that

4 while the executions occurred on 16 July 1995, the actual process of

5 burying the bodies did not begin until the morning of the 17th. I believe

6 that is the thing that he wants to ensure is taken care of before he

7 returns.

8 Q. Okay. And R says: "Good." P says: "After I bring a transport

9 from there."

10 Do you know what that means?

11 A. No, sir, I don't know what that means in context.

12 Q. Then R says: "Right."

13 Then Popovic says: "Well, in general there weren't any major

14 problems, but up there there were horrible problems and that thing the

15 commander sent, it was just the right thing."

16 Now, this somewhat difficult sentence, can you make any sentence

17 out of this?

18 A. Breaking it down, the first sentence: "Well, in general there

19 weren't any major problems." Given the context of all the things that

20 have already been discussed and the issues with the column, I believe that

21 in this respect he's talking about the mass executions, because there were

22 two problem issues occurring in the Zvornik Brigade sector, one was of the

23 issue of the column, one was the issue of mass executions. Certainly the

24 historical context sets out very clearly that there were tremendous

25 problems with the column. So in context, this is Colonel Popovic

Page 4615

1 informing Rasic that there weren't any major problems with the execution.

2 Q. Then we get to this sentence: "But up there."

3 What do you think he means by "up there"? That's another

4 reference to up there.

5 A. In this context, and this is where my opinion will be changing

6 from how I previously viewed this, I will subscribe to Colonel Obrenovic's

7 interpretation of up there as being up at the -- in the area of the

8 battlefield, which would be towards IKM and towards the Baljkovica area

9 where the brunt of the most significant fighting is taking place.

10 Q. So why are you changing your mind?

11 A. Again, in this context, and I've always tried to note as a

12 component of my total analysis, if a document or an intercept was open to

13 multiple interpretations, particularly in the issue between a criminal

14 interpretation and a strictly military one, that as a matter of practice

15 when it was, I would always default back to that military interpretation.

16 That's as I professionally view it, a component of attempting to keep my

17 analysis of the material as conservative as possible.

18 Q. Okay. And it goes on to say, "As we've said, but up there. There

19 were horrible problems."

20 And what do you think he's referring to when he says: "There were

21 horrible problems"?

22 A. In this respect he's discussing the issue of the pitched battle

23 between the column and the forces of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

24 Q. And the next part: The thing the commander sent, it was just the

25 right thing. What do you think that means?

Page 4616

1 A. That is interesting phrase, given the historical context of what

2 we know had occurred. As we'll discuss in the 16 July interim combat

3 report from the Zvornik Brigade, Colonel Pandurevic is making it very

4 clear that because the reinforcements did not arrive in time, that is why

5 he was forced to open up the hole and let the column go through. And in

6 this context, Colonel Popovic is saying that the thing that the commander

7 sent is just the right thing. So I'm not sure whether they're all talking

8 about the same thing in this respect, because at least from Colonel

9 Obrenovic's -- I'm sorry, Colonel Pandurevic's point of view, it arrived

10 too late. It wasn't the right thing.

11 Q. Well, then, let me take you briefly back, and if you could provide

12 us a -- just a very brief summary of what will be part of the record of

13 this case and was already part of the Krstic case, that is some of the

14 high points of Mr. Erdemovic and I want to keep very particular issues on

15 this.

16 What in particular did Mr. Obrenovic say was the problem that his

17 unit was dealing with in the murder of some 1.000 Muslim prisoners on the

18 16th of July at the Branjevo Farm?

19 A. The specific problem that his unit or the unit that he was a

20 member of at that time, which consisted of six people, I believe, was that

21 first of all there were many people coming to be executed. Secondly,

22 there were so few of them. And third, I believe Mr. Erdemovic details

23 that very early in the morning members of that six-person squad started

24 drinking, and that very quickly as a component of that, while some members

25 of the squad were very enthusiastic about conducting the executions, other

Page 4617

1 members of that squad were not at all.

2 Q. So from what Mr. Erdemovic said, did his unit get any assistance

3 with their problem at some point that day at Branjevo Farm?

4 A. In his testimony, Mr. Erdemovic notes that in the early afternoon

5 hours of 16 July 1995, a group of soldiers from Bratunac arrives and

6 assists in the execution process.

