Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5357

1 Monday, 1 December 2003.

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Well, if there is nothing else, then we'll have the next witness.

10 Who is dealing with the next witness?

11 MR. WAESPI: It's me, Mr. President. Good morning, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE LIU: I see. Are there any protective measures for this

13 witness?

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there are. He requested image distortion, but

15 he does not need a pseudonym.

16 JUDGE LIU: It's very strange. Does the witness fully understand

17 the purpose for the protective measures?

18 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. We explained it to him yesterday

19 and he said he's fine to testify under his real name.

20 JUDGE LIU: So could we have the witness, please.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness. Can you hear me?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

24 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

Page 5358

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, you may sit down, please.

5 Yes, Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.

6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Examined by Mr. Waespi:

8 Q. Good morning, Witness.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Now, do you remember that we met yesterday in my office?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And that we advised you of your right to remain silent and to have

13 a lawyer present if you wanted. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And you waived these rights and said that you were fine with

16 discussing your evidence without the presence of a lawyer. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you also told us yesterday that you would be willing to

20 testify today under the same conditions. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So today you're ready to proceed and answer questions without the

23 presence of a lawyer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you also told us that you requested image distortion and we

Page 5359

1 have been told by the Court that this would be granted. Now you said you

2 were fine that your full name appears. Is that correct? Are you fine

3 with your name becoming public?

4 A. Yes, I'm fine with that.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. So can you please state for the

6 record your full name.

7 A. My name is Cvijetin Ristanovic.

8 Q. And can you please spell out your last name, please.

9 A. R-i-s-t-a-n-o-v-i-c.

10 Q. And when were you born?

11 A. I was born on the 15th of April, 1949.

12 Q. And where?

13 A. In Kostijerovo village.

14 Q. And in which municipality would that be?

15 A. Zvornik.

16 Q. And what's your ethnic background?

17 A. I'm a Serb.

18 Q. Now, what's your profession and are you currently working

19 somewhere?

20 A. I am an operator of construction machines and I'm currently

21 employed.

22 Q. And where are you employed?

23 A. The 6th Oktobar Colopek Zvornik private company.

24 Q. Now did you serve in the JNA at one time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5360

1 Q. And when was that?

2 A. That was between 1968 and 1970.

3 Q. Now, during the war, and I mean the war between 1992 and 1995, did

4 you serve in the army as well?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And in which unit did you serve?

7 A. I was in the engineering unit of the Zvornik Brigade.

8 Q. And from when to when did you serve in the engineering unit?

9 A. I can't remember the exact date, but I believe that it was July

10 1992 and March -- the beginning of March or the end of February 1996.

11 Q. And what was your rank?

12 A. I was a foot soldier.

13 Q. And can you describe briefly your duties.

14 A. Yes, I can. My duties since I was in the engineering unit in the

15 unit that was in charge for the reparation of roads, building bridges in

16 villages, everything that had to do with the infrastructure, the road

17 infrastructure.

18 Q. Now, in June 1995, do you remember what you were doing in that

19 month?

20 A. Would you please repeat the month.

21 Q. In June.

22 A. June, in June I was -- at the beginning of the month I was in my

23 unit and then I went to Nisici to the separation line and that's where I

24 manned the line together with others.

25 Q. And what did you do afterwards, after you returned from the Nisici

Page 5361

1 area?

2 A. After that, when I returned from Nisici, I was given some time

3 off.

4 Q. Do you remember how many days that was?

5 A. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was six, seven, or

6 eight days. I can't remember exactly.

7 MR. WAESPI: Now, with your permission, Your Honours, I would like

8 to show the first exhibit to this witness and this would be 514, Zvornik

9 Brigade engineering brigade attendance roster for the month of July 1995.

10 Q. If you could look at the first page and then flip over to the last

11 page. Now if you look at number 9 on the last page, do you see your name

12 written there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if you continue along the line to the right, what's written

15 there?

16 A. It says the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd up to the 4th Nisici, the 5th

17 and the 6th as well.

18 Q. And that will be reference to your assignment at Nisici. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Probably.

21 Q. And then we have a few C's what could that mean?

22 A. It may be either a C or an S, I don't know, but I believe that

23 means days off.

24 Q. And then we have a cross on the 14th. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5362

1 Q. So that could be an indication that this was your first day at

2 work again?

3 A. Probably, I don't know.

4 Q. Thank you very much. If we could return this exhibit.

5 Now, do you remember the first day you came back from leave?

6 A. I don't remember exactly whether I returned on the 13th or on the

7 14th. I can't remember the date exactly.

8 Q. Now, did you go to work the next day after you returned?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And at what time in the morning would you do that?

11 A. It depended on my orders. My orders sometimes didn't arrive in

12 the morning; sometimes they arrived in the afternoon or at any point in

13 time during the course of the day. It varied.

14 Q. Now, on that day do you remember when you showed up at work?

15 A. I came to work at 7.00 in the morning. I was present in the unit

16 like every day.

17 Q. And can you tell us where that unit was, where did you report to

18 work?

19 A. The unit was in the Karakaj Omladinsko Naselje in the youth

20 settlement. That was the headquarters of the engineering unit.

21 Q. Now in relation to Zvornik, the town centre of Zvornik, how far

22 away would that be?

23 A. I don't know exactly. It may be 4 kilometres, maybe more maybe

24 less, but I would say about 4 kilometres.

25 Q. Is it north or south of Zvornik?

Page 5363

1 A. It would be on the north.

2 Q. Now, in relation to the road between Zvornik and Bijeljina, how

3 far away from the road Zvornik Bijeljina in Karakaj would the engineering

4 unit be located?

5 A. The Bijeljina/Zvornik road, maybe 300, 400, or 500 metres. I

6 can't tell you exactly. Anything between 300 and 500 metres, I would say.

7 Q. Now, was there a factory as well in that area where the company

8 was located?

9 A. Yes, across the road there was the Birac clay factory.

10 Q. Now, who was your company commander?

11 A. My company commander was Dragan Jevtic. There were other people

12 as well, but at that time it was Dragan Jevtic.

13 Q. Now, were you part of a platoon?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. And did it have a commander, your platoon, and if so, what was his

16 name?

17 A. Yes. His name was Damjan Lazarevic.

18 Q. And your platoon, what was the name of it?

19 A. It was road platoon, Putni platoon.

20 Q. Now, you said you came into work on that day, did you receive an

21 order from somebody?

22 A. Not in the morning, but it was before noon. I don't know exactly

23 when. I did receive my orders, but that was not early in the morning. It

24 was before noon, however.

25 Q. And who gave you this order?

Page 5364

1 A. As far as I can remember, the chief of engineers, Dragan Jokic

2 came.

3 Q. Did you know Dragan Jokic well?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Since when did you know him?

6 A. From 1992; I don't know from which month.

7 Q. Now, would you receive often orders from him?

8 A. Sometimes from him, sometimes from the company commander,

9 sometimes from the platoon commander. I don't remember whether this

10 happened often or not.

11 Q. Now, what was the order Mr. Jokic gave you on that morning before

12 noon?

13 A. When he came, he said that I and my machine were to go to

14 Orahovac.

15 Q. And can you tell us where Orahovac is located?

16 A. Orahovac.

17 Q. And did you tell you were in Orahovac you would have to go to?

18 A. I can't remember exactly. I believe that he said school, the

19 school in Orahovac or thereabouts. I can't remember exactly. I can't

20 really quote what the order was.

21 Q. Now, were you told what to do there by Mr. Jokic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, who else, if anybody, was present when you were receiving

24 this order?

25 A. As far as I can remember, there was the lorry driver who

Page 5365

1 transported a piece of equipment. There was another soldier, Risto Lazic,

2 and I believe that Slavko Bogicevic was also present.

3 Q. And who is Slavko Bogicevic?

4 A. Slavko Bogicevic, he was the company commander.

5 Q. I thought earlier you had said that Mr. Jevtic was the company

6 commander. Can you clarify that to the Trial Chamber.

7 A. No, no. I said that Slavko Bogicevic was in the command of the

8 company. He was not the commander, but he was one of the command staff of

9 the company.

10 Q. You mentioned the driver of the truck, what was his name?

11 A. His name was Milan Maksimovic.

12 Q. Now, what machinery did you take with you?

13 A. A G-700, that was the piece of equipment that I took with me.

14 Q. Can you briefly describe it to the Trial Chamber, how this piece

15 of machinery looked like.

16 A. It is a piece of equipment which has an excavating -- a hydraulic

17 piece of equipment.

18 Q. And what was it used for?

19 A. It is used for excavations, road excavations, canal excavations.

20 It is used for excavations and for loading the earth that is excavated.

21 Q. Do you know who owned this piece of equipment?

22 A. I believe that the owner was Zvornik Putevi, a company based in

23 Zvornik.

24 Q. Now, that morning when you took this machinery, where was it

25 located, inside or outside the compound of the engineering company?

Page 5366

1 A. It was within the compound of the engineering company.

2 Q. Now, if you could please be shown the next exhibit, and this is an

3 exhibit which Your Honours have received from the head of interpretation

4 unit. And perhaps if we have a copy that could be put on to the ELMO.

5 Mr. Ristanovic, can you tell us whether you see this G-700, as

6 explained by you, on this sketch, and if so, which one would it be. It

7 doesn't need to be accurate, but perhaps you can see something which is

8 close to what you took to Orahovac on that day.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you're pointing to the one in the top row, the one in the

11 middle, called backhoe excavator, and I think there is a note, Rovokopac

12 in B/C/S.

13 A. Yes, people call it different names. Some people call it backhoe

14 excavator.

15 Q. If we could return this exhibit and go to the next one. And this

16 would be P62. Can you tell us, Mr. Ristanovic, what this machinery is, is

17 that something similar?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Now, it's called BGH-600, and I understand there also -- there is

20 a model BGH-700. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what the difference

21 would be.

22 A. The difference is in the make or the producer. The BGH-600 is

23 smaller. It is a smaller backhoe loader. It has a smaller grab. It can

24 only contain 0.60 cubic metres, so that is the only difference, in the

25 size of the front grab. So it is the name, the make, the producer, it

Page 5367

1 depends on who the manufacturer of the machinery is.

2 Q. Thank you very much. If we could take that away. Now, on that

3 day I understand you didn't drive this vehicle to Orahovac but it was

4 loaded on to another vehicle. Is that correct?

5 A. Which vehicle are you referring to?

6 Q. The G-700.

7 A. I loaded that piece of equipment on to a truck, and that is the

8 piece of equipment that I worked with.

9 Q. Now, how long did it take for you to load this machinery on to the

10 trailer?

11 A. We never timed it. It all depends. Sometimes it takes 20

12 minutes, sometimes it takes half an hour, sometimes it takes even more.

13 It all depends on the place where you do the loading.

14 Q. And where did you do the loading that morning?

15 A. At the headquarters of the engineering company.

16 Q. Now, which route did you take to Orahovac?

17 A. From the headquarters, we came to the road leading to Zvornik. We

18 arrived that -- the crossroads in Karakaj, and then we continued on the

19 road towards Tuzla.

20 Q. And how long did the trip take in time?

21 A. I really can't remember. I don't know. I don't know how long it

22 took.

23 Q. Can you tell us a distance in kilometres?

24 A. You mean from the headquarters to Orahovac?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5368

1 A. I don't know exactly, perhaps 15 to 20 kilometres, something like

2 that. I can't say exactly.

3 Q. Now, you said you were driving towards Tuzla. Now, I understand

4 you didn't go to Tuzla but at that time you took a different route. Can

5 you indicate which one that would be?

6 A. Yes. When we came to the village of Orahovac, we turned off to

7 Krizevici. We continued along the road there.

8 Q. Now, you said that you had to go to the school at Orahovac. Now,

9 did you go to the school at Orahovac?

10 A. Yes. That road goes by the school in Orahovac.

11 Q. Now, did you stop at the school in Orahovac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And why did you do that?

14 A. When we reached the school, I think there were some trucks there

15 on the road trying to turn around as far as I can remember that. So

16 that's how we had to stay there, we couldn't pass.

17 Q. What kind of trucks were they, civilian, or military?

18 A. I think they were civilian trucks, I think so. I think they were

19 civilian trucks.

