Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5697

1 Friday, 5 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 12.01 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Good afternoon, Witness.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Mr. Stojanovic, your cross-examination, please.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stanojevic.

21 As I was preparing for my cross-examination, we looked at

22 yesterday's testimony and we decided to clarify just a few things with the

23 witness, so I believe that my cross-examination will last much shorter

24 than I announced yesterday. Thank you.

25 Good afternoon, Mr. Stanojevic.

Page 5698

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Kindly help us clarify a few issues. Yesterday when you were

3 talking about your arrival in Kravica, you mentioned a machine that had

4 already been there. To the Prosecutor's question, you described that

5 machine. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were shown a photo which should reflect the appearance of that

8 machine and you said yes, that is the machine with a scoop. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Will you agree with me that that machine did not belong to the

12 engineers company of the Zvornik Brigade?

13 A. No, it didn't belong to it.

14 Q. In addition to yourself, on the day when you were in Kravica and

15 Glogova, was there anybody else there from the engineers company of the

16 Zvornik Brigade?

17 A. No. I was the only one there.

18 Q. Thank you, Ostoja. And I wanted to clarify one more thing.

19 Yesterday you mentioned the name of Rajko Djokic.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that you were also there with you [as interpreted] in

22 Bratunac on the 15th in the morning.

23 A. Yes, on Sunday morning that was -- no, it was on Saturday. Yes,

24 he was with me.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, would you please stop for a

Page 5699

1 while. It seems that my monitor has something wrong. The laptop is okay,

2 but the monitor is something wrong. I'm just afraid that we missed some

3 transcript in the monitor.

4 Well, should we wait for the technicians to check our monitor or

5 should we proceed, because you know, we have the laptop here and the

6 transcript is in the laptop.

7 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

8 MS. SINATRA: Excuse me. Your Honour, our laptop on this computer

9 is not working. It still just says 5th of December, open session, and

10 nothing further.

11 JUDGE LIU: I see. So I'm afraid that we have to wait for a

12 minute. But it seems to me that everything is okay.

13 So shall we proceed while the technician will come into the

14 courtroom to look at that laptop of the Defence team.

15 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.

17 Once again, this cross-examination is not going to take a long time.

18 Q. Let's go back to that day. We were talking about Rajko Djokic and

19 you confirmed to me that he was in Bratunac on that day and that he stayed

20 with you in Bratunac. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What happened? Can you help us and tell us where he was. Where

23 did he stay when you were in Kravica and in Glogova?

24 A. I don't know. I know that he was in the municipality. Where he

25 was on that day, I don't know.

Page 5700

1 Q. Can we then agree that he also was not either in Kravica or in

2 Glogova?

3 A. Rajko Djokic; no, he wasn't there.

4 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that Rajko Djokic, captain first

5 class, at the beginning of the war was a commander of a battalion, and

6 then, because of his advanced age, he was transferred to the civilian

7 protection?

8 A. I don't remember. I know that he worked in the civilian

9 protection.

10 Q. Do you remember that he was captain first class and reserve

11 officer?

12 A. Yes, he was a reserve officer. I remember that.

13 Q. Thank you. And one more thing, please. Am I right in saying that

14 in Glogova, you did not see anybody from the engineers company, none of

15 their members or machines?

16 A. No, I didn't see anybody. There were just two workers who worked

17 there.

18 Q. Thank you. I would like to take the opportunity to have -- of

19 having you here to ask you how long have you known Dragan Jokic?

20 A. I met Dragan Jokic on the 23rd of June, 1992, when I joined the

21 Serbian army. That was on the 23rd of June.

22 Q. Can you describe Dragan Jokic as a person, as an officer.

23 A. I can't complain. He was a good man. He was a good officer. He

24 was good.

25 Q. Did he make any profits during the war, or was he the person who

Page 5701

1 shared the destiny of his people and his soldiers?

2 A. Precisely as you put it. He hasn't made any profit. He has

3 exactly the things that he started with. He has nothing more than he had.

4 Q. Am I right in saying that his soul was pure during the war and

5 after the war?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions,

8 Your Honour. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Any redirect, Ms. Issa?

11 MS. ISSA: No, thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 At this stage, are there any documents to tender through this

14 witness. Ms. Issa?

15 MS. ISSA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. There are two documents,

16 and they are the two diagrams that were referred to by the witness, P669

17 and P670.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 Mr. Stojanovic?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no objections to the

24 admission of these two exhibits.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So these two exhibits are

Page 5702

1 admitted into the evidence. I guess there is no evidence to tender

2 through this witness by the Defence team.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

6 your testimony. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you

7 out of the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home. Thank

8 you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I guess there is no witness on the list for this

12 week.

13 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour. That completes the witnesses for this

14 week.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

16 Well, are there any procedural matters that the parties would like

17 to bring to the attention of this Bench? Yes?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing I can think of, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Nothing from the Defence?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Nothing in particular, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 Ms. Sinatra.