7 Q. Going back, did you have a chance to look over your Krstic

8 testimony on the subject?

9 A. Yes, sir, I did.

10 Q. And in your Krstic testimony, did you make a mistake in relating

11 Mr. Erdemovic's information?

12 A. I did and I recognised that when I reviewed my transcript

13 testimony approximately a week ago on that. And I had misspoke, and one

14 of the things I asked for was, as soon as I recognised what I had said,

15 that the tape be checked, because attributed to me is the observation that

16 Erdemovic had said, "Men from the Bratunac Brigade." And I would like to

17 go on record as saying that from the very beginning of my association with

18 this case, I have always known that Erdemovic has always said that it was

19 men or soldiers from Bratunac. He has never indicated that they were men

20 from the Bratunac Brigade, and that is a fact that I know. And that is

21 why I asked for a clarification as to whether that was actually something

22 I had said. If I did say it, I did misspeak.

23 Q. Okay. Well, then -- with that factual backdrop in mind, let me go

24 back. "But up there, there were horrible problems, and the thing the

25 commander sent, it was just the right thing." Did you have what

Page 4618

1 Mr. Erdemovic said in mind when you made your analysis on this?

2 A. Yes, sir, I did.

3 Q. Let's keep going. R says: "Good.

4 " P says: "Just the thing. Horrible. It was horrible."

5 And then Rasic says: "Listen, Vujadin."

6 Does that clear up any problems with who Lieutenant Colonel

7 Popovic might have been?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And Popovic says: "What."

10 R says: "Tell me. Did anything arrive there now from Vidoje

11 Blagojevic."

12 So what -- Vidoje Blagojevic, who is that in this context in your

13 view?

14 A. In this context, that is the commander of the Bratunac -- of the

15 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.

16 Q. And what do you think Rasic is asking when he's asking: "Tell me,

17 did anything arrive there now from Vidoje Blagojevic"?

18 A. In the context of the other information which we'll get to, and it

19 is noted various units were directed to send additional troops to the zone

20 of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. And in this respect, Rasic is asking

21 whether or not those troops that had been sent or that were supposed to

22 have been sent from Bratunac, whether they have arrived.

23 Q. And Popovic -- well, he clears up that issue and says: "Yes, you

24 mean manpower?"

25 Rasic says: "Yes, yes. Did anything arrive? Something was

Page 4619

1 supposed to arrive."

2 Then Popovic says in another interesting comment: "Yes, it

3 arrived ... It's up there."

4 What do you think in the context of this whole thing he's

5 referring to now?

6 A. In this respect, he's referring to his awareness that a group of

7 soldiers from Bratunac had finally arrived and being sent up there, they

8 were sent in the direction of the forward command post or the Baljkovica

9 area of the Zvornik Brigade.

10 Q. Okay. Then it goes on: "It's up there, but it didn't arrive on

11 time and it wasn't brought in on time."

12 What do you think that means?

13 A. In effect he's reiterating that the reinforcements arrived late.

14 Q. And he says: "And the others who arrived." Do you know these

15 others are that he may be referring to?

16 A. There are a number of possibilities. As we'll see in a later

17 intercept, there were reinforcements arriving from Dobos, which is the

18 telephonic code name for the headquarters at Vlasenica. There were

19 supposed to be some reinforcements from the Milici brigade, and there were

20 supposed to be reinforcements arriving from a unit of the 16th Krajina

21 Brigade.

22 Q. How about Erdemovic's guys from Bratunac? Would you include them

23 as a possibility in here?

24 A. That is a possibility.

25 Q. Then it goes on: "But they were late, so they weren't brought in

Page 4620

1 on time. And that's why the commander who was here had problems."

2 Now, what do you think he means by, "And that's why the commander

3 who was here had problems"?

4 A. In the broader interpretation, the commander here would be Colonel

5 Pandurevic. And they're talking about, in the larger context, the issue

6 of the fact that since the reinforcements did not arrive on time, the

7 commander, Colonel Pandurevic, had the problems and was forced to open up

8 a hole for the column.

9 Q. So in that sense, if the people who arrived late were the reason

10 that Pandurevic had problems, would that be consistent with Erdemovic's

11 guys from Bratunac?