20 Q. Now, did you see soldiers present in that area where you had to

21 stop?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who were these soldiers? Were they from a specific unit? Did

24 you recognise any insignia or anything else which would indicate to you

25 where they were from?

Page 5369

1 A. As far as I know, they had camouflage uniforms on and I think I

2 saw military policemen there, too, members of the military police.

3 Q. Do you know of which brigade these military police were from?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, how many policemen did you see there, military policemen?

6 A. I didn't count them. I noticed that there were some of them

7 there, but I can't say exactly. I don't know how many.

8 Q. Now, for how long did you stop at that school?

9 A. Well, I don't know exactly now, perhaps four or five minutes until

10 we were able to pass.

11 Q. And then what did you do next?

12 A. We went on further. We continued our journey.

13 Q. And for how long did you continue your journey?

14 A. You mean in terms of time or in terms of the number of kilometres?

15 Q. Number of kilometres.

16 A. Well, perhaps another 500 to 600 metres or up to 1 kilometre.

17 Q. And what did you do there?

18 A. When we got there, somebody stopped us there and told us to stop

19 there and wait.

20 Q. And who told you to stop and wait?

21 A. I can't remember, perhaps the driver knows. I really cannot

22 remember who told us to wait there once we stopped.

23 Q. Now, were you stopped -- that location, what was that?

24 A. We stopped on the road between Orahovac and Krizevici there are

25 meadows on both sides, and there's water there too.

Page 5370

1 Q. When you say there was water there, what was it, a source, a water

2 point, a pump?

3 A. There was a water point there, perhaps there is a source there and

4 the water was tapped from that source or perhaps there was just a tap

5 coming from elsewhere. I don't know.

6 Q. Now, when you arrived at that water point, what did you see? Did

7 you see people there?

8 A. Yes. Yes. There were some soldiers there.

9 Q. Can you tell us how many you saw there.

10 A. I can't -- I wasn't counting. There were soldiers there. I don't

11 know exactly how many.

12 Q. What did you do next once you had arrived?

13 A. We waited there for a while, and then somebody came and told me to

14 unload the machine, to get this off the truck. And that's what I did.

15 And then they told me to leave it by the water point, and there is this

16 road that goes under the underpass.

17 Q. And an underpass under what?

18 A. Under the Zivinice/Zvornik railroad.

19 Q. Now, you said somebody came to tell you to unload the truck, do

20 you remember who that was?

21 A. I cannot remember with 100 per cent certainty. When I went up

22 there after having unloaded the things there, I saw Slavko Bogicevic.

23 Q. What did he tell you to do?

24 A. He told me to take the machine up there -- I mean after the

25 underpass, to take it through the underpass and then to the other side.

Page 5371

1 Q. Was it difficult to manoeuvre the machine through the underpass?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And why was it difficult?

4 A. It's narrow and low, so I barely managed to get through.

5 Q. Now, you described earlier that on the other side there was a

6 meadow. Can you describe a little bit more to Your Honours what you saw

7 there.

8 A. When I went through the underpass, I reached a meadow. There was

9 a meadow in front of me. Behind the meadow was a forest, straight ahead

10 if I remember exactly. On the other side, there was corn, maize, I can't

11 remember, but I know right in front of me there was a meadow and behind

12 the meadow was a forest. As far as I can remember, of course.

13 Q. Now, before we go into what you were doing there, did you remember

14 the time you had arrived at the water point and unloaded the machine?

15 A. I really don't know. I didn't have a watch or anything. I can't

16 give you the exact time. I really don't know. I don't know. I think it

17 was around midday or just after midday, something like that, I think.

18 Q. Now at the meadow, did you see any vehicles at that time, any

19 people around or was it empty?

20 A. Well, there was some people there at this meadow, there were some

21 soldiers.

22 Q. Now, what were you told to do?

23 A. I was told to go towards the forest with the machine and to dig.

24 Q. And who told you to start to dig?

25 A. I think it was Slavko Bogicevic who told me where -- or rather,

Page 5372

1 that I was supposed to dig there.

2 Q. And what were you supposed to dig?

3 A. There were four wooden poles there, and he told me to dig right

4 there, between these four poles, this area that had been marked in that

5 way.

6 Q. And can you tell us the extent, the size of this area, you know,

7 how wide it was and how long and how deep?

8 A. I didn't measure it. I don't know. In my estimate, perhaps the

9 width was about 2 and a half to 3 metres or between 2 and 2 and a half

10 metres. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. We just talked about how wide it was. Do you know how long it

12 was?

13 A. I didn't measure that either, but tentatively speaking, perhaps it

14 was about 15 metres in length, perhaps more, perhaps less.

15 Q. Now, did you start to dig at one time then?

16 A. I did. I did start to dig, and I asked someone how deep I was

17 supposed to dig. Now, I don't remember who it was that I asked.

18 Q. And did you get an answer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how deep were you told to dig?

21 A. From a metre and a half to 2 metres.

22 Q. Now, while you were digging, did Slavko Bogicevic stay there or

23 did he go away? Do you remember that?

24 A. I didn't see Slavko Bogicevic there after that.

25 Q. Now, were you able to finish the digging, or did something happen

Page 5373

1 while you were digging?

2 A. When I started to dig, I don't know how much time I spent digging,

3 somebody came up to me and told me to switch off the machine and to get

4 out of it.

5 Q. And did you do that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So what happened?

8 A. They told me to follow them, to go back, to step back from the

9 machine, to walk towards the underpass, towards the railroad. They showed

10 me where I was supposed to stand. They told me to go in that direction

11 and to stand there and to turn around.

12 Q. And by turning around, you mean turning away from the hole you

13 were digging?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what happened next?

16 A. I had my back facing that direction and I heard vehicles coming,

17 trucks.

18 Q. How many trucks was that?

19 A. I don't understand what you mean.

20 Q. You said you heard the trucks coming, do you remember whether it

21 was one truck or more?

22 A. One truck.

23 Q. So what happened?

24 A. When the truck came there, then I heard shouts, Get out, things

25 like that.

Page 5374

1 Q. And then?

2 A. And then soon afterwards, bursts of gunfire were heard.

3 Q. Can you tell us how long you heard these bursts of gunfire.

4 A. I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't say how long.

5 Q. Now, did you -- did somebody tell you to go back?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you do that --

8 A. To continue digging.

9 Q. And did you do that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So what did you see when you returned back to your machine?

12 A. Well, I saw corpses.

13 Q. And can you tell the Judges how many corpses you saw at that time?

14 A. I didn't count. I just caught a glimpse of them, and when I

15 realised what this was, I turned my head away. I couldn't watch, so I

16 really don't know how many there were there.

17 Q. Are you able to say whether these corpses of which you caught a

18 glimpse had uniforms on or were they in civilian clothes?

19 A. At that first moment, I didn't see that, but later on I saw that

20 they were wearing civilian clothes. At that first moment when I caught a

21 glimpse of them, I was so frightened that I had to turn away, but

22 afterwards I realised that they were wearing civilian clothes.

23 Q. Did you see blindfolds?

24 A. Yes, later.

25 Q. Do you remember the colour of these blindfolds?

Page 5375

1 A. I think white. I don't know, I think they were white, I think.

2 Q. Now, did you continue to dig the hole?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were you ordered to do that or did you just continue on on

5 your own?

6 A. I was told to go on digging after that.

7 Q. And then who told you that?

8 A. I can't remember. I really can't. I don't know. I don't know

9 who told me that.

10 Q. Now, while you were continuing to dig, were you again interrupted

11 by trucks or were you able to finish digging?

12 A. I think that they were -- that they interrupted me once again.

13 Q. And by "they," whom do you mean?

14 A. I mean these soldiers who were there, those who were carrying out

15 the executions. That's who I mean.

16 Q. And when you say you were interrupted again, did the same sequence

17 of events happen as you have just described to the Judges?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, were you able to finish the hole yourself, or did somebody

20 else take over at one time?

21 A. Another machinist came to work, another machinist was sent to

22 work.

23 Q. And can you tell us the name of this machinist?

24 A. His name is Milovan Miladinovic.

25 Q. Do you know of which unit he was a member of?

Page 5376

1 A. At that time, he was in the engineering unit.

2 Q. Of the Zvornik Brigade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, do you remember when he came, the time of the day?

5 A. I mean -- well, he came in the afternoon. I don't know what time

6 it was; that I don't know.

7 Q. Do you remember how far you were in digging the hole? Had you

8 almost finished or were you still in the beginning?

9 A. Well, I cannot remember right now. Perhaps I had dug half of it,

10 but I really can't remember now. It was a long time ago; it was eight

11 years ago. I cannot remember how much I had dug by then.

12 Q. Now, I understand from what you just told us that he came after

13 certainly the first shooting you had described. Can you confirm that.

14 Did Mr. Miladinovic arrive after you had seen that execution happening?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you would have -- he would have seen the bodies around the

17 hole?

18 A. He could have. I think he could have.

19 Q. Now, what did he do when he arrived?

20 A. Nothing. He arrived. He said that they had sent him there, and

21 he took the machine and started working. I went down to the water point

22 and I washed my face, things like that.

23 Q. Did he tell you who told him to come?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So Mr. Miladinovic took over the machine from you, he didn't bring

Page 5377

1 his own machine?

2 A. He took it over from me.

3 Q. You said you went to the water point, and I believe you washed

4 your face?

5 A. Yes, to have a drink of water, things like that.

6 Q. Can you describe us what you saw at the water point.

7 A. Well, nothing. There was some soldiers there, things like that

8 for the first moment or so. And then I saw corpses there as well.

9 Q. At what time did you see corpses?

10 A. I don't know. It was almost the end of the day, towards the end

11 of the day. I don't know.

12 Q. And can you tell us why these corpses were there?

13 A. Well, probably the persons who were driven there and then executed

14 there at that site, too.

15 Q. Did you know more about that, did you see anybody bringing these

16 corpses, or indeed, the persons before they were executed?

17 A. As I was there by the water point, at one moment or another, I

18 don't know, vehicles were coming back from the direction of Baljkovica.

19 And then this vehicle stopped there and they took a man out and shot him

20 right there by the road.

21 Q. How far away were you from the site where this person was shot?

22 A. Perhaps 20 metres, something like that.

23 Q. And what kind of vehicle was that?

24 A. I don't remember, I really don't. I don't know whether it was a

25 small TAM truck or a passenger vehicle. I really can't remember now.

Page 5378

1 Q. And you said that they took a man out. Can you describe the

2 person who took the man out.

3 A. I cannot. The man had a camouflage uniform on, but I cannot

4 describe him because I practically didn't see him. I just know he wore a

5 camouflage uniform, that's all.

6 Q. Now, you described this killing. While you were there at the

7 water point, did you witness other killings like that?

8 A. Maybe I saw this same kind of thing happen there twice, as I was

9 going there to the water point.

10 Q. Now, how far away from the road were these bodies?

11 A. Maybe 5 or 6 or 10 metres away, something like that.

12 Q. Now, by the end of the afternoon, are you able to tell the Trial

13 Chamber how many bodies you saw at that spot near the water point?

14 A. I didn't count. I really don't know how many bodies there were.

15 Q. Can you give us a rough estimate, was it 10 or was it 100?

16 A. I really didn't count them. I don't know.

17 Q. Now, I would like you to look at a sketch. This is exhibit P661.

18 Now, Mr. Ristanovic, do you recognise this drawing?

19 A. Yes, I did this.

20 MR. WAESPI: I think we need the second page, please.

21 Q. Do you recognise this drawing as well?

22 A. Yes, I made this drawing.

23 Q. Now, can you tell us the locations. If you could start with

24 the -- what you described as skola, the way you arrived from -- the way

25 you have arrived from the main road towards the school and then where you

Page 5379

1 were digging the grave.

2 A. I arrived from the Zvornik/Tuzla road. We forked off towards

3 Orahovac. We passed by the school and this is where we arrived by the

4 water point here. Here there is another road which goes under the

5 passage. And the underpassage is here. I passed through the underpass.

6 This is the meadow and this is the forest and this is where I dug out this

7 grave.