24 MS. SINATRA: I was going to try to handle this informally, Your

25 Honour, but since we have a few moments, I would like to mention that, as

Page 5703

1 far as I remember, the Trial Chamber did order that five days after the

2 last intercept witness our final reply to the Prosecution's motion to

3 admit intercept evidence would be due. Of course, five days after that

4 will fall right in the middle of the Christmas holiday. I was hoping that

5 the Trial Chamber would be home enjoying their family during this break,

6 and therefore would not be forced to read any documents from this trial at

7 that point. So I was going to ask that since it does fall right at

8 Christmas, maybe the Court would entertain allowing this to be filed after

9 the first week in January. But Judge Liu did indicate that he will not be

10 home with his family, so I understand he'll be here reading everything I

11 write. But that's my request is if we could just wait until after the

12 Christmas holiday since the whole Tribunal, as far as I understand, will

13 be closed down the 19th of December, afterwards.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Well, Mr. McCloskey, could you please indicate to us how many

16 intercepts are still not introduced and is going to be introduced before

17 the Christmas break.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the remaining intercept witness is

19 a completely different sort of intercept than the Court has already seen.

20 As you know, the -- this is what we refer to as the tactical intercepts.

21 The person that had responsibility for taking the tactical intercepts is

22 -- will be here, and he has a collection of those tactical intercepts.

23 They're very rough jotted notes. You've seen them, I'm sure you remember,

24 Mr. Obrenovic talking about the tactical intercepts where the two

25 engineers were mentioned. That's what this has to do with.

Page 5704

1 Because it has to do with Mr. Obrenovic and these two engineers,

2 one of whom we have actually seen testify, we thought it was important to

3 give you the full picture and let you hear about these tactical

4 intercepts. So this one person will testify about those intercept

5 collection and that intercept in particular. But it's a much -- these are

6 -- when we say tactical, as you may have seen from the witness summary,

7 these are soldiers in the woods with smaller radios, collecting different

8 sorts of radio communications than the fellows on the big mountaintops.

9 So it's really apples and oranges in terms of intercepts, but it's a small

10 collection that we've already heard about before, and I don't anticipate

11 him being on the stand for too long, really.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. But some of those intercepts are

13 also important to the Defence case, as I understand, and it may show the

14 custody or the techniques or ways to obtain those intercepts.

15 And, Ms. Sinatra, I think we have gone through the -- if I say the

16 most essential intercept witnesses already, and during which the

17 Prosecution provided a lot of intercepts. And during that period you

18 raised a lot of objections. And after hearing your objections as well as

19 the testimony of those witnesses, we gave you five days to provide us with

20 further objections if you have. We have to deal with those documents

21 section by section, or group by group, and it is our intention to make a

22 ruling concerning of the intercepts before the winter recess so that the

23 parties would have a very clear picture of where they are standing. If

24 some intercepts are not admitted into the evidence, the Prosecution still

25 has the opportunity before their case closes to call more witnesses to

Page 5705

1 testify on that particular intercept.

2 So, Ms. Sinatra, if you have any objections to those group of

3 intercepts, we would like to have your written submissions as soon as

4 possible so that we could render a decision on that. As for the

5 forthcoming intercept witnesses and intercepts, you may - you may - file

6 your objections if there is any before the resuming of this case next

7 year. Is that understandable?

8 MS. SINATRA: I just want to make it clear so that I understand.

9 What you're saying is that I have not filed a reply to the response of the

10 Prosecution's response to our objections to the intercepts. I have a very

11 short piece. I'm not quite sure when the date is due for our reply, but

12 you're giving us until the resumption of the trial proceedings in January

13 to finalise our objections? Is that my understanding of the Trial

14 Chamber's decision?

15 JUDGE LIU: No. I mean that we have to deal with those intercepts

16 group by group. I think for the first group, it's about the live

17 testimony of some witnesses here concerning with those intercepts. If you

18 did not file your reply, I hope you could file it as soon as possible,

19 because I believe that we have to make a decision before the winter

20 recess.

21 As for the forthcoming intercepts, you may file it at the resuming

22 of this trial in January.

23 MS. SINATRA: So, Your Honour, could I have a rock-bottom deadline

24 to file my reply. Could that be at least the 17th or 18th of December?

25 Would that be possible?

Page 5706

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, you have to give us some time to

2 read your reply. I give you another week.

3 MS. SINATRA: Another week from today?

4 JUDGE LIU: From today, yes.

5 MS. SINATRA: I just wanted to make it clear so I wasn't missing a

6 deadline. Okay, thank you. I'll try to take care of it, and a famous

7 Chinese proverb: When in Rome, do as the Romans do, so I promise I'll

8 take care of it.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have a similar proverb, but I don't know

10 whether this is Chinese or English.

11 Well, are there any matters that the parties would like to bring

12 to the attention of this Trial Chamber? I see none. So the hearing is

13 adjourned. We'll resume next week in the afternoon.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

15 at 12.22 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

16 the 8th day of December, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.