12 A. That would generally not be consistent.

13 Q. All right. Then we get to the next question, and it says: "When

14 exactly did Blagojevic's men arrive?" He says: "[Expletive] I don't know

15 exactly. Now I can't." And they go back and forth a bit and Rasic asks,

16 sounds like the duty officer: "When did Blagojevic's men arrive?" The

17 duty officer says: "From Badem" -- and they end it with: "I'll call you

18 back."

19 Now, do you have an intercept that you now incorporate into your

20 analysis of this last part that you were not aware of at the Krstic trial?

21 A. Yes, sir, I do.

22 Q. But before we get to it, can you tell me, initially what was your

23 view on this issue related to the arrival of Blagojevic's men?

24 A. That view initially migrated over several years with respect to my

25 analysis of that situation. Based on Mr. Erdemovic's statements and

Page 4621

1 testimony at his own trial, as well as the documents that we received from

2 the Bratunac Brigade, my initial conclusion was that these people were

3 probably from the Bratunac Brigade.

4 As a following series of that investigation continued, the

5 investigation was able to identify an individual who was known to be a

6 member of the Panteri unit from the East Bosnia Corps and who was in

7 Bratunac on 13 July 1995, and I believe that has been brought to this

8 Court's attention. When that part of the information became available and

9 I was able to analyse it and synthesise it, in the context of the Krstic

10 trial, I testified to that effect during the rebuttal case of the

11 Prosecution, where I noted that my position on that had changed based on

12 new information.

13 Q. Okay. And is there even some more information that has assisted

14 that analysis?

15 A. Certainly with respect to the physical presence of the individual

16 from the Panteri unit, as part of the OTP's ongoing investigation, they

17 were able to discover references to him being in Zvornik at the medical

18 centre on that day, having treatment for an injury. So I believe that as

19 the investigation has continued, we've been able to substantially

20 corroborate the fact that that individual, and perhaps members of that

21 unit, were in the Zvornik area and will have been at Branjevo Military

22 Farm on 16 July 1995.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just for the record, that is protected witness

24 P188.

25 Q. All right. Let's go to the next intercept on the same issue,

Page 4622

1 Exhibit 258?

2 A. This is a synopsis of an intercepted conversation with respect to

3 Colonel Cerovic and the duty officer. As I had indicated, Colonel Cerovic

4 on 16 July 1995 is the duty officer at the headquarters of the Drina

5 Corps. And it reflects in a general roll-up when reinforcements arrived

6 in the zone of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. And it notes that a number

7 had arrived from Badem, and I believe it's actually readable more on the

8 handwritten version of this, but it's at 2100 hours or roughly 2130 hours,

9 men from -- or 30 men from Dobos, which is Vlasenica, at 1715 hours and 20

10 men from Banja Luka -- I'm sorry -- it's 30 men from Badem, 20 men from

11 Dobos at 1715, and 100 men from Banja Luka. And that corresponds to our

12 knowledge of the size and the locations of where reinforcements from those

13 units were arriving in the zone of the Zvornik Brigade on 16 July 1995.

14 Q. So going back to Mr. Erdemovic's men from Bratunac, what time did

15 they arrive to the Branjevo Farm?

16 A. Based on the testimony of the Krstic case of Mr. Obrenovic, they

17 had arrived approximately midday, or noon.

18 Q. Now, going back to Witness P188 who testified that he was in

19 Bratunac on the morning of the 16th with others from his unit in a -- and

20 were transported in, I think, a small TAM 110 vehicle. Now, if he and

21 others ended up at the Branjevo Farm at 1.00 p.m., as Erdemovic says, who

22 were the -- the sort of military options of where and who he would have

23 received -- or his unit would have received instructions from?

24 A. Well, perhaps the most instructive model to use in this instance

25 is the chain of events which Drazen Erdemovic says occurred by which his

Page 4623

1 unit was instructed to begin that task or go to those various locations.

2 In his testimony, and I don't want to paraphrase it, he does indicate that

3 it was not a direct route, and that they were instructed by one of their

4 superior officers to report to the headquarters of the Zvornik Infantry

5 Brigade, Standard, and that there they would be met by another officer who

6 would then take them further down the line. And as Erdemovic notes, they

7 did go to the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade, they were met by

8 another officer, and they were taken to the location which we know is the

9 Branjevo Military Farm where they were instructed what their mission was

10 and what they were expected to do.