8 Q. And if you can again go to the right part where the meadow was and

9 I think you indicated where grave number 1 was, the grave you had started

10 to dig first. Can you indicate that again.

11 A. This is it.

12 Q. And can you tell us where you were standing when the first

13 execution was underway. You told the Trial Chamber that you had to go

14 away towards the railway. Did you indicate on that sketch where you were

15 standing.

16 A. Here. Here, I was standing here.

17 Q. That's where the little cross is?

18 A. Yes, thereabouts.

19 Q. And if you can turn to the other side of the railway and indicate

20 again where the water point was where you saw the bodies in the afternoon.

21 Can you tell us that as well.

22 A. The water point is here, and I saw the bodies on the other side of

23 this road, by the main road. And the second grave is somewhere around

24 here.

25 Q. Yes, we'll come to that in a moment, to the second grave.

Page 5380

1 Now, did you, while you were at the water point, did you stay

2 there the whole time or did you go back to where your colleague,

3 Mr. Miladinovic was working?

4 A. I went to my colleague. I took him some water. I wasn't by the

5 water point all the time. I was also up there where he was digging. I

6 went to fetch some water for him, and then I went back to him.

7 Q. Now, how long did you stay at the water point?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't go to the water point just once. I went

9 maybe two or three times. Sometimes I would stay a bit longer, sometimes

10 a bit shorter.

11 Q. Now, while you were at that water point, did you see other trucks

12 arriving who would go on to underpass, or didn't that happen?

13 A. When I was there, I believe that it happened once or maybe twice.

14 I can't tell you exactly. I believe that they did pass by.

15 Q. Now, did you return to Orahovac that night?

16 A. Orahovac?

17 Q. I'm sorry. Did you return to Zvornik that night?

18 A. That night we returned to the headquarters of our unit, to the

19 youth settlement.

20 Q. And how did that happen? Did somebody pick you up at the water

21 point?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who was that?

24 A. A vehicle came, a TAM, by the engineering company. The driver was

25 Milutin Bajic. He came. I don't know whether he came to fetch us or was

Page 5381

1 he just passing by and picked us up. I don't know.

2 Q. And who returned with you to the base?

3 A. I and Miladinovic and Risto Lazic as far as I can remember. There

4 may have been one or two other soldiers, but I can't remember their names.

5 Q. Do you remember the time you drove back to Zvornik?

6 A. I really don't know. I don't know how long it took us to get

7 there.

8 Q. Was it already dark?

9 A. Yes, it was already dark.

10 Q. Just going back to a last point of clarification, did you have

11 headlights on your G-700?

12 A. I don't remember, I really don't. It should have had headlights,

13 but I don't remember whether it did. I really don't know. It should have

14 headlights. Whether they were in working order or not, I really don't

15 know. I can't remember.

16 Q. While you were there on that first day, did you see any other

17 large machinery around of your type, your G-700, or any other type? Do

18 you remember that on the first day?

19 A. No. We were the only ones there.

20 Q. Now, when you returned to the base, did you report to anybody?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So what did you do, did you go home to sleep or where did you

23 sleep?

24 A. In the unit, in the base.

25 Q. Now, let's turn to the next day. What did you do on the next day?

Page 5382

1 A. I got up, had breakfast, followed the normal routine. After

2 breakfast, I waited for my orders to arrive, like every day.

3 Q. And did you receive orders?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who gave you these orders?

6 A. The platoon commander, Damjan Lazarevic.

7 Q. And what did he order you to do?

8 A. He told me to get ready to go to Orahovac.

9 Q. And did he tell you what you were supposed to do?

10 A. I don't remember whether he did or whether he didn't. I really

11 can't remember. I just remember that he told me that I was supposed to go

12 to Orahovac to work there.

13 Q. And what was your understanding at that time that you were

14 supposed to do at Orahovac?

15 A. What was I to think? I thought that I would continue digging,

16 what else?

17 Q. Now, what were your feelings when you were told you had to return

18 to your digging job after all you had seen the night -- the day before?

19 A. It was difficult.

20 Q. And why was it difficult?

21 A. I had seen all these scenes, dead bodies and so ...

22 Q. Did you go alone to Orahovac the next day or did somebody join

23 you?

24 A. I think we took the TAM, the TAM took us there, and the platoon

25 commander also went with me and two or three other soldiers. I can't

Page 5383

1 remember exactly.

2 Q. And these soldiers were from which unit?

3 A. I believe that they were members of the engineering unit. I don't

4 know.

5 Q. And do you remember the time you left that morning to Orahovac?

6 A. It was before noon, before noon in any case. I can't give you the

7 exact time but I don't remember. I didn't have a watch on me, so I

8 wouldn't be able to give you the exact time. I don't remember.

9 Q. Where exactly did you go to?

10 A. We went to the water point. The TAM left us there. We got off

11 the TAM there, and I went to switch on the engine on my piece of

12 equipment.

13 Q. And that was the same equipment you had worked with, and your

14 colleague Miladinovic the night -- the day before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now before we get into what you were doing, can you tell us what

17 you saw at the water point when you arrived that morning.

18 A. Not by the water point, but across the road, the road that goes

19 under the pass. I saw bodies and I also saw four or five or maybe six

20 people in civilian clothes wearing overalls or working clothes. And there

21 was some soldiers as well.

22 Q. If you could refer to the sketch, the drawing, you had made, can

23 you tell us where you saw these bodies and these people in civilian

24 clothes.

25 A. Yes, I can. The bodies were here and here, in this area by this

Page 5384

1 thing here. People in the civilian clothes were at the crossroads

2 standing on the road. And the army was also there, the soldiers were

3 there as well.

4 Q. And you just indicated to the area left of what you had described

5 as grave number 2, that crossroad I think a centimetre left of grave

6 number 2. How many people did you see there? You mentioned you saw

7 people in civilian clothes. How many were they?

8 A. Those people were wearing overalls or working clothes. There were

9 four or five or six maybe. I didn't count heads, again.

10 Q. And what exactly were they doing?

11 A. They were standing there. They were from the civilian protection

12 or from the public utility company from Zvornik. I really don't know who

13 they were.

14 Q. And did you see what the soldiers were doing?

15 A. They were standing there on the road, by the road.

16 Q. And you mentioned bodies. Can you tell us roughly how many bodies

17 you saw there.

18 A. I said that I didn't count them. I didn't pay that much

19 attention, so I can't tell you exactly how many they were.

20 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, Mr. President, that would be a good moment

21 to break.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at quarter to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi, please continue.

Page 5385

1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, you described to us what you saw when you arrived

3 on that second day in Orahovac with your machinery. Now, what were you

4 doing with this machine?

5 A. I went to the machine. I switched it on and I returned it under

6 the pass.

7 Q. And referring to your drawing, please, where did you drive it to?

8 A. I went under the underpass, and there is a meadow on the other

9 side and also at that place there were marks telling me where to dig the

10 second grave.

11 Q. Can you please look at the drawing on your left side, on the ELMO,

12 and again use the pointer and tell the Judges where you saw these markings

13 on that meadow. If the usher could assist.

14 A. Thereabouts, in this area here.

15 Q. That's just on top of this road, which is on top of the grave

16 number 2, that's where you saw the markings. And did you start digging?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you able to dig a hole or did something interrupt you?

19 A. I couldn't dig the hole. I started digging, and I don't know how

20 much I had dug out. And then the water hose broke and the hose started

21 filling with water, so I couldn't continue digging.

22 Q. So what did you do?

23 A. I stopped. I did not continue working. I asked somebody what I

24 was supposed to do, and then somebody ordered me to move to a different

25 site, to continue digging there.

Page 5386

1 Q. And did you do that?

2 A. Yes. I crossed to another side and I started digging there.

3 Q. And who was the person that somebody had told you to change

4 locations?

5 A. I can't remember exactly whether it was the platoon commander or

6 somebody else. I really can't remember who told me to do that.

7 Q. Now, this second location where you eventually started digging,

8 was that what you had indicated on your sketch as grave number 2?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you had described before the break that there were bodies,

11 and I believe it was in that area. Can you clarify again, at that

12 location, grave number 2, did you see bodies?

13 A. Yes, I saw bodies.

14 Q. Now, what area in metres did they cover, these bodies?

15 A. I don't know exactly. I couldn't tell you the surface that they

16 covered. I can't tell you exactly what the surface was. I didn't measure

17 it. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. Now, you were told to dig a hole, can you tell us the measure of

19 that hole.

20 A. Just approximately. I can't give you the precise measurements.

21 It was probably some 10 metres long and the width was the same as -- of

22 the previous hole. It may have been a bit bigger or a bit smaller. I

23 really can't give you the exact measurements, because I can't remember.

24 Q. And how deep?

25 A. Just like the previous one, between a metre and a half and 2

Page 5387

1 metres.

2 Q. Now, you described the size of this hole. Now going back to the

3 bodies you saw, did these bodies cover an area which was bigger or smaller

4 than the grave you were about to dig?

5 A. I really can't remember the size of that surface. I didn't pay

6 too much attention to all that. I didn't have a close look.

7 Q. All right. Did you see other machinery, engineering machinery,

8 present?

9 A. No, I didn't see anything but I heard a machine on the other side.

10 The noise came from the direction of the railroad.

11 Q. And were you able to tell because somebody told you or because you

12 heard otherwise what machinery that was?

13 A. I don't remember whether anybody told me which machine it was. I

14 heard the sound of the machine. Maybe somebody even told me which machine

15 it was. In any case, I could hear it working. I could hear the engine

16 on.

17 Q. Do you remember what machine it was?

18 A. No, I don't. I suppose it was a loader.

19 Q. And this loader, does it have a name?

20 A. Every loader has a name, T-200, T-160. They have different names.

21 Q. Now, while you were digging your grave, did your platoon

22 commander, Lazarevic, come to visit you?

23 A. I don't understand the question. When you say "platoon

24 commander," what do you mean?

25 Q. Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 5388

1 A. He was there all the time. He didn't go anywhere. He was there.

2 Q. Now, did you in fact finish your grave?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. And at what time in the day were you able to finish it?

5 A. It was sometime in the afternoon. I don't know exactly when, but

6 it was in the afternoon.

7 Q. So what did you do once you had finished digging?

8 A. I drove the machine to the main road by the water point; that's

9 where I drove it.

10 Q. And how did the scenery look like at the water point? Were there

11 still people around, as you had told us earlier?

12 A. There were troops there. There were soldiers there all the time.

13 Q. Did you see that these bodies were transported somewhere, put into

14 the hole you were digging, or didn't that happen while you were there?

15 A. I didn't see when the bodies were put there; it didn't happen

16 while I was there.

17 Q. Now, what happened next in relation to you and your machinery?

18 A. Sometime before dusk, we loaded a machine on to the trailer and

19 returned it to the base.

20 Q. And by base, you mean the engineering in Zvornik?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who returned to you -- with you to the base?

23 A. The driver, the driver who drove the trailer. I loaded the

24 machine onto his trailer and he was there. Whether there was anybody else

25 sitting with us in that truck, I can't remember, but he must have been

Page 5389

1 there.

2 Q. Now, when you arrived in the base, did you report to anybody?

3 A. No. As far as I can remember, no. I unloaded the machine and I

4 really don't remember having reported to anybody.

5 Q. Now, within the next couple of days, did you receive another

6 assignment to dig a hole?

7 A. I can't remember exactly, but I believe that on the following day

8 I didn't go anywhere. As far as I can remember, I didn't go anywhere. So

9 after I returned from that site, on the following day, I didn't go

10 anywhere.

11 Q. And how about the day after that day?

12 A. The day after that day, in the morning we got up, we had

13 breakfast. And I believe that a platoon commander, Damjan Lazarevic, came

14 again and he told us to load our equipment and get ready to go to

15 Branjevo.

16 Q. And did you do that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us the route you took.

19 A. We took the Zvornik/Bijeljina road, and then we took the road that

20 forks off towards Branjevo.

21 Q. Now, you said you loaded your equipment. Was that again the same

22 type of equipment you had used in Orahovac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So you called that, I believe, G-700?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5390

1 Q. And how was the loader transported to Branjevo?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. I mean, did you drive yourself to Branjevo with your G-700?