11 Logically setting that to the next group of individuals, somebody

12 would have had to have contact these individuals in the Bratunac area and

13 instructed them to report to the Zvornik Infantry Brigade headquarters at

14 Standard.

15 Q. Okay. Who were the ranking officers that you know of were in

16 Bratunac on the morning of the 16th of July?

17 A. There were a number of ranking officers. It is my understanding

18 that Colonel Radoslav Jankovic of the Main Staff was still in Bratunac on

19 16 July 1995.

20 Q. Where was he working out of?

21 A. He would have working out of the headquarters of the Bratunac

22 Brigade.

23 Q. Who else?

24 A. Colonel Blagojevic would have, of course, been there. Captain

25 First Class Momir Nikolic, the security officer. Lieutenant Micic would

Page 4624

1 have been there as an operations officer. Major Trisic, the assistant

2 commander for rear services, would have been there. So generally

3 speaking, the whole suite of officers from the Bratunac Brigade who would

4 normally be expected to be there would be there, the exception, of course,

5 being the chief of staff who was deployed out of area.

6 Q. All right. And does this reflect, as far as you know, the

7 investigation's knowledge on that particular subject?

8 A. I believe that is where we are to date with that particular

9 subject, yes, sir.

10 Q. Okay. Let's go on to the next exhibits.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We may not make it, Your Honour, you may have been

12 right. But we're going to be very close.

13 Q. And I believe it's 531, and this is 16 July interim combat report

14 that you have earlier made reference to regarding that intercept that

15 makes reference to a report. Is that right, Mr. Butler?

16 A. Yes, sir. And again just another example of how a piece of

17 information that would not logically be in the possession of the ABiH

18 references to it turn up in the intercepts.

19 Q. I don't think we need to go into the detailed information in this

20 report, but is this roughly consistent with some of the references that

21 Popovic was making about numbers in that previous intercept?

22 A. Yes, sir. And in that respect, paragraph 3 is where Colonel

23 Pandurevic reflects the fact that under the circumstances, I have decided

24 in view of the situation to open a corridor.

25 Q. So that's what you refer to when you say he made that decision

Page 4625

1 without authorisation?

2 A. That is correct, sir.

3 Q. Why do you think he made such a drastic -- I won't say -- keep the

4 adjectives out. Why did he make such a decision without authorisation?

5 A. I think he makes that quite clear in paragraph 3, where he notes

6 the inability of his own forces to hold out because portions of them have

7 been surrounded. That the brigade has been abandoned, his perspective, to

8 deal with the Srebrenica Turks as best they can, coupled with the absolute

9 determination of the column to save their own -- to at least save some of

10 their own lives, regardless of losses.

11 So I think it's a reflection with respect to Colonel Pandurevic,

12 it's a decision that as far as he was concerned is inevitable under the

13 circumstances.

14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next exhibit, it's 532. It's the

15 regular combat report that would have come before the interim. Do we need

16 to -- is there something in there that you want to point out?

17 A. No, sir. Just to continue the general historical context is why I

18 offered this up.

19 Q. All right. So nothing in particular?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Okay. What's the next exhibit along those lines?

22 A. This is the --

23 Q. This is 533, I believe.

24 A. Yes, sir. This is the daily combat of the Drina Corps for that

25 same day, reflecting the general situation in the zone, and specific to

Page 4626

1 the Zvornik Brigade. It discusses the situation in the Zvornik Brigade

2 with detached units blocking these areas. Now, in this respect, given the

3 reporting situation when this report is being drafted at 1937 hours or

4 being sent by 1937 hours, there's still not a full awareness on the point

5 of the Drina Corps just exactly what Colonel Pandurevic has done.

6 Q. All right. Now, let's go back -- I think we're now going back to

7 the engineering order book for 16 July, which is Exhibit 535?

8 A. On 16 July, just the notations on items 2 and 3 that work is still

9 continuing, at least in the early morning as far as their understanding

10 is, of engineering work at Orahovac.

11 Q. All right. And let's go to -- do you have some vehicle logs on

12 that point, Exhibit 536?

13 A. And on this particular day, this is the Torpedo Excavator from

14 Birac Holding, 60 litres of fuel. However, on this day, it reflects that

15 the activity by this particular piece of equipment has now shifted from

16 Orahovac, and they are now digging trenches at Kozluk, which is the burial

17 location for those executed from the school at Rocevic.

18 Q. All right. Let's go to the next exhibit, 537, a 17 July

19 engineering order book.

20 A. In this particular context, bullets points 2 and 3 note the work

21 of BGH-700 at Branjevo and the work of ULT-220 at Branjevo. And it notes

22 on task 5 that a BGH-700 is to be transported to Branjevo by a flatbed

23 truck.

24 So in this instance while they have the tasks actually out of

25 proper order, it notes the fact that the BGH-700 is going be brought to

Page 4627

1 Branjevo and it will be employed at Branjevo.

2 Q. What's happening Branjevo then?

3 A. 17 July 1995, at Branjevo military farm, engineer equipment of the

4 Zvornik Brigade is engaged in burying the bodies from the executions.

5 Q. Can you briefly explain your comment"at Branjevo military farm"?

6 How do you know that's true?

7 A. We have documents in this part of the investigation, area known as

8 Branjevo farm is in fact a military farm that is part of the Zvornik

9 Infantry Brigade and it's under the custody of the 1st Infantry Battalion.

10 There are a series of documents which are in my narrative which tie that

11 all in.

12 Q. All right. Let's then go to the Exhibit 260, it's an intercept

13 and what date should this be?

14 A. This intercept is 17 July 1995 at 0615 in the morning.

15 Q. And briefly -- well, who do you think Captain Trbic is?

16 A. Captain Trbic is a security officer for the Zvornik Infantry

17 Brigade. I also believe that Captain Trbic was performing the duty

18 officer function of the Zvornik Brigade from the morning of 16 July trough

19 the morning of 17 July 1995.

20 Q. Going down this intercept where General Krstic is alleged to have

21 said: Okay. Have you killed the Turks up there?

22 And Trbic says: Well, I guess you got the report. What more can

23 I tell you?

24 What do you think Krstic is talking about there?

25 A. In this respect, I believe that General Krstic is discussing the

Page 4628

1 issues with the column and that the report in question is either the

2 regular or the interim combat report by the Zvornik Brigade which

3 discusses that situation.

4 Q. All right. And after that, General Krstic speaks with Vinko

5 Pandurevic later on. Is that right?

6 A. That is correct, sir. And on page 2 of the English language --

7 Q. They're just discussing the military situation at the time?

8 A. That is correct, sir.

9 Q. All right. What's the next exhibit?

10 A. This is Prosecution Exhibit 358 --

11 Q. Sorry, apparently that is a mistake. It is actually 538. We need

12 to -- want to make that change.

13 A. And it's for a Mercedes 2626 vehicle, registration number M-5195.

14 Its task on 17 July was noted from Base, Standard, Branjevo, and then

15 return to Base, and its task consisted of the transport of the 700 loader.

16 Q. Do you know if Milan Milovanovic, the person listed as the

17 driver/user, is part of the Zvornik Brigade?

18 A. I don't remember offhand at this time. That is something that we

19 can, of course, check.

20 Q. Okay. Anything else from this document?

21 A. Other than it's consistent with the engineer logbook showing what

22 the tasks were for the day.

23 Q. Do you have the engineering roster in front of you?

24 A. It would actually be easier if I looked in this binder. Okay.

25 Here's my copy, so I can ...

Page 4629

1 Q. That's all right, Mr. Butler, we'll see if we can --

2 A. Here it is. Down at the bottom, number 6, Milan Milovanovic

3 listed as a driver.

4 Q. From the engineering company?

5 A. For July of 1995, yes, sir.

6 Q. Okay. And what's our next exhibit?

7 A. This is -- just quickly back to Exhibit 518, reflecting that on 17

8 July, 100 litres of D2 went into the BGH-700.

9 Q. All right. And then the next document.

10 A. Is Exhibit 522, construction machine owned by Birac Holding,

11 reflecting the activity of 17 July, digging trenches in Branjevo and 8.5

12 hours driven.