4 A. I was in the truck cab with the driver.

5 Q. And where was the G-700 in relation to the truck?

6 A. On this Labudica trailer. That is where heavy machinery is placed

7 in order to have the truck pull it.

8 Q. Do you remember the vehicle that pulled the truck, what type of

9 vehicle that was?

10 A. Well, I don't know now what the exact make was. I really can't

11 remember now.

12 Q. If the witness could be shown, please, exhibit P538. Could you

13 please have a look at the first page, and you see the type Mercedes 2626,

14 and it has a registration number M-5195. And if you can flip to the

15 second page and there is an entry on the 17th of July in handwriting, just

16 third from the bottom. If you can read, please, to the Judges that line

17 starting 17/7/1995.

18 A. The 17th of July, 1995, that's what it says. Base, Standard,

19 Branjevo, Baser [phoen]. Then number of rides, 1, 80 kilometres were

20 covered. Transport G-700. That's what is written here.

21 Q. So is it possible that this was the vehicle, this Mercedes who

22 pulled your machine to Branjevo on that day?

23 A. Possibly -- well, it's possible. I mean, I really don't know.

24 Q. Now, I would like you to look at the second drawing. I believe

25 you still have it in front of you. That's Exhibit 661. That was the

Page 5391

1 first page of these two drawings. If you can explain to the Judges this

2 drawing. Where did you come from when you arrived at the Branjevo Farm?

3 And I believe the usher is putting -- he has done already the drawing on

4 to the ELMO.

5 Can you, please, take the pointer and explain where you came from.

6 A. We came from Zvornik -- Bijeljina, from the Zvornik/Bijeljina

7 road, which is here. And somewhere around here, the road forks off to

8 Lokanj. That's where Branjevo is, here. I mean in this area, there is a

9 crossroads here. There's this road to Lokanj then Branjevo.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the end of what

11 the witness said. The microphone is not on.


13 Q. Can you repeat where you arrived with your trailer.

14 A. I said that we were on the Zvornik/Bijeljina road. Before the

15 place called Pilica, there is a road that forks off towards Lokanj. When

16 you take the road to Lokanj, then you continue along that road and that is

17 where Branjevo is. Branjevo is what the locality is called and then we

18 all got there.

19 Q. Do you know what Branjevo is? This location, what was it used

20 for?

21 A. Branjevo is a village, and this other locality was called

22 Ekonomija Branjevo, the Branjevo Farm. I don't know, livestock farm.

23 Well, a farm like a farm. Fruit, like an agricultural cooperative.

24 Q. Now, if you refer back to your drawing, you indicated that there

25 are two markings. You marked what appears to be buildings. Can you

Page 5392

1 explain us what buildings those were.

2 A. Yes. The workshop is there, the workshop of that cooperative, and

3 also there are some auxiliary buildings there, things like that.

4 Q. Now, when you arrived, did you see somebody else there?

5 A. In front of workshop, I saw a few men, probably the men working

6 there, they were wearing working clothes.

7 Q. Did you see besides these people -- soldiers?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, what were you doing after you had arrived?

10 A. When we got there, I unloaded the machine, of course.

11 Q. And what did you do?

12 A. I was told, I think by the platoon commander, that I should take

13 the machine there, and I think it was back there behind the building that

14 we did the digging.

15 Q. And what were you told to do?

16 A. Well, to dig a hole.

17 Q. Were you told what size this hole was supposed to be?

18 A. I don't remember that, whether they said so or not. They probably

19 did, but I don't recall these details, no.

20 Q. Was it about the same size of the graves you had dug the days

21 before in Orahovac?

22 A. Yes. Yes, around that, perhaps a bit bigger, perhaps a bit

23 smaller, but I don't really remember now.

24 Q. Now, if you again look at your drawing, can you tell us on your

25 drawing where the location of the grave was.

Page 5393

1 A. The grave was -- if viewed from the building, then it was on the

2 right-hand side of the building, so somewhere around here, as far as I can

3 remember. So this is the building, and on the right-hand side, that's

4 where the grave was.

5 Q. Now, when you arrived, did you see bodies there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And can you tell us on your drawing where these bodies were?

8 A. Yes. Over here, that's where the meadow is, so they were on the

9 meadow. It's like a small valley, and that's where the bodies were. I

10 saw the bodies.

11 Q. And how wide was the area which was covered by these bodies?

12 A. I mean, I really don't know. I really don't know how big it was,

13 the area. I did see the bodies, but I did not walk up to the bodies, and

14 I did not look at it in such detail to see how big an area they covered.

15 Q. Were you able to say whether there were more bodies than you had

16 seen in Orahovac?

17 A. I really don't know. I did not walk up there. From the place

18 where I was working, it was perhaps about 100 metres away, and I did not

19 walk up at all to see whether there were more or less.

20 Q. Can you describe to us whether it was smelling.

21 A. Well, I cannot say yes or no, because where I worked there was

22 also a barn and there was the smell of fertiliser. Now, whether this

23 smell also came or not, I really cannot remember that detail.

24 Q. You said you didn't go to see the bodies. Why didn't you go?

25 A. I didn't go because I already felt sick having seen all these

Page 5394

1 bodies, what I saw in Orahovac.

2 Q. Now, apart from your engineering equipment, was there another

3 machinery there?

4 A. Well, later on a loader arrived and went towards the corpses.

5 Q. I would like you to be shown the next exhibit. This is Exhibit

6 number 5, but before I show you that, can you describe the loader to us,

7 please.

8 A. Well, four wheels and in front there was this big grab, this thing

9 that is used for loading, whatever people call it, and in front there is

10 the cab for the driver and that's it.

11 Q. I'm sorry, it's Exhibit number 63. Do you remember the colour of

12 that machinery?

13 A. For the most part, these loaders are yellow. For the most part,

14 those that I saw. Yellow, I think that's what it would be called.

15 Q. And do you remember the brand of the machine?

16 A. I don't know. I just know it's a loader, but I don't know the

17 exact type. I did not walk up to it.

18 Q. Now, if we could show him Exhibit Number 63. If you can have a

19 look at it. Is the loader you saw on that day similar to this one?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, what did this machinery do on that day?

22 A. I saw it there. I saw it arrive there, but I did not see

23 specifically what it did there.

24 Q. And by "there," where do you mean? If you can go back to your

25 drawing and tell us the location where you saw that loader working.

Page 5395

1 A. Well, over here, this is where the corpses were, in this area

2 around here.

3 Q. But the loader was in the middle of the corpses; is that what you

4 are saying?

5 A. No, no. Next to it. It's a big meadow, so it was somewhere

6 nearby.

7 Q. And what was it doing?

8 A. While I was working, while I was digging, it just stood there. It

9 didn't do anything.

10 Q. Did you see later what it was doing?

11 A. No. When I finished digging, I returned the machine to the road,

12 and I went to the first houses that are there to get water. And I sat

13 there by the road, on the other side, and I could not see at all what the

14 loader was doing.

15 Q. Now, did you return to the base on that day again?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you remember the time you left the Branjevo Farm?

18 A. It was in the afternoon I think. I know for sure that we returned

19 before it got dark.

20 Q. And who did return with you, if anybody?

21 A. I only know the driver who drove the truck. Now, whether there

22 was anybody else sitting in the cab with us, I really can't remember that

23 detail.

24 Q. Did you take your machinery, your G-700, with you or did it stay

25 there?

Page 5396

1 A. We loaded it on the Labudica and returned it to the base of the

2 engineering company.

3 Q. Now, did you hear or did somebody tell you what happened to these

4 graves you had dug in Orahovac and in Branjevo?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now I would like to show you a number of vehicle logs of the

7 Zvornik Brigade in relation to engineering vehicles. And I would like to

8 start with Exhibit 515. And in fact, I do have the original with me which

9 can be shown to the Defence, perhaps first, and also to the Judges. It's

10 the original of 515. And perhaps a copy can be placed onto the ELMO.

11 Now, this appears to be the vehicle log for a backhoe excavator.

12 And in your language, B/C/S, it says Rovokopac, and it has a registration

13 number C-3117. And looking at it, you also see that the head of the first

14 page is typewritten, the type of the machine and also the registration

15 number and your name and another name appears there typewritten as well.

16 Now, there are handwriting entries on that page and also on the next page,

17 if you can flip over to the next page. If the B/C/S version could be

18 placed on to the ELMO.

19 Now, let me ask you to read what it says on the second page on

20 entry 14/07. Can you read that out, please.

21 A. Well, this is what it says: For whose needs does it work, the VRS

22 it says. The road covered. The base, Orahovac, and the way back. The

23 actual work: Digging trenches.

24 Q. Now, can you tell us what this machine was, this backhoe

25 excavator, or Rovokopac?

Page 5397

1 A. This is a type of backhoe excavator. Some people call it

2 Rovokopac, some people call it Skip, it depends on what people call it.

3 Q. On that day, the 14th of July, did you use this machine?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know who made these handwriting -- handwritten entries in

6 this document on both sides of this page?

7 A. I don't know about that.

8 Q. Can you give us an explanation why your name appears here on this

9 worksheet, giving dates you were working with this machinery, apparently.

10 Can you give us an explanation for that, if you have any.

11 A. I'll try to explain this to you. According to the establishment

12 of the unit and according to who the machines were issued to, I was

13 assigned to this machine, and this Milos Mitrovic. It didn't mean you had

14 to work with it, but this had to be known within the establishment who was

15 issued what machine. It wasn't strictly said that you would be working on

16 that particular machine, so that's my version of that.

17 Q. Now, just to clarify, this machine here, this Rovokopac, was that

18 different from the G-700 you were operating?

19 A. Yes, quite different.

20 Q. Now, let me show you a second vehicle log, and it could be

21 returned. The second log is Exhibit 516. And I again have the original

22 for the witness, if it could be shown to the Defence and the Judges first.

23 Just while we're waiting, if I can ask you something in relation

24 to what you said before, you said this machine we just talked about, this

25 Rovokopac, was different from the G-700 you were operating. Can you tell

Page 5398

1 us the difference.

2 A. The difference is that the G-700 has caterpillars, whereas the

3 other one has wheels. And this so-called Skip has two different grabs, in

4 front and in the back, whereas the G-700 has only one.

5 Q. Now, you just mentioned Skip. Can you describe this Skip machine

6 to us.

7 A. Well, Skip, Skip is a backhoe excavator, so it depends on what

8 people call it, Skip or Rovokopac. It's on wheels, on rubber tyres, so it

9 can only cover certain distances. It's a self-propelled vehicle,

10 therefore it does not have to be towed anywhere. It also has this device

11 for digging in the back. That's the only thing I can explain. And that's

12 the difference. Also, it is much smaller than the G-700.

13 Q. If you could be shown the exhibit we had discussed earlier, that's

14 the sketch which had about nine, I believe, machines on it. It came from

15 the interpreters. If you have a look at it, can you tell us which one, if

16 any of those, the Skip was.

17 A. This is it. Rovokopac. It depends on what people call it.

18 Q. And you just pointed to the top row, to the right of it. Now

19 turning to the exhibit you have in front of you, the original, can you

20 read the type of this machine?

21 A. Yes. Rovokopac, Torpedo, that is the make and type.

22 Q. Now, is that the machine you just told us on that sketch, the one

23 top and right. Is that the same machine?

24 A. Well, not necessarily. It's a similar machine. I mean, I don't

25 know. I'm not very good at these drawings. It's for the same purpose.

Page 5399

1 And in the back, they both have these loaders. So it's this Skip or

2 Bager [phoen] or Rovokopac, whatever people call them.

3 Q. Now, looking at this original exhibit in front of you, you again

4 your name and the name of Milos Mitrovic on it, typewritten. And again

5 like the previous document, there are a number handwritten entries on the

6 front page and also on the second page. Now, turning to the second page,

7 there again we have on the 14th July an entry, and I read it for you:

8 Base Orahovac return. And it says as activities: Digging trenches in

9 Orahovac, five hours.

10 Now my question to you is: Did you use this Torpedo excavator on

11 the 14th of July in Orahovac?

12 A. Not me.

13 Q. Did you see that machinery in Orahovac on that day when you were

14 there?