13 Q. All right. And again, that's the exhibit where there's a mistake,

14 an old 220 is a loader, not a backhoe excavator.

15 All right. And if we could go to --

16 A. Exhibit 237.

17 Q. Yes. Let's go to 237. Tell us about that.

18 A. This is a conversation between two correspondents with respect to

19 the identification of an individual who was captured from the column, who

20 is reportedly Naser Oric's chief signalman. And in the context for me why

21 this intercept is of value is in respect that we do know of this

22 individual and that he did, in fact, survive the war. And it also

23 identifies that on 17 July 1995, that the two correspondents here that --

24 know that Colonel Stankovic was in Zvornik today. Colonel Stankovic is an

25 officer from the intelligence directorate of the Main Staff.

Page 4630

1 Q. All right. I just want to make sure we have that exhibit number

2 correct. This intercept should be P273.

3 And what's the next exhibit?

4 A. It will be Prosecution Exhibit 539, which the Trial Chamber has

5 seen before.

6 Q. And I believe you discussed those two -- paragraphs 1 and 2 at

7 that time.

8 A. So in respect, just the -- again, a part of the confirmation piece

9 that under the circumstances the ABiH intercept people would not have

10 known about the presence of Milorad Stankovic in the zone at that time, to

11 be corroborated by another document.

12 Q. Okay. Next exhibit, I believe, is 540.

13 A. This is the 18 July 1995 interim combat report from the command of

14 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. Again, as I've discussed, this is a

15 document where after this commission has come through, Colonel Pandurevic

16 in a rather lengthy series of paragraphs outlines the entire historical

17 context of not only this battle, but previous battles that have been

18 engaged in by elements of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, making the point

19 to the Drina Corps command that over the past six months, Colonel

20 Pandurevic feels that his brigade has borne an inordinate share or brunt

21 of the war.

22 Of note, at least with respect to the criminal aspects, is his

23 discussion of the situation of the territory in paragraph 4, which is page

24 2 of the English language translation, where he notes the situation, not

25 only where they swamped, but that: It is inconceivable to me, personally

Page 4631

1 Colonel Pandurevic, that someone brought in 3.000 Turks of military age

2 and placed them in schools in the municipality, in addition to the 7.000

3 or so who fled in the forest.

4 You notice that this created an extremely complex situation and

5 the possibility of total occupation of Zvornik, in conjunction with the

6 forces at the front.

7 Q. Okay. Do you have anything else you want to say on that

8 particular document?

9 A. Looking at the B/C/S version of that, again the signature which I

10 attribute to Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, indicating his personal and direct

11 knowledge of these issues. Again, on the broader sense of this, it lets

12 the -- it lays the indication that while Colonel Pandurevic was aware of

13 the decision to move these prisoners into his brigade zone, it lays the

14 inference that Colonel Pandurevic himself did not make that decision. And

15 now in retrospect, the fact that it appeared to be an extremely poor

16 decision at the time.

17 Q. Does this document give us any idea of precisely when Vinko

18 Pandurevic would have been aware of the operation to capture, detain,

19 transport, and kill the Muslims?

20 A. No, sir, I don't believe it does.

21 Q. Okay. All right.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I've probably got about 10 or 15

23 minutes, which we're ready either Monday or now.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could sit 10 minutes more and finish

25 your direct.

Page 4632

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Mr. Butler, could we go to the next exhibit, 541.

3 A. Moving forward in time now to September 1995, this is a document

4 that was, of course, seized out of the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade

5 by the OTP. And what this document reflects is that there has been

6 approval of 5 tons of diesel fuel for carrying out engineer works in the

7 zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps and that it will be delivered.

8 Of interest in this particular case is the fact that the fuel is being

9 directed to be delivered to Captain Milorad Trpic, whom I believe is, in

10 fact, Captain Milorad Trbic, and that there's a misspelling in the context

11 of the message.

12 Captain Trbic, of course, is a security officer with the Zvornik

13 Infantry Brigade, and that he is the one who is going to be designated to

14 be responsible for the accurate maintenance of records and engine hours

15 worked during this engineering project.