15 A. No, I didn't see it. It was nowhere close to me, so I didn't see

16 it.

17 Q. Now, this Rovokopac Torpedo, the one we are talking about which

18 you see indicated on this original, did your unit have one in its

19 possession?

20 A. Yes, it was in our possession. That's a machine that came from

21 the clay factory, and it was taken from there as required.

22 Q. And required by whom?

23 A. The engineering unit, the army, whoever needed it.

24 Q. Now, my last question in relation to this exhibit: Do you

25 recognise any of the handwritings in that document?

Page 5400

1 A. I don't recognise anybody's handwriting. I don't know who wrote

2 this.

3 Q. When you returned from details with your machinery, did you ever

4 have to fill in any forms?

5 A. No. While I was in Orahovac and there, I didn't have to fill out

6 any forms.

7 Q. Let's return to the next exhibit, and that's P521. And that's an

8 engineering log for the 15th of July. Please have a brief look at it.

9 Can you tell us who signed the document?

10 A. I don't know whose signature this is. It says that this was

11 signed by Dragan Jevtic, company commander, but I don't know his

12 signature. So I can't say for a fact that this indeed is his signature.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, if you look at paragraphs 4 and 5, can you read

14 them out to us, please.

15 A. Item 4: Work with BGH-700 at Orahovci. Item 5: Work with

16 ULT-220 at Orahovci.

17 Q. Now, is that consistent with what you were doing there while you

18 were present?

19 A. I said that I did work, but I worked with G-700. That's what I

20 said.

21 Q. And again for our benefit, what's the difference between a G-700

22 and this BGH-700?

23 A. G-700 and BGH-700, they are the same things, but they were made by

24 different manufacturers. G-700 is produced in a factory in Titograd

25 whereas BGH-700 is produced in Krusevac. And that's the difference. The

Page 5401

1 difference is in the make and in the manufacturer.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ristanovic. Now, just only a couple more

3 exhibits and then we are done. The next exhibit would be 522. If you can

4 look at the front page where we have the type, that's ULT-220. And can

5 you remind us what ULT-220 was, what kind of machine.

6 A. It's a backhoe excavator. It is a loader on four wheels and it

7 has a grab in the front. It has the huge cab from which the machine is

8 operated.

9 Q. Now, if you go over to the next page, the second page, and you see

10 an entry, 17th July, digging trenches in Branjevo. Is that consistent

11 with what you saw while you were in Branjevo, that there was machinery of

12 this type working on that day, or standing, as you told us?

13 A. I can't say that for a fact. Most probably that was that.

14 Q. And the entry just above, 15th July, digging trenches in Orahovac.

15 I believe you told us that you heard the sound of a machine. Would that

16 be also consistent with what you told us?

17 A. I don't know. I said that I had heard the sound of a machine.

18 Whether this was the machine, I don't know. I didn't go there. I

19 couldn't see from this side. There was an obstruction between me and

20 where the machine was on the other side, so I couldn't see it.

21 Q. Now, you had told us earlier that it was very difficult for you to

22 get your machine, the G-700, through the railway underpass. Do you

23 remember that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Now, if this ULT was present at Orahovac, as it is indicated on

Page 5402

1 this exhibit, do you think this ULT could have passed the underway,

2 underpass entry?

3 A. I really can't say whether it could have passed there or not. It

4 seems to me that it would have been impossible, because its cab is rather

5 high up. So I really -- I don't know. It's very hard for me to say.

6 Q. Was there another way to come to that meadow?

7 A. I don't know whether there was any other way to go there. I

8 really don't. Possibly there was a way or maybe not. I really don't

9 know.

10 Q. The last exhibit I would like you to have a look at is D12/3, and

11 it's titled: Command of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, dated 20th

12 December, 1995. A review of the engineer units. And if you go to the

13 last page of it, can you tell us who signed this document.

14 A. It says here Commander Vinko Pandurevic. I don't know whether

15 this is his signature. I don't know his signature, so I can't say.

16 Q. Now, if you look at paragraph 11, which is on page 3, that's a

17 list of killed and wounded people. Do you -- are you familiar with any of

18 these names which are listed there?

19 A. Yes, I am.

20 Q. Now, let me turn a page forward, that's page 2, paragraph 8. And

21 it's letter B, the heading is called inventory stock. There is a list of

22 engineering machinery. Do you remember these engineering machinery

23 available at your base?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. And in fact, when we go under C, we have a heading: War booty.

Page 5403

1 And we see again this Mercedes 2626, which we have seen a document

2 beforehand. Would that be the same vehicle?

3 A. Most probably.

4 Q. Okay. We are done with these exhibits. And I just have a few

5 more questions for this witness, a couple of minutes.

6 Now, you told us when you were digging the grave at the -- the

7 graves, in fact, at Orahovac, that it was very close to the road. Do you

8 remember that?

9 A. Yes, I do, the second one. The first one was across the railway,

10 it was behind the railway. The second one that I dug was very close to

11 the road.

12 Q. Do you remember, was there traffic on that road?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what kind of traffic? Military? Civilian? Or both?

15 A. There were both military and civilian vehicles. There are some

16 villages around there, and people were passing.

17 Q. Now, the grave and the bodies you had described, were they visible

18 for these people who were travelling back and forth?

19 A. At the second one, yes.

20 Q. Now, are you aware of -- or let me ask you a different -- were you

21 ever interviewed by the police or civilian or military authorities in

22 relation to what you were doing in July 1995?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And are you aware whether there was ever any investigation done by

25 your unit or by somebody else into these events?

Page 5404

1 A. I'm not familiar with that. I know nothing of that.

2 Q. And do you know whether anybody from your unit, the Zvornik

3 engineer unit, was ever punished by military authorities or civilians?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. And my last question would be: Did you ever discuss these events

6 with Mr. Jokic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And why didn't you discuss it with him? It was him who gave you

9 the assignment to go to Orahovac.

10 A. Nobody wanted to discuss this, obviously. Maybe because people

11 were afraid or for some other similar reason. I don't know.

12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Any cross-examination? Mr. Karnavas?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. This

16 witness calls for no cross-examination from us. Thank you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 Well, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. We

20 do have some questions for this witness, so we would like to take the

21 opportunity and use the presence of this witness here in the courtroom

22 today.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed, please.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

Page 5405

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the position that you

3 held in the engineering company. My information about you tells me that

4 before the war up to 1992 you worked in the engineering company in

5 Zvornik, which was a state-owned company. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. I worked in the engineering up to 1987 and not up to 1992.

7 And then I was in the waterworks company after 1992.

8 Q. So until 1987, you were in the engineering. And then from 1987 to

9 the beginning of the war, you were a machinist in the waterworks company

10 in Zvornik?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you try and help us with the following: Am I right in saying

13 that Milovan Miladinovic was also a machinist who you have mentioned today

14 in 1992 before the beginning of the war also worked in the Zvornik Putevi,

15 the state-owned company?

16 A. I suppose so. I don't know for a fact that he did, but I suppose

17 he did work there.

18 Q. Which machine did you have at your disposal? Which machine did

19 you operate in the companies that you worked for? Was there a BGH-700

20 there?

21 A. There was a G-700, yes.

22 Q. You've told us today that you can't claim for a fact that BGH-700

23 that you used in mid-July 1995, which state-owned company it belonged to.

24 If I try and refresh your memory, can you help us and tell us whether this

25 machine belonged to the Zvornik Putevi company, and that company was run

Page 5406

1 by Jokic?

2 A. Yes, I did say that this machine did belong to Zvornik Putevi.

3 Q. Thank you very much. That's why I wanted to ask you about the

4 engineering company, since Zvornik Putevi worked with this machine, the

5 BGH-700, was Miladinovic in charge of that machinery rather than you.

6 A. If there was a machine from that company in the unit, then

7 somebody from the company would be in charge of that machine, and that

8 person would work with that machine. And if that person wasn't there,

9 then it would be somebody else who would operate that machine.

10 Q. So I'm right in saying that in the engineering company,

11 Mr. Miladinovic was in charge of BGH-700 because he used the same machine

12 in his own company, in Zvornik Putevi.

13 A. Most probably he used it. I don't know whether he used it in

14 Zvornik Putevi; there's no way for me to know that.

15 Q. According to the travel orders, it transpires that you were in

16 charge of the Skip or the Torpedo as we call it here, and that's the

17 machine you were talking about a little while ago?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Let's go back to the part when you were talking about a date in

20 mid-July, on the 14th of July in the morning hours of that day. You said

21 that Dragan Jokic came to the engineering company and told you to go to

22 the school in Orahovac. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also said that Dragan Jokic didn't tell you what you were

25 supposed to do there. Am I right in saying that?

Page 5407

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At the moment when you left the engineering company, you didn't

3 know why you were going to Orahovac. You were not given a specific task.

4 Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying, bearing in mind the fact that

7 you were not in charge of that machine, the BGH-700, that Jokic gave you

8 the instruction to load this machine on to a trailer and take it to the

9 school in Orahovac without telling you what you were supposed to do next

10 with that machine?

11 A. If my memory serves me right, he did order me to load the machine

12 and take it to the school in Orahovac. I don't remember any other

13 details. That was eight years ago, or seven years ago when he told me

14 about that that all these things took place. So it's very hard for me to

15 remember every single detail of what happened.

16 Q. This is exactly what I was saying. It is understandable that you

17 can't remember everything, but you were given your instructions, and that

18 is to get to the school in Orahovac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And later on after having waited by the water point for about an

21 hour, you received further instructions, and that is to go under the

22 underpass and start digging. Is that true?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. The instruction to dig was not given to you by Dragan Jokic but

25 somebody else whose name you can't remember, but you can assume who it

Page 5408

1 was. Am I right?

2 A. Yes, you are.

3 Q. I will ask you to make a pause between my question and your

4 answer. Your answers are being interpreted and we may end up having a

5 problem because the two of us speak the same language, so please could you

6 make a pause before answering. Thank you very much.

7 And now I would like to try and clarify another thing that has

8 arisen. When you cross the railway -- actually, when you took the

9 underpass to arrive at that meadow, you didn't notice any other vehicle.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. Let's clarify something else. Is it possible you could not be

13 precise on that. Is it possible that Dragan Jokic arrived at the base of

14 the engineering company between 12.00 and noon or shortly after midday.

15 Is that possible?

16 A. I told you that I didn't have a watch on me. I didn't pay too

17 much attention to time. I believe that it was before noon. I cannot

18 claim that for a fact. I believe that it was shortly before noon. I

19 cannot be certain of that, however.

20 Q. Just one more question to shed some light on that situation. What

21 is the height of the embankment that separates the water point from the

22 other side of the railroad?

23 A. I didn't measure it, so I can't answer your question. I didn't

24 measure the height of the embankment, so I don't know how high it is.

25 Q. Yes, I understand you didn't measure it. However, is it

Page 5409

1 objectively impossible to see a piece of equipment on the other side of

2 the equipment. Would it be higher than any piece of equipment?

3 A. Yes, most probably that is the case.

4 Q. Thank you, Cvijetin. Then you said in the afternoon you were

5 replaced at this particular work by your colleague Miladinovic who was in

6 charge of this machine anyway. Can you tell us more precisely what time

7 he came in the afternoon?

8 A. Sir, I've already said. It was in the afternoon. I cannot say

9 whether it was 2.00, 3.00, 4.00, or 5.00. I really don't know. I don't

10 remember and I didn't have a watch. Tentatively around 4.00 perhaps, but

11 I really don't know. I cannot give the exact hour.

12 Q. Am I right if I say that Miladinovic at that morning was not at

13 the headquarters of the engineering company, but rather together with

14 Dragan Jevtic, commander of the engineering company, and another group of

15 members of the engineering company, he was at Snagovo, rather at the front

16 line?

17 A. I know that I did not see him down there at the unit. Yes, I did

18 not see him down there.