16 Q. All right. And do you have another exhibit on that same topic,

17 Exhibit 542?

18 A. This particular one, also dated 14 September, showing the normal

19 flow of orders from the commander of the Main Staff to the technical

20 services people to issue the fuel.

21 Q. And what do you think this fuel was used for?

22 A. Certainly the pact to putting an engineer -- security officer in

23 charge of accounting for engine vehicles and hours is unusual. We have

24 the engineer equipment and vehicle logs for September and October 1995

25 from the Zvornik Brigade, and unlike the ones in July, activity related to

Page 4633

1 these types of engineering processes is not listed in those logs.

2 It is my understanding, not only based on the documents but also

3 based on the continuing investigation, that this fuel was, in fact, used

4 to accomplish what we call the reburial process or the process of exhuming

5 the mass -- the mass graves, the primary sites, and distributing them to

6 only 20 secondary sites in and around the zone of the Zvornik Infantry

7 Brigade.

8 Q. All right. Mr. Butler, now let's briefly, to finish up, go back

9 to the workbook of the Zvornik Brigade, I believe where you -- if we could

10 go where you left off.

11 A. On page 18 of that document, I have highlighted a reference to the

12 notation of death of an individual. If you refer back to the 14 July 1995

13 report, the daily combat report of the Bratunac Brigade, it will reflect

14 the name of this individual as a member of the 4th Battalion being

15 killed. As I've noted in my previous testimony, the 4th Battalion of the

16 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade was also, in fact, the 8th Battalion of

17 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. And as much, as a matter of course, the

18 death of this soldier from Bratunac, even though it originated -- from --

19 since his brigade did originate from Zvornik is being listed as a matter

20 in the duty officer logbook. Just another piece to help confirm some of

21 the validity of the issues.

22 Q. Do you know what date this man was killed?

23 A. I'm sorry. I believe it's 15 July 1995, not 14.

24 Q. All right. And just in continuing your practice of identifying

25 some of the information, can you tell us where -- what page to go to.

Page 4634

1 A. Page 19 of the English language translation, where on 15 July and

2 a notation, Badem dispatched reinforcements. And this is at roughly 9.21

3 in the morning on 15 July 1995. Now, in this particular instance, we kind

4 of come back to being at odds with the intercept that was discussed in

5 detail, the reinforcements from Badem don't arrive until almost 2100 hours

6 that night. So there really is a question as to just what these

7 dispatched reinforcements means.

8 Q. The people that arrived at 2100 hours arrived on --

9 A. I'm sorry. We're on 15 July. Let me retract that. In this

10 context it's the individuals who are noted as arriving on 15 July in the

11 daily combat report. I got my dates mixed up. I apologise.

12 Q. All right. Let's continue to -- what's the next comment you

13 wanted to make?

14 A. Coupled with that, 15 July reflecting the fact that the men from

15 Bratunac had arrived at Parlog.

16 Q. What page is that?

17 A. Page 22 of the English language translation.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. On page 23 of the English language translation, there is a

20 notation that somebody or something should communicate to Popovic that his

21 proposal has been approved.

22 Q. Do you know what that is?

23 A. No, sir, I don't.

24 Q. All right. What's the next entry?

25 A. On page 24 of the English language translation, just following

Page 4635

1 that, a notation that Drago and Lieutenant Colonel Popovic are to report

2 to Major Golic early in the morning.

3 Q. Do you know what that's a reference to?

4 A. That may, in fact, be a reference to them wanting to check in on

5 the morning of 16 July as for what the situation is. But I don't want to

6 take it any further beyond that.

7 Q. Do you know who Drago might be?

8 A. In this context, I believe Drago is Drago Nikolic, the security

9 officer of the Drina Corps -- I'm sorry, the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. Further down on page 24, there's a request from the 1st Infantry