19 Q. Later on did you hear from him that Dragan Obrenovic and Dragan

20 Jevtic sent him there to the engineering company?

21 A. When I came, he said they sent me here.

22 Q. If I understood your testimony correctly today, Cvijetin, on the

23 14th practically you did not see a single other machine working in

24 Orahovac. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5410

1 Q. Can we proceed, Mr. Cvijetin?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This Trial Chamber had the opportunity of hearing the testimony of

4 two survivors who said that in the evening hours in their view, on the

5 14th of July yet another machine was seen, if I can put it this way, on

6 the other side of the railway, as compared to the water point where you

7 were. The question would be the following: Is it be possible,

8 Mr. Cvijetin, for this other machine to have come and that you simply

9 could not see it because the embankment is so high?

10 A. Well, sir, I said that on that day I did not see a machine. I did

11 not see any other machine at all. Perhaps it arrived after we had left.

12 I don't know. I really do not remember any other machine coming while I

13 was there.

14 Q. That is possible, Mr. Cvijetin, and that's why I wanted this to be

15 eliminated, that we do not have any dilemmas. And all of it for a reason,

16 to try fully to shed light on what Mr. Waespi asked you about, namely,

17 whether at any point in time as you operated the BGH-700 -- used the

18 headlights of that machine to throw light on the execution site of the

19 victims?

20 A. As far as I remember, sir, we had finished working before it

21 became dark. There was no need to use any headlights or lights.

22 Q. Thank you, Cvijetin. That is what we have been saying and we

23 wanted you to confirm this for us as a witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, it's time for the break.

25 So we'll break and we'll resume at 12.30.

Page 5411

1 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, please continue.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, we started discussing the 15th of July, the

6 morning of the 15th of July. As far as I understood you, in the morning

7 you went towards Orahovac again. Is that right?

8 A. Well, not exactly in the morning. Perhaps a bit later -- well, it

9 was before noon, but not early in the morning.

10 Q. Will I be right if I say that it was sometime after 9.00?

11 A. Well, perhaps, something like that.

12 Q. Perhaps this would be an opportunity to explain a procedure or

13 actually what happened in the engineering company in the morning. Will

14 you agree with me if I say that it was customary procedure to have a

15 line-up in the morning and then to have the flag raised, to have the

16 orders read, then the review, and then tasks were assigned. Am I right?

17 A. Partly you are and partly you're not, because during those days

18 when we were involved in Orahovac, there weren't any line-ups, because

19 there weren't enough soldiers. But those other days, yes, there were

20 line-ups.

21 Q. Precisely, Mr. Ristanovic. And will we agree that when the flag

22 was raised, Dragan Jokic as chief of engineering did that at the brigade

23 command, brigade headquarters, as a staff officer?

24 A. I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Was he, as a rule, at the headquarters of the engineering company

Page 5412

1 in the morning hours when the flag was raised, or was he, as a rule, at

2 brigade headquarters at that time?

3 A. I can't say. I think that sometimes he was there and sometimes he

4 wasn't, but not always.

5 Q. All right. Let's go back to the 15th. Upon arrival in Orahovac,

6 you said that you noticed another machine working and that you assume,

7 according to the sound, that it could be an ULT-220. Is that right?

8 A. When I came to Orahovac, I did not notice this immediately. I

9 took my machine to the other side of the road, and then after a while I

10 heard this machine working.

11 Q. Could you see specifically what this machine was doing?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And could you notice, Mr. Ristanovic, what the workers were doing,

14 those who you thought were civilian protection workers or employees from

15 the public utilities company from Zvornik?

16 A. For a while they were there, and then they went somewhere else. I

17 don't know if they went to the other side of the railroad -- I mean, I

18 don't know.

19 Q. Anyway, you did not see them, you did not know what they were

20 doing and what their specific work was?

21 A. I didn't know.

22 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Ristanovic, both on the 14th

23 and on the 15th, you stayed in Orahovac for as long as it was necessary to

24 dig the hole that had been marked beforehand. Am I right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5413

1 Q. So you, yourself, and your machine, and then together with you

2 Miladinovic as well did not take part in any other activity related to the

3 burial, or rather, the burying of victims. Is that right?

4 A. We did not.

5 Q. So am I right if I conclude that the burying of bodies in the

6 hole, and then the covering of the bodies with soil was done by someone

7 else, not members of the engineering company. Is that right?

8 A. I don't know that, sir. I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. And did you see anyone else in Orahovac, any other members of the

10 engineering company who could have possibly worked on the transfer of the

11 bodies and burying them in the hole?

12 A. I mentioned the persons who were present there with me. I didn't

13 see anybody else.

14 Q. And none of the persons present whom you mentioned, you did not

15 see them placing bodies in the hole or grave or burying them there. Is

16 that right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic. Can you tell me when you returned in

19 the afternoon, was that around 5.00 p.m.?

20 A. Sir, I said that I did not carry a watch and I don't know when it

21 happened, 5.00 p.m., 6.00 p.m., 7.00 p.m., I cannot give you the exact

22 time. I said in the afternoon.

23 Q. And if I understood you correctly, practically on the 15th, the

24 entire day, either in the morning or in the afternoon, you did not see

25 Dragan Jokic?

Page 5414

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you perhaps tell the Honourable Trial Chamber whether you know

3 where he was on the morning of the 15th?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. At any rate, on the 15th of July you did not see him at all. Is

6 that right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. As for the 15th of July, I shall try to deal with something else

9 that remains unclear and something that was brought up by Mr. Waespi

10 today. Mr. Ristanovic, according to the travel authorisations, the Skip

11 Torpedo vehicle issued to Mitrovic Milos and Cvijetin Ristanovic, on the

12 14th of July it worked in Orahovac. If we accept that what you said to

13 Mr. Waespi is correct, that you did not operate the Skip Torpedo, and that

14 you did not see it on the 14th of July in Orahovac, can I conclude that

15 the travel and work order is simply incorrect as far as that portion is

16 concerned, that has to do with the Skip Torpedo?

17 A. Sir, I've given my answer. I worked on the G-700 on that day. I

18 did not work with the Skip that day.

19 Q. And it's also correct that you did not see it at all, you didn't

20 even see anyone else operating it. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think that we have dealt with that now, and thank you,

23 Mr. Ristanovic. Now let us try to proceed with the chronology. On the

24 16th, if that is the 16th, but according to the chronology of events the

25 way you put them, you were practically not engaged on any particular

Page 5415

1 works. Am I right, Mr. Ristanovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And will I be right if I say that this machine, the BGH-700, on

4 the 16th was not used at all; it was at the engineering company?

5 A. As far as I know, no, it was not used.

6 Q. A few minutes ago during the examination-in-chief by the

7 Prosecution, you were shown document P521, that was the daily order of the

8 commander of the engineering company for the 15th of July. In it in

9 paragraphs 6 and 7, it is noted that the backhoe excavator worked in

10 Petkovci. In paragraph 6, the ULT in Petkovci. Mr. Ristanovic, I wanted

11 to put a few questions to you in this regard. During those days, in

12 addition to the BGH-700, did the engineering company have another backhoe

13 excavator except for this one and the Skip?

14 A. As far as I know, it didn't have any.

15 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, do you know that any member of the engineering

16 company received an order on that day to go and work in Petkovci?

17 A. I was in Orahovac on the 15th, so I don't know whether anybody

18 received any such order. I wouldn't know that.

19 Q. We know that you were in Orahovac on the 15th, however did

20 anybody, any of your colleagues, machinists, people who would be capable

21 of operating a backhoe excavator, did any of them tell you that they were

22 on the 15th in Petkovci and did something similar?

23 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic. Is it possible -- allow us this

25 possibility that here we are talking about a piece of equipment that was

Page 5416

1 requisitioned from the civilian sector and that was sent to Petkovci, and

2 that that machine was not from the engineering company?

3 A. I said I don't know anything about that.

4 Q. Very well then. Let's go back to Exhibit P535 which was given to

5 you; that is the daily order dating on the 16th of July of the engineering

6 company talking about BGH-700 that worked on the 16th of July in Orahovac.

7 If we accept that what you said is correct, that on the 16th of July that

8 machine was in the engineering company and that you're sure that on the

9 16th of July you yourself were not in Orahovac, would you then agree with

10 me that what it says in the daily order of the commander of the

11 engineering company is incorrect, is not accurate?

12 A. I told you that I worked in Orahovac on the 14th and on the 15th.

13 On the 16th, I didn't go to Orahovac.

14 Q. Yes. And you also told us that as far as you can remember, the

15 BGH-700 did not go to Orahovac on the 16th. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. We are just trying to draw a logical conclusion from that, which

18 would be that an order contained in the daily order issued on the 16th of

19 July for you to go to Orahovac on the 16th is not accurate, is not

20 correct. Am I right?

21 A. I don't know. On that day I didn't go to Orahovac. I personally

22 didn't go to Orahovac, the piece of equipment either, neither.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

24 MR. WAESPI: Just to clarify, I don't think this document has been

25 shown to the witness. I certainly didn't use it, Exhibit P535. And it

Page 5417

1 doesn't say that he was told to go to Orahovac on -- certainly on this

2 exhibit, and I think that's what Mr. Stojanovic had put to the witness is

3 saying that: An order was issued on the 16th of July for you to go to

4 Orahovac. So that wouldn't be what this exhibit is saying. And again, it

5 hasn't been shown to the witness.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, if you want to use this

7 document, please show this document to the witness so that we could know

8 what kind of document you are talking about, then you may ask some

9 questions along this line.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. If we can have Exhibit P535

11 on the ELMO, and I will finish with this question because I did receive

12 the answer that I expected.

13 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, let's bring this to an end, if you can follow my

14 drift. Under item 2 in this order it says: Work of the BGH-700 in

15 Orahovac. Am I right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Am I right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Am I right in saying that today you have confirmed to us that on

20 the 16th of July, this machine, BGH-700, was not in Orahovaci, but

21 according to you it was in the base of the engineering company?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And am I also right in saying that you personally, on the 16th of

24 July, were not engaged in Orahovac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5418

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic, I have no further questions about this

2 document. Mr. Ristanovic, I would like to ask you whether on the 16th of

3 July - or at all - you saw Dragan Jokic -- did you have any contact with

4 him on that day?

5 A. I don't remember whether I saw him or not. In any case, I did not

6 have any contact with him.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic. And now, let's go back to the part of

8 your testimony which talks about Branjevo. Let's assume that that was on

9 the 17th of July, 1995. You've told us that the commander of the road

10 platoon gave you an order to take the vehicle to Branjevo. Is that true?

11 A. I said that the platoon commander came and told us to load our

12 piece of equipment on to a truck and go to Branjevo. That's what I said.

13 Q. He didn't tell you what you were supposed to do there, in

14 Branjevo?

15 A. I don't remember any details, sir.

16 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, in addition to the piece of equipment that you

17 mentioned coming to Branjevo, and that was ULT-220, you said that you had

18 also seen some other people who were there. Can you please tell us who

19 else was there in Branjevo while you were working there.

20 A. There was the driver, there was the platoon commander, whether

21 there was anybody else or not, I'm not sure. I can't say that for a fact.

22 Q. Were there any members of the civilian protection or the public

23 utility company or locals that were engaged in the burial operations?

24 A. When I arrived, I saw some people in front of the workshop.

25 Whether those were people who were employees of the farm, of the

Page 5419

1 Ekonomija, I don't know.

2 Q. Very well then. Am I right in saying that in that part, in

3 Branjevo, your job was to dig a hole and to return immediately after that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It is then correct that none of you who were present at the moment

6 when you were there carried any bodies, buried any bodies. Is that

7 correct, Mr. Ristanovic?

8 A. Yes, it is correct.

9 Q. If I understand you correctly, your job was reduced to just one

10 segment, and that was digging a hole that had been marked in advance. Am

11 I right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, during the war years, were you ever in a situation

14 to dig any other holes where people would be buried before asanacija of

15 the ground?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. While you were in Branjevo, did you see Dragan Jokic arriving

18 there at all?

19 A. No, I didn't see him.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic. I just wanted you to help us with the

21 role of this other machine. Am I right in thinking that this machine did

22 not belong to the engineering company?

23 A. I don't know whether it belonged to the engineering company or

24 not. I didn't go up to the machine. I didn't inspect it, I don't know.

25 Q. During those days, did the engineering company have the ULT-220

Page 5420

1 machine?

2 A. I told you that machines were requisitioned as required. Whether

3 during those days such a machine was requisitioned from somebody, I don't

4 know.

5 Q. What you're saying is that machines were requisitioned from the

6 civilian sector as need may have been. May I then conclude that the

7 engineering company did not own a ULT-220, that if need -- if there was a

8 need, that machine would be requisitioned from the civilian sector?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic. Am I right in saying that the

11 requisitioning from the civilian sector was not done by the engineering

12 company, that it had to go through a higher level of command?

13 A. I'm afraid I can't tell you anything about that, because I am not

14 familiar with the way requisitioning was done. I don't know.

15 Q. Very well then. I'm not going to ask you anything about

16 requisitioning because you're not in the position to know anything about

17 that; however, I would like to ask you something else. You personally,

18 were you duty-bound to fill out any forms, any travel documents or work

19 documents?

20 A. I've already stated that yes, we were duty-bound to do that, but

21 we were not duty-bound to do that when we -- after having worked in

22 Branjevo. Normally, we would have to do that, but after having returned

23 from Orahovac and from Branjevo, nobody ever gave me anything to fill out,

24 so I didn't have to fill out any forms.

25 Q. So instead of you, who would have been duty-bound to do that?

Page 5421

1 Somebody else filled out the forms rather than you yourself?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic. When a machine is requisitioned from

4 the civilian sector, as we have described, am I right in thinking that a

5 machinist, as a rule, would accompany such a piece of equipment, a

6 machinist who normally operates such a piece of equipment?

7 A. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. As a rule, a machinist does come

8 together with the machine, if there is such a machinist.

9 Q. According to the travel orders, the ULT-220 was operated by

10 persons who were not on the strength of the engineering company. Are you

11 aware of that fact?

12 A. Sir, I never looked at those travel orders, so I don't know what

13 they say.

14 Q. Let me put it differently, Mr. Ristanovic. Will you agree with me

15 when I say that members -- that Veljko Kovacevic and Rade Boskovic were

16 not members of the engineering company?

17 A. Veljko Kovacevic would come to the engineering company here and

18 there, from time to time, and he would do jobs for the engineering

19 company.

20 Q. So they were not on the list of the members of the engineering

21 company because they only occasionally came to the engineering company?

22 A. I am not familiar with that matter. I don't know whether they

23 were on the list. I did not have any insight into those lists, so I would

24 not be able to tell you whether they were on the list of the engineering

25 company.

Page 5422

1 Q. You said you first met Jokic in 1992. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you please tell the Honourable Chamber what kind of a person

4 Dragan Jokic is, what kind of an officer he was, what kind of a colleague

5 he was?

6 A. I can give you my opinion, my personal opinion. I don't know how

7 other people saw him. To my mind, he was a good person, well-mannered

8 person.

9 Q. During those four years, did you notice that he expressed any

10 feelings of nationalism, of intolerance? Was he politically engaged in

11 that respect?

12 A. During my contacts with him, he never showed any such feelings.

13 My contacts with him were few and far between, mind you.

14 Q. During this war, did Dragan Jokic get rich in any way? Did he

15 misuse anything that was made available to him. Did he become rich due to

16 the misfortunes of his people?

17 A. I'm not aware of any such thing.

18 Q. Will you agree with me, Mr. Ristanovic, that Dragan Jokic, as

19 chief of engineering, was the person who conveyed orders from the brigade

20 command to the engineering company?

21 A. I don't know about that, who he got orders from.

22 Q. And finally, will you agree with me that on the 15th, 16th, and

23 17th, now I'm adding the 17th as well because you've already confirmed the

24 previous dates, practically you did not see Dragan Jokic either at the

25 headquarters of the engineering company or the execution site in Orahovac

Page 5423

1 or Branjevo?

2 A. Sir, I can confirm for the 15th and the 16th and for the 17th who

3 gave me orders, but I did not see him at the execution sites, either at

4 Orahovac or in Branjevo.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ristanovic.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this would conclude

7 my part of the cross-examination.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Any redirect.

10 MR. WAESPI: Just one or two points of clarification, if I may

11 Mr. President.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Waespi:

13 Q. Mr. Ristanovic, you were asked about the torpedo excavator, and I

14 believe you called it Skip or skipper. Apart from this torpedo skipper,

15 was there another machine you called skipper?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And which one would that be?

18 A. It's also a Skip, but a different make of a Skip.

19 Q. Can you explain us how it looked like.

20 A. Just like the Skip torpedo, except that the make is different, the

21 type is different.

22 Q. The second issue was you were asked about the machinery when it

23 came back to the base. Who fueled the machinery?

24 A. We put fuel into the engines. We got fuel there from the storage

25 facility of the company, and we put the fuel in ourselves.

Page 5424

1 Q. And was that done for all the machinery, also the one you had told

2 us were requisitioned from private companies?

3 A. I don't know. I don't know about that. I just know the machines

4 that I worked with. I don't know how the others got fuel.

5 Q. Did you account for the use of fuel which you had put into these

6 machines?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And how did you do that?

9 A. Well, you'd get orders to go and work somewhere, and then you'd

10 fill out the form, the effective hours of work, in accordance with the

11 number of hours that the machine actually worked.

12 Q. And did you use this form we have seen here or did you use any

13 other type of form?

14 A. An order is given a form for the machine and then it says what you

15 do and for how many hours. And then on the other page is the fuel, how

16 much fuel you were issued. And then you submit all of that, both in terms

17 of the hours and in terms of the fuel, all of that has to be taken into

18 account.

19 Q. Now, I've shown you a couple of forms and you said you didn't

20 recognise the handwriting, but were these the forms which you had used on

21 different occasions?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. WAESPI: No further questions, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Any questions from Judges? Judge Argibay, please.

Page 5425

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Yes, only one question and a matter of

3 clarification, Mr. Ristanovic. I believe that these machines are not easy

4 to operate and that you had to have a trained driver for the use of them?

5 A. Your Honour, that's right.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. When you said then that the machine was

7 assigned to you or you were the one who was in charge, but it doesn't mean

8 that you would be driving it at some point in time. Does it mean that

9 then when you were not driving the machine, that machine could not be

10 operated by anybody else?

11 A. Your Honour, if I was not there, somebody else could have operated

12 it, too.

13 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Who else, if you had to be a trained driver?

14 A. Your Honour, there were other machinists there, too. I was not

15 the only one who knew how to operate that machine. If I was off or if I

16 was away somewhere in the field, then they could be given this machine to

17 operate.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Can you tell me more or less how many machinists

19 were there at the engineering company.

20 A. Your Honour, as far as I remember -- I mean, I cannot remember

21 exactly now, but there were either six or seven.

22 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you very much, Mr. Ristanovic.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions? Yes,

24 Mr. Stojanovic.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon,

Page 5426

1 Your Honours, but I believe after this question that was put by

2 Mr. Waespi, there is a misunderstanding in relation to the use of fuel.

3 So may I just try to address this ambiguity through questions of my own?

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, if your question is in the nature of

5 clarification, you are allowed. But if you want to further cross-examine

6 this witness, it is not allowed. So I guess it's in the first instance,

7 so you may proceed.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is

9 quite clear. We have evidence here from the Prosecution tendered through

10 Mr. Butler that fuel for the BGH-700 was taken over from the logistics

11 unit of the Zvornik Brigade. Today the witness said that as far as he can

12 remember, this fuel was taken over in the engineering company. It is in

13 that sense that I would like to clarify this with the witness, whether the

14 use of fuel was under the logistics unit or the engineering company.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

16 MR. WAESPI: Well, I believe he answered the question as far as he

17 could tell. I don't think it makes sense for him to comment on what an

18 expert said.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, as far as this witness's knowledge goes, this

20 question is allowed.

21 Witness, you may answer this question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said that as of late we

23 had been getting that from the engineering, that was in 1995, and the

24 company commander would go there and get it and then bring it. So that is

25 perhaps clarified.

Page 5427

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honours.

2 Q. Can we agree that the company officer took that from the logistics

3 unit of the Zvornik Brigade, and it's not that the engineering company got

4 fuel on its own?

5 A. The company officer had to go and bring the fuel. Probably he is

6 the one who went. Most probably it was the company officer or the company

7 commander who went.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

9 Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Mr. Waespi, do you want to make some clarification on this point

12 by asking some questions to this witness?

13 MR. WAESPI: No, I don't, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 At this stage, are there any documents to tender? Mr. Waespi?

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there are, Mr. President. It's the following

17 ones: P661, that was the two-page drawings the witness had made. Then

18 the next one would be the memo from the head of the interpretation unit

19 with those nine drawings or sketches, and we would suggest that it be

20 assigned Prosecution Exhibit P354. Then the next one would be P62 -- yes,

21 all the other ones I'm told by Janet Stewart have been previously

22 admitted.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.

24 Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as our defence is

Page 5428

1 concerned, Your Honours, we have no objections to the inclusion of any one

2 of these exhibits.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

4 Mr. Karnavas?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

6 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

8 MS. SINATRA: I apologise to interject myself into this, but

9 Mr. Stojanovic couldn't discuss this and the Prosecutor brought it to our

10 attention that D12/3 which we have used in our cross-examination of Mr.

11 Ristanovic is only admitted into evidence in the English version and we

12 would like to introduce the B/C/S version also as an attachment to D12/3,

13 which is only in English at this point.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

15 Well, as for the document P661, we understand that it's the

16 drawings by the witness during the interview with the OTP, and there's

17 some descriptions of various places. I hope that it could be translated

18 into English in certain forms. So at this moment, the ruling of this

19 Bench is that the document P661 and the document P354 are admitted into

20 the evidence with the understanding that the minimum English translation

21 will be followed.

22 And Mr. Waespi, how about that document D12/3? Do you have any

23 objections for the B/C/S?

24 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President. In fact, we have now received and

25 used today a final English translation. And previously it was admitted,

Page 5429

1 the draft one, under this exhibit number. So point one is: We have no

2 objection to the B/C/S one; and second, if the final translation would be

3 assigned perhaps D12/3 bis.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour.


7 MS. SINATRA: If I might just ask. We haven't had a chance to

8 review what the Prosecution considers the final draft translation, and so

9 we would like to reserve the right to comment on whether the translation

10 conforms with our draft translation or not at some future point.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you have that right.

12 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Are there any documents that the Defence would like to

14 tender through this witness? Mr. Stojanovic?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I heard that the

16 OTP is asked to tender documents, that's why I stopped. We have used

17 exhibits that were already used and tendered through Mr. Butler, so we do

18 not have anything to tender at this stage, anything to tender through this

19 witness. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

22 your evidence. We appreciate it very much. When the usher pulls down the

23 blinds, we will send you out of the room.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 5430

1 JUDGE LIU: So, Ms. Issa, we still have 20 minutes to deal with

2 the next witness. Are there any protective measures for the next witness?

3 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour, there are not. Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

14 Yes, Ms. Issa.

15 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examined by Ms. Issa:

17 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state your name for the

18 record and spell your last name, please.

19 A. My name is Nenad Djokic. I was born on the 8th of November, 1984,

20 in Srebrenica -- 1974 in Srebrenica. I reside in Bratunac. My father's

21 name is Nedjo and my mother's name is Slobodanka.

22 Q. Thank you we'll get to your background particulars in a moment.

23 Going back to when you and I met the other day, you were given your rights

24 to counsel and your rights to silence. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 5431

1 Q. And you waived those rights and agreed to speak to us without

2 counsel. Is that correct, sir?

3 A. Yes, it is correct.

4 Q. And as a matter of fact, sir, you have agreed to testify without

5 the assistance of counsel. Is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. All right. Thank you.

8 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I don't know if Your Honour wishes to

9 caution the witness. I'm in Your Honour's hands in that regard. He does

10 have the status of a suspect, obviously.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe you have already done so.