12 Battalion for 50 litres of oil, 20 litres of gasoline, 10 crates of 7.62

13 millimetre ammunition, and a line designated for transport of troops to

14 Kula. In the 1st Battalion sector, Kula is the school at Pilica where

15 Bosnian Muslim men were known to be held on 15 July 1995.

16 Q. Okay. What's next? And on page 25 we come to Mr. Obrenovic's 16

17 July designation.

18 A. Yes, sir. And again, just to highlight, and I won't put it up on

19 the ELMO, the notation about the individual who died at the hospital. And

20 then on 26 of the English language translation, now on 16 July, 0855,

21 Golic asked Popovic to call him, indicating that you can forget what you

22 asked for. Apparently there was a change in plans. What he wrote about,

23 indicating that whatever that proposal was, it was something that was

24 passed in writing. He knows what he's supposed to do, agreed with the

25 procedure from the boss at panorama 01. In this context, the boss from

Page 4636

1 panorama 01 should be General Mladic. Panorama, being the telephonic code

2 name of the Main Staff. 01 is a suffix we frequently see associated with

3 the commander, and it notes that this message was convoyed to Popovic at

4 0910 hours.

5 There is another notation at the bottom of this page, reflecting

6 that Beara is to call Panorama 155 at 0930. On page 27 of the English

7 language translation, a reflection of notice that on the 16th of July

8 1995, at 1050 hours, 35 soldiers from the East Bosnia Corps were sent to

9 the IKM. These soldiers are military police from the East Bosnia Corps

10 and are, in fact, noted on the 16 July interim combat report as one of the

11 few forces of reinforcements that did, in fact, arrive.

12 Q. The Panteri unit from the East Bosnia Corps are not a military

13 police unit, are they?

14 A. No, sir, they are not to my knowledge. It also notes receiving

15 that 1115 hours on 16 July it was reported from Zlatar that a triage of

16 wounded and prisoners must to be carried out and this was reported to

17 Beara. We see that in context with a previous intercept exhibit.

18 Q. And what specific reference are you talking about?

19 A. I'm sorry, say again.

20 Q. What specific word are you referencing to another intercept?

21 A. The context of triage of wounded and prisoners.

22 Q. And that an intercept on what date?

23 A. That was the morning of 16 July 1995.

24 Q. Okay. What else?

25 A. And further it notes that 1100 -- at 1120 hours on 16 July,

Page 4637

1 conversation from Badem, Colonel Jankovic called and was looking for

2 Major Malinic, and that that message was conveyed.

3 Q. Well, we know Badem and we know Colonel Jankovic. Can you remind

4 us who Major Malinic may be?

5 A. Major Malinic in this context is the commander of the Military

6 Police Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment.

7 Q. Do you have any documents or intercepts that indicate he's up in

8 the Zvornik area, aside from this?

9 A. No, sir. On page 28 on 16 -- I'm sorry, on 16 July, another

10 report from Zlatar that, "Our parcel is on its way. 30 will arrive in one

11 hour and another parcel is expected at around 1600 hours." In this

12 context, I believe what they're doing is they're now tracking the

13 reinforcements that are now arriving in the zone. I don't believe that

14 these parcels, in fact, refer to prisoners.

15 Q. Okay. What's the next point?

16 A. On page 29, the notation that at 1400 hours Popovic requested a

17 bus with a full tank and 500 litres of D2. The Zlatar duty officer and

18 Golic informed. And that, of course, corresponds to a previous intercept

19 exhibit.

20 On page 30 of the English language translation, and as we've

21 discussed in some detail before, starting in the late afternoon hours, a

22 series of messages from Zlatar that somebody is to go immediately to the

23 commander, send a written report on the current situation. And in this

24 context, the first individual is Mijatovic who is an operations officer at

25 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. This follows that now Colonel Popovic is

Page 4638

1 directed to go find Vinko in the field. And that he must report back to

2 the duty officer -- or that he should come back from the 1st Battalion

3 area where he is so that he can be sent on a task by Zlatar.

4 And again, as a point of reference Pilica and the Branjevo

5 Military Farm are located in the zone of the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik

6 Infantry Brigade. At 1705, it reflects 30 soldiers arriving from

7 Vlasenica. Again, this corresponds roughly to the intercept. Zlatar is

8 again asking whether they had a report from the commander.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I'm sorry. I understand that,

10 but we have been told that at 2.15, there is another function will be

11 happening in this courtroom. We have to leave this courtroom on time, so

12 maybe next Monday you could continue the direct examination and I would

13 like to thank the interpreters, the typists, as well as the technicians

14 for their cooperation.

15 And we'll resume at 9.00 Monday morning.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

17 at 2.01 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

18 the 17th day of November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.