12 MS. ISSA: All right. I'll leave it at that then, thank you.

13 Q. Now, you've indicated, sir, some of your background particulars.

14 I'm going to ask you whether or not you have an nickname?

15 A. Yes. My nickname is Neso.

16 Q. And I understand, sir, that you were a member of the VRS in 1995.

17 Can you tell us what unit you were attached to.

18 A. Yes, I was in the military police of the Bratunac Brigade.

19 Q. And who was your commander, sir?

20 A. A commander or commanding officer or leader?

21 Q. Who was your commanding officer?

22 A. In 1995, Blagoje Vidovic [as interpreted].

23 Q. He was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was commanding or your direct superior of the military police

Page 5432

1 in July of 1995?

2 A. Mirko Jankovic.

3 Q. All right. Turning then your attention, sir, to 11 July, 1995,

4 just to give you a bit of context, that was the day that General Mladic

5 walked through Srebrenica. Can you tell the Court what you were doing

6 that day?

7 A. I was providing security for the Pribicevac, that was the area

8 where General Ratko Mladic went through.

9 Q. All right. Then -- and the next day sir, turning your attention

10 to 12 July, 1995, where were you that morning?

11 A. I was in Bratunac, and after that I went to Potocari.

12 Q. And why did you go to Potocari?

13 A. I was escorting officers.

14 Q. Who were you escorting specifically, sir?

15 A. Momir Nikolic.

16 Q. And why were you specifically chosen to accompany Momir Nikolic to

17 Potocari?

18 A. It was by chance.

19 Q. Can you explain what you mean by that.

20 A. I was standing in front of the fountain in town. There were no

21 other policemen in the military police headquarters. He came to me and he

22 told me that I should go to him -- with him to Potocari. He ordered me to

23 go with him.

24 Q. And what time of day approximately did you arrive in Potocari?

25 A. It was in the morning, between 9.00 and 11.00 in the morning.

Page 5433

1 Q. Do you recall, sir, how long you stayed in Potocari that day?

2 A. I can't remember all the details. I can't remember the exact

3 time.

4 Q. Can you give us an approximate time?

5 A. I was escorting Momir Nikolic, and for as long as Momir Nikolic

6 was talking to the UNPROFOR, I was standing in front of the gate and I

7 provided security. Then I went to Bratunac. I had received an order to

8 accompany a truck on the way to Bratunac. I can't remember exactly how

9 long all this took.

10 Q. Okay. When you went back to Bratunac to accompany a truck, what

11 was the truck carrying?

12 A. Bread. It was carrying bread from the Bratunac headquarters to

13 Potocari.

14 Q. And who ordered you to go back to Bratunac to obtain the bread?

15 A. I received this order, but I don't remember who the order was

16 from. It was seven years ago, seven or eight years ago. It's hard to

17 remember.

18 Q. All right. And when you returned to Potocari with the bread, what

19 did you do?

20 A. I distributed the bread. I helped the driver.

21 Q. And how long did it take you to distribute the bread?

22 A. Anything between half an hour and an hour. I can't remember

23 exactly.

24 Q. When you returned to Bratunac to pick up the bread, did Momir

25 Nikolic accompany you back to Bratunac?

Page 5434

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --


3 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to object, but there is a way of

4 phrasing the question without leading the witness. Did anybody go with

5 you to Bratunac. That's a non-leading question.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could rephrase your question, Ms. Issa.

9 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour.

10 Q. You indicated you went with a driver to Bratunac. Is there anyone

11 else who accompanied you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. After distributing the bread, sir, what did you do in

14 Potocari?

15 A. I returned to the place where I provided security for Momir

16 Nikolic, and I waited for him in front of the gate while he was talking to

17 the United Nations, to the UNPROFOR.

18 Q. Aside from providing security to Momir Nikolic that day, sir, is

19 there anything else that you did?

20 A. I don't remember. I don't remember exactly. I must -- may have

21 done something else.

22 Q. Were there other members of the Bratunac Brigade military police

23 present in Potocari at the time?

24 A. Yes, there were.

25 Q. How many approximately were there?

Page 5435

1 A. A couple or maybe four or five policemen all together, that's

2 according to my estimate.

3 Q. And what were they doing?

4 A. They were also providing security. The military police provided

5 security pursuant to this order. We received an order to provide security

6 at that particular place.

7 Q. Who gave this order?

8 A. Our commander, Mirko Jankovic.

9 Q. Okay. And to whom were they providing security, the other members

10 of the military police in Potocari?

11 A. General Ratko Mladic was also there, and they just provided

12 security.

13 Q. Other than providing security for General Ratko Mladic, was there

14 anyone else they were securing or providing security for?

15 A. I can't remember. I know what I did. There was no way for me to

16 know what they did. I know what I did. I suppose that they also had an

17 order.

18 Q. Well, I'm asking you what you observed, sir. Where did you see

19 the members of the military police standing?

20 A. There, some 50 or 100 metres away from the UNPROFOR headquarters

21 towards Srebrenica.

22 Q. In relation to the Muslim population, sir, where were they

23 standing?

24 A. They were standing there. Muslims were also there by the road.

25 Q. And can you tell us, sir, who were the military police providing

Page 5436

1 security for, other than General Mladic?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. This calls for speculation. He's

3 already answered that he doesn't know what their orders were. Now there's

4 a presumption here that he was providing security for someone other than

5 General Mladic or the others. The gentleman has already answered that

6 question. She can pose it 50 more times, the answer will be the same.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's hear the same answer.

8 Witness, you may answer that question.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question.

10 MS. ISSA:

11 Q. Can you tell us, sir, who were the military police providing

12 security for in Potocari?

13 A. The group consisting of four or five people that I've mentioned

14 you mean? They provided security for General Ratko Mladic, and they were

15 standing there in a circle by the asphalt road where Muslims were as well.

16 Q. All right. And given that they were standing in the asphalt road

17 where Muslims were there as well, did you draw any conclusions --

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, it calls for speculation. The gentleman

19 has already indicated he doesn't know what their orders are. Now she's

20 asking him to draw some conclusion on the basis of them standing

21 someplace. This is clear speculation and the Prosecutor should know

22 better than to ask a question. Now, if she wants to lay some foundation,

23 if there is some foundation to be laid. Then she may be able to ask that

24 question. But then again that is something that this trial Bench can

25 reach a conclusion from. The answer that this gentleman may give.

Page 5437

1 JUDGE LIU: You may rephrase your question.

2 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour. But if I may respond to that.

3 The witness is a military policeman. He can certainly give us an opinion

4 based on his observations of his colleagues. That's what I was getting

5 at. I can attempt to rephrase the question and get at it another way, if

6 Your Honour wishes me to follow that path.

7 Q. Sir, do you recall meeting with me on Saturday as well as an

8 investigator where we discussed some of these issues?

9 A. Yes. We discussed some things.

10 Q. Okay. And you recall, sir, that we specifically discussed this

11 particular issue where I asked you who were the military police providing

12 security for. You remember that?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. To assist you, sir, in refreshing your memory, and I'm just going

15 to read this out simply because we don't have the B/C/S version, Your

16 Honour, given the time limits --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if that is the case, I am going to

18 object to the reading of this. Because if the gentleman hasn't been shown

19 the proofing notes, he cannot verify it at this point in time. In all

20 fairness to the witness, he should have been provided with a copy of the

21 proofing notes so that he could at least acknowledge that that is what he,

22 in fact, indicated. We had a problem like this with the Prosecution's

23 star witness, Momir Nikolic, where he refused to acknowledge several facts

24 that were included in the investigator's additional notes.

25 So in fairness to this witness, I think they need to have it

Page 5438

1 translated, let the witness look at it, and see whether he adopts what's

2 on the proofing notes, rather than using the proofing notes as a basis of

3 impeaching the witness.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we heard that these notes has no

5 B/C/S translations, so we see there's no problem to read the question to

6 this witness again in English and let the interpreter translate it into

7 B/C/S. We believe that the result is the same.

8 You may proceed.

9 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. This is what you stated, sir, just to see if it assists you in

11 refreshing your memory when we met the other day. Mr. Jokic stated that

12 the other members of the military police who were present in Potocari on

13 13 July 1995 were providing security for General Mladic, UNPROFOR members,

14 and the Muslim population.

15 Do you remember saying that, sir, when you and I met the other

16 day?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Does that assist you in refreshing your memory as to who the

19 military policemen were providing security for, other than General Mladic?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. What exactly is it that you can't remember, sir? What are you

22 referring to?

23 A. Well, I cannot remember. I cannot remember who they were

24 providing security for. I said they were providing security for General

25 Ratko Mladic and for that circle. They were on the security detail.

Page 5439

1 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that you also said that they were providing

2 security for the UNPROFOR and Muslim population?

3 A. Well, they were providing security. The orders that we got, the

4 military police, was to provide security, not to give any other type of

5 protection.

6 Q. And specifically, sir, they were providing security for the

7 members that you listed in the proofing session that you discussed with me

8 and the investigator on Saturday. Isn't that right.

9 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MS. SINATRA: I would like to object. He is -- First of all,

12 she's treating him like an adverse witness. We have not determined that.

13 Second of all, the witness has answered the question. He said he doesn't

14 remember and she continues to badger him with proofing notes that are not

15 in evidence and I believe it's improper impeachment purposes.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think there's a clear line for this

17 Bench to declare or for the Prosecution to declare a witness is a hostile

18 witness or not. I hate to use this word, especially in this courtroom.

19 But the Prosecution has the right to use that proofing note to refresh the

20 memory of this witness. I believe the Bench, the Judges who are

21 professional Judges could draw their own conclusions out of those

22 questions and answers.

23 Well, Ms. Issa, can you finish this question, then we'll break.

24 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour.

25 Q. Perhaps I'll just pose the same question again. Sir --

Page 5440

1 specifically the military policemen were providing security for the

2 members that you listed in the proofing session that we discussed the

3 ordinary day. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Well, I've said that they provided security for

5 General Ratko Mladic and the UNPROFOR base. And that -- I cannot say

6 anything else. I cannot remember anything else. I know what I did

7 myself.

8 Q. Didn't you also say, sir, that they provided security for members

9 of the Muslim population?

10 A. Well, they were there at Potocari. I really don't know what their

11 duty was. I know for myself. You could ask some of them to come and to

12 say what their duty was.

13 Q. Did you not say, sir, that that was an observation that you made?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, again, I don't mean to interrupt

15 here, but we don't have a tape-recording of this proofing session, which

16 brings me back to my initial problem that I have with this entire

17 procedure by the Office of the Prosecution where they have these

18 conversations, especially with a suspect, there is no tape-recording and

19 now we have Ms. Issa, in a sense, testifying as to what was said during

20 this meeting, albeit there is their investigator, and they can bring him

21 in, and we can cross-examine him. But that's part of the problem. And

22 also when you compound it, or we're dealing with the issues of

23 translations, I believe the gentleman has indicated to the best of his

24 knowledge what he said. Now she wishes to impeach him based on what she

25 remembered during that conversation. I don't have a problem with that if

Page 5441

1 I will get the opportunity, one, to review their notes, and two, I will

2 get the opportunity, one: To review their notes; and two, I will get the

3 option to cross-examine Ms. Issa who was a witness during that proofing

4 session. So I believe if she's going to continue on that line, I will

5 make that request that I be given the -- not just these proofing notes but

6 all the handwritten notes, and also that I be entitled to cross-examine

7 the witnesses that were there, because now we have a problem. We have no

8 tape-recording. And I would respectfully request that henceforth this

9 Trial Chamber make it a requirement that they tape-record all these

10 sessions where they're having these -- they're proofing their witnesses.

11 It doesn't mean they have to have them transcribed, but at least it's

12 there in the event they need to ask a question. And then, if they need to

13 use it, they can use it. That's my position on this, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, I think you have asked several

15 questions in this respect but the answer from this witness is not to your

16 satisfaction. Maybe it's time for a break. I hope that you and the

17 witness will think it over this afternoon and try to remember what's the

18 problem. Is there a problem on your side, Ms. Issa, or some problem with

19 the witness.

20 Well, Witness, I have to remind you that since you are here in The

21 Hague you are under the oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not let

22 anybody talk to you about your testimony, especially your testimony today

23 or tomorrow. Do you understand that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

Page 5442

1 And tomorrow I'm afraid we'll go back to that shoebox and we'll

2 resume at 9.00 in Courtroom II

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 1.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

5 the 2nd day of December, 2003,

6 at 9.00 a.m.